##VIDEO ID:mGlJLlctFqU## I'll talk to yeah appbody youe standedge of Al to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty justice for all this is planning Bo meeting of November 12th 2024 I hereby announce that this meeting is being held in accordance with chapter 231 of the open public meeting act proper notice of meeting dates has been given to the Mars newsby and Mars County daily record and posted on the bulletin board in burrow Hall this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and the Corum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times R call please Mr Mr Mrs Kelly yes Kelly here mayor pres Mr okay are there any comments from the public to speak on matters that are not on the agenda tonight Daniel Conway 3 Greenwood Road Morris PL Jersey uh just asking I wanted to ask about the meetings that are forthcoming there's a meeting scheduled I guess from a week from today is that accurate no Monday days 6 days from today uh is that meeting specifically for the current set of applications that are on the agenda be the objetive why uh we have two meetings in one month we can have as many meetings as we want in a month okay we have other matters to consider okay so will those be prior in that meeting other will the other matters that are not on the agenda tonight be prioritized in next meeting we'll have's the agenda you'll get the agenda be out day how many months in this year have we had multiple meetings I think this is the first time this is the first one many how many months this year you can raise your microphone May a little B I don't want to mess with this how many month the question was how many months this year have we had multiple meetings the answer I I don't believe we've had multiple meetings in any other month but there are months when we have no meeting it depends on what's on the agenda okay how meetings determined when when who decides the planning board decides as a as a whole generally with uh you know we consult with the applicant applicants and our professionals are there meetings to those consultations excuse me is there a meeting or there minutes to those consultations no there's no minutes to them they're usually telephone calls so telephone calls of the significant portion of the planning board to discuss when they have meetings with with or without the applicant have aocc you just created a sentence from something that didn't occur she did not say that please don't try to create something that been meeting with significant members of people that's not that's not what she said when you say so this happens please don't do that if you have a question do it but don't say so as if that was what was said respectfully there was an inflection and the inflection was a question which is there were members of the planning board on a call together the question not correct okay so could you clarify your answer for me please one second the chair can continue um with the give and take to the extent you want typically this is for comments if it's just going to be back and forth back and forth we're not going to make progress but if you want to go the back and forth we can my question is there a meeting to determine when the next meetings will be okay so how many people are involved in that is it something that should be made public no there's nothing that should be made public no not not just schedule meeting all so in your in your one of your comments this is a question you said it could be cons consultation with the applicants what did that happen here no so the applicate wasn't involved in any decision to have another meeting 6 days later just want to confirm that it's a question yeah I I don't know the specifics of it but I do know two two answers um the municipal Municipal land additional meetings can be um can be scheduled by the chair typically in consultation with one or two other members that's typically how it can be done the next week is the um New Jersey League of municip IP alties where all the municipalities in New Jersey go down Atlantic City and because there's one or two other applications that are coming down the road um and people many people in this board were going to be leaving early um if anything on the on next Monday the 18th was a consideration to have an additional meeting so this one this application could move along because we have others the board has other ones to consider so that additional me meting was scheduled the other one wasn't cancelled as it turns out because of significant public interest um this has gone on lengthy amount of time there is a there is always a a tension with when there are when there is significant and and don't grab on the word tension there's a significant issues to balance when there are lot there's lots of interest because the municipal land used la sets um time periods by which a board must act if it does not act a an applicant can ask that act if it doesn't then there's an automatic approval um because it's kind of geared the municipal ambul La is geared that if an applicant is going to invest money they have a right to move along their time periods to act so when there are things that slow the process the otherwise normal process down like a lot of public interest which is a great thing it's not not uncommon to have an additional meeting or two that's that's really kind of the thought process um that at least tangentially that I've seen it's that that's what it is is what it is could I ask that what is that time limit 45 days now that that's for completeness 90 days for the answer that can be extended at times can't can't demand that it be extended but they're each you know for the size of a the size of the site plan I don't have in front of me but the size of the site plan what's being asked for has some slightly different variations typically the the normal one is 90 days so sorry just CU I'm trying to understand just if I may add too there was a conflict where our traffic engineer could not make the 18th meeting we scheduled the 12th meeting because we knew he could not make that meeting then in uh um uh his plans have changed now he's available both on the 18th so there was an initial conflict there as well many many CL so I just so again because I'm I'm not generally involved in these things my question is when there is significant public interest is there a limit to how often or how long uh presentations testimony and public comment is is cut off at what time is it cut off how many days how many months you're your your question presupposes that there's a list of rules that says that this is the amount of time everything do say it has to be reasonable so every situation is different um there some courts will say no you should have gone to 3: in the morning and the applicant has the right to get an answer you might get another judge who will say no so you have to act reasonable every time there's no there's not a there's not a li it says it's 17 minutes per that doesn't exist so that presupposition of your question doesn't exist okay thank you hi Lisa schroer 97 Maple Avenue I understand there's three planning board positions with terms that expire at the end of this year that's not something that we would bring up at this meeting that go to the B I was just seeking an explanation for how residents could apply to become a planning board member I believe it's on the website but it's not a matter for us to discuss here seeing nobody no one else we will close that portion of the meeting um next we have correspondents and bills Cathy please yes I move that we approve the following purchase orders um the first one is number 202 42098 May Phillips price and gel for $2,262 the next one is purchase order number 2024 2058 to Michelle quick for $56 and the next one is purchase order number 2024 2097 to for Legal Services to maraziti Falcone LLP for $1,155 and the next one also purchase order 2 2024 20 56 again to Mar Falon LP for legal service as a retainer $57.50 that's we have a second second second okay call please Ken Mr yes Mr gria yes Mrs Kelly yes Mrs ster yes mrsy yes Mr bezel mayor yeah Frank yes do we have any correspond thank you okay next is approval of the minutes the minutes are the transcript of the U last meeting could we have a motion to approve the transcript of the meeting so move second second all in favor opposed abstain thank you excuse me I get first I got the mayor second okay thank you minor s committee do we have a report John master plan Review Committee right uh yes there's a report as I uh spoke last meeting the council uh had asked us uh for a recommendation on a zone change at 300 tab Road uh which is uh the island at the end of 53 and and Route 10 there and tab Road it's surrounded by roads uh to change it from the R2 residential to C1 Highway commercial it's uh approximately 2.2 Acres the committee which is myself Ron Kelly Maryann ster and Sue mclusky and our engineer Leon Hall and our planner Le Laney uh the applicant was there with their attorney Rosemary Dary uh and um and their planner and their uh engineer and the owner and uh we just uh their their the owner is Nick raphaelo Rosemary Darley is their attorney Matt kersen is their engineer and Alex Darley is their planner um we uh we discussed it um and I think all of us and fact I think all of us felt that it should be considered for a zone change uh when you go back R2 there that is the only Remnant that is left from the R2 Zone years ago uh route the spur of Route 24 uh was going to come through there and the number of homes in the area were taken by the state and removed and uh but the uh the uh project was abandoned and some of the other properties became uh commercial properties um so we are all we are all recommending uh to the plan to the full planning board to pass a resolution to request the council to consider changing the zones uh Liz elany has a has all you have all a plan uh report from her in front of you and you all have uh resolutions uh in front of you uh which uh hopefully we send it to the council and they can do either pass it or not consider it or not and uh we'll see what happens anybody on the planning board have any questions on that so if the attorney would read the resolution for those of you in the public your learnings one of the traditions of this board is that I read the resolutions of their entirety so you get to hear this one resolution pursuant to Municipal land use law in support of requested zone change of Bo 101.1 not 2.01 from R2 to C1 whereas the governing body of the burough of moris PLS is adopted by ordinance a procedure for the owners of property located within the burrow to request a change of the zoning of applicable property and whereas 300 tab LLC owner owns property located at 300 Taber Road designated as block 101.1 lock 2.01 property and whereas owner has submitted a request for zone change of the property from R2 C1 and whereas the board has reviewed the request supporting documentation and is familiar with the property and whereas the property is constrained with certain physical limitations and RightWay constraints which make it difficult to develop the property in conformance with R2 Zone standards and whereas the property is adjacent to the C1 Zone and could more easily be developed pursuant to the C1 standards in a manner consistent with the adjacent C1 Zone and in a a manner beneficial to the buau and whereas a change in zoning from R2 to C1 for the property would promote several purposes of zoning as set forth in the municipal land use law mjsa 40 col 55 d-1 at SEC and whereas the board has reviewed um the request and seeks to recommend such zone change to the governing body of the burough of Morris PLS now therefore via resolved by the planning board the burrow of Morris Plains in the county of Morris and state of New Jersey on this 12th day of November 2024 as follows one following a review of the request for zone change for block 10.01 block 2.01 and comments of the buau planner at the meeting at the meeting the planning board finds and determines that said request for zone change would promote purposes of zoning and benefit the buau and recommends that the burrow favorably consider the re ested zone change of zone two this resolution shall constitute the report and recommendation of the planning board and the board secretary is directed to deliver a certified copy hereof to the burough clerk within 5 days of the date hereof three this resolution shall take effect ased by La I'll move that resolution hear I'll move the resolution I'll second we have aoll please yes Mr yes Mrs Kelly yes Mr St yes M yes Mr yes mayor yes yes and I remind everyone that the if if the council considers this they would have to introduce an ordinance and subsequently have a public hearing thank you okay moving on is there any new business old business okay we'll start with the application p1- 24d USA what we're going to do is we're going to uh probably go till around 9:00 take a little break and we'll see where we are at about 10:30 and we'll see what happens so Mr actually just before we start um where we at where we ended last uh month last meeting was there were a few follow-up questions on the two exhibits from the engineer everybody that ask questions you're supposed to ask one so please don't come again um you're going to have chance their next witness is the traffic engineer which I going to presume will'll be lots of questions um but if anybody who didn't have a question followup exhibit of the the engineer n those um if there are none then it would be handed once again to the applicant for the next witness but that's really all thank you m thank you Mr chairwoman um I guess I would ask the the public um are there any other followup questions for Mr DTE because we would like to call our traffic expert uh now to get him started okay and this goes to the two exhibits that want to move around so we did real well that last I had some questions that I had started to go into on the first round you so I I started sorry oh Tom battes b a t t a g l i e s e Toler so I had started to ask some questions the last time about the parking lot uh spacing and Mr bolo asked that I reserve those for after your update so that's what I'm trying to focus on here so I wanted to go back with the delivery truck um he mentioned would be scheduled during off peak hours between the brushes of breakfast and lunch and lunch and dinner so the qu question I have is what happens when the delivery truck is late due to traffic or other delays because in your update you were showing where the the truck would park um it is there a safety concern or lack of space issue if the park in the parking lot if the truck arrives during peak hours it's delayed in traffic or whatever you know might cause it to be delayed no no concern there's a delay as I noted last time the site can still be circulated if there's a delivery truck B site okay can you show I don't know if you can bring the map up but if if the parking is filled because I I recall that you were utilizing parking spaces for the the truck no so this is again exhibit A6 I had up on the screen last meetings so the delivery truck remains within the circulation aisles uh at all times and the middle there isn't that where the truck you would you said could park along the back spaces there so if those SPAC were occupied during PK hours I I stated that the truck would be located in front of the trash Corral uh within the the drive AIS and it would potentially it would block uh the three bases closest to the trash barel so if there was cars park there it would be temporarily blocked while the delivered truck is on site okay um can we have a just have a minute please you know I hate to do this to you again but we do have a new exhibit that shows where it's parked our traffic experts going to be showing that okay all right and he's going to walk you through I should Reserve all these questions deal with yeah yes and does that also go into so anything related to the the space of the lot is now on the traffic no no but that exhibit showing where the um truck is coming in where it's going to park that is a new exhibit that we've created and that's going to be handled by Mr per okay so if I have questions about buses for instance that weren't answered the last time would that also be the traffic yes um will the will the delivery truck when it's parked there be idling um due to refrigerated shipment on board no it will not be okay all right then I I just have one other question um it doesn't it's a followup to um a question that I asked last time that you modified your answer to when another res came up afterwards so and this dealt with um this dealt with um the question around whether you designed McDonald's in a downtown immediately adjacent to residences and you gave the uh the example of Faron initially and then later modified that to be Bon on Broadway but when I look at Bon and Broadway it appears there's not a sing any single family in the area and the only residences are Apartments over the commercial shops and a dense urban center that surrounds all size of the McDonald's so as that also does not appear to be comparable to moris plane situation do you have an example that designed that is truly comparable with our downtown and immediate surrounding residential area you um first there are single family homes in the immed area of the Bon site um that would be the most downtown design out for sure uh we also worked on the 63rd Street Band site which has residential behind it um I mean when you look at the Google Maps and f that there are no single family residents at least immediately adjacent are you talking like a few blocks back or directly across the street they s they're multistory but they are SC okay so that's still what you're using as a representing examp okay thank you last w r o n o w i c z 113 press new westest I just questions to the prev gentlemen and to your uh previous statement um so the question was will the truck be idling but for refrigeration how will the refrigeration be maintained so the units on the trucks my understanding have a battery back up for when they are uh turned off so it's a bad it's not U potentially um a generat running propane that again I'm not the delivery company I understand that they have battery back up and if they have generator backup because the generator backups um do not have to be regulated the same way as the truck as far as their pollution and noise pollution and if anybody has been to Arthur's Bakery uh Anthony's Bakery with a lot of them are parked near Highway 287 very loud um so a single truck would be potentially B is that corre I do not you do not know that as an expert I'm not an expert in the refrigeration Vehicles now we will abide by all local ordinances and state ordinances on sound that's that's great to hear um and then um you often um to follow up on the residential installation versus commercial at some point you mentioned that the uh the oil track will be 90% efficient what was that the oil tra in the fry not the but filters the exhaust filters exhaust yes correct because they're already have been approved for the I believe it was the U chip Chipotle Chipotle chip and again that's that's not a residential area so my question is is that anate Lev fire protection for the wood structures of the residential homes near or adjacent to the to the building will certainly be designed to comply with the the fire regulations and fire code there 90% to me as a chemist seems like 2 hours out a day it will be essentially right equivalent to two hours of being unfiltered that's a lot of uh deposits on the roofs potential structures no so I mean the unit itself is T efficiency rating um based on the filters and the facilities that has inside so it's operational at all times we did have a fire even one of the restaurants in norest plan local restaurants could be related to that maybe not but it's important to have safety the kitchens do comply with will comply with the fire Cod again they have another question I had about the GRE tra yes right so can you why do you need the gree Tru and how is Greece for oil replaced in French fires mam chairwoman I I know we said that the questions go to the two new exhibits and we're going way back on on stuff that we cover hours and hours ago and I I I understand you have concerns about Greece whatever but I mean we do we did ask that the questions go to the exhibits um so um my question is then on the Ro exit right so um that road currently is that road currently uh zone for trucks of 18 Millers yes deliveries are permitted on and then so but the typical deliver is in the residential a will be um very very rare as opposed to this regular daily and my question is if there is a I think there was a comment at some point that the roads were planned in 1920s if there's a 's the word a catalytic or catastrophic rather damage to the road who be responsible for that as far as I think this is a better that's a good question for the tra traffic expert who's going to be coming up next he's going to be covering that Mr Parago right there okay um I guess hold make questions that thank you joea a m o r o a 20 Dayton Road can you refresh my memory of what the exhibits were allowed to ask you about sure uh it's the one that's up on the screen the delivery exhibit and the site plan render which is the updated plans that were filed uh with the town to over bring that up here are you going to be presenting the other plan sheets the demolition plan perhaps I did not pres it no is anyone going to be presenting the demolition plan no no all the plans that were filed are on file and they're all part of the application and all the professionals issued comment letters on the plans and so if there was an issue with the Demolition plan we would have addressed it here there was no issues as far as we know are you only presenting plans that our professionals chose to comment on no why AR you presenting the demolition plan because there's nothing signicant material about it I can see where you going here if you want to ask questions about the demolition plan I guess you can you said before you're not allowed to ask questions that is not accurate we're asking people to limit their questions to the two exhibits because we would like to get to the traffic expert who I think a lot of people here uh would like to ask questions of uh if you have a specific question on the demolition plan go ahead I'm anxious to hear it are we able to view the demolition plan I not have it open in front why don't we have the question tell us your question first and see if you can answer it we need to view the plan demolution L3 can you zoom in on the daon road disturbance why does this plan sheet not agree with the site plan as far as the disturbance where the realigned Dayton Road driveway goes are you asking why the plan hasn't been updated yet to reflect the new driveway is that the question because it will be updated can you zoom in on the revision date no I see the issue sorry this is revision one again dated October 7th so the detach which in the right away represents the area disturbance uh you are correct that should be extended further to the west to align with the um driveway relocation can you zoom in on the revision description can you read that for me revise Township comments are you aware we are a burrow I thank you were there any comments on this plan no so was revised on October 7th the entire plan set which was resubmitted so this is part of the plan set and all sheets get that Vision can you zoom in on the Dayton Road driveway on the demolition sheet yes is there any consideration for maintaining those uh mature trees marked as to be removed long there are two trees that are being removed from the Dayton Road uh right away due to the alignment of the driveway what's the sequence of construction as far as impacts beyond the property that's something that would be worked out post approval foration with the GCS uh and the t engineer how long will the sidewalk along d Road and speed well be dist we don't know this time how will the site be protected this all will this all will be hashed out of a preconstruction meeting this is the standard way in a municipality prior to construction beginning there will be a preconstruction meeting where all the relevant professionals will get in the room and they'll go over a logistics plan staging plan site protection sidewalks Etc that'll all be hashed out at that meeting has the state had any comment on the impacts within their right away specifically the C sidewalk no can I ask you about the grading and am any consideration for moving the new proposed manholes out of the sidewalk we're tying in on the Dayton road side uh to the line that is there uh currently so we've have to drop What's called the dogghouse manhole over the existing pipeline um so that's why that manhole is and similar to the um where again we limited to where we can connect uh as far as our stor design so we are dropping dog house man holes those have to go over the existing pipes uh that are out in the right place could your two drainage lines be connected into one so you only need one new connection technically no we're limited to the existing conditions we cannot increase our rate runoff rates to any specific um location even though it isn't all goes to the same system is a new manle in an existing sidewalk Ada compant it will be yes has NJ do weigh in on that not yet can I ask you about the utility plan were you at the first two meetings what's the utility plan discussed at the first meetings no but the the questions on the plans were the first two meetings so I mean I go ahead that's a I'm waiting for the material questions about the ability McDonald's to operate at the site not technical questions on the plans but I mean everyone came out here there's a lot of people looking to ask questions yeah you want to read this whole night okay all right okay all right good good let's do the whole night on this genten that's fine with me let's go go ahead let's look at the next plan where will the new gas Feer be installed this is an all electric building there's no gas can you zoom in on the da Road [Music] driveway sorry uh correction C is at the rear of the building this is not an all not an all electric building where will the gas valve be installed in Dayton Road that would be coordinated uh and directed by psng will the new water valve be installed in dayon Road yes that would also be coordinated with the utility company any consideration for moving the new water line away from that Inlet on road again it it would depend on where the utility company wants our connection to be located any consideration for an overhead electric connection so you don't have to trench under the speed well sidewalk underground is a requirement can you zoom in on the southwest corner of the how will the tree roots be protected for the existing trees just off your property this electric line to be installed that would be again coordinate during construction uh typically there's only two or three ducks that are installed so it's a small trench can I ask you about a landscape plan or that a landscape architect no go ahead how many years until maturity for the shave trees in terms of canopy width and density say typically 8 to 10 depending on species that's 8 to 10 years yes what is the height of the proposed shade trees the shade trees So the plan specs those coming in and being installed at a two 2 and 1 half to 3 in caliber so that would typically be around a 6 to 7ot tree at planting what's their height of maturity oh maturity again it depends on on the species um so the Oaks and Maples would be in the you know 20 to 30 foot range can I ask you about the planing plan yes does the analysis of the illumination levels considered the shading effect of the trees it does not was the proposed lighting level considered for over spill onto the public sidewalks yes it was considered and do you have those vales speed not on we provide light levels at property line this is just modeling effects of the light levels at the property line and they are uh zero so that's there's no zero [Music] 0.10 0.1 being the maximum value we did not go further than the property limit what's the minimum allowable elimination level on a pave surface the ordinance requirement is uh 0.5 foot candles with an aage minimum one was any consideration given to above minimum illumination levels at The Pedestrian crosswalks onite yes are these M airs considered breakway there no any consideration for relocating that light away from the the light is located in an area where if you're parking uh it would be outside of where the bumper would fall and it's located on a concrete pedestal so we let the the lighting levels take can I ask you about the soil Road and Cate control plan how many more topics you have you don't know topics how many more topics do you plan to qu ask questions on I didn't know we were reevaluating first it is you're getting the the whole chance I'm asking you how much left how much you got left that's a fair question how much more do you have I don't know please I'm speaking please we have the applicant um essentially asked board to bend the rules that it's only going to be questions um and this this is In fairness of future applicants have to come members whether there have to be enough meetings to cover this so there has to be a limit people get to ask questions one time so the the first time the engineer went around and you could ask everybody here ask any question they want there's no limitation when he came back only came back for two exhibits and that's why it was limited to that if the board would like to reinstate that think that the appli has has would like to go back to what the limit is only on the two exhibits and that's and I know you don't like to work it's fairness to everybody so this application can get done before time expires and we run into the next application and you have to have four meetings a month to do it so as of now I think we would go back to the questions are fairly limited to two additional exhibits that were introduced when can I ask questions about the sent and control plan as I said you you were able to ask the first time the engineer you asked about anything you chose not to it says revised October 7th okay he said that it wasn't there were two exhibits that were gave additional exhibits that's it those were the ones that the Bo has said in all fairness can be asked so that's it asking back and for that that's the answer there are two exib you can ask questions on and then we're going to move forward and can I ask questions about the other exhibits I think you you had an opportunity previously that's the point this is just going in circular we're just going circular the answer is you can ask any questions that you want with the two additional exhibits everybody here asked questions on whatever they wanted previously and they had a time to that's the rule we're trying to do more even if it's revised did you hear what I said okay you can ask questions on two additional exhibits what are the two exhibits keep okay you put them back up and6 ccul can you bring up the deliv did you consider the site distance calculations for the truck came from Tak not sure what you mean by sight distance did you look at the site distance requirement for the delivery truck to turn from Dayton to yes we did it's not did you consider the safety impacts of the vehicle making a right from speed well into the driveway due to the existing proc constraints speed can you repeat that on the F what happens when a car tries to pass the truck on the right before the truck turns right well it's a it's a one road so the car should not be trying to pass the truck as they're making the maneuver have you ever visited this town have you tri down this part of speed yes what time a day many times in the day uh rush eror and I now you have the heing and on the way to these speings what design speed did you use for this swept path analysis the delivery truck you mean yes so this modeled that maximum speed to show the the maneuvers down to uh 5 miles hour what happens to a bicyclist who's surprisingly in the road on speed on the truck turns right prior to entering or prior to entering the C you mean prior yeah that's right entering the C well if the trucks already making the maneuver that the bicy is would have to pause and wait for the truck to clear the there can you remind me where the truck's going to stop in the parking lot to offload we have an exhibit that's we're going to have our traffic expert cover that did you do a swep path analysis of the truck backing up towards the trash enclosure yes the engineer the track engineer will will show that youve measured and confirmed that the parking lot can circulate freely while the truck is off correct will that be shown on a plan yes TR about that can we look at this are all the tra control devices and utcd complient yes the crosswalk at the West end of the building that speed bump is it a bump or a hump or table it's a table 6t wide at the top does that meet the ash requirements for Speed table it's a crosswalker it's it's not a designed speed table it's acting as a speed table in that it's elevating the crosswalker is there speed for that speed is there a design speed for that speed table cross it's a it's a low speed design it's it's intended again just for the onset circulation it's not intended as a traditional speed table that would be used in a right way can you zoom in on the crosswalk across well are you reconstructing the curb ramp at the northwest corner of the Hill view intersection no does that existing crosswalk lead the requirements for a perpendicular Crossing it joins with a turning area so the crosswalk connects to the other crosswalk allowing for a compliant turning maneuver so that you can go left or right along this sidewalk on speed well at the East end of that crosswalk did you consider a wider curve ramp to accommodate the wider crosswalk straight no due to existing there's an inlet there so we're helded to um without having to do additional workout on that area there was no need for it a wider curb radius are your garbage cans on little concrete sidewalk pads or just on GRS can you zoom in on the East end of the building where the drive-thru Lane circulates around what designed vehicle showing here through the drive-thru it's a 20 foot long uh just pass passenger vehicle was there any Bumper to Bumper offset considered between subsequent Vehicles no it's just illustrative at the Dayton Road exit did you consider any geometric constraints to keep people turning left stoping right this do you mean car traveling west on on dton uh sorry no uh exiting from McDonald's 2 exiting from McDonald's 2 did I consider left turns as shown you have the angle of the driveway and signs that say no rate ter correct what else prevents right terance the angle of the driveway and the width all those those two items specifically were revised in revision one of the plans that was submitted versus the original driveway which was 20 ft wide and left um the Ro didn't Road at a perpendicular connection did you consider Ballard or any other fixed object to prevent that right no has it been that to anything beyond the property line is is on Town bur a property so we did not propose anything further out there did you measure the site triangle requirements for cars circulating through the drive-thru approaching the crosss at the rest end of the building sers are at roadways connect to each other not for for crosss so that crosswalk was added as uh in response to a request from the board at the first meeting did you consider extending the ACT piece of sidewalk from the D Road corner to the yellow triangular area no can you remind me where the bike rack is it's located between the building and the rway is there a bike rack for employees there's one B I proposed [Applause] we talked about this the last two meetings I'm gonna ask again did you ask McDonald's to verify oh I'm sorry Lisa schroer 97 Maple Avenue I'm sorry did you ask McDonald's to verify the sworn testimony from his director of operations that the average McDonald transactions per day your traffic expert will be addressing that which is what I said last I'm asking him if he followed up with a representative from McDonald's about their business case for what the business volumes would be expected for this particular site our traffic expert would be not not the trip Generations I'm asking about expected business transactions did I follow with McDonald's on that I believe you said that you would because we've asked this question twice now our traffic expert follow in the new site plan um were you dealing with any exceptionally narrow or shallow um characteristics in regards to just your overall design of the updated plan where is there anything about the lot that is exceptionally narrow or shallow no there's sufficient length with an area to accommodate the proposed use but would you say that this odd is this lot is oddly shaped I would not okay this issue about the operating hours has evolved it's been kind of a a point of negotiation in the last couple of hearings can you just confirm those of operations will be and confirm that the drivethru is not going to stay open any later than the restaurant would be open for walk I believe we the the last testimon on the hours was 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. with not no extended hours for for Drive corre in your updated site plan is there a designated area for emergency vehicles to park no they're just standard vehicle was were your plans cross referenced with the Morris ples fire zone in that regard is fire zone I guess there's a fire zone map that would give some indicator of where and how paring vehicles uh needs to be provided and so far I haven't seen any indication of emergency vehicle parking correct we're we're not proposing any emergency vehicle parking if there's an emergency the site can be accessed by the bur's equipment uh the delivery truck would be larger than a fire truck larger than a ambulance so that would prove that those Vehicles would be able to get in without issue was the local fire chief consulted about the safety of of the plan and the layout yes and would it be possible for deliveries to made be made with smaller box trucks I do not believe so now the MD getting runs on they have a private delivery service and only trucks I've ever seen are the full size so they don't make concessions local community I'm not aware of any options for that all right Mike iy a more Drive PL um just quick questions on the EV charging sure um I think you said that for the initial phase the equipment will not be installed correct it's just m ready M ready okay so are the pads are the conduits uh pre-lay between the dispenser and the no not between well anything under the concrete would be installed um just empty correct okay um I would suggest swapping where the Transformer is with the panel that's where you have the panel setting right now it's ontility primly and also in between with the transform switch going to be a du nightmare noted on the equipment changes I'm not aware of utility Us in that area well once they run the primary to the transform um and then so for initial phase will J I'll be putting in that Transformer and the inial primary or is that Future No so that would all be again that that would be coordinated with utility provider but typically yes they would only install a Transformer when something's coming online okay so all that separate question for the parking spaces I know there's a variance to make it a shallower depth because you everybody will be using the Cur as a tire and have all the yeah address that originally where the that waiver variance would not be required due to the fact that all the apartment SP landscape areas Prov additional L right so um would it be prudent to be relocating the light fixtures and the signs for the W Verve line because right now it's 2.6 most many people are not going to want get sure we can that neor um McDonald's if it's approved I'm sorry if this is approved the McDonald's will have a seed Willow to address I believe so and were there any alternate plans or designed that would not have the delivery truck exiting on D Road no at the last meeting you said you were aware that trucks this size were not allowed on the road yet except for local deliveries but the delivery is going to come in from speed Avenue to the speed Avenue address right yes so the design was we didn't take into consideration exited come in to make the delivery on D Road you on speed Avenue because it is a speed Avenue address but the design is made so that the truck cannot exit out speed avue and there was no other alternate design the design is for the to deliver truck to exit onto dat the property has furnes on both br the frontage on D road is is longer than the frontage on on D I mean sorry speak but the McDonald's address would be speed potentially yes and trucks are not allowed on the Dayton Road unless they're making a delivery to Daton road because there's no other access but you are able to make your deliveries from speed correct you just can't you're just not capable of exiting that oned Avenue from this prod with this design where yes design considerations that's what I'm basically asking and you had the knowledge that trucks were not all so the question is is there a design consideration there was no other design considerations for the the configuration for the trucks exited no we intended for the deliveries to exit from to Dayton Road um for the ideal layout that we wanted for the McDonald layout for McDonald okay Don younger 10 W uh this is follow up from the last meeting um specific about this is the final revision understanded most recent the current revision yes okay um I had asked some questions of how pedestrian safety and The Pedestrian from the West entrance um on that uh sort of pseudo table um and one of the things that you had said you would possibly redesign was the approach to that table um from a car that was leaving the drive-thru since that's their only way out either just be well or to dat involves going over table um what traffic calming measures so to speak did you design in the provisions we have not rised the pl since the last meeting and this the speed table crosswalk is the traffic common intended to produce the you know vehicle speed through that area and highlight the fact that there's a pedestrian Crossing there so am I right to infer that you're not going to consider any other traffic measures any other redirection of the drive-thru traffic toward the Northwest to for encourage or Force slowing down approaching that process there's definitely more provision still to be done to the plans but the intent is to maintain one driveway to Dayton Road I mean to to speed Avenue so the traffic exiting the site from the driver to you would still have to go over the crossover sure but yes there additional measures that we can incorporate I I was speaking specifically about the or asking specifically about the approach to that cross I understand from the design there's only that way out but in approaching it um the line site being limited by the building and assuming that that's approximately to scale the beginning of that ramp looks like it would be almost immediately after it appears your the drag would hitting the ramp with not much reaction time to slow for the ramp for pedestrians um what are some possibilities in your experience design sites like this to give drivers additional time to see and react to detri so there's you know additional signage can be provided as far as alerting cars exiting drivethru lane and then we can shift the crosswalk and its entirety to the South which would increase the distance from that turning maneuver but again further add add time to to see that there's crosswalk see that there's pedestrian uh in react to it shift shift to the South but it would still be on our West face of the building yes the shortest path to the building and would that be in a in a future revision that would be presented yeah something a little B further absolutely thank Jeff sper s cka 30 Sun Valley way uh previously I had asked a question about the main driveway and the distance to the uh Dunkin Donuts driveway do you have that number or will the traffic engineer have that number yes the traffic have it has the new driveway moved to the north on the plan on the other plan no this is the same plan from the last meeting we not sh changed it but it has shifted North from the original iteration how many feet 3 ft further north does the delivery driver make a decision on where he's going to park when he comes to make a delivery or is he instructed where Park he would be instructed by the store operator owner will he check in and then he'll be told where to park yes it's part of the coordination of setting up the deliveries so on a daily basis or nightly or whenever he makes that delivery he'll check in and be told where to park yeah and the intent from you know McDonald's program is that the truck art would be the same so they' be familiar with the site um but it'd be part of their regular route how many entrances or in or exits are there from in from the building so there's one main entrance to the customer service area uh on the west of pad One customer service area entrance on the west then there's three service doors um to the the back of house on the South faad towards the east end of the building and there's one rear door also to the back of the house so two public doors and then the rest are employee only can patrons use the service does no what is the walking uh how do I walk if I park in the back of the uh parking lot how would I get into the building what's the route that I should take you would walk down the circulation aisle or um you know either end depending on where you are or you can um cross the drive through lanes and and turn to the sidewalk area similar to regular shopping center with a large parking field you're walking in the circulation Island there's no crosswalk from the back of the parking lot to any of the doorways no CU again the doors are located at the um West Side western side of the building but there are 8 crosswalks so if you're walking uh along the south side of the so if you park say in the last six spaces you can uh again walk along the parking field and then you can cross traffic at the crosswalks and you can do that on either end of the the building so I'm going to have to watch for backing up cars and also cars coming at me or trucks to parked I'm just going to have to make a decision on the best way to get into the building on my own correct there's no crosswalk okay um I had a question about the cross hatch hatch at Dayton and speed well you had mentioned that the Morris PLS police requested that yes correct do you know the date that they requested that I guess was it after the application was filed it was requested on June 14th so yes application that's all I have thank you thank you hi Greg Divine 91 Sun Valley Way um you going to ex with the traffic flow coming in that's it um um you had indicated it could have been addressed speed well I guess you're aware of the Zone traffic impact specific address that's the current sub cor is there any application in with the town or otherwise to have the address changed not cently no no okay um with with to that exhibit I see that the is the yellow the truck delivery pattern exhibit yes so that truck is able to make that maneuver that tipe maneuver around the drive-thru Lane and make that turn right so what what is preventing that delivery truck from staying within the footprint of the square the grass around the corners and exiting on speed the traffic experts can actually have an exhibit that shows where it's going to be parked so I think that's a better question for him he's the one who's going to testify on the exhibit going the capability of the truck to make turns within the perimeter yes okay cuz last time you testified to the capability of the truck to make the right turn back on the speed without Crossing on to the other side okay right yes so that's you that remains consistent it's to let's say it exits on day and makes a right on speed you're indicating it won't cross over the street to make that turning right no I I said on the last that they would potentially have to swing wide to make that that right turn Okay um so is the traffic um expert the appropriate person to talk about the Restriction um actually can you make deliveries on off the Speed well Avenue to can yes there's nothing preventing a truck from entering off speed while let's say the b my so the regulation restrict is strictly restricts vehicles from turning on the dayon road or using that road if they over four tons The Only Exception being part C nothing shall be construed preventing such trucks from making deliveries of merchandise or other property along Street streets from which such trucks are excluded so it's a speed well address you have a speed well entrance the navig the navigation capabilities of the trucks are clearly shown there's no my view is and this is probably a question of you your interpretation is different board should know it's a speed well address speed well access accessibility deliveries can be made Dayton Road is not you believe dayon road is necessary as de point to make a delivery yes so a trck not turn with the new perimeter is what you're saying I know you said tra design correct for truck to turn back in front of the building as designed we'd have to make additional changes we'd have to widen up the the pavement area they just need more maneuvering room so instead of going that route we kept the imperious coverage low again it's it's reduction from what's out there today because we're taking advantage of an existing roadway Network So currently your if I'm looking at the left side it's it's adequately it actually looks the same now it's capable of coming in parking and delivering but for some reason the other side of the has more footprint of pavement isn't able to accommodate that truck from making the turn that it made on the left side swinging around the bottom it can't turn around and and go through that parking lot back out it can make the turn in it has enough room to enter it has enough room to is enough room to maneuver between the garbage area and where it delivers and make that turn but it can't make the turn within the footprint that's currently there correct so once you've if you were to go around the building once you're in front of the building there need to be more room for the truck to continue that path to make it back out to speed well it's a different maneuver than just coming in and turning straight between the back of the S sights Kate Cass 179 a wild drive Kate cat 79 a wild Drive Idle Wild I yes i d l e w i l d you're wel I wanted to ask a question about the BM at the back of the property if I can do that I wanted to ask what provision um Provisions have been made to ensure the proper drainage off the BM so that the properties on the other side aren't susceptible to storm water runoff and flooding as a result of the burm existing so as designed the grading is intended for everything to flow uh to the West there are currently no Provisions for the minimal area it's about 3 ft that drains towards the east from the burn but again the storm water alone will be able to go around the burn and then back down to the pavement area where the storm facilities are and it would impact the neighboring properties directly on the other side or property no the tend is to have all the storm water into the pacon area Okay and then it's my understanding that over time BMS can deteriorate and erosion can happen per the plans for the construction of the BM what kind of Maintenance might be required to the Landscaping to maintain it and to prevent erosion so typically once you if approved if installed there would be a u a two-year Bond put in place that would ensure that the landscaping that's there it's established and doesn't die off so once it's established then the burn should take care of itself and again if any of the trees or anything happens um you just replace them okay so there's no maintenance whatsoever requir no not okay thank you madam chairwoman before we take a break at 9: I would like to call our next witness Mr Craig Parago can you hear me okay thank you um it was in my review reports uh the first comment I had related to the site access at speed wall the Ingress specifically related to the two drivethru lanes and the rather abrupt turn to line getting into each of those lanes and was requested to provide uh turning templates pesture vehicle turning templates from the Ingress oriented to each of those two drives and when I brought this up at the last meeting you said you would provide it as that plan been prepared has been prepared and the track been confirmed so he will present okay okay Mr Paraguay please raise your right hand state your name get fr the microphone name sure my name is correct par p e r e g y that hand ra you swear or affirm the testimony you give this evening before this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing the truth help you got yes okay a 10 minute break thank you so [Music] [Music] stre [Music] [Music] [Music] but he told us [Music] [Music] heig okay we are right yeah ready [Music] get actually know con who [Music] there me too you should understand [Music] why congratulations good news are you doing all the recording St what software it's all just did and you're all [Music] [Music] sure [Music] Jers [Music] down [Music] [Music] you [Music] [Music] thank you madam chair uh at this time we did call Craig Parago this is our traffic engineer Mr Parago could you please give the board the benefit of your educational background and your qualifications sure uh I have a bachelor's degree in civil engineering from Virginia Tech um a license there's a jet engine we're going to turn the air commissioner off e okay so um credential I have a bachelor's degree in civil engineering from Virginia Tech I'm a licensed professional engineer in New Jersey been practicing as a traffic engineer for almost 25 years now I testify pretty much on a nightly basis in front of uh planning and zoning boards throughout the state um as an expert in traffic engineering we would ask that Mr Parago be accepted as an expert in the field of traffic engineering anyone object everyone I just want to know done it uh in Mars Plains or in Mars County uh yes Mars County all the time I did testify of Mars Plains it was probably 15 years ago think it was a chase the Chase Bank maybe on speed well I think that was uh that was many things about that but I you know Morris to frequently and hover paron all the time okay thank youif okay Mr par your offers prepared a traffic impact study dated May 28th 2024 that was revised honor about September 13 2024 is that correct correct okay could you please provide the board with an overview of the traffic impact and parking assessment report and your findings and conclusions sure um so our traffic report essentially does uh two things we look at the offsite traffic impacts and the accuracy of um the ability of the road window to handle those and then we also look at the on-site circulation and the parking and the drivethru design and those things that we've been talking about for three meetings so I'll start with the traffic impact part things we can mix things up a little bit um The Way We Begin any traffic impact study is to collect traffic count data to get an idea of the existing traffic volumes that are on the workpl and in this case we took our traffic counts at the Speedwell Avenue intersections with Dayton Road and Hillview Avenue and what we want to do is isolate the time periods where the roadway is going to be its busiest coincident with case in th's restaurant being its busiest so we look at the weekday morning and weekday evening peak time periods and then we look at the Saturday lunchtime time period because that's when you have Shopper traffic as it's busiest so those are your worst case scenarios excuse me that we analyze as Traffic Engineers the thought being that the rest of the day there's less traffic being generated by McDonald's less traffic on the radway so things will operate better so we want to see the worst case scenario so we we collect those counts I'll give a little more detail than than you probably already understand given the the audience just so an understanding how we do it uh we collect the traffic counts be a turning movement counts how many cars turn left right through Etc coming to pedestrians across the road uh and it's done in 15minute increments so in the morning we do that from 700 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. in the evening we do it from 4:30 to 6:30 p.m. and then Saturday we go from 11: a.m. to 2 p.m and then we four highest consecutive 15minute intervals and that's the peak hour so we isolate the busiest hour within those three time periods giving us the morning evening and Saturday peak hour um at this particular location now that the peak times will vary from day to day but during the counts that we did the peek hour in the morning was at 7:30 to 8:30 uh in the evening 4:45 to 5:45 and then Saturday was 11:00 a.m. to if I went out there and did the same counts 3 days from now Shi a few minutes but that's what it was here uh just informationally uh traffic volumes during those peak hours speed well Avenue is seeing about 1300 to, 1400 vehicles per hour toway traffic um Dayton much quieter only of 10 to 15 vehicles per hour and then Hill viw in the evening and the Saturday you're in the 20 to 30 vehicle range uh the morning a little heavier around 60 because uh obviously that's when the school activity that's Sprints in with those those PE Time um your traffic engineer asked about the uh the pedestrians that we saw crossing the crosswalk at Speedwell Avenue uh one pedestrian crossed in the morning 8 in the evening and four in the Saturday just during the peak hour just informationally um so you have an idea of the members that we're working with now what I need to do is Project into the future and how much traffic we're going to see at the time the McDonald's is going to be uh constructed and operation which obviously be a few uh a bit from now New Jersey DOT publishes growth rates for roadways uh and in this area this type of Road in Morris County they publish a 2% per year growth rate so I took those traffic counsil PE hour Council I accounted at 2% per year times two years to get the Future No build volumes or the future volumes that would be there without the McDonald's now that's a little bit conservative anytime I've gone back and done counts a year or two years lat the same we're not seeing that level of traffic growth so it's it's kind of a conservative number that's built in um to the dot data but that's what we U that's what we're to use um in New Jersey so the next step we need to do is figure out how much traffic McDonald's will generate itself during those peak time periods during those same peak hours and what we do is assume that the busiest hour of McDonald's in the morning in the evening and Saturday is the exact same hour that the road is the busiest to again the idea of looking at that worst case scenario um the McDonald's traffic is projected based on the Institute of Transportation Engineers or it trip generation manual that's how Traffic Engineers project traffic volumes for various land uses and in this case the land use that I use is is fast food restaurant with drive-thru so it's generic it's not specific to McDonald's it's nationally collected data at fast food restaurants and that's what the do would make be use and that's what the stand traffic engineering industry uses to give you an idea of the numbers that the projections are this is just the hourly trips uh the morning peak hour total volum now this is cars going in and out of the out of the uh the driveways of the site the morning peak hour is 69 entering 66 entering Vehicles evening peak hours 52 entering 48 exiting and then the Saturday peak hour 86 entering 82 exiting that's based on the it now what you have to keep in mind is that those traffic bonds going in and out are not all people who have come from far and wide to come to McDonald's most of them are already traveling one speed well Avenue and now there's a McDonald's there so they can stop in and get their cup of coffee and right and continue on the way so that phenomenon is called pass by traffic in other words it's it's people who will come in and visit the site that would have already been on in this case just Speedwell Avenue uh either way and the it gives me uh uh rates for that so in the morning half 50% of the traffic is passed by traffic to to a fast food restaurant uh in the evening 55% and on the Saturday 37% of the traffic volumes those numbers that I gave you would be passed by traffic meaning those cars are already out there in Speed Avenue when the McDonald's is there now they're going to turn in and make a purchase and continue on their way now I keep keep mentioning here that I'm using this itd data and this fast food data because that's as a traffic engineer I have to use the industry standard because I'm looking to test the worst case scenario but the reality is a roadway like this busy roadway State Highway I think that pass by percentage is going to be much higher than the the 50 55% that I gave you uh in reality and I also keep mentioning that I'm just looking in fast food restaurants we've done lots of work for McDonald's uh over the years and they've done a lot of the these the repurposing and rebranding of the stores where they're going from the single drivethru Lane to the double drive-thru Lane I've been involved in 31 of those applications uh over the years and every time we do one of those we count the actual McDonald's itself we count how many cars go in and out how many use the drivethru how many Park um how long the drivethru queue is so we really assess all those to see first of off switching to the double drive through in thate is going to make a make an improvement and just to make sure that you know we are taking away parking for example that there's enough so I've kept those statistics in that data and if I compare that to the it numbers that I you know have to use as a traffic engineer I find that they're they're lower the McDonald's in most of those 31 are in New Jersey there's a couple in Pennsylvania a couple in New York but pretty much in the Northeast are generating less hourly traffic volumes than the generic it fast food restaurant that's Source from data all over the country uh we find that 30 it's 30% low in the morning 16% lower in the evening and it's half it's 50% of what the it tells me the Saturday is based on McDonald's in the Northeast so again just pointing that out I use in my analysis the itd numbers more conservative but the reality is we're seeing lower traffic generation numbers than what my report uses um the last thing that I guess I typically it's not part of a traffic engineering report because you don't analyze daily traffic generation it's based on hourly traffic generation but I know there's been a lot of questions from the public in terms of how many cars per day and the it and I cons McDonald's agrees that the numbers make sense based on their projection says 710 vehicles in and 710 out obviously nobody standing McDonald's overnight 710 in 710 out uh um per day the daily number that doesn't really mean anything in terms of my traffic analysis but I know that the question's been asked a lot so I wanted to give you guys that information something else to consider is you know this isn't vacant property I know the friendly is in a business now there's nothing that says they can reopen and start working again another restaurant can move in there you have the small office complex next door uh you know obviously that is is open and generating traffic I didn't any credit for that I didn't remove any traffic so when I did our traffic counts some of those cars that we counted were probably going in and out of the site today I didn't remove them no credit for them I just assume this is vacant land adds on top of that again that Fe to be conservative really look at a worst case scenario so that being said the next step that I need to do is assign the traffic and on to the roadway network over top of those no build bombs where people going to turn um where are we going to add our our traffic at pass by traffic again comes in CES in the same way the the new traffic or the non pass by comes in and goes back the way they came essentially um typically we we' see for a use like this it's going to sort of replicate the new traffic will replicate the roadway volumes speed well for all intensive purposes it's about a 50/50 split Direction you know it's One Direction in the morning One Direction theing for the most part it's an even split pass by traffic tends to be more slanted toward right turn in and right turn out because it's convenience proof I I you know I can get a cup of coffee at any number of places between where I'm where I'm living and going to work if I have to make a left in and a left out a lot tougher probably going to go someplace else so it tends to be more right in right out uh and that's where our initial May report we had it for U it's usually about 80 20 split right in right out um Mr M your traffic engineer suggested that we use that same proportion of roadway Network again looking to test that worst case scenario so the Revis report does have that 50/50 support for the pass by traffic rather than the more slamed towards the right and right out and and and we're we're still okay in terms of the analysis so the traffic analysis is done for the peak hours uh in a number of ways the first thing I calculate is the level of service and that's basically the the amount of delay per vehicle it's based on those traffic volumes um stock control Lane widths things of that nature it's a computer program that uh calculates the average delay per vehicle and then the ranges of delays are related to a level of service a being the best Z to 10 seconds of delay be someone like sort of like grades in school but not necessarily because if you when you're designing a new facility you typically designed shoot for a level of service D and I don't think that would have gone so well for me school I likees of school analogy but um you typically should to get a level of Serv D in peak hours the idea being the rest of the day is going to be much better uh New Jersey DOT who's going to control the driveway here it's their Ro uh allows driveways to operate at a level of service D so with all that worst case scenario the driveways during the morning and evening are at a level of service D in the evening uh we had a D in the original but again when I went a little bit more conserva that is a level of service key um D we're looking at Double the traffic that I think we're likely going to see on a Saturday based on like I said before those other McDonald's but it still works worst case absolute scenario we still meet the do's criteria and we still have uh acceptable levels of service on the roadways the next layer that you get into is Q L you want to make sure that especially in an unsignalized intersection that you're not going to have Q's vehic sending too deep into the site uh the same analysis software calculates what's called 95th percentile Q in other words 95% of the time there'll be many cars or or less weight uh it's a mathematical calculation so I'm going to give you the numbers there's decimals uh for example the morning the 95% lq leaving the site is 1.1 not going have a 10 the vehicle but it's a that matter of calculation uh the evening it's uh 0.9 so you're basically one car waiting to pull and then Saturday it's up at 2.3 Vehicles which easily fits on the site at the driveway throw doesn't create any circulation problems or or any issues so that's uh sort of the second it's something that not always done as Traffic Engineers but you know when there's a a little more sensitivity and and uh uh as was requested by your traffic engineer we do what's called a gap study now on a roadway like speed well or really any roadway when you have upstream and downstream traffic signals two things happen one they can back up and block the drive the driveway or the the access point that you're looking at or they help and create gaps in traffic that aren't necessarily account for in just a straight analysis which is just a free flow of traffic um you have a little bit of both happening here at this location sometimes you you know you could do circles around and speed well back up pass the driveway so the appropriate thing to do is make sure there are enough physical gaps in the traffic to allow vehicles to exit from the speed roll that and that's done be Gap study we went back out again to take to collect that data and we wanted to if it wasn't ready for the first hearing because we wanted to make sure that school was in session obviously you had the school across the street so uh we went back out on Thursday September 12th and on Saturday September 7th to do that Gap study and you're basically just timing how much time between vehicles um traing and speed 11 with the highway capacity manual and our our calculations tell us based on you know nationally collected research that you need a 7.1 second Gap to make a left turn and a 6.2 second Gap to make a right turn with a follow-up Gap being shorter in the order of three and a half seconds meaning you know one person makes a left you rolling up to the stop sign you would take a smaller Gap because you had that moment I can tell you right now that if you wait for a 7c gap in traffic in some in New Jersey and somebody's sit be behind you they're going to be on the horn pretty quick because that's that's a lot we definitely are used to smaller gaps and inures but again sticking to the letter of the law we use that 7c Gap and uh actually had a conversation with your traffic engineer we had a little bit of different methodologies and how we do the uh the actual calculations for The Gap study his is better and I'm changing the way I do it based on that but um when I do the calculations based on what we saw there we can accommodate 138 exiting vehicles in the morning peak hour 104 in the evening peak hour and 113 in Saturday our projections have coming out 60 a.m. 44 p.m. and 74 Saturday so there are enough gaps uh in the traffic stre to accommodate the ex sorry sure the gaps are the numbers coming out both yes morning gaps this is gaps 138 uh p.m 104 Saturday 1113 and then the actual volume of cars that we project coming out are 60 a.m. 44 p.m. and 74 Saturday so three layers of sort of looking at you look at the Lev of service which is sort of you know the first step and most often that's all that is done you look at the the queuing make sure that that's not going to be an issue that works and then you take one step further and do the the gaps which I AG made sense to do here um and that works as well so no matter which way you look at it the traffic analysis shows that this site can handle the traffic the roadway network has the to handle the traffic I know it's busy out there I know it's a lot going on and that's really why McDonald's wants to be here they want to capture those people who are traveling on speed well Avenue there's a lot of McDonald's in New Jersey you're not going to have people coming far and W from from far and wide peak hours to visit this particular McDonald's most of the people are going to be who live in town or are already traveling on speedwall Avenue past the site so that's it uh from the the traffic capacity side um I did get a request I think it was the police department up Mr W that asked to look at the crash history it wasn't maybe it was whatever we went and uh requested three years of Crash history just to see if there was any accident history that you know could be corrected or could be an issue uh in that three years there were three the police department gave us three crash reports one of them is actually down in rosale Avenue and two of them near the site front were just rear end crashes which is nothing you can do to fix those it's just you know it just happens hopefully the uh the Camas in the cars and all the beeping that they do now will help that as everybody gets the smarter vehicles but typically um the criteria for mitigating any accidents is five preventable crashes within a 12 month period so we have three over a three year 36 month period so there's certainly not a a crash pattern out here or anything to be concerned about we are going to make this a safer config we're getting rid of a driveway there's two driveways with this property now we consolidate that to one we're flipping that crosswalk to the other side of fuel view for better visibility uh it's going to be a 10-ft wide crosswalk you don't have to carry the little Flags across the street anymore it's going to have the rapid flashing beacons that that work extremely well so all there isn't an issue now and there's not going to be anything it's going to be better in a safer condition and that do not block the Box assuming to okay with that will help things as well so that's covers sort of the offsite of the access uh traffic side of things uh next up we look at is the parking Supply um I know the testimony before was based was about your ordinance requirements we'll go through that uh we have 30 parking spaces on the site proposed we get a credit for two spaces for the EV uh so the letter of the law says we have 32 spaces there there's physical parking spaces on the so your ordinance kind of interesting that you have you have the two different criteria and you apply whichever one is greater so the first criteria is one space with two and a half seats we have 39 seats so that comes up with 16 parking spaces required which makes sense because the people who are parking are sitting in the seats not using the tractor um next criteria we have to take the greater is 1 per 75 ft of floor area and and it does say gross FL in your ordinance I've seen that 1 for 75 in a lot of municipalities but it's usually the customer service area it doesn't include the kitchen and the dry good stores and the freezer space and the drive-thru operation space but your ordinance does so that math comes out to 41 parking spaces that's why we need the parking pars I can assure you that and I'll go through my reasoning why this site has plenty of parking for McDonald's um first I'll go back to the the it they also have parking generation data similar to the traffic MERS that I gave you they have uh collected parking accounts and the generic fast food restaurant will drive- through the average Peak demand parking demand is 0.47 spaces per seat do the math here that comes out to 18 parking spaces again we have 30 I mentioned that we've done all those counts at McDonald's 31 other McDonald's we also count the number of parking spaces the average without even considering the size of the buildings any was the average overall 30 average maximum parking in over all 31 of those uh was 18 spaces on Saturday lunchtime and some of that data is preco you know uh the drivethru wasn't quite as popular so certainly not you know out of character with other McDonald's in in the Northeast if I do the math for building size CU a lot of the ones that we've done had much larger buildings they used to have those play places and all that sort stuff I do the math per building size the our if I was it and doing just McDonald's the way they do it it would be 4.66 spaces per th Square fet uh which is 14 parking spaces so again we we're under just in that under 20 realm of all of the 31 that I've done in the Northeast the most parking the most cars park that any of these McDonald's at any one single time was 30 and it was at a McDonald's way in Route 1 South preco and it was the it's the busiest McDonald's ever they had the highest traffic numbers on the highest parking it's a 97 seat store and it's over 5,000 square ft so it's much bigger than this store um three times the number of seat almost three times the number of seats and the most of all of them was 30 we have 30 here so for there not to be enough parking here this would have to become essentially the busiest McDonald's in the Northeast which I don't think is going to be the case um if I take that that 30 and use the square footage in the seats I actually had the number of seats in raway I would give you the seats for the other 31 a lot of times we don't know how many seats are in there uh if I break it down per square footage in seats 5.88 spaces per th square fet based on the Raw One maximum would translate to 18 spaces here again right there under 20 and that 97 seats it would be 31 per seat which would translate to 12 here so the matter which way you slice it you're looking at 12 to 18 parking spaces used up at any one time maximum and if this becomes the busiest McDonald's in New Jersey you still got enough 30 so that covers that that's that's it for the parking and I I think your traffic engineer agrees on that that parking drivethru peing I think this is the last onsite uh section the entire system here the drive-through system has a capacity of 16 cars you have eight cars can fit between where you order your food and that crosswalk that leads into the building and you can fit an additional four behind that for a total of 12 before you're out on to the street and creating any sort of issues um our 31 McDonald's we've anywhere between 60 and 75% of the traffic uses the drivethru so I put together a queuing analysis assuming that uh all that 75% use the drivethru max you know throughput at the drivethru and this is based on uh it's a statistical formula where you put in the the the traffic volume and service time and and um it calculates the probability of the Q exceeding x amount of vehicles so the 95% Q which will be typically used for design uh in this location will be four vehicles behind that order which is consistent with what we've seen when we've gone out and looked at these double board um restaurants four spaces again 12 you can fit eight before you hit the cross BL on site uh and 12 before you hit the street the probability of exceeding eight spaces is 0.18% and the probability of exceeding 12 spacing on the street is 0.01% so statistically again you can see a theme here I go through the the statistical the actual reality that we've seen the statistical analysis shows that there's certainly more than enough drive- through he our research at other McDonald's the average stack behind the order board the average maximum stack if you do the math is 6.73 cars and that's a single order board obviously going to the double the whole point of the double order board is to p that queue from behind the order board put it between the order board and the windows every single one of these that we've looked at before they've switched to the side by side ordering there's a line of cars at the order board and then there's a huge gap of pavement and then there's one guy at the window picking up his food or pay so the point is to pull these cars into the drive-through system I can take the orders faster and and pull them through but even even acent that in the single order board we still only saw a maximum of seven behind an average maximum of seven behind there um three locations we've actually gone back and done the counts after they switched from the single to the double and um the average went down to 3.6 Vehicles behind the order order boards and the most we saw at any of them stacked behind the order boards was six and I believe that was one of the times when M Rib was back so that might had something to do with it um so again this the the queuing system we think more and more than adequate uh you're not going to have any issues in terms of backups onto the street or blocking any of the traffic and just the revisit raway our busiest one the most that they ever had in their drivethru system at one time was 15 cars can fit 16 so again even if you match the busiest McDonald's that we've seen in the Northeast this works um I think that covers all the the stuff that's in the in the traffic impact study in terms of um you know what was in the report um I'll add on the dot obviously we need a major access permit for this property we have not submitted that application yet because obviously is we're having some feedback with the public and the board which is the way it should work we're making some tweets and changes to the plan and do doesn't move at a very Swift pace so we want to make sure that the plan we get them is the one that we want them move review and not have to start back over oh we changed this we changed that so that's why we haven't submitted yet but we did have pre application meeting with them and that gives us the opportunity to share the plans and share what we're doing and get feedback on any issues they see or problems that they see um so we had that meeting in August on August 22nd they were very happy with the access configuration they like it when we remove driveways from the highway so from two to one so they're very happy with that uh they did reiterate that we need to keep that 100 foot corner clearance from d Road so we' move the driveway as far as we can towards d Road um we discussed the the crosswalk relocation moving it to the other side of Hill viw they they agreed thought that was a good idea they did ask us to make it 10 ft wide that was a request of the do um make sure it's properly lit and they were in agreeance with the rapid flashing beacons which are become kind of the gold standard for unsignalized crossings that work really well um and that was really it in terms of comments they didn't really have anything negative to say obviously the application they look deeper into lighting and drainage and and you know technical details but overall they had very positive uh feedback on on the application so now I will pull up a couple exhibits that I know we want to look at the first one U at the end of Mr dart's testimony we were discussing the the that Mr M requested the Turning exhibit for uh cars pulling into the drivethru pull that up on the screen this is the passenger vehicle going into the inside drive-thru Lane which is obviously the the more difficult maneuvering they you can clearly see that that's no problem and no issue it's not wholly different from somebody coming in and having to turn sharply and do a a parking angle parking space we mark this as I believe Mr Brewer up to A7 okay do I have a copy a hard copy I thought it was only up to A6 yeah so I don't know you you know you want to hard copy you can certainly give you that um the next was where the truck is going to park there was a lot of discussion so this will be a s let me show you it is this it's it's essentially the the same as the truck turning exhibit but we show the truck backing to where the the ideal parking location is for it I zoom in so can see it better kind of wash it out on screen okay this this second one is A8 the first one was A7 this is A8 now one difference that you will see in the the plan sets themselves hasn't been up haven't been updated but the the board requested that we narrow this from 15 ft to 12 ft so that's shown here and it works and this has been tightened up to more enforce that left turn on L com out of the driveway but the red outline is the the ideal spot for the the truck to to lay in and park when he uh unloads well not necessar where the truck is inside the red um if there's Vehicles parked in these three spaces but not up here you may P forward a little bit farther I mean obviously it's annoying for them to have to move the truck to let somebody out so they're going to try to park in a place where they aren't uh cars these are the least desirable parking spaces I would suspect that they'll rarely be occupied by anybody so I don't think this is going to be an issue this is McDonald's standard operating procedure they have over 13,000 restaurants in the United States I think they haven't figured out by now I'd say maybe 30% of those rebuilds that we've done had a loading area and we removed it because it wasn't being used it was basically there were you know crates stored there weeds growing up through cracks in it it's they don't use the loading areas this is the way they do it and they had success and had no issues with it but that was uh you know one of the things that we wanted to show is where it would park and then the final exhibit will be what happens if a car comes through and the guy's there so we've got that exhibit as well a a and I'll zoom in and you can see when he's there passenger vehicle doesn't even have to go over the striping GE they have no problem making it around the truck just to be clear yes so those were the couple exib everybody was asking Mr D to pull up and instead of introducing new exhibits that should come um come from me hopefully that's a little clearer and the same the aisle width is the same so if the truck decided there was nobody parked in these spaces if he was sitting over here you could make it around if you wanted to sit you know wherever makes the most at the particular time he makes the delivery it doesn't stop site circulation and he's obviously going to try to avoid having a block a parked vehicle it doesn't seem to be an issue with the other 13,000 I don't see that would be here thank you Mr parman we'll we'll sit on this side I guess and for board questions and then we'll flip around when the when the public comes up the uh I submitted two reports TR number one I'm sorry excuse me I submitted two reports for this review reports for this project June 21st and then based on the revised plans October 18th um I concur with the calculations that were performed uh by Mr Parago the trip generation assignments I did disagree with the pass by patterns he revise the second report to comply with what I requested which actually made some of the analysis worse but I'm satisfied with the analysis that he did um he did provide tonight the uh turning template for the passenger vehicles coming inbound to the site uh to go to either the uh uh they did to shift the uh driveway speed well driveway as much as they could towards date uh to soften that turn into the drive through L um what I would like to and I he did provide a great deal of information uh background on studies he's done at other McDonald's these are the types of things the Traffic Engineers try and do with good numbers uh for a particular site uh one thing I'm curious about considering them Mr parway um all the data that you gathered from those uh more than 30 sites I hope you're going to submit that trip generation parking generation information to the it to let them include it in their in their statistical base yeah that's the type of information they look for um what I would like ask which gets away from U all the theoretical uh not theoretical actually the actual statistical information is in uh your testimony your report indicate that about 2/3 of the traffic now generated by this type of use goes through the drivethru used to be 50% or less which I recall it's now about 2/3 um about uh considering that about how long does it take for someone coming through a drive-thru you go to the audit board and then get processed through to pick up pay pick up your order about how long does it take to uh process somebody through well the the research that McDonald's has done on these side by-side drive-throughs is that it could it has the through PL for between 150 and 180 cars per hour so using the lower number I figured out the service time at the order point in terms of time actually processing through you know we don't time we haven't timed that there is a a publication a fast food publication that gives some of those statistics the problem is with them it's called in InTouch Insight it's pretty interesting information but they're not only looking at the peak hours so when the store is really busy and there's a lot of people in the driveth through you're going to get through it much faster than you are at 2:00 in the morning or I guess but you know later at night when not is urgent so but what what this suggests is that the average time spend in the queue is 237.000 say that again so four minutes or so it takes about four minutes per car to go through if yeah if which which sort of makes logical sense I guess you're moving up incrementally uh theoretically at that 150 you're getting 24 seconds per Lane through the order board so call it 30 seconds you move one position up every 30 seconds that's eight cars eight CU positions sort of make sense in about what time frame what I'm get again if it takes four minutes to get through time from from the time you pull up and stop to the time you get your food the average according to this is 4 minutes well just on simple B we're talking about 1 hour and it takes 4 minutes for one car to get through and you only got one pickup Point um that would be 15 cars in an hour so yeah but the but but the cars more cars are going through you're you're processing them at it doesn't take four minutes for one car it takes four minutes from the time you get into the process the windows pumping them out at one every 20 seconds and the orders are coming in one every 24 seconds that's what I want to clarify yeah I thought you meant the total time in there which is something that is you know veryable now if the queue was exceeded uh spilled out towards speed well uh what would occur on the street and this would just not only be for spilling out on the street uh uh at speed well but also if somebody's coming south to on speed well uh want stop to make the left turn in uh doesn't have a gap uh that happen to the southbound well you're saying if it if in that .01% where the 13th car fits there he would well you have a a parking Lane on the speed well so it's you know an extra wide northbound lane so that 13th car actually wouldn't block through traffic and then generally if I'm going to the drive-thru to get McDonald's and I look and see the cars the last cars backed up to the street probably just going to keep going and stop I I can't IM that so you so desperately need your chicken nuggets that you're going to sit in the middle of a state highway either that you I assume you wouldn't go to the drive Park yeah or you would go park okay then once again and I believe you touched on this uh when we were talking about the uh Gap study and I would just like to know to the public that's here the Gap study was not originally done in the first traffic report it was something that I requested specifically because I'm familiar with speed well Avenue the rush hour periods it it's very long cues the gaps are formed by signals along the roadway which break up the flow tends to platoon it uh in groups which affords people the ability to get in and out of the side streets of driveways uh that's why I asked for The Gap study because the calculations in the Capacity Analysis are based on computer analysis the Gap study is based on an analysis of exactly what's truly occurring on the street it's it's telling you this is what's happening these are how many gaps these are how long the gaps are and which directions um and that's why I requested that analysis perform I asked for it to be summarized in a certain format that I could easily understand uh Mr per provided that to me and I'm satisfied with the results that proved and I think many of the comments that I had in my report I think indicated was satisfactory yeah I tried to touch on list Mr do you have any comments here I have no questions for this witness yeah just could you remind everyone how many times a week does the um charger trailer come to the site uh sure it's uh two two deliveries per week two deliveries per week and how long does each delivery take more or less there's an average um 30 to 40 minutes okay okay this my only questions for right now thank you okay so not sure whether This falls under the scope it looks like you you do a left- hand turn in of both exits if you left and had a Dayton or you left out of McDonald's lot you can make a left yes out a abundance of safety and perhaps convenience for everyone else on behind that person who's going to make a left what if we made I'm just fabricating something here left turn only from Dayton Right Turn Only from McDonald's log in other words this way this way someone who wants to come in McDonald's is really going to come in through the speed well entrance not through dating no kidding and how are they going to do that if someone's trying to make a left turn at the same time just it just gets very congested it seems like it' be easier to force them to go out on date and make a left from there cuz it's no block the Box see the the reason one of the reasons that I think they're having the access to date make sense because of that exact situation so you have the ability to to have a relief valve to outlet that traffic to another spot so if somebody is rudely waiting for way too long to make the left out of the McDonald's driveway I can circulate around and go out to D made my right or if I know I have to make a left for whatever reason I can go out to to Dayton where it's going to be easier to do not the so rather than restricted I think giving the flexibility makes more sense but ultimately it's going to be whatever the do tells us whatever we decide in this room isn't going to matter I understand that's why I was I don't know those fits the questions yeah good question I'm yeah so you provided some numbers on level of service Gap and actual exit feel like there's a lot more numbers than that right there that's my focus I'm trying to W my head around traffic okay I think you also said 710 in and out of this facility per day that's the daily volume per day that has nothing to do with the traffic analysis it's really just a general it's not anything that the the public had ask what the daily volume was and that's the best correct correct so between all of the level of service numbers the Gap numbers and the actual exiting numbers if I'm just doing some quick math I don't I don't come close to the 710 in an out per day how do we do that I don't know how you could I mean the daily we don't know the hours of operation all those again it's generic fast food restaurant or drive-thru some of them could be 24 hours some of them open for some of them might be Wendy's that were only open for one so it's an average but it it comports with what McDonald's expectations would be for a location like this in terms of vehicles per day yeah so maybe I'm just I'm maybe I'm just not understanding because if you because I don't I don't care about the hours whether it's 6:00 a.m. to 11: p.m. that that that would make it daily exactly what I'm focusing more on is the 710 per day in an out right so now I'm trying to figure out during the day the hours of operation 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. where do those 710 cars fall because if I look at your levels of service and your actual exiting during the morning Peak and evening Peak forget the weekend right now I don't see how those numbers get me to the 710 day and again maybe I'm looking at it wrong but somewhere during the day you've got to get to that set 10 right you don't have to but that that's but that's what [Music] you're Sor there's really no way that you can get from the peak hour to the Daily it's just it's a separate count the IT people report to the it I did counts at of Popeyes McDonald's chick whatever it is and here's how many cars we in the peak morning peak hour the evening peak hour and here's how many were throughout the day the the busiest they average the busiest and that's that's the way the numbers come so you there's no mathematical way to get from the peak hours to the Daily it's just it just is what it is yeah yeah I can't get my head wrapped about that sorry just I went to Michigan State J T it's a lot of Statistics in that book and I'm not the big into the statistics I like the information he gives me but how they calculated is was never my favorite standard deviations and all that yeah okay I'm I'm okay my comment or question is related to that to some degree and we're at our third meeting now and I don't think we ever heard how many patrons thises McDonald's could handle or would have in any particular dayb and I think we were told a couple times we're going to get that information and we never did so how many people will come into that McDonald's on any given day the the best projected is 70 cars I know but I don't know so let me let me let me just back up whoever is going to open this McDonald and I don't know who the real owner is they had to do some kind of analysis on this location because they're in it to make money so without knowing how many patients they're going to have every day they probably never could figure out how much money they're going to make from this McDonald's no I understand they don't so but so isn't that number out there someplace in your files in your investigation in your analysis didn't somebody do this analysis to determine complely you can ask me yes I I McDonald's obviously has a a ballpark number of what they estimate for these stores they do that they don't share that with me I I can't use that anyway it's meaningless to me I use the traffic engineering numbers I told McDonald's my traffic engineering numbers say 710 I said yeah that's right in the range of what we expect it fits 710 cars would be you probably have more people transactions cuz you know three people go in a car at lunch and it's three you know what I mean so 750 transactions 800 would be 710 cars you know it matches their numbers so then they don't have like a specific number like we're going to have 7416 people it's it's a ballpark range and I the trip generation match I I totally understand where you're coming from I still think somebody in the team had to do some better resarch as to how much money is going to be made here because that's what it's going to come down to and got to be based on volume that's the only way it's going to be figured out sure I've been working for I've been working from McDonald's for my whole career for 24 years I've been doing mcdonals I've never they've never shared one of their Market studies or how much money they make it's it's their information but what it all comes down to is how much how many cars are going to come in and out and my information matches their information they're not going to sh I mean that's proprietary information I don't know how they do that research and I'm sure I do work for Wendy's and Chick-fil-A and Popeyes Raising Canes I'm sure they don't want me having that knowledge to share with those other competitors it's not something that they would give me but if my numbers match theirs I think that's the answer I I just think it should be more voluntary information for all of us that are here um the amount of line that's going to go through that that site and I know we don't have an exact number have some kind of percentage the other thing that's bothering me has been bothering me since theine years ago you're telling me that that track is going to have no issue getting in and out I mean based based on your diagrams everything's super tight in there and yeah and that's a good point these this software the vehicle tracking software that models these and the Astro can turnning ring out basically it's modeling the worst truck driver ever like you got in your truck for day one of learning that's how you drive reality and we've had to do this before where the this analysis didn't work and had to actually hire a truck driver to do it they can do it they can maneuver so much easier than this program shows so if it works even barely here it's a piece of cake for an experience truck dver okay my questions were covered in testimony most of my questions are I really don't have a question I just want you to tell me a little more about that was the most important for me because if all these cars drivve in at one point you said there are 180 cars per hour that come into McDonald's uh the the dver could theoretically handle that we don't expect that but if if you pumped it if you put in an infinite line of cars and said go it could push through 1008 okay so how many cars can be in the Drive-Thru picking up at the windows at one time without backing out on the street because that that's the problem that I 4 C you could add 16 cars before you hit that crosswalk that that crosswalk this crosswalk behind the driveth so 16 cars fit in that system four more can fit on the site behind that so 20 so you you could have 20 cars on site unless they're giving away french fries I doubt you'd see that but you could have 20 cars on site stacked up in the drive and not back up not that's why not backing up and what let's say something does happen and they back up on the street what happens then who's going to stop that does somebody come out of the store and say you can't do that you have to move on uh or did they just go park I would think they would just go park and just I mean like we were saying before like you'd have to really be hankering for a McDonald's to to sit in the middle of a state highway and a drive-thru you be like I'm not waiting for that I'm going on the next place it's a question because that could be a problem on people out it would if that ever happened it would be but that would be the case with anything what if 10,000 people showed up at friendlies and waited I mean that could be anything but every measure that we have shows that the chances of that happening are so remote like I said 0 one% chance of that next car that still wouldn't block the traffic it would hang out into the into the RightWay uh 1 McDonald's in the Northeast the busiest one we ever saw had 15 cars in the drive-through system we fit 16 in before the cross we could go 20 in the streets so again if this became if this operated the busiest of 31 McDonald's in North Eastern United States in the past 10 years and I've counted if this matched those numbers it still would work parking driver que all okay thank you I do best we can do I do have one more thing you mentioned do not block the Box can you show me where that would be yeah I believe the police asked for here a DAT see right okay I see and that's going to be up to the the do d right okay thank you think I go how you doing good um do we know what usage is in the dunin Dons CWI the dunk Don next yeah no no no do you know anything on speel Avenue that would be close to this as far as in an out was AC me that oh sure a supermarket yeah would be way more than this yes probably triple is there any way that you can find that out as a comparison is there anything to compare to the numbers that you gave us with an existing business or business that was there amongst people yeah I mean I can give you the I could give you the same projections I mean a Dunkin Donuts I don't know what size but if it was the same size as this McDonald's would be probably double the numbers of McDonald's in the morning and then nothing in the basically yeah I mean it's it's not only a function of the numbers it's also what kind kind of use is a destination or is a pass by and as I said this is more of a pass by use whereas a supermarket me or whatever would be a destination people are going specifically there that I'm just stopping in on the way somewhere else so there's a couple factors in play there not just the numbers so in your report I think I guess you got the information of track to trailer traffic on 202 in general do you have those can you repeat those numbers no uh the question was the McDonald's deliveries was two two per week yeah but it back here U I don't know it doesn't have a page but it has tra to tra trips oh that's from our counts yeah oh good question I see so this is just this is just the peak hours this would be a daily but we do when we do that Capacity Analysis that I mentioned the percentage of trucks is one of the inputs so that's why we distinguish the trucks um peak hour yeah we you had Northbound this is uh in the morning seven tractor in one hour to south in the morning so yeah and they have nothing to do with McDonald's evening there was one Northbound yeah so there are definitely tractor trailers out there too and then on the Saturday to Northbound and southbound so you have in a peak hour more tractor trailers that McDonald's is going to have in a week now there I know there was a concern about the bridge um further on 202 Northbound by Route 53 is that an issue with the tractor trailers it shouldn't be it has the height clearance there's no truck restrictions on that bridge it has the heke clearance that that you would need you know for a bridge on a interstate highway it's tight it feels tight I mean if I was a truck driver I'd probably try to avoid it because it's a little narrow but it doesn't it it doesn't have any restriction and there's different size drafted trailer delivery trucks is that correct sure and what size did you analyze here this is the biggest that M so this is like a 53t trailer with big yeah biggest one in New Jersey but they do have single axle trailers and single axle tractors that are much shorter like City type tractor trailers sure would that be something that would be in use here or would they use a full size I know this is worst case scenario but can you narrow it down a little bit more I I generally understand their preference is to use the full size it is I I know they they must because they have Urban locations use smaller ones if the full size for whatever reason physically couldn't make it they would have to but in this case we're showing that I clearly can so I would think it would be the full sizeer now how often is your parking space turn over uh for somebody who would come in the length of time somebody's in the store less I mean if if you if you went in and in the restaurant maybe you're there for 45 minutes at the most most people who Park nowadays are going in and picking up and leaving so they're there for two minutes three minutes so it's a it's a high turnover parking space the only people who are park there any employees who drive would be able were there from the day I don't know I think it was brought up but I don't remember 100 is those rear parking spots are those for employees yeah I think we did say that we could do that and I see the signs there so I think we that is they could be for employees so they would be there for a duration of time then right right okay thank you could you bring that down I want to ask bring it down so I can see okay chair at the bottom right you could go how many to the crosswalk how many cars you could fit if you can see the cursor from this this window to just just down here right down at the bottom from the orderorder board order boards eight where do the order boards right here these two right there okay how many cars from there to that crosswalk eight eight four and four yep and from there how many more can you get one one more would just hang across the crosswalk and then you can fit three more before you're to the sidewalk really so four you can go you can go four more before you're out into the RightWay the fifth guy would be out so that's that's a total of of 12 right yes 12 to the right away 13 to the road um next question you said the police or do asked for that block the Box you're your police department has for okay but it's Do's road so they have to allow happy you mentioned uh in your study about the number of pedestrians uh how many extra pedestrians or new pedestrians you have you projected when McDonald's op the the it just recently started publishing that pedestrian data that used to only be cars and the most peak hour pedestrian trips for this McDonald's would be 10 that doesn't necessarily mean they're all Crossing speed 10 pedestrians they could be walking down Dayton Road they could be on this side of speed Avenue so some number less than 10 additional people crossing that crosswalk okay and your Peak was nine uh the peak hours they were all these P mixed up 7:30 to 8:30 was the morning that ask in the morning What's happen 7:30 to 830 n n is that so that would be 19 maybe I just have a question that actually was brought up by of sorry questions that were brought up by the public and I wondered if you took into consideration any school buses or tandem landscape yeah trucks I mean school bus is the site's not really designed for school buses I wouldn't imagine uh they pull in if if a bus trip came and one McDonald's I assume they would just park on the speed Avenue I see speed right on in front you can park parking speed does you can uh and land just real quick I really request that everybody respect the way everybody's going to get a chance to do uh the landscape trucks I think the difference here versus The Duncan is they could use theu use the drive-thru here like I said I there's way too much parking here so I think if if a guy came in a landscape truck and wanted to lay across three spaces in the back and run in and get his McFlurry he'd be fine but I would use the driveth if I had a trailer or a landscape easier I don't think I mean I don't know about bus trips to McDonald's I don't think it's I remember when I was a kid we go to birthday parties there it's not the same place anymore so okay so open it up to the yeah I just have um uh I did um board member said pezold uh I did uh commun with McDonald's and um their information is confidential but they did give me a range of what they expect at this site to be between 7 and 800 customers a day okay fits 710 uh and Mr Caro there were some questions from the public about um the ordinance relating to truck trucks on day can you just address that oh yeah dayon roads restricted to trucks for through trucks or or you know traveling on the road um the ordinance does have a stipulation obviously for deliveries if you live on D Road and you get a order a refrigerator from Home Depot the guy's going to come in a truck and has to be able to bring it to same thing goes with McDonald's delivery is are exemp there's no reason that two tractor trailers per week is going to any issues in I mean the traffic Vols are so low you're getting 15 cars an hour uh you know the ODS more than likely the guys the truck's going to go in and out without even encountering the vehicle it's a very lightly traveled residential World okay we don't have any further questions for this Witness not Greg divine value um just speaking quickly to the um Greg you just spoke about the limitation of four ton trucks on D you you actually indicated for deliveries On Da are you the traffic study by the way that submitted yes so you're the one that wrote the address of 415 to 435 speed Avenue is the address of the McDon that's the addressed property have mcon the McDonald's address will be assigned by the town when this is done it's not so it's up to the town to address if it's a DAT and address or a speed well yeah I think the post office decides it'll clearly be speed well it's a commercial new space State H so it'll be a speed well address sure okay as was the friend before so right now there's nothing limiting deliveries to Friendly uh sorry to the McDonald's if it's built by accessing it from speedr you can enter from speed yes deliveries can be made yes okay if Dayton Road did not exist just a wooded area no Road could an alternate design be made which can have deliveries made accessing and exiting on Speedway not from McDonald I believe no it's not not a big enough property by the time you get a tractor trailer to turn all the way back around and front out the speed well you have no list up well right now if you can you scroll down on this please sure right now that truck to make that delivery will clearly turn make that turn and it backs up and it makes a delivery um uh you're saying that truck can't make the the elbow turn to go head back up to the top of the screen he could get down here and then this turn would be very tight but then he's had a U-turn to get back out on to speed ball to make the right and he'd be coming out at an angle to make the left I think you'd take out the front half of the the building to line himself up properly and so they they couldn't build closer to the road to make that turn that wider turn so they don't have to edge up on the property on the upper right there's no alternate plan that can have an exit of a trailer remaining within the footprint not on dating I I don't I maybe it's possible but it would not be a very good site design it wouldn't really make any sense why it's not necessary d Road exists it's two trucks for we that's it no I say it's not qu doesn't matter it's binary is it permitted or not right now the regulation requires an exception except for the inconvenience or the not ideal plan of McDonald's the regulation would prevent it because McDonald's has an alternate plan at prefers or another one would be inconvenient the town would have to interpret the law to say well because it's going to be really hard on McDonald's the town would have to say and the board well because it's not great for McDonald's and it's not ideal let's not apply the regulation because you said it can be done which is not ideal or official you you're you're you're overthinking the regulations the regulations when they restrict trucks on roadways are to avoid trucks from traversing that roadway to get from point A to point B it's saying you can't use date road to cut through someplace or do anything that regulation does not mean a truck that has business in that particular area can't use that vad it's no through trucks that's what that stipulation means well it it's not in that area the regulation and the exception is for a dayeon road delivery a dayon road this is a speed it's not it's not on D Road it doesn't say d Road it says any of the here's a list of streets that trucks are not allowed to go through this doesn't mean that you can't have deliveries on those streets that's what the exception is trucks over four tons gross waiter nearby excluded from the following vated streets correct entire L yes right the exception is they making deliveries for merchandise along the streets from which they're excluded there you go right so we a address you you were you were doing things correctly he was interrupting so I'm saying let him finish his question and then answer so again you can have a delivery truck deliver from speed well alternate plans could be made which don't require the exception and would it be inconvenient or wouldn't be ideal it would not make sense it would not be a good design for this piece of property to not utilize the large amount of Frontage on so to overcome the regulation the board would have to say well we'll give the exception and call it that because of An Inconvenient and lesson ideal plan as opposed to a straight binary no they haven't no the board would have to determine that the the plan overcomes the regulation okay so does not traffic can you let him answer sorry sorry the board does not have to exceptions or anything it's with means of the ordinance that Vehicles making local deliveries can use Dayton Road the site has more Frontage on dayon road than it has on speed well Avenue the the regulation is very clear that trucks picking deliveries in this can usee your own words the intent of the regulation is trucks going from point A to point B can use these roads to get point A to point B right so trucks entering from speed well be well addressed under your premise would be using Dayton Road as a pass through to go from make point A and B as opposed to having to go on Dayton Road to deliver anything on Dayton Road are you saying trucks other than McDonald's trucks would do this I'm not not following you a MC this is only a McDonald's delivery truck right would exit onto Dayton Road which is allowed because they have Frontage you on Dayton Road and it's making a local delivery that's it it doesn't matter what the interest is okay um traffic report on page six there's um I just want to make sure I understand the frequency right page six there's some percentages I imagine this is table four the existing versus proposed I don't know if you able to P it up is it possible to pull that up no oh these are exhibits tra um they're submitted to the board they're just not on this computer okay um just so I'm I understand it correctly if we go along the headers did you intend for it to say inout total for each of a. p.m and Saturday yeah right now it says in out in out total total in out total Y is that an error that's a so also if I'm interpreting correct your data to show current you use data for the small office that is actually active and what friendlies would have if he was active yes okay so even if in this hypothetical that friendlies was open and and functioning you're saying there would be 110% increase in the AM uh trip generation I I don't have any percentages well I just divided it you know it's 30 it's going from 32 under your scenario up to 67 so it's more than doubling the frequency of the hypothetical friendlies in office the PM is going 90 so it would be 92% increase in versus now which is hypothetical it's probably double that because friendlies doesn't exist right now and your Saturday would be 293 increase in uh Tri generation of cars coming and going in that space I'll take your for well it's 79 it's an additional of 79 versus 2 second so is that right that those at least doubling potentially tripling the the trips coming in and out of that space sure I mean that doesn't really matter but sure if it only generated one car existing then it would be 1,000% more I mean the percentages the number of vehicles that affects the but I'm comparing your actually projections of actual vehicle tricks likely to happen versus a non-existing restaurant which you added numbers for so correct at a minimum it's double likelihood against versus now it's much more because FR doesn't have any TR correct and my analysis didn't take any credit for that so the percentage increase I analyzed is infinity perc 50% so can we go to page 12 under page 12 of your report you had indicated that there's the bottom paragraph I think you indicated that sort of the third line down that the burrow of Morris ples will not experience any significant devation in operating conditions with the construction of the project and then went on what is what is the definition of significant versus other uh in terms of what what the dot calls significant is 100 peak hour trip increase and you as that's why I point out the percentages don't matter all three of those are less than 100 so if we weren't changing these driveways we wouldn't even need a DOT permit they' say you don't generate enough traffic care they give us what's called Le of no interest the only reason we need the perit is because we're doing the work that's attra that's the I guess that's the appr that's that's the total dot kind of approval you need for the whole flow that's package if if you don't do any work in their right way and you don't add more than 100 trips they say it's insignificant traffic change and they just give you a letter so the word sorry sorry sorry the word degradation more it's it's more tied to um functionality than like actual physical characteristics of the of the that's the only definition of significance that is out there the the conclusion means that you won't have a signit and degradation the operation take that to me than my name is excuse me is Penny Jones j o n e s and I live at three course and way in Morris Plains and I may be amongst the old the oldest per I maybe the oldest person in this room so I probably have a different kind of question from you have the best shoes I know they're very cool I have in green too Sketchers by the way um at any rate I have to make one statement to lead into my question the statement is that yesterday my husband and I had to go to Walmart at a local shopping center to purchase something and when we left it just there was a Eureka moment because I spotted a McDonald's in the shopping center there the Ure moment was there are no drivethru Lanes in this at this particular McDonald's because it's it's in I mean it's in in a shopping center a strip if you will so my question is this and I have been at only two meetings and I'm not into sta statistics or numbers or any of that kind of thing but I am curious about this and it may have been addressed earlier did McDonalds ever consider not having a drivethru at this particular restaurant that two it's two-part question and it may be irrelevant and it may rhetorical question in a sense so I don't want to keep people here too long but was it ever considered and would it make any difference with this whole business of traffic which seems to be a big concern to a lot of people in this room so it's it's kind of a question for McDonald's and for you the traffic gentleman the question is did they consider not winning drive-throughs I I can't speak for them and I'm certain that they did did not their business model is this those locations that don't have drive-throughs they like to get rid of and get ones with drive-throughs in the same spots it's it's okay thank you and maybe Food For Thought for McDonald in the future if they ever run into the same kind of situation I don't know Daniel Conway you mentioned you work on 31 other McDonald's probably more than that my career but 31 when I had the statistics available to me okay uh how many of those um what's the closest one to here or to this location rough probably Flor Park which one would I apologies go ahead so Floren Park in my opinion doesn't match the location here that's more of a four lane Highway something some faes five or six Lanes um they have a they have they switch to a a two lane uh a two drive-thru location there um so I would just say that that's a little significantly different than this one we got to ask questions that's you know an opinion but questions for them okay uh which of the 31s uh that you worked on would you consider most similar to this location uh you know you would ask that I went through you as that the first I went through and looked how many were on two like just two lane roads and some of them I can't remember but I came up with pretty pretty quickly off the bat six of them uh Mr Dart mentioned U Myrtle Avenue and botin Road in West Long Branch which is a total residential neighborhood delce drive and Malaga is that Mal is Marshall Hill Road in West Milford Essex Street and hackin saac and Broadway and B all two lane roads sort of similar to this and one that I didn't work on where I live inway is also two lane so it's different settings appreciate that um how many of those were du builds these none of them were I wouldn't have to date if they were new builds this was remodels all 31 were remodel yeah that's how I got the parking and traffic data from them is because they were existing BS and my apologies so none of them none that you've worked on were new builds well I've done several new builds but I'm not f i these are ones that I did counts at that existed so there was a new build I couldn't possibly count respect I didn't ask the county I was just curious how many how many McDonald's in this area moris County have you worked on that are new builds Morris County I can't think of any go the top of my head when I'd said probably does new builds most recent one in somet um other the rebuilds uh were they remodel because of traffic issues yeah traffic issues um so I know so I heard you mentioned earlier that uh through McDonald's here tonight uh they referen 7 to 800 uh transactions per day projected projected thank um is it the model of McDonald's to continue to push drive-thru traffic over in stor based on what you've worked on for McDonald's in the past I don't know what their intentions are I just know what's happening that more people are using the drive jump started that in your report uh on page one it said manual traffics is that an actual hand count or do you have a machine or a tool or something that's counting DET turns it's a hand well it's hand out with a electronic board yes somebody uh what is the percentage of error of that tool done that it's not that difficult but there is potential error given that's manually created or manually produced sure can somebody miss a clip here and there or do an extra one yeah of course wouldn't be significant so on page one again you mentioned trip generation it was prepared utilizing trip generation data published by The Institute of Transportation Engineers what is that backup meaning and I'm asking for a little bit of education so I understand you know what I guess I'm hard understanding here is we're using data from a uh from The Institute of Transportation Engineers right and that's kind of a big group of Engineers that get together and share data across the country the state country across the country it's Traffic Engineers Mr M joke before that I should submit this data to that Traffic Engineers submit the data they compile based in Washington DC they compile it manuals that's big that have all these statistics of all these different uses in this case fast driv it's one of the most studied ones does that study break down the true generation based on population density no so it's just the generic of the entire country yes is it possible that that number is uh too low considering the location we're in no I I testified that that number I believe is too high 31 McDonald's that I've count in the Northeast which the it does say if you have local data it's better than our data show that the numbers will be lower okay but I again want to look at the worst case scenario to test to make sure they appreciate that so just out of curiosity will you be submitting that your information for us to review to the board your analytics it it's in the TR of the 31 stores oh no no that was just informational I didn't the traffic report I just wanted to explain that I'm over projecting be the traffic report forgive me I'm confused you use the use the transportation Engineers yes the worst case and you're using that as the worst case but your testimony then is that you really used your owner as the to to justify it's more conservative that their analysis I didn't use my own I testified that I think the numbers that I analyzed in this report are higher than we're really going to see here's uh just a question about your truck this is really a simple question uh Dayton Road is there any restriction or will be there restrictions on the truck parking on Dayton Road if it pulls into the site and site's packed lunch time because they got held up at another location and they look at it and go the only where place I can park is Da mother will we have any restrictions yeah there's no parking SS on so it's already there okay I we understand that that's not always follow right like what other restriction would you want no parking but fair enough fair enough you mentioned the parking there um uh from a Flo traffic flow perspective um what were the what were the standards used to come up with your uh usage numbers so you said um and I don't remember the exact number that you really don't need more than 15 spots at any time oh the parking number I did two ways one was the it just like the trip generation and they have a big manual parking generation I reference that and then I also referenced the 31 other ones that I've actually done physical paring and no matter which way slice it this has enough parking and of the 31 in New Jersey that I counted not the most we ever saw a parked at one time was 30 so one two three four peak hours well four 2 hour period so 8 hours times 31 stores and any instantaneous one time in raway and I think 2017 there were 30 cars pars other than that every other number was there we have 30 spes does that account for people eating in their car it's just a car park there I didn't what they were doing in their car could have been parked to go another place next door it's just the number of cars parked in BL I asked that because of my own statement so I apologize so I ask the question is you could go to flor Park and people sit in their car he that that's why I asked the question car um in your presentation you on page you mention speed Avenue we reference speed Avenue has one directions that's not reality it's just not if you look at speed will Avenue at 7:30 to 9 9:00 a.m. it's at least two minuts where it does open up for the turn Lanes of the signals but across the site furnit here it stripes for 1 million each it may be stripes for that so I don't know if you're aware it's but in the morning by the railroad tracks two lanes are allowed to straight and those those cars can remain and do remain side by side all the way to the traffic L back from coming from the railroad track heading south all the way well the post office has the strike Department spes I ass okay yeah sure that happens tra up where they I guess my point is in your presentation you're calling it a two lane road very rarely is it actually it's usually three at this specific driveway location it's one Lan extion there's no ambiguity it's double yellow Center and that's it that's the way there again I I just respectfully disagree that if I took a video camera and video the next 3 days at 8: a.m. there's going to be three lanes all the way back to Hill okay that's right uh another thing on your presentation page two of you reference Speedwell Avenue again the project site on speed is commercial uh all the sit other sites being is commercial with burough School located opposite the project just north of d uh were you aware that directly across the street is a highly traffic preer prek kindergarten yes okay was that calculated into the trip Lo travel on that location yes I counted all the cards I didn't say I'm not counting that So to that point you mentioned existing traffic volumes you use manual turning movement in your presentation tonight you reference 1300 cars trips per day is that accurate both the two-way volume on speed Wells 1300 to 1400 ballpark an hour an hour an hour even worse um I didn't that the report that's why I asked the question uh you you'd have to add up the numbers and the figure two in the back it shows the volumes if you add up the Northbound volumes and the southbound volumes that's I missed that I well you wouldn't I wouldn't do it either if I was reading it it's only so much I can read um in your manual traffic movement uh I noticed uh May 1st in the 24th you had 7: a.m. to 9:00 a.m. then 4:30 to 6:30 did I miss the lunch hour traffic movement yeah we did uh Saturday lunch we find to be the busiest we've done again all these we've done lunch counts and they tend to be lower than the morning and evening or maybe on par but the roadway volumes are much higher so we're looking for that time the reason I asked that is traffic on speed well and and one of your annalysis only has the afternoon traffic from I think it's 4 to 6 something like that but the 2:00 time 2:30 is when traffic buils that's when it's liter could be stopped most days because of school because of pre kindergarten why wasn't that an because McDonald's that's the time when the delivery is going to be there because nobody's at McDonald's again I'm looking for when the roads its most and McDonald's is at its most and if it works with that then one or the other being at their highest it'll work better you know I want the wor Cas so yeah at school time the road probably gets probably not quite as busy as the PM rush hour maybe it's close but McDonald's is good the PM rush hour is busier usually than the school but let's say it's the same but McDonald's is also busy for dinner so that I looked at that if it works there then it's going to work in 2:30 would disagree I think 2:00 or 3:00 McDonald's would be pretty busy be honest people come out of school and they go feed their kids uh for different reasons uh before sports or other things that's why I would ask maybe we should consider checking those times as part of our analysis um the level of service um this is this is good stuff so so there's a qualitative evaluation of capacity based upon quantitative calculations related to empirical values got to love exactly to me and this is why I'm asking the question empirical value meaning taking based on what we know right and what we know is McDonald's there's 13,000 McDonald's across the country right I am as other people have mentioned concerned that until recently we found out that the 7800 transaction the day is there any way to get more detail about R how many are they how many of a McDonald's at this square footage because that seems to be the net calculation that we're working off of do they do I would like to ask if that's possible to get yeah just I mean for from my end it's basic it's the building size building size traffic bines yeah the traffic BS right to the building size so raway is a five what I say 5,092 foot building so do the math this is a 336 do that math time 710 and you with the numbers a does that store out perform based on its size or is it below average based on its size in terms of transactions or do you know that no I don't have the transaction I just know it was one of the busiest stores okay s they actually bus in the level of service analysis um you mentioned D or better at peak hours at lunchtime dinner what is the lowest value what is the lowest level F if it's more if if the delay is more than 50 seconds it's a level service F which doesn't necessarily mean it's a traffic issue it just means that a driver is waiting for longer than would be comfortable so we're at D today one of the locations or time frames mentioned in your is already at e right and with based on the do's projections a 2 to 4% increase over the next two years that that's included in that understood that's just two years we would could expect probably worse yes no expect that that's what I did Fair um what uh are the factors to increasing traffic on an arterial Road like this what are the biggest effects I know presidential bills are you asking in the world like I don't remember can you narrow this down to this application it's a traffic question yeah but but as to what as to this site or just generally anywhere in the world we can call you can call this site it's I'm talking about speed will so what would be the biggest CA of increase in traffic at a location like this is it a and let me let me try to clean it up a little bit is it a residential construction of multif family units is it a uh commercial building being per uh built with 6 or 700,000 Square ft well 6 or 700,000 ft of commercial would generate a lot more traffic than this moms the residential is a lower traffic generator but it's all again new traffic residential residents coming in and new this McDonald's is going to by large get much of its traffic from people who are already driving up and down speed well today anyway that's why it makes sense here for a heavily traveled location you want to hide pass by gener use that's what done not bring in again so I asked that question because we have roughly 600,000 sare ft of commercial space coming on board about a mile away right how how does that affect or how would that affect traffic at this side that's that's the idea % of progressive growth rates of do is is to sort of Encompass that if there was something being built across the street or right in the immediate area I would take that specifically account when you get a mile away there's no way to forecast what is going to do that's the point of the growth RS and you're wherever you're thinking of there's probably five miles away six more of those it's there's development all over that's why you do so in your table are you suggesting that there are 168 turns estimated new per day on your uh your manual uh turn if I correct my num are correct was 168 oh on Sat on Saturday P new trips so that's 86 cars in 82 out presumably the 82 coming out a part of the 86 coming in so um that's all I have for now thank you jie p o t k a l e s k y um two quick questions one you mentioned that um thought it was unlikely that cars would stack up to wait for their chicken nuggets are you familiar at all with the chickfila on 10 where the traffic goes around the entire parking lot I I am I are they giving away chicken there I don't know what's going on the place is always crowed it's not dissimilar from this in my opinion well it is because of the brand Chick-fil-A is newer to this part of the country so it's got novelty that I assume we eventually wear off as more come but extending that parking lot to traffic which is in a parking lot problem this is not the Gap stud you mentioned um that was done while there was you know obviously during the week school traffic business traffic but an empty bacon lot Gap steud reveal when there's traffic in the McDonald's going in and out what would the Gap steady then be and how does that affect all the other cross streets people trying to get in and out and acrossed well the the gaps are the traffic on speed to see if there the gaps of the traffic one speed well see it it can accommodate but you're the Gap city that you mentioned the times that you mentioned are what it is currently do you know have projections of what it will be when McDonald's is there I don't understand the question so the gaps that you mentioned it was like a sixc gap is available that's what you sawday I count the number of gaps available in the duration so there are you know however many 7c gaps available six in the current traffic flow to see if there's enough to get the McDonald's TR I'm asking what will the gaps be when there's PE traffic going in and out of McDonald's oh I don't know I don't know you I'd have to go back when it's open and do another gas and how will that affect the cars on Dayton or any of the other sides you the hillside across the hill view across the way or further down School traffic coming in and out trying to get across be now well dton we analyze dayon the level Services a d so it's okay and then as you get farther and farther that traffic spreads out more and more and is less and less impact coming out of McDonald's you're going left and right so you're splitting it already I'm saying once McDonald's is in you don't have any projections of what the Gap will be no I don't think there's any way to that that's question Julie Sor um you mentioned um that the drive through traffic takes one two three minutes to get through b on your projections I believe no not based on my projections there's a a MAG publication does studies at fast food restaurants and comparison and for McDonald's the time in the system is average of 4 have you reviewed and considered the 2023 study that USA Today did that cites the average drive-thru weight time at McDonald's is 43.6 seconds which translates to 6.8 minutes it was uh cited as the out of the 10 fast food restaurants that they reviewed so the one I had from Insight is from 2024 it's more recent so I don't that's something you consider that it might be twice as long as what wased in um maybe it is but this is just an average throughout the day as I mentioned before during the peak hours which we're worried about that's when they're maximizing the speed at 11:00 at night if you go to get a hamburger and french fries it's going to take probably 10 minutes you get your because there's there's no urgency and they don't have as much pre-made so these numbers don't really help the USA today or this but it's in you jokingly mentioned that the plan breaks if McDonald's gives food away have you considered the extensive marketing promotions that McDonald's does for example every September 18th they give away cheeseburgers for 50 cents every Friday they give away free medium fries were those increases in traffic due to their marketing promotions factored into the no was it considered for the exit onto speed well to have two lanes separating the exit left and those exiting right similar to what Duncan has for much more modest traffic no I I don't that to me that creates a dangerous condition because the person who's trying to make a right is blocked by the person making a left and vice versa it's better this way you would mention that the spillover traffic when that situation happens and inevitably traffic backs up because people will want to turn left to get back on the speed well you said that the solution is to exit off through Dayton can you walk me through how that happens if traffic's backed up through the uh window how traffic would get around um here to get to Da it being safe I'm saying if there's a car say there's two cars cuz one one car is going to be out on the sidewalk you know that's they're going to pull out as far as they can the second car is here and I get out of the drive and I'm like I'm not waiting for this guy I can make a left and go around go out to and that assumes two cars are backed up but if there's more you said eight cars could be in line at a time if there's several more are people stuck or people kind of turning around in that that you know side of the parking lot next to road is that what's expected to happen no I don't follow what do you I'm just concerned that people who are impatient or behind maybe five cars would find other ways back up or they're not supposed to or turn around incorrectly so that they could exit out that day road because they will motivated to want to get out so oh you're saying if there were for some reason five cars here the like I said the Q length show that that would not be the case you know most most would be two maybe three could you physically if nobody was parked here I guess you physically could make that durn and go back out I mean you'd be going against the flow of traffic but it's physically possible I suppose anything physically be possible during your traffic study how many vehicles tried to pass on the right when there was a vehicle attempting to turn left onto date or a similar side street off of speed well and was that safety pass that was assessed during the study you mean some bypasses somebody w we don't count that specifically but yeah happens when you have the withd it happens it happens did you personally ever try to cross speed during the peak hours during the traffic time yeah on foot oh on foot yeah on foot I didn't know I stood out there I didn't walk across the street I've D I've driven around the neighborhood but were my children acoss the street sorry I've driven around the neighborhood countless times made the left did I ever actually physically walk across the sidewalk I don't no I didn't okay thank you I would have gra a little flag hi Lor 12 lindbur Lane Lor l r i l a u r i e c a n a address 12 lindbur Lane my question relates to the information you provided about the traffic study you did and the the counts and the peak times Etc I noticed they were done in September um and I don't know if you know but we have a premier Central Park Sports Complex that happens during the year where anywhere from 15 to 20 schools from around the area will in either on a week night or on a Saturday for an event and then exit Han Avenue and turn onto seed either way to go back to their District my question is really to go back to their District sorry um at the time you're doing the study in September these events were do you know if any events were happening at the Central Park complex I don't we we did our initial counts in May and then we also sports teams yeah we did our initial counts in may we did the gther study in SE I don't know if there was anything okay so again all right your next question please TR I was going to say in all likelihood school events were not in session and a lot of these Regional tournaments were not happening at that time on the week nights or Saturdays at the time we did the study um um so I I wonder if there's a chance to redo your study at a time when we have those sporting events going on at Central Park because the amount of not only school buses traveling from around the region anywhere from 15 to 20 schools will come to these plus just hundreds of Spectators and cars so if McDonald's is there I expect that some will try to head into the drive-thru and I think those volumes should be looked at so perhaps it can be redone to to look at those times and additional volumes that happen fairly frequently during the Sports Seasons well you you said it yourself more of the traffic during those times more of the customers from McDonald's will already be there they're already those people so know I'm saying the traffic the gaps you studied are not accurate if they're not looking at peak times on we night when when traffic is exiting from Central Park many times a year or on Saturdays when traffic and cars are exiting and school buses exiting from that Central Park complex right I understand and there's all sorts of variations I could go do this study tomorrow and find less gaps I can go do it a week from now and find twice as many you're looking for the yeah you want you want to just make sure that on a typical weekday that it works and by three by Capacity Analysis Gap study and queing Analysis so so the group here can think about that just because of those volumes that we all experience and safety issues the other um point I wanted to make is you mentioned I know that deliveries happen during um off peak hours so between like after breakfast between breakfast and lunch or between lunch and dinner with the exit um the exit driveway from burrow school being just diagonally across the street from Dayton where the truck will be blocking traffic I just wonder if you've taken into consideration coordinating with the town for school uh end times to not pick a 3 p.m. uh time for a delivery to come because that does fall between lunch and dinner and also if there's a delayed opening or uh a half day or something where deliveries could potentially cause a backup of traffic and school buses and danger to a high volume of pedestrians and and buses coming out of the school what did you mean by the truck blocking the truck what what truck well I'm saying pulling out from Dayton but at the same time diagonally AC us the street is the exit Lanes with buses coming out of the burough parking lot in two different directions as well as parent traffic and pedestrians that's all so it's just some equally large vehicles coming out to the road around the same time so just communication with the town is is really um the point there whether that could happen to ensure that we don't have the you know those events happening simultaneously that that I don't I don't know how you know McDonald's communicates but I can tell you that the rules of the road will apply that truck is coming out at the same time as the buses they would have to the buses it's one truck there and it's it's a large truck and it's a small Road I understand I understand and there's ton of kids of Walkers and the pedest and the the crosswalk that's to the left that has the flashing lights that's not happening to the right which is where the bus is and potentially the truck is turning so all right thank you excuse me just a minute it's it's little after 11 we just going to keep going fire thanks next time is [Music] there you [Music] C [Music] [Music] [Music] where [Music] right yeah you you need know me I feel bad for the person running the building right now have to be a crossing guard tomorrow morning just so you know it's unfair that you're keeping this meeting open or because you want to end it now we're not ready to end it we have lot of questions and I got people coming in from the video who want a question they don't want you to miss them so they're driving but I think it's disrespectful just say that Mr wel is out there waiting J my first question is the track trailer making a right out of dating um we the engineer had said have to go into the other Lan this do not lock the Box recommended by the police because of the track trailer making that right hand turn I don't think so I I mean you have to ask the police officer I don't his intention was I assume just so cues don't block it I don't know that the tractor trailer factored into it but I can't say that for sure I don't know what his thinking was I could ask Chief uh the traffic study I'm just learning about this I don't know anything about traffic studies but so it wasn't like a traffic study throughout the day that even decided what PE it was you just did a study during what someone told you the hours work or is it an all day study and then you extracted that information and said these are the peak hours we know from you know the billions of traffic studies that have been done over the past 50 years when the time period's on that's what the it did is so you know it's russan when people Comm to those the time periods that we always so there was no studies during other hours in between but again as someone said earlier you know 2:30 3:00 you would think you're sitting in Russia out traffic and SE Avenue so that may be but at that time McDonald's is doing less again we're looking at the worst case hours knowing that every other hour of the day will be been um I'm also not a traffic expert but I have lived on Dayton Road for 32 years and I can tell you hand turn out of that road is not a 7c gap at best maybe one to two minutes sometimes and there's been longer to to make a leftand turn so I don't know where that 7 second Gap problem I can explain the it's not the amount of time the amount of time it takes is that level of service number the Gap is the distance between a car passing and then the next car so what what this indust standard says is that you won't make a left until there's 7 Seconds of free traffic and which like I said in New Jersey if you're waiting for a 7c gap you're going to have some angry people behind you we're used to smaller gaps so that 7 seconds is conservative it's two different things the gap between traffic on speed well is one thing and what you're talking about is the time it takes to wait for those GS is there a study on takes to make that turn that's that's my traffic state is yes and the typical weight in you're studying the the average time now some sometimes it might take two minutes and I agree I've done plenty of times where I've sat there in a while and I also pull up and look Left Right gone and peak hours that's why we do the Gap study but the average delay coming out of Dayton is uh level service D 34 seconds a so one one person takes two minutes and one person takes 10 seconds the average would be in the middle so that's that's that's during PE you're thinking 34 seconds well you're the expert but I feel like I'm an expert in my own way um the proc the you're making that left and the crosswalk was moved to the northern side and that I believe was mentioned in the last meeting to accommodate the entrance and exit for McDonald's but now making that left in that 7c Gap is putting any pedestrians into a more dangerous situation if they're in that crosswalk Crossing St Avenue because we're going to take our you know chance when we can get it especially peak hours um so I'm not quite sure if um the do agreed with that moving of the crosswalk in the whole picture or was it yes that would be better for the entrance and exit or McDonald's oh would would they have asked it to be moved just in general I I don't know it would never be moved unless McDonald's but I I was just curious if this was a suggestion from the D to accommodate the entrance and exit of McDonald's or a better overall flow it it was a suggestion from moris Plains to do that we asked do if it was okay and they agreed that it made sense you want to space that that Crossing between the McDonald's driveway and D Road can so it makes sense on the other side of the look so it is for the to accommodate the McDonald's entrance and that's that's why I was just curious because I do feel like it's going to make it more dangerous for pedestrians cross it but there's a driveway now that's much closer than D roads that cross so we're making it better but because of where Sor because of where the McDonald's driveway is that makes on the other side if we put the McDonald's driveway right next to d Road which would not be a good design then you flip the cross you know what I mean you know what I'm saying it's just just a space I understand that um but apples and oranges uh 7 to 800 vehicles or 710 vehicles per day entering and exit is nothing compared to what is existing right now um okay the delivery truck in the back it was mentioned there's no crosswalks in the back how are the deliver how is the deliveries made is it just people walking the stuff over through the driveth ls yeah I think have of some s okay so there's 30 to 40 minutes going back and forth you know there's no safety precautions or crosswalks put people it's parking they're not crossing the road it's parking but they're crossing a double drive through yes right what do they crossan you walk in a parking lot all the time how do you go to the grocer store I don't walk in between cars in drive through Lanes I don't think I've ever seen anybody do that but the garbage truck very slow there was never any mention of the garbage truck so if a garbage truck comes in it like obviously it will make a front front or whatever it picks it up and then it has to back up so it's backing up in order to then turn to exit so it's backing up into cars that are possibly coming into the just like every other front loading garbage truck in every commercial Development I've ever seen yes okay and then the maybe my eyes are playing trick on me I don't understand there is space I see for a car to get past if that deliver or the delivery truck is like right up against the cement bit or whatever that is if if they're not right up against it it only looks like there's like maybe a foot or two a window room well there's more this this is just striping we're showing an outside of the drivey L realistically you know a car there's there's a lot more space and this truck is like I said it's the depiction of like the worst case truck they're really not going said that McDonald's uses the full siiz Track and trailer so I would assume that is the worst case um well it works at 13,000 on the McDonald's I'm sure okay and then employee parking would be back there because they're going to be blocked and thank you I guess to have them up against the residentials um and they'll locked in so hopefully their shifts aren't over um and the only other question it's Nots traffic but what other experts will you we'll have a planner after this witness and then we'll conclude our case there's no environmental never re thought that no so 700 to 800 cars a day next your residential neighborhood emissions noise from the Cars nothing of that taking into consideration we abide by all state and local regulations on that Mr so it's 25 after 11 can you hold your questions until the next meeting is it up to me you got a big snack of paper there like please we all want to go home okay well we have questions for next time when's the next meeting next meeting is on Monday it's going to be here Monday the 18th at 7:30 as Rec same same building same room just so you know the notice will be on the website okay the agenda and notice will be on the website for the November 18th meeting second second [Music]