##VIDEO ID:pqG6t5atK44## all right this is the opening of Norton Conservation Commission public meeting for Monday November 25th uh it is now 6:30 and as we are obligated uh because this is a remote meeting we need to read a preamble and Dan are you there I am here can you hear me we can hear you you're uh I'm blurry I I'll change but uh but you can go ahead with the Preamble if you have it pursuant to Governor Healey's March 29th 2023 Bill extending several covid era policies and programs by allowing virtual meetings to continue from March 31st 2023 to March 31st 2025 this meeting of the Norton Conservation Commission will be conducted via remote participation to the greatest extent possible specific information and the general guidelines for remote participation by members of the public Andor parties with a right Andor requirement to attend this meeting can be found at the end of this agenda members of the public ATT um Dan can you hear us because we can't hear you all of a sudden but I will I will continue as member members of the public attending this public hearing slash meeting virtually will be allowed to make comments if they wish to do yeah I'll just finish out that we can uh can you hear us oh can you hear me now uh we can hear you now I think uh there's a button that all right well can can you hear me meeting is being recorded uh yeah can you hear us I'll uh do you want me to finish it no I'm gonna finish it right yes so um yes okay I'm going to finish I can can you hear me uh we got Dan let's just hold off on let let Julian finish all right yes yes I can hear you hearing no I mean Dan come in please there we go go ahead Julian I just muted Dan for a second so you finish the public attending this public hearing SL meeting virtually will be allowed to make comments if they wish to do so during the portion of the public hearing designated for public comment by raising their hand virtually or pressing star n if participating by phone no in-person attendance of meeting of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time by a technological means in the event that we are unable to do so despite best efforts we will post on the Norton Cable website which is https www Norton media center.org and audio or Vis video recording transcript or other comprehensive record of proceedings as soon as possible after the meeting um attending uh our meeting tonight uh is myself Julian kades chair Lisa cor Roa Vice chair uh Dan Pearson clerk um and we have Mark Fernandez uh Paxton hell um Joe carallo and unfortunately it looks like Tom Avest was unable to attend tonight we she's here oh there you are okay yeah in the confusion so we have a full board uh and we have John Thomas our director and Megan harup our assistant so first uh item is review of draft minutes of October 28th and the only thing I am requesting on the minutes that that I printed it's really very difficult to to determine that they are minutes so uh the way the way it's presented so what I would like is the the headline or the you know first line where it says Norton Conservation Commission public meeting noticed that it just say Norton Conservation Commission uh meeting minutes okay I can do that uh and and then just to reduce ambiguity where it says agenda just add after it agenda for October 28th 2024 okay and and that will that should uh reduce any ambiguity uh and other than that I have no no other comments anyone uh have any comments on these um these minutes no if we want to streamline them even further I don't know that we really need to regurgitate the um public meeting announcement at the beginning but just a suggestion um you talking about on the meeting on the minutes yeah okay I can do that I think we just state that it was R you know the Dan read the whatever you want to call it oh this case for the next set of minutes it's going to be Julian and Dan so yep okay that was a production yes that's all I had are we ready for a motion I'll make a motion to accept the um minutes for October 28th 2024 as discussed second we have a motion by Lisa seconded by Paxton roll call vote starting with Mark and Lisa hi hi Joe and Paxton and T hi hi and Dan and I'll throw in an I so the motion carries um next item is um enforcement orders beginning with the YMCA uh fil board issue you want to comment on that John uh I think Lee and Mark are here today I think Mark you want to go review of what um you guys did in discussions that we talked about good thing I everyone Mark Marano with oill engineering 75 oilc Mass um we uh were engaged to uh delineate the edge of the area um that was previously approved on a 2022 uh conservation submission uh for an area that was subject to be able to be maintained within a jurisdictional area um so we we went out there we surveyed and we located and then set markers to delineate the area that was approved in 2012 the markers that were set we we actually used um red uh delineators you would see on the edge of a highway um we figured this would be the best uh solution rather than putting metal rods in the ground um we did shoot them also with our GPS unit so whatever reason if vandals ever take them away we can easily reset them because we have them on the mass uh grid coordinate system now and we uh we also produced a small little plan showing where the the markers were set and uh we furnished that to uh to Norton to John all right so um John does that address the U the issue that that we had so IT addresses knowing where the limit of the maintenance Corridor is physically out in the field but you know moving forward you know my recommendation was that you know this kind of get ironed out and closed out um because you know this is a Perpetual condition permit with Clear Channel and I've had some discussions um you know with the applicant's representative on I guess these Perpetual conditions because it's kind of a tricky situation because there's a third party involved with this maintenance work and obviously the the applicants um guess Bill board partner uh did not contact them before engaging in these these this work so I think as such um you know we should kind of put a little bit more responsibility on the Clear Channel folks to um close out this permit and file for a new one in order for them to you know I guess reup their permit uh because from what I get gather from this is I don't know if this is going to fix the situation with them conting us in the future I haven't heard anything from them um so that's also another concern um you know I met with them and they haven't reached out since they said they were going to but they haven't uh so I'm I'm a little little little hesitant on you know allowing this to uh be resolved for this I think it's probably best to close out this permit and have Clear Channel come in front of us for another permit didn't didn't we ask them to attend tonight's meeting so we could all be on the same page I think I requested that the last hearing yeah so that's why I say they that you know obviously the YMCA is the landowner so they should have the ability to close out this permit if they choose so and then Clear Channel can they want to file a new permit with the YMCA's involvement they can do so but I think that you know I for my my perspective is that you know there's there's a lot of parties involved with this and you know the why can you know request that they be here and if they don't come here then I I just don't know what to do for the why so John just to kind of circle back around what you were saying so we would how do how do you close out a Perpetual permit is it just an order of request for COC that closes it yeah so you would close it out with a COC and that would release all the we would we put in the in the conditions that we're releasing the Perpetual conditions within that order um and then for instance if Clear Channel would like to proceed with that maintenance Corridor the same Corridor that was you know originally permitted back in 2012 uh they can come in with a new filing okay and then let's say and we're gonna continue to keep the same what would it be a threeyear uh duration and then every three years they would need to reup it or is it four I think given their track record um I don't think that they're worthy of having any Perpetual conditions at this point therefore I would say that they would need to come in and that permit would be valid for seven years um if they wanted to extend it um so if they choose to you know if they're good stewards and they they showed a little bit more commitment and dedication to you know the sensitivity of the work that they're doing within a wetland I would have different you know opinions but it's I'm of the opinion that for instance they need to prove to me that they can do stuff uh you know procedurally and administratively that's outlined in the order uh and as as I've seen it doesn't seem that they understand the the ne necessity and also the uh consequences for for not following the rules okay and as far as the what the the seven years so is this a little bit of a different filing compared to a standard noi no it's would be the same notice of intent obviously I mean they're going to get a slap on the wrist for this one and unfortunately you know if they close it out there's no guarantee that the board's going to give them another permit but there really is no other alternative the other alternative is that um I I I don't know I don't know what the other alternative is for this one so I think what what Mark is asking it kind of it's confusing to me too is the the permit would only be valid for three years I don't know where Seven's coming in well if they wanted to extend it oh yeah that's at our discretion though yeah that's at our discretion yeah so I mean it it based on their track record I'd give them the three but then there's no way I would do it more than that if they couldn't prove themselves I would just give them onee extensions the bottom line is how are they going to find out they're not even this we're going to close this out do we have to send them a registered letter or something that says we're going to close this out and they have no more you know they don't have a permit they don't have a valid permit to maintain the vegetation any anym do this do you know who generated the original permit was it the YMCA or because it's it's on the YMCA's title right so they have it's on the YMCA's title so the YMCA has the authority to close this out because they're the land owner but whatever sort of agreements you have with Clear Channel that's that's where you need to yeah you know decide amongst your your team I don't want to say lawyer team but your team and see kind of what sort of um you know what your options are um moving forward and that that's where I I leave that up to you guys I just think that you know this this needs to be handled a little bit better with with Clear Channel and I'm looking for you know support from the YMC on this matter along with the commission's U assistance for for making sure that this doesn't happen anymore for these for this area yeah so I mean I was thinking after you know earlier today of ways you could um you could probably put some signage up in the on the on the on the edge of the road that notifies that says no clearing until you know you're you're contacted or something like that but um so they they did the original filing in 2012 I don't think they've cleared or done anything since 2012 so the likelihood of them having to do this in the next two years probably um they may not have to so if they file an I'm just thinking out loud if they file an order um to do the to do the maintenance um yeah and then after three years they would have to close that order and then open another one if they choose to do so um or ask for an extension they why could ask them to do to close it immediately after they've completed their clearing work too and not allow so it that's kind of in the Y Court to discuss but I'm just thinking so so Mark are I have a question for you I mean this is just one sign they must have signs all over Massachusetts and they must have other jurisdictions where they they have Wetland issues so is this a systemic issue that they just IGN totally ignore the requirements with regard to maintaining their their their signs I I don't have a relationship with Clare Channel on this one particular project and I you're right I mean there are signs around the country I mean around the around the state that uh maintenance this is an older sign though usually the signs are a lot taller yeah but but it it's still unfortunately it it it doesn't speak well for their their organization that the fact that this is a routine component of of how they do business and and it it's kind of falling through the cracks as if as if it doesn't exist I know so if what you're saying is is is you know if we're g to go along the lines of they they don't do it every I don't know eight years whatever it is five years it's all the more reason just to give them to make them come before us for an order of conditions and we allow it each time instead of in perpetuity so I'm going to make a motion that says that we um close this out an issue with COC to close it out and ask them to we're going to have to send them a letter uh by certified mail that tells them they have no more um Authority or permit uh permission to clear anything else without coming before us and um I would request that they send a representative next time they file not just the why so all right so we need to do I have a motion on the floor right now yeah we we have a motion so second all right so we have a motion by Lisa seconded by Dan uh roll call vot starting with Paxton and Dan I hi Lisa and Mark hi Joe and T hi okay that's an I from Dr and I'll throw in an eye as well so um Mark I don't know if you can inform them that they need to have a better mechanism for dealing with this and the next time they will just start with a notice of int 10 when they want to maintain the the vitation yeah I will um I'll notify them on what what transpired to this meeting and then uh with the why too will um John I'll get get you a uh uh an address to send the certified mail and and obviously it's going to go to Le as well but right um right and one of the other items that I will make sure if we ever do issue a a I guess new permit uh for them doing maintenance is we're going to put up have them put up a shity bond so there's no and ifs or buts about that so we're definitely going to make sure they put put into something like that because it seems like they need a little bit more incentive to keep with the um keep up with their permits so we'll definitely put that in all right are we all set with this then yep thank you thank you everyone all right thank you thank you next item is 2 280 West Main Street uh now King Barber uh is the business there and I guess they um they couldn't read a plan or something to that effect what what's the nature of the of the violation and do we have a representative we do I'm gonna let Scott Adams from AEG um discuss kind of what happened out there okay hi Scott Adams with Advanced Engineering Group representing King Barbers um so I I was a little caught off guard as I'm sure John was um John sent over a notice of violation as well as reached out to me via phone to let me know that there was some discrepancies between some of the work that was done on site and what was um previously permitted and approved um do I have permission to share maybe it's easier if I kind of share my screen quickly yes you do you folks see the screen or we do yes the plan on the screen yeah usually highlights but H um okay so as long as you can see so this you may look familiar this was back in February we had approval to um an RDA basically re repaving restriping reconfiguring some the main entrance way adding a handicap ramp to the building um no work was to really be done as part of this project in the rear yard um my understanding we're talking with um you know the applicants at the site visit when when John was there as well was that the uh the contractor they hired primarily to do the paving I think was too aggressive and possibly misunderstood some of what they were looking for when when they said the words clean up uh the rear yard uh behind the building um that was part of it the other part of it was none of the erosion control was put in place as should have been done step one as part of the project so what I had them directed them to do as soon as we were made aware is to not only install it per plan but also install a second row that went around the perimeter of um the new disturbance basically the edge of the new Disturbed area so it comes all the way up and around um currently so basically I did include some photos in the package I'm not sure if John if they if you supplied a package of this to the board if they have a kind of a copy of it um but there is some photos in the in the at the end that kind of show the existing and the proposed that kind of show the the difference between the two there was a lot of brush and kind of just overgrowth that speaking for the client was unsightly and their idea was to kind of clean it up and make it more aesthetically pleasing I know it was definitely not something that I had discussed with them or was discussed as part of our project but um there is a little bit of a of a language barrier there um the applicants are from Lebanon so sometimes there's a little bit Lost in Translation it's not an excuse I think it's more just the reality of the situation um that we explained it yet again in great detail about what they can do and what they cannot do and again the almost the entire property is within the buffer zones so it's been expressed to them again that anything they do basically to the site requires review and approval of the commission so there was a lot of piles of debris and if I can kind of zoom in here um that I think their idea was like to clean up and the the contractor that was handling their pavement came in to do that and he was clearly too aggressive in his undertaking and flared too much and was too too aggressive and you know the rear yard was was a grass area that is where their septic leech field is um and then they also put in a little bit of gravel in this location and they installed some conx storage containers for some storage of their um products at their facility so rather quickly we had them uh install their erion control measures and in the course of the past couple of weeks since we were notified they've removed the storage containers they've installed all of the um erosion control this was the erosion control that was installed when my staff surveyed the site since then they were still gaps in coverage for the erosion control there was a gap here there was a gap here and we revised our proposal and told them and I believe this is installed now to carry it all the way down and tie it together so that it's fully contained I didn't see anything and I I know John I'm sure will speak to it as well any sort of like damage or runoff erosion that kind of made its way into into the uh the Wetland area but um well that's because it hasn't rained so thank thankfully so um you're going to be putting up erosion prevention not just sediment control so that's the first thing I'm going to ask you to do I don't care if it's straw mulch Stone whatever it is for the winter and then I'm going to suggest that you hire a landscape architect to um come up with a planting plan for restoration of the entire area that was Disturbed okay understood so this is the general location of of their uh septic system here their conx was installed kind of in this area was is already removed removed they removed that as you know I think within a couple of days the conic structures were gone and then we just kind of tried to identify this really wasn't included in our in our previous survey because it wasn't material to what was currently proposed So within the last couple of weeks we had uh ecosystems go out and flag the Wetland line and we surveyed it as well as the rest of the backyard and then we kind of looked at the historic AO photos and um maps for that show the the previous delineation from plans of record to show what was previously disturbed because their septic system is technically in the 25 foot setback you know of the Wetland so a lot of this area was previously Disturbed it was well recently Disturbed but it was historically Disturbed I guess and maintained by the previous owners of this building so figuring out that area but there's definitely an area between the Wetland line um and the area and the um you know this edge of I'm going to call it disturbance new disturbance here that is was definitely new disturbance and new brush that was removed kind of generally in that area uh question for you yes sir who was the contractor I mean if presumably it's somebody who works in Massachusetts they you know presumably there's no language barrier there or is is these people drop out of the I don't know another state and they don't know the Wetland protection act or yeah apparently they didn't they're not familiar with it they're a Paving contractor they're not a typical site contractor or landscaper that would be more familiar with it but they they had equipment on site for the paving operations and that's the way it was explained to me is that the person didn't think it was a an issue I mean we all know everyone on the call I'm sure realizes that that's you know Famous Last Words um I have it I I find it I'm I'm skeptical the even a Paving contractor wouldn't be aware of restrictions with regard to the Wetland protection act but um I don't know I I guess we can just get it back in reasonable State now questions John so um I'm gonna give you a timetable to put down erosion prevention because it's going to rain November is the rainiest month so um I'll give you less than a week before the holiday to put something down there because I'm sure this soil's been exposed for days on end right it's been it's been dry it's been drought so it hasn't been tested right has not been tested so uh you need to come up with something and apply it ASAP so do you want the gravel area do you want this moved and well the area has to be restored and you're not going to be able to do that until next spring so what you're going to do is you're going to prevent erosion through the winter until you come up with a planting plan that you're going to implement in the spring so you're going to have over winter erosion prevention on this site I do not think you should touch anything that's out there right now think you just need to apply erosion prevention you're not going to be able to close out anyway till the spring even if they finished up because you don't have uh stabilization so right now you're going to implement over winter and then in the spring you're going to replant and then you're going to take this material out okay it's my recommendation does does this end I'm seeing the end of that sediment fence does that just end there or was that or does that wrap around all the way no we we told them to continue all the way to the fence I haven't been the site to confirm but now it's going to be or it should be by this point I can get back to the plan computer will cooperate so it's we I was standing or the photographer rather was standing in this area looking plan South and then we asked them to connect to that all the way to the existing PVC fence and then tie it into the to the STW swad silt fence in this area so that it's completely contained okay so anything that's exposed right now that is not paved should have temporary erosion prevention on it for the winter okay um John Thomas I have a quick question for you so typically when we do the kickoff meetings you're reviewing the installation of the settlement control line was it not in when we did a kickoff we didn't have a kickoff for this one oh yeah they didn't they didn't notify me when work was going on there so that was a big red flag that's why I went over there I saw activity going on the site noticed that work was done they did it probably in a weekend and that's when I uh called Scott and basically said what's what's going on and uh I recommended they're actually further on the agenda they actually have a notice of intent in front of us this is a result so that way we can kind of get this uh all conditioned out for what's what's actually supposed to happen moving forward I think there's a lot more here uh to just do an enforcement kind of um criteria I think we should just do a notice of intent for this one that way we can have it all more streamlined with conditions there's already I'm confused there already in order why would we do another notice there's no order this was an RDA oh this was an RDA yes oh you're right oh yeah remind me not to do that again yep well we generally don't have this kind of a problem problem oky do so my guess my comments are going to be relative to the the notice of intent but in the meantime I think we need to ask for erosion prevention ASAP and not wait it's part of the enforcement order forget about the notice right now it's part of the enforcement order they need to apply erosion prevention ASAP all right so it sounds like we're going to be um this discussing this in more detail I mean I agree that stabilizing this to some extent is absolutely necessary but um are we set with this until we get to the notice of intent discussion we should be any other comments and I guess uh well this is not a public hearing this is this is more so we don't necessarily have to have questions from the audience and the next violation is uh 93 Mansfield da that's at a at a location of some new activity I guess they put up a fence there yes they did and they cut down some trees I'm working with the owner right now to file for a permit uh he's supposed to meet with me next week after the holiday so I'm hoping to resolve this that way we can get him on the books and figure out what it is he's looking to do I told him that the fence is a little bit close to the high the Highway 140 and he might have some issues with mass doot so um everybody know where this location is it's um sort of difficult for me to describe it it's directly across from the old Norton liquers which is no longer there um and it was a site that used to have a circular building that subsequently collapsed um so so this is not something we need to discuss it's just you you issued the violation and then you're going to resolve the the violation yes I am letting the commission know that we did Issue a violation so I'm going to be working on this and if I don't get any Headway um there might be an enforcement order for this one as well okay and then we have a land donation discussion for rear Village Way yes Street this was the property that uh is in the I want to say the South Southwestern portion of well South Central um near 123 and South southwester Street um village w way uh this property is a highly sensitive environmental prop piece of property that is in flood plane and has a lot of wetlands and streams on it so um I actually went we all went in front of the select board uh recently um and they were in favor of this of accepting this donation to The Conservation Commission so I'm going to be working towards um making this official and I got to talk to the cell um not the the um the attorney that's helping the landowner donate the property to the Conservation Commission I need to work with them about getting this deed um which has been reviewed by Town Council approved um and issued before the end of the year so I need to work on that but I will need to get signatures from the Conservation Commission and select board so probably by the next meeting um so if anybody is free I think I need at least four signatures I think to make it official so if anybody's free between now and happy [Music] to yeah acly uh 16 Acres yeah it's a quite a big chunk of land and it actually connects a lot of other town and conservation pieces I think we have two no three conservation restrictions and I want to say five or six town Parcels of equal size in that area and this actually merges them all together so this was the missing puzzle piece to the 150 plus acres of land that were over in that corner so so you you mentioned southwester is it it's it south I mean sorry nor northwester sorry northwester that's what I meant sorry yeah north of chly pond it's actually right next to um the conservation restriction that was for the pre-t that was a discussion so uh and but it's across the across 123 from Charlie is that correct it's to the north yeah okay when you when you mentioned signatures John do you mean come by uh the office or come by somewhere else yeah come by the office so John do you need a motion I well I guess you already made a motion or the commission made a motion for me to work on getting this deed right finalized so I guess I I don't know do I need another motion to accept it I mean we could make a motion to accept it if we want to just make it official the select board made it official at the last meeting on Thursday so well it doesn't sound like we need a motion if they made it official then they did uh so you just need four of us to come by the office at some point all right I'll have I'll have a copy printed all right well I think I can do that and Dan you said you you can do that sure uh do you need it before I come in to sign the uh the other stuff Dan I will have it ready before you sign the other stuff I'll try to be as efficient as possible okay okay I actually I messed that up is it okay if I sign it when I sign the other stuff yes okay and it will give an opportunity to anyone else to see New Town Hall if you haven't already been there it's all right so we're done with that and we go on to um the anrad of 171 West Main Street which had been continued uh several meetings back or a couple of meetings back at least and uh we have a representative of the applicant for for that uh anr yes Mr chairman Brian D with MBL Land Development and permitting and I'm assuming you can share your screen I can well I believe uh is that right John or Megan [Music] okay can everybody see see sheet yes okay so uh this is the whole set of plans uh that we've prepared and we've updated um we just wanted to show you all the sheets that we uh worked on and um this is the overall uh Locus index plan it's really about 139 acres of land we're talking about and um based on our last uh meeting and discussions with your agent we've gone back out there we reset all the flags made sure all of them are there on the ground some of them were missing some of them needed to be reset we looked at uh the areas of uh potential veral pools one being this one here and the other two over in this area here um so they are um potential vernal pools that could be certified at a at another time and then um we also looked at you know the other vernal pools that possibly could have been up in this area let me get to that plan um I think it was up in one more sheet up in the Alana area there there was supposed to be some veral pools in this area thought to be on our property they were really off the property so uh there's in these areas here these there's no vernal pools in the in in this area of the site we also um investigated the um the Connections In The Stream over here so we identified the the stream and that this is the the bank mean anual high water we've got the riverfront buffer zone on it we also updated um or actually provided information in regards to the ivw and land subject to flooding we provided those calculations to the commission and John's office and proved that it was not isolated land so to flooding and then the um other um item which was uh discussed at the last meeting was to show this hydraulic connection uh from this Wetland system we identified the drainage line coming from this Wetland system to this manhole to another main hole but could not find uh where the connection is on the other side of the road uh so it might be buried or um you know uh just under the road somewhere but we couldn't find a culvert or another manhole or anything like that right now so uh you know further investigation of how that would be uh shown on the on the plan uh might have to be done at a later date when we file a notice of intent because we don't know where it is um there are I think uh John identified some tires that need to be removed um we've discussed that with the client and we can make sure that they're uh it's addressed uh you know prior to us uh you know filing any other types of uh notice of intents for any future projects at this site so I think I think we've addressed everything that the commission was looking for and also that John was looking for uh if you have any questions I'd be more than happy to answer them at this time Mr chairman uh just an overview I mean this is a huge collection of parcels yes but it's my just from looking at this the focus is really on just a small portion of it adjacent West Main Street is that is that a fair statement because uh no so if you look at I'm want to go back to the index plan so this view here that you see on the on the sheet Mr chairman right yeah yeah this is really in this area of the site we're talking about so the entire parcel is I'm going to go around it so here's the outline of the parcel okay so it's it's 139 Acres that one view that I'm talking about that had you know the the ver the Vernal pool here the Vernal pool here and in here is only that one sheet you you can see there's yeah yeah but but what I'm asking is uh a huge portion of this appears to be Wetland is that a fair statement yes there's a lot of wetlands here but there's a a a lot of Upland we've got we've got a large area of Upland in here in this area here we've got a large area here and here as well as over in this area here so there is there is substantial Upland here as well all right but but for example C 3.1 looks like it's almost entirely well all right maybe that she you're talking about is like right here so the majority of that one sheet is mostly Wetland so in that one sheet this is the outline of the sheet this is the only area on that sheet that's Upland yeah so it it depends of what you sheet the sheet do you go to that you know that has a lot of wetlands on it all right but but as far as the the the discussion about the the Wetland border that we are interested in I mean you have it kind of Illustrated there um like uh C 3.6 mostly Upland uh and then there's an Upland adjacent it and then you have that long Upland that goes out to 123 yeah so we have we have some Upland over here on Freeman Street and then if you remember we we did the single family house here for them on Baker Street and you can see that's the Wetland line that was approved by this Commission in this area already and then you have this you know strip of land here that comes out to West Main Street which is Route 123 so yeah there's there's still a considerable amount of of Upland uh versus uh Wetlands on the site so I have a question about the perennial stream that you're showing um so according to the quad map that I'm staring at it continues and it continues almost Due West so is there any reason why it stops right there uh that's the limit of uh The Perennial stream uh that was identified by the botanist um I'd ask you to ask the botanist what happened to the rest of it what happens to to the rest of that stream because if you're looking on the quad map it continues quite a ways so where's the evidence that it stops right there I'd like to see that because that's not that doesn't match the quad map it doesn't just stop there it continues on for quite a ways okay John Thomas did you look at that at all yeah actually Paxton and I were out there um I guess what one was it Paxon was it last week that we were out there uh yeah last uh midweek yeah yeah it t it takes a a Sharp 90 and heads uh towards the school property right it continues from what they're showing that's not the headwaters of it that's not the end of it so I know it continues because I'm staring at it so right if your Bist could update that yeah I I was going to say just when we were out there the only question was maybe whether that uh perennial stream connected with the ivw but um based on based on the notes from the the agent that we sidity um I bot this it does not connect did you I think I made a comment that I thought that it did but I don't I don't know Brian okay I'll have a look at it again if she's going to be in that area anyway I would just have her take a look at it I mean we're even in a drought and I thought that it looked like it made a connection and there's no connection for that that smaller one to the one to the north west of it either there is not a connection between the the Vernal pool that they're mapping in the ivw there's actually a well and near that ivw right there so I'm guessing there's some sort of sort of groundwater sarch charge there I don't know so John did you walk every flag here yes I did wow okay end up adjusting anything the flags are very conservative so I didn't need to adjust any okay I mean the only other comment that I had was the connection that leaves Wetland a as Brian indicated I mean obviously that would need to get identified because as we know any sort of outlet that flows through a culvert could be considered jurisdictional if it flows to another regulatory resource area so we just need to figure that out right so can you see this screen here yes yes so so even if it connects to the wet and to the South it's okay because it's labeled as a bvw I mean if they if they had said that it either didn't qualify the the the feeder right that's feeding it if they said that didn't qualify then I would question it but either way it's the worst case it's a pvw right on both sides so I don't have a problem with it thank you yeah it it really is BBW on either side um when we were out there there was no really no well well we're in kind of like a drought so we're not going to see flow but um usually when we have a um a drain connection you know a constructed drain connection the the wetlands have a buffer zone uh associated with it but this this this connection of this dream connection would not have a buffer zone associated with it so um and that's pretty common and if when when I've gone to some of the seminars at Mac as well as uh the D storm water uh regulations when they were ProMag gating them and this was this was an act actually a test case and they were talking about where buffer zones would end and where they would start up again so um um but I if we go to a a full project of this site I would anticipate that we need to know exactly all of the rims and inverts and the sizes and things like that uh to make sure uh that in that proposed project we're addressing any drainage concerns so so as far as the U delineation of the wetlands goes that there's no disagreement or controversy about that then is that a fair statement John I'd say that the majority of the Wetland Flags out there I had not did not need to change um based on my expertise um but I do agree with Lisa um that the perennial stream for accuracy purposes um they should show that as it goes off site towards the the Norton High High School um and then I guess double cheing that connection for the ivw there to that perennial Stream area because there is wetland associated with that area too um with that perennial stream I mean from what I gather it wasn't mapped yeah that was going to be my next question it's a little unusual to have that without vegetated Wetland yeah there is BBW associated with that okay so that needs to be shown as well so did you mean High School or middle school I'm sorry Middle School okay I I we can't show really Wetlands off of our property no but you can go up to the property line with the we go up we'll go up to the property if it come where it comes over here we'll show it up to here and then we'll update the buffer zone accordingly right we also want to make sure there's no BBW or want flag the B if there's if there's BBW in this area I'm pretty sure that she would would have found it but um but I'll make sure that she double checks it yeah the whole link of the stream please so it sounds like we need to see that resolved before we can close is that a fair statement yes uh so Brian is that um is that acceptable that we continue yeah yeah not a problem we we can do that I just need some time to do that um so well our next meeting but I I have to open this up to any questions first but just for information and value our next meeting is December 9th yeah that's probably too soon to uh get get the Bess out there survey it and uh then U get it on a plan and then get it back to you guys we're probably going to be in January by then then okay January what well we January 13th um I I guess we're going to scrub uh 1223 is that that that was my suggestion to the board well it it's in the middle of a holiday ambiguity because Christmas is on a a Wednesday correct we don't know when the holiday is so um all right so uh January 13th but before we consider a motion uh any further questions from either the commission or members of the audience and if we hear none then uh we can consider a motion to continue this hearing to January 133 I'll make a motion to continue the hearing for 25061 to January 13 2025 motion made by Lisa sign by Dan for continuation of this hearing roll call vote starting with Joe and Paxton hi hi T and Dan hi hi nort uh Mark and Lisa I I and I'll throw in and ey the motion carries uh thank you Brian yeah thank you very much Mr chair members of the commission wishing you all a wonderful and Happy Thanksgiving thank you have a great night you too thanks so our next uh hearing is file number 250- 11163 400 Arnold prommer Boulevard I think it is notice him in 10 uh but uh as I understand it everything is resolved here and our primary issue is just to close and then issue an order uh not to WR you down Sarah but I don't I don't think we have to do anything I mean is that correct John is that your understanding so one thing I I wanted to ask sir I haven't actually been able to is um how' the walk with d go uh yes thank you good evening everyone just for the records Sarah Sterns with beels and Thomas um yes my recollection matches the chairs um we had a good discussion on our supplemental information that was submitted our last hearing um and the commission uh discussed and preferred to continue to tonight to get a report on our site walk with U Mass DP on the certificate of compliance requests that is outstanding on the superseding order um for a foot bridge and replication area on a different part of the course so I'm happy to report that we had our site visit with mass DP um two weeks ago uh maybe it was last week um and everything went well um the reviewer was pleased with the fin product um in the replication area after two growing Seasons um didn't commit to a date on uh submitting a final COC but um that is in the works so he has not requested any further information um and it sounds like that is moving forward um hopefully by the end of the year he thought comments questions I have a couple questions on uh a plan set I know we had asked for some grading of a green area and I hadn't seen any updated plans I don't know if I missed a plan set or if this was information that might have been overlooked yep um we did submit a revised plan set with additional um detailed grading in the project areas particularly on holes 2 and 10 um that we discussed at our last Hearing in I think that was submitted in October with a supplemental letter as well um if you'd like I can share the screen to point that out to you if you don't mind sure of course so John were were those plans posted on Google on the drive because I only saw ones from August they still had an August date on them i' have to double check with Megan on that one okay so yeah I think part of the confusion is the I think the ones are posted just still say August okay okay but oh sorry continue sure yep um so you typically we just sort of list all of the dates on the front page and then again on this little side um panel here um so this is the second hole and you can see um Commissioners that we did add we actually collaborated with the golf course architect on this um since it is is part of the playable area and it's really um quite specifically um detailed so we collaborated with them and included their um proposed grading both in this area which as you know is in the buffer zone um and on the 10th hole this area also which is within the buffer zone we did um keep all grading outside of the 25t um local set from resource areas as well did you include the drainage also in that which was requested yes so that was an attachment to the supplemental letter um it was just a hand sketch that was provided uh could we clarify that and get that on a plan set because that just seems like it needs to be in there I did see the chicken scratch there yeah yeah this is what the club has um that you know unfortunately that doesn't that's not in the plan set and uh you know well yeah I mean this is not it's not an asilt we can't tell what's going on later on I just this is definitely missing information so the the irrigation this isn't dra well this is drainage this okay this is this is drainage um and it will some of it will be updated as part of this but a lot of it will be left in place but when we look at looking at the Green in the area in our areas where you I mean behind 10 what is this Mark I'm assuming that's a bunker from this is that a drainage draining into the Wetland what are we doing there I see another slash and a Dash on the hand scribble but it's just it's not clear and I think even someone constructing this wouldn't say that that was clear now my my concerns are where that water is going and I want to make sure it's going in the right place so is anything on that sketch a directive to the contractor that they have to install something or replace something or I guess that's what we're getting to we want to see the plans that are actually going to be you know used in the field by the contractor so we can tell if it was done the right way yeah uh you know I think think typically you know these are permit level plans so there will be some more detail added to Construction Construction level plans which is typical but I can make a note of this so do we want to potentially put a condition in that prior to a pre-construction meeting the applicant provide the necessary plans that are going to include this information that we're requesting would that resolve the the questions Joe I'm not sure because if I don't know where the water is going now and now's my chance to make the say whether it's going in the right spot or not versus later um you know it's already decided that it's going somewhere so my concern is is I'd like to know where it's going at this point if it's going into our Wetland areas and you know I'm fully formed of you know how the treatment is and if it's in an area that we have jurisdiction over yeah so is is that so can you go over the drainage patterns there now Sarah on those holes um I mean I think I'd have to go back to the club to get more information on that um so in other words in general does it just sheet flow you know on some of the holes there are area drains that collect it and the the you know the runoff is piped to different areas sometimes it's sheet flow it's really just very different depending on the area so I guess you know if you're looking at a specific area if you're concerned about this whole 10 we can look at that whole two is essentially being rebuilt um in an area where there isn't a fairway so this is probably the the focus of existing versus proposed whereas number two is just proposed so we can um you know certainly discuss that yeah I see your point Joe I mean if we're going to approve something we should know where the drainage is if it was any project we it would be what we required yeah well I mean we're not adding any impervious which is the difference here I mean it's it's going perious to perious water is going to infiltrate in a lot of the areas where that raindrop hits and others where it collects will just either be collected via a you know a drain or just will sheep flow as it does today so I don't but we are talking about you know high fertility flow and high fertilizer and nitrogen leeching and all these things into potentially sensitive areas especially in a golf situation yeah just not different from really what's happening in today's layout so I mean you know there's not a lot of change um but I I hear your request but I do think you're right that if we make it a condition and then if we have further questions on it it's going to be too late so what is your suggestion did we get an updated set that shows existing and proposed well existing conditions and then propose conditions on both those t's specifically with regard to runoff pipe drainage or runoff how they're treating it where it's going today and where it's going to go afterwards is it sheet flow is it piped that there are new pipes going in that's all the stuff we should be privy to Joe's right well but this the complication I see is it's pervious I and you know are we going to I mean we we I mean I'm not I'm not used to thinking in terms of perious areas where we do runoff calculation it's more impervious it's just it's not even calculation it's here's where the water is going today from between here and here it's going sheet flow it's going directly into the drink between here and here it's going be a drain today and it's going to be going drain tomorrow I mean those are I guess questions we need answers to so that's all it's just the drainage just like we would have any engineer walk us through existing and proposed I would say per say yeah yeah I would say on number 10 it will be very similar to how it's laid out today I don't think that the grading around the green or expansion of the green is going to tr change that dramatically in the buffer zone but we can you know certainly overlay that um and like I said on the second hole it's a new layout so um very maybe new drains on that one okay yeah I think we necessary you know so it's you know only in low areas where water would um back up yeah exactly so so typically we approve a pipe Network we approve discharges we approve on any project so I think that's where Joe's going with this is that we approve storm water management for every project and this is no different than any other project right I guess the only difference again is that we're going perious to perious so there's no change in cover type that we're proposing so you know existing and proposed in terms of just capturing the same runoff will be similar but I mean we can certainly lay that out hopefully that does it Joe is that I I think that I just I just want to make sure it's not going being piped into the drink or being piped into a sensitive area I just would like to see where the piping is headed yeah I mean fortunately the two ponds adjacent to these holes are man-made ponds um and used for storage so um we don't have a lot of you know naturally occurring Wetlands directly adjacent so um but yeah I mean were you not at the hearing last week un was or last time okay that makes sense not okay and I had reviewed the plan set and reviewed what I needed to review and these these were topics that I found missing and they were un questions I had in my notes are you satisfied with the grading that I just went over the grading that you went over looks looks acceptable yeah okay so really just a overview of existing and proposed drainage in these areas within the buffer zone correct and you have grading for number whole number two too yeah because I haven't that plan set oh I just put that up there you want me to reshare it no no we'll see it in our Google Drive so yeah dated October 22 is the last update I'll make sure Megan has that on it's not October 21st because that's the one I have on there is it okay I thought I saw August for some reason August was the first issue October but both may be there and maybe that's part of the yeah they're both on there one's under October one's under November okay um so are we asking for a continuation for that information to be available before we can issue the wait a minute the November information is just the draft order I don't see any plans I'm sorry one's under October one's under um just like the general folder is there any way to rename these it's you have to open up every single one of them to figure out what you're looking at we should have a conventional naming convention for all these like you know plan set this that I'm just seeing innocuous names it's not easy to have to open up every one of them so which one is it I'm seeing November 20th October 1st supplemental which one is it which one is the November or plan set the latest plan set Megan do you know that says October 20 21st okay that's not the whole set that's just the sketch I think no if you scroll all the way down it's attached to it oh okay so October 21st is the latest yes okay it was nothing in November okay I got it yep at our last hearing um it wasn't requested to um submit anything further for tonight's discussion so October last okay okay thank you so yeah Lisa you're muted sorry no you're you're muted yeah we can't hear you I know I was trying to get there so it looks like we need a continuation until um December 9 uh so Sarah is that something that U you're willing to accommodate so that means does that mean materials need to be in by December 2nd which is Monday I think that's a question for John or Megan I guess I would ask them to be in by December 5th so I can update whether or not there is a continuance needed for the next meeting okay let's yeah let's shoot for the ninth and we'll do our best to get everything in by the fth um and if we can't we'll just request a continuance to the January meeting I guess thank you if you don't get it in by the 5th we put coal in your stocking yeah sounds like it well I think the um the TPC uh person had indicated that they didn't it was no immediate they weren't doing it immediately so yes that's I'm not sure when their construction is planned but you know they do try to do after 20 years they're trying to do their permitting well ahead of schedule and getting things lined up so I don't think there's an immediate rush um I just hate to say let's go out to January now while we may be able to get the drainage plan pulled together relatively quickly so we'll do our best and if not we'll see you in January well considering the political CL climate Dan she may get a cold mine in her stocking um all right so unless there are further questions we can consider a motion for continuation of this until December 9th I'll make a motion to continue the public hearing for two file 250- 11163 to 129 Second uh motion by Lisa seconded by Dan uh Lisa and Mark how do you vote I I Maxton Joe and Dan I hi hi and Tama hi and I'll throw in an ey so Sarah I guess we'll see you then thank you thank you good night thanks good night [Music] um next item is file number 250- 1166 concerning uh 257 259 Mansfield Avenue for the construction of a uh training facility for um well Matthew I think can take it from there uh good evening everyone uh for the record map I'm basic with bowler engineering uh representing the applicant um NES group who is the representative of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers um who is the the property owner um if if you remember we were here back on October 7th um at that time we hadn't even received a peer review yet so obviously no no talks are closing closing then so I can just do a quick um refresher on the project uh in case uh the time could du the time passed and uh kind of where we are from there um this is right on on South Main Street um just south of the existing facility so the interational Brotherhood um of electri workers actually owns this building to the to the north of the property and they've purchased this property to the South um are you able to share your screen oh I'm sorry um that's one of my special te is to talk about a plan that I'm looking at and no one else can see so I noticed thank you for telling me before I go all the way through um so so now you can see the plan um the Electrical Workers uh they they own the property to the north here um which is actually in Mansfield is kind of an office headquarters for them they they purchased this property to the South um currently contain some some gravel Park and and drive areas a house and I believe kind of like a little Barn structure to the back um of the of the property the resource areas on the site are there's a intermitted stream down the south side of the property here that goes to the to the norn reservoir um and associated associated BBW additionally there's a a BBW that runs just all along the the east side of the property kind of upgradient of the of the reservoir itself um and as well as um 100-year flood plane which we're we're not proposing any work in um under exist additions um there is some vegetated areas where where there's existing Wetland a lot of the site is largely clear Disturbed and uses as lawn area um there's also some existing paved areas um within the the jurisdictional 25- foot um buffer area the the project itself is constructed an 8,000 square foot uh kind of training facility it's kind of a unique use um what they do is they do training for for um for training uh Electrical Workers so they'll have some poll set up and pole yards outside for some training for pole activities they'll have um classrooms inside the building they actually have a a twostory section of the building through the center here well they'll have um poles inside the building set up in inside for the winter so they can train them on how to work safely safely in the polls um aside from that just some 25 parking spaces some paved area around the perimeter site and then these kind of ston hatched areas are or outdoor um pole training yards well they'll have the the poll set up for for training um when we did the did the design and we're kind of doing the layout we knew the the 25 foot buffer was of of importance to the commission John gave us the heads up on that and we we had the the guidance from from the commission so we work to make sure we did proposing no impervious areas in inside the 25 foot area so so we've we've done that um additionally proposing to remove the existing um in previous areas within the the 25 foot buffer and restor just kind of allow it to can naturally revegetate itself so under existing conditions I think there's about um 2100 or so Square F feet of impervious area in the 25ft buffer which we're proposing to remove and and complete you know completely allowed to to naturally revegetate um additionally for work inside the 25 foot buffer itself we do have some very limited um kind of offg grading within the previously Disturbed areas which again we would plan with the conservation seed mix and allowed to revegetate um one comment we did receive from um from the commission itself and in John was we had our limit of work didn't actually go around some of the areas where maybe um there were some impervious areas we could take out so we've wrapped around all existing impervious areas to make sure we're getting that out um and then also we've extended the erosion control barriers to the to the edge of the lawn area to the Wetland line there's no natural vegetation in there to protect and that will allow us to to plant a conservation seed mix rather than the lawn mix that is there today um the project proposes a um a stone water management system that's that largely consists of subsurface infiltration uh Chambers at the the front of the building near near Mansfield Avenue um as well as uh a a rain Garden to the rear of the property for for treatment that could make into that that front infiltration area we did receive a a peer review from the the town's peer review agent uh pgb uh engineering um we received it we responded and I think on the 14th we received a letter back I think is essentially a clean bill of health as far as as far as that goes um none of the comments really changed the project as we're looking at it right here very technical um questions relative to the onm and some some details and things like that but the the heart of design is basically as we presented it last time to the commission um one other quick update I can give is we did meet with the planning board on the 13th last Wednesday and and received uh approval from them as well so we aren't expecting any changes from the project as a result of of plan planning review um that that said I'm happy to to jump into more detail or answer any questions uh the commission has uh so um question for John uh as I understand this resolves any any of the discussion that that we had last time is that correct yeah the only comment Matt that I would have for this one is that if you are going to dedicate areas that you're you're designating as buffer enhancement or restoration areas hatch those out and show those so that way we can see them on a plan like you said you were going to have those areas as being a restoration area with seed mix um just having those clearly identified so that way when we're out there you know to do the assessment and evaluation for an as built we know that that area has been restored um especially in the areas that are within the 25 yep yeah sure we do show a um a conservation seed mix hatch I think on our landscape plan but happy to happy to provide a you know whatever exhibits just to make sure we're we're documenting all that okay yeah I mean I can just reference that plan just I want to make it known that we should make sure that that plan should be used for the contractors oh yeah sure yep yep that makes sense um so when I don't know what if your guys going to have like a contractor plan or construction plan sequencing whatever you guys are going to do for construction just so that way they know before they leave that they need to restore those areas specifically and we're going to call that out probably in our order yeah I think I'd be fine with that and you're right it says it on the plan but those details do get lost at times so having it they can get lost they can get lost with certain contractors yeah I note that really slaps it in the face probably good idea would you mind Sharon screen again so we can look at the grading plan oh sure yeah absolutely I just had a few questions oh sure so can you um show us exactly where you're performing work in the 25 um sure yeah so as far as we're performing work this this gray dash line would be the the limit of work um but again a lot of that's the removal of existing impervious areas um that the driveway that comes down the side or the um there's the buildings that extend a little to the 25t buffer um additionally all this area within our limit is existing lawn area so no removal of wooded or natural vegetation within the the 25- Ft buffer um the areas where I point out where we we I guess need need to do work but there is a little offring we would propose um into the 25 fot buffer here again we would we would seed and and vegetate that with a conservation seed mix but as part of the interim construction we would grade in there again no removal of vegetation um so okay so can you just point sorry it's really hard to see the 25 here oh sure yeah the 25 is um this dash dot line U my hand's kind of tracing right now comes along here okay so typically when somebody's in the 25 the way to avoid it is to put up a retaining wall so is there any reason why you didn't put a wall on that side uh sure yeah so we do put it a wall to avoid it um back here and that the reason for that is there is wooded vegetation in here we didn't want to disturb um we also did it here again the same reason there's a wooded vegetation around here we didn't want to deser disturb here is natural existing lawn area that's that's Disturbed and maintained so rather than putting in in a wall which is a little costly we we figured just grade it down to grade and then we can stabilize it from there because either way we'll be restabilizing it so the difference is you're going into the 25 there because it's it's it's already well it's not Disturbed it's just it's lawn right it's vegetated it's it's it's lawn area lawn area around the existing hosts but actually I thought some of it was driveway that you were going to restore um yep yeah that's correct too I don't know if that exact spot is um is one of those areas but it's it's pretty close um that's through through here and is that pavement today pavement today correct yep okay okay so that seems like a fair swap then if you're gonna remove pavement there okay and then where else are you within the 25 uh as far as as far as as grading itself um well any any work in the 25 yep yeah we extended the the um the erosion control barrier to the to the limit of of tree line around around the back here into the 25 and the reason for that is um I think it was a discussion at the last heing was well if um if that area is Disturbed anyway bring it within the limit of work and plant it with the conservation seed mix rather than putting the erosion controls upgrading of that and allowing it to maintain as aono um wait wait wait wait can you zoom in there so you're putting the sediment control line at at at the edge of the existing lawn area see in my view the sediment control line should always be at the limit of work because if you give a contractor an inch they're going to take a mile so the sediment control line essentially dictates the limit of work it's the stop sign so if you put that all the way to the to the edge of the where the gray line is which is the edge of the Wetland then be equipment over there just like we saw in the last project so I don't think this is a good idea I think it's a terrible idea because you want to put up the stop sign to the contractor you want to keep it tight you want to put it to the limit of work yeah um you don't want to put it that far out yeah I certainly understand that the point I think um I don't know if it would be necessary but I think we' be welcome to either pull it in or if you wanted to put like orange construction fencing along the 25t buck off so that's not an area that they're regularly traversing in um either or I think the reason we we pushed it back was for for request to kind of allow that area to be seated with a conservation mix but um we we'd be amendable either way okay I think the F the orange conf construction fence is a great idea we do that quite a bit so just follow that limit of work that would be great and then is the flood zone on here associated with the um Reservoir yep yeah that's this um these lines are all dark and gray but this this 105 Contour that comes comes down here so just outside our our limit of work here okay can you tell me what the purpose of this is it going to be crushed stone what is that area going to be used for it's a gravel a gravel area so it's going to be used for for for pole training so I I don't think I'm qualified to to speak too much about it but I think what they do is they uh they set polls outside they'll um bring potential um workers and training out there and have them climb po um one thing I can say about it uh is there's no actual electrical equipment or Transformers or things that might um that might contain kind of like a an oil or or any type of um reportable chemical it's literally just dry wood wood po so I know that was one question we asked is just to make sure they weren't actually going to have any electrical equipment back there which could have um you know reportable quantities you'd be interested in that's not the case it's just simply climbing of of wood poles and trucks and equipment and I mean it almost looks like the shape of a parking lot is there any reason why it's that wide it almost looks like a a truck turn there be any any equipment in it or parking or yeah so I don't think they'd be per any permanent parking but they would bring in um I would presume bucket trucks back there um typically used for that type of work and and that would be part of the training so no so it's going to have to be plowed though so you see where I'm going with this I'm not sure why this is not paved and we have storm water management if you're going to have trucks back there oh pav it instead of instead of gravel yeah gravel gravel doesn't really work in case there's an oil spill people we can't control who's going to park here someday so if you have overflow parking here and there's a you know oil leak gas spill where's it going it's going into the groundwater so that's why we have storm water management right it collects it all puts it into a system so is there any thought about Paving this area because again we're not going to be the parking police and I'm not going to go back someday and say oh they only said it was foot traffic and no parking so if you think someone's going to park there at some point or there's going to be vehicle operation of vehicles and you're going to have to plow it then I think it needs to be paved and you need to have some STM Water Management over there yeah we do have storm water management um that the area will be collected as a a grass way I'll propos along the side of the the gravel area and a barer attention area here to to the rear so we treated it as impervious um as far as making it impervious I guess I defer to the to commission a little bit in our mind it's uh more of a maintenance thing than anything else the gravel itself is imperious and we we treat it that way um but so how do you plow it without ripping it up every time either if they need to get there in the winter you continuously come into ruts and you're going to grind that material down it's going to almost have the appearance of being impervious at some point when it's when it's compacted that's my concern it's not going to stay impervious for for long if there's equipment on it that's that's the question is you have an indoor facility with some of this training equipment do they ever use the outdoor facility in adverse weather conditions my I I don't want to speak in certainties cuz I just would hate to to to say something untruthful but my my hunt would be they would use the the indoor um facil just because they do have the ability to put poles in there but I just I don't know that for sure so yeah so I'm going to air on the side of caution and I'm going to say they're probably going to use it for parking and our operation of equipment because again I am not going to be the police here someday driving by going oh look they said they weren't going to park here and now they are so I would ask you to put to pave that at least put a curb up put something on that so that the uh I'd ask you to pave it first and look at storm water management for that area because I I don't believe it's not going to be exposed to equipment in vehicles yeah and we we did provide still oner management as if it was in previous area we just have it proposed as as gravel right so there's there's no catch basins there's no curbing we don't know if there's going to be other catch basins uh no we would have a sheet flow to a swell alongside of the of the gravel area which collect it and direct it to to a bio retention area yeah so again there's an oil spill that's that's why we call out for storm water management so I guess that's what I'm looking for here that's all I'll say I'm done done trying to beat this horse it needs storm it needs to be paved and you need a storm water management system in my opinion I I guess the only alternative is with regard to what kind of equipment would be back there yeah sure like I said it would just be um the the of of bucket trucks back there when they were doing a training session for in the PO yard and again we're we're not the vehicle police Julian so who's to say they're not going to use this for overflow parking or storage of the bucket trucks in perpetuity who knows we're not in that business and I'm sure Matthew's not going to guess as to what goes on there either so yeah from my perspective I would say you know did did the ibw folks request a gravel parking lot there they requested the the gravel training area they have this at a few of their different locations as well it's not for parking at all and they when we were laying it out it was never the intention for it to be parked they just want the area that they can put the poles in and and drive a truck in and do the training session so it's so clarification if they want a gravel pad area I presume that's part of the training with the gravel pad is that typical I don't know I mean maybe talk to ibw and see if that's a standard practice and training that the everybody goes through because you know my understanding is if it's if it's supposed to be gravel and the design is and they're supposed to be working on a gravel footing uh doing this work climbing these poles I guess that's my question is if it's going to be a pave surface and it's defeats their training or it you know handicaps their training I don't think they're going to want that so and I I do know they they tend to take the poles and move locations or put more in or or change the equipment so I think that is a big impetus behind the the gr I don't I don't know I'm just saying that I you know we we actually had a project in front of us similar to this where you know it was our recommendation to PVE a parking lot that was coming in for us as close to the reservoir but it was going to be paid for maintenance upkeep and whatnot so I guess clarification from your client is is going to be needed on this one if they're they're requesting it be gravel for some purpose um they can request that I mean then the commission can make a determination on it but it seems that you know the members are seeking an understanding as to why it's gravel versus impervious yeah yeah and I think I can elaborate on that a little bit so we do have a second area um up here with and this shows the polls the polls are graphical but they do take these in put them out um put them in different locations they have different things that they bring in and bring out so I think they they will be changing the the different pole layouts in here in drilling new poles in and out of the gravel area so I I think for that reason they wouldn't wanted um pavement when we've looked at their other facilities sometimes they'll have like a 12T wide paved ring Rob but then the area around it will be gravel because they're they're doing the same thing they're drilling the poles in at different locations at different times but you're showing those poles on the outside of the gravel you didn't show it inside the gravel sure yeah again again graphical the idea is that they have the flexibility to do um what they want in there um as far as putting the the polls at different locations I mean if that's if that's the case where they're going to be rearranging the polls for their training you know they're going to have to come in to us and give us that kind of information that that's going to be an active kind of management area that they're seeking uh to be able to install and remove those poles because we're going to have to put some conditions in for that specifically yep sure yeah um yeah we can provide more detail on that if if you need so or um or whatever you need I just need confirmation that's that's what they're going to be doing that way I can write up some conditions associated with that and just have those areas identified yeah I can confirm that right now maybe it would be helpful they can send us a if somebody can take a photo of one of the other facilities that looks like this what it's going to look like that would be helpful I think so that's that's a great recommendation Lisa y yeah you can do that okay then maybe maybe maybe doesn't need to be paved but right now um it's screaming to be paved because I'm looking at those poles and they're on the perimeter they're not interior to it so that would have been my first clue as to they need to use the surface so anyway so uh Matthew would you be willing to bring back that information to us in a continuation yeah happy whatever the commission needs obviously happy to get it so just information on how they'll use that area and I can provide um photos or or different they have other facilities like this so we can take take pictures or provide aerial of what those look like yeah and then um John did we talk about I mean so if those poles are they going to be are they augured in so you're going to have spoil piles every time you move those if they're on the exterior of the um the gravel as well so we don't want spoil piles hanging out but did we talk about um any type of um barrier to prevent them from clearing further into the resir you mean visual barrier yeah yeah that's going to be something that we're going to want from them at least posts at least near this training facility area in the back along with the retaining wall the retaining wall is going to be self-explanatory but we're going to have them put posts along the edge I think um probably starting where their training facility is uh to the I guess closest to or the gravel parking lot area with the posts or the poles and all going all the way around the perimeter to the other gravel parking lot I think those two areas uh specifically we should kind of call out for having the visual barrier okay do we want to post or do we want to split rail it's up to you I I I you know I've been advocating for post because they're more of a cheaper alternative than the split rail but if you think a split rail is needed in some areas I'm open I think that's a discussion we should leave up to them uh only for the be well-being of like ooser and safety things of having Clos in these particular areas just if someone's climbing poles there's potential injury and impaling people um hopefully I don't know it just doesn't sound like something especially right next to that training facility that's a great idea I I can ask that question to them as well um but uh they've been made aware that the commission was would would condition that there's to be no disturbance in the 25 foot buffer so the idea of some sort of demarcation I don't think come as a surprise to them so we can we can ask them a question okay so our next meeting is the the 12th uh is is the 8th well I the nth it's nth yeah the 9th of December uh is that u a reasonable time frame y yep absolutely so unless there are further questions from any anyone in the in the uh the meeting we can go ahead with a um a motion for continuation uh I'll make a motion to there you go Dan I'll second all right Mo by Dan second by Lisa um and uh let's see Lisa and Tama and Joe how do you vote hi hi hi and Paxton Dan and Mark hi hi I and I'll throw in an i the motion carries awesome have a great night to you see you on the nth thank you um thank you we are now up to a new public hearing for 280 West Main Street and um is the representative Scott yes sir still here all right so you may want to share your screen and go ahead with the plan playing on the screen yeah we see it okay so uh the kind of the purpose one of the purposes of today's meeting I should say was just discussions with with John that um you know the board was aware that obviously that myself and the applicant was taking it seriously and that we're working towards uh restoration so in the past couple of weeks as I believe I mentioned you know earlier we've become under a contractual obligation with them we've hired a wetland scientist to flag the property we've surveyed the property again picking up those Wetland flag locations as well as uh research you know the the previously Disturbed areas a little bit better compared photos and things like that that I've attached some near map images that we have access to as well I think you folks do as well and we're working towards coming up with the restoration plan at this point um the site's unique because there is a lot of work that was you know previously constructed within the resource of the buffer zones and within the 25t setback lines their septic system their septic tank things like that was in it P predominantly majority of this area has been previously Disturbed and cleared um the septic plan that was done in the early 2000s actually had a survey survey points on it that showed the the tree clearing at that time and we've actually reflected that on this plan and it's noted on here as well just so that the for the board's information um the Wetland Flags basically come down here Wetland Flags nine which is towards the corner of a the chain link fence and and U vinyl white fence and then comes across a couple of trees towards this way um to towards the plan South and then ultimately out towards you know West Main um street so again we will uh work with the Wetland scientist and it sounds like uh if it may be a request of the board to get a landscape architect involved to come up with a plan to show the restoration and uh it sounds like as part of this project uh we're going to immediately request as I've already texted the applicant to provide additional Ro control measures over all the Disturbed area I'm guessing at this point it'll be a straw straw um you know hay mulch I'm guessing is something that would be entertained by the board to get something down quickly uh yeah you just want to make sure you have that with tackifier okay it to the because it's going to blow away uh and you want it to a sufficient depth usually it's usually minimum three inches with no bare spots there's there's a spec I think with um I think EPA or D has one EPA has a spec spec for it y yeah perfect I've seen some people note like 100 pounds per th square feet or something it's to give people a guide as well of how much to purchase on site you know yeah but uh I can uh I'll definitely I kind of maybe I'll do a belt and suspenders I'll stay both you know but not to a minimum of the three inches as you noted yeah and we we had kind of given a concession uh in the initial discussions because some of their parking actually advances into the 25 foot uh but now you know they have all this disturbance also within the 25 foot so I think ultimately the design should try to restore the 25 ft to true no disturbance and allow some natural vegetation to uh reoccur in that I don't even think there's any top soil back out out here yet well I think it's been covered with gravel it looks like it was compacted on top of that right so I don't think it's going to revegetate naturally I think they're going to have to either remove that they're going to have to aate they're gonna well Joe Knows um I just want to be clear we're talking about the the same thing so the in the rear that was previously that was Disturbed I guess incorrectly um to put it mildly where the gravel was installed was back in this area here where they installed some uh shipping containers for storage that have since been removed but the gravel still exist and it's definitely Our intention to remove that put back suitable materials as part of our restoration the parking stuff uh requirements that was previously approved was was pre-existing parking that had been there for 50 60 years and as part of the previous approval in order to improve the situation we're actually removing some of the parking that was existing and putting back crushed own areas to allow for greater infiltration prior to you know anything heading towards so this area of removal was previously existing perious areas that we were removed as part of our last approval process yeah I I don't think anyone is questioning the previous approved work but you know toward the rear of the property yes I mean that whole area is is I don't know if it was bulldozed and then the gravel was put there but it was kind of I mean on top of that it looks like the gravel was even put right on top of of their uh I mean that appears to be a compacted surface this was this is where they installed those ship two shipping containers Side by Side Y absolutely and and it looks like some of it went over their their leeching area which is not necessarily good for that compact it so it's it's kind of like and after John left that day I myself had my office send me over their septic plans and I literally painted out on the ground and and informed them like you you guys were driving over your septic I hope you didn't damage it you know this is this is where your pipes are I literally we painted out on the ground so that they were aware and of the septic system issue which is a completely zate issue but um you know that's why I I just wonder about the the quality of this paper it's like I don't know them I'm not familiar with the name at all they mentioned them to me and it it's somebody I've never heard of before honestly they obviously have the equipment but they don't necessarily have the proper experience so is there it looks like there's material on the wrong side of the fence as well is it seems like there's something here that they didn't quite bring this around further enough yeah so that mat material because it's on the wrong side of the fence and if it rains could end up in the drink that material needs to be removed from the the back side I don't have photo after they Revis this yet again because this was a couple Generations so um I will be going back by the site but I I told them as as I think I mentioned previously that this wasn't enough and I wanted and I specifically told them it's going to be on beyond the limit of any proposed or any existing disturbance all the way around and then going down the fence line which is to my right over here and tying that in to um yeah I'm looking to see if I have another photo okay I'm just saying if there's any material on the Wetland side of the fence it should be taken out that's all yeah absolutely yeah absolutely that's the plan so I wanted them to car I was standing he well the gentleman that took the picture was standing with the about the fence looking this way so I said it's gonna go all the way to the fence and all the way down the fence tying it into the original approved location for these materials so I I have a quick question here the tree we're looking at appears to be girdled all the way around is this true or is this I mean it looks like a machine has rubbed up that against that on all three sides from what I've seen here the one with the blue ribbon around it yep I'm looking for if I have any other photos of that look like from the other side we could see it was damaged from the other side from the last photo that was looking back this way see from that that side right there same thing yeah so we're going to have to come up with something in the plan to deal with this now potentially hazardous tree that has been debarked so it sounds to me that um what we're going to be looking for is a kind of a restoration planting plan for the next stage of this um Scott I guess what's the what's the ETA on that kind of from your landscape architect we have not engaged a landscape architect yet only the only the Wetland scientist so I'll have Eng um there's a couple that I've used in the past um so I'll engage I'll reach out and see who has the bin with to try to take this on quickly okay yeah just make sure um that they can detail sequencing so if this material has to be removed so I want to see some sequencings that it it I don't want somebody just try to plant over this crap that I'm looking at here so they should do some sequencing there's anything to be removed or soil prep or or anything like that yep okay but thank you but stay focused on getting some form of stabilization on top of this for the winter yeah that should be in the next week or so yep I've already talked to him about that okay I mean it would be great if you could show us pictures of it at the next meeting that it's done yeah um Scott let me know when it's done I'll come out there take take some photos and um that way you don't have to make another trip and then um we can uh hopefully be in discussions about the next steps and kind of getting something figured out for the spring and kind of get a plan in place for seeing how this will uh come into fruition for restoring this this area that was altered okay I'll definitely do that I mean just speaking for the applicant I mean I spoken with him multiple times I know John did it's a family run business they've this is their first kind of groundup build um where they've the other two locations that they have they just kind of moved into existing buildings so it's they're a little bit of a fish out of water and they were extremely apologetic you know to it happening and they're they haven't complained about what they need to do and frankly the thousands of dollars they need to pay for engineering and Bist and you know landscape Arc attacks and they're like whatever we got to do to make it right that's what we'll do yeah and in another location it wouldn't have been an issue if it were a plan but um it's not PL well I'll tell you it's one of those Lessons Learned and I think uh next time we have a project like this it's going notice of intent no more rdas so or we write in the kickoff meeting to the RDA John I don't know it was a very basic project initially H you know we're repaving and we're adding a handicap ramp it was it was from my perspective was caught off guard when when John reached out I'm like I don't know what you're talking about there was nothing supposed to happen in the backyard you know and we kind of ran out there within a day or so we were on site with them but um it even fell off my radar because at one point they didn't know if they were going to move forward with the project you know um and so I kind of just I don't say forgot about it but they were thinking considering selling it you know at one point and for my so it just was a shocker I think to all involved you know at the time and you know I think they given really bad advice and it's costing them not only financially but time now as well because I you know this they they need this you know to move forward so um so I don't think they definitely intentionally did it we all know that we have these clients that it's better to beg forgiveness then ask permission I don't believe that's the case here and you know I'm not sure John's opinion he talked with them separately but no I mean people make mistakes all the time it's just now we need to correct them so that's where we're at right now so I guess um just have them give me a call after the holiday uh and I will make sure to get out there and take a look at this and snap a few photos making sure that the uh stabilization methodology is appropriate and then I can provide the commission some follow-up images uh for our next meeting and then hopefully you can give us a better understanding as to where you're at at the next meeting on the 9th um if you're available uh to uh let us know um where you're where you stand with the uh restoration um mitigation yeah that's good I mean the data the I've been kind of waiting from the Wetland scientist because he was sick as well um it's going around I had walking pneumonia I think for a couple weeks it was brutal but um he actually while I'm in this hearing just sent me his the data forms and his report and everything so the last step will now be um the landscape architect working with me to kind of finish off the plans all right so we're kind of looking at a continuation till the 9th then uh we have to anyway because there's no there's no um there's no number file number right but I mean there's got to be a lot of stuff put in place before yeah I the meeting is on the 9th is that is that the meeting date I don't yes realistically I I doubt that's realistic that I'm gonna be able to engage someone this quickly get them to do the design get our plans revised um if you want to put me on the agenda just in case I can provide like an update date for the board or if you want to provide me an update where you stand before the 9th sure um you know we can we can continue to the 9th and then if you want to request a continuance you can do so in an email y perfect that sounds like a reasonable plan okay and hopefully a subsequent meeting we'll have something for hopefully the board to vote on I hope you have something ready for January all right so unless there are further questions I think uh we can we can consider that motion I'll make a motion to continue the public hearing for uh uh file number unknown 280 West Main Street uh 129 so we have a motion by Lisa seconded by Dan for continuation of this hearing uh T Lisa and Mark how do you vote hi I I and paxel Paxton um Dan and uh Joe how do you vote hi all right hi and I'll throw in an i the motion carries so thank you Scott thank you have a good holiday you bet you too um we have a request for an extension I believe of an they requested a continuance Claire can't make the meeting so um okay so uh one that oad issued this is this is actually not just an oad right this is an actual development isn't it no this was an oad and this was about to expire so they sent in the request information um that way for instance it doesn't lapse and the criteria is that as long as they submit the request during the valid extension period or the valid period um the commission is able to uh Grant an extension off of that so it's before it expires I think it was supposed to expire the end of this month or the end of or beginning of next month um okay she's got quite a bit going on but she just wanted to get this request in she says that and she also wants to walk the flags with me um but she wasn't able to do that uh in this time frame all right so this is separate from what else is going on I'm not this is completely separate this is across the street oh okay I misunderstood that so they don't want us to extend vote to extend it right now well they they would like an extension I just need I told her that I want to make sure the flags are still up before we provide an extension uh okay okay mean we continue this and then when that's well there's nothing to continue we just don't take a vote until the next you don't take a vote till the next meeting yes but the clock is technically you have 30 days prior to the expiration to get your request in so have request in yeah she a little worried that we weren't going to approve it within probably 30 days but the request is in I'm fine with it yeah it also I looked it up it expires uh December 21st 20 24 so we're good okay okay so we we're still good so we bring that up next time then and um uh item five is put off as well y that's correct and uh anything else so we received a new uh project which hopefully everybody's happy about Mast doot submitted a notice of intent application for the new light that's going over near chartle pond area north and southwester I know Mark you're really excited about that I just saw you yeah give a little Glee there I know I know Joe's very excited about that I'm also curious to see how they pull it off but I'm I'm very curious saw the plans uh yeah they're difficult plans to read definitely they're they're let's just say Lisa they're Mass DOT plans they should be clear as a bell see I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to recuse though are you oh yeah I'm working you're working for them I'm working on Cape Cod Bridges and um Alon okay right I may have to because I go through that intersection I think we might all have to recuse no you should or anyone is that a triangle of land there is that in private ownership triangle of land down or does anyone own it the one that has the oh I don't know what it is is it a gas station is it a it's it's rustic fire that's been restored that that somebody else yeah yeah that's what it's called rustic fire yeah rustic Fire Control I think it is is the company that uses that building now right yeah okay hey uh not not for anything is there any reason why our website shows it shows Julian and I shows our um our terms are up in 2024 well that bad very bad I got another month I think that was supposed to be updated right in this year you guys both got letters and you both yeah I got yeah want to send me that proof I I'll I'll send it over to the people that are in charge were these letters from Washington uh a part of the craziness to come I'll I'll have to talk to that conservation director to update that website all right do that um I said wow I only have 30 days left this is Fant speaking of the of the website I I mean I've only used it well I've used it multiple times recently but trying to find the phone numbers of the various departments is almost impossible and I don't know why that is I think I found it by accident once W and have never found it since so I don't know if that is something that can ever be improved upon but I'm sure I'm not the only one looking for phone numbers usually it's by Department if you hit Department if you go to the department the phone numbers are not there really they're normally all the way at the bottom yeah sometimes they're in the banner at the bottom well that's weird I gotta look at this up right now yeah share screen John come on now I um I'm assuming I haven't gotten that demented recently but uh I'm considering myself at least an average user and I couldn't find it so there there may be a a an ergonomics issue there so you just scroll down a little bit and it's staff contacts and my phone number is there my direct line which I've been trying to take off no you're on you're on conservation yeah oh what were you trying to look up Julian I I was is looking up building building inspector and or any other department and it's just it's just not there but uh the phone number if you go to contacts directory all right I'll have to check this out but um anyway I there's no point taking up people times on my inability to use that website yeah if you just click if you click the top page of the banner it says government you click that and you can find the phone number of anybody's Department ah should I try that nationally see what happens you can try it right now if you want I mean the Chinese have done very well apparently from what I'm reading but that that's really all I have nothing nothing major um got a few small scale projects going on but nothing nothing crazy um it's been kind of nice uh as of as we haven't had a lot of projects which is good um been trying to put in a couple proposals for some um storm water Improvement uh things in town before the end of the year um let's see what else that's that's really it I think that I can I vul to the commission I'm looking for uh well obviously that land donation is going to help us out immensely for um the flood storage potential and uh flood resiliency so that's good and and uh yeah hope everybody has a good Thanksgiving same to you too just quick question where is the commission uh Conservation Commission office in the new building do you want to do you want to come take a visit yeah I'll just I'll just uh see for myself but okay Charly Paxton I I'll give you the directions so if you if you head over to 70 uh East Main Street um it's the building behind that and there's there's there's a sign but there's an active parking lot being constructed and the entrance is actually between the Old Town Hall and the police station so there isn't really a sign that says Town Hall this way it's like maybe about this big and it's very difficult for people to find I'm hoping they can uh find a solution for that once everything's complete it's it's a big yellow building near the Subway on Mansfield AV don't confuse him Dan don't tell them that it's the Council of agent community community building it's not right down um if you find Town Hall inside town hall signage is very good yeah but getting to count Town Hall that that's that's another matter you go up the elevator we're right on the right but if if you do take the elevator it's got about 10 buttons and I think the one you want is about the third from the bottom so no you just take the stairs just not a joke Paxton you just follow the trail of mud up the stairs and you'll find my office okay there you go all right all right well like I said I hope everybody has a good Thanksgiving and we'll see you on the ninth Am Happy Thanksgiving everyone I have a work conflict on the ninth I'm not going to be here all right okay yeah anyone else I'm always here oh and is is everybody okay with canceling the 23rd I forgot to ask that too I made a suggestion yes that because it would be yeah it's going to be a mess for everybody so should I throw out this print out because it's going to change for the the the Palmer thing I I hope it doesn't change a lot but obviously they're going to submit new plans so it might change slightly with some additional information on there with conditions um but if anybody wants to add potential conditions or make suggestions feel free to do so and I can incorporate those into the um the unique uh golf course that we have in front of us all right all right take care everyone youo take care everybody