##VIDEO ID:ct9sdCfzDAc## well leaving everybody I'm David pow and I'm co-chair with Bill who's sitting down there with his hand up um and then we have two members of the committee at the other end of the table um and so what I'd like to do is go around the table and find out who you are um I understand you're all from cwell Farm um and so what we will do after we approve our minutes is to move that item up on our agenda so that you don't have to spend the rest of the evening listening to us unless you wish it okay I actually did that a few months ago and it was at a civil meeting I I've been in a lot of public committee meetings and it was very nice to see how you folks operate well I thank you I I don't know whether we'll cover ourselves with Glory tonight but I hopefully set the standard so uh unless now we have members of the public and you may want to ask questions in that period of time for questions from members of the public but if your questions are specifically about the for trail why you hold until then but if you have any questions about the open space committee as a town instrument let say um I don't know whether I could answer them but I'd be happy to try if anyone has any no okay well hearing none um so David do you can we just quickly do introductions sry introductions yes yes okay so we can start with you sir who actually visited us once before I think I I was with you for a meeting I wanted to see what the committee did as I said it was uh it was nice to see Community Committee operating without tearing each other's hair out everybody can speak for their own uh but uh I'm Barry costlo I live at 36 cwell Farm Road and I may be the closest if not one of the two or three closest especially to a very inviting exit from the trail to Caldwell farm so I'm very concerned about about trespassing uh and should I continue with my thoughts on it well I prefer that we go around the table first if you wouldn't mind I'm Bill Butler 68 call check 72 722 I Nancy Demento Jerome 114 cell Farm Bill Hoffman co-chair um live over on um Marsh Avenue in down Old Town my carbon uh open space member I live on Scotland Road Jim dueling I've been attending open space meetings for six n months or so and I live at 51 Orchard Street right um Christen GRS I'm planning director for Newbury um also live on at 28 Elm Street um I'm S I live over in rally on Dodge Road um and I am just here to um observe um I'm potentially starting a part job with cheny I'm Alan seal on at 64 called W I'm Debbie Tor I'm at 72 call I'm Deb Kennedy I'm at 54 call great fine thank you I'm just tell you where I live and that is at 5 can't way so I walk right um so can we um move to the minutes Mike I make a motion to accept the November 19th 2024 meeting minutes okay and we have a vote to accept the minutes for our last meeting on there okay all everybody saying I yes so that's done so let us move up the item on the C Farm trail and we'll get to the open space website issued later um can we do we have any material that shows us this the trail Etc um so if I may my idea was to give an update essentially and then you know if there's discussion and answer any questions so I will just say this is the first time the open space committee has discussed the trail this iteration of the open space committee has discussed the trail so it's an update and an opportunity to you know talk about it um and celebrate the fact that it's been a long process for the town I have only been in this position for a year and a half um so all of us at the committee level and staff level are new to it but I understand you know that it's been out there as a project for a while so um so my understanding is um when calwell Farm was originally permitted there was open space it was the first open space residential subdivision that the town actually permitted um and what that means is cluster development with open space set aside so that went forward I think um at least from my perspective as a planner it was a really successful project um the conservation restriction area is sort of a um you know horseshoe around the homes and then obviously you all who live there know well where the road is and where the trails are welcome there's also a trail down here if anyone else shows up and we can get more um so uh so the trail wasn't built bu at the time uh the trail was always a part of the original permit but it wasn't built at the time correct me if I'm wrong at the time of the construction that part's true but I'm not sure it was part of the original permit because the reason the authorization for the TR Trail exists was that was a tradeoff for the contractor getting to build two more buildings yes so I was a member with the planning board shortly after that agreement was made between the developer and the town and the developer in fact got two bonus Lots because of two things one was because of adding as much Upland space as could be done based on his plans and the second one was to include access for the for a public tra and and at the time the developer was supposed to actually lay out the trail and there was going to be discussion as to whether the trail was to be actually done by the developer or done by a combination of the developer and the town well it never happened largely because as you probably is anyone here from Coro farmers live there since this yeah I was yeah and I was I was on the board at the time of the first battle with the selectman right but they didn't have the trail and it was advertised with the walking trail and I have maps of the original walking trail great very maintained for about three or four years when we first uh moved in right and so you know that in fact that trail um essentially existed and it existed together with some dedicated parking spaces I don't think there was any parking spaces that I was aware of I didn't I don't see anything I never saw any any of the original plans I saw the plans and some of the meetings I had with selectman so I don't know that there was ever any parking I don't know if there was any Easten or not but we could always look up the old Easten was any I don't think so the original Trail eement which I have here is recorded at the registry was October um 2004 so that was approximately the time of the original right yeah so this is you know a trail eement that is you know somewhat gen General it lays out that the trail shall be a primitive and natural walking area um for the public um it had a general 20 feet wide location shown on the plan that was reported um but the actual specific location on the ground was not established at this time um and then to kind of I'm sure there's a lot of history we can't cover today but to fast forward ahead um in May of 2022 there was a revised Trail easement agreement and that's probably what most of us are around the table are more familiar with which does give more detail around location uses um you know uh things to be prohibited um and I maybe it's worthwhile just kind of quickly going through this um the town will undertake construction and marking of the trail including Wetlands Crossings all you know compliance with all regulations and permits um in particular Wetlands um the trail shall be a primitive and natural walking trail over natural terrain with various grades and obstacles designed for pedestrian access passive recreational use walking and jogging only use of the trail uh shall be limited to the hours of Sunrise to the following Sunset no wheeled mechanized or motorized vehicles permitted on the trail with the exception of Emer emercy you can probably get yeah I'm happy to email this to anyone who doesn't have it it's it's recorded that was May of 22 this was May of 2022 yep what what was the original one 2004 2004 yep um you know anyway there's some detail fires hited alcohol prohibited all litter shall be packed out um pets must be kept on a leash animal waste must be carried off uh there's some information about signage the town will post the trail with appropriate signage detailing prohibitions and limitations one sign shall be installed at each of the two Trail access points on Elm Street approximately 10 ft back from the pave travel Lane a third sign shall be installed at a along the northeasterly property line where the trail is closest to the existing Trail on the adjacent property belonging to Governor's Academy final sign locations will be determined by the town in consultation with cell Farm uh cfct which is cell Farm condominium trust um the town will create a parking area sufficient for three to four cars within the Elm Street right of way adjacent to the designated a trail head the town will undertake maintenance of the trail one or two times per year at the conservation commission's discretion by cutting brush ensuring the trail is passable free from litter maintaining signage um there's an item regarding the split rail fence um which is shown on this plan I'll unroll this in a second um cfct shall pay to the town uh at the execution here of $1,000 towards the construction and installation of a limited length of split rail fence by the town the town shall install this length of split rail fencing specifically to delineate the trail path behind the residential units numbered 32 to 36 and 38 to 42 and to direct users away from these residential units um cfct may but shall not be obligated to install split rail fencing between the trail and other units as they determine is necessary and at their own cost and expense cfct may but has no obligation to inform the town if it becomes aware of any safety or nuisance issues regarding the trail or any misuse of the trail by the public um nothing in this agreement shall limit the ability of the town or cfct to Avail themselves of the protections provided by any applicable law affording immunity to either party um including to the extent applicable the so-called recreational use statute um so that's about liability both parties have had the opportunity to consult with Council prior to signing this agreement the trail plan shall be attached to this agreement um and and as set forth in general laws neither cfct nor the town shall be liable to members of the general public who use this non-exclusive use seasment um and then the signatures again are in 2022 and there is so this attachment is this plan so essentially when I got involved if became known to me that the trail that there was an agreement that two years later the trail had never been established on the ground so um so in consultation with the town manager and Martha Taylor the previous plan director um and other staff the conservation agent um public works department in cons and we communicated with Tom um hopefully some communication trickled out to all of you who live there um and we uh very thankfully had some GIS support from Essex County Greenville um where KN Works um to help us locate to translate this plan this piece of paper to on the ground so we've had several walks different groups of us the conservation agent to look at the wetlands areas Mike and I walked with a big um GIS uh GPS unit and located where this went currently the route that is was flagged as this outer route we have not maybe if anyone's been out there this does not exist on the ground yet um there was some discussion whether it was needed um but that's an open question not definitive yet so I'd Beed on any um discussion and input on that and then we walked around so and then DPW went out with the leaf blower and um just essentially did very minimal cutting to show that it's a primitive walking path that's marked on the ground and then the parking areas were established by the town's public works department M there's if you um I think it's about 2 to three the trail the trail agreement said 3 to four it didn't seem like that was reasonable it kind of drops off there's some Wetlands nearby it seemed appropriate um that you know other similar Trails I think two to three is sort of a reasonable um good question uh yeah the people that are parking there they going to need any parking per from the town um I do not think there's anything that requires that really why um I mean there was no uh agreement that it was limited to public use by residents it was it's a it's a publicly accessible yes it's part of it involves the fact that it has to be open to the public you're going to have handicap parking designated handicap parking also there is no question of handic of disabled access federal law you have to have handicap AR I took a look at that space and I I think it's there's a risk to life and limb from that space I don't think you can park a car parallel no one's going to nose in cuz I don't think it's deep enough it's not deep enough to so if you park parallel and you open the door it's going to be in the front uh Grill of a big truck at some point some I mean there has been parking there I I will just say it is similar to other Trails I've used and I've tried it out um that's not to say it's not a concern that we need to just raising it you imagine I'm not going to be doing a lot of hiking well I frankly I will say when I first read this easement I was interested that it it it didn't discuss you know access for uh disabled or any other multi-user it very much specified a natural primitive trail with you know I forgot what that language was but um uh primitive and natural walking trail over natural terrain with various grades and obstacles it's a bumpy Trail right now whether you know there's lots of Art and Science around Trail building and I don't know if the community of us you know are interested in that that's a conversation to be had I think what has been established so far is the beginning of establishing that access it doesn't mean there can't be you know modifications or changes um I in my opinion but that's that's a process for the town we need to know and be in any any discussion because we still have contractual rights exactly and we're not here to to block anything or or not just there are some concerns that we just like to get them out that's great no I I welcome all of that um I'm glad you're here yeah so has it it is now at least the first step all the way around I haven't been out here yet but um it is and all that's all the only way you know is uh it's cleared of leaves and debris um and there's still some red flagging which was the initial thing just hanging from branches um but there's no um there's no other signage yet in the original Trail there were some lackings one there there definitely were and when found a lot of those we found them and we were like oh good we're you know the unit is telling us we're in the right place and there's a tree with an old red like faded paint and so that was reassuring and we just flagged it so that DPW had something to follow that was obvious to them um knowing the flagging will come down after it's you know established and the town decides to have some sort of a trail marker or something like that to to to put on the route and that was one of the things um that I was interested in this committee helping with because you know the DPW has funding to you know have markers and build the sign but I didn't I want that those decisions on what that looks like and you know to be somewhat consistent with other Town open space and to you know to clearly lay out the don'ts you know like no biking and but also to celebrate the fact that it's wonderful to have a place to walk that's not busy ym street right like I live in this neighborhood too and if you have to get in your car and walk you know go somewhere to walk anyway so just kind of striking a balance between welcoming this as a new wonderful open space Rec asset for the public and the community with the concerns of you know it's property that's owned by CBO firm condo trust and we have these easements so we need to just proceed in a way that works for everyone um and doesn't bring uh new you know new challenges um and I will just say I've had conversations as well with the police chief and she has certainly uh interested in getting a trail map so if there are ever any you know emergency concerns she and her um staff you know know essentially what what is on the ground um there's some amenities I've thought of it might be really lovely to have a bench in the back there when you get in the back and you look out on the marsh you feel like you're a million miles away from Elm Street um and from pavement anywhere it's really quite quiet and a beautiful piece of forest in there yeah a bench right here that's that's on Sunset Point right yeah that's on the that's on Old put that in there is it on um the governor's yeah we have we have a the other Trail the governor's Trail yeah one time they wanted to attach the governor's Trail to our Trail and have it as a running path for Triton and the governors okay instead of running out on the street but that was denied is that so that is that an option of in the future or because it's a it's a rustic walking trail well it does say walking and jogging yeah well they what they wanted to do originally was put down yeah they want to make it accessible to put you know like stone dust down and have it pretty wide track team track team that's a different yeah yeah yeah well it is I mean to it sounds like you know but because I live near Governors Adel and Roode has their trails and they at least since Co have been very welcoming to neighbors to use within you know depending on what's going on on their property but and then the government Governor's Trail it's literally right there on the other side of the stone wall it's very interesting guys been out there yet you can see the governor's trail from your house get a lot of use unfortunately see them going by every once in a while and you know that that's my other concern being so close and we're right we're at 36 that's right at the end of the First Fence okay if you will and uh we're concerned about trespasses using is a way to get out and cross farm and walk out down street that way rather than going back through the trail and so that that we will uh as an individual I'm not speaking for Caro farm at all but as an individual I will enforce our right to privacy and no trespassing who so just I'm not sure who you are saying would be trespassing if somebody comes off the trail and wants to walk out up into the road a straight out instead of all the way back if I was walking out there would you be excuse me you wouldn't shoot me if I walked out my back door would you yeah but we'd be responsible if you fell on that property it's my property too so no not not if you're on Cobo Farm I live there so do yeah obviously one of the ones I didn't sell but yeah we need to watch out for that well as I say I go out there a lot and it gets a lot of use but I don't see a lot of there are people from Caro farm that could down between your house and mine no there had been some in the past but it hasn't happened in a while and I don't expect that it's going to be a major problem no but uh so how would your would would residents access the tra like walk I we could do two things we walk down to the entrance or we could walk across our property and go go into the trail around the F around the fence I guess I was just curious whether it's been discussed to date about like one preferred access point from your there isn't there a marker by your home where the trail was where you we could access and then a space and there was going to be an entrance there yeah there was originally orig which picks me off no end but yeah do you blocking up I would have a question and that is do you have as part of your uh property situation do you have dedicated spaces to each unit or is all of the space essentially HOA space Home Association a yeah it's common area space it's common are it's common in other words the moment you step out of your front door you're into common areas so so if a neighbor from down in the 20s wanted to come back through behind the 40s they would easily drop between my house and batteries right in a common space and trip over the wall and into the trail and the way they go and they do quite often virtually every morning car does that walkg through there right so I think one of the things that um is true here is that my involvement with this originally was in fact to explore largely at that point for the Triton schools to in fact get something which enabled them to do CrossCountry running which would use trails that started at the school and basically went through the area that the trail now exists and connected to Adin Roode and then on to Governors um and then in fact what you would have is the possibility of connecting that to the planing Fields so you would now have the potential to have a trail a public walking trail which in fact LED from The Falls okay you we all know where that is long all the way to Route One um and that was the vision there were a lot of issues which needed to be addressed and at that point the C War Farms nonexistent Trail because it really didn't exist um in the exist we have a m well yeah it existed our also in our uh you know brochures and everything we were we were selling them and buying it they mention a trailer well I say it didn't exist but I mean it literally wasn't on the you couldn't go actually and find the ends of well B Bar the first few years maintained it he had his grandson out there cleaning it and maintaining that trail and people did use it right yeah a lot of our you know but people stopped using it because of all the tick right so anyway so the issues there were multiple in that the connection between the playing fields and Triton has some fairly severe conservation issues and so on so what in fact happened was I was able to provide them with a very different kind of CrossCountry opportunity at Oldtown Hill um the trustees property at Oldtown Hill which is now actually for the last whatever it is six or seven years where they have actually done their cross country um with other schools I I think here what we're facing is the situation that the town is obviously going to make it very clear with its signage that in fact you are in a particular situation and you need to respect the homeowners and and their private Y and and you know quiet Etc and I would just pointed the fact that esis County Green Belt as Mike well knows is very good at providing very clear signage when you are about to either leave their property for private property which may have a permitted Trail on it or whether you are in fact at the limit of their property and I think it can be possible for us to in fact make it rather clear that you know where you might feel that it would be easy to come off the trail and get involved with your homes in a way that you might find disturbing one compost sign is just reminding people that please stay on the trail Etc so I hope that that kind of thing and that's the sort of thing that we as as an open space Committee in terms of signage obviously will be talking about so what I would like to suggest because we have we do have other agenda items tonight and some limited time is if you have very specific suggestions or issues if you would like to communicate those directly to Christen um that might be the best best way to pull together so that then the committee can look at those and discuss them and get back to you if you feel that's a way to do this I think it might be because I I I'm not trying to cut off discussion at this point but I'm what I'm suggesting simply is some of you may have some very specific things which require really looking them in relation to uh you know a a unit that you own and its relationship to the trail unfortunately because we got bumped out of our normal meeting place by the all people of the Conservation Commission of course um we weren't you know sharing that trail map could have been done and if we' had a little more time maybe it could have been done on the the the television up there but I I think from my perspective I find it very difficult when I can't see something in front of me if there are some issues which have to do with the trail routing or or Etc um is this map available online at all do you know um uh I it's we have it in a PDF that can be emailed or and I am happy to you a page on the open space committee page that includes the materials the EAS up and put the M could someone send an email request to you and you could send them a PDF Chris y absolutely yeah could you send it to Alan and he can distribute it to the sure sure because we can we can make that available on the drop box at combo farm and um so that's great yeah and I think what is your email address um it's planning director one word at Town of new.org is anyone here tonight from your Association committee or whatever you have yeah I'm president of oh okay great good so I hope you will take back things from tonight to them yeah I've made a few notes thank you great I I think that sounds great I mean if if there any sure other comments again you know we're happy to hear things tonight but it's it's just you know we're just getting going we want to celebrate it we want to you know have it be a new public asset that works for everybody for sure can I ask a question and this yeah didn't start with the trail but then it it just happened this Saturday you hear gunshots often there Hunters but I never see them so Saturday I heard them I went out back I didn't see anything at first and then I saw orange vests and they were in the marsh so I guess I asked Alan they have to be 500 ft from the back of the house well the trail if you cut it in half is probably 250 ft maybe you guys might know better from the back where I live so now if you've got a trail that's 250 ft out and it's 500 ft from the back of my house do you have people out there hunting now that are going to be 250 ft from the trail would have be have to be 500 ft from your house right but the trail is probably 250 ft from another 250 ft beyond that so you'll have people walking while there's hunting going out there which happens all over the place that close very common close yeah I mean between Martin Burns trust e land green Bel properties other Municipal lands I mean that's and do you put that's going on a lot so so from for I can only speak for green bell cuz that's my employer but uh on properties that we permit hunting on we have a sign that you know says that hunting is permitted on this property with our permission it's not just you know um open to anyone but it alerts the public that you know proper that could be hunted you know so you know wear some orange um things like that most hunters aren't out in the middle of the day would say I mean for morning mornings and evenings I mean you know regard to that I think I can speak very personally because I originally lived on Orchard Street and my house was the corner Peg of Martin Burns okay so in other words I could walk out of my backyard into Martin Burns and I have to take tell you that one of the things about Massachusetts Hunters is they don't like wet feet and so we had a certainly when I lived there for 20 plus years we had a very intelligent group of deer who knew that and so they would appear on my property early in the morning and wait until the hunters had done their thing and went home and then they would go back to their business having spent the time at my house so I I think you know um yeah you have to live with those kinds of things I do have a little suggestion maybe Mike I'm can I just say I just want to say to cl to that's a good idea because one of my neighbors was going to go down and walk the trail and they had been down there and later that day I saw it and I S to them do you know there's people hunting out there and they're like oh my God no so you know they didn't I've never I've been there four years now I've never actually seen anybody back there but you could see these guys and I will just mention I was on the property with my husband my son and my dog and we were wearing orange so no no these I'm not saying who you saw but just they were in Marsh I had I got my binoculars there was a rifle sticking out of that was not me my dog had Orange right Mike would you compare this terrain with South Street Lots at all the train yes as far as the trail goes is it it's similar in terms of the parking lot for example on the street and the kind of terrain that it is sure we yeah we we have a property on on the west new side of South Street that is shoulder parking it's three cars um um and you know the trail traverses through kind of uneven terrain and wetlands it's got boardwalks in places and whatnot uh it's not you know very hilly Terrain in there and I think calwell is very similar there you know you have a little bit of slope in the beginning and and at the end but most of it's you know pretty even terrain so to speak um you know and that the the property that I'm I'm referencing you know that's somebody goes there they they take a 30 minute walk and and they're gone it's not a property that somebody kind of lingers on uh type of thing it's so going for a walk and leaving um which I I would assume that this would be that kind of use here as well too you know it would be Go Walk The Loop and move on with your day type of thing you know um not a place that would see a car sitting there you know for five six hours or something like that you know there's no connectivity to continue on anywhere or anything like that so it' be taking a nice walk and and and heading off I was just thinking that for those of you who might don't know it um it's on South Street which is at the top of Main Street you go into Byfield Center and follow up Main Street uh where the town intersects with West Newbury there's signage for it's called South Street wood lots and I would just suggest you go and walk it because it if you you want to get a sense of what a trail might look like and end up being in in uh Corell Farm I'm not saying it's going to be the same but I think it it's the place that occurs to me as being somewhat similar I have personally not had a chance right now to walk what has been laid out but I fully intend to um and I think this is you know just a I I think it's a very good start and I thank you all for your concern and for coming yeah the question you were just asking about hunting um I don't see language in the agreement about it um in the way there is it's clear nobody thought mountain bikers were a good idea like that's clearly named no V you know vehicles or motorized vehicles um but I don't it's worth discussing I don't know if it's ever I mean your Association owns the property um usually be a landowner discretion if it's not a named thing you know would be you folks want to allow huning on the property that would be your say type of thing you know or disallow it yes yes except for not on our not on our property it's not currently is that a rule of the association no hunting on there no hunting because I don't see I didn't see any signage we've been putting some posted signs out around because we've had some you have other things n is found back there so we've been adding some signs yeah okay around the I think that is at your discretion so certainly at the edges of your property if they you know I don't know how easy it is to find the boundaries but that's you know we may need to add signage around perimeter but we also have the discretion of adding our own signage along the trail if we feel that people are coming out using the trail to then do come not technically illegal new because it's you have to have land owners permission to hunt private property typically in written form so if someone is hunting on your property and you did not give them written permission as as a group of as owners then they should not don't don't you have to have permission to cross somebody's property to hunt to like if you were trying to get to a neighboring parcel you would have to have colwell's permission to cross their land to you can't use the trail to walk yeah to walk into another spot but for somebody to be roughly right here hunting the first time I've been there 19 years first time I've seen anybody there um the parking that's here there's not going to be any parking at this end right that's my understanding so my this is just to put the question on the table not for discussion now but but would concern me it's a pretty long walk to get back to your car and the safety of that is is there anything that can be just widened along the road for a little bit of walkway there to make it safer for people to that's I think I mean it's certainly something I've thought and we those of us who've been out there recognize I know you know in the growing season you all have beautiful flowers this season I think I was walking right along the Rocks there right oh right in front of us there's there's room to get off the road but in some other places you can't get off thead I think it's worth like maybe us talking a little about because there is the wall there is you know vegetation you want it to be safe you you know it's your septic area there's some I think how this is marked where exactly you want people to walk along there is a question yeah and and I mean I'm thinking actually more up up here here where there's not it's just the original not ACC on this side it had a loop inside back I didn't think there was an exit at this end yeah over here dumps you off septic field yeah that's the same that's the same plan but it's on small scale this is this is what I've always seen very but you've been here longer than me nothing there it comes back out here I me there's no like I would never do it there's no way to get yeah it just makes work makes a huge difference yeah and when I came off the trail I turn around and noticed that there's no you can't tra from that sign see oh they won't come in that way but they may work out some of those decisions would be more planning in DPW related like situation like that right in terms of the signage or whether there should be how EXA exactly that's not really a decision of this committee no I think it's I mean it's it's technically the Conservation Commission generally open space committees serve as advisory to Town owned entities Conservation Commission but I th those are important discussions and I think again it's certainly something that the police chief has asked about um again as a user this stretch to your point this stretch is very dark yeah yeah and there's a little bit of a bend and people drive too fast on Street yes all of that so anyway one comment was actually having uh that someone said to me was having a parking area there which a cruiser can safely now pull out on Elm Street that was actually presented as a potential benefit to traffic uh you know when you put up signs that or there's often a cruiser who sits in front of Triton who I think slows down traffic on that part of M Street um here's another location along a stretch of road that I think is deemed as unsafe maybe we can um anyway what are the ways to make sure that we make it as safe for all users cars pedestrians well I think about people from cwell Farm who are all over 55 and you know walking along that stretch um just for that to be safe right yeah the parking area looks likeed on one there is that well it's established but it's not finished I would say it looks like it's only big enough probably one like yeah that's what I was thinking awfully small well just try it out yeah yeah I have seen two and probably three cars being able to certainly two have I have seen two cars let's look at it yeah it's there are limitations there's the wall there's Wetland so you know but I and I will I'll just mention I think originally that was why during the original permitting way back there was the idea that of parking within your property to access the trail because that would be safer right we'll just say it it's safer if you're off the busy road that is not no longer on the table this was an alternative thank you very much so thank you yeah thank you for all right and I'm happy to send you the docents well you remember when they called for right handed people that's a nice handle isn't that's two things one get a compliment and then they help all guys get the code on there you go well good to see you again I what's her name the town attorney she and I would have screaming matches and i' try wondering why anyway thanate have a nice evening I'm I've got sergeants on both Sid oh then had the general before he passed the other side they looked at me from Vietnam and said go away well when I was selling the General's house uh I the military side of the air Bas a good guy a lot of reasons to be ontic two large groups heard that that was but well before me yeah this was done was laid out per before mediation that ended up here so I don't know why it got lost but don't yeah problem so we being very inviting for school children people this is an interesting me I probably a lot of bad things happen afraid things happen we need one conversation um well all I was going to say is that um having okay I spent 35 plus years being the trail uh and property volunteer at Oldtown Hill and also worked with a number of organizations including the MDC and people like this and one of the things that happens is you get what are called social trails in other words Trails which are made simply by people's feet and I think my guess is what's going to happen is this is going to achieve social Trails um and it's always better to get out ahead of that and actually say okay this shrieks a place that social Trail is going to occur so if if we can make that happen and not get involved in your know private lands Etc and in this case I think you've got a situation where both of the ABS would be perfectly happy if there were connections that were planned as opposed to occurring because of what I'm hearing from your residents is well who's going to come walking on our trails and I can understand that um and if if rather than having sort of this unknown quantity one has planned for it to some degree and it's reflected in the signning then then I think you're were aheed again so as you're well aware the distance behind my house which probably be about here 38 somewhere and the Oldtown Road Trail or Indian Hill Trail or the cricket was a chicken Hill all those cute names that are out there I almost said this earlier well people won't spend much time out it a go B they find picnic Rock um picnic oh my god um so you we can't have that but the distance between this Trail I was on it the other day and the Oldtown or Indian Hill Trail that goes around the Oldtown Road uh on the Govern proper that is property right the governor is now I date myself but um it's probably all about 15 yard yeah it is right there there's already two walking trails one lady like prefers to go down closer to Barry's house with her dog and I prefer to go a different way and there's two obvious foot Trails as you say social trails that are starting to show between the property and the governors and then and now this so it'll happen yeah and I think it'll begin to happen out here when is it Great Meadow Circle that was maintained by the Boy Scouts years ago behind the ball fields I think it's a great me behind manfields Island that was called yeah well boy SC sign we did this boy SC mastering West for about 10 years so we also put a trail over there but what I noticed was the cross country team when I was out there inating and poking around the cross country team came running by me in force and I thought oh wonderful I wonder if they get over on the other side your point yeah yeah I guess not as easily they'd have to go out on the road no it's it's yeah well and Governor's cross country doesn't use the doctor Trails CH Hill well they're over on the other side well they're they have a 3 and a half mile loop it's just the woods on the other side um on the South Side on the south side of el Street they they can go over the bridge so they they go through some of that Marsh area that a buts where we're talking about but they don't actually do that full loop around but yeah there are lots of Runners um the governor's campus students and others who would love to have access to newa and get off El Street frankly right um so well welcome what's your name again Bill Sergeant bill that's great you have that background on West Newbury and also are a resident in terms of the open space work that that town has done and um and then Sean I just think you introduced yourself yeah I'm Sean I actually live on Main Street I'm just a Observer I'm interested in more of the uh rail trail caror in Byfield connecting to Georgetown to SC I invited we had a conversation about the open space commit talking about Trails I've walked just about all of these other trails that you've talked about so it's just interesting yeah discussion we're talking about how Main Street is quite dangerous to walk but if you provide access to what the long-term vision of the board of Austin which is behind the homes it's an alternative you could then use it to walk into you know the library if you lived on Main Street there just there's so many ways it's a positive um addition to getting around really getting your car right and it's I mean it's it's common for an an AB butter in this case they're the owners but an AB butter in this situation to be uncomfortable at first I mean you know we we deal with it all the time when we put a new Trail in you know we had a lot of like immediate push back and then a year or two later you know they see nobody is wandering off the trail nobody is being nefarious you know and and they get more comfortable with the situation so you know that kind of reaction is is a very common it's it's a common thing for for folks to feel you know especially if they're not people that maybe use the woods themselves you know um trying to have a hunting conversation with somebody that is uncomfortable with hunting the same type of you know it's don't fing get far well I thought that was incredibly valuable and thank you David for sharing that discussion but just like having the input when putting it on the table and just let's work on it together you know I appreciate people coming out you know getting involved okay so yes um but I I think we got look at the um the numbers on our agend let me it's okay um okay we want to talk about the website that be good I'm just going to get my and just s thank you for coming too I wanted to make sure you all are know I S was also hi it just to learn a little bit more about the work but um The Hope and plan is stti will be helping the town with the open space recreational Plan update which is required uh by towns to complete in order to be eligible for grant funding for open space work and newberries is out of date um and a lot of all of you in the room have sort of got reignited with the hope of having that be a project you know stuff like this is also important thinking about the website but updating the town's plan is a goal that has been around since it went out of date which was quite a while going out so um yeah so hopefully C is going to be able to help the committee with that work you okay um well I probably don't have enough of these so you're going to have to share them oh you got one okay this is what I sent out um right and I guess this is the way that um I'm suggesting the the narrow column which appears on the website itself um should now be um if I can right go to my my copy here um okay all right um and you know the comments I made when I sent it out to you essentially was that my idea here is to try and take the website from being essentially a kind of passive statement into it inviting you know activity and also inviting you to go on in other words not to stop there um and so you know that was the sense of of what we I felt needed to do um and so then from there one would then go to the next that's part of it which would be something which doesn't actually exist you get these I sent them out I think I'm not sure that separate email a couple weeks ago a little while ago anyway um and so the exploring open space would be a panel currently our website is arranged like all of them on the town website which is has a series of panels down the side and I think our has two or three maybe something like that yeah um yeah and so my idea would be that this would go up to be yeah the first one right um and uh so okay we go this is right um and I you know one of the things just occurred to me in all of our talk over these last several months is that open space is not a very clear idea um it actually it's very interesting it without going into too much history it actually has roots in one govern John winr who essentially came here and saw all this open space because he didn't understand what he was looking at he didn't understand that the people who lived there their attitude to the world in which they Liv was not what it was to the people who came from England who and who didn't see it being worked on Etc and I think in some funny way that survives today because if you talk to people about open space somehow open space is oh it's where they didn't do anything where there isn't anything um or where somehow they haven't developed it yet in other words it's it's not positive very often it's very often negative in in the sense um and so that's why I thought the idea my idea anyway is to jump right in and say well this this is what we think open space is about and you don't have to agree but at least it puts off us into a situation of being able to I think answer to what we're doing as a committee and and so that's what this is intended to do um whether it does it or not I'm not entirely sure um and the big question is which is probably a little down the the line TimeWise is should we eventually have our own website um and I'm wondering whether for lots of reasons we should um only because um the town website has a lot of problems let's put it that way limitations uh yes it has limitations it also has sort of a certain kind of lack of coherence let's say and I what I did was to sort of wand through and say okay so where are the maps and one of the things is if you're going to one of the things for example that was so great once trying to think what it's called what the green belt thing called or yeah Bel go yeah Green Belt go yeah which has been out there for about what 12 months maybe a little more a couple of years yeah two I think two years now yeah right and I mean it has its little problems too in terms of how it sometimes behaves particularly on a phone but the great thing is you can get there immediately you get answers you you you you know and you can also explore you you you you can fall over things right and that's what I thought would be a real nice thing to have and that is that somebody could in fact end up knowing more about new's Open Space than they set out to find out that that should be a goal that we have somehow that's sort of exploring thing and learn like yeah inviting exploring exactly yeah like that um so um what do you think so I actually really like what you did I like your approach making it more inviting to the public drawing them in I'd like that build on this too a little bit like the one thing that we don't cover where we should cover why is open space so important to the community because people don't understand like they think that some people might think like building nice houses is better for their tax whatever when in fact sometimes it's has a negative effect so preserving you know Ral you know neighborhood people move here for that reason and so it's important to preserve that um so there's a lot of I mean there's a lot of of information about that from that angle too that we get add this that would be really informative I think um and then in terms of developing a website um it so that and we so if you don't know how to do one I don't Sometimes they come out maybe not great but if you hire somebody if we could get funding in some way to actually design what you're speaking of and that might be the best approach to something that would be professional so something that we can kind of have as one of our you know things that we want to do and then look for that opportunity to fund that right yep I don't do you know their Open Space page do are you talking about their their public one so they use the template but bu they have more but they also have one that's more what we were talking they have another I was just going over this is they do a good job keeping their a it's not it's not too AUD it's too if somebody is skilled enough to access for square they can build a very very nice website a lot of time money right yeah my son does this stuff not advocating him he does he do he does it in hours and it's done yeah so it's it's it's not as arduous as it used to be in terms of funding and getting access to people and getting space in the world you have to have a little bit of money to maintain it right there's a hosting but setting it up in building is not right no and and it's not me yeah I mean I do have a background in web development whether it's uh Square for square there's word press there's Wix there's these these sites you he so yeah know we could also start with something to augment the town site just maybe if we wanted something that's a little more open form visual visual exact maybe that's a good ask a movie question um the of or street is the Great Meadows yeah is that under your yeah okay so when I got to town I was going to buy C from so I started looking around what am I buying what am I buy is it all conservation buying there you know we think somebody going to come in with bul a month and start building more condos know close down the town I just got in so which is what happened on the rest it was you know there's I looked it when I was buying and I started looking I wanted to know more about great metal Farm not a lot no not real easy to get to I started navigating I mean it brought me has lots of issues it brought me there and I started poking around like I'm not getting can I go there can I where do I park okay so I went busted through the gate you know I got there and I kind of going down the road I get down this little tiny place I have a truck yeah I'm like okay am I in the right place I can barely turn around another car in there somebody was out hiking or whatever so I was forced to go through the open field gate because that's where the hay field is and I was like okay I can't turn around any unless I turn around over here I didn't want to but I did because it was like either that or I had to back all the way out which is nuts and I thought I'm in the wrong place but I don't think I was no no you so the presentation on the web led me to believe that there was a bit more to that I might actually find a group of people over there on a good day but I don't think I would because it' be very difficult so hidden Jem we're with you point it's not it's it's you have to go you have to be seriously interested and finding out about it and D in there is a there is a document that was put out on the by the massach by the state of Massachusetts and somebody did geological survey years and years and years ago about the rock formations in Newberry and it's fascinating wow it's fascinating and if you get a GPS and you don't find these places uh they're all over and they're out on your um the trail trail there's a bunch of that out there the old mines and stuff they outcroppings and different things but you really have to hunt and pet for this stuff it's not it's not um so yeah just a user's experience I'm trying to find open space and new lived over on Hover Street for a year or two two years and thank you for Town Hill Old Town Hill thank you so much I spent an entire winter snow shwing over there it's just gorgeous out there always has been it's just good work yeah I don't know how the folks that live in those beautiful homes think when I go walking through their backyard I now have some interest in what they think but yeah they didn't shoot at me so I guess we're all right yeah well I I appreciate that perspective as a new Resident and I think that's very you're echoing a lot of the earlier conversations this group of people have had which is we know we have varying levels of knowledge about how amazing the Open Spaces in this town but for a new resident or for residents who got turned on the outdoors during Co in a different way or for different kinds of users how really you know Newbery it's big it's a big question we have Plum Island beach we have Great Meadow we have new we have new things and old things so part of that work I think it is what we're talking about like websites the plan itself creating maps that are usable like all those things are like really it's it's good also Liv on for and way on the D another year in my life but there's um you bring up a good point I went looking for Access just different access other than the stuff I already knew about and I brought up all all trails and it has all the trails that are behind Governor da on it interesting not so much that you could search for them but if you go to the map they're clearly marked all trials is is uh really weird in that it's um contributed socially yeah in other words people can put information on trails that really are are not specific to the property and I can tell you very simply that that has happened multiple times at alltown hill and in one case we had a whole group of kids who were working to develop a mountain bike course that was in an area that was no intention to have trails at all and all of a sudden it appeared on all trails and it was like common property so yeah I think one of the things that strikes me is that we could use that side panel in a much more active way than it's being used because you just mentioning Plum Island you want to get information about Plum Island from the town website about the first thing you get is will you have to have a parking permit to park there and give the fact there are what nine spaces if you're lucky um but nothing else you know very little information and I think part of it needs you know we we need to deal with that as well um so that it would be much more of a One-Stop shop kind of you know situation that it currently is um because I think currently it looks as so the only thing the open space committee does is to write a plan and as all of you know my initial reaction to that was pretty negative and it's very interesting that um we're doing a lot of other things and writing a plan aren't we yeah okay all right so um how do we move forward with this in the sense of do we want to have a more complete uh what shall I say yeah a more complete change for the website before we start to change some things or do we start to change it with some small increments like using these these things what do you think well I think that we can in there's some low hanging food here really simple things that we can do you want to move on some tax on the website and update that so it's more welcoming and we can drive more interest and I'd say maybe that's the first approach but I do think that um the quicker we can get the plan done the quicker we can move on to bigger and better things too so I just don't want to lose focus on like the first step that one of the first things that we really should be keying in on is trying to figure out a timeline and a schedule and how we're going to get this plan done because this is to me is like something's kind of hanging over us that I just kind of want to get out of the way so we can move on to bigger better yeah so my that's good segue to one comment I wanted to make which is I wonder if it might I want to float the idea of like if a couple of you wanted to work with me and S to kind of do some of that like timeline work outside of this monthly meeting I know that would be very helpful to me because this work though I love it is not my full-time job it's about 5% of what I do for the town so it's a little bit here and there as I can so to have a little bit of focused time thinking and making that plan and then sort of like the subcommittee like reporting back to the committee I think that would really help so I mean I was going to respond to your email um it's whatever crazy holidays all that stuff anyways um a scope of work is like the first thing that um I just like to talk St and figure out exactly what your abilities are and then budget like what can we do I actually printed out the SC work from Mar Valley and I'm like well this is a great start for us like kind of here to get it done and then we can start dividing this up and then trying to figure out like you know obviously like I think like City would be great um for like orchestrating everything like we're going to be here working and getting what she needs and she can start kind of putting it together and then we have money at Mar Valley sub that out identify you know that's kind of what I'm thinking and I would be and I'll volunteer I think that would be great I mean same and I've had several conversations and I it's on me to solidify the budget but there is a budget I think it's in the range of 10 to 12 hours a week which isn't a lot but like and maybe a little more that we're I'm still working it through with um the Town Administrator but I think that would having a regular Point person whose you know focus is only this with the support of you know myself and know in the office um would really get us moving in a good way so and Allard so where are we on this young lady see is here oh being down the end of the table see I was you know and a bit surprised by our guests tonight I didn't know they were coming in such numbers but that's great um so so we've kind of talked through like starting up in January is sort of okay where we are where we and so you're talking about essentially you being a 12-hour person is that what we're talking about yes and is that something you're comfortable with in terms of your own time and and how that works for you yeah yes I mean we've talked about it a whole bunch um and I'm I'm interested in the processes that happen at this level so and um she's been really helpful at getting me in the door with um learning about town planning so um and she was super helpful with finding a way for me to be involved so okay yeah so that's I think that's about the the scope that we've decided on was about like 10 hours week do what Bill mentioned about taking the mirac valley planning committee scope of work yeah there's a lifting it piring it yes yes a man timeline in it essentially we haven't G over that I haven't basically has like you know Maps engagement uh you know writing uh you know just a Ada assessments like it just it's the work break breaks out the what's required by the plan and it's outlined by the Department of Conservation of Sciences of services rather which is yeah you know it's going to be over I guess approve you have to submit to this so this is what they tell you to do and so they just kind of you're looking at this is the attachment that we oh okay right the yeah there's workbook I do think was saying I mean as project manager coordinator whatever you want to call it right it's it's inv a lot Parts kind of that I would ask is that um is she is she going to have a contract or what yes okay so that enables a relationship between the town and mvpc to be official so you see what I'm saying all C doesn't work for mvpc no I know but what I'm saying is that that they most of the time need to work either with Town employees or with official committees and so well I was still as well right okay okay but it will be possible yes for her to be working directly with with the people there yes and I said I'm thinking about that because have you ever been to mvpc in ail by a chance no okay well they're going to find it's a super group people for one thing uh and I think um it might be very useful for a conversation to take place where they explore our needs through you so that you understand what what their potential is because their potential is very deep in a whole bunch of areas which until you actually talk to the people um you know Steve the guy who runs for example the the whole you know data world has been there a long time and he's very knowledgeable and can tell you you know why things don't work and how things other things work incredibly well so yeah yeah I think that's a great comment I did have a good conversation with Adrian Lennon who's the new program manager for the environmental program at mbpc and she's done a lot of work on open space plans and as a background so she offered if you once we get organized if she would come to our meeting or just meet with me and S and talk through stuff and just like download her right right all her experience yeah so something like that even we have these hours that are for support of dat sort of basic technical assistance but this could fall right yeah would this fall under that yeah I think so local technical assistance that's just kind of providing hours in a right because I think one of the tricks is learning how to ask the right questions so that you generate as much response other is the bang for the B kind of situation if you ask the right questions you're going to get it much further down the line than you know and and so that that's why working directly with them I think is is a real you know which would means a little travel perhaps on your part because maybe going there is is you know more productive and eventually than email and phone and other things great terrific well I'm sorry I appeared to be asleep lot and I was trying to make know figure out who was who yeah we've discussed before that there's a there's a lot of the text Data existing in other documents in town too between the the master plan which is fairly recent the municipal vulner vulnerability plan yeah but I think there was a third one to anyways yeah finding the information from these existing plans that are relevant to the open space plan so we're not Reinventing the wheel and and wasting time with that where we we literally have the the same paragraph that's needed in another document in town and there somebody that can can spend some time kind of you know com combing through that and seeing where we can take you know existing uh information from that that doesn't need updating or anything like that you know so you know even a lot of the maps that are required in the open space plan are going to be very similar to ones that are in the master plan and some things are are never going to change like Town geology is never changing the geology is what it is we have that map already we don't need to spend money with mvpc to recreate a map that we already own that they've already generated you know things like that so you know if we find out we only need mvpc to make two maps for us you know now we know we're only going to spend X on that and can use some the other money for other areas we might need them for too you know so I think we can kind of really home in what right you know what actually needs to be you know researched or or updated in the that's not existing somewhere else so be very targeted with I think having somebody that can help kind of pull that information already together so that we can say okay you know in section four we need this and in section five we need this instead of being like we need to update all of section four and section five and having that feel overwhelming to the commit to try to approach you know I think that's that would be very helpful to us it's almost a task L right yeah absolutely because we don't need to spend time you know I didn't send you that map yet I'm still working you're so good okay just I think yeah well one of the things that you know I would just simply add what Mike said is that it is a bit less intimidating when you do that comparison between the master plan and it's very lucky that we have a very upto-date master plan because the same thing happened years and years ago except they were running in Tandem and the previous master plan was 20 5 years old I think or something like that so we were dealing with back in 83 or something we were dealing with a lot of updating and and that took a lot of time so I think a lot of that work is is already kind of in in hand we also just I know what it was we just uh approved the final Hazard mitigation planate approved by this meeting um yeah so and the housing production plan done which honestly is important to open space because of that question of where are you prioritizing building housing versus conservation so we're in good shape right yeah moad so uh are we ready to move on to um reports from people yes and I guess just one of the people's me just sort of an open Agenda item for any other well right okay um so I will just I'm going to just say I do need to leave around eight and I don't know if others do need to leave feel free I just want to you will not be being rude if you need to head on to whatever is nextons from a wire soon as you leave yeah so I've got um okay so I went to two things and let me the first one would be I went to a meeting of the um L green group okay um and out of that came a map and once again um I'll explain the map um okay uh right um yeah well all right this this is a little sort of you know I can all right so I met with them because it it is clear from a lot of things that they are dealing with the lower green which is an open space okay and I was concerned about what they might be doing and how they might be doing it okay um what you're looking at is basically um blots that that exist on the lower green and you can gentlemen um and you're looking at the hatching which is what they think will comprise the a potential local historic district now a local historic district um I I give you a very brief pricey is basically a district which comprises a bunch of uh of specified Lots almost all of them will have buildings on them the buildings will have architectural and preservation conservation value and that and if the town in fact accepts The Proposal of a local um historic area then what happens is it has to go to the select board the select board has to take it to town meeting and town meeting has to pass it by 2/3 um though that is a tough upward climb in many ways um they in the early days the people on the committee got a reaction from a uh past select board member who basically said if it's town meeting and it's 2/3 you won't get it through and if it involves money you won't get it through well okay it doesn't involve money but it does involve 2/3 um currently the committee has a very small um number of people on it it has three residents who are all AB Butters to the lower green at all owners of houses which have historic significance and it has two additional members one of whom is a staff member of staric New England uh and one of whom is um the director of old Newbery the museum uh Bethany gr who is probably one of the best local historic or history experts we have around very knowledgeable and she's related to practically every founding father of New Breed that you can imagine uh um very delightful gifted person anyway um there are issues with the committee in the sense that it doesn't represent any more other than a Butters currently okay and therefore you could it could be seen as a kind of Mim committee and in fact one of the whole issues with local historic districts which are by the way um clearly set out legally by by state legislation so I met with them and um we went through a number of things and what you see on this map okay let me explain some of the markings thank you on the map the two little stars on the map okay um are in lots that they haven't contacted the owner okay now interestingly the the big one the bottom here is actually all marsh land okay and for it to be included in the um in their area is really questionable um the the other one they have been unable to get a response from the homeowners and a little digging around the registry of deeds and a few things it's pretty clear that there are some issues I think with the homeowner or homeowners who may be a to the original owner um anyway they would like to include both of those lots um the one the small one at the top is one that um I think certainly the the house is of great interest however there are a couple of other issues here you can see I've check marked three large lots that is actually Oldtown Hill okay part of the the Oldtown Hill area and there were no buildings it has makes no contribution within the normal sort of constraints of the historic area um and I'm fairly sure that the trustees who at this point have actually um said that they support the effort in principle would not support or go for the idea of these three lots being included in the local historic district uh because it for lots of reasons which have to do with how they acquir that particular property and what the legal ramifications are um they're on by the trustees they the three ones with the check Mars yeah are owned by the trustees the current chair of the planning of the of the committee actually his house is the the single Square lot in the corner there okay uh which overlooks the lower green um they will have to come up with a set of uh what shall I call them uh rules and regulations let's call them uh as to what the power of the local historic district has to enforce essentially what you can do to to buildings which are within the district and they commonly have to do with fenestration doorways fencing roof lines chimneys this kind of thing uh at this point I don't know quite why I pressed them on this I met with the chair and the vice chair and I think it's because they know that whatever choices they make are going to be challenged by probably people who are willing to go along with this as an idea but don't really know what it means my concern about this is very simple and that is if this goes to town meeting and the they're being encouraged I think foolishly by the select board to take it to town meeting next year 2025 I'm almost certain it'll go down it won't get a 2/3 vote unless it's so vague that it doesn't have any real teeth to it and then the state will reject it because even after the town is approved the state essentially has to approve it too um the reason for my concern is if that happens it will become very difficult for us to advise what I think we're agreed should happen and that is that the upper and lower greens which are not in any way preserved or there's no permanent conservation restriction on either of those technically the town could sell them tomorrow if the town moved to do that there's nothing that prevents them plus the the uh large lot that touches the river here is the town landing and I think that would be included too in open space well if that happens I think it would Prejudice anything that could then happen to the upper and lower Greens Plus it also was it confuses the issue because a lot of people think because the upper green is a historic district National Historic District which has very few um teeth at all okay that somehow we don't need to do anything about the op of green which is not true at all in terms of long-term um protection so um at this point I had asked them to send me because they obviously have a list of the properties with pictures and some idea of what they know about the properties and I think they seem to perhaps be using information from the assessor records which in many cases have very sketchy and quite erroneous um ideas of when houses were first on these various sites but I haven't got that information from them um so uh that's pretty well that one question you may not even know the answer this but if they were to include the the boat ramp yeah wouldn't that limit what they could do so if they ever wanted to put in a new Harbor mon house or something right now it's that junky Trail but what if they wanted to improve on the W would they be under like serious restrictions um it doesn't restrict building it restricts the nature of the building or could and if it's if it's properly drawn and they would have have to do this with you know consultation from somebody who was you know what should I say professionally um responsible for that kind of historic preservation work I I don't think it would um because you could in fact use it the the reason for including it and I think I thought about it anyway is because the do house which is that red house which sits up there its viewscape is right down to the water there and the it it in fact owes quite a lot of property around that that whole area so um I you know but that is an issue but that issue would be would not come up in our case if we was looking to preserve it simply as open space which is what it is currently right now if that were to limit I I I very much doubt whether you're going to see anybody building a harbor Master's house down there I don't know I can't you know who knows but you know but I think there are there's there's something about that a lot about how it was conveyed to the town and there's some language that I thought existed in the deed about it being a park or something yes right yeah and I yeah it's on the list of things I'd love to dive into um but uh anyway so I I guess I'm why are they including properties potentially that do not have historic buildings on them because there's something about the landscape itself that adds to the historic well okay I can't speak for them I can only speak for my impression my impression is they would like to shift the sort of public discussion for it for them to be able to talk about the historic and cultural value of having a local historic dist which is perfectly you know perfectly true and therefore they talk about the fact that old to Hill is this sort of presence which looms over the thing and the fact that Mrs Bushi is so much part of the history because it was she Who quote unquote saved the do house actually she screwed it up that's something else because she did things to it which were very much a no no um so I think that's the idea of the open space I can't speak to the marsh thing the marsh thing doesn't make any sense to me but I would like to speak to that and then put a little arrow on the map to the little um lot you can see there at the bottom yeah yeah well that is probably the reason why we are not meeting upstairs that that is 286 high high road okay and that currently has an noi noce of intent in front of the Conservation Commission to expand the house and the driveway and it's right there in the 100 foot buffone bang um and I have no idea whether the local historic committee exploration group knows about that or whether they do in fact have a firm commitment from that owner because there would seem to me immediately to be issues that might come along but I just thought it was a supreme irony that we were kicked out of our meeting space by something that was right on of my report card to you because I had picked that up anyway that that they were in the process of thinking about building okay so well I I guess I you know any questions or anything but I I think what what circles back to me is your comments about town-owned property that may be open mhm but it's not completely clear what the future might bring right and whether we're talking about the Harbor Master site with the boat access and how there's a lot of pavement there like it's not a park you know or we're talking about like historic squares you know are two are upper green and lower green that we think will be open forever but aren't necessarily you know and just sort of sorting through those questions particularly about town-owned Parcels is a big part of this planning work because then you can really dig in as you've been doing to the deeds and the history and really ask other committees to engage in the discussion of like well what do we want to preserve forever you know or what do we want to redevelop in some way that brings you know other benefits or whatever those conversations are so um anyway it's not an easy task what the historic district committee is trying to work on um and they're there's lots of repercussions that I think trickle out into the community well you're absolutely right and the other thing which um is is true and and they were very honest about it and that was they didn't even know there was an open space committee now that we could maybe take a little blame for that but not too much I think in the sense that they had taken their concerns to the select board okay and it was the select board in fact who had um said oh okay yes well we uh and they around and discovered the needs to be essentially a committee which explores the idea of a local historic district and brings that to the town and then essentially what gets set up is a commission which is totally separate from the historical commission and has its own powers that are limited to this area so it's a you know a hard and fast kind of thing um the other part of it is that I really think that at this point and I didn't raise this until I became aware of sort of how limited it was that currently they have no one on the committee who doesn't have frankly a a financial interest the only two people who don't don't live here and are essentially you know they're there for their expertise and their knowledge but there's nobody from the Greater Community who is interested in it for its own sake so whether whether it's true or not that they're entirely self-interested I wouldn't want to accuse them of that because I don't know but it certainly looks like it from the outside to First past that's not a good you know that's that's not a good look um well it takes a lot of work to engage with enough people early enough that you can be successful at town meeting well that is a a big challenge for yeah anyone but especially volunteers who are kind of working on yeah and I think it might behoove them to I don't know whether they feel but momentarily somebody's it all happened that probably most of you can understand in relationship to the building of those five houses down Cottage Road uh which panicked everybody and they found out there were no teeth that they could you know there was nothing they could use in local um bys or building permits something like this that could really stop that uh except persuasion and they were obviously uh not able to persuade yeah so change the okay so thank you David the other quick thing is I went to the open space conference the green belt runs Saturday two two Saturdays ago um I went to two sessions one in the morning one in the afternoon the morning session was um about the integration of the use of open space Planning and Development together with affordable housing ding ding ding right and we had a presentation by a couple of people from the town of Stow um which is west of Boston just inside 49 um the same population size as ourselves um and uh rather oddly from my perspective part of mapsy for God's sake The Meta metropolitan area planning Council and you know I MSI of course ate a lot of Metro Boston several years ago um I I think that is both a pro and con for them in that they have some constrictions and some not some advantages as a result anyway um the F from Stow essentially explained uh how they had worked uh to achieve essentially something which nonprofits in the state have done which is when you were kind when you have a situation where somebody takes their land out of 61 we've just had that happen a couple of times here um you then get an opportunity for a nonprofit to get right of first refusal that can be done using a nonprofit that is both conservation focused and also not the same group uh it also can be housing focused by state law and so this is what they did with a golf course which huge area of their Town some beautiful property and they ended up uh with a fairly complicated process essentially developing the bottom along the road several Lots which of which I think that were maybe doing this top of my had seven or eight lots and three of those were affordable and and tied up to be affordable in perpetuity and the way in which the Lots were developed meant that essentially the the open space behind it behind those lots was protected from anything else happening which was you know a clever piece of planning um the town is fascinating from my point of view I spent I spent good half a day investigating their website they are um very conservation focused very open space focused they work in very very well across boards and committees and when they move to do this they managed to raise funds that would scare the pants off our select board frankly in terms of how they they did it and the speed with which they did it um um and I would uh recommend to you looking at their um website because they interestingly have just finished an open space plan and a master plan recently enough now they're dealing with a very different Community from ours in some ways but it does have some parallels in terms of its size and in terms of some of the issues they face um and I just think the way they've done it is is and their history um and and their awareness as a community and their willingness to work as a community in a way be perfectly blunt about it I don't think this community ever has shown really um for lots of reasons anyway so that was one session the afternoon session was about chapter 61 and that I brought back for you because it's the um Mass thing do you have that um I have a PDF of it but not you're welcome to it yeah thank you it's um 61a is I don't know whether you gentlemen know about it but it's the the agricultural or you know forestry um uh chapter which enables you you essentially to get a reduction in your taxes if you're you know raising corn or growing a forest or whatever it may be and um it was very useful in terms of how the process works and and how uh how it doesn't work frankly in a number of areas what emerged was it was very interesting that a number of people in the group who were in that session were from open space uh committees not unsurprisingly and when we were talking about engaging Town committees and the process the process includes the fact that the number of people have to be informed on one of those groups among is the Conservation Commission and the planning board have to be told when someone intends to take something out of 61 um and it turns out now the Green Belt Conference involves primarily people from Essex County there were I think several other people there but most of us were from ESS County I as a result of some discussions we had in in the group discovered that three other towns and I can't name but one and that's Middleton because I didn't get where the other people were necessarily from who have open space committies have a mandatory structure that involves that there has to be a member from the Conservation Commission from the planning board and a the type person from the select board um and I found that you know in view of My Views coinciding exactly with that and then someone a lightful elderly J said and from the Council of nature in other words in his town the Council on Aging is prescribed to have a member on the open space committee and in view of some of the comments We Got Tonight from your your neighbors I I think that's understandable makes a lot of sense because open space I think is very important uh to my age group yeah yeah so was very worthwhile Saturday I spent sounds good yeah thank you that was good stuff okay that's it can we move to pick the next date the next dat January well okay I I guess what I did with my calendar was just say do it every did did it work that way uh Wednesday yeah so it comes out actually to be the 15th because the first is a Wednesday the eighth is a Wednesday and the 15th is one we're Tuesday now David you're Tuesday people right okay all right1 would be after is that the king yeah the 21st you're right if we do the Third my never mind the mountains are bur in snows can help Frank I think you're looking good it's going to get cold some gra to Woods like a week ago they got dumped on early yeah I saw that J you're just going to be want to drive yeah and I'm okay cuz I love to hike so I'm just going up to like sandwich you know won be snow it'll be icy but Sandwich New Hampshire that's where I'm from okay a great sandwich yeah yeah yeah I I did it this summer was great it was a nice do we um want to do 6 again 7:00 leave a little TBD I will 6 o' works for me we're here late on Tuesday so what but if it's really not good for all then I'm happy to do so it works as long as I know it's not going to go to eight from Hill yeah right okay what Earth happened with take can go home y motion I was convinced thise was saturated with re