Speaker 1: Okay. Welcome folks. Here we go. Before we get started, we have a public speak section of the evening where any individual may raise an issue that is not included on the agenda and it will be taken under advisement by the board. There'll be no opportunity for debate during this portion of the meeting. This section of the agenda is limited to 15 minutes In any individual addressing the board during this section of the agenda shall be limited to five minutes. Does anybody have anything that they'd like to raise that is not on tonight's agenda? Okay. Seeing none, we'll get right into it. So, peg? Yes. Five Auburn Street. The decision? Yes.
What what, what do we actually need to do? Speaker 2: Paris. Speaker 3: Oh, sorry. I couldn't hear you. Peg. Yes. Good evening. Thank you for the courtesy of allowing me to attend by Zoom Tonight. I am asking you to vote on the final decision. You saw an earlier version a week or so ago. I sent a red line with just a couple of editorial changes this morning. So I need five of you and Amanda and Peg, I think have indicated who the, the members
that can vote are to vote to approve the comprehensive permit subject to a last review by counsel. But it has to get to the town clerk on Wednesday. Speaker 1: Alright. Which is fine. The one sort of administrative issue that we have to deal with is, because I think we typically set the five voting members at the outset and then Oh, Mike wasn't one of them. Was he? Not? 'cause of his arm. Yeah. Ah, ah, that's right. Okay. Okay. So that's not a non-issue. So it has to be everyone who attended the meeting.
Well, there's only five of us here 'cause, 'cause Gail can't vote. She wasn't on the board at the time. So now we have, I I I suspect that Jeff and Rob were likely to have been two of the five members that we sort of assigned to be voting members at the outset. Well, here we are and they are not. So we have these five who are here and that, that's never been a problem in the past. Everyone is up to speed. You've all read the decision, you've all read the minutes, correct?
Correct, correct. Everybody. Yes. So Caris not an issue. Correct. Speaker 3: So long as they've attended all of the meetings or if they've missed a single meeting, they have filed their Mullen rule certificate with the town clerk Speaker 1: That, that they have not done. I'm certain of Speaker 4: File the certificate. Speaker 1: File the certificate, right? Yeah, file the file. The certificate. So that can be, that can be done after the fact, correct? Speaker 3: Sure. Yep. But it should be done. ASAP. Speaker 1: Well, do we have mall certificates available? We'll just sign 'em tonight? Speaker 5: Yes. Speaker 1: Okay. So we'll sign 'em tonight. So that's okay.
That, that this would be cool. Speaker 5: So yeah, so Jason, you would need one. Speaker 4: Did I miss a meeting? Speaker 5: I wasn't present at five Auburn. Speaker 4: I, yeah, I think I was at all of them. Okay. Speaker 1: And I think I was at all of them. Alan was there. I was at Speaker 4: All them. Speaker 1: Yeah, I was. Andy you were? I was. Oh, okay. So look at that. We were all there. Speaker 3: Perfect. Speaker 1: Yeah, we just had a, we tagged in some other folks here at the end. Okay, so the motion then would be motion. Oh well Jason, it would just be a motion
to approve the decision as drafted, say for final Speaker 4: Review by council Speaker 1: Approval and typographical changes. Something like that. Speaker 3: Yeah. Final review and non substitute for non-substantive changes by counsel. Speaker 1: Okay. Alright. Alright, Jason, Speaker 4: I move. We approved the decision on the five Auburn Street application for a comprehensive permit, subject to a final review by counsel and any non substantive changes that might result from that final review. Speaker 1: Is that sufficient for your purposes, folks?
Okay. You want to roll call, vote. It has to be second. Seconded by Alan. You want a roll call or can we vote as a and bank here? Speaker 3: I don't need a, I don't need a roll call vote. Since none of you are remote, you can do an on bond. All Speaker 1: Those in favor A. Aye. Aye. Aye. So five oh approved. Speaker 3: Terrific. And that was David, Jason, Ari, Allen, and Andrew? Speaker 1: That's correct. Speaker 3: Terrific. Thank you all so much. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate your time. Okay, thanks. Goodnight. You have Speaker 1: Luck counsel. Thank Speaker 3: You. Thank you. Bye-bye. Speaker 1: Alright, take care. Alright, now the first matter
tonight is a continued hearing for two Westlake Road, an application for Peter BEUs for a finding per MGL chapter 40 a section six in the zoning bylaws, section four B and five A. The applicant proposes to raise the existing single family dwelling to construct a new single family dwelling on the preexisting nonconform audit shown show incident. I was not here when you first presented this. I don't believe so. Right. Jason were you, were you chairing that meeting? Speaker 4: Yeah, I think Speaker 1: So. I'm gonna turn it it over to Jason just so to catch us all up and then we'll go back to you.
Speaker 4: I think we opened, did we open this one in April and then continue to June, but I don't think you were here in June or Speaker 6: Were you I was at the last meeting, so, so in June is now, so, so the main meeting That's okay. I know what you meant. April to May. Speaker 4: Did you come last Speaker 6: Month? Yeah, my son was here for April and I was here for May. Speaker 4: Okay. Can you just remind us where we were and Sure. What you recall Our final requests Speaker 6: Were, so what, what we had done was there, there was an elevation that was uploaded to the portal earlier in the day on that meeting. And, and actually Peg had had put it there for you.
I brought with me to the meeting and that elevation had provided the details for the roof pitch because that was the change that we had to make in order to accommodate this house. The differential for the center line grade is fairly substantial, if you will, between two streets because it is a center line grade that goes from Westlake to the adjoining street. And the site plan was updated, we just didn't have an elevation. So we did submit that. In the interim, we have received a commentary from the sewer and water department
because they have a maintenance issue with a sewer line that runs from our adjacent street on Irving to Westlake. And that sewer line is actually adversely affected by the tree that we had originally proposed to remove back in April. We brought the driveway back to Westlake. The preference has always been to be on Irving. So we came back to you with a revised plan, two alternatives. One is to stick with the Westlake. The alternative is to go back to the side driveway, side entry driveway coming from Irving,
which would require removal of the tree. The grades are better, the approach is better. It's just a, a much better location of the driveway, but it does require removal of the tree, which is supported by your public works department as well as an who is more adversely affected than we are by the sewer line. There's been backups for to West Lake, but there's prominently, I guess annually backups for the one at Irving. I believe it's number three. So the supporting documentation was provided in your portal. There was the, the, the sewer distribution manager,
the abutter sketches and pictures to show you what they're dealing with. There two alternatives were there. The, the only thing that I, I didn't have initially was the elevation updated. So you could see what the gar side entry garage looked like at this pitch. So we did adjust that. That's been uploaded as well. And I do have copies to hand out if you're inclined to support the second alternative, which is our, our preference, then I can distribute those. If you want to leave it the way it was at the last meeting in May, then we'll stick with alternative one.
I just don't think it's as good a plan personally. Speaker 1: Why don't you hand out what you have there? So we just know what we're talking about Is this, is this alternative one or alternative two? Alternative two. The difference being the, the location of the driveway. Yes. Speaker 7: Side entry Speaker 6: Versus front entry. At, at the May meeting we had it as a front entry because we had to to, to move it to support the tree. Then we found out about the adverse conditions of the tree. So it would be better to, to remove the tree as part of this project, it's on private property, so this is really the town's opportunity
to have it removed at no expense to the town and to eliminate the maintenance problem. And then obviously the proponent can plant a couple more trees that'd be better supported over time. So that's our preference is to, is to locate the driveway on Irving. That's how the plan was originally submitted to you with a side entry garage. That was the April plan. I I have color versions of the site plan with me as well if we need it. Otherwise the site plan is the two alternative to there at the portal. Speaker 1: So again, if the board were inclined to to,
to vote in favor of it, we just want to have, we wanna make sure we know exactly what it is that's Yes. Speaker 6: Voted on. Speaker 1: Yep. So as I open up the package here, and I, again, I, I get the hard copy here. Folks may be looking at something different than I am online, but what I, I I have now is I have a site plan that shows a Westlake entry that matches the Westlake draw. Yes, sir. Speaker 6: Elevation. Speaker 1: That's right. And, and now I have the Irving rope. And so where's the matching? You're gonna say it precedes this in time? Speaker 6: Yes sir. Speaker 1: Do you have it with you Speaker 6: Also?
No, no, no. It, it was also put, put on there as alternative too. Yes sir. It's in your packet. Peg, did that make it to the packet? Okay. Yeah, if you just, Ms. Jack, if you just turn to this and I can give you the, Speaker 7: The full size. Speaker 1: Oh, there, it's headed right there. That's it. Speaker 7: This is, this is the alternative. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 7: And this is alternative Speaker 1: Too. Yeah. I gotcha. Okay. Thanks very much. Can I just have you leave those there just for the time being? Yeah, thanks very much. Okay, I gotcha. We did just get some recent comments today, I believe. Speaker 6: Yes, I'm aware of that. Another abutter. Okay.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna put on the record. Speaker 6: Sure. Speaker 1: Because dear members of the zoning board, we are writing to you before your meeting on June 23rd regarding two Westlake Road. We have attended and expressed our concerns about the proposal at the prior two meetings. Unfortunately we will not be able to attend the third, as I have previously stated via email and in person our primary issue is the size and height of the proposed structure on that particular corner lot, which is not level, excuse me. We understand that some modifications have been made, but it is difficult to understand the details from the submitted documents online.
The schematic site plan is very tiny, so it is basically illegible. We do not know how to interpret the drawing about the overall height of the structure or pitch of the roof. As we're actually unsure which of the two plans is currently is the current proposal. So that's between the different entry points. There's no realistic architectural drawing of the structure on this specific setting. We are actually unsure which of the last two plans is the current proposal. Is the two car garage accessible from Irving Road or Westlake? At the last meeting? It seemed it was from Westlake. We understand the developer has every right to build. It is difficult as a neighbor
and citizen to perform our due diligence to advocate for our interest and that the, that of the Weathersfield neighborhood. When this is the information available to us outside of attending a meeting in person, we will watch the hearing live on Pegasus. So we will be in the loop. We trust you'll take appropriate action to address neighbor concerns and ensure the proposed documents are accurate and reflect what will actually be built. Again, thank you for your service, the residence of town a since Ensure that's Peg Brol and Matthew Ner of five Irving Road. Okay, so that's on the record. So let's, your preference would be
to come in from Irving? Speaker 6: Yes sir. Speaker 1: It appears that the town's preference, at least the water and sewers preference would be that it come in from Irving. And the difference between the two proposals besides the area of the driveway and the location of the driveway is Speaker 8: Finished floor. Speaker 6: Yep. Doesn't change. 'cause if the finish floor of the house is dictated by the center line of the road, so what what basically happens is the driveway is obviously steeper coming in off of, of West Lake versus coming in off of Irving.
Speaker 8: So it looks like for, for Irving, if I read it right, it's the, essentially the, the, the house would sit up higher with the, with the Erving. Speaker 6: It, it, it's really not though. It's 'cause the finished floor is not changing. It's the garage elevation does change slightly. Speaker 8: I do see on the site plans, maybe it's incorrect, but it no say I see ff 3.5. Yep. Speaker 6: Yep. That's the garage finish floor for the garage. Is it? So the finish floor of the garage is changing. I'm, I'm saying to you that the, the, the house itself, the, the finish floor of the home doesn't change for either plan. We
Speaker 8: Would see that on the floor plans Speaker 6: That, and you'll see it on the site plan as well. The alternative one versus alternative two. The finished laws are the same because that's dictated by the center line of the road. And so this house is not quite as tall as many of the other newer homes that get built in that neighborhood because we do have a, a grade change that we have to resolve. Okay. Speaker 7: So TC is that top of, Speaker 6: Top of concrete? Yes, sir. That's right. Okay, so that's Speaker 7: 2 0 4. Speaker 6: Yep, they're the same. Okay. And, and I just wanted to add that these, these drawings are, are prepared at 20 scale, which that's,
that's a good scale for something of, of this detail. And we, we, when we do the survey work, this is on the ground, this is tied into national geode, ba datu. So there's no assumed datums here. This is all tied right into your municipal and mass coordinate system. So you, you, you can't put more details on these plans than know what's shown there. Speaker 1: Okay. Well, let's, does anybody have any questions from here? What changed between April and May? Did you change the pitch of the roof? Speaker 6: Yes, sir. So that the a a april wasn't just a, the, we didn't have the center line.
We did, we did average grade the way you nor normally would on your frontage lot because this, this is an intersecting street. You have a center line requirement so that, that the calculation wasn't done right. So we had to go back and change that, which brought the roof pitch down considerably. And then apparently some commentary at the meeting was to, to retain this tree. And the, you know, the tree is, it's, it, it it's really at its end of life cycle. It, it's better to remove it at this point. And, and again, plant a, an new a tree. The other thing I wanted to add was that we, we,
there was some commentary at the last meeting regarding the trees that are on the abutter to the Westlake side. There's about eight trees there that are all mature 12 inches, 18 inches in diameter. We don't wanna remove any of those. It, it, it provides a very good buffer between our property and the abutters property and we don't need to remove them. So those, those trees are gonna stay with the either proposal, frankly. Speaker 1: So we don't have new numbers. Right. Do you didn't at, when you changed the pitch and then relocated the driveway,
Speaker 6: They're on the sheet. They're on, they're on the site. Are they on the plan? Yes sir. We've got the height calculations. Yeah, they're, every, everything's right on in the corner here. We put 'em right on the plan. Yeah. Alright, Speaker 1: So the number is 34 3 4 6 3 4 8. Right, right. I'm just gonna put it Speaker 6: In my chart. So three, right, so three, basically we were giving ourselves the three inches. And that's in your total height calculation. The the, the dwelling itself is 31 7, if I remember right. Measured from the surrounding ground, basically from the top of concrete. So, so, so that's what, that's what the finished hogs will be.
Whereas normally it would be the average around, but we can't do it this way on this lot. It has to be the center line of the street. Speaker 1: Okay. So just to refresh the board's memory here we have the lot is undersized. The lot frontage is good. The lot depth is not there by about 15 feet. The front yard setback is good. Well it's, there's two fronts, right? Speaker 6: Right. Yeah. Two fronts and two sides Good. One is nonconforming today. Speaker 1: Yeah. And will become conforming. The other is non-con is conforming and will remain.
So the side is conforming, the other side is conforming. There's no rear the coverage is, there's no, what's the required coverage? It's blank in the, in the table. Speaker 6: Yeah. You don't have one. But we still do the calculation. And that's provided there on the sheet. There's what the stormwater mitigation is for. There's Speaker 1: No number, no sir in the table. Speaker 6: It's not required in your zoning district. There's no limitation on it. The, the building coverage is on my sheet though.
I can tell you what it is. Hang on. Speaker 1: There's no requirement for building coverage in RSA since when. That's right. Speaker 6: Yes sir. Speaker 1: How do you like that? So we don't need to worry about it. Okay. The Speaker 6: Building heights, we do give it to you though because it's part of the stormwater analysis that we do. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 6: And that's why the mitigation is on the site plan. There's, there's infiltrative drainage at two sides of the, of the dwelling. Speaker 1: Look at it every time. It's Speaker 7: 25%, isn't it? Percentage of lot coverage. Speaker 1: Oh, what the hell am I thinking? Speaker 7: 25 3 5.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Percentage of building coverage including accessory truckers. 25%. I was losing my mind. Not at all. I think I'm losing my mind this time. I think I'm losing my mind. Not yet. Okay, so it's 25%, but you're at 21.50 Speaker 6: I'm sorry. Open space. I, I apologize. You, you, you had said the building, I apologize. It was open space calculation. No worries. Yes, I I didn't mean to correct you. Okay. Speaker 1: No, no problem. Okay. Yeah. Minimum open space. None. Right. Speaker 6: Okay. Speaker 1: Alright, so here we go. Is it two and a half stories? Yes sir. Alright. Alright.
Now we have the numbers. And does anybody wish to be heard about this to Westlake Road? Yes. Come on up. Just have you give your name and address for the record if you would. Thank you. Speaker 9: Good evening. My name is Bill Thompson. Direct the butter at number four Westlake Road. Spoken before at a few of the other meetings. Some existing concerns still that I have and some new stuff that has come up. We talk about the, the trees along my property line. I'm concerned about those. I'm still concerned about those trees, the health of those trees, the way that they're built into this wall.
So I guess I have concerns one about just the integrity of the wall as it is now with these trees grown into it. And the likelihood of these trees potentially, you know, being damaged or even coming down during construction of the, or demolition of construction of the property. On that note, I would ask for a continuance if possible so that I could hire out my own private professionals, arborist and engineer to both evaluate the trees for their health and for the wall for its integrity,
potential erosion, you know, sort of now during and after the build. So that would be number one. Number two, we still have no current updated site in architectural plans, if I'm not mistaken. At the last, Speaker 1: I don't know what's been uploaded, but I, I'm looking at them now. They're here, I take it. We have these and they're online. Yes. Yeah. Everything has been uploaded. Yeah. So they're there. I don't know since when they've been there, but Speaker 9: They're there. I checked earlier today. I didn't see an updated plan. I guess it's in regards to some issues I brought up last
time there was a Caltech Rainwater collection system. There's two units being placed on the property. One was in the back right corner of the property, which is abutting my property. I had asked or proposed that, that be moved to the front part of the property. So if there is any sort of, you know, failure to that system or overflow of that system that the water would drain to Westlake rather than into my yard. But it still shows that that system is drawn into the site plan is still being in that back corner of the Speaker 1: Property. Okay. I think, I think that's accurate. I'm going to have you just come up and take a peek at this.
Sure. This is the latest and greatest. I'm showing you the Irving road entrance since that's currently the preference. I take it you live he here, right? Speaker 9: Yes, correct. Speaker 1: Right. And that's what you're talking about there. Yeah. Speaker 9: That was supposed to be moved to the front corner Speaker 1: Property. I think you requested it be moved. Speaker 9: Yes. And, and, and Mr. BEUs had said that that wouldn't be a problem. Okay. But it still shows on the plan that's gonna be in Speaker 1: The back. Alright, so let's, there's, is there more to come? Oh yeah, no, from you. Yeah. Okay. So let's do one at a time, two at a time. The first one, in terms of continuance for the purpose
of hiring a professional, I think that I would not be inclined to to, to go that way only because this is round three for these folks. Right. I think that would suggest you had plenty of time if that was a concern of yours to hire someone to have 'em come out there anywhere during this interim period. So I think just for purposes of equity that, that the board would not be inclined to do that in terms of the location of that Caltech system. Speaker 6: I have no problem Mr. Chairman, you wanna make that a condition and that it moves to the, that would be the northeast versus the north
Northwest. I'm fine with that. Speaker 1: Sure. Okay. North Speaker 6: Northeast would be to the, to front. Front, Speaker 1: Right? Yep, that's right. Okay. So, so one on of two so far. Speaker 9: Okay. Also, when the, I guess would be the architectural of the building plan. Yes sir. The bulkhead was also requested to be moved off of the Westlake or my side of the house to the back. But I don't see any new plans for that showing it in the back. I just want to, Speaker 6: Again, I don't have a problem with that. We don't need to put it on. It needs, there needs to be one, one. Speaker 1: I'm not sure I even see it right now.
Is it this thing right here? The little bump out, let's see, is it on the floor plans? Speaker 7: Yeah, Speaker 6: I have a bucket bulkhead, honestly, but I have no problem with it being located away from the northern boundary because we, we, we have two side yards and, and two front can't be in the front yard. Speaker 7: Basement plan. Yeah. Showing you here on the basement plan. Speaker 1: Oh, okay. Okay. Oh I see. Yeah, yeah. And you moved that to the rear? Speaker 6: Yeah, I would put it, yeah, that's fine. Instead of it being on the north, it, it would go to the west. Speaker 1: Okay. Make make a note of that. Alright. Speaker 9: Okay. Two outta Speaker 1: Three.
Speaker 9: Yeah. So as far as the finished grading on the property, or at least on my side of that house, I would assume that the grading is gonna be pitched away from the house so that they don't get water in their house. But my concern is that that water's gonna come down over that wall and end up in my yard. And as it is now with the grading, I, I take on a ton of water when it rains. You do So, so any additional grading away from that house towards our house is going to affect us.
Speaker 1: So let, let me, I'm gonna address two, two of the issues and then I'm gonna let Mr. BEUs address whatever he'd like. So I'm reading now from the board of Health letter on this matter, number five, final grade must be completed to ensure drainage from this site will not adversely affect any direct abutters. So that's a requirement of the board of health. Second thing is, I, I would assume, and I think we're gonna hear that the addition of these Caltech systems is likely to net improve the amount of offsite water that runs from this property.
But I, I think I'll let you comment and add whatever you think is necessary. Speaker 6: No, that, that, that's spot on because what's happening today is this roof has some collection systems limited, but they're there. But it's dropping the water right on the ground instead of putting it into the ground. So it'll infiltrate. So, so that's gonna make a difference. We're not changing the grades along the abutters lot line. I mean that's, that, that's spot on. That's the design. So whatever is is going there today would, would continue to go there. 'cause I'm not changing that part of it. But the roof water is no longer going to be going there because it's gonna be collected and,
and transferred to the northeast portion of the site. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 9: Okay. A water test. Has a water test been done yet to even determine if we're able or they're able to do a full foundation basement on that house? Speaker 1: Oh, I'm absolutely certain. Speaker 6: Yeah. And then the, the other aspect of this is that, that if there was a water problem, it it would be in the street because I'm actually gonna be above the street with this house. That's, that's the, the, the, the irony here, there's a many of the other projects that you get the, the, the, the house is constructed into the ground. The, the surface grade at the corner of the lot is actually lower than the house.
So you we're not gonna have a water problem here that much I can assure you. And they've, we've, we've, we've done an analysis and we're gonna still have to do some, some things with the Board of Health and with Claire in the Conservation Commission. Those are separate pieces. So Speaker 1: I'm read you for the record. Yep. Paragraph two of the Board of health on this project is the plans indicate the applicant's prosing to construct a full basement soil dust must be conducted and a witness by the board to determine the estimated season of high groundwater in order to provide a minimum two feet of separation from the foundation slab floor and eliminate the need for a sump pump.
An application must be submitted to the Board of Health and provide a minimum of 72 hours notice to conduct the soil test. The board of Health recommends the applicant provide a licensed soil evaluator to confirm the estimated season of high groundwater. Speaker 6: We do this all the time. As soon as your approval. Does Speaker 9: The witness, does that test have to be done prior to the Speaker 1: Approval? It has to be done prior to the building permit being issued. It's a lot of times it's done before it gets to here, but Okay. In any case, it's a requirement of the Board of Health. Speaker 9: Okay. So it will be done absolutely prior to build, even if they get, he Speaker 1: Can't get the building permit without it. Speaker 9: Okay. 'cause I'm just concerned that I know he has another property in the neighborhood
that I guess wasn't supposed to have a full basement but does and now pumps a lot of water out on a continual basis. So that part, I just don't want, want that to be sort of a Speaker 1: IJ I'll just tell you I'm sorry to hear that. If that's true, that might be something you could report to the board of the, the building commissioner. Speaker 9: I'm, I'm just worried about the effect on, on me and Speaker 1: Property. I I get it. I get it. I'm just saying we don't have jurisdiction over that other property. Yeah. But if you think there's something there that's untoward, it's done outside the bounds of the plans. This board, the board of the building commissioner, you report it.
Speaker 9: Okay. Speaker 6: And if there's a project we were involved in, we do the soil test with the Board of Health. I am a licensed soil evaluator and that's how it's done. So I, we wouldn't, we wouldn't have done that if there's a project that we weren't involved Speaker 1: In. I'm gonna speak to the other project. Okay. I don't know anything about Speaker 6: It. I don't trust, I just, I dunno anything about it either. Don't dunno Speaker 9: Anything about it. So, so how will we be notified that this test has passed? Do do I have to contact the Speaker 1: Bill? It's all not a public record. You could talk to the Board of Health about it. Okay. And, but I can tell you if if it doesn't pass the test, then they won't get the full basement. They'll end up having to come back here.
Speaker 9: Okay. Alright. So should there be a full basement dug on this property? Where is the, the fill being, is it gonna be trucked away? Is it gonna be piled on site? Because I, I've seen a couple of builds going on now in the neighborhood and there's massive mounds of, of soil, which I don't think this property could support all that soil. So will that all be trucked away as it's being dug? Yeah, Speaker 6: That's right. So, so some, we, we do have some grading to do on the lot, but any of the surplus would've to be removed
because the final grades are shown on the plan. We have to match those. Speaker 9: I just, I just didn't know if, you know, the X graders are just gonna pile that as they dig the foundation. Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't, is your question, as it comes out of the holes, is it gonna be put into a truck or, yeah, Speaker 6: I mean to some extent it probably makes sense. But there, there'll be some left on site. I mean there's, there's going to be some soil, some stockpiling on site. We have an erosion control barrier that has to go at our limit of work. Speaker 1: But then that, but then that surplus will eventually be removed. Yes, Speaker 6: Sir. That's right. To, to final grades that are shown on the plan. Speaker 9: Okay. Alright. So a new, a new developer that has come up based on the,
the driveways, whether it is the Westlake side or the Irving roadside, that corner is probably the busiest corner in the Weathersfield neighborhood. It's, it's a cut through for many, many people. They speed up and down the roads and, you know, the way they come off of weather field to Irving, to Westlake or continue down Irving, they're flying. My concern is, is that we have two schools in, in, in the neighborhood. A lot of children, you know, bike, scooter, run, don't pay attention to the traffic. Most of the time Westlake doesn't have a
stop sign at the end of it. So people fly to the end of Westlake and just continue onto Irving at that corner. Those driveways are pretty close to the corner. And if they have any sort of large vehicle mobile home motor home construction vehicles, you know, at the property parked in the driveway, it's gonna impede the sight line. And I just, I worry about the, the, the location of the corner. I thought I read a bylaw that not supposed to be within 50 feet of the corner. And I think if I do the quick math reading on the plans,
it's 30 plus feet maybe Driveway to corner. Speaker 1: Thoughts about that? I, I'm, I'm unfamiliar with that requirement. If it, it may be one imposed by the transportation department. Speaker 6: Yeah. I'm not aware of it. But we, you know, we, we could certainly go to the other corner, but then we, we, we start having problems with the, the grade because we be going downhill either way. I mean if we go to the other corner on Westlake, we're too, we're much too low. So it, it would be like a garage under to get to the house. And then if we go on Irving to the the west, we,
we end up the grades going up and, and so we're, we're, we're forced into this condition because of the 'cause of the corner lot to get the, the, the grade. So I I I believe our driveway to be proper, we've got good sight distance. Honestly the tree that's there is probably causing more sight distance issues at that intersection and it will not be there any longer. So I, I would say that there's gonna be an improvement in that regard. I I think if you put a big, the stop sign is nothing, the stop sign is nothing to do with us. There should be a stop sign there and, and I would support that. So
Speaker 1: Let me lemme just look and see if there's anything in here from any of the town departments with regard to, Speaker 6: No, it was engineering had had weighed in it. They would've been the one to tell me about the driveway if they Speaker 1: Had Yeah. Typical engineering. Speaker 6: Yeah. And they didn't say anything about it. Speaker 1: So weighs in on, on any concerns they have about those things. And I don't see anything in the file. Peg you see anything in there? No. No. Okay. I think a lot of what you, you mentioned is just beyond the, the, the authority of this board stop signs and things like that. Road safety. I, I'm unfamiliar with the,
that the requirement that a driveway be located 50 feet from the corner. But I suppose we could just rip through the code real quick just to make sure. Lemme see that. Do you, do you have any sense of where you saw that? Speaker 9: I'm looking at it here now. I could show you on my phone. Speaker 1: That'd be great. I'm looking for more or less a reference. Just a number. Paragraph number. Oh, Speaker 9: So it came across, says it's a board of health. Speaker 1: Oh, okay. That's probably why I don't know it. Speaker 9: No, I'm sorry, it's, I'm sorry. Board of Selectmen, uls and Public Way access permits. Speaker 1: Yeah. So that is be, that's not our jurisdiction. Okay.
So it is not in this book. We don't have control over it. But I think that that's something that if, if you're concerned about, as I said, Speaker 9: I'm just concerned for the children in the neighborhood, Speaker 1: Your concerns may be valid. What I can say is you should bring your concerns to the proper authorities, if you will. That I, that would appear to be based on that. Either the engineering, I think it's eng I think it's engineering. Okay. I I'm not sure I'd take that to the bank, but you could probably stop in and see the building commissioner and, and, and, and he could maybe steer you in the right direction. Okay.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Driveway is definitely through DPW. They have their own permitting system. Speaker 7: Alright. Speaker 1: So again, that'll, what that means is that if this board were inclined to approve this project with a driveway as it is on Irving Road and it turns out that DPW or or engineering says no go too close to the corner, they're gonna have to come back. Speaker 9: So, so do I have to address I don't or bring my concern to the DPW or the Speaker 1: Engineer? I, I, I can't, I can't, I I can't give you any advice necessarily, but it sounds to me like you, you bringing it to my attention, you're reading it from a, a document
that suggests another department of the town Okay. Is the enforcement body for that. So that's who I'd speak to. Okay. Speaker 9: Alright. I guess that's it for me. Good Speaker 1: Enough. Thanks very much. Appreciate it. Anybody else? You, you wanna Speaker 6: No, no sir. I don't, I don't need to respond to that. Speaker 1: Anybody else wish to be heard on this project at two Weslake? Yes ma'am. Come on up. If you could just give us your name and address for the record. Speaker 10: My WA is 16 Richard Road. Hello. And I couldn't tell from the plans. I'm sure you can, but I just wasn't able to tell what is the square footage of this? You know, it's a very small lot. Yeah.
And I don't know what the square footage of the lot is and how big this building is going to be. I can tell you that. And the how what the side, Speaker 7: The applicant. Do you want to answer? Speaker 6: Yeah, I can answer it. So the, the area of the lot I believe is ten nine, 10,916 square feet. The house is thirty eight hundred and forty four square feet. Speaker 10: So what would be the setbacks? Speaker 6: I'm Speaker 8: Sorry, that's just for clarification Speaker 10: 'cause it's gonna be very large on that lot, that small lot. Speaker 1: Right. So we have the setbacks as the front setback requirement is 30 feet and there's two fronts on this lot.
One on Irving and one on Westlake. The current setback on Irving Road, I believe it's Irving, is 29.2. That's a non-conformity. Okay. Because 30 is required and it's below 30 that's gonna be increased to 31. The other, the other front is currently 32.7 and that's gonna go down to 31, which is still one above the minimum of 30. The side is, the minimum required is 12 and we have 14 seven to the north. 15 three, I am sorry.
Today it's 14 seven to the north it will be 15 three to the north. So increasing the other one is 14.1 to the west and it will increase the 14.2 to the west. So I think the setbacks are improving. Moving if just slightly. Speaker 8: Okay ma'am, if I could one more detail Is, Speaker 10: Is it and the backyard help with the backyard? Speaker 1: There's no rear setback. Yeah, there is, there isn't a requirement in this particular case. Okay. Speaker 8: You wanna add something? Yeah.
So that 3,800 square feet is not including the garage, correct? Speaker 6: That's right. That's right. Speaker 8: Or a potential finished basement. That's right. Or a poten potential finished attic. Speaker 6: That does include any space that would be there. So, but I don't believe there is any Speaker 8: Yeah, you don't show an Speaker 6: App? No. 'cause there isn't one. Yeah, there wouldn't be one. There are stairs 'cause of the pitch. Speaker 8: There are stairs though going up there Speaker 6: For storage. It's just for storage though. Not for living space. Okay. Speaker 1: Does anybody else wish to be heard? No. Okay. Hearing the, does the board have questions? Speaker 8: Nope. Speaker 1: Yes, go ahead.
Speaker 11: Hi. If you add in the livable spaces of the basement, what does the total come to? Speaker 6: I, the plans don't even show finished basement to my knowledge. So I don't even know if there would be any. Speaker 11: So the, the application does not include an an elevation or a diagram of the basement? Speaker 6: That's right. There's just the, there's just a basement. Speaker 11: Okay. It's just that we frequently have dimensions in applications for that space because obviously there's a lot of use where it's not occupied by utilities, Speaker 6: It's dimension. But I'm seeing this, we're not, not,
we're not creating habitable space in the basement with this proposal. Speaker 11: How, how tall are the ceilings? Speaker 7: I don't remember. Speaker 6: I it's on the plans. I'm saying I just, I, I'm, I'm not trying to be evasive, I just don't know. Speaker 11: Well I reviewed plans that were available on the portal yesterday and this morning, but I have not seen the new ones. I'm wondering the elevation, what time those were admit, do you know what time those were brought into the file? Speaker 6: All the only, the update was to show the garage on the side entry. Speaker 7: The, the basement is 64 by 21. 600.
Speaker 11: Oh, so it's the same ones then. So we only have, we only have the paper version here that has a change on it with the driveway. There's nothing in the portal? Speaker 6: No, I put Speaker 11: That's equivalent Speaker 6: To this. I put that the one that's there that you have this evening that is at the portal Speaker 11: This evening. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 7: He uploaded it on the block saying. Okay. Speaker 6: Just so that you had it on file, 'cause I wanted you to see what it would look like with it in case that was an issue with the windows in the front versus a garage door in the front. Speaker 11: I mean it seems like a minor consideration for such a small change. However, that does mean
that the public has had no opportunity before the hearing. That is appreciable, no opportunity to review the drawing that is now on the table. So I have a concern about that just for everybody here who gets to do these fun applications. It'd be great if we had them much sooner than half an hour before the hearing begins. Speaker 6: Understood. We we're not trying to again, avoid a process or a detail. The, the, the architectural plans are very detailed.
We'd wanted people to be able to see what the garage was. If it was turned on the other side, it's the same garage. It's identical so it doesn't really change anything. The dormer stays in the front with the windows instead of a garage Speaker 11: Door. I guess it would be the, the same principle of a trust yet verify. Speaker 6: Thank you. Okay. Sorry. Speaker 1: Anybody else on the board have any questions? So it's enlarged house, but what I didn't hear tonight was any concern about the total size except for the letter that I wrote into the read into the record. Speaker 7: Did you have a Speaker 1: Hand up? Oh, yes ma'am. Come on up. Hi. Hi. Speaker 12: I'm Lydia Schaefer. I live at nine Richard Road. Okay.
And I, I went in, I downloaded the drawings and I, they're not accurate apparently for, because four or five o'clock I am concerned about the size. Very concerned about the size. It's really a monster house for that lot and especially a corner lot. And my neighbors are right. That is a really busy intersection. I mean, it's not like, you know, downtown, but a lot of people 'cause it's a cut through area and I am concerned that it's going to really affect mobility in that area and,
and danger make it maybe potentially more dangerous besides it's ugly. It's, I mean the h my ugly in a way. I mean it's just this giant thing. This is what they, what happened in, in Oak Hill in Newton and little tiny lots and then woo McMansions and it looks, it's not, doesn't fit in with the neighborhood and the quality of our neighborhood. It's important to us, but there is a safety issue too. So thank you for listening. Speaker 1: Can you just help me to flush out the safety issue? Speaker 12: Safety issue? Well, I think the thing that
that bill brought up is really very true. That once people buy the house, it's their house. They can do what they want and if they park in a big trailer in the driveway, that is going to affect cars coming up to the corner and seeing around the corner. Speaker 1: To my knowledge, i i, I just, this board is just without jurisdiction to determine the safety of a proposed project based on the future type of vehicle that may park in the driveway. It's just, that's beyond our, beyond our authority.
If that were the case, you know, you basically couldn't build on a corner, right. Because then everyone would come and say they could buy a bus tomorrow, they could buy an RV tomorrow, they could park a boat in the driveway. We just don't, we just don't have that, we don't have that brought up an authority to, to sort of speculate that someday some future owner might have a very large vehicle if the Speaker 12: Driveway, well, the other, the other thing is the, the driveway, I mean the garage was not part of when we looked at how big it was gonna be. We don't really look at, I mean how much does
that add the garage? Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not sure the, the, I think the garage has always been part of the plan. Speaker 12: Yeah. But not how much space. I mean it's very hard for people that are not architects and Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I get it. You're talking about in this number, is it the number that was just given? Is that what you're talking about? Like whether the the, the Yeah. Yeah. So you may or may not be aware of a, of a, of a term called FAR, which is No, I'll give you a little bit of knowledge on it then. It's it's floor area ratio.
It it, it's the ratio of the total square footage of a building as a percentage of the total square footage of the lot. Right. Okay. And a lot of towns have an FAR. We do not, this town for whatever reason is chosen not to include FAR as a dimensional restriction on building. The only limitation you have are setbacks and then this total footprint. Right. That's how much building can cover the lot. 25%.
They're below that. The setbacks, they're within those, you're right. The height, they're below it and so the lot is too small. Okay. That's why they're here. So the question is, is whether what's gonna be put on this lot is substantially more detrimental to the neighborhood than what's there today. And I hear safety, although as I've said, I I think in large part that's quite speculative. And so then I'm left wanting to try to find something that's substantially more detrimental
to support your concern. Speaker 12: So how do we get that FAA, what is it? Speaker 1: Oh, that's gonna be a different department. Speaker 12: No, but what department? Thank you. Yeah. The other thing is, and this is just my neighbors and I, the same builder has and owner of real estate person, whatever, has two other houses in the area. One hasn't sold in two years. I think it's been up. And I find that disconcerting to have these for sale signs up for a long time on a dwelling in my neighborhood.
Yeah. And that's, I sort of lost faith in I know it's not, I'm just saying it for public record here. Yeah, I appreciate that. I know you have no jurisdiction over that. Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't, I I think that, I think if I'm hearing you correctly, there's a market force out there that's gonna dictate what should and shouldn't be built on these lots. And if a lot, if a, if a structure was built somewhere large, I guess you're saying on a lot that's too small. Speaker 12: Yeah. One liberty. Speaker 1: Yeah. So may maybe that will reduce builder's desire
to replicate that same kind of situation going forward if they can't sell 'em. But that it hasn't sold that there's a for sale sign on it for two years is simply not relevant for this board. Speaker 12: I guess it, I have, we have, I should say for my friends and I diminish trust in the not in the board Speaker 1: It takes, do whatever shots you want. Speaker 12: No, no, not in the board. But I mean you're, you're playing with the deck. You have here the rules that you have, but in the agent
that's putting these buildings up. Speaker 1: Fair enough. Speaker 12: That's it. Thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes sir. Speaker 13: My name is Jim Cody. I live at 14 Bradford Road. I live down the street and around the corner. I walk this neighborhood a lot. My concern with this property is with the, the height of this house in reference to number four bill that just came up and spoke. It's gonna be considerably taller than his house, which is just a ranch, a hip roof ranch. So, and it, this is what happens with the corner lots.
They they really encroach, they look right down. There's no privacy whatsoever. And there's already a height difference grade with this lot right now. There's that old scraggly pile of rocks in scrub trees and crap that looks down over his property. And now you're gonna have this huge house sitting there. And if you're putting the driveway, the garage on Irving, could you possibly relocate the garage from the Westlake side? Bring it over towards the Weathersfield side. Gives a better line of sight when you're coming up Westlake
and turning, it's the, it's the only two story house on that corner. There's a line of sight issue anyways when you come up Westlake and you go to turn either down Irving or right on Irving to Weathersfield because Irving drops down is a short line of sight. It's maybe, maybe maybe one house and that's it. So cars are flying up, Irving becoming quickly down off of Weathersfield onto Irving. And then the pedestrians
or cars are stuck there at, at the top of Westlake. And I think it would make a lot more sense to move if it's gonna have it on the same thing, the driveway in the garage on Irving, push that driveway garage over to the Weathersfield side. But I'm, I'm very concerned. I think it's too tall for that location. Very tall. Speaker 1: Thank you very much. You're welcome. Does anybody have anything else they'd like to add? Does the board have any questions? Speaker 7: No. Speaker 1: No. Well, I've got some concerns. I really do. I think it's a lot of house for that lot.
Speaker 6: When we started this process, Mr. Chairman, we, we had dormers on the front of this house. Those were eliminated. There's no third floor any longer because of the roof pitch, which was dropped considerably from the original proposal. The house has been brought down. This is not uncommon for this neighborhood on this size lot. We, we meet the grades on the lot. We're not changing them dramatically. We meet the requirements. It's all I can state. Speaker 8: Mr. John do have one question since certification, what he just said. So I was confused about this before and I'll, I still am so I'll ask it. So it looks like I'm looking at the, the new drawings.
Is it on the new drawings apparently. And you have a height from grade to ridge of 34 feet, four inches. That's with the change in roof pitch. Meaning that you would think the ridge has come down. You're right up against the 35 feet. I'm just curious, how weren't you above before? Speaker 6: Yeah, it's, it's, it's 31 8. So so you have to understand that, that we're showing the, the grade to ridge. 'cause you the grade, the grade is defined. This is a corner lot. The grade is defined by the center line of the street.
Speaker 8: Oh, okay. That's right. Speaker 6: That's the de the definition is what is being driven. Okay. I just wanna make sure. Okay, thank you. Clarification. Sorry, I don't mean to make it confusing. It's just that's the right way to do it. Speaker 1: So that changes the average grade. Speaker 6: That is the average grade plan. That's what I'm saying to you. That's, that's what's important about it is a def that's a defined term. Speaker 1: Sure. No, on a corner lot. On Speaker 6: A corner lot. Right. It's just awkward when you see it that way. But that's the right way to show it. Okay. Speaker 1: This has to be, I think
I I think 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Right, because you weren't here at the last hearing. Speaker 4: It's already been two hearings with Speaker 1: Two hearings. This is the third hearing. Yeah. Okay. Does anybody have any thoughts before we, we close it? Okay. Closed. Speaker 6: Okay. Thank you. Speaker 1: Okay, so why don't we hear a motion you have these conditions. Yeah, Speaker 4: I would move that we approve the project based on our finding that it's not substantially more detrimental to the neighborhood than the previous non-conforming use and structure provided built and substantial conformance of the plan submitted
and any requirements from town departments who submitted letters to the board as well as the following conditions that the Caltech infiltration system that's shown to the northwest be moved to the northeast corner of the house and the bulkhead that is shown on the floor plans to the north be moved to the west side or behind the house. I think that's what it was. And that's what Speaker 1: I had. And then just specifically that the driveway be located in off Irving Road
Speaker 4: And that we're approving the plan submitted that showed the driveway off of Irving Road, not the other one. Speaker 1: Right. And do we have something over there? Speaker 7: Oh, just to, Speaker 11: I'm point of order I guess is, I'm not sure exactly how these rules work, but since you were not here for April and May, doesn't that mean you've missed too many? I read, I, I read Speaker 1: To vote, I read the meeting minutes for those meetings.
So I have to file a, a, a document, Speaker 11: A mullen certificate. Right. But I thought that was for missing one hearing. Speaker 1: I don't know. Peg, do we know if it's, it's only one? I think. Was I here in, I think it was here. I was here in the original meeting. 'cause my notes are in the file. Yeah, my son told me. You, you So I have missed only one. Yeah. Speaker 7: You I missed one. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 11: Wasn't this on the agenda in May and April? Speaker 1: I was not here in May, but I was here in April. Correct. Speaker 7: Okay. Speaker 11: All right. Thank you. Speaker 1: Sure. So we had a motion.
Did we have a second? There's no second. No second. Do we have, can, does someone want to suggest another motion? We need something? I, I think I, go ahead. Speaker 7: I'll make a motion to deny. Speaker 1: Okay. The petition. Do we have a second? Speaker 7: Second. Speaker 1: So all those in favor of a denial, raise their hand. 1, 2, 3. So, Speaker 7: Okay. Yeah, Speaker 1: We'll see you next time here. I'm gonna give you your plans back though. There you go. Thank you.
Okay, the next matter is, sorry. Continue public hearing for 47 High Street. An application for Robert and Mary Ziko for a finding per mass general law. Chapter 48, section six and zoning bylaws, section four B and five A. The applicant proposes to raise the existing single family dwelling and construct a new single family dwelling on the pre-existing ADA showing the plans to raise. Hello there. So I got a telephone call from your gentlemen, two gentlemen there. Yes. I got a telephone call from your attorney today. Howie got my cell phone number. I will never know, but in any case, huh?
No, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. He, he reports that he's in the hospital and he can't make it tonight. So. Well, we wish him well and he said that I, I told him that we'd be happy to continue the matter for you because of his absence. He then indicated to me that it was your preference to go forward in his absence. Yes, correct? Speaker 14: Yes. Thank you, Speaker 1: Chairman. That's Speaker 14: Correct. Yes. Okay. Speaker 1: So here we are, 47 High Street. I was at the first meeting. I missed the May meeting. And let's just refresh our memory here.
Can you, can you tell me what has been modified since the original application was submitted? I, I know that there was significant pushback from folks in the neighborhood about the size and that there was some pretty persuasive data that was provided to the board showing that it was significantly larger than most of the homes in the neighborhood. So can you tell me if anything's, what has changed about this project since it was
originally brought before the board? Speaker 14: Yes. My name's Alan Marks, Chris Todi, my partner on the project. And when we were here, there was a suggestion that we move the garage back at least a couple of feet so that it wasn't on plane with the home. Speaker 1: Yep. Speaker 14: We did that. And we intend on bringing the height of the building down by two feet. Speaker 1: You intended Speaker 14: We intend. Speaker 1: Intend, Speaker 14: Yeah. Speaker 1: And is that reflected on the plans
that were been submitted? Speaker 15: No, they haven't been amended to the shall height, but currently the, it's a 31.5 foot Speaker 1: Oh height. I'm gonna stop you just because I don't wanna be the bearer of bad tidings, but we can't, we can't look at a project. The plans don't reflect what you're gonna build and we can tweak 'em, right. We can say put the bulkhead in the back instead of on the side. Pretty easy to understand that you're gonna re you're gonna change the roof pitch and the height of this building, nobody has an opportunity
to look at a plan that shows that. Speaker 15: Okay. Speaker 1: I, I, I don't, that sounds harsh, but how, how is, how are the folks, if anyone's here, even to, to comment on it, how are they supposed to understand the nature of the project and how is the board supposed to understand what it is they're voting on? If the plans that you're submitting don't reflect what it is you want to build. Speaker 15: Okay. That was a, we can go forward based on the current plan. We, Speaker 1: I don't think that, I don't think that's a good idea. Okay. I mean, you can do that. But if the whole idea of this, this gap between sort
of proposal one and proposal two or three where we are today was to mollify the concerns of you in the neighborhood and now you're saying, eh, forget it. It's gonna go with what we had. Well, Speaker 15: We did, yeah. We had a, another iteration that wasn't gonna work for us. So then this is our third plan. This is different from the original plan we submitted, Speaker 1: But the third plan, Speaker 15: This is our third plan. Speaker 1: Yeah. But it does not reflect the reduction in the height. Speaker 15: No, it doesn't show, it does not currently show the amended height. Speaker 1: We can dig into this. Okay. Yep.
But, but if people come up here and say, you saw the last hearing, right? Yes. If these people come up here, and I don't know if there's coming, maybe there's nobody here, but there, people have raised significant concerns about the height of this structure. So I would be shocked if someone doesn't take that mic and say, nothing's changed. The heights hasn't gone down. If they say that, I can't tell you what the board's gonna do, but I can tell you what I'm gonna do and it's not gonna be to approve this
because Right. That the whole re people come in, they just have a plan. Like this is a great plan. The neighborhood goes, this is not a great plan. We say, okay, look, we're not gonna vote it down, we're not gonna approve it. We're gonna send you into the hallway. We'll give you 30 days to kind of work together to try to figure something out that everyone can live with. It works more projects than not get, get approved based on some sort of compromise. Right. So we did that. You came back and now you're gonna tell this neighborhood
we're not gonna change it. What do you think it's, what do you think is gonna happen? Speaker 14: Yeah, I understand your point. We should have had the architect draw the two feet lowering of the roof line. We've, we feel that we have provided some meaningful information to the ZBA. If I could just highlight that briefly. Yeah, we'll Speaker 1: Take that. We'll, we'll take that and, and then I'm gonna give you, well, okay, go ahead. Speaker 14: So we looked at High Street from number 17 High Street
to number 58 High Street. And we put a table together, we uploaded it to the portal. And a lot of the pushback was that this was going to be too large of a home for the neighborhood. The 12 homes that we looked at, they had an average lot size of 7,029 square feet and average living space above grade of 2,390 square feet. So the ratio of lot size to living space
is 2.94 feet. And then our lot is actually one of the larger lots on High Street. It's 10,000 square feet. We're proposing a 3000 square foot home above grade. And it came out to a lot to living space ratio of 3.34, which is significantly better than the average of those 12 homes. Of the 12 homes that I just enumerated
to you, five of them are multifamilies. There's a three family, three, two families and a duplex. And also pig. I don't know, is there a way to pull up the pictures that I submitted to the portal? Speaker 5: No, but they have them Speaker 14: All. Okay. So diagonally across the street on 50 High Street, there's a, a home with a very substantial footprint on an 11,100 square foot lot.
It's twenty four hundred and seventy five square feet. But it, it's a wide home. The home that we're proposing it, it meets all of the setback requirements, all lot area requirements. And we, we looked and saw that this exact home was built at 2 78 North Main Street in, in Natick on a slightly larger lot, but narrower lot. So the exact same home, we uploaded a picture of it to the portal.
It's 40 feet wide and the lot on North Main Street is 60 feet wide. Our lot is 66 feet wide. So incrementally wider. And with that, we meet all of the setback requirements. We, we don't need a variance, we just need a ruling. Speaker 1: Right. So just when, when people say, look, we've, we found the same house somewhere else. Everyone is idiosyncratic, you realize, right. So people come in, they want to, they propose a house
to be built on a particular lot. They need a rule rule, a section six finding, nobody comes, nobody cares. The board votes it through almost without a lot of debate, same house, different lot different neighbors, different neighborhood people come and they express concern. You gotta give that concern some meaning. Right? Right. That's the difference. I have no idea what lot you're talking about, what building you're talking about. And it's not relevant for purposes of discussion tonight because no one might have cared about that one.
This one I think we both know they care. Right. That's the difference. And that's because what we're, the board is trying to determine whether or not there's substantial detriment. We listen to the voices of the neighbors and the neighborhood and give that weight. Right. So what I don't want to do here is do this and do it again next week, next time. Just be any exercise of sort of efficiency here. I'm not gonna tell you what you have to do.
You wanna roll the dice on what you have here? You can. I don't know if that's the best idea because there's, I think there's people based on the writings and the submissions and the level of detail that's been, that has been submitted to this board suggest that there's grave concern. So, but I'm not gonna tell you what, what, you know, I can't cont I'm not gonna continue it above your objection. So, but what I do wanna do is I, I don't want to have everyone come up here and tell me all the terrible things 'cause we already know what those are.
And then have you come back here in a month and do it all again. So what do you wanna do? Speaker 14: Can I have Yes. 30 seconds with Chris? You may. Yeah. Speaker 7: I just Speaker 1: Think you can step outside if you want. 'cause you got microphones and stuff all Speaker 7: Over the place. Dave, do you need, do you need water? Speaker 1: No, I have my cough drops and I have my water. Speaker 7: You don't have these though? I do not. Curiously, strong, strong. I don't want, I'm just getting over a cold myself. Are you last couple weeks, Mr. Chair? Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. Speaker 7: If I promise not to mention any of the objections and all of those other things,
can you gimme a moment to speak? Thank you. Thank you. Brought em up for the whole class. We need them. Speaker 1: What do you say? Speaker 14: We will ask for a continuance. We'll go back to our architect. We'll show the two foot reduction in building height. Alright. Speaker 1: Fair enough. I appreciate that. So we're gonna give you some insights. Okay. One little taste so that you're, there's no surprises when you come back next week. We're gonna let one person come up and give their their thoughts
and then you just have to listen. We're not gonna react. You're gonna listen. This is for your benefit. And then you'll have some opportunity to do what it is you will do between now and when you come back, right? Yes. Just your name and address for the record. If you, Speaker 16: Glen Glader, 28 Reynolds Avenue. I live kind of behind this project, proposed project. So I did say that I wasn't going to repeat my objections from the last meeting when I spoke. I will say that those objections still stand because the plan has not substantially changed at all
except for the garage moving from one side of the building to the other and back two feet. Otherwise, the concern was not about the height of the roof by the way, but about the mass of the building, the size of the building. I, I'm not sure, to me, lowering the roof, two feet's not gonna do anything. Making the building smaller. So what I did wanna say is, is that the applicant did a fabulous job of putting together alternative plans that were not submitted to the ZBA
because for a reason that was not made clear to me. They were not viable plans. I don't know financially, I'm not sure why they were not viable plans. It was a smaller house. The garage was around the back. It was, oh, I want to use the word literally everything that the neighbors had asked for in a design to the point where I said to him, you know, you, you got rid of the finished basement because you were trying to reduce the square footage of the house. If you submit a plan with that building size,
I would support you asking the ZBA for a finished basement because the neighbors don't care if there's a basement under the building. We care if there's a giant behemoth of a building sitting amongst not giant behemoth buildings. So I, I do praise the applicant for, I mean, it took a little while, but I do praise the applicant for getting those plans. I'm sorry that they couldn't be submitted. I hope that you would reconsider that because I actually think that the na that I and the neighbors would love that building. So that's what I wanted to say.
Oh, the other suggestion that I'll like to make, even though it's none of my business, is that perhaps a, a denial with prejudice would make a lot of, without prejudice, excuse me, would make a lot of sense here to force the plans to be redone in a more substantial sort of way. Speaker 1: Okay, thank you. We're not gonna do that. 'cause we've already, we've already agreed on a continuance, but that's it. We're not gonna debate what we just heard. You heard it? And that's all Speaker 11: Just a quick interruption. I don't, I don't believe we did agree to a continuance.
Speaker 1: I believe we did. No, I don't think we, we Speaker 11: No, we did not. Speaker 1: No, no, we didn't vote yet. But I think that was the deal that I, that I made. The deal was accepted and I'm gonna stand by that. So I'm, we're gonna vote. Now you, you can vote however you actually you're gonna vote. Yeah. You're on this one. No you're not. No, you're not on this one. You're not on this one. Continu. Yeah. It's 'cause a continued hearing, but the board will vote. So I'd like to hear a motion to continue for until the July hearing, which is July 28th. 28th. So someone, someone I
Speaker 4: Move that we continue the hearing to July 28th. Speaker 1: Second. Second. We have a second And all those in favor? Okay. So we'll see you on July 28th. Okay. Okay. You might want to talk to these folks. Yeah, we got, thank you. Yeah, good enough. We have had meetings. Yeah. Alright. Excellent. Thank you so much. Okay, bye. The next matter is to continue public hearing for eight Liberty Street and application for eight Liberty Street, LLC for finding for Mass general law. Chapter 48, section six. And then it's zoning bylaw section four B and five A. The applicant proposes to raise the existing single family dwelling and construct a new single family dwelling on their preexisting non-conforming lot
as shown on the plan submitted eight liberty. So this has only been continued once, correct? Speaker 7: Once I have it from April. April we heard it. Oh no, it's been continued Speaker 1: Twice. Twice. Do we have anyone here on this eight Liberty? No. What do you know? Alright, we're we're going we're gonna table that one in case they show up. Okay. The next matter is a continued public hearing for 16 Westfield. An application for Hank Yin for finding per mass general law. Chapter 48, section six, natick zoning bylaws, section four B and five A.
The applicant proposes to raise the existing single family dwelling and construct the new single family dwelling on the preseason night formula as shown the plan submitted. Hi. Speaker 17: Hi. My name is Caroline Vienna and I'm with the design team and I have the engineer team here as well to talk about the site plan. And good evening and thank you again for continuing this process with us. Hang Speaker 1: On one second. Let me just, just get a load of what, where we are here. The original hearing was on May or April. Speaker 17: May, Speaker 1: May. Was your first ference? That's
Speaker 17: One. I have April. Sorry. Speaker 1: April. Speaker 17: This is the second. Yeah, this is the third time. Third Speaker 1: Time. Third time. Okay. Hold on a second. Let's see. Speaker 7: All right. Alright. Speaker 1: Alright. And and has something significant occurred? This is a trend between the, when the, you've been here and now. Speaker 17: Yes. The main thing, because of the lot shape, we swapped the plans between the 16 and the 79. So we could accomplish what the board requested us to be between 10 to 15% smaller on the footprint in the lot.
So we, we swapped the design, the houses are pretty much the same, this style. So we, we swapped the plants and we also made the garage smaller, the second floor smaller, the first floor smaller. So do you, Speaker 1: Is there a companion case to this? Is that Speaker 7: 79? 79 mil? Speaker 1: Yes. Oh, the next 1 79 mil. Oh, okay. Yeah, I got it. Speaker 7: Alright. Speaker 1: So this is a smaller house Speaker 7: All. Speaker 17: So that house, the 16 we, we make made it smaller by 18, almost 19% on the footprint
because that was what we were requested to do between 10 to 15. And we went above was almost 19 18 9, 1 to be more precise. Speaker 4: And we've got a revised zoning table showing the new dimensions, new setbacks, new footprint and that kind of stuff. Speaker 17: I have it here if you want. I can, yeah, Speaker 4: I just pulled it up. I just wanna make sure it was the most current one. Based on your new plan? Yes. Speaker 17: Okay. Yeah. Speaker 11: Excuse me. Are we talking about the plans that were submitted on June 18th? Speaker 17: Yes, correct. Okay. Thank you. Speaker 11: And there hasn't been anything today or no, since the 18th? No, Speaker 17: Thank you.
We did it last week. Everything was updated. The site plan, the, the floor plans. So the only thing, we did it here because of the footprint decreased that much. The attic that we were last time proposing to have it unfinished. We are having finished now, but the footprint on the house, on the site, it's much smaller now than it was before. Speaker 1: Alright, let's, let's just take a peek at the, at the chart for a minute and see if that's been updated. So 11,647. So the lot's too small.
The frontage is good, the depth is good. The front is nonconforming but will remain be made conforming side to the west is good side to the east is good. Are we on a corner? Is that what this is? Is this considered a corner? Speaker 17: No, the 79 is the corner. Speaker 1: So there's nothing here for the rear front. Two sides and no rear. So rear would be what? 30 feet? I know that. I know there's a setback plan. It's just not in the, it's not in the chart. Speaker 7: Is it not a corner lot? It
Speaker 17: Is. Oh yes. The 16th. Yes, correct. Yeah, Speaker 1: It is a corner left. Okay, so there's no there. So two fronts and two sides, right? Or hold on, Speaker 7: I don't know that it's a corner. Speaker 11: So just to be clear, you, you said that you're switching the house that was intended for 16 Westfield with 79 mil 16. And and these drawings you submitted on the 18th reflect that change? Correct. Speaker 17: Great, thank you. If you compare from last month, you will see the change. So Speaker 7: Side, that's side, that's right.
Where's the rear Speaker 1: Opposite the front, Speaker 7: Right? It's side ands here. And the side that ends here. Where's the rear? Speaker 1: That point? Speaker 7: Yeah. So you draw a circle around that point. Speaker 1: So there's a setback plan, but can we just get the, can we just get the setback? Is it 30 feet in the rear? Speaker 4: The requirement for what are We are single. Speaker 1: It's says single residence Speaker 7: Setback, 25 Speaker 1: Feet. 25. Okay. Speaker 7: Easily. Yep. Speaker 4: Alright. We're in residential A RSA. Yes. Speaker 1: So I'm a little confused by this
setback plan, but let's see. Proposed plot plan. Speaker 7: And Speaker 17: You have the site plan from reham, the engineering. Say it again? Do you have the site plan from Speaker 1: Sp? Yes. Yep. I'm looking at the one dated updated six 16. Yeah. And I, I'm looking here, I see the, I'm looking for the rear 25 foot set back from the rear. Yeah, Speaker 7: But the 79 is the corner lot Speaker 1: And I see Speaker 7: Six corner Speaker 1: Lawn 13th at the, for setback. It's a little tricky because it's, Speaker 7: We didn't use a rear Speaker 1: Setback.
Did, did the commissioner's letter mention the rear setback? Speaker 4: He just had it up Speaker 7: Sit inside to Speaker 1: Side because it's, it's like a, it's like the shape of a baseball diamond. Speaker 7: Yes. Speaker 1: It's got left field, right field. And an outfield Speaker 4: Doesn't mention it. Speaker 7: Doesn't mention, it doesn't mention he rarely puts specific things like that in his letter. I would, I Speaker 4: Would do your point theory and just draw a circle. Speaker 1: Well is this a scalable plan? Like it would be from like what, like here to here? Speaker 18: Yeah, I would take a circumference
and draw whatever, 25 foot, Speaker 1: You know, using this as the, as the center point. Yep. Speaker 18: Not your 25 foot setback. Speaker 1: Yeah. And do you see that? You see what we're doing over here? No. Okay. So, so just take a look at this a second. If this is the, if this is the front right? And this is the side and this is the other side, then this is the rear right? Building Speaker 18: A lot here against from the house. Speaker 1: Then, then, then, then what you're doing here is you,
you're saying the rear is to the side. You see what I'm saying? Or is this the side? Speaker 18: They've got the side set back here. Side set back there. But I think what they need is to put an arc in here around that point 25 feet gonna be somewhere in there. So it's not a corner. Mine again saying it is a corner or Speaker 1: It's not a corner. It's definitely not a, the Speaker 18: Front's on one street. Yeah. Speaker 1: Okay. 12 then is this the front? Speaker 18: But they say 25. Speaker 1: This the side, the Speaker 18: Rear Speaker 1: And this the rear. Speaker 18: Can you drive? It's the closest point.
I think it's, I don't have, yeah, I think that's, these are all sides. No, Speaker 1: This is the lot. The lot looks like this. Speaker 18: It's a pie. Yeah, Speaker 1: Right. That's, that's the lot. So if I just showed you that and I said Speaker 18: You put a building, Speaker 1: Put it anywhere, anywhere, anywhere. Where, what, where, where are they? Hold on. We're just trying to sort something out here. Speaker 18: Sense. That would be this or this, this. Yeah. What typically go comm rear, you have to, yeah, I think that that's what I would say it. Yeah. Speaker 1: The shortest distance from the boundary line of a street
or a lot line to the wall of a building facing their Speaker 18: Setback Speaker 1: Side yard. A yard between a building and a sideline of a lot extending from the front yard to the rear yard. Speaker 18: We not Speaker 1: Yard rear. Speaker 18: Is there a rear? Is there a rear yard? Yes. Speaker 1: Oh, did you see one Speaker 18: Where Speaker 1: Yard is not in here? Speaker 7: Where Speaker 1: You see a yard across the width, the line between the rear line of Speaker 7: The building and the rear line of the wall? Well, I don't know.
Speaker 8: I think this, this is the rear Speaker 7: Right. Is Speaker 8: The same. And you wouldn't give them the most generous. You'd give them the most restrictive Speaker 1: That, that's where the code says. That's right. So is is this the, is that the side Speaker 7: Only Speaker 1: That the other side, Speaker 8: We couldn't get a rear Speaker 1: That the front, that the rear. Speaker 8: I would say yes. Yes. That makes sense, right? I think here over, you would take the, you would take that. I think you would take that. Speaker 7: Anything about when you have an arc in the, that a straight line. Speaker 8: And so what, what is that distance? It's clearly not
Speaker 1: 25. No, no, but but what's the existing? Speaker 7: So see the page five has the existing Speaker 1: Come here. I just want, I wanna show you what we're struggling with now. Now I've been quite a mess of this right now. See this, if this, you're not a corner lot. You're a, you're a Speaker 19: That's what I'm trying to explain that. 'cause we have a 79 new street on the side. Speaker 1: Hold, hold, hold on, hold on. Let, let, let's look, let's look at the, let's look at the, we're gonna show you something here. Which, Speaker 7: Which the map. Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
So that's, that's the lot right there. Okay. A corner lot has faces. Two streets, right? Yeah, we know it. Main street and Smith Street. This is one street. That's it. It's got a curve. Speaker 19: Yeah, but it's not a corner lock. I know that. Speaker 1: Okay. That's what we were just talking about. Yeah, Speaker 19: I tried to tell them. Speaker 1: Oh, okay. You're not a corner lock. Yeah, we're not. So now if you're not a corner lot, you need the front two sides in a rear. Yeah. Right. So we're trying to figure out with a, with a lot that doesn't have the traditional square shape. What, Speaker 19: So basically can I, can I Speaker 7: Show you? Hold
Speaker 1: On, hold on, hold on one second Speaker 19: Here. Speaker 1: Yeah. Hold on one, hold on one second. Speaker 7: So Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. Yeah, because a corner lot is defined as a building lot. A budding on two or more streets at their intersection. So there's no intersection here. Yes. Okay. So So that leaves us trying Where do you go Speaker 18: Here? Speaker 20: Oh, they say to sit, sit down. Speaker 1: Oh no, it's okay. That's, he's the microphone. Speaker 18: Yeah. So, so Speaker 1: Everyone we're, what we're trying to do is we're trying to sort out where the dimensions should be measured from and to, right? And I think
Speaker 20: So can I show you my, with my hand? Speaker 1: Let me show you what I think they should be and then we can discuss it. I think, I think that Speaker 20: Front is Speaker 1: The front. I think that Speaker 20: Side is the side that frontage Speaker 1: That is the other side. Speaker 20: Yeah. But we have, yeah. And Speaker 1: Then I think that's the rear Speaker 20: We, yeah. Correct. Speaker 1: So if we're right about those, I think these are conforming, conforming, conforming. But this is nonconforming 'cause this is, I think this course is 13 three, Speaker 20: Minimum was 12 on the back, right? Speaker 1: No, 25. 25. Speaker 20: 25. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's 25. 25. But, but, but hold on that not the end of the story because if the existing structure, it's, you can see Speaker 18: It in, Speaker 1: Yeah, it's there. I just, I'm having trouble picking up what the setback was to this line on the existing building. Is it, is that the corner? Speaker 18: It's kind of behind this note unfortunately, but Speaker 17: It's on the page at five. If you flip, we have it there. This is the existing, yes. Speaker 1: Ah, Speaker 18: Away. Speaker 1: So they're closer. The new, oh look at that. It's 24.3.
Oh my gosh. Okay. Okay. You're good. Speaker 20: I'm good, right? Speaker 1: Yeah. Well with that, Speaker 18: With that, Speaker 1: With that with the hair. Shiny shin and shin. Okay, so see that that's existing. There's a setback. 24 3. Speaker 18: Yeah. Speaker 1: 25. Speaker 18: What does that mean? That's a side here. It's the side. Look, Speaker 1: We just decided Speaker 18: That's not the side because it runs from the street. You wanna bring a chair? Speaker 1: The way this lots, the way this building sits on Speaker 18: The determination of sides and fronts and rears has nothing to do with the house. It's defined all by the lot in the street. Speaker 1: So when you look at that, what do you think?
What, what do you think? Speaker 18: Sorry. 12, 25 feet. Speaker 1: So on here, on here, okay, hold on. If you're right then on here, go ahead. Let's place that you did it upside down for me. But place that on here. Just point, point, point to where you can, that's Speaker 18: The rear Speaker 1: To there Speaker 18: To you draw a circle 25 Speaker 1: Feet. Yeah, well it's way more than Speaker 18: 25 feet. Well you measure the closest point of the structure to the rear. Speaker 1: So, so, so rear rear is, Speaker 18: It looks like it's more than 25. Yeah. No Speaker 1: Un question. Yeah.
Speaker 18: Okay. Yeah. Speaker 1: So gimme this side. Speaker 18: Anything off this, this line here. They got this correct. This is the side. Okay. And whatever that Speaker 1: Is, it's, it's over 12. Speaker 18: Yeah. Speaker 1: Side. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Now the other side. Speaker 18: Same. So it's more than four. This one? Yeah. Speaker 1: Times two. Yep. Rear Speaker 18: Did Rear. Speaker 1: Okay. I'm sorry. Front. Speaker 18: Yeah, that'ss more than whatever it is. 30. Speaker 1: 30. Alright. Under either analysis it's good. Yeah. Okay. It's not easy. Speaker 21: It was not easy for us to begin to pay Speaker 18: My house a lot.
You won't. A lot of your head will explode. What's that? That took a lot of brain power. Speaker 1: Yeah, it did. Okay. So now, so however defined, we defined it in two ways. Both make, excuse me, that both make sense and they're conforming or they section six or, or they're off by a foot, in which case we can address it by section six if necessary. The building coverage is okay. It's okay. Alright. All right. Okay. Does anyone here have questions?
Speaker 7: No. Speaker 1: Does anybody? Yes ma'am. Speaker 21: Good evening. My name is Sherry Brass and I live at 77 Mill Street. I've lived there for over 30 years and we're abut those to both 79 mill and West Westfield. The board is already, I believe, addressed my initial concerns so I'm not gonna go over those again. To my understanding, it's going to be put into some type of ruling and there's gonna be some type I'm,
I'm not a professional in this area, so whatever, some type of amendment for that. Speaker 1: But let, let's make sure we don't miss what that is. Speaker 21: Okay. Speaker 1: What is it? Speaker 21: So they agreed there, well there was an agreement that the builder will build a fence before the demolition that's congruent with other new builds in the neighborhood. Speaker 1: Yeah, you got that. Okay, got it. Speaker 21: Okay. The other thing about, I mean the other piece has to do with the health department because you know, is there asbestos?
I mean all these old houses have that, not us. So that's not you guys. Nope. So I won't go there. Alright. Okay. We have, so my other concerns at this point as similar to some of the others that I've spoken is, you know, the footprint in both 79 and Westfield were supposed to be made 16 Westfield were supposed to be made substantially smaller. Again, there are huge houses for really,
really small lots. And I know like it was confusing for the board to understand what, you know, 17, 16 Westfield was about. So you can imagine what that's like for me. They're saying they switched everything around the idea. I'll just say overall I could go into square footage of my house versus other houses probably are all familiar with the Pellum capes maybe in that neighborhood near Kennedy on Mill Street. But this is, you know, substantially bigger than other houses.
Even ones that have added on. It's just not, you know, being that big. I think the new square footage is 3,800 for mill and 3,900 for Westfield. And so my concern is that that're still too big. And then my second concern is how can I be assured that these two house builds at the same time aren't going to have a bad effect of water running onto my
property during and after the builds. So those are my concerns. I do have a home business. We do have someone in the house who has serious illness. So we've already talked about hopefully they're gonna try and mitigate as much as one could during construction. But I am concerned about the sizes on these lots. And just so you can picture it, Westfield goes in a half circle and the two houses that he owns, there's one that isn't on the corner and then there's one directly on the corner. So also when we come out onto Mill Street from our house,
that house could also be obstructing our view. And I know that you guys aren't, your issue isn't safety, but I just wanted to make sure that that was on the record. Thank you for listening. Appreciate Speaker 1: It. Thank you. Anybody else wish to be, oh, hold on one second. Anybody else wish to be heard on this project? Okay. Did did you wanna say something? Yeah, I want Speaker 7: To say something. Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 20: Hi, my name is Gustave Vera. I'm the builder there about her concern.
I already talked to her on the last meeting about the fence. So I just wanna clarify about the fence. We gonna build the fence before any further move before demolition over there, after we get the approval on the permit. And we're gonna put a tarper on the fence that's gonna be at the temporary fence after finish. We're gonna do a new fence, like a, a permanent fence after we finish the house. And so I forgot Speaker 21: To say I asked for it to be six, at Speaker 20: Least six? No, yeah, we're gonna do at least six foot. Yeah, minimal. And about the house on 79.
'cause she's talking about that one right now. Don't don't. Okay. Can we Speaker 7: Talking about Westfield? Speaker 20: Okay. Yeah. Speaker 1: Just 'cause we don't want to want keep the record clean. Speaker 20: Okay. All right. That's it. Speaker 1: Okay, thank you. No Speaker 20: Problem. Speaker 1: Okay, does the board have any questions? Speaker 4: I had one about, sorry, drainage and runoff. Was there infiltration system for any roof Speaker 22: Runoff? Yeah, it's in the civil plan. It's the next page after the Speaker 7: Page Speaker 22: Two, sheet two, Speaker 4: Two on. Oh okay. And, but I was somehow I found the stormwater report and it seemed to indicate that pre
and post runoff is almost the same. Even with the infiltration. It goes from two year storm goes from 1,152 to 1079 cubic feet runoff. That didn't Speaker 22: What we do, we do have a reduction. Speaker 4: Yeah. Speaker 22: Think that's what the, Speaker 4: About 80 cubic feet reduced in a two year storm. Speaker 22: I can't quote the engineering, but I think once we get a runoff, like that's the aim is to get a reduction in runoff. Speaker 4: Okay. It just didn't seem like it was a
very big reduction. Usually I see bigger numbers than that for an infiltration system. I think the Speaker 22: Two year and a lot of the two years, it's very small. If you go up in the years, it's, it gets bigger. Speaker 4: Right. Okay. Okay. It's a Speaker 1: Reduction by 73 Speaker 7: Cf. Speaker 4: Okay. I mean it, I guess what I take away from that chart is that there is no increase in runoff post construction and there's a slight decrease compared to existing conditions. Yeah, fair enough. Speaker 1: Okay. Anybody else have any thoughts here? Why Speaker 8: This Yeah. Will give one a Speaker 1: Lot of thought. A lot of house.
Speaker 8: A lot of house. So from, from where I sit, from what I've heard and from what I've seen that there's been, there's been an attempt clearly to reduce the size, the square footage for me. I put more stock in what I'm still hearing from the neighbors, which is yes, it's been a, a move in the right direction, but still too big. I've driven that neighborhood several times. So it's just a, a hint of, of what Speaker 7: I'm thinking about. Speaker 1: I mean, today has been an unusual day.
These projects have a lot of similarities across the board Speaker 7: And not progress. Speaker 1: Say it again? Not Speaker 7: Over progress. Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is just too much house for this loss. It's, I, I mean I look at the, I look at the lot, I look at the house, I look at the neighborhood, I listen to the concerns of the neighbors. Speaker 7: It's a lot of house. Speaker 17: We asked for clear like help and the design of less time. And what we got was a number between 10 to 15 and we did more than that.
So if the house is still big, is that some feedback to help us because we really tried this time. We, like, we switched the houses, we made it smaller, we made the garage smaller and we made the living area in the first floor much smaller. So that's what I, we wanna, we don't wanna be stuck, right? Sure. We wanna keep moving. Sure. Speaker 8: And I think, and I, you know, not having, you heard David talk about the FAR, so we don't have that. And so it does become this gray area, Speaker 7: Which is where we're talking Speaker 17: About, Speaker 8: I know a lot of, a lot of discussion
because we don't have an FR again for me, I'm, I'm taking the weight of the neighborhood and so potentially if I were in your situation, it's, I think it sort of begins with more talks with the neighbors if there, if there was a path forward. So as far as how big, how small. Speaker 17: Alright, Speaker 8: Just a suggestion. Speaker 4: Well I, I think I'm a little bit disappointed that we gave some direction to the applicant last time to reduce the size of the building by, you know, 10
to 15 I think or whatever the number was we gave you. And it seems like you did that. Yeah. And now we were, we were asking for more. I, that doesn't seem very fair to me. Speaker 8: I missed the last meeting. Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and yeah Speaker 17: And all the, all the other comments too, like make the master smaller, make we made the garages smaller, like all the other comments we took into consideration. Like we took very good care of the notes. That's why I'm asking like if we are still missing, what is this missing in the size and for the, for the room sizes. If you see the house is just in the first floor
and the second floor, the rooms are not that big anymore as living room, as dining room. We made the garage much smaller. Just one door garage now for say two car garage, but two car smaller cars, way smaller. So Speaker 8: It's, it, I'm just gonna, not devil's advocate, but just to give more data for you guys. 'cause I understand what you're saying and I understand what Jason's saying as well. And I'm not sure, you know, if it was me who said the 10 to 15% or not. My point is, I think those sort of kind of explanations and discussions and sort of walkthrough of, hey look at these bedrooms, they are, you know,
of a reasonable size, et cetera. But here we are, we are larger here, whatever. I think those are discussions that you would need to have with the neighbors, right? I mean, again, I kind of come back to the point where I really take a lot of stock in these cases when it's, when it's close, it's, you know, but at the same time it, it still is almost a 4,000 square foot house on a fairly small lot. Speaker 4: How many, I forget how many butters did we hear from? We heard from Sherry, I forget your last name. We hear every Speaker 8: Meeting. Speaker 4: I'm sorry. Yes. Speaker 8: And I believe there were more before. Speaker 17: No, no, just her. Speaker 4: No, just one of butter. Speaker 8: Okay. Speaker 4: And I,
Sherry I don't wanna put words in her mouth, but what I heard was she wants to have a fence installed before demolition and to work with the board of health on, or the dust managing dust. I think there was some requirement to if they, if they can direct you to water it down as they're demolishing it, things like that. To reduce noise and reduce dust. I heard that at Speaker 21: And then I raised my new concerns during this meeting. So to that point I had new concerns. I I stated them I think pretty clearly at this meeting.
So there are additional concerns to the original concerns, Speaker 17: But this was not discussed before to us. No, no other neighbor complained about the size Speaker 19: Or do they, Speaker 1: That new concern today was size, massing size. Speaker 21: I mean, I think I did mention something about the, I mean I, I'm not like watching video feedback. I think I did mention something about they were gonna have a three car garage and I did mention something about the size. I don't recall if I said anything about the water piece
of things, but I'm raising that now. I mean this is the, their third time here and I'm learning this is not my area of expertise, so forgive me for not bringing up last time. But these are things that I'm becoming aware of as I'm learning more about these Speaker 1: Issues. Yeah. So I think they, I think we've got most of your concerns addressed, but the one that, the one that sticks out and, and, and forgive me, I thought there were more objections than just yours
about the total massing here. Right? Are you expressing concern about the size of this house or not? Speaker 21: Yes. Speaker 1: And what's your concern? Speaker 21: My concern is that when you look at the square footage compared to the neighborhood, that it's, it's just not, it doesn't align with the character of the neighborhood. And I know maybe last time somebody was giving, you know, you need to, they got a little bit of guidance but I also know that it was said that it needed to be significantly smaller.
And that's all I have to say. Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. Speaker 4: I guess I might have a follow up question for the abut, so you say that the square footage of the proposed is out of character with the neighborhood? Was that what I heard? Speaker 21: Well, yeah, like my house is their, their house that they're gonna build and the houses around my house, I can go through the statistics, but you guys can look them up yourselves basically. It's, it's a lot larger. Speaker 4: Right. But my question is, how is
that substantial providing a a or giving a substantial detriment to you or to the neighborhood? How is that? I mean, I I think we all agree the house is larger. How is that detrimental to you? Speaker 21: Because it's not within the character of the neighborhood. Like I understand there's gonna be new builds in the neighborhood, but this is totally like, so much bigger than the rest of the houses in the neighborhood. Even ones that are expand are, have done like additions to them.
So it's just not congruent. And like I said, it was said, I don't know about the footage, but it was said in the last meeting that it needed to be significantly smaller. I'm not sure that it being, you know, two and a half times the size of some of the hold. Speaker 1: Can you just pull the mic a little closer? Speaker 21: Most of the houses in the neighborhood, I won't belabor the point. It's, I i it is what it is. But thank you for listening. Speaker 1: Okay. Thanks very much. Thank you. Speaker 8: I I mean I feel like we have differing opinions on the board and, and I think, you know, that would be solved by a vote.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we can do that. Or Allen, do you want to tip your hand at all here or no, I'm, I'm not in the mood to continue this further. You wanna go to a vote Ari? I sort of, I think I echo a lot of what Andy said and I'd also be inclined to have a vote as well. Pro Allen has said a vote, it shall be motion. Speaker 4: I would move that we approve the project based on our finding that it's not substantially more detrimental to the neighborhood provided that provided that it's built in substantial conformance of plan submitted than any recommendations
or requirements from town departments who submitted letters to the board with a condition that the applicant construct a six foot tall fence around the site before demolition begins. Maintain that fence during construction and replace it after completion with a permanent fence of at least six feet. Speaker 1: Second. I'm gonna second I can do that. Can I second? All those in favor? Does not pass. The opposed
we don't need it. It's maybe Speaker 4: Somebody, it's abstained. Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. They Speaker 4: Only got two votes anyway. Yeah. Speaker 1: So two votes for, and I take it, do we go to the next step? We never do. What's that? Oh, are those opposed? Yeah, I guess it's, it's pretty obvious against, there you go. So it does not pass. Now you can redesign it and come back, but you can't bring the same project back for two years. Two years. It's gotta be a different project.
Okay, so that was done. But you're staying 'cause you're, you're up next on the next project which is Speaker 7: 79 mil. Speaker 1: 79 mil. An application for Hank Yin for a finding for mass general laws Chapter 48, section six and oh I'm sorry is this the 14 mill is being continued? I didn't, I didn't see that note. Yes. If anyone's here on 14 Mill Street, I'm sorry I'm jumping ahead. That matter's gonna be continued by request. So if you're here on 14 Mill Street, I apologize that case is being continued by by request.
Speaker 4: We need to vote on that. No, Speaker 1: It will be, I'm just giving people the heads up so that if they're here waiting to, to speak on that, they don't need to wait. Sorry. Back to where we stood. Continuing public hearing for seven nine Mill Street application for Hank and for a finding for mass general laws chapter 48, section six and then zoning bylaw section four B and five A. The applicant proposed to raise the existing single family dwelling and construct a new single family dwelling on the preexisting, not allowed to settle the plan submitted 79 Mill Street. Okay, now let, I'm going to do this thing. Speaker 7: Okay, Speaker 1: So these are new plans, correct?
Speaker 17: Yes, this is the swap from the 16th. Okay. And this, but we also reduced the house. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 17: As we were asked and this house was reduced by 11, a little bit over 11% on the overall footprint on the first floor. Speaker 1: Okay. Now let's take a look and see, can you bring up the map on this just so we can see where it is in space? This is a corner lot. Speaker 17: This is, yes, that's Speaker 4: Right around the corner from number 16 that we just saw. Speaker 1: Okay, so it's it. Okay so this one I just wanna make sure
that the setbacks were done properly. Yeah, Speaker 7: That's, there is a corner lot. Speaker 1: Right. Okay, so Speaker 7: Two Speaker 1: Fronts, two sides. Yep. Speaker 7: Alright. Speaker 1: This is a front, this is a front, this is a side, this is a side, right? Speaker 7: Correct. Even though I guess I'm showing you Speaker 1: But that, but that, that's the way it's gotta be done. So 30 feet here? Yep. And Speaker 7: Three. Three. Speaker 1: Good. 12 here. Speaker 7: 20
Speaker 1: And 15. Okay. Alright, so those are good. So you're short on lot area, you're good on frontage, you're good on the, the yards, the sides stories, the coverage and the height. Yep. Okay, so this is again, that's a lot issue. So you shrunk the thing down and here we are. And is anyone here other than who, who else was
to be heard on this project? You same thing, right? Exactly the same thing. Okay. Speaker 7: Okay. Water on the sides. Speaker 17: The water runoff in the size. Speaker 1: Okay, so the water runoff, I don't know if I addressed that in the last one. You may have heard me say it earlier that that's a board of health issue. That the board of health requires that the final grades be done in such a way to assure no runoff onto the abutting properties. No. Okay. So that's the protection for that. Is there infiltration on this one? Yes. So there's also infiltration. Is there gonna be a net improvement? Gimme
Speaker 4: A sec. That's a thousand page document. Oh baby, no, 89 pages. It's in the summary on the tarter floor page. I think bingo. Ah, much better. Yes. Much more reduction. Speaker 17: If you see this is a corner lot and even though it's a corner lot, we were able to be farther from the setbacks because we swapped the designs. Speaker 1: Yep. Speaker 4: I think I'm looking back at some of my notes from a prior hearing and we had concerns about removing a retaining wall, if these notes are correct, moving a detention basin.
I think this was 79 mil. And we also wanted to confirm that the height calculation was done correctly according to the, and then Speaker 7: That was for too less like Speaker 4: Was it? Okay. Okay. Because I Speaker 7: Don't think there's a wall Speaker 17: On No, I think Speaker 4: A hose wall, but it's not major. It's okay. Speaker 17: Yeah, I think that there was a question in the first one, but then we, we updated plans and we even lowered the roof to accommodate and be Speaker 7: Below Speaker 17: The maximum with the requirements. Speaker 4: Yeah. Okay. Speaker 17: This project we even have, instead of across space, we have a slab to keep the building even lower the,
the more than you can. Speaker 1: Okay. Oh, and I see the, I see the call tag or the, the retention basins in the, in the front yard. Speaker 4: Maybe you could go into a little more detail about how you reduced the footprint or the Yes. Square footage. Yeah, I highlight that. Speaker 17: So again, we took into consideration the 10 minimum to 15% in the configuration size and proportions. That's why we swapped the plans between the, the addresses 16 Westfield and the seven nine mill street.
And that also helped us with the improvement in the foundation that now it's a slab. We also, we got back the attic storage area just to try to compensate the, the square footage finished that we had cut it in the first floor or second floor and, and the garage that was a concern last time is now being reduced by 33% in size. So we, we did took that into consideration as well. We, we made the completely mud room, dining room,
living room, first floor, all adjust to accommodate a smaller footprint. And we also reduced some area and bathrooms on the second floor to become a smaller layout on the second floor as well because it was also another concern. And, and again this was a, a demolition of existing single family and this is all, again, a new single family. We're not asking for any single family with a ADU or anything. It is just one single family.
And the front set setback required, it was supposed to be required 30 and we have a 33 in the side yards. It's required 12 and we have 20 in the west and 15 in the east. So the also the 25% building coverage required, we are below that. We are 19.96. So we did based on proportion, how the, We took into consideration how much smaller was the lot for the 15 required
and the 11, 11,000 that we have, we took those percentage also in consideration for the design. So that's, that's why we decided to swap the houses and make all the changes. Speaker 1: Anybody have any thoughts here? Questions, comments? Yeah. Speaker 11: Okay. So I hope I got this right because of the switch, but I'm pretty sure I you'll tell me if I'm not. Yeah. So retaining walls are going in on this one, right? Speaker 17: Yeah. Speaker 11: Yes. Can you explain to me what the purpose is and what any potential issues might be with installing that?
I understand it creates maintenance issues. I'm not sure since I'm new to this of course. What other engineering or actually this might be something other people on the board could also answer, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Speaker 22: Well, we began with a retain wall on the left side of the lot. The reason for that was we needed to lift the grades on 16 Westfield to get significant cover on the infiltration system. So that was the main reason. And then with that, with the change in the billing height, have them to be measured from the center of the road
to reduce the grades slightly around the house. We decided to put a small retain of wall the whole way around to, to lower the grades, to lower the house slightly. Speaker 11: Okay. The other thing is, am I correct that the driveway is including a curb cut of 19 feet? Is it 19 feet wide? Yep. So why does it need a driveway that's 19 feet wide? Speaker 22: Well it doesn't but it's quite hard with the shape
of the lot, it was quite hard to come in at 90 degrees to the lot line and then have a significant opening to the garage. Okay. So that's why we went with 19. But it can be reduced if, if needed. Speaker 11: Yeah, I I just have concerns generally about widening driveways projects all over town because even if there isn't a sidewalk, it is the pedestrian right away and there is no way to maintain the kind of protection for children bicyclists, anybody compared to having a narrower driveway. And it also means it's harder for people to park.
'cause obviously you can never park in front of that driveway again for street parking. So thank you. Speaker 23: Anybody else? I I can just say that I, I certainly appreciate the, the sort of the, the work into sort of trying to accommodate our comments from the last meeting and whatnot. I certainly know it's a lot of work. It, it just feels to me like a lot of house right? Still 38, almost four, you know, 3,900 square feet on a lot that size. It's comparable, you know, it, it's the, the previous one
that we had just sort of voted on. It's got a very, very similar feel and a very similar sizing and massing on the lot. And so I just to give you a sense of where I'm coming from, that's just where I feel, I just wanted you to know, you know, where I'm coming from. And also just to say that I certainly do appreciate the work you put into, especially in the houses and trying to make it work. It's just, i I don't know if it reaches the level for me of being appropriate for that lot. Speaker 17: If we reduce the etiquette square footage, would that make any significant impact? Speaker 23: If you look at a function of like the size
of the building versus the size of the lot? Yes. If the square footage were to be reduced, I suppose in a meaningful way, I would reconsider sort of my, you know, my thoughts on this, but I think it all comes down to you have an 11,000 square foot lot with a 4,000 square, roughly 4,000 square foot house and that's just a, a large, there's, you know, that's almost 30, almost 35% right. Of the total square footage of the lot. So it's a lot. And I guess that's what I'm saying, but I think, I dunno what the exact correlation is to square footage
versus the massing of the house. But, you know, that's just where I'm coming from. Speaker 24: I also would like to thank the developer and their efforts for reducing their efforts to, 11% of it is, for me, it is still significantly out of scale to the neighborhood road. Speaker 7: Can I speak on Speaker 20: Again, my name is Gusta Vera. I'm the builder on the 79 mil street and I'm part of the project we're doing. I have a partner on it. So I have a question since we, I just, I need to understand that. So, because I don't understand. So since we are inside the setbacks
and we are on the chart, we approve everything's under like by law. So what is the size of the house for 11,000 square footage? What size I have to make the plans to build the house over there? Speaker 23: That's a good Speaker 1: Question. Speaker 20: That's by law. My question is by law there's Speaker 1: No law. There's no law there, there's no, there's no law in the case. Yeah. That this is the, what Andy described as the sort of gray area. You know, if, if Ms. Brass is it, yes, Speaker 20: Mrs. Speaker 1: Bras, Mrs. Brass, I apologize if Mrs.
Brass weren't here saying she's concerned about the size. You know, it's a, it would be a little bit easier to, to approve it, but I would still have some trepidation. And I, my, as this board knows, my, my sort of history is, is is to approve these things, but I just get a sense that I just sort of walk through that neighborhood, you know, and is like little house, little house, little house.
Boom. Big big big house. Big house. Not just bigger house. Big th like we're talking almost 4,000 square feet of house on, on a substandard lot. That's the problem. That's the problem. And it, it, it has like this, it it's got a, it, it it's got a, a massing to it that gives it this stature of bulk. That's the way I see it. Speaker 20: So on the same street, I don't want to, I don't, I like,
I hate compare like, compare things, but on the same street, Westfield, like a three or four house down down the street is a big house there. It's a brand new big house there. So I don't understand h don't, don't get me wrong, okay, I just wanna understand what's going on, you know, Speaker 1: It's okay, we can take it. Speaker 20: So, so I, I don't understand. So that's why I ask by law, what's the size, you know, no law, Speaker 1: It's like what you're trying to do here is satisfy Ms. Brass, Mrs Brass
and satisfied this board that what you're doing there is not substantially more detrimental than Speaker 20: Yeah, that's why I'm asking what size I have to build. That's why I want a suggestion. Yeah. Speaker 1: Oh, I see, okay. You know what Speaker 20: I mean? Yeah, Speaker 1: Sure. Speaker 20: So 2000 square footage, Speaker 1: You know, you can, you, you, you cannot, we have to see it. But I, I have a very strong sense that a 2000 square foot house will get approved very quickly. I know that's not what you want to build. Speaker 20: Yeah, of course. Speaker 1: But, but I, I'd have to, I don't know. I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna give you a number and say if you come in here with a house that's 3,400 square feet, it's gonna get approved
because you have to, we have to see it. Right. You have to see that on the plan. You got some guidance the last time you were here and apparently we steered you wrong. Part of that is because I'm here now and I wasn't here last time and for that I apologize, but, Speaker 20: So my question is, I didn't have opportunity to talk about the 16 Westfield. You guys denied my plans what I was asking for, it's next another meeting. So that way I can, we can address, I don't wanna like lose my time. So I don't want to get like re reject like I get it on the other house.
So that's why I'm trying to, because I wanna address this. So we, I we invest money on it, you know, we put a lot of money there so I get you. So, you know what I mean? I, I understand the neighbors. We can talk to the neighbors, we can try to address everything. So I don't want to get denied before Speaker 1: It's not, the board was not inclined to continue the last team. They might be on this one. I don't know. You sound like you're, you're, you're, you're in a, you want a deal, you want to meet, you want a deal and you, and, and, and something might come of that that makes this thing more palatable Yes. For everybody. With that said, is this board inclined
to allow them that opportunity? I am. Yes, you are. Two more are we don't need you. So Speaker 25: Heartbreaking. Speaker 1: Well, it's just the truth, the numbers, the, the numbers aren't, are doesn't I am Speaker 25: Reluctantly Speaker 1: Inclined. Yeah. It, it doesn't matter 'cause you already got four inclined. So I mean that was not meant to be offensive. It just is what it is. Thanks Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that. I appreciate the evaluation forever in your favor. Okay, so, so let's do that. Let's do that. Okay. And Mrs. Brass has an open mind.
The development team has an open mind. Go ahead. Speaker 25: I just have a question when I know the retainer wall was gonna be over on Vest field, and then I think someone said it's gonna be all around. No, so if you look at my house, we need you on the microphone. Oh. Speaker 20: Oh, sorry. Speaker 1: Yeah. Thank you. Sorry Speaker 25: About that. Speaker 21: If you look at my house, is the retainer wall going to be on Westfield still? Speaker 25: He's the engineer. Speaker 1: He can, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what, because this is, this is, this is the kind of horse trading you might be doing. We're gonna let you do it together, but not here. Okay.
Okay. Alright. I think that's fair. That's fine. Why don't, why don't we hear, I have a motion Speaker 4: Move to continue this hearing to our July 28th, 28th meeting. Speaker 1: Second. All those in favor? Yes. Okay. Thanks very much. We'll see you on July 28th. The next matter up is a new hearing for eight Arlington Circle and application for high end homes chair. Yes. Speaker 25: Motion Speaker 1: 14. Oh yes. Yep. Motion to continue. 14 mill, Speaker 4: Move to continue. 14 mill hearing to our July 28th meeting. Speaker 1: Second. Second. All those in favor? Yep. Continue.
Thank you gentlemen. How you been? Good. You Speaker 26: Can't complain Speaker 1: Yet. It's a, it's a bloodbath here tonight. Speaker 26: Hey, you know I've been in through a few of them. Speaker 1: Eight Arlington Circle an application for high end homes for afin under mass General Laws 40 a section six and DIC zoning bylaws four B and five A. The applicant proposes raise existing single family dwelling and constructed a new single family dwelling in the pre nonconforming law. As shown the plan submitted eight Arlington. Okay. Hold on one second. Speaker 7: Designate who the alternatives are for Speaker 1: Voting. Oh yeah, we got a new one here, so, okay.
Gail's on this one. Okay. Andy, me, Alan, and Jason. Right. Okay. So gimme a second. Alright, so you got the smaller lot? Speaker 26: Yeah, I'm short on area frontage and depth. Yep. Speaker 1: So area frontage depth, but everything else, everything else is good. Yep. Yep. Just the lot. Okay. So let's see. Speaker 7: So it's pretty flat site? Speaker 26: Yeah. Yep. Level lot. Speaker 1: All right, let's go outta order a little bit here on this one. Anybody here on, sorry? Eight.
Speaker 26: Eight Arlington? Speaker 1: Eight. Speaker 26: Is it Arlington? Speaker 1: Eight Arlington. Anyone here on eight? Arlington? Okay. What do you know? Okay. Does the board have any questions here? Speaker 7: Anything come up? Okay. Speaker 11: I guess I'll ask a question while we're flipping pages. Go ahead. So when I went by the site, I saw that neighboring properties have a lot of trees and so on, on their side of the property line. And I'm wondering how close do you think the excavation is
going to be to Speaker 26: Too many. I built 10 Arlington, which is right next door. There's no trees between the two? Speaker 11: No, no. Be Oh, I'm sorry. To the rear behind. Oh wow. There's some major trees. Yeah. On the neighbor's property. Speaker 26: The robberies there. Yep. Actually I built that house. 17 Harwood, which is right behind them, but, oh, Speaker 11: I was wondering if, yeah, yeah. Speaker 26: No, those were all stay, we won't even affect those. Just like when we did 10 Arlington, they lasted right. They were perfectly fine. Speaker 11: But I mean, so the excavation Speaker 26: Around everything and then we right around so they don't even get to the roots. Right. Speaker 11: How many, how many feet away are you gonna be from the
rear lot line do you think? Speaker 26: More than, well, 27.8 when the house is done. So the closest is just when we do the foundation, we'll be a little bit dug over. So you'll still be about 25 because Speaker 11: I've seen a lot of that around town. Speaker 26: It'll be about 25, 24 feet from the trees. Even at the, at the greatest, which is just the excavation point for the foundation. And then once everything's backfilled, we'll be 27.8 feet from it. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Yep. Speaker 1: I have no questions. Does anybody else have any questions? And for the record, this is the difference between any two houses built in Natick. I Speaker 26: Know, right? We've been doing this a long time.
Speaker 1: I know. I'm saying you build this house across town, five or six people stand up and, and, and don't like it. Yeah. That's why everyone has to, every single project is idiosyncratic as we take it on, on, on those facts. Let's go Speaker 26: Take 'em one at a time. One at a time. Speaker 1: Okay. Anybody, before we close the hearing, thoughts, comments, concerns, questions, just go Speaker 8: Comments. Acknowledging that you know you are not maxing out all your parameters. Speaker 1: No, Speaker 26: I don't even come close. Speaker 8: Not even close. Speaker 26: Yeah. No. Speaker 1: Okay. Closed motion.
Speaker 4: I would move that we approve the project based on our finding that the proposed project's not substantially more detrimental to the neighborhood than the pre-existing, non-conforming use and structure provided its built and substantial conformance with the plan submitted and any requirements from town departments who submitted letters to the board. Speaker 1: Second is Allen. All those in favor? Okay. Five. Speaker 26: Excellent. Thank you. Take care. See you all of the next one. Speaker 1: You bet. Next matter. Three. Oxbow wrote an application for Johnny DeSilva for finding per mass general law. Chapter 48, section six. Then zoning bylaws. Section four being by the applicant proposes to raise the existing single family dwelling
and construct a new single family dwelling on the preexisting nonconforming. Allowed, shown on the plan submitted. Three oxbow. Yep. Hello gentlemen. Thank you for your patience. All. All right. Let's just find you folks here on oxbow. Okay. Favor or opposed? Opposed. Okay. Just want to see where we are. Alright. Alright, let's take a look and see. No, hold on. Let's see what we got here. Alright, look at the chart. Speaker 25: We're actually half the contingent had to leave because it was getting late.
Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. So the lots undersized. You have the frontage, your depth is undersized. Front's good. Oh, it's a corner lot. Okay, let's see. Speaker 8: About the building coverage. So that's in square footage rather than percentage. Speaker 1: Roughly 24%. Speaker 27: 24%. 24.7. 27. Speaker 8: I'm sorry. 27. Speaker 27: 24.27%. 24 point 27. Precise. Speaker 1: Okay, hold on a second.
Lemme sort, make sure this is done properly. Umpo a front millbrooks a front open. Rest to her sides to 12. Yep. Yeah. Yep. 30. Good. Good. Okay. Setbacks are good. Speaker 7: What is the square footage Speaker 1: Of the house? The total finish finish. Square footage of the house. Yes. Finish 4,594. Speaker 7: I'm sorry, could you say that? Speaker 1: 4,900 or 4,594.
Okay. What did we come two 4.27? Is that what it was? Yep. And is it, is it 25 RSAA 25%? Yeah. Okay. Alright. Now are you folks Scott and Paula Wilder? You are? Okay. I, I see there's a letter in the file here. I'm not gonna read it 'cause I presume you're gonna say what's in this letter. I certainly Okay. You have pictures. Okay. Okay. Okay. Alright. First, does the board have any questions? I Speaker 23: Actually, I just have one.
So given this is a corner lot, the height has to be calculated from the center line, correct? Of the street. So, correct. So was the building height measured from the center line of the street? Speaker 1: I don't think so, but we, no, it, it was measured from the average grade. From the average grade. Average grade. Yeah. So we're gonna adjust that. That's gonna cause an issue for us, but just 'cause we're gonna need that number to get an accurate Okay. But we, but we're here. So let's, let's listen. Sure. And, okay, we're gonna reserve our comments for a moment.
We don't, you come on up and we'll just have you give your name and address for the record. Speaker 21: Paula and Scott Wilder. 16 Millbrook. Hi. We're a direct abuts. Speaker 1: Okay, well, just so we know, you're you, you're on, did you say you're on Millbrook? On Millbrook? 16. Oh, Speaker 21: It's like a T. Yeah. Speaker 1: The, you're just across the street? Speaker 21: No, no, no. They, we direct, it's Speaker 28: Their properties Speaker 21: Like Speaker 1: This Where? Oh, I'm sorry. Where? Like a t You're kind of behind it then. Yeah, Speaker 28: It runs Speaker 21: Our entire property. So when we stand at Yeah, our door, we just Speaker 1: Look I gotcha, I gotcha here. Yep. Gotcha. Okay. Okay.
Speaker 28: Well thank you. So I I, we did submit a letter, we did submit some photos. Again, you know, this seems to be the theme of the night with con lots and water and height and all that. And you know, we noticed that right off the bat that the, from the zoning compliance, that the lot is too small for the proposed structure to go up. I dunno if you want me to read what we submitted or just go through the high points, which is fine. Speaker 1: Yeah, why don't you give us the high, but before you do, I don't have the photos that you submitted. Speaker 21: They're online. Speaker 1: They're online. They're, let's see if we can pull 'em up.
Just so if you're gonna reference them, I just want to have idea what they look like. Just give us two seconds. Speaker 29: The water situation, is that the two two photos at the end? Speaker 21: Yeah, at the very end. Yeah. The majority of the houses are the fifties slab branches, microphone. Oh sure. The majority of the houses are 50 slab branches. We're at the bottom of Millbrook. So ours has the lowest grade. We're about an inch to the ground. So we get flooding, it comes down millbrook like a river and ends. And this house, the length
of it would be the entire properties with hardscape totally around it. And it's not runoff from the house we're worried about it's runoff from the ground. Speaker 1: I think that's theirs. Right? 16. Yeah. Speaker 21: Other houses have been built in the neighborhood, but on full lots. Speaker 1: Say that Speaker 21: One again. Other houses that have been built have been teared downs because they needed to be and they were on full lots like ours, not corner. Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. So you have the issue of water.
Speaker 28: Yeah. Not only us, but there were other na the other neighbors that had to leave. I have the same issues with the water. Speaker 1: So you, that's an existing condition, right? I mean, I saw the picture. Your lot is flooded in the back. Yes sir. And you're worried it's gonna be exacerbated by this, right? Speaker 28: That is correct. Speaker 21: It's gonna create a dam. Speaker 1: Is there any, I'm not sure I understand that fully. Tell, tell me about that. Well, Speaker 21: I just think if the house runs parallel and the water flows down the street, it's going to just stop the water. Especially if the house is elevated and just run it back into our property
and we have nowhere to go. We can't raise the house. Yep. We don't have a basement for a pump. Speaker 28: And a lot of the ground around the house I think we serve is, is hardscape according to the plan. So there was no really, it's all Speaker 1: Concrete. Is there any retention on the, on the plan? Well, we had a test be done with the health border. The present, we noticed that the reason that you guys have water on the back is we did three test bits. One on the front, one on the side, and one on the back. Where their property is is because you have clay soil there, there's no way to correct,
you know, the water was just, you know, the water table is very high there. Right. So what we are working with our engineers is to, we, we did a, a rainwater report and they are intending to install two kac systems on the front where we have more ways to drain the water out. So that would actually improve the situation that we are today. Right. Right now the water is just landing on the ground and then fine on your property. So what we're we're thinking to do is improve the rainwater system to get out to,
you know, away from your property. Now that's what we're doing. Right. Speaker 21: But Speaker 1: We have other to address your, your concern. And I really appreciate you coming here too. Speaker 21: No, we, we have other neighbors that have paid a lot to put in remediation recently. Right. And it doesn't work. Speaker 1: And, and the other, the other thing that we we're, we are thinking about putting a basement, right? And because the water table is so high, we are like 24 inches, you know, so, so we are going with, with slab on grade, which is pretty much the same foundation that we have have there. And we are also not altering any grade elevations.
So we're leaving everything as it is to not have any issues. So we are trying to improve the neighborhood instead of causing any issues for you guys. Speaker 21: So the grade would remain the same, the height, the Speaker 1: Grade will stay the same. Okay. Speaker 28: Yeah. I mean that's stuff you can't pick up on the diagrams. We don't, we Speaker 1: Don't know. Absolutely. Speaker 28: I think the other concern is that just the way the house, again, whether a tee to our property line, I noticed on the, this, this two and a half story side, you got windows that would basically be looking right into our family room. But because we have skylights, Speaker 21: I mean it's close, it's the property is like from here
to that desk there. It's, we just go out and we look up like this, you know, that's, that's a tall house when you're around all slab ranches. Speaker 1: Yeah. We're we're, we're we're whipping the, the setbacks. So we're not going beyond the setbacks on the back. But do you have all, do you also wanna speak or are you just here for support? I'm here to speak. You're to speak. Okay. Speaker 25: I'm in a different at, on Millbrook Speaker 1: Road. Okay. Alright. So your issue is total, total size, the window bulk Speaker 21: Size and water mainly. And
Speaker 1: Water. Speaker 21: Yeah. Okay. I mean, it's a bad corner too, but yeah, it is what it is. Speaker 1: Okay. Alright. Thank you. Speaker 28: Thank you. Thank you for your attention. Thank you. Thank you. Speaker 1: Hi there. Your name and address? Speaker 11: Name is Ruth Friedenberg. I'm at 13 Millbrook Road, which is diagonal to the house. So I have three bullet points. My first one is the size of the house compared to the size of the lot. It's big. If you go look at the neighborhood at that end of the street, the houses are family style houses, ranches built on slabs.
Second issue that I have is water. I live diagonally across. I've been in there for over 20 years. I've had a dry well put in. I've had ducks in my backyard. And as a result I've put a dry well in. I have French drains. And that was done five, six years ago. I spent over 10 grand to take care of the water. I still have water. When it rains, it floods. My mother used to live there. She was afraid the house would float away. Okay. There is a lot of water in that area. And the drainage from the houses, which is not your issue.
The street does not take care of that water. So it has to stay. You can't drain to the street. So the big issue I have is water. Correct. That there is two feet of clay before you hit dirt. So consequently the water holds. Okay. So that's the main issue. Building more houses, they gonna sell whatever you're gonna do. There's a water issue, there's an aquifer. If you get an environmental engineer here, there's an aquifer that runs underneath the houses across the street where they live
and where this house is. Okay. So there is an aquifer. That's why it's called Millbrook Road. This, it was a brook there. The third issue I have, which is not your issue, it's basically it's a blind corner. Okay. I've commuted, I've walked to the T. It's a great location. You walk out that street, when you get to that corner Speaker 1: There, Speaker 11: It's at also a cross street or a cutoff from Framingham, excuse me, from Framingham. People can cut across to go to the T. And it, they run through there. I've gotten clipped a couple times at that corner. I do stop, but the cars just keep coming in.
So I'm concerned if the house is moved into a different direction, how much more blockage is gonna be on that corner. That's all. Thank you for your time. Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Did you have something sir? Speaker 25: I did not. Okay. I'm just listening because I'm going to be in these guys' position. Speaker 1: Oh, okay, good. Speaker 25: We can also, that's good. Paula has pictures of what we had. The river. Oh, the river? Well, the river. The water. Yeah, Speaker 1: The water. I think we saw those, right? Those the ones online and Speaker 25: Just the moving water. The moving water on the road. Speaker 1: Yeah. Is that something you've discussed with TPW at all?
Speaker 25: Yes. We've had the VPW out there to build another drain because we only had one drain on Oxbow side. Oh, by the way, the name of the road was difficult to find because they didn't call it oxbow road on, on the architectural plan. Wrong architectural, the Ox Ford Ox Bend. So we look at the architectural drawing. Took a while incorrect. Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you very much. Well, I'm sorry about this. Got a, we got a couple issues you gotta deal with, right? I mean, number one, we gotta have the height calculation. Two, I I think you gotta try to try to bring us something
to show us what, what the impacts of the Caltech systems are gonna be on the water. Right. And then the third thing, and this is the, this is the one that should not come as a surprise, given what you heard here tonight is this house is too big. It's just too big. It's the biggest one of the night. Save the best for last. The house is undersized. The house is oversized. It's, I can tell you that the board is, is it appears to be moving more conservatively tonight being a
fairly dramatic example of that. It is, in my experience, rare that so many projects in a row struggled to to be approved tonight. But I, I don't even think it was a close call. These houses are enormous. There's just too much. It's too much. It's, it's a, what did you say? It's almost 5,000 square feet. 45. Speaker 27: 4,500. Speaker 1: 4,500. Too big. It's too big. They are saying it. I see us.
It's just too big. I mean, I think you gotta be a, you gotta, you gotta, I don't know what the magic number is. I'm not gonna say 10 or 15%. 'cause that, I don't know. That seemed didn't seem to work tonight for some earlier projects. But does someone else wanna say something here? I I, I'm getting a sense from Alan and Andy and Ari here. That, and, and I don't know, we haven't really heard much from Gail in terms of the massing issue. But, but you would be voting on this. Do do, do you, do you want to give them some insight into your thinking?
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think the way you just described it is, is works for me. I, I am definitely hoping to see smaller houses that than that on a lot, that small. I also have a question. I went by there today and I was very grateful for the shade under the tree on the corner to park my car on. And, but I also noticed that it's about six feet in from the, no, 12 feet in from the right of way. Big maple on the corner there. And I'm guessing that would come down for an excavation this size.
Am I correct or, I know it's a slab not a, a true basement excavation. But the trees would be coming down, wouldn't they? Speaker 27: Yeah. And they would be replaced. Speaker 11: Right. But you know, we all know it takes a very long time to, for a tree to replace something. The mature, I, I didn't, I didn't measure the diameter of the trunks. Yeah. But they're significant trees. Speaker 1: There's truly the roots are damaging the sidewall. Speaker 11: Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1: And the, the, I think that there's a gas line going under it, it, it's a little concern there. So that would be the main reason to, and
Speaker 27: They are, they're growing above the ground. Above the, the grade. Yeah. The, the roots are going, going up just above the the the ground. Speaker 11: Oh, you mean, you mean has surface? It has surface surface roots. Yeah. Speaker 27: Both of them Speaker 11: Are, yes. Yeah. Lot. A lot of trees around here. Do they do Speaker 27: Okay. Speaker 11: Yeah. Maples. Maples are very fond of the surface. Okay. Speaker 23: I, I live near there within like, running or walking distance. So I'm familiar with that neighborhood. And I would say that I don't wanna, I think a number isn't something that we, I can give,
I would say if you look at the homes that are on it, this would be the biggest house by a landslide in that neighborhood. And I think just something more in scale, more in line with what you would see around there. And some of the larger houses, the houses that have been redone. There are a lot of ranches, but there are some that have actually got, you know, two floors and that have been seemingly, you know, done recently. I would say something in line with those would garner more support, I think from myself. I can't speak to that for anybody else. Speaker 27: I was going to have a, a basement, but
because of the water, we're like, okay, we're gonna, instead of having the basement, we're gonna, that's the only reason why we, we, we expanded the, the size, but it's still within the 24. It's 24%. So for me it was still within the requirements of natick. Speaker 24: Yeah. But I would suggest, recommend that you take a look around the houses that you're wanting to build next to and mirror them. Speaker 1: I, I think that, that in terms of scale, in terms
of massing, in terms of bulk, maybe it's just something that's sort of more in line, maybe not exactly right. I mean, houses are getting bigger. Speaker 24: So I have Speaker 1: One you gotta, in order to speak, you have to do it in the mic. Speaker 11: So I have one thing to add regarding the trees. There were trees along, if you're looking at the street along the right side of my property, which were taken down five years ago. So if you're familiar with environmental and trees, the tree roots take the water in. So when those trees came down, the water increased.
So taking these trees down, you're gonna have to take three trees down in order to put the house there. It's going to exacerbate the water issue because tree roots need the water. That's why I have one tree left on my property that I have not taken down because of the water. That's it. Thank you. Thank you. And I'll just, I'll just add to that, that I, that's one of those numbers I need to memorize. I was told by a former employee in the department here about how many gallons of water are aspirated or, you know, put into the air every day
by trees action like a deciduous tree. And it's astonishing how much water they remove from the ground and put into the air. And it has a significant impact on small lots where there's water issues. And I, I count my property in Central Natick among those. So, Speaker 24: Sounds like we want to continue. Speaker 1: Yep. So let's go ahead and do that. My recommendation would be that you actually take, go outside and exchange numbers with these folks outside. Sure. They're gonna be back here. You've been here all night.
You kinda saw the way things were going. I doubt any of this comes as a great surprise to you. Go, go. Speaker 4: I move to continue the hearing to our next meeting, July 28th. Okay. Speaker 1: Second. Second over there. And all those in favor? I don't know, just put your hand up. Okay. Okay. And he's not. Okay. So that's it. We'll see you on the 28th, but just step outside if you would. Thank you very much. Now we have some business to take you. Speaker 24: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to move the May 19th minutes for approval. Speaker 1: Okay. Second. Speaker 4: Yes. Second.
Speaker 1: Okay. All those in favor? Aye. Okay. Approved? Yep. Yeah, you're all set. Yeah. Thanks very much. Good. Take Speaker 23: Care. I had a comment about eight Liberty, because we were, Speaker 1: Oh wait, yeah, Speaker 23: So for eight Liberty that is listed on the portal is being closed. Yes. Speaker 30: It, Speaker 23: They there's something about it. I getting there. It shouldn't have been on the agenda. Oh, okay. I just wanna make sure that was okay. Speaker 1: Okay, good. Alright. So now we do, we have, let's see, let's take a look at this. Okay. First of all, welcome. Gail Weston Roberts to the board. Welcome. Yes, welcome. I'll say for the record, if we're still on tape here,
that I just want to go say thank you for Mike Lynch's efforts. He was a valued member of the board. He had a particular expertise in building and we're gonna miss his insight and just wanna say thank you very much for your service. It was invaluable. Thank you. Speaker 11: And I'd like to add, since I'm kind of the reason he's no longer on the board, that I will never be able to fill his shoes or his work boots. And I always appreciated perspectives and knowledge that he brought every time he chose to speak.
Speaker 1: Very nice. Okay. Thank you very much. We have board reorganization slash election. So sorry Mr. Speaker 4: Chairman, one more thing. Yep. Did we vote to continue eight Liberty? Speaker 1: It's off. It's closed. Oh, it shouldn't have been on there. It was an error. Oh, okay. Yeah, it was just a, a typographical error. So I'll ask it this way. Who would like to be chair? Speaker 30: You're a funny guy Speaker 11: Now, now I have to point out Jeff and Rob are not here. Speaker 4: Yeah, I nominate Rob. Yeah, Speaker 1: Right, right, right. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, how about that? Huh? Speaker 11: It's, it's an unfortunate coincidence
that they're not here tonight. Yeah. Speaker 24: Mr. Chairman, I would like to move to have you as Okay. Can I kindly ask for a second? Speaker 1: Does anybody else want to, Speaker 11: Is there Speaker 23: The third, can you third it? No. Speaker 11: Is, am I correct in assuming that it, you do have to be a full member. You can't be an associate member to serve as chair? Speaker 1: I don't know. Speaker 11: See, I tried to figure that out and I couldn't ascertain for sure. Speaker 1: You're a full member. Speaker 11: Oh, I know I am. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 11: No, I'm talking about associate members. Oh, Speaker 1: Listen chair.
Anybody else wants to throw their hat in the ring? Toss away. Shocking. Well, thank you. Speaker 11: What about you Ari? Speaker 1: I, oh no. Speaker 11: Oh, okay. Oh, just since you didn't move, I just had to ask. I'm Speaker 24: Grateful for the chair's leadership and thank Speaker 1: You Adam. Thank you. This experience. I appreciate it very much. So we have a motion. Is it a motion? Do Speaker 24: We do it as a slate? Speaker 1: Do what? Speaker 24: We can do it as a slate, right? Speaker 1: A slate? I, Speaker 24: Yeah, so, and then for vice chair? Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh sure. Yeah, Speaker 11: I do.
Do we have to do Vice? Vice and clerk? Speaker 1: I don't know that we, because Speaker 11: Rob was last April, if it's supposed to be once a year. Speaker 1: Do we do, do I think, do we do it every year? We don't do it every year. We do Speaker 11: It annually. Yeah, you're supposed to. Annually. Speaker 1: We have not been following the rules maybe. Okay. So as a slate, Jack's chair, Kosky as vice chair and Beck as clerk. Is that what we just said? Is Rob the clerk now? Yes. Okay. So do we want to second that? Is that how we do it? Yes. I'll second that slate. So I guess all those in favor?
I don't, I guess I'm voting, but Yay. Speaker 24: Thank you. Speaker 1: Good work you. Thanks. Congratulations. Thanks for nothing Speaker 24: Mr. Chairman. Motion adjourn. Speaker 1: Okay, so motion to adjourn. Second. Second. Okay. All those in favor? Aye. Okay, thanks Peg. Thanks very much.