Speaker 1: It's on everyone. Speaker 2: All right, welcome everybody. Today is February 20. This is the Native Conservation Commission. Welcome to our No Sound from the room, everybody. Oh, All right. Here we go. All right, so we got everything all. Good evening. Hey Jeff. So today's February 20th. We got a relatively short agenda tonight because of some continuations there, but if I could just have people keep themselves on mute who are watching remotely until your particular agenda item comes up, it would be appreciated.
What I'd like to do is exercise chair's prerogative and to pull a, an informal discussion and informational discussion from the native community Organic Farm. We have Casey here, so Casey, if you could come on up and let's, let's chat about what's on your mind and then we'll get into the public hearing part of the meeting. Perfect. Speaker 1: And just so the commissioner's joining online know I'm gonna be adding the materials that Casey has for us here in person into the Google Drive, so you guys can follow along. Thanks Casey at home. Speaker 2: Thank you, sir. Yep. Hey man, Speaker 3: See you. How you, how you doing? Good.
Speaker 2: Alright, Casey, welcome. Welcome. How's things on the farms? You're so close. Speaker 4: Move away. Thanks. Things are good. We're, we're tapping on another, another season of maple syrup and probably tomorrow, next day, something like that, Speaker 2: You, you'll start tapping. Speaker 4: Well, mother Nature threw us for a loop about three weeks ago and gave us a beautiful 10 day forecast and then shut it all down so we are ready to go. Got it. We've been ready for three weeks. But yeah, things on the farm are good. We are big overview. We're celebrating our 50th year this year, which is kind of a nice testament to all that Linda built.
And we've kind of continued along those same lines. I think last year at this time we were in process of building a new barn and it's done, which is really great. So May of 2024, we opened our new barn. Beautiful. So many people contributed to it, so we're very, very lucky to have that. We're in our third of fourth year of our strategic plan this year. So some things we're doing that are kind of related to that. Our programming has gotten very robust on Saturdays now we're doing what we're calling Farm Discovery days, where we pack probably four to five programs into a single Saturday.
So for example, this Saturday we have a, we Farmers, maple Syruping, a Suburban Farmer series and teen Opportunities all on the same day. Wow. That was kind of in response to the, the 52 pages of surveys that we got several years ago. People were asking for more programming, more family programming, more weekend programming, more afterschool programming for farm for a lot of the kids from Memorial, for example, come over after school and they either help with chores or just have like free play out in the woods, which is really great. On the community connection side, we're doing some really cool stuff. We continue the goat scaping with the town.
We hope to do a little bit more just beyond the Union Water Tower location. We're trying to work with Claire to figure out a couple of our locations. We can do that. Well. We got Speaker 2: Some locations where I think it would be helpful. Yeah, Speaker 4: I can imagine. Yeah, so we got that going on. Our senior shares continue with the community services where we grow the food volunteers from, from community services, come and pick those up, deliver 'em to their, their place. Something that we're really concerned, like excited about this year is we're working with Kitchen Services, Jillian to take part of the food waste from the high school and Memorial school to kind of alleviate some
of the costs they have associated with kind of moving that food away from the school and then bringing over to our animals. And so we're seeing that like as a pilot project this year, it's been really great so far. I think we're getting somewhere between like 50 and 75 pounds of really nice clean compost every single week. We hope to kind of expand that to other schools, but we wanted to just dip our toe in the water and see what it was actually like. Hopefully it helps everybody out in, in the long term there. So that's kind of our like short term. And then the stuff that I, I gave you guys is more of like, one of the things we're looking at in our strategic strategic plan is kind of addressing aging infrastructure.
So we, for safety's sake, for of the participants, for the animals, for the people who use it, we're like, farms are typically very reactive in the sense like, here's, here's some money now we're gonna build something. Right. And so we're thinking about the next 10 to 15 years in a more proactive approach. And so we were very fortunate to work with Appleseed Permaculture and he, Connor has worked with a couple other farms from Right Lock Farm and Winchester, which is one like a big one up that way, which is kinda very similar size to what we do. We got the grant from Middlesex.
So we're very thankful for that. And we've been working with Connor for about, let me think, six months now. And it's been a really amazing process to kind of, I think Claire and Mike were both at some of the, some of the steps, but we're looking at the farm as like a whole system essentially and thinking about it, not just like a knee jerk reaction of like, let's do this now, let's do this. Thinking about it over the next 10 to 15 years. And what you see in front of you is months of work kind of synthesized down to like where we think we are going to go essentially. And it kind of started with like a lot of internal processes
of this, of Connor meeting with our staff, talking about who we are. We were described as rugged, authentic, like we're proud of that, right? We're not like a glitzy glamor farm. Like we, we like those things about us. We're very authentic. So we started on the staff side talking about who we are, where we wanted to go, what what we needed for our programs. For example, like accessible bathrooms. That was something we needed, right? And then we took that out to the community and we had a, a what Connor called a charette, which was really amazing. We had it in the barn and we had about 50 years worth of people who had been like present in the farm's history.
Mike talked a little bit about when you got paid a dollar an hour from Linda, like in the early days of the farm, right? And then at the same table we had George Fisk, who has been president in the farms, and David, David Parrish was there as well. And so we have all of these kind of input pieces. And what Connor has done is kind of like thought about the property in that 10 to 15 year span with, with the kind of emphasis on three key pieces of infrastructure. There's, if you look kind of this as program pavilion, that's one piece we're thinking about, like bigger pieces, point of sale, farm stand number four,
and then our animal husbandry house. And those are like the three larger pieces that we've, we've kind of been thinking about and kind of placing them. And it's, it's, it's a lot. Like if you think back to like the old school days when you'd put like a copy on top and you move it around and move it again and move it again. We, we did that so many times thinking about why, well, why should this go here? Where should this go? Like all these different things. And this was like our synthesized design concept of this is where we think we should go while adhering to these goals. Like we need to make sure we still do the
mission, we adhere to the mission. Like we're keeping that land productive or open. We're not just gonna build buildings to think about like just putting the building there and just being really thoughtful about the proactive approach. So if you flip to the next page, well before, before we do like, flip to that, does anybody have any questions? Kind of about like the big picture? I'm gonna go into some of like the details of the plan here. Speaker 2: So just to be clear though, Casey, what we, what we have in front of us is a combination of of of current conditions plus, plus vision. Speaker 4: Yes, Speaker 2: Exactly. Of what you would, of what you would like to do. Speaker 4: Yeah. And what we would like to do is, if you flip
to the next page, this is kind of like our timeframe that we're thinking about. And again, some of these things are a little bit iterative in the sense that like, this is like our, our our timeline, our our chart essentially with kind of like, this is what's gonna happen first. This is the phase, this is why we actually need it. Right. And so some of the things we've been thinking about for years are like parking, right? That's Speaker 1: A Casey, I'm just gonna ask you to pause very briefly. For some reason we've lost Pegasus in the zoom room. Speaker 4: Sure. Speaker 5: It appears that we lost
Zoom here as well as Matt's meeting with the finance committee upstairs. Oh, okay. It seems to be a bigger system problem with Zoom right Speaker 6: Now. Got it. So I will maybe just fix the audio on the screen here so that at least we're picking that up. Speaker 5: Yeah, try to do that. Okay. Dunno, Speaker 2: Global Zoom outage, global economy grinds to a halt Speaker 7: Satellite involved. Who's the cabinet secretary that covers that? Speaker 2: He got fired. Boy, I just, well Speaker 4: Yeah, that's fine. Speaker 2: I can definitely, they're Veted right now. Speaker 4: Do you want me to get closer to that, Claire? Speaker 8: Oh, there you go. Speaker 6: Yeah. Sorry folks. We lost Pegasus, so we're trying to troubleshoot.
Speaker 8: Brilliant. We've got sound now. Speaker 2: Hey David, how are you? Speaker 8: Very good, very good. Sorry I'm not there, but at least I can complain about Speaker 1: It. Should be able to pick you up this way. Speaker 4: Should pick now. Okay. Speaker 2: Okay, good. While Speaker 8: We're doing this, I'm, I'm presuming the answer is no, but is there any way to show a video or, or a picture of what is being described in terms of the, Speaker 2: It it should be up on the shared drive now, is that right? Yeah, Speaker 1: But I'll, I'll share my screen too that I didn't want to take over Speaker 2: The, but if Zoom is down, you can't, Speaker 1: It's just the zoom Pegasus connection. It seems to be broken. Speaker 2: Can you see that David? Yes. Great. Thank you. Super.
Speaker 4: Perfect. Thanks Claire. I'll still talk really loudly. I use my teacher voice. So the, we've got some things that are higher cost, some things that are lower cost and these are kind of like the phases of the next 10 to 15 years. And so some of the things we've always kind of struggled with is just like the parking situation. There's some really unique options that people are talking about. For example, like clearing out some spaces long allinger drive, that's a bigger DPW school Speaker 2: Conversation was, I was gonna challenge you on that one. Just that's Speaker 4: A big, big conversation recording Speaker 8: In progress.
Speaker 1: Sorry, we got Pegasus back. Speaker 4: Sure. Speaker 8: Right. Yes, we can hear you Speaker 2: Great. Great. Speaker 4: Some of the issues we're having specifically around like programming is like safety when folks are actually coming into the property. Although I, you know, Mike talked a little bit about shutting down the whole property, having people walk in at the shred. I love that idea. But in, in logistics, I'm not sure that'll actually work. So we're talking about like a very safe space, like a very safe entry point for people actually coming into the property beyond just the driveway. And then you can kind of see like, that was number two, number three, the farm stand where we want to keep our rustic feel.
We don't want to become like a, a Roche brothers or a, you know, some big glitzy glamor grocery store. We wanna keep that aesthetic and we're kind of, that's very much in the next phase I would say. What Speaker 2: Is that? Vel Farms in Concord or something like that with something Speaker 4: Like that? Yeah, I don't wanna name names 'cause I have friends there, but, but yeah, we want to keep kind of that, that same space, just doubling it, being able to service people in a, in a more year round capacity. The, the big, probably the biggest one in the entire plan is number five, which we've moved up a little bit, is our program pavilion education.
The educational programs have become a big piece of what we've been doing and we've cobbled together enough things for us to find really safe, grounded space for our programs. But really like looking for something to meet the afterschool experience. Our homeschool experience is getting more robust or summer programs, our community space. Some of our community partners are asking for spaces as well. So that's kind of one piece that we're looking at. That's probably the biggest piece to be honest with you, in terms of like the capital, like in input into it. Others like number six have really low input.
Our civil pasture is something that we've been talking about for years and we're actually in process of getting another hoop house and using that to kind of rotate our turkeys through the back piece of the pasture there. So if you look in that first map where it says s pasture, when I've seen some maps in the pasture of like, I think in the sixties and the seventies when that, that s silver pasture area was just a field, which is kind of an amazing sense, not that I wanna return that to a field, but it's a really great place, for example, to, to range our turkeys through.
It's like a perfect space for that. Other things we're looking at accessible bathrooms, handicapped accessible bathrooms. Number eight, Connor's really. He's worked with a lot of farms from Vermont all the way down here and he's seen a lot of impacts of flooding. I know Vermont had two successive years of flooding, so that's on the back of his mind when he looks at this property as well. Like how are, how are we mitigating that rain flow? Where is it going? What, what kind of things can we do to stop that? Speaker 2: Are there any issues currently on site under, under heavy rainfall? No conditions? Yeah, I didn't think so. The Speaker 9: Soils this area are also particularly well
Speaker 2: Draining and, and it's also highly sloped. I mean there's a, yeah, Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the, I think that the most sloped is like an 8% slope, but it's kind of up on the, it's it's fully in grass it would be like where Yep. Where Claire's moving around there. So it would be like in that area, I've, I've worked as a farm since 2013. I've seen flooding before, but I've never seen it kind of breach into the vegetable fields or kind of gone into like the blueberry section. So in that sense, we're very lucky the wetlands are doing what they need to do, so wanna keep them intact.
Number nine is just our animal husbandry house. I think back to when we lost the barn and we lost that because of a jostle heat lamp. So we've made a, a very decisive call never to have any kind of heat structure in that barn. So we want to have an auxiliary building that where we can actually do our birthing our, or have our heat lamps do all of that stuff in a very safe low cost space. Speaker 2: So where do you do that now then? I mean if you have, if you have conditions where you need heat lamps or whatever for, for babies and birthing and all that stuff. Where's that happening? Speaker 4: 2, 2, 2 ways we've kind of mitigated that issue.
We are using these things called sweeter heaters. And sweeter heaters use infrared technology. So if they do drop onto something, they shut off. Okay. Which is really great. But we're doing it in the hoop house, which is directly adjacent to the farm stand. So it's just a plastic structure. Right. And it does get us by, but in terms of like me, the demand, we're kind of limited by that space. Got it. Yeah. And then the very last one is the wetlands lookout shelter. It's something that we feel could be potentially built by a Boy scout project or some kind of the scout project, which is something that, you know, like the main part
of the farm really keeps me busy and I would like to go out to that other part of the farm and really appreciate it. But I just don't have a lot of time. But I think it's something that could be better integrated into the program and the mission of the farm to kind of bring people out into that space because there's, I mean the majority of the 27 acres are in that forested area. Speaker 2: I mean we do have good relations, I mean as do you guys, but with, with the local Boy Scout troops and Eagle Scout projects and stuff like that. I mean it could be a great, a great project for definitely someone like that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Like you said, I mean Speaker 4: It could be like a weekend project if you get the right crew together. Right on. Speaker 1: Well, well we've seen the scouts do some pretty impressive things.
Yeah. So yeah, if you guys are ever ready to pull the trigger on that, just let me know. 'cause we, Doug Renick and I usually are the ones managing the scout projects that are coming through. Speaker 2: We could rally the troops pretty quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 1: We have, we have four or five requests a year from really Eagle Scouts. Yeah. Because the Wellesley troops also look to Natick sometimes for projects. 'cause we have more open space that is in need of some assistance. Yeah, Speaker 2: I mean in in general as you have projects where Eagle Scouts or Boy Scout troop help would be helpful.
Sure. You know, come talk to us. Just 'cause I mean my son was an Eagle Scout and you know, you know, we've, we've all benefited from it in at various points in time, so, so tap into that as you need it. Definitely. Speaker 4: The other thing we're thinking about, which is outside, I know it's, it's a little, little small idea at this point, but also the, the transition of memorial school. I talked to Claire, Matt about this a little bit. I think it's slated for 2029 I think is somewhere in there. So we're trying to think about how to prepare for that as well. And so something we're thinking a little bit about is this potentially safe walkway to what may be the parking lot. So I think what we envision is the school kind
of moving forward in the parking and everything moving back. So we wanna have kind of a safe direction moving back to where, where the existing school is. And that may give us like a really nice safe way for kids to get to the farm school groups to get to the farm. Some are program people to get to the farm. So that's kind of something we're thinking about for this year. Very low impact. Low cost, something our teens can actually do, which won't impact the wetland, but it's basically more of a walkway. Speaker 2: Cool. Speaker 4: So I know it's a lot to digest, so thanks
for going with me on that. We're very much in the early stages of all this and I feel like every time we meet with Connor, we kind of just take that little block and we say, what about here? What about there? You know, like I think that's the real value of having a lot of people look at these types of like the setups and say like, have you thought about this? Have you thought about this? Because the many of us use it. And I think the more people kind of look at it and say like, have you thought about moving it there? Does it relate to this? Like, we're definitely open to feedback from the conservation commission. Speaker 2: Cool. Are you gonna talk any details about the program pavilion here this evening?
Definitely. Can, you know, why don't you just kind of tee that up and we can get initial feedback from folks Sure. And, and then see what, if there is feedback and then we can go from there. Speaker 4: Definitely. So let's go hyper-focused on the program pavilion, which is number five in this area. That's one of the first major pieces of infrastructure we would like to focus on. We have, we have a few quotes. We've got general contractors interested. We have a beautiful timber frame structure that's actually planned by one of our team, our exte work crew people.
So he's gone on to Michigan and now owns his own timber framing company. He would like to come back and build a timber frame structure for that educational pavilion. The location we've been thinking about is that kind of below the two hoop houses there. So it has like a north south orientation. You see those two plastic structures currently. It's, it's located, it's kind of situated in a blueberry area. And I believe those were the original blueberries that Linda found on the property. She went around, dug 'em all up and put 'em in that area. For us, in terms of like productivity, it's a, it's a lower
productive place. We've tried to grow things from perennial flowers to blueberries to like perennial herbs and it hasn't really panned out for us. And the blueberries themselves have kind of reached their end of their lifespan. The other area that we did look at in other concept designs, if you can see where it says number seven, accessible bathrooms. We looked at putting the pavilion in that location. Some of the feedback from the staff is if you're kind of imagining yourself standing in front of the barn, we wanted to have lines of sight.
And so it's really important from a programmatic standpoint to come out of that building and see where different people are. So if we were to put the pavilion there, you really cut people off from vis, like visually seeing where different pieces are. The other thing we really factored in is safety. So safety is a big issue. The cars just keep getting bigger and our driveway just keeps staying the same size. So we're trying to figure out a way to move this pavilion as close to the parking lot as possible so people don't have, so kids specifically don't have to walk any further than they have to. And so that location where it currently sits does have a great connection. If, if the kids could walk through the area,
which is a pasture now cross the brook and then kind of go up to where we think that parking lot will soon be. And it, it's a nice spot because it's, it's a safety thing. It's a nice drop off piece. The land isn't as productive as we would hope unless we wanna start like cranberry bog production, something like that. So that's the kind of location we're thinking about. We've, we've toyed with it in that other area, but we think that's the, the best place for it. Matt, what questions do you have? Speaker 2: Yeah, so just not having kind of detailed site plans at this point in time. You know, one of the realities is
that it is within riverfront area. You know, it's certainly jurisdictional for us. And so there would be, from a permitting perspective, you know, we would need to be thinking about, you know, alternatives and justifying why this would be here. I think the alterna you know, what you've, the thought process you've laid out there makes, makes great good sense in my mind. But it's just part of what we would need to consider as we're, as we're thinking about this, you know, that it is, it's, you know, I think that at closest approach it's 95 feet or something like that, Speaker 1: 86 feet, 86 feet from the edge of the river.
There is a wetland area that that falls on either side of the stream corridor. So there's, there's buffer zone and, and some of our internal buffers as well. Casey and I met out on the site with the one of the contractors and met with Matt as well to talk about this. And there's, there's definitely some permitting challenges that are gonna come with this location. We are outside of the flood elevation, so no issues with bordering land subject to flooding, but really just looking at ways to see how to make this location work from a a mitigation perspective. Casey and the contractor are both aware that
that storm water management is gonna have to be a part of this project. But just figuring out if, if we can determine mitigation proposals and, and ways to figure if this location can meet the performance standards. Speaker 10: Does it need to be, can it be something that's structured with say helical screws and timber frame constructed on top of that Speaker 2: Rather than a pad, like a concrete pad? Speaker 10: You know, I think that, you know, those are the things that I think about when I think about riverfront, you know, is, is there a way to tailor construction methods where it would net it may not trigger
riverfront review. Speaker 4: I'm not familiar with helic screws. Can you describe those? Is it just like a big screw essentially? Is that all it is? Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I mean in instead of digging footers, you know, footings in the ground, you're just driving these large six eight inch diameter helical screws into the ground and then attaching the beams concrete. Speaker 1: Yeah. They can be concrete piles as well that, that sit in the ground. I know Casey has been looking at ways to make things as accessible as possible, but I think that there's maybe some of our options like matting or things like that that could help in that instance. Speaker 2: Even, even some kind of pervious surface,
Speaker 1: I mean Speaker 2: Underneath, you know, and there's rigid per pervious surf pervious surfaces. Well I Speaker 1: I do think, you know, we don't recommend porous pavement in almost any application because the maintenance of it in like a, a vehicular access perspective is usually prohibitive for almost every homeowner or business Speaker 2: As soon as you put sand down on it. Yeah. But the longer Speaker 1: Forest, this would have a roof over it. And in theory stormwater management design that's, you know, keeping water from pooling on the, and even if it did pool it would permeate through i
that is gonna be a cost consideration obviously. But it is pervious in that regard. And then just still have that accessibility component. 'cause it's, it's asphalt at the Speaker 2: End of the day that flat, flat rigid surface, you know, for, for accessibility. Could a green roof be applicable here? Speaker 4: I think it depends on whether solar is included in the design. So one thing we're actually going through now is determining if the current panels that are on the barn that were installed are covering the farm's needs. And we think they're pretty close actually. So we're talking to two different solar panel companies
to see if we do do another array, what does that yield us and does that benefit the farm essentially if we're producing more, who does that go back to? Does the cost of the solar array actually benefit us? So we're getting numbers somewhere between 110 and $85,000 without a 30% refund like rebate on it Speaker 2: For additional solar. Correct. That would put you over the top, you would be net zero at that point? We, we'd Speaker 4: Be beyond net zero. Yeah, definitely. Do Speaker 2: You guys have battery backup on site already or Speaker 4: No, it's the ones that are connected to the barn are going right back to the grid.
Speaker 2: Got it. Okay. Speaker 4: So it's a pretty big array that they're, that they're recommending. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, Speaker 2: But there, sorry, continue. I, Speaker 4: I love the idea of the, of the rigid like pervious surface. I think some things we're thinking about from a logistical standpoint too are we, we went back and forth in terms of like, you know, two B side stone and then we were just thinking, huh, if we had kids in this space, the first thing I would do is I, if I was a kid, I'd pick those rocks up and I'd throw 'em somebody, right. Speaker 2: I'd be chucking at something Speaker 4: Because that's what you do when you're a kid or you're, or you're just constantly going like this
and moving your feet around, right? And then you have a teacher going, Hey, can you stop moving your feet for a sec? Right. But if we can come up with like a really interesting, like hybrid, that would be something that would be great. I think. So any rec, any ideas would be a great recommendation. So Speaker 2: Would you need the topography of the site where the pavilion where where you're proposing the pavilion? Is it, is it flat? Speaker 1: It's relatively level. I think between, if we're looking at the stream bank and where the pavilion and the existing field are located, I believe there's a, a three to four foot elevation change over the span of, you know, 150 feet.
Speaker 2: But would there need to be any fill brought in to level out the site where the pavilion would need to go? Speaker 1: I think it would more likely because of the width of the pavilion, it would more likely be a, a slight cut of material to create that level base rather than filling up the other side. 'cause then you'd have the drop off that I think would not be suitable Speaker 4: Besides the pavilion we're looking at is 40 feet by 72 feet. If that gives you somewhat of an idea. It's it's a pretty good size, big structure. Yeah. The beams themselves, where if we go with the one contractor out of Michigan, who's our team,
he went through all our teens, the 40 feet is the biggest you can get in terms of timbers. So he's looking at white oak coming out of Michigan. And so it's a, it's a pretty big building with I think six different bents associated with that piece. So. Speaker 2: Cool. So any, I mean devil's in the details of course, right? You know, but any, is there any kind of fatal flaws in this, you know, something where, where we could tell Casey to go figure out something else? Or is Speaker 10: The riverfront is a huge hurdle? Yeah, Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's, so if Speaker 10: There's a, if there's a way to kind of figure that out,
you know, find, you know, I'm not sure if I should say this in public, but is there a gray area within the riverfront? You know, could this fall under redevelopment? You know, is there other, you know, I, and I'm not, I'm not the engineer, I'm not, there Speaker 1: Are also some minor exemptions that apply, correct. Because this is over 50 feet from the riverfront. It could, there could, there are some minor exemptions that may be applicable that, you know, I actually may be even worth a reach out to Alicia Galen to see what DPS thoughts would be. Speaker 10: I think if, if not Speaker 1: Necessarily we can frame justling beans, but Speaker 4: Yeah, Speaker 10: Sure. I, you know, I, I just, I just think that, you know,
where we typically are around riverfront, we're inherently fairly strict here and Speaker 2: It is a roofed structure going Speaker 10: Like to, you know, I personally, we like, I personally like to stay, try to stay consistent within our, you know, within our decisions historically. So Speaker 2: We, we have to Speaker 4: Yeah. And I, I appreciate that. Like, I wanna be totally transparent. I want to be above board on this. I want, I want you, you guys are the best recommend recommendation in terms of like, what we should be doing. And especially as, you know, the farm's mission is to take care of the land, right? And if this structure can't be placed there,
because it doesn't, it doesn't take the best use of the land and we want to hear that. So, Speaker 2: But I think something around appropriate use of pervious services and you know, some kind of, you know, thoughtful recharge scheme, you know, the, it, it feels manageable to me to stay com, you know, absolutely consistent with previous decisions to say certainly within the letter of the law, you know, I mean if it feels like there's room to maneuver on this, but we should do some homework. Yep. Speaker 10: Yeah. And is, and is, if you know, I know you've gone
through a lot of work with this with Apple seed and, and, and this has been a long term project, but you know, to get back to your safety issue, what is the minimum size that you need for safety and is that pavilion better suited for programming, say in the forest where, where it would be 200 feet easily, 200 feet away from the stream, you know, so, you know, if this is about safety and off offloading students and visitors, what, what would that, what does that look like? Does it need to be to be a 72 foot long structure
or would that 72 foot long structure be better in placed in the woods? You know, I know what that now you're talking two structures, but you know, you know what I'm saying? Right. Speaker 4: It's a, that's a bogo. I'll go back to the contract and tell two two for the price Speaker 2: Of one. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Speaker 10: Johnny Appleseed would, Speaker 2: But it might be something that once, once the ice melts, you know, maybe this group going out and taking a walk out there and just kind taking a look at it. I mean, I always welcome the opportunity to get out there and walk around, you know, maybe that's a good, a good step. So time, I mean, timeline for something like this, I mean,
is this something that you would, if all, if the stars and planets aligned properly? I mean, would you be wanting to get on this this summer kind of thing or what's your, what's your thinking around that? Speaker 4: Yeah, the timeframe for this is that we would, we, we would build this around the summer program season and our summer program season runs from mid-June until late August. So that's the busiest time of the farm. We don't do anything big at that. And I say that just as we got done with a big barn construction project last year. But anyway, so we have, we're we're visioning envisioning the timeframe to be sometime between end August, some August
and the following June. So we're looking at a nine month period in which like things could actually get done from a, the, the conversations we talked with the contractor, the site prep. And if we did go with some type of slab, he thinks it could be done in two to three weeks. There's electrical as well that could needed to be done. So there's, there's fans and lots of, Speaker 2: But it's fast though. Speaker 4: Yeah. The frame itself, the timeframe on the frame is the longest and it's about a five month timeframe from the time you sign the papers until it actually arrives on site two to three weeks with a crane it goes up.
So all told, we're probably looking at on site probably three to four months I should say that double it. 'cause that's usually how construction works. Right. Speaker 2: But, but what you're saying though is that, I mean for so lead time for the contractor to source the wood and all that other stuff, that's three to four months you said? Speaker 4: Just for the frame itself is the longest piece of it. And so let's, let's say that we go forward with a timber frame, it would be five months from the time we sign that contract with a timber framer until the frame is actually ready. 'cause it's gonna be hand cut. Right. And that takes a long time.
And then it would be craned, it would be brought in for Michigan and then two to three weeks. So that's the longest piece of it. The contractor that, that we hope to go with worked exclusively on the barn. He's really, really great. He thinks the other things the, let's just call the slab, the foundation itself, the electrical, the roof. He thinks that's gonna be like a two to two to three months, something like that. Speaker 2: So working backwards, I mean, because you, you know, but if I, if I understand correctly, you would wanna start on this in August Speaker 4: Ideally if everything works out okay.
Right. Wanna make sure everything is tied up in Speaker 2: This sense, but then working backwards from August, that's March. Yeah. In terms of lead time. So you would wanna be, and again, if everything aligns and you had your druthers, I mean you would then be getting signing paperwork now. Speaker 4: I'd say Yes, but I mean we could, we could always wait, right? We wanna make sure that things are, things are lined up and that we're putting it in the right location. If it doesn't make sense, then I don't want to just move forward with the project. So we do have anywhere between August I, I say this like
as a person who's gone through winter here, but the winners seem like we don't have a winter anymore. And now we have a winter. So I'd say like anytime between August and it seems like December, January there's no snow on the ground and now we've got snow. Right. Speaker 2: So that I see. So you could push back the start time, you could push back Speaker 4: The Speaker 2: Snow time. Got it. But you know, landing, landing on the plan so you can get that lead time going. Yeah, exactly. As soon as possible. So it seems like, I mean we should probably, you know, I mean you and working with Claire kind of zeroing in on
where you want to put it so it, so the permitting process could begin as soon as possible. Yeah. Would be important. Speaker 4: I think so, yeah. Okay. And again, I wanna make sure we're doing it right. I don't wanna rush it just to rush it. I wanna make sure we're, we're doing everything according Speaker 2: To it. Yeah, we hear you loud and clear on that. So Speaker 4: Yeah, I, you guys wanna come out for a site visit? We'll we'll come out, maybe come out on night where boiling in the shack and you guys can hang out for Oh, the same exact time. Yeah, there we Speaker 2: Go. Yeah. Speaker 10: If there's a way to stake out the corn, I know. No, not exactly but you know, I know we're not even close to permitting, but Speaker 2: Just, just have a sense of where it is, where it is and
Speaker 10: Do that. Yep. That would be helpful to me at least. Speaker 2: Not gonna be driving stakes into anything for a little while. Maybe, Speaker 1: Maybe real stakes in the ground instead of people standing at the corners got Speaker 10: Stake. But rebar is Speaker 1: A torture. That, that was what we did when I went out was we had staff stand. The quarters would be Speaker 4: Nick stood on Speaker 11: One corner. The snow is good for the maple. Right. The trees need the Speaker 4: Snow patch. Yeah. Actually, strangely, a hydrant broken. I had to dig through, I had to dig a four foot hole last week and the ground is solid. Yeah. And Speaker 2: It's solid. Yeah. Speaker 4: The one of my colleagues, the trustee said it's the first time in nine years
that he's seen the ground frozen. Which is really great because once we get this initial rush for the maples, it's gonna, that sap is gonna start blasting out, which is gonna be really great. We just haven't seen that. I mean at some point, I'll bring it back. The chart of maple data in 2000, like 1999, somewhere in there it was like high 200 gallons of syrup produced. And last year was 64 gallons of syrup produced. 'cause you have sap running all season long now. This is great weather. This is beautiful weather for, for collecting sap. So Speaker 2: Interesting to see what the data says. Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll see what the data says. That's cool. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1: Hopefully good sign for ticks this summer Speaker 4: Too. Killing things that we don't like. Yes. Fingers Speaker 2: Crossed. Cool. Any other, any other questions for Casey at this point? This Speaker 10: Is a little bit of a nitpicky question. Is there a reason why the three or whatever that size property on River Bend Drive was left out in this planning process Speaker 4: In the Taylor State? Yeah. Yeah, good question. We should talk more about that. It wasn't that it was left out, it's just in terms of how many things I can juggle at any given point. We tried a couple different things there, but I think Hugh
and I were working with planting paw paws and persimmon. Persimmon. Speaker 2: Did the blueberries not take, I mean there was a whole blueberry, Speaker 4: Well there was a blueberry operation, but just too many things on like the main piece of the farm to kind of go over there often. Got it. They, the grass has really overtook them. And I don't know if you guys remember, I don't know how much you involved in that site, but when it was actually developed they went and hummed it. Like, so it goes up and down, up and down. Were you part of that when that was there? Speaker 10: No, thank you. Speaker 2: I remember when they were planting blueberries and I did get my
Speaker 10: First really bad case of poison ivy on, oh, Speaker 4: It's property. It's the, the property's really bad for poison ivy, ground wasps and all the other things. So every time we try to mow it for our animal pastures, like we try to rotate our goats through there and Hailey has to wear a bee suit and a, and a basically a mask. Otherwise the ground mos go up. There's also kind of a, like a NIMBY situation going on. Absolutely. Where we tried some different things and they, the neighbors kind of push back and say can't do that, can't do that. But they like the open space, but they don't really like us doing a lot over there. So we're trying to find that sweet spot of what enterprise actually could work on that piece of property.
Speaker 10: Christmas Speaker 1: Trees, edible, tiny forest. Speaker 4: I'm open to all ideas. Speaker 2: I like the paw idea though. That's pretty, pretty cool. Papa's Speaker 4: I heard are the fruit of 2025. Did you know that? Yeah, Speaker 2: I've I've heard that. It's like the hot, hot Well that's, Speaker 1: Dogfish had did a collaboration. They did a, it's like a bottled cocktail drink that's based on, I think that's Papa Speaker 2: Laur. I was thinking about putting, putting a couple in my backyard. Well, Speaker 1: Clover's the food out of Cambridge, they sell them in like little boxes of three paw paws for like a two week period of the spring. I Speaker 2: Was gonna say, I mean they've got like three hours when you Speaker 1: Can sell em. Yeah. And it's, and you gotta eat 'em like the day you
get 'em, otherwise they're gone. Speaker 4: Yeah, they're rot and the pit's huge in them. They're this big. Yeah, they're Speaker 1: Really tasty though. Speaker 2: So let's, you know, I mean, so why don't you guys stay in close contact about this. Let's set up as soon as the snow melts, whether it's an appropriate time, let's get out there and, and, and take a look at it, you know, we'll, we'll do a little bit of homework on the riverfront, the, you know, the fine print of the riverfront around what, what might be permittable within the letter of the law, but also consistent with your guys' mission. Sure. Certainly. And then we can just circle back up at the appropriate time to, to keep the conversation
going on this. Perfect. Speaker 4: Cool. Thank you everybody. Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Casey. Appreciate it. Appreciate your work. Alright, let's move on. What I'd like to do is, because the, the two public hearings are going to be continued, I'd like to pull another agenda item up to the front. I see Adam Glick here on the, on the call and we can just pull that up to the front so we can get this done. This has been respect with respect to the Meadow Pond. Lane Dam. If you remember that, that project there, it's been kind of floating around for a while. So Claire, could you give us an update on
where things stand with that? And then Adam would like to hear from you so we can just keep this conversation going. Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. So I, the Adam had been working with Marcy, who's the landowner where the, the pond is located on the notice of intent form. He and I met and went, went through the form and Marcy agreed to sign off as the landowner. I had let Adam know that, that there were, you know, the additional documentation requirements that would be needed for the notice of intent. When I reached out to Adam to check in at the start of the new year, he and I had a little bit of dialogue about the,
what the requirements are and why they're necessary. And so just felt it was appropriate to move the conversation into the commission format since you guys are the, the jurisdictional authority. And that's where we are here today. Adam, I'm glad there were no weather issues to delay you, that it was a crazy weather day that last meeting. Speaker 12: I I just got over the flu too. So we're really, we're really squeezing it in perfect timing. Speaker 2: Great. So, so Adam, I mean, where, you know, where we stand here is that, you know, this is a project that you know clearly under the We Wetlands Protection Act
and natick's bylaw, you know, to do, to do work that, you know, such as what's desired requires a public hearing process in order, in an order of conditions. You know, I, I do understand, you know, the sense from you and your colleagues and neighbors or, you know, some frustration I think about, about the process and all. But, you know, our job is to follow the letter of the law on this. You know, we're happy to work with you to try to streamline it and figure out ways that we can, we can do it. But the bottom line is that, you know, there are some things that the law just simply requires, you know, we're happy
to work with you, Claire's happy to work with you to figure it out as to what exactly it is that we need and where there might be opportunities to streamline things, you know, and, but out outside of that, there are some limits to simply what we can do legally around this. Of course. So love to love to kind of hear your comments or your sense of what things stand, answer any questions that you have, and then we can just figure out a path forward. Speaker 12: Wonderful. Thank you. I appreciate you having me here tonight. It, it means a lot. I I greatly appreciate your time. So I'll, I'll cut right to it, right?
You are a conference conservation committee. We're a conservation neighborhood. We have the same mission, the same goal. To your point there, we need a partnership. I, I'm here tonight at the mercy of this committee asking for you to, to do the right thing here. I didn't install this weir almost a century ago, I think back in the fifties or even sixties. But the fact is, someone did. And, and when they did, they set in motion the establishment of a rich, diverse and delicate ecosystem that has become dependent upon that wear an ecosystem that has been flourishing
for the past 70 something years at this point. And I'm not happy about having to buy bricks and hydraulic cement and get my weighters on and repair and maintain it, but I will gladly do it in the name of being a good steward of my environment and conserving the ever dwindling and encroached nature we live amongst. We agreed, and I'd say maybe unfortunately, or in blissful or optimistic ignorance, not knowing the true extent of what was asked last meeting to go through the steps that this committee requested. However, we've found it to be a disproportionately expensive endeavor in
both time and money. Again, I don't want to be doing this, I don't want to be here for this, I don't want to take care of it, but someone has to. If there's someone else who could or would do it, I'd love to take a back seat. I'm solely here tonight asking for your help. Simply throwing myself at the mercy of this committee to do what's right. We're happy, to your point, to file the paperwork, pay the visionable license fee, do whatever we have to do there. But the burden placed upon us to the tune of thousands of dollars for surveys and exorbitant fees for doing what members
of this neighborhood have been doing for over six decades at this point, without interference, without disturbance. It, it, it's, it's not right. I'm, I'm asking for your humanity here, for this committee to be, to help us being reasonable. I'm solely looking to preserve nature and, and the world that my children will grow up in, but I I I need your help here. And again, I'm, I'm happy to find what that is. I just, I I need a little help here. Speaker 2: So the, the, the burdens that you're referring to are the things that you'd like some relief from are, are what? It's engineered, engineered drawings to the tune
of thousands of dollars, as you say, which is not surprising. Is is that, is that the main one or Speaker 12: That's the main one again. We'll, we'll pay the fee, we'll we'll file the paperwork, but to be asked to, to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to have an engineer come out and look at this literal pour of concrete that's been there for a very long time. It's understood. It, it's tough for us. Speaker 2: Yeah, understood. For the commission. I mean, and, and Claire, you know, where, what, what room,
what room do we have to maneuver on that? I mean, notices of intent require engineered plans. Yeah. Speaker 1: Well, so I I Adam, after following our email conversation, I did do some digging and some research into sort of what the legal requirements are for these types of processes. And because the original weir structure was constructed either prior to or outside of the wetland permitting process, we don't necessarily have a pathway for presenting a project as, as maintenance of an existing structure.
Because essentially according to the Wetlands Protection Act, this structure doesn't exist despite it clearly existing in the field. If there was an existing permit that had permitted the construction of the the we are, then there could potentially be an argument made for, you know, reasonable maintenance being allowed. Speaker 2: So is that true though? I mean, if, if there was a, a building or I'm, I'm thinking down, you know, like south, you know, south Natick the factory down in South na you know, in South Natick where they wanted to repo, you know, none of which was permitted under the Wells Protection Act. If they wanted to pour some concrete to maintain
a retaining wall or anything like that, they would have, you know, there, it would not be exempt under the Wetlands Protection Act in, you know, as we follow the letter of the law. Is that right? Yeah, so Speaker 1: The, the there, the language of exemptions in the regulations, and, and this is specifically towards what I'm gonna refer to as public infrastructure or, or utility and stormwater infrastructure. The weir structure, had it been built under a Wetlands protection Act, could have been made, made the argument that it's, you know, stormwater management structure and then reasonable maintenance could be done under it
as a stormwater maintenance structure. The date of construction sort of puts that into a little bit of a gray area because the stormwater management, stormwater infrastructure exemption really only applies to things constructed after 2008 that has OM plans. But there's case study that demonstrates arguments being made for the maintenance of older systems under that same exemption, but that really does apply to things that had or were permitted under the WPA or the, the prior DEQ. And so, and,
and Adam, I do think that I mentioned this in in one of our very early email exchanges is, is that there does need to be documentation of the work that was done in a manner that meets the requirements of the WPA and the, the regulations regarding notice of intents under the WPA do require engineered stamped plans for this type of project, at least as far as my review of the Wetlands Protection Act, you know, states, I'm just gonna pull that up right here so I can pull up that reference. Yeah. And
Speaker 12: Just out, I dunno if it's helpful, but would it help if I just kind of talk through maybe the, the work and what we're talking about here, the, the caliber and the, the resources involved? Speaker 2: Yeah, Speaker 11: Jeff, Jeff Richards, you know, if we're constrained by the limits of the law or if we, if we try and exercise, you know, some relief to you, the, it could be appealed by someone else and overturned by the state. So, you know, just, just our, our our body giving you relief
doesn't meet guarantee relief. Right. And, and this is, it has happened before when we've done that for another situation in town where a neighbor appealed it, exercised their right to appeal it to DEP and DEP overturned it. So yeah, I know it's a tough situation. I've thought hard on it, but you know, like right now it's kind of a no win situation of even removing the bricks in the, in the resource area, you know, can't be done unless we were to permit that, you know, so it's, you know,
if the situation hadn't, hadn't, not laying blame here, but if the situa if this was like, like we wanted to do this, that would be a situ, a situation that would be easier to deal with. 'cause we could say, don't do that 'cause it would take this amount of effort. You put us in a position where you've done something in the resource area intent, you know, not indicting your intent here, but undoing that is complicated. Even to get back to zero is complicated. Right. And, and we've had these situations before where after the fact actions have had to be papered
and done in accordance with the law. So it's, it's consistent from my seat of, of how we've always acted and understand there's some burden with that. But, you know, there's many other people in town who have done the thing that they have to do to get the result that they want. And it's very difficult to kind of peel back something and reach in and just say, well, we'll grant an exception for this and then open ourselves up again to being overturned or to people demanding the same exception.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that any, any project where, where we issue an order of conditions has the potential to be appealed no matter what, you know, so I think that's, that's just bottom line reality here. I think what what Adam's looking for is guidance and I, and I think we all would agree we have to follow the letter of the law. I mean, that's just non-negotiable. What Adam's looking for is, you know, I think is a, and Claire, I think you've, you may have done this or maybe, maybe there's more we can do, you know, that, are there places where the process, you know, if,
if the commission feels that this is a worthy and permittable project, are there opportunities for us to streamline the process in a way that is consistent with the letter of the law that would allow the applicant to accomplish what they want to accomplish? You know, maybe in trying to reduce some of the burden in the meantime. You know, I, I mean I think that's, i I I don't hear Adam asking for us to cut corners or to, you know, cut 'em a break or certainly not. Yeah. Right. And, and I'm not hearing that.
And so, you know, and so, you know, the answer may be, huh, you know, if it's classified as X or if it's, there may be circumstances where maybe it could be a maintenance activity or something like that. If we can come up with that, great. If after that diligence we just, we determine that there just ain't a path forward, you know, we gotta do this, then that's just the reality of it. And we just have to live with that. You know, there's no, I don't see, assuming that, assuming that fully engineered plans are required, there's no mechanism for the town to provide any financial relief in terms of, you know,
the town cannot spend its resources on private property, period. So that's just, that's just, that is also the law. So I think, you know, so Claire, I mean, I'd like to just kind of hear from you in terms of the research that you've done. You know, in your opinion, do we have to have fully engineered plans in order to do what the applicant is proposing to do here? Speaker 1: Yes. So Adam, like I said, I did a bunch of research and I sort of came up with a, a very sort of baseline level of documentation that I think would be necessary in order to have a permit application that not only we
but the state would consider complete, and that could be in defensible through an order of conditions. So I don't necessarily know if we need engineered plans. What I do think we need is surveyed plans, so not necessarily a PE stamp, but a PLS stamp. And I think what we would essentially be looking for is a existing conditions survey. So what is the pond? Where is the weir slash you know, brick structure located? What is the elevation at the top of that structure? And what is the pond level elevation? All of which would, would be in theory capable ca within the capabilities of a surveyor,
not necessarily an engineering team. I think that we would need a, a written narrative of any additional work that you guys are hoping to do out there. 'cause I know that the sort of the violation notice came down, I don't know if you guys had finished or, or were still in progress, but if there's any additional work that you guys are looking to do, we would need a written narrative regarding that work and a narrative, you know, stating the specifics of what had already been done. So you mentioned the bricks and the hydraulic concrete, so just noting those specifics. And then the last thing that we need, and again, this is something that I think without, we will potentially be back in the same position
with a future homeowner in 20, 30 years. We need some kind of operation and maintenance agreement and plan and agreement with the landowner in order to access the dam legally. So that way, you know, the concrete we are structured did not have this, it wore down and now you guys are in this position where you're building it back up. So by establishing an operations and maintenance plan that can be recorded at the registry of deeds as an agreement between the landowner of, you know, 26 Bunker Lane. And, and you know, if there's a neighborhood HOA
or something like that, maybe that's the appropriate group to be referenced, but, you know, is there any plan maintenance for the structure? If so, what would that maintenance be? So that way if the structure needed repairs in the future, we have that operations and maintenance plan so that a future project can be billed as reasonable maintenance of an existing structure. Speaker 12: Larry, just to interrupt real quick, if you don't mind. Could you unmute Joseph Carnival? He's our attorney. Speaker 1: Absolutely. So, sorry. I Speaker 12: Thank you. Speaker 1: We have had some zoom bombings on recent town meetings, so I had to turn off folks' ability to unmute Speaker 12: Themselves. Un understood. Thank you. Sorry. Speaker 1: No, he should be all set now.
But, so those were the three pieces of documentation in, in addition to the NOI form Adam that you and I went through, I think those are really sort of baseline pieces of documentation that we need in order to be able to give the state a complete notice of intent that they aren't gonna flag and send back comments on, and to be able to issue an order of conditions that references documents that is defensible in an appeal. Speaker 12: Just to ask a silly question, what, what's the going rate on a survey Before I agree to anything here, Adam, Speaker 1: I unfortunately cannot tell you that
because it really does vary pretty wildly. Great. I think for this instance, you know, you're not necessarily doing a a lot line survey or anything like that. We're, we're surveying the pond and the existing structure. So I can't provide any dollar amounts for you. George, Speaker 13: You're talking about a survey? Yes. You said the pond and the structure. Now, if we're doing a survey, a survey of the pond, I don't remember any mention of any specific species in the pond.
Mm. And what I'm getting at is, is there a potential endangered species? Speaker 1: So I don't believe Speaker 13: Objected species or threatened species. I Speaker 1: Do not believe, I believe the only area in Natick that is mapped as an A CEC or a estimated or priority habitat is that that vernal pool area on Elliot Street, right near the town boundary. But I can confirm that on mass mapper. Speaker 13: Well, what I'm thinking of is if there were a survey done by some of the groups that we've worked with, and they did actually find there was an organism there,
and this thing, in theory, this dam was put prior to a lot of the regulations that are limiting us or limiting these folks. Where would, where would that stand? That might be, Speaker 2: That would open up, that Speaker 13: Might be a way to ease some things that these folks are looking at or looking towards. Speaker 1: So I'm not quite sure if I, so are you saying we reach out to some of the, the wildlife survey groups to see if there's an opportunity? I think the problem is that the type of survey that they would be doing would be a, a wildlife survey, not necessarily a land survey
Speaker 13: That, well, that's, I'm not talking about land, I'm talking about species. Speaker 1: Oh, so you're saying that the, the maintenance of the dam would be integral to the, to Speaker 2: Protecting Speaker 1: Of that Speaker 13: Habitat has been established there. And you know this, it would be a very difficult argument to say that the species was not there prior to any, you know, it was, could have been in whatever the waterway was before the dam was there, and now it has flourished or it's it's still there. I'm just wondering if, you know, it's a Speaker 1: No, it, it's a good point that I hadn't
and hadn't thought of previously. This area is not mapped as estimated or priority habitat or as a vernal pool, which obviously makes sense because of the type of water body that it is. But I think that, I don't know how the town would get in involved with that. I, that is, Speaker 13: I'm, I'm thinking, well, I'm thinking of something for the individuals there to, you know, if they have to pay for a survey and you, you know, you you, you were discussing different types of surveys
or engineering, you know, assessments. This type of a survey I think would be probably more reasonable for them Speaker 2: To Speaker 1: Approve though unfortunately, I, if it doesn't turn up anything, then there is the potential that money has been spent without any, with still needing to go back to the beginning of the process Speaker 2: Is, you know, the law is clear. But I mean, if, if, if it's built after 1983 Yep, then it's, then it's, it's not built under the auspices of, of the Wetlands Protection Act and therefore it would probably need to be re permitted.
Yep. So that's that, that's clear. Is there any circumstance, sorry, go ahead. It was, Speaker 12: It was built in the fifties, I wanna say, or sixties. Speaker 1: Oh, so what Matt was saying is built after 1983, Speaker 2: Right? If it was built after 1983, then it, there would be wind, you know, it could be a maintenance activity. Yeah. Speaker 1: There would've been a permit associated with the project. Oh, Speaker 12: Maybe, maybe it was built in the nineties then Speaker 1: Sadly Adam, I have a little too much historical e evidence from the, the residents of the area. That problem Speaker 2: Is there. Just to throw this out there, I mean, is there any circumstances under which an
RDA would be applicable here? Speaker 1: Because it is resource work within the resource area? Within the resource area, it this, I would be hesitant to issue an RDA because I would not necessarily see it going unappealing by DEP. Speaker 2: I think D because it's in the resource area, de that would be a big flag for DEP. Speaker 1: It's after the fact. Speaker 10: It's to the middle of the reef resort that's, Speaker 2: It's not just on the it's, it is in it Speaker 10: Standing. Yeah. That's, that's Speaker 2: What's the Right, that's fair. That's fair. I mean, so is there Speaker 10: A reason why we're not entertaining and a limited project here?
Speaker 1: My only, Speaker 12: I guess that's my question. Is there, is there something in between the, the NOI and something else? And I assume that's what you're trying to get at. I apologize. I don't know other options here, but Speaker 1: That's totally fine, Adam. So what Mike just brought up, which is a limited project, is a, is a category of project under the state regulations that has a, a lessened burden to meet performance standards because of certain goals that it is accomplishing just inherently by the project type. My only concern about limited project is that then the burden of proof is to demonstrate how it meets Speaker 10: Well the projects which will improve the natural capacity
of a resource area, such as projects include, but are not limited to the removal of aquatic nuisance vegetation to retard pond, lake Eutrofication, and the thinning and planting of vegetation to improve habitat value. And there's a few other things, but yeah, Speaker 2: We could make the argument around habitat value and all of that. Speaker 10: I mean, I just, I think some of the words I I I've, I, I'm guess I'm maybe 'cause of my profession, I'm looking words mean things, so Speaker 2: In the context of laws. That's true. That's what I, funny how that works. You know,
Speaker 10: So I guess my, my value system is around just looking at the history and the value to this. It, it, i, I would at least would like to see somebody explore the limited project scope. And then if that is not possible, Speaker 2: What would that get us? Speaker 10: It would provide us an order of conditions through a limited project application. Speaker 2: Would that, would that relieve, would that relieve the burden of engineered plants? I mean, just thinking very practically, Speaker 10: Yes. Speaker 1: It, it would essentially be a, a pathway for Adam
to demonstrate that he doesn't need to meet certain performance standards because his project inherently holds value just because of the type of project that Speaker 2: Right. That's all, that's all good, but just where the rubber meets the road, you know, would that relieve him of the, of the burden that he's seeking relief from, which is, Speaker 1: And that's what I, I wanna do Speaker 2: A little bit more drawings and all that other stuff. And if that's the case, then that it's totally worth exploring. Speaker 10: I think you'd need to have some very, as Claire mentioned, detailed narrative Yes. Would be. And because that is gonna drive your order of conditions. Yeah.
Speaker 1: 'cause the, the limited projects, which this is a nice little just segue for everyone. The, we are expecting the south Natick dam, NOI sometime this spring, which is gonna be filed as a limited project as well though I guess for the opposite of what this project is, the removal of a dam rather than the building of one. So the limited projects, we are more limited in the types of things that we can put in an order of conditions because essentially we, if we are accepting the project as a limited project, we are accepting the fact that we can avoid and we can,
or we can minimize and we can mitigate, but they don't necessarily have to avoid essentially. Speaker 10: And then the other thing is, is just around words. And so if it wasn't aware, but an existing trail or some other structure that was for recreational purposes, Speaker 2: That, that feels a, a little fuzzier to me. But Speaker 10: We, there's clearly, you know, we don't know unless we have the person who constructed, we have no idea of why, what was the intent. That's fair. Speaker 13: It may have been to cross the
Speaker 10: Waterway, may been across. So, you know, there's things, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to create gray areas, but I, I do think that the limited project, and I've, I've had some very heated conversations around that in other parts of this wonderful commonwealth 'cause of the work that I do. But, you know, if it's eligible for that, I would, I would, I would say that we should explore that. If it's not an eligible path forward, then yeah, it, it, you know, I would agree with Jeff. We're kind of in this, we're in this really tight place
that doesn't give us any flexibility. Speaker 14: What's the delta between like survey type drawings in full engineering package though? Speaker 1: Well, the thing, so the thing you're paying for when you're getting full engineered plans is you're essentially paying for a surveyor stamp and an engineer stamp. And the reality is, I actually just was reading an article about this this morning. The difference between what engineers can stamp and what surveyors can stamp has to do with the information that they're conveying on the plan sheet. So if we're looking for a record of what the conditions are on site currently, that's something that a surveyor could do.
If we're looking for projected conditions, generally that is something that an engineer is being required to stamp. But does Speaker 14: It sound like, I mean, Adam, that, that they already have estimates from a, an engineering firm and they're outrageously high. It is. That that's what Speaker 10: I was, Speaker 12: I was gonna say could 10, almost $10,000. Speaker 14: 10,000 bucks. Speaker 1: Well, so I mean, if the commission is comfortable with it, Adam, if you wanted to reach out to some survey companies and see what that cost might look like, and I can do some more research on the limited project option, and then maybe we can come
back at the next meeting Absolutely. And, and continue the conversation. Yeah. Speaker 2: Adam, I mean I, I think what you're hearing is, you know, we're, you know, we're happy to, I don't think we have any concerns about the project that's proposed. And we're happy to work with you to find a legal pathway path forward to do this. Totally understand the, the burden that you're confronting here. You know, let's, let's do that homework and then we can circle back and see what we found. You know, if it turns out that the survey as described is 500 bucks, you know, then we can talk about that. If it turns out that we could classify this project
and it really does fit as a limited project under the Wiltons Protection Act, then, you know, it sounds like the commission is, is, is willing to work with you to see if we can designate it as such in a, in an airtight, you know, in an appropriate way. Speaker 10: I mean, is it a wildlife impoundment that's mentioned in Speaker 2: As a limited project, you know? Speaker 10: Right. I mean there's a, you know, I, I'm not trying to be a, well, there's also a pain in the pain in the butt here. It's just, you know, Speaker 2: No, you're opening a door to a path, possible path forward. I mean that's not, Speaker 1: And I'll do some more research, but it's, and this was language I hadn't gone back and double checked.
But there is a limited project category, maintenance, repair and improvement, but not substantial enlargement of structures, including dams, reservoirs and apparent works, head walls, culverts, bridges that existed as of April 1st, 1983 that were in existence. Correct. Speaker 2: So there is, there's a category of limited project where it could, Speaker 1: The, the question is, this was originally built as a we are structure. It was never intended to, you know, be a damn structure. How do Speaker 10: We know who called it a where Speaker 1: That is there, there's the good point
Speaker 10: Fisher, the fishermen. Speaker 2: It's okay. Yeah. So I mean, Speaker 1: So we can look into this a little bit more. Certainly we Speaker 12: Spoke to the frogs and the turtles and they all agreed it was aware. Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So I think, I mean, you know, there's some avenues here Adam and I think, you know, good on you for, for pushing on this. Let's explore this. Let's, let's come back at our next meeting and see what we found. And you know, you can share what you've figured out Adam from the survey side of things. We'll we'll look into the pathway for the limited project route and then let's touch base in a couple weeks time and see what we found.
Speaker 12: Wonderful. I appreciate that. Claire, should we connect maybe next week on this and just figure out some the path here? Yeah, Speaker 1: Absolutely. Adam, I'll do some research early next week. So if you wanna shoot me an email we can set up some time for, for Wednesday or Thursday next week. Okay. Speaker 12: Beautiful. I really appreciate everyone's help here. Thank, thanks a bunch. Speaker 2: Straightforward. Thanks Adam. Appreciate your time. Thanks Speaker 12: All. Speaker 2: Alright. Okay, so next item on the agenda. We've got two public hearings that, so 11 Commonwealth Road, the state park. That was, was that formally opened last time? Speaker 1: No, the state park one is the one we need to open this evening.
That's what I thought. And then the lake constituent path one is the one that has been already Speaker 2: Opened. Lemme go ahead and just open up 11 Commonwealth formally they're waiting on a DEP file number as for a continuation. So in accordance with the Wetlands Protection Act of Natick local wetlands BI article 79, the NATA Conservation Commissioner hold a public hearing on a notice of intent filed by Kevin Chu from Conoco Engineers and scientists representing Rael Silva Mass DCR for property located 11 Commonwealth Road map 11 lot 16. The proposal is to construct a new 60 by 40 shade pavilion and accessible pathways that's open.
Would someone make a motion to continue this to our first meeting in March, which is on March four sixth? Sixth on March 6th. Thank you George. Is that seconded? Seconded. Thank you. Was that David? Yeah. Great. Thank you David. Any discussion on that? All in favor in the room David? Yes. Chris? Yes. Alright, so that's continued to March 6th. Great. So next item on the agenda is the, one second. Let's go back to the, is a continue, we're gonna continue the Lake Katuit path. Speaker 1: Yes. I will just note, because that was such a big filing there,
the applicant team did provide response materials that are in the Google Drive that address a number of my prior staff comments, including pulling out some of those highlighted cross sections that are applicable to our portion of the project instead of having to scroll through. I think it's seven plan sheets of cross sections. Speaker 2: Great. So if folks could take a look at those before our March 6th meeting. We, let's continue this to March 6th. Would someone make that motion please? So moved. Thank you Chris. Is that seconded? Thank you Jim. Any further discussion on that? Those in the room Chris? Yes. And David? Yes. Excellent.
So that's all continued to our March 6th meeting. That concludes the public hearings part of the agenda for this evening. We talked about Meadow Pond Lane, we've got minutes December 5th, December 19th. Jeff, do you have any comments or revisions to those? I put some Speaker 11: Yellow. Okay. Highlights on a, a couple of 'em. Like I didn't know if you were, you had a Z in front of Mr. Downey's name. I didn't know if you were I indicat He was sleeping at the time so I got rid of, but there was a, there were a couple of 'em, you know, some of 'em I corrected some I just kind of brought Speaker 1: Were they all on the, were they on 1219 minutes or the 12 five minutes?
Speaker 11: One on each. Speaker 1: Oh dang. Because I wrote the 1219 minutes, so I was trying to figure out if they were all my mistakes, which wouldn't surprise me. It's been a minute since I Yeah, Speaker 11: But they're very minor like a they and should have been. Oh okay. You know, or, but then there was the Z in front of. Speaker 1: Yeah. So we could motion to approve as amended by Jeff. Speaker 2: Okay. Is that a motion from you Jeff? Yes. So a motion to approve as amended by Jeff for December five and December 19th. Is that Seconded? Speaker 11: Seconded. Speaker 2: Thank you. I'll take Jim's any further discussion on that. Those in the room Chris? Yes. David? Yes. Excellent. Alright, general business discussion.
We've had the annual update from the community organic farm. That'll be a good conversation there. Tree protection bylaw, we'll punt on that one. For this one we don't have any update. We do have a proposal in front of MAPC to get some assistance on crafting the bylaw. Speaker 1: I did send a follow up email to their team earlier this week just checking in on the status of that application radio. Speaker 2: Great. Let's put that on the agenda for our next meeting as well. Absolutely. We're gonna have some on ongoing conversations over the coming weeks. Claire Floodplain, district overlay zoning bylaw update. This Speaker 1: Is just a quick update for folks since I did present this at the last meeting. A couple of really minor language updates requested from
Eric Carlson at the state on the, the Floodplain Language and Town administration is the formal sponsor for the town meeting warrant article. The warrant closed today at 5:00 PM Excellent. So that will be on for SPRINGTOWN meeting and that will bring us fully into compliance with the National Flood Insurance Program and also reflect the new effective FEMA map dates. Speaker 2: Great. Alright, so that is that. And then other updates from you Claire from Community and Economic Development? Fema? Speaker 1: Yeah, just a couple of quick ones.
Our hazard mitigation plan should be being adopted by the select board in next month. We just got our comments back from FEMA that we're working to address right now. The FEMA review is the final step before the town adopts the hazard mitigation plan. So then we'll be set for another five years and re eligible for a number of grant funding opportunities. Which is great 'cause it's gonna align perfectly with a grant that we're applying for for the dam removal. Other quick updates, the Piro Pond Bridge. Been keeping the commission up to date on the progress on that. We did receive the final cost estimate back from the
floating boardwalk company. It does fit within our budget with a little bit of wiggle room as well with the requested changes, the brown color of the decking and the additional features on the handles. So if the commission agrees, I will have Kyle move forward with permit ready drawings for that and look for the commission to be permitting that through notice of intent sometime late March, early April. Speaker 2: Just to add a couple comments to that one, one thing that I explored, I may have mentioned this not last meeting, I wasn't here but the one before that I explored with the town administrator just to make sure that
the funding for this project is not, wouldn't, you know, is not subject to or part of the override proposal that's in front of the town. This is funding that was earmarked for conservation related projects. Can't be used for anything else but that. And he had no concerns about it. So it's not like this money would be coming out of a pot that that that you know, needs Speaker 1: To be redistributed or Speaker 2: That could be redistributed to mitigate the impacts of the potential override. It's just completely separate pots of money. And he was very comfortable with us just proceeding with the plan. But I made that inquiry 'cause I didn't want us
to be putting a proposal out there. Absolutely. As another expense on the town. You know, when we're looking at an override, Speaker 15: Our ours is a billion dollars. Is that right? Speaker 2: Oh boy. Holy dude. Speaker 15: Sorry, I should hot Speaker 2: Mic. That is now on the public record my friend. No, sorry Speaker 15: Chris. Speaker 1: I'd be doing a lot more work if I had a billion dollars to Speaker 15: Work for. Yeah, me too. Speaker 2: And the other thing is that, you know, this is a project where it's been in the works for years and, but we're gonna wanna cast the net widely when the notice of intent is filed and we start having these conversations just, you know, for, from an abutter perspective, just
to make sure people know about it. Speaker 1: Matt and I discussed briefly maybe even having this as a general business discussion item in advance of the filing and notice it to the public to sort of initiate that conversation even in advance of the public hearing started. Right. Speaker 2: So anyway, just wanted to, just wanted to lay that out there. But also really just to clarify the financials of it. 'cause it is, you know, and at this time when there is an override going to be an override on the ballot, I just wanna make sure people know that this, this is not impactful to that. Speaker 1: Absolutely. So does the commission have any concerns with that or, or do we think we're good to move forward into to drawings? Speaker 2: I think we're good to move forward.
Speaker 10: May I ask a question? Yeah, of course. Just, I'm trying to figure out the FEMA thing. 'cause I'm hearing mixed signals about the FEMA flood maps. Are, are, are, are, are they accepting the new flood maps or are we going back in time where the So Speaker 1: We, the preliminary maps, but you know, the preliminary maps that have been out for about a year and a half now are now becoming effective. Okay. So they are gonna become the effective map dates and Speaker 10: They're not gonna learn, the administration isn't rolling these back to some Speaker 1: Other No, the, our prior effective map dates were from a
combination of 2014 and 2016. Our new effective map dates will be 2024. Okay, Speaker 10: Thank you. Speaker 1: The other update that I have, and this is just an informational update and I, I do see that Rick is on here, so he'll find this interesting as well. I attended a really great MACC lunch and learn a couple of weeks ago about synthetic turf fields. Interesting and permitting under the Wetlands Protection Act. It was actually Jen Steele, the Newton conservation agent who was presenting on that, my former boss, about the Albemarle Field project that was just permitted by the city of Newton, which is a new turf field going into riverfront area.
It's a long Cheesecake Brook. For folks who are familiar in Newton Albemarle field gaff pool. It's right up in the northern section of Newton. It may be one of the ugliest stream corridors that I've ever seen. There was a, there was a car floating down it during one of the storms 'cause of the flash flooding washed a car into the channelized stream. It's a mess out there. Speaker 2: Oh, over by Fessenden. Speaker 1: Yes. Over. It's right on Fessenden. So it was a really, really great presentation about where commissioner and wetlands jurisdiction falls when it comes to the issue of turf fields. We're seeing a lot of communities in Massachusetts put bans
or moratoriums on the installation of these fields. And it's been a really controversial topic throughout the state. I wanna say in the last three to four years, ever since the data about the impacts of turf, specifically the, the infill material have come out. It was a really, really great performance. I will share with the commission the link to that presentation if folks wanna look at it. I did also reach out to Jennifer to get a copy of the order of conditions that they issued for that field for folks who are, are unaware, the town is initiating this spring sort of a, a design review study of the JV field at the high school,
which is the small grass field behind Memorial Field looking to redesign that field as either a natural grass or a turf field. The design review will determine from a cost benefit scenario, which of those is the most appropriate. But that is a site that is in riverfront area, the stream that runs in between DPW and the field is a perennial stream. And so just a really, really great presentation on a topic that is, you know, very much relevant to some coming conversations. So I just wanted to make the commission where I was gonna share that presentation. Speaker 2: What's the takeaway? Well, you know, what's, what's,
what's her takeaway in terms of the takeaway jurisdiction? Yep. And also, you know, most recent science in terms of ecological concerns mean people are chucking around PFAS and all this other stuff. I'd just like to hear what, what the latest state of the science is. And Speaker 1: There, there are a lot of concerns and it was a really good presentation 'cause we had someone from the state level as well talking about some of the, you know, restrictions on these types of chemicals from like a water quality standpoint and all that sort of stuff. So the takeaway was, and the album moral field site is very different because the lot as a whole has a significant amount
of impervious area already within the riverfront area. So a slightly different scenario than what we would be looking at at this particular parcel. So they were already over their 10%. So there was a little bit more flexibility in what the commission could permit on that site. It was good that they're in our same region because it was, you know, we're not piecemealing redevelopment versus new development. So it's either one or it's the other. Their field was permitted as a redevelopment field because of the percentage of degraded area on the site and they did permit a turf field. It is using one of the alternate fill methods.
So it's not using the sort of most toxic crumb rubber fill. It's using one of the alternatives. They're permitting a, a low wall and a perimeter drain around the entirety of the field to maintain the sort of tracking of crumb rubber or infill off the site. There's also a required monitoring program that they're required to submit reports on how much fill is needing to be added each year. How much essentially they're losing to tracking offsite. There's a lot of conditions, but the, the only argument
that can be made under the Wetlands Protection Act regulations is if materials are being proposed that concentrations of chemicals in the runoff leaving that field Right. Would impact the wildlife habitat capabilities of the receiving waters. Speaker 2: But hold on a second though. I mean we could, we could here in Natick though with our not being on MWRA water. Speaker 1: Yes. I, I mean that that's the other big difference between the Newton project and their project is Newton does not have any groundwater local bylaws 'cause they're, they're not a well water community. Our aquifer protection district bylaw would play into some
impact of the review and permitting process of this project. Okay. So, Speaker 2: So we're gonna have some homework to do. I think as part of this to really understand kind of the latest state of the science. You know, there's the human health impacts, which we, which we Speaker 1: Don't really have jurisdiction Speaker 2: Over. We don't really have jurisdiction over. But it's hard to avoid. It's hard to ignore those if, you know, for whatever those concerns are. You know, and I think there's some, there's some legit, I think there's some stuff that's bandied about that's probably not scientifically legit, you know, all all to be discussed.
But I think the ground, you know, the wildlife thing certainly Yep. The groundwater implications I Speaker 1: Think is certainly something issue. And I think that the design review study is gonna be a really interesting thing to look through when it comes out because given the proximity of the wetlands to that field, I am curious as to where the groundwater bet sits. Because turf fields, I don't know if folks have seen cross sections. They, they have substantial sub base requirements for drainage, for filtering for, you know, sand versus stone versus infill versus the turf layer. It's, you know, potentially six to eight feet down that these systems are built out in terms of depth.
So if the ground wall was sitting, oh, go ahead Chris. Speaker 15: No, I was just gonna say, and you know, in that particular location they're talking about removing that whole swath of like natural grass to, to put that turf in. Right. I mean it's, that's Speaker 1: What the design review study. We'll we'll see if it is a cost or a benefit to the town based on the costs, Speaker 2: But then we're gonna need to Yeah. Then Speaker 15: It just seems so close to a resource area that's almost a no-brainer. Speaker 2: Yep. It's almost a no-brainer. What Chris? That that, that it Speaker 15: To to not go for that i an artificial turf. Speaker 2: Yeah. But I'd then wanna see what,
what the trade offs are. I mean 'cause to maintain an athletic field Yeah. The durability that that needs to have under heavy use what the fertilizer and herbicide protocol would have to be. Speaker 1: Good point. And that's why town is going through this design. It ain't Speaker 2: Gonna be simple. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 10: Complete vast basketball on that grass now. I mean it's, yeah, that's, Speaker 2: Oh, oh it's, it's a horrible, the current field is is in horrible condition. Something needs to Speaker 15: Yeah. It's pretty spotty. You're right. Speaker 1: And there, you know, there's arguments to be made from, from a playability standpoint. There are certain sports that require turf fields now for playability for certain levels of the sport.
And I, so I think the school is really trying to weigh the use of the field. Sure. And then will obviously be coming into balance that with the alternate perspective. Speaker 2: I mean this is, it's it's going Speaker 1: It, there's a lot of really interesting science and research coming out that I know there's a lot of Natick residents who are really involved and interested in that. And I've been trying to keep on top of all the research as well. Just 'cause I know that this project is coming down the line. It's Speaker 2: Gonna be a very interesting conversation with a lot of tradeoffs. It's gonna be another hockey room. Oh yeah. Alright. Other, any other updates Speaker 1: I will share around?
I, I did not advertise this as well as I probably could have. We did have the first public meeting on the Natick High School MVP project. It was really Oh, I saw that. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: It was more of a public introduction. But the recording of that meeting is available and there's a little brief follow up survey. I'll send around the links to the commission if anyone wants to watch the recording or do the survey. It was a really great presentation. Myself, we and Sampson we're moving forward with some additional community engagement on that project. I'll be presenting to the high school sometime in March with the Earth Club. There'll be an in-person meeting in May, late May.
And then a site walk during the Earth Day activities where we'll walk from one South main. We're gonna go down Route 27 through the Johnson School and those sort of residential neighborhoods. Oh nice. Up to the high school and then back up Pond Street to really sort of give folks a picture of the watershed that we're trying to deal with through this project. Cool. Speaker 2: On April five. So I'm, I'm the commission's representative on the upper upper Charles conservation Land Trust. And on April five we're, we're organizing a, a lecture seminar by the executive director
of the Charles River Watershed Association At the library. I'll, I'll be putting some advertising out about that in the, coming, in the coming weeks. Yeah. Yeah. At the Morris Institute Library in the big room, in the basement. Oh great. So we will, that'll be a nice event. Alright. Anything else? Not to get too political, but go USA for hockey. I no wonder what the score is, you know. Okay. So if there's no further, no further agenda items. So we'll make a motion to adjourn. Motion new adjourn. Thank you. Jim could count on you for that. Right. Get home, go watch some hockey. Is that seconded?
So thank you George. Any further discussion on that? Alright guys, see you all later. Chris, David, thank you.