like to call the September 29th Fincom meeting to order. In the room, we are missing Steve Hall.
>> Bonnie, >> Bonnie, I think that's it. And we have no one on uh in the waiting room. So,
that's that. Um, before we get in or get going, one, I have to leave here at 8. So, Brandon will take over at that point. Two,
if I send an email out, can people respond to it? Because not everybody did. Um, and I'm usually just emailing to either set up a meeting or to check something.
And it makes it very difficult to be chairman, which I did not volunteer for, um, without cooperation. So, I would appreciate it if you get one of my emails
to actually respond to it. Um, with that said, Mark done that before. >> Okay. >> Do you want us to? >> No, no, that's fine. >> Okay.
>> Okay. Uh, thank you, uh, chairman. So, on the menu for today are a few, uh, new items. Uh we purposefully chose ones that should be relatively straightforward.
The next meeting will be more finance dense. Uh and there's a couple of holdovers from last meeting. Um so I'll just go in order if if it pleases the chair. Um the first item uh
water operating budget amendments and the second item sewer operating budget amendments are just placeholders. So, uh, we'd actually ask the committee to table these items just so we're extra safe between now and town meeting just
in case we need these items. As of now, there's there's no request in them. >> So, do we vote no action if they're in the article? We can't leave it blank. >> Um, sure. I mean, you could vote the table
or no action, whatever you prefer. Um, which is it? Four and >> these are numbers >> five or three and four. >> It's four and five. >> Four and five. >> All right.
>> If you're following along at home, >> I would entertain a motion of no action at this time for articles four and five. Mr. Chair, make a motion to uh
uh for no action for articles four and five. >> Second. >> Have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? Hearing none, go for the vote. Brandon, >> yes. >> Gavin, >> yes. >> Tracy, >> yes. >> Sandy,
>> yes. >> Paula, >> yes. >> Zack, >> yes. Gosh, >> Kevin. >> Yes. >> And I assume. Yes. Sorry about that. >> Excellent.
So, moving on, the next item is engineering for PAS treatment. Uh, so as you're aware, our there's new federal and state guidelines for chemicals in the water. the the
state guidelines currently 20 parts per trillion and our water at times has exceeded that. Therefore, the DP has placed a administrative consent order. >> We are required to perform engineering
design for these uh to treat the water to reduce the PAS level. The federal lever level target goal is four parts per trillion. So it's it's a very expensive endeavor. Um all in it would
be in excess of 50 million. We're operating we're as such we're exploring all al alternative avenues to procure clean water including discussions with other neighboring municipalities to to enter
into agreements to um provide clean water at the best price possible for our rateayers. Um so while those discussions are underway, we need to comply with the consent order. Hence the request here is
for $445 from retained earnings >> to 445 or >> 445,000 >> slight difference. I wish wishful thinking.
Uh and if you have any questions, our water supervisor is is here and can speak more to the technical details. >> Mr. Chair, >> Brandon, >> so is this something that we have to do?
There's no debate or discussion. >> Good evening everybody. This is a requirement uh to answer the questions that were asked as part of the acco. Uh they give a list of suggestions to
the town based on other communities and issues that they've already dealt with to come forward and comply. We are looking at as as Mr. Gould said looking at u multiple different options including purchasing water from other communities who are already meeting the standards. We have to have discussions
with them to make sure that they're capable of meeting the the new standards should the numbers be lowered as uh has been indicated that will happen in the very near future. Uh so these are these are requirements. We have deadlines to meet with the acco to check off all the boxes get the information back to mass
D. They review all of our findings and then also have come up with a a joint determination as to what the best final solution will be. Is there a specific timeline, a year, two years, 10 years?
>> It is a staggered timeline. We have to get information back to them at the latest by December 2026. >> Mr. Chairman, Zach, my question is if we're exploring all options, including buying water outside,
why do we have to spend this money? Why don't we get those answers first and say, "Okay, if we connect to Taton, let's say, and do we still need this engineering?" >> We do. It's part of It's part of the requirement for Mass D to go through an engineering firm. Uh we've worked with
Weston and Samson and with Mass D to come up with solutions in the past for water quality issues, which is how we led to the iron and maganesees removal facility that we have now. This is the next step moving forward not just for PAS but also for emerging contaminants which will be other contaminants right now that are unregulated or have lower
regulations that will become a full-time limited MCL. So this is the first step in a in a multi-step process to bringing us to compliance and remaining in compliance as we move forward. >> And this money is coming out of retained earnings. >> Correct. >> And what is the current balance of those
retained earnings? Do we know? >> I do not have that number in front of me. It's um I believe one of the accounts is 5 million and the other is 3 million and change. >> Sound very close. Y >> and coming out of retained earnings,
does that then set up rate hikes immediately down the road? >> No. The retained earnings is monies that are specifically set aside for projects or anything like this or anything unanticipated. Um it's leftover monies from after we have our our cash returned
to us. Um we get monies from contractors every time that they connect into the water distribution system for connection fees. That all goes into the retained earnings also which is why it's used for this. It helps offset any major project borrowing which would then have an impact on the payback. Uh so anytime we
can use retained earnings to start off a project like this, this is basically a pilot phase of a multi-step process. >> We're going to try and do that at all costs. >> But is there a minimum before retained earnings becomes an issue? >> We do not want to deplete the the
retained earnings down to a point where it takes a very long time to come back. There's a minimum amount of recommended retained earnings you want to have in. And basically it's so that if you had a damage to your most valuable asset, you have that immediate funding available that you can put forth to start making those repairs while you're looking for
supplemental funding. So typically our number was much lower than it was right now, but now with the water treatment facility being our most valuable asset. Build cost for that was just around 11 millions. Replacement cost for that right now is probably around 22. So each few years that pass that number gets
higher. The retained earnings should also equal that distance between them and and see that it also mutually grows in an account. >> No further questions. And this is >> article nine. >> Article nine. Mr. Chair
>> Brandon, >> I make a motion to not article nine. So, I got a change. >> Uh, Mr. Chair, I make a motion to pass article 9 as
written for, uh, do I need to get into the specific amount >> for the amount >> for the amount of 445,000 from uh, retained earnings? >> I'll second it. I have a motion and a
second. Any further discussion? [Applause] >> Hearing none. Brandon, >> yes. >> Paul, >> yes. >> Gavin, >> yes. >> Tracy, >> yes.
>> Sandy's Yes. >> Sandy. Paula, >> yes. >> Yes. >> Zack, >> yes. >> Kevin, I to him a yes. Um, excellent. Frank, don't go anywhere. >> Not going anywhere.
>> Excuse me, Mr. Chair. Um, last week, um, Steve Evans was standing by on the line and never got admitted, so I just want to make sure he's supposed to be on around 7:30. Pay attention to him. >> Okay. He's not there at the moment.
Thank you. Next up, uh, construction of water manes on Elm Street. Um, everybody's favorite topic. >> So, regardless of what gets built at Reeden Barton, whether it be another
building, a house, whatever ends up going there, the water man is still in need of being replaced. it uh falls in line with the criteria that's in place by the EPA for unknown water services. So, this and many other streets in town,
we do not have record of of what was installed. All we know is the basic age of the water man that was installed. We know the material from repairs that we've made out there and we know some of the materials of the service lines going to the customers by doing repairs on our side. It all falls in line with meeting
the criteria of when what was known as a lead gooseeneck was used. So there's cast iron mains, there's AC pipe mains. Most of the water services going to the residents here are iron pipe. So with two rigid surfaces, they need a flexible coupling. What was commonly used in the ' 50s, '60s, and even into the 70s was a
short piece of lead, which is known to lead gooseeneck. That's the flexible coupler between the town water man and the town owned portion of the water service. This falls in line with the requirement for lead service replacements. Even though it's not a full lead service, EPA is still
requiring that we identify and replace when found. Gives you a few different options when you don't have plans to indicate exactly what's there or even any maintenance records that have taken place over the years, and I'm guilty of it myself. I've probably dug five services out there and replace the town own portion, which would have included
that lead service, gooseeneck, and the iron pipe portion on the town side. There's no record of it. You know, I was an excavator at the time. Others slightly higher than me probably should have been keeping record and that just didn't take place. So although my memory is pretty good and some of the others that work with us are, it's not enough
to meet the EPA standards by just saying, "I was at this house and I replaced it. I did this one as well." So they give you two options. They give you the option of digging each water service in three different locations, verifying what's there by a picture, and if you have to take an actual sample, they'll
take that for for a solution. that gives you the information that you can populate the inventory list doesn't solve the problem. So any of these streets similar to age and meeting the criteria, it just makes perfect sense to go in and actually start looking at the replacement process
instead of putting the band-aid on the problem just for creating a list. So we're looking at this. It was the first in line on our second tier of improvements from my 2019 master plan. And since then the cost has gone up from I believe it was 1.8 8 million or 1.9
million at the time for 4,500 linear feet and now we're coming in pretty close to the 3.5 million. It's only going to continue to increase. Um obviously uh you know cost of materials has gone skyhigh um since co
and since then um you know we've seen uh contractors also their prices have gone up slightly. So, we're asking for this to be considered with the added caveat that there is still the very random chance that we could see the grant be awarded to the town if something does
get built at Reeden Barton that meets the minimum criteria of why we received the 3.5 million grant in the first place. We don't want it this article to hinge on that, but we want to have it as a possible funding source because there is still some hope that something may be built there and it would be foolish of
us not to list that in the article as a funding source and have something build there and now we're not able to attach the grant money. So, the potentials there that it could be paid for in its entirety, although very slim. So, I just want to be very clear about that. What's the timeline for grant? No grant.
>> We've had multiple discussions with with the grant people um with with EPA and they are willing to extend again if we can get a commitment from the person who's looking to build there, which has been the problem all along. Um I personally think it's very pretty slim
chance. I know Paul has had some good discussions um with the applicant and uh continues to. So that that's where I'm on the fence. This still has to be done. If we can access the grant money within the time frame and meet all the criteria, it'd be a wonderful option for the town instead of returning this. But
please vote on it as if that grant was not here. >> But but still, what what's the time frame at which point the grant no longer matters because it's gone? Paul will have this number. >> June 2026. Yes,
>> I believe that's accurate. I didn't want to say it yet. There we go. >> Okay. >> Small window. If we get a letter of commitment, they will offer an extension. And that's kind of what the focus is and has been. So that's why I'm I'm pushing this as a need to be done.
But if you want to wait, I understand as well. >> And the funding source otherwise >> this would be a borrowing. >> Borrowing. Okay. Paul, at what point does a borrowing require a
debt exclusion when you're looking at $3.5 million? Would that be something that would require a debt exclusion vote versus not or or um what trick is it? So through you chair, if we borrow it, we
would have to be able to fit the bond payments into the rate structure, which on a 3.5 million borrowing uh would be approximately ballpark 300,000 a year divided by the rate
payers. Um, so if I mean it would be up to the water and commissioners if they wanted to increase the rate to pay for the increased annual bond payment. And if
that wasn't feasible, then we would look at a debt exclusion. >> And I'm assuming that's all rateayers and not just Elm Street. >> Correct. >> Yeah. Mr. Chairman, Zack, >> so where is this uh Frank on the on the
list of priorities? Uh put put the the uh uh the building there on uh aside of all the things you got to worry about in town, water, sewer. Where does this fall? >> This and the other uh streets that we have that we do not
have plans on are moving pretty high up in the list because of the the push from EPA. Uh this will be second to water quality and PAS moving forward. Not just this street but all these um unknown services. Uh you're going to see them hand in hand. And as we get closer to
the end where we're going to be held to either identify the services or replace them. We are possibly even looking at doing multiple streets as we did I believe probably 10 years ago. We actually had one contractor come in did uh pretty close to 7 milesi of pipe work and we actually got a pretty good deal.
It was a multi-year project. So it may be something we are forced to look at um in the near future. >> And now back to the grant is there I know you said it's slim to none but I guess a question for Paul more than
anything is without sewer there I mean the large scale project I would figure be be dead Paul DJ I'm the town planner. Um while we we've been talking to the uh the potential developer um she hasn't been
able to give us any sense of what you know revised plans that she has. But the reality is if you don't have sewer there the proposal that she had had over the last year or so was 150 units. It can't happen on septic. I don't know what that
number is the maximum but that it won't be as much as what she's asking. sewer uh is something that really promotes growth when you're really limited when you're on septic system. We hope to know soon what that number is, but you know,
until we know that for certain, we can't, you know, won't be able to uh identify it. So, if there was a this developer all of a sudden came back and said, "Yeah, we want to move forward with the project. If you go back and and and do the sewer,
which we've kicked down the kicked around for years now, would that grant still be available to do that again or is that >> gone? >> At this point, we're just going forward with water. >> Okay. Anybody
else? Paul, Frank, kind of piggybacking off of that, if the site could be developed with 100 units on a large septic system, would that be a requirement enough to get the three and a half towards this other project or is it counting on a sewer part of the project still in direct?
>> In conversations we had, um, we're able to modify the original proposal and the design. Um EPA was willing to work with us by removing the sewer portion of the project providing that it still meets the criteria for creating housing and jobs.
>> Uh a small smaller development definitely would do that there. Um again we don't really have any any numbers to throw until we hear that. We don't want to just speculate. [Music] No other questions. Do I hear a motion?
Well, before we do that, so so the motion has to be worded in such way that says borrowing but a grant is possible or do we just
nyx a grant or how do we word this? I believe bond council in the past has advised to include all possible funding sources in the warrant article. >> I think that's how it's written, Mr.
Chair. So, we just do it as written. >> Okay. >> Mr. Chair >> Brandon, >> I'd like to make a motion to pass article 10 as written in the amount of
$3.5 million. >> Second. >> Motion and a second. Any further discussion? No. Brandon? >> Yes. >> Paul? >> Yes. >> Gavin? >> Yes.
>> Tracy? Yes, >> Sandy. >> Yes, >> Paula. >> Yes, >> Zach. >> Yes, >> Kevin. >> Yes. >> I to him a yes. >> So, that is unanimous for those here. 3.5.
Excellent. Uh, thank you, Mr. Fornier. >> Very welcome. Thank you for your support, everybody. >> Thank you. Next up is Barrows Court drainage system improvements. This is a project as we're all aware due to the flooding upgrade at
Barrow's Court. So spoke with the highway superintendent and we performed an evaluation of the site and he is of the opinion and I support him that he can perform this repair hopefully within
the the current budget structure for this fiscal year. However, in the off chance that he is unable to, we are requesting $50,000 to replace the entire line um from the
the street to the the discharge. Um what what happened we think is a tree root grew in a portion of the pipe and we can perform a surgical operation with a backhoe
and excise that portion of the pipe, clean it out or replace that short portion. Um, I'm probably butchering this. Um, but and this is to avoid an estimate from Weston and Samson who
wanted 300 to $400,000 just to evaluate what needs to be done. So, our intent of c intended course of action is to try to do do it within this year's budget. If not, do the $50,000 fix. And if you have
any questions, Jared is here with the technical details. >> Mr. Chair, I have um two questions. One is I I think we talked about this last the last not the last week, the week week before there was money approved at town meeting to study this.
>> Um I don't remember what the amount was. Could that be used for this towards this? >> Good evening. >> Potentially I can consult our accountant while Jared talks. >> Sure. I'm not exactly sure what account you're referring to, but there was a
small portion for for storm water for our department to do some of the other repairs that were related to that year's um flooding events. There was some about half of it was already used, maybe a little more summer street. There was an improvement to try to divert some of the water that was coming out of that wershed, which also affected Barrows
Court. Um there were a few small few um drainage areas around town, 44 South Worester in front of the golf course. there was a residence that was um flooding out and um we put a portion of that money towards that unless it's a different account that I'm not aware of.
>> I thought it was an an article for um to to do like some sort of study basic study but nothing like 300,000 but I thought there was a basic study related to possibly conservation maybe. >> Yeah. I'm not sure where that where that ended up. Um my other question is I know
when this was first looked at last year um it was the the opinion at that time was that just replacing the pipes that wasn't the issue that there was a bigger issue and that's why the um engineering study at that time was felt like it we needed that. So what I guess has changed
since then? >> Yep. So just to kind of fill you with the background you know what happened over time. So um initially and still it's not we're not completely certain all the contributing factors but obviously the first place to start with is to you know clear the
outflow pipe and make sure it's in good condition as possible. So you know you rule that out. Um originally we used our equipment um the water department's jeter to flush out the pipe and um a camera that we had. Without a vac truck it's hard to remove the thousands of
gallons of water that's flooding into the pipe and in the pipe to get a clear picture of what's going on. So, with our equipment, we couldn't really see exactly what was going on. Water was flowing. We assumed it was working good enough. Nothing too crazy had changed in the at least the 12 years I've been here. Um, eventually there was
speculation that, you know, there's still a blockage in the pipe. We um hired a outside contractor with a with better equipment and they got a much better view of what was going on in that pipe. Uh there was some roots that were found. It's a 24 in diameter pipe and there was some roots estimated to maybe
be about excuse me 2 or 3 inches in diameter. Um they had been there forever I assume. So that's why I still believe there might be other contributing factors but it makes sense to excavate that area this 20ft section that they couldn't they couldn't get through with the equipment that they had and we'll
remove those roots patch the pipe back. Hopefully, it solves the problem. I don't know, 100% or possibly even 90% enough to get it functioning. If we find something else while we're excavating, it makes sense to maybe have the smaller portion of money just to move quickly,
you know, in the springtime. I can Yeah, most of the information. >> Thanks. >> You're welcome. Mr. Chairman Zach, >> as I mentioned previous meetings, I believe we we allocated $50,000 for engineering work on Barrow's Court at
the Springtown meeting. I would like to say before we vote on this that money to be reallocated instead of doing new money um to Jared's project. >> It's a I I can't speak to how much is in
the account. Our accountant is not um able to connect at the moment. >> I thought >> we can certainly bring this back. Yeah, I mean that even she uh Paula has notes that >> was article 9 from last fall's town meeting $50,000 specifically for
engineering study for Barrow's Court >> flooding situation. >> So I would like to see that that those funds reallocated if we can put that on the town meeting instead of appropriating new funds. >> Have you used any of that since you didn't even know it existed? >> Well, again I think I I feel I'm not
sure if you have the the articles in front of you. I believe the only highway article was 20 if I remember correctly for my portion and I thought conservation or maybe a different department might have went for the 50 cuz I haven't had any involvement with engineering. No, fair enough.
>> Yeah, I we don't know what happened to it after it was approved at town meeting, but there was $50,000 for Barrels Court. >> So I I would like to get the answer to that before we vote on this, Mr. Chairman. Okay, >> I think we have James. >> This is James. Yes. Uh the conservation
department um did hire an engineer and they did some work. Some of those funds have been used. I don't know off the top of my head how much is left in the account, but uh some of the funds have been used already.
>> Could you hear them? >> Yeah. Can we allocate what's Can we find that number? Reallocate what's left before we uh throw another 50,000 at it. James, can you can you get that for our next meeting? >> I'm going to try to connect to the
computer and see if I can if I can get the number. >> Okay. >> Table it till next week then. >> Yeah. Do do we want to table it till next week? >> Is is the is the project ongoing? Do do you know James conservation's not here at the meeting?
>> I am not aware if they finished the uh the engineering study yet or not. And you're not aware of Jared or what um conservation might have been doing on the Barrel Street project? The only thing I can imagine is there was uh they approached Western Samson to try to come
up with an assessment of what had happened and I don't I don't know if it was conclusive. Um I don't know how much it costs. You know, there's multiple departments working on this project at least to assess what was going on at the time. >> Weston and Samson doesn't answer the phone for $50,000.
Can we m I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. Can we also get an update from um the conservation agent as to what they've done already on this? Not just what how much they spent. Um we can get that from James, but in terms of what work has been done. >> It almost sounds like Jared the left
hand and the right hand on talking on this project. >> It does happen, I guess. So, >> Mr. Chairman. >> Yes. >> Motion to table to the next meeting. >> Second.
>> Got a motion and a second to table this until next Monday. Any further discussion? >> Brandon? >> Yes. >> Paul? >> Yes. >> Gavin? >> Yes. >> Tracy? >> Yes. >> Standy? >> Yes. >> Paula? >> Yes.
>> Zack? >> Yes. >> Kevin? >> Yes. Is Steve on? I'm a yes approaching. >> No other panelists. >> Okay.
Um so we can certainly come back with with the report on the status of the engineering as well as um if that's finished, we'll bring back new warrant language to transfer the appropriation.
>> Thank you. Mr. Chair, >> Paul, >> just checking to see if Jared needs to or will be available to come back next Monday. >> Okay. >> Nice guy. >> I know. >> So, now we're to the fun part
>> and now it's the the school building project. Superintendent O'Neal can take my >> seat of honor or seat of torture, however you want to refer to it. >> I don't mind standing here. >> Sure. >> It's whatever. >> Let me share screen.
>> Forwarding the slides. I don't want to kick you out of your seat. >> No, no, it's all good. >> Good evening everyone. Thank you so much for having me tonight. Oh, would you mind handing those out?
>> Thank you. >> Thank you. All righty. Um Christine is handing out um the a copy of the slides that I'm going to share with you tonight to the committee. Um that way you have them and you can take them home and um reach out
if there are any questions. So >> thank you. >> Thank you, Christine. Uh good evening. Um I'm Jennifer O'Neal. I'm the superintendent of Norton Public Schools. Um, tonight I am here to talk to you about the Norton Middle School roof. Um,
if you wouldn't mind just going to the next slide, please. So, many of us have um heard the woes of the Norton Middle School roof over the years, but I thought it would be important for us to walk through a little bit of a timeline. Um so that way uh those of you who are not f as
familiar with the project and the challenges that we've had um we lovingly have referred to it this morning as the money pit. Um but you know it's important for I think everyone to really understand the background that that goes along with um the middle school roof. So
August of 98 the um warranty began on the rubber portions of the roof. It was a 15-year warranty. Um, so it went into play just before the school opened. They opened for the very first day on September 9th of 1998.
And by the fall of 1998, we have documentation showing that since its occupancy, there have been reports of water leakage throughout the building, particularly during heavy periods of rain. By January of 1999, Westcot Construction, who was the general
contractor on this project, began steps to immediately stop the leaking, which involved cocking um specific areas of concern, specifically in the rotunda, which is the round portion at the uh front entrance, uh the auditorium in the
um school office where the administrative offices are. Um on January 2nd 22nd of 1999, uh Westco Construction ordered an investigation to be completed by Simpson Gumperts and
Heager. Um and what was found in the winter of 1999 is that um the through wall flashing and the waterproofing system were improperly installed and there was ineffective backup. So, we have not even
been open for six months at this point. And these are the findings of those initial reports. Um, by April of 99, they began the repair work on some of these initial issues. Um, there was a meeting at the middle school to discuss
the start of that corrective work. Um, and in attendance, we had representatives from Norton public schools. There was a clerk of the works that was hired by the town of Norton at that time. um similar to an OPM that we would hire today um but really employed
by us as a community um and then Westcot Construction. In July of 99, we have our first communication from Firestone Building Products that the warranty would not be fully executed on the roof until the
remaining payments had been made. So, as um I'm sure many of you are aware, when you have a big project like this, it we always hold on to a little bit of a retainer in order to ensure that the project gets completed um and that all of those items on the punch list um are
taken care of before the construction company walks away. Uh this is what happened in this particular situation as well. Um and what it it ultimately became one of those situations where everyone's kind of pointing at each other. Um, and so Firestone at that time
said, "That's fine, but we're not going to um uphold our end of the warranty until we get that remaining money." If you wouldn't mind just moving. Thank you. Um, in December of 99, so have just been open for just about a year at this
point, a little over a year, we had a follow-up to an initial investigation. Um and in this portion of the investigation, they talk took a look at the resp who held the responsibility for the improper or ineffective installation
during that initial construction. And as you can see, there was issues on the part of the masonry contractor. There was issues on the part of the roofing contractor, the drywall contractor, the window and glass contractor. everyone. It seemed to have you know, for lack of
better words, cut corners in some places during the construction of this building. And what they also found is that there was a big disconnect in communication from the architect to the general contractor and from the general contractor to the subcontractors. And
there was very little follow-through in terms of the subcontractor going back and asking for clarity if uh um if a drawing did not necessarily match up with the schematic planned.
Um and then we, you know, September of 2001, we have um another memo noting that there were still items that needed work. Um so we're about 3 years into the project at this time. Not all repairs had been done. Um certain things that still needed to be repaired as of
September of 01 included replacement of copper flashing, sealant in some of the control joints and then also modification of the steel plates around some of the brick work. February of 03, the roofing company sues the general contractor for outstanding payments that
go along with the Norton Middle School roof. Um, in April of 03, the court settled in favor of the roofer and we as a community paid out $60,000 um as a settlement to the roofing company.
Spring of ' 06, we actually were finally able to repair some of that flashing work that had still been um not done properly since 1998. Um, that was done by Atlas Roofing.
Um, I apologize. 2006 is like a weird time. I was thinking 2026. So, that actually should be fall of 2006 at the very bottom. Um, this is when we have a communication from Firestone that is they're responsible for all of the rubber
roofing that is on the flat portions of of the roof of the middle school and basically saying that they're only liable for work that was done um and the material that was installed either due to a fault of the material or because of the workmanship that was used to install
them. anything over and above that is not their responsibility and is not under the scope of that warranty. They also communicated at that time that any other contractors that were not approved by Firestone um they were not
responsible for any of their work or any damage that may have occurred to the roof itself with these contractors being up on on the rubber roof. Um, for anyone that is familiar with rubber roofing, it is extremely you you would think it is
pretty hardy, but the more you walk on it and the more people are up there moving things around, using equipment, using tools, um, it it really wears the roofing down. And that's part of the issue that we're seeing now is that over the years there have been so much work done up there that there are places
where it's very very thin and that's where we're having some issues with the leaks. Next slide, please. Um in ' 06 the current sup the superintendent at that time Dr. Ance uh hired a consultant um to give a
recommendation on what the next best best steps for us would be. That's 8 years into the opening of this building. The consultant um noted the status of the repairs, things that had been done, things things that weren't, and
recommended putting a foreign a warrant to the town uh for design services, so schematic design to take a look at actually repairing um these. We did a uh the town of Norton or Norton public schools did um a design bid for flashing
and roof repairs in winter of ' 07. And from May to August of 2007, we spent about $540,000 as a community to repair the flashing and roof um as part of um
I believe it was a town meeting article. Um and it was done in that way whether it was through capital or borrowing. I don't have that information. Um, Marshall Roof in '08 said that like, you know, please stop calling us. Like, the number's out of order. We're not
coming back out. Um, so they basically said like, "You need to contact the manufacturer." Um, and we were given permission instead to work with another roofing company. Um, and then in 2017, uh, we patched, uh, the metal portion of
the cafeteria roof, um, which was has been working for a short amount of time. And now um just around now those those leaks are starting to um ramp up again. I think the other thing that's important for everyone to note that while the um
Firestone warranty was in play, um Norton Public Schools filed multiple claims with them each and every year of that warranty um for repairs that were covered under warranty. Some years it might have been two or three, other years it was upward of 8 to 10 repairs.
Um so we definitely did um you know take advantage of that warranty while it was available. The other important thing for us to consider is that we know that this um timeline is not fully comprehensive. Um we know that there was work done uh
for example there were snow pins installed on the metal roof roughly between 0708. We cannot find any documentation um on our end to support um that work. Um, but we know what happens. We we know
that that was what voided the uh warranty on the metal portions of the roof. Um, and so the challenge when you're whenever you're looking back at a project that spans nearly 30 years is you have um I think I'm the fourth or
fifth superintendent. Uh Wade is definitely at least the second or third director of facilities um that has gone through this project and we have a lot of information on the work that we've done. Um but ironically we found a few boxes um labeled Norton Middle School roof in a closet and they were only
slightly water water damaged. Um so we did spend a lot of time going through that work and trying to um pace the story together for you. So hopefully that gives you all a little bit of context around what this um what the challenges have been and how really we
have been fighting against these roof issues since the very beginning. Next slide please. Thank you. >> I can just keep walking you guys since you have it in front of you. Is that okay? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And I'm happy to post this on our website um if we're having issues. So,
um this is the current status of N the Norton Middle School roof. The um first page I have for you here shows you all interior photos. Um as you can see the top left um this is in a classroom earlier this
morning. We have um a large um industrial size barrel and if you look closely you can see a little bit of a um hose hanging out of that ceiling. This is a um on the third floor. Um this is the picture directly to the right shows
another small barrel with a um open ceiling panel. Those are active leaks. We had a ton of rain at the end of last week as I'm sure um you all recall. Um and you can see there are students in that classroom learning today. Um and
it's you know kids are resilient teachers too. They're working around it. but it is definitely not an ideal learning space for our staff or for our students. Um over to the right on the top that is a um huge stain at the top
of our bus entrance door that is on uh the third floor. Um and you if you are walking into the the entryway where our students come in off the buses every single day, if you look straight up, this the the foyer goes all the way to the third floor. It's an open foyer. Um,
and you can see that gigantic stain right there. Um, bottom left, um, over above the window. This is in our, um, in our front office. You can see the staining and the leaks there. And then on the right, this is in one of our classrooms. And you, um, sorry, this is
the front entrance. You can see how the um the drywall itself is is really just peeling away. On the next slide, um we have a few more um photos from the interior of Norton Middle School. Uh far
left is our rotunda. Uh and you can see that this is this is one aspect of the metal roof. So you can see all the chip all the paint chipping away. Um there are large portions of rust in that area as well. Um and it's not uncommon for us
to have leaks in that area. Um bottom left that is the window sill at the bus entrance. Right below that gigantic stain. Um this is an area where these windows are actually if you look at the top right as well. Same area. Um you can
actually see see that drywall tape kind of peeling off where those connections were. huge huge um stains and and it's it's rotting away the the the interior of the building in these spaces as well. And then the final picture here on the
bottom right is from our cafeteria. And again, you can see it is the metal roof. And if you look closely, you can see the rust in the paint that's peeling away um in in this image as well. on the next slide. Um I was fortunate to
be able to borrow these um photos here from our um OPM and designer uh from the presentation they gave to us earlier this week. Um you can see top left is the um EPDM roof which is the the rubber
roof. Uh you can see number one you can see some actual water out there. You can see all of the um aging and deterioration um specifically around the rotunda. The rotunda since day one has had significant issues when it comes to
drainage in the flashing itself. Um you can see um on the top right that is actually open ceiling. It's a it's a hole. Um and then you can also see the sealant and um step wall flashing. Um that's really just peeling away. and
also the metal roof panels itself. Um, just stripping away. Um, on the next slide, I'm going to share with you the moisture survey that was done um by Tai and Bond who um have
been tasked with um completing the schematic design. So, this is our building. Um what they do is they send up a a drone and they do use thermal im thermal imaging to identify wherever there is entrapped moisture in the
roofing system. So anything that you see up there that is red um indicates that that they are roof areas with wet insulation. Um and and quite honestly it doesn't look that bad when you when you look at it, right? you you're thinking, "Oh my gosh, we've been talking about
the fact that, you know, this roof is in in big trouble for so many years." Um, if you take a look at where the uh far left of the um photo, that's where the remaining solar panels are. Take a look at the
remainder of that roof and how much of that is is in the red. um the around the rotunda almost all of that is is completely um saturated and then also over the library. Um and then especially these
are the areas where we're having these issues. Top right you can see that um larger square with a small square next to it. Those are directly above the classrooms where we're seeing where I showed you that picture of the students. They were working and they have the the barrels next to them. that is directly
above where those classrooms are. Um, so these are these are some challenges. Um, and so if you wouldn't mind going to the next slide please, I'm going to share the recommended solutions with you from our OPM and from the schematic design.
So what they are recommending for us at this time is um a restoration of the EPDM roofing. Um so that would basically in include an inspection of the existing
roofing systems um repair and closure of all the open conditions, removal and replacement of the roof roof system including insulation and or plywood depending on how wet it really is. Um and then they would retain or you
know keep the existing EPDM in dry areas. So, of course, Wade and Christine and I um had a ton of questions about this when they came out because um I'll say what we're all saying, what we're all thinking. The price tag here is
very, very high. And so, we're talking about not even a full roof replacement. We are talking about a restoration of the um rubber roofing itself. And so what it is is it's actually um more of a fluidbased system and they pour it out
over the roof itself. Um so there's a base coat, there's the polyester coat, and then there's the top coat and it goes right over the existing system. Um, so where it's more of a liquid, it is able to get into some of those hard-to-reach
spaces where in the past, um, was definitely one of the challenges that we had with the roof when it was done originally. Um, I have a picture that I'm going to share with you at the end. There are actually 29 different sections of roof at Norton Middle School. And
when you're driving up, it looks absolutely beautiful. But there are very there are a lot of different um heights of roof. There are a lot of different shapes of the roof. We have metal roof. We have the rubber roof. We have uh
circular shapes and um things just it's almost overdesigned in a way and and again it's beautiful, but it's wasn't practical when it was built. You think about LGN, it has three wings on one side and one wing on the other. It's it's about as basic as you can get
versus the middle school that it's it's very complicated. Um and then so while they're recommending that we restore the EPDM, they are recommending full replacement of the metal roof system. There is no way to remediate the metal roof itself. Um so basically they would have to take
all of the current metal roofing down. Um and they would um dispose of it. They would replace any deteriorated decking that is underneath the system itself right now. Um, and then they would install a whole new metal roofing system
which would include um the board itself, the air vapor barrier, the insulation, the underllayment, and then finally the metal roof panels and they would even put the snow retention system on it so we wouldn't have to send someone up there to do it ourselves 10 years later.
So, it's a bonus, right? No. Um if next slide please. So that's all right. I'll keep going. So ultimately um it's much more cost effective to go this restoration route. Um it actually provides more thickness
than um just the typical EPDM membrane. It has a 20-year warranty. So they guarantee that this will stay as is even with the restoration for a minimum of 20 years. Um, now I know that, you know, when you get your own roof, if you
replace your own roof at home, you go to you get certaintied or whatever other shingles you're will you you you purchase, it usually says 25 to 30 years on those on those roofing shingles. Most people aren't replacing their roof after 25 to 30 years. We usually we can get a
little bit more. So, that's why they say a minimum of 20 years. um definitely less time to be able to go through and to to do the restoration. Um and it, you know, is also helps with energy efficiency.
Thinking back to the slide I shared with you where they did the um the moisture survey with all the red. So that basically it says 9.4% of our roof is is considered um really wet. that
needs to be replaced. They won't consider restoration unless it's under 25%. So, we're definitely under the 25% with 9.4. Um, and then the on the next slide, I have a few samples of projects here for
you. So um they have done the fluid applied restoration um at um an elementary school in Chelsea and two elementary schools in Chel Chelsea an elementary school in Newbury and then um the do sherburn middle school in do um
there's also a few examples there of municipal buildings in Massachusetts um and then also um a few examples of um private buildings in Massachusetts. Now the restoration itself is um new to the MSBA process. Restoration is not new in
general. Companies um and private facilities um have been able to do this for a long time. However, MSBA is only now including it as an option with the pro um with the projects that they're funding. Um and then I also just shared with you
the advantages of the metal roof replacement itself. Um, it shows samples of exactly what this will look like in terms of the double lock seam metal roof panel and what the sto snow retention assembly will look like. Um, again, this
is a 25- year warranty at the very least. On the next slide, this is what we all want to talk about, right? The finances. That's why we're here in front of finance committee. Um, I'm sure you've heard a couple different
numbers be tossed around and I definitely um had a lot of questions about the different types of numbers that we have talked about. So, um, on the bottom of this page, it says roof replacement cost data and it looks like this.
metal roof replacement in the EPDM roof restoration. The estim estimated schematic design construction cost is 8.6 million. So it's important for us to remember that that's construction cost only. um that
is not um the OPM cost, that does not include the designer, that does not um any include any advertising that they need to do for the bid process, um any anything along any testing that needs to be done. Um that is
construction costs only. If we were to do this and do a full replacement, we would be up to 10.7 million with construction costs only. The other thing I I want to mention to all of you is on the top of this page um
one of the things that our um schematic design company Tai and Bond shared with us were a few projects that they've done and what those have looked like in terms of the bid costs themselves. It's important for us to remember that
during CO MSBA actually shut down their accelerated repair program. So when you're looking for comparables, it's very difficult for us to find one because there's nothing that has been done recently. We are in that first
class of new projects since postco. Um so the projects I have here for you today are from 2020 and 2021. Um, we have the Herbert Clark H C H C H C H C H C H C H C H C H C H Cooper Elementary School. The estimated um schematic design was 1.8. The bid cost came in at
1.2. Only 17,000 square ft where we're looking at 98,000 square ft. Um Locer Elementary School in Wayland 2020 um 44,000 square ft. So just under half
of what we're looking at. Their estimated schematic design construction cost only was 3 million and the bid cost was 1.9. And then um the wearham middle school, this is actually interesting because they did this in two different design
phases. They ended up having to split it up. The um 92,000 ft. So definitely closer to what we're looking at. 7.5 million was the estimated construction cost and the total bid was 3.9 million.
Big difference there. Finally, on the last page, um this is really what the what it looks like when we're talking about other costs as well. So, at the very bottom of the page, you're going to see the total project
budget. that is the total project cost um with all those other things built in the OPM the design the advertising any testing that needs to be done as well as contingencies um for those of us who are familiar with
building projects we know consist contingencies are a must um every project you never know what you're going to uncover and that's why it's really important for the contingencies to be built in there um so as you can Um there are definitely contingencies um
built in. The other item you'll notice too is that the estimated maximum total facilities grant at the very bottom of that top grid. That is the most that um
MSBA will reimburse us. We have a 55.63 reimbursement rate from the MSBA. And the number in red right below it, 4.20689, that is the most money that Norton will pay for this project. And that is if the
bids come in at this $86 million. However, we haven't gone out to bid yet. We don't have the final schematic design process done. Um, it's an estimated
total. um our OPM and our designer do believe that those bids will come in lower. Um but until we go through that process and we know it it's really hard for us to to predict. So it's always better for us to be higher and then that
way we have locked in MSBA at that maximum total facilities grant of $5.2 million. Um I did want to share with you this picture on the left. This is one of our staff members daughters. Um, she's
adorable. She's out back playing soccer on our soccer field and her mom posted it on Facebook one day and I was like, "Oh, she's so cute." And then my eye immediately went to the middle school. And this is a great way for you to kind
of look and see all the different levels of roof. So when you look behind um this little nugget here, you can see um the back of the tall side of the building where we have the three floors of the wings. You can see the curtain wall
where the library is and all those windows. You almost see like stacks of brick roofing behind that. And then you can see there are probably just in this view itself eight to 10 different levels of roofing
just that you can see in in this particular shot. Um so I thought that was really important to share with you as well. Um because I think that's one of the challenges about this project is the the cost because you they can't come out and
simply lay down one one you know full swoop of roofing, it they're going to have to be out there and and do those 20 plus sections each on their own. Um, so of course the labor and the materials make it make it much more challenging.
Um, but I'm here to answer any questions that you have this evening. Um, so please >> thank you for the presentation. >> Thank you for having me. It's kind of depressing seeing all this,
but restoration, how long has that been a thing? And do we have any um
idea of its success rate? 80% 90% cuz the worst thing the worst case scenario is we do it and then in two years we're oh boy you know something didn't it it didn't work
>> well Bill I have to be honest like I'm right there with you like I I think that you know me taking you all through that timeline was not just to show you that it's been a problem from the beginning but we are always so quick to throw a quick
fix at something that I I want to make sure that whatever we're doing is going to have some staying power here. Um so my understanding and again educator not a roof expert but uh my understanding from conversations with our OPM and with
the design firm is that um the roof restoration component has been happening um in municipalities and private sector and in in building in general for almost 30 years. And the newness for us is that
MSBA has only now started allowing it as part of their um rest as part of their approval process for um projects. Um and so what I would imagine is that MSBA has
looked at the research and they've said, "Okay, this is a fair bet." Um, I put a phone call in earlier today to my colleague in Cohasset, um, who did the restoration with the poor about 4 years
ago. Um, and so I'm unfortunately still waiting for her to call me back. Um, but they are actually going to be doing the restoration on a second building now. Um, and they're in the MSBA tunnel for that at the at this moment. So,
it's my hope that when I talk to her tomorrow, she's going to say, "Yes, it worked. It was a good opportunity, and that's why we're doing the second building with the same approach." Um, I think the concern that I have and I've been very candid with my team and with
the school committee is I want to make sure we're doing things the right way and I want to make sure that when this when the company comes out to do it, whoever that may be, the restoration component is done with
an extreme amount of detail so that we're making sure that we're hitting all of those red spots that you saw. um and cutting out all of the components that need to be done. I asked this question earlier this week or last week I guess because today's
Monday. Um what type of supervision do we have for this project? Cuz I'm not going to be up on the roof and knowing what's happening. Wade knows, but you know, he's also doing everything else we need him to do. So, um, the OPM has a full-time site representative that is at
the building all day, every day, whenever there's a contractor there, they are there supervising all of the work. Um, and then the architect comes out at least weekly to review any work that has been done and make sure that it matches up with the drawings. Um and
then additionally the manufacturing company because of course they they want their product to um not be installed improperly and that make sure that it's working cuz they'll be on the hook for a warranty for us as well. Um they come
out at least bi-weekly um and more as as needed. And that was my question as well. Um, but I think it's important for whoever that site supervisor is to have a real understanding of roof roofing itself and to make sure that they're
able to um to put it together for us in the right way. I think regardless if it's restoration or replacement, my biggest worry is when you start peeling things up, like you know, you get that really stinky onion and you just kind of keep pulling away
at the layers. I'm worried what we're going to find under there after 28 years. >> Which almost well kind of leads me to my next question of why repair? I shouldn't be so cavalier here. It
appears to be 2 million between repair and total replacements. So besides the 2 million, is is there a good reason? It's 2 million. >> It's just 2 million. But is there a good
reason why we wouldn't just say replace it for >> you know 100% full warranty and you don't get the oh well we didn't catch that so that's not covered >> right? So the warranty will be about the
same whether it's replacement or restoration. Um the the amount of time that you're going to have on the new rubber roofing will will be 20 at least 20 years. Um the metal roofing will be replaced regardless. So that is one
thing that we are not messing around with. It will be replaced regardless. Um what happens when you are going to kind of take the whole aspect of of replacement? Um number one it's obviously a lot more time. It's a lot
more labor. Um the issues that we're going to see is that the brick that's alongside of the roof is at a certain level and it's and and again I'm not going to know the numbers off the top of my head. So maybe Wade
does. Um it's it may be 4 in high right now. When you take that whole roof out and you're going to replace it, you now need to increase the ledges all the way around um to meet today's code instead
of what was appropriated in 1998. Um all of those things are going to have to be redone. That's where the cost in the the two $2.1 million difference. That's where the cost comes in. And so it's not necessarily the roof product itself.
It's everything that needs to go along with the full replacement of the roof. If you go back to the slide that I shared with you that shows you the moisture survey, um, and it it so it shows that 9.4%
or 7,100 square ft of the EPDM is saturated down to the the insulation point. So, anything there, all of those areas are going to have to be cut out. The the plywood will have to be replaced, the
insulation will be have to be replaced, and anything the water barrier, anything else that's coming up to the roof itself, all of those areas will be hit. And you just don't have to do that on any of those other areas. Um, when they talk about they won't consider
restoration if it's more than 25%. and we're just under 10. So, we've got a good little window and that so that's why they are the the experts are recommending the restoration over the replacement. And I guess
my last question at the moment, um, if this were to be approved, you know, tomorrow, when how much disruption to the people in the building or is this
like a summer project? Let's try to >> So, ideally, if this was to be approved at fall town meeting, um what would happen is we would go out to bid and we would go through that process and we would start construction at the as soon
as school gets out in June. Um with the hope that we would be buttoning things up by the end of August. Um and that if we are still in some construction, the majority of the work would have been done uh in terms of the you know cutting
and laying and pouring and you would just be doing finish up things. Um it's a big big roof. Um however, it is looking like they could do it in that amount of time. If it's not approved
this fall, we would be looking at summer of 27. So, a a year of bigger leaks. >> Correct. >> Paul, [Music] >> Dr. O'Neal, some random thoughts, a few
questions. >> Absolutely. >> Back in uh 98, we did have oversight as well, and that didn't really help us out very much when it was all said and done. >> Uh just just a random thought. Um, one of the big mistakes back in 1998 arguably was to not do a debt exclusion
for a building of that size and everything. So, I'm not sure what the plans are for the um almost 5 million. Um, you're putting new product over EPDM that has a 25 year shelf life. So, even though it may not be actively leaking,
it has been exposed to the the New England harsh weather and sun and everything for 25 years. I just wonder putting product over something that's that old is prudent. And again, I'm not a roof reader. That's why it's a random thought. Um, in the future, like the
library has 11 gables. That's a a roofing nightmare. This building by its design was a roofing nightmare from day one. If we ever do get a new school, let's put a box up and have the inside really nice for the kids, but let's just put a box up and not let the architects
talk us into an absolute nightmare. >> I couldn't agree more. >> Windows. We were up there spraying with fire hoses and stuff with the um we used to think of Lincoln rotunda there that he was going to be played out in state there. That's what we thought it was built for. Um the windows would leak.
One of the pictures you showed us shows leaking looks like below a window. So, we do all this roof work and find out that the windows are an issue. So, we're going to be looking at another multi-million dollar window project down the road like some of the other schools have had. I'm under the impression that
brick work is supposed to be sealed periodically period. Not just the bottom 4 in, but brick work in general with the grout. So, you're going to have water penetrations there. So, we do all of this. you still got the potential of leaks elsewhere, mold and molder, which
is a death. So, so a lot of lot of random comments there and um you can comment on some of you if you'd like, but the bottom line is I personally think we need a debt exclusion for this and I don't think that's in the the game plan and I'm not >> I think um well
there was a lot there. >> Yes. So um what I would say is yes um unfortunately we are now living with issues that none of us had control over at that
time. Um so there definitely is components of repointing with the brick work. Um there are things that get done through our regular facilities budget on an annual bas basis based on where the
need is. um at the middle school until you get some of the until you get the roof fixed itself, you're you're just putting a band-aid on a bullet hole. And and so what we really need to do is fix the primary issue. There
absolutely will be other issues and and if you were to go through those boxes of documents that we have um on the middle school construction itself, the subsequent lawsuit, the subsequent you know remediation that tried to take place. There were so many issues with
that build itself. Um I think the the roof is definitely the biggest one and it has been since day one and we'll have to kind of take the rest as it comes. Unless um on Elm Street they want to build a new middle school on the Reed
and Barton site. Maybe we could do like a multi-use deal. >> We did a box. It might be cheaper. >> Yeah, there you go. Stilts. >> Mr. Chairman, >> Zach, where do I start? Um you need a roof.
Nobody's I don't think anybody's going to argue that. Uh, I would probably be in more favor of a complete replacement than a restoration. Sounds to me, I'm no expert in roofing, but it sounds to me like just another big band-aid um that we've seen for the last 28 years. Um,
but let's talk about the elephant in the room, how we're going to finance this thing. And and let me frame this for you a little bit. You know, we've obviously you've sat here with the budgets of the last couple of years.
You have teachers working without a contract. I'm sure they're not looking for a pay cut. Uh the town manager is going to negotiate with every union in town this year. I'm sure they're not looking for a pay cut. And we're not talking about taking approximately
$400,000 a year out of the operating budget. So to piggyback on what the chief said over there is you have two ways of funding this. One is by layoffs and one is by debt exclusion. And those are the
only options. The town doesn't have $400,000 a year. As you well know, you have we gave you stabilization money just so you could tread water and nothing more. So, you know, I to be honest with you, I did watch the school committee meetings the last couple and I was disappointed
and I'm being kind at the school committee for, you know, yeah, just approve it. Great. We need a roof without the implications of what is going to happen to do that. That is going to be on the backs of layoffs. Just so everybody, we should make that crystal clear to the public. The town
does not have this type of money. So for me, I would have to agree with with with Paul and say, you know what, you get a fall town meeting coming up, approve it, pending debt exclusion. You have a spring election. It's going to cost nothing to put it on there. If it
fails, it fails. We go then we we have a different discussion. But to do that, we did this with the window project and that was a disaster. It's bleeding out our budget. We did it with the train project and we all know we got run over by the train. Uh, and now we want to do it again, which is a terrible precedence
to keep borrowing money out of the operating budget when we can barely pay our bills as it stands. And you know, I'm very disappointed with the school committee after watching those meetings and nobody I mean totally tonedeaf and I'm being polite.
>> I don't want to speak for the school committee because they are they all have they all have their own their own forum to do that. Um, I I think that um the window project, windows and doors and the and the train project are, you
know, Christine and I are are living with the train project um whether we wanted to or not. And so, uh, and it's it's it's a big it's a big factor for us. And so, what I would say is, you know, you here tonight are are the
finance committee. And so, I'm sharing with you the need that we have. as you said, we need a new roof. You know, have question having our students um learning in a space where you have a giant bucket that's actively dripping water is is not conducive to learning. It's not what any
of us want for for our students. And what I would say um in terms of of the options, I I think you're absolutely right, Zach, and and you know, Mr. Schiker, to you as well. Um and so if the if the finance committee believes that a debt exclusion is the way to go, then we will work with you in order to
do that. Um, I would imagine, and maybe this is a good convers question for Christine, if we have to wait until the spring for the vote, I would imagine that this won't happen until 27. And only because we need the time to go out, we need to you need to go through the
bid process. You have to get the you have to award the bid, which probably if we were voting in April wouldn't happen until thoughts. >> Um, a couple things. >> Okay. Thanks. Um the first is we have to prove to MCA
that we have funding. >> You you you may want to phone. [Music] >> Come on friend. >> Um so we have to prove to MSBA that we have funding available um 90 days of submission of the project. So that was
August 28th I believe. Um, so we couldn't do a pending, they wouldn't approve a pending a debt exclusion in the spring. Um, if we did decide to do the debt exclusion or we all decide to do the debt exclusion in the spring, we would have to then ask
MSBA for an extension of the 90 days and then we would have to get approved. Um, not something that they favor. So we are we are not even guaranteed that they would do that. If not, we have to start the whole process all over in FY27. um because that would be the next
opening for an accelerated project. But if they did approve the extension and we did get it on um the ballot for the spring, then yes, it would be the following 27 summer. >> Mr. Chair, >> just to clarify, so there's a
possibility that the 55.63 reimbursement from MSBA would go away. >> Okay. or potentially the the percentage could change if we had to go back out and start the process again. >> Mr. Chair off. One of my concerns that
the building has had 27 years worth of leaks and water getting where it shouldn't go. And really, I almost mirrored Zach and Bill regarding the total replacement only to get in and see what's actually going on because I have a feeling there's a lot
of mold and mildew where there shouldn't be mold and mildew which is very unhealthy for a lot of kids as they're getting more sensitive with that. So, I'm not sure if just spreading a sealant over the top of the old EDPM is going to take care of potentially issues where you might have to open it back up down
the road and stuff. So, >> and I would even say um chief that >> I don't even know that a full replacement would show you all the issues that we have cuz they're now down in between the walls and every >> right. But it would at least show you what's up at least. You know,
>> Mr. chair. >> I I'm going to play devil's advocate and say company wants to make more money, right? They're giving the same warranty. They're saying they're recommending a full restoration. So, you got to take that with a grain of salt as well.
>> Yeah, Mr. Chair, um just a question. We're, you know, we're talking about a debt exclusion in the spring and I appreciate that that would obviously save us money because it would be part of the regular election. What about the possibility of a um debt exclusion election prior to the spring?
>> I was gonna whisper that into Mark's ear. >> I mean, there's a timeline. I for you know, I know it's not it couldn't happen next month, but would that help with the timeline for MS um MSBA? Like what's their what's the deadline, I guess, for for that to happen?
>> Um, so I think maybe Christine and I need to clarify because I thought it was once they brought it to the board in OC. October the end of the October meeting. Okay. So, not August. All right. Cool. All right. So, 90 days from I think October 28th is is that 20th?
>> No, you were right. >> 28th. >> Okay, cool. Um, so end of January, [Music] >> the downfall of that is there's a lot of education in a shorter period.
>> But >> and it would need a positive vote at the town meeting before it because it needs both. Correct. For the debt exclusion, >> correct? >> So it' have to get a favorable vote in October and then fast forward it to a
Mr. Chair. >> Yes. >> Um, I'm not saying I disagree, but if history means anything, I there's no way a debt exclusion is getting approved. So, I I I get what everyone's saying,
but let's be realistic. >> So, the debt exclusions have been historically approved. It's overrides in general for the general fund that are absolutely go down in flames. >> Correct. Mr. Chair, >> we we we we tend to be a little more
>> favorable with a direct need versus a hey, we need money overall. >> One goes away and one's there forever on the tax base. >> Noted, >> Mr. Chairman.
>> Zach, >> and just to piggyback on what Brandon I just said, and if it fails, it fails. and and this way next spring when we're sitting here and we're saying we're eliminating this program or we're cutting this position or we're doing
this, you got to have a roof. I mean, the roof is leaking, you got to replace it. Then nobody should be surprised and it should be a shock to nobody. And these are the options. If the town picks that option, then they live with the consequences
just like every other time. Yeah. I kind of like the Elm Street idea though. >> Yes. >> Yep. All right. So, didn't really come here tonight to speak about the roof, but I
figured I'd take some notes and I looked through the bid pack. It was like the, you know, roof consultants package here. So, a couple things. I'm not sure if all of you know, but you know, I've owned a roofing company for the last 25 years. Um, back in 2017, I was called in 2018,
whatever it was, I was called in to look at this middle school roof. I did a full evaluation on this roof. Found a lot of screw pops, lot of masonry issues, a lot of window issues. Um, at the time, the former um superintendent, I met up, I forget with the um janitor, whoever I
was meeting over there, um, we walked the entire roof. At the time, I gave him a ballpark estimate of 1.6 million for a full replacement. A couple maybe six months later, we had an override. The town then requested 3.2 million. This
turned into a huge crap show on Facebook because I made it a point that I had already given you guys a rough ballpark estimate of 1.6 million. The town was then doubling uh the ask on this roof. So, I'm very familiar with this roof. Um, one thing I'd like to say is this is
the first time I'm hearing about uh a top coat. You guys recommend a top coat. All you're doing is trapping water. U just like Paul said, you're trapping water. The the roof is soaking wet. The insulation's wet. There's no way that dries out. It does not dry out with the warm days. Once it's wet, it's wet. You
go and throw an aluma coat or you throw a top coat on, all you're doing is trapping water. You're just going to create mold and a future problem. Um, they give you a 25 year warranty. That's crap. You know, I'm on these roofs all the time. They have a top coat, uh, with the with the cold, you know, the winters
we get and the heat and the expansion and contraction, those things dry out, they crack out. We end up ripping them up after, you know, a few years. It's it's a complete scam. These guys spraying down a top coat, and they walk away. It's It's a complete scam. I don't think the town should consider that at
all. Um, couple mistakes here. I think it was Atlas Roofing. Was Is it Was it Atlas Roofing that did this roof originally? >> Yeah. Uh who was the original installer? >> Marshall. So now Firestone is a great great product, probably the top membrane. Um so as far as like getting a
Firestone warranty, you get a 20 or 25 year Firestone warranty. You know, that's top of the line. So I don't put any I wouldn't put any of this on Firestone. If you're looking at quotes, Firestone, Manville, Carlilele, three top manufacturers, they're the best manufacturers you can get, you know, a
warranty from. Um the a couple of the things that um Miss O'Neal said that concern me. You know, I understand she's got a job to do. She's trying to get the money for this roof, but you know, some of the things certainty having a 25-y year warranty doesn't exist. They don't
make a 25 year shingle. So, um walking I heard I heard >> I think that was >> I understand that, but if you're going to speak to the roofing, you should at least know what you're talking about. Uh, walking on a membrane roof damages the roof. Another falsehood does not damage the roof. You should get at least
30 years out of the roof. You could put a TPO. >> We We haven't gotten 30 years out of this cuz it was a crappy install. It was a It was terrible workmanship. It wasn't the actual rubber that failed. It was the install that failed. Uh, the biggest issue you guys had up there was screw pops. Um, you know, the screws were popping through. There's there's
hundreds of them. I saw it for myself. A lot of the flashing wasn't done right. the, you know, wall flashings weren't terminated properly. Um, so it wasn't the manufacturer. That rubber should last you 30 years at least. You could go with a TPO roof and get 50 years out of it. You know, won't need to replace it,
you know, till we're all gone. Uh, SonaL, again, 50-year warranty, you know, for a little bit more money. Um, so let's see. The metal roofs, my recommendation a few years ago was to just rip them off and shingle them. You
got sloped roofs there. Why not shingle it? Just like the high school. High school's got shingle. It's a sloped roof. Um, looking at this estimated budget here, >> right? You got a couple of things that are concerning here. >> You got standard standard seam metal
roof 1.235 million. That's 200 squares of shingle roof up there. 200 squares of sloped roof on that with the rotunda. 1.235 million to go back with a metal roof. Uh you could shingle that for, you know, maybe a quarter of that, maybe
less. Um some of the other projected estimates here. Supervisor for 13 grand. You fire that guy. Don't eat him. You got another thing. Oh, another another thing I thought was interesting.
Um the manufacturer comes out bi-weekly. Not true. I've been roofing 25 years. I've done hundreds of these projects. We've done schools. We've done, you know, shopping plazas. We've done grocery stores. We see that guy once. Whether it's John Manville, whether it's Carile, whether it's Firestone, that
inspector comes out one time when the job's done. The only time he comes out a second time is if you have fails. So, he comes out, he circles the areas that are defect. You know, we screwed up. Say we screw up a corner flash and he'll circle it, put it in his report, fix that, or you don't get your 20-year warranty. Then, he comes back out to reinspect.
You never never see the manufacturers's um inspector come out bi-weekly. Those guys are It takes 3 months for us to get them to show up the first time. You know, there there's like three of them in the whole state. So, that's another falsehood. The
Let's see. There was a couple other interesting things here I saw on the estimate. $230,000 for as best as best containment. So, what's this building? 25 years old. So, where's the asbestous? I just did a a
job in Stoton on a fire job and we did an asbestous containment on the entire condo that burned down and it cost us like $26,000 for the asbestous company and then the demo company. So, the two there's $230,000 allowed for asbestous.
I'm just curious. I've done a test cut on that roof. It's just poly iso. There's no asbestous on that. There's no gravel roof. There's no um you know torch down. And there's nothing there's no asbestous on that roof. So what's that expensable? So m may I ask because I I don't know if this committee wants
us to go on and on but if if we're looking to do certain things on the roof and I know you're you're you're part of you know town things here but if you're
allowed to bid on it then I would suggest making a bid. >> I don't even care if I bid on to be honest with you. So, I'm just trying to help you guys out and show you guys some of these expenses. We got $379,500 for pressure washing the roof. Pressure
washing it. $379,000 is the estimated um asbestous testing. $230,000. Disposal, $61,000. I >> We got the best dumpster guy in town as our select board. And I bet you we got maybe 15 $20,000 worth of dumpsters on
that roof. There's no weight. I I I can't go line to line. >> I can I understand what the experts when you guys come up with an estimate of 10.7 million to replace 800 squares of rubber, I scratch my head because, you know, the job's worth a third of that.
The the membrane on that roof is, you know, and the >> then then if if if the school can find a a bid that makes sense at what you're saying, I'm going to say >> no, I understand. Let's go for it. >> I understand that. But a request for $10.7 million is insane. And when you
guys are, you know, and when we're looking for $120,000 to help the veterans and the seniors, >> we got a $10.7 million We got a $10.7 million request for a roof. >> That's a total different thing. >> It's a totally different thing. I understand. >> It's a totally different thing. So don't
try to >> I'm not. But if you're going to ask a roofing question, you should ask a roofing expert. You shouldn't be asking the superintendent. You should have brought the consultant in here who wrote this report. or you should be asking the local roofing experts, and I'm one of them. So, I'd be open to any questions
you guys have got about this roof. >> How much would you do it for? >> 10 years ago, 1.6 million. [Music] >> I guess it would depend on the scope. I mean, I'm being told that, you know, I just got this, you know, ballpark today. I'm being told that, uh, they want to
potentially build a brick parapit going around the school. I mean, I haven't confirmed that, but um you know, that's what >> a brick parapit to build up the parapits. Um I haven't I was just looking through the plan cuz I just had time to peek through this, but you know, if that is the case, that's another
waste. I mean, we could go with a Glock roof uh rail system for for pennies on the dollar. So, it's I mean, I'm I'm I'm open to answering any questions. I'd love to see that school get a roof. My daughter will be there in a couple years, but you know, but again, it's $10.7 million is a is a pretty strong
ask for 800 squares of rubber. So, >> okay. >> Thank you. >> U Mr. Ray, if I could just answer a couple of your questions. So, in regards to the asbestous um removal, obviously it was built in 1998. that's not going
to be a component of it. But because it is an MSBA project, you have to include certain factors in it. So the asbestous removal, it has to be a line item. They have to say if you ran into it, what would that entail? Um same thing, you have to have one aspect of the roof
itself that is solar ready. We will never put solar panels on that roof ever, but we have to put in the quote what it would cost to make one area of that roof solar ready. So just because
of that, the bid when it is done will be lower than what the initial asks are. Um, and so I think that's important. I think those are great questions cuz I'm sure if you're asking them, other people are asking them as well. Um, so I just wanted to make sure that that was was
clear. >> And I'm definitely not a roof expert either. So, um, you know, I'm doing the best that I can to share this information. But my dad does own a hardware store and he, uh, has roofers there and I got I haven't worked there
since my daughter was I was pregnant with my daughter. So, it's been a long time since I sold roofing shingles. But, so I apologize for misrepresenting. >> Zach, one other question under the article here. Um
uh article 11 it's under the direction of the permanent building committee. Have we engaged the building committee? >> Um we have invited the building committee. They came out to our meeting um representative from the building committee came out last Wednesday um
when we did have um our OPM and the um design comp design firm presenting to us. Um, so Brian was there. Um, and we have a representative on the committee as well, which um, >> so are you I mean under this article, you're basically going to hand this
project over to the building committee is just under the that's what this article says under the direction of the permanent building committee. Is that is that what's going to happen? >> I think we'll have to have some more conversations with them about what that would actually look like. >> Okay. So we can't vote on this as
written. I think that's the language that needs to be included for MSBA. So that would be what would have to happen. We have not we have not just I'm not I agree the group has to be for one member to go out to a meeting.
>> Bob, you should come up and use the mic just because there's people potentially at home listening. Excuse me, Mr. Chair. Mhm. >> Bob Kemp, 51 Pine Street. So, we haven't had a chance to look at, not that I'm opposed to it, just so you understand that. First and foremost, this roof has
been a pain in our butt. I was involved in 1995 and 1998. So, I in 2006 and all the other times we had to deal with this thing. So, the permanent building committee should be probably one of the first things we
should have gone to. and I've been on it now for almost a year and we haven't had any conversation about it. Um if and when the project does become a reality then yes we have to take advantage of that. We have to work with them. So but I think um we haven't had
that opportunity yet just to be clear on that. A chair going to a meeting and getting some information which he has not discussed with us you know doesn't justify the fact that we've been informed which we haven't been. Um, before I forget it, I wrote down a
couple things, too. The um the retunda, please, whatever you do with the retund, if you can't take it off, please make sure that that is engineered properly because that has been the biggest problem we've had. And
the other thing I would s suggest is um the um some of the some of the comments that you guys have made, I had the same questions. the warranty. Forget about that. I I have no trust in that ever happening again. But, uh, when we do this, we should also do the inside of
the building. That should be part of the process. So, when we're looking at repairing the roof, we can go back and repair the damage that's inside to make that part of it. As far as spending just over $400,000 a year for 20 years to
take it out of the general fund, that's impossible. As Zach said, we can't do that. If we're going to do this, it has to be it has to be a debt exclusion override. Has to be done the right way. And I for one don't think it would be frowned upon. I think it would probably
be the logical way to approach it at this point. So, um, the roof has to get fixed. We've been patching this thing for since day one. I can remember back in 2001 having a complete meltdown over it because the retunda was breaking. is
coming down into the building, coming down different sections of the building. So, it's been a long, long process. We have spent, I think, close to $750,000 in repairs over the years, um, just to put band-aids on it, and it hasn't worked. It just hasn't worked. So, I
would I would definitely u encourage you to to look at the possibility of going through the debt exclusion process because we can't take 400 I think I asked today about $48,000 out of the the general funds, police, fire, and schools will all have
a meltdown on that one. So getting someone responsible to do it, making sure it's being done properly, making sure that these companies that say they're going to send people in writing, make them put it in writing that they're going to send people to look at it and
make sure we get this thing done the proper way. But I'm concerned about the mold myself with the amount of years this this building has been u been waking and it's just a it is it is a beautiful building but when we built it it was we they called
it the Taj Mahal and they had a reason to call it that because it was just so many different levels of it and it's going to take a lot of repair and and and maintenance and bricks. I'm I'm sure they're going to be running into brick issues as they're as of repairing the roof. So, um, we need to find out the
timeline for the for the grant money >> and then we can kind of backtrack from that and determine if we have to have a special town meeting earlier this winter, then wait till spring >> because we don't want to lose that money. I mean, that's if that money is out there and available, we want to take
advantage of it. But just a couple of thoughts, but the building committee, permanent building committee has not discussed it yet. >> Thank you, >> Mr. Chair. Can I ask um is the it doesn't look like the select board's voted on this yet. Um have they discussed it at all yet? Have they
discussed a debt exclusion? I mean I feel like that needs to happen before we can vote on it like to know where that money is going to come from and and I mean the select board's the one who decides whether a debt exclusion goes forward. So um to me it makes sense for them to
discuss and weigh in on this before we do. Yeah, I'm getting my first my first sight of the time myself and my own fault, but I'm getting my first indication what it's all about and it was very informative and I thank you for that. Um, but yeah, we have to convince the select board to to do that exclusion
and I can't speak for them obviously. So, >> you have to convince the select board. >> Not too Mr. Chair, >> we are running out of time. So unless they put that on their agenda for the next meeting, we could table it for our next meeting as well. I think that um
speaking for myself, I'm in favor of getting the roof fixed, but I think it needs to be done through a debt exclusion. And again, I'd like to see if we're doing a debt exclusion personally, possibly go with the full replacement and start from a clean slate at least from the top part of the you know,
>> Mr. Chairman. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And one more thing I just back piggybacking on what uh Mr. Kimble said, "We should get an estimate for what the damages are inside. If you need $100,000 to repair the inside, you know, if you're going to do it, do it. If you're
going to put on a debt exclusion, uh, I would include whatever the repairs are needed in the interior of the building and just get it all done in one swoop or at least put a contingency in of a number to have that repaired.
and also have the permanent building committee involved in the whole process because they should have been. >> Mr. Chair, Dr. O'Neal, has there been like an air quality test done at all in the building to know if there is a mold issue because that would be a whole other expense as well that we'd have to
put in there as >> we just did one last week and so we'll hopefully get the results soon. >> Okay. Um, and I'm more than happy to come to your next meeting if you'd like. If if you want to put me on the agenda, but I'll defer. You let me know.
>> I I believe all remaining Warren items will be on the agenda. It's the last meeting before the town meeting >> next Thursday. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We need to table it since it was on our
agenda for tonight. Uh, Mr. Chair, >> I guess >> like give us another time. I make go >> Mr. Chair. >> So I'm sorry. The next select board meeting is when? >> A week from Thursday. >> So we would not meet that following
Monday. That's Columbus Day. And then I believe the warrant would be have to be posted after that. We wouldn't be able to meet again after next Thursday's select board meeting. I don't think >> October 7th to 9th. One of those days is
the drop dead date for the warrant to be published. >> So, we have to vote on all all articles by next Monday, but select board doesn't meet before Monday. >> They do not
>> because it needs to be published 15 days before October 20th. >> Could they have a special meeting to handle that? this Thursday >> potentially because if it is a time constraint now to >> Mr. Mr. Chairman can I make a suggestion
here? >> Yes. >> This is you know a major project for the town. I I would suggest instead of having meeting after meeting after meeting a joint meeting with the school committees, this committee and the select board and just hash it all out in
one night and be done with it instead of going back and forth. just a suggestion. >> I I don't want to say how successful that was for tomorrow night, but um if if someone comes up with a a date
that works for everybody, you know, have at it. I mean, I don't want to speak for the select board. They they're planning on meeting next Thursday. I I mean, this is the biggest thing on select board agenda is getting the town
meeting warrants taken care of. >> I I think >> but but that's actually too late for us to do ours if we're contingent upon them having their input. >> If there was a joint meeting that day, >> it might the ninth work. Is that the last date? >> You said the seventh would be the last.
>> Seventh would be the last date of Tuesday. 7th. >> I would have to do the math. >> So you guys can all come to our next meeting on Monday. That's what I want to ask. If you're meeting you're meeting on October 6th, would that be the next? >> Yep.
>> Your next meeting. >> Yeah. >> Perhaps uh Mr. G, we should suggest to the select board that we have a joint meeting with the finance committee on October 6th and do that. we come to this meeting because I think this is important enough that we have to react to it sooner than later and I think it's
important that uh we can't wait until the 9th even though it's 3 days later it gives you guys an opportunity to readress some of these issues also and the sooner we do it the better uh I would suggest I'll suggest to the chair
so board chair that we meet on the 6th >> um to this committee can people meet earlier than 7 cuz this sounds like it's >> Yes. >> going to be uh >> 6
>> 6:30 would be the earliest for me. >> 6:30. >> Okay. Then next Monday we can do 6:30. Does that hopefully work for the select board? >> Is that something we get a vote on? >> What about the school committee? Are
they going to be do they want to join us? Do we need the school committee per se or just school reps again like tonight? >> I'm more than happy to >> I don't know what the committee is going to do. >> I would just hope everybody's on the same page.
>> Yeah. >> Particularly if you're asking the taxpayers for more money. >> So to clarify, is this only on this war item or would we be having the joint meeting for more items?
I would say continue with our meeting after it, >> right? >> Bring this up first, then the joint meeting gets adjourned and then we continue with our agenda on the finance committee. >> We might if if they're amenable to that date, we might just post it as any other warrant items that might be beneficial
to talk about together. >> As long as we can get from our agenda. Is is is there a rule in in these this committee that there's a certain time where it's required to adjourn? I know some >> 9:00. No,
>> Mr. Gold, we we've >> we've been here till uh you know the cows come home. >> When I was chair, we were here until 11 once. >> Mr. Chair, I would recommend because we do look for their input as well for some of the articles that we go ahead and make it a joint meeting and and run
through the warrant and be done with it. Yep. So Michelle can post that for next Monday starting at 6:30. >> Um, subject to the select board chair. I'm texting him now. >> Yeah.
>> Awesome. >> Thank you. >> Did we ever have Steve trying to get in tonight and didn't get in or did he? >> I don't think so. For the longest time, no. >> Just one panelist. That's me. So, I'm not sure if there's a problem with the posting because that was one of
Steve's concerns as well for last week. Is he even in the right posting for the meetings? >> But eight attendees, >> he would need a panelist password, wouldn't he? >> I don't I don't know. That's why he says he was frustrated last week and I just trying to make sure that if one of us
can't be here next Monday night where it's a busy and an important night that we're able to sign on and participate. Do we need to vote or anything on the meeting time or is that more clear? >> No, it'll it'll just be posted as 6:30.
>> Okay. >> Um, >> sorry. >> Do do we need to to vote this or table until next Monday? >> Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a motion to table article 11.
Till next Monday. >> Till next Monday. >> Second. >> Any further discussion? Hearing none. Brandon, >> yes. >> Paul, >> yes. >> Gavin, >> yes. >> Tracy, >> yes. >> Andy, Paula, >> yes.
>> Zack, >> yes. >> Kevin, >> yes. >> It Brandon, that's all you. So, >> so with with the chair's permission, >> old business bill, >> uh, yeah,
>> two items, >> two items left with the with the vice chair, now the chair, acting chair's permission. >> Two items, two remaining items. >> Pick up that gamble. >> Yeah, that's it. smack that >> acceptance of chapter 59 section 5C a
half and reduce the age of eligibility from 70 to 65. Uh we had discussed these in detail last time. Um we have uh there was a little question about which fiscal year I think it was decided
that that it would be July 1st of the coming fiscal year. That would be the year to budget for it. Um if if there's any other questions, unfortunately we don't have identified where the approximate $100,000 would come from out
of next year's budget yet. I plan on spending I want to venture to say at least 100 hours with the accountant between now and then to to firm down the fiscal 27 budget. Um, if there are any specific questions or if we're comfortable moving
this one forward, I leave it to the I'll take your lead. >> So, um, Mr. Chair. >> Yes. >> Um, Mr. Ghoul, did the selectman actually I see they've marked here. They
did vote on it to go ahead and move it forward. >> Uh, yes, that's right. They they were comfortable moving this one uh forward to the voters at town meeting. Okay. Thank you. >> Any other questions, >> Mr. Chair?
>> Yes. >> I make a motion that we uh move forward with uh and approve article 13, the 59 uh section 5C and a half. >> I have a second. >> Second. >> Any other questions?
Uh yeah, Mr. chair. Um I think last time we were looking for some direction as to how we would find these funds from the select board. Um Mr. Town Manager or representatives representatives of the
select board, did we get any indication or direction as to how we would fund this? Um I I mean we we have the I've got dozens of department heads asking for more money to to maintain
their current programs. So it will be a challenge and that's an understatement. Okay. Not not saying it's not worthwhile. Seniors and veterans is surely a targeted tax exemption. >> Good evening.
Um, you know, one of the ways we get new growth, and I do have some history to share, um, some numbers going back three fiscal years, um, new new growth gets, uh, certified by the Department of
Revenue just about probably within the next six weeks. Um so for FY uh 25 uh which was certified November of 2024 um we actually had uh new growth between
residential, commercial, industrial and personal property which all falls under the assessing department. Uh $1.6 6 million FY24 growth from the board of assessors uh
the was $748,786 and then FY23 was 832494. So on an average the last 3 years has been over a million dollars of new growth identified through the board. Um
you go back 10 years you do see some uh you know I wouldn't say like a hockey stick growth but significant climbing. Um, so, um, I think what we're asking for, um, you know, is a is $121,000.
And, uh, you know, I look at it, you know, you guys, the finance committee, those your job is to ask those questions. Um, and I think we can, um, safely say that, um, you know, we should
be able to find this money. And I think you know the people that um need this money have lived in town for 30 years, 40 years, and they were there supporting that roof in 1998 at the middle school. And right now um you know they're part
of our community and and if uh we can help them out um and continue on as growing the community to our agenda, I think that's all all all the better. So um I hope to answer that question. Mhm.
>> Okay. >> So, so um Mr. Durnney, the um article 13 out of article 14 as they're presented in the warrant do not have a figure attached to them. Do you have a current figure to attach to each one of those? >> Yeah. So, uh you mean numbers?
>> Yeah, please. >> Yeah. Um well, reducing the age from 70 to 65. Um give you the actual. So there is about 22% of our population
is over the age of 65 and that um just bear with me for one second here. My apologies. There we are. So um
so right now we have a total um of just under 4,000 people from age 65 to 90. And uh from age 70 currently, which is stated now, 70 to
90, there's um 2,69 residents. Um and out of that 2,609 residents, um we have um 60 participants in the in
service. So that's just under 02%. So if we took that I'm not an actuary but if we take that reduce that 70 to 65 is we have 1337 residents between the ages of 65 and 69
and we use that uh 0.02%. Um we're looking at another 26 people uh 52 people I'm sorry. >> So so Mr. Dy what I'm looking for is just a ballpark figure. Denise did go over all the actuarial stuff last
meeting, but just looking so we can include with article 13 or 14 a number of a dollar amount. >> Oh well, >> it's not going to go in. >> I don't think you can. You don't know how many people think. We're not allocating mine now. >> So, we're not that's why it's not included on it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> It's an unknown. The >> But that 26 times >> two 2% would be 52 people. >> What's the What's the total of that? the the 26 people estimated by the exemption amount. Do you have that figure?
>> Um that >> didn't they give us that last week? >> But the money but so then Sandy the money would be for next >> said she didn't know. >> Okay. >> So >> the money would be allocated next spring then for the following year. Is that correct? >> Mhm. >> So that's why we don't have a money figure for this year. I I guess I was just looking for a ballpark because it
seemed like the 121 and change was pretty clear, but Miss Alice was a little bit less clear about the other article, >> the impact of the other article that they're changing the age from 70 to 65. She wasn't sure what that number was. And it sounds like you have some ballpark figures. So, I just wonder if
we could finish that math. >> Approximately 20,000. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you, >> Mr. Chairman. >> Yes. Just Rick, you've been on this committee and uh you sat in the seat and you know you know how it is and you
bring up a good point. A million dollars a year and new growth, but just to put things in perspective, just the health insurance increase for the town employees, one line item is over a million dollars a year. One line item before we touched anything. Every
year we sit in these seats and we decide who we going to fund, who we're not going to fund, are we going to cut school teachers, are we going to cut firefighters, and now we want to take a cut. That's fine. But for me, I, you know, I'm not elected official. I'm a volunteer here. The select board should
tell me, hey, this is a priority for the town, and I agree with it. We should give give them tax breaks, right? But tell me this is a priority for the town, and we're going to fund it with X. I'm not an elected official. It shouldn't be cuz we're all going to be sitting here in the spring and we're going to be
doing exactly that math saying, "All right, who we cutting? Are we going to eliminate somebody from the senior center? Are we going to lay off a teacher? Are we going to do this?" That's coming. Now, if this if this over a debt exclusion doesn't pass now, we take 400 and somehat thousand, another
150, you know, half a million dollars right out of the budget. It is going to be a blood bath out there. I'm just tell, you know, as long as everybody's aware of that, that's fine. But let I don't want any people crying and being shocked here in the spring and we're sitting here saying, "Well, how did we get to this position?" Just everybody
should know that. >> Sure. And but we're elected and appointed officials and really who sets the budget are the people that come to the town meeting and vote. Correct. That's the bottom line. And um so yeah, there's fixed and shared cost. I mean, that's considerable and it increases
every year, I'm sure. Um but you know if we we're talking about this tonight and what we're asking for and um I think it's it's we all and we we when we presented it to the select board they
really u embraced it as well and also at that meeting was um Estelle from veterans and she was on board with the seniors as well. So, um, you know, we've done our homework. We have the numbers.
Um, we just want to have some momentum going into the meeting and say finance committee was behind this, select board was behind this, this is the reason why um the timing, you know, if not now when
right so um we feel that we've done our homework and um we want to move forward. >> Uh Mr. chair. Another question if I may. Um, and this might be for the town manager. Um,
is there a way to adopt these exemptions without decreasing the budget and instead spreading the cost over the rest of the taxpayers? Because personally, I'd rather pay out of my pocket than take it from the schools or wherever else we're
going to have to find it in spring. >> That's a great question. I think we can all agree that the seniors and veterans, you know, targeted in financial difficulties could enjoy a benefit with these exemptions. They're very specific. We adopt them and it takes from overlay
which takes from the budget. >> So the answer the short answer is no. >> No, >> there there are other exemptions. It's possible to it would take a special act. >> Mhm. >> But then it would be a burden shifting
and it would go from one class of taxpayers to another class of taxpayers. >> Mhm. >> But that's that's not what we're talking about. >> Yeah. I was just clarifi I figured this was not that wasn't an option, but just wanted to be sure. All right. I think that's all I have. Thank you.
>> Any other questions or >> Yeah, Mr. chair. I know um one one year we actually got money back from the overlay because we we didn't spend it all. Do we know um if that's have we been spending what we've been allocating for the overlay for for abatements and
things like that? >> We've been managing it. >> Okay. So, we have we don't have excess in there at all. Okay. Anything else? >> We already had a motion. >> Yep. We already uh had a motion in a
second. So, we'll uh we'll vote to clarify. Is this on both or one of them? >> Mr. Article 13. I thought we would take them separately. Yes. >> Okay. >> All right. Paul, >> yes. >> Gavin, >> yes. >> Tracy, >> yes.
>> Sandy, >> yes. Paula, >> yes. >> Zach, >> yes. >> Kevin, >> yes. >> I am to a yes. >> Onward. >> Okay, >> Mr. Chair. >> Yes.
>> I make a motion we approve article 14, increase in the eligibility from 65 from 70 down to 65. >> Do we have a second? >> Second. >> All right. Any discussion, questions? Nope.
All right. Paul, >> yes. >> Gavin, >> yes. >> Tracy, >> yes. >> Sandy, >> yes. >> Paula, >> yes. >> Zack, >> yes. >> Kevin, >> yes. >> And I too am a yes.
>> What else we got? >> That's all we had for you, Mr. Chair. >> Motion. >> Uh, thanks. So, and with our actual chair, we might not be able to answer these questions, but uh tomorrow we're supposed to have a joint meeting, and our chair mentioned I
might be the only one there. Is that the case? So, it's not really a joint meeting. >> Nobody. >> We nominate you as king. >> So, I guess I will respectfully decline as I always do when I'm nominated for things. Uh, I guess procedural question.
Can we even We can't have a meeting. >> No. >> So, it won't be a meeting. It's posted as a meeting, but if a quorum doesn't show, it won't be a meeting. Okay. It'll be a joint meeting of the select board and the planning board >> if they show up. >> Yes. If a majority show if a quorum shows up, yes.
>> Could you represent as well? >> I will. I'd be happy to represent. And then the Yeah, that's all I had. I thought I had something else. Oh, good. >> All right, we had a motion to adjourn. Have a second. Second. Need a second.
>> All right. Paul, >> yes. >> Gavin, >> yes. >> Tracy, >> yes. >> Sandy, >> yes. >> Paul, >> yes. >> Zack, >> yes. >> Kevin, >> yes. >> I too am a yes. Woo!