Speaker 1: Okay. Welcome everybody. 7 0 2, starting of the planning board. Echoing. There you go. Thank you. Are you on? Speaker 2: No, Speaker 1: No. We good? Okay. Testing no echo. Okay, great. All right. Thank you everybody for coming out tonight. First item on the agenda is our public speak. So any individual who may raise an issue that is not included on the agenda, and it will be taken under advisement by the board, there will be no opportunity for debate during this portion of the meeting. The section of the agenda is limited to 15 minutes
and any individual addressing the board during this section of the agenda shall be limited to five minutes for comments. So anybody wishing to have the floor for public speak? Mr. Myers? Speaker 3: I I might have something. This is an item for the board under the topic of consideration. We have heard from a developer of the last hoop project that we did over on Willow Street and they, they were basically approaching the town wondering whether instead of providing affordable units
that there might be some other way, like a fee in lieu of which the hoop zoning does not allow. So I'm not advocating that, but what I'm, what I'm curious about is whether this might be something of a canary in the coal mine, kind of a situation where our wonderful beloved hoop zoning, which has been probably in existence for about 18, 20 years or so, and which I think is a, is a successful bylaw just due to the fact that so many projects had been developed in it, in it didn't anticipate a time when the difference between a market rate unit
and affordable unit would grow to the point that it has. And it appears that we might be at the stage where that delta might be causing a potential disincentive to develop under it. So there's really nothing to do about the current, the current, we can't, there, there's no instrumentation for the current approval. But I'm just wondering if going forward when we talk about like our, our relatively new inclusionary zoning by law, I don't believe it covers hoop. So there is, there is no methodology for a fee in lieu as, as these hoops come forward. And I witnessed how much the Affordable Housing Trust
appreciated the, the donation that came from the Windermere project and it was spent almost before they got it. And in a case like this one, you know, I, I think we'd rather have units. I, there's no question about that. But if we're not gonna see development, and then the next best thing is to see a project where there is the potential for a fee in lieu of which, you know, again, it's not, it's not the same as units, but I think it, I think it could be useful. And frankly when we, when we did the, we just didn't foresee economic conditions being the way they are. So in, so instead of sort of like,
I mean there really is, like I said, no way to proceed with, with, with, with this. But I think going forward, it, it might be an indication of something that we should think about. Whether, whether we revise it or, or, or, you know, potentially make that as a possibility. 'cause I, I'd sort of hate to say no to the creation of units and no to a potential donation when it, it might be the best we're gonna get. And, and I, and I can't predict the future, but I thought I'd raise it as something to think about as a, as a, as a potential discussion. Thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you. Respecting
that it's not a debate on any of that stuff. Yes. I think that's a good issue to put on the table for future agenda item perhaps when we're thinking about our zoning agenda for the rest of the year. So appreciate that. Excuse me. Any other folks wanna speak? Any other topic? Speaker 4: No hands on Speaker 1: Line. Okay. No hands line. Okay, great. Okay. To planning board business then we have on the agenda here, two approval not required plans. One for one HF Brown way and one for 19 Wind mirror lane. What are the, what's the status of those?
Speaker 5: So the status on one HR Brown, one hf, brown, HF Brown Way, you do have a updated plan of land in your packets. And so that project is actually ready to move forward. What they are intending to do is just basically Z out what was used to be an access or potential access to the larger one HF Brown. And they would be somehow transferring that to House slot number 80, which is located on Kendall Lane. So this project was previously voted down just
because the plan of land was not ready. Yeah. We've gone through many revisions and so now it is ready to be endorsed. Speaker 4: Which, sorry, which file are we talking about in our Yep, this is Speaker 3: The A r. Okay. New plan for our Speaker 1: Five six. Yes. Okay. Yeah, so right to recap, right? So it's not a project, it's an approval, not required plan that we had comments on. Excuse me. And I think that we had indicated, you know, we're ready to sign it. There was just a lot of drafting issues with it and math issues with it. So I see at least some of the comments I raised,
addressed on this plan. And if you can assure me that, you know, this is, those errors have, have been cleaned up and revisions made, I think that's a good thing. So Amanda, Speaker 6: Do we have, do we have the, what we have now is the updated Speaker 5: Yeah, it should be in the new, the file that says New plan for five six. And the big thing is for this one, although it's rotated and I can't get it to rotate properly, is that you'll see all of the numbers are correct, but the other big thing was is if I'm trying
to share it on the screen is if you are looking at House Lot 80, the line is actually Zed out. So this what would kind of look like an L shape would be going towards house number eight. Yes. Kendall Lane. And previously that was part of one HF Brown Way as an access point onto Kendall Lane. Yep. So, okay. And all the other items have been itself. Speaker 1: Yeah. Got it. You know, it's a little bit of a stickler for, you know, graphically representing what's supposed to be represented here.
So I, this is a much improved plan in my opinion. So any comments from the board or are Speaker 6: We in a position of endorsement with what we now have? I, I think that was the only thing that held us up. Speaker 1: I think so. So does pray for a motion that would take it? I Speaker 6: I would move that we endorse of the plan of land as modified. Okay. Mic, your mic is not on. Oh Speaker 1: There you Speaker 6: Go. Okay. Thank you. Sorry. Speaker 5: Once Speaker 1: Again we Speaker 6: Moved to e endorse the plan, the a
and r plan of land as revised and presented this evening. Speaker 1: So moved to endorse by Ms. Evans. Is there a second? I'll second it. Mr. Er second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. Approved. Thank you. Speaker 3: Oh Doug, I'm just curious. Yes, if, if we are gonna be continuing 2 73 West Central, do you wanna let people know Speaker 1: We will be continuing? Yes. I don't know if anybody here is anybody here for two 70 West Central? Speaker 5: 2 73. Speaker 1: I'm sorry. 2 73.
Okay, we'll keep rolling. 19 wind Deme Lane approval not required Plan. Yeah, that is also in our packet. Speaker 5: So 19 Windermere Lane is now the third adjustment on what was Windermere Lane, which was adopted as a definitive subdivision then brought forward to the board board to have a reduction in lot frontage lot area under a special permit, which is actually how they do do the affordable via loose. And so what they are doing is trying to shift the lot lines
underneath this new plan of land. As you will see for lots. I think it's, this is trying to open up Speaker 1: 18. Speaker 5: Yep. And it's the plan that's called Reise plan. Yes. So it's lot 17, lot 18 and lot 19 or 17 8, 19 and 21 wind amere. Speaker 1: So they're sort of stealing from one and giving to the other along both edges? Speaker 5: That is correct, yes. Yeah. Speaker 1: Okay. So I don't know if the rest of the board has had a chance to look at this. I, again, I had a little, few questions. I think there's a letter from Mr.
Kak, is that his name? The attorney? Speaker 5: Yes. Yeah, Speaker 1: Beck. Yes. Thank you. There was a question that I had and this just out of sheer curiosity 'cause I wasn't here when Wendy Merri Lane was approved as a, as a plan. I wasn't clear on how Windermere Lane was actually established as a way, and now I am clear on that there was a subdivision, a a definitive subdivision. But my lingering question and maybe others on the board can help here. So in terms of frontage for the lots right. Required frontage, this is in an RSB district?
Correct. And this, but it came under the, the open space or the previous, previous open space bylaws. So what, what frontage governs the lots on this way? Is it underlying zoning? Is it something else that Speaker 5: I believe it would be the under or not the underlying zoning because they came in for the cluster subdivision which allowed for the decrease in lot frontage and lot area, which brought it down to a lot frontage of 91 feet and a lot area minimum of 26,000 square feet. Okay. Okay. I don't know why that one's blurry,
but that one appears to be clear. Speaker 1: I can see it, yeah. Okay. Okay. So, so sort of the approved frontage is 91 feet Okay. Per lot. Got it. And that's what they're trying to achieve on this plan for line 18 from from Yeah. Yeah, from one night. Okay. Understood. Okay. Any discussion questions from the board Speaker 6: Move to endorse the plan as presented this Speaker 1: Evening? Okay, we have a motion for Ms. Evans to endorse approve endorsement of the a and r plan for 19 Windermere Lane. I'll second Seconded by Mr. Myers.
All those in favor please say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Great. Thank you. And are those here for signing tonight? Speaker 5: No, I don't have, I don't like to have 'em sign or have the mylars in case there are amendments and both of these had amendments up to today, so. Okay. Speaker 1: Okay, great. Okay, moving right along. Next item on the agenda is the acceptance of a covenant. Our performance covenant performance bond covenant for the definitive subdivision for 43 Cyprus Road. And we have that in our packet as well. Is there any,
Speaker 5: So the history behind this one is it was approved by the planning board under a conventional subdivision. So what they are doing right now is requesting a covenant be placed on all of the lots so that they can construct the roadway, install the infrastructure, and then when they want the lots released, they will switch that out for a letter assurity if needed. And that would be determined by the department or DPW. But as of right now, they are just putting the lots in as basically their surety. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 5: And that's the document that's in it was reviewed by counsel. And then we do have the Myer plans for that
because they do need to record, since this is a definitive subdivision, they do need to record the approved subdivision plan. Okay, Speaker 1: Great. And this is a standard form of covenant that we have. Speaker 5: So we had to create a new one 'cause we didn't really have one, but that's why counsel has reviewed it. Okay. Speaker 1: Okay. And approved it. And Speaker 5: Approved. Yes. Sorry. Speaker 1: Yes. Okay. So it's a pretty ministerial Yes. Thing. Before us here. Any questions from the board on the covenant? This is just the, for the public, this is just the kind
of a next step in moving the project forward for the applicant, for the owner putting something in place that guarantees the roadway gets done before building permits are issued for the locks on the, on the, on the way. So. Speaker 5: And if you do need the applicant, they are here. Oh, okay. And available, but they just haven't accepted the promotion. Speaker 1: Is there any discussion of the covenant Speaker 5: That there is yet? Speaker 1: I mean, if they wanna say something, I wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah. Any, any discussion from the board?
Any, anything that the applicant wants to add? All right. Seeing none any motion. Speaker 6: So this is approval of the covenant of acceptance. Of the Speaker 5: Covenant. Acceptance of the covenant. Speaker 6: Then I So move Speaker 1: Second, move by Ms. Evans and second by Mr. Meyer to accept the covenant for the 43 cypress definitive subdivision plan. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Sorry someone someone's chiming in. All those opposed None. Okay, thank you. Do Speaker 3: We sign the paper as well as the Mylar? Speaker 5: So the real big focus is getting the Mylar signed except
for you cannot sign, you'll see a pink sticky that you can't sign the one with the pink sticky over it. Okay. Because that was not as part of the approved subdivision or in the decision. Speaker 3: So I'll just sign the mailer without the pink sticking. Speaker 5: Okay, thank you. Okay. Speaker 1: Okay, next part of the agenda is development and reviews, public hearings. So 2 73 West Central Street. We had heard, first heard this project two meetings ago, open the public hearing, I think two meetings ago. Is that correct? Speaker 5: We, the opening public meeting was on March 25th
and it's now being continued to tonight. But the applicant did request for the purposes of getting everything ready continuance to June 3rd. Speaker 1: Yes, I see that in the, in the packet here. So there's a request to continue the public hearing for 2 73 West Central Street to the June 3rd meeting. I'm happy to make that a motion. Okay. Ms. Evans makes that as a motion and second, but Mr. Nason, all those in favor of continuing the hearing to June 3rd, say aye please. Speaker 3: Aye. Aye. A Speaker 1: All those opposed, okay, so June 3rd.
Speaker 3: Excuse me Amanda, can I ask you one more question? Yeah. This block says amend planning board. Is that a problem? Speaker 5: Where does it say Speaker 3: That? Page C dash three oh says Mendon Planning Board. I'm thinking maybe the others do say ick, but I haven't gone through all of 'em. Speaker 5: Okay. We might not wanna sign them. I've gone through the sheets but I had not gone through, they just got dropped off today. Speaker 3: Just a quick, Speaker 1: Are you, do you have a geography question, Andy? Speaker 3: No, I don't think I have the ability to sign in Mendon, but, oh, here's another one. There's a few of them in here. Okay, so
Speaker 5: Let's not sign it. The only one that's important to sign tonight is the one for the North Main Street project, which is the one sheeter. Yep. Speaker 3: Okay. Speaker 5: And then we'll get the other ones revised. Speaker 3: Assuming that one says Natick. Well we can try to take over. Speaker 1: Thank you for catching that. Thank you. Okay, next on the agenda, we have the continued public hearing for 6 25 Worcester Street. This is the application for a special permit for a car wash at 6 25 Worcester Street. So the team wants to come up and take, take the podium
here, we will proceed. Before we do proceed though, I wanna take a moment to clarify some expectations for the conduct of of this hearing. This is a quasi judicial proceeding and the board expects all advocacy to adhere to the Massachusetts Rules of professional Conduct. That includes rule 3.1, which requires that any assertion made whether factual or legal have a good faith basis in the record or an applicable law. It also includes rule 4.4, which requires
that advocacy be directed at advancing a legitimate position and not used as a means to embarrass burden or pressure. Others involved in this proceeding allegations regarding the conduct or impartiality of board members is a serious thing. They go directly to the integrity of this process and they should be raised only when grounded in specific facts and presented in a professional manner. This board is here to evaluate the application based on the record and the applicable standards
and that's how we will proceed tonight. So yes, Ms. Loomis, Speaker 5: The only thing is Mr. SSON was not here at the last meeting, but he did file the Mullin rule with the town clerk on April 7th, which then renders him eligible. Got it to be voting. So that just has to be announced so he can be brought in. So you have five members. Okay, Speaker 1: So announced. Thank you Peter. Yep. So again, we heard this first public hearing in Help Me March, or sorry February. Speaker 5: That was February 25th was the opening. The second continued public hearing was on March 25th and then it was continued to tonight. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Okay, and since then we've gotten updated information in the record here. A few things that I'll list out. We have an April 21st stormwater calculations and maintenance plan that was submitted from CEG. We have an April 26th letter from Blackman, Browski Ery and Silverstein, the Council for the project, kind of giving a summary of what's before us, same date, same attorney kind of listing out zoning issues. There was also a list of proposed conditions which I would assume was presented by the applicant.
The proposed conditions there was a, there was a list in there. We had a noise impact analysis which was prepared by LSA dated April 26th, 2026, a transportation impact assessment from Vanessa Associates from April 22nd. We also received a letter from resident Mr. Ching dated May 4th. So those are the items that I think are on the agenda. We certainly had lots of public comment, verbal and written. So I think what I'd like to do with this application at this point, given
that there's been information submitted to us, I've had a chance to review it. Hopefully some of you have already taken a look, give the applicant an opportunity to present that information. We'll take board board questions first on on that and then we'll, I'll ask for new public comments. I know there's been a lot of comment, there's been a lot of testimony here over the past couple of meetings. We've heard you, if you're gonna take the mic this evening, I really implore you, let's make it new information or something that hasn't been raised previously so that we can all make this an efficient
use of everybody's time. So I, I really ask that that be the case if you're gonna take the mic this evening and then, you know, we'll just, we'll proceed from there. If we think that we've heard enough we can close the hearing or, or continue it, whatever we want to do and that's how we'll we'll proceed Amanda, something Speaker 5: Else. So also in your packet tonight there is the presentation from Vanessa associate, just so you have the slide so you can see it. Okay on your, and that was also uploaded into open gov. I did have conversations with DPW. They were not able to get a review for the traffic study completed prior to tonight. So they will get that over to you. The same
thing with the Board of Health. They were reviewing the TRA or the sound study as well. Speaker 1: So, okay. Alright, thank you. So I'll turn it over to the applicant. What to proceed. Speaker 4: Members of the board, Jonathan Silverstein for the applicant. As has been indicated, I sent a letter summarizing everything that had been submitted. I made it very clear for instance, that the list of condition proposed conditions was submitted by the applicant. Hopefully some of the board members have had an opportunity to read my letter and the proposed conditions again, which makes it very clear that was submitted by us as
a proposal to confirm that there will not be any adverse impacts from this project. We've submitted a full transportation impact assessment. Mr. Dirk who performed it will walk the board through that momentarily. His conclusion, and I don't wanna bury the lead, is that there won't be any significant adverse impact from this project. Notwithstanding that we incorporated a number of plan changes in the revised plan set that's been submitted, including signage
prohibiting any perspective customers from stacking on route nine and alteration to the stacking lane to remove pinch points that had been raised as a potential point of concern, we've clarified the stacking capacity of the the project site. We've proposed conditions requiring police details when appropriate as well as required staffing and a condition that
if anyone were to be observed waiting to get onto the property on route nine, they would be immediately told to leave. Again, we don't anticipate that is going to happen and it's not supported by the traffic study. But an abundance of caution. We have proposed additional sound mitigation measures. We, we've specked a much quieter blower in the facility. We've added additional sound barriers. We've moved the sound barrier
a bit south away from the northern property line. This will ensure that the existing trees along the property line that some neighbors raised concerns about will not be impacted. We also proposed a condition that we retain a certified arborist during construction to ensure that the root systems of those trees are protected. We've also added additional sound mitigation at the entrance and exit of the car wash itself to the north to provide additional sound mitigation.
We've proposed signage. The sound study demonstrates that there will be an improvement at the northern property line over existing conditions because of all of these mitigation measures. In other words, they will tho the owners of those properties will realize a benefit in reduction of sound that currently they experience because they live one lot away from route nine. So they're gonna actually see a reduction in sound
at their property lines. We proposed additional landscaping. We, we have produced additional signage prohibiting loud radio or or speakers in the cars at the request of your planner, we've agreed to prohibit radios altogether. We've produced a full stormwater report demonstrating that there will be a substantial reduction in
stormwater runoff. Right now the entire site is paved. There's gonna be a significant reduction in impervious area and a significant addition of pretreatment that will not only reduce the amount of runoff but improve the quality of the runoff that there will continue to be. We've increased the buffer, it's now 55 feet of a green buffer. We're showing use of
grass creed pavers for the fire lane instead of traditional by two minutes asphalt pavement. So it will have the appearance of a lawn, but we'll structurally support the fire app apparatus of the fire department in the extremely unlikely event that access to that fire lane is needed. The proper, the project will result in a significant increase in green space and reduction in impervious area. We have added flexible
pavement traffic delineators along the, the line of the fire lane so that if anyone were inclined to drive on the fire lane for some reason they won't be able to do that. I think that is the high level summary of the documents submitted except that I did as requested by the board, submit a legal analysis as to why the fire lane can permissibly be located in the
residentially zoned portion of the site. Because it is not part of the use, It will not be regularly accessed. Chances are it will never be accessed. But if it is, it will certainly not be a regular part of the use of the property and therefore it is not subject to the access as usual. But I have reiterated that if a board has an issue with the fire lane, we're happy to eliminate the fire lane. We added it to the plan at the request of the fire department.
We're happy to do so. We don't think it is a problem for any reason, but if the board does, we're happy to eliminate it. And although I, I don't think it's necessary, I don't wanna put Mr. Dirk on the spot. I don't think there's any valid basis to suggest that a property that has 40 feet of paved travel width on both sides of the building requires a fire lane around the back. But again, we're happy to include it, we're happy
to remove it as the board chooses. So that is the summary with the board's permission. I would ask Mr. Dirk to be given the opportunity to present his findings and then we can hear from the TRA sound consultant on that issue. Speaker 1: Great. Sounds great. Amanda, do we have the presentation we can put up there? Yeah, it just takes a second. Okay, Speaker 7: So that's loading up. I'll just introduce myself. For those of you that do not know me, my name is Jeffrey Dirk, I'm a managing partner
with Vanessa Associates and with the transportation consultants for the project. So as you heard in terms of what you have in your file, we did prepare a transportation impact assessment for this project. We very much appreciate the comments that we received. Microphone, Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry. Speaker 7: Yeah, Speaker 1: Is the Speaker 7: Green light? Thank you. Is that better? Okay, great. Thank you. Speaker 1: We can hear you but yeah, Speaker 7: Yeah, no. So again, just I'll by way of introduction, my name is Jeffrey Dark. I'm the managing partner with Vanessa and Associates and we're the transportation consultants for the project. As I was mentioning, we do appreciate the comments
that we did receive from the planning board as well as from the audience. You know, constructive as we're looking at the transportation assessment, the board did provide feedback to us as to intersections that were of importance for the board as you consider the application for us to look at. We also heard very clearly from the neighborhood concerns about use of the neighborhood street system to access the project site. So as we undertook our analysis, we did take all of those things into consideration and I think to the chair's point at the outset of the hearing, you know, we were constructive in our analysis
but we also expect to have constructive feedback as it relates to that. And again, certainly we as professionals, we take an objective look at these projects every analysis that we do, but we obviously don't live in the neighborhood. And so experiencing what happens on a day-to-day basis, we try to estimate that as a part of our assessment and collecting data. But obviously those that live in the neighborhood experience that daily. So I'm sure there'll be some questions about the way we've undertaken the analysis, but we did try to account for what some impacts of the project may be in the neighborhood. So next slide Amanda and,
and thank you for advancing at the beginning. So just by way of a high level summary of the transportation analysis, for those of you that are not familiar with the way that these studies are undertaken, they're done in consultation with the town as well as in this case the department of Transportation because we are on Route nine, which is a state highway under mass DOT guideline or jurisdiction. So MAs, DOT has guidelines that we need to follow in conducting our analysis. I've stamped the traffic study as a professional engineer to certify it was done in accordance with the accepted standards of the practice in conducting the analysis.
As I talked about the type of study, it's a transportation assessment so we're looking at pedestrians and bicycles as well as motor vehicles. We're looking at how they interact with the project, the roadway, but also importantly safety as it relates to those other modes of transportation. It's a car wash vehicle centric, but there are pedestrians using the sidewalk going along the front of the site. So we're cognizant of that as well. And of course we have the residential neighborhood behind us. So we're looking at those other modes as they may interact with the traffic from the project, as our attorney had mentioned is with overall finding of the traffic analysis, we did not find that the addition
of the traffic from this project result in any significant impacts. And as we're talking about those impacts, what we're talking about is increases in motorist delays and then residual vehicle queuing that results from some of the delays at the intersections. I'm very cautious when I make that statement because that doesn't mean it's free flowing traffic. Traffic backs up on route nine and if you're trying to get out of some of those residential neighborhoods, fortunately it's right in right out. But you, you're delayed. You're delayed by the volume of traffic, you're delayed by the speed of traffic on route nine. Our analysis does reflect that. But what we're talking about in terms of impacts is
if there are delays today and there's backups that happen, how much does that delay increase? And then in locations where we're over capacity where you really can't increase traffic without increasing added delay or queuing, we look at the increase in queuing at those locations. So it gives us two parameters to look at. So as it relates to the projects impacts, we've quantified them probably most appropriately is that at any of the intersections that we looked at, the increase in vehicle queuing did not go up by any more than two vehicles over the course of an hour. And where those measurements actually happened was the,
call it eastbound to westbound U-turn traffic signal at the McDonald's. So to the east of where the project site is, as you know, you're very familiar with this site, the dynamic of having the median down the center of route nine means that if you are coming in one direction and you want to go in the other direction, you're either going to route 27 or you're using the U-turn traffic signal. And so that's why the board was appropriately asked that we include that U-turn traffic signal so that we could look at what those impacts. That's where the increase in queuing happened was actually down at that intersection. And as I mentioned kind of the last bullet point here is
that that left turn movement down at the U-turn maneuver during the evening peak hour, that's when we found that it's operating over capacity. The volume of traffic on route nine heading in the westbound direction during the evening peak hour is about double what's there in the morning. So you've got almost 3000 vehicles going in that one direction. So as that, as you're trying to wait at that traffic, so you know to make the U-turn this added delay, that same dynamic happens on both of the side streets on either side of the project site because that heavy volume in the evening, it's difficult to get out and make a right hand turn.
So we did show that as a part of our analysis. Next slide, Amanda, Looking at the project site driveways, I think similar to the roadways on either side of the project site as we looked at the morning time period and a Saturday midday, which is our critical analysis periods, there is capacity on the roadway. So we didn't have a lot of delays as it relates to vehicles exiting the site in the evening. There are delays and those delays are similar to what we had seen on either side of the project site at the inter, at the residential streets that come out to route nine.
So we were showing that the driveway will operate at capacity during that time period. What's important is can we store the queue that happens as the vehicles are waiting to get out of the property? And what we had shown in our analysis is that there are delays, the residual vehicle queue is about two vehicles. And so the way the circulation works in the site, which is basically it's two way along the front of the property, we have a one way entrance on the east side, a one way exit on the west side. You can store those two vehicles in queue within the site without impeding the ability to circulate within the project site.
So that's important as we're looking at kind of how those delays relate to onsite circulation. The other parameters, there's two parameters I'll mention that we look at in terms of safety. The first is motor vehicle crash history. So we look at the crash history at the intersections we evaluated and I'll speak about those intersections in a moment. And we look at two types of crash histories. The first is the number of crashes are happening. So just purely looking at number of crashes in relation to the volume of traffic on the roadway and that results in a crash rate and we compare calculated crash rates to state published data.
And if we're above those crash rates, then that means we wanna focus in on those locations and determine if there's a contributing factor that might be able to be addressed. The other parameter is severity of crashes and the severity of crashes is looked at through the state's high crash location database. So that's not just looking at how many crashes happening, but it's looking at what are the severity of those crashes. As we look at both of those parameters, there's no high crash locations based on the rate of crashes that are happening and there's no high crash defined
locations based on the severity of crashes. So we're at least starting with a roadway network in the vicinity of the site where we don't have any safety deficiencies. The other parameters, site lines at the driveways. So we look at lines of sight both approaching the driveways along route nine. So if you have no interest in this project and you're driving by the site, we wanna make sure that if a vehicle in the worst case pulled out and stalled right in the middle of route nine, that you can see that vehicle if you're approaching it and stop in time without striking the vehicle. The second perimeter is if you're exiting the site and you're looking, in this case you
can only make a right hand turn. So you're looking to the east that you can see a vehicle that's approaching you at a specific speed and pull out of the property. And in this case, because we're on route nine, we want you to not only pull out of the property but be able to accelerate up to speed so that if we have a free flow condition, if someone pulls out, you don't need to slow down if you're going by the project site. So we looked at both of those parameters. The posted speed is 50 miles an hour in this area. We assess the site lines based on 55 miles an hour. So five miles above the posted speed limit. You need to see a minimum distance of 490 feet
to have safe operation based on 55 miles an hour. On the minimum sight line we have is 645 feet. So just to kind of put that in terms of speed, that's a distance that is required for 65 miles an hour. So if a vehicle was going 65 miles an hour and approaching the project site, you still have safe lines of sight. So those are the two safety parameters. The very last thing is looking at the queuing capacity within the site. And so some of the board members that are familiar with queuing analysis, as we look at projects such as this or any type of drive through operation,
it's really dependent on the service time. So how long does it take for a vehicle to get from the entrance point of the car wash to the exit point And that defines the capacity. 'cause you can only wash so many cars over the course of an hour. The number of cars that can be washed is dependent upon the service flow rate. So if it's two minutes or three minutes per vehicle, you could look and say if it's three minutes per vehicle over a 60 minute period you can only wash 20 vehicles. And then if you look at two bays in there, that means that the total processing through the car wash would be 40 vehicles. So we can look at that processing capacity and then we'll look at the trip
generation calculations in a minute. And if you say at three minutes we can process 40 vehicles in total with two bays. If we go to two minutes, it goes to 60 vehicles in total we can see okay, if I have a certain number of vehicles arriving and I can process so many through the car wash during that one hour period, then whatever I can't process is in queue. So then we look at can we store the queue that's that residual queuing that doesn't get processed within the project site. So we've done that analysis based on a three minute service time, which I think is a high site average.
We looked at different averages through a Google search and three minutes seems to be an average in terms of three minutes per vehicle between when you pull in and then how long does it take you before you get out the other side. And so in doing three minutes per average, it gets us to 40 vehicles in capacity. I think we'll show in a minute that we had total of 82 vehicles arriving on the Saturday. So if we can process 40 vehicles over the course of an hour, that means we have 42 vehicles that we need to stack or store within the project site. And so we've demonstrated our analysis that
between the entrance of the car wash and the back of the Q lane where you enter it, I should say you can have 32 vehicles in that. So if you have 32 vehicles between the entrance of the car wash to the back of the lane, then we have four vehicles in each of the tunnels. So that's eight vehicles in total that gives us 40 vehicles in total. And then at the exit there's another four vehicles. So what we've shown is without even considering the fact that we can still put more vehicles in the front of the site, that we have storage really between internal to the wash bays in the dry, in the lanes leading up
to the car wash and then exiting the car wash of 44 vehicles. So that gives us a total processing capacity or storage within the site that we can deal with over the course of an hour of somewhere closer to 86 vehicles or so, we'd be able to deal with 'em. We only have 82 maximum. So there's some flexibility in that. The actual service times I think that the operator will tell you is somewhere closer between three two to three minutes per vehicle. If we go to two minutes we can process much more vehicles. So I think we've done some analysis that show that the Q storage within the project site and even on a conservative basis is sufficient.
But I think as you heard with some potential conditions that were discussed, we're also trying to kind of bootstrap that with having some conditions that say even though we think we've got enough capacity, we're willing to accept some conditions that would further limit the ability of the site to accommodate anything more than we can physically store within the DR within the lanes that lead up to the car wash. So we think we've tried to both demonstrate through our analysis is enough storage within the site, but also then back that up with some conditions that hopefully will provide some comfort to the board. I will move a little bit quicker as we go through this.
So the next things are just some slides and some figures from the transportation analysis. So the first slide just shows the context of the project site on route nine. So we're obviously on the westbound side picking up Wheeler Lane and Weathersfield Road on either side of the project site just for context. And those are intersections that we included in our study. Next slide Amanda. So this slide looks into a little bit more detail of the study area that we evaluated. So as I mentioned, we looked at the residential streets on either side of the site, Weathersfield road, Wheeler Lane,
and then to the east we looked at that U-turn, eastbound westbound U-turn. So those were the intersections that we studied as, as well as the project site driveways. We did undertake data collection in March and April of this year. The specific time periods that we focused on were the morning commuter hour, so seven to nine in the morning. And we also looked in the evening when we have that heavy westbound flow, which is four to six in the evening. We collected data. We also looked at a Saturday time period from 11 to two, which you'll see in the trip generation calculations is that the Saturday midday traffic volumes
for a car wash are higher than what are experienced on the weekday because people have more time to go get their car washed. Or in the case of a carwash, you may be doing it as you're out running errands. So that's a a kind of a function of the car wash as well, that it does relate to traffic going by the project site that would draw some of the traffic stream where you're already on the roadway for doing other types of shopping purposes or going to or from work or whatever it happens to be in the car, washes in the right direction for your travel. And so you may decide to get your car washed in conjunction with that trip. So that would be some portion of the trips
that may be associated with the car wash as well. Conditions or traffic volume conditions during the months of April and March are what are considered above average conditions. And so the state does require, we look at average conditions. So the fact that we're above average, we don't adjust numbers, we never adjust numbers downward. So we didn't make any adjustments. They're about two to 4% above average. So we just kept those volumes exactly the way that they are. Just by way of some statistics 'cause we, 'cause we're gonna look at the trip generation for the project in a moment. So just some numbers to keep in the back of your mind as we talk about the volumes associated with the project.
So this section of Route nine where the project site is located, it accommodates about 12,000 vehicles per day in the westbound direction only on a weekday on a Saturday. The number goes down slightly to 10,500 vehicles per day. As I mentioned, those critical time periods that we analyze the project, what we're focused on is the one hour period in the morning, one hour in the evening, and one hour on a Saturday when the volume's on route nine going by the site or at their peak level. So those time periods happen from eight to nine in the morning. So in the westbound direction there's a little over 1600
vehicles going westbound in the evening. The peak hour is four 30 to five 30 and as I said, the numbers jump up in the evening, it's 2,290 vehicles going westbound in the evening and a Saturday it drops slightly down to 1,944 and the peak on a Saturday is of 12 to one in the afternoon on Saturday. As I, I already just mentioned that we looked at motor vehicle crash history. So we went through that, we did look at what you see in the slide here where the orange dash lines are, that's where there are sidewalks. So I think the thing, important thing
to point out is we do have sidewalks going by the front of the project site. So I think more so as you're thinking about the site plan, is just making sure that we've got proper pedestrian accommodations for crossing the driveways. And importantly as we were talking about the sight lines, not only can we wanna make sure you can see a motor vehicle, but you can see a pedestrian in the sidewalk and the pedestrian can see the vehicle. So I think those are just some things to consider as you're looking at the site plan. We have provided recommendations to say that we don't want any obstructions within the site triangle areas so that we make sure that a pedestrian in the sidewalk can see a vehicle exiting as well as the vehicle exiting can see a pedestrian.
So those are, are some of the recommendations from the transportation analysis. Next slide, Amanda. So this slide shows the anticipated traffic characteristics of the project. So the first number, and I'm gonna focus on the yellow column, which is the total amount of trips produced by the project or that we've estimated to be produced by the project. These numbers are based on statistics published by the Institute of Transportation Engineers for a car wash, in this case a two Bay automated car wash. The large number that you see at the top, which is 1,304,
that's the two-way daily traffic volume. So half of the vehicles going in, half of the vehicles going out. So it's 6 52 in 6 52 out, that's over the operational day of the project. And we say operational day because to the extent that the board puts parameters on the hours of operation, that does to some effect or does to some extent affect this number. But this is based on whatever parameters you wanna put on the project in terms of operating hours over those operating hours. That's the daily number I had mentioned. The traffic volumes on route nine for context.
So this is the number that gets added to. There are about 12,000 on an average weekday and about 10,500 or so on a Saturday. This gets added on top of that number. The next numbers are the numbers that get added to those peak hour volumes that I had mentioned. So the morning peak hour is 77 vehicle trips, it's 42 in and 35 out the evening peak hour. So this is four 30 to five 30 in the evening. The project would add 125 vehicle trips. That's the number that would get added to the 2000 and 2,900 vehicles that are already in the roadway.
And then there were in a Saturday, it's 165 vehicle trips, 82 in and 83 out focusing on that number. So as I was talking about the vehicle queuing analysis that we undertook, we used the that Saturday number because that's, if you look at the number of vehicles entering, there's 82 vehicles entering. So during the peak hours, that's the largest volume that the facility would need to process. So as we looked at the queuing analysis, we based it on 82 vehicles arriving and needing to be processed over the course of an hour. Next slide. So this slide shows
how we've distributed that additional traffic onto the roadway network. And so what you see is the majority of the traffic is expected to be oriented to and from Route nine. We were cognizant of exactly what the re neighbors were saying and I think think one of the residents that spoke was talking about using Waze or using Google Maps and what that mapping type of software was showing in terms of going through the neighborhood. We did a very deliberate approach to do exactly the same thing. And the numbers that we arrived at here with about 5%, that was the largest percentage that we had really of directing traffic through the neighborhood.
In fact, we think that's on a high side, but we think given the residential neighborhood that's there, some of the residents will want to wash the car at the car wash, you know, irrespective of how they may feel about it right now. So it is reasonable to expect that with, there will be some cut through traffic to some extent. We think the numbers as you look at it, show that that's happening today. Weathersfield Road certainly carries a large volume of traffic more than we would expect for the number of residential units that are in the neighborhood. But looking at that mapping software, and we tried from different points
to see if it would send traffic through the neighborhood. It did not do that for a destination at this project site. We thought 5% was a reasonable amount of traffic to be assigned to those roadways. And again, just looking at how much traffic could that neighborhood potentially produce in terms of induced demand to the car wash. And so that's what we did in terms of our analysis. If nothing else, what it does do is look at what the impact of res of customers using neighborhood would be. If it's 10%, it's not gonna change the numbers in terms of our analysis one way or the other. We think 10% is high, 5% seems to be a reasonable number.
But looking at this distribution, which you see is about 95% of the traffic is using Route nine, 60% of it is expected to arrive to or from the east of the site, 35% to or from the west. One of the dynamics we did not consider is there is a car wash, as you probably all know on the eastbound side, just to the east of the project site, that competing opportunity does affect some of the traffic numbers and affect some of the distribution. So looking at, you know, 60% of the traffic, if it's going eastbound into Boston in the morning, you want to get your car wash. It's more convenient to go there than to go here.
So there is a, there is a phenomena that happens when you have more than one competing opportunity in the area that may draw out traffic numbers down, but it also affects to some extent the distribution of trips. We did not consider that in the modeling that's here. We think if we were to consider that, it might change the traffic numbers a little bit differently than what we've presented. But this really looks at, this is the only car wash, it's the only game in town and you're gonna want to go to this car wash. We also did not account for that phenomenon of drawing existing traffic from Route nine coming into the site. So we just treated this as all brand new traffic.
So this is a brand new car wash here, it has something that's unique. You want to go here to get your car wash, it's a destination. And that's the way we've analyzed the project. So as we've looked at this distribution, added the additional traffic onto the roadway network and looked at what the impacts are. As I mentioned, if we looked at any of these intersections, what you'd see in terms of impacts of the project is delays do go up. We can't add traffic and say that there's no delay increase, there's going to be increase in delay. But the result of those delays was that there was no more increase in vehicle queuing at any of these intersections than about two vehicles. And as we looked at the residential neighborhood streets,
there was no increase in queuing. Delays do go up because we're adding traffic to those neighborhood streets. But in terms of what you see as backups out there today, we didn't show any increase in terms of the backups into those residential neighborhoods. So after we've completed our analysis, we have a series of recommendations and I promise Amanda, I think I only have two more slides and I appreciate you working through this with me. So we have a series of recommendations on the next two slides. The first set of recommendations are deal with access and circulation. So I think as the board looks at a site plan, I know very experienced board, these are all good things that you'd expect to see in a site plan.
So I don't think there's anything here that's unique that you wouldn't expect to see in a good site. Plan signs, pavement markings, we have one way circulation within portions of the site. So making sure that we have proper traffic control within the, in the development itself. Next slide, Amanda, please. We have specific recommendations that, as you've heard, are on the site plan in terms of separating the entrance, entrance lanes within the lead up to the car wash. The last two recommendations deal with those sight lines that I'd mentioned. The sight lines are more than adequate for the speed of traffic on the roadway, but we wanna make sure
that the robust landscaping that you've heard that we're not placing you anything within those site triangle areas. And then one of the other items is obviously snow piles mass, DOT plows Route nine, but obviously we are gonna be plowing within the project site, so we wanna make sure that those site lines are kept clear. So the snow plow or the snow maintenance contractor for the project site, we've recommended that to the extent that we have any piles that those get removed from the site triangle areas. And the last set of recommendations are the traffic management recommendations. So we have specific recommendations. As I said, we've undertaken a queue analysis to show
that in our opinion, based on the service flow rates through the facility, there is enough queuing within the site to accommodate what's protected in terms of demands. But these are kind of those backstopping features. So a minimum of two staff would be on site during the peak customer periods to manage traffic flow and vehicle queuing when a peak service day is anticipated. So the peak service day, as you'd expect, would be the first sunny day after snowstorm. And that's when everyone's got the white salt on your cars and you know, get car washed. That's a peak day for a car wash facility. And so during those time periods, as you heard,
we would suggest that a police detail officer be employed really at the direction of the police chief to just to make sure that those traffic flows within the site. And really importantly that the back to make sure that we don't have backups toward Route nine. You heard mentioned of signs being installed within the project site to reinforce no vehicle queuing on Route nine. The important thing about the onsite operation staff is so, so that they can see if the queue starts getting back to the point where it might interfere with entering traffic. As you heard from the site plan, we have a very wide drive aisle in the front of the site. So coming in because of the fact that we have one way in,
one way out, if that queue got back to a point where it starts stacking and spilling out of the two entrance lanes, the onsite staff can really direct people to go, they bypass that, use that front drive aisle where the vacuums are and then exit out the other driveway so they can effectively shut down the car wash facility, direct the traffic through the car wash so that we don't have people waiting out on Route nine. You pull the traffic into the site, you send it around where the V vacuum positions are and then back out the driveway. So that helpsss with managing the traffic flow within the site and that front drive aisle being so wide
where the vacuums are, is efficient to allow that to happen. And I think that was the last recommendation in terms of what we had. So the, the sign would be placed, staff would be monitoring it, they would indicate that the sign actually would say that the car wash is temporarily closed until such time as the queue abated and the sign would be removed. So I appreciate your indulgence. That's the conclusion of my presentation. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have now or if you wanted to continue with the presentation. Speaker 1: I would rather continue to be honest with you, just to get you know, everything on the record. Speaker 7: I appreciate it. Thank you Mr. Chairman, you,
Speaker 1: We can give you some exercise later up and down if we have questions. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Yep. Any, any other speakers? Speaker 4: Yes. Before I ask for Mr. Stevens to be admitted as a panelist, I would just note that most of the recommended conditions that Mr. Dur just discussed with the board have already been included on the site plan and or in the list of the applicant's list of proposed conditions. To the extent any of them are not, just to be clear,
the applicant certainly accepts any of Mr. Dirk's recommended conditions and would be happy to accept those in a as conditions of approval. With that, if Mr. Stevens wants to run through, looks Speaker 1: Like he's ready. Yep. Do you have a presentation, Mr. Stevens, or a slide deck? I Speaker 8: Think what I would, yeah, what I would like to do, I'll just share my screen and talk through the importance slide and then we can delve into any questions you might have. So just to introduce myself again, JT Stevens with LSA managing director of our Noise and vibration department,
and I prepared the noise analysis. I believe the presentation talked about some of the changes as far as additional mitigation measures, reducing of blower noise, et cetera. So what I wanted to do that I believe is the most efficient use of time and and clarity is to share with you and to share with the audience the screen here, to kind of talk through the important figure. Let me know if, if everyone can see this screen here. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 8: Okay. So just to provide some clarity
and a statement that was made. So what we want to look at for all surrounding uses, most specifically the residential uses to the north, is what is the noise increase experienced by those residents once this project is operational? That's the simple question we're trying to answer and this figure represents that. What these colors show, and I do apologize if, if colors are an issue, but for the sake of the presentation, this is the easiest way to show it. Is that where you see this light blue area, what this means
as that with the addition of the project, both the sources of noise as well as the mitigation presented specifically this, this wall along the northern property line, the, the increase in noise experienced will be less than zero. What does that mean? That means that the noise that it's experienced today is a minimum of 10 decibels louder than the noise generated by the operation of the car wash. So that's the important thing to remember when we're looking at these increases. On the opposite side of the spectrum, this yellowish color,
which represents the areas here, here and over here, those are the only locations where the operation of the project will increase the overall noise level. So combined with existing traffic by more than three decibels, three decibels is the level that is considered industry-wide is the increase at which human perceptibility becomes obvious in an outdoor environment. That increase of more than three DB is within the project site, as you'll see between the slight blue
and the yellow that shows you the degradation of the other colors. Less than one, less than two, less than three. Now I know in the last presentation we talked through some more technical things, but I think what's the most effective use of time is to present this and then respond to any questions associated with this presentation and go from there. Speaker 1: Okay, thank you. Any other presentation speakers from the applicant side? Speaker 4: If it would be helpful, I can have the project civil engineer, Hal Tuba come up
and walk the board through the modifications to the site plan. Speaker 9: Good evening for the record. My name is Hal Tuba. I'm a consulting engineer with offices at one 12 State Road in Dartmouth, Massachusetts. And I am the civil engineer and architect on this project. We, at the first meeting, I think we, I did present this project with, we had a site layout, Amanda, if you don't mind if you can put the new site on. And there was some comments from the building department, some comments from the board, some comments from the
engineering, I guess for the site layout. And mainly it had to do with, with the parking, one comment was with the parking. We had parking in the residential area in the back at that time. And we also, there was couple choking points or we called them as the, we had two lanes going into one before we entered the site, the, the car wash. And then at the exit we also had two lanes coming out to, to one lane. And the, the, the fire chief at that time had a concern about that too.
We, so with the revised site layout, as you can see, we eliminated those ch choking points and now we have two through lanes through the site. There was a question about the queuing also. We do have the queuing on site and as presented, we do have the capacity to, to queue 44 cars on site. They are shown on the lanes and they're labeled the parking for the employees were pulled out out of the residential. So basically with the residential zone it would only be a
fire lane and I won't get into the legality. I think Attorney Silverstein here addressed that. We also increased the, the buffer from the residential in the back. And presently I believe we have 55 feet, we only required 10 by zoning. We also pulled over 40 feet of impervious areas that were used for the commercial in the back. So on the environmental there's a tremendous improvement. This is a redevelopment project and according to mass DOT
and Ms DEP stormwater, we, we only have to comply with the standards to the extent practicable what they say. But we are not, we are complying with this as it was a brand new project. So we are going to meet every standard that is required by mass DEP. We are reducing the, the lot coverage by, with the impervious lot coverage by, by replacing approximately 12,000 square feet of impervious areas with green space. And most of it is in the back to provide a buffer for the,
for the residential neighborhood. With the drainage, we're collecting all the runoff through a deep sum catch basins to a vote century BMP structure before it's routed through an open channel back to an existing catch basin in the back. Overall we're reducing the, the, the impervious coverage and the, and the by almost 30% for the two year storm. It's a substantial improvement. And also the, the water quality is improved by meeting, by providing 82.5% TSS removal
and compliance with mass DEP and, and a local stormwater. And again, we also need to apply for stormwater permit with this project. So if we didn't cover, we didn't do all the review tonight, this has to go for another review and we'll be in compliance with, with, with all the local and state requirements. As far as lighting, we demonstrated, we, I think through sub we submitted lighting plans that all the lighting will be kept on, on site. It'll be a dark sky design. There'll be no spillage of light
to any the residents or on the streets. We are complying with all zoning. We're not asking for any relief in terms of setbacks or lot coverage or parking. We are in compliance and I am not sure if I missed anything but for the water tree, there was a question about the water usage. I think I had mentioned before that my client operates 50 car washes in the state of Massachusetts and I was involved in every single one of them. I've been to every boat throughout the state, every city
and every, every town we use a top of the line, a recycling system on site. All the water collect collected from the, from the conveyor goes through a series of three oil water separators. So I was, there was a concern about oil dropping from cars or fluids or where this is going. So all that will be treated and we recycle 80% of our water. The overflow from the water would go through in, in MDC trap that's required by sewer design
and by by required by local sewer department before it's sent to the sewer disposal system. That would eventually will go to the, to the sewer treatment plants, signage. We also added signage to, for the, to direct vehicles around the site and not to allow any queuing on route nine. Also there was a question I believe with Amanda. She sent me an email concerning the loud music
and we are agreed on that we can change the signs to not to allow the, to use the radios on the, on, on the vacuum around the vacuum spaces or along the queuing lanes going into the car wash. And again, I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. Speaker 1: Okay, thank you very much. Is that the conclusion of the applicant's presentation this evening? Yes Speaker 4: It is. Okay, Speaker 1: Thank you. So as I said, we will start
with board members first for questions to the applicant team. I'll let each of you sort of do direct questioning and direct answers back to you. I won't moderate that but just go ahead and ask your questions I guess for this hearing and for future hearings, I don't want to go in any particular order. I'll, I'll mix it up a little bit so that some people get a chance to put the take claim on the first issue. So, but I will start with you Mr. Claudier if you have any questions. 'cause I know that traffic might be one of your areas of,
Speaker 4: I do have some so I'll probably, why don't you come up Jeff and I know some other people have some questions so I won't steal theirs I guess as far as distribution. Wow. I think especially of the, the cars on on Wheeler Lane, obviously it's an assumption, you know 'cause we're trying to predict what people are gonna, but what did you kind of, what did you assume was it really was that just people in the neighborhoods route 27? What, what was, what was, where did you decide that they were gonna start taking Wheeler Lane
versus the other roadway? Speaker 7: So what we did is we started with a a point on Route 27 opposite where the neighbors neighborhood neighborhood streets were. So where you would enter into the neighborhood and then use the mapping software to say if I started at this point and this is my destination, how do I get there? And and it did not send the traffic through the neighborhood. So most of it had sent it down through 27 and actually using the U-turn maneuver and coming back to the site was what it did rather than through the neighborhood. So we started with that basis and then because that didn't arrive at a significant assignment
of trips to the neighborhood, we also looked at generally within the neighborhood how many households are in there and what did we think a reasonable distribution over the course of an hour might produce from the residential neighborhood. And so that was roughly about 5% which generated somewhere, let's just say five vehicle trips during the peak hours, which seemed to be reasonable in terms of both looking at the mapping software but also expectations on how many of the neighbors in that area are gonna get the car washed at this specific car wash. Speaker 4: Okay. Speaker 7: And again it's subjective to your point, could it vary by five 10%?
It certainly could. The numbers at looking at 5%, let's say were two to four vehicles over the course of the hour. So if we doubled it, you'd still be less than 10 coming outta there. Which even at that level it wouldn't significantly change the fact, the dynamic of that Right turn out right turn into the site coming back out. And then so you'd be coming in I guess on the east side and and coming into the project site exiting and then using the street that's on the west side of the project site. So even if we were off and it doubled the number, it still would be less than 10
vehicles over the course of the hour. Okay. Speaker 4: And the rest of the distribution as far as you said 60% versus 30? Correct. Was that just kind of looking at volumes on the streets or were you kind of looking at any specific information from the client? Speaker 7: So it was a combination of looking at the volume on the street. To some extent you're looking at some of the US census data in terms of population demographics. Okay. But really just given the fact that Route nine is median divided, it really lends itself to more looking at directional flows along the roadway itself. Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean frankly the distribution might very well be different between morning and afternoon.
Correct. Or Saturday anyways. Right. Okay. Just wanted to kind of, I guess clarify, you mentioned about the U-turn that actually during the weekday evening that it was over capacity. Are you recommend any changes at to timing or anything like that or has there been any discussions with Mass DOT? Speaker 7: So we haven't had any discussions with mass DOT on it. We did not recommend any signal change timing changes based on the impact of the project itself, it being at capacity. I think there's certainly some opportunity probably to adjust the timing because as I know you're very well familiar with the way that
that signal operates there. We're only stopping traffic in really the westbound direction to allow for that eastbound maneuver to take place. I think the difficulty in the evening peak hours because of the heavy westbound flow is the backup up to the next signal at the, the top of the hill and kind of balancing out that dynamic. But I think there is some opportunity for some retiming. Speaker 4: Okay. Now obviously a lot, a lot of your analysis, especially with ITE, we're talking about average days for the most part. Correct. Obviously you know, not when everything's frozen or anything like that, but I think
we got two things going on here or potentially going on. We have the average day, the average Saturday and I think a lot of the, especially offsite the the intersection such as the U-turn or whatever average makes a lot of sense. But as far as more the peak days, you know the days after snow or salt, which there were quite a few of 'em this spring or or Speaker 7: Pollen as we're getting into that season. Speaker 4: Yeah. Yes, true. So I, I think a lot of it, the queuing on site at least is definitely a concern with me and I'm not quite there as far as
I know you had some, you know, assumptions as far as Right processing partly because of course with traffic engineering, all the models are really based off of intersections, roadways, how they operate versus a car wash or some other, and and I think a lot of this also goes into, you know, you headset, you know, you get 82 vehicles arriving on a Saturday but that is in the one hour. Right. So I think a lot of when we're you were talking about the available queuing, right, that kind of really assumes that the following hour is less than the 40, you know,
we could start processing but I think, well I don't know if you've looked at any hourly data, the next hour may not be 82 but I'm sure it's still may very well be pretty significant. So I think, I think some more work maybe needs to be done as far as the queuing due to the car wash because I, I think that is a concern. I, I know there are some mitigation or some managements that's proposed, but I think that's kind of a, a critical issue with this. Especially just because it's, it's Route nine,
it's not a side street onto Route nine. If we get people back in into it, that's gonna be really bad. And let's see, what was the other, oh the other thing, yeah so the 82 might not, might actually be hired too. So I was wondering actually if Prestige has data as far as their busiest days, you know, 'cause ITE again it's more of an average day, maybe not completely average. 'cause obviously you're gonna collect it during, you know, times that you're more likely to be higher than others. But I don't know if Prestige has information as far as what the highest days that they've had.
You know, are they significantly higher than you know, the 82 and how often does that happen? Are we talking three times a year? Are we talking 12 times a year? We know there are gonna be times that are that are worse than that. So I think, I don't know, I'd be interested in more information on that. Speaker 7: I think the empirical data to your point, probably is more realistic to click at in terms of our, the theoretical model, I do know that car washes, 'cause we've worked on a number of them as well, they have the ability to be able to control the throughput.
They can ratchet it up and that's typically what they do during the winter months or when they've got a busy time period. And that's why in some cases they'll say if your car's not clean when you get out the other end and you can go back around and get your car clean. And one of the reasons why is because of the issue of the queuing that you had mentioned. And so they increase the throughput so you know when it's not busy you may have a longer wash cycle than when it is busy because they're trying to get the cars through the car wash there. I will tell you, and again we can supply the information that they've told me that the number that I've calculated in terms of their throughput, that they, their throughput is much higher that we've estimated.
But I think that, you know, instead of looking at theoretical some actual numbers, since they have, as you heard, 50 55 car washes, that data is available. Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. They should have lots of data. So yeah and I think knowing how many days a year, is that really say higher than the 82 or something like that? Because I mean are we talking one or two days? Are we talking about 15 days? I think that'll be important. John can just quickly to that point tell you, and you know we can provide more detail on this.
My understanding is that there are locations that Prestige has that because of where they are, they get much higher volume and locations where they get much lower volume, particularly locations that have been in operation for a very long time tend to have higher volume. They're more known, they're also operated, they've been in operation for a while and they're capable of, of managing higher volume.
The employees have been there a long time, but Ronan can tell me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that their actual process time is about half of the conservative three minute throughput per vehicle that was used as the basis for Mr. Dirk's analysis. Is that right? A minute and a half We Speaker 10: Can wash up to 200 cars an hour. Speaker 4: So with two bases, one pound, one tunnel, 200, Speaker 10: 200 cars an hour and one tunnel. Speaker 1: If you wouldn't mind stepping into the mic. Oh you gonna speak please. Thank you.
Speaker 11: Yeah. And yeah, Speaker 12: Good evening everybody. My name is Ron Drewry, I'm one of the owners of our Prestige car wash. So to address all your concern, I can answer any questions about the traffic. We are professional operators, we extremely well with the traffic know how to handle the traffic, know how to handle the busy days. So you get about 10 to 15 days a year that it's extremely busy, extremely busy. That to the point when yes, anybody would hear in the room would lie to you if they tell you that it's not gonna be busy on those days. But I can tell you one thing that nobody here
have given the credit because they have no information and they don't know the business as well as we do. Nobody take the credit of the carwash being down. So out of the 365 days a year, we lose about 60 to 70 days a year to snow the day before the snow, the day after the snow, the day of rain, the day of maintenance. So over 20% of a business is actually shut down for those days. So even he is a traffic exp engineer as an expert and you an expert of traffic engineer, nobody think about that part. So the day before the rain, nobody washed
because you know it's gonna rain and if he does wash, if you had a busy car wash, which I can tell you that his estimate is extremely high, I wish every car wash we open will wash 650 cars every day. It doesn't, I wish if then we would open 5,000 car washes, some of the car washes only wash 150 200 cars a day and that's on a busy day. Some of the car washes yes, do wash a thousand cars a day on the busy day, but that doesn't happen every day. Now when it come to not controlling the car wash speed and the car wash traffic, yes it's, it's true. So what happened is if you have traffic to the street,
you can crank the car wash shop to wash 200 cars an hour. Customers are not happy about it because the car doesn't get up clean. But what it does, it let us control the traffic on site, you know, and what happened is the car doesn't come up clean. But then we do control the traffic when it come to that point addressing other traffic issue on the site. We extremely well trained operational with the employees that come to work for us. So they know if this site is busy, they need more employees, process the cars better on the site, bring them in,
bring them out, and then that way we can control the traffic very, very well. So I don't know if that answer, so Speaker 4: What's maybe you said 200 people aren't too happy. What's kind of a more typical Speaker 12: You? So it's very hard to say. It's like almost saying how much a car cost, what kind of car. So we have so many sites. So we have sites that they're not busy. So what we do actually, we crank it down. So you come with your kids, you get the experience, we don't shoot you out, you get lights, you get the car wash, you see the soap and you get an experience as you come to the car wash, you didn't just really came to cup to wash your car,
you actually came for the experience. So the customer actually enjoy the wash. So we will crank you actually down so you can enjoy the ride in. Kids are happy, customer is happy, the car come out clean. So it's very a very from location to location. So what happened is we crank the speed to the traffic. So we fit the cow wash to the traffic that come to the site. Now like I said, nobody give credit to that perspective of losing so many days a year. So you are right, we may be busy the day after the snow,
but for example, the snow storm that we had, we didn't wash cars for a week, one week we were cleaning, getting the place done just to get it. So for seven days not one car went through the tunnel. So again, not looking for credit, for any traffic, you know, then, but then the next day, yes, it maybe was an 800 car day. You know, so it that that's really how it worked when it come to that perspective of the operation. And if you have any questions about traffic or any other, I would pretty much stay here and answer all the questions from all the board
members. No, I think I'm Speaker 1: Good for now. You good Alan? Yep. All set. Okay, thank you. We'll go down the line here, Terry. Speaker 6: Thank you. Actually, the, the question that I, that I had is the one that, that Adam Allen first kind of put forth, which was not so much what are your peak seasons, but under understanding what, when it is at its busiest, how, how does, on those very busy days, how does that affect again the neighborhood and the,
and the flow of pass by traffic? Speaker 12: So we, we've been, as Hal mentioned, that he's been involved in all our projects. We did been in other boards that we've pretty much had the board make the decision because we want to be a team member with the board, with the neighbors and obviously with the whole town. But what happened is once you have a busy day, the board can put conditions and say, well if you have a busy day, we want you to bring a detail, the detail come there and you know the police officer and if you capacity you're in full capacity.
He just waved them out. That's it. Just drive by. You can't, you can't come in. It's as simple as that, you know. Speaker 6: And how, how often would that happen in the course Speaker 12: Of the year? I actually, I said that it's about 10 to 15 days a year. It's a very, is that okay? But, but it's not half the year, you know, it's, it's not that it's like 60 days and 90 days. It does happen after, like I said, it doesn't happen after the snow storms. It take a while for the snow to melt the car to freeze and then all of a sudden you'll get one or two of those days, you know. But again, as everybody know, as they say,
we got a free cow wash, all of a sudden it rain after and then it wash all the cars and then there is no business. So. Speaker 6: Okay. Thank you. That was actually my, my only Okay. The point that I could speak to when I have a traffic engineer saying this. Speaker 1: Okay. Any other issues? Questions? Okay. All. Okay. Alright. Rock paper scissors. Rock paper. Andy. Go. Speaker 3: Will I, I take for as I sit on the board, I take all presentations in good faith that everything submitted is submitted in good faith and I, I tend to like to believe what I hear.
And I will say that I do appreciate the, the extent of the proposal that you have covered all the bases. The traffic plan is extensive, the site plan has been responsive to questions that have been asked. There's appreciation for the sound that's being generated. I think there's consideration for the neighbors and, and the owners here saying that his employees will be mindful of everything that's being discussed tonight. And here's, here, here are my concerns.
We work very hard crafting these types of special permits and there are conditions and once they are written, the business begins and we have had as many, we, we, we've had condition, we, we've had various businesses that I could name as long as your arm that don't operate under the special permit. There are things that are placed in areas where they shouldn't be. And I guess I've been on the planning board a long time. I drive around town, I'm like, that shouldn't be there.
That can't happen. And what happens, the manager who initially is well trained and is literally like in your particular case, asking people to turn down their radios and all the various things are being presented tonight is replaced by another manager and another manager and another manager. And now we get into the way things really operate. The, the fact that you conscientiously put traffic mitigation in this, that involves detailed police officers directing traffic on route nine and waving people off is
probably something a responsible applicant needs to put in there to address it. I can't see any scenario in which I could support a case where there is the need for police officers to wave people off e even if it was 10 or 15 days a year. I, I just, you know, anybody looking past this finding a day when you are, when you have got it maxed out and you are waving people down route nine to then make it any choice they want, they go home, they circle through the neighborhood, whatever they do, they, they would say what kind of, what kind of a
planning board person even looked at this? It's, it's insanity. We, we, this is not the place for spillover traffic and orange cones and cops waving people off. Maybe it surprises you one morning the traffic's heavier than you think. We've gotta call to get a detail. They're not available till two o'clock. Okay. So that, that is a concern that literally just shakes me to the core that we are, that I would be involved in. I approving that. The second question, comment I'm going to make is that i I I fully appreciate
that the travel lane between the vacuums, the perticular parking, leaving and entering is 23 feet wide, which should leave enough room. But we are putting together a scenario that will absolutely require somebody directing traffic as people have to leave if they wanna pull in and vacuum and then back out and leave. That it's, it's all just conflicts. And I think that just slows people coming in, slows people coming down. And I, I guess my concerns are not assuaged
even though I respect the presentation, I actually believe that the sound engineer was fairly convincing that there's gonna be maybe even a reduction of noise. I appreciate that. My my concern is that we will have conflicts. We will, we will require people literally waving people in and out, police moving people on. And it's, it's past my comfort level. And I say that with all due respect. So I'm, I'm not, I'm not taking any action tonight. I'm just stating my opinion and I really don't want, I I I'd just like to, you know, just state my opinion and let other board members speak so that
that's, that's, that's what Speaker 1: I'm feeling tonight. I didn't, I didn't hear a question, so, so let's, let's let's keep it moving Mr. Nots. Speaker 10: Thank you. I know that you're obviously, you're experienced knowledgeable operators and there's no question about, for the most part the onsite operation is going to be smooth. Gonna be really neat. I think though you've chosen a most unique site, every site is unique in its own right. This one is full of unique issues as far as I'm concerned.
So what I'd like to do is just go through things, just identify the things that struck me as being concerns. The red flag came up with the, the word police, not my history has nothing to do with that. It's just what, what I'm hearing in relationship to this particular project. Some of the things that got to me, this, this site, as I say on a hill, there's the number of concerns that I have. The the speed 55, I think he said it's a 50 mile an hour zone.
55 is what you concerned with your focusing on. It'd be nice to think that that was the case, but I'm not convinced it is. It's going to it to come up that hill pretty quickly coming up the hill lighting, which doesn't spill off onto properties. But when you're coming up and you're looking at lights that don't spill off on the site, if you look at the lighting plan, but you sometimes very often are looking right into the bulbs that are shining down and not spilling out onto the street,
but it's the light source that would bother me. Speaking of that, certain times a year coming up that hill, you're almost, if not truly blinded by the sun, really unbelievable. And In your timing of moving through the, the line, I know that at your competition up the street where I've been, there's a certain amount of time taken with just paying for the wash and that would can take some time.
I don't know how you're planning on doing, doing that to speed it along. I'm not at all really concerned about Wheeler Lane in the sense that anyone who's going to Wheeler Lane is slowing down for the turn and not really gonna be terribly impacted. I don't think it that might have missed something, but I think that when people slow down to go into your place, I think it's going to just, the slowing down is gonna affect the speeding coming
up the hill. There will be traffic going into Weathersfield. I suspect there's going to be more traffic in the years to come with the construction of the nine and 27 intersection. A lot of people are probably gonna avoid if they can that intersection and scoot off through Weathersfield. There are ways around, depending upon where you are, where obviously where you're going. One thing I've experienced in visiting MathWorks, they must have the, have the same problems. I know they did in, they're exiting the site,
entering into exiting, they've got lanes in anticipation of slowing down to get onto the site and clearly lanes the same type of accelerating lines except that get you moving so that you can meld with the traffic, blend with the traffic. So that to me that's a huge safety feature for the, and they must have some pretty heavy use turn times with the opening and closing the staff hours rather Noise. I know there's noise there and you discussed the barrier
and the excess, the distance that in the back on the north side, it, it's on paper, it's great, but noise doesn't seem to, unless it's a substantial berm or wall like the Mass Pike has tried to do along all kinds, all a little along the pike, noise is going to move. I can't fathom the fact that there's, I believe it was said, a less, less noise once this project is in place than is now.
I, if I heard that correctly, I can't understand that at all. What's being provided is a visual barrier. I don't know if the sound has anything to do with visual barriers. I am not sure also that your no wash days, which have a total relationship to your overall volume and so on. But I'm sure that your lost days have any impact on this project at all. And the concerns that we have in this, it's whatever concerns we have for the non, for the active days. I, I, I'm not sure what you say.
You made a point of saying that la the lost days from storm snow and rain, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but those are my thoughts and I thank you. You have very thorough presentation. You've considered a lot of different things. I'm just not sure I can quite put all those together and say, I really think you've answered all the questions. This is great. Thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you Mr. Sson. Speaker 12: Mr. Chairman, can I just Speaker 1: Answer Yes. Hold, go ahead Speaker 12: Sir.
Yes, I think that Ms. Andrew, you, you misunderstood me. We don't anticipate any traffic on route nine that we're gonna need a police officer. We just said you can put it as a condition if you think there will be an issue with two tunnels, we can wash 400 cars an hour. We're not anticipating any tunnels that any traffic that will back up to route nine. We can process them faster than they come. But if the board feel like there is, we said put it as a condition. So I think that to address that regarding the traffic, regarding the missed days, all I was saying is that those days there will be zero activity on the site.
So the neighbors will not hear any noise from anything, even though they will not hear any noise regarding the vacuums and regarding the blowers that we're gonna be using. But that's all I was saying. I wasn't trying to get any credit for those days. I was just trying to explain the operation. I Speaker 10: See. Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yep. Okay. I guess my comments at this point, I think that my colleagues have done a very thorough job and raising a bunch of issues that I, I would've had questions on as well. I'll just ask a few, I guess minutia questions about the site plan
and just I wanna hear the approach and and and why you made certain choices in the design here, starting with the two access points, right? Is there, is there the intention that the Easter easterly driveway is right and right out or is it in the intention that the couplet works as a right in right out? Okay. In other words, can you exit, are you, are you intending to exit on the east easterly driveway? Speaker 9: No. Speaker 1: Okay. You, Speaker 9: It's a right turn and right turn out. You, you enter from the east driveway, you exit from the west side, Speaker 1: Exit from the other.
Yeah. Okay. So why would you provide the radii as shown on the plan here? Like so on, let's look at the easterly driveway for a second where you've got, you know, it's a right in and you've got a radii sort of suggesting there's a a write out at that at that point as well. Is there a design standard or something you're trying to meet there? Speaker 9: The width? Yeah, we need the width for, for the fire access. That's what we need the width for Speaker 1: On the, on the suggested motion out. Speaker 9: That's the width that we need. And again, we, this is, this is on route nine.
We are gonna go to mass DT and they probably require whatever, whatever they require on, on the radius. So this might change according to, because we do have to go to mass DT too for Speaker 1: Approval. Right. I'm kind, I just want to clarify it in my head here and mean Mr. Di can help. Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't know what year Speaker 1: This easterly driveway. Yeah, if you right. As you've got it designed, you have a right turn in, right? You're coming off the westbound. Yeah. Route nine, turning into the site. Yeah. You also have a curb radii on the, on the westerly side of that entrance.
Right. Which suggests you're gonna allow an exit no onto route nine. No. So I'm asking is there a design standard you're trying to adhere to with this design? Or if you really don't intend people to exit that driveway, is there another design that would Speaker 9: Yeah, we maybe Speaker 1: Solidify that. Speaker 9: Yeah, we can. Okay, Speaker 1: That's my question. Speaker 9: Absolutely. And again, I said this is gonna go to mass EOT and one might change that. Yeah, but we, I know what you're trying to say. You wanna prevent people from, from entering from the driver. Speaker 1: That's my concern. And in No, Speaker 9: We can, we can do that as long as we can provide
the truck, the the fire operators. Yes, of course. If they need to get in and get out. Speaker 1: Well you've got a fire lane, you've got a fire access as well off, off of Wheeler Lane. When do you plan on going to mass DOT? Speaker 9: Well we need, we can file with mass DOT before we get local approval. So once we get, once we get the special permit, we can, we can file with Mass O Speaker 1: And you can file Yes, but there's nothing that prevents you from having a conversation with them. So are you planning on doing that pre, pre-filing? Speaker 9: Normally we wait till we get the local approval. Okay. So we not before we file because it might take, it might take another year to get mass DOT.
Okay. That's fine approval. If the Speaker 4: Board has a preference for us to go and have a conversation with Masto, we'd be happy to do that. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 9: I, if I may though, we already have the two existing so we'll be modifying for, we will be applying to modify existing curb cut. So we're not, we're not, we're not applying for an access as we already have the two access and they're both right now. Right. They're both full access out. Totally Speaker 1: Understand you Speaker 9: Got you the right access. So I think with the OT they'd probably look at this as an improvement because Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just suggesting that, that if there's some input
that they could give you now that we don't get into a ping pong match, that would be very, very helpful. Sticking with that driveway where you have the three employee parking spaces coming, right? You coming right around in, that's striping, not curbing, right. You've got, this is the way I interpret the planning, it's a striping and you got three parking spaces that are perpendicular to the queuing laying there. Describe to me how that those will operate in the context of cars coming into the site and an employee want to either access one of those parking spots or exit one
of those parking spots. How is that gonna work? Speaker 9: Well normally employees, they've come in in early in the morning and they leave in the afternoon. So basically, or or after the shift is done. So when you come in, there's no traffic on site and basically when you leave, there's no traffic on site. Those are not public parking. So employees parking and if Speaker 1: No shift changes that would Speaker 9: Allow, well there might be changes where if they're queuing, if they're queuing all the way to the back, it means they're almost at route nine. So this is the, this is when either we shut down the car
wash or the employee will have to wait another minute or two till they process the last two cars in case there's 22 cars waiting at, at the site. It's, but this might happen, I won't say that will never happen. It might happen maybe once every couple of months or so. So it is an employee, it's not, the employee will wait till he can get out. That's all Speaker 1: Not an optimal, in my opinion, optimal place to put them. Alright, let's go over to the other side and I'm gonna mention the dumpster. Mr. Sson, calm down.
Speaker 9: I'm not into, I'm not into Speaker 1: Trash. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're talking, it's an inside joke. I just talk trash. Can you describe how the dumpster in access to the dumpster is going to work? I assume you're gonna, you know, back in a, a truck lift it, how's that truck gonna maneuver? Speaker 9: That'll go around the building. What does that happen? That'll go around the building. Speaker 1: Which way? Speaker 9: Around the car wash. Speaker 1: Which way? Counterclockwise clockwise. I mean Speaker 9: Counter clockwise. Speaker 1: So is it Speaker 9: Frontloading or it's a front loader. Yeah, they'll pick it up back out and the, it's a front Thank
Speaker 1: You. It's a front loader. Yeah. Got Speaker 9: It. And, and those are scheduled so we can, we can, we operate 50 locations so we can tell them we need to be at the certain hours. Okay. And we know so it's not interfering with the Speaker 1: Car wash. Okay. That that, that's good to hear. Okay. I guess one other, I guess technical question for Mr. Dirk on the traffic related to what Mr. Kluger had said about the, the distribution, 65%
from the east, 35 I think west, right? The 35 from the west. I guess what's the, or what's the real origination of the 35% and at some point that traffic, I would assume most of it is going to be coming through the 27 interchange route 9 27 interchange. Right. I mean I know there's some bleeding out from Walnut Street and others, some of the other side streets, but my question's route 9 27. I didn't know there was a project going on there, Andy, what is it? What's happening there? Anything big? I haven't seen much, no. Okay.
What's, why did you exclude the 9 27 interchange from the study area? And just describe more for me and others how, what, what's the real or origination of that 35%. Speaker 7: So the majority of the traffic probably would be coming from Route 27 and using that interchange to go through there. I think the, the reason that we didn't study is because it's because of the reconstruction that's going on down there. So we didn't, we didn't, there's no way we can't collect data. It's kind of in a, in a state of construction. And so some meaningful analysis as it relates to it,
it really couldn't be undertaken at this point. But we do expect that that majority of the traffic would be using that interchange. Well the same with some of that 60% to the extent it, it's leaving the car wash and wants to go back. So I mean I think that the U-turn on one side and the interchange on the other side, we'll see those reverse maneuvers taking place within those areas. Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you. Yeah. And I don't know if I'm old school here, but the U-turn is the local colloquial. Colloquial is the sunk away. Is that, is that still a term here that we use in Natick?
We do. That's the sunk away. Yeah. Thank you. I feel just editorially, I feel like Natick sometimes is like a Petri dish of interesting traffic design. We have bele back, we have the Bele back at Speed Street, we have the sunk away and now we have a diverging or modified diverging diamond interchange in place of the cloverly interchange name. But we didn't name that, which is really interesting. So I'm sure it's a highway designer's dream, but I've stated in my opinion about that project in the past. So Speaker 4: We'll, we'll have to come up with our own nickname for that though. Yeah. Speaker 1: Oh, I got a few. I got a few. Okay. Thank you.
Board. Yes. I just, Speaker 4: I do have a question just for the noise guy. Speaker 1: Yes, go ahead. Speaker 4: A couple. Speaker 1: Can you excuse me? I'm, I'm hearing a lot of chatter. I'm, I'm sir. I'm sorry. Speaker 4: Just a kind of couple quick questions as far as noise. The graphics you presented earlier, they definitely seem to have less noise than what you presented. What was that about a month ago? Was that all because of the wall or is there other assumptions that were done? 'cause I think before you were close to 10 decibels that your neighbors pr not the residential neighbors but the business neighbors.
Speaker 8: Yeah, so the two main factors are one, extending the walls, but most importantly the change in spec for the blowers. The blowers that are now being used are much quieter than the ones assumed in the prior study. Speaker 4: Okay. And are the vacuums about the same or Speaker 8: Vacuums are the exact same. Speaker 4: Okay. And what, what is a, this acoustical fence made of, I know it looks like there's some cedar and can you go into a little more detail about that? Speaker 8: Yeah, so what's important, and I know this was brought up before about sort of I guess questioning what it would do.
So when it comes to something like an acoustical fence, a barrier or what have you, the important factor is the density of the material or if the material is what's called sound rated. So what we look at is the insertion loss of the barrier or material. You can use those words interchangeably, but effectively if the insertion loss is greater than 10 decibels or a 10 decibel insertion loss, what that's telling you is any noise that's going over which the model does 100% account for any noise that goes over a barrier is going to be
that much greater than any noise that could quote, potentially go through it. Now when it's sound rated, you're not gonna have noise going through the barrier. So whether or not it's a specific kind of wood or if it's masonry or what have you, once you hit that insertion loss of more than 10, it's sort of irrelevant how high it gets. Does that, does that help answer or Speaker 4: I'm just as confused as before I ask the question, I think. Speaker 8: Okay. All right, so let me, let me try a different way. So what the noise model does is it takes that,
that blue line, the barrier and it says, okay, if we put this in here and it's eight feet tall of stuff, let's just use stuff. Doesn't matter what the material is that meets that requirement. So it's solid, top to bottom, there's no gaps. And that noise that when it comes from the car wash is going to hit towards that barrier. Noise is gonna come out of the tunnel, it's gonna come from the vacuums and some of that is gonna hit the wall. Now if that wall were made out of paper, it has a very, very, very low insertion loss.
That noise is gonna go through that wall, as long as that insertion loss is greater than 10, that barrier is gonna bounce that noise back and or absorb it. Depending on what that material is, there is still gonna be noise that's gonna go over that barrier. So all of those factors are included. Speaker 4: So any noise, so this wall that's proposed is going to, for the eight feet where the wall exists, essentially stop the noise? Correct. So then the only I guess noise that's kind of getting through is the stuff that's going over the fence.
Correct. And you're saying the stuff that's going over the fence is go, is going to be less than what currently goes past the no fence, Speaker 8: Correct? That's right. And again, just to to clarify, I know there's been some statements made or misconceptions, I want to be clear. So if you're in the backyard of the residence that is due north of the project site, let's take the time when the car wash is not in operation, that noise barrier still exists, therefore that's going to do things like reduce noise from traffic.
Now we're not looking at that. That's not the point of the barrier. The point of the barrier isn't to say how much are we improving traffic noise reduction? It's once we take the existing condition, which is dominated by traffic, now we're going to build the wall and we're gonna turn on the car wash. And I use that to incorporate all the sources. What is that change in noise? That's what the graphic represents. That's what the graphic shows and that's really what the state establishes is assessing whether or not a project creates an impact. I think as we discussed prior, and that is in the report,
technically the state uses a 10 DB increase that's quite high. This is showing that our operations, all equipment operating full-time for the duration of an hour. So blowers not turning off, vacuums not being used. That's the the analysis that you see within the model and on the graphics in the report. Speaker 4: Okay. And I had a que I I think I asked a proponent in one of the first ones, and the question was there weren't any to observe, but you might know some that are not necessarily prestige. Are there any locations that we might be able to
check out on our own that uses some similar, not necessarily the wall, but the, the blower equipment that is supposedly quieter? Speaker 8: I don't know off the top of my head. I mean I could probably work with the manufacturer and see if they know of, of stores that have that. I do not know that off the top of my head unless Speaker 4: Prestige because, because if there's something similar I would love to just hang out there. Speaker 12: We do not have those blows. They do bring them to the car war show and when they bring them to the car war show, they actually turn the whole system on and you can talk underneath the blows.
And the reason they bring them, it's for those cases, if you have neighbors, there's an issue with any noise. That's really why people buy them. They do not work as well and that's why they're not popular. So the car is not as dry, but it does give you a hundred percent of really quiet, you know, that you can literally talk right underneath them. So it's super, super quiet. Speaker 4: Okay, thank you. Speaker 12: It's have a different, just so perspective wise, I'm sure everybody's been in the car wash. So the way I work your regular blower sit on top and then it shoot the air right down. Those blowers have a motor in the bottom
and they look the column like elephant and it's have a huge trunk with insulated and then they come from the top and then go down. So basically the motor is in the bottom by the time. So what's make the noise is the air. By the time the air goes through, quiet it down and then it come out of small nozzles. So, and that's how it work. Okay. So it's extremely quiet. Thank Speaker 4: You. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. I'm, if it would be helpful Mr. Clearer, there is on sheet nine of 15, there are details for the sound barrier which show an STR rating
of 26 and Mr. Stevens can explain what that means. But Speaker 8: Yeah, so sound Sorry, go ahead. Speaker 4: I was just gonna say it is Cedar fencing with a solid vinyl core that meets specific standards to achieve that rating. And that's why it's, it's not a visual barrier, it is a scientifically designed sound barrier specifically for this purpose. Yeah. So it looks like there's stuff to use your term
on one side of the cedar fence. I don't, is that like a foam or what would that be or look like? Speaker 8: Well, so for this one, as he explained, so that's where the vinyl comes in. So it's mass loaded vinyl. So basically what that that mass vinyl does is it has material inside the mass loaded vinyl in cases that, so that prevents those things I was talking about as far as leaks, gaps, holes. And so you've got two barriers. You've got the cedar and then you've got the mass loaded vinyl combined. Those have an STC as he said, which stands
for sound transmission class rating of 26. I would be happy to dive into that if you really wanted to. But the quick answer is the STC as a rating given for a partition or my material. And what that does is it looks at the insertion loss as I was talking about before, it all the frequencies and there's calculations, there's equations that, that get to that number. But basically the 26 is the reduction at 500 hertz. But what it does is it looks at the spectrum of all frequencies. Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you. We're gonna, we're gonna move on. Okay.
Thank you. Okay, so board members have had their say at this point open to the public for comment. Now as I said, I really wanna stick to new issues, new information. Amanda, is there anybody online at this point that Speaker 5: There are people line. Okay. And I only one person, but they do need to rename. They only have their first name. Okay. As Brian Speaker 1: And, but anybody with their hand up there yet? Speaker 5: Just one person. Okay. But they only have their first name. Speaker 1: Okay. So when I call, yeah, so again, when I call on you, please approach the mic, state your name, address
for the record and then please, you know, new information. I'm going to give a a bit of a privilege here to Mr. Chang if he's in the audience. If you would, you did submit a letter, a tho letter here if you would like to speak to it. You may or may not. It's up to you. But I'll give you the opportunity to speak first if you, if you would like. Speaker 7: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Pro temp. Speaker 1: No successful, fortunately, or unfortunately you see I'm the Speaker 7: Jetter. There's a reason I'm smiling. Thank you very much for the privilege of being able to speak first. I am an old man and in six days I celebrate my
78th birthday. So we're cutting into my sleep time right now. Oh boy. The gentleman earlier said that there are very few people, if any in this audience that know about traffic numbers from drive through car washes, et cetera. And as a professional engineer, traffic engineer, I have to admit I am also one of those people. I do understand, however, from the good old days when we didn't have computers to put stuff into, into models that people created and I, I participated in the ITE and trip generation rates collection data system knowing
that the ITE trip generation numbers are in fact a conglomeration of national numbers of very large database on a very specific set of independent variables. In this case, car washed with two tunnels as I understand it. Is that correct? Yep. Yes, those are the ITE numbers you used. Let's Speaker 1: Direct the questions through me Speaker 7: Please. Got, I'm sorry. Yeah, I apologize Mr. Sherman. So looking at that and trying to find numbers, especially in the limited time space I've had since seeing the initial report from VI about exactly what were
real life trip generation numbers, because if you recall in the first report that was submitted to this board, it was kind of a vague reference to their own individual traffic numbers from their own individual operations. With the VAI report, it is now using the ITE trip generation report per mass DOT requirements to create the report. My inclination was to search as much many databases as I could. And then I said I only have a couple of days
before we actually meet here tonight. So I actually went to headquarters of an existing car wash on Route nine up on in, in Framingham this operational. And I asked them on a typical day, what would, what would it look like in terms of actual numbers, months, et cetera. And it took some discussion. But I finally got those numbers a few days ago, beginning of the week. And then I generated the document that you have before you, if you look at the numbers that are both
by operation, by a, a breakdown of the data of about seven days worth of traffic transactions, actual car wash transactions at the store on Route nine in Framingham, that you'll see that there is a lot of instances of much higher trip generations, significantly higher trip generations that are either generated by the IT report and even more so than the ones that were originally submitted during the original report. So that is again, an attempt
to look at a real life situation on a highway similar to what we're on here. Framingham, route nine, route nine. And that's one of the things that then you look at the actual transactions by hour that I've included in a second enclosure. And you'll see one of the things that Member Cloutier actually talked about, or was the queuing based on an average hour. But in fact there are effects from the previous hour of the average of the peak hour
and the following hour that have re residual aspects of more cars coming in at a very high level. And so it's not just one hour that you really look at, but you really have to look at the overall impact. And I think that that's one of the things that, and believe me, I understand what the gentleman from the AI was talking about tonight, and it's very important to also look at the things that are said and the things that are not said. Looking at peak hour from ITE trip generation reports is
something that is required by DOT to compare apples and apples. This in fact, is an, I think, is a, an attempt to look at an overall picture at a macro level versus the actual micro level, which will affect the new citizens of Natick every day. Once again, I live in NA on Ranger Road in Natick. I'm a former town member meeting, town meeting member in precinct two. And I have been in Natick for over 50 years. I also know many know many of the people at VAI and I respect their, their responsibility, their professionalism.
But again, what he talked about tonight was things that are required for D by mass DOT on a macro basis. I just point this out as the main thing that I just wanted to say, at least for consideration of if there's any future analysis to be asked to incorporate those numbers. And if necessary, I'll try to look for even more sources, local sources of actual peak hour data over the time. And, but, and by the way, these counts were taken in February for the month of February, so they're relatively recent and again, during, also during the times
of inclement weather. So I have several other comments that I would make, but it's getting past my bedtime and I'd like to give other people here, my neighbors in the area a, an opportunity to speak. And I thank you for the privilege of speaking to you tonight. Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you Mr. Chang. Okay. Anybody else? Yes ma'am. In the back far corner? Yep. Please state your name, address, Speaker 7: Bob, Speaker 1: And again any, any new information, new issues, and direct. Any questions you want to ask through me, please. Thank Speaker 13: You. Yeah, thank you. My name is Becky Fallon. I'm a fellow ranger road resident at Seven Ranger Road.
And I am going to attempt to keep my comments extremely brief for things that I would like the board to consider. It was brought up in the traffic that they used Waze and Google Maps to identify how many trips might go through Wheeler Lane. I understand using that. However, as I frequently travel between West Natick and East Natick at various times of the day, sometimes traffic can be extremely unpredictable, such as when there are massive accidents and lien closures in neighboring towns that I think potentially could reroute more traffic onto Wheeler Lane to try to get there
at another car wash. Other car washes that I've been to often some of the delays are not just from vehicles queuing to enter, but vehicles drying their car at the end of it. And especially as they've mentioned that the blowers may be less efficient. I am curious how the queuing time vehicles on site and not having traffic back up onto nine could potentially be impacted by people needing to drive their cars. Also, the, in terms of the sound barrier, every fence has a lifespan. Is that something that if this project was approved, that it would be required that they always have an effective sound barrier?
The 200 cars per hour is less than 20 seconds per car wash, I confess. I'm struggling to understand exactly how that works. I'm sure that they could provide many more details if asked, but it just sounds like it's, maybe it's just literally moving through the car wash. But I'm just kind of curious how that would fit into the grand scheme of things with traffic flow throughout the project. And I understand the risks that were raised about police officers waving vehicles off. As someone who has been in EMS previously, we talked the traffic survey I mentioned not expecting any more high impact crashes, but if vehicles are slowing down
and the vehicle behind them doesn't see, especially at certain times of day when there's challenges with sunlight, I'd be much more concerned about potential for high impact, high speed motor vehicle collisions. And also the final comment about motor vehicle vehicle collisions, it was brought up about where the employee parking is and the employees getting out. Would vehicles traveling on nine westbound to turn into the project, be able to see an employee vehicle backing out to not hit them at that pinch point? Thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you. Anybody else? Yes, hand in the way back there?
Yes. Same ground rules. Please your name, address, and direct questions through me and try to be with new information or new issues please. Speaker 14: Hi, my name is Victoria Grafflin. I'm 45 Westlake Road and I'm a town meeting member from Precinct five. So I'm gonna speak to a couple of things here. First of all, just the overall use. It's a very different use for this site from a furniture store to
a very heavy industrial like use that would be operating 300 days a year, 14 hours a day. So generally, my general comment is that this is an inappropriate use for this site, but I'm gonna speak about environmental impacts primarily. And I have looked at all the materials that were provided. So first of all, I want to talk about air pollution. I don't think anybody's mentioned air pollution. Two lanes with a total of 44 cars stacking up, potentially queuing an idling car,
emits a lot of pollution for two minutes. An average car idling, it emits approximately a quarter of a pound of CO2. This isn't including any of the other emissions. Just a quarter of a pound, two minutes average idling car. So if you have 44 cars for two minutes, that's 5.5 pounds of CO2 in an hour, it's 66 pounds. If you have 14 hours, oh sorry, in an hour at 66, 14 hours, it's almost a thousand pounds per day.
And this is assuming you've got a busy day operating full-time. So almost a thousand pounds of additional CO2. And you can go and look all these numbers up. I've looked into car idling quite a bit 'cause it's a topic I'm interested in. So that's a lot of air pollution. And that's just the CO2. That's not the carbon monoxide, that's not the nitrogen oxides, that's not the volatile organic chemicals. And that's not the particulates, and that's additional pollution being generated unnecessarily. So in general, there's an air pollution impact and that will impact the neighborhood for sure.
So let's move to noise pollution. It looks like the noise study was done on a single day in March, March 12th, 2026. So that's not a lot of data in my opinion. The general noise level in the neighborhood was measured at, I think around 65. I don't have it right in front of me. But the point that the noise study was making was that the gap between the additional noise generated by the machinery and the existing conditions in the surrounding residential area would be pretty small with, especially with the mitigation.
From what I can tell, the outdoor vacuum machinery, the deep, the decibel level is generally between 75 and 90 decibels, which seems a lot higher than the surrounding neighborhood. Even if, and I don't believe that they're, that their ambient measurements are really accurate to tell the truth, they sound a little higher. I mean, I've walked on Hampshire Road there, it's not loud, it's quiet, it's suburban. I can't even imagine if you're in your backyard on Hampshire Road with those vacuums going right there. I mean, just imagine that. So I don't really buy that.
There will be no noise impact. And then finally, water use. We're in a level one drought already in the year, and this is not a new situation. We all know that water resource, water resource issues are a growing problem regionally, statewide, nationally, internationally, we know the science, we know what's happening with the climate. We know this is not a trend that's going away. So I understand that they reuse a large portion of the water, great. But even if the extra water they use is only 10 gallons per
car, which sounds about reasonable, that's still about a 30,000 extra gallons of water every month. It's approximately 10 times what the average household uses. So kinetic wells really handle another car wash with that kind of water use. And I just don't see that these issues have really been addressed. So just on the environmental impacts and the, is it an appropriate use? I believe that this is really not an appropriate project for this thank you site. Speaker 1: Thank you. Anybody else in the audience? Yes
Speaker 7: Sir. Yep. Mike McGuire from five Wheeler Lane in Natick. Thank you for fresh perspectives, technical data. We really appreciate it. So I'll skip those points that I made notes of and just reiterate some of the board's questions. I appreciate all the efforts. Obviously there's a lot of mitigation work done here. There's a reason for it. This is a nuisance project. We all know it. And that's why there's so much mitigation. Just remind the board when they put the temporary clothes sign up. I'm a resident. I live there on the nice days when car washes are open
and operational, that's when people are out walking their dogs. That's when kids are on their bikes. That's when kid, you know, people are outside walking around out there all the time. That is when they're gonna close the shop and wave people down. Route nine to come around and queue up on Wheeler Lane. It's just going to happen. We all know this. Police details, cones the trash. The other, the the rug store across the way. They have the same rule. You know how they mitigate it? Four o'clock in the morning on Tuesday, they're backing in
with their lights, dumping the trash. So they're gonna have to do their trash on off hours. That means it's gonna be an incon an inconvenient time for us residents for a trash truck to come and do its job, right? Because it has to do it off hours. There's a lot going on here. Again, they're really good at this. There, there's a lot of pros that have done this over and over again. The noise didn't measure ambient sound. If there's 22 cars out there in queue and doors opening and closing and people th th this, these noise,
this sound is not included in the study. The GPS settings, if you're at Stop and Shop Home Depot, anywhere in that quadrant. And if you have a void traffic on, you're not going down to do the turnaround at McDonald's. Sorry, you're going through the back roads. Water use is brought up. The 9 27 build, of course it was excluded. That's gonna cause enough problems as it is. It's just, it's going to be pretty tough, you know? That's it, you know, and expecting A-A-A-A-A-A staffer, two people
to manage 22 cars with radios and everything else, signage isn't gonna be enough. There's tons of problems with here. This site isn't meant for a car wash. And I, I'd appreciate the board's consideration here. Thank you so much. Thank Speaker 2: You. Thank you. Anybody else here? Yes. Speaker 7: Excuse me. Map Ale. 11 Hampshire Drive. Thank you for allowing us to speak About the transportation impact assessment. I'd like to highlight some of what seemed to me to be the more glaring problems as well as some things
that I think were simply omitted or inaccurate. A lot of these things were questioned and I appreciate that. But I'd like to take a moment and just spell out what's actually in the report, what the report itself says. Not the way people are describing the report or saying how could the report be changed. This TIA uses deterministic rather than stochastic queue analysis. That is, it assumes that if a thousand cars pass a given location in an hour, those cars are evenly spaced over the course of that 60 minute period. And each car outta that number that chooses to enter a given location does so at uniform intervals.
That's neither an accurate nor a realistic assumption. This TIA includes no speed studies only traffic counts. This TIA assumes rather than test for actual peak traffic hours. And it doesn't specify the peak traffic volume hours, it assumes are peak peaks. The midpoint of multi-hour peaks arising or falling segments of peaks at the end of a longer peak period. This has already been discussed by people much more qualified than myself and I think the board already understands this. So I'll leave that for now. This TIA on pages nine and 10 includes a heading and lengthy paragraphs on the Route 9 27 interchange project
and the road resurface work that's there because the board asked the proposers to include this during our last meeting. But the TIA offers no analysis, no numbers, no impact assessment related to these projects. It simply describes the work that will be done but offers no information about its impact on traffic. This ignores the reason the board asked for this information in the first place. Similarly, the TIA on page 12 notes quote, the directional distribution of generated trips to and from the project site was determined based on a review of existing travel patterns within the study area
and the use of travel route planning software, IE Google Maps and ways this has already been commented on, but I wanna note, I assume this is an attempt to address an issue raised in the previous two meetings about the impact of this proposal on traffic in the neighborhood and on Weathersfield Road, Hampshire Drive and Wheeler Lane in particular. But it provides no actual methodology. It vaguely says, and this was reinforced that it's based on a review of existing travel patterns, but existing travel patterns aren't relevant because the car wash and attend increase in traffic and slowdowns and flow aren't yet measured.
And it doesn't say what methodology is used to assess prospective traffic. Without knowing this, we can't know if this has any credibility. This TIA as has been, you know, thoroughly stated, identifies 42 vehicles of unmet processing demand and only 44 vehicles of total onsite queue capacity. A two vehicle theoretical margin is not, I believe, adequate. Additionally, this TIA does not appear to model arrival surges within the hour. It doesn't appear to model multi-hour accumulation. It doesn't model payment delays, it doesn't model equipment downtime, it doesn't model employee intervention, vacuum conflicts
or promotional and weather peaks. Just imagine how this tia's three minute processing time, as has been brought up, would be affected by one person fumbling for a wallet by, you know, the gears switching off for a moment. All these things render the Q time estimates in their current form to be, I think of little or no value to the board's decision making process. The TIA, actually, I'll skip this, it's about the land use, the the ITE trip generation. I'll skip my next one, which has been covered more effectively than I can do.
The TIA provides vehicle crash data on page seven below. Accident numbers measured during a time when a low volume furniture store occupied the site are not a meaningful predictor of what will happen when the site is occupied by a higher volume use facility. To put it plainly, the crash data was likely low between 2018 and 2022. Not only because decreased traffic volume was caused by COVID, but more importantly because there wasn't a high volume car wash there in the first place. Importantly, and I haven't heard this mentioned at all this TIA on page 14 states quote, there are zero conflicting movements at the East
project site driveway. Route nine provides an eight to 12 foot wide shoulder area along the north side of the roadway approaching the East project site driveway and wheeler lane, which accommodates vehicles decelerating and transitioning from Route nine so as to not unduly hinder through traffic. This is not true. This is not a deceleration lane. This is a breakdown lane. It's marked with a solid white line mass law does not indicate this is a deceleration lane to further confuse things elsewhere in the document on page six, this TIA states that although this quote shoulder is not conducive to bike riding, it can be used for that purpose unquote.
So how does it work that according to this TIA cars can use the breakdown lane to decelerate passing over Wheeler Lane where cars might be trying to turn right onto Route nine. Even as bikes are also using the lane effectively turning a portion of Route nine into a three lane roadway with one of those lanes shared by bikes. This TIA acknowledges failing or Neil fail near failing levels of service at multiple points in the area of study, but discounts them. The TIA identifies LOS EF conditions for Weathersfield road and Route nine tiles plus more U-turn movements.
It also predicts LOSE for exiting the project driveway during the weekend, weekday, evening, peak hour. The analysis treats quote, no significant change in the level of service grade as adequate even when movements are already failing or projected to fail. For special permit findings, I would think that existing failures should trigger heightened scrutiny rather than be used to excuse additional traffic. I would also add another significant emission at this point related to levels of service. This TIA correctly notes in a section on roadway and intersection levels of service that LOSD is considered
by the state to be quote, acceptable in urban planning, unquote, that's true, but this TIA fails to note that the full definition of LOSD is quote, approaching unstable flow. Small increases in flow can cause substantial congestion unquote, and small increases in flow are exactly what this project will produce. Furthermore, LOSC, an improved level of service with less traffic volume than LOSD is defined as quote, stable flow. But the LOSC definition goes on to note that even at LOSC quote, the ability to maneuver and change lanes is noticeably restricted.
And in the context of this particular proposal, a noticeably restricted ability to maneuver and change lanes is remarkably important. It's one of the fundamental reasons this proposed use is inappropriate in my opinion to this site. This T-O-T-I-A buries that this TIA proposes a traffic management plan as mitigation without proving enforceability or effectiveness. The TIA says at least two staff will manage peak period traffic. A police detail may be used after snow ice events. Signs will prohibit route nine queuing and staff will temporarily close the facility if Q'S extend to the beginning of the tunnel Q lanes.
Operational promises do not substitute for physical site capacity. The plan does not clearly define mandatory closure triggers or how cars already turning from route nine but not yet on the property are handled or where rejected vehicles go or how violations are enforced. To put this bluntly, the plan is the same plan that Dairy Queen uses for its drive-through lane in the corner of residential Sheffield Drive. When the line extends too far, put a little sawhorse out with a sign on it saying a lane closed. How is that gonna work with cars going by at 50 miles an hour with some cars in the breakdown lane signaling
to turn into the facility, others cars in the right travel lane signaling to turn right onto NA into NA fireplace or Totos and every car in the left travel lane too close to let anyone in. And that leads to another issue. This tia's site distance section doesn't address q turning conflict risks, which is the only real value of a site distance assessment to be included in the context of this project. The site distance section doesn't answer answer the central safety issue. Vehicle slowing or stopping on a high speed arterial to enter a potentially queued car wash driveway will block
the very sight lines that are now free because they'll block the visuality created by the breakdown lane. To illustrate this, I would urge the board members to go to Natick Fireplace when you exit look left to see oncoming traffic on Route nine. One thing you'll likely notice is that cars in the oncoming traffic approaching you and planning to turn right off Route nine signal. But you can't tell if they're signaling for Wheeler Lane the entrance to the proposed project or the entrance to entrance to NA fireplace. Interestingly, they can also be signaling to turn into the totos and bright beginning slot just east of you to your right.
Now. Imagine this level of confusion when there's effectively a third lane of traffic in what is by law a breakdown lane that this TIA recommends for decelerating and all those cars also have signals on. Are they headed for the car wash wheeler lane? Do you dare cut out? Will a car from the left hand travel lane claim the empty space you're shooting for before you get out? And I'd note here that in Massachusetts you must activate your turn signal at least a hundred feet before turning or changing lanes. However, Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you to, yeah, okay, let's, let's wrap it up. Alright, I I Speaker 7: I don't like the project. I thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you. I thank you.
Okay, appreciate everyone's comments here. Yes, one yep. Speaker 15: Hi, I'll be quick. My name is Nicole Micelli and I live at 22 Wheeler Lane. I think we should take into account the volume of trash this type of business would generate. Most people when they go to a car wash, the first thing they're gonna do is empty out all the contents of their car. I'm wondering about the police detail if it is necessary. Are the taxpayers paying their salary for that for that day or would the car wash be paying for that? And I'm concerned about this traffic study if it's,
is it valid if the 9 27 project is not included in that data? Last concern is about the employees. How many employees will be working if you have two, directing the cars, if there's a manager managing and making sure all the radios are off. There's shift change. So how many employees will be there and will there be adequate parking? Will they have to like spill over into the neighborhood onto Hampshire or Wheeler? Thank Speaker 1: You. Thank you. Anybody else physically here like to speak?
Seeing none? Do we have anybody online? See, Speaker 5: Yes, there are two people online but one only has their first name. Brian. Okay. And then the second one is Catherine Doran. Speaker 1: We'll go alphabetically. Brian please, if you would like to speak, please state your name and address. They Speaker 5: Just have to unmute Speaker 1: And unmute please. Thank you. Speaker 16: Hi, Brian Lunta. I live on 20 Locust Street town meeting member for precinct four. Sorry, I thought I changed it inside myself and, and fixed, fixed my name. I kind of am going on a different route here than it seems like everyone else has been going. I kind have a couple questions.
I I'm a customer of yours for the Waltham location. I work right down the street. I love the business model but there is a lot of issues with it with that, that location. Granted it's a totally different location, but I have a couple questions or things to consider. Maybe just think about these things from the, my experience at the Waltham location, the signup process. 'cause you do like a monthly subscription thing. It just dead stops everything going, everyone going in and the car is just back up right onto, in
that case the commuter rail train tracks. And here it would be route nine. If this were to get approved or does go forward. You're gonna get a really big rush of people trying to sign up for this. Can you come up with some sort of game plan to get people in and out quick? Maybe pull 'em to the side so the people that are gonna be a fast pay can go right through. I hope that made sense to you for the sound mitigation, just kind of the suggestion. I know at the wall, again, at the Waltham one, the, there's no curtain or anything to dampen the sound from the end at the end
where the blower is like scrub UB has right down the street. Just suggestion might help Also, all your data seems to be run around both of the bays running all the time. Obviously that's not practical at points in time. One of 'em is gonna either be broken or whatnot. I just think it would be better to come back with some scenarios of what would be happening if only one of the two bays was opening and the impact that would have. And then the, the last thing I wanted to touch on was you have like the perpendicular parking where the vacuums are coming out. I, I just think it would make more sense
to have that as angled. It would be easier to pull in, easier to pull out. Also the, when you're trying to merge on back onto route nine, there's a lot of talk about entering the place. There's not much talk about merging back onto route nine. You can only merge onto, onto route nine if there's a spot to merge onto Route nine. The car wash has no control over that. So you have control over the speed of the cars coming in. But once people start going out, what is some, someone might sit there for 45 seconds a minute
before one car can pull out. What's the game plan to do if the cars can't pull out? And also it also looks like your data's on car washes, not just how many people pull in to grab a free vacuum, which that might be useful 'cause I'd say at least 50 to 75% of the people at the Waltham location go there for the free vacuum and not a car and skip a car wash. So I, I hope you find a place in Natick for this. I'd be very happy but I just don't see a very thought through plan that's beneficial to the neighborhood and the town at most location
with the blueprint you're putting in right now. But thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you. I think you came close to asking a question, so I will convert it into one the signup process. If you could address how that works please. And that's an interesting question. Speaker 12: So the Wal, did he say welcome or Watertown Walham welcome location? Yes, there is maybe I think five cars before you actually hit the road. So the process over there, it's, there's two lanes will bring you into the pa into the car wash. Over here you have 40 cars. So what happened is, the way we do it today,
when we build new locations, we have pay stations, scrub it up, doesn't have them. So the pay station is where the customer, where the our employees and where the customer engage. So when the customer come to pay, our employees will ask him, would you like to sign in for a membership? And if he said yes, they actually just punch it right in the computer, a print the tag and you just put it around in the windshield. It really doesn't take any longer than actually the process of paying for the cow for the actual wash. One more thing I would love to address. Scrub app has been in business for over 60 years. They're extremely well known. People love them.
We are as a competition. But if anybody went to Route nine, the other way, he turn around to come to us, you know, so it's like having eaten in a restaurant that's been there for 60 years and you have a new location. It will take many years for us to build a business to compete. But if you want to address anything else, no, Speaker 1: I would love to. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks. Catherine is online. Do you wanna unmute and state your name and address please? Speaker 17: Yes. Catherine Doran. I'm at five point Street and until Mr. Vicenta spoke, no one had brought up this point. I'm gonna share just something really briefly.
I am a scrub AUB customer and I was there a few weeks ago and I was thrilled because I zipped in and I was literally the second car in line, no one behind me. And I thought I will get right through. And the car in front of me, I guess had never been to a car wash or couldn't make up their mind. The attendant is holding the tablet and they also do have tablets with people out in the lines too sometimes. But it, it was, you know, midday I guess. And I was held up there for five minutes. I was literally in a good mood because I was laughing by the time I finally got up there. It was literally a five minute delay.
They have multiple options. The express car wash, super choice, the works, and then if you buy the works, you get an option of a bonus. Do you want the undercarriage or your wheels shined or something like that. So I think some attention, more attention needs to be given to the payment and less when it's really backed up on Route nine and they're gonna crank up the speed and push people through, they're gonna forgo forego payment, which I'm sure isn't gonna happen. So I'm glad Brian Lunta brought this up, but I just wanted to speak to it a little more because I just experienced this and it's guaranteed there's gonna be holds up.
So thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you Amanda. Anybody else? That's it. Okay. Okay. Okay. So the board, we've heard from the applicant, we've had our own initial questions, comment, we had more public comment. What is the pleasure of the board at this point? What would you like to do? We are, I dunno if there's a ton of homework, there might be some, are we satisfied with the information we've received and considered or
Speaker 4: As far as noise? I don't find that I'm capable of or qualified to technically review what the present. I mean, I'd like to believe 'em, but I really don't have the ability to look into his assumptions and figure out if I think anything's correct or not. Lemme show you speak in the left. Oh, sorry, I turned that off earlier when I was coughing. As far as noise, I know me personally, I don't find that I'm qualified to review what was submitted. I don't know if anybody else says more information than I
do, but that is one concern of mine, I guess. Speaker 1: Okay, so Amanda, what we are still waiting for comments from staff? Correct? Speaker 5: So I do know that I believe Mike Boudreau is gonna be providing additional comments. He's a board of health director. DPW was gonna be providing comments and Claire was gonna be providing comments. Sorry, conservation agents gonna be providing comments Speaker 1: On this. Okay. And we don't have those. No, Speaker 5: We do not. So Speaker 1: There's homework there. Okay. When, when, when do we expect those comments to be?
Speaker 5: I know that they were gonna be working on them, but they would not be able to have 'em for tonight. Speaker 3: Okay. But Speaker 6: Before our next Speaker 1: Meeting, but before our next meeting or, okay. Yep. Okay. Mr. Nason, Speaker 10: I'm inclined to think that there was so much that I heard tonight, both here and the audience and all that the project, I think these folks warrant another meeting to, I'm inclined to set another meeting for this same type of presentation, an update based on all that was said tonight.
I'm assuming a lot of notes were taken. We could have a tape that is recording. Recording has been made. So these, they have access to everything that was said. And I'd recommend another meeting, Speaker 6: I think, I think on, on elements such as like the, the deceleration, acceleration lanes and my ever, ever favorite noise levels and, and the impact of noise on butters. Okay. I was, I was delighted to discover,
to discover that we have such a very well informed CI citizenry because we have a lot of people who took their professional experience and were kind enough to come and present it here or make reference to it here. So Speaker 1: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Myers, Speaker 3: When, when I'm, when I'm torn by something in front of us, I'm a big advocate of a trial period, you know, dog kennels, lighting plans, projects that are gonna be noisy, you know, one year review. I, I don't feel that that's a, a tool in our bank for this
because I, I couldn't in good faith say, yeah, go ahead and invest all this money, build it and come back in a year and we'll determine how well it's working. I, I just, I mean that just doesn't feel practical. So that, that, that's, that's the concern I have is I, that there isn't any way to condition it, you know, on, I mean, we can't have, we can have conditions, but the idea that we could like try it for a year, which we've tried successfully with other projects, you know, just wait to see how it works and then you can reassess
that this one doesn't really allow for that. But as you said, there are other town agencies to hear from a good discussion tonight. Lots of, lots of great feedback from the audience. I I do agree. And so, you know, if we wanted to let the applicant have, have that time to absorb what they heard tonight and respond to it, that I think, I mean we've certainly, that's a precedent we've set in many other cases. Speaker 1: Okay. I appreciate that. Yes. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I'm here, you, I, I'm with you. I think that, you know, let's give the applicant the, you know, time to absorb that, the information here. I don't wanna prolong this process.
I don't wanna call, you know, you all out to another meeting, but I think that's gonna have to happen at least once. So we'll settle that in a minute. And there is homework to be done by some of the town staff. Amanda, I really implore you to press them for comments and, you know, thoroughness please as soon as they can. That would be very, very helpful. So any closing thoughts for this evening? I think we're ready to continue the hearing. So I'll give you a chance to address Mr. Silverstein. Yes.
So Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 12: Go ahead. I'm sorry. We've been in court before. We've been pretty much in other towns, they didn't want the carwash next to them or whatever happened. We didn't come and ask for a variance for something is not allowed. If TIG didn't want a carwash in that zone, they should really took it out of the book. It's allowed by special permit. The definition of special permit is to be given with conditions. It's not to deny the permit. So you could say, Hey, we don't want you to open in these hours, we don't want you to do this, we don't want you to do this.
But when we meet all the criteria that the, the town gave us, I don't see a reason. Why would you deny the permit? Unless you just don't like the project and that's your basis. But if we meet the noise, we hire professional traffic engineers, we hire an engineers to put the plan together. We have a lawyer presenting all the laws and regulation. We make everything you want us to do. We add another tunnel to reduce the traffic, to reduce the speed. And we apply under a special permits that allow us to do it. And there's also case laws of neighbors next
to commercial property. When you buy a house next to a commercial property, there is a case law that say that obviously you can complain, you can pretty much express your concern, but you knew that you bought a house next to a commercial property and something will happen in that property. What's gonna happen in that property? Everything that is allowed in the zoning book, it's not something that we came up with and say, this is what we want to do. You know, it's allowed by special permit. And we met all the criteria that pretty much the town asked us to do. So that's all I have to say. Speaker 1: Okay. Appreciate your comment. Yes. If
Speaker 12: I could request Speaker 4: The courtesy of seeing the letter that was referred to earlier, and if other documents are submitted, it'd be nice if we were able to get that before the hearing when everyone's looking at it. That would be appreciated. I ha I, I don't know what date the board's gonna pick, but I would also appreciate if I could have the courtesy of being able to advise the board if I'm available. Speaker 1: We have upcoming meetings on the 20th of this month,
and the meeting after that is June 3rd. And after that is the 17th. So every two weeks. So what would you like? Speaker 4: I have a conflict on the 20th and frankly, I, I don't know when we're gonna see comments from other town departments anyway. So two weeks doesn't seem sufficient. The sixth or third, the third Speaker 1: June 3rd Speaker 4: Should work. Unless we get the department comments the day before, Speaker 1: We will try to avoid that. We will try to get those as soon as we can. That's why I asked Amanda to, I have a conflict pressed on that. So
Speaker 4: You have a conflict on with her Speaker 5: June 17th? Speaker 4: 17th. Speaker 3: Well we can certainly get anything that we have in our possession over to you tomorrow. Any letters or any, any part of the public record. We'd certainly be glad. Speaker 4: That would be nice. Speaker 3: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And I don't, I don't know. I mean, generally I, it would not take, I mean they, they're already working on these. Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there was a big don't vote data on what the first Yes. So that was Speaker 3: Correct. Correct. Speaker 4: Yeah. I'm sorry, what Speaker 1: Was that? Just the town staff has got the data from when that was submitted. Uploaded on Friday. Friday or last week.
And hopefully they're busy at work reading through it and they Speaker 5: Were working on it. Okay. 'cause I did check in with all of 'em last week on it. Yeah. It was just, they hadn't finished it. In addition to all the other stuff they have on their plate. Speaker 4: We'd like to proceed on the third with the caveat that if we haven't had an opportunity to review what's been submitted. Okay. Hopefully a continuance would be favorably received. Okay. Speaker 3: Okay. Speaker 4: And if I could just ask for some clarification,
I want to be crystal clear on what the board is expecting from us. So there's no misunderstanding. What is it that the board would like us to submit? There have been a lot of comments. I mean, are we expected to provide a point by point response to every member of the public's comments? I, I'm, I'm not clear and I would like to be very clear so that there's no suggestion that we didn't meet the board's expectations. Speaker 1: Yes. And I appreciate that. I think from my perspective, I mean, no,
not every comment needs to be point by point. I don't think that's a good use of anybody's effort at this point. My questions would be around the design of the access number one. I would like to know a little bit more about that, please. That's really it from my perspective. How to on point. Any anything else that you wanna put on a, have Speaker 6: We locked up the issues on sound amelioration? Speaker 1: I mean, we either accept what's the professionals, you know, presenting to us or if Mr.
Boudreaux has the ability to review it and give some comment on it. I don't know. I don't think, I didn't hear that the sound study needs to be resubmitted or redone. That's not what I heard. No. So interpretation of it, comment on it. I, anybody, anything else we want to add to a list of comments to be responded to? And it's not a lot on Speaker 10: On on what basis if, if we not
hearing that some of the things that were considered and thought of and just mentioned tonight, for instance, that I had for instance, just that I had did others also, if they're not addressed and we truly believe that this is not an appropriate project for that site, for whatever reason, are we, what, what is the board able to do? Can the board say by vote no? And then, and then is it then that the
legal question comes up? Do we have the right to do that? Speaker 3: Yeah, the special permit requires, has, I think in this case has like seven different criteria. And I think a, a vote a negative or a, let's put it this way, A, a if there's a positive motion, you need four out of five votes. If somebody puts forward a motion to approve, if, if that's not achieved, then that doesn't necessarily mean that there's a motion to deny. So there's kind of two different, there's two different, a motion to deny.
If that is the will of the board would probably enumerate those seven criteria. And with findings, like, you know, one of 'em is, you know, not substantially more detriment. There would probably need to be a, we, we ran into this before where our decisions just to deny weren't complete enough. So we probably need to go through the criteria and, and have findings on, on why we feel that it is. Or conversely there can be a, you know, a positive motion that doesn't receive the correct number of votes or the proper, you know, a number of votes to pass.
And it would just be that, I mean, that's kind of a different decision. Speaker 1: Yes. And let's not go there, presume where we're going, right? But I, but yes, there are criteria, to answer your question, there's criteria. Okay. We take testimony from technical experts, we've been planning experts, we have our own expertise, we have our own thoughts and ideas as well. That's the, that, and we hear the, from the, from the public. That's our, that's our job as board members to, to weigh all that. You know, I think whatever motion the form takes and whatever decision we, we make, you know, we need to go through the criteria.
We, we need to make findings on those criteria, positive or negative, and make sure we're clear about all of those. So that's, that's our job. You know, when we get to that point, I will say, you know, if the valuation fails on one criteria, the it fails. I mean, we have, it's all, it's not, or it's all of them. We have to make findings on each and every one of them. So that's our job. And you know, we're supported by town staff and I'm, you know, willing to, you know, extend the hearing and at least once more to get that input so
that we can have the fullest picture possible to make that decision. So Speaker 4: Could I Yes. Speaker 1: Just Speaker 4: Try to put this in a way that doesn't cause someone to accuse me of violating my professional obligations. That being said, the writing seems to be on the wall. I would ask as a courtesy, if the, if the outcome is clear as it seems to be, I would ask that you not force the applicant to spend more time, more money resolving
and responding to comments that aren't going to matter when you make your decision. If I'm misconstruing the situation and there's actually an open mind here, then by all means we will provide the board with whatever information you need. I would just ask the board not to continue this. If the people voting to continue it have already made up their minds. Speaker 10: I don't think that's the case at all. Speaker 1: What's the pleasure of the board? We can, we can close the hearing right now if you'd like.
We can make a motion to extend the hearing. What would you like to do? Speaker 10: I feel it's un unfair for us to the town of Natick to say no to, to, to close the hearing on this project without holy, this is a substantial project. And yes, there are numerous questions, questions, issues. No, I don't think you can or need be addressing each one individually, but you've got to have had a sense of what's happening here in the board of the questions. It's not that we've made up our minds.
I, I can't speak for the other board members, but I know for I haven't, yes, I've got numerous questions and I, I, I'm really concerned. But I'd like to give, I think it's appropriate for everyone involved to hear, to hear a little bit more from, from you folks. In other words, I wouldn't, if I were the board, if I were the client, I wouldn't throw in the towel. It's too early. Speaker 4: I would just say, so I, I appreciate that. I did ask specifically what it is we're supposed to be responding to. And I've heard one thing so far, which is the configuration
of the Western drive. So if there's, we will provide you any information you need. I feel a bit at a loss right now as to what it is I'm supposed to be responding to. The only thing I've heard is that one point. Speaker 1: But that's the one specific thing from my perspective, I think the best course of action, in my opinion, is taking the totality of what is said and you decide what you would like to respond to. Okay? And I will just say this, for the benefit of everybody, I would like not to extend the public hearing process more than one hearing.
I think you, I think we could at least assure you that the next time you show up here, we will have enough information to close the hearing and deliberate and, and move on. That's, that would be my commitment on that. So I don't wanna prejudge that moment, but I would, that's what I would like to do. So Speaker 3: If you want another board member's opinion, I I, i, I hate the idea of being opaque. I'm happy to share my thoughts. This is a very well prepared, well-funded presentation.
You have, you have covered all the bases. What I said earlier tonight, which you can review on tape, are concerns I still have. If this were in a picked up and put in a different location, I think it would be a winning proposal. I have, I still have the concerns I shared earlier. Take that respectfully with whatever other deliberations you have. It's possible that there might be an argument to be made the next time we meet based on other information that, that sways me in another direction. You know, if you wanted my answer tonight, I think I know what it would be. However, as far as, you know, one more crack at it,
you know, I, I don't, I don't want to be less than honest with you. I do, I do have concerns. And maybe those can be addressed the next time we meet. And that certainly is your option to, to, to hear what was said, respond to it in any way. And we've, we promise to take whatever's presented next time quite seriously as, as we have with the rest of the information we've Speaker 1: Received. So let's move on here and let's take a motion to Speaker 10: Move to continue to June 3rd, Speaker 1: Motion by Ms. Evans to continue the hearing to June 3rd. I hear second, Speaker 3: Did they say June 3rd or did they Speaker 1: Go from May, may date, June? No, I heard June 3rd. June, yes, please. Yep.
That's the motion. Seconded by Mr. Sson. All those in favor of continuing the hearing to June 3rd, say aye, aye. All those posts? No. Okay. Just so you, the folks in the audience know that will not be readvertised or anything. So this is your notice to printed calendar now show here. Yeah. So thank you very much. Okay, next item. Oh, there isn't one really planning board business, there's any other business that the board would like to bring up at this point? Yes.
Speaker 10: It just occurred to me that, in listening to this, do you think we should have a meeting whereby we discuss the seven criteria to be sure? Speaker 1: Yes. Well, yeah, let's, it'll be the next week. I mean, the deliberation will be Speaker 10: That here, Speaker 1: So, okay. Okay. Yes. So thank you. Alright, well I'll take a motion to adjourn. So that is non debatable. I, let's adjourn. Aye the meeting is adjourned. Thank you very much.