##VIDEO ID:s6AcjL8qDAQ## for you e you have any for perfect much much better thank you very much I I have have the [Music] it was just that's where we left off right moris time green Michel yeah he the guy you're run to yeah I I work for him B Memorial yeah probably it's Michael right yeah um did you cover the story for the hospital what happening in no Kevin's Kevin Kevin's okay yeah it's uh it's an interesting one for sure he was telling me about it the other day yeah I was talking to a all the counsil people in Mor town it's uh it's a tough one right cuz it's going to expand you know bring more population in but it's also Rue exactly which I feel like hisor development and how can you of all the developments how could you be against the hospital exactly right seems like know see how it plays out but I also saw the U the mayor Performing Art Center got for their build as well which is uh which is great my son my son does a lot of stuff there oh really um yeah so he's been in the last three major Productions he's been in and they all got really excited when this got approved give personal space space it's all good things so yeah it's good to see the all the towns expanding definitely in the right direction it's good stuff so appreciate you being here covering these it's good to get get some media coverage so exactly St I do what I can with YouTube and Facebook and having an actual recording great this is yeah yeah well actually uh tonight uh I'm actually streaming live on YouTube yeah uh there is a limitation before about how many subscribers I had to have and I think YouTube changed their terms so between those two things it allowed me to stream live tonight so I'm doing that so hopefully it'll post right to YouTube right it's done it's it's instant only get that so yeah so we'll see how it goes yeah yeah you F both devices just yeah so this this I do just the the live stream whether it's Facebook or YouTube and then this one uh is what ends up on the YouTube channel and that's got more of the close-up shots all that so just uh it's just my iPad and my iPhone yeah you know I actually got a new iPhone the stre oh really want better camera exactly yeah so it's you know pretty good setup but it's to totally amateur like I don't do this living it's just get service you know something as a resident I want to do for it makes sense what do you do for so um I I work I'm a consultant for a bank in New York I'm a tech consultant and I do like a lot of audio video stuff but project man and so yeah job actually I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that I actually just won the election oh congratulations I'm going to be the next Council oh awesome me and one of the things we're hoping to have be able to bring to the town have I was going to say you got to get somebody else to work that's that's my next that's my next uh uh video is going to be asking my yeah cuz I'll be busy why not when you get January 7th whatever the Tuesday think it's late this year I think January 1st I think like Wednesday so then it's the Tuesday so yeah and then it's a it's a threee appointment there for three years see see how it goes right enough people have confidence in me I'll do the best I can see what happens in three years right e e [Music] than no how are you good good how are you good uh it's usually where all the I'm sure you can slide that stuff over if you want to the front row seat B yes what you're actually breing the show am I yeah is it all right uh they kind of sit right there so it doesn't matter where you move your head's kind of right no I got to get out of here yeah sorry about that don't be sorry be happy who's sitting there nobody that's you that's you thank go for it thanks yeah no worries conratulations thank you thank you for app yeah no problem no advocate for that as well the that's thank you you get the coolest gigs ball I just [Music] the yeah only an very short attention span yes yeah yeah which uh which Nutcracker did you get you want an epack or that's great yeah yeah yeah oh yeah absolutely I can't wor how are you [Music] you good thank you [Music] thank you so much i' that is the light fixed on I don't know can you check for your it's G it went out again I had a bad set of BS okay so I know it's it was an out nobody the yeah we're going to put it in the B see what happen see my snowman I love your snowman little nose people were watching them they were looking at like what the hell is that so yeah it's the one on the thank you how are you hey Jason good how are you states to the for stands one nation under God indivisible Justice all I hereby announce I hereby announce that this meeting is being held in accordance with chapter 231 of the open public meeting act proper notice of meeting date has been given to the Mars news meeting and the Mars County daing record and posted on the bulletin board in the burrow Hall this meeting is a Jud proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and the Forum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times call please Mr G pres Mr Gara pres Mrs Kelly Mrs ster m m Mr Kelly Mr here mayor and Mr are there any comments from the public to speak on matters that are not on the agenda tonight seeing none we will close that portion of the meeting paren do we have any correspondence no no correspondence and we have no bills minor site plan committee Rie [Music] committee new business well old business is application td24 McDonald's USA this is continuation of the public hearing good to see you all out again um I just want to go remind everybody's been doing well um know there the board knows there's a lot of interest in this and apprciate as the chair said you keep the quum as if you were in the court proceeding that's really what this is It's a posi judicial proceeding respect everybody these are all residents you're all residents um let them speak you'll all get a chance to speak um one at a time as you can see somebody is uh transcribing so please if you're questioning allow question allow the person to answer before you ask another question um has to be questions not statements everyone will get a chance to speak at the end if you choose um there's lots of interest in this and as in the court proceeding has not be not be repetitive if the questions have been asked by all means ask all the topics but don't just just repeat um and like in court proceeding you can't ask questions sit down get up ask them later everybody gets one shot so the people that asked last time that was your shot there are people in line that didn't get a chance obviously they can but you get one chance and you get to ask everything that you want that being said okay um we'll continue with the questions for the uh traffic expert if you people that were in line before want to get up before we start Madam chairman and thank you I just wanted to um say that I um I got here I don't know about an hour early and I did notice that some of the staff was already here I just wanted to thank the Morris Plains uh burough staff and the professionals that have been setting up this room um this is not where we usually meet and the fact that it's been in this great condition and there's been really no hiccups in the tech and all that I really do as the applicant appreciate and and I thank them um before we get to to the the um questions there was I did receive an email um a couple days ago from a member of the public and they wanted to for me to produce a list of all of the locations of the 30 or so that Mr Parago testified about um at at the prior hearing about other McDonald's locations Etc so what I'm going to do is I'm going to have Mr Parago uh produce that list to your traffic engineer who works for the burough um and then I guess it'll be available um to all of you but what we are not going to do is Mr par is not going to be testifying about those 30 locations we're not he gave his testimony he used an example overall way he mentioned a couple other but he's not going to give testimony on 29 other locations we're just not doing that so the board could take that they could judge the weight of his testimony based on that they could accept it they could throw it out whatever but I'm just tell Mr parag I believe you're still under oath yes okay and Sir Joe Amarosa a m o r OA 20 my questions are about the traffic report okay can you describe more the traffic volume data collection process you said it was a digital technology uh our counters is a electron board the previous question was about the error in the count board you said minimal error is that correct the board shouldn't have anywhere the person counting could you know be off a little bit but they're generally pretty good can we describe that as human era sure in your experience do people typically overcount or under count I don't know if there's one way or the other if anything I'd say over because you hit the button an extra time but for the most part it's accurate we're not talking big variations with human not substantial about in fact the analysis did you collect data on travel speeds along speed well no why not it's not relevant to capacity CES did you analyze or study Traffic Safety at the site the safety of the proposed McDonald's yes and we did at the request of your board traffic engineer requests crash data there was basically none three crashes in three years are existing travel speeds relevant to safety depends what your analyzing for analyzing the operation of Bose McDonald's no for the peak periods you chose to collect traffic L data how did you pick those times of day The 7 to 7 to 9 and 4:30 to 6:30 on on a weekday it's a traffic engineering industry standard it's what the it uses 7 to n and they actually use four to six but I always found that you never 430 usually wasn't part of the peak so we use 4:30 to 6:30 and find that works better did you collect a straight line count of traffic volumes a long speed well yes through volumes yes did you collect the line count long speed well for a 24hour period no so what is your confidence level that 7 to9 and 4:30 to 6:30 are truly the 2hour peak periods 25 years of experience the entire traffic engineering industry the standard practice of how we do things did you measure Q length among people Q lengths from where down P traffic signals yeah we did the Gap study which would include the the bages can you further describe how the gap were counted or collected I believe we've already been over the Gap study um for about a half hour during the last hearing Mr Osa and I know you were here so you heard it do you have a new question about it because he did go over the methods and how the Gap study works all right I guess I didn't write that down excuse me I guess I didn't take note of he he described the methodology yes he did for the trip generation you said 710 vehicles for the peak hour and that was the the we a. daily 710 was the daily V yeah good point do you have the daily trip generation for Saturday and Sunday um I can find it it's it's lower 710 was the the highest and like I said that comport McDonald's IND SP the independent variable used was the gross floor area of McDonald's yes are there other options for that calculation for trip generation they may have the proceeds not positive but the standard for New Jersey do and the industry standard is the did you request crash records from NJ do no from the police department on the site plan can you explain how the crosswalk relocation to the north health safety sorry I'm just trying to get L up so we don't see the crosswalks make sense when I'm talking respond too quickly if you put the crosswalk between where it is today it's sort of two driveways which is just sort of like it is today and closer to them closer to the driveway so we wanted to evenly space it between the site driveway and date Road and capture the opposite corner of the speed well this was actually at the suggestion of the burrow we took it to New Jersey do they agreed same thing yeah this is a better location with this configuration because remember right now there's a driveway right next to where this crosswalk is we're getting rid of that driveway so that's why it makes more sense where it is can you what's the offset between your driveway and Hill viw from Center Line to Center Line yes about 50 ft I would estimate does that comply with New Jersey access management code yes they don't have they don't have anything about the driveways on the opposite side they we're happy with the location of the driveway we had our pre- application meeting we need to be 12 from the property line and 24 ft from the chasing driveways on our side in your traffic data collection did you count bicyclists we if there were any we would have but I don't believe there were any we count the pedestrians did you factor the traffic data you collected for seasonality or month of year not took C school was open which is would be a typical day for this location back to the report for your uh drive for queuing analis what step in the Drive-Thru process is the uh slowest the speaker or pickup or payment for an individual vehicle it's the speaker it's the ordering at the speaker which is why they like that's why mdon are switching to the two Lan so they can get that through faster because they're able to deliver the food out the window quicker than take the orders and that's what your service ratees describing the step yes for the drive-thru queuing analysis what did you use as a design vehicle passenger car 18t length it's it's 20 ft spacing between vehicle to vehicle and drive throughs we've done to verify that so the little car that's shown here is the AST design vehicle which I believe 19 ft long but the spacing distance we use is 20 ft because that's what we see there how does that c calculation get impacted if there's a a long truck or something longer than there's probably also cars that are shorter than 20 ft in there don't aage 20t when The Pedestrian pushes the button at the rectangular rapid flashing Beacon can you describe what happens to traffic well they'll they'll visibly see the the beacon flashing when somebody's looking across the road much higher visibility than the little orange flags that are how would that device impact congestion on speed well assuming that The Pedestrian volumes are similar will be any different impact than you have today it's going to be safer that's the bottom point in your experience does that device attract more pedestrians to cross at that location been aware of any studies that show that are we able to discuss the truck turning drawings those three that was an exhibit for the site engineer so no we're not going to have any more testimony on that plus Mr Parago already testified to that at the last hearing the truck turned I remember it and you were there so it happened you consider a right in right out driveway speed for your site access no any consideration for restriping Speed well for a turn lane in both right turn Northbound left turn southbound if NJ do makes us do that we'll have to do it it's up to them their Road uh just to clarify what you said before you just looked at traffic operations there's no consideration for Traffic Safety there is considerations for Traffic Safety relative to the application divorce I didn't do a a corridor study of speed well Avenue that would be a whole different thing this was to ensure that this project can be built and operate thank you welcome H Conor to Tower Hill Road in Mars Plains first I want to be sure I'm I'm up to date in terms of people exiting the property either either the McDonald's property or Dayton Road they can go right or left on speed well there's no that's correct no modification correct now Mr I'm not going to ask our our expert to talk about 31 McDonald's but he did site six specifically as similar there were mail West Bridge and West mil yeah two l two two L but and so I have I've looked at them carefully and I've done screenshots and I have research that I would like to submit to the board if anyone is interested um and I'll ask later if there's a mechanism to do that but the one thing that jumped out of me is they all have some kind of modification of guidance for traffic it's either right lane only traffic I I hate interrupt but you can only ask questions oh I'll get to it give me a minute okay or there's a turning lane so the question is was that ever considered for the Mars CLS property or would it ever as as I mentioned the last question there if NJ do asks us to rest the road and put tney Wings we'll have to do that it's not necessary based on my analysis our pre-application meeting they didn't indicate any need to do that but when the application is actually put forward we have to do what they say relative to the crosswalk the lighting the do not block all that stuff it's their M so right left no no problem from your point of view thank you um my other question was um from the traffic report the October 9th traffic report you you made clear that the NG it's going to traffic's going to go up no matter what 2% a year is is the NJ do background growth rate table Yeah and then goes on to say through consultation with the Mars L FAL planning board staff there are no other developments in the vicinity of the site that have been approved but not yet constructed that are identified as significant traffic generators then I believe it was after this report came out at least the first became public in mid October New Jersey's fourth round of recommended affordable housing obligations which Mars claimed to be tasked with 341 affordable units the whole thing with the builders and if we add in Mar Township to and that's potential 10,730 new units would this new information be something you'd go back for a revised traffic study um and take into account the traffic from those obligations no that's exactly what that 34 to 2% even though a holding round of obligations what and and then lastly um you said in in your testimony that there's actually plenty of rule that the site can handle a lot of traffic that the additional McDonald's traffic it was a an optimistic and a Rosy picture and you went forward two years if something should happen whether it could be foreseen or not but year three year four and we've got G and we've got safety and we've got and we've got you know accidents what remedy in your experience as a traffic expert does a town have if the pop predictions prove not to have played out that way what can they do the McDonald's is there the track is there I I'm not sure what what headaches from because of the McDonald's you're I'm saying it's more difficult to turn out I mean I think people would just make a right turn instead of a left turn it's it's not something that's going to be problematic to anything but the operation of the McDonald's now if you're talking about speed well Avenue as a whole I know I'm not studying speed well Avenue I'm studying McDonald's but those things would be improved that's why we all pay taxes you know theway improvements or or anything who know got you thank you may I submit my research into if if it's relevant you can do it at the time where you can speak and and make statements thank you traffic we have 700 cars oh sorry 700 cars pulling in and out of McDonald's a day possibly okay how will that impact traffic on speedwall particularly cars pulling in which have to slow down a little bit that was the whole testimony that I gave the last hearing that's what the whole traffic rep is about how that's specifically what I aniz this will work with the traffic weed so there will be no further impact no substantial impact no okay is there the possibility of more traffic accidents with people pulling in and pulling out I don't believe so I believe what we're doing would would actually make this site safer in terms of eliminating a driveway providing a a better crosswalk that flashing Beacon which are make improvements we're permitted use here and don't necessarily need to do those things excuse me please let him answer I know you pretty good please let him answer and then yes okay I'm just a little I'm just a little confused because I would think with that many cars pulling in and out there's the potential for some accidents coming in and out of the driveway that that goes for any driveway or access point we we design it to have proper visibility and as safe as possible but any driveway has that potential we're getting rid of one we're going from two driveways to one so we're making that better okay um the tractor trailer pulling out on to Dayton Road and now there are cars at the top of the box and the end of the box so the Box is open okay does the tractor trailer pull out into the box you mean that do not block the box right it pulls out just like any other car when there's when there's a gap in traffic okay but the tractor trailer is likely then to block the box if the cars are are at either end of the box then the police could give him a ticket CU it's not supposed to block the bus Ronald Jer three Thompson way thank you Mr justy here thank you for the planning board for making decisions uh my questions have to do with the the parking how many cars I think you said eight two lines of four at the ordering kiosk yeah before you get to that crosswalk yeah right and how many McDonald's attendants are taking those orders inside I don't I don't know maybe maybe one it's it's magic to me that they figure it all out they do it and and how long is the ordering process based based on the setup that they have they they can theoretically process 150 to 180 vehicles per hour through there so if you if you do the math it's about 48 seconds per Lane 24 seconds an hour L list of a minute for each order yeah yeah okay and then 710 cars per day coming in over a 17h hour period averages to about 42 cars per hour does that sound about right on average oh if if they were spread out evenly I suppose yeah and then at peak hours it might be up to 60 cars per hour or one per minute proba would guess yeah the peak hours it's busier and then off hours it's hard and so at a really busy where do those cars stop if there are eight cars ordered in the order L where do those cars go behind my testimony the last time was you know that we don't believe that there's going to be an issue in terms of the queuing but you could still fit past that back of that four more cars before you were out and speed out so there is an extra buffer if that were to happen but the prob testified the last time with our queuing model and based on my experience other the probability of it getting past that crosswalk is 0.18% so it would be incredibly improved thank you thank you Don younger 10 wal way got a few questions uh first of which is generally what is the purpose of a traffic study and specifically why does McDonald's requested paper there are all kinds of different traffic studies and for this particular case the purpose of the traffic study is to determine what conditions of traffic would be like with and without the McDonald's and and determine if there's any change that would warrant some improvement so so it's say that this is to sort of prob future conditions in a way that lets them proactively make changes to to benefit uh and I guess I question first is that what I'm saying and second to benefit McDonald's burrow Mutual benefit how does it usually how is it usually Frank the benefit the motoring okay um a clarification question from your report uh you wrote traffic associated with lu 934 is not 100% newly generated rather a portion of traffic is diverted from the existing traffic stream on the and this is what I'm asking about the adjacent roadway Network um does that mean speed well does that mean Route 10 and Handover what is adjacent be speedball only but pass by is just speed well you will get some people who will convert off in your road thank okay uh referring specifically to table four probably have um on table four I'm I'm focusing primar on the morning the the afternoon brush would be similar am I right to read that there would be 35 additional primary trips in the morning and 27 in in 30 35 cars a trip is the vehicle entering or exiting so one car theoretically is two trips so 35 more cars 35 additional cars yes okay um you know future revision I don't know how to face this as a question we you care to know that your calling headers are uh this tyo I I can you confirm it's in out total in out total it it is I'm a traffic expert not a Microsoft board expert I don't know why it does these um I think this is probably my last uh forcation question um probably these numbers in table four is is the way that they were generated that you took your count of cars on May 1st fed it into the um Institute of Transportation engineers trip generation 11 Edition and that sort of yielded these predictions the the the it trip generation projects those numbers based on the size of the building on the size of the building yes is it related to the uh traffic count you did um on May 1 put the two put the two together okay oh I'm sorry you put the two together to the the the specific location the counts that we do is what component and then the projections of how much traffic site will generate we bring them together to do analysis that's how we the the the numbers are based on the size of the building and the type of use okay so again uh it's referring to for um am I correct that 69 total cars um would would be predicted to be counted during the morning Peak out yes going into the m going into and then hour and then most of them know the numbers don't balance because it's statistics but yes fair enough um when you Goot peak hour I want to clarify the term how I was wrong about that would be clarification much sorry the term hour do you mean 60 Minutes or do you mean the morning rush like using hour to indicate 7 to 9:00 a.m. 60 Minutes 60 minutes okay so between 7 and 8 there would be approximately 69 additional car or sorry total cars and between eight and nine there would be 69 total cars some number less between between whatever we again we assume that the peak hour that it gives me would happen at the same time as the roadways peak hour because we want to be conservative and that may not be the case but the busiest hour in McDonald's would have 69 cars coming in the next hour might have 62 the hour before that might have 68 we look at the peak on Peak because any other time it's going to be less traffic better results okay and bearing that in mind Mr V testified last week predicts about 710 cars per day is that correct itd is uh no I don't think that you I I had I did first of all I was giving information I received and it was I think a range of transactions per day is that what you're talking about uh yes he he testified about the cars I testified about the transactions and it was a range okay I didn't I didn't say so that was Mr Paro okay Mr cars yeah about 710s okay so during the peak hour there are about 70 cars per hour and there are about 15 hours of operation um the 6 a.m. to to 11:00 p.m. um what does the trip volume look like during off peak hours that allows it to reach that total of 700 or so cars if the peak hour has about 70 but Le less than the peak that's the point every other hour of the day you can pick any snapshot any other hour of the day and it'll be less than 69 cars coming in the B using the example same thing with speed well have I do the council pick the busiest hour there and I match them up make them say that they happen at the same time it might not be the case it might be offset but we're looking at the absolute worst case so this way I know every other hour of the day it's going to be some combination that's less gring that between Z and 70 is a pretty broad range in order to add up to about 700 within those 15 hours is it safe to say you probably need 50 to 60 cars at 6:00 a.m. and at 10 p.m. and at 1 p.m. and at 10: a.m. in order to add up to about 700 I I don't know I never really thought about it that way but less than the peak okay following that train of thought um I actually want to follow on what Mr caria asked last week um so if there are about 70 cars per hour at peak hours and there are about 10 to 15 employees as mrte testified um during those peak hours um on the regular shifts we assume about5 or $10 per car this is sort of back of the envelope sort of Sanity check ma where does the overhead the utilities the taxes the franchise fees what happens in the off peak there are fewer cars to generate the revenue that the the 70 cars per hour Peak would have to have to add up to that's not a question for that's not a question for him okay when you when you were analyzing your data did did you think in terms of these off peak hours and and having how how the numbers would how did you choose May first uh for the um weekday observation just check the school calendar our school is open you know some we get hired to do the traffic study and when the plans are far enough long to get too old make a determination make sure we're getting a typical day uh do you all the weather was that day I I don't our counters write it down usually but I don't we don't go if it's snowing or you know if there's wild thunderstorms you know has to be typal um do you know what time school lets out ref School uh I I have it in here Som I don't know what the CLP my head but yeah we check all that do you typically do only one observation date on no weekday granted the weekend is a different date do you do only one observation day for application typically yeah is that industry standard yes okay can you testify last week you don't get statistics understand that um have you you come across the term statistical power I'm sorry statistical power I me no no no I'm not just fine I I'm I'm curious if the idea of multiple observations um was something that you were would have hoped to do time allowing is that something that you want to incorporate into your practice we we do make multiple observations we only physically sit there for the full two hours the guy with the board one one time to get the numbers to get the data of course they fluctuate from day to day that's why we build in all these levels of conser assuming the Peaks on on the peak using these it numbers that I testified to last time are higher than does all those things are built in to be conservative but you're looking for the typical day it would be disingenuous if I did my counseling Thanksgiving know same way it would be disingenuous if I did my counsel in a day when there was a massive you know performance going on in town or something like that we're looking for the typical day and we build in conservative measures to make sure that we cover those variables What You observe that day um approximately in each hour of observation there were 1,400 cars that justified last week two-way volume yeah two okay thank question uh so that was in each Direction yeah 1300 to 1400 about yeah okay um do you have a lot more we have about 12 people behind you yes you have a lot more so your second observation on September 12 did you use those numbers in the it trip generation algorithm those the the second observations were the Gap studies so we weren't counting the volumes we were counting we were measuring the gaps in tra a different sort of thing so in appendix D um where you have your Gap analysis observations um that that's what generated Table Six Gap analysis that's St yeah yes uh there's a volume column I think it's the second column in appendix D um is that the I assume the number of cars no it's not we' actually had a big debate on what that actually is in the office because we're not counting the volume when we do that you're holding down buttons essentially when there's cars blocking the driveway and you're letting it go when there's not and the machines measuring the gaps as you're holding it down the thing's counting 1 2 3 4 5 six even if it's just one car sitting there because they're backed up so it's that's that's it's trying to estimate a volume I guess but it's not accurate it's not a a volume count the volume counts are separate I don't know why it does that it's the software okay it's a good question it took us a little bit to figure out what was going there too doing these Gap studies with these boards but yeah it's not it's just it's just a rolling count that's not real and there okay answer my question does the it analysis or did you in in your report look into the effect of the road being nearest capacity on these gaps ask that again I'm not sure is is there a role of how close the road is to it capacity cars are on the road at any given time what effect that would have on the gaps um no we're looking at the gaps from when the road's at its busiest time in a hypothetical where there is additional traffic because of the the fact that some of the traffic has passed by and some of it is newly generated trips if the road was to be close to its capacity would using L's term traffic would the traffic increase linearly or exponentially I I don't understand the question mean does the delay increase linearly exponentially it's really not correct would the gaps become smaller as the cars are sort of stat oh as closer together well that also has to do with the speed of traveling but yeah I mean more cars are going to be less gaps that's why we do do Gap study okay and you said you didn't look at traffic speeds right no it's based on time so if traffic gets more compact generally worse as as you get closer to capacity your Gap analysis show that that would not be the casee because there's plenty of capacity left on on our roads specifically on speed there's enough gaps in the traffic flow and speed well thanks to the two traffic signals on either end to accommodate traffic exiting froms more than enough to come traffic exi froms this just a reminder for you and some of the other people who are asking questions um off-site traffic is never ground for denial of a permitted use application let me say that one more time off-site traffic is never grounds for denial of a permitted use application so everyone could continue to ask questions on it it's fine Mr Pary here but um the offside traffic is not really although we have a traffic report we're we're required to submit the offsite traffic um is handled on the level of the governing body when they allow a permitted use they allow a permitted use because in their opinion it can accommodate the use I just wanted I don't know if everyone knows that but that's what the law is but go ahead and continue last question actually given what you've observed outside of the traffic observation in in this room in the the zist of ples how do you reconcile what you observed with what you're hearing what you observed on speed what you're hearing now how do you why do you think that there is a discrepancy between your observed numbers and our lived experience I haven't heard anybody say they've done a gap study or these Capacity Analysis I mean I'm not saying that speed no traffic it's a busy congested Road there's no doubt about it that's why we do all these studies to make sure that it can accommodate this Redevelopment of this piece of property okay thank you thank you Tom battes b a t t a g l i e s e to Cutler Road um so last week you stated on parking that there are 30 physical parking spaces you said there were two um two credits for the the EV um so I believe there are five spots parking spots reserved for delivery vehicles like rubhub and so forth um so that would bring it down to 25 spots uh for customers coming in to have capacity and then we were told that there will be up to 12 employees that could be on during peak hours um and when a truck there they're unloading you have the potential to block three to four parking spots so if all employees need a spot and there's a truck unloading doesn't that mean there's only about 10 parking spaces available uh for customers or if there's no truck 13 as opposed to the 30 that you're talking about that's I guess maybe all I know is that we we use research data of parking counts of actual Park cars whether they're an Uber guy or employee whatever physical number of parked cars and based on all that statistical data from the it how many U restaurants past few restaurants they've studied and based on my studies there way more parking than is necessary here 30 be more than enough all right um I to that point I know so you were looking at statistical analysis that showed less than a 1% chance 01 to whatever it was of running running out of parking space and drivethru capacity so you had less than 1% for both of those scenarios um but some not the parking the drive-thru queue extending beyond the capacity under that crosswalk one% what was the percent chance then on the parking there's no study for the percent chance but in my opinion zero okay so there was some discussion last time about Central Park um that we have right around the corner um your traffic study didn't take that conveniently in my opinion overlooked this fact um and at times of the day you have you know tons of cars potential bosses uh coming off with lots of hungry kids that would probably like to go to McDonald's um so does your statistical model You Know cover something like that I know you were talking about ra and the busiest Regional McDonald's and so forth I don't think there's a sports complex in that area so I think that's the concern here with that you know with the traffic the drive-thru overflows and we have situations like that it's not just a a oncee celebration or whatever as you wereing to before this is constant during the uh you know the nice weather Season Sports season basically yeah and again we we're looking at a typical day we build in several levels of conservative assessments and our analysis to account for those sorts of variations and deviations it's all accounted for and who knows May 1 maybe there was something in that Sports Complex I wouldn't know can you tell me I don't think at those times that I think that's that's the concern so it is actually a typical situation that hasn't been brought into the model here um so what would happen if we have cars coming from Central Park and then you have a sto over onto the traffic now we're talking about traffic building up on speed or you're a traffic engineer asked me that the last time and in the unusual case where the drivethru was backed up what would happen and I said people wouldn't move on they'd go to a different McDonald's they'd go park they wouldn't send in a drivethru I mean how how badly do you want chicken nuggets that you sit the middle of the road that's your opinion though right reasonable he's an expert so that's what he's here for he's here to give his opinions we I'm sorry what's the problem have you ever seen have you ever been driving down some Road and see a drive-thru backing out onto a highway maybe tri- but not okay um so it's still not clear to me what would happen if a bus arrived again from the Central Park we get buses multiple many buses that come out at a time from tracks soccer meets and so sir that question been asked several times I know and it still hasn't been answered well then that's all then then you've got your answer cuz he's he's testified to this to the prior hearing a couple times they had questions about buses this is the first time I've come up to address no no but I'm saying the question of buses has been asked at least two or three times and if you guys if you don't like the answer I'm sorry but he's answer you're not entitled to the answer you want he gave you the answer that he testified to can you repeat the answer because I'm sorry doesn't he doesn't have to repeat it for I I if I could please please don't please don't please don't everybody yeah we know as I said at the beginning go back to that I know there's interested please there's two people talking let them talk don't just you wouldn't do that in a courtroom you wouldn't do that there have respect for people up here don't just shut people down really appreciate take the down just that the two people that are speaking speak I I'm not going to jump into this but the question and the concern about children in school buses where they would go and how many have been raised it want to one more time but it it has been but that's please respect everybody our our buses allowed in the lot I still don't have an answer it seems like no one else remembers either so maybe you could refresh our mind no the site is not designed to accommodate buses okay so what happens if a bus comes up to the they'll have to find someplace else to park so bus is not going to come into the site the bus drivers know where they can take the bus and where they can't okay um another question that's been put off this you told me that Mr told me ask the traffic engineer here so about fire and emergency vehicles if the truck is on loading can you please explain on this diagram here uh where trucks would park there's no emergency Zone that's been designated it appears how would they have safe access if if a fire truck had to come onto the site to fight fire in either of the driver house if a truck is unloading it's not going to park in AP parking space it's too big I understand that but there's no fire zone there's no no designated loading zone and you're telling me that it's this is safe if there's an emergency to out emergency vehicles as large as fire trucks and out that's what I'm telling you yes are you able to depict that with the software that you use here maybe for the next meeting we depicted a tractor trailer which is bigger and less maneuverable than a fire truck so they can make it fire truck can you bring the picture up with the tractor trailer so please uh please explain to me the fire would uh would go if there's the trucks are in the truck is in the back there oh you're saying the fire truck comes on the site at the same time the truck is delivery the delivery driver doesn't Evacuate the fire just leaves the truck it can still fit because this is all open pavement back here that's the drive-thru area right right so cars are getting food at the drive through while buildings burning is that the scenario I mean isn't there overhead Things That Go they have a certain clearance on the DOR yeah and if the building's on fire they truck will break them down if they have to this application was sent to the fire department and they have no comments on the uh on the site plan or any of the movements so um if they did have comments the fire department we would absolutely address them and we would make it exactly how they wanted but they didn't have any comments I understand the fire department can't make official decision until after the final design is approved is that not the case no so do you have a statement from the fire department that shows yes it was they have the statement that says no comments and it's written right on the paper no comments so are you familiar with moris Blain's ordinance chapter 13 article 414 that describes fire zone requirements uh for Land Development don't you have to comply with that code apparently not if the fire department in N work could you please get a specific response to that for the next meeting from the fire department in writing we have it in writing the fire department review the plans and confirm they don't have any comments I'll I'll hop B not testifying at all all applications all sine applications go to the police department and to the fire department and to the extent that there is anything in the record prob SP he didn't testify as to it but I'm sure that um anything that would be in in the record we have a copy of it next time but they all go and uniformly is one of the conditions whenever the board votes is you always have to comply whatever whatever the police department wants and whatever the fire department wants that that's always that's always a are you familiar with this fire regulation is anybody familiar with it because only one person please let me speak there's only one person you can ask questions still so is there can you kindly look into that fire regulation because it discusses fires and requirements for Land Development I'm not a fire expert your fire department is and they're okay to that the way it is can can we get the official statement from the fire dep because we don't have record that it's in the record it was it was issued by the fire department it's available to you you can send a request thing to get a copy of it and we'll bring a copy next meeting you have it Josh let me see that please thank you Josh has everything he's amazing this is a uh letter dated June 7th 2024 this is from burrow moris Plains um and I'll read it into the record um in accordance with Section 13- 6301 of the Land Development ordance the above listed application is being sent to your office for report and recommendation should you wish to comment on this application please reply to this office by June 21 2024 it is addressed to Mr Phil hul fire code sub Fire subcode official or Morris Plains and then Mr wil writes on this document reviewed 6124 no comments and then he signed it that's the record it says reviewed but this is not the final design correct so no listen it's you're going to have to ask the fire chief this says no comments when land use lingo they have no comments no comments to the application no recommendations you know pursuing to code whatever they did he just said no comments us that's a clean bill help but if you have follow-ups by all means contact the fire par okay and if we do that bring that into next meeting with the planner for instance that's acceptable in terms of process I'm going to hop in Mr probably was too indulgent questions go to the witness that's it he didn't testify about uh fire you can ask him anything you want on his testimony of his report but please let me speak and if you want to bring in anything if you want to have an expert or if you want to bring in and I and I mean this truthfully if there is something for you to bring to the board's attention when it's time for you to give testimony by all means do but you can only ask witness what he did testify to and what is in his report okay thank you that was questions thanks than yous 24 I'm curious fivery driv antip location I don't have that breakdown does anybody generate that have that I I don't know the more the better those Uber drivers are picking up multiple ERS so they're taking traffic off the road and taking parking to respectfully disree because you're also thinking about speed and time and getting to the next deliver uh do you know the geographic delivery area for this location for the brige driver because I'm and the reason I asked that question I think that's attracting traffic to the site no I don't know at Peak time um how if I'm traveling south found on speed well and I want a Happy Meal how long would I have to wait to make a left turn into onto the property that left turn movement is about 10c delay during PE time got my Happy Meal now at Peak time how long would it take me to Exit the site and return Southbound left out the worst PE uh it's 47 seconds on average might take a minute and might taking no time but the average of 47 seconds I know you've studied vehicle traffic but you did you take into consideration or generate any estimates on how many children from the school across the street will walk to the site I believe it's an elementary school so hopefully do please please let one person speaking of time work reporter we need to have it one person I appreciate it thank you go ahead it's an elementary school so presumably they'd be walking with their parents to the McDonald's but the it statistics I testified to the last time said about 10 pedestrian trips in hours were a store of this size not necessarily all coming across the street but 10 walkers from the area would your analysis change if you were aware that it was a Elementary and Middle School no it's not my analysis it's the it analysis um I'd like some specifics on the uh signal system on the relocated crosswalk What specifically that looks like what the duration is for a pedestrian to be able to cross while that flashes or sure it's um Sim I'm sorry interrupt do you have any or anything specific it's in the site the the drawings are in the materials that we submitted so they're available for your review if you'd like to go see okay what they look like don't describe it yeah it's similar you see The Pedestrian signs that are now they're now right it's like a yellow um diamond shaped sign by Lo same sort of sign is that with an arrow pointing down to show you what the crossb is but there's two black bars that have LED lights in them we thought normally when you get to the crosswalk and going AC cross you push a button and those Flash and you get the attention of drivers that hey somebody's trying to cross the street and and do you have any any data can you refer us to any ethicacy studies on how effective those yeah the Federal Highway Administration put out a fact sheet on them I actually printed it because I thought that would be interesting but they're they increase yield rates by up to 98% so drivers are supposed to stop but they may not necessarily see the little orange flags that you guys have there now they're going to see these flashing lights this wider crosswalk that's got to be lit to certain standards it's going to be the the state-of-the-art UN signalized Crossing and can you submit your studies that we would be able to review the statistics that you have are based on federal stud it's the Federal Highway Administration you can just Google it that's what I did thank you schroer 97 Maple Avenue had some followup questions just to um your questions about the the itg ameran methodology so exactly how does the it account for the prox of a school to this site I think I heard you just say that they take into account only the size of the building and the nature of the use is that right right okay so what data points when my general understanding about the it calculations is that you're plugging in some variables and it's spitting out these uh trick generation estimates so what are the variables that you plug in other than the size of the building and the of the use for for this particular that it's the size of the building and the use that's it okay is it true that much of the data underlying those it estimates is voluntarily submitted by volunteers Yeah by Traffic Engineers and is it true that some of that data is quite old even from like the 1980s and 1990s and and does that affect your confidence in the trip generation estimates yeah I mean we've we've done our own in this area and find that the ID numbers are too high but so you're not controlling for any local realities of our town not even the the size of our population or the number of commuters that are cutting through our town no I looked at the worst case scenario the full it Universe even though I think the reality will be less than those and that's another way of being conservative like I mentioned before to account for variations in traffic flows so the numbers that are getting used to calculate the trip generation estimates for our area are pulled Nationwide are they also pulled internationally Nationwide there might be some Canada data points of North America okay so observations and and data about what happens say in Montana is going to be carried over and applied to what we could expect here in New Jersey yep that's why it pushes the numbers High a lot less uh Transit cabs and breeds in Montana what do you think gives a better indicator of what we could expect in terms of cars entering and exiting this site the it trip generation estimates that are informed by this very old and general data that's not informed by our region characteristics or actual numbers that could be provided by McDonald's based on its experience running 14,000 restaurants in the United States I I think the numbers provided by McDonald's would be more accurate but as Traffic Engineers were bound to use the higher numbers from the it again being conservative population is not a variable did you conduct any interviews with anyone that's familiar with the local driving habits and Norms of our area so you simply relied on two hours of traffic counts for each time period that was evaluated yes did it occur to you to generate data for a time that would um overlap the School dismissal no because the traffic voles at McDonald's during school dis are much lower again I'm not looking at I'm not analing analizing this but don't you think that given that the school actually has students up through 8th grade wouldn't you think that that would increase the number of pedestrians that you counted it did probably might and that's why we're making these big improvements to pedestrian Crossing to make it safer I think he's he's just for the future Witnesses he's testified about the school pedestrians and the um any increase a couple times now so so the it rates do not account for the new luxury apartments that are being built on rout 10 or any other development the it rat no how would you confirm that the 2% growth rate was appropriate in view of our local circumstances it's it's published by New Jersey d by count typ okay but is there any calculus that goes into evaluating whether you should apply a higher grow we given our local development yes that's why we ask if there's any specific local developments that are being built in the immediate vicinity that would have an impact we would want to account for them and there's not but I think I read in your report that you you concluded that there are no developments okay I didn't conclude it those the okay okay so there wasn't any um information given to you about the new apartments that are being constructed on Route 10 or the new affordable housing that's coming he's answered that question making can you give an example of what would Merit a higher growth rate if New Jersey the numbers which they actually did recently it was lower if I did this study a year ago a 1% rate you said before that these trip Generations are are averages right that was your explanation for collecting data on one day over the SP of two hours right um and you said that that's just an average two different things the the the it numbers are the average Peak so the busiest several in this case I just looked it's 96 different fast food restaurants that you looked at the busiest hour the average of the busiest hour those so with the understanding that this is just the average and I think you concluded that it's a level of service e on Saturday yeah right um what how much margin is there between that level and level of service at uh and this three three more seconds 50 seconds is an F this is 47 but that's that's why we do the other that's why we look at the queuing and the Gap studies because we want to test every possible scenario did you consult with members of the Morris Plains Traffic Safety Committee to better understand our local traffic condition no and your study doesn't account for the McD McDonald's corporate strategy for increasing delivery and drive-thru are you aware of the crosswalk enforcement study that was performed by our local police officer on August 27th during which it stopped 42 for failing to yield the pedestrians and during which it observed over 100 violations that it could not but could not stop all of them I didn't see that if you had been aware of that study would that have impacted your conclusions it did that's why the crosswalk was when we're putting the the we trying to fix that Oh I thought that was a do recommendation no it was a burrow recommendation because of that study we dot has to allow us to do it as they can you explain the the inconsistency between the I don't know if you said 710 and somebody said 700 to 800 I can't keep track who testified to what but we have this this range of expected transactions a day is the number of cars okay the 700 to 800 is transactions so you know some people are going to walk they won't take a car some people have three people in a car that each make a separate transaction so good right have you attempted with whoever is The Keeper of the information from McDonald's have you attempted to square that with their prior for Testimony in another planning board hearing in Illinois McDonald's does a thousand transactions a day that may be the case in aage McDonald's sure okay this one less than the average at at 700 to 800 that's what they're projecting I guess you said that I'm not asking you to testify about every single one of the 31 sites that you studied but you did mention that that's part of your expertise is understanding traffic patterns would you say comparing this site to those 31 would you expect this site to be below average yes in the business that it transacts yes so there was um no sort of school safety that was considered in your in your report right he's he's been asked that a couple times even tonight he was asked that do you think that the increased usage of app based delivery orders can be expected to drive up the the traffic counts beyond what it predict he was just asked that by the last person up at the microphone to he okay back there that's fine just you testified at the last hearing about the ordinance that's excluding trucks from Dayton and you gave testimony about how that ordinance would be interpreted how's WR I mean it specifically says that so many words local deliv examp it sounded to me like it was a a legal interpretation and I guess I just wanted to be sure that the scope of your expertise here is for traffic not as a legal expert is that correct yes that's it and did I mean did you consult with your attorney on the proper legal interpretation of of that ordinance I'm not his attorney and if I was his attorney I'd instruct him not to answer that but I'm not his attorney so he was giving his opinion as a traffic engineer he was not rendering a legal opinion I could assure you of that so you don't have any understanding of the underlying drivers of of that ordinance or the concerns being managed were you made aware of the 2011 traffic study that was conducted I believe for Handover Avenue of the I just want to ask about the Chad and morrist town stores are are those stores where you took data in chadam Madison and Morris Town are those any of the sites where you collected your data no none of those ring a bell no I think at the last meeting you talked about um if there's a Quee into speed well a car that wants to park could just pull in is there room for for that to happen if people are waiting in line on just speed well for the drive-thru and somebody says well I want to go in that'll Park is is there actually room to accommodate that or if there's a queue is entry completely locked it would depend how they were stacked up could be blocked and is it typical that McDonald's doesn't share its business information with with its experts that might be relevant to the expert don't answer that that's not a question for him I think he's worked on multiple McDonald's applications he's not going to testify about McDonald's internal policies about information he doesn't work for McDonald's I think thank you Lauren K C last name 12 lindbur Lane Mars Plains in the traffic study testimony last week you mentioned uh you only sh about just a handful of traffic accidents in the in the last year on Steed Avenue but at Steed corrid did your study consider how much traffic would be diverted to Mountain W Drive lver Road HW Avenue South Avenue or bran Avenue to accommodate the additional volume okay did your research also revealed that there were over 300 traffic accidents in Mars Plains last year no I I asked for this specific location okay so how will this anticipated volume of over 700 customers a day turning in and out of the proposed property help the Mars PLS Police Department to achieve their goal of reducing traffic accidents to under 200 per year that will help by eliminating a driveway on speed well Avenue less access points by adding to do not block the box of Dayton Road which well providing a much better pedestrian Crossing so all safety improvements are being made okay so primarily you'd be concerned about the ability for customers to turn in and out of McDonald's is that what you're saying in terms of just that immediate surrounding area it would add an element of safety is that is that your statement yes okay not related to any traffic being diverted streets correct I don't see why traffic will be diverted other streets okay so in addition to the new crosswalk and solutions that you're proposing to mitigate danger for the high volume of pedestrian traffic not only Crossing across the speed Avenue but also just using the sidewalks in that area at peak times in the school schedule um are you aware that in other towns where drive-throughs were placed in heavy indrian areas some towns require local police to stand on duty to direct traffic I've never encounter that situation in New Jersey okay um has this type of solution been discussed with the Mars PLS Police Department to your knowledge they they reviewed and gave us comments that we've Incorporated in the ples so there are no just to clarify there are no discussions with Lawrence C's police about additional oversight during school hour of the sidewalks in the area to supplement the cross no at the last meeting you shared your traffic study looked into the current weit time to turn onto spe Avenue from d Road did your study assess the weight time on East Han during the peak hours to turn on Sewell Avenue and the backups there okay or the wait time to enter downtown mors PLS from Littleton okay how will the Pres a drive-thru restaurant with these volumes entering this portion of speed while Avenue impact the current weight times in those areas coming from each side of a road or coming from Littleton Avenue very minimally a little far away do you have data on that to you just mentioned you didn't study those weight times do you have data to back up yeah typically you get concerned about an impact on I mentioned this last year imp intersection that experiences 100 or more additional trips those intersections there's other places for people to turn off they're going to split 50/50 up and down speed well Avenue so the traffic from this McDonald's is so deluded by the time it gets there it's not even close to barely number here thank you thank you Pam dice i s e m o r a n s Hill Avenue um I just just like two sentences about me because I feel like this is not human a lot of things I'm a teacher at burough school and I live on Hill Avenue so I can see the site from my front yard when I step outside so this is one reason why it's very important to me and I'm trying to jealous traic did not get emotional I know right anyway yeah no I walk I walk my daughter used my car to go to high school so anyway but um so and I'm going to clarify few things because this is all new to me so as teacher and especially getting through the pandemic we experienced a lot of like policy versus actual practice but just to confirm that with the policy like the gentleman here was saying that you're required to look at sight traffic and not area land usage like that the it's predisposed to say that allowed use the town is already saying that they don't care about the area traffic it's just that block like you look at I don't think that they're saying they don't care about it but the presumption is that the town permitted thissed because the traffic can handle we're not asking to put something here that generates more traffic in the town says it's okay to put okay but that's so that's okay so that's on that and then um so just in terms of cut through Street H view people cut through back and forth one way you know we're the ones who would absorb some of that flly by traffic and extra parking and anything like that all right so and just to confirm you had said the growth rate you used was 2% yes and that's an IND because it's an industry standard so it does just I know this has been said before this doesn't allow for the particularly like higher growth in this area it's just what you use because of policy it's New Jersey do New Jersey policy New Jersey okay um and and then again just to confirm there's no just is worded differently and I don't understand what this stff the local development plan zoning changes the addition of 160 plus low income housing none of that gets incorporated into your study it does it's part of that grow rate part that suppos toow um did you account for and and how did you account for public transit usage in your projection I everybody's driving I didn't take any credits from people taking bu that might do that in an urban area but not not here but I feel like with the parking comments weren't they saying that they assum they thought that a lot of the employees might take public transit to get to work and that's why you didn't need as much parking that's not what I said that that's that's the reality of McDonald feel like I've been here for a lot of hours thought I heard that okay um did you account for the potential impact of tele meeting or remote work trends like people working from home and then leaving in the middle of the day to get out for lunch like a higher number you know a lunch the lunch time that's why you don't do anything at lunch time doesn't doesn't have a trend of keeping any McDonald's have PE at lunchtime but speed is not busy time I haven't observed that but I'm not a traffic from my house and the school I have not I have observed pretty busy um and I know the 3 p.m. next been mentioned but the kids yeah anyway I ask a question okay um it had do navigation systems with restaurant suggestions affect your trip things like GPS like ways and Maps when they're looking for a nearby restaurant does that factor into the studies at all no I can't my hand but I think I think that's all I have thanks thank you Craig BR 7 Hillview Avenue I know you people have asked a lot of questions regarding the traffic signal just a quick question for you uh there's no if someone goes through the traffic light uh there's nothing traffic uh like they're not technically breaking the law ticket being issued for that if someone does that like is there there is there a ramification for that failure to yield to a pedestrian at crosswalk is against the law okay my my question is um so as I said I'm unhealthy right across the street uh this morning walking back to my house from dkin Donuts there was a guy coming across the street with the flags in hand like halfway through the street I was getting ready to walk into the street and there was a box truck coming guy looking down at his phone didn't see me didn't see him just blew right through the intersection if someone standing right in the middle of the intersection is not going to prevent someone from going through the intersection how necessarily is a traffic to stop someone from well that's exactly the idea that the guy looking down at his phone has has a good SE a little orange flag but when something starts flashing it catches their attention that's the idea of it and at last meeting and this meeting You' made multiple references to like a typical business day or typical week week day and you have your set time to two hours in the morning two hours in the afternoon I understand that those were industry standards you said correct the times that were used um is there anything you said one day is typical for a study to be used one day actual accounts visit the location multiple times during peak hours and I have had enough experience that I can tell if the counters traffic bombs are not consistent with what I'm seeing but the actual data collection is just oneing so for this one there was someone was there on other days as well to do it in addition to the one day where it was in the traffic report I personally know I've been many times to look at traffic conditions okay but in terms of something being presented as evidence there just day correct correct okay if it's one day out of five for two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon have you ever used more than one day in when doing an actual written document traffic report yeah were things that generate a lot of traffic we occasionally have to do more do requires the two counts the 24 hour counts where things generate enough traffic that they be concerned about so not prior to your issuing the traffic report Did You observe other days that you just that were not included in the report yeah yeah I've been to the site several times and working up the plans with Mr every every uh night we've been here I go need check out been plent times but why would that be submitted into the report as further documentation to help to prove the or the legitimacy of traffic report why didn't you do data collection so answer my question thank you hi Stephanie car c a r r 33 Maple Avenue in Mars Plains um may I please clarify that peak hours for you are the standard McDonald's peak hours and not based of comings and goings of the local community no they're based on road General roadway gers General New Jersey DOT has an extensive traffic counting program throughout the state P um have you taken into account large influxes of pedestrians in the area um at what McDonald's may not consider Peak gers or what the do may not consider Peak attempting to cross speed well at that crosswalk um from after school sporting events at Burrow and also from Simon Park which is straight down from Hillview yeah absolutely that those beacons will work 24 hours a day not just during Beacon hours okay um so to sort of um add on to that you testified just earlier this evening that traffic speeds were not pertinent to the traffic study right um and then you're saying the crosswalk would be safer with the blinking lights um I'm not a traffic expert um but would you agree that speed is generally pertinent to the safety of a crosswalk like the rate of speed that people travel yeah true so um I'm just curious why speed was not accounted for in your traffic study we're not the cross's there we're making it better we not adding a cross I was doing a study to say should I add a new crossw some place right well it's being moved and it's also you know be moved to serve a new facility so um and I'm curious since the last meeting I think this was asked of you at the last meeting but have you personally attempted to cross on foot that Crosset spe no somebody asked me that the last one I'm was thinking of the times I've been out there I don't think I've actually yeah the cross you might C Jill C CDC out of your I believe you said 31 traffic studies for locations in the area have any of them ever concluded that added whatever the proposed building was would be a negative impact of these these McDonald's no all of these McDonald's were done because it had a single drivethru Lane that we were convered to a double drivethru lane of the thousands of traffic studies I've done have I ever made recommendations to offset negative impacts yeah sure the final report is always going to say that everything works because we did this this and this I'm not going to I'm going to tell my Cent to do fix problem an ideal location because of the traffic in any of those places yeah sure that's happened okay and we make recommendations for what they would need to do okay um you keep on recording the beacons and making it safer it's my understanding that the beacons were coming regardless um been to Town Council meetings I know that this was something in place it's the movement of the crosswalk that's coming because the result of proposed McDon yes but the beacons have they will come regardless maybe yeah I don't he's not well he continually says that we're improving with the beacons and that clearly is a a McDonald's Improvement um for i' bet to differ if McDonald's doesn't come they still coming and McDonald isn't pay for it exactly so for McDonald's they get get M paid for it and you st that the traffic study is not only the traffic study on stable Avenue but it's also the flow on site of the traffic yeah I'm looking at how this corner is going to operate with the McDonald's there right but the the flow of the traffic within the site is also part of the traffic study yeah oh yes understand um I'm just I know I'm probably going to get cut off but is there a distance is in the design where the delivery truck would come and the drive-thru is that curving or is that just a grassy area like how does it differentiate the drive-thru Lanes towards the back of the building and the free flowing traffic that people want to go and park and walk in what you asking I'm sorry the drive through Lanes is there some kind of barrier that separates them from the free flowing traffic like the yellow line oh just uh they're striping and they're uh made of concrete so the pavement texture will look different there's no physical barrier so if you're in the drivethru and you decide you don't want to go through the drivethru you could easily just exit it's just La top and what is the distance between the drive-thru Lane and the back parking lot space like beginning of theing spes and that last dve the Dy basically where the is what is that distance 20 20 ft that's 20 ft and and and the delivery trucks I understand from my research and maybe I'm wrong are about the width of 8 and2 ft and then if a car wants to get by an average car 6 and half to 7t no average car is 5 and half to 6 ft I'm sorry average SUV which seems to be only CR 7t passeng cross 7t is a h we've been over this one a bunch of times yeah I didn't have the numbers I know I asked a similar question I didn't have the numbers of the distance and I'm just really ER or if a bus comes through and realizes they can't I just the space I just don't see but I'll let that um the average they were saying you were saying 710 um cars or customers her dad and then Mr P came in at the last meeting after just Consulting with a representative Inn at 7 to 800 uh was who is that representative transactions I think transaction I'm sorry who was that representative they in why I I got to he's giving num please the only opportunity have you can argue later on you're not allowed to question ad that has to go to the witness testimony anything please I know please but but you're not listening it has to be questions to the witness okay I has to be questions to this witness he's not a witness has to be questions plus examination to this person okay I apologize I could interject again it has to be questions apologize so the 710 you said was a number that you came up with with your study and then McDonald's just agreed with that then the it projections that I and have they ever been wrong have the it numbers been wrong before yeah they're always too high thank you take a break we going to be back in 10 minutes s all mics are off all microphones are off e e for [Music] for e per for [Music] for e now e that's app to yes for [Music] e e not and Lewis 126 that was made uh that we have no right to consider traffic since this is a use that's permitted is that correct uh I don't know agree with the attorne that are here but uh yes uh and but it comes to this way and it bees a minute and a half of explanation when a governing body changes zoning or does the zoning they decided some should be residential some should be commercial be manufacturing part of that consideration takes into account what are going to be the impacts of those uses obviously not everyone here is talking impact of a use can be trafficed so the courts have said the decision on a permitted use on what use should be permitted necessarily includes the governing body's decision that the traffic will be okay they decided it planning board has a limited jurisdiction planning board that denied an application because of the estimate of the increased traffic we generate will be denied will be reversed every single time by Court you you do not have this board does not have jurisdiction or power to deny a an application based upon increased traffic permitt abuse that's that's the the simple One cases I made so just to Circle back about the um school buses or any kind of buses I know you said that they cannot be accommodated in there but is there going to be any type of signage or any way to actually prevent them from turning in and the reason I think we're all asking this is because we know what goes on at Central Park where the where the tournaments and the fields are and does and doges and buses day are coming there are coming down Handover Avenue from there so what will be done to make sure that that doesn't that they don't try to turn in and then jam up everything turn if the bus pulls in there there's no bus parking on the side they can physically Traverse obviously because the track trailer through with they don't have bus parking so are you we going to are they going be encouraged to or discouraged turning in will there be signage will there be you know no buses permitted anything like that I don't know why a bus driver would assume that this is the only that I've ever seen has bus part well we're cl to a couple different highways that they're probably going to be getting on so McDonald's in 14,000 in the country they can you can let him finish please I've never seen the McDonald's with parking I don't know why a bus driver would assume that this one had it so there's nothing to discourage if they turn in they turn in they can jam lot even no they would they could circulate through it wouldn't CH a lot but no concessions nothing that will be done I don't know what we could signage you want to know us sign yeah I'm sure we can do that I don't think do would allow that but sure and then with regard to um orders that aren't fulfilled in like the whatever amount of time they're supposed to be and they're asked to pull over to the side where does that happen and how does that affect the flow of the rest of the driver it's these spaces usually have the last window are there certain ones that are just assigned just for that purpose or are they shared with like the delivery and the other things or they're they're numbered I don't know if they're you know they could be shared but you know the person in the window can look over and see space number one or two or three is available so can you just explain that works pull your order's not ready in time you're told to pull it to one of those spots over there and first of all where where would they be when they have to pull into one of those spots at what point are they told that the pickup window which window well depending on if they're using the third window or not one of these two windows where they pick up the food depending on the time so are they going to be able to get into one of those spots sure they not already pass them front end your cars here you can get into this spot from this window you can get into the first four spots and then someone how does it work does someone come out of the store and bring their food and they have to cross through yeah somebodys out so how often does that usually happen no no data on that at all is that something we could just we're just trying to how many spots would be taken up oh it's very ing the goal is I'm sure for McDonald's for it to never happen but you know it's happen so they would have how many it's more so if somebody has a very large order and there's small ERS behind them hold the other people but sometimes it's ready happens so if they just hypothetically happen to be filled up and then door Dash if whoever comes and those are their spots too right those same spots so where to they them are they where are they are they going to be just like pulled up on the side are they allowed to per in any of the other spots deliberate those spots on the side that are reserved for the delivery vehic and I mean theoretically they can parket any work space I don't think anybody's going notic you well they would have to actually come around right yeah those this has become a typical layout for McDonald's so presumably the door Dash reads people to kind of know where the parking and those numbers for door dash for any kind of delivery in are all part of the transaction number okay rest of my questions were asked so thank you thank you hey Carl ring Dayton Road 22 Dayton roading great um so you talked a little bit about some of the improvements and things you guys have Tak into just out of curiosity in addition to kind of the light up roadway crosswalk is there anything else in your expert opinion that could be done to make that crosswalk safer's no other types of crosswalk controls that would make it safer than the light there are other techniques that can that are out there but this is the the latest was let him finish let finish okay finished two second pause then go got this is the most favorite tool in the tool box right now for this type of crossb is the rid but there nothing else that could be placed there that would make it safer not even an additional stop light no you can't you can't put a you mean like a signal like to stop the cars right now wouldn't be more you have to have a certain amount of traffic volume turning volume to learn a traffic a certain amount of pedestrian volume and this is not even close plus that would be not very good for Speaking 11 another my question was is there something that could be done beyond what you're proposing to make that Crossing safer he answered that a couple times your answer to my question about whether or not a signal would be a safer solution was that that's not going to happen I'm asking question would that be safer no having a dedicated signal L would not make it safer across the street I I got to have to hop in it's the question the answer it has to move on at some point can't you keep on arguing point I I understand the point you do but it you have to move yeah I just yeah I was curious you know honesty of answer relev but okay I can explain if you like when you add a explain that's what I'm here for you're the when you add a traffic signal you create rear end accidents that aren't happening here now so for that 8 to 10 pedestrian Crossings at this location would it be easier for them if you stopped all traffic and created rear ends I guess but that's not safer in my opinion I've lived at my house for four years how many times do you think I've almost been hit in that crosswalk I have no idea take a guess I'm not going guess again has to question on what testimony was not Hy all right well thanks a lot guys I'll let you Joan 31 C place um as long as we on the crosswalk I'll stick with that what would be would it be safer to move the crosswalk on the other side of the Box on the other side people have because I know I live on Canfield which is and I've lived on that street for 50 years and I know the traffic very well know that I'm a traffic expert on that he asked the question let me answer the question you're not supposed to be testifying no but I'm asking him about moving across yes because if you go out to date but but but but you didn't he has to you asked the question wouldn't be better to move it please allow him to answer that the the crosswalk is crossing at Hill Avenue there for a reason presumably the school I don't know we're putting it in the best location that Happ moving it to a completely different location would be a whole different study that I guess the Baro could do but this is where they asked us to put it they asked us to ask NJ if it was okay everybody's agreed this but in your opinion people that are coming out dating and making a left are trying to make that Gap and trying to keep their eye on the crosswalk that's like x amount of left and then people are saying it's lot to keep looking at if the CR was on the other side it seems to me would be easier to left without hitting somebody cross but okay my second question we spent a lot of time on the queueing coming in from speed Avenue what about when you're done going through the drive you're going back out to exit on to speed and you said it takes time 47 seconds Ely to get out of and you're doing 60 to 70 cars per hour how much is that going to back up into the queuing line and back up the whole Drive yeah ttif I did that the last time we we checked that 9 percentile Q length and and the the weekday morning and evening is one about one cards math calculation so it's 1.1 and 0.9 all purposes one and on Sat which again I testify that I think we have big overestimate numbers but even with that it's two cars two cars two cars 95% of the time there will be two or less cars to when you're doing 70 hour and there's 47 seconds which I think is a low estimate to make the turn you're only going to have two cars back to go out the that's your exper mathematically calculated okay also um is there any consideration for traffic from McDonald's that's over in Cedar that's not a dve the people that would have been going there that are now to come to the drive consider that I I think the people who are doing that who already passed the site would be happy McDonald's here I testified the last time these are convenience there's McDonald's all over the place there's plenty of them around you don't necessarily go out of your way especially during peak hours to go to MDS so the 710 cars a day the 70 in in the hour most of them are already driving on speed well Avenue anyway they're just going to turn in and out in coms but there are going to be people that will go out of their way to use the drivethru because I um okay you said that um the traffic wouldn't impact to side streets in their opinion they would just be on Avenue and disperse that they would affect the side streets for for two reasons again they would disperse and because they they would have already been on speed impacting all those side anyway my question is what about people that want to go out dat or go out and make a left hand turn what's going to stop them from going out making a right hand turn on to speed then right hand turn on to Dayton going down going out to the traffic to make their left going through resal resal area nothing do it I've done it about a dozen times when I've been here youd have to know you'd have to know that you could do it you'd have to know the area hello my name is and I live at hello my name is carollyn Bennett and I live at 19 Dayton Road um I have a question it's not necessarily about what you testified on but your name is traffic expert in the application am I allowed to ask that question okay um on the last page when it say Varan designed wers thought and justification for same under number two there's a whole thing about the variance that the applicant is asking for in terms of the size of the parking spaces and it says that 9 by 18 parking stalls are an acceptable size and width for this use and as our traffic expert will and then there's nothing so I was just wondering what's the rest of that sentence and what are you going to do we got testimonies already been provided by the side engineer by 18 spaces that's the standard Park size throughout the country sorry can you say that again I can't hear you that's the standard parking stall size throughout the country 9 by8 is a typical size parking stall okay so the rest of that s should say that as our traffic expert will testify there's nothing else that there I was just doing my due diligence to make sure I wasn't missing anything okay thank you um in terms of the crosswalk to be the to the topic that we're on um in any of your traffic studies I'm sure you looked at lots of crosswalks have you ever seen data around AI enhancements for crosswalks no yeah I'm sure that's coming it it is and I know there are some companies that are working on it but I know this isn't my place to share that so I guess is that something that's being considered for the do application because it sounds like you guys are trying to bring something great to this town that we're already not getting with the grant that's already been given to our town you got got to ask the question you're t t i I asked him if that's something that he's considered okay let him ask let him answer okay no I haven't considered an AI crosswalk I don't know what that is but and that's not part of the do application that you testified about last time no can you elaborate a little bit more on the do application process because I'm not wrapping my head around if they don't move forward with the things that you guys have outlined here what do you mean if they don't move forward it sounds like nothing has been officially signed by the do and it's still an application so I guess like what happens let's say this gets approved or whatever like what happens when you go back to the dot to finalize the plans is there is there a way that they say oh actually like we're not going to let you guys we're not going to let McDonald's move the crosswalk and extend it and add the beacon is it is it possible I suppose but that's why we have the pre-application meeting to make sure that that wouldn't happen but anything can happen yeah they it's their Road okay I think that's good to know um in the 31 other McDonald's I think that's what you said last time that You' worked on 31 other McDonald's applications well probably more than that but 31 where I compiled the data yeah have any of were there exceptions to variances asked in those applications every single one of I can't think of an application that didn't have at Le one there was there any of those other 31s that you any other of those 301 locations that you talked about um were they met with a public hearing such like this or is this the first time that this is this crowd and and doing this process with you most of them don't have a crowd but some do so the size I I I'm going to have to hop in it has to be what he did testify to descriptions on things that happen it has to be the testimony that here okay I'm specifically talking about the 31 other application that he about talking about the number of people that showed up at that's not Rel I'm I'm trying but that's not that's anything here on this site fair game absolutely fair game okay um so back to the variances to the ordinance that are on the application when you say that the um parking spaces that are being asked for our standard can you elaborate how that works with a car that's parked with both of their doors open I don't know the length of cars in that I think you just said it was typically like 5 to 7 feet wide a 9t y by 18t deep parking space is the standard design to accommodate parking Vehicles endorsements every Park 95% of the parking lots that you park in every day that's the size of the spaces why is it that the bur of Morris CLE requires a different size one then it probably depends on when they made that suggestion because years ago back in the 70s there was a trend of very large cars so people want to bigger car spaces but try to worst okay now they just get taller the they not get wider yeah now when I'm pregnant it's very difficult for me to get my kids down out of the car but neither here nor there um regarding the semi truck that you testified about and it's up on the screen as a traffic expert and you can tell me no do you know how much these semit trucks typically weigh when they're empty or when they're full of their delivery um as a traffic expert do you know how long it takes one of these car one of these semi trucks to come to a complet stop going 30 m hour sorry can you repeat that I don't who would I be able to ask that question to because I think that's really important for this application and I would I would suspect it would be the traffic expert well we don't we don't necessarily agree I don't think it's relevant okay if back to the crosswalk then if someone is trying to cross the crosswalk and there's a semi truck coming isn't it important to know how long that truck needs to stop before they run that person over yeah and that's that's called stopping site distance I know those standards and we're meeting those standards for signage placement and visibility is the stopping sight distance which you just quoted different from a car than to a semi Tru yes I'm a little lost on how we don't know how long it takes a semi truck to stop at a crosswalk it's not it's not a Time but you ask the time I don't know the time but there's distances that are met in order to satisfy be a traffic stop it's called stopping SE distance every road when you're driving on it has to have it so there's a vehicle in front of you that stops you don't run in the back so curves vertical curves horizontal curves and visibility to anything that might make you stop AC cross so does a heavier yeah and I I'll look into that does a heavier vehicle take longer to stop presumably yes okay um and also regarding the sem truck that's up on the screen This falls under your perview are there blind spots to ATT tractor trailer that are considered at all when we're drawing up a diagram like this yeah we make sure that there's visibility and safe access in and out of the site yeah that's all Tak into information about that so if there's somebody that's on the sidewalk walking up for lack of better words from Dayton so like from my house would we fall in the blind spot of a delivery truck that's pulling out onto our residential street no can you elaborate more on how that's not an issue we we can't the roads can't be designed way you have to have visibility there's nothing blocking the visibility in this area is there going to be a stop sign where that tractor TR waiting before it turns left onto Dayton there is one now so no the tractor trailer that's leading the parking lot yeah there's a stop sign here for him to stop here to look both ways it's coming out on Dat and there's an existing stop sign well there should be it might have got knocked over but there should be an existing stop sign in So at the first stop sign that you say is already there if the tractor trailer stopped there can you elaborate on the blind spots of that tractor trailer it it doesn't he has sufficient visibility looking left and right to see oncoming traffic I'm not speaking about oncoming traffic I'm talking about the fact that it's on a sidewalk where my kids walk and other pedestrians and I want to know if the sidewalk right next to the tractor trailer is a concern that there could be a kid there and he doesn't see it I'm not talking about the the blind spot on the road I'm talking about the blind spot of the actual vehicle on the sidewalk that's running into it he's not going to drive on truck drive on the sidewalk I'm not try to understand what your question is I'm going to try to reir my question again if the tractor trailer stopped coming out of McDonald's trying to make a left it has to stop at a stop sign is the stop sign placed before this pedestrian sidewalk or after before and as a traffic expert all vehicles stop before the stop time we've never seen Vehicles creep up Hollywood stop that's not thing you stop at the stop sign if there's a pedestrian Crossing which you can see if there's not then of course you creep out and improve your visibility so you just said that there's a pedestrian coming yes you're going to you're not going to you're going to stop behind the crosswalk if somebody's walking if there's nobody walking you can pull up to improve your visibility to turn left to right like every driveway in America okay um not every driveway in America I don't believe has semi trucks driving out as well but it sounds like as a traffic expert that's what you think is a normal thing um most many un signalized intersections have trucks think of warehouses and things that have lots of trucks coming out this is one truck it's two per two per week two times per week this truck's going to be that's it as a traffic expert how many times do you think a kid has to get hit by truck in order for something bad to happen but anytime a kid gets hit by a truck something bad happens that's why we design it to make sure that that's not going to happen Okay um at 9:10 you spoke about how McDonald's is going to be paying for the crosswalk optimizations that are being made but I'm really interested in learning more about the grant that the town has already been issued what do we get that grant money back if the do application that's not what he testified to he do it has to be what he testified to not he didn't tesy to the grants okay what what's being built I said what what's being built absolutely not okay um to Enlighten us all specifically me a little bit more about being a traffic expert can you shed light on credibility specifically who fact checks someone that is a traffic expert I I have gentleman sitting right over there back check this one he was hired by your board my work so there's always just one layer of fact checking that's done in that standard I I don't know traffic expt for most of the time yes but in this case we'll have that second layer with the New Jersey do as well and when that happens when we go back to the doot there is room that they can change anything that's been presented to the public to the I actually I can address this too and I do understand um kind of the concern but in probably every single s plan application involves Road involves environmental issues or involves neighboring property there are always several layers of approvals you have to get and you can't get the do and the county uh planning board uh and d and us all inan so it's uniformly in every application somebody one board has to say yes and then it gets that what's going to be done gets approved or confirmed or Changed by another entity if it gets changed then General they have to go back that's that's just the nature of having so many regulatory bodies it one one body acts and the next acts on it if there's a significant change it has to go back but that's that that I hope that answers that concern that's happens in every application okay yeah it does I just want to yeah it does um so listening to the traffic study I I'm following what data was looked at on May 1st do you take into consideration or can you share with us anything about the construction vehicles and how that will impact traffic or that's not part of what the traffic expert looks at uh that that's looked at if this is approved with the building department and pulling building permits now it's not looked at at this time um when you say about the 7c Gap is that what we we're align that there's a 7c gap before people will turn on speed National in collected research says that people wait for 7 second G to turn left would that also include a dump tru just picking a vehicle out of the air It's a larger gap for a larger time for vehicles that are slower to accelerate which if you're designing something for just those Vehicles you might look at that this is designed for passenger vehicles and then our traffic study is done at like so I understand the traffic study it's done to that this isn't going to have a huge impact on the current traffic that's running through the town is there anything ever done like after the fact or it's like oh I hope that what we shared was right depends on the circumstance larger like I said for projects that generate a lot of traffic that actually are concerned with with regard to traffic there might be some layer of postt trffic St this is this is a small use generating not that much traffic most of the traffic it's generating is already out on M today coming in out so are there other mechanisms yes but for something like this so there's no planned post study traffic study if I can pair it that back to you okay um in terms of the traffic that you've been testifying that's going to be coming to this McDonald's it's fair to say that you agree that it's people that already live here most of them yes most people already traveling by that's the point the reason McDonald wants to be here is to capture some of that traffic on speed while 11 a good location for um do you agree with the previous testimony from I think it might have been your not your Council the council that people are going to be seeking this location I don't know what you guys call each other people are going to be speaking I just thought about it when you said that I've lost my train of colge that's okay we have all night um do you agree with what Mr Poo shared in his opening meeting that this location is going to be bringing in people who can't afford the fancy restaurants all around the area because that I see that as a contradicting fact I didn't say that it would draw people in from other areas that is something you you seem to be concerned about I did not say that I didn't say it would draw people from other areas I said it's an affordable food option in your area you made that statement that would drive drawing people from other areas I never said that okay so next meeting or when the public can testify am I allowed to bring proof that he said that sure okay um I feel like we've talked a lot about the traffic pattern on well and how this isn't going to make a huge impact what I'm struggling with is people leaving McDonald's onto Dayton and they're only going to be making the left turn what how many cars back can that be before they can't leave the restaurant anymore how long would Q be on Dat yeah eight car so then what happens in that situation when people leaving McDonald's trying to get on Dat in Camp because there is a long queue eight cars have you driven on Dayton in the morning trying to bring people to daycare eight cars there is pretty reasonable so I think it is a valid question I don't I don't see that happening but U theyd have to wait until bu up and they turn out so then if they have to wait which is what you just said wouldn't that cause a backflow that could eventually pour out into blocking anything else up on the screen parking spots Dum anything no how so I don't have any concern about that happening at all can you say that a little Lou I don't have any concern about that happening at all is that your opinion yes okay um and then something that you said today and last week was that you don't anticipate people wanting to wait for McNuggets if they're trying to turn left off of speed well into the drivethru is that correct I'm sure I made the McNuggets joke but I don't think was anything about making it left the question that your traffic engineer asked is if there was a scenario where the drive was backed up what would likely happen and he agreed with me that likely you would buy pass and go to a different McDonald or a different restaurant do something else rather than wait that long for chicken um where does that conclusion come from that people wouldn't wait for that common sense just natural behav human behavior so you don't think that a mom with kids in her car and they can't afford all of the other restaurants that are around the area and they need to eat dinner before practice or whatnot wouldn't want to turn left and get that meal sure they would but not that's not the question his question was if the drive-thru was backed up to the street your saying turn any M left yeah that's the problem no I'm saying if it's backed up and I need to get into that restaurant because I don't have another Choice my kids are hungry I don't have money to go to all of the other fancy places and I need to make that left into that drivethru and I can't because it's backed up what is the what is the traffic flow then resulting from me waiting there trying to left he sitting there and people be going around you while you're waiting with your TR where on this diagram are people going to be going around me because I think that's something that we keep ask we keep asking and you keep joking about it and I say the word joke because you just said that word if a car is sitting at the W line waiting M left there is enough room to go around them for through traffic it happens all up and down speed little Avenue I sat out there for half an hour today and watch it happen if the dkin donuts times and what happens when that the traffic light is red and the cars are all the way back up and nobody can go through like this is going to create a bottleneck problem would it not no it will not I don't know what else I can tell you it's I think you're seeing a Dre today scenario that's not reality so I don't see that as not being reality because this is my reality I live on the street do you ma'am ma'am it's got to be question I just do you he just said that this is a doomsday not reality and I'm asking him I am letting him know that if it is a reality that I can clearly lay out because I live there and my question is do you live there no I don't okay um really quickly last question so when you say that you've done this for many other McDonald's other I think you mentioned chickfila poey Wendy's 31 other McDonald's that's correct this is not a new process for you okay I guess like are we annoying you because it seems like we are no okay I just want to make sure I would have want to do that thank [Applause] you hi Greg Divine 91 Sun Valley Way um testifying thousands of uh traffic studies right um and you Ted a few times tonight answer question regarding the safety including like that's why we designed truck exit that rate for safety concerns so it's part of your traffic study risk and safety concerns do they take that into consideration yes okay great so for this particular site and the design what in particular is the projected rate of collisions or injuries based on vehicle body zero zero and is that is that traffic study any dat St you to look at no we we designed it for safety to avoid that from happening why would I if I projected any injury or accident then I would change something how the client to change something so there's no data as you said I'm sorry what what data do you rely on data and U projections and modeling for your traffic study right yes so there's no data on projected rates of collisions rear endend collisions in the Drive-Thru or pedestrian injuries or crosswalk or walkway in the in the drivethru there's zero data available on that yeah there's existing data and I got it from your Police Department there's been three crashes in this part of speed well Avenue in the past three years one of them is down to rosale Avenue and the other two were here I'm sorry no no please let them answer please no please let them answer I'll listen to you tell me to wait for to yes there's no substantial crash pattern here corre I'm not asking about speed I'm asking about is there any data on the volume of 700 plus cars open every day thousands of cars what data is available if any on the rate of collisions within the perimeter of the site or the entrance or exits of the site rear ending within the drive-thru or pedestrians being hit there's zero data available on that zero never been provided he's answered the question a couple times now I'm sorry no he answered the question about speed well you testified and you asked questions last meeting of this witness sir yeah that that's not relative no that's true and this is an entirely new subject the attorney said that people who didn't who who were going to ask questions for those who didn't ask questions you were up here last meeting asking this witness questions that's all I'm saying I'm not looking to pick a fight with you I'm just pointing it out and there's a precedent that there's about 7 folks so you've wed that to them so here I am asking questions okay my question is about within the perimeter of the building you you provided zero data on projected injuries or collisions within the perimeter for your traffic site correct and has anybody on the board or the town asked you for any projected occurrence based on vehicle volume for anticipated accidents or injuries or collisions within the pr no nobody's asked for that no okay and as an expert today can you say that no collisions occur ever at McDonald no you mean you can't answer that no I'm sure collisions occurred in news of course I'm sorry I couldn't hear you I'm sure collisions have occurred in McDonald's I can't say no collisions ever occurred in McDonald's but are you personally aware of any actual data or instances where collisions occur within McDonald's I'm not no no so with that being an expert today can you project you are an expert on traffic and especially McDonald's with thousands of plans as an expert today you can opine or provide your professional opinion on let's talk so I could say one in 5,000 cars which is six seven days I please please you have to stop the board and me are the Arbiter of kind of what can go on have to ask him what he has testified to his report can't create things that you want him to testify to you can ask a questions and if you have an expert at the end that will testify to what you're talking about more than help to put them on but he didn't testify that he testified to safety earlier so I'm asking safety questions he didn't testify to any of his crash P that's the point I I I understand so as an expert I can't ask him if he has any your opinion on let's talk 20,000 vehicles on the rate of incidence of you have to you have to do home you have to okay hi ran Martin dri um regarding the your experience professional experience um I've heard 31 McDonald's is the number of locations that we're going to get information for so we can look at those traffic studies the location you're not you're not getting the traffic studies we're giving well let me finish we're going to give you the addresses and then to that list to the traffic engineer and you're more than welcome to obtain that information and do whatever you want with it um those 31 McDonald's um you testified earlier that McDonald's is moving towards um higher volume drive-throughs with two Ls and that's been a trend with reconstruction of McDonald's to rebuild them with two drive throughs the 31 studies that you've done previously were those for new restaurants where a drive-thru restaurant previously did not exist or are they all renovations to existing drive-thru restaurants he's already answered that but go ahead you can answer it again the 31 that I'm referencing with obviously existing McDonald's that's how I was able to count them so yeah they're all remod existing McDonald so so none of those 31 include brand new restaurants where there was not previously a dve how could it possibly how could I count a McDonald's that didn't exist I mean you've never done a traffic study like this one where McDonald's didn't previously exist oh yeah I have but the 31 I'm referencing the ones that I counted the existing mcdonals the 31 that you're going to be providing to the trffic engineer don't include any of the ones where there was not previously a McDonald's D what am I missing I don't understand what you're talking about I counted physical actual open McDonald's and that's the 31 that I'm talking about right I'm asking McDonald didn't exist then how can I have counter okay in your experience how many I think what I'm looking for is to look that where there was not previously a McDonald's Drive Right Where You conducted a traffic study and then so that we have an opportunity to look at the impact of that McDonald's after the traffic study oh so you want addresses of ground up McDonald's yes that's he's relying upon the information in his report so we're not going to produce any more information we're going to give you the 31 addresses but we're not going to keep providing names of McDonald's all over the country that are round up McDonald's I mean he he he's testified about why he believes this is an acceptable uh location from a traffic and a parking perspective the board engineer has vetted it he has agreed with the methodology and the findings and so we're going to rely on that so we're not going to be continue to be producing all this additional if I I'll aim it at you what you're looking for is information you might want to get applicants are not obligated to give it to you a conversation with the traffic engineer except from anybody in this room might be able to generate that for you but he generally can't compel an applican to give information that they're not relying on that's that's kind of a quick answer I think the application relies on your experience right as a traffic engineer and your exper includes all of those the quick is you're allowed to ask him what his report and this and what's being built and his opinions about this not just general I understand you might want to but if you want to go get other things that they've did an applicant is not obligated to give you that they're simply not assessing their experience expertise you can go get that you're allowed to bring that in at another time absolutely but they're not forced to give that to you okay um as part of your professional practice have you gone back to assess the impact or the accuracy of your studies after the fact you testified a little earlier that it was only for major projects we're only required to do if I some jurisdictions for major projects but yes I've gone back and updated studies after the fact how many of those ended up experiencing traffic impacts greater than exess um very few I would say that happens maybe less than 5% of the time I see site generating more traffic than I projected 95% of the time it's generating less because in New Jersey we have less Reliance on cars than the country as a whole which is where the data comes from I've gone back to McDonald specifically since they gone from the single and the double drive-thru and seen great Improvement for that even where there wasn't previously a McDonald's I think we're not understanding each other I I guess we're not there's an existing McDonald's with one driver I do traffic counts at it see how many cars go in and out how long D then they rebuild it put it double and I back there wasn't McDonald's there I couldn't go back wasn't there my name is Gina luino 47 Parker Drive you say one more time sure Lu mu s o l i n o so I guess um we talk a lot about the you know the children being across the street from a school you you all obviously know that um it's it actually is a middle school so it's not a you know Elementary School it's middle so you have eighth graders you know after school you know that too um I guess um I guess I'm just curious about the um you know there there also was a lot of talk about busing you know for sporting events our kids actually the majority of which don't get buses it's not in our budget um so they're just kind of you know uh a lot of them are Walkers um and so as you know they'll be Crossing probably going to McDonald's I guess the question is um given the constraints constraints of the lot has it ever been considered to um you know not have the pedestrians or you know specifically kids walk straight you know into the circle of traffic if there an option to have a traffic flow not you know have have that um entrance you know the only entrance to the building is like through the circle of cars you're talking about once right yes yeah mean the cars have to circulate around the entire building so there's no other way to do it okay I've going to have to cross it from that well like any other ret establishment yeah and then um just my other my last question really is that um I think this was brought up the last time the line of sight as you exit as the the drivers exit um and the left there the crosswalk is blocked um by the building I guess and so they're making this sharp left um and so as we know you know the drivers I would imagine through a drive aren the most as they're you know grabbing a french fry looking down for a second um so I think it was the engineer mentioned he could move the crosswalk further south um I think he mentioned that last I don't remember what meeting it was but um was that revised or um that's my first question secondly it seems like it's not even a possibility because um you know further south is right uh on top of the entrance exit so are you asking about the main side the main crosswalk that everyone's been asking about well the one in theide exactly in y yeah and we we've put that that speed table that you know to make it obvious that it's the D cross you're making the sharp turns and you're not coming at a high speed and I'm not sure if the testimony was that it could be moved over in my view without having looked at all the site analysis I think could if that was the testimony plans haven't been revised to show that minor change but if that was the testimony do so you I he could move it over or I guess it would yeah we'll do it yeah we'll move it over okay I I don't think it's a bad suggestion okay yeah that's all just really you know that the kids are around so that concern good evening uh mik I more Drive um so for the parking configuration of the tractor again um it would have to pull forward to straighten out the trailer and then perform basically a blind back in the maneuver which is one of the more dangerous Maneuvers for a tra trailer made to pull in adjacent to the we've been over this yeah I'm just confing many times many times so go ahead one last yes it would back up to that Redline yeah you may right so is this typical for McDonald's yes design okay yes that um so for the Gap intervals that you did the count for pxd why are they not broken out by Highway Direction like the other truway counts were they are within the software what it says North southbound combined so it doesn't it doesn't show which gaps are available on the North side versus the southern side to show the disparity well you only need you only need the North side and combined because we're on the we're coming in you you if you're going to make a right you have to look at the gaps in the north the so um so for the the Gap to Total gaps to Gap demand relationship uh the way that it says right now is it'll operate safely efficiently and what point would it not be safe or efficient is that when the Gap demand exceeds the total gaps if the Gap demanded the total gaps and yet you have people needing to make a right who wanted to make a left okay um so for the also for the purposes of clarification um the Dayton Road exit has for Saturday has to coming out just use for example uh the site exit to speed has 37 uh the Gap analysis that you were using has the Gap demand of 37 which is just the the driveway would it also be dting as well since they're both trying to grab the same at the same time so you have four and 37 so the total number your Gap demand would be 41 and up 37 no not necessarily mean you would you could do a separate Gap study at dat presumably get about the same numbers you get the other one they're they're indivual okay um so the the new trip distribution uh has a 50/50 coming from north and south from 202 uh given that hand over have is an arterial through the area uh would it be safe to say that most new trips would be coming off East Handover have especially since it's only, ft away from that Highway you mean new trips is not pass by as sure possibly usually it's kind of the prevailing traffic patterns we kind of went with the 5050 split okay um have you performed any sensitivity analysis to the north south distributions ter to determine how the traffic impacts would change if any of those parameters were altered yes report I believe is a sensitivity analysis I think excuse me hold on hold on my report is a sensitivity analysis I think I have way more left turns projected in my report than you're actually going to see and that was at the request of your traffic engineer to really test that worst case scenario so yes works if um are you aware that for example 75% of the new trips from the Saturday peak come from the southbound side the amount of cars that return to go back to would exceed the total vehicle gaps and present what most likely will Zero step this I know because you're assuming 50/50 um what if anything would trigger a traffic study for the intersection of two2 not by you by anybody they could be the do it's more general question there's no magic um for this application can you explain the process for the do once this is complete yeah we file an application in this case it's a major access application with the do they have 30 days to review the materials that we submit to tell us if the application's complete or need to provide more information once it's deed complete our case manager who's the main person at do will send off a set of plans and all of our reports to several different departments within the do uh drainage lighting um B and different departments that we view it they'll all give their comments send it back to the case manager he compiles it all to one letter for us and send it back to us we then have 90 days to address those comments it back to them and it could go back and forth a few rounds or it can be quick defend some how and it's all based off of the traffic study here or will they request subtit no we this doesn't generate enough traffic for them to ask for a traffic study but we'll give it to a minute that's all thank you hi um I'm Jessica or Avenue and I just have a few questions for you so um you stated um a November 12th meeting that traffic counts were conducted on Wednesday and Saturday May 1st to May 4th you see that the traffic counts vary from day to day we're in a hybrid work environment so no two days during the work week have the same traffic understanding this Wednesday May not represent peak time traffic Day times um why were traffic counts conducted for each day to determine the true Peak traffic day and time just curious generally it's Tuesday Wednesday Thursday you want your count student Mondays at Fridays at G and lower traffic volume so that's why we pick the Wednesday and again that's the day we did the physical data collection our staff and myself Ed the site a number of times we're not seeing anything different than we saw that day the numbers of every day so you build in layers into a report to be conservative to account for that growth rate that's too high traffic generation that's too high more left turns than I think we're going to see all those things test the worst case to make sure that you can absorb that crazy day where it's a little busier that's the idea okay thank you um you had said that the traffic studies being conducted discuss the traffic scenarios while McDonald's is operational um however there will be impacts from truck traffic during the Demolition and construction phase of the site were traffic studies and simulations done for the demolition construction of the site and if so were um what are the levels of service During the period do traffic mitigation plans during Demolition and construction ex this and if so was there was this shared with the council and the public that he's been asked that question he was asked that question tonight and he gave an answer so it's been asked to answer but I could also I can assist you that um prior if there was an approval prior construction there's a construction a meeting with Ral officials on uh to mitigate any construction impacts that that's typical that's done that they have to get clearance from um Everybody in the pr to minimize that that that's dealt with that's how that's and do in this case thank you um I just want to address the discussion around the peak Patron times and the weight times that was discussed with the traffic oh you um the Insight report um states that the national average weight time is about 5 minutes and 43 seconds you stated um it's not accurate as it does not look at peak hours and then states that we can anticipate a wait time for approximately 4 minutes however you achieve an average weight time number by looking at Peak and non peak hours which would suggest that the peak hour weit time are longer not shter than the average weight for 5 minutes 43 seconds so could you just explain again I'm sorry if you already did how you arrive with PE traffic minute yeah okay I I think maybe you misunderstood the the inside study I have right here that you referencing when I first saw it I thought this is the greatest thing ever I can use this and then I thought the numbers didn't make sense and I realized it's because they're not looking at the peak hours so looking at all times of day so at midnight when you go to get a burger and prize at McDonald's it's going to take you a lot longer than it would at 5:00 in the afternoon because they don't have as many stack and as much food prepared one thing the four minutes I said was the the latest Insight study shows about four minutes at mcdonal and I said that makes sense if you're say if if cars are moving up in 30 second PS eight cars will be that four minutes that's total time the drive okay so it makes it it fits but be Care on that data because it's a Dage over a day not necessarily we're focused on times for given so I'm just want to make sure we yeah I'm doing my research I'm sorry that's confusing but that's you okay so you're stating also that the car is processed every 20 seconds helping to eliminate Q issues in the Drive-Thru studies show that the average order processing takes 45 to 75 seconds higher values of orders particularly during peak time would result in a longer order processing time would um you explained how you concluded that the shorter processing rates would be achieved during peak hours sure pop processing great per car but it might be a longer time because there's more cars in front of you um and then I sorry back to the in touch report so the in touch report also notes that the traffic volume increases processing speeds and Order accuracy decreases these events further delay the process and extend the queue the detailed report indicates that the total time for the complete end to endend process for McDonald's is 413 seconds which is just under 7 minutes which with um what you had estimate approximately 4 minutes so we just wanted to know how you got that cheap weit time for car in touch Insight right here J 20228 seconds was the average that this study found 2023 205 and 2024 238 I think so I I read it right here okay sorry okay um and then one of my last questions um table floor of the traffic Ina study shows the primary trips to the site with the friendlies as an active site of car trips um however the site has been receiving no car trips for several years so how are the additional car trips shown in the table accurate if car trips are only occurring for that small office building that's based on it projections in other words if I was going to build a friendlies and those Office Buildings those are the numbers that I would use it's informational for comparison purposes I didn't take credit my analysis it's just to give you here's here's the magory traffic that could already be generated down there somebody could move into friendway and reopen it as another restaurant without having to come to this board or anywhere that's the potential and again informational I didn't I assume that this is being built on in the woods no no no tra Cas well I live at Hill Avenue so um that's where my concern is and um you know there's a lot more questions I have about thank you hi um charine 23 cath place so my first question as a traffic expert is can you confirm for me that Speedwell Avenue is one Lan in each Direction in front of the site yes so you've testified multiple times that if there's a backlog onto speedball Avenue cars should go around um to pass right to go around the car you I'm pretty sure again can you confirm that in front of McDonald's it is a double yellow line it is a double yellow line which you're not supposed to pass on you don't go around on the left side of you go the right side of so you're passing on the right if a car stops and it happens all the time on speed I understand it happe let let if the car stops to make a left turn traffic uses the parking Lane to bypass them because nobody ever Parks since people it's not that you can't but nobody's parked there so that happens all the time so my question was is that legal is it legal I don't know question right please please and both and him too when one person's speaking let the other person finish I can tell you I can tell you if you looked at vo vehicle code it will probably tell you that that's not legal and it also tells you that passing on is not legal but New Jersey do doesn't have have us put left turn Lanes in when there's a shoulder because it can be used for passing so it's just one of those things that happens letter of the law I guess it's not legal but it happens it's done okay so if a car is turning right into McDonald's and and waiting to turn right into McDonald's there's also illegally passing on the left I don't know that I think the car tring right if they're far enough over are in the parking Lane and they're the ones who R it's this is semantics it's it's the way driving happens it's the way this roadway works it's the way all roadway works all roadways work it's also illegal to speaked but I don't know about you I'm usually not under the speed you know PL to go the speed limit because you will get pulled over okay than Scott grer 17 Rose just to follow up on that you said that your job is to to design a safe traffic flow right but you're suggesting that cars make illegal Maneuvers to accommodate this traffic flow I'm not suggesting that cars cars can make these Maneuvers all the time on roads all over the country and especially here I just said I sat here for about a half an hour before coming over here watching what was going on and it happens all the time I didn't de that way that's the way the road is it exists thank you Paul 18 Avenue I don't have traffic question going ask if the train my question is about the fire department and the that you showed earlier about fire department saying no comment with regard to this application been a journal for 4 years I can't I've told no comment that means that they're not going to answer the question are you taking this no comment on this fire department report as a positive versus not in fact referring to anything in the report because I've seen he didn't I think that was the attorney he made available but you can ask questions on his testimony occasionally Mr V more indulgent than he should be that's right he provided that that the public can see it but he didn't testify you can ask him if you have a question or something T so one of the experts has said that something was on a piece of paper and we can't ask a question about it if it's not about what he just he's not justifying I'm not going to go back and forth with any no so you're not answering question thanks 3 Avenue just wanted to ask um how did you gather data on bicycle and pedestrian traffic in the area or motorized which we've seen a uptake of in our area traffic there's bicycles the tick mark no Bic there were no bicycles in the report not those were times no were there any motorized SCS in the report I think I would have called that a bicycle um were there any measures considered for accommodating those non-motorized users or do you just focus on the the cars themselves we're accom we're putting a bike rack that was in the prior testimony so we're accommodating those users the roadway itself the way of the future is there going be accomodated more is very so and you said from a parking perspective but anything from a safety measure for the bicycles and nonmotorized users yeah I think that's that's the way the fure shars sidewalk see a lot more um how did you conduct Outreach to gather or did you uh conduct any Outreach together public input on traffic concerns before doing your your research I think he answered that before he didn't do that right isn't that what we're doing here well that's after the fact so it's a little you know um I also just wanted to ask um is it standard practice that a traffic expert be hired by the business looking to enter a town or is it standard that be hired by the town itself to represent it people both in the majority of what you've done is it most representing the company looking to enter the town not the town mostly that's what I do I've represent some Town boards too that traffic portion sorry that will conclude the traffic portion of this application Mr yes we'd like to call Nicholas gravan or fler my first name is Nicholas with an H last name gravano g r a v is inv Victor i a n o you SAR ttim evening and I do [Music] okay Mr grav um why don't you give the board the benefit of your education qualifications please yes I hold a bachelor's degree from Ruckers University a master's degree in city and Regional planning from Ruckers University a law degree from the Temple University School law where I received a distinguished class performance in state and local government law I'm a licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey I also hold an aicp certification I've testified before over 100 boards in 18 different counties in the state of New Jersey we'd like to qualify this witness as an expert in professional planning have any questions have you ever testified before this no I have not surrounding towns yes uh wh uh Rockway five five different municipalities in count satisfied with this credential okay thank you very do you think we want to take a break you want like three minutes or well I'm going to ask you do you think this is an appropriate time to to quit for the evening I mean we're we're prepared to go has a permanent testimony um so how long you think your I could be quick I could probably be around a half hour I I defer to what Mr would like I don't what's going on to hold off for his testimony until the next the only thing I'll say is that Mr graan um moved the family vacation to be here tonight by a day to cancel this flight reschedule it cuz we're trying to get him in um he's cuz he was not available at which which date at the next so I'm going to go out on limb and say there's going to be a few questions from the public follow Tes that's that's not going to finish tonight no no I completely understand that the only the court reporter is the only one that's taken a five minute break and we're going to start the testimony e e appr for Z [Music] [Music] qu for [Music] for for okay so we won't we will not be presenting um Mr gr's testimony this evening okay and we will respectfully request a um a meeting on December 9th um to complete Mr gravano testimony and then that's the meeting that's scheduled oh yeah they move to December so we are the next the members of the public but you probably know it the next regular scheduled meeting is the 9th and this is it's going to move to that date and it will be here and we going to we're we're we're going to schedule the next meeting that's here on the night that's the regular schedule meeting that the location is just changing from the uh council chambers to here okay yes I apologize that is the next regular meeting and and we'd like to start the meeting you'll have to send out a notice we'll start the meeting at 7 o' because we have other matters to consider okay all right so the meeting was start earlier but I also you to uh your letter carry you you letter St taken care of yeah so um I think I think we're all set yes thank you um so as you've heard the meeting is going to continue right now it's sched for 7:30 it's going to be changed so you know in advance for 7 o' here on December 9th okay thank you very much one second though I need a letter to say that you're carrying this because your letter say okay I need that okay okay thank you very good thank you and we'll see you then Happy Thanksgiving to everybody please f