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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=2aoXmbxf_yE

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Good evening. Uh like to uh call the August 3rd, 2026 finance committee meeting to order. Um first thing is roll call. So we have

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Zach remote. We are miss. >> Yep. We're missing Bonnie. We're missing Tracy. We're missing Kevin.

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We missing anybody. One, two, three. One, two, three. Eight. Nope. That's everybody. All right. Uh, if you'd like to stand for the pledge.

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Pledge to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. There's >> no Peter here to leave that

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the wrong way. >> A sporting event that's more more exciting than a boring VidCon. He told me last night. [laughter] Actually, do do we have the um minute? >> I

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just copy everybody or just one copy. >> One copy. >> One copy. Yeah. Um Okay. So, first thing on the agenda is approval of previous minutes. Did

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everybody first get that email? >> Yes. >> Last week. >> Two, did you go through the minutes? And three, did you get my email after 5:00 today regarding the minutes? >> No. >> No.

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>> Okay. Um, so I guess I'll take this somewhat backwards. Um, >> my my email

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that I guess didn't go to everybody was essentially a a philosophical view of how minutes should be written. And for those who were here on the 13th

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of July, the um prior year's bills had quite a lengthy discussion.

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And to me, these minutes totally wash over that and do not give you the flavor of there was a debate on that whole article.

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Um, and as I had written, I'm going to assume Mark and Christie got the email. >> Yes. that I'm not looking for a blowby-blow, but I'm thinking the minutes should

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reflect that there was debate and that, you know, we spent an inordinate amount of time deciding even whether to continue

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to even pay the bills at that point based on based on um our our views our differing views on how the information was being presented. So

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from from my standpoint, the 13th lacks that information. It's up to everybody else. you know, you've read the minutes. If you want to uh approve them as presented, if you

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want them amended, I'll leave that up to the >> the committee. >> The minutes I don't see in this packet. We >> Right. Is there a way to >> They were sent over with the

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>> I know, but usually we have them. >> Is there a way to copy this for sevenish people? I mean, I could pull it up in my email, but >> thanks, Justin. Appreciate that. >> Oh, wait. There's way more minutes. My

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bad. >> Yeah, there was a school. >> There's a lot. >> I'm good. I got the email. So, >> same here. >> Make it five. >> How many copies? >> I'm fine. >> I would like a copy. >> Nobody else? >> Everybody else is good. Yeah, I'll take

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a copy. >> All right. Um, so I guess we'll [snorts] table that for now until the copies come back. Um,

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Mark, if you want to hit either one of the new business items. >> Sure. Well, we have our treasurer here. So, why don't I go in and and give you a brief uh intro into OPED before I turn the the time over to uh Lindsay. So, so

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as you know, OPED is for health insurance for retirees. And this is an accumulated liability that we have incurred for people that have worked here for decades that are currently on still on the town's health insurance. And I guess what we're getting to is the

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level of balance, right? So, what's an appropriate funding? Everyone knows we need to fund it, but should we uh dribble drips and drags? Should we turn the faucet full speed ahead? Um, right now we're essentially doing a pay as you go. We've been around 100,000. Uh, we ex

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we put our foot on the gas pedal a little bit, increased it to 300,000. And what it does is it allows us to take advantage of the time value of money, which is, as you know, is incredible. So, we're it's about balance. We have to

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balance essential services, capital, uh, pension obligations, reserves, fairly compensating employees, and OPED is just one of these things. Um, so Lindsay will explain uh more about OPED from a technical perspective. [laughter]

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>> Thank you. I'm Lindsay Gracio. I'm your treasurer collector. Nice to meet all of you. Thank you for having me. Um, so tonight we're going to go over OPED. Um, you've all heard of it. Some people go, "What the heck is it? What do we do with it? And how do we fund it? and why do we have to fund it? So hopefully we can cover all those bases tonight. Um I

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hopefully all the questions that you probably have I can answer for you um throughout the slides and even at the end. Okay. Um so what is OPED? OPED is other postemployment benefits is what it stands for. Um so OPED primary consists

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of retirey health insurance, Medicare supplement plans and other postretirement healthcare benefits. So unlike the pension because oftent times people think oh well we contribute to the pension why are we not contributing to oped we already did that um so unlike the pension oped benefits historically

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were funded as a pay as you go basis um rather than being fully preunded so like our pension we're contributing every every year we have an assessment um oped it's kind of like an assessment but not really so we're kind of we're we're given a liability that we have to

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essentially hit over a year's course of time, hopefully sooner than later. Next slide. Why OPED matters? Um, the town has promised future health care benefits for eligible retirees. Uh, those future obligations create a

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long-term liability that must be measured through acturial studies. And I had to pronounce that 10 times before I got here because I was doing payroll and I did acruals. [laughter] Um, it appears on the town's financial statements. That's our audit. um impacts

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long-term financial planning and that really has to do with our general funds, moving those health care funds that are already in our general fund over to OPED. Um it impacts long-term financial planning and is closely watched by bond agencies. So Moody's and S&P, they do

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look at this every year. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Justin. >> It was more than just that one meeting. >> Thank you. >> Sorry. >> That's okay. The liability is spread over decades and does not represent an immediate bill due

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today. So the statewide trend I can tell you right now that every single meeting that I attend, every conference that I go to, OPE is brought up. It is something that is consistently on the forefront of all towns and communities, specifically with

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treasurers and town managers. Massachusetts cities and towns are increasingly moving from a simple reporting their OPED liabilities to actively funding them. So when I had first started my OPED liabilities that I was reporting I was sending over a healthcare census. I was sending over

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some information from payroll. That was pretty much it. Now it's much more involved. These the state is requiring more documentation, more information. Every [clears throat] two years we do go through um a study and it is reported every year but the study is every two

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years. Most municipalities have established an OPED trust. More than onethird of communities are now between 10% and 50% funded. Communities making regular annual contributions have accumulated meaningful trust assets over time.

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Bond rating agencies increasingly consider whether municipalities have established and are following a credible OPED funding strategy. I can tell you from professional experience, I have sat on probably three different rating calls. OPED is something that these

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ratings are significantly looking at. We this past town meeting, we um the town's people approved at town meeting the $11 million for the um school roof. This is something that S&P is going to be looking at. um they're are looking at the big picture of course of how we

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handling our funds but OPED is one of the significant things that they're looking at. >> So in this next slide go ahead. >> Um along [clears throat] that vein I'm not aware that it's negatively affected us in the past because we had the whole package and we were a

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well-managed town. Do you know if it's directly cost us a AAA rating to something else or something or >> It doesn't cost us a negative rating, but it certainly can help increase to a positive rating. So, currently our bond rating is a double A plus, meaning we're

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not quite there for AAA, but we're not as low as a double A. So, all of the OPE is one of the ways to increase that bond rating. It's one of the um the largest and most significant ways to increase it in a in a very short period of time. >> Thank you.

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>> So this next slide um it's [clears throat] kind of it really relates to how is the town of Norton doing. Um so in fiscal year in fall of 2025 we did invest $330,000 which is fantastic. Um however the years before that we invested 120,000 and the

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year before that 125,000. Um if you can scroll down Christie. So this is a direct snapshot at what's from our audit. So again every two years they do a study. Every year there is an audit. There's a company out there

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called Odyssey Adviserss. If you can Google it, go online. They are fantastic. They have done over 400 audits just last year for all the communities in the state of Massachusetts. Um Parker Elmore is the principal and he's wonderful. I've been working with him for for years. Um but

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he is the one who really comes up with these studies. Um this information here is often gibberish to a lot of people. What is the liability? What is the discount rate? What is pay as you go? What is a crossover rate? Um and hopefully in the next couple slides I'll

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be able to decipher that. Why communities are funding OPED? Some of the benefits include the long ter long-term taxpayer costs, investment earnings help those offset liabilities, improved financial statements, stronger bond ratings, and greater budget

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stability. Every dollar that we are investing today reduces future taxpayer cost. the big picture. Kind of going back into what that slide was. And again, that report came directly from our actuary.

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The OPED liability decreased slightly from 80.23 million to 79.8 million. That was down about 425,000. Plant assets, which is the fiduciary net position, increased from 130 million to

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1.56 million, reflecting growth in the trust. The net oped liability declined from 78.93 million to 78.24 million, an overall improvement of 694,000.

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The funded ratio improved from 1.61 to 1.96% through the plan remains significantly although the plan remains significantly underfunded. The town contributed $125,000 to OPED

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during 2025 compared to the 120 in OP in fiscal year 24. There have been modest improvements in the town's OPED financial li position. Liabilities decreased slightly. Trust assets increased and the funded ratio improved. Norton does not need to

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eliminate its OPED liability immediately. However, establishing an annual contribution demonstrates long-term financial discipline and strengthen the town's financial position, allowing investment earnings to help future retirey costs. The town

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of Norton's funded ratio is less than 2%. The plan still remains significantly underfunded. So essentially the big picture is we have to we have a liability of about $80 million. Currently we have about 2

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million in there. These numbers are based on the end of fiscal year 25. So these are not current. Our balance today is over a little over 2 million. And that's because we did contribute the 350,000 and then this past um town meeting was approved for $50,000. So

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when we're talking about the discount rate, which really affects our liability, that discount rate is measured based on the interest rate that we're receiving. So if we left these funds in a in a money market for 3%. It's not it's going to increase our

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discount rate, which is going to increase our liability. We are investing them so to the tune of about 12% um which is going to decrease our liability. So investing these funds over a period of time is going to again decrease that liability while

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contributing to the trust. So I hope that all makes sense. Does anyone have any questions? >> How how do you come up with the discount rate? It's something internally driven or is that mandated by the state? >> The discount rate is a series of

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information that is um it's a lot. So essentially what the actuaries do is they are taking all the census data from um every employee that we have here the town, school, you name it. They're taking it by the date of that they started. They're taking their age. When

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are they going to possibly retire based on their age? Um how many children in their family do they have? What is our in what is our health care cost today? Obviously we know that our health costs are increasing over exponentially over a series of time. um what is you know this past January I came from another town

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and January 1st the retirey health insurance increased 55%. 55%. That is 55% that I had to tell our seniors that that was going up. It was 55% that increased for the town as well. So by investing in these it does reduce

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the liability over over a course of time. Um you know I am not going to retire for probably oh goodness 20 years. Um, but by the time I do retire, you know, OPB, you know, is something that we have to have this fund, you know, eventually fully funded. Is it on

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fire right now? No. But is it something that they may require in 10, 15 years? Possibly. Um but it is something that you know eventually we can move these funds from the general fund to the oped trust and remove those

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millions of dollars and again saving the taxpayers money. >> So if I understand that right now right the discount rate every town has its own discount rate. >> That is correct. It's based on our it is based on our budget. >> Okay. And it's show >> it's based on a lot of things actually

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but it specifically starts out with our budget. So ours has gone up from 5 and 3/4 to 6% in the last >> So ours has gone up a quarter of a percent in the last year. >> Yes. So with anything um as far as the

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liability is concerned and the discount rate it also has to do with our contractual increases. It has to do with that increase of the health care costs. Um so like you know um Mark was saying earlier it has to it's a balance. these costs are going at an exponential rate,

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but our funds aren't coming in as much as we would like them to be. Um, which is why we're trying to invest them. So, when you're going with a discount rate and the liability, um, it does have it's a it's a a calculation that the actuaries do come up with based on um,

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an exorbitant amount of information. >> Thank you. From my understanding, Bill, if I may, um, our pension budget is almost taken care of. It's a couple more years before we

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hit our happy Well, >> that's okay. >> Our happy place. >> Um, so the pension is actually um the fully funded date in the state of Massachusetts is 2045. I'm not quite certain, don't quote me on this, but Bristol County Retirement has wrote it in I think at 2035 that the pension

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system would have to be fully funded. >> I thought, right, >> but that doesn't mean that Bristol County can't come back and say, "Hey, listen. Um, we we have a group of towns and we can't afford it. We're going to extend that out to 2038 or we're going to extend that out to 2040." Um, so those things that can be voted on

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between now and then. I thought we had something that was rolling off, Bill, in another couple of years that we were looking at possibly at that point. >> I thought it was the pension and >> that far out still. Yeah. >> Five or 10 years. >> Okay. That's what I thought.

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>> Yeah, >> Mr. Chair. Um I I did I thought it was um decreasing at in like 5 years or something at least. I know we have I guess my bigger question too with all of this and I don't know if this is a question for you or for Mark but I I guess I'd just like to see a specific

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plan as to we had a plan before it you know whether whether um it was a good plan or not right is up for debate but we did have a solid plan going in knowing that it was going to be you know increasing by x amount each year um and we had it a plan in our financial policy

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manual I know there's a lot written in there about it um so I guess I'm just looking for the the new proposed plan um that we have now is is what is I know we want to increase what we're we're we put in. What does that look like? Do we have

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a specific amount we're looking to put in? Do we have a plan 5 10 year plan as to um what those amounts would would add up to? >> Excellent question. So the way I understand the plan um was to increase

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by 5,000 every year. So I I before my time I believe we started at 100,000 and when I got here it was 115 then 120 and that was the pattern and I've you know from my time at the department of revenue and participating

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in these uh bond rating calls I noticed the common theme that um Miss Graasso also noticed and that the communities that hit their liabilities head on were the ones that were moving ahead financially and um

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just getting ahead of the curve. Um so I've seen other local communities do that and it's it's a way to have a strong base that way. We're not going I I use this as we're not going

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toward a cliff like Lindsay's right. There's no emergency this year, next year. But if we're not planning for these, we're pushing it to future generations rather than, you know, we have past employees, present, pay as you go, future. We don't want to pay too far

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ahead, but we we got to catch up. Um, so a balanced approach. Um, I don't have a number for you today what the goal is, but I will certainly come back with that. Um, >> yeah, I think that would be helpful for me because I know like we've always just funded it in this in the fall. So when

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it was all of a sudden in the spring there was an extra 50,000 that kind of came as a surprise to me. Um >> so you know thing things like that I think just if we can talk about it ahead of time see the plan see what it is that you're looking to um allocate each year

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um and what that looks like and how that projects out in terms of um helping us all you know overall financial picture. >> Yeah absolutely for us. >> Yep. And these things we we're always looking at, you know, as far as um around February when we're getting our

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healthcare rates and um approved by the board, you know, changing plans and and any type of benefit changes also helps the liability. Um the investments helps the liability. Um so it's not just a you know, we want to of course we want to

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continuously fund it, but it's more of a bigger picture. Um like it's it like Mark said, it is a balanced approach. These are things that we are looking at every year um to see how we can reduce this liability. >> Mr. Chair, just >> yes

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>> question for me when you say 79 uh 78.24 million liability how far out does that go? >> So is it 30 years from now or how? >> So that's as of that date. So that's usually it that number is based on the

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budget. That's the approved tummy eating budget. Um, so you can and then the liability is based on contractual increases. Again, that large formula based on um the age of our employees, who's retiring soon, um the the rates of

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our insurance, what kind of plans we have for our insurance. Um so again, it's it's a large um calculation that the actuaries are are coming up with. Um but that 78 million is is more because that's was a near budget um that

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particular fiscal year. >> Couple questions. >> Sure. >> Um so for the rating agencies. >> Yes. >> My favorite topic. >> Yeah. Mine too.

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So you know but Before last year, yeah, we had a plan. I I think we ultimately started at like 85,000 and then each year over the past like six or seven, we increased at five.

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So that was, you know, the feeling was that's what a the town could afford, b it was showing the rate rating agencies, hey, we're doing something and we're actually doing a

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little bit more every year. So then this past year, we put in like 300. >> Yep. >> I forgot the exact number. Are the rating agencies going to be more upset with us if we can't meet that year in and year out now?

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>> No. No. So, what the rating a rating agencies are looking for is they're looking for are you doing on a consistent basis? What is the growth? What is the percentage? What are you doing with the money? So, essentially look at it like your own savings account. If you're in if you're

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contributing $5,000 a year, it's going to grow at a much slower rate than if you're incre if you're doing it at $350,000 every year. And what do you are we what are we doing that? Are we leaving in a 3% mar money market or are we investing in and getting a 12% return? So those are the things that

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they're looking at. And they're also looking at the full budget as a whole. Um so on these rating agencies, when I tell you they're looking at everything, I'm pretty sure that they wanted my firstborn child. That one they can't have the second born though >> maybe >> that's theirs they can take that one [laughter]

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the middle child um but that is they're looking at everything everything from what how many students are in our schools what are the budgets um how many people are in a clerical union I mean when I say they're looking for everything they really do um take a deep

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dive into the town >> but they're not going to get upset if the next time we fund it you know the budget is such that we can only afford 150. So now we're showing h we jumped

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and now we got to pedal backwards because we can't afford that 350 again. >> No, it's not looked upon negatively at all. >> Okay, so one of the slides indicated that a third of the state is either 10

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to 50%. >> Correct. >> How much of the state is at zero? Um I don't have that exact number but if I had to guess in the conferences and um everything else that I have been at um there is there's many communities that

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don't even have a trust. >> Okay. And of the third of the state that is 10 to 50% funded how many of those communities compare to Norton or are we talking the Newton's

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the Lexingtons the Westons? Yeah, that is as of a whole through a perk. So, PARK is our public employee retirement administration commission and essentially what they do is they oversee all the pension systems. So, they were taking a look at the Plymouth Plymouth County retirement, Bristol County

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Retirement, Norfolk Retirement. Um, so they're overseeing all that. So, that's all of the communities within the state of Massachusetts. It's not just specific um specific pension systems. So there's no way to really tell.

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Is it just the better communities pulling that number up where the middle of the road communities and the lesser communities can't really keep up with it? >> Well, it still has to do with your

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liability. So even if you do have a trust set up, your liability is based on within that town. So whether you're contributing to or not, that percentage is based on who is contributing. Um so to answer the the the short question is I'm not quite certain what tons are

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contributing. Um so that's a calculation like I said that was through PAR where I got that information. Um but like I said the that percentage is based on all communities in the state of Massachusetts whereas they oversee the pension systems through the entire state.

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>> Okay. Thank you. >> Mr. Sure, Brandon. >> So, just looking at the state website right now, you can look up every town. So, I just looked up one quickly. So, Abington is only funded at.3%.

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So, you can >> Okay. >> kind of look up every town if that's what you're asking. >> Yeah. >> Kind of. >> Okay. I'm you know ultimately I'm trying to get at you know are the towns that we compare

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Norton to for so many other statistics you know for this statistic where do they compare to us or vice where do we compare to them? I understand [clears throat] >> the chair Zach.

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>> So I can understand this uh better. Is this basically to fund health insurance? Is that the liability? >> The liability is to fund the retiree health insurance. This is the employer portion.

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>> Okay. Now it's >> Okay. Go ahead. Other than health insurance, what what else is it? Um it can also include uh disability insurance um life insurance and dental insurance. We only contribute um to um um life

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insurance. So that would be the only other liability that we would have. >> So right now it's pay as you go. We're currently funding the retirees out of the the budget every year. And now we're going to fund this. At what point >> do we stop funding uh the current

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retirees and start withdrawing from the trust? Do you have to be fully funded before that happens? $78 million. >> Yeah. Um well, that's the liability, but yes, you would have to be fully funded before we transferred it over to from the general fund.

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>> Okay. So, that would be we would be all dead by that time. That happens. I [laughter] >> right then. >> Well, that depends how much we contribute. [laughter] >> I Okay. >> Thank you.

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>> Slow and steady is the slow and steady is the goal. [laughter] >> So, I know you mentioned that you're investing the money at 11 12% right now. Do you have any flaws [clears throat] to the investments so that if something catastrophic happened tonight, we wouldn't have a 20 25% loss in the

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trust? So, OPE is actually um it has to do with the prudent investor act. So, this isn't something that we can just take all these funds and go day trade. Um this is something the prudent investor is very very limited. Um the

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and that's the reason why it's very very limited. Um so as of July 1st of this year, the commissioner of banks does come out with who we can invest in. Um currently these funds are held with Bartholomew. So they are the um investment adviserss for this trust. >> But there are no guaranteed bottoms or

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anything like that. >> Nothing is guaranteed with investments. >> Any other questions? >> Anybody else? >> I was just going to say what Brandon said >> around the summary report if you want to look at those towns. Um

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>> Yep. And you can find our last um our last report is on nortonmma um.org and it's under the town. You can that's a full full report. Um we I'm just sent over some of some of the data for this year. So we will be updating um

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our figures this year. It's every two years. So we'll go through the study this year. If you have any other questions, you can email me or give me a call or stop by the treasurer's office. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> You're very welcome. Thank you for having me. >> Have a great evening. >> You too.

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>> I heard King Phillip sounds fun. [laughter] >> We like fun. >> Thank you. >> So, thank you, Lindsay committee. It's It's funny how the more more you talk about something, the less scary it it becomes. [laughter] Uh it's all about

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perspective. Uh so with with your permission uh shall we move on to King Phillip? >> Let's move on to King Phillip. >> So this has been a perennial issue. I'll I'll give uh Mr. Chicka a little um intro. Um this roadway is a private way.

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We're talking about both of these Charlotte A and King Phillip Road. So they the way they put it forward was a warrant article um where town meeting will be asked to vote to accept both of these.

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So I mean of course any amendments or you never know what'll happen at town meeting. Um for the numbers we have six uh sorry 15 private ways in Norton. We're talking about two of them on King

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Phip Road. There's approximately 93 privatelyowned parcels, so 93 potential uh takings. The town maintains roughly 700 ft of accepted roadway. The remaining distance is 3,700

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ft, so roughly 3/4 of a mile. That is a dirt road, unimproved dirt road. And there are some state laws and local bylaws that govern our ability to fix private roads. Uh the constitution for Massachusetts doesn't allow us to spend

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public funds for private purposes, but there are limited repairs we can make such as potholes and street acceptance requires a basic level of engineering so you know what you're accepting. You have to describe it so

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you can file at the registry of deeds so someone else could look at it and and say that's that's what it is. Uh there's numerous I mean we won't accept a road that's built today not up to standards. Um I I couldn't tell you the last road that we accepted probably

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the 700 ft of King Phillip Road uh what 10 or 20 years ago. Um so uh I'll I'll let Mr. Cha uh give you any technical details. Um I'm not aware of the specific figures. the cost. I know

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the committee was interested in like how much it would cost or what's the minimum amount we can do. Um, as I understanding it, um, speaking with the attorney from KP Law, which you have that in your packets, that's at >> Mhm.

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>> page 27 other there a number of interesting maps. We tried to include all the useful information well in advance of the meeting to give you time to digest it. Um, so, uh, essentially

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town meeting can approve it and if we're just approving a road, it's a majority vote, but if we're appropriating funds, it's a twothirds vote. So, you know, I'll [clears throat] leave it to the professionals to talk about what

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standards we need as to storm water construction. Um, I mean, everyone has an opinion and and people aren't shy about sharing it and that's what town meeting is for. So before we get to the font though,

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do um I can already hear constituents saying, "Hey, you accepted that road 30 years ago.

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You as a town did little to improve it. yet you accepted it. So, how do you fight that type of argument? Because they have a point that

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we as a town have accepted various roads. Most of them are on Reservoir Street a bazillion years ago. They're not up to any type of code. Yet, we did it. So, how how do you how

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do you say that was okay? That's not >> the chair. >> So Paul, >> I thought most of the ones down the the Grove were accepted because of the need for the sewage. So there was tied to that, but there was no improvements to

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the road that I'm aware of other than put the sewer in. >> You had to put the sewer in because of the the pollution of the septic into the waterway. >> And that's even before my time in this town. But uh it's

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>> but I mean I can hear that argument at the [clears throat] meeting. >> So no matter what else we talk about, you know, you I think we need an answer to that

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or it's it's going to be a train wreck. >> Sure. And and it's been said, you know, the school bus picks up kids and the mail delivers kids. And how can you >> kids [laughter] delivers kids? No, >> the mail.

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>> I stopped delivering >> packages. Sorry. Okay. I >> Good catch. Um, [laughter] >> so we're picking up kids. We're dropping off packages. Thank you. And >> you know, are we constructively saying we maintain this this road? I mean, that

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would be an argument, but we would say we haven't paved it ever since we installed septic in the road. That's why we paved it the first time. Haven't paved it since. Have patched up a limited number of potholes um because we've put aside a few thousand each year

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for private roads. I'm not sure [snorts] how, you know, not a lot of money, but that's what we're able to do. Just essentially patch it up. And then they want a more robust fix. And that would require us doing it every 5 to to 10 years. And not

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only one time, but I mean the options are to accept it, to not accept it. Um even a special act would be an option to accept it or or to appropriate money and then charge the

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residents a betterment for however much it costs to pave it. And then if we go that route, we're just going to have the same issue when it's time to do it again. So this is an issue that no matter what

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we do is going to keep rearing its head. >> Good luck at town meeting. >> Mr. Chair Paul, >> I would love to know how it was able to be hand changed in the 11th hour after it was filed with the state and everything from 4,400 ft to be accepted

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down to 700 and just be initialed by the highway superintendent and how that would pass muster mark just for yaks. Let me >> So you're referring to page number >> 39.

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>> I found that interesting as well. So, so you have before you the the documents that the legislature approved us to accept a number of streets, but it was contingent on the board approving it. So, I I

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wasn't there. I understand at the meeting someone made a motion. This is the 1998 meeting of the select board and they made a motion to amend the number of feet on

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King Phillip Road. Um, looks like it was initial. I can't even read that. I I was I was told it was the highway director. I don't know if that's true or not. >> Yeah, Carl. >> Yeah. So I mean that was my lay opinion

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is the first 700 ft straight and then the other 4,000 ft is winding. So be more cost effective to say well we'll take care of the the easy part and leave the rest for another day. Here we are at another day

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[clears throat] but um >> Mr. Chair >> Sandy. >> So, I have a sort of procedural question. Since this is a citizen petition, um we're doing this things a little out of order with this accepting it first before doing the layout. Um what is what does that mean? Does this

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acceptance is if a vote passes a town meeting where it's a citizen petition and there has we haven't followed the process, is that binding or is that something that now you still have to you're just kind of telling the select board the will of the people? So all

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laws that are passed at town meeting go to the attorney general and the municipal law unit. So if we accepted this road without defining the engineering meets and bounds, the attorney general might be within their rights to to declare that town meeting

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vote void. >> Has has anyone sat down with the residents? I know there's were some discussion on Facebook and then and both of you I think offered to sit down with the residents to talk about the process of accepting um this doesn't seem like

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the best way necessarily if it's not going to be um like this doesn't seem like the first step. The way that this article was written doesn't seem like it would be the first step. The first step would might be come up with a layout or something along those lines. Um, I'm

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just wondering is is this is this just going to in the end even if it gets approved just not really move anything forward? Is there a better way to move things forward for the residents if they if they do want to see this the improvements made the road accepted

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um rather than the article is the way that they it's been written. >> So so it's almost like a catch 22, right? like we can't put money to engineer it if it's a private road, but it needs engineering to become a public road. So, what we normally see is a group like a homeowners group or a group

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of residents on the street will get together and do a limited amount of work and then put something forward and then say, "Well, here's the scope of what we're looking for." And kind of try to get a consensus. I mean,

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here I've heard some loud voices. Um, and there's also been silent voices like we've got 90 something parcels. Um, who's to say that all these people are in favor of this? Maybe some people don't want a betterment. Maybe they

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don't want traffic on their road. um we'd have to take a strip of land roughly a thousand square feet from each of these 91 lots and we have to generally pay we have to constitutionally pay fair market value

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of that land. Um of course they can wave it. Um who knows how many of the the 90 some odd people would say no thanks, don't send me a check. But who knows how many of them would take the check and say well this isn't right. and they'd be

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entitled to go and litigate what is fair for taking that strip of land. >> And you also I I also noticed that it said they um they can do the repairs by appropriating public funds and or pass along all all or a portion of the costs

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of such repairs to the owners of the properties. So again, would would that be who decides that? So the way the legal opinion is written, I understand the town meeting would vote to decide whether town meeting is

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appropriating funds and they'd have to identify a source of those funds or whether they're proposing to put it a portion or all of it on the residents through a betterment which could be paid over the life of a road 5 to 10 to 20

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years. So it could be, you know, $1,000 a year for the next 20 years if that's what town meeting decides to to put each resident to make up for that cost.

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That's just a ballpark. It could be more or less. That's just maybe the average that's stuck out to me. I I don't have the numbers for the paving or for the amortization, Paul. So, um, Mark, the 4,000 ft of King

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Phillip Road, it's not dirt. It is paved. It's poorly paved, but it's paved. And I think the town paved that when they did the surge. So, I'm just not sure whether us to continue to maintain that at least to a usable

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standard because of the surge or not is an option or not. I >> Please. [clears throat] So, when when the town did the water and sewer, it was legal for them to pave the trenches that they put in the in the in

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the uh the road. Um that doesn't take ownership of it. That was just um you know, legally we could pave it. Since then, we've never maintained it other than doing potholes. So So we've

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kind of looked back and and said, "Well, is there something we could do because of that?" And the answer is no. The the town doesn't own that road. We do own the pipes below the road, that area below the road. So if it was a catastrophic failure of a water mane or

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a sewer, we can go back in and dig it up, but then you have to put it back the way it was when you found it. Um, no more. So that's basically why it is the way it is now. >> Mr. Chair, >> Sandy, >> um, Justin, how many years ago was that?

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You know, >> I don't know that off the top of my head. I'm sorry. >> So, I I guess my question is I mean that that road is as everyone who's ever seen it knows is is just awful, right? And I know that my road that I live on has not been touched in almost the 20 years I've been on there does not look anything

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like that. So I guess my my other question was is it possible that when the town put that paving in that they did not do it do do it well and not >> I think they brought it back up to a standard that was what there when they

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found it. Um rather than leave it dirt I believe they put a a a binder in grindings from mil pavement like you see in a lot of parking lots. So they they left it the way they did. So it's not a

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full depth road restoration like like you're thinking of. >> Was it was it paved before that or no? Was that the first time it was paved? >> I believe that was the first time from what I see. >> I think that was the first. >> I thought because I thought Dale last time said it was paved once before that. >> No,

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>> I don't believe so. >> Okay. I guess I I'm just wondering in in some cases they probably would have been better off if we left it a dirt road and and had stone dust or whatever you put the stone you put on um a street now paving it.

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I I I don't I don't know what the other solution would be like what what is the if we don't do this what's the solution so that they don't have a road that's just an absolute mess. I mean, one recommendation would be for them to get together

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as a group, as a um I think there once was a um neighborhood group, whatever you call it, um and pay for somebody to come in, mill that road, and put down,

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you know, asphalt on top, which would probably last them 10 years. um that would be a much less of a cost than if uh we tried to bring this up to the town specifications to what a road

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is. >> Yeah, I guess that goes back to my point of it. They they would have been better off had >> I don't agree with that statement. No, they >> it wouldn't it have been cheaper for them to maintain a dirt road and and put an extra layer of rather than milling it

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and putting asphalt down and >> I I can't answer that. I don't I don't know that. I don't know when it was done. I don't I don't know exactly what was done, but it it wasn't better off than a dirt road. So, I I said this

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back on the 13th. There was no like minimum amount that can be done to improve the surface of what they're traveling on

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yet not bring it to the quote unquote specifications of 2026 because they're getting mail delivery. If there's a fire, the fire trucks are

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going to go down there. If there's a medical emergency, the ambulance is going to go down there. And they go down there today and it's not to whatever these specs are that we keep going back to that you need to bring it to. Why do

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you need to bring it to if it has a history of not being there? >> For the town to take it over or for the residents to have a private road? >> I think a combination of both. Why? They're they're two different entities. For the town to take it over, it needs

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to be brought to our road specifications. >> But but but again, the all all the things down in the Grove and whatnot are not to specifications. >> I can't speak for that. I can speak for what it needs to be done today. But back

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then, I'm gonna think, you know, whenever the Grove sewer went in that there were specifications and we as a town, I'm going to assume here, just said the heck with that. [clears throat] Put the sewer in, pave over it, and

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that's that. They didn't take, you know, yardage, you know, left and right and and all that kind of stuff. They It's just paved. So, why are we getting stuck with it needs to be to this beautiful

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Beverly Hills level of construction? I I don't get it. >> I don't know how else to explain it other than it's the town's bylaw. >> That's how you Okay, so that's the answer, >> right? So, we need to change the bylaw, >> but it also has to do with if it's a

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private road and now you want to use mass dot money, if you want to use chapter 9 money, 90 money, it has to be brought up to certain >> No, but if we change our bylaw, but and excuse me, Mr. Chair, I think you were about to look uh >> if we if we have a bylaw that says it

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needs to be a certain specification, we're just putting handcuffs on ourselves, right? We could change that bylaw and the road. No, change the bylaw generally, maybe. Or >> so all subdivisions, too. [clears throat] No, I wouldn't want that. No, >> but that's if you change that bylaw,

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that's what you're doing. >> But based on what Bill just said, if we have other other roads that are at that level, that can't be true, right? I mean, how how do those roads exist? >> It is true. It is true. You have a bylaw that says you have to bring your roads up to current specifications.

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>> But we didn't do that. That That's what I'm saying. >> And I understand what you're saying, but I can't speak to why you didn't do that 10 years ago. I don't I don't know why you wouldn't have >> more than 10, but yeah, >> I don't I don't know why you wouldn't have, but if you change that bylaw, I can tell you that everybody that comes

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in with a development is going to say, "I don't need to bring this road up specifications." Well, actually, I can make a guess that given what the the area off of reservoir was,

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you know, those were cottages back at World War II time frame. And then as time went on, you know, people, you know, uh, made them so that they're four season houses. If you were to take

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the the bylaw that says it has to be to [clears throat] a certain standard, you know, most of those houses would no longer have front yards. Their their front door would go into the road because that, you know, that's how you'd

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have to, you know, improve each of those streets. So, I'm I'm going to guess that that the powers that be at that time said, "Well, we can't do that. You know, we can't take their whole yard away." And I guess I'm still thinking that same

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way of why would you have to widen this street to a bazillion feet when that's not what they're asking for? >> They're they're essentially asking, "Can we have pavement?" But I mean, that's kind of what they're asking for,

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>> Mr. Chair. >> So, if we change the bylaw language, I don't was is the language in here somewhere in this packet at all? The bylaw. Okay. Um, I don't think so. >> So, I I Yeah, without having without actually seeing it. Um, I'm wondering if we changed the bylaw, we would still

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have to accept as a town meeting any private roads to be if we wanted to make them a a town road. So the changing the bylaw doesn't automatically say now we have to take every private road and accept it as a public way. It just says

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if we choose to as a town meeting accept it as a public way we can do so without bringing it up to whatever standards. Correct. Or is our >> I don't think that's correct. I think it's two different things. I I defer to to Mark but I I I believe

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it's two different things. Meaning, if I'm building a subdivision and I'm coming in and saying, "I'm going to give you these roads when I'm done," they need to be brought up to the specification that's in the bylaw. But >> I I would think a subdivision newly

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built would have some sort of differing standards than something built 70 years ago. >> Mr. [clears throat] chair. It's my understanding that quite a few of the newer subdivisions don't meet our and that's why they're still private. >> Yeah.

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>> Quite quite a few of our subdivisions do not meet our standards and are still private roads. Uh >> you don't you don't have to you can build a subdivision and leave it a private road. >> Yeah. >> Just a long driveway in essence. >> Yeah. >> Just a >> and we're not even speaking here. I'm

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sorry. Is that right? >> Uh so this is a citizens petition, right? So what's the plan for the morning after if this should pass? Let's say regardless of what any of any of us think or the select board thinks or

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anybody else it passes town meeting now it's a public way. What's the morning after plan? Well, we are immediately liable for the safety of people tra traveling on that road.

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We'd have to get together a a plan depending on if town meeting appropriated funds or not would significantly impact our plan going forward. >> You're also liable for storm water remediation. here, which is a whole

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another thing that I haven't even talked about yet. The area that that's in and the conservation regulations that are down there uh that are going to impact this becoming a road um are astronomical.

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I think the liability like like uh Mark mentioned is is the key to that, >> Mr. Okay. So, before the before the water went in, uh before the water sewer went in, was that a dirt road or was it paved?

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>> I will have to get you that information. I understand it was a dirt road, >> Zach. I believe it was dirt and um kind of to piggyback off of Sy's comment. I believe that the highway department courtesy graded it all the time for him

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to keep it passable. But >> so what if we go back to that? >> What if we grind out grind up all the potholes, bring it back to where it originally was >> and and start from scratch, I guess. I I I don't know.

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>> Well, we'd have to mill it and then cart the millings out and bring in dirt. >> Just just one. >> Would that be better than what it is today? I mean, I I don't you know, I I'm just trying to see what is the happy medium here because even if this passes town meeting, you still [clears throat]

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got all kinds of liabilities and issues. Not to mention, I don't know where the funding is going to come from. >> And I'm just talking about King Phillip. >> Yeah, exactly. The millings you take off of other roads and you stockpile them.

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Correct. Um, I had one of my wings to my driver with that and it ends up in the heat of the sun becoming pavement for the most part. And when I decided to actually have it paved, I had to have it build up again >> because it gets harder. So, it's almost

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an easy way of getting it better. >> Mr. Chair >> Sandy, >> so you said the morning after we'd automatically be on the hook for all this, but that goes back to again my question from before where you said the attorney general has to first decide whether this is even

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this article is even binding legal whatever. Um and and you also said something about allocating money, but that's not part of the article language right now. So that could that still even be done at this town meeting? Well, they

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they would have to identify a funding source and and on the spot we would have to have the accountant confirm there are funds in that source and then town meeting would have to by twothirds agree to that. >> So would they have to amend the current

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article then on the floor of town meeting? Is that the way it's written right now is not >> I mean it's it's this is just a placeholder for now. I mean, as we progress in the over the next month and and my goal is to have all the analysis

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done by the end of August, so we can have plenty of time um that we're not debating this the week before town meeting. But >> my understanding though with a with a citizen petition is it has to go in how they wrote it, how they signed it. That has to be the language in the um

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warrant. >> We'd certainly run it by town council. If that's the case, then that's how it would go in. >> Okay. And the only way that they could then al could they even could they even amend to allocate money when that's kind of outside of the scope of the original article >> that's up to the moderator. Oh that

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that's right because legal could say that people weren't sufficiently noticed. >> Yeah. I guess that's my question too is like what so did any any of the citizens sit down with either of you to talk about the process? I I just I feel like

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this petition is not even going to get the residents what they're trying to accomplish. That's what my my fear is. Even if it passes, that it's not it's either going to be turned down by the attorney general. There's not going to be any money allocated towards it. You know, there's going to be confusion on

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town meeting floor. And >> I've had one resident one resident reached out to us and me and Mark were trying to get our schedules together to to sit down. And I think before that happened, this partition came forward. >> I mean, they usually reach out during

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snow plowing season. No. >> Would it behoove the town to be proactive and try to meet with these people to to get the big picture,

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you [clears throat] know, their side, our our side being the town, >> you know, with with whatever the real costs are and and all that kind of stuff. um versus just having a a a

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blowout at town meeting that could go on for hours >> is is that a thing like and >> like a like a forum like we did on the center of town. >> Yeah, that's what I was thinking like a public meeting where they're welcome to

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come and ask questions. >> Yeah. I I mean, who would would that be better than kind of the course we're currently on? >> I I mean, I don't know that we can unilaterally pull it from the town meeting warrant.

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>> I'm not even sure the submitter could pull it as it's been signed by the number of residents. >> How many How many residents signed it? I know the lead petition was Lucas, right? >> He was one of them, right? Uh 50, I want to say. really.

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>> I mean, it should be here. >> Thanks. >> In the packet, >> but I mean, he has indicated Lucas has a desire to work with us to I mean, we weren't consulted before he filed it, but he has expressed a

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willingness to to sit down and maybe come to a motion that would be recognizable at town meeting. Of course, I would tell them, "Hey, this one's not going to work or this one's going to work to avoid that

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awkward 10 or 20 minute recess at town meeting." And then we would have a definitive we can or we can't do it before we even start debating it. >> Mr. Sure. Um Mark, it's my understanding that you said we're not even able to do

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an engineering study or figure out the exact costs of what this would all be because it's still >> rough estimates of what it'll cost. >> But then you talked about like conservation implications and that just became like okay. So they're not even going to have an idea of what this would

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cost. So, if this did pass, like my mind's just going to like are we going to need to have like a special town meeting like to allocate money and will there even be any money to allocate >> for this to pass a town meeting? The town would have to willingly go blindly

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into it and say we accept this road. >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> And all its liabilities, >> Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, hold on, Gavin. Um I I just looking through the maps that we got. I know this is you know you just

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said not an engineering study, but there's one encroachment on the actual main home. >> It's a shed. >> That's there's one that looks like a the main home. No, >> there's one shed that's on there. >> So it's not okay. And and that was done

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rudimentary like that was Google Earth that we did to see the width of the road that we needed to be and and how much we were afraid that um like it was mentioned before we'd be on people's front doors, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So I think there's actually two. I think

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there's one on the side street too that has it Samoset or something. >> Yeah. Samoset. That looks like I don't know. Oh, I worry that that's the main house. And and I mean that's a non-starter, right, for a street like this to take someone's someone's home.

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So, >> um I really think listening to everything Sandy has thoughtfully presented here, it sounds like uh and others, it sounds like maybe rethinking this would be the best approach for these folks. >> Certainly meet with them. I'd be more than happy to meet with them and give

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them preliminary pricing and and options for them to go about it their own way. Um, I'm, you know, I was asked to come by Mark just to speak on on, you know, the DPW's behalf on what it would take for us to bring this up to town

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standards if the town so chose, which is obviously, you know, up to the town if they want to take on something like that. Like, like um, [clears throat] Mr. Gold mentioned, there's 14 other roads

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that are private. >> So, you just said that you have kind of rough estimates. Are you willing to share those or not tonight? >> No, I don't mind. I don't mind at all.

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>> So, what So, again, I'm not taking into consideration conservation. >> So, keep that in mind. But the rough estimate uh to bring this up basically to um to town standards

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um is $1.6 million roughly. Now that's considering that we would do land takings. >> So the 1.6 includes the cash checked uh address number two. >> Correct. But we also used an average of

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$241, which I don't know what the assessed value of that is. That's like a standard average that we used of past takings. >> Okay, >> Mr. Chair, >> this is strictly strictly for King Phillip.

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>> Hold on a second. Steve, Zach, did did you want to say something before? >> Yeah, I mean, I've seen a few of these meetings. I mean, they've come before the board of selecting uh several times. What they want is

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don't take any of our property, just pave existing like you like you did when you put the uh sewer lines in and that's it. And I think this is what they're after. I mean, I understand all the complexities with that and you know, whether it's conservation, bringing it up to standard, all that. I just don't

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know if there's a compromise here to avoid the mess that Sandy's talking about at time town meeting. >> Mr. Chair, >> can can town council weigh in on before it goes to the attorney general whether

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this article as written would even have any, you know, teeth behind it? >> Of course. because that might change their perspective or their tactic or um whatever. >> The other suggestion that we've thrown

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around is the fact that through a special act or or one of these articles that KP Law mentions a betterment that if it was voted at town meeting for

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us to go in and just mill and overlay the road and they got betterments to pay it back. I think that would Mark would have to look into that legally, but I think that would suffice, which I think is what >> you know, as I'm as I'm playing this in

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my head, what you're meaning to say is, is there an easier way to not bring it up to standards? That would be a way, but I think depending on how much that betterment would be, would it outlast the cost? Right. So to mill and overlay it, you're

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probably talking $150,000. And and I believe that's page three of the legal opinion where it talks about making a special act. So the town meeting would have to vote, then the state legislature would have to vote, and then we would assess a betterment

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for whatever cost was offered. would have to agree ahead of time to say, "Yeah, we we're willing to do that." That would at least take, say, even at an extreme $200,000 to mill and overlay it divided by the 90 butters or

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or whatever. Um maybe that'd be more palatable over a five or 10 year split and both parties kind of kind of get what they want and you don't have to widen the road. You don't have to worry about um conservation cuz we're not

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changing anything. You don't have to worry about um us taking over the liability. You know, it's not going to become a town road. We're just willing through a special act to pay for it and allow you to pay us

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back. Something to think about, >> right, >> Steve? text, >> but that could be also presented to them in a town meeting or a a informative meeting.

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>> So, the benefit would be $2,000 basically. >> So, five years. I mean, >> we could work on asking KP Law if that would fly >> because that is what they Zach's right. That is what they would like to see.

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Just >> redo it. >> Redone as is. Yeah. Bingo. >> And believe me, if I had the power, it would be a lot easier for me to redo it. But one [laughter] one of the two presenters a month ago,

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you know, hey, I pay taxes here, blah, blah, blah. I've always paid my taxes and this that and the other thing. So when you when you if we were to try to present them with a this is what we can do but it's going to cost you

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um we'll see how that conversation goes. Um, >> but I I guess the other thing, not to give away secrets of of Fincom, but if we don't have like a a

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a price tag that that we feel comfortable with, we don't have to move the article. So, you know, then it's going to become a town meeting. It gets moved by the petitioner though, >> right?

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>> Yeah. We we only move our articles really. >> We don't always put sometimes moves their own. Water will move their own. Sometimes we'll Mr. Chair, >> but they don't recommend, >> Mr. Chair.

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>> Echo what you just said. I mean, they do pay taxes. They pay taxes for my road. um you know and most most people's roads uh in town. So I think it would be nice to get this accepted. It would be the ideal, but we need to find

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some compromise that that doesn't uh overburden the town and and if we could just magically, you know, turn it into uh you know, whatever the Grove or whatever and just nobody look at it. Uh nothing changed here. It's been like this for decades. That'd be nice. But um

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it's nice to know just one last thing. It's nice to know that at least the limitations are bylaws so we as a town could maybe do something. It's not like a state requirement on roads that has changed in the last few decades because then we'd be toast. Um so hopefully

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there's some hope there. >> Mr. Chair, can we get a copy of that bylaw um or like a reference of where it is? Uh, looks like it's 13514 and 13516. That's right on

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there's a link on the website to to the bylaws. That's chapter 13514 and 16. [snorts] [snorts] >> Zack. So, Mark, what would happen? Yeah, I

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get, you know, I'm not a lawyer, uh, but if we just spent the $200,000, milled it, and paved it, what would happen then? >> What What's What's >> Who's going to scream? >> The state's not going to come and rip it

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up. [laughter] >> Um, but might we get censured? um >> liability >> if we spent 200,000 and went down there and just mill and overlaid it. >> I think if you get more >> I'm not saying I'm I'm not talking using state money, using town money. >> Yeah. No, I think if you got more than

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10 people in town that wanted to band together, they could sue you, >> right? >> Yes, they could. There's that's the 10 taxpayer rule for using funds >> illegally. any 10 people in town can get together

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and sue you. >> Not not to mention any of the residents on any of the other >> private ways are going to say, "Hey, you did it for them." You know, >> that's the can of worms you're opening. I'm I I understand their their feelings.

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I understand what everybody's saying as far as being a taxpayer. You are a taxpayer, but you're a taxpayer living on a private road. There was once a uh committee down there. There was once a >> association >> association down there um that's been

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disbanded over the years and >> there are a lot of other roads where people live on it that live on a private road that pay just as many taxes. >> Yeah. >> And they pay snow plowing and all that stuff on those roads and a lot of new subdivisions. >> The only thing we do there is a strip

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right down the middle for emergency vehicles. >> Yeah. Is does anybody know if the assessment calculation takes this into account whether or not you're on a public or private road? is that for sure the neighborhood is

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taken into consideration. So the more attractive the neighborhood of course the >> even though that's kind of subjective like our our assessed values that our taxes are based off of are all >> right I mean I understand these were originally I mean I don't know all of them but some some or most of them were

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summer homes like >> Mhm. >> So >> okay Mr. Chair >> Brandon, >> just Gavin to kind of jump on to what you said. Uh when my wife and I were looking at homes, one was on a private

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way, uh Lily Pond Estates, and they did have an association to pay to maintain the road to plow. >> Yeah. >> And the house was less. >> Okay. >> Because you had to pay into this association. So, even though that's I'm

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not picking a side, so to speak, but you do pay less. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> For the property, um, and it is worth less because of that. >> Yeah. Which makes sense. >> And it sounds like with the assessment, it it, >> you know, it's very >> should follow that if the if the market

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value being changed by that, >> there's a 400 a year. Thank you. I don't know if we're going to have an answer. >> I'm sorry that I don't have a better answer. I really am. >> I I I don't think it's it's not an easy

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question. Um I don't know how it's going to go at at town meeting, but it there's there's a lot to think about here. So, >> Mr. Chair Brandon, >> I think I thought it was a great idea to have some type of informative session. I

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think it would also buy a lot of good goodwill from the residents as well instead of getting, you know, people getting upset and tempers flaring it down. >> We'll work together to try and figure that out. >> Great idea. >> Yeah. Mr. chair.

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>> Wow. >> 20 years ago, you could get away with doing things without it was such a listicious if that's the right word or not society now that if you went in and did something and didn't meet the code and then >> someone complained that the curve was a little sharper cuz it's the existing

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curve and we didn't bring it up the code, someone dies down there in an accident or something like that, it's all the town's fault for not, you know. So, it it does open up a lot of cans of worms in this day and age that wasn't a problem 10 or 20 years ago either. So >> totally. >> Yeah.

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>> So all right. Um before we I guess jump >> Mr. Chick gets paid the big bucks. Uh is there anything else before we jump

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into minutes or are we good? Good. We're good. Agenda. Sorry, Mr. >> Mr. Chair, can I ask a question about the snow money? Did we get snow money from the state through their um

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>> I forget? >> Yeah, wrap. >> We will. >> Okay. And >> it's not open yet. >> And that's going that'll go directly into chapter 90 funds. >> It adds to it. Correct. >> And do you know what the was >> 96,000 98,000? >> That's half. It's

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>> in the 90,000s. >> There you go. for King George website [laughter] if you look up under Norton rap. >> It's just not open yet. They said uh August 6th I believe was August 8th. >> Thank you.

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>> Thank you. Um so now jumping back to minutes. Um, so again, from my perspective, I don't I don't think July 13th

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in regards to end of year transfers really touches the conversation that was had that day. Um, I' I'd like to see it amended, but um just one vote.

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So, if we want to first start with that one as to whether we want it amended first, whether we accept it as is,

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you guys tell me. >> I agree. to reflect more of how the conversation went. >> Okay. >> So, M Mr. Chair, >> yes. >> Um, so so I will note there's three main schools of thought uh with respect to

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minutes. Um, the first is just to record votes and many communities do that. The second uh the middle approach is to record the main point of conversations and then the third approach would be verbatim. Um and you could go anywhere

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you know along those three. It's completely up to the committee of course what they want to approve. Uh normally when minutes are circulated uh like a week in advance as they were here uh if someone has something to add or amend

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they would feel free to you know go to the clerk and that change would be made. They'd be recirculated or that'd be ready for the meeting. That's usually how it's done. Um again, you know,

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from my perspective sitting here, I would not want I would I would not want one person to say, "Hey, I don't like this

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submitted to the clerk to have it changed without the other people being involved." So, I'm very much against that. >> Well, well, then you report back to the committee what change was made. >> Thank you. That's >> right. I skipped that part.

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>> Yeah. [laughter] >> Minor details >> or I mean or recirculated or just brought to the meeting with, oh, hey, I just want everyone to know on page four, paragraph two. >> Right. So again, from my from my perspective,

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um, you know, minutes from all the years that I've been involved either here or at work or whatever, minutes are probably more to your number two,

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which hits the high points, but is not a 50page document on each each topic, you know. So, it's more than just, hey, there was a vote, six yeses, four nos.

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It's more than that, but it's not a blowby-blow of what happened during the meeting. And unfortunately, again, my perspective, this doesn't even touch

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the debate of what was going on that night of the 112s and this and that and that and this. It It doesn't reflect that. It just seems like we had a vote and that was that.

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And we had more than a vote. We had a pretty lively discussion that went on for a while and and the minutes should reflect that should be able to give the

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reader, hey, there was a topic, there was a discussion, pretty lively discussion, and then this is where we wound up. >> Mr. Chair >> Steve, >> I think the minutes written are fine at

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this point. I think it's you're making it very difficult, I think, to go back and forth. I understand where we're coming from, but you're getting back into the whole verbatim and it could get very long. These could be 50page conversations. I will agree with you

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that probably the only thing that I noticed that's missing from the minutes is probably the description of the formula they use for the amounts. I'd be happy if that was in there to accept the minutes as written. >> Again, I'm I'm just expressing my opinion.

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I I don't control if someone makes a motion, a second, and all that happy stuff that we do here, >> Mr. Chair. Paul, >> so almost anything that comes before us, we debate it. Sometimes lively, sometimes

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not. But when everything gets debated and everything, so that's why most minutes that I've been really just had the the meat of the the vote rather than details of the discussion. But uh this was definitely an exception where it was very lively. But uh but I kind of agree

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with Steve at this point that uh that might not be worth going back to. But >> you guys know what to do. I was going to say, do you have a suggestion for an amendment that that we could, you know, accept as amended if you had a couple

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sentences to put in or >> it it was really the the the whole trying to introduce the 11th 112s and estimating the last month

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in that, you know, that was supposedly some industry standard yet it's the first we've heard of it. Um it it was not

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we weren't educated to this change which made it even that much more difficult. Um, you know, those are the things that I think are missing here.

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You know, a word for word, what would I want to add into it? I didn't sit down to write what I'd add, but it would be on those topics of, you know, for lack of better terms, we

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we were I felt somewhat blindsided in here's what we're doing and we need this done today without any background as to how we even got there. >> Mr. Chair,

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Steve, >> I'll make a motion to accept the minutes with the amendment of description on the budget process that came out with the numbers that these department transfers were based on overages plus a one 12th

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of the total budget formula. I'll second that for discussion. I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion hearing? None. Zach.

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>> Uh, I wasn't there although I did watch the video. Abstain. >> Gavin. >> Yes. I watched the video thoroughly. >> Steve, >> yes. Sandy, >> yes. >> Paula, >> yes. >> Paul,

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>> yes. >> Brandon, >> abstain. >> I'll say yes. [laughter] >> Point of information, make sure we get this discussion in the minutes tonight. >> No, no, ju [laughter] just leave it out.

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All right. Thank you. So that was the >> 13th. >> So now uh May 4th, >> May the fourth be with you.

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>> [clears throat] >> Oh, >> thank you. >> I looked at it before. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> [sighs] >> Mr. Chair >> Brandon, >> I'd like to make a motion to pass the

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minutes as written from May 4th. >> Second. Have a motion and a second to accept the minutes of May 4th as presented. Zack. Well, any further discussion

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hearing? Nut. Zack. >> Yes. >> Gavin, >> yes. >> Steve, >> yes. >> Sandy, >> yes. >> H. What's your name again? Paula, >> yes. >> Paul, >> yes. >> Brandon, >> yes. >> I trust

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Frank. >> Thank you. Uh, let's see here. >> April, these are before my time. April 22nd, 2024 >> goes back a few years.

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>> Is the bull that they're yelling at us? >> I think if I watched [laughter] it and felt comfortable, I could. >> I wasn't chairman, so I >> couldn't I won't. >> Is that what it is in social media though? [laughter] I I just watched the 13th, so I wrote I was okay.

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>> Mr. Chair, >> Brandon, >> I'd like to make a motion to pass the minutes as written from April 22nd, 2024. >> Second. >> Have a motion and a second

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to accept minutes from April 22nd, 2024. Any further discussion hearing? None. Zach, >> yes. >> Gavin, >> abstain. >> Steve, >> yes.

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>> Sandy, >> yes. >> Paula, >> yes. >> Paul, >> yes. >> Brandon, >> abstain. >> I am a yes. Uh, April 29th, 2024.

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>> Oh, that's funny. Mr. Chair, >> Brandon, >> I'd like to make a motion to pass the minutes as written from April 29th, 2024. >> Second. >> Okay.

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>> Um, I have a motion and a second to accept the minutes of April 29th, 2024 as presented. Any further discussion hearing? None. Zack, >> yes. >> Gavin,

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>> abstain. >> Steve, >> yes. >> Sandy, >> yes. >> Paula, >> yes. >> Paul, >> yes. >> Brandon, >> abstain. >> I to him a yes. Is that

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that's it for minutes? Um, >> next meeting. >> So, I believe the next meeting is August 31st. >> August. >> August 31st will be the first uh meeting

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after the warrant is finalized. So, we'll we'll have the the full list. >> How exciting. Mark, will we be um approving like the transfers from the miscellaneous into the different um department budgets

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based on the contracts? Is that something that's coming up on the warrant or is that something we do separately? >> That will we have a a placeholder. Um so far, one union has finalized. We have a few other unions that are close, a couple other unions that are less close.

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So the ones that we settle will um be it will go to town meeting for ratification. >> Okay. Thank you. >> And those that don't settle before have to wait until the following. >> Then we won't be able to make it a payment until town meeting approves in

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the in the spring or I mean a special town meeting. But I I don't think it they would call a special town meeting for this purpose. >> No. Mr. Chairman, >> Zack,

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>> I don't want to uh rehash your last meeting by by any stretch of the imagination, but for the next meeting, can we have an explanation because I still don't quite understand it on how we're going to handle the year-end transfers.

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Can we add that to the agenda? Seeing there's been a change and and I I did watch the meeting, but I'm still a little bit of the fog on the new policy. We can, you know, at the chairs, we can certainly do that. Uh just briefly, we

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still don't have an accounting software in place that can get it down to the penny. I know schools do a PO for for everything, I believe, even if it's 10 cents. Um, we just started a electronic PO process, but we're doing 5,000 and

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above. That's pretty normal for municipal finances. We're not going to do a PO if somebody wants a office supplies, generally speaking. Uh, but we're looking at keeping records better every month, having check-ins from department heads. So, we're looking at

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better records. Will they be perfect? Not with this software, frankly. But can we communicate that farther in advance and coordinate? Sure. So then less likely to have the 112

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stuff. >> We we can talk to the accountant and then carve out what we really need. >> Okay. I >> I mean, frankly, even today, we just got surprised with a $3,000 electric bill that was in someone's email account that

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hasn't worked here for months, even though three people combed through this email account looking for bills. >> Mr. Mr. >> Don't we have solar? >> Mr. Chair, >> Steve, >> and I hate to bring this up, but that's a perfect issue, and these are follow-up

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items that bother me from the last meeting, right? Do we have in place an oversight of our budget process? It's disappointing for me to hear that scenario you're just talking about now that tells me proper controls aren't here, that bills can come in and we have

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no idea. I heard last time we had a piece of software that there was triggers that were switched off. I don't know if that's forever recently or what, but I just want to have the assurance that there's proper oversight in this budget. It's not the department head's

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responsibility 100%. It's a lot of it, but someone else has to be on top of this budget. Previous administrations would have meetings, they would be aware, they would understand, and they can have conversations. that seems to be lacking

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>> of of course that that will be instituted and we'll present that as part of the process. >> Okay, great. Um >> Mr. Chair, >> couple of other conversations we had just follow-ups the for our next meeting

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if possible the positions that were modified or adjusted and [snorts] what the operational efficiencies metrics were. Um, I won't let it go because I think we have to understand it. Um, it should be laid out so we're all on the same page so we can see them

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and tell the town's people that's what we had, right? We had some discussion at the town meeting. There's a couple of questions on the number of positions added. I think we didn't explain it the way we should have to the town folks, but I think that's our responsibility here. All right. And then the last one,

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um, we had questions about how we can get answers from the town accountant. There was a, um, an agreement made. I don't know if there was a process on how the fincom can go to that town accountant directly with our questions

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or if there was a process outlining the agreement. I think that was a follow-up item that we had from that last meeting as well. So, the process is generally through the town manager. I mean, that said, I'll pass any and all questions to the

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accountant and get right back to you. I mean, so is is there are there any questions you want me to forward? I'm happy to. >> No, I think we all had a comfort level. We could go directly to the town accountant for our questions, not

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through the town manager. It's just a process question at this point, right? We have to have a comfort level um and make sure we're getting the information that we're asking for um directly from the town accountant. It's nothing more. But I just wonder if the process is laid out in that agreement, we have to follow

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it. But going forward, this committee has direct access to the town accountant and that shouldn't be changed. That's just my feeling. I mean, I can respect that certainly. I mean, we're audited and it's it's just that this

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accounts $175 an hour. That that's the only thing. Uh >> so, we haven't hired a new one yet. >> Not yet. We we brushed off the job description and we'll have another fresh release 3.0 in the next couple days.

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>> Excellent, [clears throat] Zach. Steve, I think that's part of it is that they're still going through a temporary firm, but when we have another accountant in house, Yeah. >> Oh. Oh, I was going to say again, I didn't want to rehash this here. I mean, I think it should be pushed off. We should have a further discussion in the

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next meeting is we haven't had any software uh forever as long as I've been on the committee. And all the yearend transfers were limited to a handful at best. And now I saw the meeting from last week and

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I'm still lost at why we had 20. I don't even know how many there were transfers. We've never had software. We've always seems to always have worked. What's changed and why are we changing it now? Again, if we can leave it on the agenda for next meeting, I'd like to have dig

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into that a little bit deeper. >> [snorts] >> I don't want to say that might be an off camera discussion, but [laughter] >> come on in and chat. I'm available anytime. Tuesdays and Thursday

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afternoons work. >> I don't I I don't want to No, I I'll just just leave it there. >> Mr. Chair >> Sandy, >> um, one of the things Steve brought up last meeting was talking about the payment schedules for the um, the debt

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exclusions, and I had sent you an um, an email that that kind of gave a draft that we had received prior to the vote on um, the last debt exclusion. Um, I don't know if those numbers are still accurate. I think those were just projections at the time. Um, so if we

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could have something like that for all of the current debt exclusions, I think that would be um, helpful. That was like last Friday you sent that email I think. >> Yeah, it [clears throat] was like Friday night. It was a Yeah, a late email. >> Okay.

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>> Payoff dates and all that. The liability. >> Yeah. Just like what for each year. There was a a really good spreadsheet we had gotten that was was an analyzed like every um you know for the high school project for the um actually it wasn't high school, it was for the the fields, for the senior center, for the town

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hall. broke it all up, showed the the schedule and how it >> uh we I can certainly get with the treasurer and pass along the most updated one. I think it it will happen when we actually issue the bond for the roof. Um right now the the spending is

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about 100,000 a month for architect fees, but the beginning of next summer is when the roof will actually go up. So the bulk of the 11 million will be blasted in 3 months. Um and and that's when we're going to borrow most of the

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the funds. So it'll be that's when it'll be refreshed and become an actual amount, not just the projection. >> But we could we get the other ones also. I was talking about all the debt everything historical that are still out

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there that we're still paying for. And >> we we can certainly do that. Just just remember we're paying 175 an hour for it. So it, [clears throat] you know, there's a cost benefit. >> We're saving money though, right? >> The the benefit is that we're able to,

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you know, when you walk up to a a fellow constituent, you're able to intelligently answer some questions that they have. I I don't know if you can put a price on that. The fact that that we don't have

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someone internal You know, can can we do without this information for August 31st? Probably. >> Money all day. >> Eventually, we're going to need need to.

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>> So, so you're curious in the stream of payments for the last like say five debt exclusions on the average point. He was talking about having a calculator that that and that's something that you know I could even easily do, >> right? There is one on the do website I

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can send you the link >> that that talks about how does it break it down by each like how much of my tax bill is going to pay for the senior center to the um town hall to the fields

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to the roof to the high school right is the other one >> communities usually set that up right before the vote so you can put your individual assessment in then it will show your projected schedule out Right. But but

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unless I'm missing some of the points here, you know, people do ask, "Oh my gosh, we've had this exclusion, this this this, you know, when are they going to end?" So the the point is to to have that information to kind of say this is

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what you're you know, the average taxpayer is paying X for, you know, the Field of Dreams. It ends in, you know, 20 years. And I'm just [laughter] asking for the raw data. Like I'm not asking for you to create the calculator. Just who has these charts that that we had?

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>> So I do have some charts that I think you'll find useful that the treasurer provided a link for it's more like global and average than say high or low assessment. But I I think that'll be beneficial. Maybe we can go for that from there. with the chair.

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>> Zack, >> there's been Mark, there's also been discussions uh in the past of putting that right on people's tax bill. Uh I don't know what the logistics of doing that is, but it would be nice to get your tax bill and say, "Okay, this is

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your tax levy, this is your debt exclusions, and this is your bill." Where people could see it every time they get their tax bill. I mean, I I don't know if that's doable. something that can be looked at for the future, but um it would be certainly transparent

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>> or to put it again on the website that you you put the you know the calculator thing and >> yeah, I mean it wouldn't be that hard because every year's budget we have the levy, we have the debt exclusion we're added to it. So just find out what percentage of the levy the debt

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exclusion is and then just divide that by tax bill by the average homeowner. >> But the the average homeowner is going to need to know, you know, there are 15 debt exclusions in that big number and

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when do they >> a little more data intensive, right? >> Yeah. When do they die? >> And not to rehash last week, >> we have a lot of that mapped out. That's exactly how this started, right? Rolling it up to the taxpayers so everyone knows what they're paying for. Whatever we can do.

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>> That's a great question. >> New software, if it's on the tax bill, if it's calculators, but everyone has the right to know what we're paying for. >> I'll pass along what I have, and I think you will find it informative. It [clears throat] does have the list of debt exclusions with the number of years remaining for each one.

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>> Yep. >> Anything else? Hearing none or nothing. I would, >> Mr. Chair, >> entertain a motion to adjourn, >> Mr. Chair. >> Brandon, >> I'd like to make a motion to adjurnn.

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>> Second. >> I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? A Come on. Um, hearing none. Zach, >> yes.

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>> Gavin, >> yes. >> Paul, >> I mean Steve, [laughter] >> yes. Yes. >> Sandy, >> yes. >> Paula, >> yes. >> Paul, >> yes. >> Brandon, >> yes. >> I told him a yes. It's not that I got

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the name wrong. I got it in the wrong order. >> Yep. [laughter] >> Is it the airline bill or what?