We're good. All right. That being the case, I will call the meeting to order. This is the plan commission meeting for North St. Paul of March 5th, 2026. Roll call.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Commissioner Sorl here. >> Present. Thank you. Uh, Commissioner Gab >> here. >> Commissioner Bliss >> here. Commissioner Muk >> present. >> Thank you. Oh boy. Pete, you're here.
Would you pronounce your last name again, please? >> Pete Maruchini is here. >> Thank you. And uh Commissioner Alvarez is absent and Commissioner Weise is not here yet, so we'll see if he makes it. >> MIA. >> MIA. Okay.
All right. and our special guests. >> We can adopt an agenda. Yes. And can I get uh motion to adopt the agenda? >> I will make that motion. >> Motion from Commissioner Gadboy. A
second. >> Second that. >> Second from Commissioner Commissioner Sorrow. Okay. Okay. I I thought I would heard both sides at the same time. >> About to but >> you're fighting over it. That's fine. All in favor of adopting the agenda say I. >> I.
>> I. >> We have an agenda. With that, we can introduce our special guest, Jack, our city attorney. >> Yes. Hello, Mr. Chairman and commissioners. My name is Jack
Brooksbank uh and I am the city attorney for the city of North St. Paul. So I represent um the city as a body. Uh I'm at most of the city council meetings and then uh meetings like this sort of on an as needed uh basis. So um you know if
you ever run into something that you feel is is particularly thorny um can let Ken know and we can we can run it up. Um I'm not usually at these meetings but always happy to make an appearance. Uh so tonight uh we have kind of two parts of this. So there's two separate
packets that got out to you. First one I'll be going through covers a whole bunch of stuff. Open meeting law, data practice act, etc. Uh and then um I'm going to try and spend most of the time uh on the second one of that which is specifically the land use um portion of
the evening. Um, particularly in the first part, uh, I'm going to spend a lot of time talking about a bunch of things that you cannot do and ways that you can get in trouble. Um, that's just because I'm a lawyer and it is my job to make sure no one ever has any fun. Uh, I I don't I I really I don't think that you
are breaking any of these rules. I'm not suspicious. Um, I just, you know, it's things only come to my attention when there has been a problem. And so I just want to let you know about some of the potential pitfalls because some of these things are not necessarily intuitive in
how they function. Uh so I just want to make sure that you're all aware of kind of some of the guidelines and some of the um areas where there are consistently issues um just so that you know primarily so that you're protected,
right? You know we don't want um even if you win the lawsuit it's still a giant hassle. And so what we prefer to do is just to not even have one in the first place. Um the other thing I will say um is that this is all you know that I'm not here just to hear myself speak. This
is all um for your education. And so if at any point um something's not clear or you have a question or hypothetical or you want more explanation on something um just jump in. Um, I'll try and and keep up my head up if anyone raises a
hand or else just, you know, cut me off and and let me know if there's any questions and we can stop and and make sure that everyone's getting all the info that they need. Uh, and then also, uh, at the end of this, um, I know I am always walking out the door by the time I come up with the question I actually need answered. U, and again, just shoot
that over to Ken and we'll make sure you get all the answers that you need. Um so with that um I'll kind of get started on uh running through my presentation here. Um so there's a few different kind of uh in the general part of this just kind of
general statutes that apply uh pretty much to everyone in city government kind of generally to everyone in in you know every public official in the state of Minnesota. Um first part of that is the open meeting law. Uh so this is a
um you know it's a transparency law. It's to make sure that the public is aware of and informed about u not only what the commission is thinking about and considering but also what the basis for the decision-m is. And so the
general rule is that any meeting of any public body um must be um there must be a notice in advance uh and it must be open to the public. Now a meeting and a public body those are two kind of defined terms of art. Uh and then again
it's not always intuitive. So a meeting is any collection of a quorum of the body. And so for uh the planning commission there are what seven members and so any four of you in any one place is
considered to be a meeting basically. Um there are some exceptions right there's a sort of a chance meeting or a you know if you're if you're walking down the aisle at the grocery store and you turn the corner and four of you happen to be walking in the same place that's not a violation of the law because that's just
a chance encounter. Um but in general anytime that a quorum of the body uh is together and they are making a decision about city business they are discussing city business or they are obtaining information about city business. So it
is a very broad you know essentially any discussion any um communication about um what you do on the planning commission is going to count as a meeting. The other thing to be wary about is uh
what's called a serial meeting um or serial communication which is if one person emails another person emails another person emails another person even if there's only ever two people on any you know there's a sender and a receiver of the email and that's only
two people so that's not a quorum but if you then forward that to someone and they forward that to someone you know we're looking at the chain generally as to whether there's a quorum or Uh, and so just forwarding an email to someone could technically count as a
meeting. Um, and then you know if you're just foring an email, you probably haven't sent a public notice about that. >> How do you define a core? >> Uh, so uh it can be defined different ways for the planning commission. It's
um more than 50% of the total members. Um, so, uh, right now there are a full seven members. Sometimes, especially on like a planning commission, there might just not be a full number of members and so that number can shift around. Um, but
in general, more than 50, it's the minimum number required to have to do business. So, in in your case, it's four. Now, if four were to go to dinner together, does that constitute a quorum
as long as city and planning business is not discussed? So, two things to say about that. Number one, technically no, there is an exception. If it is a purely social interaction, that does not count.
Number two, we then have the burden to prove that it is a purely social function. and that there was no business whatsoever discussed. Uh and so again, like I mentioned, um
it's best not to have the lawsuit even if we can eventually win the lawsuit. And so my my recommendation is to just try and avoid that to the extent possible. So even for say special events where the planning
commission may want to be on a float together, we better not have more than three members. It's two options. Either don't have more than um three members or again it's a very easy you just email Ken at least three days in advance. Um
let's say four days just to make sure that Ken has enough time to do everything. Um and then we just posted me a notice about it. Uh and so that's usually what we do if the planning commission wants to have a float somewhere or uh attend a groundbreaking ceremony or something like that. Um the
the actual requirement so if it is a meeting um kind of to move on here the actual requirement is that we post a public notice about it. Uh and for a a special meeting you know so this is a regular meeting there's a schedule of regular meetings you can look at that schedule for the rest of the year. So we
just post that at the start of the year for a special meeting which is any other meeting. We just have to post written notice three days in advance. >> Thank you. >> Um one exception that was >> one exception was brought up at the
previous meeting is our holiday parties. That gets a little dicey. It's not a chance encounter. It's a gathering. You would think though that it's pretty clear that they're not talking about city business usually because it's a
holiday party. But if somebody really wants to dig into it and make life difficult that you I think what Jack would tell you is you try to avoid the appearance of even >> putting it on anybody's radar just in case.
Um, yeah, and and it's a good point and again that's sort of what all of these laws are designed for is, you know, it's corruption or the the appearance or possibility of corruption is what we're looking out for. Uh, and it can be
annoying sometimes. You know, I'm not going to sugarcoat that. Um, but it's just kind of that's that is just kind of what the legislature has decided is necessary for government power to be utilized in the best way.
Um, other things that can count as meetings, you know, any other electronic communications. Um, texting can constitute a meeting. Uh, four people leaving a comment on the same Facebook thread could technically constitute a
meeting. Uh and so again, you know, this is the this is the lawyer's advice. This is the um cautious advice. Uh but my advice is always just to, you know, try and keep it as
official as possible, go through the official channels. Um if you see that someone is making a Facebook post, even if it's wrong, um I recommend just letting it ride. um you know or maybe one person can leave a
comment that's just you can come to a planning commission meeting to hear more about that. Um but I I would not get into real discussion of city business. Um that also dovetales in with the next one I'm going to talk about which is the data practices act. Um
I'll I'll get to in a minute um as to just sort of some some more of that. Um the the preview is that if you are texting about city business on your personal phone that those text messages become government data which is discoverable by any member of the public
who asks for it. Um and so it doesn't matter what device it's on or what account it's tied to. It's about what is your role and what is the purpose of the communication. Um just kind of briefly running through
like I mentioned notice requirements. um just post um a notice. Um generally speaking, anytime that there's a question of but are we allowed to do this, just post notice of it. It's pretty easy to do. Um the city's very good at doing it by now. Uh so again,
that that's kind of my advice. Closed meetings. There are some times where um it is possible to have a closed meeting or a private meeting. It has to be for one of a set list of purposes. um you don't disclose what you're talking about in the closed meeting, but you do have to state specifically what
we are what the subject matter is that we're talking about. That is why we're going into a closed meeting. Um generally these are going to be more city council type things like labor negotiations or pending litigation. Um sometimes I've seen planning commissions involved in uh one of the reasons is to
determine the asking price of property purchased or sold. Um, so if the city is buying or selling real property, um, that's something that the planning commission might be involved in. Um, and we would, uh, you know, we'll kind of help you through that if if that comes
up. Um, generally it's not common for the planning commission. Uh, penalties. The one thing I just want to highlight about the penalties here is that uh if there's a finding of an intentional violation, which is that you're trying to get around the open meeting law, um you know, sort of skirt that knowingly.
Um there can be a fine of up to $300 that the city is not allowed to pay for you. And so that would be, you know, your own money that would be on the line there. So again, just play it safe. um anytime you have a question about it, you know that there's no penalty for
posting a notice if you don't have to. Um the only penalty is for if you don't post when you should have. Moving on briefly, data practices act. Um like I mentioned, this is about uh government data. Government data is determined by um who is sending it and
for what purpose. is not determined by what account it is on, what device it is on, anything like that. So again, uh private text messages, private emails, um photos on your phone if you are taking photos of official business, um
you know, call records if you're calling people from your cell phone about official business. That's all public information. Uh and the public can request that information at any point. and we have to go um you know someone from the city has to go reach out and make sure that we have collected all of
the information and that we are then disclosing that to whoever is making the request. Um again just the easiest answer to this is if someone reaches out to you and they say hey we've gotten a data practice act request about everything related to
you know this subdivision or whatever you know do you have anything on your personal devices? Uh, and the easiest possible answer to that is you just say, "No, I have literally nothing on my devices about that." Uh, and so I know, you know, you all have a a city email
address. Um, all of those emails are kept on the city's IT servers and they're searchable by city IT department. So again, just keep everything everything there. Uh, and that's sort of the best repository for it. um happens sometimes you'll have a
if you have a constituent who happens to know you outside of your work on the planning commission you might get an email to a personal email address um if they are asking you a question about government business that is government data what I would recommend there is
that you if you see that come into your personal email address just forward it to your official email address and then respond from the official email address um and then as long as everything is sort of being kept on your official email. Then we don't have to come
searching through your phone. Uh I'll try and get through the rest of them pretty uh pretty quick. Uh conflicts of interest. Um again, for the most part, this is a fairly uh common
sense definition. Um you cannot be making a decision on something that you also are financially involved in. um financially involved in. Again, that is a very kind of broad definition. That can be you. That can be your family
members. Um you know, if it's a a business that you are a partner in, even if it's not the part of the business that you are involved in. Um and again, there's ways around this. And in general um what that looks like is you just
disclose that you have a conflict of interest and then step back from the discussion of that particular item. Um usually what we ask is that uh you know so if someone is coming in and it's um you know your a family member has a
variance request in um you just at the meeting you just say I cannot participate in this because I have a conflict of interest and then for the remainder of that business item we just ask that you go sit in the audience um and then u once that's all done then you're get allowed to come back up. Um
the one important thing to keep in mind about this is that if you are not participating because of a conflict of interest it basically work for quorum purposes it basically works the same as a resignation. So if there are seven people on the commission and two of them
have a conflict of interest you calculate what is a passing vote as if there were only five members because there are two members who can't participate. Um, it has to be a conflict of interest. It has to be can't participate. If it's
just I don't want to participate in this or I'm I'm not comfortable with this application or something like that. Um, an abstain vote counts as a no vote unless you are um conflicted out for some reason.
Uh, gift law again is largely um self-explanatory. Uh, you are government officials. You cannot accept gifts from anyone who um interested person uh is the official language in the statute. Uh it means anyone who um is or who might
be um financially interested in a decision that you are making. Uh and again these definitions are intentionally written to be very broad. Uh and so that's um you know generally speaking unless it's one of the listed exceptions
um you are not allowed to accept gifts because of your role on the planning commission. Obviously this does not apply to um you know your Christmas presents or something like that. Um it's just it you can't give it you can't receive a gift that you wouldn't have
received if you were just a private citizen and not on the commission. um gift is anything of any potential value. There's kind of a dimminimous exception. Um so if you are rece if you're at a you know a um
event, a professional event or something and someone's handing out like pens and stress balls, you can accept a pen or a stress ball. Uh but basically nothing more valuable than I think we usually say about $5. Um and that does include food. Um, so if anyone says, "Hey, can I
buy you dinner so you can listen to my proposal?" Food counts as a gift. And so the answer that you have to say is, "I'm afraid you can't do that." >> But Jack, on that, could they buy their own dinner? >> Uh, >> or does that get dicey because now
you're meeting with someone outside of the plane commission? Yeah, I mean um you know uh other general kind of ethical principles applying um you know don't uh
you don't want to be you never want to be in a position where they're trying someone's trying to kind of recruit you to be an advocate for them. Um, and so I generally, again, my advice would be if someone says, "Hey, can I can I take you on a tour or can I, you know, can we
talk about this plan over dinner?" Um, my recommendation is always that you say, "Uh, no, we should we should hear this as a commission." um that said, it's not necessarily illegal as long as there is, you know, very clearly
um you know, no quid proquo, there's no gifts involved. Um again, just the the caution there is that if someone sees a member of the planning commission out to dinner with a developer,
it might be totally innocent. Um, but if someone is suspicious of that, it can be difficult to prove that it was totally innocent. Uh, and so that's where we start to run into, you know, it's it's not about what happened, it's about what you can prove happened. Uh, and so
again, just really trying to be, you know, cautious, play it safe. >> The whole appearance of >> something or nothing. >> Yes. briefly. Um, Robert's rules of order.
There's some things written there. This is kind of general principles of how to run a meeting. Um, in general, as long as the meeting is running fairly and smoothly, um, I don't think there's a real problem with uh, you know, if you're not strictly following Robert's rules of order.
My my general observation is that if people are fighting about Robert's rules of order, no, they aren't. There's something else going on. Um but uh just in general um the idea is just make sure that everyone can be heard. Uh make sure that everything is
recorded. Um there are certain things uh that must be um there must be a recorded vote uh of what's going on. Uh and so that's generally speaking um anytime that the city is spending money um which
is not necessarily a problem for the planning commission because you don't you aren't generally in the position where you are spending money. Um but things like um you know coming to an official recommendation on do we recommend a variance is approved or denied? Do we recommend a subdivision is
approved or denied? Um just making sure that there is um if somebody wanted to figure out uh you know on this variance how did Pete vote? Um there has to be some record of that. Uh generally
speaking um if it's just you know there's a list of who's present and then we say passes by unanimous vote we trust that people can figure that out. Um >> I do have a question on the gift law
because of my my position. I work for Mandot. So I am often at com conferences and conventions where they may have drawings for business cards. So, you know, if I win something that's, you
know, $50 gift card or something like that from somebody that could possibly be uh a contractor with the city at some point in the future, does that run to follow the gift card of the gift law if it's a, you know, if it's a drawing
that's open to everybody at the conference? >> Yeah, not necessarily. So again, the rule is usually are you receiving this gift because of your position with the city? Um so if you're there as a mindot employee already, we're kind of taking a step back on that. And then if it's a
drawing that's open to everyone, um it's not really a gift, right? That's something that you presumably you paid an entrance fee. Uh and so it's sort of a um you know, that's just kind of part of what you got with your entrance fee as an entrance into that that drawing. uh and so it's not something that is
necessarily being handed to you specifically. >> Thank you. >> Uh want to touch a little briefly just kind of on um kind of the structure of North St. Paul's governance. Uh North St. Paul as a city is a council manager
plan. There's two kind of ways that cities are organized. Um cities either have a city manager or a city administrator. Um so like I mentioned, North St. Paul has a city manager. Basically, a manager is um kind of like the CEO of the city, right? They are
respon directly responsible for kind of all the day-to-day um you know, any any uh spending money that is less than $20,000 um hiring, firing, managing employees, uh the kind of day-to-day business operations goes through the manager. Uh
in an administrator system, um usually the council is much more involved in things. Um, again, it's it's not something that comes up a whole lot for the planning commission. Um, but just it's something to be aware of. You may hear about um, you know, if you're
talking with someone in another city and they're talking about, oh, well, you know, the city council is much more involved in, you know, sort of day-to-day things. Um, it's not necessarily, they're not necessarily doing it wrong. We're not necessarily doing it wrong. Um, that's
just kind of how North St. Paul has been organized. Uh so absolute whistle stop tour on all of those issues. Um >> Jack, can I add in one thing? >> Yes. >> All of what he has talked about so far and going to talk about with land use
and zoning. All those powers and authorities are granted by the state through state statutes, state laws, handed down to the municipalities and local governments, cities and counties and townships
to do these things. So, we as a city, we're not making this stuff up. We're we have to follow the state law. There's occasionally federal law that comes into place, but >> most all this is coming down from the state. And I guess just another point to be
made there about some of this stuff is you might be reading through, you know, the packet, you have a question, you go back and read through it and you go, "This makes no sense. Why is this the rule?" Uh, and unfortunately the best answer I can give you is because it is the rule. Um, you know, sometimes we have kind of a higher level like here's
the logic behind the rule. Um, oftentimes it is literally just the statute says we can do this, the statute says we can't do that. Um, so there's there's a lot of restrictions on how cities spend their money. One of the
things we are allowed to do is we can put on free music concerts. Uh, only if it's free. Why can't we char why can't we do it if we charge money for it? Why can't it be entertainment other than music? Um, no one asked me. Uh, that's just what the statute says. Uh, so, you
know, sometimes it's just sort of it can be a little frustrating. Um, and I I appreciate that. Like I mentioned, um some of these rules, especially with open meeting law, data practice act, it can get annoying. Um but again, it's it's just what we have to do. Um you
know, and this is all done the purpose of all of this is to maintain the public trust in what we're doing here. And so that's just kind of the rules we have to follow. >> Question. You mentioned the city manager manages the city employees, etc. Uh but
he reports to the city council. I'm assuming >> uh he yes he he reports to but does not necessarily need authorization from before taking action. >> Okay. Who does the planning commission report to?
>> Um I believe that would be also the city council um technically. So you are you are public officials. You are not employees of the city. Uh and so you are you are appointed public officers. Um I would
have to double check it is either the mayor or the council as a body um has the power to remove uh individuals from the planning commission um >> and appoint them. Um and so that's
that's how you all ended up here. Uh, and it's sort of the same the same process for removal as for appointment. >> Jack, could you touch on um the conflict of interest a tiny bit more as it relates to financial interest? And is
there a litmus test for general financial interest versus specific financial interest that creates the conflict of interest? >> Yes, of course. That's a great point and a good question. Um, so talking about conflicts of interest, so it's anything
where you have a a financial interest in something. Um, how specific that is can get kind of gray. And so one question is something like um, you know, well, if we're uh, you know, is it something that affects you specifically
or sometimes you might see something come in front of you that is going to affect sort of every resident of North St. Paul? Uh, and you are also residents of North St. call. So that means it's going to affect you. Uh and so you know what what happens in those situations?
There's kind of a balancing test. I I think in the materials there's kind of list out some of those factors as to um whether it constitutes a uh conflict of interest or not. Uh the other um sort of thing that changes the analysis is uh is
the city entering into a contract and is that what the conflict of interest is about or is it a non-contract situation and the rules are less strict for non-contract situations. So, um, if we're hiring somebody to do something,
very strict conflict of interest rules, uh, you know, if we're hiring a contractor or something. Uh, if we're doing something non-contractual, so if we are approving a variance or amending a zoning ordinance, um, the rules are slightly more relaxed. Uh in general um
conflict of interest again financial interest um that can be sort of a direct you know um I stand to gain from this approval. It can be more indirect right I have an ownership interest in a business that is applying for something
and the business might make money. Um, again, it's it can be a little wishy-washy and and individual circumstances specific. Um, but could be an employment relationship, could be an
ownership interest, um, could be a family interest. Um, it goes pretty broadly. Uh, is that kind of what you were getting at? >> Yep. Very much so. Thank you. We have any more questions about the kind of general rules of public office
before we dive into some land use? >> Yeah. Seeing nothing, we will move on to specifically land use planning uh and the kind of the specific duties of this commission. First page here is uh kind of primarily some of the high level legal
authorities, right? So the city has the uh responsibility uh and also the authority to make kind of high-level plans for how it sees the development of the land within its boundaries taking place.
Under that high level plan, we also then have the ability to make some kind of more granular land use rules, setting up what uses are allowed, not allowed, conditionally allowed. Uh, and in general, uh, the overall goal is to kind of try and harmonize
everything. We want everything to be consistent. Um, we don't want one set of rules saying one thing and another set of rules saying a different thing. Uh, and so it's it's a lot of work. It's a lot of materials. I know Ken is going to be talking about comprehensive plan,
which is quite a large project. Um, but that's kind of the overall motivation for what is happening in land use planning. And it's ultimately, you know, really boiling it down to it's trying to prevent uses that will be harmful to neighboring
properties essentially. So, you know, we want we want there to be stores. We want there to be, you know, more commercial or industrial uses. We want people to have places to live. We don't necessarily want all three of those things on the same block. Um, you know,
if there's a, you know, a uh some kind of an industrial business that is uh loud or smelly um or has something that might generate some kind of a health risk. It's giving off a lot of fumes or dust. We don't necessarily want people living
there. And so that's kind of the that's the overall goal of what we're trying to prevent is to just keep everything, you know, in a location where it can do the most good and the least bad. Uh overall, uh kind of your role as the
planning commission, uh there's a few different kind of main things. Uh so planning commission um way back in the day did the first preparation review proposal for a comprehensive high-level plan um that has been adopted. Um but
there is also a periodic review that the comp uh planning commission goes through u to make sure that it's all updated. Um again uh kind of the comprehensive plan that's the the really high level kind of conceptual document of you know we want
there to be kind of a concentrated downtown area uh surrounded by higher density um you know sort of retail businesses and um higher density living. Then we want there to be some areas where it gets into a less dense business
and then we want to put some, you know, uh, larger commerce or industrial businesses and, you know, kind of chunk out the the city like that, but kind of from a very 30,000 foot view of what's going on. Um, but there's still a lot of factors that have to be considered as
part of the comprehensive plan. And so that's why we go through and every um every few years uh which I'm sure Ken will get into the the uh process much more specifically. Uh so I won't I won't make everyone sit through it twice. Um
but so there's a periodic review of that. Um also uh the planning commission uh the primary responsibility of the planning commission is to review land use applications and provide a
recommendation to the city council. Um, so that's going to be things like variances, conditional use permits, um, zoning amendments, uh, which can come up because of something that the commission notices or because it's been something that has been proposed or submitted or
requested by a property owner. Uh and so your job is to sort of, you know, take in all of the information, hear from uh potentially interested parties, um consider the issue really deeply and then come to a recommendation on do you
think this is a good idea or not. Um although generally for all of those things, it then goes to the city council. Um they are not necessarily bound by your recommendation. Uh but having worked with the city council for a decent number of years now, uh they do really respect it, right? they they do
listen and they do um they know that you are kind of the land use experts. Uh and so it is really helpful for them to have the planning commission doing kind of that first level of review. Um anytime that the city buys real
property, I mentioned that that's one of the potential reasons to have a private meeting. Um it's also generally speaking something that requires planning commission input if the city is going to buy property. Um sometimes uh there's a way that the city council can uh make a
twothirds vote to say that this actually doesn't have a planning impact. Um usually things like um for example the city student build housing project uh where the city is just is buying a lot that is zoned for some kind of residence
and is building one of those allowed residences there. Uh we generally find that that doesn't really have a a planning implication. and it's just the city building a house. Um and so usually those don't come before you, but it could potentially. Uh and then uh review of land use
control measures. So that's the kind of the the more specific um you know zoning measures if the city is going to make any kind of zoning change. uh there has to be a public hearing on the proposed change in front of the planning commission and then having heard public
testimony from anyone who's interested uh then the planning commission like I mentioned comes up with a recommendation on what to do and sends it all to the city council. So I've mentioned uh the highlevel um planning document is the comprehensive
plan. the more granular sort of day-to-day requirements uh all come in form of zoning and that's probably the the number one biggest thing that the commission works with is the city's zoning rules. Zoning is just kind of the
the catch-all word for um the city code, city ordinances regulating the use of land kind of into different districts. Um there's a lot of statutes uh that go into this. Um but it you generally start
things like uh the location um any kind of setbacks from property lines, the density of you know the number of units of housing um percentage of you know how much of a lot can be occupied uh what are the
access requirements right what are the parking requirements um and then um you know those sorts of things um again like I mentioned we're trying to make sure that there's not a you know a factory next to a house. Uh if those two things are going to cause
problems with each other. Uh and so that's uh you know kind of the the broad category. Um we have a lot of you know it's a whole chapter of the city code just goes into zoning and land use. So there's a lot of of rules and these get
quite you know particular. Um they're usually you know they're they're construed sort of against the city. Um, so if there's any ambiguity in how they're written, um, that goes in favor of the property owner because we don't want to be overly burdensome. Um,
and the other thing about the zoning ordinances is that they actually have unlike the comprehensive plan which is a high level sort of planning and directional document, the zoning ordinances have a direct effect. Uh now
there are laws that say that the zoning ordinances have to be um consistent with the comprehensive plan. Uh but the comprehensive if someone alleges that they're not, we do go with whatever the zoning
ordinances say. And so sometimes, you know, we will have a zoning ordinance that says, uh, you know, in this district, uh, only, you know, single family housing and someone wants to build an apartment building and they they might say, well, actually, your comprehensive plan says I should be allowed to do this. Uh, and it doesn't
matter. The actual rules of the day what you can build on your property are found in zoning. Uh so that's kind of the primary the primary rules that you will be working with as the planning commission are all the zoning rules. Uh the main way uh
that the city deals with zoning is by setting districts. So we have a zoning map and then we have different designations of you know this is the uh downtown business district. Um and then we have residential districts and commercial districts. uh and you can go
look at a map and you can figure out you know which what a parcel a particular parcel has been zoned for. Uh it's important to note uh uniformity is required within a district. So if you have two properties that are both zoned
R1 or both zoned low density residential um the zoning on those two if the zoning category is the same the uses of those two property also have to be the same. Um, so there is a term that you may hear, it's called spotzoning. Uh, and that is when you amend the zoning rules
but only for one parcel. Uh, and that is generally speaking not allowed. Uh, so uh, if you hear someone talking about spotzoning, um, the other thing people use spot zoning to mean is a thing I don't like. Uh, and
so you you may hear someone again saying, you know, well, that's that's spot zoning. You can't do that. Um, and it it may or may not be, you know, it's uh people have very strong opinions about land use. Uh, and so oftentimes
you will get people who are maybe more enthusiastic than informed. Um, so it's always important, but sometimes they're on to something, right? You know, I don't want to be too dismissive of public concern. Um, you know, obviously some, you know, it's something we have to take seriously.
Um procedurally like I mentioned that's this is kind of mostly where this commission is going to live. Um so uh you have the power to do sort of plans or studies. Uh that can be as simple as asking staff to get you some
information. Um that can be a more formalized process where we you know designate a u subcommittee uh of the planning commission and say okay we're going to send you know U2 or U3 and you're going to report back in three
months with some kind of a you know report on whatever thing we're considering. Um you know uh can be very formal can be not at all formal. Uh and then there's a public hearing. Uh and so that is um
generally speaking uh you know the city will send a notice of a public hearing. We'll we'll mail something to uh usually it's everyone within 350 ft of where the change is going to be taking effect. Uh and then at you know meeting like this uh it will be on the agenda and there
will be an opportunity for everyone to come say their piece. Um Mr. Chairman you have a threeminut timer uh sitting in front of you. We generally um somewhere it's the the display face is sitting to me here. Yeah. Um and so
usually we ask people to try and keep their comments to three minutes or less. We find that usually more than 3 minutes and and it we we tend to hear a lot of the same thing. Um, let's try and keep it moving, but it's an opportunity for anyone who has an
opinion about a proposed zoning change to come speak their mind to the planning commission um to propose why something is a good idea or is a bad idea um following the public hearing. So, the the document, the proposed zoning
ordinance is something that will be sort of drafted and written and um published on the city's website in advance of the hearing so that everyone knows exactly, you know, what they're commenting on, but that isn't necessarily the final version. So, there can be further
revisions after the public hearing. Someone raises some comments and and has a good point about it. You know, that's something that we can take into effect. There's kind of a fuzzy line here of we can make revisions but we can't, you know, make it a new ordinance
um but without having to go through another public hearing and you know where's the line between a significant revision and making it something new. Um usually it's it's something to think about. It's not usually something that
happens. Um, usually it's pretty clear if it's um, you know, oh, we need to make a couple little tweaks or fix some typos. Uh, or sometimes you get it done with a public hearing and you go, oh wow, that that really is not going to work the way that we'd written it. Um, and at that point, usually we kind of go
back to the first steps. Um, after the public hearing uh, and any potential revisions, planning commission takes a vote on things. um whatever you vote on becomes the recommendation of the planning commission. That goes on to
the city council. The city council adopts it. Uh then it's not actually doesn't go effective uh until it has been sort of officially published. Um but then it becomes part of the city code. >> Jack, can I add one thing there? >> Yes. One thing for any recommendation
the plan convention makes pro or con on whatever the topic is city council is not bound to follow that recommendation they can they can approve it or not approve it or if it's an ordinance there's ordinance
language that maybe the commissioner and I have worked out because the city council or Jack looks at it another time maybe we they can maybe send it back or they might make some amendments right at their meeting. So, it's not over until
the council really says it's over. >> Um, let's see. Occurs to me. Yeah. Uh, uses. I just want to make sure. Okay. So, I do talk about it later on um
in the the U packet here. Um, but you'll sometimes hear people talk about the 60-day rule, um, or statutes 15.99, um, which is just the statute that the 60-day rule comes from. Um, and so I mentioned there's all of this process
about we have to publish the proposed ordinance and then we have to have a public hearing and then we have to send a recommendation on to council and then coun, you know, we might make some changes and then council might make some changes and then we have to, you know, make a final decision and publish it. Uh and on some of the things that will come
before this commission, there is a deadline on it. Uh and so that's any um request relating to land use that is received, anything that is started by a member of the public basically. And so that's if someone comes in and applies for something, we have 60 days to make a
final decision. So again, you make a recommendation. So that isn't the final decision. So we have to go all the way through to council and have a final vote on it within 60 days. of them submitting the application and the penalty if we don't get back to them within 60 days is
that whatever they are asking for is automatically approved. Uh >> it has to be >> so it has to be a complete application. So there there's an initial review by staff to make sure you know okay is this you know we require these four things to make an application. Have they submitted
everything that they need to have? Um, but the review for completeness does not include a review for is this a good idea. Uh, and so if someone submits a completed application for something and we don't get back to them in time, it's just theirs, whatever they asked for,
however they ask for it. Um, as long as it is uh within our, you know, so they can't make an application to change the name of the moon or something because that's not something we can do. But if it's something that's within our power, it's just granted. Uh there are a couple of exceptions. So we can so we get 60
days. Uh the city can extend that for a second 60 days for any reason that we need to but we have to do that before the deadline expires. So it has to be a prospective we we send the applicant a
notice and says we are extending this for another 60 days um to finish this up. Uh and then uh generally speaking other than that second 60 days uh the only other way to extend it is um by
consent of the applicant. Um which can happen sometimes um you know if we need some additional information. They are putting together the information. they might agree to um you know put it on hold for longer than
usual so that they can put together the supporting information that we need. Uh if they don't agree to that, right? So if we say hey we need um you know a traffic study before we think
this is safe to approve and they don't give us the traffic study. We can't just say, "Well, we know you're working on it, so get it to us when you need to." What we have to do is we actually have to we have to take a final vote and deny it and say, "If you want to apply again,
give us a traffic study then." Uh, and so that's why sometimes the applicant will agree to um an extension. Um, it's something to keep in mind. you know, not often, but sometimes we do get developers who will try and kind of play
a game with that where you're like, "Hey, we need a traffic study for your application." And they say, "Yeah, we're working on it." And you'll say, "Hey, will you agree to an extension of the 60-day rule?" And they say, "Oh, we'll have you traffic study in no time." Uh, and they're kind of hoping that you
lose track of it. And they lose track of it, and then 60 days later, they just get their application approved. Uh, and so you you really do have to be, you know, pretty firm on, you know, no, we're we're going to put it on the agenda and vote to deny it unless you will agree to an extension, you know,
until you submit your your traffic study. Um, there are some rare exceptions to this. Generally speaking, the rare exceptions are if there is some other government body that has to make a decision. We can we can hold on to our
application until we get whatever that other application is. Um this happens sometimes with like wetland rules where we literally cannot approve something until the DNR says it's good to go. Uh, and so then we can say, well, you know, with we get uh, you know, 60 days after
the DNR makes its decision whenever that might be. Um, it's not for everything. That's that's usually about the only time that happens. Um, so and and staff is really good about keeping track of these deadlines. Um, I just kind of want everyone to be aware of you may get something that sort of
little seems a little halfbaked and sort of like, well, why, you know, it seems like we need a lot more information on this. can we, you know, can we send it back and get more information? And sometimes the answer is no, we don't have time. Uh, and so they just have to vote on it on on the information that
you have in front of you. >> Another example where the 60 days gets put on hold is for larger projects when there's an environmental review, an EAW or an EIS, all the environmental reviews have to be done, signed off, completed
before that 60-day clock starts. And in my past practices, most applicants don't even bother making the application to the city until they've completed all that because they know we're not going to be able to do
anything with it anyways. >> What about conditional approvals? >> Approvals and approval. >> Yeah. because I know that we sometimes at MIDOT have to exceed the 30-day rule for MDOT. And a lot of times the cities
will issue a conditional approval saying that the project is approved based on MDOT approving it. Uh but if we were to turn it down, then the city would not approve it. So it sounds like a lot of cities are doing something they're not supposed to
be doing. >> Well, the city is making it is taking an action. It's a condition just like we might require a revised site plan or a revised landscaping plan or a different color palette. It's just another condition. If they don't check that box,
>> that's too bad for them. >> Yeah. So, we we can add we can have we can approve something with conditions and those conditions are required. Um, usually where people can kind of run into trouble with that is
if they meet the condition, we don't get to take another look and see if it's still a good idea. It's just we have said approved on condition that DNR or that MDOT, you know, approves your highway access or whatever. And if they
come back and they say, "Okay, well, here's my letter from MDOT that says I'm approved." Then it's a done approval. there's no more city action that needs that can be taken on it. Uh and so if someone says, "Wait, actually, do we still think that's a good idea?" Too late. It's approved.
Um so, uh kind of getting back from the the timing thing, uh we have the different kinds of uses. So, um permitted, accessory, and conditional uses are kind of the big three categories. Um so a use
is what use is a property being put to as sort of the category of activity. Uh and so you know it's a little bigger. So we don't have uh you know we have residential is a category of use. Uh we don't necessarily
have like uh gardening or swing set for the kids is not that's just part of being a residential use. Uh and so it's you know it's sort of at that level. Um generally speaking a permitted use is something that is permitted without any
further action from the city. So if the city says um you can build a h you know this is uh single family residential uh and you want to build a single family home on that lot uh you know there there might be some applications related to
you know utility connections and things but you don't have to go to the city and say hey city can I please build this building here it's already been approved you just kind of get to start doing that >> as far as zoning goes you might still need a building permit Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> So in that scenario, the application to build a house does not come to the plane commission because it's permitted use. It still needs a building permit. It still is as part of that we do a zoning review and check setbacks, check the amount of impervious and those kind of
things. So it does get reviewed by the planning department, but not as a use, but just as the details to make sure it fits and meets all our city standards that are outlined in the code. Um so that's kind of a permitted use.
There's also uh we define some things as an accessory use. So an accessory use is something that is you know builds on to an underlying uh principal use uh that is allowed as part of the overall use of the
property but that cannot stand on its own. Um, so the the kind of classic example of this is uh you know a garage is something that is nice to have and helps support your house. Uh but the city would not allow someone to purchase
an empty lot and only build a garage on it. Um so it's it has to have that underlying principal use uh as part of it. Then there is what's called a conditional use. A conditional use is something where we have identified that
there are potential problems with a particular use. And so, not only are we going to make them go get a building permit for whatever construction they're doing, they actually have to come in front of the planning commission and city council to show that they have met
whatever conditions that we have uh imposed on that kind of a use. Uh, and I'll we'll go through kind of how that works more. Um but generally speaking they need to get a conditional use permit um in order to sort of make that
use work. Uh there are also things called interim uses. Uh so the main thing about a conditional use is that it is not and cannot be timelimited. So a conditional use is once approved it is permanent. Uh and it actually it it uh
goes with the land is the legal use, a legal term, which means if you approve a conditional use for a piece of property and then the owner of that property sells it to someone, they are also selling their conditional use permit. Uh and that doesn't expire uh and it
doesn't go away. Um, so if you have a conditional use permit for a gas station and you sell it to another person, they also have the right to continue operating the gas station and they don't have to come back and talk to the city
about it. An interim use is sort of like a conditional use. It is a use that has to be approved. You can't just it's not like a permitted use where you can just start it. You do have to come and get some kind of an approval. Uh and interim use uh also then does have a time limit
on it. And so it's usually um either for a set number of years or sometimes there's sort of a development target. So it's like you know you you can operate this use until the surrounding properties are 60% developed or something like that.
Uh we sometimes say that and members of the planning commission go well why don't we just make everything an interim use and then um you know it's just like a conditional use but they have to keep coming back and and then we can make sure that they're you know playing nice.
Uh and it there really are some restrictions on what we are allowed to call an interim use and we have to make some some justifications for why it is something that is consistent with the use of that land now
but won't be in the future and we have to be able to justify that sort of at the time that designation is made. Uh, so usually that goes for things like kind of more extractive um, you know, mining or things that might cause a lot of odor. Um, you know,
I've seen um, I think I've seen trash facilities on an interim use permit. Um, something where there's sort of a very foreseeable this is fine for now, but at some point in the future, you know, the neighbors aren't going to like it. Um, so they're
they're actually fairly uncommon, I would say. or the sanding >> or sanding gravel runs out or something like that. Um, so I'll go through conditional use permit. Uh, the way that an interim use
permit operates is pretty much the same thing. Um, so I'll just kind of run through this for a conditional use permit. If you want to know how interim uses work, just replace those words in your brain. It's kind of the same thing. Um so a conditional use again is
something where there is um we have thought about it and we have thought that this is something that is consistent with the zoning district that it's in but there's some potential problems if you know if there's too many of them if
they're not um operated in a a thoughtful manner. And so there needs to be some additional protection. And so we impose conditions on whatever that use is. There has to be a it's called a nexus requirement. So the conditions
that we impose on the use have to be related to the you know potential land use conflicts and it has to be related to kind of the zoning concerns that we have. And so, you know, um, cities will sometimes run into trouble where it's
sort of, well, hey, can we, you know, yes, you're going to build something that is permitted, but I think your design is kind of ugly. Can we require that you make it look better? Um, and unless you have kind of a larger, you
know, some areas have kind of a larger aesthetic um, consistency that is part of an ordinance or part of a design standard. Um, if it's just uh this one in particular, I don't like the look of, that's not necessarily a condition that you can impose.
Like I mentioned, also no time limits on conditional uses. Uh, in general, how it works, someone will put together, the city has an application form, has all the requirements listed for what information they need to submit. They will submit it to the planning department. Planning department will do a review. Um they
will go through there are um you know uh factors that are listed in the city code about uh what is required what what showings are required in order to get approval. Uh the planning staff will go through and and they will do a first
pass. They will do some analysis and they will usually come up with a recommendation and they say okay planning staff thinks this one meets the requirements. Uh, and with a conditional use permit, again, we can approve with conditions. And so sometimes planning staff will say, "We think it would meet
the requirements for approval if um, you know, uh, they do a traffic study and if they put a fence over here to block the light and if you know, whatever whatever conditions that staff comes up with." Um
now again like I mentioned you all provide recommendations to city council staff provides recommendations to you. Um so that's sort of you know you will get a report from staff that says we have done the analysis and we find uh you should approve this with these four
conditions. Uh that is always staff's recommendation and that is not necessarily something that you are bound by. um is also not necessarily something you are limited by. Um the planning commission can uh
impose conditions that are different from or even above and beyond what the planning staff has uh requested with some limits. Um, so you have a when you are reviewing an application for a
conditional use permit, you are reviewing that in what's called a quasi judicial capacity. Um, as that as the name suggests, you are applying these standards that have already been decided. And so your job is
to, you know, it's much more analytical, right? We have a standard. Do they meet that standard? um and and sort of how you feel about that standard is not part of it. You have much more discretion. So you you
are also involved in writing the zoning rules. And when the city is deciding what are the rules going to be, we have not unlimited but very broad discretion in basically in what is a good idea for
this zoning district, right? Should this be a conditional use? um what are the factors we should consider in a conditional use? Are there any specific performance standards that we will require of any of these uses? But once we set those and now we're
actually looking at an application, it's quasi judicial. It's much more limited. It's much more an analysis of we've already decided what the standards are going to be and now it's just do they meet the standards um
>> or could they meet them if we required some conditions of them. This is uh conditional uses are one of the most common ways that cities get sued. Um because people really, you
know, generally if someone is going through all of the trouble to apply for a conditional use permit, they're quite invested in, you know, getting that conditional use permit. And it's also one of the ways that cities lose lawsuits most frequently because, you
know, you again, it's kind of a judicial way of thinking. you have your list of criteria and you have the application and you're just saying does this application meet these standards. Uh and judges are quite convinced that they can read an ordinance and decide what it means just as well as a planning
commission can. So if someone say so you know if we're in a more discretionary writing the rules standard it's actually it's quite a low standard. So if we say we want to turn all of our single family
residential into you can build duplexes also almost impossible to bring a legal challenge against that because that's it's a discretionary policy decision of what's the best way to organize this.
Once we've made that decision and now we're looking at an application, again, it's a much more limited analysis. Uh, and courts are much happier to second guessess that kind of an analysis. Um, >> Jack, can I add a couple things?
>> Yeah. >> Commission, if we get a conditional use permit application, my time here, we've had a couple. I can think of the color school edition project and most recently Quick Trip. Those are
both properties that had existing conditional use permits on them. School going back to the 1960s. Quick Trip more recent. In both cases, they were proposing major changes to the site plan or building additions. The code specifically says if
you want to do that, it requires a conditional use permit amendment. And we treat that just as if it was a brand new application. They have to go through all the application process. Submit all the plans, justify or outline how their
project will meet the findings that are outlined in the zoning code for the condition use permit. So we treat it as a new application. It gets a thorough review recommendation. city council. Uh
and and so yes, they run with the property, but if the applicant or owner wants to make a change, then they have to start over. And so that change isn't necessarily guaranteed to be approved because now they want to do something different than what was
originally approved. And and usually the trigger for having to go back and get another application like that is if they're they're making the you whatever use they have if they're increasing the size or intensity of that use. So if they're you know we
have a conditional use permit for a gas station with four gas pumps and now they want to add eight more gas pumps and a car wash. um that is now that is a more intense use than they have approval for and so they need to go back and get another approval for that. But if for
example they have the four gas pumps and they just want to replace those with new gas pumps, that's not really it's not intensifying their overall use. So they don't have to come back and get a a new permit for that. One other thing too, when we put our
staff reports together, hope the commissioners that have been on the commission for a while, when we do the analysis and put the report together, we include those findings that are outlined in the code and then we the staff will say yes, this
does meet this finding or no, it doesn't or it will with this condition, that kind of thing. So those are right in the report and they're generally also included in any resolution that gets recommended for adoption to the council because the council
when they make their decision they're acting on a resolution or two and we try to put all those findings in a resolution. It might be findings to deny but we all put those in the resolution so they're in the record and the resolutions get recorded and kept as
part of the public record. And part of that goes back to I was talking about the the 1599 rule or the 60-day rule. Part of that is um that rule applies. So we have 60 days to give them a uh denial and the reason for a
denial or they get approved. Um and so if the city just says no, we don't like you. Um we don't if we don't give them a reason for the denial, then that doesn't quite count and they potentially get an automatic approval. Uh so we always make sure we want to be explaining ourselves
in terms of you know if we're looking at some criteria specifically what criteria are we looking at that is or is not um found is or is not satisfied. Um now the other thing I guess to to keep in mind
is that you know so we have a big list of criteria for what the applicant has to show. uh the applicant has the burden of proof. So if there is anything where you know we don't have to prove that they will be dangerous, they have to
prove that they will be safe. Uh and so it is a valid reason to deny is to say you haven't proven that you can meet this criteria and we don't necessarily have to say like well we've we think
you know we have proven that you won't right it's it's on them and so if you just don't have information that you need to show something that is potentially a reason to deny the application. Uh so condition use these purposes. The
other um probably thing you will deal with most often is variances. Uh so variances are uh a way so again in the zoning rules we set um sort of a lot of criteria on how uh property can be used
sort of what are the standards for um any given use on a piece of property. And a variance is uh basically a permission from the city to change or to depart from some specified number of
those criteria. Um so there's kind of some legal history. Uh if anyone who isn't a lawyer cares, uh I won't be wounded if you don't. Um basically the standard is the applicant has to show that there will be
practical difficulties in making reasonable use of their property unless they get a variance. So it's not just I would like to build a bigger house. Um you know that's not a good enough reason to depart from the
variance. Uh but there are times where uh sort of the specific layout of a lot um causes some some particular kind of hardship. And so sometimes, you know, we'll get um, you know, weird shaped lots where you're on a corner and so,
you know, they're very narrow. Um, or, you know, you've, uh, you know, you bought a house that was built under previous standards, uh, and you're hoping to, you know, do a rebuild, but you want to use the same foundation, um, but the standards changed after the
previous house was constructed or something like that. Um so uh again we have uh what do we have here 12 different factors um those come from the Minnesota Supreme Court. Those are also found um within
the city code. Um but just kind of you know it's a lot of kind of big things to consider. In general the main rules are um cost alone does not qualify as practical difficulties. So, someone just says,
"Well, it's more expensive to comply with the rules." That isn't good enough. Um, and then it also it has to be uh a circumstance that was not created by the person applying for the variance. Uh, and so, you know, well, I need a
variance to build my deck. Why do you need a variance to build your deck? Well, because I built the house too big and now I can't fit a deck back there. Again, that's not necessarily a a reason to depart from the normal standards. Um,
in general, it also has to be um has to be a the kind of use that is allowed within a general area. So, it has to be kind of in harmony with the overall uses. And you cannot grant what's called a use variance. So you cannot if there is a type of use that is
not allowed, you cannot grant a variance to allow that within a particular area. Uh the one exception uh is that you are allowed to grant a variance to use a single family home temporarily as a two
family home. Uh like I mentioned earlier, why is that the rule? Uh it doesn't matter. That is the rule. Uh I don't know. I have not talked to anyone who knows why that is a specific exemption, but it's right there in the statute. So that it is other than that.
So if someone says, well, I want a V, you know, I have a residential neighborhood. Uh, I want a variance to build a corner store, right? Well, are corner stores allowed? No. Well, then no, we can't give that to you because that's a use variance. Uh, it has to be sort of a performance standard. And so most often it's going to be setbacks.
Um, that's probably the main thing that we get uh variance requests for. Um, secondary usually is probably fencing. Um, we just had one somewhat recently where um, there were headlights and other lights from a business that were
shining into a home. Uh, and so they requested a variance to build a fence that is taller than ordinarily they would be allowed to. Um, so that's that's the kind of things that are going to be dealt with through a variance. Um and yeah, like I mentioned, uh with
conditional use permits, granting of variance is also, uh a quasi judicial, um you know, sort of application of the pre-existing rules to the pre-existing facts. Uh, and so there's not necess you're not necessarily going to have the
same discretion in considering an application that you would have in sort of writing the rules from scratch. Um, the other thing that I would say I would note is sometimes we have some cities
where there there's a whole lot of variances being applied for for kind of the same couple of provisions that just keep turning up over and over again. Uh and so I would say is if you notice that there have been a bunch of variance requests for a particular standard, it's
usually worth looking into well should we be granting these as variances or just or does the underlying rule need to be changed? And so if if everyone needs offense that is higher than what is allowed, should we just change the
rules and you know allow those? um generally speaking um mentioned the time limit um again you know that comes from 60 days from a
completed application uh and so sometimes you know staff will will get something and they will say this isn't a completed application uh sometimes I don't know that we get this a lot here some cities get it a lot sometimes we will get an application for something that does not exist uh and we
turn it around and say, "Sorry, that's not a that's not a thing that we can do." Um, you know, use variances and things. You know, I would I would like a permit to uh you know, operate my um you
know, auto repair garage or uh uh we had one where it was a uh I would like to operate a uh cannabis cultivation business in my backyard. uh and we said we actually don't have a permit that would allow that. Uh and so that just
gets rejected as you know that's not a thing that exists. Um generally speaking those will not make it as far as the commission that gets handled the staff level. Um couple last things here. So we do have
uh like I mentioned public hearings. Um talked about those a few times throughout the night. you have some kind of um general uh considerations for sort of how to manage how to run a public hearing. Uh in general, the the overall
legal standard that we're trying to give is we're trying to give people due process. Uh we want people to be able to participate. Um generally speaking, the what is required is notice and an opportunity to be heard. Um you know, we don't necessarily have to agree with
them. Um but they do have you know any member of the public who is you know interested in something if we're having a public hearing has to have an opportunity to um come speak to the commission. Uh I would say there's kind
of two types of public hearings. So there are statutory and there'sformational. The difference really there are certain things in the statutes where it just says you must hold a public hearing if you want to take this action. Um, if you want to change the zoning ordinances,
the p planning commission must have a public hearing. Uh, and so that's just sort of a requirement. Uh, but that is uh that is a floor that is not a ceiling. And so if you ever have something that doesn't necessarily require a public
hearing, but is something that lots of people are going to have strong opinions about or that you're aware that a lot of people have strong opinions about, you can always have a public hearing anyway. um even if it is not required um just keep in mind that it will be you know
it's a little more work for staff uh and it will make the meeting run a little bit later um because everyone has to take the time but yeah >> uh public hearings can be slated into our regularly scheduled planning commission meetings. They don't need to
be a separate >> event. Yes. So they will be handled it will just be one item on the agenda will be public hearing for whatever the public hearing is for. Um there generally if it is a statutory public hearing um there will be um separate
notice requirements in whatever statute is requiring that. Um usually it's um you have to publish it so many day publish notice so many days in advance and uh mail a notice to some subset of
people at least so many days in advance. Um a pretty standard one is uh it's usually like publish notice at least two weeks in advance and you have to mail notice to everyone within 350 ft at least 10 days in advance. Um, and so
there will be separate notices, but the actual public hearing will just be at a regular meeting. Um, one other important thing to kind of end my my portion of this on is uh impartiality.
Again, like I mentioned, quasi judicial decision-making for um considering an application. So that's for considering a variance, for considering a conditional use permit, um which uh you will also hear a CUP, uh is the acronym. Um I I generally try and stay away from
acronyms, but it's that one is widely enough used that you will just hear people talking about a cup. Um you know, um sometimes you will get uh it's called a um text amendment application. So, someone will actually say, "I think you should change the
zoning ordinances and here's what I think you should change it to." Um, that one you do have more discretion on because again, you're you're considering what the rules are going to be. Uh, but for anything where you are considering an application, uh, you have to be impartial, right? You have to be making
a decision based on what are the rules that have been written and the application that we've received and does this application meet these rules? Uh and uh so there's a particularly famous case, Continental Property Group versus
Minneapolis, where there was a um was a council member um who I I believe also was sort of the one of the council liaison to the planning commission who took a real interest in sort of um spearheading the opposition to a
development. That's a >> um took a lot of, you know, again, I'm I'm a lawyer. I'm here to tell everyone not to have any fun, but took a lot of ill-advised actions. um was meeting with groups that
were opposed to the development, was uh sending emails to people to try and convince them to be opposed to the amendment, was talking with other city council members and other counts to try and, you know, talk them into
opposing this development more. Uh and then um you know uh appears to have been at least partially effective because the city did then vote to deny the application which then went to a court and was then overturned because one of the decision
makers was so invested in denying this application that it had sort of tainted the entire process. Uh and so you know it can be u tricky it can be inconvenient. You know, I know you are all, you know, you're you're all
residents. You're all citizens of the city. Um you all have your opinions about things that are going on. Sometimes there are um you know, developments that are sort of big news um that have, you know, people have strong opinions one way or the other or
usually both. Um, and it can be really hard not to sort of engage in some of those, um, you know, those conversations about, you know, is this going to be a a great new development that's going to bring in
a lot of jobs and lower the cost of housing? Or is this some greedy developer who's going to, you know, do everything super cheap and stiff everyone and, you know, kick puppies while they do it?
Uh but again you as as the decision makers as public officials you know you have a you know kind of a a duty to um fairly consider any application that goes in
front of you. Uh and so you know it it again it can be uncomfortable. Um but usually the the stock response to anything is you know um as a member of the planning commission I can say that we will we will fully consider any
concerns um at our meeting where we're talking about this project. uh and people will want, you know, a much more definite, you know, okay, but but you also think this is a bad idea, right? Uh and again, I
would just urge you not to engage. Um, and if they're really being pushy, you you can tell them about something like Continental Properties and you can say, "Look, um, you know, the if you're pushing me too hard on this, if I'm engaging too much in this, you
could end up causing the opposite result. Um, we had uh another situation where um there was an application for uh it was for a church that wanted to
come in and build on a parcel uh and someone came up to the microphone at the public hearing at a planning commission meeting and said, "I don't think we should approve this church because I disagree with this church's politics and I think they're not a good fit for our city and I cannot think of a single other
thing that is makes it more likely that the city is going to approve that development than saying something like that. Um because you know it's it and you know just because someone mouths off in the audience does not mean that you were necessarily constrained. But that's
kind of the um you know the the kind of the analysis. And so, you know, if someone's really opposed to something and really will not let it drop, you can just say like, "Look, if I talk to you about this, somebody could use it to overturn the decision that you want."
>> Yeah. So, no one have any fun or say anything or talk to anybody ever. Um, >> yeah. Great. Uh-huh. Uh, and if you need to blame the lawyer, uh, that is what I'm here for. Um, >> Jack, before you go, I do have one question for you. >> Yes.
>> For this group or commission, how much data and or consideration and how do they do it for the stuff they're voting on to the properties outside of its border?
So, I mean, because we border a county line and are landlocked, if they're voting or to approve a conditional use permit for um let's say a uh marijuana uh dispensary,
but our city code says you have to be so many feet from a certain thing, but that certain thing is outside of our property. Is that still allowed to be considered? Um >> let's say we say um someone wants to put
another gas pump at Arco, but we say you have to be so many feet from a residence to have more gas pumps. And they are within our city, but they're not across the county. Um what data and considerations or constraints does this
group and the city have for things outside of our borders? Uh that is a very good and interesting question uh and not something that necessarily has a super clear answer. In general uh like with many things it does
kind of depend on how it is defined. Um I would say if it has been written broadly if it's uh a residence right must be more than 500 feet from any residence or something like that. Uh I would say that is not limited to any residence in the city of North St. Paul.
Uh and so then we you know we'd be looking at our planning staff and you know they do a good job of making the little diagrams where they you know they put the little bubble little circle on the map and list everything that is inside that circle. Um but just because
it is you know across the street from um another city or you know some county controlled uh right ofway or something um doesn't necessarily mean we have to ignore it. um notify >> and we still have to notify properties
even if they are not within our boundaries. Um I guess one other thing um that I will mention um while I'm on the subject of sort of impartiality and and the analysis uh is the other thing to keep in mind as you're going through the analysis is that um neighborhood
sentiment or neighborhood feelings about an application are not a justification to approve or deny the application. So, you know, you might get an application and if it meets all of the standards, you must approve it. And if
75 people show up to the meeting and they all say, "I hate this." They meet the they meet the standards. Um, now some what does happen sometimes is they will someone will come up and they will have an actual a real, you know, they can let you know about a
potential concern or conflict or a potential way that this application doesn't meet all of the standards. Uh and so what we have sometimes is you know we are unaware that uh there's a lot of you know the t parking is really tight um within a neighborhood and so
when we're looking at an application we just say well yeah okay you know the this isn't going to cause that much additional traffic uh and so we think it's probably fine and then we get to the meeting and a bunch of people come in and they they have pictures and they say look you know this was 100 p.m. on a
Tuesday and there's not a single parking space available on this block. So actually this is going to cause parking problems, right? And that's not just kind of their feelings about an application that is actually, you know, that is bringing information in front of
you that you can then consider. Um, but if it's just I don't like this, then that isn't the basis for making a decision. Jason brings up an interesting point and what I'm wondering is uh the counter to
that uh let's you know how much control do we have over what's going on in adjacent areas you know let's say that and I don't know this is the case but let's say that Oakdale does not have
restrictions on where cannabis stores can go and they decide they're going to put one there on uh that's within uh a restricted distance in North St. Paul from a school or a church, but they don't have that restriction on their
side. >> Uh that would be their decision. Um and so we can't necessarily, you know, we could if we start to become aware of that certainly. Um we could either a North St. Paul resident could go to an
Oakdale Council meeting or um you know if if it was something that the commission was aware of you could send a commissioner and you could say hey just so you know North St. Paul has an ordinance that says we don't want you know dispensaries within 500 feet of a
school and you don't have the same requirement but this one you're considering would be within 500 feet of a school. We would like you not to do that. uh and they may or may not listen. Um but
that's it does become their decision. >> All right. >> Now or forever hold your piece. >> Uh but don't actually I am here to answer your questions. Uh, and if you have any questions, I would much rather get a question about, hey, is this okay?
Instead of an email six months from now saying, so we did this and now someone's mad about it. >> Um, so um, >> thank you so much. >> Yeah. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, um, members of the commission
um, for having me. And like I said, you know, I'm I'm here to answer any questions that you you may have at any point. Um if you have any questions, just send them over to Ken. Um Ken knows a lot about uh planning and things and so he he may be able to just answer your
question and if he's not, um we send each other a lot of emails. Uh and so he can pass it on to me and we will make sure that you get uh a good answer uh in a timely fashion so that you have what you need to make a a safe and informed decision. Excellent. Thank you for your
>> Thank you very much for your time. >> Okay. >> I apologize everyone, but I do have a work commitment, so unfortunately I leave you >> the rest of the meeting. Thank you. >> Thanks for being here. All right. The next item on our agenda
is to approve February 5th uh meeting minutes. So I don't I would uh entertain a motion for that >> also move. >> Sorry being distracted by things.
That was uh motion by Commissioner Muy. Is there a second? >> I'll second that. >> Second by Commissioner Gadboy. Is there any discussion or corrections or anything like that?
In that case, um, all in favor say I. >> I. >> I. >> That is unanimous. >> Sorry, I'm being distracted by my equipment. Um, meeting is open to the public and
the public is not present today. So, and we have no public hearings. >> Yes, >> they're always on the agenda even when there aren't any >> just in case. >> It's just a blank. Yeah, that's the normal procedure.
So, we are to um item eight regarding comprehensive plan update. We aren't going to do it all tonight. >> Well, if if it gets to be too much me off. Uh, thank you, commissioners.
This So, I put a PowerPoint presentation together as you can see on the screens. It somewhat follows what was in your packet and but there's been some changes too. So start you off with that. So comprehensive plan, we touched on that
with Jack and why we're talking about the cont comprehensive plan especially for our new members is the city of St. North St. Paul is required to complete an update of its comprehensive plan by September of 2028
and to start that process. And some of the commissioners will remember and I'll touch on this. We talked about this back last year also. I've included some information from our existing comprehensive plan and we'll go from
there, which is a kind of a starting point. So, this is not in your packet, but for the benefit of everyone, including myself, is what is a comprehensive plan? and Jack touched on it, but really what it is is it's the overall policy
guideline for the city. How is the city going to develop? And it has the goals and policies concerning the desirable physical, social, and economic development of the city. So, it's a document that guides the actions of the community.
The comprehensive plan represents the community's vision for how it will how it wants to grow, change, and renew itself with policy strategies and investments that the city will undertake. It gets into how the city wants to
develop its land, redevelop older areas, ensure there's adequate housing, provide roads, water, sanitary sewer, protect natural areas, and meet other community goals. So, it gets into the areas of land use,
housing, neighborhoods, economic development, transportation, utilities, parks, trails, and others. And the last bullet point there is an important one. All city land use decisions including zoning
decisions, subdivision reviews and development controls must be consistent with the comprehensive plan. So an example, a comprehensive plan will lay out a map that says this area is going to be commercial, this area is going to be residential, this will be industrial,
this will be a park. If our zoning rules and zoning map are not consistent with what the comprehensive plan says, that's a bad thing and it gets really dicey and the attorneys love that. So, we really strive for consistency.
But the key is we start with the comprehensive plan because that's the overall big picture. So, a little background for again commission members, everybody watching at home. The city has probably had a comprehensive plan in place, I'm sure,
since the 1970s. Uh, it can get into this and it's been updated and reviewed and amended several times since then. This most recent update is kicking off again. We have two and a half years to
do an update on the plan. I brought this to the commission back in November and we started talking about it and it got late and the commission said how about we bring that back to a later meeting and so here we are and why why the comprehensive plan and
why does that have to be updated? It is in part because North St. Hall is part of the seven county metro area which a lot of the land use and zoning and public systems are regulated and set by
the metropolitan council. They're a non-elected body that gets to make all sorts of important decisions for those elements for all units of government in the seven county area.
To start the process, the Met Council develops what they call their regional development guide. They approved their guide back just about a year ago, February 12th, 2025. And according to the Met Council, one of
their biggest responsibilities is to create a regional development guide every 10 years. From that then the cities and the counties get to update their comprehensive plans based on the guidance from the Met Council. So
they're calling the current development guide imagine 2050. So when we're doing this plan update, we're looking out more than 20 years. We're rubbing our crystal balls trying to figure out how
things are going to look both on the city level and then they're looking more regional level uh with big broad strokes and vision. So their overall vision for the county
or for the seven county area is a to have a prosperous, equitable, and resilient region with abundant opportunities for all to live, work, play, and thrive. Boy, does that sound great.
But that's what they put out. So to get there, they've outlined several regional goals. That the region is equitable and inclusive. That our communities are healthy and safe. Our region is dynamic
and resilient. We lead by addressing climate change. We protect and restore natural systems. And there's extra words there. And the printout I left for each of you is this very PowerPoint. So you can take it home
and read it further if you wish. So those are their overall goals for the whole region. Why that is important is then when we as a city and all again all the local governments adopt or revise and adopt comprehensive
plan updates, we have to be consistent in those plans with the goals, policy and plans for regional development. has set by the Met Council. An example of that that comes up once in a while is let's say a city a growing
city identifies we need a major interchange at a highway here and here because there's a lot of traffic and it's growing or we expect it to grow and so we foresee in the next five or 10 years a need for an interchange new
interchange. If the Met Council has not identified that interchange as being necessary, they probably won't approve your comprehensive plan showing that interchange. So that's that's an example of where consistency between what the Met Council
says and what the city thinks is important. I don't foresee that happening in North St. Paul. But so all all this comp plan talk is coming down. It's governed by state law. That's in the middle
paragraph there. Statute 473145. That council gets to set the overall goals and policies for the region. And then from that, each local government has to do their comp plans and their comp plan updates. And there's a whole bunch of things that
they have provided the city which we briefly looked at at the last meeting. As part of that process, they send out a a a system statement to each city saying, "Here's where your parks are, here's where your road systems are, anything
that will be on the regional system." Uh, in that, if again it was a growing city, say a Lake Elmo or Woodbury, they would have identified a future interchange or maybe a m a major sewer line extension, those
kind of things. For better or for worse, we don't have to worry about those in North St. Paul because we're pretty much all set on those major systems. I will say the one thing they have identified is the need, probable need for an interchange at highway 36 and 120 that
is on everybody's radar from Mindot to Washington County, Ramsey County and the Met Council. So that's one regional system, the highway system that a change could or should impact will impact North
St. Paul and Oakdale and the counties that hasn't been identified. So the agencies that want to put plans together to figure out how to best fit an interchange there will be doing so be in part they're okay to do that because
they will be consistent with something the Met Council has identified as important. So back okay so now we're going to jump back in time. The 2024 comp plan update was started in
2016 again 10 years ago. This is a every 10-year cycle. And through the series of meetings, they developed uh a vision and some goals for the city that were included in the well, it's now in place,
the 2020 2040 comprehensive plan, which we will be updating. And again, a lot of those pages are in the materials I we sent out in the packet. But here's where we start getting to hopefully the more fun stuff.
The vision in the current comp plan again the 2040 is this statement. Uh North St. Paul is your favorite small town. We promote community stewardship when involved and informed citizenry.
We preserve neighborhood value with diverse and maintain housing and active neighbors. The city engages in creative placemaking that fosters an environment of economic and employment opportunity. North St. Paul builds systems that connect people to places and promote
active lifestyles. So something for the commission to ponder and there will be other things as part of your homework I guess I would call it. Does that vision still ring true for North St. call now looking
now that it's been in place for 10 years. I don't need an answer now, but that's something we're going to have to consider as part of the update. So, from that vision, the city had developed some overall goals and some more specific goals and these I think
are included in your materials. The North St. Paul tries to be fair and balanced in its approach to planning. That the goals show the city acknowledges the diverse aspects that make North St. Paul desirable place to live and work and that the city is
committed to building on its strengths and identifying areas with more room to grow. And as a note I add there, there are additional details on the strategies and implementation of the goals in the chapters within the comprehensive plan.
did not include all those because comprehensive plan for those that don't know is probably 300 pages. There's there's a lot there. >> So now these are the goals in the current plan.
The there's eight of them. community engagement and communication. And the way to get there is through promoting community stewardship through and involved in a form citizen citizens. Uh number two, residential character
neighborhoods. And so again, to help get there have an we want to have an enhanced neighborhood value with quality housing options and all types of price points. We want to improve the quality and mix of the city's housing. We want to
revitalize and enhance the quality of housing stock so it's attractive and appropriate for new buyers. Under business and economic development, we want to possess a progressive image for redevelopment while maintaining the sense of community heritage. I think one
can think about 7th Avenue and how that's turned out. Again, the these were put in place before the redevelopment downtown. Engage and create a placemaking that fosters an environment of economic and employment opportunity, etc., etc.
Foster a strong and diverse business base with plan and organized growth. Timely allocation of resources and investment of public dollars. Again, look to downtown and 7th Avenue for downtown. Then establish and implement a downtown improvement plan,
which I think was done fairly successful so far. uh transportation achieve functional aesthetic and a balanced system which includes pedestrian friendly sidewalks and trails, local streets, collectors, arterials, a freeway and transit. Well,
I think we have all those. I don't know that there will be many changes to any of those. Urban design, we want to enhance community character through visual design and functionality of the public's public realm. Again, back to downtown. Develop teams,
prepare plans, and implement plans will enhance and improve the image and livability of the city and downtown Highway 36 corridor and the neighborhoods. Two more parks, trails, and open space. We want to enhance and expand the parks, trails,
and open space system to ensure that all have access to quality community facilities and resilience and the environment. We want to protect, enhance the lakes, wetlands, woods and wildlife, promote
actions and practices and developments which will sustain the environment. And we want to become more resilient to climate change through climate change mitigation and adaptation. I don't know how the heck the city is going to do that last one, but it sounds good.
So, those are our overall goals that are currently in the comprehensive plan. And again, what I want the commission to think about and if you have comments now, we can talk as long as you wish. Are all those
are is the vision and are all those eight goals and their explanations still relative for the city moving forward? Or do we need to explore? Are there other goals that aren't talked
about here that may be important? And I know there's a lot of words and a lot to think about. Um, but this this is our starting point because once the city sets its vision and goals, then we start
diving into what's the land use plan maps going to look at, what are we going to do for transportation, what are we going to do for the park system, all those other things. But we're starting with this is kind of the kickoff. Is this are these the things we
want the city to strive for for the next 20 years. That's why I brought those. Those are in the existing plan. My quick analysis I think most of them are still relevant. Doesn't mean there can't be other goals
or vision. The vision maybe could be tweaked. Uh but before we start diving into the rest of comprehensive plan, we want to kind of set the foundation. Here's what we want the comprehensive plan to represent for North St. Paul.
And these are the important things that we want to take into account. With that, I'll stop and we can have discussion or take questions or not. Uh I have a question. Can you point out
any um specific items in the Oh, shoot. What was it called? The system >> system statement. >> System statement. Anything specific that you would say we really should focus some attention on this?
>> Any any uh kind of point us in a direction to >> like focus attention here? There's a I didn't include it in my PowerPoint, but I know it's in your packet. Uh let's see. I've got a copy
here. Hang on. Pretty sure I printed. Yes, I did. I know there's a couple of things that they the Met Council included about climate and climate change and
let me find it that well one is a water resources and we can come back to that in a second. Um is there are >> there's there's three different kinds of water. Yes, there's drinkable water, storm sewer. >> Storm sewer and surface water,
>> right? >> And I would think the surface water is a thing for sure. >> Yes. >> Based on some of what's in there, >> right? I'm trying to find they had a I know they had a couple of warm fuzzy
things about climate change and carbon or I think emissions. I don't know how the heck the city measures those or has an impact on those especially since the city's 99% developed. If we had
>> 50% remaining to be developed and we wanted to look at okay what type of developments might affect creating more impacts on the environment or on the ozone layer then yes I don't know that we can as as
North St. Paul being built out have any kind of effect on that. So, that's that's one thing, but I'll get you in a second. The water system, especially the drinkable water, water supply, that's something we're we as a city are going to have to pay attention
to, of course, with our current water situation being kind of up and down and maybe not always to the liking of all the residents. That's a thing. But with that,
North St. Paul because of its location near Wiper Lake, the lake is also impacted by some court rulings about how much groundwater can be pumped. And there's a big study going on right now to show
so long backstory is six or eight years ago some residents on Wiper Lake itself sued the DNR saying you're allowing the cities around the lake to pump too much groundwater out of the aquafer and
so the lake level went down. >> Don't pay attention to those two years of drought that were affecting that. that couldn't have possibly been a factor. But a judge made a ruling and I don't remember all the details that put a
whole bunch of restrictions on any city within five miles of the shore of the lake and apparently in parts of North St. Paul fit fall within that five mile radius. Because of that, then there was legislation passed that the DNR has to
study in great detail for millions of dollars what's going on with the aquifer and what might be done to help replenish the lake because god forbid that that lake be down two feet and make these people be inconvenience. Oh, wait. That was a
editorial comment. and and there and so what that may lead to is North St. Paul you can no longer have your own wells we're on our own independent city water system they may say you can't do that you can't
have your wells you have to hook up to Maplewood which is hooked up to the St. Paul water system that could be they may say north St. you're such a small draw on the aquafer, you can stand alone, you're fine. We
don't know yet. Uh so the water supply system and all this is going to be going on in the next two or three years at the same time kind of plan update is going on. So yes, we have to pay attention to that, but a lot of it is really out of
our control because of the courts and the studies that are going on. Uh they're talking there was one plan floated of somehow creating a pipeline from the Mississippi River to Wiper Lake to help refill it for $600 million or
some crazy number. >> White Bear Lake has been recovering nicely >> well in recent years. So, >> but and but because there was a court action and then some state law written to fund this study that said the DNR you
shall do this, they are doing it. >> I hope our goal is that we're such a small independent piece that we don't have to get dragged into it. But tied into that is places like
Oakdale and Lake Elmo are having problems with their water supply because of the PAPS and all that and they are building their own treatment plants. I know Oakdale's got one under construction. Woodbury is building one.
Cottage Grove is building one. Might it come down to Well, that's good, but we still can't get enough water. So now Oakdale needs to hook into the St. Paul water system, which would mean connecting over to Maplewood because Maplewood's fed by the St. Paul Regional
Water Authority. >> They have their big plant over off of Rice Street. And while Oakdale needs to get a pipe from Maplewood, it's going to run right through North St. Paul. Well, why not just hook up North St. Paul at the same time? We don't know that. I don't know
that that would happen or could happen, but it could be a thing. So water supply, I think that what they put in the system statement isn't too scary, I don't think. But there's just a
lot of stuff going on right at the moment that could create all sorts of, shall we say, challenges for water in North St. Paul. So we'll definitely keep the commission informed on that. I don't
know that that affects well maybe the natural resources and our goals but so that's enough of me. Did you have a question? >> I I was going to say this and this may be outside the scope of this commission
but I believe North St. Paul is meeting those goals via organized storm sewer cleanouts and rebates on energy efficient upgrade like home upgrades to existing
properties. Even though we can't build new properties >> sort of like relatively built out here, we're going to upgrade existing properties in energy efficient ways. >> Then we certainly support all those >> plans and programs.
>> I participated in one of those. We replaced our toilets. >> Phenomenal. >> It was really interesting. And we went on we went online to Home Depot and there was a popup that said, "Did you know that North St. Paul will give you a rebate if you buy this toilet?"
>> Yeah, it was really interesting. >> The use is a gallon and a half instead of >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. The the lesser flush. Yeah. Really interesting. But those sorts of things are available when you when you just sort of have to kind of
seek them out. but you don't have to seek very far when the retailers will point it out for you. I thought that was really good. Um, yeah, I was thinking the surface water and the water supply were kind of the two water things, but then I thought all the things related to
bicycles and pedestrians and trails and regional trails and that kind of stuff. Um, and one thing I I and we were just talking about this in the office this week is >> as far as I can tell, we don't we the city don't have a really good trail map
for the city. >> Join the bike trails, >> right? >> Whether there's the county, the state, even the city ones. So I I think as part of our plan amendment, we should have our consultants put one together. >> So people want it, we could hand it out
or put it up on the wall or include it in the plan update. >> So a little a little more on the comp plan there. Generally what cities do is one of two things. They look at their comp plan that's in place. They say, "Yeah, most of it's pretty good, but we
need to update some statistics like on population and land use and acres of this and that and the most recent numbers on whatever the Met Council gives us, but the general goals and policies are still good. Maybe they need a tweak or two." And so that's what they
do. The others are what I think happened when the 2040 plan was put together. It it was a really almost a doover. It was a major rewrite. The 2030 plan just wasn't cutting it anymore. There was too many changes in the world, too many
changes in North St. Paul. So, they pretty much scratched it and started fresh. And that's the plan that's in place. That's how I have that's my determination from what I have found. my quick well somewhat quick reading of the
comp plan the 2040 as I think a lot of it is still relevant and still useful. I don't see the need to do a complete major rewrite from top to bottom and that's that could be a 50 or $80,000
project with a consultant and I don't see the need for that. Are there things that need to be updated because the Met Council says to Yes. But that's why I want to start with these goals. If these goals are still relevant and good or maybe they need tweaking, that's where
we start. as long as we don't do what I would call the third version of comp plans which I've seen dozens of working for at Mandot which is the MAD libs version >> which is because I can tell you that I
was one of the people responsible for reviewing the comp plans uh for 2040 and I saw at least 15 to 20 that were the exact same comp plan from the same consulting firm they just filled in the
relevant data. But right down to the same darn pictures and line items, you know, you could turn to page 18 in a dozen different plans and see the exact same stuff there. They just put in the right numbers,
which I thought was a really cheap way of doing uh, you know, cheap as in not terribly effective way of doing something just to check the box. Well, that's the thing is I bet a lot of these towns didn't bother checking other
other comp plans. So, the consultant was able to get away with doing something. >> But we're better than that. >> We are. That's what I'm saying is, you know, we're better than that. So, >> do you think there's value in uh
community meetings like we had with the last rewrite? >> Patrick, I don't know yet. I if I I know for sure if the city thought commission and or the council that hey there's a lot of issues there's a lot of things we
think need potentially changing then yes >> okay >> if I'm percolating at least with me if we don't think there's any real major new things that haven't been thought of
or major changes that need to be considered I don't uh I'm certainly not opposed to it, but I don't want to have meetings to have meetings and have everybody say, "Well, we kind of want to do the same thing because what's the point?" But I it's
something for the commission. I really would appreciate you thinking about that's again this whole I'm trying to get this introduced and get people thinking about it. Eventually, I'll have to bring it up to the council and say, "We need to start as a council and
commission and the city start thinking about this and they're going to rely on us to primarily me to say, "Okay, here's what I think we need to do." But it's a little bit chicken and the egg. If if a lot of what's in the plan is okay, well,
then it's not such a big headache. If there's a whole bunch of stuff that no longer works or is applicable, then that's a bigger thing. Uh I know it's late. If there's thoughts on this, great. Otherwise, I can bring
it back again at another meeting if you want to noodle it and ponder it and look further. >> That was going to be my recom recommendation. >> Yeah, mine too. >> Kind of why I wanted some, you know, if you can kind of point to, hey, give some
attention to this in particular, but >> there's a lot of material there. So, >> and and again, I guess for now, think about the vision. >> Think about the goals. And the vision is kind of a nicity thing, but it's really the goals that are, I
think, most important. What are we striving to do with our plan as a city? >> Do you want to make is that a motion or a consensus or what do we >> to uh bring it back? >> Yes. after further review. >> Yeah. I I don't Do we need a motion for
that? Do you think >> I don't know if anybody else had any >> Anybody have any feelings about that? I don't I mean I don't think we need to make it official. >> I I just don't want to assume anything. That's >> No, I I I think that that's that that feels like the right thing to do. Give us a little time to
>> digest it, >> chew on it. The information that you provided is really good and very comprehensive. So um um I do have a question. This which was your PowerPoint? >> Yes. >> Was this attached as part of the packet?
>> No. >> Okay. So this is this is our version of it. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And a lot of the words in the PowerPoint came out of the staff report, but added some different things of >> why are we doing a comprehensive plan that wasn't in the staff report. >> Yeah. And well it was the goals were
really obvious in here. That's why that's helpful. >> Yeah. I don't I think there's a general consensus that we'll just do we'll take that action or not take any action. >> Veto had a question. >> Oh, it may be useful if you send along
via email alike. Please review XYZ thing. I mean largely these eight uh in light of you know this particular section of some document uh largely what you're getting from the Met Council.
>> I can I can just email out the PowerPoint >> that that would be useful. >> That would be good. >> Yep. >> Okay. >> I'm not going to lose >> to missing commissioners also. >> Yeah. and then we'll bring it back at a I think our next meeting which is April I
know we have two public hearings with one is a lot division and a variance and one is for a a uh condition use permit for an accessory dwelling unit. I don't know if we'll have a lot of time
to talk about this, but maybe we can just do a brief summary if >> Yeah, we should >> after you have your thoughts and >> Yeah. And then then we should study the accessory uh dwelling unit uh ordinance a little bit to make sure that we have a comprehension of that
>> and that'll be in our very thorough and comprehensive staff report. >> I'm sure it will. And uh I think Chris is going to do at least one of those again. So, excellent. Good. Oh, okay. So, so we're good on now on the conf. >> Yeah, we're good.
>> Yeah, thank you for all the info. >> Absolutely. >> Appreciate it. >> I do have a couple of quick reports. >> Good. >> The last, you know, council meeting on the 17th of February. They approved the fence variance and they approved the quick trip condition
use permit amendment. I got an email the next day from the guy from Quick. Oh, can I get my building permit? Well, you got to finalize your plans and do a couple of things, but they're anxious to to do that. So, those those are both examples of things that Jack talked about tonight. Well, you all could
probably figure that out. It's very was recommendations to the council and there was no changes, very little discussion. So, that was great. And then the uh all the code amendments we had looked at with the especially the downtown design
and I was proposing to add a bunch of bunch of design standards in the code that all got approved. >> Good. >> Really uh everything that we've done they gave a thumbs up and it's all in place now. >> Excellent. Very good. >> Thank you.
>> Well, reports or comments? >> It's a little late but who takes the minutes? That's staff. >> Yeah, we the meeting gets recorded then Chris, my assistant from >> Yeah. From the recording. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, you if you haven't met Chris,
you'll get get a chance. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Nothing from me. >> No. Thank you. >> Nothing. The only thing the only thing I wanted to comment because I don't think that Jack um brought it up but um he did
talk about how we are appointed in our roles um but we are essentially advisors to council. So staff is advising us, we are advising council,
>> council is taking action. So that's kind of how the procedure works. And um I Ken, I think you're you and your staff have done a fantastic job. It's been really good. I think a lot is getting done. Um and you bring great information
that makes our jobs easier. So, um I say we keep it up. >> And one thing I'll point out is I've worked in a couple of cities where the planning commission could make the final decision on a variance or a conditional use permit. Didn't even have to go to
the council. Most cities do it as >> okay >> where it's a recommendation to the council and council makes a final decision on everything but some delegate that planning zoning authority to the planning commission and they can and then if on those cases if somebody
doesn't like the answer of the planning commission it can be appealed >> to the city council. >> There's no right or wrong way to do it. It's just each city gets to choose. >> Yeah. >> I do have one thought. Uh could we possibly put on the agenda for next time
that uh we will do a introduction uh of everybody to everybody so that we find out a little bit more about our new members? I would ask tonight, but since we're missing two members, you know, why have them go through it twice? >> Well, see, now they're prepared now.
They've been told, >> right? >> Should we should we do that? Um >> say at the beginning. Yeah, maybe stick it on right after we approve the previous meeting minutes or something like that. >> I don't know how you inject it into your
your formal agenda. Ask Chris. He'll figure it out. >> Well, instead of >> instead of a public hearing, we'll do that. >> Well, we No, we could do it under presentations. >> Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's a good idea.
>> I guess one last question. Have we scared you off yet or we? >> Not yet. >> I'm still here. >> Good. >> We have to wake them up first. >> And again for Veto and Pete, if you got questions, call me, email me, or Chris,
and don't be afraid to reach out. >> Thank you. >> Okay. To email. >> Excellent. >> Absolutely. >> But if you email at 3 in the morning, I'm not answering them. Just on notice.
>> All right, that being the case, how about a motion to adjurnn? >> So moved from Commissioner Maruchini. >> Hey, good. Very good. >> It's like getting the names right. And a second.
>> A second. >> Second from Commissioner Gab. All in favor say I. I. I. >> We are adjourned at 8:45.