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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=3SmPXTWkBfI

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this meeting to order at 6:30 p.m. the April No, not April 2nd. June 4th. I'm looking at the April 2nd uh meeting minutes. June 4th of 26 for North St. Paul Planning Commission.

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Let us do roll call. >> Chair Blee >> here. >> Vice Chair Weise >> here. >> Commissioner Alvarez is absent. Commissioner Muick >> here. Commissioner Maruchini >> here, >> Commissioner Sorrowro >> here,

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>> and absent today is city council leaison Nordby. Present is community development director Roberts and planning commission secretary Churnney. >> Excellent. Thank you. We have an agenda before us. I don't

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think it's too complicated. Um, can I have a motion to approve uh adopt the agenda? >> So moved. >> A motion from Commissioner Sorrow. A second. >> I'll second. >> Second. Commissioner Wise. All in favor say I. >> I.

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>> I. >> We are good with the agenda. Uh, meeting minutes of April 2nd. Now, as I understand Robert's rules, been not really studying this, but my wife does Robert's rules on a regular

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basis. The motion comes and then there's discussion, in which case we should have a motion to approve the meeting minutes of April 2nd. >> And then you ask for discussion

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>> and then ask for discussion if there's anything to be done with it. So, a motion to approve meeting minutes from April 2nd. >> So, move. >> So, move from that was okay. Did I thought it was you? Commissioner

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Maruchccini. A second. >> Second. >> Second from Commissioner Sorrow. All in favor say uh is there discussion? Anything to change? Question. I don't think I saw it.

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>> Looks good. Yeah, we had some complication there if I recall because of the the some of the discussion that went back and forth, but I think it was properly recorded. >> Mhm. I think it was a good summary. >> Okay. So, uh there being no further

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discussion, all in favor say I. >> I. >> We are we've approved the meeting minutes. New process done. Okay. The meeting is now open to the public for uh addressing any items that

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are not on the agenda. Anyone here that has anything that's not on the agenda? Oh, looks like not. So, let's move forward and get to public hearings. Can we have staff present

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uh variance request for 2130 cow and place east? >> Can you see the presentation? >> I don't know. That's a really nice image. >> Yeah. >> I don't think that's 2130 common place. And we're in North.

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>> Yeah. I I frequently wonder where they find images on screen savers and I want them. You guys technical difficulties for those who are not witnessing it.

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>> Bring up the sevenyear-old Yeah. Could you try the presentation? I'm not sure why that's not coming up with someone's computer. >> Some random computer is being presented. Try this one.

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>> It's on It's on the one screen there. >> Or what? Oh, now it's on the other. >> Hey, thank you. >> Thank you. No, it is. >> There we go.

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>> Now we have it on three screens. >> Advance. >> All right. Thank you for your patience with that. >> Excellent. Thank you. >> Right. Tonight, the first of two public hearings that the planning commission is going to hold today. We'll be considering a variance request

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application for the property at 2130 Cowan Place East. Starting with some background, the applicants are Tom Griffith, who is the owner of the property, and Jacob Forest, who is an applicant representative as

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well. The location is 2130 Cow Place East. Um for additional context, the lot size is 41,936 square feet or 0.96 acres. The variance request is a 252 ft variance request for

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maximum size for accessory structure. The project description as mentioned is for an accessory structure, a detached garage that would be 40 ft by 30 ft with a total of 1,200 square ft. The

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applicant proposes to demolish the existing attached garage and detached garage prior to the construction of the proposed detached garage. And uh yes, on that slide you see in the red the demo

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and the beige yellow would be where the new garage would be located. Um there's certificate of survey as well is located in the packet for you. Going to code requirements, the lot is located in the R1 single family

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residential zoning district. The zoning ordinance states that the total square feet of an accessory building shall not exceed 10% of the lot area and in no case shall it exceed 1,000 square ft of gross floor area. The sum of all square

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footage for attached garages and detached garages shall not equal or exceed the finished livable floor area of the footprint or ground floor of the principal structure to which it is an accessory. Back to the proposed conditions. Um, the

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applicant proposes the demolition of 913 aggregate square ft of existing garages, both attached and detached, in order to build a new 1,200 square ft detached garage. Um, additional context, the

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ground floor area of the home is 948 square ft as noted on the survey. Therefore, the variance sought is 252 square feet above what is allowed by the zoning ordinance. On this slide here, we have the

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applicant statement as provided in the application for the variance request. Um, I would like to point out the final key part of the statement. Um the applicant indicates that the variance is necessary due to special conditions that

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are particular to the property given the size of the property and in which it is used for. Now getting into the variance review criteria. Um I'm just going to walk through each one of these for you. staff

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find that the proposed use of the accessory structure as storage space for vehicles, lawn equipment, and one recreational vehicle would be in harmony with the purposes of the zoning ordinance. The proposal staff believe is unlikely

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to have any adverse effect on the health, safety, or general welfare of the city. In addition, the property would be used in a reasonable manner. Staff also do not believe that the variance, if granted, would alter the

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essential character of the locality. Um, this would of course be contingent on the applicant building the accessory structure with a design that is consistent with the primary building. The applicant also states that the variance is necessary due to special

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conditions that are particular to the property. And in particular, they gave the special condition as the size of the property. Although staff do agree that the size of the property is uniquely large for its zoning district and the adjacent properties,

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staff find that the size of the property does not prohibit compliance with the zoning ordinance. For this case, if the applicant, for example, were to construct a detached garage that is at or under 948 square ft, they would still

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be able to install two additional accessory structures, neither of which exceed 200 square ft. This avenue would also provide a way to have even more square footage of storage space than originally requested.

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Public hearing notice. The public hearing notice was published in the Minnesota Star Tribune on May 25th of this year. Notice was also mailed to all property owners within 350 ft of the subject site. Prior to tonight, staff

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received no public comments. This leads to the staff recommendation. Per the city code and Minnesota state statutes, the project must meet all of the criteria in order for the city to grant a requested variance, staff find

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that the project meets many of the criteria. However, the application does not establish that there are practical difficulties in complying with the zoning ordinance. Although the size of the lot is large for its zoning district, the size does

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not prohibit compliance with the ordinance. And as mentioned prior, um, a hypothetical is that the applicant could construct a maximum of 948 square ft of a detached garage and up to two additional accessory structures that are

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200 ft² or less. Um, that would provide roughly 1,348 ft of storage space versus the 1,200 square ft requested. Because of this, staff are obligated to recommend that the planning commission

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make a motion to recommend city council approval of the attached resolution in the packet denying a variance application for the property at 2130 Cowan Place East. And at this time, we can open it up for

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questions from the planning commission. Um, and if the applicant representatives would like to add or present anything else, they are also welcome to do so. questions. Nope. >> Okay. It's a pretty quiet group. >> I'm still looking at things, but

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Well, with that, um, >> yeah, we could definitely that if the applicant has something to further to share, um, that's fine. Otherwise, we open the public hearing. I know what I want.

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>> Mhm. Okay. In that case, um I will open the public hearing at 6:45. And if there is someone from the public that wants to speak

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or if you're all representing the applicant and you don't have anything further, >> neighbors here. Yeah. >> You want to share something? Okay. >> Um, not if there Yeah, if there's not

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any official >> Yeah, I think that's appropriate. Um and we'll close the public hearing in that case um at 6:46. Well, considering that um variances are pretty

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specifically addressed u from a statutory standpoint, um there's not there's not a whole lot of question I don't think about where we go with this. Um if there's not any questions,

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then I would I would seek a motion to um prepare the resolution with the finding effect consistent with the denial of the variance as as stated by by staff unless there's something further.

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>> I just had one question for you. Did could you just comment on the what they were talking about is what would actually be allowable the smaller detached garage and then the two separate 200 square ft. Could you just

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comment on why that wouldn't be feasible for what you're looking for? >> I think I'd like to keep everything under just one rather than >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. That's the only question I had.

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So, um, anyone want to make the motion as presented as recommended by staff? >> I'll make the motion. >> Motion from Commissioner Weise. Uh, is there a second?

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>> I'll second that. Second from Commissioner Sardo. Um, >> any further discussion? >> No further discussion, I'm assuming. >> What What is the motion? Motion is

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uh staff to prepare a resolution with finding a fact consistent with the denial of the variance request using the words specifically in stated in the agenda in the packet. So it would go before council following

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our recommendation. That being the case, um, if there's no further discussion, >> I guess I am just curious as staff have have you looked at all the the different options to see if there is some other way of being able to to do this?

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I'm not talking about necessarily a variance, but like is there uh you know considering the size of the lot and that type of thing, could it be divided and allowed this kind of thing to happen? >> There definitely would be the opportunity for the lot to be divided,

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but um city code does not allow an accessory structure to be the only thing. >> True. Okay. >> Thank you. Well, that being the case, um I guess I would ask for a vote. All in favor of the motion say I.

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>> I. >> I. >> All right, that's unanimous. And again, this will go to the city council probably on June 16th. They'll make the final decision. This is a recommendation.

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Okay, we have another public hearing for the zoning ordinance text amendment on accessory dwelling units. Um, and this was discussed two months

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ago, correct? >> That's when this started. Yes. >> Yeah. >> As the commissioner recalls, as the chair reminded us at the blank commission meeting on April 2nd of this year, we had the commissioner review the first request for a conditional use

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permit for an accessory dwelling unit. In fact, it was the property right next to the one we just were looking at, the large attached garage. And they also wanted to have an oversized ADU compared to what the code would

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allow all enclosed in their existing attached garage. And we we we the commission spent some good time working on that at that meeting and the council did as well. In the end, the council or excuse me, the plan

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commission directed staff to look at the ADU regulations in the zoning arts and provide recommendations for potential changes to uh update them to be maybe more accommodating to what's currently happening.

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So, what's proposed for you this evening is an ordinance amendment that clarifies the definition of accessory dwelling unit. Amends the maximum size of an attached accessory dwelling unit to 40% of the floor area of the dwelling unit

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and the maximum size uh with when it's in a detached accessory dwelling of 1,00 square ft. also added some other language clarifying utility connections and the ownership

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>> was 1,00 square feet what we had talked about. I couldn't remember that number and I didn't have a chance to look at back at meeting minutes. >> The 1,00 gets into when it's a detached. >> Um, and I'll I'll show you that in a second

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here, Patrick. >> So, the first screen here uh there's words underlined and deleted but clarified that ADU has to meet current requirement or the correct

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requirements the state building code uh that it could be an existing or newly constructed home or in an addition to a home but that the ADU has to be fully separated from the principal dwelling by means of a wall or a floor and have a

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separate entrance And although we do I'm recommending they could have a door between the units if they wish doesn't have to be clarified that an ADU can also can be a freestanding structure on the same

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property as a principal dwelling or be located within or attached to a detached garage. That's where the thousand square feet comes in because that's our right now the maximum size of a detached garage.

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and added a phrase there that North St. Paul does not consider campers, recreational vehicles, trailers, or other temporary structures to be ADUs. And then in section two here in the middle, we I'm proposing

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to change the maximum size to 40% of the floor area of the home. I reviewed several different ordinances from other cities in the area. Some went 1,000 square feet, 900 square feet like we had. Others gave it a little more

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flexibility with the percentage. And I thought that will work better in North St. Paul and that will work very well for the applicant that we heard in April. And and so the larger the home, then the larger

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uh up to 40% of the floor area could be in an accessory dwelling unit. Clarified in E below there that again they can be up to 1,000 square ft in a detached building because that's the maximum size we allow for a detached

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building. Not sure why it was 900 ft, but that was really not very consistent. And then adding I and J on this slide to the existing ordinance that the ADU must be connected

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to municipal sanitary sewer and water and that those connections must be run through the principal dwelling unless otherwise approved by the public works director. I don't foresee a case where we'd want a second set of utility

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services running on the same lot for an ADU. And then also that owners may not sell accessory dwelling unit separately or independently from the principal dwelling or create a separate tax parcel and all stays as one property.

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Somebody make a crazy idea and try to do a lot split or something >> after the fact, >> right? which were most lots wouldn't be large enough to do that anyways. >> So that's kind of a built-in suspender

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coverage there. So those are the main changes that we're proposing in the ordinance and I'll take questions. >> Would would uh point J here may just be recency that I'm talking

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about this, but I'm curious if the impetus for that is because the sanitary like the sewer and water would be tied into the main structure. You wouldn't want to split it into a separate parcel. >> That's that is part of it. Yes, for

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sure. But let's say you had a 10,000 foot lot. You wouldn't want the main house on 8,000 ft² or 7,000 ft and somebody try to create a 3,000t lot for the ADU. It's all going to stay as one large

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property. It feels like it would be an issue for small lots, but if someone had a large lot and built an ADU on it and wanted to split them, if they met the zoning requirements, >> but then they're back to the utility services >> and then then what you would what they

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would need to do is seek a division of the lot prior to construction of what would be >> Yeah. >> a second residence essentially, >> right? Or Yeah. You subdivide the lot prior to

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the construction. >> Yeah. >> And then then it would be separate utilities, etc., etc. to the alternative to the second lot. Right. If I'm understanding that correctly, that would remove some flexibility from

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folks who inherited a lot with an ADU and didn't want it. And and by inherited, I mean like >> they bought it. They may have bought it. Not not that they uh physically or traditionally inherited the lot, but

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that >> Yeah, I >> I'm trying to think of potential problems that point J solves that we couldn't solve just through saying like it would have to meet

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zoning code in order to subdivide it. >> And it would anyways. Yeah, that because there's other parts of the subdivision code that get into >> minimum lot sizes and processes for dividing a property and that kind of thing. >> I think it in my my thought with that,

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it's more when we do a handout or do information on edus, we have all these rules in one place and if people ask >> Yeah. If they ever think, well, in the future I might want to split this off, then they should know upfront that no,

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it's >> they would. Yeah. And then I would ask the question, let's say for instance, you had an ADU. You built it. It was a separate dwelling, separate building, separate structure, whatever. Um,

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it was served by the utilities of the existing primary structure. Mhm. >> And somebody, like you say, acquired it. >> Sure. >> And said, "Boy, I'd really like to subdivide this and sell off that second structure."

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They probably would it be possible to do that. If they divided the utilities and said, "Okay, we'll modify the utilities. We'll serve this structure separately as part of our subdivision."

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>> Yes. If all the other >> if all the other requirements are met >> then >> lot size etc etc >> setbacks >> lot coverage setbacks all the rest >> I just don't don't want someone coming in here requesting a a variance to subdivide

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their lot uh and us saying well you did get the property this way so you you >> Yeah well I mean there you do make a choice when you acquire a piece of property Yeah, >> you know, you

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you choose it, right? So, you can't buy a piece of property and say, "Oh, man, you guys are hindering me." >> Well, you bought it that way, you know? So, I I guess I was trying to figure out is are there alternatives and you can

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you can hypothetical anything. >> Yes. >> And you know that if you write this a certain way, there will be somebody that'll come up with some other idea. You're just you're the pro Ken and I'm I'm curious why why we would put in Jay like what problem does that solve?

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>> I don't >> members of the commission I don't know that solves a problem. I view it more of as a notification for anybody, >> but keep it in mind. You're probably not going to be well, you won't be able to do this. >> Correct.

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>> I just worry that it would, >> you know, disadvantage folks who would be able to do it >> unnecessarily. Well, if the other requirements are met such that you know it's a common s sewer and water that

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kind of a thing then it's a rational addition to say then you can't sell that unit separately. >> Yeah. >> You know that that piece of property separately. So it it makes sense. Um I

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like like I said, you could probably come up with some kind of hypothetical that would be somebody wants to do something different in which case they're going to have to explore their alternatives and you know if they if it's a large enough lot and the ADU is large enough and

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everything else works they they can apply for lot division minor subdivision >> as part of that process to see well assuming everything else Okay. It'll be okay. Contingent on you now

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changing the sewer and water lines. >> Mhm. >> You add in new ones, create a separate with this new separate lot. >> Mhm. >> A new billing address, the whole thing, >> but then it's no longer an ADU, right?

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>> It's not accessory dwelling unit, right? >> That's supposed to be subsordinate, >> right? So then it changes it from an ADU to just a separate property with a primary structure. As long as that >> as long as all the com conditions are met >> because we have minimum house size of 6 or 700 square f feet. Y

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>> if it's a 300T ADU then they wouldn't meet that >> I I mean it seems logical. >> Yeah, I've presented it. >> Yes, we could come up with some variables.

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>> You said it well. We write ordinances all the time and then then two years from now, oh wow, we didn't think of that. Well, and and I think we've spoken about this before that um if if the city

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has not typically seen, you know, repeated variance requests and things like that, then your ordinance is pretty good. You know, if people keep coming before us and saying, "Hey, we need a variance for this and it's the same thing."

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>> Yeah. Then you look >> three times a year. Then you start looking at it and saying okay what should we change? >> Correct. >> So >> I just had one question about uh what is it D2 where um I think the

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40% of the floor area makes a lot of sense and I like that. um is and I'm just sort of thinking here I there may be an issue why this doesn't work but um if we would say with a maximum size of 40% of the floor area of the principal

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dwelling or 900 square ft whichever is more is that in because I'm just thinking like if you know if somebody has a house that they could have had a 900 ft ADU but now because of this because their house is

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smaller or they're actually limited now to less than that. >> I don't know. I don't know if it's really a problem, but it just I guess I mean, you know, my house probably would fit into this where

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>> But wouldn't it be more likely in a case like that they'd be worried about meeting the minimum of 300 square feet if it's that small of a house? >> Not if it was a detached ADU. Like if I had a Right. Then that can be up to a thousand square feet with the proposed ordinance.

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>> Yeah, that's true. Oh, you're right. >> An e right below there. >> Yeah, this is for the >> right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Sorry, I I wasn't seeing the the differentiation between the two. So I Yeah, I guess that does make sense. And and for the

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inquisitive minds, I checked the 40% with the uh applicant that we had on hallway and that would make theirs work. >> Okay. >> I made I made sure to if we're Yes. >> make it large enough. >> We're not writing code specific. Of

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course. >> No. >> So are we being clear? So we've got the detached accessory dwelling unit freeing structure blah blah blah 300 ft maximum size of 1,000.

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So that specifically calls out on E specifically call out to E the detached. But when we're talking about the 40% where do we >> that's in D which is above it. >> Yeah in the other page there

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>> attached. There it is. Okay. It's on the other page. Okay, understood. >> Yeah, I I I like that solution. I think that's pretty clean and works well.

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>> So, we haven't come up with anything to change with regard to what's proposed, the way it sounds. So, um, if someone is ready to make a motion to >> actually have one question as I'm thinking through this, uh, would this

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open a door to somebody buying something like a church building or or an old school or something and then dividing it into auxiliary dwelling units? Technically >> only one. >> That would become a multiple family

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apartment. >> Okay. All right. >> Yeah. Because this specifically says no more than one. >> No more than Okay. I'm sorry I missed that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh I'm curious about, you know, and maybe saving us a hassle

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later. Point E. Why would we set a hard limit at a thousand square feet instead of a percentage of the square footage of the main structure or a percentage or like a

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percentage of the lot like tie it to the lot size somehow. The thought with that is I'm sure when it was written just like their garage application we just had >> if he had the thousand square foot garage which he could build. >> Sure. and then wanted to put a second

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floor on it and make that the ADU that could be up to a th00and square feet. Why they had it at 900 when the code said you could have a th00and square foot detached garage I don't know. >> Yeah. >> So that thousand is consistent with the

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limits of a detached accessory building. So, >> you're saying it's a bigger conversation because it's it's about secondary structures, not just ad use. >> Yeah, it's it can get complicated. It really

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can. Um, and I think about properties that I see, I walk past or whatever. We have one right across the street from where we live that was in fact built as a garage with an ADU above. And

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you know, it's perfectly makes sense. I don't know exactly if they had to run through any kind of hoop jumping to make that happen. But um and there are a couple of other properties that I think of that have multiple structures on them. There are large lots, there's

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space, and there it just like I say, you can make the rules and then somebody's going to figure out some way that they want to do it differently and we can't necessarily anticipate that

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unfortunately. But on on E, my thought with that is >> if you have an a thousand square foot garage right now, detach, you want to convert part of it or put on a second

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floor into an ADU. Right now, the coach says you, well, you can only do 900 square feet. >> Yeah. >> The walls don't line up. It's just >> Yeah. >> kind of. >> This is a kind of adjustment. >> Pardon my >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's just to make that

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consistent was the thought. >> Okay. Um I was thinking about the fact that oh, officially we have to do a public hearing. So, we'll open the public hearing at 7:10 and 23 seconds. And since there's no public here,

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we'll wait and see if somebody rushes in. I hear the thunder and heard coming right and and with that let's close the public hearing at 7-Eleven since there's no public to speak. Um, and I think we've had our discussion.

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Um, I would entertain a motion to um recommend to council to approve this ordinance change as presented. Also moved from

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Commissioner Muick. Second. >> I'll second. >> Second from Commissioner Weise. All in favor say I. I. >> I. Okay, we are done. Um, Chris, do you need any kind of record that we had the public hearing beyond the

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meeting minutes? You don't need anything written in that regard. Your clerk education didn't just bring up something new. Oh, >> the one thing we did find out is that the minutes are supposed to be signed. >> Yeah, and they are.

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You'll get that afterwards >> or I'll pick it up. >> Okay. >> And I'm trying to smile more for my wife. >> She never watches the No, she never watches these. Are you kidding? She's got important things to do. >> I can see your wife.

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>> No, she saw she saw a picture of me and I was I was, you know, kind of doing one of these sort of things with my computer and she said, "Wait a minute." All right. Um, we're off to uh comprehensive plan update

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>> for the commissioners have been around since I've been around. We've been talking about the >> Thanks, Chris. Land update. >> Uh, little background for those who haven't been on the commission's law like Pete and Veto. The city has a comprehensive plan. We

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have one that was adopted almost 10 years ago. And the Met Council says any jurisdiction in the Twin Cities, 7ount area, you have to amend that and update it every 10 years. We are just starting that update process now. It has to be

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completed by October of or September of 2028, which sounds like a long time away, but really isn't. >> Eight months a month. >> Yeah. So I with some of the meetings the recent meetings on and off we've had

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some discussion about what is a comprehensive plan what does it do I am not going to bore you with all that there's a lot of good reading there but really that what I wanted to focus on tonight I'm going to do a little curveball on you u is in the current

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plan I'm going to get there in chapter 2 I included that in the printed packet materials and in your email or yeah in your packet. Uh the current comprehensive plan outlaw it's outlines the vision and goals and

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decisions for the city kind of the basis of what are we going to do and why are we going to do it and where do we want the city to go and that was again 10 years ago. So my question to the commission and I've include these in the packet is really

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first of all are these statements that are in the current plan still relevant and if they are great we're not going to reinvent them. If they need some reinventing or tweaking, we'll tackle that as we go through the

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process. But this becomes the basis of further decisions. So the current vision is North St. Paul is your favorite small town. We promote community stewardship through an involved and informed citizenry.

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We preserve neighborhood value with diverse and maintain housing and active neighbors. The city engages in creative placemaking that fosters an environment of economic and employment opportunity. North St. Paul builds systems that

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connect people to places and promote active lifestyles. A lot of visionary statements there in one big vision statement. That's kind of a mouthful. Um, so I'll stop with that. Is do all of

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those or parts of those all sound relevant now for the next 10 years as we start developing the comprehensive plan update?

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That's question one. When I read this, I wasn't sure what creative placemaking meant. >> Architects, they could tell you all about it. >> You You want to try that, Andrew? Well,

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>> it's the fancy way I think of saying that uh you are trying to create interesting spaces that are um of the context of the city and you're not just replicating the

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same thing over and over and over again like a you know same style of house 10 times in a row or something like that. Um, >> but it could also mean certain parks, certain open spaces, >> places to gather.

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>> I think in North St. Paul, the probably the most relevant one is downtown and 7th Avenue and how that's been redone. >> Mhm. Uh the idea is I think if it's creative and interesting enough it'll draw people in and either to visit

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or a place to gather either formally or informally. >> Right. So yeah, it's a little bit of word salad, but that's our that's our existing one and that was what I'm sure

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the commission and all the various commissions and the council ultimately adopted. Mhm. Um, yeah. I think I mean I I think to me that sentence is the one sentence that I think we should keep something in

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there to that effect, but all the other sentences are pretty um clear with like non uh with words that you that are what am I trying to say? Creative is a sort of a ambiguous word, right? I mean, it could

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mean a lot of things to a lot of people. So, and I think all the other parts of the vision statement don't have ambiguous words in it. It's pretty clear. >> So, I guess yeah, I if generally I think it all still makes sense, but maybe just finding another

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way to word that statement about the creative placemaking I think was my only thought on the vision statement. I I agree. If I was encouraging you to tell the game to that is that what are they going to do?

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>> Yeah. Nobody's gonna I mean it could mean different thing to every one of us here, right? So >> I think the the sentence North St. Paul is your favorite small town is presumptive and I find that charming.

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>> I I like it. Well, >> that's the first time I've heard presumptive and charming. Usually those are opposites >> and and again this is just to kick off the discussion. We're not final decisions tonight. It's just to >> get the brains

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>> Yep. >> thinking. >> Remind me when were the community cafes done or have they been done recently or was this >> this was 10 years ago and >> Okay. I was going to say because it looked like some of the things that they're talking about we've kind of done, but >> I know it's not always branded properly

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for people to understand what's happened either. >> And I think what we've talked about several months ago when we were first brought this to light that we need to be working on this, we talked about whether that that was a fairly comprehensive

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effort. Mhm. >> We had consultants involved etc etc and we talked about do we need to go through that much effort this time and I think the general consensus was we probably don't need to. >> That leads me right to my next question. >> See

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>> I knew there was a transition that was happening there. >> You um >> one of the things that typically is done in almost every comprehensive plan update is community engagement. Mhm. >> How do you get the neighbors, the

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residents, the business owners to give comments, to give their input into a comprehensive plan? Most of them hear that and they their eyes glaze over and they what the heck we >> Yeah. They don't want to read this thing. >> No, it's blah blah blah.

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So, what they they did the the cafe things the last time I wasn't here, but read about them. Uh before we go down that road further, the good news is the mech council and their

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infinite wisdom for many of the jurisdictions in the Twin Cities area are offering grants to help pay for the cost of consultants and North St. Paul's eligible for $40,000. H

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>> the bad news is my early estimate for updating our comprehensive plan is $110,000. >> So there still would be a $70,000 cost if we use a consultant. And I really think we need to because I don't know

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that if I had nothing else to do and I just had to do this. >> That's kind of where I was going with it. Yeah. >> Do it in spare time. H >> so and with the consultant I it would

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probably be WSB because they do our all our engineering and so they know half of the comp plan includes sewer water storm water. >> They know all those things anyway. Why would we bring in another consultant? >> But they have planners too and they do

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comprehensive langes plants and like this. That's where I got the cost estimate as their prepared one for another one of their local cities. They as part of their proposal to that city, I was just reading through it in the last couple days, had at least two

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sessions of community engagement. Uh so I was talking to Ava today about that. How how might we best do that? And so timeline, I'm thinking because of the budget and the grant, we

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would if it all falls in place, we would engage WSB to start on this in the beginning of 2027 when the new budget kicks in. >> Mhm. >> Take us through October, September of 28. I'm sure we can get it done. And and there are incentives to make sure it

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gets done early because you may not get all your grant money if you don't do it on time. >> Yeah. And I would get in trouble, I think, if we didn't successfully do that. But in that proposal, they had two um sessions for community engagement.

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One they proposed would be a popup, and this was at a park in this other city. And talking to Ava about it, I think if the timing worked out, if we could do a popup at a car show, >> Yeah.

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That would be a a place where you get a lot of people even put eyes on now. Maybe they don't care, >> but that would be a thing. Uh maybe we do an open house popup kind of thing

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in May at say Casey Lake Park. So we we're spread out we're spread out both on time >> because the car shows won't start till June. And if we start this process in January, you want the popups and the community

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engagement sooner than later so you get the feedback and start building off that. So those are a couple ideas I just kicked around today. So a for the commission, this is my sidebar that detour. Do you think the community engagement will be important even though there was

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a lot done the last time? And secondly, do you like those ideas for how to do it? I would recommend that we possibly push them for three community engagements. See if we can get them to do that. Uh but at least two community

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engagements and an online engagement to allow people to uh you know give them like a month online to submit ideas and that type of thing. We could send out notices in like the utility bills or something like that to let them know about that. Uh, I do like the idea of

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something at uh either like Casey Lake or or Housy Park, but I suppose Casey Lake you get that side of town. >> Well, and you also have a nice interior space, so if you your weather isn't cooperative, >> uh, and then something at the car show

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or else the parade. >> Uh, the only thing I would think about the car show is we would get a lot more people from out of the area. But on the other hand, that could also be a selling point because, you know, if we ask them to identify whether they were uh North

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St. Paul residents or people from outside the area, we might be able to use that to uh kind of see how do people who don't live in North St. Paul view the community. And that could help us give some structure as to

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encouraging uh you know, people to come to North St. Paul other than the car show. So I definitely like those ideas. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Agree. >> I agree. >> And I think three might be a good idea. I think I think the community engagement

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is important at the very least to present that we are making the effort as a as a community. >> Okay. Well, the other thing too is that it's, you know, this community engagement dates back 10 years now and, >> you know, given all of the things that

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have changed, >> uh, you know, politics, internet, all the various malarkey that's gone on in the last 10 years, you know, the people's opinions and thoughts and desires are probably going to have

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changed to some degree. some there's a baseline out there that doesn't change, but you know, we're looking for more than just that common baseline >> is um is the council looking at this as far as their budget planning.

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>> Just put it in I had proposed my budget. It was due to due tomorrow and I included money in it. >> Okay. >> Now, >> Dan, the finance director, thinks >> he he'll find the money for it. He understands it. I haven't had to sit down with the city manager yet on it

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because I just this is all coming together this week because of the budget and then the information I was able to gather about. So our in and in in concept our consultant with regard to the community engagement, our consultant

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would would work to they'd probably look at the previous look at that and say, "Okay, how do we modify the questions we ask people or >> and they do community engagement all around?" >> They do it all the time. Yeah.

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>> Yeah. And yes, and I would hope we would as a staff at least be part of giving input of what kind of questions or what kind of information we trying to glean >> from the community engagement. Well, and I'm I'm interested in

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I think about things like some of the devel recent more recent developments in in the downtown um and some of the negative comments that were made when those developments were proposed. >> And I'd be really interested to hear

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what people think now. >> Yeah, >> they're there. They've been there for a while >> and big change. What do you think? You know, I'd be interested in that kind of opinion, too. >> Not just the future looking, but hey, here's what we were here's what we've

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been doing. How do we feel about this? >> How do we do? >> Yeah. You know, the only other thing I would suggest, and I I do understand, and I I think WSB would do a great job, but I would also suggest that there be

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some consideration to just having WSB provide the technical stuff and going to an outside consultant agency that specializes in community engagement. Uh it might be that WSB's

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cost would be more expensive uh because they have to devote more expensive people to community engagement than an outside community engagement specialist would be. I don't know that that's the case and I see a lot of good

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sense in using WSB for everything, but I just think it might be worth checking out. If nothing else, it might give WSB a reason to hold their cost line down a little bit. >> What I've been doing is uh asking people

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what would make North St. Paul a better city. And I know a lot of people at church that live in North St. Paul. I live in in the Sentinel apartments. There's 80ome other people there. And um and I know some people who work in North

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St. Paul. So I've had a a broad experience. What I found very interesting is uh there's a lot of ideas, suggestions, complaints. Half of them have to do with kids riding too fast on the sidewalk >> and half of them will be valuable in the

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sense that we need more retail >> and and I think it would be necessary to have uh somebody a consultant to to weed out the and control the discussions. >> Yeah. >> It's interesting. It's interesting how

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over the years there have been comments all all over the place. I' I hear things about, you know, we should have more restaurants, we should have a nice coffee shop, this, that, the other thing. And and people look to the city to

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do that somehow. Well, you we don't have control over what somebody chooses to do for opening a business. So we can encourage it in some ways but we can't I mean unless the city says we as a city are going to open

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a coffee shop we kind of wait for the right entity to come along you know and >> the incentives are there right >> you have to have yeah it's so it's creating the incentives and and I think I'm I think there have been some really nice moves in that regard and there is a

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nice coffee shop downtown and there's a bakery >> and there's Nice restaurant. >> I went by there the other day and they were closed up at 12:30. >> No, they close pretty early. >> Yeah, they run out of product. >> They run out of product. >> Okay. >> Yeah, >> I think >> cuz I was going to order my birthday cake down.

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>> No, you you have to go in the morning. >> I think sometimes they're closed on Mondays or Tuesdays, too. >> Uh I think that might be true. >> Mondays, >> might be true. >> Well, that's good. I'm glad they're still there. >> But there are there are those kinds of things. The coffee shop's beautiful. I've been there quite a few times. It's

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not my usual stop, but you know, go get some candy and some tea or something like that, you know. >> And Ken, I don't know whether it would be of any help, but uh I'd be happy to

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volunteer some ideas about how we can reach out to the public. Uh when I was working at uh with the Council of Governments at Texas A&M, uh we did a transportation outreach and we involved like the local churches, the public

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school systems. We sent out flyers with the kids and we had about uh eight or 10 different directions that we were going, including going on like morning TV shows, going on the Spanish radio stations, that type of thing to reach out to people to let them know what we

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were doing. And I'd be glad to brainstorm or even help with some of the activities if it you know if it would be of a help to you. >> It it has to get marketed to get involvement. So >> and we we have Ava too who would be a

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big part of that. >> Yeah. >> Yep. Yes. >> Absolutely. >> So back to the vision. So that was sidebar but thank you for all that. The vision mostly good. >> The engaging in placemaking is Yeah, that it'll need some tweaking

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probably. Okay. >> Then within the comp plan, go try to go through these not too fast. There are several excuse me, goals and and I think I said one of the means we've talked about maybe in the report.

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I think most all these goals are still relevant. Uh there could be others that could be added. I'm not saying that. But if you readly read these, uh, I didn't see I'm going to not read them all, but I didn't see any of the

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goals on these pages 11, 12, and 13 that said, "Oh, boy, we're not going to do that anymore." Well, no. Well, here go community engagement. We want to have >> stewardship through an involved and informed citizenry. Well, this whole process hopefully will show that. And

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we're with Ava's has been with the city now two years as a communications coordinator and that alone having a person dedicated >> that's huge. >> That's yeah that's been very good >> a step towards accomplishing that goal.

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Residential character and neighborhoods. Again there's no we're not breaking any new ground on any of these but they are still good and and relevant. Again, not saying you couldn't find more.

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Uh we Well, here's number three in the middle. Engage in creative placemaking, >> but everyone >> I'd be I I wonder about that first one, progressive image for redevelopment.

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>> Yeah, >> I'm not sure what that means. >> What is a progressive image? >> Uhhuh. I would work on that phraseology. >> These days, progressive can be a dirty word. >> Yes. >> Well, depending on who you're talking

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to. Yeah, >> there are connotations there. Yes, sir. >> That probably weren't as >> prominent in 10 years ago. >> Maybe the looking redevelop would >> Would that be forward thinking or something?

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>> Probably. Yeah. Uh now downtown the bottom there a lot of that has happened through 7th Avenue project and then all the building and reconstruction.

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>> Um so that's >> I think we've met some of the goals. >> Yes. >> Or at least we we're meeting we're coming closer to meeting some of the goals at least >> compared to 10 years ago. transportation. There's really not much we can we can do with that.

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>> I'd still like to see further efforts to connect to the Gateway Trail. >> I think there's opportunities there that we still don't take advantage of. Um, urban design, we have some design standards, especially for the downtown,

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which again, we have our downtown design manual that we sometimes use. Uh, so that's an ongoing thing. Um, but we do have a freeway.

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>> I don't know how the heck we do the bottom one, frankly. How do you make the highway 36 corridor anymore enhanced? >> Yeah, >> it's tough. >> It's enhanced as it's going to get until they build the interchange.

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>> Yeah. Yes. In which case then we'll have people up in arms because they're taking out Dairy Queen, I'm sure. >> Yeah. >> But >> although he might by then be tired of having his parking lot run into by >> Yeah, that's a whole separate problem,

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>> right? Rollovers in the Dairy Queen parking lot. >> So, writing a note, so hang on. There we go. >> What else we got? um >> enhance and expand the parks, trails, and open space system.

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>> I think we've been doing well in that. I I think the >> I don't know if they can be expanded, but we certainly can enhance them. >> I don't know the city's going to be buying more park property. >> I think the park and recck commission does a very fine job. Certainly, >> I do think that it wouldn't have hurt us

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to promote them a little bit more >> just because I was as as I said several months ago, I was shocked when they gave us the the entire park plan and I realized how many parks we have here in the area that I didn't even know about. >> Yeah. Isn't that crazy? >> But, you know,

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>> you stay in your own little bubble and then you >> Yeah, exactly. >> Uh, yes. We want to protect and enhance the lakes, the woods, and wildlife and all that. I I don't think anybody's against that. I

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I struggle with the last one though, become more resilient to climate change through climate change mitigation and adaptation. I How does a city enhance that, promote that?

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I maybe maybe as I I don't even know with the with state and say building codes those um buildings are probably more resilient to climate change and adaptation but

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cars are still going to drive. We don't control the rainfall and storm, you know, storm water runoff. Then that gets into the point above that for uh water quality. >> Mhm. >> Uh yes, we we have a tree planting

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giveaway every spring. Give away 50 trees to help. Those are little things. They're baby steps. I don't know if we're more resilient to climate change or just trying to maybe do our small part as a city to

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lessen it. That'll be something to ponder because I compared to what's happening in the seven county area, what North St. Paul does seems like a drop in the bucket. But if every city does better things, >> right? It's sometimes it's a small

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steps. >> Yes. I think maybe we could, you know, use the term sustainable maybe a little bit more than climate, you know, take climate change out and just because it's >> sustainability is um more broad.

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>> And actionable for individuals and like like there is nothing we can do to control the climate. >> Right. Right. >> I don't know whether we could do it. Well, we can do it. I don't know whether we could get the interest in it, but I'm

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just thinking, you know, we might go to like University of Minnesota, one of the grad schools or the undergrad schools, and say, you know, we've got, we're looking for ideas. Why don't you make this a class project? You know, what can your class think of that could help a

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small community in Minnesota that could be replicated elsewhere? >> Be more be more climate and sustainableminded. Now, like I say, I don't know whether we could get the attention of the school or not, but then again, we've got a lot of colleges in the area. >> Yeah. >> So,

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>> then again, I think about years ago when we did the green streets study and put put a a plan together and it's been quite invisible since then. >> Is that with doing rain curtains and

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>> Yeah, those kind of things, narrowing pavement. there's been some action taken. Um I have I have a separate story that I won't go into, but so that's our discussion. That's what I have for discussion tonight. So I I appreciate the feedback on community

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engagement. That sounds like >> uh positive and I got a few ideas on the vision and goals. And the good news is if we turn this over and I hope to a consultant we can start

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off with some of these points get the hit the ground running. >> Yeah. >> Because we've done some of the basic lake work at this point. >> Yeah. >> Sounds good. Is there any other comments before we >> The only the only thing and I don't

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think WSB would do this just as long as we don't get a consultant in that wants to give us a stock plan because as I've said before as one of the people that reviews those city uh plans for uh for Mindot there are a number of smaller

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cities out there that send the exact same plan in and they just substitute the name of the town and it's like the third time you're reading it it's I've seen this before. A big time you're greeting it. You know, >> I'm pretty confident they'll definitely

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tailor it and and >> what I'm putting I'm starting to write the proposal to send to them. What we're looking for >> is uh I will have final editing authority. >> Good. >> To make sure it's, you know, after all

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everybody's input and everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, what we've had before definitely is much better than what I've seen a number of communities submit. So, you know, >> I think did WSB did the last one, didn't they? >> Well, see, >> I don't recall. >> That's the frustrating thing for me. My

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copy jumps into chapter one. There's no acknowledgements. There's no written. There's no even table of contents. It just chapter one. >> Huh. >> So, if I went to look for it online, that's what I'd find. >> What? Well, the Wow, that council should

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have a file on it. >> That's crazy. >> The one I I could here I can Let me pull it up for you. >> No, I believe you. >> Yeah. Don't disbelieve either. >> It's It's frankly kind of irritating because who the heck does that

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>> Yeah, there's no title page. >> So, here's >> They probably just took each chapter as a PDF. >> Well, here's the cover. >> Forgot. Mhm. >> And we go right into chapter one, >> intro and planning history.

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>> So, usually there's an acknowledgement. Thank you to the city council, the pl commission, the staff who worked on this and it would say prepared by >> Yeah. Right. >> I got nothing. So, I >> Well, you could ask them if they did it and then you can reprimand them.

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>> They seem to the staff I've talked to there or emailed with seem to think they did. And >> you did double check the very last page just to make sure. >> I did. That's >> okay. >> That's funny. >> Because I mean our planner was from WSB

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for a long time, right? >> Yeah. Well, >> they were a consultant with So, >> yeah, there were several that went through Aaron and Brandy and >> Yeah. >> But anyway, so that's what I had on that. That's Thank you all. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Thank you. And I wanted to say

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thank you for the back page with the information about the housing unit since I requested that myself and I really do appreciate the city staff taking the time to do that >> and we'll have >> it is interesting to me. So >> we'll have to have that for the comp plan update anyway.

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>> Yeah, >> good thing to do. >> That's all I have on that, Mr. Chair. And if you want, we can move on to reports. >> Reports. Pete, you have anything? >> I don't I do not. >> Uh, okay.

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>> I have nothing at this point. >> I have >> no reports for me. >> All right. The only thing I will share with you just because and I I can't put it on the screen, but I would if I could, but what if you I don't know if

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you recall, but at the last meeting, we talked about cleanup day >> and the various cleanup things. My impression is the city garage sale was really good. Certainly was great at our house, but that's a whole separate story. >> Did you get rid of stuff?

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>> We had one thing we were selling. >> Oh, >> Legos. >> Oh. >> Had a really good day. >> Wow. >> Yeah, we have cleaned out our house of Legos. >> Didn't you save them for the grandkids? >> Well, there are certain things we saved.

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We there are certain sets that our kids said, "Do not sell that." You know, there were a couple of them I wasn't going to sell and they went somebody was very happy to get them. But on cleanup day, one of the things my wife and I love to do is we go out in Silver Lake

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in the canoe. >> Yep. >> And we clean up. >> Oh, this is the park's cleanup day. >> This was in the lake. >> And that's a view of our canoe. >> Oh my goodness. after >> I saw a picture somewhat like that when I wasn't in a canoe.

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>> We've had we've had more successful like bigger >> bigger collections of garbage. >> Yeah. >> And that was only we did not even the whole coast the whole shoreline of Silver Lake Park.

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>> Wow. But um yeah, the stuff you find one one year a couple years ago, we found a mattress over on the Joy Park side. >> Oh my god. >> And it took I think it took uh I think it took the DNR like a year to get it out of there cuz it was out in the

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water, you know. So >> that would have been very heavy. >> Yes. >> Yeah. We we stuck a stake in there so they would be able to find it. A flag. Said, "Here's where it is." Anyway, >> killed it. and and it's it's a nice opportunity to get out there and see

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your neighbors and which we did. We got to see some neighbors along the along the shoreline and people fishing and stuff like that. But and the wildlife was great this year. Turtles, >> remember right? It was a very nice day.

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>> It was the turtles were everywhere. Um redwing blackbird nests. We probably saw a dozen nests and they were not real happy about us getting too close as you know redwing blackbirds will do. So anyway, just um

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it's encouraging to get out there and just do something that helps the community in general. So thought I would share that. >> Veto, did you have anything? You look like you had the gears were turning. >> Oh, I've got nothing going on up here.

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I I've got three things I'll mention for the benefit of the commission. So on May 9th at Saturday morning, we had the cleanup day where you can bring your stuff to public works. >> If you remember this year, we made some changes because >> before that it had become a cluster and

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it was too crowded. And so we were charging for vehicles and trailers based on the size. And we limited the size of the vehicles. You couldn't rent a 24 foot U-Haul box truck, fill it up. We said you could have a pickup or a van and one single

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axle trailer. So, a year ago, I think the count was from 8 to 1 or 7:30 to No, it was supposed to go 8 to 11. I think they started 7:30. Got done about 1 a year ago. They had over 312

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vehicles. >> Wow. >> Just a complete mad house. this year with the new rules and charging. I think we ended up with 74. >> Wow. >> People love their free free free. But >> yeah,

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>> they and we only as and I was out there as best I could hear or was reported, we only had one person complain about having to pay. This is me. Then they left. >> Honestly, that's uh great out of 75. That's >> Yeah. Yeah.

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>> And >> well, and we didn't go there this year because we frankly didn't have a lot. So, >> right. >> So, >> it's a nice feature. >> So, from the city's perspective, that was a success. So, related to that, uh,

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just on Tuesday night, the city council approved a new 5-year contract with Tennis Sanitation to continue the solid waste hauling. We had gone through an RFP process, had seven proposals, reviewed them, compared prices,

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services, had two really solid ones. We brought tennis in and another hauler, and in the end, uh, tennis had the best numbers. We've had good luck with them. We didn't There was no reason, no good reason to

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change. The prices weren't >> Mhm. >> that weren't better at all. But one thing we requested from those two haulers was to have the haulers really sharpen their

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pencil, so to speak, and propose something better for the bulky waste pickup at the curb. And tennis came in and said, "We'll provide six, you can have six large items picked up in a year

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and two appliances picked up a year." >> Wow. >> From your home and don't charge. >> Wow. >> Wow. Now you you still have the availability to call in if you got too much stuff and or you need a dumpster and we have to now work out the logistics of how that's going to be

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tracked and who's going to do that. The city still has to pay the tipping fee, the dumping fee at Newport. And we're hoping with that change there will even be less demand on the cleanup day in the spring. the point

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maybe we don't have to have one. >> And now with the environmental center in Roseville and and even Woodbury Forest Lake there are places to take your electronics >> for free. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes they even have mattress days there where you mattresses and that kind that was another thing. We didn't take

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mattresses this year at cleanup day. >> Yeah. I mean, mattresses, tires, there are certain thing, electronics, there are certain things that are hard to >> unload easily, right, >> without paying for it. And people, like you said, they like free. >> So, we'll be getting out if that new

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contract starts September 1st. I'm not sure if the new bulky waste uh availability will start then or start the calendar year into January one, but we'll be getting more information out. >> So, that was very, very successful.

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We're glad that I think staff is kind of relieved that we got tennis again so we don't have to train in a new hauler and >> all that they they that's what they do and they do a very good job for the residents. Lastly, the car shows. I

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don't know if you've been tracking the ongoing stories of the car shows >> a little bit. >> The So, the history cruisers came into the city last fall even or maybe right the first year and said, "We can't do every Friday

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anymore. It's just too much. We're we're getting too old. We don't have enough help. It's a lot of work. So, we're we just want to do every other Friday." and the city and the businesses were a little bit dismayed by that because it's a big draw. And so Brian did some work

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and found another group uh the Invisible Wounds Project out of Forest Lake. They do car shows and so they're going to take over the other Fridays starting this Friday. >> Okay. >> So there will be car shows every Friday through the summer. The Invisible Wounds

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will said they will allow some different model cars. some of the newer ones. I think the history cruisers were what 1964 and older or something. >> 75 and older, I think. But whatever. >> I don't know how Invisible Wounds is going to >> Yeah.

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>> But so if you have a say a really cool 2024 Corvette, you could probably show it there if you that kind of thing. >> Was he asking for donations? They they do have some expenses because and well they have some expenses and

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then they help the invisible wounds project helps veterans and uh >> even police officers and those kind of people withd >> So and I'm sure the donations are to

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help pay the because there's expenses with the city not a lot police time, some of the cleanup costs, porta potty rental, some of those things. That's so that's probably why they're asking for the donations. So, the good news is

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there'll be two car there'll be car shows. It'll be a little different, but hopefully it bring some new energy. >> Yeah. >> To the downtown. >> I I did see something from someone representing History Cruisers saying that they were upset about the city sharing their uh their lists. They said

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proprietary list. Yes, >> it wasn't proprietary. It was the list of vendors that they provided the city. >> Visible wounds wanted that to see if those vendors wanted to work >> other Fridays. It's a public information and we shared the list.

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>> It's Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, that's all I have for >> all I have for reports. Thank you. >> Okay. Thanks, Ken. >> Oh, I lied. I got one more. >> One more. >> Uh, we are in my department, in fact,

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next week, Wednesday, interviewing five people to be an intern for 3 to 6 months. So, we'll have some additional help and we may have them do some of the preliminary research for the comp plan update. >> Good. Excellent.

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>> Get them exposed to local government. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Any zoning parks? >> Mhm. >> Kind of throw them in where? >> Yeah, that's great. >> How many you hoping to get? >> One. Just one. >> Just one. Okay. >> We we had about 30 applicants, narrowed

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it down to five day interview. And uh so probably the next meeting or one of the meetings, we'll bring them to the plane commission and see what kind of fun we have here. >> Yeah, that'd be delightful. who who does the uh cleanup and uh work

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around the plants down on 7th Avenue. >> The city hires one or two uh landscape not landscape architects but forestry people to for the summer. >> Yeah. A bunch of younger folks out there working last week. >> The temporary that's a temporary summer

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help for the public works department. >> So that they're not working for the city. >> Yeah. No, they are. They're they're hired on temporary for the summer for three four months. All right. >> And part of their duties are to clean >> every day and it overlooks uh 7th Avenue and uh there's about six guys and one

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girl out there and she was out working all of them. >> Yep. >> All right. Well, with that, how about a motion to adjurnn? >> Who wants to do that? >> So moved. >> Mr. Maruchini is has so moved. Is there

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a second? >> I'll second. Second from Commissioner Muick. All in favor say I. >> I. >> We adjourn at 7:55.