Speaker 1: April 16th meeting of the Natick Planning Board. For the record, this meeting is being recorded. This meeting is being broadcast on Pegasus. To comment or ask a question, use your raise your hand function. If you're on a phone, press star nine. Any individual, an individual wishing to speak during public speak or during a public hearing must display their first and last name on their screen before their microphone can be unmuted. To make changes in your name as it appears in the screen on Zoom, click on participants. To open the participant's menu. Hover your cursor over your entry and click on more.
Click on rename and type in your first and last name. First item on the agenda is public speak. Any individual may raise an issue that's not included on the agenda, and it will be taken under advisement by the board. There will be no opportunity for debate during this portion of the meeting. Any individual addressing the board during this section of the agenda shall be limited to five minutes. Is there anyone who wishes to speak for public speak week? And Amanda, I know it's, Speaker 2: You can actually see right behind you, but I don't see any Speaker 1: Hands raised and I do see no hands raised. Very good. Then moving on
to our unfinished business from last week. I'll go first with the development review public hearing, which we continued to this evening, 99 East Central LLC. We had gotten through the various kind of comments and questions as it related to the project, and we were actually up to the point of the vote when we failed to have the necessary four votes to, to proceed with the action. So we are bringing that back. Does anyone have any questions or points they wish to raise
before we begin to vote on that mo? That article? Yes. Speaker 3: Yeah, just apologies. Apologies for missing the meeting and I did watch the entirety of the hearing and filed the Mullen rule affidavit. Awesome. So be able to Speaker 1: Participate Speaker 3: On this. Speaker 1: A, a plethora of wish re rich riches. Alright. This is easy for me to say, right? Speaker 4: I should mention too, I apologize for semi being here last time. Certainly not the way I planned it. And I did watch the video even though I was there
for most of the meeting. I also watched the video on Ntic Pegasus, and I filled up Mullen's form as well. Speaker 1: Great. Thank you very much. So there was a motion before us to approve the special permit for signs and advertising devices at 99 East Central Street. So, does someone wanna make that motion? Speaker 5: Yeah, I, I move approval. Speaker 1: Is there a second? Second. Okay. Motions made and seconded. Any comments, questions? All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed? That is unanimous. Thank you.
Speaker 5: Thanks Ben. Speaker 1: It's a good thing your office is only next door. Yeah, Speaker 2: But you don't wanna vote the decision. Speaker 1: What's that? Speaker 2: Did you wanna review the decision? Speaker 5: I thought we all had drafts. I thought that was the Speaker 1: Purpose. Yes. Speaker 5: Review it first. Speaker 1: I got nothing for Speaker 5: Sign. Alright, so then I move, we close a public hearing. Second. Speaker 1: Okay. Motion to close a public hearing. Made and seconded. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Speaker 5: Aye. Aye. Speaker 1: We're on. The next is an application that I think we have not heard yet because we had wanted to get the
IE Central Street Project out of the way. Amanda, do you, do you have information on, are there folks coming over to give a presentation to us? Speaker 6: Yep. Ben Stone is coming over to give a presentation on the proposed project. Basically what you are looking at is 2 47 West Central Street. The planning board did previously approve this. As for the use, it did fall under the Dover Amendment because it was a educational center at 2 47, 2 47. Just so you are aware, there are two parcels that are identified as 2 47. There's the front parcel, which is where the daycare
learning center will be. That's 2 47 West Central Street. And then you have 2 47 West Central Street are, it's the rear building and that is the Verizon building that is not part of this application. So the focus of this is the applicant has requested signs that do not comply with the section five. Yeah. Five H of the zoning bylaws. So they are seeking dimensional relief underneath that. Alright. And Mr. Stone is here via Zoom. Speaker 1: Alright, very good. Mr. Stone. Welcome.
Can you hear me okay? Oh, we can't hear you. He's Speaker 5: Muted. You're muted. Speaker 1: Could you unmute yourself if you can? Speaker 7: Yeah, there we are. Okay. Took a couple tries. Good evening. Yes, I can hear you fine. Can you hear me Speaker 1: Okay? We're good. Speaker 7: Okay. I, first of all, I'd like to apologize for not being able to make it in person, just stuff outside of work, family stuff. So here I am again. Yeah, we're here. Pretty straightforward. The learning experience.
They have their standard branding. Again, I don't, should I show my screen or do you guys wanna pull up some of the images? Speaker 1: It would be, it would be good to do that. And Amanda, can we, when once those images get posted, can we make them certainly larger on, on the screen behind you, but Yep, Speaker 6: I could change that. Speaker 1: Okay, thank you. Speaker 6: And I can pull 'em up if needed, but it's sometimes easier if they share it. 'cause then they can zoom to where they need to go. Speaker 7: Yeah. Again, we have some images here. Gimme one second. This is, zoom is not my strong point,
but I I will manage, I promise. Speaker 1: Alright, thank you. Speaker 7: Yeah. Speaker 8: Okay. Speaker 7: Okay. So I should be able to, all right, so I have some images up. I can share my screen. So I'll start off with, I dunno where those things, here we go. Okay. The zoom is getting in my way here a little bit. There we are. Okay. So what I'm showing you here, so the learning experience,
we've done a number of these. They're National, national Daycare Center, and the, the driver for their, their signage here is usually, I'm sorry, everyone could see this, right? Yes. Okay. The driver for the si the, the size of their branding is based on the building format here at this location. This was an existing building. We did not build this one ground up. So this whole south elevation, this faces the street. The goal here is to, is to fill this space so the signage doesn't get lost on the building.
Again, this shows a 63 inch overall size for bubbles. And the learning experience lettering here, Speaker 1: Sorry, bubbles being the elephant. Speaker 7: Bubbles is the elephant. Yes. Meat bubbles Speaker 1: And that. So that's, that's over five feet tall? Speaker 7: Correct. Okay. The Speaker 8: Spokes derm. Yes. Speaker 7: Yeah, it looks, and then I, I've also pulled up some photos. So in real time, this is what this would look like. So it would be in this, this corner of the building here. The West central Street is to, to my, to our back. If we're looking at this here. So it fits in here
and I believe in place it'll, it will fit the space again. It, it does not comply with ordinance. The other piece of that is the entry here. We have the same size, which goes over the side entry, which is the parking lot. And again, would be seen from this. So this is not, if, if you're driving west, down West Central Street, this would be on your right. And I believe there is some visibility here from the street. You do have Newton building specialties right next door. So it blocks some of it, but it basically, you see this,
and again, it becomes a branding thing for, for the learning experience. So again, that is this location here, both of the same size for the side entry and the street facing. And those are the, those are the two signage for this that exceed the 24 inch ordinance. Speaker 1: All right. Speaker 7: Yeah. Any questions? It's pretty straightforward. I, I mean, I, I think it is. So, Speaker 1: Alright, so just so that I understand
that the sign we're looking at on the top, that, that is on the screen right now is the what? West facade? Speaker 7: This is south. Oh, Speaker 1: South. South. It's south, okay. Speaker 7: Yeah. So this face is West Central Street as you pull in. So that would be, I'm sorry, that would be this location. So this is the main entrance and that would be placed right here. Speaker 1: Okay. And what was it, I'm trying to remember. Oh, Amanda, we talked about how we're, how we're calculating the, the square footage of the sign.
Speaker 6: That is correct. Yeah. It would be on the bottom. So since most of those letters that are what we would call hanging down like the X and the N, but Speaker 1: That's not a Speaker 6: Tail. That's correct. So it would not be, it would be followed by, if you followed the e on the bottom in experience, the bottom of that would be taken straight across. So you would not include anything that hung below that. Sorry. And then the other one was looking at that was the predominant one. 'cause the upper one wasn't,
Speaker 1: Can I ask, just because when we have a, a dangly bit as we've called it, the, you know, the y the tail on the Y xs don't require a tail. Correct. So why are we not calculating that? Speaker 6: You would Oh, okay. You would, okay. What I'm saying is, is what you would calculate would be everything from the bottoms of the E. Okay. Normally, but in this case, you would want to 'cause the X. And it does look like part of the n part of the middle E Quite a few of them do hang down a bit
below the es. Okay. And they're not, you're correct, they do not typically have a, a descender. Speaker 1: So what is the calculation for the, the drawing, the box around Speaker 6: It? So that would be calculated into the square footage. Speaker 1: Okay. And do we know whether that complies with the, with the square footage for Speaker 6: That would be a question for the applicant, whether the calculation that they provided included the descender, but not real descender or not. Speaker 1: Okay, thank you. So Speaker 6: We would need clarification on that. Speaker 1: Alright. I will, I will stop hogging the mic
and let let others have comments and questions. Andy, Speaker 5: Thank you. I heard you describe this as a branding, you know, the, the way that the sign looks and so forth. I, I'm happy to, to share with you that we, we've always viewed signage, not necessarily as branding or advertising, but more as like a site identifier. In other words, I don't expect a lot of people to be driving down West Central Street and say, oh gosh, there's a learning center I'm pulling in. So it's more like, people are gonna try to find you,
they're heading your way and it's not like a spur of the moment type thing. So that's why we approach these signs as trying to be site identifiers and not so much as advertising. So with that, I, I find the, the font with the different colors and the way the letters are as very hard to read. It's probably one of the larger branding items with the, with the blue elephant, you know, being over five feet tall. I think, I think there's enough square footage
here to, to do this. And I, I'll say that I, I think I'm okay with the 1, 2, 3, 4 A, B, C, DI, I don't really know if I would count those as advertising or signs, you know, that I, they're more like decorative. But in general, I, I find the, the font pretty hard to read. And I think I would be in favor of making the font bigger and the elephant smaller. And maybe, maybe using the same font, but using all one color. I'm afraid people are just gonna drive by and they're just gonna kind of see it as a mess.
And I, and I understand that the, the, the facade above the main entrance is facing east. And that's probably not gonna be very visible from the roadway. But the, but the south facing sign is, and you know, we, over the years we've spent a lot of time on signs and we kind of have all developed our own personal preferences on them. So I'm just expressing mine. I I, I prefer something which is easy to read, clean, not confusing to drivers who have so many other things distracting them. So I would be more in favor of a, of a fully compliant sign
where all the letters are compliant, where the logo might be a little smaller and maybe consider using, if you want to use that same font, maybe just one color for all of it. So, but I I, I, I don't think we're too far away from a fully compliant sign. We're getting more into style here. So I, I think we, I think personally, you know, we have to be, I have to be a little careful about that. But those are, those are my thoughts. Thank you. Great. Speaker 1: Thank you Peter. Speaker 9: Thank you. And as Andy said, we've all got kind of a different approach to this.
I'm almost, I'm inclined to think that this is a branding that's somewhat new. I, I'm not sure about the logo and the elephant as whether that's essential. If you could take the text itself, I think the text is fine. It's playful enough. It's, it's going to attract attention. I think it's, if it's larger, it'll be even more legible. If you could take and make the lettering the text is as large as possible within, it Speaker 1: Can't be over the letter height cannot be over two feet because they're within 200 feet of the street.
Speaker 9: Oh, I thought this was way, there's still, it's not back. No. Well maybe the lettering that maybe the text has expanded a little bit because I think it is, well I just think the let the elephant is in the way. It's, it's the elephant in the room is in the way. That's it. Thank you. Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you Doug. Speaker 3: Yeah, so I guess with applications like this, rather than the board doing all the work here, I, what, what is being asked,
what exactly is being asked in terms of what's compliant and what is not compliant? And a little bit of data on that. Are we 10%, 20%? What are we a what are we being asked to approve under the bylaw in terms of its context, dimensions, et cetera. I'd like to know what would be a compliant sign versus what's being proposed. Just because you're proposing it doesn't mean you get it. So I'd like to hear, you know, a little bit more about that. And, and the why. We have three signs I believe that,
that, that are being proposed. Speaker 1: That's Speaker 3: Right. The south elevation, the east elevation and the NA monument sign. Speaker 7: Yeah. And yep. Correct. Yep. Speaker 3: We can start Speaker 1: With the height of the Speaker 3: Monument sign. I'd like to hear each, you know, again, the rationale for each one. What would be compliant? What are you asking for that's within the bounds of what we can approve and the why? I guess my, you know, branding's one thing, signage. I understand, you know, that commentary on, I honestly think these are, it's kind of garish, the, the, the, the coloring.
But it's, it's whatever, it's the corporate brand and I'm not gonna question that, but yeah, it's three signs. It's a lot of color, it's a lot of splash. And the monument sign is gonna be two sided. Correct. So, you know, that's a lot of branding for one building. So if you could just kind of provide the, the context, the data, you know, the comparison of what would be compliant versus what you're proposing, and again, the why you're proposing it would be very helpful. Speaker 7: Okay. I'll, alright.
So as, as far as the context of what we've proposed, the, I guess we'll start with the monument sign. I've reviewed this and actually met with David out on the site. We were reviewed each sign and dimension wise, our overall dimensions here for the monument sign with the signage are all compliant. Speaker 1: Could you tell us the square? Sorry? Could you tell us the square footage on that? Of, of how, what that is? Speaker 7: Two. Okay. This one is, that's 17.5 square feet.
Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you. Speaker 4: That's per sign, Speaker 7: Correct? Yeah, the total of this. Of this, yeah. So each side, so there's a, there's a east side and a west side, correct. Oh, that's the monument one? Correct. This is the monument. Correct. Okay. Yeah. Yep. Speaker 4: And what's the square footage of the ones that are on the building? Speaker 7: I need an extra minute for that one. Sure. If you could gimme a sec square footage of that. That's 79.5. A little under 79 and a half Speaker 1: For all three. Speaker 7: So no, so the monument sign is
17.5 each side. And then each one of these, we would have two of these. So there's one on the south elevation and one at the entrance in the parking lot is just over 79 each. Just about 79 Speaker 3: Each. Speaker 1: 79 each? Speaker 7: Yeah. Speaker 3: Okay. Seven, nine and a half each. Okay. Speaker 7: I rounded up a little on that. Yeah, but that's fine. Speaker 9: Are we considering the text on the canopy as part of the sign? Speaker 1: Sorry, Speaker 9: I would think Speaker 3: Good question. Where it says academy of Right Early education. Speaker 1: Yes. That, that should be part of the calculation. Speaker 3: Yeah. So what is that, what is that dimension where,
Speaker 7: Geez, those are just like letters we just attach. So here we go though. 1 21. Speaker 5: Well, well if you take 63 and a half inches times 180 inches, that is like literally 79.5 square feet. And that includes the, the text academy of Early Education? Yeah. Speaker 3: Yes. I dunno. Okay. Speaker 5: So, so that one's 80 and then the one above the entrance is basically the same size without, without the verbiage. So I I think you could consider both of 'em
to be just under 80 square feet. Okay. 80, 80 and 17. Speaker 3: Okay. So again, what, so how does that match up with what would be a compliant sign? Speaker 1: It's one too many signs. Speaker 3: Okay. Speaker 1: Or start. She What's that? Speaker 4: I have a question. Yes. 1, 2, 3, 4, A, B, C, D. Do those count as a sign? Speaker 1: I was not considering them, but I, I would turn to the rest of the board. Speaker 3: I, it's a tricky one. I, I personally would think that's a design, it's a part of the building design. Speaker 9: Didn't we Speaker 3: Have something like that at the, it's not,
it's not an identifier, it's not telling you an an address. It's just Speaker 1: We've, we've counted things in previous years, including like Ben and Jerry's, whether they wanted to paint cows on the side of their building. That was considered to be in effect a sign because it was clear that those were Ben and Jerry's cows as opposed to a pastoral scene. Speaker 4: Yeah. So if a different business came in here, they would get rid of that immediately. Of course. It's not gonna be part of it. Speaker 1: So, Speaker 3: So one sign too many is what you're Speaker 1: Saying?
Yes. And then what about doing, because a maximum of three signs, you could have only one sign per side of building, but including monument signs not to exceed three signs. Speaker 3: So is the monument sign considered two? Speaker 1: No, we've always considered those one. Speaker 3: Okay. And then just dimensionally where, what would a compliant sign be Speaker 1: For the monument sign? Speaker 3: Well, for any of them. And you said the monument sign is compliant. Speaker 1: It's, it's Speaker 3: 17 and a half Speaker 1: Square feet. They're they're allowed 50 square feet, Amanda. That's correct. Right. Speaker 3: Check, I mean this, you know, thank you again.
I, this should be part of the application and it should be squarely in front of us so we can look and understand what the heck we are looking at. What Speaker 1: What the Speaker 3: What Sorry to be frustrated, but yeah, Speaker 5: We, we used to do so many of these, and I guess I've got the numbers burned in my head, but it's 80 square feet on the building, on a building. Yep. And you can have one on the front and on a side. So you can have two facade signs. You can have three three Speaker 4: And it could be 80 square feet per side. Speaker 1: Actually can have three. Speaker 5: Okay. But they've got two and then you can have a monument signs. No, Speaker 1: They have, don't they have three?
Speaker 5: No, there, there's one southwest east on the south facing west. 1 35. There is non west Speaker 1: Elevation. No, none the west. Okay. Speaker 5: No, there's two that's like, yeah, there's, there's just two facade signs and then there's one freestanding sign. So I think that Speaker 1: In which case, the number of signs is Speaker 3: Acceptable. Okay. So the number of signs is acceptable. Speaker 5: And the, and then the 80 square feet is for a facade sign. If you're less than 200 feet from a roadway and they are less than 200 feet. Feet. Speaker 3: So, Speaker 1: Okay. And the letter, the letter height on the building, Speaker 5: 24 inches. Okay. And like that X probably, if you actually measured it is probably just about
23 inches or so. That's the largest letter. Speaker 1: Yeah. But the, yeah. And the letters I see are, they're coming in around Speaker 5: The e at the end is 21 inches. The G above it is 21 inches. Yep. So, I mean, you know, I, I think you are kind of talking about a package that's compliant Speaker 1: And then just checking on the, on the elephant. 'cause that problems, the elephant in the room. No, Speaker 5: Well played. Speaker 1: Sorry. So just understanding what that sign is. If you, if you put a box around, it's kind of two boxes, but around the elephant
and the lettering, what is the, Speaker 5: Well, I Speaker 1: Total square footage. Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, I think that's your six three and I, I'm sorry. Times 180. Go ahead. Is your 79.375. Speaker 1: Sorry, what was that? Speaker 7: Yeah, I i I didn't wanna interrupt but I did include the elephant in the overall Speaker 1: The elephant has to be considered as part of the sign. It is. Could Speaker 7: Have. Yeah. Yeah, I did, I did that. Speaker 1: Okay, so it's part of that 79.5, Speaker 7: Correct? Yes. This whole piece here is part
of the 79.5. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 9: Ask you how you determined to put a building sign facing east and not one also that faced west Speaker 1: The topography makes it Yeah, Speaker 4: The road kind of, Speaker 7: Yeah, we have the, doesn't Speaker 1: Work Speaker 7: The train station on the backside of the building. And it's, it's wooded. It's wooded and there's really no visibility from the other side. Speaker 4: So you're facing east, is that the main entrance? Speaker 7: Yes. This one? Yes. In the parking lot. Okay. Speaker 4: So that would kind of make sense. So Speaker 7: Yeah, this, this east side would go here.
So this is your parking lot. Street is to our left looking at this photo. Speaker 4: Okay. But that is the main entrance. Speaker 7: That's correct. Okay. Speaker 1: So the non-compliance that warranted this being done as a special permit, Amanda, is what Speaker 2: The Speaker 1: Blocks the, the size of the elephant. The elephant and the blocks next to the roof. Yeah. I, I have to say, I find, I find the elephant while cute, very distracting for the, the scale of the building it. And because we don't actually go in, if there is a logo, we don't have a,
we don't make it comply to the letter height for a logo. So I'm just trying to understand what, what the elephant, the maximum would need to be for the elephant. Do you remember? Speaker 9: No. Okay. Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be part of your, Speaker 6: So wouldn't the elephant be part of the square footage, Speaker 1: Which I understand he has said that it is. Speaker 6: So that's included, that's all part of the 79 80. Yeah, Speaker 1: That is, and that is correct, right, sir? Speaker 7: Correct. Yep. Speaker 5: We've, we've had a lot of different, you know, things added onto signs that were various heights.
We, we really are kind of in the land of the subjective. 'cause literally if you put a box around this, it's complaint 80 square feet, it's okay Speaker 1: Then that's, then there's Speaker 5: A, there's a big blue elephant. Yeah. You know, we have had signs mostly taken away from us because of free speech issues. So we don't ha we don't have much of a legislative argument. I think in terms of telling the applicant that you need to change this thing. We certainly have preferences and we've all expressed them, you know, but I don't know how to enforce that.
Speaker 1: No, and I think that the question I, and I can't remember which one of you was saying it about whether the blocks themselves should be considered. I may, it would in how when we were considering more of these, right? Those would've been considered part of the signage. And what I probably would have said is, is if they were dead set on keeping those blocks of color to consider keeping the blocks of color, but not having the letters, the alphabet letters and the numbers so that it doesn't become part of the sign.
Speaker 4: So I guess we have a couple things to keep in mind. So we have total number of signs, but if those blocks that are count, if they count, not only did the next to sign, but kind of now the total square footage, if we wanted a, if we want to think of it as 80 plus 80, they were allowed, right now it's 80 plus, 80 plus the space for this. So it's, it's more than the, you know, 160 would be. So, Speaker 1: I, I mean I think the Speaker 4: Size is that that would legitimate discussion. Yeah. Speaker 5: So these are seven feet by two feet.
So that's basically, so, so the little block segments are about 14 square feet. Speaker 1: Right? Speaker 5: So you could say keep the 1, 2, 3, 4, keep the A, B, C, D, lose the elephant. And then you can actually, you'd have a little room to make the learning experience larger and centered and you know, the whole thing would still probably be under 80 square feet. Speaker 1: But I think we have to count. So we, the point is that we do have to count the square footage of the blocks. Speaker 5: I, I i, I go both ways on that. I, I could see just, you know, skipping it,
call it a decoration and you know, leave it alone. But, but to Alan's point, you know, the next business that comes in there is gonna instantly take down the blocks. I mean, it is part of the design. Well, yeah, I think I could go either way on that. Speaker 1: Well, and not just that, but it, it is the, the same color palette as the rest of the sign. Yeah. And so it is, it's very clearly part of the sign just by the, the kind of the color palette. So Speaker 5: The elephant itself, Speaker 3: Can I read the design definition? Speaker 1: Yes, Speaker 4: Please. Speaker 3: Any letter, word symbol, drawing, picture, design,
device, article or subject that advertises calls attention to or indicates any premises persons, products, business or activities, whatever the nature of the material and manner or composition or construction, Speaker 1: Boom. Speaker 3: That is our definition of a sign. So to the extent that those blocks fit any of that Speaker 1: And they do, they Speaker 3: Would be probably considered a, a sign. I don't necessarily love that to be honest with you, but I think that's kind of what that says. Speaker 1: It does. And one of the reasons why we've always been careful about that is, is that you,
you don't need to be kind of advertising something very specific, but by making it clear through the, the kind of color palette, the shared color palettes and so forth, it's clearly meant to draw attention to the, the business at hand. Yeah. So sorry to the applicant, when you count the block. And I would, I I, I hesitate to think that we count the blocks by just saying this little piece of color, this little piece of color. Because they read as a
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I think you'd go as a form. I think you'd consider them seven feet by two feet. Yes. Speaker 1: As opposed to counting them individually. Right. Speaker 5: So, so those, those are each 14 square feet. Speaker 1: Okay. So that's 28 square feet. Speaker 5: The elephant looks to be about 20 square feet. So what I'm thinking is, you know, you, you have, I think, I think you have 80 square feet to work with here. So I'm just throwing this out there. Lose the elephant center the learning experience and make the learning experience. And the 1, 2, 3, 4, A, B, c, D equal 80 feet. So I think the 1, 2, 3, 4 might get a little smaller,
maybe a couple inches smaller or a couple inches narrower. And the learning experience might get a little bigger. And I think as a package you'd end up with 80 square feet. And that's, now, that's just the eastern facing one. I don't know about the side one. 'cause they, the elephant is there maybe, maybe one elephant on the side of the building. Speaker 1: Oh, that's right. 'cause he doesn't have the blocks to Speaker 5: Correct. You know, I know this gets awfully picky, so I apologize in advance, but geez, we spent a lot of time on stuff like this. So, you know, the, the, the, the south facing one has got the elephant, the name
and the text academy of early education now, now boxed altogether that's about 80 square feet. And you know, I suppose I could live with that. I, I still think it's a little clunky to read. There's just a lot going on. But I think that might be a way of tweaking this a little bit and having compliant numbers. Speaker 3: Can the elephant have a home on the monument sign? Speaker 1: I I think they're right at the 50 square feet. Speaker 3: 17? Speaker 1: No, actually no, it's seven. It was 17.5 per side. Yeah. Speaker 5: Inclusive of the Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah. The monument's quite a bit smaller. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And is the elephant on the monument side? Yes, it's, yeah. And that included, that's included in that square footage. Yes, it's okay. Speaker 7: That's correct. Good. Speaker 1: So I think yes, then, then the issue is just compliance by incorporating in the square footage for the colorful blocks that are being kind of wrapped around the, the columns of the existing building. Speaker 7: Yeah. So you can see, so these are just painted plywood that are, that our carpenters do. And then we just have the 1, 2, 3 A, b, c done put on these.
Speaker 1: And so those would each be a two by seven foot sign in effect. So they, they would, they would each be 14 square feet, Speaker 7: I think that's correct. Yeah. Two by seven. Yeah. Speaker 1: So you, you would have to have for the, that adds 28 square feet to the signage, which leaves us then with what? 'cause you said that was the building signs. Speaker 5: Well, in that facade it would be 108. No, but I think she was saying if we subtracted you talking from the 80 Yeah. 52 square feet. So 52 and 28 would
Speaker 1: Be 80. Yeah. So then, then the sign, as it now appears, and this may cause call into question the elephant, but on the sides where the, where the blocks are displayed, that those signs are going to have to be smaller to accommodate the maximum size requirement. Speaker 5: And again, if it's just, if it's just a carpenter making it, you could just go 1, 2, 3, A, B, C, make the, you know, make them a touch smaller. And then I, again, I'm still proposing lose the elephant and make the learning experience a a, you know, the, the balance of your 80 square feet
and just center it in that space. Speaker 7: Yeah. And Speaker 1: The one sign that has no blocks could have the elephant, Speaker 5: The one sign that has no blocks. Yeah. Speaker 1: This the one side of the building the Speaker 5: Side. Yeah. The one facing 1 35 south. Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, the south. So the south facing side, right. Wouldn't, could have the elephant because it doesn't have the blocks to have to account for. Speaker 5: If you have all that, it'd be great to see and you agree it would be great to see a proposal that reflects those. And then we could probably vote it next time. Speaker 1: Now are you just confirming, are you with the sign company or with No, Speaker 7: I'm the, I'm the contractor.
I've, my sign company filed much later than I had requested. And then it took quite a while to get like a response in movement. I understand departments are busy and then I came back that it doesn't conform due to overall si oversized sign. So we're within the square footage, but it's with, but it's oversized. So I, I guess I didn't really understand that what I would be proposed to offer if it, if it helps close us, even though we're compliant here. I would, I would propose that we,
it is kind of a, a meet in the middle sort of thing is we keep, keep our monument sign as it is. I don't think there's really any question there. And I would propose to remove, I could get rid of bubbles on the entrance and the south elevation facing the street and just have the learning experience on this corner facing the street and here, center it, get rid of bubbles here and keep the a, B, C 1, 2, 3.
So if we got rid of two bubbles, I know it's still in different sign locations, but as a no proposed compromise, if I just lose the elephant, both elephants on the building shift, this Speaker 1: The only elephant experience, the only, so the only elephant is the one on the monument sign, Speaker 7: Correct? Yep. Speaker 1: That Speaker 6: If that's the case, then there would not need action by the planning board because there would be no longer relief needed. Speaker 1: So, Speaker 6: So he could just file the building permit with those proposed changes. Speaker 3: So again, I, this is not the, well I dunno,
clarity on this stuff is so important. So we don't spend time talking about that man. So again, I am not so I I hear you. The Andy's telling me, I think you're verifying it, Terry, that square footage is com regardless of the column signs. Okay. The build, the, the, the two signs, the east elevation and the west el, I'm sorry, south elevation, east elevation are compliant from as proposed, as proposed compliant with the, the bylaw
as is the monument sign. It's compliant. So why are we here talking about a special permit? Speaker 1: I believe it was because the building commissioner believed that the elephant was overly large. Speaker 3: Okay. But it's not, it's within the square footage. Speaker 10: The but if we had the 1, 2, 3. Speaker 3: Yeah, but that, that's us talking about that now. Okay. So, Speaker 11: Right. But I think he calculated Speaker 3: That who, who did building Speaker 11: Commissioner. Speaker 1: So he calculated it with everything they had. We said take away the elephant. Okay. And, and he, and,
and the applicant has said we'll do so if the building commissioner were looking at it today without the elephants. Speaker 3: So the reason why this application came before us is the two, the AB 1, 2, 3, A, B, A, B, C, D. Speaker 6: It was also my conversations with the building commissioner was that the applicant was not able to remove the elevator bubbles. So Yes, poor bubbles. So therefore that's why it was Speaker 1: Here. That's why it came to us. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 6: I mean Speaker 3: I'll get Why does the, why does the logo, if, if, if, if bubbles the elephant is the branded, why does that matter
as far as the signage? It, if it's within the square footage, Speaker 1: But it's not. If we're counting the Speaker 3: Box, it is it, somebody just verified that, again, this is my confusion. 80 square feet, including the elephant. That is what has been asked three or four times and verified three or four times the 80 square feet on the east elevation and on the south elevation. Complies Speaker 6: No, no bubbles can either stay and remove a, B, C, D. 1, 2, 3, 4 or bubbles gets kicked to the curb
and you can keep 1, 2, 3, 4. Speaker 3: Forget about the 1, 2, 3, 4. Forget about that for a second. That's the sign. Forget about that for a second. Speaker 6: FE building commissioner Speaker 3: Does look, go to the, go to the south elevation, which is the exact same thing that appears on the east elevation. Is the south elevation square footage compliant with the zoning bylaw as proposed? Speaker 6: It's 80 square feet or less? Yes. Okay. Speaker 3: The east elevation, same thing. That component of the signage complies. Speaker 1: No, Speaker 6: No, because you have three signs. The building commissioner viewed it as three signs.
Speaker 5: You're right Doug. The rectangle itself with the elephant and the language is 80 square feet. Speaker 3: Yes. And those forget about the A, B, C 1, 2, 3 that complies, if it was on its own that would comply on the east elevation, it would also comply on the south elevation. Right. It would also comply on the monument sign. Yes. Okay. There was Speaker 5: Some confusion about whether the elephant being 50 or 63 inches was too high. But I don't think there's a Speaker 3: Restriction on that. I don't either. I'm, I'm good with that. So the, so now the, the, the 2 1 2 3 A, B, C is the difference maker Yes.
In terms of the square footage. And that's why we're here talking about that. Thank you. That should be easy. Well, yeah, you would think so. Speaker 1: I thought that, okay. What you just said sounded like what I thought we were doing, Speaker 3: So Yes. But Terry, the, the having that laid out so we don't spend an hour talking about it would be extremely helpful in the future. Okay. So now we have a proposal where the 28 square feet on the 1, 2, 3, 4 A, B, CD is now in the mix and four bubbles
gets axed from the building signage, but still has a home on the monument side. And if all of that combined square footage wise complies or is it the number we're talking about? Speaker 6: The number You were fine 'cause you're allowed three. Okay. Which includes the monument sign bubbles can stay on the south elevation. It just has to be on the east elevation. Bubbles are the numbers. Block the blocks. Just pick one or the other. Well it's Speaker 3: Show from one elevation, one or the other. One of the, because if it's both then it's more than the number of signs. Right. Okay. Got it.
Speaker 9: Question Terry? Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 9: Is the south elevation reflecting the entire south elevation of the building? Speaker 1: It's facing the street, yes. Yes. Speaker 9: That's the entire building. Speaker 1: Yes. It's, I don't think they're the o only occupants. Speaker 9: And the door are they is shown over the word elevation. Where's that going to? Is that another function, another building business? No, Speaker 7: This, I'm sorry, I can answer that. This goes to a a, a corridor. There's a, a laundry room here on the left side. So if you walk in this door and go to the left, there's a laundry room. If you walk in and go to the right,
you're in the main corridor that goes down the middle of the Speaker 9: That's part of the learning experience though. Speaker 7: Correct? This we have the whole Speaker 9: Door. It's a secondary exit or another of fun. It's Speaker 7: It is egress. Yeah sir, it was existing so we kept it. Speaker 9: Is there any particular reason why the sign itself is way down at the, Speaker 1: Because that's where the entrance is Speaker 9: On there. But the entrance is around the other side, isn't it? No. Speaker 1: Isn't door itself isn't, isn't the entrance is right around the corner from where you see the south sign? Yeah. Speaker 7: Yeah. In here. So they, they like the sign where you pull in. They, they like it here.
A lot of their buildings across the country just ship the signage to where there's the most, most traffic. Of course Speaker 9: The driver will be on that side of the building called. Right, but not the entrance. The entrance, yes. Except this far in the back. Yeah. The entrance is on the east side, isn't it where the canopy is? Yeah. Speaker 7: I'm sorry, the, the entrance from West Central Street onto the property? Speaker 9: No, into the building. Speaker 7: Into the building. Speaker 9: The main door going into the building for this function is on the east side. Shown on the screen right now. Correct. Speaker 1: Right around the corner from the south facade.
Speaker 9: I'm just wondering, well, I'm wondering why the, the on the, Speaker 1: Don't worry about why they want it there. Speaker 5: Peter likes to have the signs over the doors. Speaker 9: I no, I wanna find the entry and right when you put it where it is, it, it just is confusing to me. But then again, I won't go there. I fine, Speaker 5: I know you like having the side, Speaker 9: It doesn't have to be in the middle. Speaker 5: Right. Speaker 9: But here, there's a doorway there that is empty. Who knows what that door is. Speaker 1: I think they want to encourage nobody to go in that door. Speaker 5: By the time you drive in, you are gonna be past the main entrance
and you're gonna be sort of in the back. That's where the parking is. Right? The chance of walking around the building on the side where, so the, what's depicted there? That, that is on the side of the building and that's the main entrance. Speaker 9: This points up. Then something else that may be in the, in the submission of an application, a plot plan. Just giving us an idea if this is the building, these are where the signs are. Yeah. So that we can see it from a directional point of view. Not just an el, not Speaker 1: Just the Speaker 9: Elevations. Not just a, a text of saying south elevation or east elevation. Speaker 7: Okay. Speaker 1: So if, Speaker 5: If we play our cards right, we may not see this again. This may go straight to the building commissioner
for approval and we don't see this again. Speaker 1: Well, and what I would say is if for some reason there's something that we miss that the building commissioner still feels is at issue, I don't want to make this the permitting process that never ended. So if we are comfortable that this meets the simply the building permit requirements and I think with the removal of that elephant, it does that. Speaker 3: Well I think, I think that the, the removal of the A BCD 1 23 It does, it would be compliant. That's what I just Speaker 1: Oh, either way.
Speaker 3: Yes. So either way come back. If you want to come back with however that math works for you, you may not have to come back here for a special permit. Yeah. So, Speaker 1: But what, but that's what I'm trying to say is that I think the solution that we ended up with is the one that we don't need to sign. So if that's the case, Speaker 9: Continue. Speaker 4: Do we have to talk about lighting or do does lighting come under this purview? Speaker 1: If it's an on, because Speaker 4: I noticed it says a spotlight on the monument sign and I think it's his, there's a sign.
Correct. The the ones on the building face Speaker 7: This. This. Alright, so Monument sign first. Yeah. Has a small directional onto the signage. Yep. What, Speaker 1: What's what direction up Speaker 7: It. It points towards the sign. Speaker 1: Towards the sign. And Amanda does it meet with lighting requirements? The, in terms of the directional angle on the on, I'm not sure the sign illumination. The sign will be externally illuminated by a, by a flood. Yeah. Just that there's no problem with, Speaker 6: We want the building commissioner check that.
Speaker 1: What's that? We Speaker 6: Would have the building commissioner check that. Yeah, Speaker 9: We like we did discuss that idea at length. I think the last meeting if it's in the ground. Yeah. And this then we were concerned. Yes. Speaker 1: Yes. 'cause that was the one for 99. Speaker 9: This ground, this is shown in the ground. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 9: So I think the same concern that we were discussing last Speaker 1: With Yes with 99 East Central. Speaker 6: It is a different concern though because you have a solid base. The other one at the previous application had nothing underneath. There was I think a 16 inch clearance from the ground to the bottom of the sign. So therefore the light would go through.
This one is actually gonna be completely absorbed by the base and the sign for the sign itself. Speaker 4: As long as the spotlight's not super bright or super wide. Yeah. So do we, and this is, I haven't had the experience, do we have to worry about or well, right, do we have any kind of jurisdiction over how bright the sign, the, the light can be or how big it is? Speaker 1: We, we can and in and in terms of if to that we, we usually check to make sure it is not kind of blinding cars as they're driving by. But to Amanda's point, that's something the building commissioner would review.
Speaker 4: Okay. Speaker 1: He looks over the plans Speaker 9: Concern for light that Speaker 4: Goes up like pollution too. Uplighting Speaker 9: Up. I thought there was a concern for that. Not that it goes under the sign or not, but going up the, I thought we, you know, I don't mind it because I think they can have a light that'll be very controlling to that focus on that sign. But I thought there was a huge concern about uplighting Speaker 1: To that, to that point, what Amanda had said is that that would be something a building commissioner would, would look at. Oh okay. Because it is, it would not be coming back to us because of the ch because of the change made that makes it,
or they may still make that, that makes it compliant. It's not, it's no longer ours to be handling. So Amanda, should we be continuing this in case for some reason we've missed something that the building commissioner might flag? I don't wanna, it Speaker 6: Would be up to the applicant. I would defer to the applicant on that because he is under a special permit. Which if he wants, if he is adamant having 1, 2, 3, 4 A, B,
C, D and bubbles on that same side, then that's what the special permit's for. If he says, nope, we're gonna get rid of 1, 2, 3, 4, A, B, C, D and keep bubbles or get rid of bubbles and keep those, then he just goes straight building permits. So I think that that he needs to make a decision. Does he want to stick with everything or does he want to have a compliant side. Speaker 1: Okay. So to the question to you then in terms about of what you, what your preference is. Speaker 7: So we're here with special permit. If we could agree under the special permit on this east
elevation to remove bubbles and keep the 1, 2, 3, 4, A, B, C, D. 'cause that would be just over the 80 square feet for this elevation. The point of the special permit was to get approval for something outside of compliance. Okay. If we could agree to that on the east side, that would be great. Speaker 1: Oh, okay. So in other words, by having 1, 2, 3, 4 and no bubbles, it's very slightly over 80 square feet. Is that what I'm understanding? Speaker 7: Yes. Speaker 1: So that it, it would be ours
to got it to vote and do. Yeah. Did you want, so with that is, did you had specific questions on the uplighting? Speaker 4: Well I think for one just kind of, I guess a question as far as what it was gonna consist of and, and how bright it was gonna be. But also the other one, I, I think the, are the the signs on the building itself going to be lit or back lit or front lit or Speaker 7: These are lightly, yeah, these are lightly back lit. Speaker 4: Okay. Speaker 7: Oh yep. Speaker 1: Back lit. Alright. So I would, I would say that the light, the lighting, I think you Speaker 3: Will, will you see the colors with the back lighting?
Lighting? Is that the way that's designed Speaker 1: Lit Speaker 7: Or you see it? No, it's back lit. So you see it, you see the color less when it, when it's actually lit and they only light these for the winter when it gets dark at four o'clock. Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay. Speaker 7: For the most part they're not on. Speaker 3: And would you, on the monument sign, would you consider, you know, a down lighting really? I don't know why strategy on that one. Maybe move, you know, the, the content center it in the sign and put some down lighting instead of uplighting Speaker 7: Might be a little tricky.
So this is like an efis with a, with a let, so for me to move all of this down, I can't just slide this down. I suppose we could pipe up the side and do some kind of a gooseneck potentially. Speaker 3: That's kind of what I was thinking. If it works, that Speaker 1: Would be wonderful. Speaker 9: Keep in mind you've got the street number Speaker 7: That's Speaker 3: Higher. Oh, true. The street number's on there too, correct? Speaker 7: Yeah, we, we would have to put like a gooseneck on top of the street, I guess on top of the number. The number sits right up here. Yep.
I mean this, this micro flood, we, we use these, they're, they're, we use these because they're small and they're very focused. They're not overbearing at all. It's pretty much a ni they're a very nice little glow. They're not, they're not a floodlight per se. They call 'em micro floods, but I see what they're, yeah, okay. They're, they're not overbearing. So, Speaker 1: So if we just note that, and this is, Speaker 7: I mean it, this is, this is why it had piped per, you know, in, I've, I've walked this with David, he doesn't have an issue with any of this, but if you guys have a issue with the lighting,
we can discuss doing a gooseneck. I guess my question would be how does a gooseneck throw, you're actually bringing the light higher up where I feel like if, if you keep it down here, you're keeping it low and it's actually Speaker 3: Yeah, I can be convinced. I I'm just, it, it's an idea. Yeah, I think, you know, you, you're gonna have to come back with, you know, the new proposal anyway, you know what you're proposing here. So might as well just continue, incorporate that, incorporate that and continue the hearing to the
Speaker 1: May 7th. Speaker 3: Seventh. I think we can wrap it up. Speaker 1: So if you can bring us back the, the revised plans, that would be helpful. And if you have anything that gives a sense on, on lighting spill for that, the up outlet sign that would be helpful to, to see. Speaker 7: So, so to not continue this 'cause we're, we're up against the clock here. What I would need to remove bubbles from here and lose like four and D on this. Speaker 4: Well I think one concern is just, I don't, I think usually
for the decisions there are already a plan that is can be referenced. Yeah, it's a number of signs though. That's kind of the No, no, no, but I mean rather than just agreeing with something for him, we usually have a decision where yes, we're saying these plans dated this, that show this versus just verbiage. Speaker 1: Although what, Speaker 4: What we, I think he was just hoping for a decision tonight. Speaker 1: Understand? Speaker 7: Yeah. Very, very much so we continued last week and I get it. And here again tonight we all are, I appreciate everyone's time. I'm just trying to, Speaker 1: What if we, if if we put
specific language in there that's that notes that these, you know, that reflects the, the wording is the cha is what will be appearing and then we're not gonna sign it until we've, we have seen the revised plan and then we can all come in and sign it. I'm willing to, to see that we voted Speaker 3: With conditions Speaker 1: With condi. That's fine. With the conditions, that's fine. Conditions that the changes as discussed have, have taken place. Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd be comfortable with Speaker 1: That. And the plans are updated. How does that sound, Mr. Stone? Speaker 7: That sounds fair. Thank you. Speaker 1: Okay. Amanda, do you think that would,
that works for you? Yep. Speaker 3: And what, what would we do with the public hearing? Speaker 1: What I would suggest is that we, I don't want him to have to wait for next, for the seventh. Right. So I would be willing to say we can close the public hearing and then review the documents post, post-hearing and, and sign. Any reason not to take that order? Speaker 3: I don't think so. I think that's sound good. That's reasonable. Yep. Speaker 1: Okay, then let's stick with that. Okay. So I will entertain a motion. Mr. Landry. Oh you,
Speaker 3: The fate of bubbles rests in my hands. Speaker 1: You'll, Speaker 3: So let's see. Motion Have a Speaker 1: Weight of an elephant on you. Speaker 5: It'll be easy. There's no elephant in the room. Speaker 3: Okay. So motion to approve the application for 2 47 West Central Street regarding a special permit for signs and advertising devices as proposed with the plans and application they submitted with the condition that the East Elevation proposed sign does not contain a logo, pachyderm esque Elephant logo.
And what are we doing about the block letters? Are we gonna say anything about that? Speaker 1: And then the block letters remain. Speaker 3: They remain That's fine. So that's, yes. Okay. And that revised plans be submitted accordingly Speaker 1: And that the, the lighting meets with the approval of and Lighting Speaker 3: Building commission meets the approval of the building. Commissioner? Yep. Speaker 1: Sound good? Made I'll second seconded Other comments, questions? Speaker 5: Is the, is the Southern sign also gonna lose the derm? Speaker 1: Well, it doesn't have, but it doesn't have the b the letters. Speaker 5: It doesn't have, it doesn't have to, but I, so yeah, I,
I I have no nothing to add. Speaker 1: Okay. So on, on the motion as tortuously per it's processed, all of those in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? It is unanimous. Speaker 3: Motion to close the public hearing. Speaker 5: Second. Speaker 1: Okay. Motion made and seconded. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Speaker 3: Aye. Speaker 1: Very good. When we have the, the revised plans from you, that will give us the, assuming everything is in order, that will give us the ability to sign off so that you can get moving on your project. Speaker 7: Alright. I appreciate your time and as far as the, I can get you the revised sign.
Do you need a note from David for the lighting at the monument or how do I, how do I follow up with that condition? Speaker 1: Amanda, would you be willing just to check in with David on that? Speaker 6: Yeah, Dave's out on vacation this week. Speaker 1: Oh, this week? Not next week. Okay. So on Monday when he is back Tuesday or Tuesday because Speaker 6: No one's coming here. Speaker 1: Well they luck. They are but they're all running. Yeah. Speaker 3: Are you running? Speaker 1: Okay. So we've closed the public hearing and I, when we have the have plans for us to sign and,
and a decision with the, the kind of changes to the detail, then let us know. We will come in and sign it and then they can pick it up. Speaker 7: Okay, great. So Amanda, I, I upload the revised drawing with bubbles removed and this shifted to the center, to the application, I assume? Yep. Speaker 6: Right into the public port. The open go portal. Speaker 7: Yep. Speaker 6: Awesome. Thank you. Very good. Alright. Speaker 7: All right. Thank, thank you. Thank you all for your time. I appreciate your time. Thank you. You take care Speaker 1: Last because, because this is
the short, what I thought was gonna be the world's shortest meeting is not, it never. Anyway, so zero text circle, which we continued from last, from our last meeting. Yep. Amanda, do you want to Speaker 6: Yep, I'm just waiting for George is here and then I'm waiting for Susan Pratt is coming over. And George, did you have, is Mary Collins part of your project? Speaker 12: No, she's one of the abutters. Oh, okay. Yeah, she is part of the pro, yeah. Okay. Part of the hearing. Speaker 6: Awesome. Thank you. Okay, so zero tech circle. We did receive Reise plans,
which were in the packets provided to you. So the applicant's engineer will provide context to that. And then also a storm stormwater report was uploaded as well. I did not print that. It was 200 and like 36 pages. So it is a fascinating read though. So we did get that information as requested. So I think that maybe having Ms. Sprat provide a review of what amendments she did make since that's the item that we were waiting. Yes. So the Conservation commission or Claire Relli conservation agent
and Bill McDowell town engineer both requested modifications and the applicant had agreed to those modifications, which is what is reflected in the site plan. Speaker 3: Question for you though, before we begin the, so there's two sets of site plans uploaded in the new and then new for this meeting. Yep. What are there, is there a difference between the two of them? Speaker 6: I don't, Speaker 12: Yeah, the mo the most reason has four 10. The lighting plan, the photometric plan. Oh, okay. It was uploaded on Monday and Speaker 3: That's the, and that's the last page Speaker 12: And yeah, Speaker 6: That's, that's what's printed right there on next to your hand.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. Got it. Okay, thank you. Speaker 12: And if you recall the two George Richards South Native law, it's hard to follow up on a bubbles presentation, but the two big issues that were presented at the last hearing were both the parking layout and circulation as well as the lighting and concerns of lighting with the neighbors. So we made some significant revisions. That'll let Susan go over and then we'll answer any questions. Thank you. Great. Speaker 1: Thank you. Speaker 8: This one modify.
Speaker 13: Amanda, do you have the plan to, do you want me to shay the plan? Speaker 6: If you could pull them up, it would be great because I'm getting an error sign with a hand, Speaker 13: So it's not Okay. Speaker 1: These are the plans dated four 10 stamp plans. Speaker 13: Yes, that is correct. Speaker 1: Okay, thanks. Speaker 13: Did it the, did the screen, did it share? Do you see the plan on the screen? No, Speaker 8: No. Speaker 12: Multiple plans. Speaker 13: Multiple plans. Do you, what do you exactly see? So I'm wondering if I might have hit the wrong. Speaker 1: We don't see the one that says 2 17, 1 75 20 don't.
Five stamp plans for four 10. Speaker 8: We see AutoCAD. Speaker 13: You see AutoCAD? Okay. My two screens, you're probably sharing that on the screen. The wrong one. Yep. How about now? Speaker 12: Something's Speaker 8: Changing. Speaker 12: There you go. There we go. There we go. Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you. Speaker 13: So yes, Sue Sprat from Mackenzie Engineering. We incorporated the comments that conservation and DB DPW gave and also the comments that the board gave at our last meeting. Primarily for this plan, this is a site layout. We have reconfigured the parking
where it is just perpendicular off of the existing access aisle to the back. We're looking at adding 19 perpendicular spaces on this side and two on either side of the four existing spaces and the 10 that have been previously permitted. Part of this is we've added a low modular retaining wall at the request of the DPW. So we did not have to adjust the grading behind the wall, which was one of their concerns with the erosion to the abutters. Part of this is that we've added a guardrail
and we've also added a four foot high cedar board fence on top of the wall, which will prevent cars coming. It will prevent the headlights from coming down and bothering the abutters. Part of this was, there was some conversation from the abutters regarding the lighting, the existing lighting that is on the building. After that meeting, the applicant, Steve Mumford was able to provide a picture of the shades on the building were closed. They were three building mounted
lights that seemed to have been what was causing the, the, the, the glare for the abutters. So I was working with Illuminate. They did the original photometric plan and lighting layout and it was determined that those lights along the building might have been installed a little too high and that they really weren't probably the proper lighting for this type of application where the building is high and the abutters are low. So part of the new design is that we're proposing two post mounted lights, down lights
behind the retaining wall. The lighting will be directed downward and it should be very limited, if not any spillage at all. And I can show you the photometric plan to the abutters. Thank you. Yeah. The next plan is the grading and drainage plan. One of the concerns was that they wanted us to add a additional catch basin in here 'cause they felt that the two down here were not enough to capture this exist. The, the new pavement being proposed. So we have added that
and we have to do a little bit of modification to the existing outlet control structure. So our, you know, pre and post match. So we have to plug up the existing six inch diameter orifice that's within this outlet control structure. This plan, I forwarded this plan to conservation and to DPW and they both were in agreement with our solution for drainage and they were happy with the circulation and layout of the new parking. And these are just details, modular block wall. It will be designed by a structural engineer
and stamped at, this is just for illustrated purposes, but you can see that we're providing the wood guardrail to match the existing wood gro guardrail that's on the site. And the for high cedar fence on top of the wall that should prevent headlight spillage to the abutters. And this is the lighting, the post lights that were provided to us. So it's an eight, I think it's an eight to nine foot high. What did he say? 25 foot high from the ground will be the light. And this is the downward strike, you know, micro strike light.
So it's downward. They're all, as you can see, dark sky compliant and approved. Speaker 8: Great. Speaker 13: And here's the photometric plan. So you can see that it's all zeros. 'cause here would be the property line. So there's no spillage beyond roughly. I would say if I look at this drawing, I go back to the first one. So we're looking probably by that, maybe five feet beyond the proposed wall. But there's no lighting spillage along this property line. I think I, if you want, I can bring up the photo
so you can see that if you gimme a few seconds. Thank you. Can you see the photo? Speaker 3: Yes. Yep. Got Speaker 8: It. Speaker 13: Thank you. So this was taken the night of the last, the meeting on March 27th. And you can see that the interior shades are drawn. So there was no light from the interior of the building. It was from these three building mounted lights and the, like I said, the lighting company said those were probably not the proper application and that they might've been installed too high.
So these three will be disconnected. They won't be removed because then we'd have to do some modifications to the exterior of the building, but they will be disconnected and they will not be running. So we, what we're, like I said, we're gonna have post here and another one about where that tree is 25 feet high with down light directed down towards the parking lot. Speaker 8: That's that much better. Yeah. Speaker 13: Great. Thank Speaker 3: You Susan. Speaker 13: Any questions? Speaker 8: Let me just go around the, the board, Peter. No, no questions. Speaker 3: I, yeah, I first of all much improved.
Much, much, much improved. And I think it might have saved you guys some bucks too. I think along the way for, so the only in the detention basin, there's just a little bit of regrading, right? To put in the Speaker 13: Yes. Okay. To put in, yeah. To, to put in the 12 inch pipe trench. Speaker 3: Yep. So the capacity of that basin's fine, right? Correct. Okay. Speaker 13: Yes. Speaker 3: And then just from a constructability point of view, on the backside of the new parking area, you've got that swale that we talked about last time. You know, you're gonna have to get something in there
to excavate the wall and the footings and everything else, right? So Speaker 13: Yeah, there might be a little regrading of the swale, but we will not be removing it. It was, yeah, that's, Speaker 3: That's my concern is that, that any kind of construction going on in that back area, you know, take take care to restore that swale, keep it functional. 'cause it does, right. It does direct some storm water away from those neighbors, correct? Speaker 13: Yes. Okay. It does. Speaker 3: Alright. So again, pay, I think constructability on that side would be pretty sensitive, but I like the solution.
I think it's, I think it's, it's much better than what was proposed before. And particularly the lighting too. Speaker 1: Alan, Speaker 4: Just some questions really to deal with those 19 parking spaces just 'cause kind of some questions about dimensions. So those spaces are, how long now? Speaker 13: They're the town standard nine by 18, 16.8 Speaker 4: Or something like that? 18? No, Speaker 13: 18 nine by 18. Oh, they're 18. Speaker 4: Okay. Yes. So and then you have Cape Cod berm in front of it and then the wood guardrail. Speaker 13: Correct. And then, and then three feet to the, you know, to the wall face,
which we, where the fence would be. Speaker 4: Okay. And the, the cedar board fence is actually pretty much on the top of the wall. So there's about three feet or so in between the fence and, and vehicles there. Okay. Speaker 13: Correct. And it's the same seaboard fence that's enclosing that encloses the existing dumpster. Speaker 4: Okay. Speaker 9: That fence sits on the wall, correct? Speaker 13: Yes it does. Thank you. Speaker 4: So is that being used, I guess is that more for the, or I guess it could be used for multiple things. That's for, to prevent the, to block light and headlights,
but it's also kind of to keep people from walking over a wall, right? Speaker 13: Correct. Okay. Yes. Speaker 4: Okay, thanks. That's all I had for questions. Speaker 1: Thank you. I know we have some neighbors who are here virtually, so would welcome if Amanda, I dunno if there's anybody who needs to be elevated. Yep. Speaker 6: Mary Collins has their hand up and they just need to unmute. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 14: Yes. Thank you. The improvements
are gratefully appreciated. I just have one question and that is, I seem to recall that when a plan is approved that it can get reviewed again in a year. Is that true? The case, what I'm asking is if it turns out that poor David still has lights in his kitchen all night long, or it turns out that we do have problems with erosion and water runoff, is there a review of the changes?
I'm not expecting trouble, but I'd just like to know. Thank you. Yeah, Speaker 1: And thank you. And I, I would be happy assuming that everyone else is with building a one year review on lighting and drainage into the decision. Fine. Okay. And to be honest, even if there's nothing specific, if there's something that is causing a flagrant problem, we work to try to find a way of fixing it. Whether or not that's state stated in the decision, but I think to play it safe, we would do that if, if
that kind of works for you. Speaker 14: Yes. Thank you. Thank Speaker 1: You. Any other questions or comments? Alright, would we like to move forward with the decision? Who, who wants to make a motion? Speaker 5: I'll make a motion. Yeah. Regarding zero tech circle. Let's see. Previously approved a planning board site plan review, aquifer protection. Do we have to do anything with aquifer protection on this? Speaker 6: No, it was just more of noting that there was previously one, but, Speaker 5: Okay. So I'll make a motion to approve the site plan.
The most recent submitted, dated 4 10 25 second Speaker 1: And seconded by Mr. Nason discussion. Hearing none. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed? None. It's unanimous. And so that decision will carry with it a, a one year lighting and stormwater management review just in as a protection. So with that motion to close the public hearing. So Speaker 5: Moved Or Speaker 1: Do you want, you want to close it now?
We've got the plans as opposed to waiting until we've got something to Speaker 5: Sign. I think we're heading towards a time where we don't vote to sign a decision. Correct. We've approved it and then we sign the decision. Speaker 1: No, and my question isn't so much about voting to sign a decision, but just that everyone has a chance to review the updated decision. Speaker 5: Right. Well I could, you know, when Speaker 1: You, when you come in to sign it, you can, you can look, Speaker 5: Yeah, I, I guess, I mean sometimes we've left them open just for that purpose. Sometimes we've just closed them. So you Speaker 1: Know what let's, it won't hurt to keep it open, just
to make sure that every that everything we get is, Speaker 5: Is good. Okay. So move to continue to May seven second. Speaker 1: Okay. Motion to second. Seconded to continue to May 7th. All of those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Speaker 3: But we will have the, Speaker 1: But we'll have Speaker 3: Thell the decision to review before, well before that. Right? Okay. Yep. Speaker 1: Great. Alright. Thank you very much. Speaker 12: Thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate your time. Bye-bye. Speaker 1: And, and I appreciate the fact that we were able to solve the problem of the abutters in a way
that it didn't kind of work the first time. Speaker 12: Yeah. I think it definitely makes it a better situation now. Yeah. For everybody. Good, Speaker 1: Thanks. Speaker 12: So thank you for your input. Speaker 1: Thank you very much. So now we're onto planning board, business planning, board committee assignments and representation Natick, affordable housing trust fund. And I will say we, about probably five years ago, no member of the planning board wanted
to take on the role of the affordable housing trust. So what we ended up doing was getting with the okay of, of the select board, the ability to have someone who is not on the board that we a appoint to, to take this on our, the, the, I think second person to hold it ended up going to the finance committee. I don't think we were actually notified that, that she had left the, the post. So it has sat unfilled. I know Andy had someone who proposed to
put his name forward for, or their name forward for, for the post. I'm proposing that what we have is a period when this is open and we publicize that we are seeking someone to fill this. And then anyone who has chosen to put their name in and qualifications, we could interview and decide on the successful candidate. So, and Amanda, I'll work with you on, on kind of publicizing, posting any place where you want
to make sure things are seen. Speaker 5: I have kind of a differing opinion and that is that, first of all, I don't know this gentleman, I've just had a couple online conversations with him, but we haven't had a designee for years. And somebody came forward and said they'd be interested. I believe the gentleman's retired. He has the time, he has the energy and he has stepped forward, he's spoken to his family and he's ready to take on, you know, fill this gap we haven't had for a long time. I think the notion now that we have somebody who's interested of saying, Nope, we can't do that. We need to do a, like a town wide search or open it up. I, I know personally I just putting myself in this
gentleman's shoes, I'd feel kind of insulted like, you know, I'm trying to get involved with the town I've stepped forward. There's, there are no other applicants. And, and, and no, you, you can't do it. You, you now you have to wait for us to do, to get like other people that we can compare you against and maybe say no thank you to you. I, I think I would say like, it feels like the town is kind of, I I, you know, some people are a little skeptical of, of the sort of insiders. And this is kind of a case of I think kind of maybe discouraging somebody. I think what I would counter propose is we
appoint this person for a year or so and then after he serves a year, that's the time to see if there are other candidates who are interested. We probably would save ourselves months of time, I would think. And we would get this person involved and you know, if there's any kind of a problem, I guess, you know, we call it a year and then, then we can, you know, we can coincide our search with the next time we appoint somebody and maybe have two or three people to talk to. I just, I, I wouldn't wanna make, I would not have any interest in making the phone call
to this gentleman saying, thank you for applying, but now we're gonna see if we can find anybody better and pick the best person. I, that just freaks me out. What Speaker 1: I'll say is I've only been chair for the last few weeks. This is something that I had in my sights for wanting to do. We just had, had, I have not kind of come up for a breath and trying to sort out other things, but I don't think it's a reaction to someone turning up. But it's, it's a fact that, that we open it, that we open it up. I'm not anticipating a long drawn out process.
Speaker 5: Well I, I Speaker 1: Have Speaker 3: How long are the terms by the way? I I don't Speaker 1: Usually they're three years. I can check. Speaker 3: And this is an open slot, right? That we've Speaker 1: Yes, Speaker 3: I guess if sorry Speaker 1: To be. So they don't, we don't have a representative there now. And Speaker 3: Who, so I'm looking at Speaker 1: It now. The, the last one was Patty Ciara and when she went to the finance committee, that's when I think they might have forgotten to tell us that she had had Speaker 5: Left. It's probably been two years. Yeah, Speaker 1: Well we had Chris. Pardon? Chris Baron. Oh, that's right. She did step in for that. You're right. For about a year.
Yeah. While she was the associate. Speaker 3: So are we filling, what are we filling in vacant spot that has, Speaker 1: That is my Speaker 3: Understanding. Some time left on it or, I mean, because you, you suggested a year. Speaker 5: Well there's currently no designee to this, to this fund, to the trust. Yeah. I don't know. Can we, and I don't, I don't I have any idea what, what the gap is and whether there's a year left or six months left in the term. I, I don't, I don't, I mean, Speaker 1: I'll talk with the Salt Lake board office and find out where, where we are in the cycle of the rest
of the affordable housing trust fund and I can, that'd be good to know. I can let you guys know. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 9: Is there any particular experience, expertise I should say, that would have be helpful to have on the plant on this? Speaker 1: They currently have a banker, like Reg, reg Lease is on. There was usually someone on who's a realtor that, you know, they, they're, they're kind of different roles that, that they play aside from those who are presenting. So there's attorney. We're looking for someone who will represent planning board concerns. Speaker 5: I was our first representative on it, so I'll say no
Speaker 1: Brimming with it wasn't Speaker 5: Talented experts. No, I, no, I I mean I'm just literally just a regular guy that shows up and listens and pays attention. That's, that's if you had an affordable housing expert, I believe this gentleman's background is in real estate. I know he's interested in the issue. And Speaker 9: He called when you, he brought it up. Speaker 5: Well, yeah, we had a conversation on Facebook. He asked several questions about it and I said, you know, the planning board hasn't opened for a designee if you have the time and inclination. Like I said, I've never shaken hands with him. I've never been in face to face, but I appreciate that he wrote a letter
that he applied, he checked with his family. He's given it some serious considerations. Speaker 9: Sounds, sounds good to me. Well, I guess it's tough enough to get a person who's interested in Speaker 5: It would be so awkward, I think to drag in some other candidates and then like, not choose this person. I, Speaker 9: Well, aside from the awkward, I just think it's very positive that somebody is interested and, and you've, you as a former member have been able to explain a little bit about what it's about. Sounds to, sounds good Speaker 5: To me. I recall it's it a bit of on the job learning. 'cause I, you know, it it's changed a little bit.
They have more money than they used to. There, there, there are certainly some very active people running it. So it's, it's definitely more active than it used to be. But I, I think it, I it's like, it's like participating in most boards. There's, there's kind of on the job learning, I think. Well Speaker 1: I I think it's actually probably more active now because of five Auburn Street, because of, of, you know, see Speaker 9: What can this board Speaker 1: Do payments in lie at this Speaker 9: Moment about letting that, are we in a position to let this person know or do Speaker 1: You wanna go with I I am very happy to reach out to him
and explain what we're, what we're doing and why. I don't, I don't want him to feel neglect it or brush to one side. It's just a healthy process. It really is. Speaker 3: I'd like to meet 'em too. I mean, I think if, yeah, I mean that would be good. Speaker 1: Yeah. Have just to Speaker 5: Come in and Speaker 3: Talk to him. Come here if we're gonna appoint somebody. I mean to, you know, I think it really was the intention always to have a board member be part of it. Yes. Yeah. So if we're gonna designate it, I would, I think we should have someone appear. And for the public
benefit, I'd be in favor of that. All right. Speaker 5: It's April 14th. Let's see how long it takes. Speaker 8: Okay, Speaker 1: So anything else? Speaker 6: So for a person that is actually has their hand up in the audience. Wayne Gate. Speaker 5: That's him. That's the gentleman. Oh, that's him. Speaker 1: Sure. Go ahead. Speaker 5: That's the phone. Speaker 6: That's the phone. You Speaker 1: Just need to Hi. Hi Mr. Gates. If you'd like to join us, you can just unmute. I will have to say since, since I talked with you last, I had somebody else who expressed an interest in the position. So I, I think there might be more people out
there than you realize. That's a different story and he may be the best candidate anyway, but it's Speaker 8: A little different story. Speaker 1: What's that? That's a Speaker 8: Little different story from my Speaker 6: Point of view. Like I lowered their hand just so, but they're, Speaker 5: It's still muted. Mr. Gates, can you unmute? Do you wanna join us? Going once, going twice maybe. Oh, hand up again. Okay. Speaker 1: Can Speaker 5: You unmute Speaker 1: Mr. Gates if you're, if you're speaking we can't hear you. Speaker 5: Click on that mute button. You are definitely muted. We cannot hear you. Speaker 6: Their hand went down on I didn't do it. Speaker 1: It it did, it did go down. Speaker 6: Yeah. And I didn't do it.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Speaker 5: Back up again. Speaker 8: Okay. Speaker 1: And I'm glad you, you can see better than I can. Well Speaker 5: I see the yellow hand. Speaker 6: Yes. Behind you too. Speaker 1: Okay, so Mr. Gates can, could you unmute? Speaker 6: Would you like me to promote them to a panelist and see if that helps? Can try. Speaker 1: Why don't you do that? Thank you. Okay, Speaker 6: So they now have to just accept motion rejoining us a panelist. Speaker 1: Okay, great. Thank you. Hi, Mr. Gates. Speaker 5: Unmute yourself please. Speaker 1: Mr. Gates, can you are, are you, can you unmute? Unmute yourself. It's the only way we're gonna be able
to connect with you. If not, our next meeting is going to be on May 7th and I'll, I'll, I hope to have at least an update as to what we're doing for filling this position. Oh. Oh, there we go. I see you. Great. You know, you're, you're, you're muted. Speaker 5: We just, we can see you but we Speaker 1: Can't hear you. We can't hear you. I can see. Yeah, we can see you. We can't hear you. Speaker 5: Click that microphone button. Can't hear you. Speaker 1: I still, we still you have to unmute. Speaker 5: Click that microphone button. It looks like this.
Speaker 1: Okay. We, we I'm sorry we, we still cannot hear you. We will, we're we're not gonna be deciding anything this evening. So what I'd say is keep posted, we will find you and we'll make sure that we have a chance for you to come before us and meet with us. We just want, we think fair's fair. Put it out there, see if there's kind of anyone else who's interested so that nobody tells us we only heard one person and that was it. So I, I appreciate your patience. You're very welcome. Speaker 5: We got the thumbs up. Thank you. Thank you. Read that.
Speaker 1: I understand that feeling. So Speaker 5: Technology. Speaker 1: Any other items of business? Speaker 6: I think the only thing is, is that we should just note that yesterday we did have a community preservation committee plan. So they were in agreeance on a plan. So now we are putting in the graphics because as you know with Word, they like to jump around and finalize the appendix. I believe the expectation is to open up the letter of interest for May 1st to start reviewing projects or letter of interest is not for reviewing projects.
It's providing guidance which would then turn into a CPA application review, which would then take a project to town meeting if successful in the evaluation base. The expectations are is to take eligible projects that have been deemed eligible by the CPC to the fall town meeting on an abbreviated schedule. And then the fall of 2026 would be the traditional longer schedule. This is gonna be a very short schedule just because where we are Speaker 5: And what kinds of applicant Speaker 3: Applications do you expect this time? Speaker 6: So I'm not a hundred
percent sure what kind of applications. We would probably expect more smaller projects just because of the very short timeline or projects that are shovel ready. Because if they're already ready to go from the LOI process, it'll be a very quick turnaround compared. Speaker 3: But like what example? Speaker 6: So open space, if you had parking Speaker 3: Improvements, things like Speaker 6: That. Okay. Like if you were gonna do like say you were gonna construct an entire trail network and you were acquiring the land. You already had the agreements all in place, you had all of the plans all laid out, all you needed to do was just meet with the LOI just to check the box.
That's gonna be a lot quicker of a project rather than a project where I have a great idea. I don't even know where to start. I don't have plans or financing or anything that's gonna take a little bit longer. Got Speaker 3: It. Cool. Yeah. Speaker 1: Alright. Thank you. Thank you very much. If any of you are interested in seeing the plan, it's 40, 40 pages and change. We can, we can get a copy circulate. Yeah. So as soon as, as soon as it's posted, that'd great. We'll get that out and around. Speaker 6: Yeah, it's really 30. Speaker 3: Is it posted anywhere or you Speaker 1: Not yet. Okay. We wanna wait and get the Speaker 6: Drafts have been posted?
Yes. Okay. Yes, yes. But the final one with the graphics has not, it's about 30 pages and then the appendix made get about 40. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 1: So, and I'll I'll note we, when we were talking about it last night at our meeting, the CPC meeting, we understand that, that at the end of the first year, odds are good that we will update, revise, and make some slight changes to the plan just because we'll have discovered what works and what doesn't. So, so I'm not treating it as cast in stone, but as certainly in a good position to, to launch year one.
Speaker 3: Good work. Speaker 1: Awesome. Alright, so I think that's, Speaker 3: Our meeting begins Speaker 1: April 22nd, but that is only to convene. It will then adjourn until two April 29th at Kennedy Middle School. Speaker 9: Okay. Speaker 3: Oh. Speaker 1: So with that done and I will let you all know about the terms, what I learned about the terms for the affordable housing trust. I will entertain or I'll entertain a motion. Mr. Sson, Speaker 9: Motion to adjourn. Second some Speaker 1: And second. All of those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Thank you.
We stand adjourned.