gentleman from solid waste division of public works. What I learned today was that we have a lot of programs I don't think citizens are aware of to take advantage of. Whether it's cardboard collection, whether it's tote cleaning or also just the fact that we have one gentleman, Mr. Mario, who goes out
through the entire city making sure that we recycle properly. Please make sure that we recycle properly so that we can get the best most efficient use of our solid waste throughout the entire city. It was great to be here today and thank you for tuning in. See you on the next job. There's a place in Northport that
invites you to slow down to see, hear, and feel the world around you. Inside the Garden of Five Senses is Boundless Adventures, a playground where every child can play, no matter their abilities. The >> handle sticking out of the
much filled in. >> I get it. I get it. Um, pretty high on the mic. Can you turn that down just a little bit? Got that any better? That's That's Well, maybe that's too much. Want to make sure you can hear me out here as well. You good? Okay. Everybody good
there in the process? So, do you have do you have family in in Syracuse? >> My wife's parents. >> Oh, okay. Okay. We'll we'll talk about Syracuse. Yeah. >> All right. We're going to get going. >> Good morning. Today is Tuesday, January 6, 2026. It is 9:00 a.m. We're in the
city chambers and I call the city commission workshop commission retreat meeting to order. Commissioners present are Commissioner Dval, Commissioner Stokes, Mayor Emer, Vice Mayor Langden, and Commissioner Pro. There was a quorum
Petro present for this meeting. Also present are city manager Fletcher, city attorney Felino is >> he's behind you. He >> is behind me. There we go. City court board specialist Linder. Uh,
Captain Harvey and, uh, Deputy Chief Hurley are in the back representing the police and fire. I'm going to call on Vice Mayor Langden to lead us in the pledge today. Please. I pledge aliance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Thanks, ma'am. >> You are welcome. >> City court, any public comment?
>> There is none. >> Okay. Moving on to general business. Item A26-275, city commission retreat and governance workshop. Uh, city manager, this is your item. >> Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Uh,
today we have uh our consultant Doug Thomas from SGR to help guide us through today's topic. Uh, annually we do bring him in to discuss our strategic planning for the year where we go over our budget, our priorities, our assumptions and initiatives. Uh today we are focused
on good governance which is a topic that we did discuss la at last year's retreat. Uh but there has been a lot of recent conversation regarding roles responsibilities our form of government and other things that we need to discuss to get all of us on the same page moving forward. So that will be the topic of today's discussion. I will now turn it
over to Mr. Thomas. He will guide us through and we will interact accordingly. Thank you sir. >> Great. Thank you Jerome. Well welcome everyone. It's always good to be back in Northport. I always feel like I'm an extension of your staff as much as I'm here as well between recruitments and governance and strategic planning and
things of that nature. I just want to do a sound check. Um, I have a colleague of mine, uh, Lynn Typton from the Florida League of Cities who's going to be joining us remotely. Lynn, are you there? Lynn, >> still not connected. >> She's not connected. All right. Um, let
me see if I can catch her and just um, make sure she's back on. Um, she says she's on a blue screen and gave it audio and video permission. Um, >> so I do a refresh. >> All right. Okay.
Try. Okay. Well, when we're trying to work through the technology on that, um, we'll go through the the process. Well, as Jerome said, um, normally I'm in town at this time of the year to do your annual retreat to talk about your strategic plan, talk about goals and
objectives and where things stand. Um, I have been obviously you you Northport is near and dear to my heart. I spent a lot of time here working with you and your staff on a variety of projects and recruitments and and planning activities and um I've been watching and and hearing some of the challenges you've
been facing in the last several months going into the fall and the process uh into this year. And so when Jerome had reached out to me to talk about uh strategic planning, um we had a chance to kind of chat a little bit and he explained some of the the challenges and the just the dynamics that were taking
place. And I said, "Listen, it's really going to be hard in my opinion for you to sit down and think about focusing next year 2026 at this stage of the game while this kind of dynamic is in play behind the scenes." And so, uh, many times, both as a former city manager,
but also as a consultant, I work with councils to kind of help work through some challenges that take place. And I've done that here before in previous, uh, compositions of of commissions as well. And so I suggested that before we did the strategic planning process, which we'll probably do sometime uh
very, you know, sometime either later January or early February, it might be helpful for us to see if we can come down and work with you to see if we can get past some of the kind of the sticky points that have been coming into play. Uh because um as I said, I have featured
Northport a lot uh as in many cases best management practice. just last last fall was involved doing a strategic or a a presentation with the Florida um Government Finance Officers Association. Uh I regularly speak at them, but one of the things they wanted me to talk about was strategic planning. And so I I went
through a variety of communities that I had been working with over the years that are in different stages and I wanted to highlight the fact that you and McKini, Texas, another community I work with pretty regularly, are kind of at the far end of that stream of how well you're doing it, tracking it and programs and all those. And so, um, I
suggested to to Jerome that it might be helpful for us to really just spend half a day today just talk about governments, talk about issues that have been challenging here, um, to try to work if we can provide some recommended strategies that I think can help you all as a group be better effective in in
your governance process and in your relationships with staff as well. So, what I want to do today is, you know, me, my background is about 35 years in city management in Maryland, Michigan, and here in Florida. Um, and then I retired and then joined SGR 10 years ago and and I do, as you know, a bunch of
recruitments for communities across the country. Also do a lot of strategic planning and governance retreats and and speak at various conferences and events regularly. But I thought it would be helpful um and I'm hoping by now. Is Lynn in? Is she on board yet?
Not yet. Okay. Um, I want to get Lynn brought on here so she can introduce herself. I'll do a little bit of a background. Uh Lynn Tippen is a friend and a colleague of mine. I met her when I first moved from Michigan down here to Florida. Um, I was
involved very extensively with the the Florida the Michigan Municipal League board of directors, also involved in our state uh association of city management and the um George uh Goodman who was the executive director of the Michigan Municipal League got me in touch with
Mike Sitting who was the then executive director of the Florida League of Cities and got me connected with Glenn. And one of the first things I did when I came down here as a new manager in Florida was actually attend an elected officials academy because it gave me a primer on the Florida Open Meetings Act and how
everything operated. We we often joke in this business and city management we have it's kind of like having a driver's license. You can drive in every state and you generally know the rules but every state has some unique dynamics and and issues. And obviously Florida has a very strong open meetings record, open meetings act, public records uh
processes and we just do things differently as you all know in Florida. So I first my literally the first couple weeks I was here in Florida, I attended an elected officials academy uh that Lynn was facilitating as a member of the Florida League of Cities and got to know
her. Her family comes from a group of city managers. She's got a brother that's currently a city manager, a dad that's been in city management as well. She's actually done some work in that for a period of time. She served as the executive director of the um FCCMA, the Florida City County Management Association. Then she went full-time to
literally just do the elected officials academy in in Florida. And so, as any of you have participated, how many of you have been involved in the EOC elected officials academy? No. Okay. Um she's probably going to make a pitch on that even though she's retired, but uh still does some work with the league. Um, but
this is a process where you can actually go through and become go through a certification process and learn about I attended the first session literally learning about governance and how Florida operates. But there's a whole series of of classes that you go through um, and you can actually get certification and going through that
effort and Lynn has done that. So I thought it would be helpful to have Lynn be part of this conversation because she has interacted with elected officials all over the country for well over 10 10 15 years now. taught about governance, taught about forms of governance, talked about issues and challenges that all of
you face as elected officials in various capacities. And I thought uh between the two of us, we could probably tag team and talk a little bit about some of the things you're dealing with and how some other communities have dealt with those issues. Um, and the goal here, the outcome here is to see if we can get you kind of back on track as a unified
council as much as possible. I'm not asking you to say that you don't defend your positions and your your your advocacy issues, but the goal here is to be effective. We really want you to be able to operate as a team as much as possible. And I can tell you that I work with a lot of communities. As much as
this is probably problematic and and a challenge for you right now, I literally have been brought in and worked with councils that are suing each other. They're deposing each other. You were not there now. Yeah, I know you might this might feel ugly and might feel tense and all that. I just want you to know there's always somebody that is
dealing with something that's a little more challenging as well uh in terms of those issues and and we try to help many of those communities work our way through. So what we're going to do today is after we get Lynn connected I want to have her literally give her background and bio in the process. I thought it'd be helpful for us to just kind of work
our way through um an agenda that I think gets us kind of where we are. um want to talk a little bit about your charter, talk about your administrative policies, talk a little bit about the Greg Robinson legal opinion, and I also want to talk a little bit about the MMA code of ethics just as background. Now,
my my my goal here is not to necessarily rehash everything, but I know that you've got a viewing audience. You may have people in the audience watching just to set kind of a baseline, but this is meant to be a very encouraging dialogue conversation. You know, I I'm I'm going to help facilitate these conversations. I'm going to probably ask
some probing questions as will Lynn as well to try to draw out your thoughts and opinions. But the at the end of the day, I want to talk about that and I want to have Lynn then spend some time talking through the forms of government, the structures, the things that we see
elsewhere in the state of Florida, how you compare to those and how charters and forms of governments compare as well. um and also just conversations she has had with a variety of elected officials in her role as the elected uh she's on board. Lennena, are you there now?
>> Yeah, let me work through this. So, at that point, once again, a lot of thought, a lot of feedback. I know you're going to have questions. We we want to build that into this. This is meant to be a very engaging process. So with that kind of all as background, the next piece of the the meeting will be really some
recommended strategies that either I have used or I have seen or Lynn has seen in other communities that are dealing with this issue because the goal here is there's always some way to help you get comfortable with what you can do. We just have to figure out what that looks and feels like and still be
consistent with all the rules and regulations that we need to operate under here in the state of Florida. So that hopefully will be a series of recommendations. Um, I'm sure that will also generate a lot of conversation and feedback and what works or what doesn't work and and Jerome and I have talked a
little bit about that. So, he would not be surprised by anything that I that I'm throwing out here. But we think that hopefully with these strategies um this will give you what I call the path forward and and able to get you kind of together as a group again in terms of engagement and processes and and your
role as elected officials and governance as well. And then from there, we'll just talk a little bit about next steps and what that looks like. And then at some point we're going to have to come back and talk about strategic planning, but we're not going to do that today in the process. So I now see my friend and colleague Glenn on the screen. Can you
hear us? Okay, Len. >> Yes. Very good audio. I hope you guys can hear me just fine as well. >> Gotcha. Uh Lyn, I gave the background about how you and I first met when I first came to Lakeland and attended Elected Officials Academy to learn a little bit more. So, they know that and
they know a little bit of your background, but let me give you a chance to kind of introduce yourself and the role that you've the work you've done with the league and what you're doing now. >> Well, thank you, Doug, and good morning, Northport. And it's a pleasure to be with you. Sorry that I'm not there in person. I do apologize.
My background really is about 35 years in Florida municipal government through the Florida League of Cities. I did intern for Port Orange and worked as a management and budget analyst for the city of Tallahassee prior to coming to the league. So not quite 40 years in
local government altogether. I retired last year, but I'm doing the retirement in what is called a soft landing. So that this first couple of years I will consult only for the Florida League of Cities and help in any of their training
programs or projects. I've helped with scripting workshops, etc. And I'm keeping a hand in in the weekend training class we do that's nicknamed EMO and EMO too. That was going to be probably the hardest thing for me to
walk away from just because I so enjoy getting to know the elected officials and hearing their backgrounds, why they ran, what is it they want to do within their own municipality. And so it's been a wonderful local government career for me. I've been very blessed to get to
work both with the Florida League of Cities and the associations that they administer and those include FCCMA which I heard Doug telling you about and also the city clerks association, the public information officers association, a
variety of the other local government associations. Just been a real pleasure to get to work across those boards. So background is not that I became an educator by academic degree, but it just became something very near and dear to my heart to be on the road, work with
the city officials, work with communities that were considering municipal incorporation like Siesta Key in your county. Uh that's been also a large part of my career. So you've got a background there other than that. And Doug, I don't want to take up too much time with that, but just a little
background. >> Thank you, Lynn. And Lynn, just you estimate how many in your role in teaching and working in elected officialsmies and the the training programs. Um, how many elected officials do you think you've engaged with in that capacity with the league over your your 10 years?
>> Well, well into the thousands, but I I don't know if I've exceeded 10 to 15,000, but I'm probably somewhere getting close to I'd say maybe 12,000 total. One of the statistics to share is that there are 2,260
mayors and commissioners or council members and 700 turnover every year roughly. And so there's a constant learning curve and not all of them come to league events or league conferences or training events but I would say that in my travels around the state I'm you
know probably over 10,000 maybe. I I wanted to say that only in the sense that because I know a lot of people in this business both as a city manager and as a consultant, but Lynn over over as a far as elected official, she she clearly surpasses my direct knowledge of that. But I think I I thought that it would be
really helpful to have Lynn be part of this conversation because of that relationship and she's had conversations with all of you as elected officials and the challenges you deal with. She's said, "Hey, I've seen that here. I've addressed that here. Here's some other ideas as well." So, we literally thought even though Lynn wasn't able to
physically be here today, we could do a nice tag team between the two of us, both as a practitioner in city management, but also as someone that has understands the city management role, but also works directly with elected officials and has trained elected officials here in the state for many, many years as well. So, so, uh, Lynn,
thank you so much. I appreciate the background. I'm glad the technology jumps in. and feel free as as you and I talk through this uh you're welcome to jump in and add any comments or thoughts as we go forward or if there's questions that you would like to address to her as well. We'll go from there. So, um let me start off then a little bit about
governance. And the first several slides that we're going to be using is something that I was here last year. You may remember in December of actually was 23 December 23 going into the 20 20 December 24 going into the 25 year. um
we went through some governance, we went through an IOP process and then we talked a little bit about strategic planning. So it was like a day and a half type process. So these slides are going to be similar in many cases identical to what we had used. I just thought it'd be helpful as a touch point just to set the foundation of what we
talked about because everything we talk about today is not going there's nothing we'll be talking about today that will be inconsistent with what we talked about a year ago. Now, there are going to be different strategies that we can use to help navigate that perhaps a little bit differently given the challenges you've been facing, but I want to just be consistent the fact that
we're not changing our tune. We're basically saying here are the ground rules, but there are ways we can interpret those rules differently to help accomplish the goals that you're trying to get to as a group as well. So, um I always start off as when we when I do governance workshop is to go back to
your charter because your charter is your constitution. It's the reason you exist. Uh local government in any country or in any state is unique in the sense that because typically you're you're governed by the county unless in fact you decide the citizens of your community decide they want to have a
different form of government and they adopt a charter through a referendum process which outlines how you operate and Lynn's going to talk about the different forms of government and that process before but at the end of the day your forefathers in this community decided to adopt a charter. It may very
well have been amended over the time, over the years as many charters go forward, but basically they've said this is the ground rules that we're going to do. And so your charter outlines a structure of a council manager, former government. It outlines the roles and responsibilities of your you as a body,
as a commission. It also outlines the responsibility of your three charter officers, your city manager, your city attorney, and your city clerk. Uh very in a similar type fashion, although the roles may be different as well. So I always like to start off with discussion about what the charter says as it relates to the city commissions because
obviously this is the nature of this conversation today. So u basically it it delineates the responsibilities. It talks about the limitation of the city commission's powers. Um and specifically in this case we're dealing with the city manager which is really the heart of the conversation we're having today. How do
you as elected officials uh engage or interact with staff members that are under the responsibility of either the city manager, the city attorney or the city clerk? And so I just want to highlight that. I know I'm not going to go through it word for word. I think I know over the meetings that both Lyn and I have watched over the last several
months. Uh I know this has been discussed as well, but I thought it'd be a good starting point for foundation issues there. Um there's also limitations. You have powers as legislative policy makers to adopt things and those are articulated in your charter. But there's also limitations
that speak specifically about your engagement as it relates to your engagement with city employees that are under the employee of either the city manager, the city attorney, or the city clerk. And so you'll see what those look like. And I know there's been a lot of conversation about what that looks and feels like. And we're going to help you
kind of navigate that differently. But just recognize that this is a document that was adopted by your residents when it was first put into play and it is your constitution. So this is the highest level there state laws but in in your case as elected officials you have to follow state laws and federal laws
but this is up there in terms of responsibilities and when you actually uh are elected in office you swear an oath to support the constitution of the state constitution of the United States and the and your local charter. that's part of your oath of office that that this is what you will follow as well.
Now, we can talk if you want to change those things or not, but the bottom line is those are the rules that we have to work with and navigate as we go forward here. So, in this case, it talks about the involvement of the elected officials as it relates to both the city manager employees, the city clerk's employees, and the city attorney's employees.
Um, obviously, the city manager has a little broader level of responsibility because the person in that role is charged and vested with responsibility. the entirety of the organization uh in terms of operations and functions. So there's much more detail as it relates to the city attorney or the city
manager's position. Um but they also have some limitations just as elected officials do. They can't necessarily dictate certain things to the city clerk or the city uh attorney uh as it relates to the employment of their personnel. They fall under personnel policies in general, but the actual appointments and
the direction that those employees receive from your other charter officers are also protected from the manager just as you are not able to to direct those functions as it relates to your other employees or those charter officials as well. Um, so I'm not going to go through the great detail. I know you've seen
this. I know you've talked about this, but want to at least put it forward there. other areas and powers and duties with responsibilities uh of the manager as you know handling your commission meetings. Um scheduling uh reports of your dispersements and your expenses certainly the annual budget process
which is part of what we do here and then that leads into your strategic planning which leads into the outline of your budget and then monitoring that budget throughout the year. you handle purchasing, signing the warrants, things of that nature, and the balance of the responsibilities, uh, kind of administrative ministerial
responsibilities. And there may be other functions that if they're legally authorized that the commission can direct the manager to do X, Y, and Z, assuming they're they comport with both the charter and state national laws as well. So, it's kind of like catch all other duties as assigned, so to speak,
as well. Um in a similar vein, you have similar responsibilities as it relates to the responsibilities of your other charter officer. So the city um the the as it relates to the city attorney uh that person serves specifically uh as
your legal advisor uh has the opportunity to make opinions on contracts and processes will represent you andor engage other counsel as an outside counsel if necessary uh to provide that effort and and certainly involved with the review of contracts and bonds and any legal instruments that
would be associated uh prior to you making actions on it and giving you legal advice That is your general counsel is the city attorney. Just like in a private sector, you'd have a general counsel. They may have people working under them, but they provide the legal advice to the board, in this case, the city commission. Um, city attorney
certainly has responsibilities, uh, handles any complaints, handles any legal matters that take place, uh, attend your elected, attend your commission meetings as they go forward. Um, and then if there's a question from law about what is the law, uh, you go to
that individual and they render a legal opinion or secure outside legal advice to render a legal opinion. But as a charter officer, that is your city attorney that represents you illegally and handles the interpretation of anything, including the question of
whether it's an ordinance or a charter or a policy, whether it comports with state, federal, or local or charter uh, dynamics. Um, in a similar vein, I didn't go into great detail here, but you also have that vein with regards to your clerk. Your clerk has similar responsibilities
and and employees in the clerk's respons or clerk's function also play into into part there. So, um, before I jump into the next piece of that, I as I say, I know you've all talked about this, but I wanted to at least set the standard as well as anybody that may be watching
there with any questions. I know I went through that pretty quickly, but any questions? I know you've all talked about the charters in the past. I know I've presented them, but is there anything that we want to talk about before we kind of talk about interpretation of that? No.
Okay. All right. So as is the case and Lynn will talk about this a little later during her piece of the presentation most organizations charters are like the as I say like a constitution and constitutions have interpretations be either legal interpretations state law court cases or
administrative actions. So in the case of the federal government many times they'll take a pass of legislation and then from there it gets interpreted into a rules and procedures by the administration. you in a similar way have done that with your charter as it relates to provisions in that charter to
provide some greater guidance and direction if you will with regards to how that how that is interpreted. So in the case of Norport you have an administrative policy uh it's entitled 6.8 eight and it deals specifically with the concept of how you as elected
officials engage with the employees that are under your charter officers whether it be the city manager, the city attorney or the city clerk in the process. So this was adopted. I'm going to give you the history of this a little bit later, but basically this is something that we would see typically in almost all organizations. The language
may look a little different and the interpretation may be a little bit different, but there I want to be saying that you're not an outlier by any stretch. You will see these types of policies and procedures in almost every organization even under different forms of government not just under the council manager form of government as well. So
what it talks about here is literally how you engage with employees and that really I think gets at the heart of this issue because I as I've watched the meetings and had the conversations and I I will tell you as a practitioner somebody's been in city management for a lot and I've had every every community
I've worked in has had similar types of charter provisions and interference issues and things like that in terms of policies. Um I I think there's the my my take is and this is me and I think to some extent Lynn would say the same after watching it as an outside advisor
um that we've kind of gotten into this area where there's this hard and fast lines where how do I engage and do this appropriately? And I don't think I will tell you in my experience as a city manager and Lynn's comment as as a trainer and and elected officials
working in in Florida. Um this is not intended that you can never have a conversation with an employee, but there has to be some level of control as it relates to what your charter which was adopted by your residents say this is how we're going to operate with. And so
this policy is trying to interpret that. And this policy has some history to it as well. you've had a policy like this way back before your past several managers, but I I know that the city HR department has worked its way through to
get a history of how the policy that is now in effect got adopted. So, I thought it'd be helpful to just go back and review that to understand that. Basically, what it says is if you're engaging with the employees that there's there's rules and boundaries about how that works to protect the
responsibilities by charter that your charter officers have in their roles and responsibilities in delegating their their their duties. And so this talks about the city manager, the city attorney, and the city clerk in terms of those those employees. And that basically covers everyone other than the
three employees that you employ, which is the attorney, the manager, and the clerk. Those are your employees and you get different relationships with them than you do with other employees that fall under their responsibilities. So I want to go back to this issue. Um
and and the the HR department was involved in pulling this together. You had a policy prior to 2019. Now we're back in co if that gives you an idea. We're six years back now at this time, but in 2019 and 2020 the policy the HR department started to review how that
policy if that needed to be updated. And that's a fairly common thing. Policies and change, state laws change, federal laws change, working issues change, things like that. And so in this case, it had not been changed since 2013. That was a long time. So 6 years back uh since it had been touched. So that's
when this effort started. It went back through. Now this going back to um actually two managers back between Jason, well between your current manager, the interim manager, the previous manager is Pete Lear. So this goes back three managers to this process when it was reviewed and it was sent to
the at that point your acting your manager Pete Leer for his review and comments. There was a lot of conversations back throughout the 2020 about what that looked and feel like. I don't have all I'm not privy to all of those items but obviously I just want to say that there had been an extensive review of this document and there was um
comments about how this process was interpreted. From there it went to um the city attorney's office different well actually Amber would have been in play but Michael Goolan was was working at that stage um doing the review. They
sent the manual to the attorney's office for their review. Uh a lot of conversations between Michael Goolan and the HR department as it related to all the different things in incorporated in that administrative policy including this section that we're dealing with here. And then ultimately there were
some adjustments made at that level and at that point u the numbers got changed. The previous policy was 7.8 it got changed to 6.8 as things got shifted and adjusted from there. So that's the policy we're working on now. But I want to go to the fact that this goes back to 2019 when the first started there. Uh it
then went through as Pete Leer left the organization. Jason Yarbor was your interim manager. He took control of the process for a while. It had been reviewed um and went back to him. It got reviewed through that process. During that effort, we were involved in the recruitment of your current manager,
Jerome. Um, that came through and he was appointed on October, well, he was appointed, but his first date was October 1st of 2021. Uh, I was involved as you, some of you are on the table know that I was involved in that recruitment. One of the things that was so important to the commission was that
the member that the whoever they appointed that they were a member of the international city county management association ICMA and also within ICMA there is a selfcertification process that you can pursue called a credential manager ICMA-CM.
It's a voluntary program and the way that works is that you are required to do a self assessment of kind of a 360 evaluation of your skill sets that gets peer reviewed along with your recommendations about how you're going to enhance your skills in those areas
that you may feel that I need additional time and training in to be a better manager to be a more effective manager. That goes through you become a it's a multi-step process. You become a candidate. You apply for that. You do the assessment. You do your plan of action. You become a candidate. And then there's a period of time in which you
have to complete those things in which you are then peerreviewed by other managers in MA to say okay they've accomplished that you now have ICMA CM credential status and during the agreement when Jerome was first hired as your manager there was he was in that
process he had he was already a member of ICMA he had gone forward to submit as a candidate for ICMACM but you'd have to work your way through that effort as well um but I wanted to highlight that that that was a condition of his employment and not only to attain that but also to retain that and stay in good
standing with ICMA. So once you achieve that status, it's not like I I put my feet on the desk, I'm done. You still have to commit to 40 hours of training. You submit an annual report that gets peer reviewed to make sure you're continually enhancing your skill sets to go forward. I'm going to come back to why that's so important later, but I
wanted you to all be aware that that was a critical issue of concern when when your the recruitment was taking place and when Jerome was ultimately hired and that language word for word um well, I'll show you here shortly. U it was is in his agreement and I believe still retains in that agreement uh to date. I
know the agreement's been adjusted over time as well. So anyway, so October 1 comes around. Um that's Jerome's first day on the job. One of the things to get lands on the first day. I always joke about when you're a new manager, the wheels, the the car still rolls down the road at 70 mph and so you do a lot of
things in that first day. One of the things that he had to sign off on was the policy. My understanding was for HR department, there were no changes. The policy was pretty much adopted, ready to go. He signed off on it as the new new sitting manager, but made no adjustments to the policy. It was first day just
reacted going forward. So that that point then after 2021, it gets we're ready to rock and roll. And then in January 3rd of 2022, um the effective date of that policy comes into play. So there's a lot of history to how you got here and none of it has to do with your
current manager that all that took place before Jerome even started in this process. So let me stop there before we go to the next level. So any questions on how how you got to where you are and where what what that looks like? Jerome looks like
he wants you to talk. >> Yes, Doug. Just to reiterate, I didn't make any changes to it because it was already fine the way that it was. The HR director as well as the legal department through the city attorney had already verified that it was in alignment with
the actual charter itself. So, it wasn't that I approved it and then said, "Oh, well, I wouldn't have wrote it this way or I would change anything." It didn't need to be changed. It was fine and it reflects the sort of relationship that we should be having today. >> Gotcha. And just to reiterate, that also went through an internal legal review.
So it was it was both administrative and and and evaluated legally as well. >> I have a question. >> Sure. >> Um one and this might be more for HR the elements in that policy that limit
that instruct employees to not engage with us in terms of operational questions. Over time, did those restrictions get strengthened
or weakened or did they stay pretty much the same? >> That's a that's a Christine question. Probably you've got the institutional knowledge on that one. >> Just stand here. I I believe it really just stayed about the same. It was just
kind of putting it in writing. It was the direction of the person who was our city manager at the time, but I think it just put in writing what was pretty much happening anyway. >> Yeah. >> And prior I've been here I I got this is my 10th year here now and that was the
same philosophy that was before the the item got changed. >> Right. So with these kinds of restrictions, what problem or problems do they seek to prevent or fix? Well, I
think it's it's everything we've talked about these meetings to make sure that certainly department heads I'm sorry I'll do my best u being on the spot here but it was just to make sure that the communication was still going through
our leadership and making sure uh that certain commissioners weren't getting more information that others were. It was just really trying to be as transparent as possible, keeping it structured and going and making sure because like I said, I started under
another city manager al together and that was the same philosophy that was shared with me. It was the same philosophy that was shared in my prior employer as well, another city down south. Okay. >> So, >> okay. Thanks. >> Does that help? >> Yeah. And I know Len, I know we're going
to talk a little bit later about that effort, but do you want to do you want to chime in after Derome's comment on this one as well? Because uh might be appropriate based on the question that's being raised now. >> I can certainly say that out of the 411 municipalities in Florida, 280 are
council manager or commission manager depending on the term. and they indicate that um there are non-inference clauses for either in the charter or in ordinance in many of these forms for the
same reasons. Uh Commissioner, >> great. Thank you. >> And Doug, I just want to give you an example. So, one of the examples from this personnel policy and the separation of duties and the non-interference clause is that during one of our
meetings, um, Commissioner Duval made the statement that we were no longer had our HR manager employed with us and had he been able to speak to staff, then that might not have happened or she might be here or others might be here. That's a clear distinction between the
roles responsibilities of what I am responsible for under this personnel policy versus the responsibility of a commissioner. That would never be allowed to be an acceptable reaction to involve himself in personnel matters. And that's where some of the
discrepancies come from from my job to his job. >> Sure. uh to that point and I know Lynn will talk a little bit articulating this as well. There are certainly charters where um you have what is kind of a standard council manager former
government charter um as it relates to roles and responsibilities. There are other charters and I do this because I recruit for city manager positions all over the country. There are certain charters where um the manager has to make a recommendation for certain positions where the council or commission has to approve that position.
Sometimes it's for a CFO position, a chief financial officer or a police chief or something of that nature. Um or sometimes many in some charters the attorney works for the manager and the manager has to make a recommendation on that position. So I've seen those personally and those are a little bit different where there is some
involvement. There are also some charters that say if a department head or if you're if you don't have a civil service process or whatever that issue would be, some charters, especially in really small communities, will have an employee gets terminated. There's a
ability to do a hearing process before the commission for advice and consent. That's not how you're structured here, but there are charters. I can find charters that say everything differently and no matter where I want to go, but we have to follow what charter we have here and whatever the charter may be in the place of of in place in whatever
community is there. Uh but what you're going to find is there are more consistencies as you get larger. You find more consistencies in charters and more traditional council manager structures and roles and responsibilities and and and the rules of engagement and elected officials
become much clearer when you get into smaller communities. And I said Lynn's going to spend some time talking about different types of forms of government and what she sees in those areas. Uh and that may generate some conversations, but basically what Jerome is saying goes back to what what was in your original charter that the manager is responsible
for all those employees under his or her charge with the exception of the employees of your charter officers. So the the concept of of your charter does not provide an ability to be engaged in personnel matters beyond the three employees that you appoint. That's kind of the parameters that you're dealing
with. Okay. So, I understand in watching the various meetings uh that have occurred since last fall that there has been um some questions of interpretation of what your charter says and what your
administrative policy says. It's my understanding and Michael's here now or I'm sorry Michael Bolan. I'm sorry I was thinking back. Um but throughout the development of your administrative policy that is in effect today that was reviewed by
currently your assistant city attorney Michael Goolan. Um my understanding was that from time to time discussions even when Amber Amber was here as your as your city attorney some questions have come up about that issue and and has opined in a very similar fashion. Um,
from what I understand, watching some of your meetings, Michael has opined that the charter and the policy seem to be in concert with each other. But as a board, you're entitled to an outside legal opinion. That was secure. Both Michael is board certified in state and local
government and the attorney that responded for Gray Robinson. Uh, if you don't know Gay Robinson, it's a statewide firm, very well represented, very well uh, established firm. We used that when I was in Lakeland as a corporate counsel for a lot of our functions as well. Also, a board
certified in state and local government attorney looked at your charter, looked at your administrative policy and said they are in concert with each other. There's nothing inconsistent there. So, the reason I raise that is that you have now multiple opinions from internal and
external that say the policy that is in effect is not inconsistent with your charter, that it comports with your charter. And so it's not like you've got conflicting opinions. Sometimes you can get different opinions and different attorneys. You now have multiple opinions that have said in essence this
policy seems to be inconsistent language and direction and intent with your charter incorporating a variety of case law as well and looking over that document. So I know I wasn't going to go through it but in case there was questions here. Obviously, this was the the opinion uh from Nikki Day, who was with Greg Robinson, once again, board
certified in state and county and local government operations. And you've seen the three-page opinion there. It talks about the same charter language I've mentioned, but also incorporates case law, which says not only am I just saying this, here's what the courts have said in similar interpretations. So
unlike where sometimes you may have different attorneys coming up with different thoughts and opinions about the same topic in this case you've had consistent outcomes from your attorneys as well both internal and external to go forward. So, um, I just want to put that in play. If we need to come back, that
may be a conversation to go forward. But I wanted to come back as further background information to talk a little bit about what I mentioned earlier when when your current city manager was employed and the desire to make sure that the MMA that he was a member of ICMA that he pursu credentialed manager
status. We always when I do recruitments for city attorneys or city manager positions, I always encourage that the board put language similar to that at least for membership of an ICMA because number one that binds you to the ICMA code of ethics and the ICMA code of ethics we're going to talk about here
shortly. Basically, as a member of ICMA, you are representing as a professional manager advancing professional local government management. And there are a code of ethics that we have subscribed to and we can be challenged if we're
violating these policies and procedures that have consequences to us professionally uh as well as personally from financial. Um if a complaint is filed, there is a process utilizing a state uh ethics committee that reviews that and they make a recommendation.
ICMA board of directors are involved in the process and either they say there's no finding or there's a censure or there's an an expulsion. Any of those censures or expulsions have significant ramifications politically and and operationally to a manager who wants to stay in this profession. So it binds
whoever you hire as a manager to those code of ethics and those are adopted and amended throughout the time from time to time by the ICMA membership and ultimately adopted by the board. So every contract I ever work with with immediately when I'm doing a city manager recruitment, I always say at a
minimum, you should bind your manager to the MA and being a member of ICMA because it automatically binds you to the ICMA code of ethics and that gets you some additional standards in terms of the way in which they operate with you with your community and ethically how they operate so that we're not
damaging the profession of local government. And so this background here, as I said, this goes back to 1924. It's been amended over the time. It's been adjusted over the time, but basically ICMA is our international association bear to trade to help promote professional local government operation.
And Lynn's going to talk a little bit about how we got through different types of managers over the time as well. But basically, there's currently in the in the ICMA code of ethics, there's 12 tenants. And those tenants outline the standard in which we as city managers are expected to conduct our business and
how we interact with our elected officials, with our community, and with our staff and how we advance uh professional local government management. As I mentioned, the language in Jerome's contract when we originally negotiated it included this effort of ICMA membership and credential that you
must be a member of ICMA. um that you were in the process at that point of becoming he was an ICMACM candidate when that gets completed that he would continue that through his employment and also continue that he would his credential would be with no lapses or
losses or or revocation. So why is that important? And the reason and it really gets back to the issue here of those 12 tenants in the MMA code of ethics. Tenant number 10 is specifically opposed efforts to interfere with professional responsibilities by consistently
executing official duties, policies, and processes with an unwavering commitment to unbiased public service. So you bowed your manager to the ICO code of ethics. You went one step further and say, "I want you to be a credentials manager." which means he has to follow the ICMA code of ethics or he's in violation of
his contract and he also puts himself in jeopardy professionally going forward. Now within the MMA code of ethics there's 12 tenants but ICMA also just like the constitution has interpretations and so has given guidelines as part of the code of ethics
help guide the actions of managers and members of ICMA as they go forward. So part of the guidelines, the two that fall under this particular tenant, which is really kind of the issue that we're dealing with today, is information sharing and feedback. It says the members should collaborate with the governing body to establish clear
communication protocols for effective, equitable, and transparent information sharing and reciprocal feedback. And then the second guideline is personnel and operational managers. The member shall lead personnel and operating decisions consistent with responsibilities established in the charter or enabling legislation without
interference from the governing body. So that's going to put you back to say, okay, you've got the charter, you've got your administrative policy. Now you've gotma on top of that and you made your manager a requirement to maintain membership in MMA. So he's trying to do
what your charter says and your legal opinions have talked about the interpretation of the administrative policies relative to your charter. So there's kind of like three levels of things here that all seem to be in the same play of how this is supposed to operate. Now, what we're going to talk
about later today is interpretations of that where we see that you maybe there's different thoughts and opinions about how that interaction can work and still effectively be consistent with the three ele elements of your charter, your legal opinions and ICMA code of ethics and
your administrative policies. Make sense? All right. So, before we shift on that, any other questions on what we've talked about so far? I know this is all background. The goal here is to to get you from here. Where do we go next? >> Pretty good. Jerome, do you have something to say?
>> Are you about to go to the next topic? >> Yeah. Well, yeah. The next one is I was going to have Lynn talk about structure government here. >> Before you go to the next topic, can you go back to the interpretation from the third party legal um attorney because during one of our conversations, >> part of what we're trying to get through
here are public comments that have been in contrary to what you're presenting now. You're not hearing any questions now, but there were tons of questions when we discussed it publicly, and we appreciate your time. I know it's valuable. I don't want to go back through this again. So, I feel like we
need to get the questions that were discussed then out now. Otherwise, we're not going to be able to move forward and after today, I'm sure I'm not alone. I don't want to talk about this anymore. I feel like we need to just address it. This interpretation was dismissed in our meeting by saying that they have an
opinion, we have an opinion, I have an opinion, and I disagree with this third party city's opinion after disagreeing with our current city attorney's opinion. The question needs to be asked, why do they disagree with that opinion? And how is their interpretation of this charter
and our rules better than our legal experts? That's the question that some of our commissioners need to answer today. And I I can't use the well I guess it doesn't work on the screen but in the the U on the upper right hand side of the on on page two it says
further reach commissioner of Northport takes an oath of office to quote support protect and defend the constitution of the government of the United States. The constitution and government of the state of Florida and the charter and ordinance of the city of Northport. The oath imposes a binding legal and ethical duty to uphold the charter including both its
its grants and its express limitations. I think that's how it reads from there. So, as I mentioned earlier, when you all become elected officials, you swear an oath of office. You're adhering to the Constitution, the state, and your charter and your your your ordinances that operate here. So, I guess to Drum's
question, I mean, certainly we're open for this conversation. This is intended to to be a dialogue, not a not a lecture by any stretch. And as I say, we're going to we're going to get into some options here as we go forward interpretation. But um to to the drone's question is there it from my standpoint
it looks pretty clear but I may I'm one person so I'm open for conversation on this one as well. >> Yes m >> it I think it it should pick up guys if you can give us a heads up you can hear Demetrius when he speaks. >> One two three. >> Are you good?
>> You got the >> you're good. Okay go ahead. Uh so the the whole point is not the sticky point about the the actual interference with the uh responsibilities and duties between the
commissioners and the appointed positions that is city manager in this case. It's not that we are want to violate the charter if you will. >> Okay. But as I was running for my
position, um I made a promise or one of my core points was transparency. >> So when I talked to the my constituents, um and it's a lot of people. >> Sure. >> I represent a lot of people, right? Five
of us, we represent almost 100,000 people. Um, so I I made a promise, if you will, to be transparent, accountability. It was one of my other
core points. Um, so it's not so much I want to get into the duties of a city manager or interfere with the with the charter uh specification of limitations.
It's more about communication >> and somehow the question was twisted that I you know some commissioners don't understand the roles and want to overstep the appointed
legal frame of actions which is legislature right but to to legislate there has to be some freedom to communicate with the actual processes I never intended and I never intended I repeated many times that I want to get
into the role of a city manager or undermine his authority or his office. I have no desire to do that. I have and I had no desire to do that. what I wanted to do and expressed many times and was limited and refrained and I
don't want to use the word threatened but the the words were used that you know if you go this far you're going to get consequences if you will. So um my position and the whole sticky point is
not about interfering and that's what this confirms this the the legal opinion confirms the internal um conclusion was that you know interference interference I don't want to be an interference of
any type of any kind uh what I want is open conversations and uh how can I be transparent to my constituents um if I cannot interact or at least ask a question about operations
>> now to deal with legal uh not um administrative services that's a different realm of area that I don't want to get into that but asking a question hey um
and we uh many times we refer to the subject matter experts and I want talk to the subject matter expert unbiasedly. What do you think of this policy or uh
simple question? I don't want to give him any directions. I don't want to make any requests, but the charter does not prohibit the city commissioners from communicating with the staff personnel. And that was my that was my
uh maybe it was interpreted differently and twisted that we want to take over the city manager's roles and responsibilities that that wasn't the case and I'm coming with a sincere intention then you know somehow you know it was presented that you your role is
to be a legislature and it is true but somehow in the process between October and now you So the whole um
interpretation of our of my intention at least and I can speak on myself uh about myself specifically because I don't want to speak on anybody's behalf they can speak on their own um that was you know
get the unbiased opinion for example um and somehow we landed here Um, so I I I do understand city manager's frustration that he doesn't want to come back to this. So, let's settle this once and for
all. >> I think that's the intent today to if we can if we can land a plane and get to a point where you can all get comfortable about how this can work. Um, I think that's the goal because you you have a lot on your plate as elected officials and as a community. And I think the goal is here um you know, I don't want to
sound like a horse whisperer, but sometimes we can help you get there. And I think we've got some ideas. I do want to say though, your charter does provide direction and guidance. It's not like you can't get that information. What your charter and your policy say is you have to go through the manager and the manager can decide whether he's going to
answer that or somebody else may want to answer that. So I don't I don't want to I I would just put in the record the charter does not prevent you from getting information, but it does prescribe the manner in which you have to get that information through. >> Okay? and and and that seems to be consistent with what your what your
charter says, what your administrative policy say, and what your legal opinions have said. So, it's not like you can't get the information only. We're going to talk about processes that may give you a better level of comfort about where that information comes from, but the charter is very clear that direction has to go
through your manager, your clerk, or your city attorney. >> And that is correct to make requests or, you know, ask >> for information. >> Information. It is not just direction. It's information. that that is outlined very black and white in your charter um that says this is how you operate. Now,
we can talk about internal policies and procedures that may give some leeway and still be consistent with what the charter has to say, but the charter is very clear in terms of you have this process to get that information. And that's that's it is what it is. I'm not
making it up. It is it it says that in black and white. You have to go through your three charter officers who are your employees to get the information. As I say, bear with me. I'm going to give you some strategies that I think will help you get more comfortable that we see work that are not inconsistent with your
charter or policies. Maybe you might have to adjust some policies a little bit to to to make it accommodate. I'm not here to just say we're just going to stay and everything is what it is. We're going to give you some options. I as a manager, I never wanted people coming to me who saying, "Well, here's the problem. I want also some recommended solutions." So, we we'll we'll help you
get there, but I do want to put that the charter is clear. >> I don't want to be impatient, but I actually I would rather stay quiet on this issue. Um because I guess it was settled in a way. Um but at the request of the city manager, um he wants to
settle this once and for all. I just want to speak up again and saying that you know I never intended to interfere with any responsibilities of of our charter employees but uh my intent was very sincere and to get the unbiased
information not controlled information if you will and that's it. But if you and it's not just you know provide me this type of report but it's a more of a how do you think that this was done in a way do you think it could be better what
can we do better you know as my constituents or any citizen can come to any step and ask any questions and I'm suddenly prevented from asking a question or dealing with I don't want to deal with administrative services but as
far as information that was my my my biggest concern but >> I'll I'll defer to the mayor in terms of a couple of you want to speak so I'll down barb no prime example I can't remember if it was with Mr. Fletcher or Mr. earlier because
I worked under both of them or worked with them on this commission. But the situation came up about War Mineral Springs and what we were going to do about the buildings. One of the buildings in question was the cycllorama. I went to the city manager at the time. I said, "I would like to
meet with parks and wreck to where I can go look and tour the cyclama for my own vision to see what's going on there. Is it savable? Is it not? What can we do?" Within a few days, a meeting was set up. I went over. I met with Miss Sturgis and
we worked walked through the cycle over looked I asked whatever questions I had and whatever knowledge she had. We shared back and forth. Never was the city manager involved on that conversation. It was with the proper staff at the time. And then when I got
done, I had all the information. One thing that you brought up though is that while you were campaigning, you made promises, but once you were elected, there are different policies that you must follow. So, some of your promises
you have to relax a little bit. You can be as transparent as possible, but you have to follow those policies to get that information. I have never been blocked on getting information. I've either asked the city manager to say, "Hey, can they come to my one-on-one to
where I can ask questions about this for the reason being they're prepared to give me those answers and then or I could just set up an appointment or they will set up an appointment for me. The information's out there. You just have to follow the policy. I also worked for
the city for 20 years and there's a chain of command. The employee does not automatically go to the commissioner when he has a problem. He has to go to his supervisor, manager, director, and then maybe all the way up to the city manager and
possibly commission. Works the same way going back down commission, city manager, directors, this that and the other. It is the way it's structured. >> They're not saying >> and no, you can't talk to them,
>> but they will schedule that. And it may not be right today because they may not be available, but as soon as possible, you'd get that information. >> I'll add that. >> That's just personal experience. >> And then for me, as you were talking,
Dimmitri, one thing popped into my head. My aunt Mary always told me, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Have you ever heard that? It's it's not just about how we feel or
what we intend. We are commissioners and when we engage with staff, it is not a colleial relationship. It's not like going to a co-worker and having a conversation.
Just the fact that we are commissioners potentially sets up a weird dynamic for that employee. And when administrative services, it just doesn't mean pushing
paper. It's all the services of the city that are delivered under the city manager or the other charter officers. So if if we engage an employee down the chain and ask those kinds of questions,
well, what do you think? How do you think we could be doing better? That is a direct interference in that chain of command. And based on the questions we ask, we're pretty transparent
terms of how we're feeling. Oh, come on, be honest. We're pretty transparent in terms of what we're thinking and and what we're feeling. So, it's not just about our intentions. It's the unintended consequences of our behavior.
We don't set out to do that, but we can't really prevent it because of our role. And then the the other thing I I do want to share because I can remember after one meeting you and I had a a conversation.
Um and I cautioned you because I I saw you potentially getting into an area where you were running the risk of an ethics complaint. That was not a threat.
That was my attempt to prevent you from getting into the middle of something that could cause you ethical problems. So, I just wanted to clarify that because I would never threaten anyone.
It was cautionary because I saw you running the risk. Um, and whether it was your intention or not, there's the risk of people watching your behavior and interpreting it in a way
that you were getting an advantage because of your position as a commissioner that maybe a competitor in this city didn't have that same kind of access. And I didn't want to see you get in trouble. Not by me. I'm not going to do anything. But anyway, enough said on
that. Um, I wasn't going to say much anything today, but you said something that that caught my ear, that caught my attention, and that's the desire on the part of a commissioner to be able to
get unbiased information. And I sort of separate like in dealing with city manager and his team, there's information and then there's
opinion or recommendation or suggested direction. And we've had experiences where we didn't feel as a commission perhaps we were getting a 365
degree perspective on issues which would put us in a position to really be able to ask all the questions we needed and understand all the ramifications and the perspectives on a particular issue. what
we got strongly was opinions and recommendations. And that's a fine line to walk. But in in my personal opinion, I've I've I've felt that it's as a commissioner my obligation to challenge
to challenge city manager when I feel an agenda or an opinion or perspectives being pushed where I feel maybe there's other perspectives and maybe I haven't been afforded the
benefit of the subject matter expertise staff has to walk me through those perspectives. And I think they do it on a regular basis because they're dealing with the dayto-day stuff. Sometimes when it gets to us, they've sort of already
made that leap because they've gotten through it all and this is what yeah, this is the right way to go. Yeah, this is our direction, but we aren't there yet. And I think we pushed back. we did over to Pocutella over to Bam Bridge and I think that sent a loud message from
that day on every time I click on the agenda item and I see the staff report on most items I see a whole lot of perspective with pros and cons for all.
That's how I find I can challenge what I'm hearing sometimes. And so when I do my one-on- ones and even in my briefings, I'll go off script. I'll ask questions. I'll push back. And if I need more, I
ask for it. I have on a number of occasions asked in my one-on ones, I need more. I need I need Elena's input. I I need Lor's input. I I need Sandy's input. I need whatever. I need to know more about this. He's not looking to to
filter what they tell me. Only that he can be assured that the concerns I have may well be concerns that my four fellow commissioners might have and want to benefit from. So just like when we have a formal question we submit and it gets
reviewed and it gets posted for all of us to see, it's the same thing. We can fix this this issue by working more with city manager and our
charter officers and building that relationship to the point where there's a comfort level with hey I can see you you need to hear this from somebody else. That's sort of why he's here today. It's it's interesting. We're
all on the same page. We all want to do the same good for the city. We all want to have the benefit of all the information we could possibly have to make smart, good decisions on behalf of the most people in this city. And
they're the way to do it. They want to do it. We just got to ask for it in a respectful way, in a in a trusting way, in a way that doesn't make anybody feel they're being undermined or stabbed in the back or or because let's face it, for any of us, if I feel somebody's
trying to bury my sorry, you know what, I'm going to be pretty darn defensive and I'm going to stand my ground and I'm going to fight back. I got family. I got kids. I got a career. Nobody's gonna cost me my job because they think they
know better when they may not. So, there's a way to do things. And we have to be appreciative that there's a whole lot, not a whole lot, but there are people out there who truly are committed to undermining. I have listened to you and believe you're in your heart. You
are good. Your intentions are honorable and good, and I appreciate that. And for that reason, I think we need to try to do everything we can to bridge that gap. You I I cringe whenever I hear the concern over getting an unfiltered and
unbiased opinion. Staff should talk as one and it's here to help us make good decisions. If we're not getting every perspective, we need to ask for more perspectives. We need to say
this is bothering me. I need to hear more about this. Is are you all on the same page, Jerome? Are is everyone on your staff feel the same way? Have there been discussions about this? Yesterday we had interesting discussions about branding and it was interesting that
there are a diversity of opinions as that process moved to the point where it came to us. So, it's maybe a little incumbent upon us to have that trust in the guy who was elected to run our city
in the belief that he really wants us to be the best we could be and get us everything we need. If we can have that little leap of faith, I think you'll see that it's easier to work with them and it's easier to get the information and
and I don't think he wants to filter it. I don't think any city manager should want to filter it or or or or massage it in in in in in a way that's that's biased in any way. I really do think city manager and staff want us to
be the recipient of all the information necessary to make good decisions. They're the experts. They have spent careers in their fields. We have it. We each have our individual expertise and ex education, but man,
we're here five people trying to make decisions about 95,000 people and a big city and a big budget. We need all the help they can give us. But they're obligated to educate us. And if we don't think we're getting a round full enough education, we need to ask
for it. That's the route I I tend to go when I interface with them. And I and I said >> Yeah. you know, so we can get there. I think Doug's alluding to that there's some of that and you know, hopefully we'll hear that as the day goes on. But let's not forget how important it is. We
are on the same page when it comes to sharing our visions and our missions of the city. How we get there can be different. And the trust factor is earned. It always is earned. So, you know, there are times when I felt betrayed because I didn't have all the information I needed only to find out
later, should I should have known that or I should have been told that. and we've pushed back on it and and it's not a perfect world. So, we're human. You know, sometimes there's oversight. Sometimes there's sta staff is seeing things from a perspective that makes
sense for them in the city, but we answer to people. So, sometimes ultimately the decisions we might make may be in contradiction with what staff's recommended and that's okay, too. But they're obligated to educate
us. They're they work for us and and through the city manager. And it really helps when that rapport is there, that level of trust that we all want to do what's best. when any of us feel that any of us
are trying to undermine the others and and have their own special agenda or doing the bidding of other parties, I got to tell you, it's it's so toxic to an organization, whether it be a business or municipal government. So,
you know, I share that thought because I think we can get there and and I think everybody wants to get there. At least I believe everybody wants to get there. Yeah, thank you and thank you for that. Um, Commissioner Stokes, he is correct.
You know, he is the reason why we changed our agenda package the way they read because we were giving our opinion that staff's role. They were giving their opinion, but they were not sort of giving the other side of the coin and now that has been changed and we try to look at it when we provide that
information to um the elected officials. But in talking about some of what we just heard, you know, we talk about, you know, transparency and the running for for office and, you know, more about communications. Um, and you know, the question is, how can I be more transparent if I can't ask questions to
my constituents? And those questions that are being asked, we can answer those questions at a leadership level. And not just through myself, but through our leadership team and that's how we collaborate to make sure that information that is needed is provided. But the ability that is being sought is
to be able to go layers down from our leadership team, ask a question, get an answer that either contradicts what we're saying or confirms what this commissioner or the commissioner asking the question believes to be able to push back on what leadership is saying. And that is not transparency. Um, our
charter does not limit transparency. He creates it by allowing commissioners to have access to the same information. Making sure that staff is collected and protected from political pressure. Accountability is clear and traceable and no one is sort of just operating on their own or doing what they want
throughout the shadows of our organization. Um, we get the question you just said earlier, Doug, about, you know, there is a policy that says that the city manager can either answer a question or have staff answer a question when it's asked. One of Commissioner
Dval's complaint was that our public works director was being asked a question. And, you know, he looked at me and I told him no, which is very common for the city manager to say, "I'll take this one or you take that one or let me answer that." But his point was, well, I I I stopped him from giving him information that, you know, he would
have he would have given. And there's literally a policy that says that that's how we operate under that way of exchanging information. Um, I just believe that when we talk about the transparency and how it looks, this is what transparency looks like in a wellun
professional city. And it's not designed to prevent any elected official from getting information, but it has to be a structured process to it. And I don't believe that because someone campaigned on something that they wanted or thought the people wanted to hear and then got
here and found out well that's not the rules of the structure that you get that done. It's the fault of the people who are enforcing the structure. I don't think that's fair cuz publicly I believe Commissioner Petro was the last one to say that he didn't see transparency and he doesn't trust government. How are you
in this role when you don't trust government? And then you believe that the actions that you're doing, we're supposed to take as actions that are not designed to harm us. We all have the ability to trust government in the roles that we're in or then or seek it in a way while we're in it. If we're not in
the if we're not in the um in the mindset of trusting government, I think that we have a long way to go. And that was said publicly recently. I want to I want to see any person who trusts government 100%. That's not what I said. That's not what
I said. So, right, you got to trust 100%. >> Right. I don't even trust 100%. >> Is that 67? Is that >> you have to trust it enough to get the work done within the structure that is there and the things that you don't trust, you question, you ask like Commissioner Stokes said, and you get a
different result. But if your mindset is to not trust government each and every single day, I don't understand how you can be effective or how a healthy working relationship can exist. And I don't want I don't want to get caught in terms, but um and you're going to see later and it's material talked about
before as elected officials, you're welcome as as one of the commissioners talked about about challenging assumptions. That's part of your role. I'm not saying that nothing we're going to talk about today is is enabling or or trying to restrict you in terms of getting the best full 360 understanding
of an analysis. I will tell you it was interesting to listen to you Phil and the process because I always viewed as a city manager. I know most of my colleagues in this profession the same before we give a recommendation to council which is now going to be public and the process whatever the topic may be. I viewed my brain trust which was my
department heads and they're going to all be believe me they all had different thoughts and opinions and all that and sometimes it's hurting cats but at the end of the day your structure is you appoint one person to make that final decision. Now, that person typically will take that feedback, but that's not to say that you as board members say,
"What else have we considered?" or "What else is out there?" Because at the end of the day, you're going to own that decision as five of you adopt a policy and ordinance, a direction, a program, whatever that might be. And so, nothing we're going to be talking about today is trying to restrict that. We're just trying to figure out how the best way
you can put boundaries and guard rails around it. Uh, and I I say this in a sense, how many of you really I mean, I know AI is getting a lot of attention, but how many of you are really utilizing AI right now? Okay. All right. So, those of you that use AI, when you think about
going back to, and I hate to say the word Google, I won't say G, everybody that has those speakers will go off in there and handling, but you think about the early iterations of Alexa and Google. there was pretty one way you know what's the temperature what's it what's that your process to truly as AI
has evolved it is about context if I ask one question through AI uh and I get one answer unless I challenge that or I put context of what all right what's what's the response I'm looking from I'm a city manager I'm looking for this from an elected official standpoint what are the
the view I'm going to get a different answer so that's the challenge you have when you go deeper into an organization and you're asking a maybe a line level employee or supervisor about something. Their context is the view that they see, but that may not be the context that you're looking for as an elected
official or your manager is looking for from a systemwide basis. And so context means a lot. And I can guarantee you as a city manager for 35 years, I could go to any one of my department heads. may have a different perspective of it, but
they don't have the same context that I have as a manager and the role of responsibility I or a department head may have a different context than a line level employee or a mid-level employee. So, context really matters and if you play with AI, you'll get dramatically different answers to questions based
upon how you ask and you want the response to be based on a c a certain context. Now, I agree 100% in the area staff typically will do that homework, but that's being done, but you may not know that. And so, I applaud the effort to say, "Now, if I'm getting briefing
materials that say here are the different thoughts and opinions, and here's why those weren't selected because of X, Y, and Z." That provides additional context and additional conversation that you have about saying, "I can agree or disagree with that." And that's okay. That's your role and
responsibility. But I really want to stress that point of context makes a 100% difference in terms of the information you're looking for because I can ask Google to give me an answer but it may not be the right answer because I haven't given it the right contest >> or Gemini now not Google as I say
>> you know it it it's true cuz cuz I'm very suspect AI I don't like AI per se I think there's going to be more negative to it than positive just like with social media but I think that like I've compensated for it because it's so convenient You Google something and up it pops. AI is right at the top. So
>> typically I'll ask two or three times in two or three different ways. An interesting >> you have to talk to a different talk and it tells you different things based on how you're asking the question. But you know there is a distinction and you
can't deny bringing it back to us is that staff at least it's my opinion that staff's focus is is always on what's best for the city
as a whole. Recognizing that the city is made up of human beings. Okay. But the city and nobody who from city manager on down is elected.
Okay, they're hired. We on the other hand are elected. And we represent the citizens of this city. And horrible as it may sound, sometimes what's best for the city isn't
necessarily best for the citizens or vice versa. Actually, there can be disconnects and they may be huge, they may be very subtle, but they do exist. And when we make the decisions we make,
there are certain decisions that might well be in the best interest of the city per se, but they're just not palatable to the people we represent as commissioners. And that's why it's so important that we get the perspectives
that staff may have considered but not discounted or not thrown away but perhaps discounted. So when they come forward with a presentation it it seems like you know here's the direction we go when truthfully it may
not. And and I'll point to the damn bridge a thousand times. Perfect example. Hey, what's wrong with like taking all those impact fee dollars and using them somewhere else and not building a bridge? After all, who cares about some damn bridge? Well, a lot of
people cared about the bridge. A lot of citizens cared about the bridge. We cared about the bridge. And you know, there was the defining moment pointing to an issue that showed that to me disconnect between what's best for the city and what's best for the system. How
that gets resolved in time. Interestingly enough, we found that, you know, it may well be we have to skin that cat in another way. >> We may still have to satisfy our citizenry with a bridge, but it may not be the best direction to take to do it
through that particular process that we originally envisioned. And and I think that's an important thing to see is is that um there's this natural back and forth and it it I think it's
incumbent upon us. After all, staff works for us. So I don't think there's a a a a a an attempt at malfeasants or an attempt to hide or an attempt to to do anything
that that has ulterior motives to it. I think it's that staff gets ahead of us naturally speaking because they're the ones working the process. by the time it gets to us, >> it's easy for them to say, "Yep, we've
sort of put a wrap on this and here you go, commissioners. You just need to sign off on it." And they don't say that. But it can get for especially us when we're new. You can feel that way. So, we have to challenge it. We have to question it
and and and appreciate that they're not necessarily trying to sneak anything through us. They really aren't. They've just gotten to the point where they have a perspective. So, take us through that, staff. Walk us through how you got here
because I want to understand it the way you understand it. And maybe when we're done, we'll all be on the same page, but maybe we won't. And and it's again, it goes to intent. I I I never believe that at our level of government, anybody
who's involved at our level of government does so for nefarious or personal benefit reasons. Jesus, none of us are getting rich here. You know, really, none of us, this is a difficult
job to to deal with that. We're the closest government to the people. they can reach out and get us and talk to us. And it's a hard job. You know, none of us commissioners are getting rich doing this. We do it because there's this
basic intent to serve and help the community as the best as we can do. And we need their help to do it. We need to be a team to do it. That doesn't mean that when you know the the split end keeps running the wrong route, you don't
say to him in the huddle, you know, get your head screwed on, right? Because, you know, you're costing us points. We could do that among ourselves. But we all got to believe in each other that our intent is honorable. And when we don't feel that way or when there are
people who believe that we're here for nefarious reasons, one or a number of us, that's just so undermining and it's just so unfair. Not just is it unfair to the people who who are being who it's being insinuated about, but to us as well and to the citizens at large in
this city who most of whom say, "You're our representatives. do your goddamn jobs and let me raise my family and enjoy my life. I don't want to have to do this crap. Thank you for doing it. And and and you know it again
intent and heart and I think that bridges a lot of this gap and you can see what happens when there are those among us who are looking to undermine us. >> Thank you so so much for not saying much today.
Oh my sorry. >> If if you're going to move on, we're going to take a break if we're >> just I'll do a close and then we can move into the next section >> because it's halfway to lunch. I just want to make that work. >> Yep. I got you. >> I just need a cigarette. You know, Pete, you always keep me honest. I understand.
So let let me get back to the to the effort that was just raised and the effort and and Lyn's going to talk a little bit about this about how city management and the council manager form has evolved over time but originally this was this concept this is the lane in which the council was involved on clearly policy
and this is the lane of your administration the day-to-day function um and that has worked for many many organizations and everybody kind of gets through that but what you've seen over time as you move from and you'll You'll know see some background in this. In the early days of council manager forms of
government, most of the cities were being built. So who did they hire? Engineers because they built things. They were building infrastructures and water plants and sewers and all that. So the early city managers were engineers. Um many many of them and they said, you
know, there's one way to design a bridge or there's a way to design a street or whatever the case was. So that was kind of this line of demarcation that came forward. Now what's happened is over time it's more like the ying and the yang where there's a little bit of that's not the best way. There's a little bit of understanding of
as a manager as they've evolved into professional administrators and it's not to say that you can't be an engineer or a police chief or anything to move in but as you get this broad concept of understanding the local government function. They have to understand that day-to-day function, but they also got to kind of understand they're not the
sixth commissioner, but they have to understand how the five of you talk and your viewpoints as as citizens, as part-time citizens, as in the role that you play as an elected official is not your your chosen profession, but you're doing this for the good of the community. You're going to have
knowledge and perspectives and a relationship with your community constituents that a manager and a staff can't have because you're elected. It's a different relationship. And so you're going to have different thoughts and opinions. And to be effective, you're going to help influence those from your conversations as a group. And the
manager is also going to be effective to say, "All right, I hear what you're saying, but here are some of the downsides from a policy standpoint." Not that at the end of the day, you make the call. You're you're you're the policy makers at the end. I used to joke with my staff. Sometimes they a council that I've worked with made a decision that I didn't think was in the best interest,
but at the end of the day, I respect our plan. Our plan is there's elected officials that are citizens that get to make policy. Our job is to give them the best information we can about the course of action we think makes sense. And I will tell you in most of my
organizations probably 90 95% of the time we were in agreement. But just as you mentioned, Bill, there's times where they didn't. And I my staff used to get frustrated. I said, "Guys, you're you know, who's a successful batter in in MLB? They hit 30%, maybe 33%. we're
hitting 90 95%. That means we're doing our job. But at the end of the day, you have a chance to make that policy because that's the structure of the government. That's why managers do what they do. That's why ICMA is in place because we respect that at the end of the day, it's your call. It's our job to give you the best information as
possible to make that discussion. So, that's part of what we're we're talking through there. Uh Lynn, before we go into um excuse me, before we go into uh the break, is there anything you wanted to add? uh you're going to carry kind of the next piece talk about structures and charters and different options and how
things operate in different forms of government as well. But Len, any anything you want to add? >> No, Doug, what you just added was very helpful and I'll wait to cover mine uh after we get back from the break. >> Okay. Gotcha. All right. I am showing 1030 >> 10:45.
>> 10:45. You got it. All right. Take a quick break. Hey, Doug. >> Hey. Just want to double check that you're you'll be you're ready to queue up here next. >> I am. And I was just texting you because I wasn't sure if you'd stepped out or
not. what I'm seeing is the room as a whole, but um I was texting you that I'm worried my part may seem a little redundant. >> That's all right. We'll just go through it and um I want to make sure they understand context because at the end of the day, what we want to try to land on is that here's what the charter is. And
if you don't like the charter, then that's a different story. These are even if you look at different charters that's not a solution to what I'm trying to use that as kind of a benchmark to say even if you look at a different structure of government it doesn't get you what you're trying to do because even under those forms it doesn't work but here's
the path the next one to say okay so let's not worry about changing the charter let's talk about our how we manage the charter and the policy we have in place today >> well and I feel like they just got there with going through the manager doing the one-on- ones I mean they've really well
four out of the five it or three out of the five got there. The I I don't know that the other two as we both know and of course Duval didn't speak up at all. >> Um >> I'm gonna I'll drop that this one. I I I I wanted because I know where he's at in the other. I'm going to have to talk to
him about relationships and things of that that'll you know I realize that's part of it, right? >> But I I just told Jerome as well. I'm not I bet you know everybody's going to have to participate in this one. I let it go for the foundational work. Uh but certainly as we move into the discussions of the path forward, that's where I want to make sure he gets his
thoughts. But he may have some questions for you as a structure in governance as well because he did serve on a charter charter review commission. >> Right. Okay. Well, good. I'll anticipate that then and I may go a little faster, less storytelling just because I feel like they've kind of I mean, I'll be
thorough. Don't don't don't get me wrong. I'll be thorough, but I you know, I will move it a good clip. Uh I was actually very glad they took the break. um you know after you drink a lot of water or whatever you know it was good to get up and move. So yeah >> I feel like it's a good flow. I really do. So thanks.
>> Sounds like a plan. >> All right. See you in a little bit. >> See you in a bit. Bye. >> Bye bye. the method. I'm going to say manager. >> Sure. >> I'm going to turn it back to uh Mr. Thomas. >> Okay, great. All right. Um I was talking
to Lynn to make sure she was all set. Lynn, are you all queued up at your end? >> Yes. >> Okay, gotcha. All right. I'm going to You just let me know when you want to advance the slides as we go forward. Um because so much of what we talked about um this morning is really based in
rooted in charter and I thought it would be helpful to have Lynn given her context with the league and and training officials and also serving on and helping boards as they're going through charter review commissions and things of that nature that she could add a voice and a and and some background and context that might be resonate with you
as elected officials in terms of your thoughts and impressions. So she's going to go a little bit back about your structure of government, what you see, what how other structures of government are put together and limitations and structures and and administrative policies as well. So the this is just
more context to understand the nature of where we are today, but also so that you get an idea because I know both of us had watched some other meetings and there's concepts about well this city operates this way or this charter operates that way. We thought it'd be helpful to at least provide some context uh in that in the form of that
conversation. So with that, Lynn, I'll turn it to you. Just let me know when you want me to advance slides. Okay. >> All right. Great. Thank you. And again, it's a real pleasure to be with you this morning. When you think about the forms of government themselves and the
municipal level specifically, most of what we brought over from Great Britain in the early 1600s reflected their systems. And obviously as government grew more complex, particularly in the
1890s, there was a desire to maybe move away from some of the original forms. So I say that to put a little bit of the history. I'm not going to go all the way back to 1600 except to say that that's where some of this comes from, but I want to go through the form of government, talk a little bit about the
other forms. So let's dive into what is council manager or commission manager. And we do use those two terms interchangeably. What I mean is the elected legislative body. Council is the more traditional municipal word, but it wasn't genderneutral. So a lot of
municipalities turned to commission so that they could simply address the member as commissioner and not worry about council man, council woman, council member, council person, etc. Within this, there are a variety of ways to elect the mayor. So we'll talk about the mayor separately and then we'll go
back to the commission as a whole. The council manager form commission manager form was really in essence built upon the corporate model which is that voters like stockholders appoint um a a group
or elect a council to then be their representatives. this group, this business model group then say on a day-to-day basis we're going to have a chief executive officer or CA CEO. Some use the term CEO on the
municipal side that then is the manager. It allows this board of directors to be the ones making policy that are driving the decisions and relying upon a professional to make sure that daytoday
whatever it is whether it's a government or a corporation is running. Okay. using that as the structure. It recognizes the voter, the stockholder. It recognizes that appointed or elected board and it recognizes this professional in charge
of the day-to-day. When the idea of the council or the commission in the whole, they've either been elected from a ward, a seat, a district, or at large. And then in one of the ways a chair, a
council chair or mayor is then also elected. And that varies across the board. But that's the person who's going to run this elected council or commission's day-to-day um meetings as far as whether you meet once a month, four times a month, whatever. That is
the person who has that role as well as some leadership roles that go into the position of mayor. the charter, the governing document. And in my um classes, we often talk about how the charter is a social contract. It
is a contract because that is the law, the government. Even the Magna Carta coming out of Great Britain in the 1200s, the word cart uh carta contract means legally binding. But if you think
of it as a social contract, it is we the people say we do want to self-govern. How are we going to do it? We're going to put the core fundamentals and some structure into a document. We're going to vote on it. We're going to change it when it's necessary, but it's our document. That's the importance of the
charter. In the council manager form, the charter also recognizes positions like an attorney and a clerk or records officer. The charter may even recognize the creations of certain departments whether that is under the manager and in
a couple of cases sometimes in Florida very rarely is a department away from the manager but the fact that the council or commission can create a department or direct the manager who created department is a hallmark of the
form of government itself. Next slide Doug please. All right. Now, in the 1890s, the notion was government is becoming more complex, and we want to try and find a way to put a wedge between what
is administrative and what is legislative. We've elected these people to be our representatives. We know that we are endowing them with the ability to adopt law to guide a vision for this particular city, town, or village. and were worried
that something administrative, you know, is there a way for us to draw a line between these things? In the very early 1900s, as Doug mentioned, it was primarily engineers because so many cities were in the business of roads, water, wastewater, storm water, you name
it. And engineers had a good background for that. Over time, this notion of a professional administrator could come from a variety of backgrounds. It could be finance. It could be planning. It could be engineering. It could be law.
But then you study and add to that the fundamentals of management, of administration, of process and procedure, of policy, and guiding policy and implementing policy. And you arrive with the early 1910s. This starts to
take off as a conversation. We get interrupted by World War I, come back from it, and more and more local governments are adopting a council manager form of government. And since World War II, it has taken off in an exponential sense to become the most
prevalent form for the about 18,000 municipalities across the United States. It's also the most prevalent in those states that allow it for county government such as Sarasota County is a commission manager form of government as
well. By about World War II, it had become prevalent enough that the model city charter first written by Teddy Roosevelt and a group of New York citizens during the time that they were taking apart Tammy Hall, the National Civic League came back and said, "We
we've done this model now for decades. we actually want to endorse the council manager form of government uh because we feel that it presents the best model going forward for a municipality and then later for a county. So the
materials that I'm using today largely pulled from the international city county management association some national league of cities no is the national association of counties the Florida league of cities material as well that is in this you just need to know that's where this is pulled from in
terms of the history in the view of people for best practices the reason this form is in the model is that it presents like a business model a way for an elected body to play to its best strengths which are representation and
legislation, visioning and making sure in an oversight capacity that the government is responsible, responsive, proactive where it can be, that it has met all of its fiduciary responsibilities.
Those are that that core model. On the manager's side, you have a manager who h is endowed through the charter with the responsibility of managing the municipality on a day-to-day basis and under his or her guidance are those then
core functions taking place. So that's how the model works. For Florida, it is about um two not quite 2/3, but it's well over half of the municipalities in Florida. And for cities above 80,000, it
is 30 out of the 38 largest cities. Right now, Northport is the 29th largest. So, in the top 30 in terms of size, that's the 2025 population figures. Remember, we're always a year behind. So, the Bieber book I'm quoting
is 2024, but those are the latest population figures. I think for context I need to say that in Florida the median city halfway down to 411 it's a population of 6,400.
So Northport is very large. I know if you think of Tampa and Orlando or Miami, Jacksonville, it does not feel that level of large but the 29th largest out of 411 is large. So it's a large population.
that median of 6,400. Uh when you're looking at a lot of the smaller cities, we've got cities with a council as small as three and up to Jacksonville, which is a council of 19. Having five is the most common number. Of course, we also have some sevens.
You've got some other numbers with non- voting mayors. This is where sixes come in and eights, etc. Just wanted to share that part for background. And in Florida, every municipality has a children. Our smallest city right now,
the Bay Lake and Lake Buenav Vista, what are known as the Disney cities are both about 15 population and Marineland is at 20. and they have charters and in standing they have every legal responsibility under that charter as
every as well as all of the home rule authority that Jacksonville does which is our largest city at a million 5,000. So that's the framework that this comes from. Next slide please Doug. Some of what we call the hallmarks or
characteristics of this form is that the manager whether defined by charter or in some cases by ordinance which we'll talk about the manager is responsible for hiring and firing staff. Now in some larger cities a department head can make
those recommendations with the manager's approval. Right? And in some cities when for example a manager recommends a director it requires council or commission approval for director level only. All others are hired through the
manager. The manager prepares agenda material and recommendations provides briefing through the mayor and the and the members of the council or commission. These are usually one-on-one as you all have alluded to. They can also be workshop related where the
entire body is present but done solely under very strange public meeting laws. The third hallmark of the council manager commission manager form is that the manager prepare and present an annual budget. Now there are other
characteristics that over time become quote like a tradition but these are the hallmarks that set this form apart from other forms of municipal government. Next slide, please, Doug. Now, I'm going to use two words that
don't refer to a mayor's uh personality uh or anything else, weak and strong. It per it what it refers to is the language in the charter. The weak mayor form, weak mayor and council, is what we brought over from Great Britain. All of
the directors would sit in front of the council or the commission and report directly to them in in the 1600s. This is actually pretty effective because you've got a constable for your law enforcement side. There might have been a volunteer fire department. You've got
a little bit of public works, right? And then you're just doing general governance. Government is not very complex. As government became more complex, this form of government really struggled because when your council or commission are part-time, it's very
difficult to direct departments on a day-to-day basis. But that is the hallmark of the weak form. There is no centralized administrative position. Each one of these directors reports and does the work at the direction of the council
commission. The mayor in this form, the reason we use the word word uh weak is that this mayor often did not vote. The mayor rotated among the members of the council and served a one-year term and was largely ceremonial,
running the meeting, cutting ribbons, uh, presiding over something in an intergovernmental sense, but not having any other authority. Contrast this with what developed in the 1800s, late 1700s
into the 1800s as far as the United States. This model of a strong mayor in which the mayor is the elected executive and acts in a full-time administrative capacity for the municipality directly elected by the voters and the charter
says the mayor will hire and fire all staff. The mayor will prepare a budget. The mayor might attend council meetings or might not, but the mayor is there to implement whatever the council or the commission does.
Now, in Florida under strong mayor, we have a couple cases where the mayor is a voting member of the council. There's only two of that form. The rest of the strong mayors do not vote. All right. In both of these forms, it's
important to note that through either the mayor or director positions, that is where the involvement is going to come with the council or the commission. It is under the mayor, the mayor or the mayor's staff member might say, "Yes, I'll arrange a meeting for you with the
public works staff or with the police chief or with the fire chief." under the weak mayor form that ran through the director who was the direct report then to the council or the commission. It's just important in that sense of history
that all of that siphons like in a uh a funnel through the lead position whether that is a strong mayor or whether it's through the directors that are reporting to a weak mayor and council. As I've mentioned before, it's the most
prevalent form council manager and for cities your size. If we're looking 50,000 and above, 80,000 and above, I wanted to include the other statistics. Now, strong mayor gets mentioned a lot for Florida because it is in Jacksonville, it is in Miami, it's
Hyalia, it's Orlando, it's Tampa, it's St. Petersburg. However, there are council manager cities now that are the fourth largest in terms of population. Port St. Lucy, Cape Coral that are quite large cities with the council manager or
commission manager form of government mixed in with the 10 largest cities for Florida. So, that's an important distinction. Next slide, please, Doug. All right. We do not see a lot of the weak mayor form with the ceremonial
mayor and the council and commission making all their collective decisions. We don't see that in cities really above much between 15,000 to 18,000 and smaller. Now Florida happens to have quite a few governments that are in that
boat though about 80 out of the 411. The strong mayor figure is 40 to 45 right now at 43. I often make the comment that you could have three or four people read some of our hybrid charters and come up with different answers as to their form
of government, which is why a lot of these numbers are about rather than absolute. It's also important to note that some of the strong mayors hire a CEO or an administrator to help assist them. Some strong mayors use a chief of staff and
that person has also been a campaign director or a campaign advisor. It's a little bit more of a political position. We're very careful with those terms. Uh in the profession of who works within cities, we try to be very careful with those terms. There is a word uh very
strong association with the word manager, a different association with a CEO, a different association for a chief of staff. And that's important too to ICMA when they're recognizing who the people are that are joining them as an
association. And that's one of the reasons for the caution in the terms is they're not interchangeable. There are hallmarks that go with each position. There are definite characteristics, not a uniform job description per se, but definite characteristics that go with
each one of those positions. All right, next slide. Doug, before I move on any further, are there any questions about council manager as a form commission manager or the weak and strong forms uh under the different
mayors uh either for Florida or from a national perspective? >> No. >> No. All right, then. Next slide, Doug. All right. So, looking a little more deeply into commission manager for the sake of Northport, right?
By charter, the issue of a non-interference clause has already been discussed, but you should know there's two ways to get there. There are cities where it's included by charter. There are cities where it's included by ordinance. Why the difference? Because most cities have evolved into the form.
If your city had originally been say council strong mayor like Fort Meyers, they made the transition in 2005 to council manager, commission manager, right? As you go through that, some of what you're doing goes into the first
charter change, but perhaps all of it didn't go through. So, some of it might come by ordinance. Similarly, cities that are council weak mayor might have taken ordinance steps to then create the position of a manager and start the transition to the form of government.
And it may be that they've not amended the charter to that level. But a charter obviously being law and an ordinance being law, the issue is it's gotten there one way or the other. It is recommended in the model city
charter to have the non-inference statement adopted and of course they give the options of whether that's ordinance or charter because it varies in some states as to what they're allowed to do. And then in terms of the actual
policies, most cities adopt their policies by either ordinance or by resolution so that they have standing within the city government. And the policy, much like Northport's policy, can get into the actual specifics. It
might start, for example, with how you get an orientation when you're first elected or appointed to your council or commission position. And then it states what the manager will be doing going forward in terms of communication with staff or to get staff brought in with
the manager. The important thing to take away from it is that the manager in in recommending this particular policy sets out what will be that process and that the commission in adopting policies related
to itself that's for the commission. for example, how you're going to conduct your public meetings, how you're going to communicate because of sunshine law with one another. Is that going to be in a workshop? Is that going to be, you know, whatever processes you put in place? Those are the commission's
policies for the commission. What the manager recommends for the administrative part of it applies then to the manager and the staff. All right, next slide. One of the things you all have talked about with the non-interference policy
is, you know, what it has meant to you as an elected official. I did want to offer the perspective that if you ask most employees, they know that this is there because they work for the manager. It's in part to help protect them. Most
city staff don't have the contact manager. And I will share from my own experience. I used to go doortodoor for the city of Tallahassee on annexation. We would have a request from someone on a street. They really wanted to voluntarily annex in by ordinance. I
then spoke to everybody on that street to see if it was more than one property, if they were contiguous, if they met all of the requirements. Well, they might have asked me a question, a really in-depth municipal question. I had a very careful statement to be able to
say, "Let me check with the city manager and we will call you back or I'll be back here in person with that answer." Because I didn't have the right context to give an answer where the manager had the larger perspective, history, what was going on within the county. For
example, I might have just shot my mouth off and said completely the wrong thing. My protection as a municipal employee came through my manager and I was grateful for that clause. All right. It also helps the manager preserve a
communication thread with either directors or other members of the staff. And I don't need to read to you, but ultimately when a manager makes a recommendation, there's the context, there's the perspective with all of the communication being known. Next slide,
please. I did want to include some peer cities to talk about comparability. Northport is extremely unique because you're one of what are known as the generally developed not to name companies in specific but you all were developed in a
way that not a lot of Florida municipalities for your population size Deltona Coast and were developed like you by different developerdriven companies. I included Deerfield Beach
for scope of service and geography. Largo, even though they're not as directly coastal as you are, you also have very similar scope of service and work. You're also on the West Coast together. I think it's hard when you're looking for comparability. Uh, and I
think this is a real struggle for the municipalities that were were created like you. you are not as similar to something like Clearwater, even though your population's fairly similar, right? There's not going to be a lot of shared
history. When you incorporated in 1959, it was at a time where there were less of the developer-driven Palm Coast, Palm Bay had yet to come into existence. Same with Deltona just getting started. So your history is not as long as some of
the cities that are celebrating 100 plus anniversaries yet. When you look at comparisons, when your manager and his team say, "I want to reach out to four or five cities and see what they're doing on issue X." Right?
That comparability can really help you as a council and commission with where you pull your perspective. Then who's doing the very best at issue A, right? Who in the state? Well, it's all well and fine to point towards
cities and say, I see that they're doing one, two, and three. But how do you then compare it to Northport? It's very important with the comparison we always use is apples to oranges because no two cities are exactly the same. You can't
get apple to apple. Your goal is apples to oranges. And with a grouping like this, hopefully in your comparisons, you're going to be apples to oranges. The hard part is when you reach out to a city that has nothing in common with Northport and say, "How are you doing
it?" Now you've jumped into apples to tomatoes. Tomatoes are a fruit, but they usually don't belong in fruit salad. So the knowledge is one thing, but the wisdom is making sure you only reach out to actual peer cities. and your city may
have found that you've got some real twins when it comes to a specific service. Whether that is related to uh law enforcement, whether it's related to water, wastewater, storm water, whatever the twin is, it's as close as you're going to get. It's that apples to
oranges comparison. Knowing that and having that, for example, included in your agenda item helps you know that other experts were tapped, that the subject matter experts from Florida are on the page and that this is what they're doing. Here's how
they got there. Here's why they got there. And you can take that knowledge, as you all talked about in your conversations, you're looking for that context. You're looking for that perspective. Our cities often say, "Why would I reinvent the wheel? I'm going to
pick up the phone and I'm going to call another city and I'm going to ask them how they're doing it provided that it's a peer city and that you're getting a genuine apples to oranges comparison. So, next slide, please. All right, I went through that fairly
quickly. I would welcome any questions or discussions. Please know that you are not alone in your elected roles and that among your colleagues around the state at for example whether it's the Maninnesota League of Cities or other that might be a regional group if you
look on a statewide group gaining the perspective of others who hold the office as you do can be very valuable because you need to know that you're not alone and you need to know how cities across the state are approaching these
really tough tough, complex, and complicated issues. So, I share all of that to say um I'd welcome any questions. >> Also will tell you that there are times where when Lynn talked about peer cities,
many organizations will have different sets of tier cities. So, like for example, in Lakeland, we compared ourselves to comparable generating and distribution electric utilities. And so, we're looking at rates and structures and dividends that came back to the general government. We took cities that
ran comparable services and comparable sizes to us and but we were looking at other services that were different. We would use a different set of pure cities. So it's not a necessarily a one-sizefits-all. We get back to this whole effort of context that we talked about earlier. It depends on what you're measuring and how you're trying to
accomplish those things as well. But um I often will will say as well rarely is other going back to the 1776 when we had the revolution rarely is current local government revolutionary. It's more evolutionary and as Lynn said we
typically say probably not the first cap that's dealt with this issue. Let's find out what's worked or not worked and lessons learned from those communities to deal with it. But in the same token, if you're dealing with a community that's 3,000 in population, their dynamics are entirely different than a community of close to 100,000. So just
because it's work one, it doesn't mean that you can't still learn some things from them, but you have to keep that context of size and dynamics and history of the community into play as well. So um David, I know you served on a charter, as I recall from our conversations, charter review
commission. So hopefully most of what we saw there, any any comments that you might have with regards to the structure and the government and the processes involved. >> No, sir. >> You're good. Okay. All right. Anything else before we move into what I suspect will be the meat and bones of why we're here today. So, uh, if that's the case,
let me talk a little bit about what we've entitled the path forward. And what I want to do is give you a series of recommendations that either I personally or we see in the business or in my dealings with
other communities as I do a consulting operation across the country about how they navigate the space that we're talking about here today. your role as an elected official, the role of the charter that plays, the administrative policies, and you understanding the
citizen policymaking role and responsibilities as an elected official. And so, um, this is something that in different states operate differently. When I was in Michigan as a manager, we could have, we couldn't do serial meetings, but I could meet with two or three of my council members out of a a
group of seven at a time and have a conversation. and then I could meet with two or three others and then have another meeting with them in a process. And that was totally that was so the state standard was different in Michigan than it was in Florida. When I mentioned earlier, one of the first things I learned in Florida is we had this thing
called the Government of Sunshine, an open meetings act. And and and broadly interpreted, and I'll let Michael correct me if I mistake this wrong, but broadly interpreted is that you as elected officials can't have conversations with one of your colleagues on a topic that conceivably
could be a legislative issue in the future. So that is an entirely different landscape than we had in Michigan, for example. And so there are communities that say, "Well, how does this work?" Uh, and that's really the nature of this concept of a one-on-one. But I will also
tell you that I certainly as a city manager, I've been to multiple chamber events and community events and council members are there, commissioners are there, and there's some conversation, but there have to be sensitive about what you say or what you can't say in those meetings. But it doesn't mean you can't have an interaction because
certainly you're going to have to work together as a team. You're going to have to be able to have conversations. You have to kind of understand who your who your colleagues are, but you have to be careful about what that conversation entails that it doesn't stretch into a discussion about something that could be legislative in nature. Now, it's not
saying you can't have that, but if you're going to have that conversation and it's going to involve legislation in the future, then you have to advertise in a public meeting. So, rarely do you find council members getting together for a cup of coffee and calling a public meeting. So, you've got to be sensitive what you can do. Now, this is the
dynamic of the whole concept of a one-on-one. So, this was new to me when I first came to Florida, and Lynn told me about what this looked like when I attended my orientation session here in state of Florida. And the concept is is that as a manager, I can have a conversation with you individually as an
elected official and tell you background and insight and get your thoughts and opinions, but I can't tell one of your colleagues the direction that you thought or your issues or concerns because then in essence I'm violating that concept. So the manager is in this
unique perspective here in Florida where they've got to try to find where the sweet spot is. And so after in my case I had seven uh you've got five here but in my in Lakeland I had seven. So I'd have seven meetings and then I'd try to figure out where that all kind of landed
and then we would end up having a public conversation about what that topic was and I'd kind of say here's where I think we ought to be going and here's the issues and dynamics based on the insights of what I've learned without telling all of you individually where you're at. But it's the first time you've probably as a public body heard
this conversation and you can imagine things change once you start to hear perspectives and thoughts and opinions differently. Then you get into a dialogue and so you kind of set the table but then you kind of move things around based on those conversations that happen. I've often wondered, and this is
more of a theoretical question, how a manager can't do that, but a a reporter can call all of you and get your thoughts and report exactly what your thoughts and opinions are and put in the paper, and that's not a violation, but managers can't do that because they're they're part of the process. But in essence, it's it's prevented to do that because you should be conducting the
city's business in public based on the laws of the state of Florida. So the bottom line is most cities uh especially operating under council manager form and I suspect Lincoln time in person for strong mayor forms of governance as well these conversations where you get a
chance to interact with you hear what's going on you hear from staff you hear from the manager you hear your concerns coming back and forth in the process I want to highlight that that practice to the extent that you don't start telling what other council members or commissioners are saying to each other totally conforms with the open meetings
act. It's the way in which business is done here in Florida. It adds another step of complexity, but it is what it is going further. So, one of the things that I've understood that here in Florida or in in Northport that you've traditionally uh not done that we have seen uh in other communities, including
the ones that I've managed as well is involvement of senior staff in those one-on-one meetings. I've heard this discussion about I want to get different thoughts, different ideas, different impressions. And so many times as a manager when I conduct in my one-on- ons, if I was dealing with a code
enforcement issue, I would have my community development director andor the code enforcement director be part of those conversations. So that as a manager, I certainly am responsible for understanding the context of the entirety of the organization, but I don't know all the details of a code enforcement issue. Those are why you'd
have department heads and other issues and other people that that deal in the trenches on those matters. And so one of the things that I'm suggesting that might be of assistance that you've not I I guess historically done here is that as you are dealing with issues of policy
um the to involve your department heads and youror appropriate levels of personnel as you're unpacking an issue during your 101s to understand what that looks and feels like. And now that's totally that's not it doesn't require changing your process. It doesn't
require changing your ordinance. car part changing your your charter, but it's another way for you to understand I heard Phil say earlier to understand context and background to understand a different perspective. And so you're absolutely correct. Typically, as materials are coming before you for
consideration, you're getting the best and the the the collective wisdom of your staff. But the bottom line is this is an opportunity during a one-on-one where you have the opportunity to address questions to the people who run that program. Just as you said, whether it's the parks rec director, the police department, the fire chief, whatever the
case would be. And so it would depend on what the topic would be there. And it may be an issue that staff's driving to you because one-on- ones are often staff driven. But in the same token, most of the time when I did one-on- ones, I'd hear from commissioners, I want to talk about X or Y or Z, whatever that topic would be. You're elected officials, you
engage with your citizens, you get those thoughts and opinions, and you want to understand something better. So, one of the ways in which we could do this is to have an opportunity for number one staff to be involved in helping get brief to give that 360 conceptual background uh
during your one-on-one session. So, it's free flowing of conversation going back and forth uh but also to give you a better understanding of details that maybe just don't come up when you're trying to figure something out along the line. So, I see a hand raised. Go ahead.
>> Yeah. Um, but we do, you know, one-on ones to me, you know, typically before my one-on-one every week, I'm not sending city manager my list of one-on-one items to discuss, nor
is he providing that to me. We sit down very often. The subjects overlap. If I have six or seven items on my list, he might have five or six on his. Two or three of them may be the same issues. maybe coming at them from a different standpoint. Where I see this of value is
in our briefings. >> You know, mo most of the briefings I go to aren't I mean, none of the briefings are just me and Jerome. They're typically with deputy city manager, assistant city manager. Um, depending on the whatever's
on the agenda, there may be department heads who are there. >> If it's parks and reccks related, Sandy would be there. If it's if it's land use related, um very often Elena or or a lawyer or somebody would be there to answer questions that a commissioner
might have. To me, that's the way to to get those answers. Now, if there was a subject totally removed from what's on an agenda, >> then like I can say, hey, you know, we're going to be meeting Jerome. I got some questions about this subject. He
can decide. I mean, if he wants someone to be there for the oneonone or if he in fact wants to simply just dial them up since we may have a dozen items to discuss and when we get to that item, hold on, let me get so and so on the phone with you. Again, it's the attempt
to make sure that the information can then get disseminated to all of us equitably so that we can benefit from it. But to me, we sort of do it. The one on I mean, I don't know what's better, the one- on-one or briefing. But to me, they're both invaluable.
>> I mean, and you know, attending them regularly and and and getting the input. To me, that's that's the answer. If I need more than that, >> I ask I just say, "I need more than that. I I really want to spend some time with Sandy talking about her parks, you
know, can I can you set that facilitate that for me?" He he's not going to spend his time doing that. I mean, there's lots of questions I ask him don't know the answers to because how the hell do you know the answers about $350 million? >> I mean, you can't know everything. >> And a lot of times what might happen if
more than one of us are kind of digging at the same issue or topic, >> then staff will schedule one-on-one deep dives >> into that topic. >> Sure. And that's really the latter what I'm getting. step aside from the piece of saying agenda prep because maybe you
got a major issue in War Mineral Springs and Parks and Record are going to be involved and legal involved and whatever the case would be. So that's kind of preparing you for the agenda piece of it and to make sure you understand those context coming into discussions. But in the same token, there may be something else that is of interest to one of you
or more than one of you. Once again, that's that's the other piece that managers have to try what managers typically freak out on is if they're not aware of an issue that maybe one commissioner has and that same issue may be something three or four of you have but hasn't been communicated to him or
her that's an issue because if it's one then all right we're going to deal with that that one off but if two or three of you have the issue then maybe there's a bigger issue I need to deal with as an organization to address that and so the point of saying what you were mentioning Phil is that for breathing purposes for upcoming agenda. You probably have some
of that involvement going on, but there may be other issues you all want to learn about or you've heard about or you're hearing noise about or you're particularly interested as an individual. That's what I'm getting at to say, okay, how do we deal with that? Because I've heard the conversations
about, hey, I can't even talk to a staff member and I want to learn more. I want to make sure I fully understand it or I want to make sure that we've done our homework as a staff to address it. That's kind of what I'm getting at with this context. So, it's a little bit of a broadening of that role of saying, "How
do I learn more about a topic of interest and still be consistent with our charter and our policy?" So, this is an opportunity that you could say, "Okay, if it's an agenda item and you've got staff briefing you, I'm going to make the assumption that conversation's already occurring." But let's say a code
enforcement issue is of concern to some one of your districts and I'm getting a lot of noise about that, but it's only in that district. The concept here is that you would be able to go to your manager and say, "Listen, I'm hearing this noise and I've got a problem. I don't understand it." So that that as it
relates to that commissioner, drone could establish a staff meeting at your next one-on-one so that they're you're not you're still using your one-on- ones to brief yourself, but I understand you do those twice a month. And so at the following one-on- ones, if if you want a particular issue you want to talk through, you would say, "I need more
information on X, Y, or Z." and then Jerome can schedule that person in to have that person be there so that you can ask those questions. Now I will tell you sometimes that's a department head. Sometimes that's a department head and assistant or sometimes that's a line level employee with a department head to understand it because just as you said
not everybody knows the entirety of the operation and depending on the scope of what you're looking for. It would give you that opportunity to engage with staff within boundaries but still give you the opportunity to ask those questions and learn more about a given topic. And I will tell you that happens
a lot. A lot of organizations do this. Every every manager in every community handles this a little bit differently. But I will tell you that that is a fairly acceptable way of dealing with the types of issues that you're facing as one of these strategies where you can have that conversation during a
one-on-one and get briefed about the information or material you've got. So basically in order to get that information, number one, you got to tell your manager consistent with the charter, this is the topic I want to learn more about so that he can schedule whoever needs to be at that meeting and
then have that meeting take place next. Now, what you just said, Phil, is important. The discussion for these briefings on one-on- ones, and I'm going to talk about workshops here shortly, is critical because in the absence of that, you're just getting information on paper. You don't have that context. And
I'm going to keep talking about context today, but you're not going to have that background, that briefing, that understanding beyond what's on the written documents of whatever material you get on your agenda. So that concept of participating in oneon ones is so critical because that's where you're going to gain information versus someone
that's just reading about in the paper or watching your meetings or looking at your agenda packets because there's always those questions and issues. And I'm going to go back to our eye process. We all process information differently. You need some people need it different types of information in different ways. Some are more verbal, some are high
level, some are very detail oriented. There's no right or wrong, but those one-on-one meetings are so critical to have to understand that. And quite frankly, as it relates to your governance, the more you have that background knowledge, the more efficient you are when you're in public session at
a at a dis in your meetings because otherwise you're ask questions that quite frankly probably have been addressed or couldn't have been addressed in a one-on-one or otherwise. And I'm not saying that the the deal is is is done because you never know how the five of you going to do once you're all together in a session because you can't have those conversations about
with each other or the manager can tell you how different count council members or commissioners are reacting to. So let me let me land on that for a second just to have a little bit of a conversation about that approach um to give some additional access. It's one of multiple strategies, but it would be an
opportunity to engage more in during one-on- ones, every other one-on-one for issues of topics or concerns that may not even be on your agenda at this point. They could be your but it may be something entirely different. >> I look at it this way. We have that already. >> Okay,
>> with the one-on ones, let's say it's not on the agenda. We've already had our agenda briefing, but we've had some squables out in the community that we want to bring to the city manager. Mhm. >> I've done that in past practice to where I said, "Hey, I need the police chief here to got an issue. Somebody's
complaining about X. Could you have them at our next one-on-one?" Okay? >> Cuz I don't want to tie up every single director coming into that meeting. >> It's specific. So, you can ask for that staff to be there and they will be there or it will be scheduled at a different
time when it's convenient for all three of us. Let's say the chief's out of town on a business thing. Jerome could say, "Hey, we can do it next Tuesday. Is that okay?" And we'll move the one-on-one to Tuesday. Absolutely. We're all available. But I feel I may I'm not speaking for anybody else. That's
handled for me and my needs. Now, other commissioners may have other needs, but it's available right now. >> Okay. So, >> that's my opinion. Well, I asked the group and I appreciate because that's exactly that's exactly what I'm proposing that if there's an issue a challenge beyond because if now let's
say two or three of you an issue at that point maybe it's a workshop because now it's there's a majority of the commission that has a concern about an issue or wants to know more then it's appropriate to necessarily agree but if there's something that's one off of of unique interest to you that's appropriate that you don't understand what that looks and feels like and you
want to have that time. So, I appreciate you availed yourself of that. I want to just ask the rest of the the the commission, is that something you've done or what concerns do you have or what thoughts or fears do you have about that approach or does that start to get you a little more access than what you might feel like? Cuz part of what I have
seen, I get the sense that we've kind of gotten wrapped around the the wild wrapped around the axles and and I realize there's a lot of personalities and dynamics and feelings and all that. My approach is to help you get past that to the extent I can. and I want to give you some tools to make that work. So,
this is one of our suggestions. I appreciate your thoughts if that makes some sense or um if there's concerns with that approach. So, I'll >> I operate very similarly to the mayor. Um I tend to use my agenda briefings a
little bit more for that purpose because often times the person I need to speak with is attending that anyway. So, I'll review the agenda first and if there's a topic I know I need a deep dive on. I'll let Jerome know. Um, and a lot of times
that will happen at the agenda briefing. But I've also done exactly what the mayor has done. I have a special interest in economic development. So, every couple of months Jerome will schedule time for the manager of
economic development to join us. and we have that conversation, a deeper dive. Um, sometimes I have concerns, sometimes it's just I need a more detailed update, what's going on. Um, and so I'll sort of
do that in the one-on ones um, exactly the way the mayor does. And I would also underline making full use of the one-on- ons and the agenda briefings is vital to our being ready to have a conversation and
making a good decision on the deis. Now, that's not to say that a commissioner might share their point of view on something that causes me to go, whoa, I never worked at it from that point of
view. But those two meetings are really vital in any workshop too cuz typically workshops proactively are around those topics that have a lot of moving parts and are very complex. So they're vital
um to our being effective up there during a voting meeting. And as I said, even if just to react to this, but just I mentioned before, I know when I've done this as a manager and I've had seven meetings and I kind of think I think where the consensus might be and I
understand where the concerns might be, >> four times out of five, you know, once you go and get together and you start talking about it, there's different thoughts and and it's like squeezing Jell-O. I mean, it's going to come out of different fingers and, you know, those areas. And that's that's the system we have. But the the best the
piece that we're trying to get is we want you to have the best information and to be fully prepared to act upon the issues you've got at the deis and that's an opportunity to do it in >> there's a second piece of this that we haven't addressed and I know it's a concern to some
as as as as we operate and and go through our days you know we were do represent the citizens and we're out there interfacing with them and we get questions questions. >> And sometimes it's not about going to a one-
on-one or a briefing to focus on a matter that's before us as much as it is getting an understanding and a background on a particular subject or area of concern that a citizen may have or group of citizens may have. And there needs to be a vehicle to be able to do
that outside the one-on-one and the briefing. And the way I've dealt with that, because invariably like my response to most citizens, unless it's a subject I really feel I have researched enough and know the answers to, I will say, you know
what, good question. Where's how's the best way for me to get back to you in the next 48 hours >> and then I'm on the phone. If he doesn't pick up, Jerome doesn't pick up, Jason's my next call, Julie is the next girl.
Those are the three. I'll run a circle around until somebody gets back to me and then I can ask my questions. Sometimes it's a question Jerome can answer. Sometimes it's like, "Let me reach out to so and so. I'll get back to you on this." But but it's that's a
piece of this puzzle that is concerning it maybe even more so than than scheduled agenda subjects. Mhm. >> And I know, you know, I'll grab my buddy Dimmitri cuz it's a he he has raised that issue. I I don't mean to speak for
you, but but in a sense, you've raised that and the ability to get quick response. >> You know, nobody wants to wait for an answer. So, if a citizen asks me something, I'd say, you know, >> I think, you know what, before I answer that question, I really want some more background. Let me make a couple calls.
Let me get some more information. let me get back to you within x amount of time. Then I do it. Sometimes if it's convoluted enough or I know this party has interfaced with staff and or me, I don't want to get caught in the game either. Sometimes I'll redirect them
right back to city manager. I say, "Have you talked to the city manager?" Well, no. I called and talked to Ela this Elena person. Well, here you go. She reports, too. So, why don't you call the city manager? because the questions you're asking are best answered by staff. You're going to hear it second or
third hand from me. So, there's a piece of this that's separate and apart from the subjects we've been talking about. And I think it's important because >> yeah, >> it it's disconcerting if nobody gets back to you from staff. And I'm not saying that's a a a practice. I'm just
saying it happens. >> You're an elected official. I've made a commitment to a citizen. I want to I fully get it. and I'm going to give you another strategy to help deal with that issue as well. >> Well, the way that I deal with it, too, is if I have a citizen asking me a question, especially if it's staff related or procedure or complaint or
whatever, code enforcement, whatever the case may be, I always tell them, I give them my business card. I say, "Please send me an email." This way, there's a paper trail. It goes to the city manager. I ask the city manager to get the proper staff involved and keep me in the loop on the progress on what's going
on. That's why most people call me. You're giving out my car. >> Absolutely. >> Remember, I talked about I opted. Everybody does this a little differently. That's okay. You've all got your style. I'm not trying to force you into a corner that you're check. The citizen gets the proper answer from
proper staff through the city manager as we are directed to go through for staff issues is to go through the city manager. So, it's still falls all in line. >> I've done that, too. >> Gotcha. Okay. So I want to I haven't like to hear from both of David and Demetri as well about if this is
something that you know it's not the sole solution. I'm trying to get you a package a smorgus board if you will of options that help you kind of get more information in ways that still is consistent with your charter but get you what I'm what I'm thinking Lynn and I are hearing in terms of concerns. So
appreciate comments or concerns about at least what we're talking about here. Well, with me, I want to relate what uh Commissioner Stokes said regarding the citizens when they reach out to me. Sometimes, you know, I don't hear back
from them. Some and a lot of times I want to hear back from them. When I redirect them to the city manager's office, I don't know the answer. I don't know how it went. Did they get resolved? Did it get resolved? Did
uh what's the outcome? And a lot of times I get the same questions over and over from different citizens. Um and I would like to be included in the process. Um and um I was told that this
is not my lane. This is operational. yet the the the citizens reach out to me with the same questions sometimes and would be nice that I would know the answer and be included at least on the email trail or
>> um so whatever the topic would be if it's been resolved you just want to make sure you know that I've taken off my to-do list and now I've learned a little bit more about what that process and that solution may be because you're likely to get a similar question at some point from a different citizen down the road, right? >> Yeah. Oh yeah. and next time I don't
really have to direct them. I can answer the question themselves. >> You may very well say, "Hey, I've dealt with this issue before. I know exactly the solution." So the question is, I've heard two things. Response time, how quickly we can turn that process around. And number two is being aware of the stats, the resolution.
>> Mhm. And uh also sometimes citizens want to meet with the city manager and me and from up until now it was not allowed if you will. Uh so because it's
operational but I I represent the the constituents I represent the same people that asking me the question and I'm like okay I washed my hands I directed you to the city manager. I don't want to hear from you. That's the perception they get
from from me and that's not really responsible way of answering them because sometimes I would I would follow up with them myself to find out if they got the answer or not.
>> Uh but there were some times when um they wanted to meet with me along with the city manager. Mhm. >> I think it should be should be some type of a practice. It doesn't happen too much too often, but it happens. >> Sure.
>> And uh I always push them away saying, "Hey, I'm not I'm not interested even though I am interested." >> Sure. >> But I cannot make those decisions. So that puts me in a position as though, you know, I'm not as effective
representative for the people. Moreover, I have this impression from them that you know what you can do if you cannot help me out meeting with your city manager. Um what can you do >> besides sitting on the desk? >> Okay. >> Um because you know the people they're
not so much so much concerned about what we vote on so much but they they they are concerned with the issues they have. when I cannot be a part of that process, >> you know, for them it's like
>> it's like they they giving up on me on the city and especially if they they've tried many ways to resolve the issue and it's not been resolved. >> Yeah. >> A lot of times and in their own interest, you know, that might not be appropriate >> way of resolving, but still
>> they feel defeated, if you will. So, so that they would then they come back to me and say, "Listen, I've tried you don't want to you don't want to meet with me in in the presence of the city manager." Um, because that's the leverage they they they have want to
have to have my presence with the meeting. And, you know, to be honest, I don't want to meet, right, because it's it's more time of my of my schedule. But I do
want to meet to resolve help my constituents. >> If if I can add to what Commissioner Pro is saying, um, and I'll be interested in your feedback. I've been involved in some of those. And often times a citizen
wants a commission's involvement, in my case, my involvement because they don't like the answer they're getting from staff. >> Certainly. But if we inject ourselves and we do something different. So when
we inject ourselves, it's political pressure. And if there's a different outcome, it kind of goes in the face of our wanting to treat everyone consistently.
How do we balance that? because you're right at at the end of that then the citizen often times not only are they unhappy with staff but they're unhappy with the commissioner. Um they
don't typically understand our form of government. They they think we all have magic wands and we can wave it and do whatever we want >> um in their behalf. So, how do you >> sure >> balance all of that out?
>> When I said earlier, you as elected officials have unique status. You're you're elected by your constituents and you want to be responsive. I get that and managers understand that you want to be responsive to your constituents because that's a special relationship you have with the citizens that as an appointed official we don't have. So, we
get that. Um, I will tell you and have drone ask on this as well or speak on this as well. Many times I as a as a city manager or a council member say I've heard this issue they say can you just handle it and I have my staff member or myself or my assistant or whoever the case would be the most
appropriate person to be able to address that issue and then you know I heard this issue about making sure that Luke's back so you know it's off your to-do list. So I've heard and captured that as well. But there are other times where I've had um it's interesting you say sometimes you don't like the answers you've got. I've had elected officials
ask me if I could meet with an individual and if they could be present because they would rather me be the bearer of bad news than them be the bearer of bad news. And we as managers we accept that. I mean there are times we have to be the one to say this is why and explaining why it is and and explaining that and once again I'm
helping my elected body because they don't have to be the bad guy. I'm the bad guy as the manager in that decision in the effort. But I've also had times where someone is dealing with a unique issue and they've gotten the ear of a commissioner and the commissioner said, you know, I can you meet with them and
can I be part of it? In my mind, I've done that. So, but every manager has their own perspective about that because sometimes they add context that we've talked about before that maybe I didn't understand or staff didn't understand, but that's once again our goal as a manager is to help you as an elected
body be successful and this organization be successful. And that may come in different ways and shapes and forms, but the question is it gets to a relationship between you and your your staff, in this case your manager or your attorney or your clerk depending on the issue to help you be successful within
boundaries that make sense. And so what you've just described or what you've described, Demetri say, could I be part of a meeting? I've certainly done that as a manager throughout my career at various times. It doesn't happen all the time, just like you said, but sometimes there's just one of those sticky wiki
issues that they want to be part of it. I'm okay with it because I'm going to I'm not going to say one thing to one group and something else to somebody else. And so there are times when that does take place. It does happen a lot, but I I recognize what you're saying that you're it's either a significant interest to you or we just don't feel
like whatever the discussion has gotten has gotten to the point of of a resolution with all the all the complexities and the dynamics, you know, being discussed as well. So, um I I don't want to overstep that because every manager has to make those decisions, but I will tell you that that's something that we do see subject
to an acceptable standard that that everybody can agree to how that works. But I don't want to be in front I don't want to get too far in front of a drone but I also want to talk to you David and get your reaction as well. So >> yes um just to comment on that perspective well a couple things. One you know the
response time issue up there that was written. I'm not sure I say that that's an issue because there are three of us who handle our staff to make sure that we get answers but I won't necessarily argue that point. But the reason why we don't allow city commissioners in there
in in those meetings with our staff and those issues we're trying to solve, I'll give you just our example. You have you you have talked about how you don't trust government. You want information from other people. So when
you come in that meeting, you tend to believe whoever is telling you that there's a problem what they say as the problem. You don't come in there with an open mind to say, "Okay, well, let's hear what staff has to say in their defense as to why this person has a problem." So, if you come in there with
the predetermined mind that we are the problem, that puts us in an adversarial situation where you're going to support them and I'm going to dispute what you're saying. And then you're going to be in a position of trying to enforce your position to get done what they want
done. And then that puts you as one against me as opposed to five giving direction to one. It's going to put us in a bad spot against each other. And I don't think that that's a fair position to be at. If you are meeting with someone and they have a problem and we give an answer that they don't like,
then they're more than welcome to raise that answer back up through you in order for you to get a result that's different through the five of you coming back and saying we agree with Commissioner Pro um Jerome and you need to go and do this thing differently as opposed to putting
me against you. That's not going to help our relationship. I don't think is going to help us get um answers um faster. And there's also times where people have come to you, Commissioner Petco, in this
example, where they are asking you for a decision that could be a item that you vote on later as a commissioner. And I try to take you out of those positions because that's not going to help you later when they come publicly and say, "Well, well, I talked to Commissioner
Pro and you know, he he told me X, Y, and Z, and now you have to vote on it." Then it becomes a voting item. And one of the examples is when they come to you and talk to you about um event assistance regarding something that they are putting on for the city and there's
this account and this policy where you all can vote on it and give them x number of dollars. Once they make that known as their purpose, it you should you should step out of it and hand it over to us. And that's why we do that because we don't want there to be a
conflict later. There's nothing that I am of I'm worried that we're going to say to you that we wouldn't say to anybody else. It's that's not the issue. The issue is making sure that we're not pitted against one another and that we are not talking about something that
could be a voting item later. That's why I'm >> So yeah, if I can clarify since we're talking about this uh item of citizenry, I I do want to dismiss this uh uh notion
of political pressure, if you will. Um I use my wisdom and a lot of times I resolve it uh right there, right on the phone or with an email uh response. Um, and usually I direct them right away or
a lot of times it's just common sense. I tell them what to do and they know what to do. The thing is when they want to meet in person with me with the presence uh of a city manager or assistant manager or deputy manager um is usually where there's it's not a voting issue.
It's the problem they've been having for a long time and they cannot get through it. So usually it's it's it's to solve the issue they face >> and it's related to directly to those people who are asking me those questions. Now I want to say this you
know I work for the people and if I cannot the people who elected me and people who did not elect me equally because I represent the people. So when they ask me to sit and in the presence of the city manager my
intention I use my wisdom I'm not going to go against the city manager and pressure and you know put him down and that you know I want to solve this solve the issue that's it but uh like I said if I cannot even satisfy the demand of
meeting um how they going to put my they they trust in me and uh I'm going back to this because I've been picked on it. You don't trust the government. I have not met one person who trusts the government.
I mean, do we trust the government? We do to some extent, right? But uh I want I want to help the people and they ask me to be a part of the meeting and if I I I I used to ask can I be a part of the meeting I I don't ask
anymore. But I think >> but I think it's yeah it's >> yeah I think it get it's you know I don't want to step between the relationship of you and a given constituent that you have at the time. As I said I have done this as a manager where there's times where the the council member or the mayor wanted me to
wanted to be part of that discussion. I was okay with that to the extent you know Jerome has put some boundaries on that when it starts to get into where there's a potential conflict or you know they're trying to help you avoid potential conflicts of interest real or perceived that may come into play. But
at the same token um the role of the the managers to help you as a body be effective and successful in governing this organization. And so um with those types of parameters um you make a decision whether you think it'd be something that I'd like to do. You know
I I I used to joke when I when I was in Lakeland um we had one of our mayors um went he was in the Baptist church which was one of the biggest churches there. So every sun, every Sunday when he went to church, he came back and he had his list. So he would meet and because I
couldn't deal with all the issues, I had my deputy manager meet with him. Every Monday morning was a standing meeting and he went through and saying, "Here's this constituent, this constituent, this constituent." And then my deputy kind of ran that down for him and then looped back with him to do it. Um, and in that case, there's no way he could attend all those meetings. But that was just a
given when he was at church. He knew everybody was going to come to him with whatever alils, issues, challenges, desires, thoughts, and opinions. And we just have a standing meeting on Monday morning with my deputy manager to kind of work our way through those list. And some meetings, you know, he he attended and others he didn't attend based on it.
But the the goal here is to say, we know that you're going to get those questions. You're elected officials. You're going to get those. So you're going to have your own issues. How do we best deal with that and still have a system that works internally? And so what we're trying to do is through this process to give you yet another ability
to have subject matter experts and people be involved in some of those discussions for either a constituent issue that come up or you may have as an individual commissioner that you just want to I don't understand or I want to learn more. I want to dig more into this issue from there. >> But I want to compliment the city
manager's office uh with the response time. It's amazing. Once I send the email, it gets I get response almost right away. So that that's really good. We the line or the channel of communication is really effective.
>> Okay. >> Between the uh city commissioners and the city manager and uh to resolve the the issues. >> Good. Okay. >> With with the citizenry. >> Okay. And thank you for that feedback, Commissioner Petro. But what you just
said is kind of the crux of the issue that I I struggle with. You say that you don't trust the government and no one does. How can you be how can you think that we are going to sit with a citizen who doesn't trust the government, you don't trust the government and we're going to have a productive conversation
where you're not influencing them because they're you are my supervisor. they are asking you to be there so you can tell me what to do which is what they want done and we may not always agree with that. Now, normally the process that I would say happens is if
when you have a citizen who has an issue with us, one of my first questions is who have they talked to? Like where do they get their information from or who's reaching out to them? And then normally someone from our office will sort of intercede and try to fix it. And let's say they're unsuccessful. Then if they're unsuccessful, then normally
they're going to come back and talk to you and say, "Hey, you know, now I want you to come in the meeting to meet with me and the city manager's office because they didn't give me what I wanted." The natur the ne the next natural reaction should be for you to come talk to me and us so we can tell you why we didn't do
it or the perspective of it and then we can figure out and problem solve how to get that person closer to the answer they want based on that conversation. But putting us in a meeting together against each other is gonna show disagreement and dysfunction in front of a citizen. And I don't think that's the
best place to put either one of us in my opinion. >> So let me just before because I do want to catch commissioner's comments on this as well. But but let me just take that as a as a touch point here. If the city manager has to deal with politics, I mean, they're apolitical,
but they've got to deal with politics because they've got that one foot kind of understanding what you're dealing with in the political perspective. But we're trained. I mean, we're big boys. We we've trained. This is the profession we've chose. So, we are much more adapted being able to manage that
relationship. I just want to go back and I I don't want to I use it as a touch point. when you as an elected official reach down to a lower level employee and say this is why you know I want to understand this and I'm kind of thinking this area that person doesn't have that same training and skills that's not what
they're signed up for as a line level employee so we we talked a little bit about context and understanding the issue we're we're trained this is our profession we're in that that arena levels below department heads and and down are not and that that perception
that Jerome just mentioned that he even feels as a city manager. Imagine what that feels like two or three levels down in the organization. That's what when when u was was raised earlier about I used to joke as a manager. I would never say my thoughts and opinion till I've already heard the thoughts in the room
because I'm like a skunk in air conditioner. I walk in the room has changed the dynamics immediately because the manager is in the office. >> Whether it's real or not, it is it is the dynamic that people perceive. as elected officials, they're going to perceive that because they have a vision of an elected official that may or may
not be entirely appropriate relative to the context of the issue. So, I I just raised it if your own manager feels that that pressure, imagine what that feels like two or three levels down in the organization. So, if I I really I I really want to catch David's thoughts here as well.
>> You do's point there's >> there's really a very practical approach to it. I mean, it depends on the situation. A a a citizen who has who is
struggling with a problem, whether it's with code enforcement or or permitting or whatever it be, and they are struggling. They have gone repeatedly, they cannot resolve their issues and they've talked to staff and now they've come to a commissioner for assistance.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to stick my nose in. I'm going to say, "Well, who did you talk to?" I'm going ask the same question Jerome did. Who'd you talk to? Well, I talked to this one and that one and this one and nobody's giving me the right answer. I'm getting three different answers from people. This one didn't even get back to me. Blah blah blah. Well, have you talked to
Jerome? Well, no. Oh, okay. Let's try this. If I feel I do everything I can to put that citizen with the the the people that I think are in the best position to answer and solve their problem when it's
unresolvable because >> there's conflict in policy and direction and ordinance or whatever. >> It's the city says that isn't how it's done. That isn't what the law says. We can't do that for you. And then the citizen comes back to me. At that point I have two choices. I can simply tell
them what they need to hear or tell them what they want to hear or not take their call. And that's what happens. >> The third option is that that maybe the system does need to be re rethought and then you have a conversation as a board versus a one person saying I need to do
this talk through it as an agenda. That's the That's the It really gets to if we as commissioners have done if if I've done everything I possibly can to try to make sure that citizen has gotten with the right people and it's still unresolvable, then I got to understand
why it was unresolvable. That's my obligation to go to staff to city manager or whoever and and understand why they're saying no to this guy >> and then or gal and then go back to them >> and stand up for the city and say look
you know I'm not telling you what you want to hear but I'm telling you what you need to hear. This is how it is. You cannot do this anymore. The uldc was changed. This is just how it is now. >> And and you know what do you want me to do? Lie to you? Do you want me? What do
you What do you want me to say except the truth? What they're telling you is true. That's not going to happen for you. >> Sure. >> And that's not an easy thing to do because we're really not there to do what the citizens >> individually want us to do. We're here
to represent the city and the majority of our citizens and to do the best for the most. Sometimes that means saying no. No. And I and here's why no. So, it's an awkward position. And I and I commiserate because because it happens. >> Sure.
>> I really try to dump it on staff. I use that word. >> That's what I said. We're here we're there. >> Forward phone calls directly to Jerome from somebody because like he needs to deal with it. And then I'll follow up and ask like, "Hey, whatever happened with that guy or that gal?" And he'll
answer. And if that person gets back to me, you know what often I find is is is what matters. They're not hearing what they want to hear. They figure the commissioners can change that. You see, staff has to do what the law says, what the ordinances say, what the resolutions
say, but we make policy. So, if you get me convinced that it should be different now, I can maybe convince the other four and that's actually the way the process should work. >> That's the other that's the other distinction of the process for us. But
you either you know in your example, you either agree or disagree with the way it's being done. If you agree it's the end of the discussion from your standpoint doesn't mean the citizen can't come in and make a comment a public comment and then you can have a conversation or if at the end of the day saying listen I just don't think this makes sense I want to raise this as an
item and then you hash it through and staff is involved in discussion and you either change policy or you leave it the way it is but you're right you can't make that change unilaterally and that's part of that interference concept I got I I really I really want to capture so I thought talked that this approach does
this make sense this is only one part of a strategy. Like, dislike, reactions, one way or the other. I, you know, >> I don't have a reaction. >> You don't have a reaction. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. So, >> are you
um I think we're still Yeah, I was talking on this on this particular area. Yes. Oneonone. So, the concept here is that you're still going to have you got your two one on's, >> right? during if you have an item that you know if you've got a department head that's there to brief something on a on
an upcoming agenda item which is currently being done here anyways >> right >> um what I'm hearing is from time to time Barbara has mentioned hey I've got an item about parks and wreck and your parks and w directors there I'm hearing that's that's that's the way you've operated but what I'm also putting out here is saying if there's a topic that
may not be on a current agenda and you want to discuss it and you want to have further context that's the opportunity to tell the manager Hey, I want to have a briefing on X, Y, or Z. And then he can figure out who needs to be involved in that meeting and try to schedule that for a subsequent meeting for a
one-on-one. >> Great. Okay. >> You can go first. >> Okay. >> Um I just want to elaborate a little bit. I don't know why Commissioner Dval is suspiciously quiet, but this is a good time for a discussion. Absolutely.
>> Um so I want to uh elaborate on the followup uh to the commissioners. So when I have a citizen or citizen that reaches out to me, I want to know what's going on as far as the result or the resolution if you will.
>> Um there was one situation that you know I referred them to to to the city manager's office. Um then few days later the citizens uh or citizen calls me uh leaves me a voicemail. Um
and I don't know what to tell him because I don't know the process of what was told to him. I I I'm a I was kept out of the loop. There was one situation when uh there was a lady that came up to to my office and we sat down and there was a issue of a shed building to put on
our property and she wanted to do in front of the property. Um I had couple of the same exact scenarios asking me the same question. If I would be kept in the loop uh or the the followup, I would know I would be better equipped to
answer the the rest of the people that ask me the same question. Uh but it would be the the the phone call that left me a message. Uh it's like I'm being kept in the dark. I don't know the
the the result of what was communicated to him. Was it resolved? I don't know why he's calling me to call me to hold asking me to call him back. Um I don't have any like meat to present him or what do I tell him? Call call the city
manager again. So the followup is really important and I started to see those um more uh with the buyer um >> email now I I'm equipped I know what what was the answer related to that person right because if I don't know the
the result of it >> I would have to go physically or email or call him hey what was with that I mean it's not as effective as it could be all it had to be done is my name would be included in the email this is this is the result this is this this is
this and it that's so easy so I want to kind of stress out on follow-ups that it should be incorporated with the whatever the citizens ask us we should be at least included in the response or what was related to them or
>> okay >> you know if it was the answer no whatever whatever the the answer was >> okay >> and certainly we can do better with making sure that you get the answer for what happens but all of of them are not sort of written responses. It depends on the issue that the person has if they're
responded to verbally through myself, the department head or one of their staff. So, it could it just varies on what that answer could be, but we'll try to get you a more condensed answer so that you have something going forward with the people who are asking it. But it's not always so easy. But again,
admittedly, we don't want to put you in a position where you're not having the answer for something that's a repeated question to you. That's certainly not our goal. And in the example of you calling the person calling you back, it depends on what they're calling you back to say. They might have called you back to say, "Hey, I talked to someone. I
didn't like the answer. I want to I want to talk some more." Or, "Hey, can you help me out? This is the answer. How do I find a pathway to get to what I'm trying to accomplish?" I mean, there there's not a one-sizefits-all there, but your point is that you would like to be kept better in the loop to be told
what the result of the question was that you directed. And I to tell you we can do that. We can we can we can do that better to make sure that you don't have that same feeling. >> And I agree with that by the way. >> Yeah. And that's that's totally that's not a way that we want you to feel at all. So however we need to do it and
some of those conversations again that we have in examples with your colleagues. We bring those up during the one-on- ones or the dinner briefing. They say, "Well, what happened?" Or, "Why is this person still calling me after I told you to talk to them?" And some of your colleagues don't say it so
nicely, you know, to put some flavor word in there, but we try to make sure that we are getting back to everyone so that they are felt responded back to and sometimes we drop the ball on that and sometimes we have to own and acknowledge that and that's fine. So, I certainly hear what you're saying. Uh, and I know
you're trying to get us to lunch, Doug, but let me just say this one thing on this one-on-one meetings thing. In order for that to work, there has to be unanimous participation by all the commissioners in their one-on ones. >> Mr. Dubal canceled his one-on- ones on October 29th and didn't attend any of
them for the rest of the year. That was about seven meetings in that series. The next series starts this week, so I don't know if he plans on attending those or not because the other ones were cancelled without any conversation or notice. They were just cancelled and he just didn't show up. There cannot be any
email or different strategy created if the current process is not going to be honored by avoidance. That's not acceptable. Okay. As I said, it's a key function. The last
line is really to to avail yourself of that information. That's the opportunity under your structure to have that conversation, to have those discussions. And let me be candid. I mean, I I've had council members in my 35 years in city management like me. Some didn't like me.
I like some of them. I like some of them less than others. It happens. uh the nature of the game. We don't always agree. Um but at the same token, um we're we're here. I mean, you're structured. You're you're five of you. There's one there's three charter officers. That's the process. Unless
something changes, we got to make that work. Um what I have told and and I've lost count. A lot of managers know exactly how many elected officials they work with over their career. lost count over the time. But the bottom line is what I've I've said is listen, even if I
don't necessarily agree or take the same position that a given elected official may have, I've said listen, you're going to be in office for four years, 6 years, 8 years, whatever, if there's term limits, whatever that is. You have two options to path. You can be a grenade
thrower and just try to blow up everything. And if that's the case, eventually that rarely works for at the end of that 2 4 6 8 10 12 years, you may not have anything that you've done other than create noise. But if that's what it is, everybody knows what it is. That's fine. What I've tried to say is if you really want to get something
accomplished, help me understand what you want to do and I can see what I as a manager can do to work with your colleagues in the parameter of government we've got to see if we can make those changes. And so at the end of the day, you all I've said this before, you have a very short window of time
where you're elected official. What's the legacy you want to leave? And if the legacy is I want to do something to do X, Y, or Z, you may have been elected to bring a change about X or Y or whatever that topic may be. In order to do that, you have to work collectively with you as a body and also the staff. And that
gets back to the conversation. The structure of government you have is it flows through your charter officers. And that either helps you accomplish those goals or retards the ability to accomplish those goals. So, okay.
>> Mhm. All right. Number two, this is something that I as Lyn and I Lyn, before I move on, anything you want to comment on this? I know you've been quiet in the background. >> Okay. Okay. I'll take as a no. All right. Okay. All right. So here's
another one I've heard in discussions saying, "Hey, if I'm a citizen, I can email a department and saying I'm stuck on this issue. Why can't we do X, Y, or Z?" And many organizations that I work with and other cities that I've worked for and and worked with have had a
process to say, okay, um, as an elected official, you you just I say, you can change the dynamics of being an elected official just by virtue of your title. Whether you desire to do that or not, it is what it is. So, one of the things that we often see work in other cities
under council manager forms is as an elected official, you can email a department head, say, "I got a problem or I got an issue or I got a concern." And maybe this is a oneoff. Maybe it's something is much more detailed that becomes something for a one-on-one conversation or workshop. But in some cases, they're basically an opportunity
to say, "I'm stuck on this issue. Um, I've heard about it. Can you can you bring me back up to speed on the issue?" So I want to say that that outreach is not to replace the relationship you have with your charter officers. It basically is another avenue for you to get more
information. And the way in which most of these take place is that they're more inquiry of why are we doing it this way? Not necessarily this is why I want to do it differently. So it's this fine line. I know Titan talked a little bit about direction versus inquiry. It's much more
of an inquiry. help me understand why we do this or what we do or or or what the parameters are from that area. Um that is different than ultimately making a policy recommendation that the manager or your attorney or your clerk depending on the topic that may come forward is going to make to you as a public body
because once again at every level you go down your context changes based on the level of understanding and the awareness of the other issues that may or may not be on their radar screen that your manager your attorney or your clerk have to be involved with as well. So the way in which this is traditionally done in
council manager forms even with systems like you have in place for non-interference is that the manager gets CCD on those emails because once again if most of my department heads and I suspect with Jeromes as well they're going to tell me if I've gotten an inquiry from a you know I can't trust my department heads I got a bigger problem
but bottom line they're going to let you know hey I've heard this but if I don't catch up with them and all of a sudden there's an emerging issue taking place and it's not just one council members it's two council members or two other council members who are talking about an item As a manager, I need to be aware of that because that may be something that
I need to be tuned in because there's something going on in other department that has an impact on what's happening here and that department head may not know that. So that's the reason you CC the manager to keep that person in the loop of what's taking place. And then at the end of the day, um, and I think I've
heard this is what's happening here. Well, there's a response to whatever that would be. Normally, what most cities under this former government do is they will copy the entirety of the commission because we make the assumption even though it's a one-off with one commissioner, that same
question may very well come up with another commissioner and when you're up here having a conversation in the DAS and somebody says, well, I got this response in email and the other four go out, what are you talking about? I don't have that information. You need to have you need to be equipped with that same sort of information to be involved with. So I know in the past my understanding
is you've not done this but the bottom line is this is a way many council manager former governments operate. It gives you a little more access but at the department head level. Now department head may have to tap some people below them to understand what's going on from that point but they're going to be a little closer to the
topic. The manager gets CC. They're aware of it and everybody gets the responses because you need it. It may be something that you deal with on the day at a later point and you want to make sure all five of you have that same access to that information and nobody's got kind of an unfair advantage with knowing something a detail that somebody
else might not know. >> Yes. >> But to me, this is just semantics. Why can't you just send the email to the city manager and CC the department heads? This way they get together and you're still going. This way the department heads knows the information
is wanted, requested. They get together, they get that information, it goes back through the email chain. To me, it's just pretty much the same thing. Rather than going direct, you're following the charter by going through the city manager, CC, and the department head.
>> I I get that. I understand what you're saying. Um, I'm trying to help find a pathway to get to different thoughts and opinions and access. I I will tell you, it's it's a it's something if I get an email as a city manager, it comes to me. I'm dealing with it generally right at hand. If it's going to my department
head, I I may be aware of it, but I'm not it's not capturing my attention unless I hear two or three other items that are the same items of concern. So, it gives it keeps the manager in the loop, but doesn't put the onus immediately. I'm not saying it never does because ultimately the manager is responsible for the entirety of the organization, but having it go to
department head, it goes to them first for response. And if it's a if it's a sensitive issue, they're certainly going to talk through it and get a sense of the error. But it's managers have a gazillion decisions and issues they deal with every day. Being CCed is one thing. Being the direct point is another. That's the point that I
>> and I understand that the department head may want to respond with all of that information and CC the city manager coming back to you or all commissioners whichever way they want to do but make sure that they put on their email. Do not reply to all
comply with the open meetings act. And so I mean to me it's just >> okay >> my my approach here is to try to give you another avenue for access. I've heard this concern about having, you know, different voices. This is another way in which council manager forms of
government operate to provide that type of material. And I also heard specifically, hey, if a citizen can do this, why can't I do it? I'm saying there's a way to do this, but because you're an elected official, you have to have some boundaries around it versus what a citizen can do. >> And just one more thing, and then I'll
let you go. Cuz if it goes through the city manager's office, you have three officers there that can deal with it. City manager, deputy, and an assistant. If it goes directly to the department head, what if A, they're not in, B, they
could be on vacation, it could create problems down the line when commissioner goes to the city manager and said, "Hey, this director of so and so department never gets back to me in a timely manner. What's going on here?" Now, now you've just created more confusion and
conflict. So, I I just I'd rather still have it go through the city manager or the city manager's office. That's just my opinion. >> And I'm I'm not saying this has to be an either or. I'm just giving it as another option. Sure. >> And obviously, if the department head isn't being responsive, the manager needs to know that >> because you would expect that out of
your department heads, especially with elected officials in terms of their inquiries and understanding because they know the importance that you need to have that information in a timely basis. Plus, you need it for for uh feedback, for discussion on on policy issues that may come up as well. So, I'm not saying you have to do an either or. My goal was
to open the boundaries a little bit that gives you additional access to be involved in some of those outreach because I heard that as a theme and I would tell you that this is a process many council manager forms government operate under. Every manager has their own set of parameters. Um but it's
something that we have seen you know in person myself andor with other organizations I work with under similar boundaries charters and inter interference language similar to what you've got here. >> The only concern I would have with that and I kind of lean the mayor's way on
this only because not because it's easy to get out of control. Department heads have jobs to do >> and it would not be unreasonable to think that a commissioner would continue to
bombard that particular department head with repeated questions back and forth to the point where that department head is spending an exorbitant amount of time trying to go back and forth and explain. And it's happened. There's been commissioners who have done it to the
detriment of the city and it just ain't a good idea in my book. I see the city manager as the guy responsible and I'm holding him responsible. If I got a problem or question that I want
answered, >> he's the guy I'm going to hold responsible. I only got three people that report to me or us. >> And he's the guy on the hook, not his department head. His department head answers to him. If I got something I
need to know or information I need, I want him to be responsible for giving it to me cuz when he doesn't give it to me or if he doesn't give it to me in a timely fashion, I can express my feelings with regard to it. How do I do that with a department head? So if I'm going back and forth, it it's just it
seems like such a an upheaval. The one that's like Pete says, it's just a semantical thing. You know, send it to the city manager. Now, city manager's not dealing with it. That's a whole another animal. >> Sure. >> Then I come to my fellow commissioners
and say, you know, I'm having a hard time here. Is it just me? Are you guys having this problem or is he he, you know, unfairly treating me? And and to me, that's how this government was set up. I appreciate the need to try to flex it a little, but you know, too many
times like decisions are made because there's pressure on something and we make decisions that invariably turn out to be horrible decisions down the road cuz we opened the door to something. This would open the door to a pain in the neck because there have been commissioners who are just insatiable.
They just can't leave something alone. They drive staff crazy. And it hasn't been in that far a recent past. I think we could all remember who might have been the person who did that to the point of, you know, driving everybody out of their minds. And we don't need
that. I I >> if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It is our obligation to have staff do what we want them to do to be responsive to us. The structure is there to do that. We need to be
assertive. We need to be engaged. We need to come to work every day. We need to get at it. And if we're not getting what we need to make the best decisions for the citizens in our city, then we got to yell louder. And if we're not being heard by staff, we got to talk to
our fellow commissioners. And then the five of us can beat on someone's head. To me, that's >> So, let me let me give you just you. >> Let me give some context. For example, wait a minute. Well, you know, there are
times where sometimes our counselor heard that a stoplight is out or stop sign is down or got knocked over by a car or something like that. I said, "For God's sake, you don't have to call me as a manager. Just let the department know." That's the type of thing I'm talking about here. And and but you also
may say, "Hey, on that, you know, how often you replace our street signs or something to give you there may be some context there." So, I'm just saying that I know I've heard not just here, but I've heard in other communities where they say, "Listen, as an elected official, I don't even have the same rights or rules that a citizen have." I'm trying to say that many places that
operate under this form allow that type of communication because it's it's quick, it's efficient, it goes forward. I'm not disputing what you said. At the end of the day, if a department head is getting bombarded, at some point the manager steps in say, "Listen, this is something we got to workshop or we had to have a conversation because this is
going to be an issue." To me, it's not a right to, you know, I have a right. The citizen has a right to ask any member of the city government what they want, but I can't do that. My job is to help solve their problems. I agree >> in any way I can. I have three charter
officers that report to us, >> this board, >> and they need to be responsive to us, and we're responsive to the citizens. if if if they're not getting their problems solved, that's who we go to. I it's it's
chaos to think that five people can start talking to anybody and everybody. It makes no organization anywhere I've ever been affiliated. Whether it's the service, whether it's corporate, whether it's anywhere, there's a a chain of command. There's a structure to it.
Follow the structure. If the person in charge of running the show is doing a lousy job, then we get rid of them or her. But if they're doing their job and we're doing our job by demanding that high level of performance and response, I don't see what the problem is here.
>> Understand? >> You know, I I just don't >> and and let me be clear. I'm not saying this process gets you all the way to the land level position. This is basically if extension right now you have the ability to go to Jerome or the the assistant managers. I'm just saying many organizations will extend that down to
the department head levels. And once again, I'm not requiring it. I'm not imposing it. I'm saying this is an opportunity that if desired, you could do it. Now, all these issues have to be monitored and evaluated. Does it work or not work? Most of the time, you can figure this stuff along the line, but I was hearing about concerns of access to
information. I'm not saying you have to do this. If you still want to use Jerome or the assistance, that's totally acceptable. But if you've got a question about something that a department head can probably respond to, as long as the the manager CC and everybody gets the same information, that's something that we see happen a lot in this business.
And it doesn't it doesn't eliminate your responsibility of overseeing your three charter rosters is what I'm trying to say. you still have the the goal because quite frankly, as I said, I can tell you as a manager, you got a gazillion things you're dealing with and your staff has a gazillion things you're dealing with and
and your your assistants and the manager, they're they're overseeing their operations, but at the same token, you know, spreading that around a little bit sometimes helps. I'm not saying it can't be a problem. If it is, we'd have to deal with as a problem go forward. But in many cases, that's the most efficient way to respond to a question or an issue because the manager or the
department isn't going to know exactly every single issue that may crop up. It's just the nature. There's only so much you can you can work forward with. Okay, let's talk a little bit about workshops. Um, I understand you like other organizations use workshops. Um,
they may be about an issue. Maybe you're considering a change in policy. Maybe you're looking at an ordinance. Maybe you're shifting programs. It may be about a project. Whatever the topic may be, but it's not kind of right for prime time for basis action. And so what many
organizations do is hold these workshops. And the workshops is an opportunity for you to understand and ask questions. And the workshops are typically designed for you as a commission. They're done in public because of all five of you there subject to public meetings act. It has to be
done in public. Many workshops do not take comments from citizens because it's your time to learn and your turn to ask questions and understand an issue that's likely to come back before you for some policy, some program. Maybe it's a component of your budget. It may be a
project, whatever that whatever the topic may be. And the goal here is for you to have a dialogue so that you hear each other and you also hear from your department heads and your staff and your subject matter experts. Let me give you an example. We ran in Lakeland, we ran electric generation and distribution
utility. And so we would have meetings on workshops on our fuel rates. You know this from your your background as well. We had we had a mixture of coal and natural gas and and oil and all that and all those related to fuel rates and how we're going to ultimately charge on what that was. And there were times because
we were moving into a fuel hedging program where we're basically putting puts and holds, synthetic holds and processes to control our cost and the highs and lows of that. That's hard to do in a commission meeting discussion. So we would have workshops. Now, even though I understood what that looked
like, we would have our fuels manager and our our system analysts and our financial people having those conversations in a conversation with a with the board so that they had an understanding of what this stuff looked like. And that's an opportunity for you
to ask these questions of people beyond just the manager. As I said, as a manager, I knew conceptually what was going on, but I'm not an economist. I'm not a fuel guy. I need to know from those. And there's two values here. Number one, you're going to get a greater understanding of the issues as
you go through this conversation. Number two, you're hearing different voices that come into the discussion from people that do this 24/7 or full-time because the manager doesn't do this, the department doesn't do it full-time. There there levels of expertise that are involved. You all done your own professions. You know your business.
This is their business. And this is an opportunity for you to understand what that looks like. Now, Lynn talked earlier about peer cities. What many times during your your workshops when you do these it gives you an opportunity to say okay well how does Palm Coast which is a comparable size development
GDC type community how do they dealt with this issue and so this is an opportunity to say but I said before it's not revolutionary it's typically evolutionary but in the same token it gives you a learning opportunity of what did they try that maybe didn't work out that you're about to do the same thing
and now you may still take that course of action you may not but these workshops are really to discuss topics of interest before it's ready for action or it's maybe of a community concern. I've even had workshops on public restrooms. That was an interesting
session, let me tell you. Um and and didn't involve ultimately a council policy. It's just there's a problem about a restroom along one of our major lakes that everybody wanted and we need to have a conversation about, you know, what that looked and felt like. So, I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean it only results in the
commission day action. Sometimes it's about a challenge, an issue, a controversy you got to work your way through. But it is your time to learn and understand where it's at. And it's your opportunity to hear from subject matter experts outside of your charter officers and that normally takes place.
That dialogue occurs there as well. So one of the things that we've talked about I I understand you've used workshops on a on a basis as you're dealing with a policy or an ordinance or something going forward, but there may be other topics like I mentioned a restroom issue. um it it may not be something that's going to land, but it's
something you're hearing about in the background. And if enough of you believe that that's a reason that we ought to do that, then you have that workshop and you invite the appropriate people to be part of that. Because what what I was hearing is this conception of understanding different voices. And Phil, you've even mentioned this as
well, kind of the 360 analysis of what's going on. and and most of the time staff has done that homework, but sometimes that doesn't come through an understanding of have you thought about this or why this versus that and this dialogue to go back and forth to hear from different voices. Now, I'm going to
say even as a city manager, you know, I would chime in on those discussions, but there's times where I I want my department head or I want my fuels manager to talk that issue because they know that better than I do. And once again, my job is to make sure that you as elected officials are armed with the right information to understand that.
So, I know you've done workshops. What I'm suggesting is that there may be topics that most of the time staff drives workshops. It's a topic where uh for an example we did one on form-based codes. We must have spent two years doing form-based codes discussions and we looked all over the country at what
that looked like and we needed to have touch points with our elected bodies to say here's kind of what we're seeing. This is kind of where we're going. This is why we want to do it. Does this make sense? And based on the conversation we continue down that path or we need a direction to say no, I don't like that. Let's move in a different path. and that
that dialogue was there to understand it. But it's that point of understanding different thoughts and impressions and having your staff go forward and explain things to you that may be more granular than what you might get out of your charter officers. Make sense?
>> Regular. >> Okay. Just regular. And I I don't don't want to speak for the rest of you guys, but I mean, I'm on over the past three and a half years, I've I've made numerous recommendations during one-on- ones or thinking, Jesus, you know, this
should be in a this should be a workshop item or or can we have a work, you know, we probably need another workshop item on this. What do you think? Whatever. And have those dialogues. And I mean, never, you know, I've never had a response back. Sorry, we already dealt with that. Like, go away. No, it's been
received well. I mean, we've had workshop items on stuff that weren't even I mean that were conceptual >> topics topics of interest. >> I mean, I think they work great. >> Okay. So the goal here is to say to your point if there's many times they're working on something that's heading
towards a day action but they may not be and and the opportunity is as elected officials you could ask those question say I'd like to hold a workshop on this and you talk through it if there's desire to go proceed with it get scheduled makes sense have it okay
action yes no okay okay all Early on, Lynn spoke earlier about administrative policy versus commission policy where the administration is responsible for enforcing certain
actions, the commission is responsible enforcing other actions. as it relates to you have as I've looked through the issues and had the conversations and seen what was happening here in Northport, you actually have a policy a city commission policy on rules and order and rules of decorum for your
boards which incorporates yourself as you go forward there. You have a certain section on workshops about um how you use and what you determine as consensus consensus and this under your policy but this is your policy. You get to do this.
So this is under your purview in the process. The way your policy reads now is that consensus is unanimous of the commissioner's present except when you're in budget discussions. So if you disagree or have a different thought or an opinion about that right now all five of you have to be on the same page. That
sometimes happens may not happen. I don't know what that looks and feels like but that's this is in your parameters to control. This is the commission policy specifically. before you go past that. I mean, we we have consensuses all the time that aren't
unanimous. And so, what does that mean anyway? Because like it it it is an emotion and and it isn't voted on. It's a consensus. It's given staff a feel for where the commissioner's heads are at. So, who cares whether it's unanimous or
whether it's 4 to one or 3:2 or whatever it might be? It's giving them a flavor for how we feel. If it's if there's any three to two issues, that's that's something staff better take serious consideration on. If it's 4 to one or 5 to one, I mean, we had plenty of four to
one unanimous votes last year. I mean, >> how you get four to one? How about 5-0? >> No, we had four to one unanimous. >> Four to one unanimous. >> Are you hungry, Phil? Are you ready for you? Not yours. Absolutely.
>> Two years. How many years? Eight years. >> 41 is not unanimous. >> Phil, you you and was over the last eight years. >> I guess you're just not on the same page. I'm sorry. Phil, the reason I raised this is that I I I agree with you. I I thought I found this to be
unique that consensus was unanimous. And I just wanted to point this out. This is your policy, not the administration's policy. So, your predecessors had adopted this policy. Whether you were actually falling or not, it's another story. But the bottom line, I did find that to be unique that consensus was five was was 50 versus, you know,
something else. You may that may be a policy you might want to discuss going forward. So, uh, let me talk the next piece of this. So, when you as you're in these workshops, this is part of the same policy the commission has adopted that that is consistent with all the other language you've got. You've got if
you're inquiring about a matter directed to city staff, it goes first to your charter officers, in this case, the manager. if it's a topic of a general administration and then the manager or the staff member can designate who else is there. I will discuss generally and I think what I've heard you say and what I've typically seen workshops have a lot
of eb and flow with a variety of people involved but at the end of the day if the manager says hey I understand that but here's what we want to do or here's why we're recommending this that's still the manager's call or the city attorney's call or the or the uh um the other pieces there and then let me you know obviously talk about respecting
staff and handling that and and recognize I I've heard a discussion about hey you got to break in a workshop and all of a sudden people kind of scatter to get a cup of coffee or go to the bathroom, whatever. This is not to say that you can't have a conversation with something you just heard or or had. I mean, we're human here. This is going
to happen. We just have to be sensitive about how that interaction occurs that is consistent with your charter and consistent with your policies, but it doesn't mean you can't have a conversation with that person or I don't quite understand what that looked like. Can you help me understand that a little differently along the line? So, this is
not a hard and fast line. Got to get through I want to go through one more section but do you you have a point on this that you'd like to discuss. No. >> Okay. Gotcha. No, I'm sensitive. I know I got a plane I got to catch too. I'm sensitive to that, too. Okay. So, leading into this next piece then um
this conversation that that both Lyn and I watched um over a variety of your meetings about, you know, what does this look and feel like? How do I interact consistent with policy and direction with staff members and and what does that feel like where I'm not violating
but I still have access to information. So, as Lynn mentioned during the forms of government section, non-interference clauses are fairly typically in every charter you see. They're going to read a little differently based on the size and the context and the structure of the
government, but they're all out there even under strong mayor forms and things of that nature. So, let me give you an example of of what that looks like in practice. Many times as newly elected officials, you're learning and you're drinking from the fire hose. There's a lot of things, you know, I'm sure some
of your colleagues have been on the board for a couple years or still don't know fully everything that you do or how you do those things. So things that happen that are typically consistent within a non-interference uh police ride alongs, code enforcement, work days, you're trying to understand what this
place is all about. And the way you do that is interacting with employees in manners to so have a better understanding. So when you're talking to a citizen about this is why we do this, you've seen that you've had an understanding of what that looks like. Um certainly most of the time I I assume
that as you as you come on board most organizations do formal orientations for elected officials when you go to departments you see operations you see kind of the services you get to see you know whatever that looks and feels like I know when we were buying automatic side loaders we had commissioners riding some of our trucks to get a feel for
what that looked and felt like as well. I can tell you as a manager I didn't sit in the back of the police car. I didn't sit in the back of the trash truck. That was an opportunity for you as an elected official to learn about what we do. But once again, you've got context there. You're learning about the operation. You
want to have an understanding. You may have an operational question about, you know, how does this work or not work or something along that line. Um, you're going to also be invited, I can tell you regularly, to department lunches. We just came through the holiday season. I assume departments have Christmas parties and many times elected officials
are invited there as well. I mean, you're not distanced. When I say I sometimes felt that the the get wrapped around the the wheel, the wire got wrapped around the axle. The goal here is that you still have to understand what you do as a city and the people that are providing those services are
part of ultimately your employees as an organization and the better policy maker you become by understanding those items. So that may be in the form of of lunches and events, recognition, employee service awards, what tours, whatever
that looks like. Maybe there's a special thing taking place in a given department that really is fair game, but that's an entirely different structure of why are we doing this and I disagree with that. Okay. So, it doesn't mean you're it's a hands-off policy. It means you're
supposed to be involved to understand the operations of the government and the people that perform those services. At the end of the day, you may learn something and maybe you see something that you've got a question on. At that point, then it becomes a factor either back to the your charter officers or to
the department head depending on how that email process may go as we've discussed earlier. So, you might see things that you that trigger a question, but once again, I'm trying to get back to the context of the employee that you may be inquiring on may not be equipped to fully understand the context in which
you're asking the question. may perfectly sense to you, but the employee may be responding to it in entirely different context to them because they're dealing with what do I deal with from 8:00 to 5:00 on Monday through Friday and you're dealing with it as it relates to 30 other things that might be happening in the city or concerns that
you've heard of that may not be there from the individual uh employee hearing as well. So, I I just wanted I thought it was important to have the conversation that I don't want you to feel like you can't have any discussion whatsoever or you're violation of the charter. These things happen in
recognized council manager forms of government on a regular basis. You just have to understand the context in which those conversations occur. Okay. Um let me stop there for a second. Reaction. Yes, Dave.
>> I have a question for three of my fellow commissioners. you were there so I'm not asking you this question but regarding this policy uh 2021
city commission policy 2021-03 uh that says all our resolutions will be or or will be uh unanimous
in our consensus yesterday. Did we not pass one that was not unanimous? Didn't we have have a a 3 to one yesterday regarding >> Well, consensuses, correct me if I'm wrong, are not binding. It's it's not a
vote. >> Okay. So it's not covered by >> and and just just on my opinion about yesterday, this is how I look at it. We were absent one commissioner due to
traveling and and that's why he's not being asked and I understand that. But we did take a vote and it came out or a consensus 3 to one. Okay. So as staff when what we're looking at it becomes an agenda item and we'll come back to where
we can vote on it with all of the commissioners present hopefully down the road and that would be the actual action vote. Correct. >> Consensus is actually binding. Consensus is usually just taken when you don't think there's going to be a lot of discussion and usually it's used more
for administrative purposes. But if it is a consensus and it does pass unanimously because workshops our policy requires that it's unanimous during workshops. So that 3:1 was not a consensus was requested. A consensus was not made
because it didn't pass unanimously during a workshop per our policy. But we use those during the workshops like was said earlier to kind of give staff the >> the input indication of where it's going to go so they can bring it back at a
regular meeting to get a vote on it. But it it is binding. >> Thank you for that. So if we have a true consensus a five to zero that is binding. >> Yes. And you will see in the minutes it will be bold. It will say there was a consensus to blah blah blah blah blah. Now, when we have a commissioner
missing, if yesterday were a five to zero, >> excuse me, four to zero, that would or would not be >> because it's of the the commissioners that are present. There was still a quorum. >> Okay, good. >> So, it'll come back in a meeting for a
vote. It's not written in stone that that we're going forward on that from yesterday. So to to illustrate that if if in a consensus I voted yes >> and then the item comes up for a vote I can still vote no.
>> Yes. Absolutely. And the difference is so for the workshop since you can't take action those consensuses are just providing direction for staff to bring back something in the future to a meeting to be approved anyway. But you'll take consensus during a regular commission meeting >> also. We've done that before and those
>> would have to be unanimous as well. >> And those could be action items. You could do consensus on an action item. We typically don't, but they can be. >> Okay. >> What was I say? I I I'm not trying to create a challenge, but I understand where you're coming from. I've never seen consensus have to be unanimous other than in this policy. So, I just
throw that out there as a as a topic. I kn I knew you were coming from this, David. Do does staff now have direction to bring that forward based on the fact that we were not unanimous.
So it wasn't binding I think was the word. >> You did not give them binding direction but they can come back at a regular meeting with an item and it be voted on to either get passed or get voted down. Mhm. >> This this would be a policy I would
recommend you look after. >> It certainly gives staff a perspective on where the commissioner's heads are at >> at that time. >> That policy should be changed to say it's not unanimous. I >> consensus of those president or something like that.
>> What difference does it's >> doesn't mean they can't go start building. All I'm saying is all I'm saying is is >> we have this policy that says we'll do it one way and we did it another way yesterday. You know, we didn't go along
with the policy. Um and until Doug brought it up, um I don't think any of us were conscious of it. >> From a practical reality, even consensuses that are not unanimous send a message. >> Absolutely. And since
all that we do typically is evolutionary, when we're in the process of working an issue and staff is looking for consensus in a workshop, even if it's a 3 to2 or a 4:1, um, you know, you might have a
commissioner who just votes no all the time because that's their nature and that's happened. And so that's why I made the joke for those who didn't realize it. But but the the practical reality is it sends a message to staff that staff gets and then as they bring
back information it helps us that could be changed. It it's like a no- ring. Who cares? >> Majority >> I'm kind of like who cares? We do it the way we do it. I think staff gets the message even though it's not actionable. What's actionable? I mean
>> I'm I'm 100% agree. I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to What I'm trying to draw on the distinction is this is your this is the five of your policy, not the administrative policy. If you don't like your policy, change your policy. This is in your purview. Correct. And your point is exactly it. If I'm if I've got
unanimous decision, I know council's aligned with where staff's at. If I got a 3-2 vote, we're going to have to figure this out a little bit better and work through those issues. The point I'm trying to draw here, and anyone get hung up on this, there are policies you enforce and you set and there are policies the administration does. This
is under your policy. This is your program. >> If I may just provide clar commissioner m um duval yesterday there was a consensus. There was one consensus but the other one was a consensus was requested to move forward with the one time fiscal year 2027. So it was not a
consensus that was made. So we did follow the policy yesterday. >> So now you are totally confused. >> I am. >> Yes I am. This one >> I am too. If it's any console,
>> this one you guys can solve. The five of you can solve this. I I don't want you to get tripped over it. My point is this is your policy, not the staff's policy. Okay? So, if you don't like this policy, this is one you can change by by your vote of where you're adopting this
policy. Okay? So, um Okay. And this the other piece was this on there. So, let me we talked about casual interactions. So, let me just talk through that. I mean, I mean, I I heard a lot of conversations about this. I I want to try to make sure there's a understanding of what this looks and feels like because this I think gets the heart of
some of the questions that I saw coming up and Lyn and I watching the meeting. So is what I mean are you does this make sense to you? Does not make sense to you? Are there boundaries that you're still unclear of? What does that look like? So I just want to open that up to get because you're going to have this.
We're people. We're going to bump into people. We're going to bump into in the hallway. We're going to see them at the Publix or whatever the case would be. I just want to get a make sure that you feel comfortable that there is an ability to have these conversations within acceptable boundaries. Okay. So,
reactions. >> I don't have enough energy to react. >> Okay. I have one other piece I want to do before you do a quick break for lunch. That makes sense then. So, >> what time is your flight? >> Um, I have to I have to be in Tampa at 4 o'clock. So, at the airport at 4
o'clock. So, all right. Um, this is something I've talked with Jerome. I already know where I think Phil's going to go with this. So, I'm going to give you the the benefit of the doubt based on your earlier comments there. Um, but there's something that that might be something that in the future you might
want to consider. And and I'm saying maybe you want you test ride what I've suggested ahead of times before you go there along the line. But there are other organizations that sometimes will say, "Listen, I got a quick question to department head. Can I make that phone call?" your policy right now really doesn't give you that that parameter.
So, this is something that would require a change, but there are some organizations where those conversations can occur. They typically are done during normal business hours and not done during 2:00 or 3:00 or something of that nature. If there's an emergency, you're going to go to your manager, your charter officer, you should go further.
Um, and what these often will be, and this gets back to the point of saying, "Hey, I'm an elected official. I can't even do what a citizen can do. I see something. I don't want to bother the manager or the staff on that or the the assistant managers. There's a stop sign that got knocked over. I'm just letting you know that. So, those are those are certainly fair game that we see going
forward. Um, sometimes you see something that you had a question about and you wanted to get a handle on. I just I had to drive by and I saw something happening at this intersection with our public works crew or traffic crew or something like that. Sometimes it's a question like that. What's going on? what's the nature of that would be it's
really just to better understand something or you had a citizen reach out to you that says I saw something happen you know what's happening there what the circumstance would be and once again that may be a one-off going there it is not intended to replace the discussions about department head briefings at your
one-on- ones or workshops or anything of that nature is just those one-offs things happen in the city and you want to be able to get a quick answer a quick response things like that >> I mean it's happened to me over the last three and a half years. Jerome will attest to it. There's been a number of times where I've done exactly that. And
I've been, you know, not admonished for it, but it's been noted. And I've sort of filed that under the um ask for forgiveness, not permission, >> step over the line. Yeah. >> I mean, it happens sometimes like there's an accident and there's a police
vehicle involved and you know, who am I going to call? If if there's somebody's number, I can call and say, "Hey, is that person a right?" Technically, not a good thing to do, but at the same time, >> it's sort of, >> you know, it's sort of harmless,
>> you know. So, I mean, it happens. >> It happens. >> The thought being that this is just put it out there as a possibility. Let's see if you walk before you run down that line. Uh, I'm sensitive to the point that you just raised and you know whether that's an email at least initially and if things work well and
the process works and you're feeling like the process is working well, this is something that potentially could move forward. Once again, it's the department head level, not below the department head level. And again, I I would just add to that if a commissioner is not using the established
methods, using their one-on- ons, using their agenda briefings, using the workshops. I'm not inclined to support direct contact. >> It's not it's not intended to replace those. Absolutely. That that the other methods are the anticipated
forms of action to engage in that level. Well, and the one thing too about your first bullet point up there, report a citizen complaint or concern. If it's coming from the commissioner rather than the citizen, that seems like direction. >> Yeah. Um, so in many cases,
>> rather have that go through the city manager down to the department head. I mean, you're opening up doors that may not need to be opened. And and >> this is a future potentially, >> right? And you know, a personal observation regarding city services
could be construed as direction. Well, this is my opinion. This is what I saw. Doesn't seem right to me. >> You know, it's it depends on how far you get into the weeds on >> it depends on the subject. North like we have a Northport report which which
allows citizens to report things they see with the street lights out or whatever it might be, >> right? There was method to that madness because invariably without that process things fall through the cracks.
>> Nobody gets back. >> There's no accountability. There's no So it's been at least my understanding that we emphasize pushing our citizenry towards that process because it creates
accountability. It it creates a track record. It can be followed. it can be tracked >> in in huge value as opposed to taking something on your own. When something doesn't happen then it kicks back to us then obviously we get re-engaged but you
know we got a good system for that and then and I wouldn't want to see that undone. We worked hard at that because people in the past over the years I understand had that feel. They could just go to anybody anywhere and then things didn't get followed up on and it was like >> well I talked to somebody at the city.
Well, who'd you talk to? Well, I don't know. Some person I saw there was he was right outside the you know >> I get your best man the the cclick fix approach the the data request. Um every city tries to do that. is you know that's that's a best management approach
but I also know from personal experience not every elected official you know they want that they want that citizen touch point and we've had to accommodate those and so that's a way in which that could potentially be addressed but there are pitfalls to that most of the time what we did is that that call made the
department head would direct it into the the tracking information so it was there and then we could track it going forward but this the the man the elected official didn't necessarily want to go that step. So we tried to try to accommodate that as well. So all right. So um before we get into lunch break
here, um those are some strategies that I I think as I've talked with Lynn, I've seen from personal experience as either a manager, as a consultant, and certainly had conversations with Jerome about, you know, is there a way to try to break bread differently to help you
get more comfortable with this approach? um that we think work generally speaking in council manager forms of governance and in the non-interference clauses whatever those language items might look and feel like in each of the organizations that have charters that have those those provisions in some of
them are a continuation but maybe a little broadening to open up a little more involvement and engagement with um some of them may be uncomfortable to you I get that they're meant to be suggestions to you as a way of a path forward They're not required that you
have to do it. I know you've said as well, I'd rather just go there. That's fine. You can do that. But if you have a desire to learn more from a different person and you want to incorporate that into a one-on-one or into a workshop, we've tried to give you is ways so that you can be informed, understanding, and
everything I've said here today, generally speaking, with the exception of your commission policy commissioner about the unanimous discussion is consistent with your your policies and directions. And I I appreciate Heather. I know you said you were so consistent with that, but um what I was trying to say is that there are ways to navigate
this and hopefully give you a chance to be engaged at a level that might look and feel differently where not everybody's kind of vexed into into different corners from there. So I I want to get some comment on that, but go ahead. You your comment. >> If you agree with what you said, we're
still stuck on number one because all the commissioners did not agree to have their one-on-one meetings. So, if that's not going to be addressed or agreed to, then there's no moving past number one. So, I'm going to turn it back to you. This is your chance as a body about um
you know, if you think I what I've suggested doesn't make any sense, I'm I'm a big boy. I'll take that. Or if you think there's tweaks or adjustments or reactions or concerns, um you know, my goal was to have you walk out of this. I do have some slides. We can do those after lunch um to talk about governance
and processes that go kind of go back to this some of that you've seen in the past but I want to just reemphasize some things but I guess you know this is my suggestion and Lynn's suggestion to you as a as a way in which you can get past this. So I guess we need to know from yourselves does this make sense? Does it
not make sense? I understand there's different thoughts and opinions about that but at the end of the day the five of you have to work this through with your three charter officers. Um, this is an opportunity to talk through that. >> I mean, standpoint, I pretty much agree with most everything. I mean, there was
some of these ideas we're doing, some were doing in part, I really think it all boils down to this. While it's funny when when Dimmitri says nobody trusts government, and you know, there's so much bloody truth to it. It's
awful. It's awful to think that, but we can trust each other. See, we can trust each other as a team to do what's best for the city and the citizens, what we believe in our hearts is best. Because if our hearts are pure, if our hearts
are good, if we're here for the right reasons, you see, then we could overcome all these little issues, we could work through all these disconnects because we trust each other to want to do what's best for everyone. So, we ask the hard questions. We say, "Gee, Jerome, that's
not registering with me. I'm not You're not satisfying me. I need to hear more. I need to learn more." And we can do that when we trust each other from the standpoint of we're both we're all sharing the same vision, the same part, we all care the same. When we don't do
that, when the attempt is to subvert, when the attempt is to hurt, when the attempt is to run our own agendas, that's where the problem occurs. And we live through that. And I hoped we wouldn't be living through that now. But
there is a lot of influence to continue that. And that's the elephant in the goddamn room. And we spent all morning into the early afternoon going nowhere. Excuse me for saying it. Nowhere. Heard nothing that I didn't hear before.
Nothing that I didn't know before. It comes down to are we going to work as a team for the citizens? We may not like him. There's days we might not like what he has to say or what he wants to do or what they want to do, but we are a team
that works together to do what's best for the city, the majority of the city. When we don't do that, when we don't work together to do that, we're doing the citizens a disservice, worse than anything else we could possibly do. So,
that's all I got to say. I'm ready for lunch. um appreciate recent feedback. >> Remember you were a big boy. >> Yeah, I understand. No, as I said, there's nothing nothing there that we
can't we can't take as well. As I nor I've invested a lot of, you know, I'm not your employee, but I've invested a lot of time and energy in this organization. I want you to be successful. Um I you are a leading city. you're doing some really outstanding
things, but there's this this hiccup you're in right now, and our goal was to try to get you past this hiccup in some way, shape, or form. So, um, it really to to Jerome's question is is are you prepared to move in this direction, and I realize there's thoughts and opinions
and different perceptions. Nobody's saying you still can't be your own person. I'm not asking you to change you know what you feel is in the best interest of the organization uh from your own respective viewpoints but the goal is there's a process in which you have to do this and I will tell you I
have seen many times in all the different states that I've worked in fortunately not my organizations but I've seen sister organizations where this becomes a problem and it all of a sudden topflight organizations take a step down take a step down take a step
down and it takes them decades to recover in the process. And so I I don't want you as somebody that's worked with this community for a long time, I don't want you to go through that. So our goal is to help you try to give you tools and mechanisms to not have you ratchet down
and address the unique desires and interests of elected officials as they come and go throughout time to address um your your thoughts and opinions. So my hope is maybe this isn't earth shaking more it's evolutionary more than revolutionary uh Phil as you said but to
give you some sense of how other cities that operate like you in common size and common structure navigate this space and we're able to still stay as a high performing organization. So that that's we're trying to accomplish here as well.
So I I will throw out I am in agreement with what Commissioner Stokes has said and what the mayor has said. I also fundamentally don't like the idea of
allowing the commission to email department heads directly um because I'm concerned they have work to do. They have day jobs. they don't exist
for the care and feeding of the commission. However, if the two commissioners who have been having serious and sincere challenges with the inability of of going further
down in the organization, I would be open to doing a test of that on on two conditions. one that we all make full use of our one-on- ons and our agenda briefings and our
workshops, that has to happen first. And if we all agree to do that and if if commissioners Duval and Pro
are willing to try that as a way to maybe you're not getting exactly what you want, but it is a step toward doing that then I would support
under those conditions, >> but I need to hear from my fellow commissioners if they're willing to go out on that limb with me. >> Well, I've utilized my one-on-one. It's just with holidays and couple of times I
cancelled, but I've used them. I'm planning to use them to the fullest >> uh advantage and extent. Um >> I I don't see any problem going forward. I think it's a good start. Um, and like Jerome
said, it's a, you know, it's a compromise. We compromise on things. You're never going to get exactly 100% what you want. Uh, otherwise it would be one person ruled, >> right, >> entity, but it's not >> right.
>> Uh, it's five of us. So, I'm willing to go forward and yes, it's a new year, new year. >> It's sort of a test and see if that would work. again copying, you know, the three iterations of city managers that we have on those emails so
that they're kept in the loop. I I would go along with that. >> Well, I'm sure this uh presentation or this recommendation um was designed in collaboration with the city manager and his feedback. So I don't see any problem problems
going forward especially this is coming from the city manager >> uh trying to accommodate what we proposed so sure. Okay. I I appreciate that, Commissioner Duval. >> Um, Commission.
>> Commissioner Petrol. >> No, but now I'm >> She's finished with >> No, I mean, I heard you say you were willing to go with it. So, I'm good with that. I'll take you at your word. >> There you go. >> There's your guess. It's not a
participation sport. Okay. Well, ready for lunch. >> All right. Let's, as I said, I mean at the adventure. Each step reveals a new page or activity, sparking imagination,
curiosity, and conversation. It's a walk, a story, and an adventure. All in one beautiful setting. The Garden of Five Senses, Boundless Adventures, and the story stroll, where every visit is a story waiting to be
discovered. Residents may begin to see some changes taking place here at Fire Station 81 on Sumpter Boulevard. And here to tell us more about it is Deputy Chief Nick Hurley. Thank you for being here. >> Thank you for having me, Madison. So tell us about what's going to be going on at station 81 in the coming months.
>> So in a few weeks uh we will see the station being torn down and the crews that normally respond out of this station are moving into the temporary fire station which you can see in the background and our fire admin will be moving into city hall. >> So it's being torn down completely and
being built back up, right? Not being retrofitted. >> That's correct. The project started out as a remodel and our design was more to just add a little bit of square footage. The the build It's not that old. It was built in '98, but after the hurricanes, we had to bring the building up to current code. Different codes existed in
1998. So, that process led to a cheaper option, which was to tear down and rebuild. >> Sure. So, is there a general timeline for how long this project is going to take? >> Yeah, so the tearown should start in December. So, by the end of the year, it
should be all flat ground. And then we are being told anywhere between 12 and 14 months before the new station is complete and ready for our crews to move back in. >> Gotcha. Okay. So with a project like this, what does the cost look like and where are those funds coming from? >> So the majority of the funding is
through Certax. Uh the total project is around $17.5 million. >> So since a brand new building is being built, what kind of improvements can be made by taking that route? >> So one of the biggest is we are a critical infrastructure building. So, our crews are expected to respond as
soon as the storm clears. The new building will be rated up to a category 5 hurricane, and that meets the code for our wind load this far inland because we we get a little bit less intense winds as we get away from the coast. >> Sure, that makes sense. So, we're coming
up here on some beautiful trees. >> So, tell me about the plan for these. Are some of them sticking around? What is your plan? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the things we did very early in the project is we recognized that to the best that we could, we wanted to save as many trees
as we could, but especially the mature oaks. >> Sure. >> They provide a lot of shade and they're beautiful and, you know, native to Florida. So, we worked with the contractor to design the parking lot in a way that we could really maximize the ability to keep these trees. So, a large amount of these uh more mature oaks that
you see that were standing under the nice shade canopy, we were able to keep a lot of these trees. some of the smaller oak trees and some of the older palm trees uh we won't be able to keep. But we worked with the city arborist to ensure that you know we we did the best we could with how that design can be and
found out that honestly some of the palm trees are at their end of life as is. >> Got it. Okay. Well, that's great. I know a lot of the residents are going to really appreciate that as well. So to cap it off, service is staying the same. Everyone's getting the the same level going forward. >> Yeah, Madison, you're right. So the
crews that normally operate out of this fire station are just going to be a little ways down the road in the temp station with a temporary apparatus bay. And all of our administrative staff from fire rescue are moving into city hall which is right down the street. And if you need anything from fire rescue, you can go in the front doors of city hall.
Turn to your left where economic development just moved into and you'll see a friendly face from Fire Rescue ready to help you out. >> That's great. Continuing to provide that exceptional customer service. So I really appreciate all the information, Chief. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me. The city wakes before you do.
Quiet work already in motion. Work continues even after you've gone. The way forward kept ready. Every step, every turn, prepared long before you arrive. When your day ends, others begin theirs.
Every hour, every act quietly connected. Most of us don't think about how our city works. We drive on maintained roads. We call when there's an emergency. We assume someone's keeping it all running. And they are. Northport University gives residents a chance to
step behind the scenes, to meet the people doing the work, to see how decisions are made, and to understand how we, as a community, can be part of it. It's not just about learning the facts. It's about learning where you fit in and how you could shape the city we
call home. Uh, the most surprising thing would probably be the opportunity to get taste, which is really cool, understanding how that feels. Would recommend for everyone unless they have a heart condition. I think another thing would probably be how many people it takes to run everything
>> is how well all the departments work together and how well each of the departments know about other departments. So in the case of a big emergency, they already know what other departments are already supposed to do and they all work together.
>> This is always a dance. There's always moving parts. There's always things that are that can impact a decision whether it's state, local, federal, revenue, all these things come into play and it and it's just amazing all these things that
of how how the city is impacted for the variety of things that can occur. >> I feel more confident in the city in the way it operates. I don't see wasteful spending. I see a lot of uh proactive thinking way outside the box of what I
thought a city does. >> Well, I was already in love with Northport. Um I think everyone knows that I got to meet the people who work here, their love for the community, how hard it is to run a whole city, um the
intricacies of it, and the why. It answers so many questions about the why things are done their way. So it does it empowers you to love where you live more and to get more involved. >> And I think the important message here
is the confidence that I've really feel now of the people running each each of these departments. You know, they are running multi-million dollar businesses all separately but coming together with tax dollars that that come through. And
that is by far not an easy task. departments that we've been to seem to have improved with the growth in the city. So, the mere fact that we've grown such a major amount, department head has grown, the staff has grown, the offerings have grown, and the um need
for involvement from the residents has also grown. >> I think parks and wreck really showed up and did an amazing job. They had a bunch of staff people. They kind of brought us around, had different speakers. I think they take the prize for the best uh overall display.
>> Places that I didn't think I would enjoy as much. Like I didn't think I'd enjoy public works as much as I did. I loved it. And it seemed to me that there were the more questions that were asked. >> The economic development council. I think that is just a again it all points to uh live, work, and play within our
community. >> I think there's a lot of misunderstanding out there about really how these departments work, how the city really works. And I think by offering a class like this, you get such an exposure to so many different departments and meet so many different people. You can't help but want to be a
part of it. If you plan on living here and living amongst the community and understanding the growth and understanding what we need, definitely join the Northport University. You're going to be pleasantly surprised. >> I would absolutely say do it because you don't know until you know. And you can
go online and you can read all these things, but a lot of it is the experience and sitting across from from whether it's the the chief of police, the the chief of fire, rescue, utilities, all these, you know, administration, all these departments
are absolutely you want you meet the leaders. You can look into their eye and ask pertinent questions that are important to you. to understand of where they're at, where they're going, what are their constraints, and how we can be as residents try and give them the
resources they need to provide the services that we're asking them to provide. >> I'm more in love with Northport than I've ever been. >> Hey, Brandon, what are you listening to? >> Just listen to my CPR playlist. What's on that? >> Staying alive.
>> I'm Zach and this is Travis from Northport Fire Rescue. >> And I'm Brandon. And this is Brett from the Northport Aquatic Center. >> Did you know a lot of the songs that you listen to on a daily basis follow the beats of CPR, 100 to 120 beats per
minute. >> CPR saves lives. >> Hey, Northport. I'm here with Ryan from our engineering division in public works and we're in an area that is experiencing some drainage concerns that were brought to us by some residents. So
Ryan, what are some things you do when you get onto a scene like this to see what the issue may be? >> First thing we do is we start at the bottom of the system, the outfall, how it connects into the uh canal. Then we start working our way up. So we go through the cross drains, the culverts, the under drains, and we look at every way the water flows downward. And we
look for blockages, uh sumped uh dirt pile up, and even sometimes could potentially collapsed uh covers underneath. And you got to remember, you can't report your uh water being an issue until we have 72 hours of no rainfall. And let's say it rains on
Tuesday and a couple days go by and that second day it rains again, you got to restart your 72 hours. We have to spend time of our water inside the system in order to clean it and in order to slow it down. Otherwise, we're going to end up washing out our neighbors below us. >> Absolutely. So, tell us about what's
happening here. >> Right here, we have a rather large uh blockage inside the system. This is clearly a um a legal dump of some sort uh a tree obviously. And this will slow down the water. If we could see on the north side of it, or north as in the
upper part of the uh drainage way, it's full of water. But when we look at our footage from down below, it's dry. So, this is a huge point of collab collecting water. These systems really fail sometimes with like a a death by a thousand cuts. You get a um a sump here,
a collapsed uh covert pipe, a blockage like this, and it slowly adds up. >> That makes sense. So, if anybody out there is seeing issues like this or experiencing it in your neighborhood, you're welcome to report it um through our Northreport system, which is at
northportfl.gov/ /northreports or you can give the public works customer service a call. In Northport, families are finding more and more places built just for them. We opened um this past June. We are an indoor play center for children ages 0
to 7. We do open play sessions, birthday parties, special events, and classes here at the play center. for me. Um, you know, being a Northport resident, there was really not a whole lot in Northport for children. Um, besides the local parks, so it was super important for me
to have something in the community to be able to offer to families with young children. You want to have that option to be able to still get out of the house with the kids, get their energy out, and not have to hike all the way up somewhere with traffic. And you can just go to a spot near you and just make
those special memories that are close to home. Playtime Paradise isn't the only new spot making Playtime local. Do the Beach is a immersive indoor adventure park. We are primarily an inflatable based attraction. We have over 14 different ride attractions scattered
throughout the park with growing young families pouring into Northport and growing the city. We just knew there was such a need for families to have an outlet and some some good entertainment, active entertainment for children. One of our core beliefs as a as a company is
encouraging kids to get involved in active and social play. Getting them away from their screens and using their imaginations. >> From slides to inflatables, dance classes, birthday parties, Northport is growing and so are the options for young families right here at home. The
community has welcomed us with open arms. >> We are thrilled to be here. It >> shows families that there's a place for them um to grow as a young family in Northport. While you're watching me run away from this hurricane, you could be signing up for emergency alerts. Sign up at alerts
county.com today. Welcome to the brand new Northport Podcast Network. We're so excited to introduce you to our revamped lineup of shows created to keep you connected, informed, and inspired about everything happening in our city. >> That's right. With three unique shows
under one network, there's something for everyone. >> First up is Northport. Now, Madison and I will rotate hosting this fast-paced news-driven podcast to bring you the latest city updates, event previews, and important information, all in one quick listen. >> Think of it as your weekly guide to
staying in the know about what's happening in Northport. >> Next, we have Northport Stories. Laura and I will share heartfelt and inspiring tales from around our community. Stories that showcase the people, places, and moments that make our city special. And
don't worry, Voices of Northport isn't going anywhere. I'll continue bringing you even more personal stories and interviews with residents who shaped our city. And last but not least, Northport Living. Cody and I will also rotate hosting this show, which is all about tips, events, and lifestyle ideas to
help you make the most of life right here in Northport. Whether you're looking for familyfriendly activities, ways to get involved, or helpful home and garden tips, Northport Living has you covered. >> With breaking news, heartfelt stories, or practical tips, the Northport Podcast
Network is your go-to source for all things Northport. >> Make sure to subscribe to the Northport Podcast Network wherever you listen, and join us as we celebrate and connect with our amazing community. >> Northport Now will be released bi-weekly. >> Northport Stories and Living will be
monthly. A schedule will be available on social media and our website. Hello everyone, Devon Pulis here, aquatics manager. Welcome to my crib. We have fun here at the crib. Programs included. Become a pass member. Play all
year long. Hey, at the crib. We do have rules. We take all payments here at the crib. Apple Pay, Mastercard, Visa, cash. You pay right here to enjoy the crib. So, enter through the gate. Childp
proof, most adult proof. Shade. What's that? Our newly installed sun shade available for rent all season long. Here at my crib, you don't have to worry about a place to find a seat. We've added more chairs than ever here at the
crib. If you're coming to enjoy the cribs and you got little ones, we got the perfect area for them. Our Pelican playground, newly painted, fresh floor, fresh palm tree. It's looking clean. Looking for a place to work your upper
body? Take a shot here at our Stingray shuffle. Looking to relax? I got you covered here with our lazy river. Living more on the adventurous side. Check out the slides right behind me. Newly painted. All offer something
individual and unique. Check it out. Check out the main pool kept at a wonderful 84 degrees all year long. I just want you to have a good time. We have safety covered. Lifeguards here,
staff all day, every day when we're open for you to enjoy. Concession is open. Pizza, pretzels, nachos, ice cream. We got it all. My crib is your crib. Looking forward to
seeing you here. >> Duty calls. Hello, my name is Jerome Fletcher, city manager of the city of Northport. I'm at the Northport Aquatic Center. I'm on the job today. Let's go. Good morning, Jessie. Good, sir. >> Nice to see you.
>> All right. Thanks for having me today. >> Of course. We're going to go through our opening checklist for this morning to make sure that the facility is safe and operational. >> All right, sounds good. Let's do it. Before anything else, the team walks the entire area to make sure everything is clean and in good shape.
>> Our next part of our task is to make sure that our body of water is one clear. The water must remain clean. We must identify any possible materials that shouldn't be in the water. >> Then it was time to check the surge tanks. >> You can see the glistening of the water down there. >> If the water is too deep and you hear a
rushing of water, that means that this needs to be filled before we can begin operations for this. >> Okay, >> it's part science, part intuition. At the relaxi river, Jesse showed me the digital checklist system, the hydro app. As soon as I click yes on this checklist that let's say the water is clear and I
do not identify that the water is cloudy or any sense that yes goes directly to my manager and lets them know that at this exact time I checked that water to make sure it was safe and clear. >> This technology being used at its best job. >> Now our rotations we have evolved to
having our lifeguards into a more of a roving position. >> With the competition pool we still maintain the chairs for the height eligibility. Um, but here we have to have a minimum of five lifeguards just to run this body of water. >> Wow. >> And we actually have a lifeguard
positioned in our catch pool over there to help our guests that are coming out of the slides at a barracuda tarp and twister. >> I've seen that person there. Then Jesse brought up something that most people might not think about. Pool skimming. >> Pool skimming is the sounds of the water being properly flowed. So with those
drains, all the water has to constantly filter throughout our pool at least three to four times a day. So not only is the water continuously being pumped in, continuously flowing out, being cleansed through our sand filters, then being pumped back into the pool. It's a
very long process, but it makes sure that the water stays the clear as possible. >> Then Jesse taught me about the zones. >> It helps maintain that their body of water is theirs to protect anybody that's in their zone. So lifeguard Brandon right now is actually scanning red one zone. So red one zone is here.
Any part of this body of water that reaches let's say all the way from those stairs to the bulkhead and to the side of the corner. This entire zone is his right now to make sure that they are staying healthy and hydrated. We do have a 30 minute a rotation here for all of
our lifeguards and lifeguards are not meant to bypass more than one hour of continuous lifeguarding. So after every hour, the lifeguards must take either a visual break or an actual break. After Jesse's walkthrough, I met up with Matt,
one of the pool technicians responsible for keeping the water clean and safe every single day. He started by showing me how they test the water across the park. We got comp pool, lazy river, kids pool. >> Each sample is dropped in the small disc and loaded into a device and in just
seconds it gives a full readout on the pool's chemistry. And before this little machine was created, this was a more of a manual model. >> Yeah, we um a lot of people will use tailored tests. So, it involves like a little different chemicals. You would fill up a container and drop them in
like a certain amount and basically it'll calculate from there um what your pH and chlorine is. >> And this is the daily task. >> Yeah, this is what we do at the start of every day. >> Inside the control room, he fired up the valves that get the entire water park up and running. When we have everything
going, the water level will be back up, but since we're not running everything in the moment, it'll drop it down a couple inches. >> Next, he showed me the daily checklist for the part. >> Then we have our chemical data sheets. So, basically just making sure like that our comp pool, lazy river, kids pool are
all where they need to be, anywhere between two parts per million or 10 parts. And then pH is somewhere between 7.2 and 7.8 for a healthy pool. >> There you go. Then came the back washing and wasting process. Flushing the
filters to keep the water flowing freely or removing excess water from the system to keep the water levels balanced. >> And then it'll start coming out in this pit. >> So this this whole pit will fill in about 3 minutes. >> Really? Over there? >> Yep. >> Next, we changed out one of the strainer
baskets which help catch large debris before it can reach the pumps. >> I'll tra that one. Thank you. Then new one goes in just like that. And we usually let those dry out. I'll clean them later this week. >> Before joining the team in Northport, Matt worked as a lifeguard in Charlotte
County under Trish Sturgis, our assistant director of parks and recreation. >> So I've known Trish a very long time. So that definitely was one of the influences of wanting to come work at the aquatic center. Had me go out for an AFO course recently, which is aquatic facility operator course. basically
anything and everything relating to a facility like water chemistry, safety rules, that this and that. So, I went there. I just passed that class. So, it's a little little bit of knowledge under my belt. It was definitely useful. >> Well, Matt, we're we're grateful for
your time and your experience and all you put into your career here and congratulations on your certification and you do amazing job here, sir. >> Thank you for joining me today at the Northport Aquatic Center. It's a great facility. I want to thank director Sandy Funheller, assistant director Trish Sturgis. I have learned so much amazing
things today. I would like to say that the technical expertise that goes to keep the water safe as well as the people safe is an amazing combination. See you on the next job. Thanks for being here. >> Hey, city of Northport. My name is Sandra Budro. I am with AECOM and I'm
representing the city of Northport on this glorious Price Boulevard project. We are here on Price Boulevard at the Blue Ridge Waterway in which we are building the box culvert. Um, as we've talked in the past, we're doing a double barrel box culvert here and we are
currently pouring the second wall of the structure. That wall's got to cure, the concrete has to cure and then we can strip form. So, it does take some time for the walls to cure and then for us to start building the top. After that, we're going to build uh the earthwork
and then the roadway. So, at this point, we are currently early on in the process. If you want further updates, you're going to go to the Price Boulevard web page. Hello, I'm Jerome Fletcher, city manager of Northport. I'm on the job with the solid waste division of public works.
Let's go. Make yourself at home. >> Oh, I love the duck. Look at that. Yes. >> That got passed down through a few co-workers and then now it's it's ended up in this truck. So, I was like, I want to keep it. So, Well, well, maybe it's
for the uh two-time driver of the year. How about that? >> Yeah. >> Oh, congratulations. >> I appreciate it. >> Yeah. You You only been here for two years, right? >> Two and a half now. So, >> all right. >> Recognition is nice, but what he really values is the simplicity of the work.
Meet Cole Sigley, a solid waste driver for the city of Northport. >> You can put me on the same truck and same route, leave me alone for 30 years, and I'll it'll be done. You don't have to worry. You don't have to worry about it, >> right? It's very low stress. Let me do my job. Yep. >> I'll do it right. Come back tomorrow.
>> Yep. And then you go on to your next route and then you just keep doing that and then eventually the weekend comes. You enjoy the weekend right back to it. >> Right. That's that's how life should be. >> It's a career he planned for early on right after high school. >> I went and got my CDL after I graduated high school and my goal is to get here
eventually. So >> All right. >> So I sound like a man with a plan. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, we appreciate it. We appreciate everything you guys do. He even shared a little bit about where he grew up. Far from the Florida heat >> because we we're from West Virginia. >> Okay. Where what part of West Virginia?
>> Uh so it's north central. So like Clarksburg. It's about 40 minutes from Morgantown, which is where the university and the schools are and all that stuff. >> I've been to Wheeling, West Virginia a couple times up in the mountains. >> Yeah. >> I I I'm going to tell you, driving up those streets when the streets are like
really narrow >> and you got to wind up those I was like, "Oh my." And I was young. I was like 23. >> Yeah. >> And I was like, man, this is going to be a problem. >> There are some of those mountain roads where >> All right, we're back at it.
>> Okay. Um, thank you for indulging me in a little bit to have a chance to chat with the commissioner. Um, I want to just bring us back just to kind of land the plane here in terms of of a process about good governance and your roles and responsibilities and efforts. Um, I thought it'd be appropriate to show this
good governance pillar. This is a pillar. This is one of your pillars in your strategic plan that you've adopted uh that we've worked on over the years. And I just wanted to say that the purpose of what we were talking about today is to try to devise systems of governance that work that allow you to
be engaged and to fully understand what you do, how you do it so that you can be as efficient as possible uh going forward. So I wanted to bring that back to the touch points. But the other pieces I want to do just very quickly is to just remember that whatever I've said today and even the suggestions I've
proposed for potential consideration by the city are entirely consistent with what we talked about at December of 2024 uh when we went through a workshop to talk about governance and talk about roles and responsibilities and efforts. So just at the front end we talked a
little bit about some of those foundational documents. Um, I just want to I think it's helpful to just touch these again at a high level about the roles that you play as elected officials. Part of this is external communications about serving that link. I said you're you're unique in the sense of understanding that relationship with
your voters, but you also have relationships at the political level at state, regional, and local levels and tpos and things of that nature with your peers and elected officials because that helps you uh develop that insight. conversations about one-on- ones and the
discussions you have with your manager and your charter officials and those discussions, those are really to give a sense of staff about are you moving in the right direction, the wrong direction. You had that unique relationship. Oh, I'm not I'm not I'm not on mic. I'm sorry. >> Okay, back on. Good. Okay, super. um
that you have that unique role to understand those relationships and understand what the pulse of the community is. And so whatever we've discussed today is to also say that's still part of your roles and responsibilities. You clearly are an elected official of this organization. You should be an ambassador to the
organization. Uh how you appropriately deal with each other during your public meetings and your engagement have an impact on efforts. I've talked about economic development. There's a lot of places when there's craziness going on the day, you're not going to see those economic development projects because they don't want to be caught up in that. So, that is a certainly a component of
of discussion as well. Phil, you mentioned about sometimes having to make decisions and make discussions to constituents that is the answer that is the right answer for the right reasons. It may not be wellreceived, but sometimes you have to explain those decisions of why you made those efforts.
But the important important point of what I've tried to describe here is to have an understanding of the process that the collectively the five of you and with your staff come to conclusions. And at the end of the day, nothing I've suggested today changes anything. If you feel strongly one way, I'm not saying
you don't advocate for your position. Quite the contrary, you ought to be doing it. That's what you're involved as elected official. But at the end, it takes three to four or five depending on whatever what threshold you need on your decisions to go forward. And that's the process that distinguishes those high performing organizations versus those
that are struggling as well. So recognize that um internal communications. This is this process of your discussion with your staff. In this case, your three employees, but we've talked about broadening that conversation somewhat as it relates to your thoughts of what
makes sense for the city of Northport because you're going to see and hear and react to things or have viewpoints or your own perspectives that are going to be different. So you become that compass because that's helps the staff guide their directions and focus on what they're recommending to you. But
certainly in internal external communications as well as internal communications within the boundaries we've talked about today. The other piece that is so important is talking about fiduciary responsibilities. Uh I'm going to go on a stretch. I don't think it's too far that I suspect the city's budgets probably a little larger than
most of your respective checkbooks and and household budgets. Um every I've worked at some communities. I can't say that when there's been some very very very well compensated elected officials but for 99% of the group um this is a big big piece of your operation and at
the end you have fiduciary responsibilities and making sure cities or monies are spent appropriately. We just had a conversation a little bit with the commissioner about that. What's important understanding your financial statements sometimes that's stuff that you're going to need your finance director to explain to you or your auditors to explain to you. Those are
certainly fair games because at the end of the day, you are ultimately responsible for ensuring the finances are accounted for appropriately and otherwise and that are being used in the manner in which you prescribe by your your ordinances, your budgets and things of that nature and that you have the appropriate systems in play. At the end
of the day, all that ultimately falls to the manager's responsibility through the finance director and the the internal controls that they may have purchasing and things like that. But at the end, you have that direct oversight to ensure that that is being done appropriately. This is the big one. Policy. Uh that's
you do a lot of things. You adopt ordinances. You adopt budgets. You set policy. But policy is what you do most of the time. And policy is in the form of your planning and your LDC's and what you do for your millage rates and what you're doing for your your um utility rates. Those are all policy decision
decisions. They certainly have impacts as relates to the financing. And we spent a lot of time, I mentioned earlier, I showcased Northport in terms of what you've done and your mission, vision, and values and your strategic plan and how you monitor and track that effort. Those are things that certainly
matter because it provides clarity to your staff. Um, but that's not to say that you can't challenge things. If something doesn't feel right, smell right, this is the part you certainly as elected officials have the chance to deal with. And you should ask those questions to make sure you fully
understand what's going on and what that looks like and that you make sure that you're constantly trying to push the envelopes. I said you've been a best management practice city now for some time and that that will be times when you want to go deeper into a topic where you want to have your subject matter experts, your department heads or
looking at best management practices from other cities or peer cities to proceed. So everything we talk about today certainly gets to that nature of making sure as you're developing your policies, you have the best understanding of what that looks and feels like to you. Um the other piece is
that has come up in a couple conversations. You get exposed to a whole lot more information than the average citizen is. And so they've got their soccer and their kids and their football and baseball practice and everything else. They're expecting you to do your work. But that means you have
to be understanding of those items. So that is your agenda prep, your one-on-one meetings, your workshops, all those conversations all help you understand what you do better uh so that you can do big good public policy information and make good decisions that
are based on sound policy and and and data. Um and just recognize that many times opinions that come to you that may be contrary to what action you've taken, they may not have that full picture. Uh and so that's where that external communications of of communicating back
to your your constituents uh is so critical so that they understand the context about why a decision was made. Certainly um we talked about priority enforcing um doing the right things and always doing them. You can't do the wrong thing enough times to make it right. So that gets back to adherence to
your policies, your procedures, your administrative and your permission policies and to make sure that you're following the rules and the the boundaries that you've established and or your charter has established as well. Um the visionary piece is what we often talk about when we do our strategic
vision. It's about where you want to go. And this is an issue a lot of people get confused about this. When we do our sessions with you, we call it strategic vision. You get to set the direction and the course of direction of where this organization and where this community is going. The implementation of that vision
is the responsibility of the staff. So that's when we talk about strategic visioning versus strategic planning. And so when we talk about those sessions, we go through this where do you want to go? What are the issues? What are you trying to drive towards? You're setting that tone as an elected body and the staff is
following that to say, okay, I've heard what you want to do. here's how we can get there and these are the steps we go forward but once again you're at that 10,000 foot level here's the direction we're heading staff's on the implementation level of how to get there and we talk about the price be willing to pay many cities say I want to be that
outstanding city but they want to have the lowest military in the state sometimes those issues are direct conflict with each other and so you got to be willing to say how much I'm willing to spend to get to the goals and objectives we have and this is a question I posed to the
group before about why this stuff matters. I've mentioned before that a lot of economic development efforts um never hit certain communities and they wonder why and it's because of just craziness that happens to the day or lack of direction or lack of clarity or whatever that looks and feels like. They
don't want to get caught up in that because especially from developer standpoint time is money and certainty is money and lack of certainty means we kind of linger going forward. So what we I've suggested that as you think through why governance is important um this is a
statement that I think hopefully resonates with you as a group uh that you're making quality decisions you're increasing the significant the impact of those decisions for the future of Northport and I've heard a number of you say hey we're all trying to get there we may have different thoughts and opinions but how you do that is equally as
important as ultimately getting to that end line as well so let me close with just a piece of what we often will use when we have governance conversations with elected officials. Uh we have 11 principles that we suggest at SGR that
that organizations think through as they govern local government functions. And so have you heard me speak before of the Athenian OP and basically I serve a country I want to leave it for future generations better than what we do you know better than I than I inherited as
well. So this is kind of along those lines, but I just want to highlight kind of principles that we think are tangible and that most people can kind of grasp and get their handle on. Uh first one has to deal with recognizing the decisions you make today have long-term
implications. When you change a ulvc, it's not just for next month or next year. It has implications and tales down the road. So the thoughts are being that you're looking down the road at your implications of your decisions and that you're trying to understand and a couple of you have said this earlier making the
best interest and the best decisions you can on behalf of the citizens as a whole that may not be universally liked and I'm going to say it's probably more than may not it probably will not be liked. There are always decisions you make that are not going to be popular and may or not be with people that actually elected
you as well. Um, this organization has done a good job in the past about vision, mission, and values and recognizing that and that you're really trying to recognize that you service the entirety of your community. People that elected you, people that voted against you, opponents, proponents, developers,
residents, all those discussions and all those stakeholders all come into play and they all land on your dates. And you have to kind of figure out how you're balancing all those as well. But if you focus back on the north star, the vision, the mission, the values, you'll probably be okay in those decisions at
the end of the day. Um, the other piece will be the factchecking and understanding. And part of what we talked about today hopefully give you some ideas to get a greater awareness of the issues and understanding of the challenges you face. But sometimes we've all been in public meetings and we've
all been in hearings and all that and the noise decibel gets up and I can tell you that I've seen meetings where people walk out and said, "I can't believe we just made that decision based upon we had all the facts and figures. We made a decision based upon the craziness of the day at in the given room." So we always
encourage you to say go back to your facts, go back to what knows, do the sniff test to make sure it makes sense and you're making those decisions based on sound policy, based on the evidence, based on the briefings you've received as well. Um, I've said this before. Anyone you know where it takes a smart man to know
where you're stupid came from? >> That's that comes from the great philosopher um Barney Rubble. Um, that we will have a lot of our own insights and perspectives and we think we're going to know it all, but really we're all going to have blind spots. And
we talked a little bit about that when we did our our IOPS sessions about how people perceive and react to information and that there are different perspectives and different points and views that we may not take into account. What we've tried to do today is to give you some insights to be able to capture those different thoughts and views so
that you ultimately can become better educated and aware of the issues you've got in play and to challenge those things that you feel maybe you don't fully understand or don't necessarily agree with the direction you're going with. as well. This is a piece number five is a piece that I I wanted to you know it's it's you've seen this before
but I wanted to highlight it again today as well. Um many times especially when we're in different forms of government um many times people want to be in different lanes and the goal here that I'm trying to drive the point is as policy makers you have a lane of policy
and oversight responsibility and everything we've talked about today does not change any of that. We've talked about opening up to give you more insight and and and kind of pulling the covers back in terms of the organization. But if you're doing staff's job or staff's doing your job,
then it's not working. >> Everybody has their roles and responsibilities. Your role is policy. Their role is day-to-day administration. And so when you step into other lanes that are outside the role, you're starting to confluence that whole concept of why the council manager former government was structured to
allow professionals running day-to-day you as policies. Doesn't mean you don't have questions, you don't have insights, you don't have different thoughts and opinions, but your role is at that policy level, not at the day-to-day management level as well. And then the bigger issue is also
focusing on solutions. um you are going to be bombarded with people asking for quick solutions to very complex problems. Um most of the easy stuff in local government has been solved. I will tell you that from being in this role a
long time. The simple solution has already been thought through, explained, done, tried, failed, maybe successful, whatever. But those stuff that low hanging fruit is pretty much gone for most cities, especially a city of this size that are doing things well. Um, and so the challenge is understanding the
problem without immediately going to a solution. And we see this a lot. I sit in a lot of council meetings over the years where somebody has a problem and immediately everybody's jumping a solution. Nobody's figured out exactly what the problem is or the principle. So you end up treating symptoms versus the root cause of the issue. So just
understand that that give yourself time, give your staff time to understand the issue at hand before you jump into a solution going forward. Um, this is one that I think we're in today and we're still having some challenges today. Um, and this is the
question of trust. Um, we've got to we've heard about people not trusting the government, maybe not trusting staff, maybe not trusting each other, whatever that looks like. Um, and I can't solve that one fully for you, but I can say that it always starts with the first step. You know, everybody's got to
recognize that we've got to get if there's fundamental challenges and issues with trust. uh all I can encourage you is you have to have that conversation about why and if there's something that can enhance the value of that trust. But if you don't trust each other, you don't trust staff or staff
doesn't trust the commission where they're going to go, u I encourage you to go back to your mission, vision, values and say if you've all adopted these, that will be the foundation for helping you build trust amongst each other. And if you don't like those mission, vision, values, then we change
those mission, vision, values. But if you do, that ought to be your northstar in which you base your foundations of trust in your day-to-day engagement with each other and with staff and with your community as a whole. um talked about the processes and talking about um I mentioned throughout
the session I want you to continue to advocate and be a proponent for whatever you believe is in the best interest of the city. Nothing I've told you today would change that. You may not be successful in that role. You may be in a 4-1 vote or a 3-2 vote or you may be on
a 50 vote. I want you to advocate for what you believe. But once the decision's made, that's the decision. That's the way the process works. And so if you build a process where you can have those healthy conversations and allow everybody to vocalize their
thoughts and opinions, but at the end of the day, it boils down to numbers. Takes at least three of you and sometimes more than that depending on the nature. If you need a super majority for a millage or something of that nature or a budget, but the bottom line is you get that chance to debate it. You debate it in a process that everybody understands the
rules of engagement and when it's done, it's done. And yeah, you got to move on. And I know that's frustrating. I've had recommendations didn't get approved, but I still work the next day for my same mayor and commission. Uh and and so and you do this as a body as well, recognizing that the importance is we've had the chance to talk through it.
Um, I've not seen this as it relates to my engagement with you in the sessions I've had, but I've had a number of of city commissions and councils where I mean I'm I'm starting to think I got to pack heat when I walk into the chamber where
that is just very very tense, very dis disruptive, very discourteous, not polite. Um, I go back to the point my engagement with you generally has been in that fashion what I've seen. Um, I will tell you that those thoughts and opinions matter and how you deal with
those differing thoughts and opinions matter not only to your citizens, to your staff, but also to your development community and the people that have made investments in your community. They expect a certain level of decorum. You've got policies and procedures to do that. Uh, and recognize that you may not
have people that agree with everything you say. I would venture to say there are a lot of people that disagree with what you've said, probably what we've even talked about today. But how you deal with those people that disagree with you matter. Um, and if you treat them with respect and approach to saying, you have a different thought or opinion. I respect that difference.
Here's why I did what I did. I hope you can appreciate you just disagree on that matter. How that's done is so important in terms of your success of an organization. And the last couple of them um about how I know this is really hard. I've seen this just in my 10 years
since I've left active city management and consulting. the level of antagonistics and name calling that comes to you as elected officials and as staff um is is quite frankly very discouraging. Uh it is something that we
have seen unfortunately as a society change. And so when you all talk about how hard it is to be an elected official, this is part of that. It's tough because at the end of the day, we're all human. We still take these things and we're still personal and we appreciate them, but we also have to kind of be a shield and let some of that
stuff roll off of you. I just encourage you to encourage how you respond to those attacks. You can do it through rules of decorum as you've established before. Um that may be coming from the public or from some citizen group at you, but also how you deal with each
other as a group. Uh you may not agree or disagree, but you got to be able to to work together going further. And then um I've said this as a parent, but also I've said this as a grandparent now, but I enjoy watching this. I have seen some councils that really um I mentioned
earlier they literally have been in counter suits and depositions and stepping into those areas. So no matter how tense this may feel, you're still better than a vast majority. It doesn't make it easier and does not saying that it can't be improved, but how you deal
with the conflicts that you deal with as elected officials and and your conflicts that you may have with staff recommendations and thoughts uh certainly makes a big difference as well. So, um, I just want to review those because those were something I've talked about, uh, a little over a year
ago. What we've discussed today was not to intend to change any of those. It's not intended to weaken your responsibilities as elected officials. Hopefully, what we try to do is give you some insights uh, to be better at what you do. I also feel a little bit like the glass is half full. I think we've
made made some concepts of discussions. Uh I am open for any continued conversations with you individually or collectively uh to try to help you get past where you are today in this issue. But I know it's it's a fundamental question of of trust and and and understanding the rules and
responsibilities and um I as I said we've given you our best shot. I know Lyn is with us for a little bit. She has to leave at 2 o'clock. She has another conflict as as I'm going to have to scoot out as well. But um we feel like we we tried to give you some tools to help you in that effort. Um, if we if we fail in that, I'm I'm certainly open for
conversations and continued discussion as well. My approach to and I know we kind of had a little bit of this about going forward is if there's any comments or thoughts or takeaways and commitments that any of you would like to make, this would certainly be the time and the place to be able to do that before you
uh to wrap things up. anybody? >> It is what it is. >> Okay. All right. Well, I know you always um I'll I'll give it an opening com or a closing comment for either you or you or Jerome before I think you traditionally take public comment if there's any
anything that comes forward. I don't know what your your nature is here or if there's anything else that's come forward. Um but I'll try to wrap things up. I know we're hitting the two o'clock window, so we'll go from there. But any >> I I'll make a closing comment. Um, we had some dialogue. We had some
discussions today. Um, where this takes us forward, we'll find out. I mean, I'm appreciate Dimmitri uh looking at different possibilities and and getting a little
bit more understanding and and participating. I was a little disappointed with Commissioner Dval not interacting, but that's your choice and that's fine. Um, we've all taken our well except for I know you're finishing
it up and we've got time, but I think taking the ethics class is a good point for all commissioners going forward if you haven't. I don't know if you guys took them last year or not or if this is the first time, but there's a lot of information there and hopefully we can
take what we learned today and move forward and prosper. That's about the best I can put it. >> Len, are you still on or did you I know at 2 o'clock you said you'd scoot. >> I'm I can hang out for a couple more minutes. I thought I'd be here for the wrap-up.
>> Len, you I'm going to give you a chance to make a plug for the elected officials academy and the process. I know that's near and dear to your heart, but this is something that uh I thought you might want to chat about. >> Well, the mayor has attended the weekend training class that the Florida League
of Cities offers called EMO, Institute for Elected Municipal Officials. We will be meeting the first week in February up in Jacksonville. Little bit of a hike, but we go north uh west uh usually to the south and then west coast in the
course of a year, moving it around. It is a all day Friday, all day Saturday course. It's based on the league's book, the Florida Municipal Officials Manual. And what we try to do is give about 30 to 35 city officials the opportunity to
come together and really learn, also network with one another, plenty of opportunities at the breaks to talk with folks from other cities. It is in its 34th year of existence. It's been a very successful training program and I do
recommend uh if you really want to talk with other city officials, it's a great small group in the course of two days to both learn, network and engage. Thank you. I appreciate that, Doug. >> Yeah, most definitely. Well, as I said, this is another avenue for training and
and um just as managers and staff go to their own conferences and events, the program that Lyn has talked about is truly an outstanding effort to network with people and deal with individuals that are in your roles and how they navigate and deal with issues that may help you and vice versa. You're going to
help them as those conversations occur as well from there. So, um Jerome, any any comments you want to make as we close? Yes. So, first of all, thank you Doug and Lynn for being here today. We appreciate
the guidance through the conversations. Um, we focus directly on good governance today and not our strategic planning because of what we've gone through in recent months and um, thank you for taking us back to where we were and what
we talked about. But to have a commissioner who publicly has been ready to speak about any and everything, including being angry on the dis, filing complaints that had to be responded to,
comments that we had to answer for behavior that he had an opinion, didn't change his opinion, and then tried to publicly disparage myself and others to sit here and not have anything to say regarding how to fix any of that or move
forward is a disjustice to the people who elected this commissioner to provide an impact to our community through the role that they're in. And there's no other word to know other than to say disappointing and disgrace for that behavior. There's no way we can move forward and there's no way that he can
be a part of the effective representation of this board to solve problems for this community acting in that manner. Thank you, Doug. Just as a sidebar note, I did have a chance, Commissioner and I have a chance to chat a little bit. Um, if you're
open, I'm more than willing to have a a little more depth. I know we did have a lot of time to talk through this. As I say, I can't I mean, at the end of the day, you are a group. My goal was for you to be as successful as possible. If there's anything else I can do to help in that regard, I I just open that door that we can have that conversation. So,
okay. All right. I'll go to the clerk. any any any responses that public or comments or emails or anything? I know you always close with that, so I didn't want to close that out. >> There's no public comment in the process. Okay. All right. Um, thank you for your patience. I know we were trying
to wrap up at 1. You all know I got to be on on the road here quickly as well for another client, but I appreciate your time today. Um, we'll do a follow-up. I'll certainly do a debrief afterwards and and if there's something we can do to help as we talk about whatever the next steps may be, uh, we're here to do that. So, thank you for your time today.
>> Thank you. >> Good. Okay, >> it's 2004 and I adjourn this workshop.