e e e e e all right well we can call our Public Works committee meeting to [Music] order unless for somebody online it doesn't appear there's anyone here for
open Forum um next thing I have on our agenda is to approve the minutes from our June meeting do I have a motion or any questions uh all in favor all
posed minutes are passed um my next item that I have is um we're looking for volunteers for a downtown master plan committee I presented I think I had put some
documents in your packets regarding that does anyone here have an interest in being on that commit how large of how large of a committee is it Tom sure what let me look if it's not in there
um I'm happy to answer that if that's helpful oh go ahead hi everyone good evening um we're looking to about six to eight AC cross between business owners chamber um some committee members so about six
to eight if that helps are you interested Tom well yeah I think that um somebody uh from the public works committee should be represented on
the on the downtown committee downtown master plan that is nice of you to volunteer well no I think you'd be good I don't think there's any motion necessary just you know one or all of you'd like to be
on the committee I guess that's there's probably room D for one more I'm too old H okay I I think I'd like to volunteer for that okay yeah certainly I think it's reasonable um you know uh schedules
and what they are hoping that you know people can make most of the meetings but no expectation if you can't make all of them we understand schedules and things so hopefully that's not a deterrent either so I'm I'm assuming Jenny that
that this it's kicking off or it already kicked off no our first meeting will be August 21st okay and then there'll be a combination of inperson and zoom meeting as well and probably about six of those in
total throughout the rest of the the time okay so as I'm looking at this map it on the right hand side is the kickoff right and then it goes how long does it go through next February I believe so yes so there will
be October I had my calendar here I must have Miss or so okay I was I was reading it wrong it goes across not up and down okay so August 21st first one actually it goes through
yeah through Feb okay yeah all right well um I think that's all we need to do for that item so thank you Tom I appreciate it I'll be couch uh see so our next agenda item
is the lift station one rebuild engineering proposal so I'll kind of let bill um outline that for you or any of you have any questions already lined up sure I guess based on the the last um
public work committee meeting that we had I tried to separate out the design portion and separated that into a preliminary engineering feasibility and the design portion and try to list some of the scope for the preliminary
engineering work um guess I don't know how much detail you want to know but that's kind of what I did so um is this preliminary engineering is that what you're call following the facility or feasibility yes
okay well iess I guess personally are you done yeah okay thanks um Tom could you give us kind of a oh a brief history of that lift station when it was built and you know how how it has been working and so on
when the condition of it now so we have some idea what we're talking about sure so what what's going on with this is um we're this is uh one of the two main lift stations uh this one and and number three that we recently rebuilt in
2020 uh this is the other main lift station and this is on Hazelwood um it functions okay um it does need a new um control panel uh we're looking
forward to that and we'd like to make it so that it is uh so it has um dedicated backup generation right now we have a back a portable backup generator that we share with it um what we're finding is the logistics to move that generator
around or getting such that it's difficult to keep up sometimes um so having the Lift Station 3 already has this setup where it's got its own dedicated backup generation so this project would add had that um we're
looking at capacity of this lift station um we believe we might be upsizing the uh W well of this um lift station similar to what we did on number three we upsize the
diameter um trying to give it a you know longer cycle time between pumpings um during my tenure here this is the only lift station that is backed up into a house and
that's been a few years ago but it h it has happen so by increasing the uh wet well size we're hoping to also give us more reaction time if something goes wrong to get files or whoever here to
deal with with a backup there so um this station will also be accept in flow from a potential new lift station 12 which is going to be um just off 371 just south of
holiday um and that's got a pretty large service area so this this proposal will detail what that flow is expected to be and we'll forecast what the flow for this lift station will be um into the
future um and make a recommendation on the size of of um what it should be going forward based on that so uh what how close are you to capacity now on as it is right
now I mean how much could you increase it you had to I think could increase on it it's more just a giving us a little bit more of a safety factor with it is is what and then we don't know what the impact of lift station 12 will be so I don't
know if the current setup would accept all the flow from list station 12 to without being over capacity that's something that we'll be getting from bill um with this study where did uh lift station 12 come into the picture
and why was it decided to be there so originally lift station 12 was looked at um actually probably before I ever started here there were proposals for what you know as the airport property south of
holiday um it's exact location has moved a little bit but we I think it's two years ago had width look at potential for a lift station 12 that would be just off the south end of Smiley Road and that was in reaction to a project that
was being brought forth by the schaer family at that time uh they had some expansion ideas that they were looking at um so we had a service area map drawn for Lift Station 12 at that time and it would extend
from just west of Camp Lincoln Road down to I believe pretty close to Timberwood church if I'm not mistaken and then it would be West onto the airport property and North to the
77371 intersection so that's roughly the area that it would handle um there's a map here somewhere that I that you can look at I don't unfortunately I don't have it in my documents here today but Tom I think we've kind of seen this
in the past when we were looking at development you know south of schaer foods and all that and I'm just curious you know the the the projected flows you know uh
land use and density assumptions for the undeveloped properties how do how do you even go about doing that I mean we we've we've heard about you know that you know these developments are going to happen and you know then it's
you know what now almost one a couple years yeah so those calculations came from Joe dubell with width um I think they have a correct me if I'm wrong bill or go ahead if you maybe have a little more insight um I mean typically like
depending on what the zoning is that will dictate what the um basically the number of users and the number the amount of flow that's going to go to the SE the the sewer system and that's what we use in order to estimate what the flow would be to the
sanitary sewer to the or to the low point or the Force main or the lift station and yeah I mean there's it can vary depending on what the zoning is Will dictate what that flow would be coming out those properties so basically when
you're in the planning stages you you you have to plan for what maximum development you know the full load yeah we do have to make some assumptions and that's where we have to work with the city to come up with their best idea as to what that development is going to be um a lot of times you try to
overestimate as far as like if you if there's a possibility that it's going to be a certain type of Zoning for that property then that's what we use in order to determine what the the size of the um lift station or the structure or the pipe will
be the problem I see with that is that the people that do that U by that I mean the planning and zoning and and deciding what's going to be where in the city they really have no real good idea about
the utilities you know I mean they don't aren't really tuned into water and sewer and so on and generally future development is usually utility driven whereas uh whoever furnishes the
utilities either makes known what they will be developing or they already have it there I mean a good example is down in the Twin Cities that whole metropolitan area is uh determined by where the utilities exist
or where they'll be furnished by med console unfortunately here and in a lot of small towns uh future development is driven by who wants to develop what piece of land and and what happens is like on the
schaer thing uh you know you get all geared up about that to do it and then it falls through and you keep having all these things and pretty soon I think the we lose track of what the general picture was to start with and one thing
now especially when I see what they did out there east of U what the Grand View did there east of 371 um the story has always been and I've
lived here a long time is that they were never going to do anything with that well you see what happens once they clear it out and to me that looks like a real ripe area to develop even though they might say today they aren't going to tomorrow they might do it right
well if that develops you have that area you have the area behind schafers there that we talked about you've got the rle area the old airport basically and this will has those three areas well
I I doubt whether you can run a sewer or sewer those areas and run that all through lift station one you know lift station one is has a law enforc M and it's already six inch because it's long I would guess so
I'm I'm just uh sort of I'm I'm kind of with Tom I I I I I think that we're kind of pulling these things out of the air here as we plan this stuff and without a I don't
know what the city's master plan says it probably doesn't say anything other than the Planning and Zoning part of it does it show some of these things like station 12 and things like that well they shown examples of it um some
of the details have changed a little bit depending on the time you know so the original as you recall the rle property that was a 2005ish you know obviously A lot's changed in 15 years yeah so um but the
general location of this lift station 12 I think all that's done is they've shown I think then they were showing it possibly on the west side of 371 we have it shown on the east side of 371 but it is kind of the lowest point to that whole area as I
recall there would have there would likely be other lift stations that will feed into either lift station 12 or lift station one to serve some of the areas that you were calling out where the trees have been cut on the Grand View Property however most of
you know the airport property the r property as you know it will be served by L station 12 um and the area that you were talking about was schafers that could be that will be served by lift station 12 and all of that
flow was programmed by wsn to go through lift station one at that time and it so it was as I understood it it was capable of handling the flow um and I so what I couldn't say
specifically is was that with um the rebuild of lift station one so there's a little little bit more capacity there or was that as it existed at that time to me another you know there are other possibilities uh for one the that lift
station 12 the r property even the Shapers that could go up over the hill and be tied in to lift station 3 which probably won't handle all that even though it's new but you do have a force
M that goes from there all the way up to the plant over a an area that's already made for it you might say I mean' be fairly easy to put in a parallel force me I mean there are other possibilities and and I just
visualize that lift station number one here could very well be out of before AR you know before it's built all depends on what development happens here well so the build that we're
proposing for lift station one here is going to handle the flow off of lift station 12 if it's buil yeah but if that uh Grand View Property for instance develops lift station one can't handle I think we we get back to that okay what
are we building it for what's the capacity yeah and I I think what what Dill saying is very interesting you know like just looking at the Metro Area you know you build where utilities are available I mean that's a that's cost you know you're going to you're going to
build where the cost of of putting the Lots in you know you can uh sell the Lots you know with with utilities to it here it almost seems like you're you're talking about building something and they will come you know
uh it is the village you know absorbing the cost of that you know eventually it's going to be paid for by the by the people who who buy the the properties right or is this a shared cost going into it and then you got a pretty good idea of what kind of development you're
going to see in the shorter term as well as you know as it develops going forward I think in the foreseeable future um I think we have a pretty good idea that where that development would be for Lift Station 12 um lift station one was
going to be rebuilt at this time even if there wasn't a lift station 12 being built just because of its age yeah so on the advice of w Seth we are pushing this flow through lift station
one from lift station 12 um that was determined I believe to be the shortest um distance as opposed and probably the most reserved capacity as compared to lift station number three that Dill mentioned so
um you know we we did make an assumption on the density of that area around the airport property what that would likely come out as um and that's our best guess you know we've had several different entities that
are um proposing development in that area nothing yet on paper um but I think you know it would be wise for us to if we're going to rebuild this anyway to build it so that it could
handle that capacity at a future point if it goes beyond what we have shown with with the lift station 12 analysis that was done a few years ago if it goes beyond that there would be options to kind of do what Dill was suggesting and that would be a parallel Force main
running up the right away where I believe where the um well of course power line cuts through I'm not questioning the location of a lift station 12 you know somewhere down there in the hollow is obviously where you put it but I'm questioning where you pump it
too that's what I'm questioning well the nice thing about that is if if at some point in the future lift station one or the flow coming in 12 going to one becomes too great for one to take right there at the corner of 77 and
371 you could jog over with a forest main to head up up the ditch up up through the yeah the golf course like you suggest and so that I think has been um looked at but it's just not time for
that yet this is that to be an expense too so um I can't speak real well to that but I do know that it's a possibility and um before Joe Mark hen had suggested that
too with width so I think that's I had a conversation with Mark hen about the sanitary sewer system lift stations and where Force man should be and he did say that um a lot of these areas that you're talking about have been looked at and um
basically analyzed in a feasibility conceptual level to figure out what the best location or where improvements need to occur and I think the conclusion that came out of all that was um keeping LIF station
one and see that's what I would like to see though Tom exactly what he said I'd like to see this feasibility study look into that because it's all part of it I don't I don't know what's
driving um changing putting in basically a new lift station number one but it doesn't sound like it's something that has to be done tomorrow um I tomorrow no but very soon
well it's a it's going to be a very expensive lift station because of where it's located right and it's going to be expensive to build because of where it's located right and I haven't heard a whole lot of reasons to do it
tomorrow well I'll give you one I I think I mentioned it at the start of the meeting that the panel the electric panel on it is okay and that could easily be replaced it's setting up above ground that could be replaced without spending over a half a million dollars
and we want to add backup generation that could also be done if we're going to go through that expense we want to size and build the panel and the generator to deal with a lift station one the size that it'll be in the future not what it is
today well I'll bet you that that can all be done for a heck of a lot less than a half a million dollars oh I would imagine you're right but a lot less it would be size for today's flow not tomorrow's well a control panel doesn't
really have a whole lot to do with today's flows you know I mean it's all electrical components generators the same way all your chin yeah all you're changing is the horsepower the pumps right that's the other thing uh we're woring about these pumps recycling all
the time you know you can buy a lot of pumps new pumps for a half a million dollars sure can and that you aren't going to put that station in for a half a million dollars I'll bet you it'll be more like 700 so I guess in the other question would be then what would the
force mean from elicitation 12 to to directly to the plant cost too so there that's but I believe Joe Joe with width had examined all of that and so the recommended rout he came up with was through lift station one I understand
that but there was never put in black and white on paper um um at least if it has I haven't seen it if I if I could I'm sorry to interrupt I don't have a hand raising icon to to put on my screen um so I just pulled up so there was a
feasibility report completed by Joe dubel in November of 20121 so that's probably one piece to this that um I think is pretty extensive that would provide information and one suggestion would be to have um whether
that's bill or you know with Seth I'll just say maybe review that update it if needed and present that to the committee um and possibly even starting to do the same thing with lift station one I think that's what the committee is may be looking for is that similar feasibility
report to see how those two can marry together and then it's sort of a big picture planning Next Step how do we coordinate all that so we do have some information that can be presented I didn't catch what you said at the start you say a
paper was presented or something a feasibility report was completed it was yes um so perhaps the committee just needs a presentation to go over some of the specifics of that report maybe that's helpful yeah that'd be fine I didn't
know it was done well I think it would be a review for this committee too because I think we talked about this in terms of the schaer development I believe that's where that came from so I think you've seen it you probably just like me I don't remember the details of it so I I just feel that uh if we're
going to do a feasibility study here that you know all of this should be included if it isn't if it hasn't been done you know this is the time to do it right yeah I mean the idea with this preliminary engineering is to review all the information that we have that we
know of which is the feasibility report for Lift Station 12 some of the stuff that Mark hen knows that he told that he's told me about um and then analyze what we know about the development and what's going to happen um by lift
station 12 well it's just part of the feasibility report but yeah so we do know that there are some things that I can't speak of today that are going to need to flow into a lift station 12 if it soon
now the city also has the option to say a particular area will not be sewered and they can say this you know you're going to have septic systems you're gonna if you're going to have septic systems then you have to spread out your housing but they can do that
you you you are not forced to put sewer in every part of this city no but I think in this case the lift station 12 is primarily serving um commercial development along 371 yeah I'm not talking about 12 I'm just saying the city could do that in their master plan
they could yeah so um where would you like us to go here that just come back at this again next month [Music] or well um I guess
personally um most of what is mentioned here u in this preliminary engineering looks like you know it's it should be included I agree with most of it couple things in there that are really Design Elements which you know wouldn't be done
now but basically uh I would just like to see it a little more comprehensive I think what what Jenny was saying that uh maybe bill you can you can help out on that but maybe to to
to pick up that that feasibility stuff stud that was done what three three years ago something like that maybe bring it back and and just so we can kind of re you know renew our understanding of what's going on and the
type of development and and the capacity that we're talking about for 12 and then you know for you know that's tied in with this rebuild of one would that be yeah we could we do that by sure we could by next month yeah
I wish I had direct access to a computer here now I can okay punch up on the screen for you but unfortunately I don't so I mean I remember looking at it and that's you know I think I made that comment early on that I remember talking about it when we were talking about the
development of that area south of uh you know schaffers and back there but just not the details could we do that as part of the proposal for list station one
one or do or want to do that we could do that before or do that um presentation of list station 12 as part of the the preliminary engineering portion
yeah it it can be part of it I guess um could I interrupt quick go ahead yeah this Joe so back with that uh list station number 12 with the potential
development uh with the schafers family on that land back there and stuff um you know I was directly involved with that whole thing but even since then wsn has now said that L station 12 doesn't need
to go in that location um that it was proposed back then um you know there's new information um then there was no master plan like you guys are talking about like forgive me
but I believe it's Gil correct talking about it I can't see on my phone um that yeah we we have to have a full plan for lift station one and or lift station 12
and a whole comprehensive picture on how they're both going to work together and stuff uh just because you know even last time that lift station was going to get put in when uh Smiley Road was redone all the way across in front of schafers
and that and that Maine was going to get extended on down there and that never happened and stuff and so without some sort of Master comprehensive plan like you guys are talking about I I think we're just wasting wasting more time and and uh
this leftt station number 12 Ty into number one um that hasn't been figured out now for four or five years and that's why the schafers family that's why Grand View I'm not trying to speak out of turn but that's why nobody in that area has gone forward with any
developments is because this can't get figured out at a city level well I tend to agree with him what what do you suggest suest Joe well I I suggest I agree I these the I think a full new study needs to be gun be done
just because uh even uh couple months ago with the city looking at purchasing the land across the road wsn just presented a new location for left station number 12 and so that's new information than it was three years ago and
so um I feel every time this is gets brought up uh you know the uh the targets moved new new set of people from wsn looking at it and here we go we got a whole new ideas and now it can be done
differently and I'm just going hey like I I agree it needs to be put in black and white on some paper and stuck to because it's it's changed so many times and we're just wasting our money without a comprehensive plan on how this sewer
is going to go for the for the entire city so yeah I don't I don't know what that plan looks like but I agree with what you guys are saying we need to we need to um look at it and uh get an actual plan put together on paper on how
it's all going to lay out all the way through and then and then from there a timeline on what should be done in the corre the correct sequence so we're not wasting more money or we're not just pairing up a road that we just paved two years ago because we got to extend the
Force main down because we didn't do it two years ago when we asphalted the road again well I guess I can't say much other than lift station 12 as I know it is the map you saw yeah that's the information I was asked to work with I
don't think it's critical where the station is located frankly it's where you don't where it pumps to you know it could pump to several places uh depending on you know how things are developed what opened my eyes
was when I saw this uh work that Grandy is doing and I'm not trying to put any words in anybody's mouth but it sure opened my eyes to see what happens when you clear out that woods and the potential there and that would just
change everything if that ever started to develop so I would say this so we have asked all the potential developers in the area to provide what are they going to do and we you know we got a first Glimpse at that I guess with schafers
Grand View hasn't shared anything with us but they do hint that they want to do something and we've had other developers in the area to do the same thing and none of them want to lay you know want to give us a hint to what they want to do and and so we take our best guess and
so we we have you know we know it's Zone Highway commercial and based on that it has a you know a certain density that density was used by Joe to calculate Joe dubel to calculate what lift station 12
would produce for flow that flow was going to be introduced to lift station one that's what this yeah engineering would unfortunately our treatment plant is located on top of a hill more or less compared to the rest of the town and so we have to pump to it you know
everything and it's just the way it is and and nobody has a crystal ball so you know we're sitting here you know a couple years ago and we were working with well what schaer's going to do now we're working on a pro with a project that city is working on on the other side and maybe some other developers
projects that I can't speak to today um well so the service area to the best of my knowledge is still the service area anything outside of this would be served by an an adjoining or a different
lift station that will daisy chain into this just like it does in the rest of the city you know lift station three is fed by I think three or four different the stations to the South this will end up probably being that same thing you know if Grand de develops over on Camp Lincoln Road there's likely to be something that will pump over to here
because it it has to that's true you can only go out so far but it can't all go to lift station one as far as I'm concerned well I don't know that well I mean it could but then you'd have to put in another Force main and that's not the world's easiest place to do that maybe
and the location of lift station is you know right next to it stream it's uh it's going to be expensive to build whatever you build there right but now like the the Force main that you mention so right now that's a 6 inch I don't
know what that would have to go up to to serve much larger area I don't that's something bill has to give me an answer on however you know there's an expense to go down Hazelwood and then lower Roy with a new Force main that's where that
Force main goes currently that's one expense the other expense would be if you were developing a force main to go down County Road 77 that also has just been repaved so I think you know from that standpoint Force main to Force main I
think you you know which one's likely to be more expensive yeah but on County Road 77 you go down the ditch you don't go down the road with the force M well either way you're still adding a new Force man don't have today well
about it's possible six in would run for a number of years before it has to be upsized even if Li station one is upsized today for that flow to come 20 or 30 years from now well I think a kind of a comprehensive feasibility
study is what is needed personally and it sounds like everybody kind of agrees uh so if we're going to do that somebody's got to put in writing what's going to be in that sure and perhaps the
engineer can give us that next meeting okay what they're going to put in it okay and then we can discuss that and then go or no go okay that's my suggestion I don't know about the rest of you I agree I agree with
you Bill can you clarify for me the preliminary engineering that we have in here would that have done what Bill's asking for yeah I mean I the scope of work for that preliminary probably
wasn't um as far as like a comprehensive Citywide that was mentioned it wouldn't it wasn't metion to be like for that but um yeah the idea was to evaluate the flow that was going to come into lift station one sure and make sure that it
uh LIF station one can handle the flow and I don't I don't think you have to do the whole city but it looks like the area that's going to develop uh in the future is going to be from say BL station Sportland South you
might say on both sides of the road more or less yeah and our in this prop proposal that it it was going to use the feasibility study from list station 12 was going to use the information that we know to incorporate that in and that's what we were gonna yeah that's already
in this um preliminary engineering and I think in my mind Tom I it's just this lift station needs some work and if you're going to do the work and you're you know you want to do a comprehensive project you know get it
all done at once and it includes this you know SE in this undeveloped you know area this with lift station 12 and there's been a lapse of time now since we've talked about it so I think you know it be a good idea to bring that back and you know you know re-educate us
about what's going on down there and and then um you know feel comfortable with you know making you know a recommendation on on this uh proposal for services um based on you know some
uh information that we may have forgotten I think Joel has comment to make yeah I agree with you guys no no I agree with you guys and uh I think the biggest thing is you know I don't know
if it starts at this level or the city council level but this decision on where the sewer is going to expand how it's going to expand and how people are are going to get charged for it needs to be
set at this point moving forward because part of these discussions before have always uh at least from my experience and my dealings in the last several years you know like with the schafers family has kind of fellen or Fallen onto
the developer to take the reign of how the sewer expansion is going to go and because of that um and the price point and the way that it's set up that's why nothing's happened because right now there is no real plan for that for the
city and it's not feasible for any developer to develop the city's sewer system and that's where you know we just need to step up and take a role and say Here's Where the septics going to go here's where we want to put in the roads
and the infrastructure this has to go hand inand with what's on the wall behind you with the corridor study um for coming on and off and all that has to tie in together um but that's why it's important to get this big plan put in place because it's just not a either
it's mot that I feel like we need to coordinate that with with what we're doing and what they're proposing for uh new Frontage roads along that area too and how that would impact this whole area and timing on all this also
sounds like maybe you might have to update the master plan maybe yeah um I I guess where we're sitting right now I feel like I'm gonna have to table this so I can have some discussions with staff and um others because I just that's fair I
can't give you anything that I don't you know that isn't based on what we've already done that's fair you want to do that and then get together again next month and or that would be the plan I guess and then maybe at the same time you can discuss that
with the engineer and and somebody come up with some verbiage as to what's going to be in that feasibility study so I would have one question this might be for Joel but um you know how do we
uh you know we've gone on a density of the type of development that could happen on either side of three 71 barring a specific developer coming in with a set of plans on paper you know we don't have a crystal
ball we have to take we have to make an assumption there somewhere I think that's what was done in 2020 with right with 12 yeah and so not not a lot to my knowledge has significantly changed with
that potential Li station 12 area now Joe seems to have other information that I don't so I don't know sure where to take that yeah I guess I don't know if it's other information we could get together
sometime and talk about it but you know looking at the the plan on the wall behind you there you know that's that's the thing I think everybody's kind of I'll say waiting on or kind of um hesitant to go forward with any sort of
plan just because all the developers right now out um the way the rules are written in the city where they have to put in all the roads all the infrastructure it's not feasible for anybody to do any development right now now mot comes through puts in the roads
the infrastructure what is needed to gain access into those areas um that's going to be a real game Cher and so I would think that we would take that plan that mot has behind and try and develop
that out and lay out the sewer according to that and then and then from there I think it would be real easy to go to any of these land owners and say hey this is the potential design for the new
infrastructure now that you guys kind of know this and you would maybe have to pay for 100% of this up front what would be your vision and I think we'd get a lot more open honest answers from all these land owners if we could provide them with that information because right
now none of them want to do much because they don't know all this information so they're just they're just sitting and waiting all right well I think we're kind of re reached a little bit of an impass here so I think we're going to have to have some discussions outside of
the the meeting here to um get a better idea of a direction going forward but um so I I would ask um for a motion to table this until our next meeting so moved second all in
favor all right so moving on our next item is the 2025 Road Bond engineering proposal right so at um the last month's council meeting we had a list of roads that
were um approved by the city council to uh include in um this engineering agreement that we're about to look at you'll see them on here there is one change to be aware of um the alley on
the east side of Main Street that will be in the 2026 Road Bond um just to be aware of that that that must have been a little bit of a an oversight or not not a clear
understanding I guess but otherwise all the other roads that are on here um part of what we are proposing for a 2025 Road Bond and if you look through the agreement um it's listed out by Road what general idea of what we intend to
do um most of these roads um there's not a lot of significant change to them as far as um where they lay or the purpose of them it's it's mostly a a reclaim and a resurface um
some of them have an asphalt gutter in places we're looking to upgrade that to concrete um and I think that's outlaid in here um the one road that I know has one um little Adder to it and that is
something we would have to it' be an option that we'd have to decide and that's upper Roy Lake Road whether or not we're adding a bike path to that um right now we're proposing that that bike path would likely be um a painted bike
path on the shoulder on both sides and kind of for Bill's information because I think it wasn't real clear um we had gone on a map of future bike trail um I'd say want we had it show we had on
upper Roy we show it stopping at Roy Lane or uh Edna Lane excuse me it needs to go to the lore to the lake shore line with that um bill is there anything you'd like to say about uh the proposal
before I open it up for questions um I guess one thing is uh when you look at upper Roy Lake Road that um number one is the RightWay on that on that roadway is very um it varies all over um the
road is in some places is not in the middle of the RightWay just by looking at it um and you know and with the um with the addition
of a trail let's say um there's a very good chance that that roadway in a lot of different places would be would require easements and some additional um RightWay acquisition depending on because there's portions of the RightWay
where it's not really very wide at all um see what other um yeah and then like I said the Roy Lake roads by far seems to be the most complex of the roads that we're going to be working looking at um the the idea with most of these
roadways is like I was telling Tom is um they seem to the roadway itself seems to be like the the area where all the water drains too or um so the idea would be to get the water off of that roadway get
into a ditch or if if a ditch doesn't seem to work in that location maybe we add concrete curbing gutter to drain it along the edge of the roadway and then discharge that water someplace that makes sense um but there's a lot of those roadways where the isn't a ditch
system or any type of a method of keeping the water off of the road which the water in the roadway they don't seem to go together that kind of wrecks the binous pavement um so we we reviewed those those issues
last meeting I think when Tom you brought all those pictures to the yeah so what what I did was I Incorporated Tom's pictures and all those things that he found into the into the proposal that we have here try to identify the areas or not not
necessarily identify the areas but come up with you know like these roads are going to need this concept or this type of a um so for for these RightWay issues Bill you're gonna identify where there are RightWay issues with this agreement yeah I mean well what we the the way
that this proposal is written is that um we are not preparing it's an it would be an extra to do like uh create the property base um so we'd have to add on to our our fee for that um mainly
because you know like we didn't really know at the time if we were going to need that you know like I have a feeling that we're going to need it I'm pretty sure we're going to need it on upper Roy Lake Road but are we going to really need it on some of those other ones um my kind of my thought process or design
process would be um maybe with I think the first thing we do is we come up with alignment and a rough profile kind of a rough cross-sections kind of determine roughly what our um where we want to put the road and what the construction
limits would be and then we kind of Base moving forward with uh doing RightWay acquisition and easements and stuff like that based on our I don't know 20 30% plan kind of um to figure out where
these problem areas are going to to be what's your U estimated construction cost for all of these together um we are kind of fine-tuning it a
little bit but it was over roughly a little over three million three million for for all of them together yeah like 3 3.2 so the rightaway issues build is that directly tied to the the the trail no
the trail the trail makes it worse yeah but even the roadway itself is going to have some issues just trying to um get the the of the drainage because of the drainage issues and all that okay so kind of just a little background so in our previous Road bond that we did about
seven years ago this has been a common issue most of our roadway aren't well defined with a clear RightWay and we've had to go in and clean up RightWay issues this Bond will be no different and instead of maybe going in and doing it for the property base for
every street maybe we spend some of that time and do it on the ones that we for sure needed on like upper Roy Lake Road and um I know Chad when we were talking about easements and right away on the property base he's pretty comfortable with um a lot of the streets in the
southern part but he did say that the upper Roy Lake Road area is very would be very expensive to determine the property lines and the property base for that whole area is that why you have a 60 Grand in here for land surveying is that what you mean by land survey that
is for basically doing the toppo itself preparing doing the survey for all of these roadways land surveying land surveying and isn't the Topo part of the part of the design yes well well in this case I broke out the the land surveying
from the from the actual design yeah why is that that's just how I decided to do it um it's part of the design as far as like normally in a fee but in this case we just separated
it well when I see a total fee over a half million dollars um kind of scary but that includes the half a million is for we have included in there the in Construction Services also and the staking the what it also
includes the in Construction Services the staking yeah but that's uh 20% of the job almost that's really high uh it's less than that but well not much less 10% is 3 one com suggestion
I one one comment I did email to Tom and Tom and Bill thank you um was to consider separating those two components out to say you know design separate from um up to basically the the bid process
and then moving into the construction as a second contract we did that with the Gull Lake Trail um because yes I would agree with d it's a it's a big number and you know just taking it kind of one step at a time might be um the way to go
so we we have it that way in the past I just wanted to offer that as a as a comment to to consider for your as you kind of work through all this thanks well in the industry by that I mean the
Consulting industry in this this thing um fees in general are based on the construction cost the actual construction cost I mean it's been they've been doing that
for years and that's basically the way we did everything um rarely did a fee for both the design and construction supervision and staking go over 12% for the whole and that was
high and when you have a job like this where you have a lot of material which uh amounts to a lot of money uh you know this 20% is just just out of
line that's a way out of line that's my opinion but I base that on past experience so I I would um you know like to see you sharpen your pencil on that a
little bit I don't know how you know like Lancer being um how how many properties are are are you going to be surveying well we're not what that means or what we're doing is basically we're tooing the roadways from
beginning to end yeah there's roughly 33,200 lineal feet of Road and uh so basically you're surveying it from I don't know if necessarily right away to right away but um at least down to where the ditch or
the drainage would be down at the bottom of a hill or the top of a hill um from one end to the other um and then we would the plan was to pick up um property Corners that we could find along the survey and incorporate those into the drawing and then the 60,000
also includes creating the mapping showing all the existing surface um features and usually We call we call go for State one call and we get them to come out and locate the utilities also see in my experience that's usually part of the design it's all Incorporated
in that uh on a job like this where there's a lot of material involved uh the general Trend would be to if you if you based your fee on a percentage of the construction cost it would be a lower percentage because you have a lot
of material involved which raises the price of the job whether you put on just cbon gutter say or whether you do the whole Road in curb and gutter the engineering is almost the same all the design mixes and
all that are going to be State everybody use is the same thing so your spec is basically what the state spec is so that just uh seems to me you know to really be
high that's the only way I know to uh look at these things is based on a percentage because most engineering that I've done and and I've had a lot of experience and I know a lot of other Engineers that are in the same business
and uh we always go by the percentages to figure out roughly what our design fee should be you know and this is we use that as a guide that's this is really high well I I don't think so I think
that there's a lot of complexities in in designing this thing and coming up with the plan especially when you incorporate all the drainage things that we need to do um basically redoing the entire roadway um we're reconstructing the roadways but it's no different whether
you're putting in a whole new road or whether you're just putting in curb and gutter the design is exactly the same I disagree um can hold up just a second gentleman Jenny has a comment okay I figured out how to raise my hand
um thanks Tom so I would just I appreciate Dill's comments um and just to offer again maybe the idea of separating out the components of the proposal so we kind of Step into the first part of it um WTH has always done
a good job at coming in at or under budgets so I think historically we've been pretty conservative with uh what they estimate for costs um hoping that we you know ultimately come in you know just charge us for everything if they don't spend the time or have a need for
that um so I just wanted to offer that we um we do appreciate that approach um trying to identify worst case scenario if it's better than uh what they anticipate great we we definitely had that experience in the past with
them um so yes while costs are high it's unfortunately a struggle kind of across the board with everything um these days that things are just more expensive um based on what I looked at it was about a 9% um on the cost of the project for the
plans specs design Prem pre preliminary piece of that if that helps at all um just a perspective and as part of you know kind of chunking each of this piece out um maybe there's just a first step that you take tonight
thanks well it's almost like an open-end contract if you make the price high enough to start with you're never G to have to worry about reaching it you know if you make that estimate high enough to start with you're safe
right well I I certainly think the idea is not to come back to say oops we need to spend more money because this came up I mean that's the the the tradeoff there is is you don't want to have to come back and ask for more because we didn't account for
something um it's to try to cover all the bases and then hopefully things don't take as long or aren't as complex um but there are some you know Pro some of the components of this where we'll have to look at that right away and say how are we going to handle whether it's RightWay acquisition or
other pieces of that because that can certainly drive up cost from a design perspective Andor from a property acquisition needs we I'd want to certainly know that as soon as possible so we can address that and come up with the right solution that can be a
separate item and I understand what you're saying but the design right if you base that on the percentage say instead of coming up with a figure to start with a percentage of the actual construction cost as bid the low
bidder then say I'm I'm if I'm doing the engineering if I can't do it for that well that's tough you know that's what you're in business for to be able to do it for that and it's just a you know it's something that almost every
engineer does a Civil Engineer you know they do things by a percent of the construction cost that's the way it's done that's the way most of the contracts are and so when you just stick a you know when I see a half a million dollars
here for for this project it just doesn't make sense to me I agree with you the half million dollars seems pretty expensive for that the other thing though with this too um
you know I just look at a project like this and you know the construction services on the end of it too you know um if wsn is doing all the design and the surveying and the engineering why
are we paying them to watch themselves do the work then too I mean I don't I think that's double dipping well we're not watching ourselves we're watching the contractor to make sure that he follows the plans and
specs so we why why do we why do we have to sit there and babysit the the contractor and and pay pay for the babysitting of that I mean I don't know when the trail was getting built drove me nuts sitting there seeing
somebody smoke a cigarette just sitting there watching somebody put asphalt down I I don't know it's a waste of money in my book I if the contractor screwed up goes back spot testing there's other things but I I don't know it's it's
pretty high it's pretty high price you know one thing that I've noticed since I've been on this committee kind kind of on this line is when wood Seth gives a cost to the
city it's just accepted it's it's always accepted and the checks written and lately it just it does seem like things have been getting um a little bit has a city ever looked into hiring its own engineer I mean the amount of money that
we send to one company we could get a couple engineers and as the city's growing have we ever thought about that so I'll answer that a little bit so the county has Engineers correct they still end up hiring wsn and other engineering firms for projects like this for some
stuff so but you don't think we could save money having our own engineer I don't think we would overall no wow if they if they must get paid a lot of money so so let me qualify that if they could do all of this work yes but I
don't know that they could well that are even some of the oversight you know having a city staff member sit there and watch and say hey this is getting done correctly you know you spoke to that a little bit yourself Tom too on that last
one but yeah I don't I don't know pretty high the problem with staff watching this is this um sure I mean we could do that but who and and when because right the summertime for myself
just speaking for myself I'd love to sit and watch this stuff but it's impossible you know because meanwhile the rest of the business of the city is going on so it's just not possible for me to sit there and watch a project like this um I can be aware of my minor things and I have corrected a few minor things with
projects we've done in the past that I've caught um but I'm not going to sit there and do densities of the P you know and thicknesses of pavement um to make sure that's right that that that is something that I believe we're paying for here with Construction Services correct me if I'm
wrong so um now if you want to hire somebody else to do that um another firm I guess I'm open to that idea well is have we ever looked at a different an engineering firm I mean have we ever got prices from more than one yes and do we
always take the low these are they always the lowest I don't know if they're always the lowest but it is who the council has um picked as our city engineer so you have to stick with them
you can't use different Engineers well what they do is they interview several you might say um and periodically I guess I mean I don't know how long the contract good for like with what is that for a year I think typically like three
for three but what Tom says is true town this size no way can have their own engineering Force you just can't do it um you got to have the expertise and you can't pay for it number one and the smaller
towns even towns quite a bit larger than this you know they hire they hire their engineer that's pretty well proven I think Baxter has their Public Works directors yeah they have one but even there same even you know the scope of the work that that a city city
engineering office can do I mean this would be outside of the scope of work this this kind of project I guess what you know in reality I I think the only way you're going to be able to measure this is to get a second proposal yeah and if the city council is is
um comfortable with wood Seth then um I guess you know that that's what it is in my mind I guess I I I would just like to know from Bill what based on the you know the the the issues that would come
up with drainage and the the trail could you come up with a you know a percentage of this half million dollars that it might add for for that extra work well I can explain to you how I can
came up with the c with the fee um so I understood the percentage so the way I did it was I looked at what I thought the scope would work would be based on what Tom provided and what I saw and the pictures and all that kind of stuff that I had and I went through and I and I
said okay if I'm going to if I'm going to do the design on whatever street pick one it's going to take um engineer this much time to do the design it's going to take a technician this much time to draw up the plans and I kind of went through the whole thing like that from beginning
to end all the different streets and then I looked at I then I compared that value to what um you know like a certain percentage like um usually like 8% for the design 10% for the um in construction
services and I was very close to the 8% and that's how I came up with that for the design portion of that which included the the surveying the design um and the bidding so that's how I came up with
that and then the the in construction kind of looked at it in a similar fashion and said okay we're probably going to work on this from May through September or October off and on and said okay it's going to take them this much
time probably to do all these different streets and you know this is what I think the um technician or or Observer is going to be out there and so that's how I kind of tried to do it and again I did that initially and then I went back
and I compared it to the percentage and for the most part we were under that eight or 10% for each one when I did it that way so I there was it wasn't just come up with the construction cost and go 8% or 10% or whatever I actually
tried to figure out the scope based based on the complexities of of the project what I was asking though is you you had said that this will not be the bottom line because of these other things that are coming into play right the rights away for drainage you know
issues and Trail issues what might that add to this just approximately um adding you know just going through and adding all the property lines and all that kind of stuff when I was talking to Chad about upper Roy Lake
Road he said it could be in the tens of thousands of dollars to come up with all of that because of how those RightWay lines and property lines were created it's not a plat it's more of a meets and Bounds so it' be very difficult to create that like I said some of the
other ones are in a platted area so if we can find some of the property Corners we can build off of that but on some of these um like on upper Roy Lake Road that's going to be very difficult yeah yeah what sort of a construction super Vision did you uh furnish on that bike
trail you know uh well we had a we had an observer basically out there the whole time um we had uh our survey crew was out there quite a bit um and Joe was doing basically the same thing that I you know he was the city engineer and he
was out there doing a lot of work we spent uh yeah there was a lot of time and effort put into that and and I even since Joe's been gone I finished up the um punch list and the work on the go
Lake Trail just recently well I happen to be a trail user and I'm very interested in that trail so I watched it pretty close and I probably drove by it twice a day uh it was stretched out over a very long period of time which made uh
construction supervision probably difficult but I rarely saw any anybody out there watching the construction and I kind of wondered how uh anybody knew how much base for instance was underneath the
trail um when they just come out and dump some class 5 down there or whatever they were using uh nobody was taking tickets from the drivers uh so I don't know if if all the drivers made it to that uh job or
went somewhere else or what there was very very little control that I could see being done on that entire project and this went on for months and I was kind of curious in fact I was intending to talk
to or um just to see what you guys had charged for doing that if you were doing it because I saw hardly anybody out there ever except the survey except the state well like I said I know that we had an
observer out there um we have documentation for um item record account for all the all the all the um items that were installed furnished and installed um and there's numerous inspection reports showing you know what
was put in where and when um well it's pretty easy to put down hours on a job whether you're out there or not no I'm not talking about the hours I'm talking about what the cont contractor did and what they observed who paid for U um these
problems that they had out there initially when they when they built that trail they had drainage problems and then they would redo them some of them several times and I've I've been curious who paid for that when they had to redo
all those um you know was it the contractor's fault because the contractor didn't follow the plans or were the plans not correct to start with there was a combination of of the contractor didn't put the pavement in
correctly yeah there was issues like that and there were some issues where there were some unforeseen um things that came up that affected the design that uh we had to change in the field um uh I don't know of I'm sure there probably was some
things in the design that needed to be fixed during the design or during construction but most of the time there's usually a an underlying reason why um the design needed to be modified okay but who who paid for that then when
you when it was modified did the city end up paying for redoing that stuff um well the the I mean was that did it that end up being an extra item in some situations yes
uh it seems to me that uh do you have errors and omissions insurance yeah and is that required on this job yeah wouldn't that take wouldn't that take care of some of this stuff instead of the city paying for the problems like that hold up a second guys
said Jenny has her hand up go ahead Jenny thanks Tom uh the the questions um you're asking Dill are good ones just was thing and exactly that was there was a combination of of a lot of different pieces to that trail project
um so I would say um yes we're we're still working through some of the final details um some of it is due to um you know contractor they put some things in and needing to come back and repair things that's on their cost there
things where this the wasn't um working the way that maybe on paper it looked like it would work so um sometimes you have to go back and then you know whether that's a City cost or you know an engineer cost I mean we work through those things you know each as they come but I mean there there are a
handful of things with that project just because of the the the length of it that um I can't answer it's not the one answer for to satisfy your question it would be depending on the specific location and and the circumstances that um would depend on the the answers so we
could certainly talk more if you want to kind of get into some of those specifics that would be helpful I can I can probably help navigate that with you D if you'd like to do that yeah I don't want to take a lot of time at this meeting um and I've wanted to do that but you've been on vacation and so on so
I haven't done it uh but I will I will definitely do that I'd like to see the pay estimates and so on can can we look at this as just kind of what Jenny was alluding to a little earlier just the first two items on on this agreement of the land serving and the design and
specs do you think those two items are in line for what I'm sorry so are are you talking about like what Jenny was saying to maybe break this contract down into well because the conversation break it the proposal down into two contracts yes
yeah I think the first are you talking about the road now or the other the road yeah you mean on this last page here six right yep so you have I think that would be reasonable I think we're getting kind of bogged down and um construction
observation and if we can push that to next month or or a later date um and just focus on the uh surveying and the design is this a
reasonable um proposal or should we ask wsn to come back with two new contracts one for um land surveying and design and another one for the the bidding and construction services and then reconsider
this I don't think it matters because they're the only one playing the game whatever number they put down you're going to take it I mean we could go through all this stuff but the bottom line is they give you a number and you say okay or not you but the city says
okay there's no you know you don't you don't look at anybody else so in my mind it does what difference does it make that that is an OP to be fair that is an option for the city council to do they they could open this up for
engineering that's what I that's I said the city I didn't mean you I me right no I understood that y you know so it's just a lot of extra work for for what I mean the number is the number and and there's nobody else that can say that that numbers well we can do it
cheaper because we don't we don't have that option well if I could jum It's Not Unusual to have you know on a job this size that's a large job you know 3.2 million Is Not Unusual to have two or
more Engineers yeah interview for that you know Joel what is that but that's up to the city you know that's not up to us City could I jump in there quick yeah just based upon all the numbers and you know the inflation that's taken place
you know since 2020 or whenever um yeah I I think with the millions of dollars that we're looking at spending and stuff um kind of alluded to this last meeting the city needs to come up with a process of doing this rather than just taking
the number and going because yeah I you know depending upon who you listen to or talk to um you you know in different markets around the state even that I'm involved in uh price is very huge and you know I do think that it would be
reasonable for the taxpayers to get this bid out by somebody else just based upon the dollars that we're looking at I mean at the end of the day um I don't want to pay more taxes than anyone else and it
you know with with as much as stuff is costing these days we we have to go about it differently than we have in the past I believe Joe are you talking about bidding for the project or bidding for the engineering proposal uh the
engineering proposal a and the and the whole project and looking at it and then also too you know to to Gail's point there you know too what he was alluding to with the trail you know at the end of the day too we got to make sure that somebody's accountable at the end of the
day if there's something wrong with a project the city's not responsible engineering's responsible the contractors responsible there there needs to be responsibility hung on the people that are doing the work for for
this and not come back at an additional cost to the city and I don't know maybe as I listened to this too maybe the city needs to be more involved in in helping right or dictate what exactly we want done and performed and how we want it
done and performed to some manner I don't know what that looks like or whose responsibility that is but as we continue to move forward with these road projects and being the four times the cost they were three four years ago we got to go about this whole thing differently in my
opinion Jenny you have a comment thanks um I would just say addressing the consistency component of this the city's consistently used the engineer for road projects um not right
or wrong I'm just saying that that's been our process in the past is to use the city engineer for this now when we do um a trail project unique or a roundabout project those went out to bid things like that certainly can can opt to really take either path I just wanted
to offer that that we have used um our engineer for road projects I think just because of the history and the knowledge that's not to say you have to just offering that for yeah and I I don't disagree and I I think consistency is good and having one
company like wsn there is good um but also too um it doesn't hurt to you know check the prices on it hey they are the city engineer are we are we getting the best bang for our buck
so that's something we can't decide that's Council so really all we can we can recommend as V is what we can get from this committee is a recommendation so are you
recommending the committee not just you Dill the committee do you recommend that we seek another proposal for the 2025 Road Bond engineering yes absolutely I would right can you make
and I think there's got to be a dollar amount you know if you got a project that's over I don't know the amount right now that yeah it's mandatory that you have you can you go out I'm just asking as a general question if you go out and and to buy a tractor you can't just go one place they give you a number
you say okay you got to get multiples right it works a little different for the city but yes yeah and you guys get estimates on whether it's Anderson brothers or Knife River whoever to do the work correct you don't just pick Anderson Brothers to do it and take
their number all the time right not all the time no but you do that sometimes depends on the size of the project yeah so yeah I definitely think when you start talking this kind of money that
you got to get another option it's just it's I mean it just makes sense so I guess what I would look for then if you one of you could put it in form of a motion and somebody second it we'll vote on it and then we'll take that to the
city council's recommendation yeah I'll make that motion exactly what you said I'll second it all in favor I I opposed no all right the the recommendation will carry I will bring that forward to the
city council at this month's council meeting moving on uh our last um agenda item are any Committee Member concerns or questions I guess the last 20 minutes
could have been on that one sorry that's okay no this is it's it's it's a chance for you guys to comment on anything that you might you know we haven't gone through so um just uh going through the FYI section then uh hearing no
other committee concerns um you have the council report is in our is in your packet and our next scheduled meeting would be August 28th at 5:00 pm um maybe just a quick question on that is there anybody who plans to be
gone that for when is that August 28th I I might not be in town okay I should be all right all right I just helps if we can get a little idea if we're gonna have a quorum or not
so with that looks like we're through our agenda um if I can get a motion to adjourn so moved do I hear a second second I have a first and a second all in favor I I
opposed meeting is adjourned thank you gentlemen Tom what's the skinny on the post office has nothing to do with this committee what I