I'd like to call to order the uh regular meeting of the bars Township Board of Adjustment for August 25th, 2025. A legal notices required by statute have been met and a statement certified in saying will be executed. Please join me in the pledge of allegiance
to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Yes. M. >> Yes, Mr. Chairman.
>> Mr. Goldberg >> here. >> Mr. Tractumber >> here. >> Mr. Williams >> here. >> Mr. Schustster >> here. >> Mr. Benoa >> here. >> Miss Simmons >> here. Mr. Woodford >> here. >> Miss Pada >> here. >> Mr. Ola >> here, >> Mr. Bush >> here, >> Miss Keller
>> here, >> Mr. Fishinger >> here, >> and I Sonia Santiago here. >> All right, first order is the uh approval of the minutes from February 24th, 2025. EV everybody read the minutes. Any questions about them? If not, I'll
entertain a motion to approve those minutes. Motion to approve. Do I have a second? Thank you. >> Second by All in favor? >> All in favor? >> I. >> Any opposed?
Next is a resolution for BA-11-25, Karen Bruce Seidman. >> Mr. Oler. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a memorializing resolution with respect to the application filed by Karen and Bruce Seidman who applied to the board for
permission to install an 8ft high deer fence in the front, side and rear yards where only a three and a half foot high fence is permitted in the front yard and 6' high fence is permitted in the side and rear yards. That property is uh located at 54 schoolhouse lane in the
RA130 zone. and for the reasons set forth in the resolution, uh, the application was conditionally granted. >> Okay. Board members, any comment on the resolution? If not, I'll entertain a motion to approve the resolution.
>> I'll move it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Where did the feedback come from? It's >> ready counter. >> Mr. Chenberg resolution.
>> Oh yes. Yes. >> MARA. >> Yes. >> Mr. Schustster. >> Yes. >> Mr. Benois. >> Yes. >> Mr. M is not here. Mr. Warfare. >> Yes. >> So move.
>> Okay. Next is public hearings. First one uh was scheduled to be BA-17-23. Um Michael Euing, Mr. Oler. >> So u Mr. Chairman, we received uh some communication from one of the objectors
attorneys who um unexpectedly was not going to be available this evening. And with Mr. Brady's consent, we are adjourning that matter from uh from tonight till September 29th. So, for purposes of uh anyone in the public here
for the Michael Ewing application, which is 40 Spring Brook Road, that application is not being heard this evening. It will instead be heard on September 29th at 700 p.m. in this room without any further notices from the applicants. >> Okay.
Next, we have BA-10-25. Uh Jason and Elena Burke, Miss Santiago. >> Yes, Mr. Chairman. This is D8-1025 Jason and Elena Burke block 253 lot 343
Lord William Penn Drive in the RA130 zone for section C. Applicant proposes installation of a pavilion that will contain a bathroom where no portion of an accessory structure shall be used for living quarters.
>> Okay, Mr. Ol, can you explain what we're doing here tonight with this? So yes, Mr. Chairman, as I think we're about to hear from Mr. Brady, the applicant's not really asking for any variance relief. It's just that the zoning officer did not issue the permit because of the
appearance of the potential for um residential use in in that accessory structure. >> I'm not sure what relate that exactly fits into. >> Can you turn your mic on, Dave? Please. Yeah, push that button. Sorry. >> Thank you. >> There you go. I'm not sure what box that
fits into exactly. That's >> That's correct. All right. I I think it's more of a section A appeal. Right. So that you're asking the board to um to instruct the zoning officer to issue the permit. >> Okay. >> Right. So why don't we hear that
testimony and then we can we're discussing A and B versus >> you think it's B. >> B is the interpretation. But I think this is because it is directly the zoning officer. I think >> yeah because he issued an order saying no permit. Right. So my clarification was that he issued an order saying that
there would be no release. >> Right. Yes. >> And so the board does have the authority under section A to grant. >> Right. That's what I would think. Okay. So we'll deal with it that way. >> I know for the record I provided proof of notice and publication.
>> Yes, you did. It was uh I I reviewed the notice. It was in proper form. Um, it was published timely and served by certified mail timely. So, the board has jurisdiction. Um, for the record, Mr. Chairman, David Brady of the Brady and Coral on behalf of the applicant. Uh,
the applicants are Jason and Elena Burke. Uh, they own and reside at the property at 43 Lord William Penn Drive. That's block 253, lot three. Uh that property is in the RA
130 zone which requires slightly over 130,000 square ft for a minimum lot and we exceed that slightly here. We've got 3.3 acres. As I said, there's a they reside there. There's a single family house there. And as I set forth in the
application that we filed in late 2024, they applied for permits to build a pool and a cabana. The permit was issued for the pool which in fact has been just about constructed and Mr. Kirk can talk about that. But the zoning officer
denied the zoning permit for the cabana. Uh the denial sites section 95-36 capital A 3 which provides that no portion of any accessory structure shall
be used for sleeping quarters. Um, I only have uh one witness tonight, which is Mr. Burke. I do have two exhibits that I'd like to hand in. They are um kind of slightly blown up versions of what the board received with the
package. The first, which I think will be A1, is a blowup with a highlight, yellow highlight um of the grading and soil plan that was submitted. The second one is a blow up of two pages of the
architectural plans that were submitted. Again, with yellow highlighting, kind of make it a little easier for the board to see certain things. May I'll just hand them both out. >> Thank you. Thank you.
This is a two. >> Thanks. >> Feel like a teacher. teacher. >> Yeah. >> If uh Mr. Chairman, if we can swear in Mr. B will you please stand, raise your right hand. You the testimony you will
give to this board will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> Thank you. And for the record, would you state your full name? >> Jason. >> Thank you, Mr. B. >> Mr. Burke, you just heard me explain a little about the application to the board. just confirm for the board uh
that you own the property that you reside there. Who you reside there with? >> That is correct. I reside there with my wife Lena Park and her two children, Alex. >> And when did you purchase the property? >> Uh April of 2026.
>> Um and when you purchased the property, did it have a pool or other amenities in the backyard? >> No, it did not. And in 2024, did you make application uh to the zoning officer and to the building department with regard to construction? >> Yes, we did.
>> I'll show you what's been marked as A1. >> Is that the plan that was submitted for the pool? >> Yes. >> Okay. And if you would explain to the board, I've highlighted something that's called proposed structure. Is that in fact the proposed cabana? Yes.
>> Okay. Uh, and with regard to the pool and the patio and the proposed structure, has any of that been constructed as of today? >> Yes, the pool has been constructed and the patio immediately surrounding it has been constructed. >> The uh proposed structure, which is the
cabana, has not been constructed yet. No, >> that was because the zoning officer denied the zoning permit. >> That's correct. I'm going to show you what's been marked as A2 which is two pages of the
architectural plan. That plan in fact what you submitted to the uh township for approval. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And looking at the first page on the left hand side it says foundation plan. Um or excuse me on the right hand side it says foundation plan. How big is
the entire structure of the >> 28 by 18. And is it all open? >> Uh, no. >> Okay. Is there a section that is proposed to be enclosed? >> Yes. >> How big is that on the exterior?
>> 8 by 18. >> Okay. Uh, on the left hand side of the plan, it shows um some details of the enclosed portion of the cabana. What are those two rooms going to be
used? Uh there's a toilet area and a storage area. >> And how big is the storage area shown on the plan? >> It's 7 by 9 and a half. >> Uh and the toilet area, how many fixtures does that have? >> It has a toilet and a sink. >> And no shower?
>> No shower. >> Is there an is there a shower in fact planned for the uh cabana? >> There's an outdoor shower plan. >> And how big is the toilet area? >> 7 by seven. Do you plan to have any heat in the cabana?
>> No, we do not. >> Uh, do you plan to have anybody reside in the cabana? >> Absolutely not. Do >> you plan to have anybody uh sleep or use the cabana as living quarters or sleeping? >> Absolutely not. Uh if this I represent boards in
addition to representing applicants. If this board has a concern or my boards might have that if you sold the property, somebody buying it might not understand uh that this area is not supposed to be used for sleeping or for living. Do you have any objection to placing in your
chain of title a deed that makes it clear that this is restricted to uh storage and toilet area in Nevada only? >> No. No problem. >> I have no further questions. Mr.
>> I do not have any questions. Any other members of the board have any questions? >> Any of the board professionals have any questions? So for the proposed structure it was denied for the use by officer but
was the impervious coverage calculated into the design of the sequence with the approval of the pool. What did the the let me find where it said that in the denial of relief signed by Mr.
Hansen says the lot is located in the RA 130 single family zone. It should be the pool and pavilion are located in the building envelope created and setbacks are conforming to the bulk requirements. The reason for the denial is the installation of the bathroom in the
accessory building. So, so we understand that debate is compliant on the other aspect as and then the plan shows roof leaders drains from the proposed structure ting. So, I just wanted
my understanding that site was fully designed for the full improvement. >> Okay. And then the zoning officer's decision was uh really related to just specifically the inhabitants concern. >> So there's no need >> there's no additional drywall to be
added for that structure at all. >> No no drainage calculations necessary >> already included in the approved. >> All right. Great. Thank you. Any other board members with any questions? Mr. Any questions? >> I have no questions. >> Any members of the public have any
questions of this witness? Seeing none, hearing none, close the public portion. Any member of the public have any comments on this application? If so, please come forward. Seeing none, hearing none, close the public portions.
Board members, what are your thoughts? Mr. Chairman, I also want to note that the entrance to the bath and should call a half bath is from the exterior, >> right? >> Not from the interior. So it would be pretty unlikely that someone would have to be using that for residence. So I
have no problem with the issue. I would I would support the application. >> I I have no problem whatsoever with the issue. I think especially let's this uh bathroom door opening to the outside but with the statement there's not going to be any heating and with the deed
restriction you checked all the boxes. Uh so I would be in favor of this. Can I uh do you have a comment from board members? >> And so just Mr. just tell us how exactly where the resolution should be. Uh
>> well the the um motion from the board would be uh for uh a resolution for the u permit to be issued through the building department. >> Okay. >> So it's basically an instruction to issue a permit.
>> All right. That understood. >> I'll move that. >> All right. Thank you. Is that a second? >> Second. >> All right, this bridge to clarify, you you won't need a supporting letter out of the zoning officer. We we have changed with Mr.
Hansen's retirement. You won't need corroboration in a letter from zoning >> cooperation in terms of >> of understanding that this that this decision was rendered. >> Oh, you mean you don't want to wait a month issue? Do do you need the zoning
officer and really me to verify that we've received this direction and we provide zoning concurrence >> or is that done by >> I don't think we need that right >> the resolution is the zoning >> I think the resolution is going to
instruct the permit to be issued >> great thanks to make sure >> does that mean we'll have to wait till the resolution I'm thinking is trying to beat the frost. >> So if you're trying to beat the frost, is there like are they I don't know if
you heard that question to wait for the resolution. >> There's no objection >> to issue it. >> Yeah. And I'll corroborate to saying that, but those >> Okay. And I'll do the deed restriction then and get it over to you Rich as soon as I can. So >> Okay, great. >> That answered my question.
>> Okay. >> Thank you. >> All right. So they don't have to wait the 45 days which >> Oh, that's up to them. Right. So her question is waiting the 45 days on an appeal period. That's you proceed at
your own risk. Right. >> So if someone were to appeal take it to court and win an appeal, you would have to take it down if they want. >> I explained that before we came in. >> Okay. Okay. >> All right. >> Mr. Goldberg. >> Yes.
>> Mr. Trackctenberg. >> Yes. Mr. Williams, >> yes. >> Mr. Schustster, >> yes. >> Mr. Benois, >> yes. >> Miss Simmons, >> yes. >> Mr. Wood, >> yes. So, move. >> Thank you everyone. >> Thank you. >> Alexander
[Laughter] do that. No. >> Uh, next matter is BA-14-25 Alexander Rose. Miss Santiago. >> Yes, Mr. Chairman. This is uh BA-14-25
Alexander Rose. >> Block 9502, lot 4146 Normandy Heights Road in the RA25 zone for section C. Applicant proposes installation of a 12x20 shed creating a combined sideyard setback of 51 ft where 60 ft is
required. Applicant will also seek a variance for an accessory structure in the front yard where no accessory structure is allowed and multiple accessory structures where only one structure is allowed. >> So Mr. Rose, do you have any other
witnesses this evening or just you? >> Okay. Would you stand and raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? And again, for the record, your full name, please. >> Okay, be seated. Thank you.
>> Okay, Mr. Rose, tell us about this application. What do you propose to do? Uh I'm looking to obtain a shed that's 12 ft in the backyard. Um and doing so
from that you are only allowed one street >> like a swing set and a zero that was on property when I first >> when did you purchase the property? 20 September 2020
>> and um why don't you describe the overall property for us? >> I have some pictures. >> Sure. >> Thank you. >> Is it just one picture or multiples? >> What?
>> Oh, multiples. >> Four pictures. Um brief overview is >> let's wait get the pictures out and get back to the microphone. >> Thank you. >> So we're going to mark them all separately. >> Yeah. Because I think he's going to talk
about separately. So let's >> separately. Okay. >> Yeah. Separate markings. >> Okay. All right. So Mr. Rose, we're going to mark these into evidence. All right. But we'll take one at a time as you bring them up. First one will be A1. But which one are you going with first?
>> Um I guess picture of the projected shed 12 by 20, but this is what it should look like. Um, we're going through details of what exactly are shed >> and that is the and this picture shows
the proposed location for the shed. >> Incorrect. That's just what the shed will look like, not my property. >> Okay. >> So, that's basically is that a simulation or is that actually a picture of it someplace else? >> It's from a um company that I'm looking to purchase it from. Could they provide
the photo? That'll give you the idea of what look like. >> Okay. So, that's A1 and A2 will be what? >> Um, A2 is going to be uh the picture of the backyard. Um, the key thing in here is in the right side in the middle,
you'll see the swing set. Um, and then to the left where there's a few piece um pieces of logs, that's where the proposed location of the shone would be. This is in my backyard facing the rear
of my property from my house. >> I'm sorry. Is that your house in the picture, Tim? >> No, incorrect. I'm standing at the back of my house um facing the rear of my property. >> So, that's somebody else's house. >> Correct. >> Okay. What's the little structure over on the far right side of the that part
of the swing set? Uh >> no, that's a toy. as my daughter's toy play house. >> Okay. And that gets moved up from place to place. >> Yeah, that's just a plastic >> box. Sorry. >> If you could um just clarify um where
those logs are, how far away from those logs would the shed be coming out because I see that tree that's overhanging it. >> Yeah. So, um well, the trees that are overhanging it would be trimmed um make space. Um but also the left side of the
the far left of this image is the left side of the property which uh Santiago also notified me that my restrictions are 35 ft from the side um or which it will be um more than 35 ft in from the
side. And I guess to add to that, the rear, which is just past the trees, um I believe it's surveys there, it's a couple hundred feet from this structure. So well in um
>> Okay. So So the survey that you marked up, I guess that that you handed out shows the proposed shed at 25 ft. >> So you're saying it'll be 35 ft. >> I'm sorry. This >> 25 >> the side variance. by the side limit is
25. So it'll be 25 from the side at least. Yes. >> Okay. And can you tell us um when did you take did you take the picture? >> Yes. There's a picture I took. >> When was that? >> Two days ago. [Music]
Um the next one they could just uh it's up my garden which has a garden check and I hold just to >> and that's on the far right of your property. >> This is on the far right of the property. Um again greater than 25 ft of
the zooms. I'm not looking to adjust any any of those. >> And and same question, when did you take this? >> Uh same day, two days ago. [Applause] >> Is there any screening between the uh garden shed and the next door neighbor's
property? >> Any screening? In other words, bushes or anything that hides that uh >> fence >> prevents the neighbors just from looking over and seeing the shed. >> Uh my neighbor did put up a fence um and there are some natural trees as you see
in the picture there on the border along with recovery. >> Okay. And how large is that garden shed? >> Uh it's four by uh 4T by 5T.
And how far is the shed from the sideyard? >> Um, greater than 25 ft. I wrote down exactly >> 32. >> 32.6. [Laughter]
>> Once or twice. Once or twice. So, why do you uh want this proposed shed? >> Uh, so right now I don't have enough room. I I it's two and a uh 2.1 acres. I mow my own lawn. I have a bunch of lawn equipment. um that I'd like to store in
the shed to get it out of my garage in the garage and bikes my children and I and just you know things you store in our shed sports equipment
4 and a half turn five so sports are ramping up >> is there going to be anything else in the shed one of the things. This is a beautiful shed, by the way. I don't want my sister to see it because she's always asking me to build a she shed in my backyard. Right. So, is there anything else that's going inside the shed or is
it going to be completely empty for storage only? >> It's just um just a frame and a floor just to put stuff in. >> Why don't you tell us about this one? >> The last one is of my front yard. Um, and up in the top, oh, middle of the
page on the left side, you can see the gazebo that was originally there when I purchased the um, house. And obviously, it's a structure. Um, so, >> so is this looking from the front of your house towards the street?
>> Correct. Yes. >> Oh, it's Well, so it's it's from Exactly. It's from the left side of my house is where I'm standing looking up. Um, so my house is I guess probably one/ird of the right
side of the picture. >> So you can see the gazebo next to those trucks behind it. >> It's noted on the diagram. >> Yeah. Good. >> And for the for the record, what what's the dog's name?
>> The dog's name is George. >> Is it your dog? >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> That's a straight straight license. >> Want to check the license? >> It looks like the property slopes up to the road there. So, is that gazebo even
visible from the roadway? No, there's >> just tuck. >> Yeah, you can't even see almost. >> I mean, aside from the roof, it's just still five just very simple. >> And when was this picture taken?
>> Same day, two days ago. >> I guess the same other question. It's within the bounds of the side. >> Um, right. So, let me I just want to clarify for the board because we haven't gotten there yet with you, but um there the variances here are for a combined
sideyard, right, of uh 51 ft because you take the 26 feet from the gazebo and the 25 ft from the proposed shed. So, you end up with 51 feet for combined sideyard and 60 feet is what's required. So, you have a combined sideyard
variance. Um, the gazebo is in the front yard. So, that's a variance to maintain the gazebo in the front yard. And there are with the shed, there will be four accessory structures on the property where one is permitted. Okay.
>> Okay. Does the fire pit count as an accessory structure? Not really. >> No. >> No. >> Is it built in? >> No. It's just not permanent. >> So, Mr. clarification.
>> So, he he came here for a variance uh to put up the shed. But he needs a variance in order to keep the gazebo uh on the property. >> Well, you know, the we don't know how old the gazebo is. He can't tell you that either, right? Because it was it predated you. >> Um you could probably tell it. Did you
install the garden shed? Yes, I did. >> Okay. So, sometime after September of 2020, you installed the jump the jungle gym. >> Yes. Correct. >> All right. So, you know, those would have required permits, right, for
additional accessory structures. Um, so we would do all that tonight. If you grant this, you would be granting the four accessory structures. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Yeah, the swing set eventually will disappear. We know that out grow it. >> Uh and uh son of my daughter >> the garden shed. I think it is just tools in there. >> Yeah, just soil and tools.
>> Okay. Instead of keeping them in the driveway like I do. >> It's uh you see on the survey the distance from the the garage to the garden is far. So >> and back and forth. It's just a quick route. >> And how did you pick this location for
the proposed shed? Why don't you >> um just backyard in the nice open area. It's level, flat, and uh just a good location. >> Okay. And um what's along the uh that
sideyard that is closest to? Is there trees along there, bushes? What's there >> on the the last exhibit here? That this yard, the sideyard? No, the sideyard. Um, not the last exhibit, but the, uh, I think it's S2, >> the second one. Yeah.
>> Um, which you say that the, uh, you say that the shed's going to be 25 ft off the property line, >> correct? >> That property line. What kind of bushes and what kind of trees are along there? >> So, one of my neighbors, cuz it intersects um, two different properties. The White House, you can kind of see
through the tree, is the one property, and then Miss Alone is on the uh, the near side. Um, she has a fence fence was I don't one on her property from a long time ago. It's probably I don't know how long how tall it is. She
has a fence there with some natural shrubs and bushes. And then the White House they have um green giant arborites that they put a whole row of. So they have trees that they just planted on their property line and then Miss Belone
has a short fence and then other shrubs. >> Okay. You can kind of see the shruts are really small though. >> And that that photo is oriented to the rear as opposed to your side. So to the
east. >> This photo is what we were just talking about. >> Yeah. >> Yes. It's straight straight towards where the sun rises. So, so be so from the survey behind the garden and the jungle gym exists
>> an existing mature vegetated propert that's not open. >> No, that's all like a forest. You can see all the trees in the picture. >> So, do you do you share a drive? Do you share a driveway? Uh we have an easement on from Normandy Heights Road and then
it connects down to >> Okay. >> But it's on the complete opposite side. It's on the front side. >> Right. Right. >> There's no uh >> So this this location you presently
selected is probably the best possible location for this shed. >> Nowhere near any easements. And yeah, it's it's a perfect location. >> Thank you. >> Board members, any other questions? No.
>> Board professionals, any questions? Members of the public, any questions? If not, come up. If so, come up to the microphone, state your name, address, and then you can state your question. And we're only doing questions now. Comments are later.
Just questions. No comments. >> Just questions at the moment. Then then comments will come later. >> Probably in about 30 seconds. >> Questions. >> Uh my name is Peter Traman. I am >> You spell Thank you. Can you spell your last name, please?
>> T R I E S T M M. I live at 48 Normandy Heights Road just to the um south I think south of um Mr. Rose
and um on the right side of his house. >> So you're on the other side of the garden? >> Yes, next to the garden. >> On that side? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Um uh Mr. Rose, how um how tall is the um
uh the house, the shed, and um what is the wall height and what is the roof height that you've um placed in the um permit application? >> The shed will be under the 15t
maximum and the wall heights are 8 ft. >> The wall height is how high? The wall of Nishad is 8 feet. >> You put 12 feet in the application. >> And it's 12 feet long by 12 ft wide.
>> By 20 ft wide. >> 20 ft wide. >> Long or 20 ft wide, >> right? >> Yeah. But it also says it's 12t high. So would you say that >> that might include the roof? >> Well, no, that 15t with the roof. Yeah, the >> 12T
>> 12 ft gives 5T of or 3 ft of slope uh for the roof. So, I was going to ask if the um if the rendering of the shed is was done accurately. It shows that the door, presumably a 7 foot door, is
fairly close to the roof line when in fact it would be 12 ft high. As I said, this is just a sketch from the company that builds the sheds. Um, this exact, it's not exactly this one.
It's just a sketch. Um, show you guys a little image. Um, the roof will be under 15 ft, which is the code. Um, with a standard wall height of a 4x 8 foot piece of plywood. >> What condition would you say the gazebo
is in? uh structurally sound. >> Uh you wouldn't say it's rotten. >> Doesn't show black mold and um >> hasn't been painted and in the time that you've been at the uh
you've been living at the property. you know, into any other questions. Um the location where the shed is scheduled or is shown on the survey to be placed uh is that next to the old
Ricardi brothers or Ricardi house that burned down a couple years ago and is currently uh uh demolished. >> No, that is 44 Normandy Heights Road, which is as you see on my survey
to the front yard. my two neighbors, Margaret Palones and Mr. >> I thought you shared a common um border with the Ricardi house and that
the um your driveway was um by easement with the Ricardi house 44. I'm sorry. >> I see.
>> Okay. Yeah, you're behind that. I don't have any other questions. I do have comments that I would like to make at the appropriate time. >> Okay. Don't go too far. Great. Just saying. Any other members of the public with questions of this witness?
If not, close the public session for questioning and open the public session for comments. Now you have to be sworn. >> Would you raise your right hand? You'd have to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that any statements you make to this board be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do.
>> Thank you. Uh, I brought a statement in opposition to Alex Rose's application for variances and I also um have some photos that I would like to put into evidence.
>> Sure. >> Okay. Why don't you bring the photos up first so we can get them marked? How many copies do you have of this? Just this just the one. >> Um there's two of some of them and one of others. >> Okay.
>> Do you have a set for yourself? >> I I don't need it. That's okay. >> All right. Because I'm what I'm going I'm going to mark these as you start to talk about. So that's a duplicate. I've I've marked I've marked them um in the statement in opposition. It it it references the numbers that are marked
on them now. >> Yeah. So that's a duplicate, right? I just want to create one package. So, we're going to use 01 01 a 02 O2 A
another O2, right? So, that's a duplicate. >> 2A is a duplicate, right? >> How many of these over here? >> This one's not marked. Are you going to refer to that? >> No, I don't think so.
>> Take that one with you then. >> Yes. >> Okay. All right. So, I'm going to share these with the board and as you discuss what they are, let's refer to them how you mark them. Okay. From the microphone, please. >> Okay. Um, should I give the statement
proposition? I do have 12 copies of the Yeah, 12 copies. >> You can just read it in. You can read it. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> I take one. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Then you just read have an extra one. >> Okay. All right. It's fine. You can
leave them for the I'll take one. >> Yeah, I'll take them. >> Why don't you come up and All right. Um, >> all right. I live at 48 Normandy Heights Road immediately to the south of the applicant's property. I oppose the application because the requested relief
would intensify existing nonconformities. Um, >> sorry, can you just pull that microphone closer to your mouth? Thank you. Great. Thank you. >> I oppose the application because the requested relief would intensify
existing nonconformities and would be contrary to the township zoning ordinance and the purposes of zoning under uh New Jersey's municipal land use law. The first objection is the sideyard nonconformity.
Under the schedule of area bulk and yard requirements for the RA25 single family residential zone, the minimum sideyards are 25 ft from one side and 60 ft for both sides. The application seeks a combined sideyard of
51 ft which fails to meet the 60oot standard. It uh also doesn't take into account the uh proximity of the gazebo which is um
also 25 ft from one sideyard from mine. The um the proposed shed is listed as being 12t by 20 ft by 15 ft high per his application, Mr. Rose's application.
The garden shed is already >> I'm sorry to stop you there, but I don't see where it says 15 feet high. The ordinance does allow 15 feet for an accessory structure, but his application for the height indicates 13 feet, no more than 15, right? So be compliant
with respect to height. >> I think it says 13t 15t with the peak of the roof or something like that. >> I agree with Mr. Ol. It says 13 ft. No more than 15, right? And that's compliant. >> That is compliant. Yes, that counts, you
know, given everything else heard from the applicant, that that accounts for the PE, >> right? >> Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. >> Okay. Uh the garden shed has already been erected without permit close to my sideline that's shown in the photo.
Um the gazebo already erected without permit. um is excuse me often. >> Uh how long have you lived in that your current residence? >> U 6 years. >> Okay. And the gaz was the gazebo there when you moved in. >> The gazebo was there.
>> Okay. >> It's quite rotten and uh a hazard in my opinion and I'm in the business of restoring architectural woodwork and have done quite a bit of construction. Um
I'm familiar with it. That's That's a hazard. There are four beehives that are rack that are um placed less than 10 ft from the front street. Um there's bees that could be a hazard to people walking
by. Um the front yard is not supposed to have a structure like beehives in it. the um accessory structures. The second objection is the accessory structures in the front yard are prohibited. The ordinance provides that accessory
structures may be erected only in the side or rear yard and shall not be closer to the street line than the greater of the minimum required front yard or the actual front yard setback. Recreation facilities are also barred
from front yards. The applicant maintains and seeks to legalize accessories accessory structures in the front yard, including gazebo situated less than 26 ft from the property line and beehive boxes and stands immediately adjacent to the
street frontage. These are inconsistent with statute 95-36. Whether the beehives um and their stands are treated as accessory structures or as an accessory use, the placement of the front yard violates 95-36's
location limits and therefore requires variance relief which has not been requested in this permit for a variance or application for variance. Third point is that there are multiple structures which are compounding nonconformities.
The township limits one principal structure per lot per section 95-33. The accessory structures are regulated by coverage and placement not placed in front yards. To the extent the application seeks relief to allow
multiple accessory installation in prohibited locations, the relief would compound the nonconformities rather than advance conformity with the zone plan. Fourth uh point is that existing
nonconformities should not be expanded. Town the township code restricts enlarging, extending or exacerbating non-conforming conditions and makes clear that extending a pre-existing non-conforming setback requires variance relief. The application would intensify
front yard and sideyard deviations instead of reducing them contrary to section 95-29. and 95-50. The exceptionally large shed with
windows, doors, uh, 240 square feet by 15 ft high could facilitate illegal residential use and may be mischaracterized by the applicant. Judging from the photo u presented in his testimony,
the um, AML UL negative criteria are not met. No variance may be granted unless it can be done without substantial detriment to the public good and without substantially impairing the intent and purpose of the zone plan and zoning
ordinance. Here allowing front yard accessory structures and a reduced combined sideyard undermines the ordinance's standards for openness along streets and adequate separation between homes in the RA25 district.
The applicant has a substantial amount of land with over two acres and could easily fit everything everything within their uh required setbacks. This property is is has 92,000 square feet
according to the applicants uh application. Uh number six, the site conditions and impacts. I submitted the photos um which have been marked into evidence um
of um exhibit 01 shows a photo of beehives near the front street. Exhibit 02 uh shows photos of the shed within 20 well 26 feet of my property line. Um
actually it's 32 feet according to the surveyor. Um, but it's a trashy I don't know. He's got everything pushed up against my uh property and it's pretty trashy looking. Uh, exhibit 03, a
photo showing the gazebo location in the front yard. Um, exhibit 04 is a wider view of front yard installations and screening. Um, okay. Then the seven, there's also a
pattern of nuisance conduct that I would like to mention. Separately from zoning, my experience includes the neighbor cutting up trees and throwing debris onto my property and making repeated unfounded police complaints. While the board does
not none of which were um acted upon by the police, while the board does not adjudicate these disputes, they underscore the ongoing disturbance associated with non-conforming front yard installations and the importance of adhering to the township setback and
yard location rules. Uh my request for relief. I respectfully request that the board deny the variances for the reduced combined sideyard setback. Uh placement of accessory struct additional accessory structures in the front yard and any
other relief that would authorize multiple or expanded nonconforming installations. I request strict conditions requiring removal of the gazebo from the front yard, relocation of the beehives in any other installations out of the front
yard and into compliant side or rear yard locations and uh compliance with all setback coverage and sight triangle requirements going forward. Um I would like to put this statement in
opposition into the record. Uh I have left 12 copies on the desk there with the secretary. >> So I want to ask you a couple questions on your photographs because we didn't really identify them enough. So can you tell us what is uh what are we looking at in 01 please?
Oh 01 is showing the be beehives and 01a is showing the photo of beehives near the street frontage from the street and a closer up view of the beehives. >> Okay. And is that the applicant's home in the background?
>> Yes. >> And this picture was taken from the street. >> Yes. No, there's a there's a >> microphone. >> I mean, you could see that it's through the hedge. I have a full hedge. It's natural 8ft hedge. Wonder if any
picture has that. >> That's looking through the hedge. It's a little towering up. Yes, I do have these. Um they're behind that hedge and they're great with the environment. And >> give us that picture back. >> Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. Um, it's not a
permanent structure. They're just sitting under. >> Are there bees populating the the beehives? >> There is bees populating the state of New Jersey. >> Pardon? >> Yes, there are bees. >> Okay. >> Um,
now now in your testimony, you indicated that the um shed is within 20 ft of your property line and the survey >> 25 the survey shows the shed uh 32.6.
>> I I corrected that in my uh testimony or or in my um my objection. Initially, I thought it was 20 ft. That's what it seems like. The survey shows 32 feet 6 in. That could be. I haven't uh gone through there to measure it.
>> Is the fence between your property and his property yours or is your fence? >> Yes, it is. So, I just want to point out your fence is about four feet onto his property as you get towards Normandy Heights Road. >> That's what his surveyor shows. My
surveyor um shows something different. There are other markers, pre-existing markers to his survey being done. And uh uh the surveyor that I had uh engaged when I purchased title insurance
uh had the other markers that were there before. I don't know who's correct, who isn't. On one side it shows that >> when did you say you purchased your house? >> U in 2019. Uh this the survey markers that um are
on my property. On one side, it shows they're uh according to his surveyor, it shows that the survey the markers are uh three feet over onto my property further than they should be in the back in the rear of the property. And then at
the front, it shows that they're 4 feet off uh over onto his side. I don't know which surveyor is correct. the net land difference is virtually the same in terms of
uh his surveyor is showing that I'm a little bit encroaching in the front and then he's encroaching on my side and the back. That's >> Let me ask you a question. >> Do you have any problems with the swing
set? >> Uh no I don't. >> Okay, I can eliminate that. Would you like me to speak to the boundaries or >> Sure. Sure. That would be great. >> So the there's an iron bar found at 4T from the
point of the beginning for this survey. I'm referencing off of the submitted survey. That iron bar found would be consistent with the objector's point of beginning essentially on his survey most likely um and is in line
with the fence. So I think the fence was put in good faith in what he understood to be his property line. >> Right. >> Um as you reconcile through the deed the deed survey references uh there is a reference to the
debbooking page for lot 40 which is the objector's lot. So that was considered by by Lakeland surveying and preparing the survey. They also have reference to um other lots including the lot 39
and the subject lot as well as well as a survey that they prepared for lot 30 which is to the north rear closest to the proposed shed. So, if you look at that location, there's an iron pin, an iron pipe found and as
well as a rebar iron cap found with Lakeland on it. So, it would appear that Lakeland is reconciling with consistent information to a second survey they produced and had had noted a two and a half foot, you know, kind of tolerance in in the area and some of the errors.
So I think the what's in front of the board is for the board's consideration as certified by the by the surveyor that produced this boundary >> and for our application purposes. Um I would leave it as respectfully a private
dispute of title and >> reconiliation. No doubt we can we have no jurisdiction. >> Yeah. I I don't think I think what's presented here shows essentially a rec reconciliation by this surveyor of a best fit for this property based on other information in the area.
>> Right. >> Um >> the applicant filed multiple police complaints over the boundary difference and was told that it's not in their jurisdiction as well. It's >> not in their jurisdiction. That would be
superior court. Um, now we could move forward with this, order uh the applicant to remove the gazebo if it's in the condition you say it is. We could also tell them to move the proposed shed
over towards the garden and eliminate the second little shed. And nobody has a problem with the swing set. So, you could end up with a 12x 20 foot shed uh 25 ft off your property line. Would that be better or would you want to have it
over where it is? >> Um I think it should be over on, you know, the far side. um if it's going to be there, but um I I think that uh yeah, >> because he he could do that and the only
variance he'd be looking for is a swing set and that's usually like a no-brainer unless it's like over the way over the top and this one doesn't look way over the top. So, I mean, he could rearrange his plans and do that, but uh maybe the
two of you should talk uh take some time and talk to each other and see if you can go into a compromise. >> Yeah, I think also the the height of the thing is excessive. And I I do have a problem with that. Um
>> I'm sorry. The the height of which >> the height of the the new shed with windows and doors. >> I understand. uh by the zoning ordinance, but it's still a non-conforming um
Oh, you're saying it's it wouldn't be non-conforming if he moved it within the property bound >> be 25 ft off of your property line and be 15 ft tall. He could do this as of right without coming to this board. What the chairman
is saying is he could take down this gazebo, which sounds like it's going to take itself down perhaps someday, right? He could take his proposed shed and replace his garden shed, put it in that same location, and it would be 12 by 20 and 15 feet tall, and it'd be 25 ft off
your property line. And he could do that without coming here. >> Well, there's a 60 foot requirement. Um, >> combined >> for the >> No. >> Yeah. >> Combined. >> What do we have on the other side? >> Combine is measured from opposite. >> Yeah, we've got 54 feet on the left side. So he could be 25 feet off of your
property with a 12 by 20 shed that's 15t tall as of right without coming here. Right. That may not be >> if if the other structures were taken down. Um
>> well, if the gazebo were taken down and get variance for the gym, right, for the jungle gym, >> which this board has routinely done, especially since this one's in the middle of the yard, >> right? >> And I know we have to discuss the
beehives. Yes. >> Yeah, the beehives are for some conversation, I think. >> Yeah, we'll do it now. Why wait? >> Yeah. question. >> Why are they there?
>> Uh they are east facing where the sun hits. It's the best for the bees to um grow and pollinate the state. We are in a bee recession, I guess you might say. We're 65% of the population dying
rapidly. Um, I provide honey to my neighbors and family and friends, uh, whoever asks. And, uh, they are, there's no sidewalk at the
front of my house. It's road herb, apron, 8ft shrub that you could see in this picture. Um, not with glasses, but um, and you can see in his exhibit, he's sticking his hand through it, which, you know,
Um, >> how many feet off the road would you say they are? >> I can move them out. They're >> I'm just curious currently where they are now, are they 10 feet off the road? >> They're further than that. Um, probably 15 to 20, but I mean they're they're not permanent. They're just on
boxes trying to move in more feet. Um, >> I'd say they're 10 feet from the curb and I did not put my hand or even walk over the curb to take a picture. That that thing is very sparse and a lot of people go walking on the street there a lot. >> Yeah,
>> I can move back. >> Yeah, >> we have pl we have tons of neighbors that have beehives to be there's tons of neighbors. It's great for environment. Um >> I said it's not permanent. >> It's just like the location. >> Yeah, we don't have foot traffic as you
said as as I said there's no sidewalk even. It's um it's just a non >> Mr. Are the B has considered a structure? >> If they're not, then it's a moot point. >> You have to look at the definition of structures. I mean, it's like almost
anything's a structure, but it's not on a foundation, right? >> No. >> Yeah. It's just >> nonpermitted accessory use in the front yard, I think. Looks like it's on a cornhole. >> Yeah, I mean it's structure I think is
defined by the MLUL and it's a very wide ranging definition. Um where it could be anything above the ground, below the ground. Um, but I I would say that the um case law in general uh gives um it it
allows a municipality and a board a some leeway with regard to what what's a permitted accessory structure and you know whether whether something is customary. Um so it's not so much especially with residential uses and
property it's not so much exactly. Um, and I think typically in most cases something that is movable is often not considered to by the board. You know, something that's easily removable is not something that requires variance. >> Yeah. And these are basically on
pallets, right? Similar to a pallet. >> I will tell you the structure definition in part says a combination of materials to form a construction for occupancy, use or ornamentation, whether installed on, above, or below the surface. And
then it goes on with other examples. But so >> there is some flyway barrier which is some rough guidelines. I don't know if that's if it holds in the ordinance or not. Um it says that state guidelines recommend establishing at least 6' tall flyaway barrier which my shrubs would be
um with a honey beehive and is located uh no less than 10 ft from a property line. >> No less than 10 ft. >> Uh no. Yeah. So it has to be further than 10 ft away from a >> which would agree with what he's saying if it were 10 ft. I think it's more but
unless if that if you want to take that as >> and this uh eight 8 foot barrier is so the bees don't head in that direction. They just >> yeah they have a little B education. They do have a flight path just like planes do and they're all angled to the
south and toward obvious to the east which is not towards his property at all. It's right towards my dog in that one exhibit like that way. >> Towards the gazebo basically >> the opposite of the gazebo. Well, towards the gazebo, but towards my house that way, not, you know, straight down
the >> straight down the property line. >> Straight down the property line. Yeah. And up there it gets the morning sun and it's, you know, safe from anyone. There's no His house, you can see where his house is actually. It's, you know, right next to mine on the survey, which
is, I don't know, 4 300 ft away from these. You know, you're talking a football field away. I um would withdraw my objection if he kept the shed, the proposed shed where it is scheduled to be without a heating
system or bathroom or other uses to facilitate um living. >> Um and he were to remove the garden shed from uh my side of the property that's 20 32 feet 6 in away and pulls the
beehives down from the uh from the street. That shed that hedge that's supposedly impervious is probably 50% open. It's it's a sparse looking hedge. Um and that's and takes down the gazebo
which is an attractive nuisance. I have an 8-year-old daughter and uh I do have concerns that she could be playing around it and I think could collapse. >> How high is your fence on that side? >> U it's it's a pecket fence. It's u
>> it's six feet high. I don't think you're allowed to have fences in your front yard. >> I think you got a permit for it. >> You could you could have a front yard fence that's 3 and 1/2 ft. It's six feet. >> The posts are probably six feet. The
There are two The levels under three feet for the uh horizontals. And there's two of them. >> The rails. >> Yeah, the rails. We measure the panel height, not the post. >> Right. >> To be consistent. >> Right. So, it's the rail height. That's
what counts. >> The post height. So we'll have a we'll have like a nom nominal amount off the bottom >> right >> that's reasonable with the proper installation that'll vary based on right the field conditions >> and then we take the panel height for
that three and a half in the front yard. >> Okay. >> Per code. >> So the the fence itself would be three. >> Yeah. So the right the intent of of our office in in in interpreting that definition is that the panels that are con purchased when they're purchased at
a panel they can be easily offsp spec confirmed to be the right height. Right. >> Okay. >> Or otherwise if they're constructed they have to meet that interpretation. >> Right. >> How would you feel about taking the gazebo down?
>> I mean it's historic. I have a you know property it's been there for I don't really know how long it's >> you know I go on there and I sit on it's got a bench and a table I sit there and not threat to anyone came with the house it's kind of one of
those things you know it's nice it's not >> yes whoever whenever it was constructed >> how how old is the house >> what's that >> how old is the house >> 66 I restored the um carriage house at
Foster Field, my company, um that was in better condition than that gazebo is. And that was um partly 18th century. The gazebo's bad. >> Okay. Uh >> I like the way it looks. If it was
sound, it would be great. >> All right. Um Board members, any questions of this witness? No. Thank you. Any questions over here? Any other members of the public wish to ask any questions of this witness?
>> His comments comments. >> Yeah, but he testified, so they're subject to crossexamination. >> And do you have any questions? >> Questions? >> None of us >> counters.
Um, and we talked about the fees. not a permanent structure. Um, I can make sure it's 15 feet from the curb, which is, I believe, more than enough um, in terms of safety. Uh, the gazebo, like I said, it's a historic property.
It's very unique to this town. Um, the Ricardis, the late Ricardis houses next to us. Uh, their death anniversary just happened, actually. Um, you know, it's a historic area. Um, that came with a house that you probably knew when it was there. Um,
I, you know, request not to take it down. I fixed stuff as need be. Um, had no problem doing since it wasn't permitted. Perhaps an inspector, a house, a building inspector could inspect the house and see the condition
of it to see if it's a hazard or not. >> That's the last one. varnish that you know it's just >> Yeah. >> Let me ask you a question. Um in your um
exhibit four is that the bees um starting way in the background >> all the way back there. Yes. There's three small hives. I don't own a bee farm where there's hundreds of farm. There's just three. >> Four.
>> No, three. >> Picture shows four. three colonies. >> Okay. So, there's three colonies. >> Sorry. Let's try to be civil with each other and you don't you don't have to make comments like that. Um,
so there you were saying there's three uh hives there. Okay. >> What's the smaller one? I'm sorry. What's the smaller one then? The smaller box. That's the fourth box there. that can. >> Oh, that's a that's a usually put those
on as the colony grows. That's if you look at the roofs, those are colony. So, as the honey grows, you put another one on top. Those collect the honey. >> Okay. >> There's only three hives. I guess, you know, going to put that on top to
collect more honey or >> how how difficult is it is it to move the hives? >> No problem at all. I like I said, it's I think it's 15 ft, but if you want a few extra feet, I have no problem with that. It's safe. There's no one around. I probably see uh three people walk on
that curb a week, not even. >> How visible is the um gazebo from your property? >> I see it in the front. I see it in the front. I don't mind the way it looks. I'm just concerned about it being an attractive nuisance, that's all. Because it's in such poor condition.
>> Okay. So, that That's not our jurisdiction. >> Mr. Chairman, is that one of our issues? >> No, not really. >> We don't need to concern ourselves with >> Well, you know, he's asking for a variance to maintain four accessory structures. One may or may not be in
good enough shape. I mean, you could condition an approval on repairing the existing gazebo to say the township engineer satisfaction, right? So that he goes out there and he sees that it's structurally sound. He paints it, makes whatever repair might be needed so that
it can be maintained there. >> That's that you could do that. >> We don't know what that might take. >> Would be probably most appropriately to the standards of the construction code official to have pulled the permit for it if it was built today. >> Right. >> Right.
>> It would appear I looked at aerial imagery available to me dating back 10 years. It's clearly on the property at that 10 year mark. It looks like it predates it by another 10 plus years. >> So, it predates both the current
applicant and the objector times in their respective homes. >> What What estate was here before these houses were built? If anybody knows except for >> um I have old uh newspaper things. It was the Windmore family. They had an
apple orchard for the entire community including the Ricari house which is 44 44 46 48 >> right >> to give you a reference. Um so it was an apple orchard for the whole entire community back in the early days and the
Morristown flight um airport was just a flying field. They call it the flying field. >> Okay. I think that gazebo goes back a long way. >> Yeah, >> I have no problem with refurbishing it and keeping the history with it.
>> Would you be okay with that if he refurbished the gazebo to bring it up to construction standards? >> Yeah, then I could remain I have no problem with it. >> Okay. >> I would I would estimate also it's probably about 3540 years old, but it's never been painted and it's it's
suffered. >> Okay. >> It's not like it's old lumber that's sound. It's modern lumber that is not rot resistant. >> Can you move the beehive 25 ft off the side property line? >> Off the side.
>> Is it more than 25 now? >> Yeah. >> Okay. It's not on here. So, I don't know how far. >> It's from the front street. It's right up the street. >> I'm probably 50 feet from or maybe not 50, but like >> off the side from the side. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Um and from the front probably 15, but I could, you know, >> move it back another time. I'll do
another 5 ft. Yeah. Toward >> another 10 ft. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Anything else? >> Removal of the small shed. Um the small one that's near my my property.
>> Yeah. If you got a storage shed, I mean, you're coming out your back door, you're walking another 10 feet, 20 feet to pick up a hoe and walk over to the garden. >> It's I So, I did just build it, right? It's very structurally sound. It cost a
lot of money when I first moved in. Um >> I understand that, but you should have gotten the permit. >> I understand. I didn't. Yeah, >> I misread the things. It was under 100 square feet, so I thought I didn't need it, but that was my own, >> you know, my fault. The only reason they would have needed a permit is because of the number of accessory structures.
>> Correct. So, right based on the size of the structure, it would have been basically a small shed that wouldn't require a construction code permit. >> Right. >> Under that threshold in the foundation. So it was an oversight on the number of structures for the zoning code for
exciting >> similar to similarly I'd say to the the the decision to install the jungle gym >> right you'll learn as you become a homeowner and a father
um yeah I counter requesting to have the four variance for the four structures I'll comply with refurbishing the gazebo and moving the fees over a little bit. >> Um, and keeping the shed not near his
property at all, the new one. Um, it's on the far side proposed to see it. Um, >> Mr. Chairman, I think that sounds reasonable. >> Yeah, >> and the garden shed stays correct. The the little shed in the garden with the
garden shed stay conversation. Yeah, >> I thought that was going to be removed. We're not going to be adding additional accessories. >> When I when I proposed that possible removal, I was saying he could easily remove that shed and move the large shed over to your by your property line 25 ft
off of your property line with that larger shed. And I'm sure you want the larger shed further away from your property. >> I do want that, but I would also object to the additional accessory structure, which isn't necessary. So I would remove my objection to the gazebo.
>> Noted. >> Noted. Okay. >> Can you I have one last question on this that that garden shed. Can you describe what the landscape is between the garden shed and his property line? Is it buffered? >> Oh yeah. I mean there's 32 feet. Um you
can see it's a full garden and then there's this fence and then there's another six foot shrubs in between >> six foot high shrubs. And is that fence solid at that point? side there's like a you can see the beginning of the shrubs. So in the front yard there's, you know,
trees that go 60 ft up and then it comes over here and now there's these shrubs over here 6 ft high, you know, and there's other shrubs that go towards that. >> My u photo uh exhibit shows the garden, the small garden shed. It's pretty
unsightly >> and with so many buildings, it's just adding to them. Okay. Any other me are are you finished with your comments? >> I am. >> Any other members of the public with comments? Close the public session.
Board members, um, board professionals, any comments? Okay. Board members, >> what are you thinking, Mr. Ben? >> Sure. I'm thinking we had nice conversation between neighbors and we've sort of set
an agreement. Gentleman will refurbish the gazebo. Um the garden shed is small. There's plenty of foliage between the two properties. And the proposed shed, he agreed, could go over the other side. And of course, the jungle gym is standard. So, I would
propose that we just proceed with and he's going to move the the um beehives up to at least 15 ft. And I I think that's a good compromise. >> 25 ft >> off the off the street >> off the fence.
>> Yeah. I don't think >> Okay. Oh, the slope. >> I don't think he has to move the beehives, >> right? I mean, maybe 15t. >> Okay. I mean, he's not breaking any any rules by having the Vehaps where they are. >> It's not a
>> I would >> I would propose 15 ft >> 15. >> Okay. >> All right. question for the um the engineer just to clarify when you say you know the um building inspector can
come out and look at the gazebo and compare it to the existing if it was built today and if there's a wide disparity from that 40year-old gazebo is it a possibility that that it's it can't be brought up to current standards because they're so far apart and then the applicant is then forced to then
have to take it down I'm just trying to >> at this well at this point it'd be speculative in this room for any of us to app on its condition. He said it's in fair condition. He utilizes it. >> Right. >> Right. It's not falling down. >> The only opinion would be of the
construction code official if >> u essentially to pull a permit >> for the installation of it of the gazebo and therefore during those inspections it can be it can be issued to co. So, it's a it's really more of an
administrative process to pull it and as he's doing refurbishments for them to affirm that it's structurally sound, >> right? >> Not necessarily, I guess, to the structural UCCC standards today, but rather to it being structurally sound
that it can receive a CO. But, um, I'm speaking to an expertise that is not mine, but is the construction code. >> Construction. >> Take it with a grain of salt. >> Right. Okay. >> All right. So Joe, you're saying he should pull a permit for that? >> Yeah, might as well pull the permit so
then it's documented of where it especially if it if it gets adjusted in your refurbishment to cement its location. Um, and then the construction code official can opine as to the extent of the refurbishment being adequate for it to be a safe structure.
>> Okay. >> Yeah, you got it. Board members, any other comments? >> You just Yeah. You come through, my office is across from construction code. >> So when you go to file that, yeah, you come into engineering, speak to Aaron at our front desk and then we could discuss
it with construction code so they understand what the condition was. >> Speaking of like I know someone previous to me was um eating the frost. Um what's the timeline on those? It seems like getting the shed and then refurbishing, but can I do it in the spring or next year?
Well, there's there Mr. Why don't you explain the process there, Mr. Ol? >> So, there as you're hearing there's some conditions. Um, the town's going to verify that the conditions are satisfied
before they issue a permit for the uh construction of your new proposed shed. All right. So, one of the conditions will be to renovate the gazebo. Okay. Right. So, you're going to have to have that done. to find out what they
>> Mr. A clarification. Does the gazebo have to be completed in its entirety or as long as he's going through the process? >> Well, if the condition is to pull a permit and get a CO, then he's going to need the CO for the gazebo to pull the permit for the shed,
>> right? >> The gazebo gets repaired. >> But we also gave him the alternative that if it wasn't structurally sound, he could remove it. >> Oh, he could always remove it. Sure. Yeah. that that >> So, so he gets started on the shed because one of two things are going to happen. Either either he will bring it
up to code if it needs to be or it'll be demolished. Referring to the gazebo. >> So, I would tie I would tie the refurbishment of the gazebo to the CO on the shed. So, >> so there's going to be a condition to
close the permit on the shed. >> You have to refurbish the gazebo. The gazebo in itself will pull its own permit. >> So you can do them simultaneously. You just can't use the shed. >> But I would not my recommendation would be that both can be pulled simultaneously and don't and don't have
to be sequential gazebo then shed. >> Okay. >> Right. >> Okay. Great. >> As long as he's in in good faith working on both. >> Yes. >> Then he can satisfy the conditions in the end of both. >> And we closed that portion. >> We already closed that portion. Um, any
other comments from board members? >> No. >> If not, I'll entertain a motion. >> There was no electricity going to the chair, right? >> There's no electricity, right? Box. >> Just the box. >> If not, I'll entertain a motion.
>> Okay, Mr. Chairman, I'll propose that we pass this resolution with the conditions previously stated. >> Application. the application with the with the conditions previously stated. That would be um pulling the permit for
the gazebo as well as the shed at the same time, >> maintaining the garden shed, maintaining the playground, the gym. >> Well, you don't want them to maintain it because then we might want to take it down at some point. >> When you say maintain it can you mean it
can stay >> for the gazebo? >> No, no. When you say you maintain this these the uh >> Yeah, it can stay. The >> guard. >> Yeah, >> the guard tree can stay, >> right? >> Correct. >> And the swing set can stay. >> And swing set can stay. >> Right.
>> Correct. Um and then the beehive 15t from the curb. >> Property line. >> From the property line bounced around. >> All right. Do I have a second to that? Second. All right. Miss Santiago.
Mr. Goldberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Trackenberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Williams. >> Yes. >> Mr. Schuster. Yes. >> Mr. Benois. >> Yes. >> Miss Simmons. >> Yes. >> Mr. Wood. >> Yes. >> So move.
>> Okay. >> Okay. I'll have the resolution at the next meeting for you. Okay. >> Good luck. >> Okay. >> We want to take a minute break. We're going to take a 5m minute break and then we'll start the next application.
>> Mr. Goldber >> here. >> Mr. Trackenberg >> here. >> Mr. Williams >> here. >> Mr. Schuster >> here. >> Mr. Vois >> here. >> Miss Simmons >> here. >> Mr. Wiffer >> here. Mr. Oler >> here. >> Mr. Voch >> here. >> Miss Keller >> here. >> Mr. Fishinger
>> here. >> Miss Polara >> here. >> And Santiago here. >> Okay. >> Good evening. How you doing? >> Doing very well. For the record, Larry Tally on behalf of the applicants. It's nice to see everybody this evening. We appreciate you being here. I know end of
August is tough to get a quorum and and there's a fully constituted board like always in the township. So, we do appreciate it. the applicants very appreciative of it as well. Um, we're down to very limited testimony at this point, Mr. Chairman and members. So, I'd like to do is sort of remind the board quickly what we did in July at the
meeting about four and a half weeks ago and what we hope to do this evening. So, we commenced the application last month. As you may recall, Michael Tobia from the onset provided operational testimony. On behalf of the application, we introduced a PowerPoint deck, a multi- sheet deck, uh, showing existing
proposed conditions as well as renderings and other details about the property. And we went through our witness deck as well with our civil witness, with our architect, with our traffic engineer, and we even had a a little sidebar with the secondary operation witness, a member of the Brewan family, Matt Bruin, testified in
conjunction with Michael Tobia on operational support. Um, we concluded testimony of all those witnesses at that hearing at about 10:00. We left with some marching orders from the board members hoping for some plan supplements which we prepared and and filed. One of
those being a one sheet plan from Fred Stewart's office that was submitted a little over 10 days ago on the 14th. The second being a refu enclosure detail that was submitted the other day. We'll mark that shortly, Mr. Chairman, but we discussed as to what the refu enclosure detail composition would be. So, we have
a uh essentially a pad detail and an elevation detail of that. We've also got an updated sign diagram to show the board members because we talked about the sign being in the site triangle. So, we're showing the updated signage and we're going to confirm the location on the property line outside of the county
right of way and we're down to just planning testimony at this point. Michael Tobia, we've already sworn him in and qualified him as a licensed planner. I know the board knows him well and we did that at the prior hearing for the record. Um, tonight Michael will do essentially the cleanup testimony on those limited design updates that we've
got from the student engineering plan, show you the refuge enclosure, the sign detail, and then we're going to get into the planning proofs. We pretty much discussed everything including the event space, but we left open the full and final details as to how the events would
play out on the property day over day and in the evening hours. So, that's going to be the lion share, I think, of what you hear Mr. Tobia testify to shortly. Uh, and as usual, when we have a use variance case, we like to tee it up very neatly for this board to consider. We've got a proposed list of
conditions for the board to consider relative to an approval if the board were to act favorably in favor of the application that the applicant is self-imposing. Several of which we already discussed at the last public hearing as to start time, shutdown time, quantity of persons at events, things
like that. Uh, but Michael will walk you through that. We'll introduce that as an exhibit as well in the handout. this where we can sort of frame what the applicant uh is going to do to try to and successfully control use on this property because we do have D relief here uh and then go from there. Mr. Chairman, we expect we need about 20 to
30 minutes tops on direct testimony. At that point, we're going to conclude our direct. >> All right. Okay. >> Proceed. >> Thank you. >> So, hi everyone. Michael Tobia, the applicant's planning consultant. >> Michael, before you get too far, would you stand? Let me just swear you again.
I know it was last time. It's a new day. Would you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give to this board will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So, anyway, I'm the applicant's planning consultant testifying for the second time on this case um for the
Brewan family, many of whom are behind me a few rows back. Um so, as as Larry indicated, we uh revised the plan. >> So, before you get there, did the first meeting, did we talk about qualifications? I know you've been before this board many many times but we
we accepted the qualification as a planner really testify that I just want the record to be clear >> qualifier. Okay. Thank you. >> So yes we we did that. So um what after that meeting um we as Larry said we came up with a punch list of board requests
and concerns. We revised one sheet of the site plan dated August 4th of this year. I'm going to go through those changes with you quickly uh to show you we were uh paying attention and taking notes at the last hearing. Okay. So, >> this was submitted, Tommy, but if you
want to mark it for the record, just let us know. We'd be up to 82 if we marked this, but this was submitted >> outside of the 10day window. >> This is sheet three of six, right? And shows a revision date of 84 2025, >> correct? >> No, it was submitted as part of the application. Fine.
>> 10 days prior. >> Yes. Okay. >> Um so on this plan uh you'll see we made some changes to the parking calculation as to what was required and what is provided. Uh that news is good. Um we are now providing 72 spots. Um or I
strike that we're required to have 72 spots. We are providing 81 spots. We determined after a review of the plan no variance is necessary for parking. You'll recall we uh provided two electrical vehicles uh electrical
charging uh spots on the plan. They are entitled to parking credits. We added those to the tabulation. We made sure that the so-called optional retail area identified on the plans as a
paver courtyard and now existing in the field as a PA courtyard would be included within the calculations in case it was built out and enclosed as a building. Okay. When all that was said and done, um, as I said, we ended up
with 81 credited parking spaces with 72 required. Uh we did also, Mr. Chairman, at your suggestion, remove three parking stalls in front of the uh loading area
um so that we would not be blocking the loading area with parked cars. Those three stalls have been removed. I'm circling that area on the plan right now, pretty much dead center on the exhibit. Um, we have more on this in a moment,
but regarding that that dumpster area, we have put a roof over it. Was Mr. Rollers's request that we roof it as well as surround it and gate it. More on that in a moment. Um, we've decided to relocate the sign. And the sign um that
now exists on the site was determined shown here at the intersection of Paris Street and South Street was determined to be in the site triangle um looking southward can have a sign in the sight triangle. So we moved it and on this
plan it now shows it to be moved back 12 1/2 ft from the South Street right ofway. I'm circling that now. It's in the upper right of this exhibit. Um, we propose for it to be the same sign, same sign area, same copy. Okay. Uh, this
will give it a one foot setback off the front property line and a one foot set back off of the Pear Street uh property line as well. But by doing this, it's out of the sight triangle. We now show on this plan that site
triangle, a 425 foot dimension going both north and south along South Street. >> Just while you're on the subject of location of the sign, um where you've moved it to, you have that fencing right there. >> Yes.
>> Are we going to move the fencing back out of out of the fair street right away? >> That will that will probably be necessary, Mr. >> Well, I think we should move it right now. Uh, I think it should be moved out of the uh fair street right away just so we
don't have to clean that up later because I mean it looks like part of the fence goes into the rightway. >> So, and I'm getting to this in a moment. What we decided to do because much of the fence is in the right of way by about a foot. >> We thought we would petition the township committee for permission to
leave it there and we were going to make that a condition of approval. We're also going before that agency for permission to resurface Pear Street. So, we thought we two kill two kill two birds at one stone with one stone. If we don't
succeed there before the township committee, we're going to move the entirety of the fence out of that right away. >> Okay. Um there was concern from uh board members and Mr. Fishinger about directing
everybody to Paris Street um in entering and exit the prop exiting the property. There are now signs posted down in the vicinity of Whitney Avenue that say exit on Pear Street with an
arrow pointing toward Pear Street. Um our testimony has been that basically no one has ever used Whitney. Uh these signs will continue um to require that and those signs are shown um on the leg
of the site that that fronts on Whitney. Okay. Okay. So I promised you a couple of things later. Um submitted by Larry um to um the board uh the planning office
was this detail. We have to mark this one. >> We will have to mark this one. But this now shows a roof over the loading over the trash storage area. It's vented on the side. It's provided with hardy pank hardy plank siding. It's a little stone
water table at the bottom it bottom of it. It's pretty good trash enclosure. Okay. Pretty good looking. You want to mark that? >> Yes. So, I think Rich, we're up to A2. >> Yes, it's A2. >> A2 is a sheet prepared by Jose Studio. It's the repres
4.0 mark of today's date, August 25th. >> And I don't you have a copy of that? >> One printed copy of it. >> Let's use that one. Okay. So, while Larry is doing that, um, uh, I'm going to our next slide.
Okay. So, um, we have to move the sign. Okay. And this next slide is an illustration of how we'd like to relocate it. Uh the sign you see here is the are the identical dimensions of the
sign now out in the field. That sign's had three or four lives over the years with Glendale Florest. Um 4' n on the horizontal, 3'6 on its height. Inspired by the uh uh township buildings
here and at the police department, we thought we would do stone columns to decorate this a little bit more. We're asking the board for permission to do that. Um, and this sign will be placed, as I said, 12 and a half ft from the South Street right of way. Um, no change
in sign area or dimensions. And this we do have to make A3, right? >> Yeah, that's A3. >> So, what you see up on the monitor will be handed to Larry. He can mark it
A3. All right, please. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, um, at the last meeting, we, um, decided as a group >> that, uh, the main reasons we're here are for approval of the so-called event space and the coffee shop. We decided
with Mr. Roller's help and Miss Keller's help to declare both of these use variances, okay? Not an expansion of the old Glendale facility, but to be conservative and treat them as use variances. As you may recall, both are
going in existing buildings on the property. Um, one above what we call the home shop at the rear of the property. The other, which is the coffee shop up in the front building, which used to be called a boiler room. Let me just show
you those two. We're back to our um site plan exhibit. Um, so the proposal is to go up into the second floor of the building at the rear of the property um for our event space
and uh then go to the uh boiler building on the right of this exhibit. Extend off the back of that with a greenhouse and we're calling it a coffee shop. Remember what was explained last month was much of it's going to be retail space for the
sale of tropical plants. Just so happens we're going to have 20 seats in there for a coffee cafe kind of um setting where customers can come in, get a coffee, get a snack, go and do their um
uh their shopping. Okay. Or vice versa. Um >> and there's no cooking or food preparation on the premises. We explained we would be bringing in prepared food. Um I suspect there might be a microwave in there, Mr. Chairman, but we're not doing anything too heavy.
Okay. And we explained coffee, teas, iced teas, the beverages like that. Okay. Um both of these uses we uh explained at the last hearing and I'll say again importantly do not involve the physical expansion of any building on
the property. The greenhouse off the back of the coffee shop actually replaces a much larger greenhouse that was on the site for many years. The event space is on the second floor of a building. It's under an existing roof. Um so this is a rather unusual use
variance because nothing is getting built. Okay. Uh both uses um meet the particular suitability test because the building space and floor area is already there. uh what's been explained uh at the last hearing, I'll repeat again, the uses
contemplated for both link the customers who will use the event space and the coffee shop to activities on the site. Basically, these are people who love to garden and love to shop um and appreciate the type of um communitydriven garden center that the
Bruins are proposing here. Um, we explained the uses to you at the last hearing. I'm going to go through that again in a minute, so they're specific. I wanted to point out, um, you know, when we do these use variances, we do
have to explain why the use wasn't contemplated in the first place by your zoning ordinance and master plan. That answer is simple. Um, these are far too specialized and nuanced as land uses to be contemplated on planning documents
that generally look at things from a much higher level than let's say a 2700 square foot event space or 1,700 foot coffee shop. So, the additions are minor. Um, we suspect the vast majority
of people using each will uh be in love with gardening and garden centers and uh shopping at these facilities. Um, it's also important to point out um that each and every use that uses the
event space will be um staffed and monitored by um the Brewan family members or employees of South Street Gardens. We told you at the last hearing there would be no third-party rentals of the space. Can't just go in there and rent
the space for your own party. It's got to be supervised by the Bruins with them on staff at all times. Um we explained to you um and it's in my outline of testimony. Um this is a land use uh throughout the country right now that um
is facing severe competition from the big boxes. Home Depot, Lowe's, Costco come to mind. Can't just sell plants anymore. Um, you have to diversify. The trend in the garden center industry is
to add things such as cafes, food service, event space, um, and similar uses. South Street Gardens is just following a broad industry trend to compete with u, uh, big boxes.
Um the expansion proposed by the applicant um for the uh event space is just 14% of the overall buildout on the site. Uh the coffee shop is only 9%. So the dominant land use land use here
remains the garden center, the flower shop and everything that combines to be South Street Gardens. Remember we told you last month um garden center is located exactly where it was with Glendale
flower shop exactly where it was when Glendale was around. In Glendale we Glendale we date back over a hundred years on this site. Um parking lot in the same location. Um, so this applicant has put a heck of a lot of money and investment into the site without
changing um anything on the site in terms of physical expansions. Um so um with that said uh the other thing we do have to talk about is negative criteria and I kind of just
started with that. I wanted to point out again um everything going on here um mimics what was going on with Glendale. things have just gotten a lot better and a lot better looking. Um, there is no physical uh change to the property in
terms of building footprint. Building coverage stays the same. Our engineer, Mr. Stewart, at the last hearing explained our impervious coverage is actually going down by the removal of some parking area, some sidewalk, and some building. That's
going down by 4,400 square ft. We now know parking complies um with your ordinance and we have surplus of nine stalls. Um we consented to no um no sublets.
We consented to health health department approval. We consented to environmental commission approval. We said we would have no signs for the coffee space or the event space
and we consented to county approval. All these things uh line up to a conclusion that with no physical change in the property other than positive ones uh there cannot be any substantial detriment to the
public good nor to the intent and purpose of the zone plan. Um, so what I'm going to do now is hand out before Larry. Um,
we'll do this paper copy. Our list, our long list of um of proposed conditions of approval if you're inclined to go in that direction. Um, which
lists everything we everything we um suggested. one. >> We'll go through these quickly if you like. >> I asked a question, Mr. Tobia, since you have that picture up there, is there any
lighting on that monument sign >> um >> for evening? So nothing is proposed now. If anything, it's going to be very uh low voltage, low intensity ground firing is what we normally do. >> So if I was if I was coming through in
in the evening, like about this time, maybe it will not be lit or there will be low voltage signage. I I would like the board to allow the applicant the right to do something low intensity, ground firing, and suggest um
a shut off at um we're we're going to say on this list 10:00 maximum shut off for everything. >> Although our retail is closing at 6:00, right? >> Um so if we could do that and allow them the option of some illumination, that
would be super. You say no intensity. It's typical. >> Do you mean externally illuminated? >> Externally and ground mounted. >> Ground mounted. >> Yeah. So So not not internally. >> Oh no. Oh.
Yes. >> I don't think that would be good in this area. So >> I don't Just making sure. Just making >> Okay. Sorry about that. >> Like the township sign, right? >> Yeah. But is it a structure? >> All signs are Thank you.
>> Um, yeah, that's I I think I think that that sounds appropriate for this type of use, especially when they need a front yard at 6:00. People might think they'll be coming there. So, but I think just limiting it to um externally illuminated ground, >> but if it's only one foot from the
property line, has kind of have room for a light to shine. >> Well, they're tiny. They're just like because then you need to kind of just angle the head. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Um, okay. So, and and this again, uh, Mr. Chairman and board members speaks
to, um, our negative criteria and what we're trying to do to protect the public and address board concerns from our first hearing. Item one, no outdoor events shall take place in the front yard. Mr. Chairman, that was your baby. The way we're saying this is um nothing
in front of what we've been calling the welcome center and the coffee shop which is 204t of setback to South Street. >> If you've been out to the site, you know that area is entirely covered with plant material anyway. Correct. Okay.
>> I I would just add to that. I mean that we can the board just to clarify because there are a few threat ditches here. I would just clarify South Street front yard. >> Right. Got it. Um outdoor events. Um so we we explained
the um the proposal for our indoor um event space. We've also said um some because of what's on this site and how beautiful it is, some of these events might want to come outside in the form of let's say a cocktail hour before they
go inside for the main event or um activities relating directly to instructional um tutorials within the greenhouse, let's say. And so we're saying here outdoor events to be limited to the paved courtyard, PA courtyard,
which is a term specified on the site plan. um or the greenhouse and rear yard areas. So that says in a different way we can't go to the front yard. And it identifies on the plan, I could show you this again in a minute. Um favorite
courtyard and greenhouse area. Garden Center will be open no later than 7 a.m. Four and five I've covered already requesting township committee um approval of the pair street issues.
Six, you may recall there's a dwelling on the house. Um we represented to you at the last hearing that that would be used by for caretaker residents only um not a rental.
The caretaker will likely be um one of the members of uh the Brewan family or an employee will simply live there. Thank you. Um pursuant to your noise ordinance in
town, we said there'll be a 10:00 curfew on all site activities. Okay. And remember, our some of our activities are closing much sooner than that. This is really for the event space. Um, we also said there will be no leaf blowers
before 9:00 a.m. >> Well, can I just back up? When you say 10 p.m. curfew, does that mean the event will stop then? Because then there's usually about a half hour of people leaving parking. So, are we going to
10:00 for the cut off of the event or are we going to uh how do we get all the crowd out of there without disturbing all the neighbors at 10:30 and 11:00 tonight? Exactly. >> Uh we could go 9:45, kick them out 10:00, you know, everything's got to go
dark. >> And remember, this was inspired by your noise ordinance. So, >> Right. Right. Right. Um, you know, once people are leaving, there might be incidental noise relating to people pulling out of their parking spaces. Um, but any of the events would have to be
um, totally quiet by 10:00. >> Yeah. >> And while we don't think this, we know this is not going to be Animal House. Mr. chairman, you know, folks that are going to be in this event space. There's always an education with people leaving the property, you know, whether it be a restaurant bar and say if you're in a resial, make sure you keep it down. So
there could be some guidance as needed to folks coming to the events. But as Michael said, you know, the events might start wrapping up earlier than they could. 10:00 would be the time though when the event would have would effectively be hard stopped and that would be the last of the folks remaining
exiting at that point I think at 10:00. Any other board members with opinions on this kind of hard stop at 10? >> Yeah. >> The um anticipated
events at the site are listed in item nine. And this is all up on the monitor, by the way. Um and let me um see if I can So, I'll give you a little zoom so we can just talk about item nine. That should be a
little bit easier for everyone to see. Um, we thought we should give you some um identification and limitation on event type uses. These are mostly in the in the application submitted to the board
already. A floral design and gardening workshops. B. Wreath making, butterfly and terrarium workshops. Three, weddings and similar parties. D, design and decor workshops.
E, garden club meetings. Okay. Um, F, private parties and corporate events. G, fundraisers. H, events similar in nature to the events in the above list. just to give
our zoning officer some uh flexibility. And then I and J are food trucks and music in connection with those permitted events. >> Outdoor music. >> Say it again.
>> Outdoor music. Uh what are what are the parameters on outdoor music? That can mean a little back, you know, light music or it can be something you heard, you know, a quarter mile away. So, I mean, I think that's what uh might
be a concern of some of the neighbors. >> And does that mean live music or amplify music or >> Yeah, I think it could mean either. I think um we understand it's going to be decimal levels that they're going to have to be complied with. probably local but also the state code
but I think we have a scenario amplified music andor live one or the other. >> Can you just remind us um what the capacity of the event space is? >> 48 people. >> 48 people >> and that's a zoning capacity that the applicant is looking to limit itself to
the the fire code capacity is more than double that um in that room which is is modest. It's a little over 2,000 square feet, but it can hold over a hundred before you blow fire code. But 48 is the applicant's sweet spot and and I think reasonably struck number that they're
looking as the ce that's on the plans. >> Okay. Just wanted to confirm that because I think that I think there's a difference between a 48 person event and a 100 person event. Um especially when we're talking about
things like leaving at night, but too >> at the same Yes, that that would be that would be correct. Um, but I think that, you know, we talk about the indoor and outdoor music that just has a tendency, you know, in my experience that with events, even if
they're smaller, that I'm trying to think of a way that it can be controlled, >> right? Um because you know not every not every event everyone's going to be out there with a decel meter and you know 95% of the time you know what if it's like a might be a string quartet playing
at dusk you know that's probably going to be most of it but something like that but that then but then there's the opposite end of the spectrum >> right >> um >> yeah it's definitely going to be a balance out there I mean I I could say this the applicant went through this entire process a lot of time a lot of
cost and they realized that this board is is discretionarily reviewing the use varants request. I don't think that they're going to shoot themselves in the foot out there the minute that they have an event and and you know um the sirens are blazing and the zoning officers called and there's code enforcement and then we're back before this board
potentially on amendment or at least deal with this report. So I think their interests are probably very much aligned with the towns and the neighbors in that regard. Uh and if you recall from the prior meeting the applicant through Mr. Tobia and Matt Breuan spoke at length about the relationship we've established
with a lot of the neighbors. You heard from a few of our neighbors at that meeting. Get off to a very good start. I don't think that they're going to go astray, at least unintentionally. But um you're right. I I think it's probably sort of a gut test. If it feels like it might be too loud and too heavy, I am
hopeful that the applicant will be wise enough to tone it down immediately realizing what they went through to get this grant of approval. But if we can find some objective parameters, we're, you know, we're certainly all ears. That's what I thought we talked about last time.
>> No amplified music outside. >> Part of it. I think if I remember correctly, they had they had said that they might have like small speakers just playing like daytime sort of ambient music. That was sort of the hesitancy to say no amplified music.
>> Right. as you're walking around the garden center, you might hear some lowle music >> hear like like even like uh like music or like um like battling sounds or I was just thinking about places I've been to and that could be considered amplified.
So maybe a time restriction >> more stringent than the noise ordinance. I don't know because I I I don't I agree with you. I think that it's you know you don't want to >> Right. We we we we we don't think the we every the applicants done everything that you know that we ask for for the
most part whatever but at the same time it's like the zoning board isn't that chest type of thing so it's especially the zoning officer doing force it um so you know may and again but we don't want to put a strangle on the >> right right um I mean
>> but it's like you know what's the situation where you're going to have to be playing outdoor music past like 8:00 at night or something >> yeah time is certainly object Ive if you pick a hard stop time for outdoor music amplification it's it's definitive so
>> something I mean that seems to be the most obvious one >> well when when the closing time for the garden center itself >> typically 6 p.m. for the garden center. >> So we can say no more amplified outside music by seven
>> nine. >> So if I may, Mr. Chairman, I mean the the idea of music as indicated on nine J is um music in connection with permitted events. This would be for the event space,
>> right? Okay. Okay. Then you say outdoor music and like that's where I >> the outdoor. >> Yeah, that's the that's the part I'm hesitant because it's uh if outdoor music is really loud and the neighbors here, you know, four or five times a week, which I'm sure they're it's not
being planned, but can always evolve into that. Uh that's not what the neighbors signed up for. So that's why we want to put some parameters on it that will >> there's also weekends, weekdays, you know, you don't want to get too granular, but I think that there's sort of just like a logical test given the
location here, >> right? >> And remember our testimony, I'm just going over it again from last month, was four to seven um events a week, >> right? >> Okay. Um and this will include the you
know the ter terrarium workshops and all that. Um, there is music played on the site now, just ambient little speaker music. >> Right. Right. Which I don't think is a planning concern. >> No, I agree with that. Yeah, >> I agree with that. >> Mr. Tobia, could you just clarify? You
were talking about the people, you know, going outside during a cocktail hour staying on the PA section, but then you also mentioned a rear yard section. >> So, I just put that in there. Meaning if for some reason, >> that's a pretty big track back there. >> Well, that's where the rear parking lot is, >> right? um beneficial because right
behind that is um open space and route 287's back there. Um he's put that in there just to give them flexibility. The direction I know you weren't here at the last hearing. The direction from the board at that time was nothing in the front yard which is why you see that I
think it's condition one in there. Um so rear yard just met rear parking lot. >> Right. >> And did I hear you say earlier that would be no amplified music? working on that right now. Okay. >> The music might be it might be playing through a speaker, right? So technically
amplified if the music is is being played, right? I mean acoustic probably plugs in. >> Sure. >> Right. Um 900 p.m. is what the applicant is hopeful for as far as outside music shut off, amplified or not, whether it just be acoustic or an acoustic plug
into an amp sub, whatever the case may be. >> 9:00 p.m. for the outdoor music shut off any given day of the week. Um, Mr. chair members. Perhaps that's, you know, an objective standard that can be followed. >> I mean, my biggest concern envisioning just how, you know, what what is a
permitted event, >> right? >> Um, you know, I've been to events in outdoor spaces, outdoor live music is phenomenal. >> Sure. >> But you get the right band and it's, you know, 2 to six and next thing you know, I've been at events where 200 people love that band. They show up, they're parking all over the place in
residential areas. like are we so how do we define the the permitted use through that? >> Mr. Goldberg, I will say I'll answer for Larry is that I was just looking at that and it is specific that it's only in relation to a permitted the uses that are on this list. So it couldn't be like here's a concert,
>> right? But if the permitted use is on the list is we're having some food trucks over and then we're going to combine that with a band. But it's >> No, it still is part of a the food trucks and the music are part of the other uses. Those are almost like subcategories of subcategories. >> Yeah, that's the way because it's the
way that it's listed on there. Okay. >> Um I think that that was intentional because it's like um number H events similar in nature to the above because I think that this you know the way I read this is that it was specifically intended so that they could not do exactly what you're saying because I think that that is a concern.
>> Yeah. Correct. >> Everything would be complimentary to a registered event. >> Yes. >> Right. You have a you have a fundraiser, you have your food truck there, maybe you have a band, but it's not like a it's all related to something
>> that's not a standalone event itself, right? >> Yes. Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you for clarifying. >> Well, so the rest of this list I've already covered health department approval, environmental commission approval, Mars
County approval, and I know Mr. Mr. Roller has standard conditions that he will of course put in here. I did want to share Mr. Roller with you um for the reason stated the application meets goals of the municipal land use
law A C E G I N M. Okay. And I I'll close and then take your questions with reminding everybody. This site in the last few years became a train wreck and a blight, you know, and years ago it was a cute place to shop. I was there 30
years ago buying flowers. Um if you go out and look at the piece now, I hope some of you have, uh the turnaround on the site has been outstanding. Okay, outstanding. um in terms of u site work and uh building design and building improvement. This is what we want the
private sector to do. Um to make it work, we know we need flexibility. We can't just be selling geraniums anymore. That's the garden center from 50 years ago. That was the business plan. So, um I think as I've been watching the Brewing family for I don't know last
four months or so, my conclusion is that they've done a heck of a lot right on this property. Mr. Chair, we make Mr. Toby available any questions folks might have your professionals and of course uh the public if any of his direct testimony tonight.
>> Mr. when you run through and say uh ACI G and M. Um that's what what you said right? >> You got it. Yes. >> Could you explain that for the people in the audience uh members of the public so that uh they understand exactly what
you're saying when you uh going off those sub paragraphs. So, um, the municipal land use law establishes a number of goals, um, kind of on page one of the law that tells you what you're supposed to do when you do land use regulation. Um, goal A and, and by the
way, you know, all variances are held to a standard that says you must promote one or more purposes of the municipal land use law. Goal A uh simply says encourage municipal action to guide the appropriate use uh or development of all
lands in the state. Appropriate use of this property was established over a hundred years ago with Glendale. Um that use continues. It has a legal right to continue. Um and so we deem it an appropriate use for the site. Um C says
provide adequate air, light, and open space. And remember what I told you, this all the work that's been done here by the Bruins has been done on the existing footprint of uh Glendale. And in some areas in the back, that footprint is actually been reduced in
size. Um C um really there's nothing on C to help us. E um says provide sufficient space and appropriate location for a variety of commercial land uses. Um, this is an appropriate location because the sites and its use
has been grandfathered in for decades. Uh, question for the board, you know, historically was, do you leave it as a as a blight on the neighborhood or do you fix it up? We all know the correct answer to that is fix it up and invest in the property. I says kind of the same
thing. Promote a desirable visual environment. Um, every building but one on the site's been resided. We've got new windows, extensive inter interior interior improvements to the buildings. Um, uh,
new fencing. Over 150 plants have been put up around the perimeter of the site, mostly arborvite, to protect our neighbors, all of which amounts to a desirable visual environment and go, Mr. Chairman, speaks to the more efficient use of land. Glendale's probably been
closed three years by now. There was nothing efficient about what had happened to Glendale over the last few years. And now, of course, it's a vibrant contributing community-based uh business in Mars Township.
Board members, any questions? Any questions? Any members of the public with any questions of this witness? Okay, sorry professional [Applause] >> talking about.
>> So Mike, this should be very simple. I want to just confirm since we were going over all the conditions. Um there was still there was some questions about the signage on the Whitney Street access. I believe you confirmed at the last hearing, but can you just a confirm
you'll agree to work with either my office or Joe's office to refine the message and what those signs are? >> Uh, yes. Okay. Right now, the plan shows four signs. If you want a few more, we'll do it. >> It's not a matter of number. It's just
making sure they convey the right message. >> I don't know. >> I we Yes, we will do that. Make that a condition of approval. >> That was it, Mr. Chairman. Otherwise, I'm happy to see that they were able to move the sign outside of the sight triangle. That was really my only concern with this application.
>> And this location, it is outside the site triangle. >> Yes, it is. Um, actually, just so we're clear, you there was some the plans sometimes say relocate. From the um rendering you showed, it's a
new it's a new sign, right? It'll be >> what's out there now is temporary. Okay. because we knew we were dealing with um the county on this issue. You can call it a new sign if you want. What I wanted to communicate to everybody is it's going to be the same size.
>> It's the same size as the prior sign, but it will be a new sign in a new location. Just the same size. >> Yes. >> All right. >> I agree with that. >> That was it, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. >> Okay. Members of the public, any questions? My name is John Weissber. I live at 20
Prospect Place, Mars Township. >> Can you spell your last name, please? >> W I S G E R B E R. Mr. Tobia, you said you've been to Glendale. >> Yes, sir.
>> Recently or obviously not since it's closed, but you said you went there about 30 years ago. >> I was a fan about, you know, somewhere a long time ago. 20 to 30 years ago. >> So, you visited there often. >> What flowers there? >> So, you bought flowers there?
>> Yes, sir. >> Uh, when you were there, did you ever buy fertilizer? >> No. >> Potted plants? >> Probably not. Top soil? >> Uh, no. >> Gifts? >> No. >> Uh, Henry Rose ever give you a cup of
coffee? >> No. >> So, it wasn't really a garden center then, was it? You're testifying that it was a garden center. >> It was a garden center. I went to the flower shop, which is about where the exactly where the flower shop is now.
Um, my recollection is they were doing wholesaling there as well, but I was a flower guy. I went in to buy flowers and I I >> But you never saw any of those other normal garden center products on display. >> Um, can't say I did.
>> I mean, you go to Have you ever been to the farm in Green Village? >> Of course. Yes, sir. >> Okay. Did Glendale resemble the farm in Green Village? >> Um, you know, Glendale, it seems to me, it's been a long time. Okay. But um it seems to me that was more a homespun mom
and pop small garden center. It had the wholesale thing going on in the back. Sometimes I'm told 24 hours. So they were working overnight. Um and um you know and time passed it by. >> Well they say that most family
businesses fail in the third generation. >> Yes. >> Buzzy Rose was the third generation. So, um, it was expected. Uh, it was it was a nice piece of property in its day. >> Okay. Questions right now. >> My question. Okay. I'm going to ask my
questions. >> Um, there was a lot of talk and testimony about noise and music. Uh, is there acoustical consultant advising you on any of your testimony?
>> There is not. So, we have music planned, we have large gatherings planned, but we have not studied the actual impact of acoustics on the neighborhood. >> I wouldn't say we have large events planned. We have events planned.
>> You have parking. You have parking for 90 cars. >> Correct. >> Okay. You have outside speakers for music and entertainment. There's talk of live bands. Uh I hear the Ginty Field concerts from a much greater distance.
So, if that's the type of sounds that we're going to be generating on that property, I would suspect that it's going to penetrate the property line. >> Well, I heard I heard your question, Mr. Weissber, so did my witness. And the answer is no. There has not been an acoustic consultant on this project. Uh, that is relatively atypical of a project
such as this. There was not one here. It was not required. It was not requested. So, the punchline, short answer is no. >> Okay. Well, I would suggest to the board that it should be studied. Um, we have uh a gathering space for 48 seats. You testify that under the fire
code it could accommodate up to 100 people legally. Correct. >> I testify I profered. It wasn't testimony. >> It was a ball. >> Well, I heard m I heard Mr. Tobia mention 100 people under the fire. >> You just you heard >> it was Mr. Cali who said that but 48 is
the correct number in the event space. >> Okay. >> 48 seats >> but 100 is the fire code >> ballpark. I testify >> 48 is what it's being capped at. Is there a question? >> The question is will there ever be more than 48 people on the second floor
>> that was definitively testified to as a no this evening but 48 is the maximum proposed by way of the conditions the applicants proposed this evening test. >> Okay. So 48 a small wedding then >> 48 people. >> Okay. But mentioned wedding >> any event.
>> Okay. Any event with 48 people. Uh I was not here for the uh original meeting on the 28th and I will address that in my presentation. However, um
I did hear that there was a um commercial kitchen being considered for this property. The architectural plans show a commercial kitchen and a bar. >> There's no testimony to say. Mr. Wisker,
I appreciate you weren't here at the last meeting. The >> I watched the entire video. I know exactly what happened for three hours. >> Okay. Just take one person at a time. Don't argue. But I have no witness here for you to cross-examine this evening. The protocol is that you are entitled to cross-examine the witness based upon testimony offered during direct
examination. Mr. Tobia spoke to none of those items tonight. So for the sake of brevity and following the process, we really cannot answer that question this evening. >> Spoken like a true lawyer. Can you raise your question and maybe we can get some sort of answer? I'm requesting an answer
only because I wasn't here for the 28th and I'm going to explain why I wasn't here for the 28th. >> I understand you weren't here last meeting. >> You can How many questions do you have concerning testimony from the last meeting? >> I have a lot of questions from about
testimony from the last meeting. >> Well, was it was it was it testimony from this witness or from another witness? >> Uh, well, there was testimony from the architect. There was testimony from the traffic consultant. There was testimony from the applicant.
So I have a lot of questions. >> I I understand that. But right now you can only ask questions concerning Mr. Toby's testimony. >> All right. I will I will restrict it to Mr. Toby. >> So you can ask Mr. Toby questions about things that he testified or things
related to what he's testified. >> Okay. Then other than the acoustical issues for the site, I don't have any more questions for Mr. Tobi. >> Okay. Thank you. Any other members of the public with questions? >> Hello. Good evening. My name is Eric Vieiraa. I'm an at your last name,
please. >> It's V as in Victor. I E I R A. >> Your address, Mr. Pierre. >> 18 Prospect Place. I'm exactly three
backyards over from the proposed event space. Okay. So, my first question is as far as Okay. I I a lot of people don't seem concerned about the coffee situation, but I want to understand are as a garden
center, how are you going to decipher who's going to have coffee and who's not going to have coffee? Are you are you is it just is coffee and hot cocoa and all that just for me when I go inside to buy my Christmas tree or are the people that are going to Atlantic Health from 287
every single morning which are already being offshot okay to that area. Are they all going to be stopping now to get coffee since Richie's Deli closed down? It's such a nightmare. I have two dogs. >> A second. He asked a question. He can't >> Okay, got it. >> No.
>> So the answer is it will be open to the public. >> Okay. The expectation is the people going there will be continuing to shop there and browse there and so on. >> There's not going to be any advertisement for a coffee shop out on the street.
>> We already said no sign for the coffee shop, right? So that's true. >> Okay. But you're still increasing traffic in that area. I walk my dogs there every single day, every morning in the morning and the afternoon. >> Okay. >> Question. My question is
>> my question is with all of these other additions that we're proposing. Has there even been any talk about a crosswalk on Twire? Something to help control. There's not one sidewalk on South Street in that whole entire area. Now you're going to add a coffee shop
which is going to make people that are in that whole area near Ginty Field, they're going to want to walk up to the garden center. I would in the morning and get coffee. But guess what? There's not one sidewalk or a crosswalk. So that's that's just so we're going to
add we're going to add an event space. That's my question. Yes. Are we going to add an event space? If we're going to add an event space and a coffee shop, are we going to at least put in, you know, some kind of crosswalk? That's one question. >> People are flying there. Flying there.
My dog, my dog twice has almost gotten killed. Flying. There's no cops. No cops watch South Street ever. Okay. I'm there 10 years. I'm a taxpayer and I've lived here since 2010. >> Question. Okay. Do you have a question?
>> My next question, yes, is regarding the event space. I think 10:00 at night. Okay. Seven days a week, three backyards over. Okay. I work really hard. Okay. I I've put a ton of money into my property in the past 10 years. Anybody that knows me, >> sir.
>> Yes. >> This is a time for questions. you'll have a time to sum up and give your opinion and testify as to this application, but right now it's questions. >> Okay. So, my question is, can we control the amount of noise?
Because I understand that there's been no noise control. There's been no >> Are you directing your question to the uh witness? >> Yeah. Is there going to be How are we going to control the volume level, you know, and does it have to be until 9:00 at night? Let him answer one question
first and then go to the second question regard. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so I I can help with that, Mr. Vieira. Um, the applicant is proposing a condition of approval. Should the board act in favor of the application that acoustic noise
generated by music, we have to meet the noise code any which way you cut it. The municipal noise code is also a state noise code. We're not asking for any reprieve from that. the board could not grant it even if we had asked for it. We have to meet the municipal and state standards for noise levels which is
decimal measure at the property line and the whole calculation that's a lot smarter than me to figure that out. That said, the applicant is asking for a certain use in this property that might include music outdoors and indoors in the event space.
The proposal is outdoor music will cease no later than 9:00 p.m. >> I wanted to I My question is that I would like it to I would like it to end earlier than that. I think 9:00 p.m. is still too late on a Sunday night when I >> Excuse me. We're arguing.
I just don't understand. >> Well, I understand that and I understand your frustration, but right now we're just asking questions. You can come up later and voice all your frustrations and all your uh opinions. >> Okay. So my my question was again, how are we controlling the noise volume and
who is going to police that? >> Just one question time. >> So we're controlling it by the stipulation that Mr. Cari just shared with you. >> Um noise in every town um is always
subject to you potentially making a complaint with police if you hear music at 10:00 at night, let's say. and it's usually addressed on a complaint basis. Hope that doesn't happen. That's that's usually the way it works.
>> But my question is what if it does continue to happen? Who's going to police that? You're telling me that the police police aren't always, you know, they're busy with other things that they're just going to come. I'm going to constantly be complaining. Okay. Because the bottom line is you say 9:00, that means 11:00
at night. That's when they're going to be rolling out of there. That's what's going to happen. And we're going to be hearing everybody drunk outside trying to, you know, get in their cars, stone driveway, the whole thing. We're going to hear all of it. I hear it all. Okay. I hear their blowers every morning. I hear all the construction
>> already, but this is only questions. >> I'm trying to stick to only questions, but it's hard because there's a lot of things involved. >> Okay. So, fine. >> No control then. So, basically, there's going to be no control is what you're
saying. We we we we we did we did not say that. I mean, I candidly take exception to the assumption that we're going to stop at 11:00 even though we're conceding to 10, that there's going to be drunk people leaving the property, and that there's going to be no control at all. But the applicant said none of that through my profit or through any witness. None of that was the case.
>> Yeah. And I think the answer really is if it goes beyond whatever the condition is that the board imposes, right, you can and should make a complaint and you and the police can issue a summon or the
zoning officer can issue a summon on your behalf. Right. So it should that continue, it would go to municipal court. >> So there's no control from the other side. >> No, not from back there. Okay. So, so that's the procedure.
>> So, back to the crosswalk. Is that even on the table? Has that even been discussed? You guys are You want to increase? >> We've asked about the You've asked about the crosswalk. There's been no testimony about a crosswalk. It's not in the plan. That's something the municipal you have
to go to the township committee to get a crosswalk. >> So, okay, just please help me understand. So, we're supposed to wait until somebody dies and gets killed? >> No. >> Okay. Before I go to them. No, that's my question. >> I said you have to go to the township
committee to get a crosswalk. >> Every day almost an accident happens there daily. >> This applicant cannot put in a crosswalk. >> Okay, fine. But I'm I'm >> the township committee has to put in a crosswalk. >> My request is that if you're There's always accidents there every day. Okay.
My request is that if you're going to approve this, okay, as members that care about a community, that you're going to be concerned about putting a crosswalk in there. And I think it should be a stipulation. Fine. You want them to be open to a coffee shop that we should at least have. >> Can you just relax? We're not here to
argue. You're here to ask at this point to ask questions. You can come up and give your opinion and give your testimony later on, but right now it's just questions of this witness. I did ask a question and my question still remains will there be a crosswalk is
that even in the idea of anybody to do something like that. >> Okay. No sir. >> No. Okay. So that takes care of that. Um I I was concern alcohol.
Why do we have to have catered alcohol? This is a garden center, right? >> Excuse me. I have a question. >> Why do we need to have catered alcohol? That is the proposed business plan. That is the only way alcohol comes onto the site. This was explained at the last
meeting. Um, uh, the South Street Gardens is not selling alcohol. There's not a BYOB. If it's done under the supervision and organization of a caterer, um, it will be peritted. >> Okay.
>> Excuse me, >> sir. >> It's okay. Let if you want to come up and ask questions, you can come up later on and ask questions, but can't just shout out comments from the back. >> Is it possible that the wool was pulled
over all of our eyes? Okay. And it was never about the garden center or the or >> that's that's my question. >> Question. >> It's a very good question. I'm sorry, but I've been spec a spectator on the side watching this whole process from beginning to end. Okay. So my question
is I believe that the wool was pulled over our eyes and my question is was the ultimate goal always the event center and the coffee space? >> No. >> Okay. Thank you very much for your time. >> Okay. >> Any other members of the public with
>> Mr. Chairman? I I just wanted to say something quickly because I think the public has had a couple of this has come up a couple times. Just want to clarify that the applicant is here for a D1 use variance for this use. They're not trying to claim that it is the same as the prior use. They're saying that some
areas of it were, but they are, you know, the board is here to specifically evaluate the fact that they are looking at a um to to expand the use of the property to have events, etc., >> right? >> So, you know, that that's not you know, there's no there's no deception going on for that. The board is here to judge to
judge that. >> Mr. Topia, did you make the determination that Glendale was >> Give your name again? I'm sorry. >> John Weiss Gerber, 20 Prospect Place. >> It's usually you only line up once, but I'll let you come up. >> Well, I lost my train of thought, so I
had to return to gray hair has meaning sometimes. >> Question. >> The question is, did you make the determination that Glendale was an existing nonconforming garden center for its it its existence? The history of
Glendale was provided to me by the Brewan family in all their various research leading up to the purchase of the property. >> So, the Brewan family determined that the Glendale Florist
was a garden center, a a nonconforming use in a residential zone. >> No, the Breuin family did not did not make a a a legal and planning definitive decision. They discussed site history. It was a garden center. I mean, it's
been a garden center. It's Yeah, it's been >> But what's what is the definition of a garden center? >> I don't think there is one in your uh >> municipal land. >> No, there's not one, but it's been Glendale, Florest since
>> for forever. >> For a hundred years. Yes, I I know that. >> And they raised flowers for a hundred years. Correct. >> Oh, I wasn't here the first part of it. >> Yes. >> So, raising flowers is a farm.
Correct. >> Would you agree? Would you agree that raising flowers is a farm? >> It to a degree, but that was part of a business that also sold flowers, sold plants. So, >> it it grew it had green houses and it
was a commercial operating business. >> A farm. commercial. >> There is a definition for a farm and this does not meet it. >> Okay. >> So, no one didn't answer that, sir. >> Well, his question is, was Glendale a
farm? We know you're not proposing a farm, right? >> Okay. So, the use that's being proposed is a nonconforming use for a residential zone. Correct. >> Is that correct?
A farm is a permitted use in the RA15. Correct. >> So that you know you're taking some liberties here. We are not representing that Glendale was a farm. We're saying >> I know you're not. You're representing it that it was a garden center. >> Correct.
>> But it never was. >> But it never was. >> You Mr. Westg, you know, for the sake of time, you've asked a question. You've heard Mr. Tobia's answer repeatedly on this topic. Is there another question, sir? >> Oh, no. No. I will I'll take care of the rest of it when I give my presentation.
>> Okay. >> Mr. Chairman, I have a a point of order. >> Yes. >> You shut down my neighbor and I heard you shut down the uh gentleman that was here on the last. The chairman didn't shut anyone down. He's
trying to let them understand that this is a time for questions and and some people come up here and they go beyond asking questions and they start to make statements. There's plenty of time. >> Exactly my point, sir. >> When the questions are completed that they can come up and they can make their
statements. >> I listened to the tape. Okay. >> From July 28th, whatever the date was, >> the same subject came up at that meeting. It's it's on the record. >> Okay. >> Where
residents got up and tried to make statements >> and they were told they couldn't make statements. >> Right. Because >> before the end of that meeting, >> wait, will you listen please? You cannot make your statements until they have completed their presentation. After they have completed your pre their
presentation, then the public can make statements and put on witnesses uh if they wish. put bring in expert witnesses, whatever. But they can make their case, but they have the right to complete their case before the public
comes up and gives their testimony and their opinions on the on the application. >> Then why on July 28th did you permit three residents to come up to this microphone and make gushing statements and praise of this
application when the application is still under submission? Why did you allow that to happen? when you're not allowing it to happen tonight. >> One witness who said he he came up and asked the question and then said he was in favor of >> there were three >> three but they were listen questions and
the same thing happened tonight where people start to ask a question and it rolls into their making statements and that's what happened. It happens quite often, right? But the purpose for right now is questions and as the chairman
said, they need to finish their application first during which after each witness, you get to ask as many questions as you want. When they're completed, you can put on your case and they can ask you questions. >> I I understand the rules of evidence and I I understand Robert's rules and I know
the procedures. This is a judicial body. Okay. Um, the only point I'm making is I didn't witness it in person on the 28th, but I did listen to the full three-hour tape and it did happen and they were given permission to come to the microphone and make statements. That's
all I want to that's the only point I want to make. Thank you. >> Any other members of the public with questions? >> Oh, okay. >> One quick question. >> Okay. >> My name's Michelle Cullum. I live on 44 Woodland Avenue. Can you spell your last name?
>> C U L L I M as a Mary. The event space that you're saying is 48 people, >> correct? >> It's 48 people on the second floor. Does that include if you have outdoor uh activity going on like a cocktail hour stuff?
>> Would that double that? >> Are you finished? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It was explained that these things are going to be scheduled. So, we're not going to have three events going on at once or more. They're going to be scheduled so they don't overlap and don't over text the site. 48 is the
number upstairs. Um, if as an example, a party upstairs wanted to start out with cocktails down below. Um, and then go upstairs as a cooler. >> That would be that would be a typical activity for the United States. So there
is the possibility of having more than 48 people if you're having an outdoor activity. >> Yes. No, it would be the same group going. >> So, but if it's an exclusive like in the summertime out outdoor food trucks,
whatever. If you're having an exclusive outdoor activity, if they want to be in that garden center or in the back parking lot, then you could actually have more than 48 people. >> I don't think that's accurate. Um, >> but they wouldn't be using that upstairs area using outdoors.
>> Yes. Yeah, I think that's accurate. You could contemplate an event. Um, and let's I'm just looking at the um exhibit behind here like floral design, a workshop, >> which might make a lot more sense to being one of the green houses where we have flowers,
>> okay? And we can teach people how to >> make displays for instance or uh or terrariums or things like that. That would make sense to be outside. That would be an event that would be more outside than inside. >> I understand. I just feel like
especially in the nice weather. Me personally, I think you guys did a beautiful job. It's gorgeous. I love walking around it. But if I in the nice weather, I'd rather be outside in your gardens. So that would give me the possibility of raising that occupancy
for my party. Questions? >> Nope. That's it. I just want to make sure they're occupy. >> Any other member of the public with questions? >> I have a question. >> Okay. >> Over the past 10 years, >> state your name again, please.
>> My name is Eric Vieira. My question is, because I know you want a very direct question, has anything been done regarding um prevention of water drain off? because that is they completely back up and we all back up
into very very wet land. And over the past 10 years, I've spent well over a hundred grand just on drainage, on a a generator, backup, sump pumps, some pumps, all kinds of things. Okay. So, and and I already start to see the water
table over the past few months starting to climb again. So, my question is, was anything done in order to control any of that? I heard that Mr. Vieira. So the design requirements are dictated by by the state of New Jersey. There's also local codes that controls
for storm water management. Um it has been designed accordingly. It's been reviewed by the municipal engineer and there is no relief being sought in connection with storm water management controls for water runoff and water recharge on site. It complies with the
code requirements and it will apply. Any other members of the public with questions of this witness? >> Okay, last question. >> Last question. >> Since Eric brought up water, I have a question. >> Named again, please. >> John Weisscober 20 Prospect Place.
Uh Mr. um Cali, since you answered the last question, was there an application for a uh LOI made with the Newart New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection? We do have to ask our civil engineer, but the applicant is not seeking a
reprieve from any required submissions to any other agency that has jurisdictional right of review. The the TCC requested on the uh March uh minutes of their meeting a investigation of the
site water and effects on adjacent lands. There's been an environmental study in the field. The site's been flagged by an environmental reviewer uh as the potential impacts. It's been also peer-reviewed by the applicant civil engineer Fred Stewart, but your question
was has there been a loan file with the D? I I'd be guessing and I'm not going to guess. >> Isn't it a requirement? >> I'm not going to guess an answer, sir. I think I got to the punch line to be helpful to you quickly, which is if another agency review is required, the
applicant will have to make such a submission to that agency. Okay. Any other questions from the public? >> Board members. Board professionals. Any other? >> No. Okay. Close the public portion.
Board members, any other board professionals, any other questions of this witness? >> Okay. None. Any other witnesses? Mr. Kelly, >> that's all we have. And I'd like to just very few closing remarks. Should we get to I'd like to defer that until after we hear from, you know,
>> well, I think we're gonna have members of the public coming up and it's 5 to 10. >> Uh, Mr. White, uh, >> need an hour. >> That's what I was afraid of. Okay. So,
we're not going to finish this tonight. Okay. >> Can we confirm though whether or not Mr. Weiss Gerber what I don't want to happen and I don't suspect it will but I >> Mr. Weisser come up to the microphone just so we can >> where we are on the heels of the next meeting where Mr. Weiss Gerber intends
to put on his case and chief in opposition and says oh but you know what I still need to I need to hire someone. I need more time. I'd rather not >> Mr. Cali I'm totally >> Wait a second just a second. Let Mr. Callie's finished then I'll direct you and we'll we'll go from there because
Mr. Weissberger what Mr. Cali is saying is that um if you're going to call additional witnesses >> no >> okay like uh a planning expert uh an engineering professional you're going to
call any uh witnesses >> I'm here as a citizen >> right you well citizens have the right to bring in professionals I don't intend to bring in a professional >> okay >> okay >> uh if you do if you decide you know you go home and reflect on it that yes I
want to bring in a professional. Uh please that professional does have to supply us with a report. >> Correct. >> So we have something sub uh the applicant has a basis for evaluating it in in advance and the board has the
ability to review it in advance. >> I've been coming to these meetings for 50 years and I know your procedures pretty well. So >> Okay. >> I understand completely. >> All right. So, you think you would take about an hour and it just be you? >> Um, >> I don't know if it's just going to be
me. I >> I understand. But for you, it's just you. >> Correct. >> Uh, other other members of the public may also be giving their comments, their testimony, and they are free to hire an
expert if they so desire. So, if they do, if any members of the public do wish to hire an expert, they do have to submit their uh that expert name and a report at least 10 days in advance of the hearing. >> Correct.
>> As I said, I'm I'm here testifying as a citizen, not as an expert, not as a professional, not as an engineer, not as a planner. >> Okay. >> Just John Weisscover. >> All right. So, what are we where are we going from here? What information do we
need? >> We need any extensions. >> Let's see what the date is. >> November. September's not good. >> September's not good. What's October look like?
>> October is >> October. >> October sooner, huh? >> Well, we've got the one >> September is full. >> September was has the one that uh got a journ from this week that might have bumped you anyway. Put you in here,
>> right? >> So, no chance of a special. I was just ask I know the applicant is looking to wrap this up. >> Oh, I understand that. >> Yeah, I know. I know. Every applicant wants to wrap it up. >> I know long I know but um
>> so it would be October >> October 27th >> October 27th September becomes more difficult too Larry because you know our regular meeting night isn't even a regular meeting night in September. It's going to be the fifth Monday in September. So,
so there's no extra nights in Mon in September where we could fit in special >> holiday, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, just so the board recalls that too, September is the fifth Monday, not the fourth Monday for our next meeting.
>> All right. So, so October 27th, Sonia, >> October 27th. >> Okay. So, for uh for the public, this meeting is now being adjourned. It will continue on October 27th um at 700 p.m. in this room. There'll be no further notices from the applicant.
>> All right. And do we need any extensions, >> Larry? Through uh November. That's fine. Right. >> Okay. Great. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. So, any other matters we need to discuss?
Any other business? Any other business we need to discuss? I have nothing. >> You have nothing. Okay. Nothing. Okay. >> Okay. Entertain a motion to
>> motion to adjurnn. Mr. Chairman, I have a second. Second. All in favor? I I meeting adjourned.