Good evening and welcome to the Mars Township Planning Board hearing for July 21st, 2025. We'll be starting the hearing. I have to just do a few official things to make this legal. The legal notice required in
accordance with the open public meetings act has been satisfied and a statement certifying same will be executed. I ask everybody to please rise for a pledge of allegiance. I pledge algiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Sonia, will you give us a roll call? Turn on the microphone.
Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. here and order here. Mr. Nun here, Mr. Rabbit here, Mr. Ben here, Mr. Quins here, Mr. Ribia here, Mr. Alleso here, Miss Laney here, Mr. Warner here,
Mr. Boy here. Great. Thank you. I'm going to turn to our first uh item of under resolutions, the Red Bull Arena uh resolution. Mr. Warner, will you tee that up for us? Certainly, Mr. Chairman, the board will
recall this was a uh an application proposing the installation of cameras and antenna systems uh around the field. It was an amended site plan and variance approval. Uh and hopefully our resolution accurately memorializes the board's approval uh excuse me, our
resolution accurately memorializes the board's approval of that application. Okay. Does anyone uh have any questions on this resolution before we look for a motion to approve? We get a motion to approve. So moved.
Get a second. Second. Any discussion? All in favor? We can do roll call. Sorry. I'm sorry. Roll call. Order. Yes. Mr. Rabbit. Yes. Mr. Ben.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Mr. Allesa. Yes. Thank you. We'll move on to Spring Brook Country Club resolution. Mr. Warner. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. That also was an amended site plan and variance
application uh for the construction of a clubhouse addition improvements uh to the existing patio terrace with other related improvements. And uh since we're batting a thousand so far, hopefully we can continue to do so. And hopefully that was an accurate memorialization of the board's approval of that
application. Any questions or comments from the board on the resolution? Seeing none, could I get a motion to approve? So moved. A second. Seconded and approved. Any discussion? Sonia, could we have a roll call?
Order? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Great. Moving along to Lynn Horowitz. We can get uh Mr. Warner, if you
wouldn't mind introducing this for us. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, although I'm a little hesitant. I'm two for two, but we're going to go for three for three now. And uh this was uh not an amended site plan or variance. Uh this was a minor subdivision as the board will recall uh creating one additional lot.
Uh and as with the prior two resolutions, hopefully this also is an accurate memorialization of the board's approval of that application. Any questions on the resolution or comments? Mr. Chairman, I do have a question. Yes. I knew I wasn't going to bat three for three.
It's not the insertion of a word. Uh it's on page 15, item number 13. It's in the list of of uh addition additions, I guess you'd call it. Um and it says to the extent that such an agreement has not been entered into previously, the
applicant shall enter into an agreement or an amendment to an existing agreement with the township of bars for maintenance and operation of a storm water manage of storm water management improvement serving the property. I don't think this property requires any storm water management improvements. So
it just seems like something not to burden Miss Horowitz with. Uh well to the uh that is correct and I I frankly think well it's best to leave it with our engineer Mr. Borch who is here. He can speak to that if he wishes but uh occasionally we do have uh uh conditions
of approval that carry forward to a lot of different applications and they're not always required. Um it's more to uh ensure we have it if we need it as opposed to the contrary which would be problematic. Um, but that said, uh, if
there's no need for it, uh, and we could get confirmation of that now, uh, I'll ask our engineer to opine based on the, uh, history of the development on the property, it could be removed or in in leaving it, it would be
an indication that any facilities that are on the property would be maintained in perpetuity. Maybe it'd be prudent, if I may, Mr. Mr. Chairman to uh we can add uh if determined to be required by the township/board
engineer. I think that would be cover. So any other questions or comments? Can I get a motion to approve as amended? Motion to approve. I'll second. So you're gonna insert that language?
Yeah, we'll do. So we have Tanya Van order approved. Uh, Chief Nun seconded. Roll call orders. Sonia. Sonia. Sonia. Sorry, keep looking at
Oh, wait. Oh, yes. Thank you, Sonia. All right, now we're going to move on to public hearings. We have our first public hearing is the Mars Catch Road LLC
site division subdivision. I'll let Mr. Warner tee this up for us and give us some history on how we got here. C. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, I'll do my best for the benefit of the board, members of the public, uh to uh answer the question, how did we get here? uh
provide some historical uh context both with respect to how uh we uh arrived at an application for a 50-unit 100% affordable housing project as well as uh how uh that project was cited at this
particular site the countyowned currently county-owned uh uh land behind the ark and other uh special needs housing and other low and moderate income housing uh and I'm going to take us back uh on the journey if you will
for uh to 2017 uh 8 years or so ago uh when we uh obtained a settle through a settlement agreement our judgment of compliance and repose and met our third round affordable housing obligation
uh and we uh continued as we do today uh to be immune from builders remedy lawsuits forcing us to have uh uh even greater density cities of development in locations we have no control over whatsoever. Uh that was the case in 2017
and 2022 fast forwarding 5 years to 3 years ago about um while we were enjoying that immunity from builder's remedy lawsuits. Uh we had a situation involving the former Honeywell site, the board will recall, most were involved at
the time, uh where a portion about 80 acres, if I call recall correctly, in the center of the former uh Honeywell project and tracked that general development plan had to be amended. It provided for office as a non-residential
housing. We added to supplement additional zoning for a facility that would accommodate the Red Bulls uh state-of-the-art uh facility at that location. Uh after doing so, fair share housing center took the position uh that
we had to increase our affordable housing obligation in the third round uh by approximately 200 affordable units which would translate to about 1,000 total units uh as we know in what we
call inclusionary house housing projects with a market rate component of four or five to one of the affordable units. We were looking as a municipality at about a 1,000 unit obligation to add to our already significant third round
obligation. Uh without boring everyone for the history of that litigation, suffice to say we were vigorously defending it, made motions to dismiss. Um to some degree, regrettably, uh we had a similar case going on at the same time in front of the same judge
involving Madison Township and the Drew University Forest. Uh and we uh watched them and they did not do well in that litigation. uh and a determination was made to settle that litigation uh so
that we did not have a 1,000 unit obligation uh and the benefit of 3 years of costly litigation on top of that. Um but we had a 50 unit obligation, 12th of that magnitude. Or put another
way, we would have been facing 20 times that 50 unit obligation uh to satisfy or continue to satisfy our third round. So that was a significant development at that time. The um we were able to amend
our judgment of compliance and repose through that settlement agreement and we moved forward. Now, why that's essentially how we arrived at a 50 unit uh 100% affordable housing obligation. Uh it was in essence in large part to
avoid a 1,000 unit obligation. Uh additionally, how did we arrive at this site? I don't know if everyone recalls or knows uh but this site is owned by the county and the county uh uh entered
into discussions with the township back as far as 2012. Now, I'm going back, I'm gonna do the hard math, about 13 years. Uh, and uh, and and it was considered as a possible site for affordable housing
given at the time in 2012 and 2017, we were looking at potentially a 1,00 unit obligation as a township, at least 800 units, if not maybe a thousand. We were ultimately able to reduce that to what we call an RDP of 400 units. And we
ultimately were not uh we did not have to at in back in the third round uh back in 2012 and 2017 utilize this county owned land. However, uh uh uh because of that
commitment that was made by the county uh and because of the fact that we had a 50-unit obligation as a result of this settlement, uh the county stepped up again and offered to allow the township to in essence get it get the land and uh
transfer it to the 100% affordable housing developer which results in a variety of things including the fact that it saves I think the township at least a million if not more dollars uh and all of us uh corresponding tax ratables uh or excuse me tax assessment
of those dollars uh because the land is being contributed by the county not having to uh for us to purchase it. Uh and it also allows uh for the project to indeed be a 100% affordable project and
only 50 units rather than a market rate unit project which would be five times that amount or 250 units. Uh and uh the site is what it is owned by the county and the location is behind existing special needs and affordable housing. So
that is how we ultimately arrived at the site. I wanted to answer the two questions. How did we get here? 100 a 50-unit 100% affordable housing project. How did we get here this particular site? Now, having answered
those two questions and as this board knows, we've over the last uh 6 months or so gone through a process in the uh with this as well as our fourth round where we have designated this site an area in need of redevelopment because it
qualifies as such. Uh, and it allows for the potential for lowincome housing tax credits so that the township and the residents of this township ultimately have to pay little if anything uh for this project as opposed
to an inclusionary project um to to go forward. Um but now that I've spoken about the site and I've spoken about how we've got arrived at this particular site as a municipality given our obligations which are statutory it's
from the legisl uh from the legislature there's nothing we can do about it other than the best we can with it uh the uh I want to remind the board that our jurisdiction at this stage uh is not unlimited okay as you know we are a
planning board the site selection comes to us. Uh the how it arrive how we arrived at this site or whether there's some other site that somebody might want is not within our jurisdiction. It just simply isn't it would be illegal
for us to consider that. Also, we have a redevelopment plan ordinance that uh by law, the local redevelopment and housing law governs the zoning for this site. So we are subject to that legislation.
Uh we cannot legislate from the bench so to speak as a quasi judicial body this board. Uh so we must abide by that redevelopment plan. And as I understand it the this is a subdivision application as well as a fully conforming site plan
application conforming with that redevelopment plan. The only deviation being not with the redevelopment plan, but as I understand it with the uh municipal land use law that the lot does not front a street on a street. Um and
the uh to remind the board when that occurs, the primary if not exclusive consideration for the board is is the emergency access sufficient and we're privileged to have our fire official on the board. uh so uh so uh amongst other
board members. So uh so with that refresher of the historical context uh as well as a reminder legally what we can and cannot consider um unless there's any questions from the
board uh what I can do is uh uh uh confirm with respect to the board's jurisdiction the notice that was provided and then we could hear from the applicant and I could swear in all the witnesses when when appropriate. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Warner. Great job. I just want to ask anyone on the
board, any of the board members, if they understand clearly what's before us tonight. They were just talking about a site plan application, not about how we got here. Is everybody good with that? Mr. Chairman, just real quick, if if it I would like to take Mr. Warner up on
the notice aspect. We did hear uh a bit about that at the township committee meeting. So, um, to address it here might, uh, answer some questions that members of the public might have. Sure. I'll I'll I'll pine on the notice.
Yeah. Just, uh, does anyone else have any questions about what where we're at tonight? Okay. Then, Mr. Warner, why don't we proceed and give us the notice and ask the applicant to, uh, get started? Cir. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, I did, as always with all our applications review
uh, in detail the notice that was provided. uh the content is sufficient. It meets with the municipal land use law and the local redevelopment and housing law requirements and then some frankly as far as content and as far as timeliness uh it was certified mailed on
July 9th published on July 11th uh both at least 10 days prior to this evening which is the jurisdictional requirement under the municipal land use law. So uh in short um which is funny for me to say cuz I rarely am very uh short in my
speech stat physical stature maybe perhaps but the the the the um the uh uh the board does have jurisdiction to hear and decide the application based upon the timely notice and the sufficient content therein. Okay. Thank you Mr. Rabbitz. Is that
satisfactory? Yes. Great. So, let's have the applicant come up and prepare their uh present their case. Good evening, Mr. Good evening, Mr. Chairman and members of the board. My name is Nicole Madziak,
M A G D Z I A K of the law firm Dave Pittney. Here this evening on behalf of the applicant Morris Catch Road LLC. As you heard from Mr. Warner, we are here this evening seeking both a minor subdivision approval and preliminary site plan. What makes this application
maybe a little bit unique from other site plan applications that you've heard is that we are only seeking preliminary approval at this time. So that does mean that we do have to come back to this board for final site plan approval. We cannot construct anything based on a preliminary approval only. But we are
specifically bifurcating this particular application because it is a 100% affordable housing pro um project that we are seeking um HMFA state funding for. So the requirement for that funding at this stage is to have preliminary approval only. So that's the the purpose
behind bifurcating the application. So, our task here this evening in the context of a preliminary site plan approval is to provide sufficient information for the board to make the determination that we have met the preliminary um site plan requirements and that the project is feasible based
on things like traffic and circulation and the um environmental constraints on the property and those sorts of details which our experts will present this evening. So, in connection with the minor subdivision, which we will speak to first because it sets up the property on
which the development will occur, um we are seeking to subdivide lot 1.01 and lot 1 in block 1901. As Mr. Warner has previously stated, those properties are owned by the county of Morris. We did have their consent to file this application among other agreements with
the county related to this particular development. the property that we are proposing the development on as you'll hear this evening we are calling proposed lot six and that is the lot designation that the tax assessor has provided to us. So if you hear us talking about lot six um in the context
of our development that is the lot after minor subdivision and so if you're looking at your paperwork saying well why aren't we talking about 1.01 and one it's because lot six is what will result after that subdivision. There are um the only improvements that are proposed
outside of lot 6 relate to the access drive that's already there. And that's really um just maintenance and updates to that um portion of the property which you'll hear. It's not new development in terms of buildings or um storm water or anything else related to our particular development.
Um as you heard, we are proposing a 50 unit 100% affordable project. The project will comply with the U-Hack requirements for the bedroom distribution, which we'll have detailed testimony on this evening as well. We do have two
witnesses with us this evening. Mr. Keller of Bowman Consulting, who many of you may recognize from other applications. He has appeared before this board many times. He will be testifying as our civil engineer, our traffic engineer, and our planner. He is licensed in all three and we will
certainly qualify him when he is called and and we intend for him to be our first witness. And then our second witness um is our architects from Englace Architecture and they will be speaking to the general building design and also the floor plans. As you'll hear from them, we are proposing three
buildings for these 50 units. One is a three-story building to the rear of the property which will contain 24 units and then the other 26 units are split up in a 12 unit and a 14 unit two-story building towards the front portion of the property. Um so we do have some exhibits here this evening that are
colored versions and an aerial photograph of what was submitted to the board. So we'll also mark those as we are presenting them as well. Um we have the benefit of being logged into the Zoom so we can put them up on the screen and we also have boards if it's helpful for some people to see it that way. So,
with that, I'd like to um invite Mr. Keller up as our first. Yeah. Before you do that, I'd like to just ask, can Mr. Keller give all three of his disciplines at the same time? And then what I'm going to ask is that we'll have the professionals, our
professionals, our board members, and the public ask questions of him on all three of his disciplines. There's a lot of people here, and I know that this is timely for everyone, so I want to try to move this along. Not not that we're in a rush to finish, but we want to just be
um efficient as possible. So, we're going to ask Mr. Keller and but what I'd like to do before that is I'd like to ask our attorney to swear in all the witnesses as well as our professionals. Well, we'll do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh and we have our applicants witnesses
as well as our board professionals to my right and left. Do all of you swear to God or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. I do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Warner. And if I understood correctly, Mr. Chairman, you meant the board and members of the public and board
professionals will await uh Mr. Keller's testimony in its entirety uh on all three disciplines before asking questions. Is that Yes, that's the way we'd like to proceed tonight. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are prepared to proceed in that manner this evening as well.
Great. Good evening, everyone. Nice to be back. Floor is yours. Thank you. Um, so just just I'm sorry, just as a reminder for the public who may not have been to a planning board meeting before. So this this witness will give testimony on the
three disciplines. So I ask you to hold your questions until we open up the floor for questions from the public. So just as a little housekeeping item. Thank you so much. So, Mr. Keller, can you please for the benefit of the board just briefly provide your background and education so
we can qualify you in the three disciplines of civil engineering, traffic engineering, and I'm going to help Mr. Keller out. He's been here a number of times. Is your license in good order? Yes, both my professional engineers license and professional planners license in New Jersey are current and in good standing.
Okay. And just for the record, the traffic engineering part is a specialty that I have testified many times on before this board. It is not a separate lensure or licenses professional engineers, but that covers my site civil
experience as well as my traffic experience. Sorry. Yes, please, Mr. War. Yeah. No, and and we don't mean to limit you. If you want to put your qualifications on the record, you certainly can in an abbreviated format. I I I've done it many, many times. I you
know, I I want to kind of move this along as Mr. Allesio has indicated. Okay. Then you're you're an acceptable witness. Thank you, Sarah. So, I want to give uh a brief overview first and then we're going to talk about
the the minor subdivision. So, the tract is known as block 1901, lots 1 and 101, which are located on Catch Road near its intersection with West Hanover Avenue. We are seeking minor subdivision approval and preliminary site plan
approval. Uh, as indicated, we're seeking to create a new lot, lot six, which is made up of a piece of lot one, uh, and lot 101, which are both owned by the county of Mars. Uh, lot 101 is
leased to Ark of Mars. The area of the proposed lot 6 is 3.54 acres, which exceeds the minimum lot area within the redevelopment plan of 3 acres. Access to proposed lot six will be via an access
easement across the remainder of lot one which is an existing paved driveway that currently serves Catch Road Field in the playground uh thereupon. Um that driveway existing driveway intersects
with Catch Road opposite Manor Drive. Um the proposal is to construct 50 units of which 14 units will be for supportive housing uh which uh is a subset of
affordable housing uh and will be for Ark Morris and for uh developmentally disabled through uh the Bergen County United Way. uh as indicated this is a 100% affordable housing development. Uh
most times we're coming before you to talk about an inclusionary housing development. There is no market rate units on this site. It is 100% affordable. Um the proposed development is compliant in every way with the bulk
requirements, excuse me, that are set forth in the catch road redevelopment plan. Now, if we can go to the minor subdivision, you put that up. Okay. And Mr. Keller, just for the record, this is the minor subdivision that was submitted to the board.
That that is correct. That was prepared uh by a licensed professional land surveyor in my office. I have reviewed it. Um and um can you give us the last revised date just so we can uh reference
it? over usually requires zooming in. Yes, sorry. Covered by this. Okay. The last revision date is July 8th, 2025. Thank you. It does not have to be marked as a separate exhibit.
This was submitted as part of our application to the board more than 10 days ago. So therefore, it doesn't need to be separately marked. Thank you. Uh proposed lot six uh is being created by subdividing 1.86 86
acres from lot one. Lot one is a approximately 109 acre parcel owned by the county. Uh there will be 107.3 acres left over uh when the assuming approval
of this subdivision and it is acquire taking 1.68 acres from lot 1.01 which is a Mars Arc lot which is currently 3.02 02 acres and will be a 1.35 acre remainder. In addition, there is a
proposed access sidewalk and utility easement uh over the balance of lot one which will provide access to this parcel. um will accommodate a sidewalk that is being constructed as part of this
project as well as utilities that will run through the existing roadway. Um there is also a drainage easement. Um this drainage easement is in the northeast portion of the proposed lot
and it's actually in favor of the Ark parcel. The Arks drainage currently goes onto the housing authority site which is at the corner of Handover Avenue and Catch Road. Now that that
portion where that storm pipe goes is not going to be on their lot, we need to provide a drainage easement so they can continue to discharge their storm water runoff across this new lot onto the housing authority lot where there's already a
drainage ement. Um, also this site needs relief from the municipal land use law as this site does not have frontage on a public street and that relief is required from 40 col 55D-35
which requires that the site or any site have frontage on a public street. Now we, as I just indicated, there is a proposed access easement across the remainder of lot one, which will provide
access. So there is a viable, a usable, and a reasonable access to this property across the remainder of the county's lot out to a public street, that being Catch Road. Um
and that access is more than sufficient for the residents, for visitors, delivery vehicles and most importantly for emergency services. Um this is expressly permitted as part
of the catch road redevelopment plan. Um now the municipal land use law in the subsequent section after 35 in 40 55D-36
where it states that enforcement of section 35 would entail practical difficulty or unnecessary hardship. The planning board may permit this subject to conditions that will provide adequate access for firefighting equipment,
ambulances, and other emergency vehicles necessary for the protection of health and safety, and that will protect any future street layout shown on the official map. Well, there is no other street in the area, so we're not preserving a future street. But it is my
position as a professional engineer and a professional planner that this access driveway that will connect from catch road to the project site will provide more than adequate access for emergency
services. Um, further this access is the most direct and appropriate access to this parcel and is how it was crafted and set forth in the redevelopment plan for this track. Um,
so what I'd like to now do is go to the existing conditions. Ariel, Mr. Mr. Keller, just before we jump to the existing conditions, one item related to the minor subdivision is that um if the minor subdivision is approved by this board this evening, we would
have a requirement of to record the minor subdivision deed within 190 days of a resolution memorializing any decision that may be made this evening. So, we are seeking approval for a one-year extension of that minor subdivision, which this board is permitted to grant based on the fact
that this is a bifurcated preliminary and final site plan application. We will know in that time period whether or not funding has been awarded for this particular project and would be proceeding with the final site plan application within that time period. So instead of coming back to the board in
um less than 190 days to seek that extension since we know we're going to need that at this time and we are requesting that from the board this evening as well. Mr. Warner, any comment? Uh no, it's uh it would in my opinion le from a legal perspective be appropriate to ask for
knowing that it's going to be required rather than wait 185 189 days to come back to this board because we do have the circumstance where if there's an approval this evening the minor subdivision would be approved. The clock would start ticking immediately but uh it's reasonable to assume the final
approval may not come until after 190 days. Uh, so the board has the authority and the jurisdiction to do it and uh, from a legal perspective and arguably a common sense perspective, it makes sense. Thank you, Mr. Warner. Thank you, Mr. Keller. I will pull up.
Okay, perfect. So, what we've done separate share. Here we go. I want to get ahead of everybody here. We'll wait for that to No. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. move this box.
So, in the center of the aerial, and Mr. Warren will have to mark this as exhibit A1. This is entitled existing conditions aerial uh prepared by my office and I can't read the date. If you could read that July 17th, 2025.
Thank you. Um, the subject parcel that is being sought for development is kind of a hammer-shaped uh outlined in yellow in the middle of the site that says project site. Um,
the site, as you can see, is currently vacant. Um, historically it was used for farmland, but it has not been used as such for many years. There is successional growth. There are some wooded areas that have cropped up.
There's also in the uh southwesterly portion of the site, the Campford portion of the property. Um there are uh small area of wetlands that come onto the property which have been delineated
uh by our uh wetland scientist. Um and we are proceeding with the letter of interpretation from the D for that. uh they have examined the uh what we call the landscape project. What are the
types of uh flora and fauna in this area and they are very confident that that wetland is a uh intermediate resource value wetland and has a 50-foot transition area. Um the existing uh uses
and I'd use my pointer but it doesn't work on the TVs. So, um to the east of this site is the uh existing Mars Arc. There is a single family home
uh just to the right of that. And then you have the housing authority uh property uh at the corner of Hanover and Catch Road. you have a solar field and then further west is uh the Mars View Healthc Care Center a as well as other
county facilities. Uh the topography of this site, the runoff from this site uh currently runs in the northeast direction which means it goes onto the housing authority property today and it will continue to do so though in a
managed form uh under the proposed conditions. So that is the property that is the 3.54 acre parcel that we are seeking to develop. So we can go to the site plan. The site plan is entitled site plan
rendering prepared by my office also dated July 17th of 2025. Um and what we have done what we've done is taken so this will be exhibit A2 with today's date. um is we have
superimposed our site plan drawings which you all have uh colored those areas into the aerial that was used in exhibit A1. So those portions of that three and a half acre site that are
being left undisturbed, um the wetland area in the southwest corner of the site, an area where the arcs drainage system goes uh through this new lot onto the housing authority
site um are shown with the underlying area. We're not going to touch those areas. The green shading areas are the limited disturbance associated with this development. Now, we are proposing, as
shown on here, three buildings. Building one, which is in the northwest corner of the site, the furthest from Catch Road, is a three-story building. Um, and then buildings two and three are two-story buildings. And then near the uh
southeast corner of the site near the ark home is a clubhouse and play area. Um and the clubhouse is one story. Correct. That is correct. So the bedroom breakdown uh for this project is
10 one-bedroom units, 27 two-bedroom units, and 13 threebedroom units. The parking requirement as set forth in the redevelopment plan is one and a half spaces per unit for a total of 75
spaces. Um, as far as where the supportive housing units are within the three buildings, I'm going to defer to our architect and he will get more into the look of the buildings, the floor plans
and so on. Um, now we're all familiar uh with the state legislation that was adopted about four years ago for electric vehicle charging equipment. Um, residential projects, multif family residential projects are required to
provide 15% of the required parking as EV. uh a third has to be built at the outset of the project, a third within three years after that, and the final third
three years after that. For this project, 15% of 75 rounds up to 12 uh EV charging stations. Um one/3 would be four. So we have four,
four and four. And they are shown on the site plans. they are located approximate to each of the buildings and the um we also receive a I'll call it a
credit uh a reduction in the required amount of parking for up to 10% of those of the required parking because of the EV. So in this case we get a credit of seven
parking spaces. So technically our parking requirement for this project is 68 spaces. That all being said, we're providing 89. So we are providing almost 1.8 spaces
per unit. um the supportive housing units in discussions with our team um on average about one in 10 of those supportive housing units have a car. So most of
those 14 we're going to have one maybe two vehicles associated with those 14 units. So that leaves 36 units that would be um regular uh family units,
low, very low, low and moderate. Um we are providing a sidewalk system within the community. There is sidewalks across the frontage of each building uh adjacent to the parking area. those all
interconnect um connect to the house and then we're extending bless you that sidewalk down to the existing sidewalk on catch road. There's an existing sidewalk on Catch
Road. Um, across this property um, matter of fact, at this location, it actually crosses Catch Road to the other side to the east side of Catch Road. Um, and works its way down almost to Lake
Road. Doesn't quite get there. It flips back and forth across Catch Road a couple of times. um to the north. It runs across the Morris Arc property. It runs up to the first driveway for the housing authority and then it stops. So,
it does not provide access to Handover Avenue. Um at Handover Avenue, there are crosswalks on all four corners. There's landings there. Um and uh we have had some preliminary discussions about is
there an ability to extend that sidewalk and those discussions will continue with the uh with the township as we move forward. U but for now we're providing a connection from these three buildings out to catch road to the existing
sidewalk. Um and that sidewalk actually for a portion runs adjacent to the driveway and it runs off on a separate path so that we can provide an accessible route down to catch road. So that's why it veers off away from the
driveway so that we can provide an accessible route uh for that sidewalk. Um, and that sidewalk is part of the overall access sidewalk utility easement that I
talked about with the minor subdivision. Uh all of the proposed uh act well the proposed access driveway and internal streets are 24 feet in width which is compliant with the residential site improvement standards RSIS that governs
all residential development within New Jersey um and has for now 28 years. Uh there are two 15 by 20 foot refu and recycling enclosures. Um they're masonry. One is to the southoutheast of
building two, one is to the south of building one. Um those will provide uh accommodations for all of the residents within this community. There are sidewalks that lead to those, so they
will be able to access those. Um, we have also prepared a uh fire truck circulation plan for the township's aerial truck. This we will also have to mark.
This is exhibit A3 entitled truck turning plan sheet one of one. Keep panning down. Oh, you're going to have to move your It's It's right above the bowman. There should be a date in there. June 10th, 2025.
Um we generally we A3. Thank you. Um, we use uh accepted software. We do this a lot. You've seen me testify to this before. Uh, and we
show a fire truck, an aerial fire truck coming in uh from Handover Avenue, making the right turn into the site, negotiating the driveway, making the turn into the site, and being able to make a K turn uh back by building one.
there is sufficient depth on the uh on that hammerhead to accommodate the movement of a firet truck. Um and that is compliant with RSIS.
RSIS uh only requires that there be a means of turning a vehicle around. It does not require a culde-sac. We just have to be able to allow any type of vehicle refuge truck uh to be able to turn around. This would also be uh
similar to the route that a refuge and recycling truck would make. Uh we haven't modeled that because that vehicle actually is a little smaller and more maneuverable than the fire truck has less overhang. So, if we can get the
fire truck around, we can get the uh breast truck uh and any other type of single unit truck uh through this development. Um we are proposing a project monument sign which is proposed along Catch Road
on the south side of the existing driveway. That sign is 24 square ft in size for the legend. It's a 4x6 ft panel with the name of the project, Residences at Mars
Woods. Um, it is on a stone base and it has a total height of 6'4 in. The sign is set back 5T from the catch road right away which complies with the redevelopment plan.
um the site as pretty much any site in New Jersey, uh at least in northern New Jersey, we have some topography on that on this site. We have used um this is a good point because it shows it pretty clearly. There are uh a number of
retaining walls that we're proposing around the uh retention basins um behind building one and along the parking area u back by building one. This doesn't show the we have another and and one by
building two. Thank you. Uh this doesn't show the other uh bio retention basin mission is behind building three and that also has a retainable. So maybe we go back to the proposed site plan if you
don't mind which is exhibit A2. No. Yes. A2. Um the walls are are fairly modest and and height will range from a maximum of two
and a half to just under six feet. Um they are uh proposed with fences on top, post and rail fences with mesh um to provide the necessary fall protection on the top of those walls that exceed uh
the required height. Um, storm water. Storm water is something we spend a lot of time on. Um, this is categorized as a major development as set forth in the township ordinances and
also under the state regulations as set forth in NJAC 7 colon 8 as such. And it it's a major development because we're disturbing more than one acre of property and we're creating more than a quarter acre of new impurities.
Um we have prepared a storm water report uh dated June 20th of this year on how we've met those requirements. The requirements set forth provisions that we must reduce
the rate of runoff for now six storms um to 50% reduction for the two-year storm. the storm that uh has a
general occurrence of two years. Um 75% for the 10-year storm and 80% reduction a 20% reduction 80% of what the current runoff is for the 100redyear storm. We
have to reduce it to that amount. When I talk about six storms, we have the 2-year, the 10-year, the 100year storm under today's precipitation levels. The state also requires us to look at that rainfall that they expect to occur in
the year 2100. So, we're planning for the future. Um, and this project will provide the necessary reductions in the rates of runoff for each of those storms. Now we
are meeting that in a uh variety of of manners. Storm water from the site will be collected at inlets. It will be conveyed through pipes. Um we have two bio retention basins, one by the clubhouse, one behind building three.
And on this site we are also using uh pvious pavement. Um all of the parking spaces uh will utilize pvious pavement. And what pvious pavement is, the water runs when it rains, the water goes through it. Um there is a stone bed
beneath that. We have each one of those pavement areas has a control structure that the water flows into and then we meter it out and then they go to the two bio retention basins. Those bio
retention basins have a soil mix in the bottom. They are planted uh heavily planted um which provide um water quality. We have to provide water quality treatment to remove suspended
solids uh to a level of 80% reduction in all of the motor vehicle surfaces. That's the driveways, the parking spaces. So that pvious pavement that those materials will be trapped in the pvious pavement. the driveways uh will
be captured in both the pvious pavement and in the fire retention basins. Um and we also are required so we have quantity controls which are the reductions in the rates of runoff. We
have water quality where we're improving the uh quality of the water that is running off this site. Uh and then the final aspect of that is groundwater recharge. Um the site is wooded so we
have to provide for groundwater recharge. Even though we are in a metropolitan planning area, we have to provide that uh recharge back into the ground and that is being met both in the pvious pavement areas and in the bio
retention bases. So that's our story on storm water. The bottom line is that there will be less runoff at a rate of runoff from this site which goes through the housing authority
property onto uh handover avenue and eventually down into the Whippony River. So we are managing it in accordance with the township's ordinance as well as the state regulations. Now we are also providing uh other
utilities to serve this site. We have water which is provided by Southeast Mars County MUA. Um we are in the Highland Woods zone of Southeast Morris's system. There is a
the Highland Highland Woods tank which is up Hanover Avenue. um it has an overflow elevation of a th00and. Our site is just under elevation 600. So
there is quite a elevation change. Obviously there is uh system losses as the water runs from that tank down through this entire water system within this community serving this community. And I know the fire department is
looking for flow tests which we will get from Southeast Mars. We don't have them yet, but I'm confident given where that tank is that serves and supplies water to this system to this portion of the system that we're we'll be in good shape. We are currently proposing to
connect to an 8 in main in catch road. Um we're continuing to have discussions with Southeast Mars. Um generally and we've done a lot of work within their uh service area. Um a lot of times
they will want a hot box as Miss Laney knows we've we've done that a few times before in other communities. Um and they're not the most attractive thing but we can manage that. We can shield it. Um, but we're still discussing with
Southeast Mars how they want us to deal with the water. Our initial thought is that we'll have a hot box on Catch Road. The water will be served for this whole community through that hot box um which
meters and controls the flow into the site um to serve both fire flow for this project as well as domestic. Um the residential site improvement standards establish water demands for
uh for these type of units based on upon the uh bedroom count. Um based on that data, this project will generate a water demand of 7,525 gallons per day on average, which is
fairly modest. Um, we will provide fire hydrants through the community. We'll discuss that with the fire department as we always do to locate them in the most appropriate locations and to meet the
needs uh for the buildings and for the fire department. Um, there is moving on to sanitary sewer. There is an existing sanitary sewer main that runs through the site from the north uh going to the
south that has a couple of existing lateral connections for the Mars Arc building and for the K9 facility I believe. Um we will have to relocate that realign that u because currently it
goes right through building two um and we don't want to do that. So, uh, part of this project will relocate that existing sanitary sewer. Um, each of the buildings will be connected to that sanitary sewer. Um, and it will continue
to convey sewage uh to the south uh to the Butterworth plant. But plant, well, to the treatment plant that the township manages. Um the um and that will include the
clubhouse. The clubhouse will be sewered as well and that'll be also connected to the sanitary sewer. The sanitary sewer demand is calculated based upon D regulations uh which require different
uh flow rates for us to use. And based upon the D rates, this project will generate 11,475 gallons per day. Um, electric telephone cable will also be brought into this
site from Ket Road. All of those facilities will be placed underground um and will come in uh and serve each of the the buildings. Um, we'll talk about lighting for a little bit. Um, Mr. Keller, before we
jump to lighting on the utilities as because this is just a preliminary site plan only in your professional opinion as you've described for the board, utilities are available and it is feasible to get them to the site. Correct. Absolutely. Yes. Thank you.
Uh, we are proposing full cut off high efficiency LED decorative lights. Um, they will be on dust to dawn. Uh, they are have a mounting height of 14 feet. Um the average intensity in a parking
area is just over one foot candle uh which is fairly nominal um but appropriate. It will provide sufficient lighting for the residents for guests um and for emergency services to be able to
illuminate the park the drive aisles as well as the parking lot. We are also extending lights down the sidewalk down along the access drive out to catch road. We have a we're proposing a light at the intersection of the existing
driveway and catch road. Um all of the street light street light street light. Um, these are 14 the light is 14 feet in height, much less than the the lights
that JCPNL puts on the utility poles. Um, it is a single light at the intersection so that we can illuminate uh the intersection so anybody driving along catch road will be able to see that there is a vehicle there.
Um it's my opinion that this provides an adequate amount of light appropriate for a residential community. We're not trying to overlight the area. Um it appro provides appropriate illumination throughout the site itself. Um
landscaping we have uh provided a a a very thorough and comprehensive landscaping plan uh which incorporates a mix of shade, ornamental and evergreen trees that includes maples, oaks, uh
service berry, holl and arbor vite um 36 in total. In addition, we're providing uh over a 100 deciduous deciduous and evergreen shrubs as well as a number of ground covers and other
uh plant material. Um and that is outside of the bio retention basins. We have a a very detailed planting plan for the bio retention basin because that is a requirement of the regulatory
requirements to make those bio retention basins provide the benefits that they're supposed to of absorbing pollutants suspended solids um and uptake of of runoff.
Um want to touch on traffic a little bit. Um when we do traffic studies um we use the Institute of Transportation Engineers trip generation manual the 11th edition.
Um it is a compilation of uh data collected uh throughout the country for residential projects. The database is extensive. Um the when we
look at this, we look at this from a peak hour perspective. Now the peak hour is the 60minute period sometime generally between 7 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. when traffic is expected to be at its
highest. It's not the total amount of traffic that will be entering or leaving the site. It's that traffic that this project will generate in that 60 minute period. Happens again in the afternoon peak hour which generally occurs from 4
to 6 p.m. Now based upon the IT data for 50 units and I want to be conservative. I used the 50 units um because while the supportive housing units generally have a very low auto
ownership, they may have other support services uh that will um be coming to the site generally not in the peak hour but I wanted to be conservative. So based upon the IT data, those 50 units
in the morning peak hour would generate 20 peak hour trips, five in, 15 out. In the PM peak hour would be 26 trips, 16 in and 10 out. Now, both the IT, the
DOT, and most agencies, when you look at traffic volumes of that small magnitude, um we don't generally do traffic studies for projects that are less than 100 peak hour trips. Some communities, some
counties require us to study it for 50 trips. We're less than half of that of 50 trips. were a quarter of that or more of the 100 uh peak hour trip threshold. The the amount of traffic that would be
generated by this development um is consistent with the use of that driveway will not have an operational impact upon the traffic flows along Catch Road. Um, we've looked at sight distances from
this driveway at Catch Road. Um, and they are more than sufficient. There is clear sight distance in both directions uh to see approaching vehicles whether it's from Hanover Avenue or from Lake Road. Obviously, this aligns directly
with Manor Drive. There's clear sight distance to vehicles coming down Manor Drive. So um the operational characteristics of this are more than adequate to accommodate the traffic that
would be generated by this project. Now as we go through the approval process for this project um as we go into final site plan hopefully sooner rather than later. Uh we also need uh approval from
the Mars County Planning Board, which we actually have submitted for at this point. We want to get that uh squared away. Um since the county does own the property, um we need approval from the Mars County Soil Conservation District,
which looks at soil erosion measures that are required as part of any development um in the state. Uh we will also have uh D with the letter of interpretation and we'll need a transition area averaging plan. We're
going to reduce the buffer in a certain area increase in another which is very standard uh actions approvals required from the D. Um sewer will need approval from the township for the conveyance
system for the wastewater uh plant and also from the D. Um for the water uh we only need approval from Southeast Mars. They have a master permit so we don't have to go to D for that. We deal with Southeast Mars which we have been in
discussions with. And I think I've covered anything that I missed something Nicole. No. And in terms of the outside agency approvals, those are all the standard agencies that whether we're seeking preliminary approval only or preliminary and final that we would anticipate needing as a condition of approval.
That is correct. We would need all of those regardless. And Mr. Keller, we were in receipt of review letters from the fire department and fire chief based on a we have one site inspection report and then also their full report. and we are in receipt
of a review letter from the TCC committee and also from SMCMUA. So, if we can just I believe we touched on everything in those review letters. Um, the fire department review letter had four comments relating to the fire apparatus access and turning radi. We
presented the truck turning template plan in order to address the comment relating to how the truck would be able to navigate the site. Correct. Correct. and we'll submit that to the fire department so they can review it in in in greater detail. Um fire hydrant coverage, we will work
with the fire department um to not only site fire hydrants but in terms of location but also number. So whatever the fire department recommends, we are agreeable to installing um water supply and pressure. Mr. Keller, you had noted that um we don't anticipate any issues
with the water pressure and flow test would be available in advance of final site plan. Correct. We'll we'll work with Southeast Mars for that. I I don't think uh knowing the water system in this area that we'll have an issue with it, but we'll confirm that so we can um you know
assure the fire department they have sufficient pressure. And the last comment related to emergency access road and the recommendation of a secondary road. Can you please just touch on that and the feasibility of providing a secondary access? Certainly. We've Let me take a step
back. First, under the residential site improvement standards, we're not required to provide a second means of access. Um, however, emergency access, emergency, I'm sorry, second means of access, emergency access. Um, we provide
sufficient access. However, with that being said, we have um looked at uh preliminarily making a connection to the housing authority. And you can see at the end of the drive aisle between
buildings two and three, um the grades work. Um it does not impact on any of their existing parking spaces. Um, we just need to make sure that they have no objections to having
an emergency access driveway between the two properties. Um, that lot is owned by the housing authority. uh and we have uh started to reach out for that but it is fe physically
feasible and we would anticipate providing reinforced grass pavers that could accommodate emergency vehicles. Correct. Correct. Correct. And we can delineate that. Um I've seen it a number of ways. uh delineators, landscaping. Um you know,
again, we can work with all the parties involved on how best to do that. Um Okay. And we are currently addressing the SMC MUA Yes. review letter that we received dated July 18th, 2025 directly with that agency. Correct.
That is correct. That's all we have on direct for this witness. Okay, we're going to open up the uh questions to our professionals first. Then we're going to go to our board members and then we're going to invite members of the public to ask questions.
Questions are for this witness only. Questions are on civil traffic and planning testimony only. No, I'm going to just ask and reiterate. Nobody should be giving us comments or opinions. These are direct questions about the testimony
to clarify for everybody's understanding what the witness testified to. Mr. Warner Chairman, and just for the benefit of the members of the public, just for the benefit of the members of the public, there will be an opportunity after questions are asked of both
witnesses for them to make public comment under oath. Correct. That is correct. Thank you for uh adding that. Okay. So, I'm gonna ask our engineer if he would like to start with any questions. And again, just to remind everyone since
we are a big audience and a a large group here, just ask that everybody kind of focus on the fact that we don't want to have repatory questions. So, if you could listen to the questions that are being asked and the answers so that we don't have repatory questions, it'll
drag on the process. Thank you. So, uh, we'll start, uh, regards to existing conditions. Um, I believe an exhibit for it, exhibit A1. Yeah. And so, uh, with the existing conditions in the project site area um
and and your testimony noted the historic uses of the area as, uh, woodlands, farm. Um yeah the phase one anal uh phase one environmental report that was done so historically it had been used for farmland um obviously it has not been
used as such for a while and successional growth has come up which are the wood wooded areas uh shrubby growth and things like that. So that phase one environmental assessment um was able to address a full understanding
of the site's existing land cover, the density of the woods as well as then the presence of the intermediate resource wetlands. The the wetlands are not in in the phase one report. Um the same environmental
consultant, Eco Sciences, um also did a wetlands investigation um and as part of the uh LOI application uh in the transition area averaging plan that we will be submitting. Um there
will be environmental reports as a it's a requirement of the D approval process. So which will look at the uh conditions of those wetlands and the adjacent areas and that would also include the habitats
and understanding of the species in the area. Corre correct correct. They they have done that and based upon their review of that data off of the D's uh database uh they're very confident that this is an
intermediate resource value wetland which has a 50-foot transition area and the proposed improvements are limiting the disturbance to only the transition areas. Correct. Alls we're doing is reducing it in part um and increasing in other parts
which is the way the averaging uh plan requirements are set forth. We can reduce it to a certain degree. we have to provide a equal or greater amount of compensatory uh area of a similar character and uh
since that area in the southwest portion of the site is generally the same it is a a similar character. Um for the benefit of the board, this the line of questioning is directly related to establishing the facts of our EIS
requirements and our and our um code and that the environmental portions of the pro project including the uh existing species land cover are all fully vetted as part of the uh application process to D for the wetlands.
Thank you. Um I think turn to the um proposed condition. I guess it was exhibit A1. Proposed conditions. Yeah, that that that'll suffice. A2
A2. Um so uh the discussions on both A2 as well as in the turning exhibit uh for the fire fire truck uh saw the adequacy of access in and out of the site both in the proposed lot improvements as well as
then through the existing corridor of our our driveway to the uh the recreational fields. Um my assessment of that driveway is that the the driveway is in a fair condition. It is worn. Uh
but it it does have consistent width. Um and in your review of the area, did you find that the consistent width uh provides ample room on both sides of the the vehicles to make those turns? I I believe so. And uh I mean this would
be when this goes into construction, we'll monitor it. Um we if we have utilities in that roadway, we'll you know we'll have to restore that existing driveway. Um and uh I you know I agree with
the characterization that it is in fair condition. So with um the existing topography in that roadway fairly uh minor sloping into the property relative ease of access for all sizes of vehicles. Correct. And so
it it slopes gently down from Catch Road and then flattens out. Um and then we will be sloping up into our site. Um and uh you know so based on the the nature of the
utilities that may disturb the area and then also uh consideration for the timing of the current fair conditions and uh future timing of construction would be reasonable to to work with the municipality on um extensions of milling and paving of that area.
Absolutely. Yes. Thank you. Um the sidewalks coming from the facility out to Catch Road. Uh those are more notably in the the the green area on the exhibit. Correct. Uh they they separate from the
roadway itself. Correct. They from the clubhouse within the site and past the clubhouse and the first part of the access drive. They run parallel um to the uh internal driveways, the existing access driveway. As we get
closer to catch road, we veer off. Um and that is to provide uh an accessible route. Um, you know, there is some topography in that area and we're seeking to connect to the existing catch
road sidewalk just at the boundary line between the county lot, lot one and the park lot 1.01. So, it will come down and connect in that location. will have improved ADA accessibility into your your subject uh
site, but also to the intersection of the driveway for uh internal intersection of of the parking lot, the wreck facilities and and the um proposed affordable housing. That is correct. Yes. So there'll be accommodations at that intersection for
uh the public to access that walkway and separate the the traffic of vehicular traffic to both the existing recreational fields and the development from the pedestrians that may be accessing it otherwise. Right? I mean, you know, that sidewalk
um is on the lot one. I mean, it's not limited to the residents of this community. It can be used by anybody to come in to get to the playground to the uh field there at catch road. Right. So that would be available for anybody.
Right. And that improvement as the existing conditions being that the access to the driveway to the recreational fields does not include separate sidewalk access. So that access is currently down the driveway. That is correct. Or you know in the
grass adjacent to the adjacent to that driveway. So, we are providing uh you know a general improvement um for pedestrian accessibility into that property. Okay. Um with regard
to the stormwater management um you indicated it's a major development um meeting both the standards for the green in infrastructure storm water rules but we al also referenced the six design storms of the current and 20 year
2100. So just for the clarity um we were also then speaking to the latest amended 2023 inland flood protection rules. Yes, we are. Um, and as a entirely new construction of
development, um, I would find that you're also going to be consistent in your current stormwater approach with the anticipation of the late 2025 to 2026 title flood rules that they may uh, amend the major development definition.
Did you find that? Uh, we believe so. Um uh I believe today the D introduced a uh a notice of substantial change to those rules. Um
the precipitation uh rates that are in the 2023 rules have not changed. Um and uh um in so the impacts of the pending rules should not
have really any impact on the storm water for this site. Um you know at least in this area they're not. No, I I I would agree in both uh both the quantitative and qualitative assessment of of the types of improvements that
have been proposed, how they're distributed through the site. Um and you with that for the board's understanding on a preliminary approval. Um we reviewed the content of that storm water system and that design uh find it substantially in conformance and at this
time it's the threshold of our endorsement of the storm water system as proposed for preliminary approvals uh at a later date when they seek final approvals. We'll be addressing some of the um ins and outs of the specifics of operations and maintenance manuals,
other requires requirements for Drecordings, mutual reciprocal easements with municipality for access etc. Um but find that content of the design, the extent of details and design is sufficient for preliminary.
Um and the uh lighting at the entrance as we were discussing um in the lighting plan there's average intensity of lighting 1.1 foot candles throughout parking areas and a maximum of 4.8 a um find
that to be consistent with most most parking areas and appropriate. As we look at the driveway, existing driveway intersection to Catch Road, the the light you mentioned was for the purpose of illuminating the driveway for both
wayfinding to restrict uh vehicles from U-turns in in neighboring neighborhoods as well as then for um visibility of the potential conflict with the the vehicles in now and and pedestrians on the street. That's correct. We we like to illuminate
the intersections where people need to make decisions as to approaching vehicles and so on. So that's why we we provided a light in that location and and the intensity of the light in that area is uh consistent with the intensity of lighting for parking areas
and driveways access to those type of That is correct. Thank you. Um and that is all I have for now. Thank you. Uh, can I go to our planner first and Mr. Warner last? Yeah, sure. Um, thank you. Um, I have a couple a couple
of questions. One, um, will the ground sign be lighted? Um, ground sign. Okay. So, it's it's I I can't think of
the correct term. the it'll be kind of the the lighting will be behind the letter. So it will be internally illuminated. No, it's not internally illuminated. Channel lighting. Like channel lighting. Channel lighting. Okay. So um Okay. Um
so it'll be a soft glow um on the uh that'll illuminate the letters from behind. Okay. Um the second question I had is would you be amanable to a fence adjacent to
uh your eastern boundary with lot 4 where there's a single family residential home currently. That would be in the area to the east of our fire retention basin. Yeah.
Yeah, we're fine with that. Okay. Um can you talk a little bit about what the topography is um between the you know the catch road viewpoint and then building one the threetory building
furthest from catch road with the grade differences. So, the intersection of Ketch Road and the existing driveway is at elevation 596. Um the, as I said, the driveway slopes
down um to where our proposed driveway comes in at approximately elevation 582. So, it drops about 14 ft from Catch Road to there. Um, from that point, um, the
road that goes between buildings two and three is relatively flat. At the intersection where or where the driveway turns to go towards building one, we're at elevation 584.
Um, the parking area um in front of building one is between 589 and 590. So even there it is se six to seven feet lower than catch
road. It is also um probably well over 600 ft from catch road um you know from the housing authority
along that property line. So it's probably more than you got the parking lot. It's probably 700 feet from Catch Road to building one. Hold on a second. Um, now you're talking
about um, you know, the there's no sidewalk currently along Catch Road sort of further north of your project. It doesn't show on on the on this aerial. Um, but
would it would it be helpful if you just went up to the screen and pointed it out for for folks? So, the the sidewalk ends where this driveway have that loop in the housing. The sidewalk ends there.
So from that point out to handover Avenue which is down here there is no sidewalk today. So what I was curious about is if you are going to be approaching Morris Muse about an emergency
entrance or even the county remaining just about ready on on the remaining land. Is there a potential to get a more direct pedestrian route from the project to handover without having to go out to
catch road? Um, not not really. No, you know, there are no sidewalks on Hannah Avenue. So, um, at least in in this vicinity. um you
know the county and they've required me to do it on other projects. Even if there's no sidewalk, you have to provide a landing pad and that's all that you have on the four corners of Anover
Avenue. So we have a substantial sidewalk on catch road. Um the other point is if somebody you know there is sidewalk on Ketro going south for quite a distance. Um it doesn't today quite
reach Lake Road. Um but there are sidewalks and they flip-flop between the west side and east side down catch road. So you know it's a path that somebody can use. They want to get some exercise.
Um, and so we've had some preliminary discussions about it. Right now, I mean, that's an offtrack would be an offtrack improvement to go from where it ends at the housing authority out to handover
Avenue. Um, you know, but that's something that we could discuss. The reason I say I mean I personally, if I lived here, I would cut through Morris Muse, do you know? I mean, I just just because it it seems like that would be the most direct route. So, I was just
curious if there was any potential to formalize that. Um, but that's that's just it's something we can, you know, ask. I I you know, it's something to consider.
All right. That's that's it. Those are my only questions. So, you will consider that? It's it's not for us to say. I mean it's up to the housing authority. Well, you will ask them. We have to ask about emergency. Thank you. That's all. Just a couple if I may, Mr. Chairman.
The the the uh Mr. Keller, based upon your engineering testimony, visav the emergency access. Is it your professional opinion as a professional planner that that
emergency access is sufficient to satisfy the applicant's obligation under section 36 of the MLUL uh to deviate per section 35 of the MLUL from the requirement of having
direct street frontage? Well, I I think that putting aside the emergency access connection between this proposed project and the housing authority property, it's not necessary to satisfy
the section 36 requirement for uh emergency services access from a public street. I think that is more than sufficiently provided and is consistent with RSIS using the existing driveway
and the internal circulation for our site provides the sufficiency required under 36. Thank thank you for clarifying that. So, so the existing driveway and your testimony relevant to same is sufficient in and of itself to constitute the
deviation from section 35 under the municipal land use law. Uh but I take it the emergency access uh visa v Mars use or otherwise if it's obtained would all the more satisfy that obligation perhaps
it it certainly would provide an option. It provides an alternative. Is it necessary? I don't believe it is necessary, but it would be a benefit to have that. Understood. The the elevation.
Can you tell us what the elevation is at the location of building three? If I recall correctly, that's the furthest. I'm sorry, build I don't recall correctly. Building one. Uh that's the furthest from Catch Road and that's the three-story building.
That is correct. And what is the elevation at that location? The parking lot in front of that building ranges between 589 and 59. Okay. And that that is the postdevelopment
uh uh elevation. That is correct. At that location. Correct. So, as you testified, it is uh several feet at least six or seven feet below the elevation at Catch Road. Correct. Yeah. Catch Road and the existing
driveway. Correct. And there are a couple of existing or more than a couple of existing structures uh between Catch Road and that proposed building one. Correct. Right. You have the existing arc uh
home. You have on, you know, in arc views, you have uh the buildings, you know, three buildings, you know, along that view corridor into the site, right? And there's a single family dwelling on lot four. Correct. That is correct.
Again, could you just point to what you're referring to for for the residents? Certainly. So what I was talking about, we're talking about the elevation at uh Manor Drive and Catch Road is 596.
We have 589 590 back here. Um, so this area is six to seven feet lower than this point, but the Jew shed in there is blocked by wooded areas on the Mars Arc property by these two proposed
buildings. The more direct line in is along the southern side of the housing authority property, which you're looking past these two buildings, which I believe are three stories in
height. Um and then looking up about 700 ft to building one. I have nothing further. Thank you. Okay, we're going to ask the board members to ask questions. Mr. Barrett. Yeah. Um I have one question, Mr.
Keller. You mentioned um that there will be 75 parking spaces and it's based on a uh I guess a a one and a half. 75 are required by the redevelopment plan. We're providing 89. You're providing 89. Okay, I misunderstood you. I thought it was 75.
Okay. I have no problem. That's what's required. Thank you, Mr. Van. Order. Um just following up on that around the parking it it uh based on what you've mentioned that there will be 14 units that are
designated for special needs uh disabled individuals uh that the Arkerber County or some other agency will be countyed United Way sorry um that um so really if we and and that's completely valid
because I know that to be true that Most people in those units don't have cars. Um you're really think you're really providing upwards of two um two parking spots per unit that is likely to have a car. Um where you where
1.5 is is the requirement. Is that is that like I mean even though you're generously stating maybe some of these may maybe some of these assisted units will have people coming in to assist them in their needs etc. Okay. Um regarding those 14 units that are
going to be set aside for supportive housing. I imagine that will be one specific building or is that the idea or will it be or is that something unrelated? Unless the architect Okay, great. I'll I'll hold that then uh for that question. Um, and uh, I I
just was wondering if you spoke about the bio retention basins. If you could just um, note where those are, will they be under the parking uh, or We have two bio retention basins, one by the
clubhouse, one behind building three, but all the parking spaces are pvious pavement. Mhm. So the water will seep through the pavement into a stone bed underneath and it is tight to those two fire retention.
So you would not anticipate that this development would um I mean by law would not have any runoff additional runoff in fact it will maintain the water coming onto it with these systems that you're creating. We're reducing the rate of runoff as
required under the regul. There will be less water running off. Correct. After this. The rate. The rate. Okay. Not volume. Right. Want to clarify that. Yeah. Um and just a real quick question about the possibility of of a of a
secondary access uh going through, you know, property owned by the Morris Morris County Housing Authority. Um I I mean that would then require I imagine obviously that you would not be able to do landscaping in that space and that um
how would how do you imagine that would impact those folks that live in that housing there if you would that be um something unsightly for them to not have a landscape buffer in that space or do you think that would be not really that visible for them?
It's not that visible. It's it's the air it works out well if we can do it you know where this the driveway te's and it would be a matter of coming through there um as I indicated we it would be
grass pavers um so it really would not be visible it's not a pave is there even a possibility of um of having some kind of um a barrier that can be easily removed by by uh
locked off. I mean, it would not be access on a regular basis. Got it. That's that's very helpful. Thanks. And we we've always worked with the the fire department as to the appropriate mechanism. There's always, you know, some discussion about how best to do that,
right? I mean, you wouldn't want others to use it as a cut through with their car even or whatever. That is correct. Absolutely. Okay. Um, that that really satisfies my questions at present. Thank you. You're welcome, Chief. None. Unlimited question. Mr. Abbottz,
thank you and and thank you for that very thorough uh report. Uh just one quick question about the lighting. Um are are the fixtures going going to be dark sky compliant? Yes, that's all I have at this time. Great. Mr. Grigia,
uh just on can you point to where this light the sign is going to be? We just So it'll be right at the entrance, south side. The south side of the entrance we're proposing. Correct. Okay. And then when you're on Catch Road
and you're looking, you know, you're looking, you're walking by there and you look down, can you I know the furthest building you probably won't see, but the Can you see the clubhouse and the the other two buildings or is it blocked
by the I mean, I won't say that you won't be able to see the clubhouse at all, but I mean, there are existing trees trees right that are not being disturbed. Um there will be
uh some trees in the fire retention basin. So um you know it's the view is obscured. Okay. All right. Thank you Mr. Krillin. Thank you Mr. Chairman. I had a couple
of questions. My first question is a kind of basic question about the relationship between a preliminary site plan approval and a final site plan approval. And this may be more for Mr. Warner than for you, Mr. color. But um I was going to use an example, but I think
my example got used up by somebody else related to uh the possible ex by Miss Laney uh related to the possible extension of the sidewalk from Mars Muse up to Hanover Avenue where I think the
applicant agreed to ask um the county housing authority for permission to extend the sidewalk. Um, and so I think a condition of our approval is that the applicant ask I I believe that's what I heard. Uh but um
if if we were as an example, if we were silent on um your proposal to end the sidewalk there and then you came in with a final site plan and continued to end the sidewalk there and we said, "Oh, we
would prefer that the sidewalk go up to Hanover Avenue." Would that be something that would not be permitted for this board to do at at that time? because we had already approved the preliminary site plan. While I can answer, maybe it's best if the applicant answer or at least first.
Okay. Sure. So, between preliminary and final site plan, certain changes can be made to the preliminary site plan, so long as they're not substantial changes relating to major site plan considerations like circulation and storm water and the
general layout of what we're proposing today. So it's it's really a matter of putting pen to paper and seeing what those changes are. There's nothing that prevents us from seeking an amended preliminary and final at the same time. So if there are changes that are
generated through um not just this board and conditions of this board but also outside agencies. So, for example, if we get comments from the water department and it somehow requires us to bring water into the site a different way for some reason, which we are not anticipating, but if our buildings had
to rotate or shift or flip-flop, those sorts of details could be reflected in an amended site plan and final site plan at the same time simultaneously that this board could hear. So, we could consider those options and and as we had testified, we're certainly willing to
ask um the housing authority if we can have access to and through their site. Um we obviously can't control whether or not they grant permission for us to do that, but we can certainly ask and um if there are any improvements even related to a secondary access, for example, too,
that require changes to this plan to allow for those things to happen. Um, we can either continue to seek final site plan because they're not substantial changes which is a determination that this board makes or we can seek amended preliminary and final site plan
simultaneously. Just a point on the sidewalk this there were two things. One was a connection for pedestrians from this site to the housing authority which was one as Madiac indicated we'll ask. The
second is the extension of the sidewalk along Catch Road. Oh, okay. I missed the distinction. That um is something that, you know, it's off track. That is not something that is this applicant's responsibility. We're willing to
discuss that with the township, but that really is a township project, correct? Um for connectivity, not only for this project, but for everything else. Okay. Well, I' I'd like to continue. Mr. Was
while you're on our subject of the sidewalk. Yeah. Um I could state as as we mentioned um during the public hearings on the redevelopment plan, there have been considerations and and investigations preliminarily into extensions of
sidewalk through the catch road system um to create better connectivity by the township. So, um, would the applicant be receptive to working with the township on, uh, improving that connectivity in
and out of the property at the driveway and into into your facility along with timeship improvements? Yes. Anything else, Mr. Cole? Yes, I do have more, but I think Mr. Well, I was just going to confirm uh
that from a legal perspective, Miss Masiaak is correct. Uh and I would add that in my experience a few decades now at least. Uh the uh amended approvals, preliminary approvals together with final approvals are more the rule than
the exception. You see those most of the time. uh as long as final match is preliminary uh then then uh uh we'll have the some flexibility perhaps to she indicated maybe we wouldn't be precluded from
getting something just because it wasn't in the preliminary approval uh if subsequently we could get it such as sidewalk extensions. Uh no prohibition. we would simply get an amended approval together with the final amended preliminary approval together with the
final. Uh fairly common. Let me use my other example then because it's really an architectural example and it has to do with the rear facades of the buildings uh particularly building three which um the rear facade of which faces catch road I believe. The front
faces building two. Is that correct? Yes. So, um, folks who are on Catch Road or on the first couple of properties on Manor Drive and are looking over that way, they're going to see the rear of
building two. Exactly how much of that they'll see. It's a bit unclear to me, but it seems like most of the trees that are that would be in the way now are going to be not there anymore. So, um, I thought that the look of that
facade was not ideal and really wasn't consistent with Mars Township's design standards and possibly not with the redevelopment plan design standards either. Um, it's just a little
bit too flat, too monotonous, uh, too dull. So, if we were to approve the preliminary plan as submitted tonight, would we be barred from making an
objection later on? Would we uh we should wait perhaps? Uh okay, I should wait and talk to speak about this later. Well, I suspect the architect is going to be the next witness. That might be most appropriate. Okay. at that time.
I have one more very minor question which is can you explain what a hot box is? That's something to do with the water supply. It's a it's a um above ground u enclosure
that uh in takes what used to be put in vaults below the ground. backflow preventers, uh, check valves, all kinds of things for the water system. It is now put above ground. We call it a hot box because that enclosure is heated so
that it doesn't freeze because we now have pipes that are above the ground surface. That's why it's a hot box. Yeah. Needs electricity to keep it warm. Yes.
Okay. All right. almost all the water companies are requiring it these days. Thank you. Can I just one thing? Can would you um agree to landscape it and and or paint it to minimize neutral earth tone? A neutral earth tone to minimize
We've done this before. Uh to to minimize its its appearance. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Benois. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, it seems to me is it would it be possible in terms of emergency access to a third
party to go from in front of building one into the nursing home. Is that what it is? Rather than between buildings two and three because if we have a fire truck all the way back then they have
the same problem of doing a K turn to get out. The grades don't work. The grades are that that far off. We we have a retaining wall along the parking lot next to building one right there. There's a retaining wall that is
uh that happens to be the tallest wall that we have on the site. I said it range from 2 and 1/2 to five almost six feet. That's where we have a 6ft high wall. So the grades do not work there. They work very nicely at the end of the
driveway between buildings two and three. How about access right out to Handover from there? That would be terrible. Why might that be terrible? Would only be for the emergency room.
Wouldn't be for folks. We're we're letting Mr. Benois ask his question. Everyone in the public will have an opportunity in a few minutes. I mean, the grades don't work. You're coming out to a fourlane county highway
with uh a very steep grade as you come down from the fire academy to catch road. Um you have the solar uh panels there. Um, it's a lot of disturbance. It's a lot of distance.
Um, it is not feasible. It's our money. Well, I'm just thinking that for emergency vehicles. How often would it be used? Hardly ever. Hopefully. So, it's an option. Hey, Mr. Beno, I think they've given
their answer and we may not like the answer, but that is the answer. It's the grades don't work. With all due respect, okay. Um, looking at the topography from building two down to ARC,
it looks to me like it would go down into ARC property. There's manholes on both sides, but I just thought just it looks to me like it might go actually into their property because the slope goes down. What goes into their property? I'm not
following you. Storm water. I'm sorry. Storm water. Yes. Thank you. Um I missed I missed that. I didn't I didn't mention that. Yes. What what we have done behind building three is and it's hard it's impossible
to see on here. There's a swale back here. Um the building itself, the roadways. Um, I have a hard time seeing what I'm saying. You know, all of this is piped into the into the basin, but there is a swale
along here. Um the park site drains all to the low point in their parking lot is uh off the northwest corner of their building which is where that we're grant we're going to grant an ement for an
existing storm sewer that comes across what is now their property and it goes into the housing authority property. We're connecting from this basin into this existing structure. So this will hold
water, will retain water and meter it out during the storm and tie into this pipe which goes into the housing part. Okay, I see. Thank you. So it there are two storm basins between those properties, but there's also a channel,
right? We have a swale here. We have an inlet here which then goes into this basin. Okay. Um, this basin is piped over into here. The buildings have roof drain collection systems. So, it's not just dumping out onto the ground. It's
actually being piped into the SAR collection system which goes into the uh the bio retention bases. All right, I saw that. Okay, great. And then the pvious cover, the pvious pavement
pavement. So it goes into a stone base and also goes into the retention basins we have. So that's not groundwater recharge in itself. Some of it will be some of it will be. Yeah. Some will happen in the fire retention basin. Some will happen in perious pavement depends.
Oh okay. Soils but we have uh there's outlet structures. Um there'll be grates on top, but they will have a perforated pipe that extends into the
stone bed underneath which will then convey it into a solid storm sewer pipe which will then convey to the to the basin. Okay. It's combination sort of. All right. Thank you. That's what the the rules make us do. We
we have a series of different tools BMPs that we use to to meet the regulations. Makes sense. Makes sense. Okay. Um I have a question on the wetlands. Yes. It looks to me like the corner of
I corner of building two, the southwest corner sits in the right at the edge right at the edge of the um not at the edge of the wetland itself. It's within the transition area. That's
one of the areas where we're going to average. We're going to reduce the transition area in that location and increase it um to off the northwestern corner of the Can you can you point to that on the map?
So, we're going to reduce it here and we're going to increase it in here. Okay. The grading plan shows that corner at 583 which is where Yes. the beginning of the
583 right there right at the southwest corner of building two. So that's the transition area correct? So under unusual weather like we've been talking about a little bit does the
transition area fill up with water? No. In this in this case the u the topography all all of this area slopes towards the existing parking lot right so it's just that the soils
and therefore the plant material exhibits wetland characteristics there may be points at which there is some surface water in there but that will not occur after the construction because we're going to remove those soils,
regrade it, um provide the appropriate materials, stone materials underneath the foundation of the building to support the building and it'll all drain off. Um is the building on on um slab?
Yeah, it's a slab on grade. It's a slab on grade. The architect will talk. Okay. Well, no, but it's related to this. Um, you know, out of fear that it might get wet. Um, okay. Well, basically what you're saying is that it's not going to get wet.
It's not. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Um, are you good, Mr. Benois? So, you mentioned that the roofs go into the storm. Yes. Water into the pond. I think that's
everything I had. Um, electrical meters as architect. All right. Yes. Okay. I I think I'm I'm going to ask everyone's indulgence here. I It seems like there's a lot of questions that also pertain to the architect and and I made a mistake. We should have the
architect next and then we'll continue to ask questions. You will get your turn. You'll get your turn to ask both both. Are you Are you not staying? Are you going to stay till the end of the hearing? No, I don't know. Well, that's what we'd like to do. I
appreciate everyone's indulgence. So, we're going to ask the architect to come up next. And just for clarification, Mr. Chairman, if I may, the uh members of the public will have an opportunity to ask questions of either Mr. Keller or uh the Mr. Eng.
Any or all. I think it's just going to be easier if they both are allowed to talk. Right now, we're we're sequestering questions because the architect hasn't given his testimony. So, this way if there's a question that falls between the two, both can answer the question. Thank you, Mr.
Mr. Keller's not going anywhere. 12 people left the room. Yes. Thank you. Ma'am, it's a quasi judicial proceeding. Please the quorum, please. Thank you. It's a two-way street. The quorum.
Thank you, Mr. Warner. I I think we're okay. Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Respects a one a two-way street. Okay. Would uh you'd like to have your architect give us his qualifications? Yes, we're actually going to qualify two
of our architects. They're going to each to in whole the project. So, Jack, you want to go first? You want to ask questions? You want? Um, yes. if you can please provide your educational background and your experience presenting
and start with your name and business address, please. Thank you. My name My name is John. You're going to need to get closer to the microphone, sir. Sure. My name is John C. In Englaze, I Ning Gle S. My business address is 632 Palton Avenue in Cedar Grove. I am a
principal in the firm of Inglaze Architecture and Engineering. Um, I have a bachelor of architecture degree from uh the New Jersey School of Architecture, a bachelor of science in civil engineering from NJIT, essentially the same institution, and a master of
science and structural engineering from the same institution. That's 1980, 1983, and 2005. I have a I'm a registered architect in the state of New Jersey and have been since 1983 and a licensed professional engineer in the state of
New Jersey and have been since 1984 and both licenses are current and in good standing. Have you testified before planning boards before, sir? Yes. You're acceptable. Thank you. Thank you. Sherry Applegate um also in
Glaz Architecture and Engineering address 632 Pmpton A, Cedar Grove, New Jersey. I have a bachelor's of architecture from NGIT 2013. A bachelor's of science of
civil engineering from NGIT also 2013 and a masterers of science of civil engineering with a concentration in structures also from NGIT 2016. I am a licensed architect in the state of New Jersey and I am also a licensed professional engineer in the state of
New Jersey. Both licenses are current. Have you Have you uh testified before planning boards before? I have not. Okay, we'll accept you. Thank you. Thank you. Good luck. Since tonight will be your
first night. Could have picked an easier application. Sure. Yeah. So, we're going to start the architectural presentation with um rendered elevations. So, Miss Applegate, if you can please
a second to load um describe for the board what they're looking at. And Mr. Warner, for the record, this will be exhibit A4. And these are colored arch or 3D rendered um elevations of building one
and building three. The title of residence is at Morris Woods proposed 50UN affordable multifamily development. Oh god. And it is dated zoom in
um July 7th, 2025. Thank you. So here we have the rendered 3D views of building one. You can see the proposed materiality of stone veneer and trim shown in
chardonnay as well as siding shown in white castle stone and pacific blue. The proposed um siding will be vinyl and the roofing material will be GAF timberline architectural shingles in Appalachian
sky. In building one, we can see the uh turned gables and threetory height mentioned. And as we scroll down to building three,
you can see the proposed two-story building and similar materiality proposed here. And the original or I'm sorry the first rendering that was shown of building one
is this is the again to confirm the three-story building that's to the rear the most rear portion of the property. Correct. Correct. And in regard to the rear of building three will we will also work with the planning consultant to make the rear of
building three more consistent with the front proposed design. Can you just please describe for the board the unit mixes that are in each of these buildings? Yes. So, in the three buildings, building one will have three
one-bedroom units, 15 two-bedroom units, and six three-bedroom units for a total of 24. Building two will have three one-bedroom units, six two-bedroom units, and three three-bedroom units for a total of 12.
And building three will have four one-bedroom units, six two-bedroom units, and four three-bedroom units for a total of 14 for the total of 50 for the project. There will al this will also be inclusive of 14 supportive
housing units, which will be evenly distributed throughout all buildings. And Miss Applegate, if we can now turn to the materials that were submitted to the board, if you can just walk us through and we'll bring this up on the screen, the general floor plans of each
of the buildings. So, if you can just as we're scrolling through this confirm that these are the materials that were submitted to the board. Correct. Correct. There's no changes from what was submitted. Correct. Correct. Okay. And then as we walk through, if you can just describe what building it is and which floor we're looking at so
we can understand the general layout of the building and then of the units. So we'll start with building one. You can you can take the microphone and stand up there and point. Okay.
There's also another microphone. It's okay. She's got it. Test. Yes. No. Now you got it. Okay. Now you have a choice. So in building one, this is our threetory building. There are four main
staircs on all three stories. Um so in general we have the uh three-bedroom units on the ends of this building and it is relatively consistent
from the first floor plan to the second and third floor plans above. And in building two, we have a slight difference of access where we have um access to ground floor units directly
from the sidewalk and we have raised stoops to provide access to the floors above. So, Miss Applegate, each of the units in the twostory buildings has its own access. Correct.
Correct. And in the three-story building, you had pointed out those four access points for the entire building. Correct. Correct. Can you describe for us the general layout of a three-bedroom unit, a one-bedroom unit, and a two-bedroom
unit? Yes, the general layout of three-bedroom unit. You'll enter into a living space, the um dining area, kitchenet kitchen area, as well as the living room.
And towards the uh the center of the unit is the uh bathroom and utility spaces. And as you work your way back to towards the rear of the unit, you have uh your three bedrooms as well as one
bathroom off of bedroom one. In one bedroom, it's similar where you're entering into the living and dining room space. As you work your way back through the unit, you're working your way through the kitchen and bathroom.
And in the rear where the onebedroom is, you have uh utility spaces as well as a walk-in closet. And then for the twobedroom, it's also a similar approach where you're entering in through living and dining, working your way through the kitchen. And then a
centrallylo bathroom and utilities. And the two bedrooms are located in the rear of the building. And on these plans, we're depicting a washer and dryer. We are going to have the connections for washers and dryers in all of the units. Correct. Yes. And
um we'll get there, but we also have a laundry room within the community space as well. Correct. Can you describe the purpose of having that separate laundry room and how the washer and dryers work in the units? Yes. So,
uh tenants will have the opportunity to rent the washer and dryer within the units and the community building will provide um community laundry which can be used in the event of somebody's
in-unit system not working or if they have a larger um larger capacity items for the uh community laundry facility. Sure. That should be the next after building three
zoomed out here. Okay. So, the community building will have a large gathering space. It will have um management space and within that management space it will include an office to support the
um the support the supportive housing units. Yes. Uh it would al will also have um the community laundry services and a warming kitchen as well as a maintenance space and a small gathering area.
And the clubhouse is proposed to be used by the residents and their guests only. Correct. Correct. Yeah. A couple of things. Yeah, sure. Okay. So, um, one thing to keep in mind is we have we have three buildings. Do you think
better? Sorry. So, we have three buildings. Uh we have a three-story walk up and then we have the two twostory buildings which all have individual entrances with ground floor units and second floor units. Um, so from an accessibility uh
perspective, all of the ground floor units in all three buildings are adaptable as a minimum, but the 14 uh uh special needs units will be accessible from the beginning um for those residents. and
that and just to give you an idea, I believe there's 22 groundf flooror units between the three buildings, 14 of which will be fully accessible from the beginning and the rest as as adaptable and that's in compliance with New Jerseyy's um uh uh accessibility
requirements in the international building code. And Mr. Englace, we heard a comment during Mr. Keller's testimony, the supportive housing units are intended to be dispersed throughout the community. Correct. That is correct. It's in intentionally those units are spread between all three
buildings. Uh and and in all of our projects that have special needs, there is a a a a serious disinterest from lumping them together as a as a separate floor or a separate section of a building, but integrating them throughout the community.
Thank you. Say that again. Uh I think we're good and ready for questions. Yeah. Okay. Uh but I just to reiterate what I think Sher said previously um we didn't go through the black and white elevations but the backs are simpler
than the fronts in the submitted uh drawings and as a condition of preliminary approval and obviously something you'll look at as final approval. We'll be looking at the backs of the buildings especially the back of building three which is the one that's
most visible from the public road. So, that's all we have for direct testimony. Great. We're going to same order. And I just want to let everyone know in the public that we will be here for all the questions. You'll be uh able to question both witnesses on all four of the
disciplines they discussed tonight. And then we'll be inviting you back for comments uh etc. So, we're going to start with uh engineer. I have no comments and questions. So, I'll defer. We'll go to our planner.
No, I don't really have any additional questions. I'll yield. I know probably some of the board members. Then we'll go to Mr. Warner, our board attorney. I'll yield as well. Okay, we'll start Mr. Barrett. Questions for the architects. I I don't know if this is appropriate for the architect. I don't think I
picked up on the answer that this question I have previously, so maybe you can help me with it. Are all the units, the 50 units intended to be um rental units or will some of these be ownership all rental?
Okay. And um in terms of them being rental units, will there be any prohibition in terms of being able to be subleted um by the tenant? I don't I I would defer to the the client here or the
attorney on this one. Mr. Warner, can Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry. Subleting is not permitted. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Van. Order. I just had a question. Um, you know,
you've got a lot of three-bedroom units and quite a few two-bedroom units. I imagine you anticipate having families in those units. And um it seems a little light on um storage in at least my estimation of seeing how my family uses
space. Uh I'm wondering, you know, what plans, if any, you have for people's outdoor toys and things of that nature, uh where where will folks uh have an opportunity for their kids to have their bikes covered up in the
wintertime? And is that something you envision providing for the quality of life of your future residents? That's a that's a a good question. Um, but I don't as of right now I don't think we have provision for
extra unit storage. So anything outdoor outside of your of your unit. So you don't I know there was an anticipate having families with children's with ride- on toys and bikes and things that might be difficult to carry up to a second floor.
Um is has there been any thought in just in that quality of life uh matter because I see this as an issue in a lot of affordable housing that does not have that in their design and I and I think that's unfortunate uh and a burden for those families. It's a little bit
difficult in a townhouse style uh building. If this were a mid-rise with a ground floor with a lot more community space and common sort of management space, you can carve out a room for indoor bike storage, um indoor
uh separated tenants, separated tenants storage, but we're seeing people go away from that as well. Um, so it's something we can consider. I don't know where we would put it. Um, quite honestly, um,
but your point is well taken. Thank you, Chief. None. No questions at this time, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Rabbitz. Yes. Thank you for your explanations. Just one quick question. These units are all electric
as of right now. That's the that is the plan. This would be high efficiency heat pumps and electric water heaters and electric stoves. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Grigglia. No questions at this time. Mr. Quillin,
I wanted to thank you for agreeing to work with our planner to uh perhaps change the rear facads of the buildings, especially building three. Um, so I believe that's a condition of our approval. Um, and I wanted to ask you about the color
choices. What made you pick the particular choices? If you can describe um what you were going for with the I think three different colors. There'd been a little bit of back and forth on this between us and the and the planner in the drafting of the
redevelopment plan. So, there's been a couple of different versions of this elevation with with um we're we're always trying to get at least a couple of colors in the siding. Um I I don't I don't particularly want to see every
slot of a townhouse be a completely different design because I think that's going overboard. But at the same time, you want to have enough of a break in the color to articulate the individual units um from each other. Um, so a little bit of back and forth between the
blue and this is this is really hard to see in this light, but it's really a gray and a and a and a slate blue. A light gray and a slate blue and a white u between them. The white is more of an accent. The the the light gray and the
blue are the A and B colors here. Um so um personal preference with some input from others. is the best answer. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I have no other questions. Mr. Benois,
thank you. Um, I lost my spot. I lost my spot. Um, are you familiar with the township ordinance 57-87-1 building design guidelines?
We we did look at that. Yes, you looked at it. Yes. Did you in the in the preliminary plans that were provided in drafting of the redevelopment plan? I believe that was referenced in one of their in one of the
comments terms of in terms of facade design. Yes. And Mr. and Glace, the redevelopment plan contains its own design standards that supersede the underlying ordinance. Correct. That is that is correct. I think they have generally the same the same goals. But yes,
Miss Lehaney, is that true? Not exactly. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. it it I understand um what the attorney is saying and that is true that this this redevelopment plan does supersede but I think uh in the interest of the design
guidelines this is much fairer than you know anything that's not identified in this plan reverts back to the ordinance so I think that to the extent that there are aspects of the design guidelines in our ordinance that are not addressed in the redevelopment plan those still
should be looked because there are a lot of items in the design guidelines in the ordinance that I don't see here. And um you know, George's comment is right.
You know, the the design guidelines talk about a minimum of three foot difference in the facial plane of the units. You do have in the front, I don't know whether it's three feet, but the
ordinance is pretty clear that the design should wrap around the entire building. You can't have the front that says one thing and then the back is just flat. So I would like to see the design
um wrapped around so that from wherever you see the the building you see the same concept and one of the things I'm really afraid of is the windows. The ordinance clearly clearly states that the intent is to
have enough depth of window to cast shadows at least two inches between the glazing and the exterior wall. So that's actually very easy to achieve here. Is it on this? Yeah. Yeah. Because these are going to
be 2x6 walls with exterior 2x6 walls. Okay, great. Thank you. I'm glad to hear that. Um it's hard to tell in design. It's hard to tell in a picture. Sure. Um, in fact, it doesn't look that way actually on on on the end units. Um,
yeah, I think that's the quality of the rendering more than anything else, I think. So, that's something we've got to work on. But, but in terms of construction, there are a lot of what I would This is what I think would be easier. if you could
address the items in the ordinance that comport that that pertain to this type of housing and address how you're complying with it. We don't have to go through each one. Um the the the
porticos over the doors, the numbers of steps leading up to doors. Um I don't understand the white panels and the vertical siding. It's very busy. All that stuff is very busy. And I think the ordinance
talks about having having simplicity of design. I think I think three-foot steps are very busy myself. But if that's a if that's a hard line, I lived in Jersey City and there were about 15 steps to my building and it was a beautiful building. So
things are relative and and there's a reason the portico should be wider. There's a reason the ordinance says what it says. And so I think it would be helpful if if you did a design report where you looked at the ordinance in relation to your design
and how your design comports to it or does not comport to it and why. Um I understand these you know if you have to have a a a first level entrance to suit a wheelchair then there's a reason to have a first
level door without steps. So, there's an example of where where um where you can address the item in the ordinance and say, "We're doing it this way for this reason." Um I'm particularly concerned about the vinyl. The ordinance does not identify vinyl as
a preferred material. Could you use AAC or Hardy Board or could you look at another material? And I'm I'm just going to step in with one point, which is that this is a 100% affordable product. I'm asking the question. Okay. Okay. That's fine. That's fine. Because vinyl could at least be
textured. Is this textured? The vinyl? No, not not the board on the board and batten vinyl temp typically is not. It's smooth. You can get the horizontal siding textured, but generally not the vertical. You mean the vertical siding? Yeah.
Can you get rid of it? I mean, to me, it's sort of its own look, too. So, well, I know, but I know it becomes very busy if you have this and you have this and you have white panels in the middle. It becomes very confusing looking at and I don't look at
any pretty house anywhere in the township outside the township where they have a combination of vertical siding, horizontal siding, panels, you know, it's it's too busy in my view. So, if you could look at that, I I understand and I I certainly have no
problem with doing what you suggest, which is going through the going through those design guidelines, preparing a uh a report, addressing each one, and why we did what we did or why we changed what we did. That's a perfectly reasonable.
I appreciate that. That would be really helpful. Thank you. Anything else, Mr. Benois? No, that's it. Great. Okay, we're going to open up questions now from the public of both
witnesses. Actually, all three witnesses. So, we're going to ask you to come up to the microphone. Please state your name and address. I'm sorry. We're going to go on this side. This microphone right here to my right
or to your left. Thank you. So, it's your give us your name and address and then you can ask your questions. Brian, 51 Catch Road, Morris Township. I would just like to know what um traffic measures are going to be placed at the
intersection of the access road and catch road. For example, a stop sign, a flashing yellow light, or a conventional traffic light. How is that traffic going to be controlled? So, those questions would go to Mr. Keller who was gonna we we put him down so this way both both people could ask
ask questions. So, I appreciate your your question. Mr. Keller, I'm going to let you answer. There'd be a stop sign on the existing driveway and what studies were done to prove that that would be a sufficient sufficient for safety and traffic uh flow?
That's a standard practice. This driveway like Manor Drive does not meet the warrants for traffic signal. So the basic traffic control device is a stop sign. Okay. Thank you. Hi. Uh Richard Bongo, 19 Bell Drive, uh
Mars Township. Uh and my apologies. I've been traveling for the last three weeks, so I have not been uh just heard about this recently. Uh c can somebody explain to me how the economics of this work? Who the shareholders are of the LLC? Um this is all very foreign to me that uh
we're talking about adding things to the property, deleting things. Who's paying for all this? I don't understand where that comes from. So Mr. Warner, do we have a member of the applicant that could answer that question briefly? May maybe applicants council can represent uh who represents the LLC can
represent who uh answer that question. Sure. And and if there are is still an outstanding question, we do have a representative of the applicant. Um so if my response is does not fully answer your question, please let us know. It all happened
and so yeah, we were all Is there is there a way to get the uh Zoom call muted, please? Thank you. I'm sorry. Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, so in response to your question, the applicant
who is the designated redeveloper of the property has entered into an affordable housing agreement with the township which is governed entirely by the township committee um and not this particular board. The applicant and slredeveloper is seeking tax credits um
through the New Jersey um housing and mortgage mortgage financing authority HMFA um for this project in this next round. our deadline is actually September 2nd to file for that. So, um the applicant in combination with um up to a particular
amount of township trust fund dollars if they are necessary to fill a gap in that funding based on that affordable housing agreement are going to be contributed to paying for this project. So, this is not something that's fully funded by the municipality. the applicant um as the redeveloper of the property is handling
if possible all but most of the cost through the tax credits and other funding sources. Gotcha. And what type of arrangement is that? What type of I mean are they getting a 10% return or how does that work? So there are particular programs that the HMFA has for different tax credits
for projects like this. There's a 4% tax credit and a 9% tax credit. Um, so we are filing for the 9% tax credits through the state funding through the HMFA. Okay. And just uh on a greater front, there seems to be 107 acres behind this.
What is the intention for that? I mean, is this the 50 units, is that going to fulfill Mars Township's obligation for how long? And I mean, is there are we looking at the other 107 acres as more affordable housing if we need it? With the chair's permission, I think I
could answer that. Uh this was a particular settlement of a particular litigation relative to our third round obligation. It specifically calls for 50 100% affordable units at this site. Uh so no one as far as I know is contemplating anything beyond that
acreage or any other units. Uh and in fact our fourth round obligation uh which we just submitted a housing element fair share plan for uh does not in any way shape or form uh come near Catch Road or this county uh land. Uh but fortunately we were able to get the
county to in essence donate this land so that we didn't have to as a township come up with the acreage andor uh uh uh come up with hundreds of thousands if not more dollars in lie thereof. Uh it's a significant contribution the land is
to making the project viable and ensuring it's a 100% affordable project. So that's 50 units, not 250 units. Okay. So round four, how many units are we going have to add to round four and how many rounds will there be? Uh we're we're satisfied for round four
takes us to 2035. Okay. Uh I can't predict what the fifth round will be if and when it comes although uh if and when it comes currently under the current legislation that would be July 1, 2035. I'll see you then. Okay. Thank you guys for your service.
Thank you. Next Susan McManis 91 Ketra Morristown. My first question is for Mr. Anglacius. You're putting in supportive care units. They're all electric. Is there any plan for generators? Most of these people with supportive care services require
electric wheelchairs, oxygen, other durable medical equipment that is electric supplied. And I will tell you that that area has a significant number of power outages. Fair question will be you use the mic, Mr. Hey, Mike.
In the in the next in the next phase here, we will be looking at the the actual design of the building. And if um if the two uh if if if the two um
special needs sponsors here feel that that is a ne a necessity, we can work on that because we you know we have done that before. I don't know if it's I don't know if it's a need here, but there's certainly the opportunity to do it if we needed it. Because then the second question to that
is where would you put those generators? Oh, if if it were just for those uh 14 units, there'd probably be a small one associated with each building off to the side or in the back. Yeah. My other question is a hot bucket question that everybody's going to want to know the answer to.
You got this land from the county. Everybody doesn't want the access out on catch road. So did you think about going back to the county and asking for access not through Mars Muse but up to between building one and the kennels to come out on Mars View
Street where they would then have access to the light on West Hover Avenue. So that's I guess a question for Mr. Keller. Yep. because I'm a little tired of hearing that. Well, it'll cost us more. Tough. I'm sorry, ma'am. We We have This is
questions only. I'll swear you in for public comment so it has the weight of testimony. We wouldn't want it not to have the weight of testimony just like their testimony. Okay. So, I just want to refer to the catch road redevelopment plan
which is adopted by the township. Uh on page 12 it states access vehicular access to the public street system shall be provided via driveway or street connection to catch road through existing block 1901 lot one on lands
that are now part of catch road field. So we have not investigated any other alternative access. This was the access that was set forth in the redevelopment plan. It's appropriate and reasonable
for use for these 50 units. Can you I think you've gotten your answer. Do you have another question? No, I'll let it go for now. Thank you. Next. Oh, hi. Uh, William Joel, 32 Ventosa.
Uh, my question is to Mr. Keller is regarding the emergency access plan. Can we put that up? Put up the site plan. Exhibit A2. Okay. So, I'm assuming if if someone
parks incorrectly here in either of these spaces that possibly a fire truck could not get in there. Is that true? the parking. Say if someone parked like out here, another one parked here, would firet
truck be able to still get in there? That that the parking spaces that are laid out on this property do and they're being occupied by automobiles do not block the maneuverability of a fire truck.
I don't know. Someone parks out here a little bit. Someone's here. I think a fire truck. You park in a parking space. You do not park in a drive aisle. Is there a line at the end of the spot? I'm sorry. It's a We have one question. I'm just I mean it's a
it's a reasonable question. He But he's answered it incorrectly. But sir, that could that could happen on any street. It doesn't have to be inside this community. I live in a town home community. If two people park on both sides of the street, firet trucks going to have a tough time getting down the street. Call the police and have a tow
away. Obvious if someone incorrectly pour I mean just like I'm talking like two or four feet. No working. Sir, what's your next question? Oh, it was a good question. It was answered. What's your next question? Okay. Um the next question is the
signage location. Does it actually have to be on Catch Road? Could it be located down as you enter into the complex? The the point of the sign out at catch road is to identify that this is the location of
this community. Well, it's appropriate, if I might, I'd like to finish my thought. It's appropriate for to identify people on the public street as to where they should enter
this community. So, isn't the address 85 catch road? Couldn't you just put numbers? We have identified the community as residences at Morris Woods. That's our proposal. Okay. And
on the architecture, the roof, what is the roof pitch on the Let's go back to Can we bring up one of the renderings, please? Yeah, but I have to look on the
elevation sheet. Hold on. believe. Thank you. And six on 12. So it's a 6 in rise on on a 12 inch run. Right. So it almost looks to me like a threetory
structure. And for the three-story structure, it's almost looks like a fourstory structure. That's what a traditional residential roof looks like. Well, that's what it appear. So, yeah, that was the that was the intention here to not make it look like a flat roof, but to make it look
traditional residential in style. So, can that pitch be decreased at all in the architecture? I mean, to something. It could, but I don't know what the purpose would be other than to make it look less attractive. you know, because I believe the senior
housing actually has a pitch less than that. Senior housing on the corners you turn in the Mars County. Okay. Wasn't our intention to match it architecturally.
Okay. Okay. The board the board hears your question even though they may you may not agree with the answer. We hear we hear the question and the answer. So, we're guided by that. Thank you. Okay. Uh, Walter Piccolo from 26 Tall Timber
Drive, Morris Township. Um, I've been hearing from the last meeting affordable housing and I keep hearing the word affordable housing. Only now somebody just stated it was low and very low income housing. Those are two big
different terms. Three big different terms. Um, what are the rents going to be here? Sir, this this is a site plan application, correct? We have nothing to do with the economics of the project. That decision has been
made. We're here to approve or disapprove a site plan application. We're trying to give the Township of Mars the best site plan application possible. So, your questions need to be asked of these witnesses on what they've
testified tonight. Yeah, I'm not I'm not Can I help answer his question a little bit if I may, Mr. Chairman? At least the first part, sir. Um I didn't want anybody to be confused between the difference between affordable housing and very low, low, and moderate income
housing. They are the same thing. Uh affordable housing by definition includes very low, low, and moderate income housing. uh and it's all provided for via the state legislation, the Fair Housing Act, uh and various regulations,
the uniform housing affordability control regulations and the like. So, short answer, they're the same thing. Uh and it's all guided by statute and regulations that the municipality really has no control over that. That's at the state level. Um but also as the chairman
correctly points out uh this is a the limited jurisdiction for this board is the essential elements of the site plan, the lighting, landscaping, storm water, etc. Uh and the subdivision where to carve it out of the lots that the county
generously gave to us as a township. So I hope that helps a little bit. Okay. Uh, as a followup to the tax abatement uh, question, is the tax abatement that like other apartment complexes where they have a 10-year no
pay taxes sort of thing to the township so the township doesn't get anything for 10 years? Again, this is not an appropriate question for a site plan application. I I mean, I I'll grant you a little bit of leeway. The the I'll ask the attorney if if you'd like to give us something of a
brief answer. Sure. So the tax that we that we were speaking to is a funding mechanism from the NJHMFA. So it is a pool of money that the state has set aside for projects such as this that applicants can apply for. It does
not have to do with the taxes that are paid to the township. Okay. So the low and very lowincome housing applicants will have access to funds from the state. No, this particular project is intended to be
funded in part through state programs that have funds available for the development and construction of the projects. The um as Mr. Warner was saying, the rents and the actually the income levels to qualify for the affordable housing are all set by the
state and and the region that you're in. So Morris County is in a particular region. There are limits and the developer is not allowed to charge more than what those limits are and all of the residents have to qualify based on the income that they're making. We don't set those standards. They're set by the
the state. So state sets the standards for how much money you can make and still living in these units. Yes. Okay. They have income limits. Mhm. But the state has no control over what the developer is going to charge in
terms of rent. They do because rent is capped at a particular amount. Okay, that's all I have. Thank you, sir. Next. Hi, my name is Kim Sty. I live at 24 Tall Timber Drive. Um, I have a handful of questions. You ask them all together or
you could you could answer them. You could answer them one ask them one at a time. It might be easier. Okay. Um, great. So, the the first question is regarding uh the emergency vehicles. So, for a firet truck, um you said they'd need to be able to make a K turn to get into the development. So, in
an emergency, if there is a fire, how many firet trucks would you be expecting to show up to a 50 unit um development? And then are we going to have like four fire trucks making K turns on Catch Road, trying to get in at the same time, backing up traffic, and how might that
delay them getting to Mr. Keller, could you uh explain a little more detail where that K turn is made and when it is made? The K turn is not made getting into the site. They would drive directly into the site. They would turn onto the existing driveway.
They would travel down that existing driveway, make a right turn into the site. Got it. Um, and then whichever building they needed to get to, they would set up in accordance with fire department
protocols at those buildings. For them to then leave the site after the event, whatever it may be, they would need to make a K turn either by building one or by buildings two and three. That
would be internal to our project and on the way out. super helpful. Thank you. Um the hot box that you mentioned that's going you said on catch road. Do we know the size of that for the just curious like going to have a new sign. We're going to have a light post. We're also going to have a
hot box. It's a lot of things you're just like adding on catch road. Do we know the size approximately? Not at this point. No. Um we try and move it as far off of the roadway as we can. Okay. the placement of that hot box
and it's not guaranteed at this point that they will require one. Okay. Um um what we have agreed to is that we would landscape it around it so that it would not be visible. Obviously, we're
not going to place it any place where it would impede sight distances. Um, we've also agreed with the township planner that that box would also uh be painted or treated and so that it would be a
neutral earth tone color and then be landscaped around so it would it would blend into the surrounding. Thank you. Um, how many people are you assuming living in each unit? That's just a followup I have to talk about questions about the traffic and number
of cars. Is there limits on how many people factor that that's not a factor that we use in uh calculating the trip generation? It's based on the number of units. I have no idea how many people would be in in each unit.
Do we know if they're going to be I don't know who that question is for. Will there be limits on how many people can live in each unit? I think that would be a question for the attorney. Sure, I can answer that. the in addition to things like income levels and rent, the state also regulates the number of
people that you can have per bedroom like in one single bedroom um to avoid issues like you know having six beds in one room or that sort of thing. Okay. So there are state requirements for that. It's two yeah it's generally two
individuals per bedroom. You have six people in one three bedroom. You're gonna have six six people in a is that what? Six people in a three-bedroom apartment, I think, was the question. No, I think that was the answer. The answer was six people in a three-bedroom apartment. But it wouldn't you wouldn't qualify
under the income requirements if you had six people. So you like it it there's a lot of factors that go into the qualifications for um the affordable units and there are administrators for those units who have all the rules and they have to check to make sure that you actually qualify before you can even
potentially be placed in a unit. Um and the income levels in addition to being per unit type in terms of very low, low and moderate um are also based on the h the number of people in a household. Okay.
How are you deter like okay people apply and they say there's only two of them. How are we preventing four people from living that? You know again this all goes to traffic question. So sorry if could you could you ask the traffic question then because some of what you're asking really is outside of the purview. These are set by the city. It relates it relates to you said that
um the traffic generated in and out is not going to be any different than what's going in and out of that opening. Now I I find that hard to believe with 50 units and how many people are going to be living there. Okay. What I said was the amount of traffic
that is generated based upon the data that we use which is accepted throughout the state and throughout the nation is based on the number of units as it relates to the occupancy. There's
a limit on how many adults will be in there. So, you know, and and that whether it's an affordable housing project or it's a market housing project is based the trip generation is based on
the number of units. So, okay. So, whether you have 50 units that have one person or 50 units that can have six people, it's still the same amount. It's based on the units within the development is how we calculate traffic.
Okay. I Okay. I don't feel like that answers the question necessarily. Um if I may, just for clarification though, I don't I think one thing should be clear. Uh if it's a onebedroom, it can't have six. If it's a twobedroom, it can have six. So it wouldn't be 50 units of
up to six people. It would be a lot less. But you get what I'm getting at, right? Like absolutely. More importantly, the board gets what you're getting at. So that's Okay. Thank you. Super helpful. And then just on the traffic generation, you said again it's based on 50 units. Does it also count, is it just for people living
there or are you accounting for visitors coming in and out, mail delivery in and out, garbage in and out, packages in and out? Does that It counts for everything. That accounts for everything. Peak hours. Everything during peak hours because the data that we use in our trip
generation calculations is based on actual traffic counts. Got it. So you count how many people are going in and out of the community and you divide it by the number of units and that comes up with your trip rate. Thank you. That's a
Thank you. Next, please. Hi, my name is Adam Weisber. I live at One Manor Drive. It's I'm the house at the corner. Um do you happen to know why Catch Road was chosen as the entrance point entrance exit point as opposed to Mars View?
I don't. Okay. Uh, what's the difference? What's the distance between the back of I think that's building one and Morris View. What's the distance between I I don't know. We We We did not look at that. It, you
know, it's not something I looked at. I couldn't tell you what it is. So, do you know the grading behind grading behind building one? What the grading is as you go up? All I know is that going to the west from building one,
you're you're going up in elevation. How much? I don't know. Okay. So, you didn't investigate that? No, we did not. Okay. Is it possible to investigate it if the board requested it? The this the
changing the entrance point from catch to Mars View. I mean, if the board asked, it's not what the redevelopment plan requires. The redevelopment plan is pretty clear
that the access is to catch road. I if I may from a legal standpoint and and our planner could weigh in uh as well uh from the planning perspective, but from a legal standpoint, this board is subject to the zoning uh that
was provided through the legislative process and that is the redevelopment plan. So, uh, this board, uh, would not have the jurisdiction or authority to request something different than what is
in the governing zoning for this site. So, that that would be problematic. Would the if we weren't to you mentioned that it's not I think you use the word not problematic. I'll use
that word as well to exit out on handover. Why why is that? How would we get to handover first, Mr. Keller? I think that maybe people need to get a sense of the property that we own. When I say we, the applicant owns
and p property that belongs to other jurisdictions. Well, and if you could do that just standing up so everybody can see it. Thank you. So, I think these are good questions and I think we need to explain your property versus someone else's
property and the I guess the slopes that don't allow it. Your doesn't allow it. That's not fair. I'm answering his question. So, If you let me answer his question, I appreciate
Can you get a mic? Oh, this is really you think I need it? I don't know, but just in case you got that Hannah Avenue is approximately at the edge of this TV. Um
the lot lot one which is owned by the county which a portion of this proposed lot six is being subdivided out of um
does I I think we can now we have a map there's one that shows Just pan pan down. I want to hold on. Where? So, this location map, which is on the
cover sheet of our site plans, is a scale of 1 in equals 1,000 ft. You can't obviously scale it on there because I don't know really what it it's at. Scaling it off of the
cover sheet. The distance from the northern edge of proposed lot six to handover Avenue is about 600 feet. Um, we go back to the other one. That property is
owned by That's Oh, that's pretty cool. Um, this property is still owned by the county. It is not part of the agreement that the county is selling. You also
have their solar uh panels that are there. Um coming out to that part of Handover Avenue um is a fairly steep grade. Um and there is
curvature in Handover Avenue um which creates a sight distance issue as people come down that hill. Doesn't doesn't Morris View also have that same grading down the hill? Oh, doesn't Morris View also have that same grading? It's on the same hill.
Morris view comes out to catch. Mr. Keller, can you answer the question of this gentleman who just asked it of you? I I don't know the the elevation of the Morris View Healthc Care Facility. It is up the hill. As I said, our the topo
that we show it continues to rise behind building one. How far it goes, I don't know what it is. Miss doesn't can Miss Mazdiak maybe uh advised the extent to which the county has agreed to provide land uh uh beyond that which it has already agreed to provide.
We do not have the rights to land that is not otherwise provided for. We are proposing development on the property that the county has agreed to provide for this specific project. Have they agreed to provide one inch beyond? No. I I have a question to follow up on that. Have you asked the county to pro
to to pro uh provide land beyond that? Yes. We've had many discussions and the redeveloper in addition and the applicant here in addition to the township have had many discussions with the county just to get to this particular piece of land. Um which was candidly smaller when we started than
what you see today. and the county refused to provide access an access point to handover. The county agreed only to provide the land that we have today. That's not the that's not that's not my question. I'm an attorney too. I I can I can I understand what you're asking and the
response that we can provide to you is that this is what the county has agreed to give to us based on our discussions and this is the access that we have. We don't otherwise have access because of all the reasons that our expert has provided to you as to why it is problematic to go to Hanover Avenue. So, did you ask did the county decline to
provide access to Mars View? No, it was not asked to go to Morris View because of the engineering concerns with going there and because with getting there in addition to the conversations we had as to the land that was provided, what were the engineering concerns to
get to Morris View? So in the county provided us with this particular piece of property. We had to have negotiations for a very long time with the county to get to this particular piece of property. Access was provided to us from catch road. Our engineering team, as you
had heard, reviewed getting out to Hanover Avenue, which is um not possible for the reasons that were stated. Um the access was not considered back to Morris view because it was not offered as an option for this particular sir. I think the question has been asked
and answered. Not answered. I'm sorry but not answered. I'm sorry sir. The the question has been answered. I'll rephrase the question though. We Excuse me. Excuse me. We have to have some discipline in the room. We've all
We're all respectful of each other. It's respectful to be respectful each other. I'm the chairman of the the planning board tonight. You've asked your question. If you'd like to restate it, you're more than welcome. But we're not going to sit here all night until you get the answer you want to get. I just want an answer. Did the applicant
request access to Mars view? No. Okay. So, that that concept was never discussed whatsoever. No, it was not. Okay. Thank you. Do you have do you have another question of one of the witnesses? Mr. Chairman, if I may repeat what I said earlier for for the benefit of
councelor who who may have missed it earlier, it's not provided for in the redevelopment plan that governs the zoning that limits this planning board as well when as I believe you understand, correct? I do understand. My question was more to
understand why the why it was never because there's what 50 people here. No, no, we we we understand. The answer was uh uh that it's not, but also legally this board cannot require it. As you understand, I'm not asking the board to require, but that's what we're here for tonight,
sir. We're here for this site plan application. We're not I and I and I respect where you're coming from. A resident of the township. I'm going to have similar issues in my backyard. I'm not just a resident of the township. I'm literally the house. You can see that's my house. No, I understand that. But you've asked
your questions. We need to move on. Okay. What's the I don't know which I think would maybe be you. What's the construction going to be like in terms of noise and how we're going to limit that with timing of the day things like that because I'm literally that's my house
in terms of the actual construction operation that would have to that would have to I think that Mr. Glaze I can address that. So as part if this is approved and if a final site plan is approved when we are required to enter into a
developers agreement with the municipality and one portion of the developers agreement the purpose of it is to regulate how um construction happens the hours the um noise the dust and how all of so
the entire process of construction is governed by not only that agreement but the underlying ordinance that the municipality has for all construction in the municipality. In addition to just that document, there's a pre-construction meeting that happens with um the board and township engineer
in addition to other municipal employees in order to orchestrate how that construction is going to happen and the timing of when in terms of you know not starting at 6 a.m. and there there are ordinance requirements for when that can happen. Do I have any input at all directly or do you contact us directly or is it only
through this type of setting? Um the ordinance of the township establishes those boundaries and then we meet directly with the municipality. The the developers agreement is a governing body document. So it'll be a township committee document. Okay.
Thank you sir. Next. Um Gail Sulcen 39 Timber Drive. Um, respectfully, I understand that you use for for traffic, you use a tool that talks to you about peak hours. Um, I have a question because you're talking
about using a driveway that is also shared access to a park and peak hours in the morning and the afternoon are not necessarily peak hours for the park. That park is used on Sundays for soccer games over and over and over again with
lots of car traffic and lots of kids walking around and moms pushing strollers and dads with kids in each hand and um and I'm wondering if you've looked at both count or township liability um if there is an accident
there if there are three fire trucks that turn onto a road when there's a soccer game that has a hundred people including kids darting back and forth or soccer games going on or soccer practices. Um, I'd really like to know if the township has thought about their
liability if somebody gets hurt by a car entering the the 50 person unit um because they are using and and sharing access that is also used by a park because I I have three kids. I know that they don't walk on sidewalks. I don't
know about your kids. I'm going to answer you in a simple way. If you're asking a question for the witness, he can answer it. If you're asking a question about things that are not contemplated in the site plan, we can't answer that.
Well, I did I I not only asked him if Okay, here. Question number one. How many of the units that How many of the housing units that you've built also share driveways and entrances with parks? How many? I don't know. I I know that we
have done that. Um, we did a project in Hanover Township across from the municipal building. They have fields there and it leads into a a fairly large residential community. It's not unusual. And is it wooded and does it go down so
that people can't necessarily see who's walking up or is it flat where there's full visual access? it the each situation is different.
Correct. So So I'm just I'm just hearing you say that you have not gone to the county. You haven't contemplated going out to Hanover Avenue. you haven't contemplated going through the existing um parking lots of the other units
either Arkowned or low-income senior housing that's that's also on that block in order to get out but you are only contemplating using access to a park where there are children and young families and and oftentimes lots of
people so I'm asking if there is any way to calculate that risk of somebody getting hurt. I can't answer that question. Okay. Thank you. Um I'd also like to know how long this project would be to build. How long are we talking? One month, six
months, a year. Probably 15 to 18 months. and and are there going to be trucks bringing supplies and things in through Catch Road um that would compete with buses that go in and
out of those neighborhoods um dropping off kids, picking up kids? Yes, the trucks would enter via catch road. Um that's the access to this site. Yes, they would be using those roads.
Earlier you spoke about having a a potential alternate entrance for um emergency vehicles. Could that emergency vehicle entrance be used for all construction vehicles that would be entering that site? No.
Is could you provide a reason for that? No. were were they'd still a first they would still use catch road and then they would be driving through Mars Muse parking lot. Um you know
the the housing authority is not going to want construction vehicles to another development running through their parking lot. So this So sir, all due respect, the residents don't want construction vehicles driving through our neighborhood.
So okay, I I think we're bordering on testimony and commentary. You will have an opportunity to do that and soon as the questions are asked, if you're more than welcome to come back up and give us whatever opinions and comments you want to have. These are just questions.
Those were questions. Thank you so much. Hello, I'm back. Kim Sty, 24 Tall Timber Drive. Um, in an attempt to lighten the mood like a little bit. Um, a question on the clubhouse. So, probably for the architect, how will you restrict the
clubhouse entrance to residents? Will it be a key fob? And is there going to be a way to like track can any resident just bring in 20 people and have a party? Because that's right. We're bringing a lot of people into the area. So, how are we going to limit? Probably this is probably a question for the attorney. Oh, okay. Yes, I can answer this on
behalf of the applicant. There is a management company that is on site that has regular hours throughout the week just like any other rental community and any types of parties or events or or you know if someone wants to bring guests in for an organized um I guess we can call it an event but
whatever the whatever it may be at activity at the clubhouse um has to be run through the management company. So the lease will also have rules and and regulations as a part of it which are enforceable by the community. Will somebody from the management company be on site 24? Like what if a resident
doesn't ask and just throws a party without telling anybody? I guess that's a fear. Yes. So that like it is in any residential neighborhood is an instance where um candidly we would expect the member of the public who is bothered by it to call the police who would come and enforce it.
Okay. Thank you. Okay. Next, um, Lee Goldberg, 10 Arrowhead Road. Um, my questions are on a variety of different subject matters that were covered by these, um, witnesses tonight. So, I guess, um, I will start with the, uh, architects. Um, can you bring up a
rendering of the rear of one of these units? I'm not sure if you showed that earlier, but what the rear of the buildings look like. Yes. Can that we'll get it up on the screen. Mr. Eng, I'm working to find one of them, but it's also not going to be representative
of the final design. As we spoke to this evening, we are going to work with the planner and redesign the rear of the facades and also prepare a design report in connection with the um requirements of the underlying ordinance that are applicable. So, for example, I mean, I
can't see the over there. Um, does the rear is the rear? This is the rear of one. And is there is the is the rear of the building depicting any um exits from the ground floor units into the rear or No. So, there's actually in none of the three buildings
is there a rear door? In none of them there's a rear yard. So, okay. That answers my next question. Was there going to be any sort of platform or landing out there for the rear for the people? So, the answer is no. There's no rear doors. No rear doors. In terms of treatment, building one has one story of the stone,
the same stone veneers, the wrap that's around the zone. It has a series of double windows in each of the units that have the same trim and double height treatment that happens in the bays on the front. There just isn't the there just isn't the gables and there's not as
much there's been very little in and out. Very little in-n-out. Yeah, they're stepping in terms of color from sort of AB AB AB life on the same as the front but the relief in terms of plan and some of the detailing is less than
as we discussed before and Mr. Glace that is the facade that we are again to confirm going to be working on with the board. That's correct. We've agreed to relook at the rear elevations of all three buildings. So thank you. Thank you. Um, in terms of the community
building, um, in the exterior space, um, again, I think, um, Miss Van Order had mentioned children living in the neighborhood. Is there any sort of outdoor space planned for a couple of picnic benches, any out the swing set, anything at all for the families? Yes, there is. There's a play area next
to to the north of the community building, the clubhouse. Can you bring up the site plan? I think it's very clear to see it, right? Maybe it was specified before and I just missed it. No, no, we didn't we didn't go into it in detail. Your question's valid. It
hasn't been designed at this point. Um, that would be a final, but the area between the club maybe somebody could just point to the area. Oh, you got your cursor on there, but maybe a finger will be better. That's it. Ah, there you go. Thank you, Mr. Andy. You're doing double duty tonight. So, there will be and and there's a a
covered veranda at the back of the gathering space in the back of the clubhouse. So, there's a small outdoor area here that would probably have some seating in it as well. Okay, very good. Thank you. Um, and then Mr. Keller also referred to the I guess the lighting fixtures 14 foot. Um, any
other lighting elements on to illuminate the rear of these buildings? Um, that's uh facing to any anything else. That's it. That's that's on him. Okay. Well, yeah. I mean, you you refer you that's why it's a little confusing. You were talking about lighting. You know,
we are lighting the parking lot, the driveways, and the fronts of the building, and we're illuminating the sidewalk down to Catch Road. That is the only lighting that we show on our site plans. We haven't we haven't discussed the back of some of these buildings, like the back of building one faces out
onto the woods and the wetlands area. So, I'm I'm actually thinking that that's probably not a facade that we really want to like. Um, but in in in other instances, we've had building mounted lights, low le low height
building mounted lights that are just on motion sensors. So, if you're doing some kind of maintenance out there, um, you know, you could have some light when you need it, but there's really no walkway or or or active space behind building
one or behind building two. And in in terms of building three, you know, we don't want to necessarily throw a lot of light on our neighbor as well, naturally. But there would be there would be wall-mounted building lights at the entrances to each of those individual
entrances in the townhouse style units and at the entrances to walls and stair areas uh at the uh at building one. And that would be uh presented I guess at final site plan. Correct. Okay. Thank you. Um, and then to your point, um, and I guess it was raised by another, uh,
resident as well in terms of the supportive units. Um, you'd mentioned that you like to sort of spread them out throughout the community so that they're not all sort of made to feel like, you know, they're clumped together for any particular reason, not that there's, you know, it just is what it is. I mean,
it's sort of, you know, these are all affordable units. I think this is the only affordable unit in the in the township. So, we're putting it all in one place anyway. So, but to the point of it being electrical and having generators and doing that as efficiently as possible, would it make more sense to have them colllocated? Because if this
area is prone to power failures, there's no rather than have them spread out multiple generators throughout. There's no I'm just asking is from an architectural or engineering. If we end up doing it, they're very small. So we're talking about, you know, if we're talking about just PG units, um
you'll be looking at a generator that's probably 4 foot by two foot by two foot. So, you know, we're not looking at like a large um generator that you might have seen um that's as tall as a person, right?
U so I think placement placement of something like that is probably no more problematic than putting the air conditioning, right? Okay. And Mr. Goldberg should just further answer your question. There are particular requirements by the state for um where the supportive units are
located. So we even if we wanted to place them all together in one location within the property, we we can't do that or we'd be in violation of the state regulation. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. I didn't know if that was just an option or a choice or but it's mandated. So thank you for for clarifying that. um
on the one of the renderings of the front of the units. I can't tell um that was brought up. Is there on on the second floor units does that first one on the on your top picture there on the far left. Is there any is there any sort of outdoor access? It looks like there's
almost like a deck up there below above with some fence railing. That's on the on the twostory units. We didn't mention that before. on the twostory buildings at the corner where there's a threebedroom unit is a small balcony that is will be accessible from the unit
correct not just decorative see that right above your head yeah it's hard to tell if this is a window or a door I don't know so okay so so the the corner units will have outdoor access okay thank you um
I know in the general development plan there's I guess a waiver for the environmental impact statement Um, I'm not sure if did you give environmental testimony? I heard you talking about wetlands earlier, uh, Mr. Keller, so I don't know if this question would be appropriate, uh, for you. Um, so that I
guess given there's a waiver, there will not be one done. Is that accurate? Mr. Keller, could you use the microphone just so that we can get it on the recording, sir? That's okay. Thank you. So the redevelopment plan, it's not a waiver that we're asking. It's not
required. I did give environmental testimony because of the wetlands on the property. We are going to and we have already looked at environmental concerns with this property and we've addressed them both from a phase one
perspective and also from a wetlands perspective but the EIS is not a requirement in the redevelopment plan. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that before you next question. I'm just going to supplement that um to provide for the
benefit of anyone that wasn't at the public hearing on the redevelopment plan. I had clarified that the language in our redevelopment plan for the exemption from an EIS is uh more appropriately a clarification
that this development in its intensity and type of development would not trigger an EIS as required by our township code. So had that language not been in the redevelopment plan, the uh
extent of proposed development, the size of the development in total and subdivision and site plan would not trigger our environmental impact statement requirements. So there is not a requirement of our code that is being
exempted for this developer. It's not a requirement from our code that is being exempted. Correct. If this is if this application was made under a normal site plan application without a redevelopment plan, there would be no change in the
requirements for the environmental impact. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying. Um I know it was brought up at last week's township committee meeting. I know as you may be aware we do have an environmental commission um within the township. So, if the applicant would be willing to maybe get
a report from them and take that into consideration heading into final site plan, um would that be something you'd be willing to indulge or and participate in or is that even a valid question or an option? It's it's well, I'll let you answer.
Sure. So, um our understanding is that all applications are distributed to the necessary committees and departments for review. So to the extent that there is a review letter issued between now and the time of final, it's certainly something that we would review and comment on. Okay, great. Thank you. Um I know this
has been uh talked about numerous times previously tonight, but the hot box uh it was one of my questions. Um I still have a question about it is I know I think you'd mentioned they could be unattractive. What's the was it the size of a Volkswagen Beetle, a refrigerator? How big is this type of unit? It depends
on the specifics of the uh what the water company requires. Um they are generally generally about six feet high u 6 feet deep and they
vary in length of you know generally a minimum of 14 ft long. 14 ft or what? I'm sorry or long. Oh 14t long at a maximum. Not a maximum generally generally so depends on the specifics of the each
instance you know it's not something that we want to build naturally but building you were referring to it as unattractive and just just trying to get a sense of which is why we said we would landscape it and we would also
because the basic box is aluminum okay Mr. Mr. Goldberg, any other questions? Yes, I do have other questions. Is that okay? Yes. Okay, very good. Um, in terms of uh if you can bring back the site plan, Mr. Keller, with the um the
the access road. So, is there any way to scroll this up a little? So, thank you. So with th the this road here is currently existing. Correct. That is correct. Correct. This walkway path is not existing. Correct. Correct.
Is there an engineering reason um and I think the woman that spoke to before twice before me um about safety and kids walking along this road. Is there any reason um from an engineering perspective why this couldn't why it has to tie around here and actually almost weave into the
road because of the hightra nature of multiple games and all this? Why would we want to bring folks in towards the road to walk versus maybe cutting in through this way and not bringing them as close to traffic? Is because of the the way the land is or the lot alignments?
Generally, we put sidewalks along roadways. Um it it exists all along catch road. Okay. Um, the reason that it veers away from the driveway, as I said before, is for ADA accessibility, but generally we like to follow the roughly.
Okay. Thank you. Um, in terms of my I have a question about snow removal, will the township be responsible for the snow removal? That'll be privately managed. Privately. Is the plan to cart the snow off site and take it off in big storms or where would you see like so for
example, you know, if they they can't put it back up in here because of the the the the garbage container and that would also block the fire truck from being able to turn around in my estimation. So where would the snow go? There are areas on the site that they
would be placed. It depends on the how much snow that we get. Um there are areas where it could be placed. um in an unusually big snowstorm. Yes. Uh it may need to be carded off. Um so there are
areas where it can be placed. Could you point out where those areas might be or scattered throughout the site? I mean, you know, they would be off the roadways where we don't have sidewalk um beyond parking spaces.
Okay. All right. Thank you. And you had mentioned that the requirement for the site is 75 parking spaces, but you're providing 89. The rationale for that is just to be overly generous with parking. Or is there is there any what's the rationale behind that? Because this appears to me
to be sort of from my estimation a minimal viable buildout here. So why why the extra parking? Well, you know, the the redevelopment plan requires a reduced amount of parking compared to RSIs. in discussions
with the applicant um we felt that it was appropriate um you know when we may not build as much uh as we show I mean the other thing is placing parking where
it's convenient to each of the buildings you know and to provide access for visitors so um may choose not to to build it all look at it again and reduce that number. But we think this is the right number.
And does the the the existence of the clubhouse factor into that number? No. No. So, okay. Um, you also alluded to I think the fact that in these particular units there's a a lower level of
likelihood of people to own automobiles. Could you just elaborate on that? For the supportive housing unit. Oh, for the supportive housing unit. Okay. not for the rest of them, you know, right? Just for the supportive housing. And then you also referenced that and so now because they're in supportive
housing, additional vehicles and trips may be coming there because of the nature of the fact that they're supportive housing. When I did our trip generation calculation, I wanted to be conservative and I did not discount the 50 units for
the supportive housing. So Okay. All right. Thank you. Um, and in terms of slopes, we the I know slopes were mentioned, but no plan for a need for any sort of Steve slopes variance or anything on on the site. Is that correct?
That's correct. Okay. Thank you. Um, those are the all questions I I did have um two questions for Mr. Warner based on his comments, but is that permissible to ask him to? Certainly. Go right ahead. So, okay, Mr. Warner would love to answer you. Thank you so much.
Wait a minute. Does Mr. Warner gets to answer whether it's permissible. No. Come on. Go ahead. So, Mr. Warner, I think just to be clear because I think in some of the commentary that was made about the third and fourth round, I think you had made the comment that we're satisfied with our fourth round obligation, but I don't
think you meant that we've satisfied it like we've built out the units, but we're satisfied with the number. So, if you could just clarify that. Sure. I I'll clarify. as of uh we had a all municipalities uh had a deadline of
June 30 to submit a housing element and fair share plan as a municipality uh to demonstrate that it can satisfy its fourth round obligation which we uh reduced by almost 200 units on behalf of the township uh through the concerted
efforts of all those involved including the governing body uh and all professionals uh that plan uh a very very viable plan that demonstrates satisfaction with the entirety of that fourth round from 2025
to 2035 that I talked about that entire 10-year period obligation. The plan that satisfies that shows how it will be satisfied over that time frame was put together by Liz Laney and Paul Phillips. that was submitted prior to June 30,
having been adopted by the planning board and having been endorsed by our township committee. So, as of today, we continue to uh uh uh have compliance and repose and to be immune from builder's
remedy lawsuits as we have been, if I recall correctly, since the start of this process almost 50 years ago. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you. And then my final question for you is um with your initial comments of how we got here originally,
I think you had alluded to the fact something and I want to make sure I heard this correctly. It the way I interpreted it was that on something about the litigation with the Drew Forest that you saw how that judge or the judge reacted to that and did that then guide our decision on how to move
forward with litigation or what was the linkage there between that you were trying to draw there? Sure. I uh the when I tried to do a uh 15 or 17 year history and summarize it in a few minutes, um my reference was at the time
of that particular litigation that spawned this settlement agreement with uh this 50unit 100% affordable uh uh uh obligation at a particular site. uh we were litigating fair share was looking
for about 200 units i.e. what could have been about a thousand units in total uh here and elsewhere throughout our municipality. Uh and at the same time as that litigation was going on and uh we were aggressively defending and making
and made a motion to dismiss that litigation a very similar case was going on in Madison involving Drew University and in particular their forest. uh same judge, he denied their motion to dismiss. Uh and then ultimately, I guess
the phrase is proof in the pudding. Madison law, excuse me, uh uh uh yeah, Madison lost that litigation. So, uh, uh, one can reasonably assume that had we not resolved it, uh, we'd be looking at, uh, not only not having, uh, the Red
Bull's facility and who knows what, uh, in those 80 acres right now, but we, one can also reasonably assume we would have gotten hit with a a 200 unit affordable obligation that may have had to have been satisfied uh, through an inclusion
project with a,000 units. So that was my only uh that's why I referenced what I referenced. Uh a lot goes into any settlement of any litigation as you know. Um that might have been part of the thought process. Okay. All right. We've deviated from the site plan
application questions but we wanted to give you that opportunity Mr. Goldberg. Well well thank you. I appreciate it because it was it didn't it's good to understand that. We'll let the next person come up now. Good evening. Andress Ortmanis 3 Manor Drive. Ah, this could be short.
Oh, Andress Ortmanis three manor drive. This could be short. If Morris Catch Road LLC does go ahead and this is constructed, I just want to confirm. We had some lively discussion about shared access to a park
and, you know, and and and the development. I just want to confirm that we will no longer have a park and an adjoining soccer field in our neighborhood that is walkable for our children and young families. Is that
correct? They're going to stay. I don't even know how to answer that question. The Well, the question it's pretty easy to answer. No, no, no. You're trying. No, I think you're I'm going to swear you in when you want to say that in your opinion that's not going to be the case.
But if you want to ask one of their witnesses whether that's the case or not. Oh yes, they they could then let's see if they can. Well, that's what I meant. I'm sorry. I'll tilt my body over here and ask the uh ask the the the engineer. Is that something one of the witnesses can answer or council can answer
or is it a rhetorical question? Well, I think is the the is the question are we eliminating soccer field the park and the soccer fields? No. No. This project is not going in an area where the soccer fields and park are. It's currently vacant open space. It's
not a soccer field currently. That will remain. The soccer field will survive and the catch road park will survive as well for our children. Yeah. Yes. All right. Okay. Thank you. I Here's the soccer field. Hold on. I'm moving the boxes so that it's not over there.
So, here's the access drive. Here are the two existing playgrounds. And here's a side other side of that access room. Okay, thank you. I'll get my prescription changed on these glasses. Thank you. Next, please. Sorry, Adam Weisberg of One Manor Drive
again. No, no, no. I'm sorry. Go for it. I'd like to say good afternoon or good night to everyone. All right. Good night. Hi. Can you please say your name? You don't want to know my name, but
anyway. Thank you. My name is Darthothy Johnson and I live at 93 Catch Road. Amen. For the last 25 years and I'm so grateful that our residents
gave us a notice of this meeting when it mentioned where I live. I wanted to know what they were planning where I live. And so now that I've heard board and I
thought I would here tonight, I'm going to be brief to the planning board. Excuse me, ma'am. I don't mean to cut you off, but it sounds like you're going to offer testimony. No, this is not a testimony.
Is it a question for one of the witnesses? Because you'll have an opportunity to come back up. There's three people behind you that have questions and then you're more than welcome to come up and say whatever it is you'd like to say. Swear Miss Johnson in that she wishes to Is that okay with the three people waiting?
Miss Johnson, since you're already there, we'll swear you in and we'll we'll deviate from the procedure for a minute. Oh, well, I'm I'm not going to take advantage of that because I just No, no, no, no. You have you we we've agreed to allow you to do that. Mr. Warner, will you swear in, Miss Johnson? May I swear you in, Miss Johnson? If you
raise your right hand, if you don't mind. Your right your right hand, please. Thank you. Do you swear to God or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? The whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thank you, God. Thank you, Mrs. Johnson. And please
proceed. Excuse me. One one other thing as a point of order. We're going to limit We're going to limit the comments to three minutes and I'll be keeping time and I'll let you know when you have 30 seconds left. So, go ahead whenever you're ready to start. That was one
suggestion I had limping time. But anyway, I would like it's not a question. It's just a statement and I think that you need to hear that to the planning board. I hope you consider this
group who has come to get permission to build housing for people who really need it. I only say that because it's very it's not often that these kinds of
housing are built in these communities. And so on behalf of those who live where I live in the senior complex live where I used to live in my own home um 25 years ago. I hope that you would
consider their offer to build decent housing for people who need a decent place to live. Thank you so much for listening. This is my first time being here and I see that there are other people who are coming to
find out and encourage you to keep working together so that all all of us would be comfortable in a place that is nice for us. Thank you, Mrs. Johnson. Anyone else? Is this a question, ma'am, or are you going to make a comment?
I have a question. Great. Go right ahead. Give us your name and address, please. Good evening, everyone. I am Reverend Francina Sap. My address is 97 Catch Road, apartment 3B3. Amen.
I have three short questions. Uh what Okay, first one, a very simple one. You mentioned that there was three of the apartments that had three bedrooms. How many bathrooms?
Three. Three bedroom apartments all have two bath. Two bath. Oh, good. I didn't hear that. Thank you. Thank you. And the second question was um you mentioned about the sidewalks. Are there going to be sidewalks that
lead from each one of the buildings from from B from you know because you have three. So there will be Okay, that's good. Yes, ma'am. Okay, let's see. What was the other one? Oh, the laundry room. Is there laundry room on each floor of the building
instead of three stories or just one? Each unit will have access to their own personal laundry service. Oh, wonderful. In addition to the community building which will have community laundry. Oh, okay. Very good. Very good. Thank
you. That's all I needed. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Weissberger. I'm sorry. Weisberg. That's Weissberg. Sorry. Um the light on the It's on the intersection of H uh Catch and Manor. Is there a street light there that was
being installed? We are putting a polemounted light on the corner of the driveway and catch. We have a 14 foot high uh posttop fixture located in that
location. Which way is it going to be facing? Like is it going to be facing faces down? Oh, it'll face down. Yes, it's a full cut off fixture. Um, one of the board members asked me, so would I would that light impact my
house at one manner across the street? Okay. Um, I guess this is a question for Mr. Warner or maybe the board, I'm not sure. Ask the question. Is it possible to deny the site plan and
require an investigation as to whether the whether the county would allow Morris view as the in entry and access uh the access point. Mr. Warner, we'll let you answer that legally. Uh well, the the the board will decide
whether the application is approved or denied from a legal perspective. If the board were to deny this application uh for even the inquiry of whether or not access can be provided other than is
required by the redevelopment plan which is the ordinance that governs the zoning and governs this board. Uh, unfortunately, I would have to opine that that would that would be a basis for denial that I and any other attorney would not be able
to defend. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Next, ma'am. Sorry. It's okay. Take your time. I'm going to ask you just to give us one second. I see that I'm over by five minutes on our
uh reg required stop time. I'm gonna ask for a motion from one of the board members to extend the hearing till 11:00 at this time. Second. Uh can we do that as a hand vote? All in favor? All in favor? I
Thank you. I'm sorry, ma'am. Um I'm gonna get fired after tonight. Jaclyn Pado, 14 Cornhill Drive. Um, I appreciate your tolerance right now and your I'm asking a for clarification on
some things. Um, the sidewalk that you were talking about, speaking of, is that going from now that I can really see your map, is that going from Catch Road down to No, there already is a sidewalk that
goes from down catch road to the housing authority drive. Yes. Because it does go to the corner. Correct. Correct. Um but you weren't talking about um in front of the soccer field and towards Well, you also stated that there is an
existing sidewalk that runs down Catch Road towards Lake Road, but we're building a sidewalk from the existing sidewalk on Catch Road into our site into your site. Correct. But you're not going this way. It already exists.
No, there's no It's on It's on the east side of Catch Road. We're not building one on the ball field side because you have one across the street. Perfect. That was Oh, sorry. I lost my sign. Sorry. Sorry. Um I do have a question. Lighted sign. Is
there a reason for the lighted sign? I mean, I live in Butterworth and my sign's not lighted. Why does it need to state like if there's going to be a light there, why does it have to be lit? It's very soft uh lighting just to I to show the name of the community.
Um that announce the building um you said it's um minimally visible the first building side the first building is visible from like man and people that are right on the corner
there is it I mean the the area is there's a lot of existing vegetation that is not being disturbed there is additional vegetation that's being proposed So, but in the winter that would change that.
It depends. I I don't know specifically where we put evergreens, which would would provide a greater year- round buffer. Okay. Um the management for the housing you said is on site, correct? Is um
is this road a private road or is this a township road going into the complex? the the roads within the proposed lot six are private. Um just the road then going into the
playground is public. I I don't know what the uh maintenance responsibilities are whether it's a township. We have an access easement over that uh between the owner of lot one which is the county and our
property. So therefore um I don't know to this question but so um plowing and garbage becomes responsibility of the township. Plowing within the community would be the responsibility of the community.
The access road in is already taken care of by the township and will continue to be taken care of by the township. I'm sorry if I answered the question out of line, Mr. Warner. that entrance going in to catch it does slip down. You're not changing the grade
for that. It's going to stay like that. Correct. Okay. So, coming up, um will there be any type of mirrors for them? You know, like the sometimes they have them on your lighted post to be able to see.
There's no need for that. there's adequate sight distance at that driveway in both directions for exiting vehicles from that driveway to see approaching vehicles on catch road. Um I just want to ask about the
um the um units. So this is now I guess I'm assuming it's privately owned. Is that how I'm assuming this whole entire complex is? So affordable housing is not um residents get to own like it's like a condo. It's not it's renters coming in and out.
Yes. Correct. Um with that um I know you were saying that you're allowed two people in a bedroom. Well, we know that in Marstown Mars Township um rentals there's a lot of problems with stacking. So how is that
going to be handled in controls? And I know that's for a fact. So the lease agreements that are signed by the residents have limitations on occupancy. So if they violate that, it's a violation of the lease and it's handled by the management company and
owner as such. And so I just have one more question. Um at last week they they had talked about West Ham Avenue is a county road. So is any thought about sidewalks going down? So like if you're at Catch Road, you've
come out of the complex and you take a right on Deanna Avenue. Is there any thoughts of sidewalks going down that road? Because there's concern, voice concerns about people because there are no sidewalks and you are going to have people in a few units that are um
disabled or lower income to be able to take their wheelchairs and go down that road. They're going to be any type of sidewalks built there. So if they're not going through them in our trial that well from the different
no that is out maybe council could answer the question. Sure. So that is out that's outside of the scope of this particular application and would be governed by the um county since it's their jurisdiction. So we don't have any plans for installing
sidewalks in the county right ofway off track of this particular project. My question is why is dangerous road and you have no access for people to
can you or the council for that matter dictate to the county whether sidewalks can be law county? We cannot It's 14. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Sir.
Hi, I'm Joe Ford. You can hold it if you'd like if that's more comfortable. Quick question, Mr. Cow. First, to the animals are safe, right? did a study to show the animals safe. The animals did environmental study. The animals in
the whole area are safe. We're disturbing a very small area within a very large track. So, I mean, there's some displacement, but you know, not a lot. Second question you guys, why didn't we do a similar test for our kids? I got
kids that drive up and down that road going in and out of the park every day. I go running there 600 6:15 at night I see 15 20 kids up and down there. Why didn't we has to have to do some kind of a study on all right this in this this traffic
it's going to be increased traffic you got to know that there's going to be chances for for injury for accidents why didn't you guys I mean you guys represent us right that's not one person brought up kids in
neighborhood one one person did um that that's my biggest you know Everyone needs place for I'm fine with all that. Why didn't we do a study on the impact of safety on kids? That's it. Thank you, sir. Does anyone else have any questions?
You guys can answer that. No, we can't answer that question, sir. It has nothing to do with the application tonight. It's you have an opportunity to get up and give commentary and then you can ask the question again as a um rhetorical question. As that question this whole process, you
guys just don't care about the kids. No, that's not Don't put the words in the planning board's mouth, please. And and or anyone else's, in fairness, nobody should do that to you or anyone else either. The the the uh and and as far as the governing body uh adopting a
redevelopment plan ordinance, this planning board is subject to that ordinance. That's the zoning that they're permitted to to address. And uh this is in essence a fully conforming site plan. So there is only limited jurisdiction
that this board has uh to address essential elements such as landscaping, storm water, etc. Uh the um again you can turn uh during the public comment which will be very shortly I'll swear you in and you can make that question
into a comment that you think that's something that someone along the lines should have uh done. I suspect it was considered uh by by the legislative branch of our municipality. Uh but it is not something
that this board has within its control for sight planned subdivision purposes. They can only look at storm walk the ensure the feasibility. So why do we ask about the kids? So so you when can you ask about the kids?
When do we get answers? May may I answer this question? Sure. Go ahead. We always think about all the people. It may not be topfront in the question itself, but our questions always consider the the community. And so we
might not say what about the kids here, but it's built into our questions. We do this a lot. And it's built into everything that we want to know because it's processes for our community. The process is to improve our community.
There are things that we cannot control, but the questions we ask and our concerns about a development always include people who live in our community. Thank you. Is there any other questions for either of these actually for any of
these three four witnesses? on. Okay, we have an engineer. Does anyone want to take a shot at saying pronouncing his name correctly? Yeah, it works.
So, is there Ma'am, do you have a question for any of the witnesses? Well, we might not be able to hear you, ma'am. That's why don't worry, I won't sing. Um, give us your name, address again, please. Jacqueline Pashado, 14 Cornhill Drive.
Um I have a quick just a question about the um you said there's you don't think a lot of the animals will be displaced that that there's just a small amount. So there there will not be any type of study on the animals in the area
nothing will be done there. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions for any of these four witnesses? Lee Goldberg, 10-hour head road. I just had one more question um about the um the number of units and the credits that
the township gets. So, um last week we learned about the sale of four old turnpike road. It's going to be like a co-one facility and because it's a special type of facility, it counts for 10 units rather than the five you five rooms that are going to be there. So because this is 50 units and it's all affordable, is there any bonus
allocation to our total number for the round or is it just 50 straight units? Probably first and foremost, this is outside the jurisdiction of the planning board with respect to the subdivision site plan application that we're hearing
this evening. Um so that that said uh it's my understanding that the 50 unit obligation would satisfy the 50 unit obligation in the settlement agreement. I don't know that we would be able to
get bonus credits. Uh uh we may have maxed out on them in the third round and fourth round anyway. Uh right we did we I'm sorry. bear. Uh the planner is going to answer that question.
Uh okay. So this is a third round site, right? So third round rules apply. In the third round, you could get rental bonuses. And this is a a rental project. You could we had maxed out our rental bonuses prior to this project, but this
project essentially increased our obligation by 50 units. So we are uh contesting if you read the fourth round plan which it's fine if you didn't because it's boring but the it know but
it it is you a 25% of that 50 unit um would be a bonus. So of those 50 we'd get 50 then we would get an additional um sorry 12 and a half sorry 12 and a half uh bonus credits. Um and so that is
what we are have put in our fourth round plan. You know, this wasn't something that was part of the settlement agreement with uh fair share housing center. So they might have something to say about it, but we think we're entitled to that 12 and a half bonus credits. Thank you. Again, are there any other
questions? Seeing none, I'd like a motion. Yes, Miss Johnson. question to the planning board. How long will it take you to make a decision to the contract? How long would it take
you to start working? Miss Johnson, I I think you're you're not asking really questions. You're you're trying to make a point. And I'd like Mr. Warner, do we need to re-wear in Mrs. Johnson or That's okay. No, she she she remains
under oath to the extent it's a point and to the extent it's a question. Uh they I I'll try to tee up the question to the planning board. When this hearing is over tonight, the planning board will then have an opportunity to discuss the
merits versus the detriments of the project. One of us will make a motion to either approve or disapprove and then we'll take a vote on it if it is seconded and there's no discussion. So, that could happen fairly quickly if we get to that point, but we're not there
just yet. I can't speak for the contractors. So we we still have to um as we spoke about this evening file for a final site plan application which will come after the tax credit applications. So as soon as we have that approval and and
resolution compliance complete for it as you heard earlier the construction timeline is 15 to 18 months from that final approval. So two to three years maybe two years would be the hope. Yeah. Before it's completed.
Thank you. Could I get a motion from uh one of the board members to close the uh questioning of the witnesses? So moved. Second. Can I do that as a hand vote? That's fine. All in favor? I I Okay, now we're going to open up public
commentary. So if anyone has a comment they'd like to make, we're going to give everyone three minutes and I will raise my hand when you're at 30 seconds. So, just give me a look every now and then as you're speaking and I'll need your name. I'm sorry, Mr. Warner. We'll need
your name and address and then Mr. Warner will swear you in because as he's mentioned, this is a quasi judicial hearing. Please raise your right hand. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear to God or affirm testimony about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Thank you.
Please proceed. So, I kept telling you going as I said I couldn't feel more helpless and as someone mentioned in the last board meeting they wish they'd taken a civics class and just like listening to you guys I definitely wish that I had paid so much more attention. Um I represent
the over 400 now um petitioners homeowners and voters in the area and I can actually do this with you that are asking you to um hold off on approving us at this point. Um, so I'm representing a very large group of people within our neighborhood who are
very concerned. Um, and I understand that this is a planning board meeting and I just also want to bring to light that the last board meeting, I know it's been very frustrating that a lot of these questions have been asked, but the last board meeting a lot of the questions were deterred for this meeting, which is why I think a lot of
people were bringing these things to your attention at this meeting. Um I understand that the decision for this location has been somewhat made on with because there's a lot of different aspects that have gone into this. that
um as my husband reminds me and my two teenage daughters daily um big decisions without the proper planning those the repercussions for that are there's it's very irresponsible to do and I don't think that in this meeting
even today we've gotten a lot of the answers that we needed as far as the planning for just the building site itself there's been a lot of things that have been said that oh well if you look into this can we get this information there's a lot open-endedness. And I think that a lot of what's been presented today looks great on a piece
of paper or on a rendering, but this is an area where people live. Um, this is a we all have homes in the neighborhood. Uh, our children are interacting in the neighborhood. And to the same point that was made earlier, there's a lot of
interaction that happens within the neighborhood as far as cars, traffic, kids, kinds of dangers are happening in the park itself um that have not been considered. You know, more than one fire truck needing to get into this area. Um there's just a lot of things that are not really the answers are not there.
Um, you know, obviously we brought up the concerns about our property values and our homes that we've invested our life savings into and all of the other things the last board meeting. Again, I understand that this is a planning meeting. Um, but the the biggest issue here is not
just the emotions that we're having as homeowners, but the actual again, this is a planning board meeting and there is a tremendous amount of lack of actual planning that's going into this. This feels like an incredibly rushed decision and we feel like this is being rushed
through. Um, again, I feel like this has been done. I guess I've got 30 seconds. So, um, the last thing that I'm going to say is that, um, we voted you guys in. So, and I understand that there your obligation is to uphold the law, but your obligation
is also to us as residents and taxpayers and we are asking you to hold off on this until a reconsideration is made at least as far as the entrance of petrol. I think that's very fair for us. We are this is going to affect our community.
We are not against low-income housing. We are against how this is being done and how it's being implemented into our actual community and our neighborhood. And I think it's only fair to say to take a pause and think this through and make an educated decision and don't rush
to approve this plan until you really have a good Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Anyone else want to make a comment? Yes, you want to catch us up four minutes. Please raise your right push
that up a little bit more if you'd like. I I want your comment to have the weight of testimony like everybody else's. Do you swear to God or affirm the testimony you're about to give? Is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Yes, Mr. Please proceed. Good evening. Each speaker has already
outlined in detail the reason this development plan would harm our community. Rather than reiterate their wellreason's arguments, I will focus on how we arrived at this point and what our community intends to do moving forward. When I say we, I refer to the 100 plus members of the ad hoc group or
town residents postro development plan. Many members of our group are here this evening despite the short notice provided to this public meeting. We harbor no illusions that our words persuade your decision. We understand these hearings may seem as procedural formality and that the planner will likely approve. Nevertheless, we are
resolute in our commitment to challenge this development at every stage. Our determination does not end tonight. Let's consider the combination the composition of the planning board. While the cancer's population is roughly oneird Democrat, one third Republican and one third unaffiliated, the 11
member board comprises of eight Democrats, two Republicans and one unaffiliated. This imbalance limits healthy debate and reduces accountability creating a climate that forces rubber staff decisions rather than thoughtful deliberation. In 2019, I served on the Mars Democratic Committee
when Jeff Greyel became mayor. I've since left the committee and no more registered Democrat. At that time, Mr. Gel openly discussed his intent to appoint party loyalist to council committees, a process he could work with, Mr. George Quillin, then a member of the Democratic committee and now a
planning board member. While appointees may have been accomplishing their careers, few had evident expertise in areas critical to planning, civil engineering, zoning law, or environmental science. Compliance appear to be valued over competence. The committee's credibility is from our
respective compromise. I recall Mr. Chris expressing his wish to fire town administrator Timothy Quinn with no other reason than party affiliation despite Mr. Qu's long and distinguished service to Morris Township. This level of partisanship undermines faith in the
ideal protective governments. We also note that there were missed opportunities and questionable decisions. One major misstep was to sell the Honeywell property to the New York Red Bulls. This parcel would have been an ideal site for affordable housing, something our community agreed is needed if done responsibly. The rationale for
this transaction remains unclear. Several ogre requests we submitted for related records have been denied, but our efforts to recover the facts will continue. Updates will be posted to our Facebook page tomorrow as a tax president cash development plan. We also question the tax committee's assertion
that they face a rigid state deadline. A lawsuit legal challenge New Jersey 2024 household law 24 chapter 2 filed by numerous municipalities suggested legal avenues to seek relief. Our legal team believes Mars Township could join that
suit potentially attaining both an extension and a core sharing arrangement. If one tsy explore this option and represents a great oversight. I would also like to address the traffic and environmental concerns. The committee claims the exemption from the usual traffic and environmental studies
required for a project of this scale. Well, technically accurate under section 502 or Morris County development standards. Sir, you have 30 seconds left. The absence of a requirement should not equate to responsibility. You can just shut me up when I get when I get there. The proposed development of full flood
thresholds for mandatory traffic study and public safety demands of such studies voluntarily nearby intersections especially road county road 650 already experienced heavy traffic and all these residential exacerbines
children's playground field and nearby senior living facilities the increase in vehicular activity presents real risks to our most vulnerable populations while concerns are equally pressing the proposed site lights with watershed naturally through the upper safe wh and
roughway rivers construction could increase flooding risks damage habitats and results of over 100 mature trees and nesting areas for migratory birds sir you're at your limit and just for the record I've let you go an extra minute if you'd like to pass that on to
somebody else they could finish reading your speech for you thank you does anyone else have a comment they'd like to make yes sir please stand. Uh, come up. Give us your name and your address and then you'll be sworn in. You can just hold it.
Oh, I think you've shut it off. Excuse me. I' I've got to ask a board member to give us another 15 minutes or uh we go to 11:15. Make that motion. Second. All in favor? I I
uh my name is Dale Porter. I live at 17 Mark Twain Drive and my Mr. Porter, can you raise your right hand, please? Oh, sure. Do you swear to God or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Thank you. Please proceed.
Mr. Porter, I'll be stopping you at uh 3 minutes. Okay. Um my story isn't that long. Um I we have a a uh an affordable housing
project on Jean Street, which is in our subdivision, more or less. And uh the garbage containers are those big tubs. And there's garbage on the on the
pavement all around them. Um the street lights, uh like this gentleman said, uh these 14-footers that are in this area, uh 20% of them are burned out.
And on Jean Street, there's five regular street lamps and they have been burned out for over a year. So, I mean, just because they're unaffordable doesn't mean we have to keep them in the dark.
Sir, that's a good point. I I would encourage you to give the town a call tomorrow and let them know about the safety hazard and they'll get somebody out there. Um, I have already done that. I have I have uh this was
they've been burned out for a year. A year ago I sent a letter to uh Chief Sher and a letter to Tim Quinn. Okay. I I promise you one of us will follow up on this tomorrow. Thank
any other comments. Sure. If you keep coming up, I'm going to memorize your name. We need your name, your address, and we'll have to swear you in. Jaclyn Pashado, 14 Cornhill Drive. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear to It's already up. Do you swear
to God or affirm the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Thank you. Please proceed. I completely agree with what agree with what Amy was saying about postponing and finding getting more information for the residents. We have lived here for a very
long time. We have raised our families here and we understand that this is going to happen. We're not trying to stop it. We're trying to stop the traffic as you come out onto West Hover Avenue. And there's a light up there. And
there's got to be a way to navigate this traffic to that light to come out on Hanover Avenue because coming out onto catch road out of coming up on that hill. I did it the other day to see what it was like to make a left. There's going to be accidents. It is not
a safe place to now start putting. And you're acting like it's a minimal amount of traffic. I don't agree with you. There is 80 parking spots. People are going to be going in and out. So, what is that going to cause? Not only accidents, but I think your microphone will stop the
timer so that that could be addressed. You're not getting caught on the recording and that's what needs to happen. Thank you. Switching. I think I think it's working again. back. Just have it ready. Go ahead, ma'am.
So, my concern as a resident is emergency services. What are we doing to emergency services? There's going to be more calls in more for the fire department and more for the police department who are already
stretched thin. So, I really would like for you to consider. So, one second. Sonia, can we trouble you to pass that other mic? She needs a mic that works. Okay. Ran out of batteries.
We've stopped. We've stopped the clock. You're on bonus time. Okay, thank you. So that is the reason why I really would like to reconsider and just get more information about rerouting this out to
the light to go on West Hanover Avenue. So these residents who are some of them are could be disabled who could seriously still be driving can go out onto a safe road which is West Hannah Avenue and they're not going out on
catch road and taking a left because you do not live in this area. You don't you're giving me traffic patterns but you weren't there when there's traffic. So please consider just postponing and look into it. I know that you're saying that the county or the is not giving us
the property, but no one's explored it. So, please look into it. Thank you. Thank you. Next, please. Ma'am, we'll need your name, your address, and you'll need to be sworn in. Susan McManis Spyel, 91 Catch Road, Marstown.
Do you swear to God or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Thank you. Please proceed. I will affirm what the last two ladies said. I'm going to ask you to postpone your decision. I think you need to do your due diligence. I don't feel that strongly feel that that has been done. I
understand that the planning board doesn't have any right or any power to make the decision over where the access should be. Um there's several things that haven't been considered. There's no no parking signs on Catch Road and I will tell you during soccer time they
are parked and double parked going up Catch Road. Have been for years. It's an issue. Nobody does anything about it. The access there is an old road that used to go up from the back of that property up
by the old building one between that and the dog kennels. I think whoever's responsibility is whether it's zoning whichever department it is you need to do due diligence. You need to speak to the county. Will it cost money? Yes. The
county gave you this property for nothing. I think you need to do what's right for the residents, what's right for the people that are going to live there. I heard the sightelines. I live there. I travel that road every day. The sightelines coming out there are not
great. So, for that reason, I am very concerned about the children and what is the speed limit on that cute little road going to be? Because I'm here to tell you, nobody is going to be able to move coming out
of that road. Somebody's going to get killed. And my other concern, you have the Kturn spot for the fire department. How about those school buses? Where are they going to go and where are they going to turn around? Thank you.
Thank you, ma'am. Any other comments? Seeing none, I'm going to make a motion that we close public commentary. Mr. Chairman, to close, I'd like to suggest that we ask Mr. O'Shea to submit his uh comments that he
wrote down but wasn't able to give in full to the uh board so that we could read them. I appreciate that, Mr. Quill, but as Mr. Alto seems to be running a meeting with an IR, I declined to do so. Thank you. Okay, you have a motion to close. I move to close.
Get a second. Second. All in favor? I make proceed with your Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Oh, is this one working? Okay, perfect. Um, thank you very much. And we will keep this um brief. Thank you. We really do appreciate the
extension of time um that the board has granted to get us to this point this evening. Just in brief summary, we are again seeking a minor subdivision and preliminary site plan approval only in connection with this 50unit 100% affordable housing development. Um we
did hear the thoughtful comments from both the board and the members of the public this evening and as we previously discussed, we will be back before this board for final site plan and um we certainly have some things to accomplish in that time which we would with any other application that is treated in this way. Um so we do appreciate those
comments. We did hear them. Um, we do have notes on them and we we will certainly address those that we uh reasonably can as part of our final site plan application. I did just want to for the record run through some conditions that I had written down um which I'm sure Mr. Warner has done as well, but
just for the benefit of the board. The applicant is agreeable to working with the planner on the facade of the rear of building 3 and in addition to that preparing a design report that addresses not only the redevelopment plan design standards but also those in the underlying ordinance that are not otherwise superseded by the
redevelopment plan. Um we will inquire with the housing authority about access for pedestrians and also the secondary access for emergency purposes. We will work with the municipality and the municipal engineer related to sidewalks that are offtracked in order to complete
the sidewalk um along Catch Road out to Hanover A. We will landscape and paint the hot box if we need to even have a hot box. That is something that we will confirm with the water department and we can certainly work with the board's planner on how that is accomplished as
well. And we will provide a fence for the boundary along lot 4 as was requested by the board's planner. Um, so with those conditions in place, we we do think that this application um, at least in our opinion, did a a a great job of
complying with the redevelopment plan that was provided for this particular property and that governs this property. Um, we again appreciate all the comments and will make adjustments prior to preliminary or prior to final site plan um, to deal with some of the comments
that we heard and hopefully present an even better project to the board at that time. So, we're we're thankful for your time this evening. We appreciate the extension and we're hopeful that you vote favorably on this application. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Warner. Are there any other stipulation conditions you want to
Certainly. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh the app the board will be voting on whether or not to approve the minor subdivision as well as the preliminary only major site plan
approval as well as the deviation uh from MLUL municipal land use law section 35 permitting proposed lot 6 to be a buildable lot that does not front directly on a public street. uh even though the redevelopment plan permits
that deviation. Uh that is the relief that the app that the board is being asked to grant. Uh in addition to that uh I'll assume unless you tell me otherwise if it's a motion to grant uh that it's with all the stipulated two conditions including those that Ms.
Maziac just set forth as well as compliance as I understood it with the requirements of the fire official in his report and the Southeast Mars County Utility Authority uh obligations set forth in their report. Uh as well as
uh this is the the additional request was made of the board uh to grant a 1year extension of the 190day deadline for filing and recording the minor subdivision deed for the reasons
stated. Uh in addition, I understand that the applicant is seeking all outside agency approvals, of course. Uh and we'll consider the potential extension of the sidewalk along Catch Road. Um we have
the hot box, the fire hydrant locations were in the fire department's report. And bear with me. Uh extension of milling and paving of the driveway as requested by the engineer I believe was stipulated to to the extent necessary subject to
his review and approval. Um we have the fence and I believe Miss Mazak covered virtually every one of them. rear work. Um, now the the if I maybe I didn't hear
it, but the improvement to the rear facade of the three buildings. You you said it. Okay. Uh, subject to the review and approval of our planner. They're so small. And I Mr. Warren, could you stop for a second because what I heard was one building. Are you going to look at all
three buildings? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Even better. The uh I was brought in the steps where I can, Mr. camera. But the the uh I think those were all all the conditions that were stipulated to buyer on behalf uh of the applicant. Certainly lighting
also downward uh uh uh lit uh residential cut offs on the street lights as proposed. So again, if it's a motion to grant uh I'll assume it's all the relief with all the stipulated two conditions that I just set forth. Okay. So, I'm going to open up to the board
for a motion uh one way or the other, a second, and then we'll go into deliberation, discussion. So, let's get a a motion to get this started. I'll forward that motion. I'll second it. But what what what is the motion? The motion is to approve with the
stipulations as discussed uh or outlined by uh our attorney. And we have a second by Miss Van Order. Yes. Okay. Hey, we're open for discussion. So, I'll I'll let it be a free flow. Anybody that wants to make a discussion,
start at this end and work our way down, or we could start at this end and work our way down, whatever's more comfortable. Mr. Chairman, I do think we owe it to the people who spent all night here to examine to to go to the county and ask them about whether that can be extended to Hanner Avenue. We have the engineers
opinion that says it won't work. It can be something that can be discussed during the final site plan. Um, but I think we owe it to really investigate the possibility um, from what I understand. And maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't work, but they've asked the question and we didn't
have a full answer for it. So, I'm thinking that we should at least approach the county and with that possibility and see what they have to say about it. Thank you, Mr. Benois. Mr. Quillin. Um well, in my view, the redevelopment plan does not really permit us to do
more than to vote up or down the the application that's been presented. And um the redevelopment plan specifies that the entrance will be on catch road. Now, I can understand an argument that that's not um that wasn't in the best interest
of the public. On the other hand, I have walked the property. I've walked the um out across the solar field. I've tried to walk up the hill uh pretty far. I've gone up to the upper um part of the um county buildings and to the building
that's nearest to where proposed building one is. As you go up the hill, that is a very steep slope going up from that proposed building one to the next build to the building that currently exists higher up on the hill. that would be in my view a very difficult uh place
to build a road and I think the county would think we were kind of nuts to be proposing that. Um but um regardless our charge is to vote up or down um this application and I think Mr. Warner said
if we voted it down based only on where we don't like the that we don't like where the driveway is in spite of the fact that the driveway is specified in the redevelopment plan that that would be extremely difficult to defend.
Thank you. So, um I I'm in favor of of this uh application and I think that it's a it's a good one overall. Thank you. Anyone else have comments? Oh, I'm sorry. It's okay. You can skip right over me.
I'm used to it. Um, again, I do want to uh thank everybody for coming out and it's 20 after 11 and I know some people have left. Um, I I totally understand too how many people I I live in Butterworth, so I lived there too for 43 years. I said
this the other night at the township committee meeting. Ra we raised our four kids there. Uh so many of the issues that you bring up are good ones and they're ones that we should consider and think about. um the place that we are now and I know to a lot of the residents
this feels like it was rushed and it came up and there wasn't a lot of input and there wasn't but there was behind the scenes and and again I've only been on since 2022 on the township committee but this whole this all happened way
back in 2012 and then continually um even before this particular um group came in um the LLC we had someone else prior to that. So it was constantly being talked about. That being said, I will also say I think he
left the the gentleman who said like do you know maybe not even the planning board but of course and the township committee. One of the things you've got to realize is that all of us just like you. We have kids. We've raised kids here. Of course we think about the kids.
When I drove Sussex Avenue all those years before there was a sidewalk and especially watched the Rabbitical College families walking with all these little kids, I thought, "Oh my god, how did there never be an accident here with these little kids like walking?" We got
that done. So, I know it's frustrating at times and there are people here thinking, you know, this is going to be put in our neighborhood. There's going to be a lot more traffic. Trust me, we are always looking to do what we can to make sure that the township is safe. We care very much about the residents and
the kids. I think um I forget who it was who came up and said about they wish they knew more about civics. I urge everybody learn more about civics and it takes a lot of time. the people in this room and the people who come out whether it's a planning board meeting or to the
township committee. We love that because you do care and you're taking the time and even if you come and you don't know much about the subject or what's happening, learn about it because then that will help us make better decisions. But again, if you have all the input
that we've had, this is a good plan for these 50 units, it could have been entirely different. So therefore, you know, I would vote to support it. Thank you, Mr. Rabbitz. It It's going to be hard to
top what uh Mayor Gerlia just just said. She just said it so eloquently. We we do deliberate on the township committee and we do deliberate here on the Deis on the planning board. We do care. We are every
one of us volunteers and residents of the township and we are looking out for not for his neighborhood or her neighborhood or any of their neighborhoods or my neighborhood. We're looking for the town and and what is in the best interest of of the taxpayers of
the town and how can we make the decisions, you know, the tough decisions that we need to make so we're not kicking the can down the road, you know, to another governing body or another planning board to, you know, clean up a mess that we did not take
care of. And if we don't go forward with this um 50 units of affordable housing, we are going to create such a mess for uh the township that it would we would be hated everywhere. This is a good
plan. I'm I am for it. I am completely sympathetic to all the concerns of the residents and as the mayor said, we need to hear from the residents. Um it's it makes us better at at what we do. And so I want to thank you for your passion and
commitment to coming out here today. U you know this is something that uh is is very serious and I know that you know in the fourth round we're going to see much more of this and and and the traffic uh
safety whatnot. And as it was explained at the township committee meeting, these things the state does not care about. We as as the municipality are charged with that. And as we move forward with every community that we build uh or redevelop
here, that becomes our responsibility. And we are looking out for you whether you're a Republican or you're a Democrat or you're independent. We up here. We are just Mars Township. Anyone else? Yeah, just just a quick comment. Um, so
as you've heard from from everyone up here, our authority is limited to up or down vote and as a result of that, given that this application is for preliminary approval, I'm inclined to give the yes vote on that. However, the applicant, I hope you listen carefully to some of the
comments which were very legitimate in terms of what might be considered going forward towards the final approval, particularly the comments about ingress and egress uh via handover avenue. That's not something that this planning board could take on. But I think those
are legitimate questions that you all could ask and and engage the county about. But as I said, my vote is yes on at this preliminary stage. But at the final stage, you're going to be held accountable in terms of what have you done since this meeting to see if there
are potentially some other um opportunities that could have been explored. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Then we're going to ask for a roll call. Need a motion. We have a motion and a second. That's okay.
Mr. Barrett. Yes. Order. Yes. Yes. Rabbit. Under the circumstances. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Thank you. Good luck, applicant. I think you've heard from the board. Um, good luck and hopefully when you come back, we'll see some modifications that we could uh feel good about.
I'm going to ask that we table the other legislative matters. It's on the agenda. I don't know if there is any report, but let's push it aside. And I'd like to open up the floor for public comments. We are still in session, so I'd ask you
if you do leave to leave quietly. Do we have any uh comments from the public on any other matter be from a planning board perspective? Seeing none, I'm Any comments? Yes, you I I this is my first time attending one of these meetings.
Would you come up to the microphone? Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were done. No, no, we're not done until everybody's done. I'm sorry. I I wouldn't have gotten up that way. Okay, go ahead. We have public comments. Your state your name and your
address. My name is Francina H. Sap Revan Sap and my address is 97 Catch Road. Mr. Warner, does this need to be a swore? No, this is just comments. Go right ahead, ma'am. All right. My comment is that I enjoyed
the meeting even though the lot I was learning because it was my first time and a lot of information I really listened to and a lot of comments that were made I did jot them down and I didn't have to repeat it because somebody answered it for me. But I
wanted to say that the housing situation is needed so very badly. My heart grieves when I see the young people who go to college and come home and can't find a place to stay because the rent is so high. They and
they can't get jobs that they want until they get some more experience where they could afford a house or rented house. They have to end up staying with mommy and daddy and mommy and daddy you want them to move but they where to go move. And so I was just pleased to hear what
was going on about the housing. Of course, there's a lot of other problems. I know you have to consider because I live on Catch Road and I see all the traffic especially around what 4:00 6:00. It's horrendous. But I feel that somehow
another if we put our heads together, you all are so smart. You can we can do something. And you know, we just pray over it cuz I'm a prayer warrior. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. I guess that's the end of it. Is there any other comments from the
public? Seeing none, I'm going to ask that we close the public commentary. So move. I'm going to ask for a motion to adjurnn. So move to adjurnn. I second. All in favor? I. Thank you. Thank you everyone.