Okay. Call to order the Morris Hatchet Board of Adjustment meeting today is Marches uh 2026 at 7 p.m. Statement of compliance with the opening meetings act of legal notice required in
accordance with the open public meetings act has been satisfied. The statement certifying saying was executed. Would you please rise and the flag? >> I pledge algiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> First order of business, um we're going to proceed with our reorient. We have uh
Danell Williams and Singapara to take their office. Would you just come up here? Why don't we go to that corner? >> Would you raise your right hands and then repeat after me? I do solemnly swear >> I do solemnly swear
>> that I will support the Constitution of the United States >> Constitution of the United States >> and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey >> and I will bear faith and allegiance >> to the same and to the government
established in the United States and in this state under the authority of the people. I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully and partially and justly perform all the duties
>> of the office of the board of adjustment. >> According to the best of my ability to ability, would you sign this? You have a pen. You need a pen. That's what I think should be signed that
>> okay. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Okay. So first uh would be nominations for the year 2026. Is there a nomination for the board
chair? >> I'd like to nominate >> for the board chair. Okay. Um, >> call the dentist office. >> He's not on. His mic's not on. No. Okay. >> Try again.
>> Mr. Lee Goldberg. >> Yes. >> Present. >> Present. I didn't hear the >> motion for chair. >> Oh, I'm sorry. Uh, yeah. For roll call, Mr. Lee Goldberg. >> Yes. Mr. Andrew Draenberg >> here.
>> Mr. Don Williams. >> Yes. >> Mr. David Schustster is not present. Mr. Edward Ben. >> Yes. >> Mr. William Kramer. >> Yes. >> Mr. Paul Woodford. >> Here. Miss Betty Simmons. >> Yes. >> And Miss Snig Polar.
>> All right. So, Mr. Woodford is the board chairman for 2026. >> All right. >> Chairman. >> Your seat. >> We're going to do a roll call after we reorder. Okay. Next is um nominations for uh
board uh vice chair. >> Mr. Chair, I'd like to nominate Lee Goldberg. >> Thank you. Do I have a second? >> I'll second that. >> Thank you. >> Mr. Kerpet. Uh roll call on that. >> Mr. Goldberg. >> Yes.
>> Mr. Trackenberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Williams. >> Yes. >> Mr. Benois. >> Yes. >> Mr. Kramer. >> Yes. >> Mr. Woodford. >> Yes. Miss Simmons. >> Yes. >> Okay. You're on board again. Next, we have several uh resolutions
uh for nomination to fold positions. The first is for legal counsel Richard Oler. I assume everybody has read that uh proposed resolution. Any comments? If not, I'll have a motion to >> I'll make a motion to approve that.
>> Okay. Got a second. >> Second. >> Okay. Do I have to do a roll call or just acclamation? Okay. All in favor? >> Any opposed? No. Motion carries. Next for um planning consultant uh Kate
Keller and Elizabeth uh Lenny. Uh can everybody has read that? And can I have a uh a motion please? >> Motion to approve. >> Okay. Is that a second? >> Second. >> All right. All in favor? >> I.
>> Uh any opposed? No. Next, engineering consultant, Jo Joseph Voy. Same thing. Can I have an uh a motion, please? >> I'll move it. >> Thanks. Do I have a second? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> Any opposed?
>> Nope. Motion carries. Next is uh John Jar as the traffic consultant. Uh can I have a motion on that? >> So move. >> Second. >> Thank you. All in favor? >> I. Any opposed? >> Next. Professional appointments. Uh Ryan
Kerpat as a board secretary. >> I'll move that. >> You move that. Second. >> Ryan, you have any objection? >> I do not. >> Okay. All in favor? >> You're in. >> And next is the um resolution with the
draft for um meetings uh for this year and for January reorg meeting in 2027. Any comments, questions on it? If not, motion to adopt the resolution. >> So move. >> Thank you. Second.
>> Second. >> All right. All in favor? >> What do we got next? >> That's it. Now we can go into our regular resolutions. Mr. Elder. >> Yeah. So, we're going to open the
regular meeting. And you know, Ryan, I'm going to ask you to do a roll call for the regular meeting, please. >> Sure. Mr. Coberg >> here. >> Mr. Trackerberg >> here. >> Mr. Williams >> here. >> Mr. Schustster is not here. Mr. Benis >> here.
>> Mr. Kramer >> here. >> Mr. Woodford >> here. >> Miss Simmons >> here. >> And Miss Clark. >> Thank you. Okay. Now, we do have uh several resolutions. The first being
application BA1625 for Edward Dwire. Um Mr. Dwire applied to the board for variance relief to permit various additions to an existing single family dwelling at 17 Spring Brook Road in the R815 zone for the reasons that are set forth in the resolution. That
application was conditionally granted with standard conditions. Okay. Board members, uh any comments? If not, I'll entertain a motion to approve the resolution. >> So move. >> Okay. Do I have a second? >> Second. >> Thank you, Miss Mr. Kerpat. Uh, roll
call. >> Sure. >> Mr. Goldberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Trackenberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Williams? >> Yes. >> Mr. Benis? >> Yes. >> Mr. Kramer? >> Yes. >> Mr. Woodford? >> Yes. >> Miss Simmons? >> Abstain.
>> Were you not here for that one? >> Okay. >> Okay. Next. >> All right. Next is the um resolution for Carl Hes um for property at 529 Jaki Hollow Road. Mr. Hess applied to the board for
variance relief to per permit the installation of a 16x 24 ft pergola on an existing patio uh on his property which is in the RA130 zone and for the reasons set forth in this resolution that application was conditionally granted with our standard conditions.
Okay, board members, any questions on the resolution? If not, I'll entertain a motion. >> Motion to approve. >> Thank you. Do I have a second? >> Second. >> Thank you, >> Mr. Kurpat. >> Mr. Goldberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Trackenberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Williams?
>> Yes. >> Mr. Schuster. Is that not here? Mr. Benis? >> Yes. >> Mr. Kramer? >> Yes. >> Mr. Woodford? >> Yes. >> And Miss Simmons? >> Stain. >> Okay. Next. >> Okay. Next is a resolution with respect
to the application filed by Jerome Brumy um for property at 32 Winmore Drive. Mr. Brumy applied to the board for permission to modify an existing non-conforming dwelling by constructing in addition to his existing dwelling
requiring uh sideyard, rear yard variances, building coverage and and expansion of an existing non-conforming structure. And for the reasons set forth in that resolution, it was approved conditionally u with our standard conditions as well as a condition
indicating that he had to uh correct the zoning compliance chart. >> Thank you board members. Any comments, questions? If not, entertain a resolution. Motion. >> I'll move that. >> Thank you. Do I have a second? >> Second.
>> Thank you, Mr. Kerfat. Roll call. >> Mr. Coberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Trackenberg. Yes, >> Mr. Williams. >> Abstain. >> Mr. Benois. >> Yes, >> Mr. Kramer. >> Yes, >> Mr. Woodford. >> Yes. >> And Miss Simmons. >> Yes.
>> Okay. And the last resolution with respect to an application filed by Alex and Jacqueline Oers for property at 10 Barbar Road. Um, the applicants applied to the board for permission to modify an existing non-conforming dwelling by
rebuilding an existing garage and constructing a second story addition above the garage and to maintain an existing non-conforming front porch requiring a front yard variance relief as well as a variance to expand an
existing non-conforming structure. that application for the reasons set forth in the resolution was approved with our standard conditions as well as a condition indicating that that the applicant shall submit a lock grading plan to the satisfaction of the township engineer. >> Okay. Board members, any questions,
comments? If not, entertain a motion. >> Motion to approve. >> Thank you. Have a second. >> Second. >> Thank you. Roll call. >> Mr. Goldberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Trackenberg. >> Yes. >> Mr. Williams. >> Abstain. >> Miss Ben or Mr. Mr. Venois. >> Yes.
>> Mr. Kramer. >> Yes. >> Mr. Woodford? >> Yes. >> And Miss Simmons? >> Yes. >> We are up to public hearings. >> Yes. Do you want to make an announcement on that? >> Yes. So, um, as you can tell, the board's agenda is rather full this
evening. We are not going to hear applications filed by Andrew and Kelly Given for nine Norwood Court. We are not going to hear the application filed by Joseph Messer for property at 286 Mendum
Road. We are not going to hear the proper the application filed by Nwood Holdings for 40 Nwood Drive. And we are not going to hear the application by David, I'm sorry, by Glenn David uh for property at 9 Westminster Place. Each of
those applications will be heard at the board's next meeting on March 23rd at 700 p.m. in this room. And there will be no further notices from the applicant. Okay. Okay. >> Okay. There's all my neighbors.
I told most the woman in the middle It's right there. >> I'll have to look at those applications. There was a pretty good turnout. I don't know. They just I told you neighborhood was showing up in
Okay, we got to do the short one first. >> Okay, I want to call um next we're going to hear uh BA-23-25 Shauna and Nicole Freeman for block 9403 lot 2 15 Nichols Road in RA 25 zone. Uh
Mr. Kirback, can you read out the >> Sure. The applicant proposes construction of a one-story addition over the existing footprint of the house, creating a front yard setback of 52.8 ft along Nicholls Road where 60 ft is required.
>> Okay. Where are Mr. Nichols? Okay, here he comes. Good evening. >> Can we have your names and appearances for the record, please?
>> Okay. The microphones. >> It's off. >> Yeah. Just >> there. Nope. Turn it on again. Turn green. There you go. >> There you go. >> Sean screaming. >> Okay. All right. Would you both please stand and raise your right hand? And I'm going to ask you to stand and raise your
right hand, too, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you'll get to this board will be the truth? the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help you guys. >> Yes. >> And and just for the record again, your names. >> Yeah. Douglas Miller from AHM Architects. >> Sean Green.
>> Okay. >> The board planner. >> Yes. >> Okay. You're seated. Um and who's going to talk testify first? >> He's just going to say a few words and then I'll give the testimony. >> Okay. Great. Thanks. Um, my name is Sean
Freeman. As I said, my wife Nicole Freeman and I and my two kids, Rashad and Nia Freeman, have lived in Morristown for eight years now. We've attended Calvary Baptist Church in Morristown for 25 years, which is how we got introduced to the town. Um, and
we're looking to expand our home to accommodate more space for our family. My mom is aging, so we want to um prepare the home for uh to take her in. Thank you, Sean. >> And thank you for having us. >> Just just we have to follow protocols.
Anybody have any board members have any questions? Any members of the public have any questions of this with with us? >> Okay. >> Yes. Good evening. Uh thank you so much for taking the time to have a special meeting. I know we've been snowed out the last few times, so uh this is nice.
Um you want to be >> Yes. Would you please uh review for the board your professional background and educational background, please? >> Yes. Joseph Noah from AHM Architects. We're located at 281 Main Street in Milburn, New Jersey. I haven't had the
good fortune of making a presentation with this board, but I've made numerous presentations to a lot of the boards in the surrounding communities. I've been licensed since 2001. Uh, and my license is extended. >> Okay. Thank you. You may proceed.
>> Yes. Thank you. Yeah, as Sean said, he came to me with a goal of improving the house for a growing family. We originally worked together back in 2017 when they purchased the home. Um, it was a ranch built in about 1955. Um, and really nobody had done anything
to it. So, we did some small modifications to the inside to make a nicer kitchen and a little bit more open floor plan, but as their life circumstances have changed, we're seeking to expand the house uh to add a second floor over a portion of the first floor. So, I think we have some exhibits
I can pull up and kind of go through the plan. >> Sure, that'd be great. That'd be wonderful. >> Okay. >> You have hard copies or we just putting them on screen? >> I have hard copies or we could do the screen. Whatever. >> Well, um hard copy for the file would be Great. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you can hand that up to
me, I'll mark it. >> Yeah. And I could set up on a tripod. >> Yeah. Fine. Mr. Freeman, while we're waiting, I um want to let you know that I'm familiar with Calvary. >> Okay. >> Baptist church. My my wife attends it. >> Okay. >> Not going to hold it against you.
>> It's how we got introduced to the town. So, yeah, we've uh we've been coming here. It's actually the first place we were introduced to in Jersey. My wife is from Maryland. I'm from New York. Okay. And we settled in Morristown. So, it's been a great home. Good.
And so the architectural plan is what we have already. Correct. Is there any modification to that? >> Plan is exactly the same as what? >> So we're not going to mark the plan. >> Correct. >> You have a photo board. >> Yep. I see. Yeah. Look. So, we'll mark
the photo board A1. Why don't you just give us a brief description of uh what that is as you put today's date on there, please? >> It's a series of photos as well as some Google aerial imaging and mapping. Uh
photos were taken by me on 22926 of the surrounding community and the aerial photos are pretty recent from uh Google Earth. Okay. So, so thank you. Um, yeah. So, our lot is approximately 155 uh by 153.
Uh, the corner property ranch house 1955. The lot area is 23,497 ft. It's located in the RA25 zone. Um
the front yard setbacks along both streets Nicholls and Cromwell are both existing non-conforming. Along Cromwell is 51.6 where 60 ft is required. Along Nicholls it's 50.3 where again 60 ft is required.
We also have an existing non-performing sideyard which would be this side of the project here to the south. Uh adjacent to 11 uh Nichols Road. Uh we have existing non-performance setback of 22 ft where 25 ft is required. We also have
a existing nonerforming rear at 33.35 required. All other aspects of the lock are conforming. We were only requesting one seat bearing for front yard setback at Nicholls and that's for a second floor addition over the existing first
floor and the right side of the home. We're actually asking to improve that from the existing 50.3. We're pushing it back 2 and a half ft to 52.8 ft. Um, and I feel this project would qualify for both C1 or C2 arguments. And I'll go
through the plans and I'll come back to the variances, the variance at the end. Um, the site there's only a couple changes to it. We're altering the patio, expanding it with a walkway to the drive, and we're also adding a deck at
the rear. Both of these are performing grabbing a portico here at the front over the existing front stoop. That'll have a set back of about 55 ft. But my interpretation of your awareness and understanding is that a portico built over an existing front stoop is uh
permitted without bearings relief. So wanted to bring that to your attention. Um and this crocheted or hatched area, it represents uh where the addition is going to be placed in the home. It's on the right side up over where the bedroom levels are. The left side of the house
is primarily the living spaces and the garage. You can see we're pulling it in from the uh front hand side there. the market. You can see the score here. The change
we talked about with the other floor is the addition over the existing basement there to provide access to the second floor. The second floor is all new uh consists
of basically a primary bedroom suite with a bathroom and area office space and you can see here dash line represent the first floor. So on the right side we're pulling it in 3
forming. So we do not need relief. We just need varance relief for this small section here which is uh over step back. >> Okay. So, let me just look at that for a second. So, that sideyard is at 25 ft from your second floor. Yeah.
>> Okay. Cuz on the plan it shows 22, but that 22 is to your front as your first floor, >> right? Yeah. First floor is at 22. So, that's existing non-conforming. So, when we went up, we pulled it in. So, we wouldn't need that. >> Okay. >> Yeah. If you look back at the first page
uh with our site plan, we dotted in line. >> Yeah. >> And the house is kind of neatly sighted on the property. But we're really just asking for relief. I don't know if you can see it. It's just this tiny area here in the front. Um which is over that
required 60 front yard. Next page are are the existing elevations. It's it's a really beyond descript house. We probably driven by thousands of these, not only in this town, but in all the surrounding communities. It's a
fairly typical ranch style home, very typical floor plan. Uh very nondescript. Uh next page shows the sides. And then uh this is the proposed and what we're proposing here. Um this
is really the area of the addition. Uh what we're trying to do here is really create something a little bit more uh interesting while creating a space for my clients. This is the portico we talked about. You can see this is where we're pulling it in on that right side
that set back. I think we're creating something a little bit more attractive, something that really enhances the curve feel, something that my clients will really be excited about the house, make their house more unique and make it more their own. We're also upgrading the aesthetic on the outside by upgrading
the materials. We're adding some stone, some platform, some cement board siding. Uh, and then the next page is the side elevations. On the left side, there's no change. You just see the addition in the back. And on the right side, you can see we've really tried to minimize any new
fenestration, any windows on the second floor. So we just have one small window on that level to not only allow my client to have privacy but also the neighbor so we don't feel like we're looking on to each other. Uh I'd like to also talk about the
neighborhood and some points about the community as a whole. Um so these are the this is the way the house looks now and these are interesting photos. This photo was taken from me and you can see our house and adjacent house
at 11 Nickels. And then this is a a summertime view. So you can see there's a lot of mature foliage between the two houses. Really creates privacy for for them both. And the one thing I like to point out is the way that this community was developed. If you you drive around
all the houses along Nicholls, they're all very orderly. They're all kind of in a line, you know, all have very similar setbacks. But the developer who did this whole community said, "Hey, you know what I'm going to do on these corners? I'm going to turn all the houses on an angle. I'm going to face the
intersection." And in our case, our house is rotated um uh clockwise and the house across is is rotated counterclockwise. So, they're both more towards the intersection of Nichols and Clawwell. And unfortunately, you know, while it makes a a a break in the
streetscape and creates a little bit more interest in the corners, it presented a hardship which gave us these existing non-conformance setbacks. You have, you know, an existing non-conforming setback and it's really just that right front corner because that's where it's rotated and pushed
over that front n setback line. I also uh you know took some measurements from the houses as you go down nickels and you know it's going to be an approximation because I'm measuring off the curve. You know I don't have surveys of the other houses but it's calculating
what their setbacks would be from what ours would be from the street. They average about 55 or so. So obviously less than the 60 foot required. So I would say that uh less than 60 is pretty typical. Uh 11 Cromwell to our right is
a little bit closer sorry a little bit further back and number nine is much closer to the street. Um so even though there is uh some sort of consistency they kind of push and pull you know 5 to 8 ft from one another. Uh so what we're
asking for it's not really consistent with the community even though we are asking for a deviation. So I feel these variances can be improved without impacting the neighborhood because uh the benefits of what we're doing I think really outweigh the detriments. Uh we're
not creating these non-conformities. Uh we're trying to work with them. We're asking for a small vertical intensification of the existing non-conformity but at the same time we're improving that by pulling the health back 2 and 1/2 ft. And then again
if you look at the aerial image we have no neighbors to the back. The rear is route 24. So we're not really impacting anybody there. Um the other two sides are streets, streetscapes. So we're not impacting anybody there. And the only neighbor we have is really 11. And again
with the mature foliage and the way that our vision is turned away from them, we're not really impacting them at all. And we're also the northernmost house on that block. So we're not impacting light, air, and open space because we're not casting any shadows on those homes.
Uh so overall I think the scale of this is very appropriate for the neighborhood. It's a ranch but there's a lot of houses throughout the multi-story. Uh it improves the character of the home, improve the housing stock. Um like I said, preserves the light air and open space and will
conform to all other requirements of the zone. I think what we're doing is not really a detriment to the zoning plan of the township. So like to open up to any questions and >> board members, any questions? >> Seeing none, hearing none.
>> I just have a comment. >> Sure. >> I like the architectural work that you've done. >> Oh, thank you. >> Me more of that in this town. Any members of the public with any questions of this witness? Seeing none, hearing none, close the public portion.
Okay. Any members of the public want to speak on this application? Seeing none, hearing none. Do you have any final comments? Are you >> No, thank you for your time. >> Okay. Oh, I looked at this right away and I said yes. Uh I've familiar with
the neighborhood. I've lived in town for 60 years. Uh and uh we actually looked for a house in this neighborhood at one time. Put in a bid on one but didn't get it. But um
uh it'll improve the neighbor, it'll improve the house tremendously. You're not impacting the neighbors at all. So I'd be all in favor of this application. But I can hear from any other members. >> I'm in agreement with you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to make a motion that this
application be approved and move forward. >> All right. Uh do I have a second? >> I'll second it. >> Right, Mr. Kerpat? Roll call. >> Mr. Coberg. Yes, >> Mr. Trackenberg. >> Yes, >> Mr. Williams. >> Yes, >> Miss Simmons. >> Yes,
>> Mr. Benis. >> Yes, >> Mr. Kramer. >> Yes, >> and Mr. Woodford. >> Yes. >> Thank you very much. You're welcome. Good luck. >> Good luck. >> Good luck. >> Thank you. >> And a nice presentation. Nice, >> concise. Thank you for that. Yes.
>> Yes, please. We will have a resolution at the next well the next meeting in two weeks. So maybe at the next if not the normal next meeting is whenever that is April. Okay.
Next we have BA-04-25 continuing hearing on 383 South Street LLC. Warriors, please. >> You're supposed to think not let steal it. mess back here.
>> I'm not looking anymore. I don't look at all don't don't bring our attention to it. We won't be able to concentrate. >> Terrible. >> Okay. >> So, where are we, Mr. Cali? Why don't you give us a summary because it's been a
while. >> Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, good evening everybody. Mr. chair, members of the board, for the record, Larry Cali, on behalf of the applicant, 383 South Street LC. Um, it has been a while and we appreciate you continuing the matter tonight. Our intent is, uh, as it's
been, you know, every time we've appeared here recently, is to try to conclude. We've got a very limited deck that you'll hear from, but procedurally, I think the objectors are are continuing to conclude with their final witnesses. But what you hear from from us tonight, Mr. Chairman and members will be uh a
limited recall of civil engineering testimony in response to a very limited and targeted item we heard during the last public hearing from our objectors uh retained engineer. Um we then will have uh initial direct testimony from an
acoustic witness who submitted a very limited memo to the town on February 12th which is in the record. Um and our witness uh Mr. Mueller who's an acoustic engineer will swear him in. will qualify him. He will briefly go over the benefit of the summary and conclusions of that
memo in support of the application. At that point, I think we're going to conclude. You've heard from our full complement of witnesses to date, our operations witness, from the Brewan family. You've heard civil engineering to conclusion from Fred Stewart. We've had traffic engineering and parking
analysis uh suitability study from Craig Paraggoy of Dynamic Traffic. We've had full architectural testimony to a conclusion. and you've heard planning testimony to a conclusion including all of the proofs offered in support of the variances. We then turned it over to u our neighbors to present their case and chief which started and that's where we
last left off was our neighbors case and chief. They went to and through their civil engineering testimony. Um they had a tech issue with their next witness I think and I think that's where we last called it a day I believe in October Mr. Chairman. So um my recollection is uh
the next step of the process and I will defer to Rich of course is uh our objector will continue with their case and chief. Uh we hope that they conclude as expeditiously as we prosecuted our case and chief. We'll have a very limited recall. We need about 15 minutes total Mr. Chairman on our recall and
then we're done. >> All right. >> Mr. Rosenbach is here. >> Yes. Um uh subject to one thing. Would you just use the microphone, please? Yeah. I have one slight disagreement as to who
we are and also um I have a a question although very short question. Slight disagreement is we're actually in the middle of two witnesses. Uh we did not finish Mr. Viera because of the technical problems and we actually never finished uh the engineer Mr. Chet. Uh so
once we start I'll start with Mr. Vieira and then we will continue with Mr. I gave the board a table of contents of who our other witnesses were going to be. If you want me to repeat it I will because it's been a long time. >> Uh yes please for the benefit of the public please. >> Sure. Um, I won't worry about names for
the moment, but but we have a civil engineer. That's Massachusetts. And then we're going to have a a wetland specialist. And then we're going to have an acoustic engineer. And then finally, we're going to have our planner. And at that point, he will be done. Uh, now my short request is this. There is I don't
know who she is. I've never spoken to her, but it has come to me that there's someone here who would like to be able to put her comments on the record before us because she will have to leave probably before we ever finish. Uh and and I have no objection to it.
>> I would rather have them in order. Uh especially if she's going to make comments, she should hear all the testimony. Uh, at least that's my my gut because I this is getting fractured already and I want to try to unfractured it as much as possible.
>> I I promised I would make the request. >> Okay. What do you think? >> Well, I I think we're up to the objectors part of the case and you know, if Mr. Rosenbach wants to step aside so another objector can have something to say because they won't have that
opportunity to do so later tonight >> then you know I mean it's a little out of order because we're just going to cut her in but I think >> we can do it >> it's not inappropriate. >> Okay. You don't represent her correctly. >> No I haven't spoken to her. As I said I don't know who she is.
>> Okay. >> So we'll all be surprised. >> Okay. >> Is she here? >> Is she here? What's her name? >> Okay. >> All right. >> All right. >> Any objection, Mr. Cali? >> No, sir. >> Thank you.
>> Oh, you know, there is one other thing while you're coming up. Our board engineer is not here physically here today, but I thought he was going to tie in on Zoom. We have him. >> I'm president on Zoom. >> Okay, good. Thank you, Jeff.
>> Thank you. All right. So before you start, I am going to swear you in. So your statements will be under oath. Okay. Would you would you Yeah, thank you for that. Would you raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth? I hope we got >> And can we have your name, please? >> My name is the microphone. >> Is the mic on? >> I don't know if it's on. Is it on? >> Might not be on >> the button on the bottom.
>> I might be a little bit nervous. So, please excuse me. >> Yeah, it's >> Hello. Hello. >> Maybe my voice is too slow. >> I don't think it's on. It isn't lit up at the bottom. >> We always had a problem with that mic. >> Hello.
>> There you go. >> Okay. Hi. >> Thank you. >> Good good evening everyone. Um I'm here my name is Eileen Vasquez and I live on 20 San Hill Road and uh yes I do live in Morristown and
not Morris Township. So I do um I'm here on behalf of those people who can't be here today. Um people who are taking care of their sick husbands, people who are in hospice. Um, so, um, I'll make a long story short. Um, I moved here about
five years ago from Jersey City. I'm a city girl. Um, my mom developed pancreatic cancer and, um, we live in Jersey City. We lived in Jersey City for over 40 years. And, um, my mom got
really sick. um she had jaunted and uh I had to take her to a hospital and um they told me that she was only going to last four months. They told my brother she was going to only last 4 months. They told me she was going to last 6 months. Um I had no choice but to do
research and try to get her the best help. I didn't want to lose my mom. Pancreatic cancer is a very bad disease. I mean, it's the silent killer. Um, so I got her into a hospital. Um, they did a procedure called the Whipple procedure.
It took over 12 hours for her to get it. Um, as I was waiting for her, you know, the Whipple procedure is a procedure that they do for pancreatic cancer where they take a bunch of your bad parts that has cancer. They take it out on the table. They take out the bad parts and
then put all those pieces in. My mom had a scar from left to right. Um, so, um, I had to do everything quickly because we couldn't waste time. So, she was going through her operation, uh, 12 hours. It
took more than that. Um, it took over 12 hours. While I was home, I prayed to God and I said, "God, let my mom live for a longer time, right? I will do anything for her. Just give me more time with her." Okay? My mom successfully got out
of that surgery. Okay. I promised God I would give her everything she wanted. Right. So, um, my mom wanted to move out of Jersey City because they were pulling up pipes. It was very noisy, very dirty. Um, so she I went to school here,
College of St. Elizabeth, and my son went to Fairley Dickinson. So, she said, "I want to move to Morristown." Said, "Mom, are you sure you don't want to go to Puerto Rico? You don't want to go to Florida? You don't want to go to Missouri? You don't want to go any place else?" She says, "No, I want to move to to Morristown." So, I sold her house in
Jersey City all by myself um just to give her what she wanted. We moved here. She wanted to move here because she wanted peace and tranquility. Okay, that's something you don't find too often in these days, especially not in
the city. So, it's very, very hard. Um, I'm here speaking on behalf of those residents who can't speak because they're afraid to come here, you know, and I have a big mouth. I'm always talking to everybody, but I'm talking on behalf of them. There's a lot of people
who just want peace and tranquility. And I do respect the Bruins. I don't know them very well, and I know they have a business, but you know, can't we compromise? Can't I'm speaking for all of the residents here. Compromise. You
can have your cafe. You can have whatever else you want, you know, just not noisy parties. Not if you have every other business, give the people not the big parties because a lot of people here
that you don't know are sick. They need peace and tranquility. Okay? And it's it's I think all of you would agree you wouldn't want a venue when you come home from work. You want to just relax, right? You don't want to hear loud noises and all that. You just want to go home and relax. And that's
what these people want. That's what I want. My mom is no longer living. But you know what? She always told me to stand up for what we believe in. And so that's why I'm here. I'm here to stand up for my friends, for my for people who welcomed me into this Morristown, Morris
Township, Morristown, which I don't understand that coming from Jersey City because they fix one road or they fix one side of the road, but we're all united. We're all one people, right? I mean, can we compromise? That's all that they want. Peace and tranquility. I've
stood on their porch, okay? And one day I was there in in Bl's porch and and Eric's porch and I closed my eyes and you know what I heard? I heard birds chirping. I heard I a couple of bats I think I heard as well. I'm not sure. I
think they were bats. Hopefully they weren't bears because they are bears here too. I've witnessed twice. But, you know, um I I did that test just to see what is it that they hear and I I heard I understood what they're here. They're
here fighting for themselves, but they're also fighting here for everyone else who feels the same way. That's all that they want. And that's I've been trying to I come to the meetings all the time and that's all I wanted to say, but it goes too long and I have to take care of my dad who's at home. So, that's why
I've had to leave. But thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak with you and I I appreciate it and please listen to them because they are telling the truth and they just want peace and tranquility. That's all. >> Thank you. I just one second before you leave. Any questions from any board
members? I just have a question. Can What street are you on again? >> 20 Sand Hill Road. >> Sand Hill Road. Thank you very much, >> Mr. Cali. Any questions? >> No, sir. >> Okay. Thank you very much. Okay. >> And I'm ready to proceed. I'm going to
recall Mr. Bear. He's ready to swear. >> Yeah, I will swear him again. >> Raise your right hand, please. You solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So, >> I do. >> And your full name for the record again, please. >> Eric Vieiraa.
>> Could you spell your last name? >> V I E I R A. Mr. Vieira, your profession? >> I'm a hair stylist. >> Okay. So, you're a fact witness here? >> Yes, witness. >> Okay. Thank you. >> In fact, where do you live, Mr. Beard?
>> 18 Prospect Place. >> And how many doors away from the site is that? >> Three. Three doors down. >> Okay. So, All right. So, Mr. you were here. I guess it was in October uh and we ran into some technical difficulties and because what you were trying to do
at that time was show the board I believe a video of something. Am I correct? >> Yes. >> And are you prepared to do that now? >> Uh yes. I wanted to start off with a few things first if that's okay. Um I don't know if you guys would like me to angle this toward you or if you would like me
I didn't with all due respect feel confident in the acousticals that you guys had going on last time. they just weren't working. Um, so if it's all right with you, I can >> So, did we try to get it on our system? >> I did. I tried several times. >> I don't I don't mean last time. I mean
today. >> No, today I did not. No. >> Okay. Cuz our engineer is on Zoom and he's not going to be able to see this um because it's on your screen, not ours. Do we have a digital copy of it?
>> Can you email it to us? I the problem is with email, it's such a large file. I don't think that it's possible to email it. It's all on keynote. >> Zoom. >> Yeah. >> Shouldn't everyone on Zoom get to see it? >> Well, if they really wanted to participate, they'd be here. You can't
participate on Zoom, but I'm not worried about that part. I would just like our engineer to see it, but he'll listen to it. >> Screen now. >> If the camera If the camera stays on the current view, I can see the screen. >> All right. Perfect. Excellent. >> Okay. Perfect. And let me also note that
that this process of Mr. Beer showing it on his own equipment has been the subject of discussion with with the board secretary or board staff now for months. It it's not just something that he suddenly decided to do tonight. >> Yeah, I remember from last time that we had a problem trying to get it on the
system, but this works now. >> Joe, you can see it, right? >> And at the end of the day, I just didn't want to waste the board's time wasted. >> Yes, I can see it in a >> hurry to move things along. So, all right. So, let's just move things along. >> So, Mr. Bear, why don't you first tell the board what it is you're going to show them?
>> Um, I'd like to start off by showing um just regular garden noise, what it's like living, you know, uh, ever since the Bruins moved in, just conducting their business from a day-to-day operation. uh you know,
without them adding a coffee shop or an event space or uh retail store or any of the other events that they're already having, just a regular quote unquote garden center. Okay. Okay. >> Before you start, Mr. Mr. Chairman,
Rich, for the record, we should mark this as an exhibit to >> I think we did. That's what I'm I'm looking at. So, >> yeah, I don't >> um I have it as 05 from last time, right? There was a video tape taken by Eric Vieiraa on September 13th, 2025. Is
that what we're going to see? >> That's not what we're starting with, though. >> This is a different one. >> We're going to start with a few different ones. I I decided to change the order. We're going to work our way into that, but I'd like to start with something else first. >> Okay. So, then we're going to mark this as 08. >> Okay.
>> All right. The first one we had where we weren't successful in getting it to play was '05. Right. So, this one is 08. And can we authenticate them as we go? Who took the video and what was the date and time? Please. Thank you. >> And let me also say that um
after tonight, I know you might say it's after the you know the horses have run out of the barn, but I know that we can always put these on a dropbox and make them accessible. Okay, Mr. R is right. You can never email these things, but but we could do a Dropbox if that'll work if it's necessary.
Okay. So 08, could you identify for the board and for the record what what is now being designated as 08? >> Okay. So I'm going to start with this is Sunday, October 5th, 2025
at 3:37 p.m. And where is this being taken from? This is from my backyard. I'm just zooming in and this is just a regular Sunday at 3:30 >> and have you >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Could you either
play the noise or >> I'm sorry. Okay. >> I was just a quick >> I was going to ask you and I want you to be very clear to the board. Have you tinkered with the sound level at all in this? >> Nope. Nothing. And then this is on um
this goes up to um I believe 100. This is at 35 right now. >> Okay. >> All right. And is that the entirety of 08? >> Yes. >> Of this uh this exhibit. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> They're not that long, but just to give
you a little quick, you know, synopsis of what I didn't want to drag it out. >> Okay. What's next? >> Okay. So, this is uh Tuesday, October 7th at 11:33 a.m. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Rich, is that 09 or is this all 08?
>> This is all 08. Yes, it's it's I'm considering it one and then we'll just have subp parts in terms of what the dates are. >> Okay. >> So, now we're at Monday, October 13th at 10:30 a.m. Michael Bruin waving. This was just 36
hours after they had told us that they had not taken down any trees on October 27th. Wednesday, October 29, 36 hours after Cali and the Bruins insisted they hadn't taken down any trees. They're
picking them up. You can see looks like they're almost moving them into a dumpster. Wednesday after the 29th, 12:00 p.m. Same day. Again, hiding all the evidence as fast as possible. A substantial amount of trees were taken
down. Substantial, December 1st. If nothing else, we hear blowers going constantly daily. At least six or seven blowers going at the same time. lighting. I understand that there can't
be anything done with lighting, but it is lit up like Magic Kingdom. This is at 3:37 in the morning on November 13th and it's like this every single night all night long. It's just blaring all kinds of light. I had to get
special shades for my windows. Our bedrooms face the ruins. So now we had to get special shades just to block out all the light that comes up Prospect Place. This is from John's house. He has all kinds of light coming toward him. >> What is John's address?
>> John is right next door to me. So, he's uh 20 Prospect Place. Uh this is a friends and family event that they had on Saturday, May 3rd. They've had several events, even though I was under the impression from that meeting that we had prior to October
27th that they weren't supposed to be having events, but they continue to have them. All kinds of food and moving on. Okay, so now we go to Saturday, September 13th. The date of the video that I was moving on to, we have not
gotten to that specific video yet. This is the beginning of that evening. This is at 6:33 p.m. Before, stop that for a second. Before you start the video, explain to the board because we we can pause you not to speak over the video.
Explain to the board what it is that they're that that they're going to be saying. And if you have to stop it, if you pause it from time to time, do so as well. >> Okay. Uh basically, this is uh the parking lot right across the street. Um they had an event on September 13th. Um
you mean the office building? >> Uh yes, the office building. And the thing is that noise even on a Saturday, if if there's no cars in that office building, it goes it's a direct line. The way they have I'll show you that in a minute. the way they have their speakers set up and the way they
position their buildings, it becomes it creates a tunnel of noise that goes right across place and it literally directly it hits or all three of our houses like it go it's it's a direct aim right at John Peele's house and me and
John Meister next to me are are we're the we're the ones that that feel it the most. It's we're the loud we just hear it the most. It's loud and clear. So this is right across, you know, the street from us basically, but we hear it loud and clear. There's no buffer
anywhere to camouflage any of this noise. The people on South Street have buffers because there's buildings that are that you walk through, which you will see in the third video. And believe me, you hear that bass. Okay. Uh, moving on.
>> That was all from the parking lot, correct? >> Yes, that was from the parking lot, which is right across the street from me. We have some speeches coming. >> So, we hear announcements, DJs. >> This is something we don't want to hear. We don't want to hear DJs and
announcements. I'm sorry. Forgive me. We're here almost 11 years living. I'm living in my house almost 11 years. I've never heard this. I've never heard a party like this between all the time that I'm living here and now all of a sudden I'm sitting in my backyard hearing here comes Shannon now I met
Shannon in the second grade. You know I don't want to hear that. I'm sorry. And this is the video that I was trying to get to at the last meeting October 27th. I just want to pause this for one second. I'm walking up South Street. I'm
making a right onto Pear Street. Okay, it doesn't sound that loud right now. And this is exactly what I'm talking about. Pay attention to all of the structures that I'm passing. Okay, that you pass until you get past that yellow truck. When you get past that yellow
truck, that's what we're hearing loud and clear. There's no buffers whatsoever. So, that's what we're hearing loud and clear. And it's a substantial difference in noise. >> Excuse me. Make it real clear. When you're going on South Street and you're turning on pair, you're turning toward
Prospect. >> Exactly. >> Okay. Exactly. We're turning toward Prospect Place. So South Street isn't being impacted the way we're being impacted because you're turning on to Prospect and you're heading right toward our homes which are back here which are in direct line to this event space which
is right there where she's sitting for Okay. And that's here. Stop right there. Stop it. >> Did you Did you change the volume of your video? Of course not. Well, I'm asking. Of course not. Okay. It's a substantial difference. It's like it's
it's like boom. Because once you get past that, you hit that tunnel, those speakers are are coming in loud and clear, and that's what we're hearing. Keep going, please. >> So, now we move on to the next video called Sound Street Gardens.
A new reality. Seven nights a week until 10 p.m. Okay. Uh I just want to just show just a few different events that have been going on. Um this is uh Saturday, September 6th. Uh another
>> Why don't you describe them? >> Well, there's there's all kinds of different ones that they have. Uh this is uh there the other one was from one to four different kinds of music. Um let's see. This one was
This is uh Saturday lineup live. Let me back up. Saturday lineup live music in the courtyard. Music by Michael Brewan from 1 to 4. Yeah, it's a Saturday. Yeah, it's from 1 to 4, but again, we're hearing it loud and clear. So now I
can't sit in my yard ever in on the weekend when I want to sit in my yard. I can't enjoy my yard at all. That's it. Like everybody's outside. That's when everybody comes outside is in the summertime and I can't enjoy my yard anymore. That's it. I got I got to listen to
that. That's not right. I'm sorry. That's not right. This is another grand opening celebration. They seem to have a few. Uh this is uh October 4th, an invitation to bloom. Grand opening celebration, ribbon
cutting, 10:30, yada yada yada. So, this is uh an event. Thank you, Susan Crisco, realtor. What's good, boy? Now, for the record, am I correct that you have taken every one of these videos?
>> No, these videos I got online >> from them. >> Some are from them. This one is from Susan Presco, realtor. I had to do a little digging, you know, >> there's an identification issue with some of these videos then in that case. >> Yeah. I I thought the testimony was that
you took these vid so the video for example that someone was walking down the street. >> That's me. >> Okay. >> A lot of them are me. >> Okay. Why don't we differentiate between >> it's important for the board to know which ones you took. Okay. >> And which ones are from elsewhere.
>> Okay. So, which ones are from elsewhere? >> Well, this one is from elsewhere. This is from Susan Presco, realtor. >> Okay. Any others from Susan Presco? >> I'm sorry. >> Any others from Susan? >> Uh, >> besides that one. >> There was this one. One second.
>> While he's looking at these, Mr. Chairman, I'll take the position that they should be excluded from the record. We cannot authenticate if they actually were taken on those dates. We can authenticate they were not. >> I can authenticate them right now if I pull up Instagram. >> That's we understand. We we understand
we're just excuse me. >> Don't argue with him. He's directing his comments to me. When I want you to speak about it, I'll ask you. Okay. Um I understand your position that it's hard to authenticate something that's been
posted somewhere. Uh and I think the board can look at it, but has to realize that uh they're not from this witness. They've been posted elsewhere. So they shouldn't have the same impact as something that he recorded live. >> No, I think it's got limited evidentiary
value at best. >> Okay. I I agree. It's got to be downgraded. >> Thank you, >> Mr. Chair. I do have one question for Mr. Bear that won't affect that philosophical position either way, but can you identify the video as being from South Street Garden?
>> 100%. Yeah. >> Okay. >> And it's hashtagged all over the place, South Street Gardens. And once again, I can pull her right up. >> Okay. South He pulling it up on Instagram is not going to change anything about this argument. Okay. So, >> and on the other hand, he doesn't have to have taken a picture. He can identify
it, >> right? He can identify where it's been taken. He can't identify whether anything's been altered on the video >> and he can't identify the date. Can you see that? But he can identify >> Well, if it's post Yeah. He can't authenticate the date. All he can do is say, "This is what
This is one of Susan Presco's. This is May 3rd. And you can see there's >> Excuse me. Excuse me. So the court the court >> the court reporter cannot take down you and record the video at the same time.
>> So if you want to speak about anything, you have to pause the video. Okay. And you just said there's a live band. You can see it. Yeah. That's what you just said. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, this recording you did? >> No. >> The one? >> No, that was not him. >> Okay. That was not you.
>> That's Susan Presto. But it's on. It's a live band >> and it and you can see that it was right there. >> Were you present at home that day? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> So, you could hear this band also. Okay. >> I did hear it. Yes, I did.
>> All right. You can continue. But but when you continue, can we just stick to what you did, Mr. Roseber? I don't think we should give any credence to what he might have pulled off of Instagram. We don't know what was altered. You know, what who used the
filter, what something he took, he can testify to as to how he did it and when he did it. >> And I think in any event, we've made our point. Okay. >> Okay. >> How many more do you have left? Just like before, don't show any just how many more do you have? I I'm not sure.
>> Okay. >> How many hours >> is this? Is this yours? >> This is mine. These are all mine. >> The next one coming up. Is it yours? >> I think it's yours. Feel free to show me. >> Okay. So, just give me a minute. I'm working. >> Anything off of these?
>> So, again, this is this is the lineup that we were going through. These are just different events. I can go through them quickly. October 4th. Uh this was the other event. Susan Presco. We went through that one already. Uh this is the
this is again uh from the South Street Gardens uh website. This is a picture of their courtyard. Okay. And the reason why I'm using this as an example is because I want to show you that these buildings specifically, okay, are
creating an echo chamber. That echo chamber is aimed directly going right at Prospect Place. And that in the way is going directly up toward us. Now, if you zoom in just a little bit further, do you see that speaker right there? That speaker, okay, which they have
throughout, I zoomed in a little bit more for you. Those speakers are loud. Those are big speakers. They're loud. They produce a considerable amount of noise within that echo chamber. >> And where are they pointed? >> They're pointed right toward the center, which goes out toward Prospect Place.
Um since uh as of March 19th, 2025, uh well before they were ever approved for events, they were already promoting events. Uh they've been having events, all kinds of events. This is November 12th, December 5th. This is LearnFiligraphy.
Uh wellness. This is all from their own website. This is all from their own Instagram. Okay. Uh yoga. Uh December 10th. December 12th, holiday bow making. December 14th, I was under the
impression they were not allowed to have gatherings at all. Ho ho ho sherie, festive fringes, December 16th. December 17th, more yoga with a band. Uh, Japanese New Year wreath making
December 20th at 11:00 a.m. And then we get go back to August 17th. August 17th is when me and my neighbor John Weisserber took a walk behind our properties behind Whitney Avenue because we were trying to understand what they
were doing behind our properties. We kept seeing tractors going behind our properties. Okay. We kept seeing them pushing. We have a wet issue. We have a lot of water that runs behind our properties. We've had water issues for a very long time. I said at the last
meeting that I've spent close to $100,000 mitigating water and drainage because of that. They have been piling all kinds of I'll just go through it. All of their garbage. This is August 17th. They've been taking it from their property and just piling it all over the
place into the wetlands. This is all garbage that they've just been piling and piling and piling right into the wetlands one after the next. We were not on their property. No, we did not trespass Cali. Okay, we were well beyond
Whitney Avenue. Okay, and this is all garbage that has just been piled and piled. Now we're at November 16th. We did another walk. Okay, again past the Whitney Avenue right away. More garbage being piled.
Piles of dirt. More logs. Dead trees. Tires. All tires. Logs. More logs. If you look there on the right hand side of the screen, those are all logs. That's the rubber 16.
And now we get to mark just >> Well, not quite. >> Okay. Um, all right. Yeah. Because I have No, I have no further questions for you. But now the board and Mr. Kelly get to ask some questions. >> Mr. Kelly, questions.
>> A few. Well, very um Mr. Mier, are you certain that the video footage you have from October of 2025 was illicit tree removal and not efforts with equipment to plant equipment and trees and shrubs in the
field? Are you certain? >> Am I 100% certain certain? >> No, I'm not. But I can tell you one thing for sure. >> That's fine. That's that's fine. >> I can tell you that for the past 11 years, >> I never saw lights. And now I can see Atlantic Health as clear as the night.
It is so clear. I see all kinds of light in my backyard. And I never saw that before, ever in 11 years. And now I see it bright, bright, bright. >> You answer my question. I'm going to try to be very simple and keep it efficient because that was quite long. Um, the lighting, you said that it was
really lit up. It was like 3:00 in the morning. Was Are you certain that that's my client's light on my client's property? >> Sure. Cuz I walk my dogs at different times. And yes, >> you should review the site plans. That's a municipal light. >> No, it's all over their property. They have lighting all over the place. >> The light that you display to the board
in exhibit 08 is a municipal light. You can review the site plans. I know you've got a copy of that. >> That's >> Are you aware of Okay. Are you aware of any violations that have issued against my client, have been logged against my client, whether successfully or
unsuccessfully? Has there been municipal action to enforce anything relative to any of the noise complaints that you're alleging between, you know, September and >> that's irrelevant. >> I think why if somebody didn't make a
formal complaint, does that mean it's not doesn't exist? >> It doesn't. But but he's alleging that there's been unlawful activity on the site predating any approval of this board. I think that's relevant to an extent, Mr. Chairman. >> Okay. And uh >> he's either aware or he's not.
>> Okay. He didn't ask the question. >> September 13th and I went to the police and we filed a report because they were making all kinds of noise. Yes, >> I understand the report was filed against you as well. So >> that's correct. They filed a report because I was recording on a street, public street, Pear Street, and they said that I was trespassing, which I was
not trespassing. My next question is, have you under oath right now? >> Correct. >> My client has closed circuit cameras on their property. >> Correct. >> Have you ever trespassed? No, I have not. >> You've never trespassed on my client's property? >> Never. You can check my phone. You can check my phone. >> Just one. Let's back up again. Have they ever told them to stay off the property?
>> I can. Well, yes, but there was also trespassing on the property during nonoperating hours, which by definition is a trespass. >> Okay. Per streets are public street. So, if you stay as long as long as you stay on public. No, I'm talking about footage of peering in windows during nonoperating hours.
>> Peering in windows. That's a lie. >> Okay. At any rate, Mr. Chairman, we'll deal with this after. We've got we've got on the record. He's sworn in. This is beyond this form at this point. >> Every photo I say that >> if the applicant contends it has closed
circuit TV, let it show. >> Otherwise, let's quit talking. >> Oh, well, let's let's let's get back to the application. Let's let's get back to the application as opposed to all the collateral issues. >> Okay. Um >> we're not a municipal court. >> What was the last date you recall any
event occurring out there? It's from your own. Not from Instagram or Susan or >> Well, I don't know. We've had the worst winter, you know, ever possible. >> Wasn't my question. Why just just answer the question? >> The last one that I sometime in October. >> Okay.
>> But it's getting warmer quick. Because the reason I'm asking is because on one of your segments you overlaid your own audio saying >> I did not overlay audio. >> Well, there was audio saying this is seven nights a week until 10 p.m. >> Correct. >> That was you speaking, wasn't it? >> Yes, it was. You over audio. >> That was September 13th.
>> My point is you get a statement saying >> September 13th and that was them having a party. >> Have you observed you said on that video this is seven nights a week at South Street Gardens. >> This is the new because that's the plan for seven nights a week. That was what they wanted to do. Have seven nights a
week. That was their goal. Seven nights a week until 1000 p.m. That was the proposition that they were proposing. >> Yeah, that was night a week with alcohol catered by 1776. >> I I heard you. I appreciate >> I got it, too. I heard you too, Cali. >> It's You call me Mr. Cal or Larry.
>> Don't argue back and forth on a little trivial stuff. Let's stick to the facts >> in the application and we'll get done sometime in the next month. >> Yeah. Um, just to reconfirm for the record, several of those videos you tried to include into the record were not taken by you. You have no firsthand
knowledge of them at all, but for scooping them up off of someone's social media. Is that correct? >> Yes or no, sir? >> Yes. >> Thank you. That's all we have, Mr. Chairman, for Mr. Vieira. >> Thank you. Say members of the board, any questions?
>> Uh, yes. >> Okay. So, as far as I know, the town regulations regarding noise list specific decibel levels.
Now, I'm not a sound I'm not a a sound engineer, but I know that how loud something seems is a function of distance. And what the regulations are is specific
sound levels at your property walking around on Pear Street the levels which we don't we haven't heard a single sound level. Do you have any sound levels? >> I do not have sound levels now. >> Okay. >> But can I say one thing?
>> I I think you've said a lot, but go ahead. >> I've lived there for 11 years. There have been countless parties. all kinds of parties, graduation parties, bach mitzvah, bar mitzvah, weddings in
people's backyards. Never ever ever has it even come close to the level of noise that I have heard from the events that have been that have transpired from that property. Never. Not even a little bit close. And that let God strike me dead
if I'm lying right now. Okay, that's the God honest truth. But is there a I don't want to I'm not going to do a back and forth. >> I'm not going to do >> No, he's asking questions. >> I'm I'm not going to do a back and forth here. I'm just going to state maybe it is. I I'll accept what you
said. It's the loudest of any event that you of any noises that you've heard, but that still is not something that we can actually take action on. Well, they both have ACU both the objectors and the applicants have acoustical engineers yet
to testify. So, I think you can get into that a little later. But I mean I I think >> al also there's a question of does that apply in this type of situation where you have a commercial property in a residential zone because
we can set the standard as to what should be down the street what we've heard down the street as opposed to like what the official ordinances because of the this type of application. Do you agree or not Mr. Kelly? I I think the board does have the right to impose
mitigating conditions in the context of variance relief grants, but but the state regulations of title 7 are quite clear as to acoustic decibel level drop off measured at property line and 21 ft. So conformance is conformance, right? So just because it might be an entity
making noise doesn't mean that Mike can't make the same level of noise or vice versa. the the the the issue is that if you have a and I don't want to start if you have a residential neighborhood, the people down the street
have a like two parties a year outside. The guy up the street has a party, you know, once every six months. It's not a an entity trying to recruit parties and trying to fill their their ticket. So it's a you know one party two parties
that make noise people don't get upset about but when it's seven days a week there can be a different >> Yeah I I I again Mr. Chairman I agree that that the board can impose mitigating conditions which they think has a connected nexus to the relief sought to mitigate the impacts right
>> of the relief that's sought and if it's in the context of noise I I that is certainly a fair game issue. >> Okay. Thank you. I I do want to say something if I may which is it's not just a matter of mitigating the issue. I mean this board is going to have to determine whether we grant the variance.
>> I understand that >> and that includes the negative criteria which is to what extent is this >> okay we we understand that we understand what our role is. Okay. Any other board members with questions? >> Yes. >> Okay. Mr. Goldber. >> Uh Mr. uh Mr. Vieira. Correct.
>> Yes. Um, on the 817 video with where you showed all the debris and the landscaping debris and the garbage and stuff in the back, you claimed that it was on wetlands. >> Is that debris all still there today? When's the last time you've seen it there? Have you seen it there that been removed? Is it still there as far as you know?
>> I have not walked back there since. No, because they said that I was trespassing. They've called the cops on me twice at this point and and brought the same two clowns to my home, okay, for trespassing. the same two people they've called and said that I was trespassing, which I was not trespassing
on their property, okay? And literally all my neighbors come out and in 11 years that I'm living there, okay, I'm being harassed. 11 years that I've living I'm living there, I've never had a problem with any of my neighbors. And now all of a sudden, everybody thinks I'm a drug dealer because these guys,
okay, are sending cops to my home for trespassing when I've never trespassed. And >> don't refer to the police as clowns, please. I'm sorry. >> Don't refer to the police as clowns for coming to your house. >> Well, no. They're the same two people that keep coming to my house. >> Same two people or two police officers? >> The same two police officers. >> Then call them police officers.
>> Thank you. Um, and when you refer to them as wetlands, I mean, do you have I mean, and I guess we could get that data, but are they actually designated wetlands >> that the the the your assertion is that that to debris and landscaping debris and material and junk was never there
before, but now it's there. Okay, great. Um, on uh one of your videos, I can't remember which one it was. I think it was the one where it was you were trying to demonstrate the tree removal. Um, there was a little tagline on the slide that said, you know, hiding all the evidence
in plain sight. Um, could we see that? Is it okay to the board to see that video again? cuz I'd like to, you know, see what the those look like. Sort of um bare skinned long tree trunks that were, you know, it was hard for me to tell what I was looking at there in terms of
uh tree debris or you were claiming that those trees were taken down on their pro, you know, removed from their property or maybe they were transported there or >> No, there's just a >> there's two videos. this one and the one after.
>> Whose h excuse me, can you stop for a second? >> What building was that that just went by? >> This is my my house and I just walked across John Weissber's home. >> Okay. So, you're approaching the property line. You're approaching the property. >> Yes.
>> Okay. Thank you. This is my property that I'm on right now. This is my driveway. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, >> now the next one. Okay. Wait, you see another?
>> Yeah, that's Thank you. So, so you're you're >> So, the timing of this is a assuming we had a a board meeting on that Monday night. We're told no trees removed. So, you're saying within 36 hours this was the activity that was happening. Okay. Thank you very much. >> You're welcome. Thank you.
>> Any other questions from board members? >> Um, on those videos, you're certain that those were trees that were cut down on the property? >> Yes. >> And then removed being put into the the waste bit. So, they were logs, which
means they had to have been cut, trimmed. >> See, it's this one with Michael and James tools. If you look behind, do you see all those
logs? Those are big logs. They're big trees. Those are tall long trees right there. >> Those are not little trees. >> No. No. But someone had to have cut off the top and the bottom and and
>> you know that was all done there on their property. >> Yes. >> That was all done. And you're aware that was their property and not the wetlands in the back or >> No, that was their property. >> Transported from another property like there for reasons of landscaping business. I don't know. So, I guess we can ask your uh
>> we might recall one of the brewers after all of this. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Any other members? >> Yeah, I'm sorry. The >> you did say that there seven nights till 10:00. Is that what was going on or someone was suggesting they wanted to do
>> that's what I was told at that time was the proposition that they were going for. >> Okay. So, you didn't you haven't observed seven nights? >> No, I have not >> until 10. Um, >> but I was under impression that that was that that was the goal.
>> And then do you hear >> you mentioned that you see you hear blowers all the time? >> Yeah. Not now when it's winter with the snow everywhere, but the second that it gets warmer. Yes. They start very early in the morning, usually by 8:00 in the morning. And it's usually it's more than
one blower. There's usually five, six blowers going at the same time cuz they want to make everything really pretty. It's a 2 and 1/2 acre property and they're trying to make the whole thing look nice and pretty. So there's leaves. It's we're in the middle of the woods. It's residential. So they're blowing it all. They're blowing everything off
their property to make it nice and clean to make the courtyard nice and clean. So yeah, and they're they have all their employees going with the blowers, their gas blowers, and they're making a substantial amount of noise. So you can't sleep in anymore. And they're open 7 days a week, so it's even on a Sunday.
And how about um the machinery? Is that common or is that just for these locks? >> No, it's common. >> Do you know what the machinery is usually doing? >> I don't know. It's going back and forth. They also now that they do snow removal, they have all their snow removal trucks
there going back and forth all day long. Snow removal trucks parked there constantly because they have a snow removal company. So they have snow removal trucks going back and forth all day long. Now, >> so you're saying to your knowledge they're removing snow from private
clients elsewhere? >> Correct. And parking them back there 100%. >> Do you often see dump trucks in and out? >> Dump trucks. >> I mean, there was a dump truck in in >> here and there. Yes, definitely. And
they put that big um they have a big container back in the house. I don't know what's in that container, but it's a massive container. love that back there with some light on it. One big shining light shining away from it. >> And in terms of outdoor parties with the
speakers, >> the ones you showed, are they all somebody else's or some of them yours? Have you observed the outdoor parties? >> Oh, yes. >> And heard the music. I understand what you're saying with two buildings could make a
channel. >> It's a full-blown It's an echo chamber. those two buildings, the way they're laid out, the way they've designed that structure, it's almost like they were like, "Okay, you know what? If we build it like this, those people on South Street aren't going to hear it that much. We'll just This is the path of
least resistance." >> Well, I don't want to get into the reason the speakers are or where they are. I'm just wondering if you've actually seen some of the parties and heard the noise um seeing the parties and and or was that mostly
have you seen a lot of parties or just some and then other ones just showing from websites? >> I've seen a sub substantial amount of parties. Yes. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Okay. >> Um I think that's all I have. Okay. Any
other board members with questions? Any members of the public with questions of this witness? >> Yes. >> Okay. Turn out the microphone. You're not represented by anyone, are you? >> Okay.
>> Just your name, please. My name is Linda Detroio. I live at 479 Jockey Hollow Road. About 7 years ago, we moved to Marstown and I have a little house in the middle of 3
and 1/2 acres of woods. I am also an employee of South Street Gardens. >> Exactly. >> I do a lot of creative >> So, Larry, you represent the company that this woman works for. I'm going to rely on you to cross-examine this witness. I don't think it's appropriate
to have this lady who company is represented by an attorney ask individual questions. >> Yeah. I mean, she may be speaking as a resident. She's not speaking of capacity as an employee. >> Do you live in Morris Township? >> I do. 479 Jockey Hollow Road.
>> Okay. >> All right. Fine. Yeah. As a as a resident, not as an employee asking questions. Go ahead. When we moved into our house, it sat empty for 5 years. We immediately took down 40 ash trees. Over the course of
seven years, we took down another 35. Total about 80 trees came down. >> So, is that a question you have? Right now, we're doing questions of this witness on what he presented. The trees that you saw on your video came from my
house. My husband. >> Okay. So, there'll be a time when Mr. Calli can bring you up as a witness to explain that. This is not the time. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> That's fine. >> Thank you. >> Am I done? >> Yeah, you can ask questions, but Yeah. >> No testimony right now.
>> That's where the trees came from. >> Okay. Okay. Thank you. Any other members of the public with questions of this witness, not statements about the witness's testimony? Seeing none, hearing none, close the
public portion. All right, the next witness. character. >> So Larry, before we move to the >> Before we move to the next witness, I just want to raise a couple of thoughts as we're, you know, in the next 20 minutes, we'll probably take a break and
something you guys can think about in terms of conditions, right? One might be and and you know, the board has to consider this as well, of course, but one might be only the use of electric blowers on the property, right? As a means of trying to keep the noise down.
and and the other would be no amplified music outdoors, right? Not an answer right now, but something for you guys to talk about and consider. Okay. >> Mhm. Okay. That's good. >> We're going to continue with Mr.
and >> Swear again. >> You swear him. >> You raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give to this board be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So, help your God. >> Yes, I do. >> And your name for the record, please. Mark Chisvet spelled C H I S V T T T T T
T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T E. >> And I remind the board that Mr. Chisvet is a professional engineer and I asked the chair for some direction. Do I very quickly go over what we already did because it's been so many months or do I just >> You could summarize it very quickly.
>> All right. Uh, Mr. is that could you please using um your your I believe it was C1, C2, and C3 very quickly for the board just summarize what you've already testified to in that regard. >> Yes. My my testimony related to the fact
that my my opinion that uh the the proposed project does increase the amount of impervious area on the site more than a quarter of an acre and therefore should be considered a major development under the stormwater ordinance. And so I I I I uh presented
some exhibits. One was basically the the C1 which is I'm not sure what's on your screen. >> Yes. So C1 is basically the applicant's proposed plan and that shows the amount of imperous area. Uh that's >> Mr. Wester has a whole bunch of sets of
copies which you can hand out. Make it easy to >> Did we mark this before? We must have. Right. >> I believe so. I believe C1, two, and three were already marked. Our engineer can still see this. I hope so.
>> Thank you. >> Mr. Mr. Chair, while it's being passed, I just want to confirm we're going to get you new testimony because we heard the challenge of major development the last meeting. I'm just thinking about efficiency of the process, >> right? I understand. That's why it's a summary, >> a very quick summary. >> Previously, just for the record, we
marked C1, C2, C3 as exhibit 06. All right. So, um, these are the same, correct? >> They're the same. >> Yes. Okay. >> All right. So, so that's so we covered that last time
and and and when when your testimony ended, am I correct that the board engineer and you were having a discussion about what data the board could use to determine whether this was a major development? Am I correct about that?
>> That's correct. >> And since then, did you look at some data? >> Yes. Well, well, the board's engineer had asked me because the way the ordinance reads it, it refers to the increase in impervious area over a period of time starting from 2004 cuz
that's when the storm order ordinance took effect. So basically, it's written that way so that you can't phase a project in an eighth of an acre at a time and say I don't have a major development. It's once it tallies up to a quarter of an acre, it's a major development regardless of how how it's
incremented. So I was tasked with uh presenting some kind of documentation to show what existed in 2004. Um so I did some research on that and unfortunately I couldn't find a 2004 aerial photo, but I did find aerial
photos from 2002 and 2006 which are basically showing that the property hasn't really changed during that 4-year period. So my my exhibits that you now see have I've added C4, C5 and C6. >> Could you explain this is not summary.
This is new testimony. So could you testify? >> All right. So So I'm sorry but interrupt but so before I said we marked C's 1, two, and three as 06. But this this what you've just handed out, you know, encompasses more than that. So I think I'm probably better off let's just mark
this as the next exhibit number, right? 08. All right. So, this package that you just handed out will be the next exhibit number then. Do you agree? I'm I'm up to 08. >> I think 08 was that video deck. >> Oh, yeah. The video, right? So, now
we're nine. >> Right. So, this would be 09. >> And is this cover letter? >> So, like just for the record, right? So, we have 09 is going to consist of this package you just handed out of a Morris County Soil Conservation District letter dated November 10, 2025.
Sheets one, two, I'm sorry, C1, C2, C3, C4, C5, C6. Then we have a sheet with about 14 photographs and uh looks like a
a one larger photo of a portion of the plan. Oh, I'm sorry. It says map of confirmed disturbance and filling of wetlands and buffers. Is that OEX number?
>> It has an OEEX 001. Then we have OEX00.2. two, OE XZ3 and OEEXZ 004. So all of that will comprise exhibit 09. >> Right. And let you know, Mr. Roller,
that part of that exhibit, as you noted, from the Mars County Soil Conservation District. You'll note that the letter is addressed to me because again, after that hearing in October, I did an Oprah request. I I told the board I was going to do one and I did one and I circulated that the the opra request responses to
the board and to Mr. Callie. There's no surprise on them. So that letter and the next following page uh listed request for letter of non-regulation come come from the open request that I made following the last hearing. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Okay. So, getting back to to this new exhibit, uh it includes it includes several exhibits. This new uh document, uh C4 is a 2002 aerial photo taken off the uh New Jersey Department of
Environmental Protection's GEO web. Um and it's what they call a an infrared photo. So, that's why you see a lot of the areas that are reddish. So the green renders red in infrared image. Um just
so that um you can see it as a comparison on sheet C5. It is also a 2002 aerial photo from the same D website but it's a natural color. Now these these two these are the basically
the same two photos uh taken at the same time uh for D or under D guidance uh and they and they show the same thing but you can see in in the C4 version because uh the infrared penetrates through some
of the the tree cover that there are some vehicles parked uh in a driveway coming in from the south side of the site uh that you can't quite see through the tree cover in the non in the non uh
infrared photo in the in the in in a true color photo. So I I presented them both. So >> and before you go on to the next one, what what is your point of presenting these uh mirror image photos to to the board? Well, since the infrared shows a little bit more detail at the ground, I
I I did an area takeoff as to the amount of imperous area in that image and I used the infrared one to be a little more conservative on the on to to uh when I say conservative actually siding more with the applicant's point of view because it showed a little bit more use
on the ground and so the impervious area as it existed then is a little higher and not quite as visible on that on the second photo. And what impervious area does it show? >> Well, it shows uh it shows a pre-existing imperous area of of 32,600
square ft in that photo. And and comparing that to the 51,080 square ft that is shown on the site plan that shows a net increase compared of for what the applicant is proposing on their on their plans compared to what was
there in 2002. an increase of 18,480 square feet which is u42 acres. >> Okay. But that's from 2002, right? We want to focus on 2004 is what you're saying. Correct.
>> And since I don't have a photo from 2004, I my exhibit C6 is 200 is a 2006 photo. And you can see from the two photos comparing 2006 that's the C6 and
the C5 images that's b they're basically the same. So my contention is nothing really much changed between 2002 and 2006 except maybe positioning of some of the vehicles that were parked on the site. So my conclusion from that is we
can infer that 2004 was more or less consistent with what existed in these photos in 2002 and 2006. It would be difficult to to assume in my opinion it
would be a reach to assume that in 2004 there suddenly was a lot more impervious that disappeared again two years later. Okay. What else do you have to show the board? >> Well, I just wanted to I wanted to point that out, but I wanted to mention and I
I I mentioned in in my first uh uh testimony when I was here last time in October that um I'm doing all these calculations for impervious increases based on the plans that are formally
for the board for approval. But what is on the site is even more extensive than what is proposed in the plans. And that's that is shown. And just as as a recap, C sheet C3 was based on an aerial
photograph taken by by drone by a company out of East Hanover called Visionaire X. And that was from August of 2025. And that image shows that there's even more disturbance and more impervious areas on the site in August than was
proposed on the plans that before the board. So what is actually existing is greater than what has been proposed. And that when I say existing I mean existing now today if you walk out there. Um I will reiterate that um the
way the ordinance reads storm water management is based on the most conservative condition or the way it's worded in the ordinance the condition over the last 5 years continuously and if it hasn't been the same condition
over the last 5 years. You are to take that condition that existed during any time of that 5-year period that has the least amount of runoff potential and that's what's to be considered as quote existing unquote when you're doing an
analysis for storm water management. >> Mr. Before we go on, let's look at this a different way. I mean, of course, we're very interested in the what's technically to be done and what's technically not to be done, but what's
the practical impact of a site undergoing a major development, but not doing the necessary storm water management? There will be an increase in runoff off the site onto the neighboring properties or into into adjacent waterways. And
we've also have evidence that we presented last time we were here that there is often when it rains heavily those water courses that are adjacent to the site back up into the residential properties in that are nearby. And if
there's runoff that if there's excessive runoff from the subject property going into that water course that's already backing up, it will exacerbate the situation and cause it to back up further with higher levels of ponding than exist before the proposed
development would take place. It's a it's municipal ordinance that it's required that if you have a major development, you have to have mitigation. You have to do some sort of storm water management to either reduce the volume or reduce the peak flows or reduce a combination of both so that
your proposed project has less of an impact than existing condition. >> Have you reviewed the the application that's before the board? >> Yes, I have. >> And have and does that application include any storm water mitigation? >> No, it does not.
The applicant contends that they are exempt from the storm water because they are not a major development. >> Let's let's proceed. What else do you have for the board? >> Well, I want to switch to um a drawing
that's called it's three pages beyond C6. It is called OEXZ-3. And this relates to your OPER request with the uh soil conservation district because um the according to the response
on the OPER request, the applicant had apparently submitted some documentation stating that they were only going to disturb a uh total an amount of 1,188 square ft. Can you can you for the
board's assistance, can you can you let them know what we're looking at? >> Yes, we're looking at a response to your OPER request from the U Morris County Sooul Conservation District that's dated 808
2024. >> It's the request for letter of non-regulation. >> That's that's correct. >> And and this has a lot of handwriting on it. So, if we go down the left hand side, about 2/3 3/4 of the way down the page, it says area of disturbance. Is that is that what you're looking at?
>> That's correct. >> All right. And what number does it show? Disturbance. >> 1,188 square f feet. >> And is that something that would be filled in by the applicant or by the soil conservation district? >> Generally, it's filled in by the applicant. So if this form was filled in
in a normal way, it is the applicant representing to the soil conservation district, it's going to be disturbing 1188 ft. >> That's correct. >> All right. Is there anything that you have seen anything that matches to a soil disturbance as small as 1,188
ft? >> My opinion, the disturbance is in the order of half an acre, which is >> roughly 20,000. >> Yes. It's well over 5,000 square ft. And the 5,000 square feet threshold is when you need to have your soil erosion plan
certified by the so by the Mars County Soil Conservation District. And this exhibit I was just referring to shows aerial photographs from 2022 compared to a zone photo I mean a drone photograph
from u November 30th, 2025. Once again, also by Visionaire X out of East Annover. And in the uh image to the left of that page, >> and that's on the Z3. >> Yes, that's Z.3. In the image to the left of that page at
the low towards the center bottom, uh you can see building next to the word Pear Street and just below that, which in this in this photo, both of these images, north is to the right, so it would be to the east of that building. Um, you can see a large green area, uh,
lawn area with a couple of trees. And then in image to the right, you can see, >> and when is the image to the right? >> The image to the right being from November 30th of last year, uh, you can see that same area has uh, gravel and
some pathways and a number of trees that are on display. And that area alone is about 12,500 square ft. That doesn't even include some of the disturbance that's shown in the drone image at the northerly end or the I'm sorry the the
top of the page which is actually the westerly end of the property near Whitley Avenue which is a paper street and that's that's additional imper that's additional disturbance that's shown on this uh image that compared to what was there in 2022.
>> Can you describe that additional disturbance? It it it looks like uh it's hard to tell exactly what those it looks like uh either construction equipment um or uh debris. It's hard to tell from this from this area, but it there's a a
loss of a large uh gravel area that's not in the uh image to the left. >> And is the large gravel area is that immediately to the west of the buildings? Is that what you're talking about? >> That's what correct. where there seems to be >> almost opposite Prospect Place. >> Okay. Where there seem to be about like seven or eight cars parked.
>> That's correct. >> All right. That's not on the prior picture. >> That is not and that's additional disturbance as well that took place at some time between 2002 22 and 2025. >> All right. What else do you have to show
the board? The um the next the next sheet is just more u of aerial images um from 2024 and 2025. Um some are from Google Earth and some are from the the uh same drone
photography uh company um Visionaire X shows the progression of development on the property. >> For the benefit of the board, are you as an engineer allowed to rely on on Google Earth pictures? I I rely on it often. Um
it's images that are taken on an angle are difficult to measure areas off of, but you can certainly rely on the images to show what what existed on the property at that time. They are dated. >> All right. You have anything else? No, I just wanted to show that you wanted to
state that you can see uh the images on the left which are approximately a year older than the images on the right and you can see the different differences on the site and the changes that have taken place on that site over that year. Um does that complete your testimony
regarding your exhibits? >> Yes. >> And let me just ask you what I think might be just one final question. It's like a in a way a wrap-up question which is um based on the testimony that you have provided is the failure to provide a storm water
management system a negative to the neighborhood. >> Absolutely. Especially since they already experienced ponding at this time. >> It'll make it worse. >> I have nothing for >> Okay, Mr. Cali. We're going to have a recall of our civil engineer that's going to irrefutably dispute the fact
that we're not a major development. So, we're comfortable with resting now that that's continued the right test. >> Okay. Um board members, any questions? >> Good question. >> Yes. >> In slide C5,
is the impervious area in this slide only where these buildings are or does it extend? Looks like grassy areas to either side of the buildings in those in those dotted lines. I'm trying to
>> the dash blue line is the property limits. The property the lighter blue line is is the impervious area from the proposed plan that's superimposed upon the uh aerial image. >> Okay. Okay. So, do you have marked on
here the impervious area as of 2002? Are we able to discern? >> Not not in this image. This I I did that in the previous image which was the infrared version of this and I tabulate the uh the difference
between the two. All right. Lower left. >> So on C4. >> Yes. On C4. C5 was mostly there to demonstrate that uh it's I wanted a I wanted a true color version of C4 because because of the fact that it's infrared it's difficult to understand u
if you're not used to looking at infrared photos what the different colorations mean and to show that this pinkish color is is magenta is what it is the magenta color is actually green true green but it was infrared or >> so let's go back to C4 and answer the
question of what impervious coverage is shown on C4 32,600 ft. >> The 32 Exactly. >> But where on is there is there a line that shows >> the 32,000 ft? >> It's it's a little hard to see. It's
it's a light green and it kind of overlaps in some places. The blue the blue is the propose and the green is if you if you look uh to the left just where it says block 7307 lot one there's a little >> U tag there and it says 2002 impervious
area 326 that and that pointing to to green lines which you can follow around okay the the building and parking areas. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh, I have a question. Um, on OEEX 00.1 right after C6
those photographs, um, two things. First, that they seem almost identical to the photographs I think that Mr. Vieier was showing earlier. So, those are taken by him or were those taken by you or >> U, they were not taken by me. I believe Mr. Weisserber took these photos.
>> Okay. So, they're from Mr. Weiss Gerber. Okay. And >> Mr. Goldberg, what's the date of those photos? >> Because there's no date uh identified, >> right? >> Yeah. Remember this from last time? >> Do they have a date? Do they pick?
Yes. 25 >> 25 Okay. >> So the the Go ahead. >> That's a walk along the property line behind >> uh microphone if and and ID yourself if you're going to talk.
>> Okay. With the board's indulgence. Uh >> yeah, just to answer that question, right? >> Answer that question. >> John Weiss Gerber 20 Prospect Place. >> You took the pictures. >> I took these pictures. >> When did you take them? Because that's the question. Uh, I'd have to look at the >> You said October. >> It was October of 2025.
>> And you drew the arrows. >> Yes. >> And And that's for exhibit OEX 00.200.1 or both of them. >> 01. >> A one. And so you drew So those arrows, I guess, for the um
>> where the photos were taken. >> Where the photos were taken. >> Like the first photo to the right is basically showing the pile of logs in the back of the property. >> I get it. Yep. Okay. Okay, thanks. My question >> the next qu the next photo is actually the stake which is the back corner of my property. So I started the property line
and walked >> south. >> So for Mr. um were those that debris and those those items there were those they're both pointing to in sort of except for one or two of them into the rightway for Whitney A. >> Correct. Were those
were those used in your calculations for your square footage or your your 5,ou you know your half acre or >> No, I I didn't do I didn't take any uh areas from this exhibit at all. I didn't even prepare this exhibit. >> Okay. So, so when you were you were
coming up with your your calculations for disturbed area, they they weren't the right away was not included. >> Oh, no. the the uh sheets C1 through C6 are the ones where I measured areas and those are not taken from an angle.
They're vertical images and is able to uh correlate them to dimensions based on features on the ground. >> And in your testimony, I think I heard you make reference to both a quarter of an acre and both a half an acre. Is there a but do those do those um acreages trigger anything different in
terms of it being a major development? I thought I heard both of those referenced. I just want to make sure. Well, the halfacre is not anything that's specific in the ordinance. The halfacre was an approximation, but but the quarter acre is specifically stated in the ordinance. That's that's the
threshold. Adding an acre of impervious quarter acre rather of impervious area uh renders a project as a major development. >> Mr. Goldberg, if it'll help you. Um it is town, it's the land development code section 57-166. >> Okay. Thank you for just clarifying the
the numbers there. Did you make any calculation based upon uh the aerial photographs that you secured uh as to what actually is the uh uh disturbed uh area
the actual mean current condition? >> Yes. >> Yeah. That that's shown on uh C3. >> So that's based on the drone image. >> Okay. Right. And going back to Mr. Goldberg's question, did you add a
square foot that's outside the limit of the property? >> No. All these areas are are property line to property line. There there's nothing outside the property line that's in any of these calculations. >> So the cons constructed impervious area
is now 70,000 square feet. >> Yes. >> Okay. And in 2020 Ariel, it was 231. >> Is that correct? >> Yes. >> So that's a 2020 Ariel. Yes.
>> Uh so there's been an increase of um >> 51,080 square feet. >> Okay. I'm sorry. So you So there's been an increase of 47,000. >> Yes, you're right. >> Almost 47,000. And what is that an acre? 47,000 square
feet. >> Well, an acre is 43,560. So, it's a little about more than an acre was developed. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Mr. Chairman, is there a distinction being made here between impervious and disturbed? >> What What does the ordinance say?
>> Well, the the ordinance has two prongs. One is acre of disturbance and the other one is uh adding a quarter acre of impervious area. So either one of them would would consider it a major development. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Can I just ask one follow-up question? >> Sure. >> Um so
in that right ofway area that's depicted on the photos if there is in fact debris in there um based on the photos that are represented, what could you just speak to the um additional impact or whether it's a detriment or to to the storm
water runoff from that site or I mean I know it's not calculated in the disturbance. not calculated. I mean, it it I didn't take those photos, so I don't exactly know where where exactly within the right ofway those those that debris is, but if it impacts gutter flow or or blocks inlets, it certainly has
detrimental impact on the on the drainage in the area and so it would have impact on on the area. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Um, any other board members with questions? Any members of the public with questions of this witness?
Seeing none, hearing none. Hearing close the public portion. Uh where are we going from here? >> We're going to go to >> Okay, we're going to take a 5m minute break and then we're going to come back.
Okay, five minute break. like to recall to order the uh board of adjustment meeting for March 5th, 2026. >> Mr. Kurback, roll call, please. >> Mr. Goldberg
>> here. >> Mr. Trackenberg >> here. >> Mr. Williams >> here. >> Miss Simmons >> here. >> Mr. Benis >> here. >> Mr. Kramer >> here. >> Mr. Woodford >> here. Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Oh, and I'm sorry.
>> Oh, and Mrs. Plara. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Where are we now? >> We have a new witness. >> Okay. >> Has not yet previously testified. >> Okay. Case, would you raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this
board will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So, help you God. >> Yes, I do. >> And your full name, please? >> Darren Lere. D E R R O N L A capital B R A K E >> and let me advise the board just as a
heads up that Mr. Lre is a wetland specialist. He's here as an expert. I will qualify him and then he will be giving some testimony. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. U Mr. Lre, uh could you advise the board to begin with what what what your title is?
>> Sure. I'm I'm a a certified professional wetland scientist. The Society of Wetland Scientists in the early 1990s decided that they would start certifying the credentials of wetland scientists.
>> And what are your other credentials? >> Oh, a certified ecological designer. That's the American Ecological Engineering Society. And that is um a certification that I'm competent at designing e eco e
ecosystems and ecological components. >> You have an education in in ecology or biology? >> Yes. Yes, I have I have a bachelor's in biology with an ecology concentration. >> Any any graduate work? Yeah, I did. I took a couple of graduate courses at
Villanova University, but children came along and it became impossible to continue that. >> And when did you start your professional career? >> In 1987. >> And from 1987 through the present, which to me sounds like roughly 38 years. 39
years. >> Have you been continuously employed in this profession? >> Yes. During this time, uh, have you conducted ecological risk evaluations? >> Yes. >> Uh, and have you done wetlands delineations? >> Yes.
>> How many wetlands delineations would you estimate you have been involved in? >> More than 10,000. >> And have you personally reviewed uh the the site that is the subject of this application? >> Yes. And have you reviewed wetlands maps
concerning this application? >> Yes. >> And have you taken any other steps that would allow you to testify uh as a wetland scientist before this board? >> There might not be anyone. I mean, I'm asking you. >> No. >> All right. And based on what you've done on your experience and what you've
looked at, uh do you believe you are competent to provide a uh testimony to this board regarding wetlands aspects of this development? >> Yes. Yes, I do. >> With that, Mr. Chair, I I offer Mr. the break as an expert to testify regarding wetlands aspects of this development.
>> Accepted. Okay, >> Mr. Kelly, any questions? >> No, sir. >> Okay. >> Thank you. All right. So, Mr. Lra, could you tell us then uh All right. We we we've done for who you are >> and now could you let the board know
more specifically what you have looked at uh in terms of being able to tell the board something useful about wetlands on this site or off the summit. >> Sure. Sure. The move this over here the
>> Just one second. We've got a U. So, uh on the board, what do what do we have up there? >> Talk about those. >> We're going to hand these out and we're up to uh 010. >> Okay. >> As a package.
>> And what he's handing out is what's on the screen. >> Yes. >> Screen by screen. Yes. >> Right. Understood. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> So, Mr. Rosenbach, without getting into the specifics of each page, would you just have them identify what is now 10? >> Sure. Page by page. I'll be happy to do that. Uh, could you please do what the board attorney has asked and just go through page by page and just very quickly describe what each page shows because then we're going to go back over it.
>> Okay. So figure one >> and also where they're where they're coming from. >> Okay. Figure one is uh a 2020 aerial photograph with the GIS streams in blue and the green pattern or
wetlands that are >> I don't even need that much detail. I just I just want to know that. Okay. >> How about a date and what it is? >> Okay. >> Okay. An aerial photo from a date. Second sheet. Second sheet is um an LOI
that was prepared by Short Palma in 2006. >> LOI meaning letter >> letter of interpretation where New Jersey D verified the extent of wetlands on the property. >> And what date was that? >> That was on the LOI was issued on December 20th, 2007.
>> Okay. Let's go to the third sheet and again just basically say what it is. Yeah, the third sheet, >> an aerial photo, >> is an aerial photo. Again, I I stayed consistent and used the uh 2020 aerial photograph
and this is this is what I observed out there. I walked down, >> you'll get to it. >> Okay. Yeah. What I observed out there. All right. Um the fourth sheet, >> the fourth sheet is the site development plan where I've highlighted >> the applic.
>> Yes. >> All right. We'll get to it. >> Okay. Thank you for that. And then photographs. It's a photograph down. Is it Whitley Avenue? >> Whitney. >> Whitney. Whitney Avenue behind the property. I took this photograph. >> All right. And you took it because it
has the the pink >> Yes. >> marking. >> Yeah. and and yeah, we'll get I'm sorry. You have a date of this photograph? >> Um, >> if it's not exact date or rough date? >> It was the date that I did the site visit. >> Uh, October 27th, 2025.
>> All right. And then I think you have one more sheet. >> Yeah, it's just more photographs of the same two >> um another wetland flag. And then this is a photograph looking up the uh drainage channel. All right. >> And you took all of the photographs on
the same day? >> Yes, sir. >> Very good. Now, uh, is that satisfactory, Miss? Thank you. >> All right. Now, let's tell the board uh what these documents mean one by one. >> Okay. So the first figure and this is the first exercise that we undertake as
um wetland scientists in New Jersey is you go to New Jersey D's website and you pull up the stream layer which is the blue line on here and the green is the mapped wetlands based on their I believe it's 2020 aerop photograph
interpretation. So that's what they have decided based on their aerial photograph interpretation where wetlands and streams are >> and this is statewide. >> Um sorry one thing um you actually have if I may say four different types of
coloring. >> You have a streamline and then you have this blue hatching outside it >> and then you have a sort of solid light green and then a hatched green outside it. Could you explain that to the board? >> Yes. the the blue line that comes down.
The blue hatching outside of that is the 50-foot riparian zone and the green hatching is the 50ft wetland transition area. Inside of those two places, you're not allowed to
disturb the soil or the vegetation without a permit from the state. >> Okay? And I just want to make it real clear. >> This is not something that you've calculated. This is something you've taken off the D website. >> Yes.
>> Okay. Have you changed aside from drawing the red lines showing the site? Have Have you have you changed this map? >> I put in I I added the buffers to it and I can do that in GIS by just saying give me a 50ft offset. >> All right. So let's So let's let's be honest with the board. All right. So in
other words, you calculated the 50 ft on each side. >> Mhm. >> All right. And there be a yes doesn't work. >> Oh, sorry. Yes. >> And and is there any way in which it would be anything less than 50 ft? >> No. >> All right. And likewise for the wetlands
area you've calculated yourself 50 ft around around each around the border. >> Yes. >> And is there any way under any regs that that that transition area would be less than 50 ft? >> No. >> All right. No. >> Then please continue. >> Okay. And now on >> second sheet.
>> Here's the second sheet. I have to put my glasses on. >> So this this is a wetland delineation plan that was prepared by Shore Depalma in 2006. I put boxes around the dates in the
lower lefthand corner. The uh LOI was issued on December 20th, 2007. And this is the property that is immediately behind the residence and the
um proposed development. That's in blue. >> And and we have Whitney Avenue >> running diagonally, let's say, above the subject property. >> Yeah. And on this drawing, it identifies that the Whitley Avenue right away is 56 ft wide.
Um, I highlighted this just because otherwise there's lines and numbers on it and it's hard to distinguish what's going on. So, from this I added the uh 50-foot transition area off of the wetlands on the uh Whitley Avenue parcel
or Whitley Avenue right away. Um and and so the important thing to understand about these is they are the wetlands on the property. So it stops at the property line. They may in fact extend past that, but they're not
allowed to issue an LOI for anything outside of the property that you're asking the LOI for. when I can see there are areas on here where wetlands extend beyond what were what was delineated on
on I walked the uh the property to the north along or excuse me not the property I walked Whitley up north and it's all wet behind all of those properties there but that would not be reflected on this because that was not under the ownership of the people that
requested the LOI and let's Oh, I'm just checking my notes to make sure I Yeah, those are the points that I wanted to make from that one. So, the next figure is what I observed when I went out to the site.
By the way, before you get to the picture itself, let me ask you um is can someone with your training identify wetlands or is it a very technical exercise that requires all sorts of measurements and tests and things like
that? >> It's it's based on soil, vegetation, and hydraology. So, I have to be able to identify all the vegetation growing in there and say that it's wetland vegetation growing in there. I have to look at the soils and say those are hydric soils which are
wetland soils. And then I have to be able to identify hy wetland hydraology. You know where water stands, where water flows, indications that the area stays saturated long enough to then support the vegetation and to develop the soils.
>> So if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that with your training, if you're good at what you do, you can identify wetlands. >> Yes. >> All right. whereas I would never be able to. >> Probably not. >> Okay. All right. All right. I just want >> to be honest. >> Okay. >> All right. Why don't you please
continue? >> Okay. So, so what I found out there was we'll start with the blue line that comes down from the north side, >> right? >> And makes a right hand turn. Figure three. Yes. >> The blue line that comes down from the north side and then turns
to the east at a right angle. um that used to continue. But where you see the uh the the green brown solid area on this, that's all fill that was
placed there. So, it blocked that channel from continuing. And if you look back at figure one, it used to continue all the way across the rear of those properties. And you can and I could see evidence of it standing on the right of way.
on the other side of where all that fill was placed. >> So So do you have any opinion as to what happens to the water that can that can no longer continue in in that direction? >> Oh, it displaces it. >> So all all >> So this this would so wetlands are typically, especially in this case, are
low-lying areas that pond water for an extended period after a storm event. And during the winter when the groundwater table's high, it'll saturate all the way up to past the surface. um by placing this area fill here, it's it's um forced
that the water that would have laid in there off into other areas, including neighboring properties. Definitely. >> And those neighboring properties, do they include Mr. Ver's property or Mr. Wr's property? >> Yeah, it would it would block that water
from coming down. So let me so the blue line that goes along pair that is the water in that is flowing from east to west. So from the right hand side to the left hand side.
So the water coming down there now can't turn to the south and head down through the fill. So it backs up into the toward the north in the backyards of the neighbors properties. >> Wait. So, I I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm just trying to get on the screen
the the sheet that you're talking about because our engineer, remember, is >> kind of watching this on on Zoom. So, >> figure three. >> That one.
>> That was the prior one. >> That's the one we're talking about. >> Mhm. >> That's the correct one. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> That one. All right. So, I'll tell you what then. Why don't you for the benefit of the engineer actually go to the screen. Go to and just use your finger
to point what you were talking about about the screen. >> Go to the compare figure one to this. >> Yeah. Go to that screen because the other one because that's the one it'll pick you up. >> Okay. Yeah. So, this is the one that he's saying. >> Okay. So, um this ditch that comes along
here, the water flows from the east to the west. It would have, if we go back to figure one, he already saw figure one. That water would have would have um continued over into this area and been able to access this wetland to dissipate
the uh the excess water. Now, it goes down. It's blocked. It can't get around the corner and and saturate and uh flood this area here. So, it backs up into these yards. >> Yeah. And if I may ask you to point one
more thing or am I correct that this is so so you're saying the water is backing it's literally up on the screen I don't along along the rear of the houses. >> Yeah. And it's and it's going to cause
water to get back up to the south also because that that stream channel is gone. It's been eliminated. And this is this although although website shows a meandering stream channel, this is a
straight line excavated ditch that John Westover told me that they dug ditches and channels along the edges of the uh rightway back here at some point with the mosquito commission. >> The mosquito commission came and did
that to dry draining. It was not it was not the applicant when you said B. No. >> Okay. Let's be let's be fair. >> And then I could I could see from standing here that there's a uh this is the term that we use commonly as
a finger of wetland. So there's wetland that comes up in this part of the property. I don't know how wide it is. I just sketched that on there from what I could see standing. And then I did misspeak. This this is
the um the p the wetland pattern that's on here that goes to the property line. That's from the LOI. That's not from D3's website. >> Okay. Which is why it stops at the property line. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Because in real life it might or might
not stop. Probably doesn't. But in the LOI it's not as you Okay. >> All right. And then the next figure, figure four. Figure four is the um
applicants drawing. There we go. Yes, that's the one. So on here I'll point because the color isn't the greatest on the projected version. Oh yeah, thank you. Um on the draw on this drawing if I
I I do this work all the time. This is a wetland line. They're W and numbered. >> You talk about the green line. >> The green line. Yes. The green line. That's a wetland. This is a wetland boundary up here. >> The green vertical line. >> Green vertical line. This green line
over here with the sharp angles >> part of a >> Yeah, like a roof line. Yeah, >> that that's a wetland line. And then this is also a wetland line over here. >> No, pardon me though. When you say a wetland line >> delineated, >> all right. I mean, is the wetlands above
it or below it? Where's the wetland? >> Um, in this case, it's the the wetlands are on this side. This case, the wetlands are on this side. >> Hold on. This means nothing on your way what you're saying. >> All right. Sorry. >> All right. So for the green line that's at the top of the picture. Yes.
>> The white lands are to the north. >> To the north. Yes. >> All right. For the green line that's below the words pair street >> where it says lot one tax map. >> Yes. >> Right. The wetlands are >> are to the south. >> South. >> Yes. >> And then you have the vertical line that goes up lot three.
>> The wetlands there are to the east. >> And then you have your final one right on Whitney Avenue. >> On on Whitney Avenue. that one. The wetlands are to the south. >> Okay. Thank you. >> And then the red line I took and scaled off of this the best that I could
by measuring dimensions that were on this. This is approximately a 50ft wetland transition area. The red line that goes off of each one of the green lines and that goes and that's transition area into the upland next to
the wetland. Right. So, as before, you you measured 50 ft and your red lines are essentially parallel to the green lines that they match. >> Yeah. To the best of my ability with a with the drawing. Um the other thing
that I didn't have time to highlight, this is identified as a drainage ditch. When you say this, can you just explain? >> It's it's um so on lot three tax map >> to the west side of lot three.
>> Yeah. >> Oh, no, that's Yeah. Yeah. To the west side of lot three near that wetland line that we talked about is a drainage ditch. It's identified as a drainage ditch on there and it comes down and turns along Whitley and then there's a
head wall. So it goes into a pipe. This o this um the the green wetland delineation that's identified on the west side of the property, the southwest side of the property
that also has a ditch identified on there, drainage ditch. And then the same thing on the north side of the property. The dash double dot line that goes along there is a uh a ditch
>> to those significance to to this board. >> If if they are connected to uh state water to a stream if they go to a stream then they get a 50ft buffer
because it's part of the tributary system. But you already have a 50ft plus cover. >> Well, that's on that's on wetland the wetland boundary that's put there. It's not necessarily on the uh the the channel. So this is wetland. There's the other one's a riparian buffer.
>> Okay. But I I gather then unless you tell me otherwise, you have not determined >> if those drainage dishes are are connected to state water. >> No, I have not. And just remind the board again, what can a land owner or developer do in the
transition area? >> Ordinary property maintenance. You can cut brush and mow the grass. That's it. Any other disturbance of soil or vegetation requires an approval from the state. Now these are the uh sorry these are the
photographs my date is wrong on my notes. These were taken on October 27th, 2025. And it's it's hard to see on this. So, I'm going to point to the screen. This is looking
which So, I'm facing >> south south on Whitley Avenue. >> Oh, thank you. Yeah. Facing south on Whitley Avenue in the right of way. These are these are um I again I've been
doing this for a really long time. These are wetland flags on it. It has a number and a letter. So, these were delineated out here and it was noted on the plans that um I won't be able to read it with
my glasses. If if you look back at the applicants plans in the lower left hand side, I might be in the center. Wait a minute. But but who who actually put those wetland flags out there? Oh, yeah. It's right down. It's straight
below. It's highlighted in yellow >> on your exhibit. >> Yes. On exhibit four or figure four um by Kramer Ecological Services on March 17th, 2025.
>> And what is the significance of that flag? >> That they they've identified the limit of the wetlands. >> Does that mean does that mean it's a corner? Uh no it can be a point along the line but it it means that
to one side of the wetland flag is wetland and to the other side is not wetland. So in this case to the right hand side in the photograph is wetland and to the left hand side is
not wetland. And you can see I'm standing in front of it. Sorry about that. This is all soil that's placed. You can see it's filled up over the top of the uh stem of these trees. And unfortunately, it doesn't show up well
on this one. But there's another flag. And I want to make sure I point to the right spot. Oh, it didn't it for some reason it didn't print it. There's a Yeah, you can go back to that
same one in the background somewhere. I think it was right about here. I had it circled on the on it must not have printed the uh the comments cuz I circled there's another wetland flag right here. And if you draw a straight
line between those two points, this is fill, recent fill that's been placed out into the wetland. >> And and are you saying that even where it's not wetlands, it's a it should be a transition area? >> Correct. That's a >> And there should be no fill there.
>> Correct. No disturbance, no fill, no soil disturbance. Yeah. So this area should not have been touched and neither should the other side of it without an appro a permit from the state.
And then this is sorry the next one is the reverse looking back where you can see again where there's logs and disturbance and soil placed to the left hand side of the photograph and over to the right hand side there's
you know piles of debris and soil in the transition area. Yeah. And then this and then this one is uh the next photo next to last is just the debris and trash that's been thrown
back into the transition area and pass past that flag that's on the tree into the wetland. >> Okay. >> No. >> Mhm. >> You don't know who put the trash there? >> Nope. >> We just know it's there. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Last one.
I'm sorry. Yes. >> Let's go back to that. >> In order to put trash there, do you have to pass through somebody's land? >> Yeah, I think it Yeah, you you would not have been able to drive down
north and south on Wheatley Street >> on Whitley Avenue. You would have had to come in Pear Street to place this. There's there's no other road way to get in to do this. Okay. >> So, and there were no tire tracks. There were no ruts. There was no indication
that anything had gone down the right way. >> All right. >> And then the last the last photograph is of the uh all the vegetation removed from that what was labeled as a ditch on their
drawing. But I know from my investigation work out there back on figure three that that connects up with a uh mapped state open water. >> That does. >> Yeah. So those are connected to one
another. Therefore, they get a transition area and they're or not, excuse me, they get a riparian buffer. If that was just simply a ditch that went nowhere, you know, just a length of ditch, those
unless the drainage area to the ditch is greater than 50 acres, it's not regulated. >> Do you have any further testimony for the >> No, I think that co that covers it. >> Well, then let me ask you this. You know, we've got a lot of technical
wetlands and D testimony here. What's the practical impact of this as far as the board is concerned? >> Well, in in my opinion, the activities that went on out there are a violation of uh New Jersey state law,
but both the what is it? It's uh NJAC 7A freshwater wetland rules and 713 which are the flood hazard area rules and that is the uh riparian buffer.
>> You've already testified this would have an impact on properties including properties on prospect. >> Mhm. Yes. >> Placement. Okay. I have no further questions. So your real point is that if if what you just said were verified through the D that they could not build
the plan that they presented. Is that correct? >> Not without a permit. They would have they would have to apply for a permit. >> And in your opinion, could they obtain that permit? >> Unlikely. So, the um again, I've done
hundreds of permits. The um you typically only get a transition area waiver that allows you to go in and disturb soils and vegetation is if you need to do an activity on the other side or into the wetland to just get one
simply for disturbing a transition area. Every time I've asked, the answer is no. Well, could they transition the buffer areas? The transition area, >> you c you can. It's buffer averaging. >> Yeah, >> you can reduce it by 50%. Right. >> You can't make it zero. You can reduce
it by 50%, but then on your same property, >> you have to put that 25 ft somewhere else. >> Yeah. So, I mean, we're getting close to 10. I'd really like the board engineer to weigh in a little bit before we conclude tonight. But >> um I just want to point out to the board
that as interesting as all this is to us like if there's an approval by this board, it would be conditioned upon all required D permits and approvals, right? Um, so like if this board said yes, we
we grant this and you know assume there's 100 conditions, one of them is going to be you need you applicant need to go to the D and obtain um appropriate permits for for your plan. All right. Yes. >> And they couldn't build this plan
without those permits. Is that your understanding? >> Yes, that's my understanding. Yes. >> Okay. I mean just and I just want to point out to the board that the this board doesn't have any jurisdiction over any wetlands um related issues right we just approve the plants subject to other
agency approvals such as the D right and and I'll also point just point out to the board that if we if the board approved this plan subject to that um and and though that um permit could not be obtained by the D and the applicant was forced to change the plan the
applicant would have to come back to this board to make whatever modifications were required. That's your understanding. >> Yes. Okay. >> Yes, sir. >> All right. Thank you very much. It was very informative. >> Any questions? >> Very limited. Primarily, no. Because of
what Mr. Ola just said that the vest of jurisdiction is beyond the perview of this board. It's with the state agency, but just because of the optics of some of the images which which aren't, you know, terribly pretty. Um, a couple. Sir, are you aware of the date range when the applicant acquired took
ownership and control of this property? >> No. >> You also, I think, indicated in the testimony that you were not aware as to when uh your assessment and opinion as to the fill in the wetlands area and the waste in the wetlands area was
undertaken. Is that right? >> Correct. >> Okay, that's all I have to >> Can I Can I add one point to that? >> You answer my question. Okay. Okay. I'll ask a question. Is there anything that could give you a um
a probability as to when uh this debris was deposited? It it it was it was placed there after the current growing season because otherwise it would have been covered with vegetation. There would have been there would have
been seat in those piles of soil. there would have been gr not grasses but there would have been vegetation growing out of those that had germinated during the growing season of 2025. So it was sometime after the growing season really because
there's nothing growing out of them. >> Okay. Thank you. >> And Mr. Chairman, the reason I didn't go there is because we know the date range. We know it doesn't match what I expected that answer to be. So, but I I appreciate the question. >> Okay. Um, got a couple of questions. I'm sorry,
but before you do that, I don't want to lose the thought again, just to put it out there as a potential condition. um if there is an approval that if uh and you don't have to answer this right now cuz I'm sure we're coming back not finishing tonight but um if the you have
four minutes and about six more witnesses so no >> um the the debris that we saw as a condition to be removed right >> okay Mr. chairman. >> Um,
>> are they allowed to remove that if you know you're the expert. Are they allowed to go on there and remove the debris that's in that area? Now, >> I I can't I can't speak for New Jersey D, but I I think that you could fit that
in under property maintenance. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. And these maps that you obtain, do you rely upon them in the normal course of business? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> I don't have any more questions. Any other question?
>> I I have a question. >> Okay. >> If I look at my understanding is the figure one is the NJ mapped. >> Yes, sir. >> Wetland. >> Which are you contending the applicant
needs to follow? figure one or your figure three >> which are very different. >> Yeah. Uh figure so those are nonregulatory boundaries the D
has on there. The responsibility of the property owner is to have them verified and delineated by a professional. But those are approximations and I believe the wording on their website is that if you see a wetland boundary on or
adjacent to your property, you need to have a professional come out and determine whether there are wetlands on your property. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Any other board members with questions? >> Um I have a question. Sure. Um on figure
three, that area that's delineated is filled. Yes. >> Maybe testified to this or provided some more additional. Can you just elaborate as to what that fill is or what it consists of or >> that's what's in the photographs. >> Oh, that Okay. So, that's stone, rubble, soil. >> Okay.
>> All right. Trees, tires, >> and then just just to keep the record straight and to make sure that this is labeled correctly. On figure three, it says these are the site conditions observed on 1027 2025. Um, but just from my own experience, that whole front section is already sort
of like a garden center. So, I'm not sure is this this picture. >> Oh, yeah. I didn't I didn't put the Yeah, I didn't put the date of the aerial photograph on. It's on It's the same aerial photograph that was used on figure one. >> I have to have something for background otherwise it would just be white lines.
>> Says the site conditions observed on 1027 2025, but those site conditions aren't necessarily What are those site conditions referring to? The delineated areas. >> Yes. to to my markup. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> All right. Any other board members with questions? >> Just one quick question.
>> Sure. The view on the last page >> with the ditch. Does that correspond to one of the blue lines on sheet 306, figure four? It corresponds to the blue
line on figure three, the one that goes up. It's it's it's hard to see. There's like multiple layers on there and it all depends on the background that you have under it. But that ver that um straight line going
up the shoulder of the side of P Avenue is that photograph. >> I see. Thank you. >> Towards South. >> Yes. Towards South Street. Yep. Yes. >> Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Uh, Joe, do you
have any questions? >> You're there. >> I'm here. Um, no. I I've retained all the the the video images. I can see them clearly. I understand the presentation. Um, I I think the most important consideration is what Rich had sp spoken
to earlier regarding outside agency approvals. um as well as an understanding that those that are prior disturbances may be dealt with by D at a um enforcement level to remove and
approve that activity that was spoken to earlier as a condition and then other activities particularly anything else in the new site plan proposed may trigger um some form of permitting that would be identified during a pre-lication
Okay. Thank you. Any members of the public with uh questions of this witness? Seeing none, hearing none. Mr. Cali, any other questions? >> No questions. But but I do have a question for you, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. I'm curious as to how long
um objectors council believes he needs with Mr. Zyora on direct because I imagine it's limited the acoustic witness. I don't know if the board's pleasure is to hang it for a few minutes. If it's a matter of a few minutes, I would ask the board to consider, but I don't know what he really expects on director.
>> I I actually 15 minutes the board would indulge us and allow us to put them out of the way and then we have >> and then at that point, Mr. Chairman, after their planner testifies, I would have a recall of well, now three witnesses because after Mr. Vieira's, you know, testimony this evening, my applicant would like to testify again.
Um um you know, an attack of veracity of that testimony. So, we'll have three limited witnesses. I probably have 20 minutes of direct after they conclude their case in Chief. >> I think Mr. Cali has made a very good suggestion if the board is willing and I will tell my witness to speed it up. >> Seriously,
>> yeah. Board okay with staying a little lighter tonight? >> Sure. >> Let's go. >> Thank you. >> For 10 minutes. >> You raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth? So >> yes, I do. >> And your name for the record, please. >> Jack Zabora. That's Z YB U R A. >> Okay. Mr. Zabora, I've just promised the board we're going to speed your testimony. So, can you tell the board uh
how you have or you're here as an acoustical engineer? >> Yes. >> And can you tell the board what qualifications you have that allow you to testify as an acoustical engineer? >> Certainly. I have a bachelor's of science in acoustical engineering from the University of Hartford. I'm a professional engineer in New Jersey and
five other states, all currently in good standing. I'm board certified by Institute of Noise Control Engineering and I'm an associate principal at Lewis Goodfriend and Associates out of Chester, New Jersey. >> And in order for you to give testimony today, what steps have you taken? I reviewed the application materials on
the website of the town uh Google imagery and uh um and researched and data that we've conducted from previous projects applied to this project. >> I've also visited the site of uh John of John's house vice
>> and did you also use your expertise to use a computer model to uh to pres that we're going to present to the board? >> Yes, I did. Did you do a baseline of uh just an acoustical baseline? >> Yes, I did. >> All right. And uh based on that, Mr.
Chair, and again, I'll slow it down if you wish. Uh I I I offer Mr. Jabbor as a as an expert on certain acoustical aspects of of the application. And your your certification is still valid today. >> Yes, sir. >> Larry, I think No, I'm familiar with his
credentials. Thank you. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, sir. We have uh five exhibits tonight. Um the first one is uh just another aerial view of the site. You can pull that up. >> Okay. So, we're going to mark this as uh
01. And what just got handed out to the board is a package of three sheets. >> Five sheets. Should be >> I have the O1. >> I have O1 two and three.
Does everybody else just have three? >> Yes, I have three. >> Okay. Well, I'll tell you what. I'll give it a >> Sorry about that. For brevity, the first page is an aerial view. The second sheet is a time history of baseline sound levels. And the remaining three sheets
are sound contour maps. >> Yeah. Are you giving me a few sheets? Five. All right. Five. >> Okay. So, just for the record, 01 is five sheets and you are going to describe what they
are for us. Sure. >> First sheet is an aerial view. with a labeling of uh property owners for the residents. Sheet two is a time history of measured sound levels at Mr. Weissenberg's property and sheets three, four, and five are
sound contour maps of various modeling results. >> All right. What is in terms of the work you did, what is the point of of having a curs? >> Sure. This is just to orient I we've all seen aerial, so I don't think we have to dwell on this. This is just to orient
the property. North is up. So, we can go ahead to the second sheet. >> Yes. >> I don't really want you to r I mean, this isn't the important part. So, let's go through the second sheet. >> Want you to like We're here. >> Okay. Yeah.
>> So, I did visit Mr. Weisser's property on December 4th and measured the background sound levels that exist there today from 6:00 to 10:00 p.m. Um, you can see it by this chart. They roughly hover around 50 dB, 50 dBA. That's the median sound level, like the 50th
percentile. Um, sort of an average sound level of what's out there today. Moving on to the second sheet, we use commercially available software. It's called sound plan. Um, it uses standardized calculation tools to calculate how sound propagates over
distance. And it takes into account the distance between source and receiver, reflection and shielding from buildings. Um, in this case, we also included air absorption, ground absorption. And what I've modeled here is an event taking place inside the proposed event space
with the windows closed. And inside that event space, which is shown in the light gray, I have a level of 100 dB, which from my experience, I've measured during weddings and so forth. That's a reasonable level to assume for an indoor event. With the windows closed, this
doesn't look too bad. Actually, we're uh roughly around 50 dB at the nearest property lines to the north. Um and that's just to kind of give a baseline here. Now, if those windows were to be opened, we can now progress to the next sheet. And you can see it gets vastly louder. other direction.
>> Car just given the opportunity to slow you down a little bit. >> Can you just talk about the model that you've done and how much of it is subjective and you just inventing stuff and how much of it is technical expertise in which you have no leeway or little le
>> well the modeling is 3D computer model use Google imagery. We used the site plans that were available on the website to reconstruct the site and surrounding areas in this uh 3D acoustical model. And then we input sound sources and we have to import those as sound power levels which are independent of
distance. And then the model takes that input data and propagates the sound pressure levels at the adjacent property line. Sound pressure level is what's subject to the code. Okay. So in New Jersey, daytime code is 65 dB. Nighttime code is 50 dB. So the exercise that you have done for
the board that you're demonstrating today, you've gone through this type of exercise before. >> We do this all the time for proposed applications because many times you can't go out and measure a site that isn't quite there yet. You have to model and have input assumptions to predict expected sound levels. >> And and how many times in your career
would you say you have done this type of computer analysis? >> Hundreds. Over 16 years. >> Have they ever been rejected? >> Not by a board. No. >> Okay. to continue. >> So, the sheet that's up on here now is what happens if you were to open those
windows. So, I'm still 100 dB inside. Windows are open. Now, we're certainly blaring the sound out. It's certainly above the daytime code in the neighborhood. Um, the truth in all this is really how good are the windows that they've installed. I haven't heard testimony as to what kind of windows
they are, um, if they're going to be keeping them shut or not during events. Um, but that's certainly a problematic issue that should be addressed. >> Anything else on this one? >> Uh, sure. Um, we're looking at G4. >> Yes.
>> Yeah. Let's let's look at uh what what sound level you show for Mr. Weiss Gerber's house and for Mr. Vera's house having having with you having had the baseline on your one data point at roughly 50 dB. What do you have here? >> Yes. uh approximately 73 dB at Weissberger
and 66 67 dB at Vera. >> All right. And what does it mean for for human ears for hearing for there to be a diff differential of sound from let's say 55 dB to 73 dB. What does that mean? >> So every time you add 10 dB, it's really
a doubling of perception. So if we were at 50 and we went to 60, it's twice as loud as you previously perceived. And now if we went to 70, it's twice as loud again. Twice as loud as the 60 or again twice as loud as >> as the as the 60. So so two doublings of perceived loudness. >> Four times as loud.
>> Yes. >> And and so all right. So Mr. Weiss Gerber's house it's four times the what I'll say the ambient sound. And Mr. Vieira's house it's roughly >> Yeah. Double double and a half or so. >> Okay.
>> The last figure we presented here. >> I'm sorry. One more thing. Mr. Mayor testified to, you know, an effect where the sound goes ratcheting along as >> I think that'll be better shown in the next exhibit, but yes. >> Okay.
>> So, last exhibit we have is with a sound source in the open courtyard outdoors. Now, this one again based on measurements I I performed of uh live music in an outdoor event. I have this at a level of 90 dB at 10 feet from the speaker. And the speaker is
kind of where that purple area is in the center of the screen. That's where I have the speaker placed. And here you can see what was uh explained by Verie. You do get this tunneling effect where the sound is pointing north. Uh if you can go to the next next slide there.
Number five. There we go. So, yeah. So, due to the shielding of the buildings, it does tend to project the sound to the north and slightly to the east and also to the south. >> It almost looks like it's a liquid and it's spilling in that direction. That's >> right. Because the sound is being shielded and blocked by the buildings to
the to the west and and east and funneling up to the north. >> And what's the decel reading you have then for for this one with the outdoor venue? >> Yeah. So, here at Weissberger, we're over 65. It's about 66 dB. So again, much louder than the 50 that's out there now. At the closer house, we're still
sitting around 69 70 dB. >> And then Mr. Ver's house is >> the Aries is in the 60s. Yep. >> It it's it's louder indoors with a window than than outdoors. >> And there was with the windows open, it's louder because the sound is more
concentrated inside. The room reflections build up that sound and projected out of the building. Do you have anything else that you want to tell the board about your >> Uh, no. I think that sums it up. >> Okay. I thank the board for allowing us.
I think Mr. Cal >> any questions. Oh, sorry. Board members, any questions? >> Yes, Mr. Chair. So, um, thank you for for this, um, riveting explanation of
the colors. Um, in your opinion, what are measures that the applicant could take to mitigate the decibel level short of turning the sound down? >> I mean, there's there's certainly a lot of unknowns here. So, one would be to confirm what the window performance is and commit to having windows closed
during performances. Um, I understand that the space is air conditioned if I remember from a prior hearing. So, they might be doing that anyway. That would be good to confirm and also confirm what the window configurations are. If the window is not as uh beefy as the one that I had in my
model, the truth would be somewhere between the two, the open and the closed window results that I had. >> Yes. Could you give us an idea what would be the decibel level of a so a leaf blower at like 50 ft?
Of course, it depends on the leaf blower. Um I can certainly see um you know if you're wearing the leaf blower, you're you're probably experiencing 90 to 100 dB of sound. Um so I think that'd be comparable to what the speaker would be in the middle of the event area.
Is there much of a difference between electric and gas? >> I think electric would be quieter. Yes. >> Yeah, I know that where I am the leaf blowers go on and I have to go inside. >> Yes. >> I have a question. >> Yes. Any other questions?
>> That's good. You have any question, Mr. Cop? >> I do have one question. So, you had mentioned often times you use these modeling software and tools because nothing is built there. There's nothing there yet. So, you have to rely on the models. In this particular instance, we do have a facility that is built and they've had events and that is up and running. So is your firm or did the work
you do, do you often go out to measure decibel levels, let's say for example, spring is coming, they have an event where you would then take readings actually during a real time live. >> You certainly could. We'd have to be aware of the event and we would have to be, you know, assured that they're not turning it down because they know we're
out there that day. Of course, >> but you have done that kind of work. >> Yes, we We do physical measurements on site, you know, all the time. >> Thank you. >> Any other questions from board members? Any questions from members of the public?
This witness? Seeing none, hearing none. Mr. Cali, any more questions? >> No, sir. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank the board for allowing us to do this. >> Yes. Okay. Do we have a new date? When we get to do this? I know nothing.
So it depends on if you want to uh this next we have those other agenda items. So where uh >> four >> homeowner applications on and
as we learned when we started one of them has a lot of objectors there. So that meeting's probably pretty booked up. >> Yeah. >> Uh that would put us to the April meeting. >> There's one already for the April
meeting. >> One two variance. >> Yes. Uh, unless the board wants to consider another special >> in what month, >> whenever you want to do it, tomorrow. >> I don't know.
>> Right. I'm just We're just trying to debate, you know, we're looking at we have like four applications for the next meeting, the the meeting in two weeks. Uh, >> I asked the council how much he needs for his plan. He thinks it'll be 30 minutes. hopefully become tighter. We
need probably less than 30 to go through at this point. >> Yeah. And then there's a board deliberation and testimony from anybody else. Right. >> Right. >> So probably two hours. >> Love the first available agenda particularly while it's freshman. >> Right.
>> Um >> but I think we have to >> So what if what if we did this? what we could schedule you. Our next available meeting is the April meeting. We canvas the board to see if there's a date
available where you know we can have a special between now and you know 3 weeks from now or something, right? >> Or even shortly thereafter as opposed to waiting all the way to the end of April. Right. >> I think the April meeting is like the 25th or something.
>> Yeah, the end of Monday, right? >> 27th, correct? >> 27th. Yes. So if we if we do it that way though, you have to renotice. >> I think my wife would be fine with that if there were not very special >> because you you know we need
>> I need Joe to see his schedule. I need you know Kate who's not able to be here tonight to know they're available and especially that's the planning testimony night and she should be here. Sure. >> So you know we have to canvas the board for available dates. There's all that stuff, right? But we can do that and we
can canvas and try and fit in another special. I mean, we canled two meetings because of the weather. So, I know we appreciate, >> you know, we're trying to have another special to make up to catch us up isn't the worst idea. Um, but for now, we can announce April and and if that works,
you'd have to renotice, >> right? At least we preserve the April date. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's a special opportunity. >> Yeah. We'll lock up April. >> It's a good problem. Yeah. That means we're here that much sooner and it's >> So, what's the date right here? April April 27th
>> 27th >> is our next available night. >> You good? >> Yeah. Thank you. >> All right. And and what I was saying is I'll announce that in a second, but in the meantime, we'll canvas the board and see if we can fit in a special before
that um to try and conclude. Okay. All right. If that happens, the applicant will have to renotice because we don't have it now to announce it. Right. Okay. So, for purposes of the public, this meeting is coming to an end for this evening. It will continue on
April 27th at 7:00 p.m. in this room. There'll be no further notices from the applicant unless we um are able to schedule another special meeting in which case there will be new notice from the applicant only in that case. Okay.
>> Excuse me, Mr. Yes. Ask a question and maybe I don't know if it's something we could poll or ask the board about, but I mean we don't do it often, but at times we have actually done a site visit as a board. So I don't know if there would be an appetite from the board members given the sort of enormity of what's happening here on this track of land to actually
have a site visit and and take a look at it if you know sometime in early April or before the next meeting. We do have signed permission to go on the property to evaluate if you want to go on your own. >> Okay.
>> As opposed to this if we do a official site visit, we've got to announce it. Members of the public can be there and we've got to set the date. Do we have to give notice of it? >> We can announce it here. >> Yeah, that right now. Yeah, that would be the notice. >> Okay. >> Right.
>> Or else we can just do it informally on our own. Whoever >> call >> three of us can go at once. >> Three at a time. >> Yeah. You can't have a quarum, but the individuals can go up to three at a time, right? You just can't have four.
>> And and I don't know if it's a valid question to ask the applicant like, do they have any scheduled events coming up in the next month where we could actually hear or see any? I because apparently they shouldn't. >> I know, but you know, but based on the test here, we'll >> check their website. >> Yeah. Okay. Instagram,
>> right? Take that. >> Okay. >> Just scroll through. So, >> I I don't know. Is there an appetite for a for a joint board review? >> I mean, because there's the interior space as well that's been finished. So, I don't I think, you know, I think there's been a lot of interior work done
um inside the property to plan for the event like building up the event space, the kitchen, like that. I think there's already stuff deployed there. I don't know. I mean, I'll take another visit there myself and and but yeah, so if you if you're okay with just doing that, um
>> usually that's fine. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I think that' be easier. >> Just individuals will view it >> and and and the site visit would allow or we have permission to go on the property but also in the property as well. Is that correct? With a >> I think the applicant would certainly w they want you to see what it for the
tremendous investment today, not just the time here, but on the property. they they would enjoy you folks. Very proud of what they've done there. So, >> more than welcome. >> Thank you for >> on property in the property in the building. >> Okay. Okay. >> One other question. We need an extension
to the end of April. >> We'll gladly wrap up through April. >> Okay. Then we'll see where we're at. Hopefully, we're done. >> Hopefully to see where we're at that point. Hope we're done. We'll see. >> Anything else? >> It might snow. Um, >> don't say that.
>> Not on my birthday. >> That's your birthday then? Yeah. >> So, I'm sorry. So, if there is going to be a walk through and would that be a site? >> No, we're going to just do it like we have permission to go on the property as part of the application. So, it's not going to be like an official
uh the entire board going at once. Anybody that wants to visit the site will do it on their own. Maybe contact the applicant and say, you know, I want to be there on such and such a date. But it's not going to be like a formal walk through >> part of the application is an owner's consentation, not not your team. This is
an authorization for the board under title 40, >> right? >> I'm sorry. I'm just accustomed to site visit being >> It's not It's not a site visit. It's as part of the application. There's a owner's consent that any member of the
board individually can go look at the site. So, they're just going to do that individually. Okay. >> All right. Anything else? >> Okay. So, uh, April 27th, unless we schedule something, in which case you'll notice it.
>> Okay. >> Okay. Thank you everyone. >> Thanks. >> Any other uh business for the board? >> Do I have a motion to adjurnn? So move. >> Do I have a second? >> Second.
>> Meeting adjourned.