Good evening. Uh like to call the FINCOM meeting of July 13th uh to order. First thing would be the roll call. We have Steve Tracy.
Oh gosh. Stop doing this to me. >> You don't remember my name. >> Bill on this committee. >> Oh my god. Yes. >> I'm heartbroken right now. to have more meetings >> and myself. >> It's you.
>> I'm sorry, Paul. It's >> I have more senior moments. >> Okay, fine. I'll give you this pass. >> You know, it's been a while since we've last, you know, been together. It's
facial recognition and occurrence. Um, if everybody wants to stand for the pledge. To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible
liberty and justice for all. >> Okay. Um, so had this been a more um attended meeting, we we probably would do more on this agenda.
Um, first thing is we're holding off on the minutes. Not going to do that uh this time. We are definitely not going to talk or or do a reorganization
at this time. Too many people missing. Um so that brings us to introduction to some of the new town hall management. So Mark, >> thank you uh Chairman Rotundi. So we
have with us today uh two uh members of the the management team. Um on the the Zoom we have uh Bill who is one of our accountants and we have here with us assistant town manager Shannon McMahon who um uh so I guess I'll briefly
introduce uh Miss McMahon. Uh she we're lucky to have her. She comes with a vast uh experience in uh professional positions as a as an attorney as u having worked for insurance uh working
for the state government uh district attorney and um just brings a lot of perspective and has uh keen interest in saving the town money. Um, so do you want to introduce yourself?
>> Yeah, good evening. Uh, members, uh, this is Bill. I'm Bill Row. I, um, I am semi-retired. I am financial consultant with the firm of, uh, Eric Kinure CPI LLC, your interim town accountant. Um, I
spent 20 years as the town accountant in Stoton. Uh prior to that um I was the assistant town accountant in Brainree where I met Eric uh over 20 years ago uh actually almost almost 25 years ago. And then uh before that um before entering
local government I was member of an audit firm that conducted audits of municipalities and nonprofits. So uh thank you for having me tonight. >> Thank you. I don't know if you guys have any any questions of our assistant town manager
of our accountant. >> Um, >> get her to speak yet. >> Well, the the first thing from what Bill said and interim >> what define interim. So, we do have an ongoing town
accountant ad which we refreshed a week a week or two weeks ago and we have gotten a number of applicants, a few of them even qualified. Um, one of them took a job as the
business manager for a school district. Um, another one we declined to advance to the second round. Um, we had a couple other interviews that we declined to advance to the second round, but we're currently still taking
applications. If you know of anyone, have them cover letter and resume. Um, we we posted the job kind of on the low end of the scale hoping to get a deal, but we might have to increase that to get someone with experience
>> that within >> within the budgeted >> okay >> amount and significantly savings from prior years. >> Okay. >> And which I I would note that we are currently
um we have a savings. We're paying less for the consultants than we were for the the salaries. >> So, Mr. Chair, through you, Mark. So, is Bill able to just stay with us indefinitely until we hire? >> Um, I I from what I understand, Bill and
Eric um do a number of communities. I'm I'm not sure how many, Bill, but um >> I I'm not sure of the terms of the contract. I can find out, but I think I think we go till December 31st, don't we, Mark? I I believe so. I know that >> I know the year end stuff was taken care
of as well as the do reports. Eric had already started on them and that's typically October I believe. >> Yeah, we you know our main main focus right now is you know uh uh getting the new year open, getting the transfers
done, getting the incumbrances done um and then closing the books and getting the state reports done. First one would be the balance sheet which uh is for your free cash certification and then your uh schedule our schedule A
which would be the the revenues expenses that we report to the to the state as far as a part as part of their database and then um also you know prep the prep for the town audit get schedules ready and worksheets and stuff for the for the
auditors that they they need them. >> When is it >> Oh, and the tax and the tax recap of course. Yeah. Last but not last but certainly not least, the tax recap form so we can set the taxes >> by December, you know, by December 31st.
>> When is our audit? >> So that's usually in the beginning of the year for the last fiscal year ended. So the fiscal year that ends June 30th, they would start the following January. >> Mr. Chair. >> Okay. >> And just what's the um the terms of the
contract for bill? Is it peace work? Is it hourly? hourly. >> So he's hourly. So he's there all the time. >> And then >> he's he's remote actually. They they've been completely remote. >> Okay. And then who's Eric? >> Um Eric is u he's the owner of the
company. Kinsherf Accounting. >> Yeah. Eric Kinsherf is the um he's the owner of the company. He's got he's a CPA. He's got um uh his has his own firm. They I think he's been in business uh now like 13
years 14 years before that he was an audit firm and before that he was the um finance director in brainry and uh Dennis so tons and tons of experience. So, is the contract with the firm or with bill individual? >> With the firm.
>> The firm. >> Okay. >> Right. Thank you. >> And we have we have 13 members. So, um if I'm not available, somebody else can, you know, fill in, of course. >> And I'm just curious, Bill, how many
towns do you do? >> You're your firm. >> Oh, boy. H >> Come on. That should be one of your selling points. >> Yeah. Right. Right now, I think we're working on I'm going to take a guess roughly roughly 20 20 to 22
>> all in Massachusetts. >> All in Massachusetts. Y >> and the this is probably more to mark. there's not a need or if there's a need for you like getting together in person
is Bill available to do that or it's just remote? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, >> oh yes yes matter of fact I attended the I attended the town meeting back in the day. So Mr. Oh, that's right. You did. And and hiding. >> I think I was at the other end of the
room other from you guys. >> Mr. Chair, >> Steve, >> does the contract lay out the communication channel with that we the finance committee have directly with the firm or do we have to go to to town manager or is there a process that's
outlined in the in the agreement? >> I I'd have to check to be sure. I mean, is there anything you'd like? >> Not at this point, but usually we have a direct contact where we can call directly to the town accountant for our questions.
>> Yeah. Some sometimes we didn't go directly through Mike. We just went to the accountant. Okay. >> If there's anything you need, happy to take care of that anytime. Anybody
else? >> Thank you, Bill. Well, thank you folks. Thanks for having us. >> So, you want to stick around, Bill? We're doing end of year transfers. Exciting stuff. >> Oh, yeah. Yep.
>> We've been quite Mark and I have been quite busy over the past few days with these things. Um, okay. I' I've met most of you, uh, by now. Uh, many of you at town meeting. My name is Shannon McMahon. I am an attorney here in Massachusetts. Born and raised in Swansea, Massachusetts. Not
too far, but just far enough away for a nice decompression ride home. Um, I started my career off after law school as a judicial law clerk for about four or five years. uh I cl for every superior court judge in Bristol County
as well as some in Suffach County and some Plymouth County. From there I opened up my own practice in Stoton, Massachusetts where I did criminal defense work and family with family law. Uh from there I was approached by the then district attorney Sam Sutter who had asked me to join the team to come on
over and help with the sex crimes unit um which I did. Um stayed there for a few years. Sam eventually became mayor. Um so his second in command became DA. Uh after that I left and went into civil litigation uh with a firm outside of Boston for safety insurance after I was
their senior trial attorney there for 10 years. Um and when uh this opportunity arose um I recalled how much I loved being a prosecutor. It was without a doubt the best time of my career. Um and that was predominantly because of
working with the public and offering help to people who needed it. and I thought that some of my skills might be valuable to a town. Um, and hopefully you guys find it valuable as well. Um, it's been a whirlwind since I got here.
Um, it's certainly been never boring. I'll give you that. Um, and I think we're making some real progress. Um, the people I've had an opportunity to speak to have been wonderful. The community here is exceptional. Nothing else. Um, I' I've had a lot of opportunity to speak to the residents
and I've been uh flabbergasted by their concern, their patriotism, their civic devotion. Um, it's something that I admire. Um, and it makes me want to work even harder hearing that feedback from the people who I'm working for. So, thank you for inviting me here today and
it's a pleasure to finally get to meet you all oneon-one, not with town meeting above our heads. >> Well, thank you for coming. Um, >> no questions. >> No questions. >> No questions.
>> Got the hard. >> That's the best. >> Yeah, I'm taking it. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming. You don't have to stay. >> It's nice to see everybody. >> Enjoy vacation. >> Enjoy vacation.
>> Thank you very much. Um, with your permission, Mr. Chair, the budget report is uh next. So, this is this was printed out July 7th. Uh, a couple of prefaces, I suppose.
You'll see in parenthesis it says pending invoices, encumbrances, end of year transfers. So, that's just to say that this document is not anywhere near complete. Um, but this is a snapshot as of the the invoices that were entered
into the warrants as of July 7th for the warrant time date ended June 30th. And after that, there's already been another warrant. And there will be another warrant um on July 15th, the last day
we're legally allowed to make our final warrant for fiscal 26. After that, it's all fiscal 27s minus incumbrances. Encumbrance means as long as we incurred it by June 30th, we're allowed to pay it
in in the following year. Um as long as we get an invoice and we report it to accounting. Uh so so these numbers aren't final. Um but it it shows that if you add them all cumulatively it it's probably about a million dollars in
turnbacks. Um which is probably average for an $80 million budget. Um but that's not the final number because um as you'll see uh the incumbrance pages that were emailed to you um you know each
department's asking for you know money that they already incurred. Uh, for example, the assessors is asking to encumber $95,000 or the private evaluation firm that's going to come and then to tell us how valuable each commercial business is in
town because that's a specialized service they do. Um, so that's those are the numbers as of that date. Um, but they will be final um by the time we fill out the do reports uh in the fall.
Mr. Chair, >> Sandy, >> um when those are finalized, uh in the past we've gotten a just a spreadsheet of all the turnbacks by department, um and all incumbrances and everything else just to so we have that detail, can we get that once that's all finalized and set?
>> Of course. I would expect um late fall, early spring for that. Definitely in the midyear report. But but I mean razor thin um margins for most departments. We there's not a lot of fluff.
>> No. And we anticipated that, >> didn't we? >> I believe we did. >> There wasn't going to be a lot like turnbacks were going to be less, right? I'd be surprised if there was anything significant. We just received schools
incumbrances uh this afternoon. Um 300,000 um which will more than likely if I was a betting man I'd say brings their budget down below $100,000 left which is I mean that's that's what
school districts do statewide, right? >> They use the budget money and So, a lot of responsible use, not a lot of uh frills. You know, we we'd like to have the the nice fancy technology, but uh I mean, we do have this nice
building. So prior to this meeting you had mentioned something about the aged technology.
Is that being updated to make this easier in the future? >> Um so I'm I'm glad you mentioned that. That's been a real focus. And I mean, in talking to the the previous accounting department and you know why why is this
cuz I come from cities where they have the latest municipal software and you type a button, it says exactly how much is in each account, right? >> You can't do that here. You type a button and you get the last report that was generated two warrants ago when they posted it. And then you have to not even
get a spreadsheet. you got to take pencil and paper out and then do math and then 5 minutes later you're lucky if you get something that that kind of shows you what the the real- time budget would be. I I don't know how they they've done it so long. Um but so what
we're doing is pricing out uh technology and we have to get very creative here because we have to do it without increasing the budget. So I've talked to Dr. O'Neal and and how do you do it? Where can we find efficiencies? Okay, we're paying for four firewalls. U how
many do we need? Can we do it with one firewall and then a firewall backup and then we can save on two firewalls? Can we get your software? Can we downloads yours to an Excel? Um it download the Excel to ours upload it. Um for example,
for was it payables or payroll? Which is it? >> Payables. School payables. >> Uh so Christiey's working on a project. Do you want to tell them about it? >> Sure. Um I'm trying to find a way that the school's software could be compatible with the software we already have. Um
because I understand that um it's taken a number of hours for the school to enter their bills and then we then have to do the same to our software. Um so I'm trying to find uh it's called a definition file that can kind of read um read the school's payables um and
hopefully streamline us inputting them to not duplicate that work. >> Right. So we're we're spending eight hours on their end and then we reinput the eight hours on our end. That's that's in 2026. You shouldn't do that. Take the file and then convert it.
>> If if you're not on the same system, ideally you'd be on the same system, but but yeah, it should take five minutes. Um so we're looking at um efficiencies and where can we save time where can we consolidate positions even um in inter
departments you know that's why we're talking about like payables payroll person and and trying to streamline things and what I'm not trying to do is add positions. The only position you might ever see me bring back is is like a grants coordinator because I think
that position could exponentially bring back money. Um but but we're trying to um get the latest and greatest software at a discount at a deal. Um they actually started around two or three uh
million. I shouldn't talk too much about the negotiations publicly, but um but they're down to like less than 200,000 like and we're we still can't do it because it's still not budget neutral. So So I'm going to go back to them again. And if you're listening, we're we're coming
back. You've gone down from 3 million to 200,000 and we're still coming. Um >> will you and the schools end up having the same package once and for all? So you're only paying for one one. >> That was the 3 million. It was a combined school and town package
>> and that's just not economically feasible. The school's happy with their software, but there's few towns that go to that software because it only covers accounting and they don't even offer it as a standalone product. you'd have to get special permission and then it doesn't talk to treasurers or assessors.
So it's it's not really the school got a deal. It's like munis light is it's and if we could go to that that was my first option. I was like let's just do what they're doing because they they do have the capac capability to get real-time balances like in 2026 like everyone else
does. Not that I'm bitter but we'll make it work and we will get a modern software. It just might be like the Walmart one. Or if I can keep talking these people down, like we'll get one that can work fast and quick for a good price.
>> Well, if if we're using software and I'm just making up the date from 1950, can't we get one from like 2010, >> which, you know, brings us a little closer?
um which may which you know what is the >> we could we could I'm trying to be more more forward-looking and go with something that's going to bring us into the next decade and beyond. So ideally we would have something that could make treasurers assessors DPW software is
obsolete and then we could say we're giving up these five and we're getting this one and then >> that's kind of where I'm leaving. It's >> already old once you get it and install it's already starting to go backwards. They they want a year to install it and and train and then then they want like
but like overlap time so we can run the old and the new and and we're saying >> you have to >> well to avoid that expense we're thinking to start July 1st so we could just come off next June 30th and start with the new one July 1st and then we could say that
>> you still have to use backup because if it's not >> catching something you need the old one to catch it. So maybe we could do a trial run three months before and see if the numbers match. >> Yeah, >> I'm just trying to avoid the
that expense. But you're right, maybe it is worth doing, right? >> You're going to need parallel testing. >> Yeah, you can't just flip it because you're you're going to create a mess >> if if it's not 100% accurate. And I've
never known conversions to ever be 100% accurate on day one. >> Mr. Chairman, >> here too. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Um I believe this the software that's looking at they do provide two
practice databases, a test database and a train database as well as a live. So um you know if you can process a lot of stuff in in the training database, it's it's really helpful. Yep. Yep.
Um, is is this some of the I I'll always go back to my favorite topic. Is this some of the reason why we can't get a more robust projection of where we're going? Is because we have such a hard time.
>> Well, tell us where we're at, but if we need to know where we're at to know where we're going, >> right? So is is this part of the issue that you know I won't say from day one of me sitting in a fincom meeting that I've asked for
a projection and it's just like you know I I I get the deer in the headlight look like what are you asking for? >> Well you're looking for 10 years that's a little but >> we're gonna we're gonna have to make a >> I'm looking for like three >> we we will get you three years in the
spring. I can't promise it'll, you know, I know what's going to happen with the the oil industry and then the the construction and inflation and new growth, but we can use best estimates,
>> right? I mean, that's kind of what a projection is, though, best guess. If anybody else has comments >> as far as the uh the final budget so
far. Um just a couple of things. If you could level set the expectations when we can get the final budget school and everything >> first week of April. >> First week of April. >> That's the date the charter um says to
to submit it. Okay. >> This year it was April 6th. I haven't checked the calendar next year, >> but we like to meet on Mondays. So, the first Monday in April. >> Oh, you're Okay. You're talking about the current year's budget coming up.
>> Right. Right. I'm talking for fiscal 27. >> The fiscal year we're closing >> or fiscal 28. Sorry. >> So, the end is at June 30, 2026. >> So, we we tal we have estimated projections. We have not finalized our encumbrances. We might have a couple of
things. >> When will all that stuff be available >> for us to actually take a look at? >> So, it's usually when the the do certifies free cash. I know we like to do that early here in September. Most communities do it in October, November,
but we're >> we we like to get it done. >> Um we we should have a idea before then. Um I don't know why it was held close to the vest, but but um I'm
happy to share any as soon as we get it. I mean the the internal deadline is July 31st for departments to submit incumbrances and by then we'll be able to placehold them all and then know what the
turnbacks will be. Um, we'll have to reconcile the the local receipts, the how much building inspections collected versus how much we projected, the excise tax, um the the real estate tax collections.
Um, we have a 99.9% collection rate, which is gold standard. >> Yeah. Uh so we should know I mean October at the latest. >> So looking right now what percent
complete is 2026 June 2026 finalization is it 10%. Do we know if we have any problems at this point with revenue our projections are on? >> I mean there's going to be there's always free cash because we budget conservatively so we're not going to have a deficit.
>> No. No. And I'm not I'm not look I understand the process. I'm just trying to narrow down from for our group >> like >> the mechanics of it like how far along are we >> so we can start to plan >> get a meeting on there where we can actually talk about it. >> We can see the final numbers going.
>> Okay. So you're trying to see how we can analyze the budget that we just did and how we can do next year's budget better. >> Correct. Um, I mean, for all intents of and purposes, I' i'd say what's submitted by the
department heads. I don't know, Bill, correct me if if you have a better idea, but like what's once they put their incumbrances in June 31st, then we can process this. And then I'm not sure how this software works, but I would think you could generate a report including
those incumbrances. just assume we're we're paying them all and then that would be you know 95 to 98% of what the final budget would look like and that should be available you know August I I would I don't know
what do you think Bill >> 15th >> I don't know if MIP villa can do that or not I don't know if the software can >> we have I think we have most of the incumbrances from the departments it's just a question of you know once we post them which would take you know a day a
day and a half tops. Um we'll be able to produce the final expense reports. The only thing is there may be some stragglers. Um some departments may have forgotten about a bill that hopefully nothing substantial but you know is we
can pretty much encumber something up until the the books are closed. We don't encourage that. We try to get department heads to anticipate what they have outstanding and get them into us so we can encumber those. But um >> right, I I can testify that we've spent
over 40 hours going through email in the last week uh looking for bills like like like four of us have been doing that. Hopefully we got them all. >> So it should be pretty well covered. Yeah. And Bill, at this point, our 630
2026 revenue projections, any concerns with the actual um have not looked at those um yet. We've been focusing on the expenses, you know, getting the getting the uh bills paid, getting the incumbrances in. But I
can I can take a look at I'll be happy to take a look at those for you. Absolutely. >> Okay. And then know one of the one of the unique settlements that we had from previous year was the train settlement and I was wondering how that worked out if we have our final number. It was kind
of a unique formula that was created and I don't know where we never really chatted about that for the budget process. So for the uninitiated, what he's referring to is a agreement with a
vendor to upgrade the school's HVAC uh LED lights modernized to save inefficiencies. So there was an initial bond approved by town meeting for um X dollars, what whatever that was, 10 million, 20 million, and it's supposed
to give us lower utility bills and pay for itself. That was the marketing of it. Anyways, and in the agreement, it's a 20 or 40 page agreement. It's around here. Um, I can give you a copy if if you want. In it, it talks about a 5-year
check-in to so they can prove that in fact they are saving us money. That is about a year away. Uh so in in a year they'll be they'll give us a report and I'm sure their actuaries are going to
make their report show that they're saving us money. Now I think it's worth it to invest in having our actuary go through it and then say what do we think the results of this are and then if if we don't achieve the savings supposedly
they will kick in the difference according to their contract. I'll believe it when I see it. But but I think that's worth checking on our end. So I think it's a great point. We should calendar that and make sure that we challenge whatever
um result they they come up with. >> I thought I thought and I thought there was a component on that too that was that would impact the annual budget. There was some I remember right there was some kind of a I'll call it for lack of a better term a turnback that was going to come from
the schools. >> I I haven't seen it >> based on the efficiencies of the right I'm not Bill you remember >> I don't know if it was >> I don't know if it was a turnback but >> I mean there are like supposedly energy
uh electric credits out there. I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to. >> Could be. Again, it was very vague on the on the interpretation of how it was going to work. >> Right. >> What we were told is the schools in the town had agreed to quote unquote a formula that would I'm going to call it a
turnback, but it's not necessarily a turnback. That there would be savings that will come back to the town, I'll call it from s for some efficiencies. Well, um, yeah, I mean, it should have reduced
utility costs and that should bring the the bill low in theory. I just, um, I'm skeptical when someone comes in and they're trying to sell you something. If if if a saleman came in tomorrow, a bunch of companies do this. They just go around the cities and towns saying,
"We're going to save you money, but you got to pay us millions upfront." And that was our quandry where we went with this the exact same conversation, but we went with it. So now it's just finalizing the numbers. My last thing is is there when we're talking about new
software, I'm hoping eventually we can get some kind of a software that will show all of these overrides, debt exclusions, etc. on individual tax bills so everyone can see exactly what they're paying for, not just a lump sum number
on their tax bills. >> Is that potentially part of the conversations that you're having when we bring software up to current world or current date? >> Uh that's that's entirely possible. Um that's funny. I actually looked at that
earlier today um for because a neighboring town voted a debt exclusion and uh they were able to say that the the impact is $388 extra on the average tax bill this this was it this
yeah annual um so we should have the capability to mathematically do that I don't think do the state law allows tells you, they don't allow you to separate that out on the actual tax bills, but nothing would stop us from putting an insert and then breaking it
down that way. Um, it would be an extra I mean, if it adds to the postage, that's an extra cost. But if we're mailing these things anyways, if if we keep it under the postage, we just have to print print 12,000 extra pieces of paper. So, probably be worth it if people are
interested. >> Right. Thank you. Or you could just put it on the website, you know, a calculator. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> we could do that. >> This is your value. You know, this is what this is costing you. This is what
that's costing you. And add it up and hopefully it will get close to that that box on your bill. >> Sure. Because every year when we calculate the levy, we you take 2 and a half% of the previous year and then you
add the debt exclusions. And that's that's one number. So I don't know if you're referring to to say, you know, every debt exclusion. This one was passed in 2000. This was passed in 2004. This was and you see each one or you talking about as a whole the debt exclusion. I I think my personal
preference that Tom folks should see exactly what they voted for over the years broken down. If you want by date, by description, something more importantly, if it comes off, so they expect what's coming on, what's coming off, they could see it in their bill.
>> And if we do that through the tax bill itself or to your point, a a supplemental report, but there should be something that given to the taxpayers. >> There's there's probably a way to make that happen. um our our treasurer uses this new software and it maps out the
the debt and it shows where it's going to fall off, where the debt service falls on and she's got some of it, you know, targeted to fall off in the next two to five years and it it shows you the graph in the chart. >> Um so I mean I have the username password and but to make that available
to the public we can we can find a way. >> Okay. Thank you, >> Mr. Chairman. bill. >> One thing we could do is um which is very simple is tell show the taxpayer what percentage of the of their total
tax bill is going for each project. You just it's very easy. You just take the you just take the the project debt service and divide it by the total total levy and that gives you the percentage that applies to th those projects. So that's something we could do very simply.
>> Right. that that's kind of what I was getting at is that, you know, if there's a calculator of sorts, you know, the individual can figure it out. To Steve's point, though, you know, that doesn't tell you when it's going to end. Um,
which I think is kind of Steve's point. You know, it's great to see the number, but when does certain things fall off because, you know, no one's memorizing when we voted for it, how long it was,
you know, you just reluctantly pay the bill. We could probably get a Wheaten or a a Norton High intern here to to put that button on the website and to tell us to calculate it out for 20 years and you each paid, you know, $20 for the
roof for the next 20 years or whatever it is. >> My only recommend that would be awesome, but just make sure whoever does it this year doesn't go away and you can never do it again. You don't want single point of failures. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Uh so moving on to uh the highlight of the evening. Um end of year transfers. So I direct your attention to the most recent uh handout. Um so so Bill, this is the one that you've seen. I just made
one uh real-time adjustment before the meeting. I was able to negotiate a legal bill uh $2,800 less. Um, so the rest of it's the same as what you saw, Bill and this is the standard
at the end of the year. Uh, towns and cities, uh, under Massachusetts general law, uh, balance the books. It does not increase the town's overall budget. There's no additional appropriation. There's no additional tax as a result of this. It's simply realigning the
existing money so the town can use uh the finances to to its fullest. So here we rounded transfers to the nearest 100. Um you'll notice that overages are primary primarily in the operating accounts and
we're able to take salary surplus and plug the holes if you will. Um, and that results from the time it takes from one employee when they retire or move on. Um, it takes a month or two to to fill that gap. So, we have the savings there
and we've used that to to plug any um necessary holes there. So, it's pretty standard. If you have any specific questions, happy to to walk through any. Um,
>> so I I I would just walk through, you know, what happened in each case except maybe long-term debt, but like treasurer, you know, >> sure 94.
So treasur, that's department 147. So, the amount the account that and if you're following along, it's in the budget um handout. This is uh this will be page page eight of the year-to- date budget.
Um so, that's in your packet there and it'll show you which line went negative. So, the total uh gap here is 5,823. Um, and that is uh there were a number of little lines
that added up to that amount and we uh prrated 1112th of a month's budget. Um, because you'll notice the gap there is only,485. So if you're on it, it says page eight on the bottom >> if you're in the budget packet.
>> No, not on ours. >> No page number. You want to give them page numbers? >> No, >> there's no page numbers on there. >> You handed out the old >> That's extra cost information. >> Negative adds up to this. >> Mhm.
>> Okay. Well, next time we'll we'll we'll hand you the ones that we email you, >> Mr. Chair. Steve, so just as we go through this looking at so I understand it, right? So if I look at any of the negative numbers here, they should add up to the 5,800 for the treasur
collective budget. Is that what we're saying? So >> or the 5900 >> 5823, right? Oh, no. Transfer. Okay. 59. >> Okay. So you're rounding up. So I so I look at some of these and I guess it's
it's some of these are seminars and conferences, office supplies, uh banking services for the treasurer collector. Can you give a little narrative on how those got overdrawn? Something we didn't anticipate in the
budget or uh so I mean for office supplies that's that's just your standard uh WB Mason orders. um seminars and conferences. We just have a new treasurer that that came on. Um so we we had, you know, two two
treasurers we paid for and an assistant that was interim for a while. So that's why that one was a little more um banking services. Uh for whatever reason that was underbudgeted, it shouldn't have been. Um but they didn't set the budget number
according to the the appropriate expenses that come in every month. And then so it looks like the total there is,485, but then we added one 12th of the 52,000 to that 1485 to get us to the 5,823.
So we're asking for a a little maybe a little bit more of a buffer than than necessary, but a buffer that Bill and I are comfortable with. I I I see what you So you're you're factoring in a little um variance when
you're talking the 52,000 that's the actual expenses overall. You're taking 112th of the actual expenses as of 630. That's what we're saying here. >> Yes. Or maybe I even misspoke. Maybe 112th of sorry the final budget. So one 12th of the which one was it Bill? The
the budget or the actuals? The 112th. We lost Bill. He's on mute. >> Yeah. 112th of the actual. >> Okay. U where we didn't have definite um numbers. We took 112 the actual as an
estimate. >> Okay. So that's okay. An estimate. >> I mean so so hopefully it'll be it'll be lower lower. It'll be closer to that 1500. Um but um >> and then will any of these under budgeted accounts like you said about
banking services is that going to impact our 2027? >> We we fortunately budgeted appropriately. So the treasurer tipped me off to that one and then said no no actually these are the bills we pay every month so you need to ask for a little more. So we did cover that one.
>> Okay. If I'm looking at this, how do I get to that? >> So, so you take the the 1485, see that? >> Yeah. >> And then you add
1112th of 52,000 to that 1485. Um, so 1112th of 52,000 is roughly what? 4,800. So like 4,800 plus 1,400, that's 5200. Uh, 5,800.
Close enough. >> Because these balances as are as of >> uh May. I I mean it's it's supposedly as of I mean there's one more warrant that's
going to be run for fiscal 26 and so the thought process is that warrant is going to be approximately 1 month. So on July 15th we'll run the last warrant that will cover June in in
theory. Not it's not perfect but I don't know in I think it's a little conservative. It's a little generous so we don't go over cuz we don't want to under encumber cuz do would not be happy. Our auditor would not be happy.
It's better to over encumber. And that would would impact free cash because every dollar you encumber that you don't need to is a dollar less of free cash that you're going to have. But I'd rather be safe. So,
I mean, when we have this real-time software next year, we're not going to have this problem. >> So, members of this committee, because maybe I'm truly having a many senior moments, this is not how it's
happened in the past. In the past, this meeting is here are a couple of bills. Mhm. >> There's I I don't know what's happening right now. Truly, >> Bill, doing 30 towns, is this what you see normally happening or do you just
see a couple bills getting paid? >> Historically, it's been a couple of bills getting paid >> here. >> Historically, >> here at at at this meeting in July for the Norton Fincom, it's been a couple of bills. So this 131,000
and taking 1112th of something, I'm like, what the heck is going on here? >> I I I can I can see the one2 I can see that formula. It's It's kind of like I hate to even say it, but it's talking about 10 12ths of a revenue, right? It's a projection.
>> I I get it. >> Well, right. >> But how did we do it before? And I there's no one here to answer that, but how did we do it before that they didn't go through this? >> But so is the oversight changing? I do
agree with you where we didn't see this. So is there oversight that's changing where we're not keeping up with the I'll call budget versus actuals that these are all coming now and we're we're estimating or we're finalizing the expenses only at the end of the year.
pretty pretty much I mean the the purchase order system being kept I mean it wasn't keeping balances in real time so there wasn't a real check and balance on people overspending I mean unless you went to the accounting
office and you took and you went through the the physical pieces of paper and and took up and did 5 + 12 plus 11 and and hand did it out then you would know how much you have to spend But that that's kind of like nobody does that
>> computers do. >> That's what concerns me a little bit, right? Is the oversight of the budget process. >> Mr. Chairman, >> Bill. >> Yeah. Mark and I just found out recently that the
um the budget warning function in the town software, we had it turned off, >> right? >> So, it's just recently turned on. So, And um another thing is we don't use the requisition and purchase order system.
So you really don't have any idea of what's out there. The department head would have any idea but we wouldn't have any idea what's out there. Um but if if we had a requisition and purchase order system then you know um and we we we told we enforced it and said you look you got to
you can't order anything until you have PO then um you know obviously it's a much better system of control. >> So is that the 2026 budget year that it was turned off and before it was on or is this
>> it's it's never been turned on until now. So I I I I guess my again there's no one here to truly answer this question, but were
Mike and James prior, you know, management team, I'll put it that way, kind of assuming this 112th bit and doing some math in the background and going, "Oh,
these are the bills we're not, you know, we need to cover and just showing us that. So, they were doing the same thing but not showing us that they were doing this because again, I'm I'm at a loss to what
this is. >> I wonder, Mr. share too. Part of it is that the budgets were cut so tight that there's more of the shuffling of the deck that's needed. You know, where we repairing the budgets back. >> I mean, I I can't speak to what they did
before I got here. I know they did use some Excel spreadsheets. So, maybe there was a master Excel somewhere and someone was physically walking around to all departments and saying, "Did you buy this? Did you not buy this?" I I I actually thought they were when it when
it came to the end of the year, they were actually, you know, what is outstanding that we need to deal with. That's what I thought. I don't think, you know, I'm not >> So, they were compensating for the lack
of a real-time system by by manually performing that task. >> Yeah. I'm not defending it, but it's way different than 112th is again an assumption.
>> So it's not a it's not a to me it's not an a real number. It's an assumption. >> Sure. So we're assuming and we're asking for this money based on well we have some we we have you know 1400 say that
we we need to deal with but we're assuming one month out of the year and adding it to it to say no we need 5900 and that's that's my concern. It's like that's not real math either.
I mean, >> so what do we need? >> I mean, so if you're looking to the penny, um, we could spend about a 100 man hours and then get it to the penny. Would we shave off maybe 10,000? Sure. But are we going to get that 10,000 and
use it later either way? Yes. And we're going to save the 100 hours. So I I guess this becomes a process question. Again, prior years, the person sitting here
would be presented with $5,900 for the Treasury Department. We need piece of paper, signature. I'm not I'm not thinking any of that's happening. So how
>> so at the end of the day, we'll ask a a motion if the committee's inclined to make for a transfer of $131,700 as laid out in this chart. And it's the second chart and it's going to say there's nine departments. We see these
exact dollars and cents overages and we're asking for transfer rounding up to the nearest 100 of that amount. >> Mr. Chair >> Paul, >> we also had it was um like fire expense to fire salaries if there was an issue.
It was generally within the same line items. Here it's being flipped right around. So fire salaries is bailing out another department and stuff. So >> we tried to do that where it was possible >> to to match the same department. >> Mr. Chair, >> they're assuming >> Sandy,
>> can we um Mark, can we look at 135 accounting? Um >> uh so this is a a good example. This one should be to the penny actually. So, this didn't involve the 112th uh assumption where we could get it down to the the penny we did. Um, so we have our
our the overage here is 13,000. So, if you go to 131, it's going to be on the budget page >> I'm looking at 135. >> Page six. 135, right? Um, so it'll be the sixth page of your budget budget
packet. It'll say $28,000 surplus in salaries and $5,244 deficit in operating costs. Same page. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> So, the deficit in operating cost is a result of the accounting consultant and
the overage in salaries is a result of not paying accounting staff salary. So, we're able to completely offset that exact dollar and cents expense with the excess dollar and cents revenue. So, I mean, we round it up to the
nearest hundred, but it if you look at the chart uh that I submitted, uh so it's $13,000. So, so, so you take that $5,244 and you're going to add the exact bills that came in to get to $13,000. So, so
that there's about >> But that's what we're not that that's what I'm not seeing. >> Where's the 8,000 coming from? Is that somewhere else? >> So, there's 8,000 accounting invoices from from Bill >> that that's nowhere in here, though. >> Yeah, that's that's this is a couple
weeks behind. That's what you're saying at the very start of the meeting, >> right? It's not in the budget yet. It's not in the computer yet. We're going to input that um July 15th, but we're required to vote >> before July 15th. >> Right. >> But the law says we we do the last
warrant for the fiscal year on July 15th. >> So that's the 8,000. But but again, you you're asking for a vote on stuff we're not seeing where where I'm hearing and
I'm getting an explanation sort of but I'm not seeing it. I I don't >> Can you explain this better than me, Bill? I I >> am I >> so normally given normally given the
amount of time what we would do is since we don't have a purchase order system you would send out say a month or so in advance saying tell me what you have here's your budget as it is now tell me
what you have left for bills to come in and then you would add that to what's available and see if there were any deficits and then you would process a transfer request a transfer amount for the amount of that deficit.
Um and it it's just a question that we didn't have the time or resources to do that given the given the changes. So that's why we in some departments we needed to come up with an estimate and for lack of a better you know it was my
idea just to take 112th you know we know what the accounting bill is we know what the legal bills are those are real numbers um and then Mark mentioned there was another one the uh yeah the legal so but some of the others were
112 like for example um treasure collector we took 112 12th uh municipal buildings we took 112 uh street lighting street lighting electric bills those are
the ones which in my experience we had the most trouble and the ones we would wind up with town meeting requesting an unpaid bill appropriation were the were the utility bills because for some reason departments just couldn't anticipate
how much they would have in util bills and plus, you know, sometimes we would get bills in six, seven months, eight months later and um have to go to town meeting. Um board of health, we yeah, we forget board of health, we took that out. Um council on aging, we took 112th
as well. And um that was last week. That was last week. You know, we did get some incumbrances in this in this week. Um, so I mean if you folks were planning on meeting on Wednesday, we could probably
try to fine-tune it, but you know, this is our last chance. Um, appropriation deficits have to be raised on the recap and plus they deduct that from your free cash and it just doesn't look good with the
do if we have a whole bunch of appropriation deficits. So, so we tried to, you know, make estimates where we could um in time for this meeting. >> So, um and given take keep in mind this does not affect the turnbacks one way or
the other. The turnbacks are going to be the same regardless of what you vote. Um, so >> see see here here's my concern and and this is just
Bill's concern. We are here to the benefit of the town's people to make sure we are not wasting or misappropriating
tax dollars and you're what I'm hearing and what I think I'm being asked to do is to opine on something based on guest estimates and I'm personally against that. You
know, I I the rest of this committee can say otherwise, but I was expecting hard numbers, not gueststimates. This this puts us in such a bad
such a bad situation that, you know, I wouldn't want my name connected to it. That's my opinion. Mr. Jin, >> Steve, >> um, Bill, how how confident are you in the So, you're you're you're saying that
these budgets you're transferring the funds from, you have a a a degree of comfort that these budget numbers are accurate because you're transferring from this budget to another budget >> from the source funds. Yeah, I did I did
a little spreadsheet which has the um you know the available balance like for example on accounting salaries and deducted the transfer amounts to make sure we had a surplus in those in those source accounts >> but to that degree. >> So yeah, those those are fine.
>> So there's no there's no question that the source accounts are fine. >> So you have a high degree of comfort that that those numbers are accurate. >> The source accounts. Yes. Okay, >> Mr. Chair, >> again like like Mark like Mark said,
he's we built in a buffer for departments which we didn't have the incumbrances as of last Thursday. So what is the effect of that? Um the effect is you may take some money from
one department, transfer it to to another department in excess of what that second department is needed, but it's not going to affect your overall turnbacks. Your overall turnbacks are affected by your expenses and your actual incumbrances. >> So given the interest of in the interest
of timing, we really didn't have >> so Mr. Chair >> time to get hard numbers for all of these departments. But again, we're gueststimating. We We don't have hard numbers to say that these are the expenses. We're guesstimating these are
the expenses. And >> so, Mr. >> Maybe it's me. I think we look like fools. >> Well, the only thing is, Mr. Chairman, if we if we took the treasurer's, you know, $4,300 away and then she gets a
bill for 2,000. Now we've got an appropriation deficit that we have to report to the do. So that's that's the that's the drawback. >> I'm I'm not >> You've put you've put this commit again
my opinion speaking just for myself. This committee is in a no-win situation based on the information that has been put before us on this evening. >> I completely disagree, Mr. Chairman.
These were these are the result of uh individuals who have put their career into practicing. >> It's not we best practic and we've walked into a broken system. >> I I but the system was working. >> We've done it every year. It wasn't
>> thank but it was because we had headed toward a cliff. I when it came to paying the bills at the end of the year in this meeting the system was not broken. You were asking
us to base it on gueststimates and it's not 5,000 10,000. >> So far it's 2 or 3,000. We're going line by line and it's been 2,000 or 3,000. It's 131,000. You're asking for guesstimates.
>> If you don't want to endorse the guesstimates, then vote against the gueststimate. Vote for the 1,600 that's in front of you. >> So, so we'll come back with a report in a month and show you the actual bills that vary from what was presented tonight and to the final numbers. We can
do that in August or September. >> Every dollar, every cent so you can fulfill your obligation. That's too late for this meeting and it >> so this meeting you have to pick a number and vote >> and then it >> Mr. Chair >> Sandy >> I just
>> can I just I I just I think that the issue for me is the the lack of I would say transparency right that this is there's these numbers here that we got last night which again the day before to me is not okay to get
things be the day before. I was going to mention that >> and and but on top of that, what we got is not um is just these numbers that may make no sense that that that aren't explained anywhere. Um and so now we're processing right this new information
and voting on the same night and and with little with no time to to prepare to look at the numbers ahead of time um and and have any kind of a you know a processing time. So, you're asking us right now to just kind of listen to these numbers. This 8 like it's not even
just the the estimated, it's the 8,000 for the um 135 accounting, right? Things like that to me that aren't laid out somewhere are really hard to make a decision and vote on. And of course, because we waited until right before the
the deadline, we're now in a position where we have to vote. And that is not great either. This this would have been a great topic on the meeting that I was trying to get posted in June.
>> Here's what's going to happen in the July meeting. Here's what we're doing. Here's how it's going to differ from prior years so that the people here, the members of
this committee would have a better understanding and not at the last second to try to come up with yay or nay. Mr. Chair >> Paul. >> So the other question behind the scenes
here is these are deficits in this past year's budget. Is that going to be compounded that much more next year whereas they were underfunded for some reason back toback years then Mark or what? So we're not seeing the details to why these are short which is part of Sandy's point. In the past we have heard
that yes there was an unexplained issue where we had to get another $3,000 worth of legal opinions because of a planning board meeting. We actually got that kind of a detail with why we were back feeding budgets. >> So you are getting the details the dollars and cents on well over 99% of
the budget. >> But not the wise they were over though Mark you know overs and and I'm looking down here. It looks like accounting salaries isn't exact. Um employee benefits is exact. Legal is exact. Um municipal buildings is an estimate for
the gas bills that we haven't received yet. Um the street lighting I believe that is an estimate for the electric bills we have not received yet. Um council on aging is an estimate for some senior center bills as you'll see in the
incumbrance sheet that was given by the COA senior center. There's a number of question marks on there. We could go through it and say okay we think this is a yes this is a no. Um, but all the dollars and cents are here. To pretend it's not here because it's not in the
same format as before is nonsensical, respectfully. And the interest on long-term debt is exact. The $242.65 is exact. >> The fuel overage is an estimate because we have not received the gas bill. So,
there are three or four estimates under$10,000 that may be $15,000. We're happy to come back and give a full and complete report, dollars and cents. >> Mr. Chair, Paul, I don't think that
there's going to be checks written that aren't due at some point to someone at some point in time. So, I would like to go ahead and make the motion to move the total 131,700 as detailed in appendix A and put this to rest for now, knowing that next year
we're going to have better software to make this stuff lifetime. and I'll second that. But I think this is one of the things where I think we need monthly meetings. We we need to have more discussion >> so we're all on the same page. I'm willing to move on at this point what we
have in front of us. >> We don't like it unfortunately, but I think more frequent conversations and more frequent touch points will make this a lot clearer. >> Mr. Chair, Mr. Chair, >> Sandy, >> I I'm happy to vote for it tonight, but I would like for Mark to hear what we're
saying. And I'm not sure that I I I don't not feeling like he's hearing what I'm saying. >> I'm not >> that that we would like again in the future to have these more laid out. Um and and yes, it's only maybe only a you know a certain percentage or whatever, but that's I think a reasonable request
from a volunteer committee. And so I would hope that you would hear that and make some changes in the future based on our feedback. That's all I think we're asking. to the best of my ability. I I just >> I don't think it's effective to have someone run around town hall and and whip people. And >> I'm I'm not
>> I will give you I will give you everything that you're asking. I I promise I'll bring it next month and I'll give you every dollar and and cent there's nothing >> and and you should ask for that. You're the finance committee. I'd be mad if you didn't ask for it and I'm happy to produce it.
>> And and the other thing, you know, Sandy touched upon it. It it you know hit me this morning or I think it was this morning when I saw the emails.
We are a volunteer committee. I can't speak to everybody on this committee or for everybody on this committee. Most of us have day jobs. So
to get an email at 7:30 on a Sunday and be expected to be on top of it from Monday evening when we have a day job, which is not the town of Norton
is is disrespectful to the people on this committee. We have asked for this stuff for two cycles Friday at the latest Friday latest.
>> Understood, sir. And >> it's not understood because it keeps happening. >> And I could have given you a draft of where we were Friday. It would have been four or five items different than where it was today. So I if you if you'd like that draft, be happy to. I would have
loved to spend the day at the pool with my wife and kids. Instead, I was here all day Saturday and Sunday. >> You get paid to be the town manager. We volunteer to be the finance committee. There lies the difference.
>> You get paid for this. So, if it's >> if it's 40 hours or if it's 120 hours, that's what you get paid for. That is not what we get paid for because we do not get paid. So respect our day jobs.
RESPECT our other duties that are not in Norton and we are not getting that respect because this continues. Sure. We we can do it all in two weeks. Again, we can talk about every dollar and cent. And when when we have a functioning
software system and PO system, we can have a more meaningful conversation that you're used to. I I get there are many things broken in this town.
But if everybody wants to be on the same page, then there needs to be some cooperation to the members for the members on this committee
whose task it is to look at these this information and make an informed decision and vote. Mr. Chair, >> Paul, >> I'd be shocked if the town manager
hasn't got the message yet. >> We have a motion and a second on the floor. >> Mr. Mr. Chair, just I just one last question. Mark, just so I'm on the same page. If I look at data processing,
all right, and when you're saying the transfers are based on it's only the the categories that are negative, correct? So if I look at the if I look data if I look at data processing so >> so that's a bad example because there's no data processing in the budget here.
So so that was in surplus for operating and for salary >> I'm looking at the schedule was provided tonight with data processing department that shows is a office salaries that's overdrawn 40,000 bucks. >> I'm not seeing that. >> I don't have a page number but it's
account 155. But I just want to just so I understand these transfers if the depart if the section and I'll call it the salary section is positive. >> Yes. Then there's no >> fine. So you don't you can move the funds, >> right? So data processing that there's
14,000 positive. So we're not asking anything for that. >> Okay. So it's just if the category you're in is a negative. That's what these transfers are fixing. >> Right. So there were nine negative accounts. >> Thank you. So >> just
>> we have a motion and a second. >> Never seen that before. >> To approve total transfers in the amount of $131,700. Is there any further discussion? >> Mr. Chair, do you think we should go
line by line specifically stating the from the account to account? >> I did say it's detailed on appendex A. Do you still want to read it or >> I don't know >> details on the piece we got? >> You want that do it?
>> I think you could say as presented. Uh that's what I said as presented in the appendix A. >> I defer to the chair's >> Yeah. >> interpretation. >> Actually, I'd take what I just said back.
We have a motion and a second. >> I think that >> to approve 131,244. Is that >> it's it's the um the $131,700. >> So then what's additional
>> overage? But the transfer would be rounding up to the nearest 100 >> back to the 131,700 >> as presented >> as presented in appendix A. And
>> you think we need to go in the past? >> It's fine. We have in the past, but it's you don't want to. >> That's a lot of call, Mr. Chair. >> Want me to read it in? Yeah, I would read them as presented in appendex A. 147 treasure
collector salaries 510 salary surplus transferring 5900 to 147 treasures 570 operating uh with the overage of 5,82322. uh 135 accounting salaries account 510 salary surplus 13,100
uh to account 135 accounting 570 operating uh for the overage of $13,32.34. >> Well, I don't even think you have to read the overages. I think you can just say the transfer amounts. >> Just the transfer amounts. >> I think that's all I need. Uh 2020 fire
salaries 510 salary surplus transferring 14,600. Uh from account 940 insurance 570 insurance surplus uh 26,600. The 940 insurance 570 insurance surplus 34,700.
The 147 treasury collector salaries 510 um salary surplus of 4,500. the uh 135 accounting salaries account 510 to salary surplus 9,000. Um 135 accounting salaries 510 salary surplus
300 and a 220 fire salaries account 510 salary surplus of $23,000 for a total $131,700. >> Motion and a second. Any further discussion hearing? None. Steve. Yes,
>> Tracy. >> Yes, >> Paula. >> Yes, >> Sandy. >> Yes, >> Paul. >> Yes. >> I'm going to say no for the reasons I've already outlined in
this meeting. Motion uh passes 5 to one. So now we go to the fall town meeting scheduled. >> Uh thank you, Mr. Chair. uh fall town
meeting is scheduled for October 19th at the high school and warrant articles are accepted until August 21st uh at the town manager select board's office. We have received a couple of submissions uh King Phip Road and uh another unpaved
road uh Charlotte Road. Um we but before that there's a little schedule uh which we were trying to work up so we can plan ahead for uh finance committee's schedule if the committee's inclined to place mark these days or or work through
it later. Um but given the charter deadlines we we worked up the first finance committee meeting. Um here it was scheduled for the 7th. That that doesn't work cuz that's Labor Day. Um, so August 31st, subject to your approval
would be our suggested first meeting. August 31st, that's a Monday. And uh, the next meeting um, if So the way this would work out, we would have one, two, three,
one, two, three, four, four meetings if that's enough without meeting on Wednesdays. So, so August 31st. If you want to meet the following week, it'd have to be on a different day than Monday um because of Labor Day. Uh the next one would be the 14th. So, that would be either be the second or third
depending if we met on a different day than Monday. Um the next meeting would be the 21st, and that would uh the 14th would be the public hearing, and the 21st would be the final uh recommendations. Um, so we'd be looking at four meetings
or five meetings. Um, which seems to me reasonable if we're not talking about the budget. It's not the spring. It's just warrante articles. >> So 8:31 9:14, which is the uh public hearing on the
14th, >> right? I mean, unless you wanted to meet uh, you know, during the week, >> you're going to have a public hearing and or we're not even going to potentially be halfway done.
>> I think are we meeting on the Wednesday, September 9th in between? >> That's probably advisable. >> So 8:31 79714 >> 99 >> 99 9 914 >> 99. Thank you. >> Uh 9:14 >> two work days before the public hearing
bill, >> right? And then 9:21 >> 921 >> we needed. So that that would be the I mean if if you vote it at the public hearing you could just vote them all then or or you could do >> I'd say the 21st would be the last.
>> So Mr. Chair, part of this is tamount of us having the information almost presented on that first night that we get together and have and have not a lot of stuff changing and so that we can look at it for those first two meetings and then have the public hearing and hopefully just vote on it.
>> When does a warrant close? Uh that's the previous page. That's August 21st. >> Okay. So there should >> be finalized. We should be able to >> Yeah, there should be no surprises then. >> And we usually like to have the select board's input ahead of time. Correct,
Mr. Chair? >> Yes, we can. >> We we like >> that on a select board warrant. >> Uh so so they meet usually every two weeks. I mean I maybe they could meet every every week. I'd have to coordinate with
uh with the chair and I know they like to opine on the the articles as well. >> We usually get the opinion first. Right. >> Mr. Chair, I would just like to say that the for the anything financial like the transfers, budget transfers if we can
get those as soon as possible. So those are, you know, we'll have the warrant article language and everything for the different articles, but >> the supplement supplemental budget. >> Yeah, we usually don't get those numbers ahead of time. We're not doing a supplemental budget. We we budget in the spring. That's that's the annual budget.
>> We're not We're not transferring anything at all. >> Departments used to like to go back to the well mid year. We're not doing that. >> Okay. >> Okay. Well, that makes it easier then. >> Yep. >> Oh, okay. >> A lot easier. >> New sheriff. >> It's a new indicator. >> That's great.
>> Um Yeah, that makes it easier. >> Sometimes new can be good. So, for the purposes of this committee though, even though we're down
fiveish people, do we want a meeting ahead of this process like a week or two earlier in August, not to go over these things, but to go
over other >> the minutes, the recon the re the re reconfiguration of the committee and stuff. We still need to do that probably in advance. So, >> and Mr. Chair, I just with August and knowing vacations and everything, obviously, if we're going to do
reorganization, we want to have as many members as possible present. So, I don't know if that would be guaranteed for an August meeting or not. Well, well, I mean, we do have the 31st plugged in as >> Yeah, I was thinking if he was wanted to do an earlier August, we may have an
issue with that. >> So, reorganization on the 31st, >> right? But I'm I'm speaking to what you guys have all said. We want to meet, you know,
monthly off this stuff. So, >> I agree with you. I think we should be meeting about >> Yes. I was just saying for the reorganization part, >> right? No, I that's why I didn't do it tonight. There's not enough people here.
Um, but for the purposes of other items that many of you have emailed me about, do we want an earlier meeting in August
to hit those items, not warrant and and fall town meeting? >> And you'll continue to be chair for that next meeting then if we did that. >> No, I quit. But um
>> yes. So >> if we can >> Okay. >> I mean we tried for June. I don't know what happened. >> So let's let's try for something mid mid mid August and if we away and we can if we'll call in from Zoom or something if we can or whatever. But uh
you know >> and your schedule >> my uh I mean I I'll do my best to to make the committees will work. I I would ask if you want anything prepared to I mean we
could just give you a budget report every month and maybe you could look at that at your leisure. I mean on your own vacation schedule, but is there something specific you want from us? >> Well, that there were things that I
emailed for the June meeting that we haven't touched on yet. >> The only thing we didn't put on was the three-year outlook, and we're going to do that in the spring. >> Mr. Chair, >> no, there were more. >> Yeah. I I'd also like to talk about OPED and and sort of the um sort of aligning
our priorities on that because I feel like we're not necessarily all in the same place on that right now. >> So >> we could have a theoretical decision discussion on OPED. I you feel free to stop by and and I'll have any a
discussion anytime. um that I can for you a nice article I just read on on OPED talks about we are lagging behind most Massachusetts communities but that said I understand the fiscal position we're in and we don't have to go from 0 to 60 immediately um
>> we're not a Porsche >> but happy to have those conversations it could be as part of the free cash strategy in October so that that would be the point of the having the meetings outside of you know
the specific of warrants and articles. So I'll >> Mr. Chair >> send out a a few dates. Let's see who responds
and then I'll forward it to you to see if it works. >> So, >> when's the next meeting? >> That's what we're trying to 31st at this point. >> Mark, >> August 31st.
>> Mr. Chair, I mean Bob. So Mark, you part of the thought process I thought was that we're trying to find out the direction you're trying to go. Before we're sitting here at a meeting that's that's like has to be done. So if you're looking to shift how the free cash went
this year that was a little different from what we were used to and in the end we come to a middle ground where we transferred some funds that you weren't happy about kind of but it made everything work for this year. We don't want to be bucking heads if we can help. We want to try to have it be a smooth process. I think that's what some of
these summer meetings, Steve, were supposed to be to try to work out some of the direction where there isn't concrete numbers involved. Just the whole maybe the philosophy kind of a thing, Mark. And you know, you're you're you're in here trying to shift gears and I think the gears need to be shifted,
but maybe if we had the conversations in a more friendly man beforehand rather than waiting until it's down and dirty and the night has to be voted on or something. So I think that's why >> these are respectful professional differences. Paul we're we're we're trying to fix the clutch at this point.
So you know we can shift >> to not have it chattering. >> Yeah. >> I also think some of the things too right we we're talking about operational efficiencies right what metrics are you going to be using to measure those efficiencies? We don't really know at
this point. Those are conversations I think we should be having so we're on the same page at the beginning of the fiscal year, not towards the end. So what do we because we got a whole host of new positions, new leadership positions that are gone and we we we
restructured the water and sewer departments. They have interim management levels. We let layers we didn't fill layers. We have an IT technical person, >> right? All those things. And we we reference to the town folks operational
efficiencies. I'd like to be able to come and ask any town folk that ask me how did that go? Explain those to them. So we should be having those conversations. And how are you going to measure that to have those conversations with us? >> All good questions. Um off the cuff, I'd
say dollars saved would be the primary measure. >> Yeah. And I'm looking for tonight, but I think that's the conversations that we'd like to have. So we're all on the same page when we go through this. It won't be at the end of the year when we start our budget process. We save funds. We whatever it is, right? We just want to
know what those are up front. >> Sure. I mean, we could we could do whatever you want. We could have a August deep dive into public works and bring the the director in and um talk about, you know, we go line by
line uh on whatever account I mean, I want to be a productive use of our time. So, >> Right. Right. >> May maybe we, you know, share a report with you in advance, something you're interested on like like OPED. May I I
know you're interested in that. Maybe I can bring back a OPED policy and then we could have a meeting on that and get feedback, get your direction and and then when we come back for the free cash that no one's surprised when we land on
say a middle ground number that wasn't what I came to the table initially wasn't what your idea was initially. >> Yep. Makes sense. >> Really need Paul for the OPED though.
Paul, go rest him. >> I I I don't know how optimistic I am about vacation schedules if we don't select a date now. But I'll leave that to your discretion. >> I got almost half half the people absent. So, it's hard to pick a pick a
date. >> Where's the trusty calendar? August 3rd. How's that work? >> Now, great. You're going to have to just send an email to >> the group >> with a uh possible remote link.
>> What? >> If needed. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I'll come back on a motorcycle. I'll be to give you an excuse to go for a ride. >> I'm not even going to ask. >> I'm I'm happy to place hold that in. Is
there any specific deliverable the committee would like on August 3rd? >> Metrics on operational efficiencies. >> Not sure that's going to be ready in two weeks. >> The um OPED with with including that
50,000 that we just included. Um so an update on the OPED since we did just approve money in the spring. >> We could do a dive into the OPED account. Yeah, just like a list of like where we're what we've appropriated in the last >> I mean I could have my I come with my
initial thoughts on operational efficiencies. I would just want to make sure I'm aligned with the the department the division heads on their goals and then have those meetings and flush it out before I you know >> you could give a high level >> I don't want to say something I'll have
to walk back. >> Yep. No, understood. Understood. >> And Mr. Sheriff, I don't know if anyone wants to say anything from the >> We got >> We did I don't know if that was the uh the town meeting warrant uh
>> King Phillip Road Charlottville Road. >> Well, I sent that email or forwarded that email to everybody >> today. Are they here to speak on that? meeting had anybody. >> Yeah, you're here and you sat through
our meeting. Give you a chance to wake up first. Just kidding. >> Get to the microphone though because you are you are on TV so on the mic. >> I will. I'm just trying to find what I sent to you guys >> and I need my glasses.
>> Just name and address if you don't mind. Uh, my name is Dale Carroll. I live at 72. >> Um, and so I just sent um a request for the finance committee support to accept both
King Phillip and Charlotte A as public ways. And I respectfully ask for your support because I've lived in the town for more than 50 years and I've p personally witnessed the history of these roads. Uh during that time, the
town has treated them as part of the community's infrastructure, improving them and paving them at least three different times during my lifetime. Um with these roads, while these roads may have not been formally accepted, the town has repeatedly invested public
resources to maintain and improve them for decades. The town also accepted the first several hundred feet of both roads many years ago. At that time, all of the mailboxes were located at the end of the accepted
portion and the United States Postal Service later agreed to provide mail delivery directly to each home if the town um agreed to maintain the roads and the town did so and residents have received mail at their individual
addresses for more than 40 years. So, this long-standing arrangement demonstrates that both the town and the postal service have recognized these roads as functioning neighborhood streets deserving of municipal maintenance.
Every property on these streets is also connected to the town sewer system. When the sewer project was installed, every homeowner was required to pay a sewer betterment assessment exceeding $25,000. And beyond that substantial investment,
each resident was also required to purchase a grinder pump, pay for its installation and connection to the municipal sewer system, and continue to maintain that equipment at their own expense for the lifetime of the system.
It is also important to note that when the town installed sewer infrastructure in Norton Grove, several roads were accepted as public ways without first being improved. Those roads were simply placed on the town warrant and approved
by town meeting. This demonstrates that the town has previously recognized the value of formally accepting roads without requiring costly reconstruction beforehand. We respectfully ask that King Phillip and Charlotte Avenue be afforded the
same fair consideration. The residents of King Phillip and Charlotte A have contributed significantly to the town through their taxes, sewer betterment assessments, and ongoing infrastructure costs. For
decades, they have relied on town services and have every expectation that the roads serving their homes should receive the same recognition and protection as other public streets in Norton. Accepting these roads as public ways is
not about creating a new obligation. It is about formally recognizing the reality that has existed for decades. The town has maintained these roads, provided municipal sewer service, supported individual mail delivery, and
treated these roads as integral parts of our community for generations. I respectfully ask that you consider this long history, the substantial financial investments made by the residents and the precedent established by the town in in accepting other roads
under similar circumstances. Your support would acknowledge decades of municipal involvement and pro provide a fair, practicable practical and long overdue resolution for the families who live on King Phillip and Charlotte
Avenue. I respectfully ask that you recommend approval of this article so that town meeting can finally resolve an issue that has remained unfinished for decades and ensure that all Norton residents are treated fairly and
consistently. Thank you for your time, your thoughtful consideration, and your continued service to the residents of Norton. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Any >> I just have I have one. Why Why hasn't this been accepted?
>> Do you want me to go first and >> I I just I don't know. I don't know. >> I mean, I I I just got here a year ago, but from what I know, I've looked at the legal opinions. Um we did accept, as was mentioned, the first 600 ft that
happened in um what 2000 was it? Um I've looked through all the documents um for some reason, I guess, and I've driven along it. That's the part where it's it's straight. After that, it it kind of curves around. And I I guess the I mean
the obvious answer is money. Uh >> you know, preliminary estimates are a million or two. >> A million or two for >> to pave the entire length. and to engineer and to uh storm water drainage
and takings. You gota you gota take four feet of each or x feet from the center line and actually you know the maps I'm looking at there's actually some houses that would be built where the road would be. Is there a way >> you'd have to take people's houses >> to
>> But I mean >> flip up the map. >> That's the map that I've seen. it I mean well is there a way for us to flip up the map >> to >> so King Phillip has been with respect
has been at this and the um I want to say the conservation commission said that they as long as they repaved the roads and didn't change the elevation that they could repave them as is. And that's really what the town's people
are looking for. They're looking for these roads to be accepted and I encourage you to drive down. It is terrible. If you look on Norton neighbors, I have posted videos and the town has paved them. So other thing other people have said there has been an
association. There has never been an association. We have never paid homeowner fees. We have never been an association. And so the the only reason there was a a loose term of an association was to get the weed eater for the lake.
>> Yep. So, we are really really just trying to advocate to shoot our shot because it has been a long I've I've lived in town my entire pretty much my entire entire
life educated through the schools and this is something that really needs to happen. >> So, at the moment is all of King Phillip paved or no?
No, just the first 600 feet. >> It is Charlotte and King. >> It's just the um >> I'll stand here. >> Sorry. I don't I don't like public speaking. >> Neither do I.
>> When When was it when was it? Was it paved when the sewer went in or was it paved? >> It was paved prior to that. So, they were both dirt roads at one point. And I personally I live on Charlotte and Charlotte was paved first with like tar and sand multiple times
and then it was paved paved and then when the sewer project came in they they just dug down the middle and installed you know we don't have the same sewer system that others do. We have a I think
it's a pressurized system. So, so that's when it was paved after they installed the sewer. >> It was paved prior to that. >> It was paved prior to that. >> That's the most recent time. >> The most recent time was the sewer was when the sewer project was and which I
don't understand why at that point they didn't accept the roads when >> So, Mr. Chair, >> yeah, the town does have an active >> on the it was on the warrant to accept 1600 ft and someone struck that out and wrote 600. I I this was before I knew I
needed to pay attention. >> So, I'm thinking this is um where the discrepancy is as to whether we have to bring it up to the current codes for us to accept it or whether or not we can pave what's there. And I and I'd like to hear what we did down on Reservoir
Street when we accepted some of those offshoots like Farm Lane and all that where I don't think we've done anything since we've accepted them. I don't even think we've had to repay them yet or anything, but so I'm not sure if the DPW has to get involved with us. >> The DPW they're gonna want to do it,
right? If you ask the residents, you could do it >> on the cheap. >> But so it it when when a town says, "I accept this road." What liability are they accepting by
accepting the road? I I guess is >> we have to plow it. We have to >> But you already plow it. >> You're already plowing it. So there there's got to >> Mr. Chair, >> there may be or may not be I believe there are brand new subdivisions that we
have not accepted that um have private plowing. I think there's one off of Newland Street and stuff that uh um they put dead hydrants in because they wouldn't allow them to connect to the to the public water mans because of water issues. So they have hydrants fire hydrant in my yard. >> Yeah. But, you know, but um so I think
there's actually new subdivisions that we don't have officially accepted. Uh I don't think it's a >> I mean, so for for new developments, obviously we would say you need to build it up to town standards if we're going to accept it. Here's the rub. Every town
has one of these. I you know, for Yeah, there's I I'm trying to think of the name of the road in another town, but it it this happens everywhere. There's always a neighborhood that really wants and it's always a street by a lake, too. >> Um, it's a beautiful view. They start
out as summer cottages and then they become year round >> and and then it's does the majority of the town meeting want to spend funds on a neighborhood road and that will be the question.
>> So, a couple questions. Um, um, legally we do not have to bring this up to code then. Is that the correct? You're just saying that's a DPW request as opposed to a legal >> legally you need an engineering study a survey to define the meats and bounds otherwise you can't say it's a public way unless you can unless the engineer
can come in and and write down >> okay but you don't need you don't need to take people's houses and and and um put bring it wide widen the road or anything like that. When we bring in the DPW, when we do this, they're going to show a map and it's going to show the road going through a couple houses.
Whether that's >> whether there's an engineer report that rebuts that, I guess, would be on the proponents of the measure to >> I bring that professional. >> I I would assume it's not going to go through the house. >> It's just like a corner. It's like,
>> but it may take the majority of the yard for some reason, >> right? And then we'd have to pay takings. We can't just take people's property without giving them the fair value. But I guess that's that's what I'm asking and would be a great topic
for the third is more detail as to what is or is not allowed by accepting a road that has been in existence for a
bazillion years. >> Yeah. >> So >> we need an engineering plan. We need uh to define the the bounds and then whose houses whose streets are we going to take? It's it requires a twothirds town meeting vote because it involves money.
>> Well, that that's why the mass >> if it was just if it was just adopting a road that was up to standard, it would just be a majority vote. But I'm trying to figure what they did down off the reservoir previously where they've established precedents where they've accepted roads and just let them sit
>> and they and they really are almost dirt roads mark you know >> you go to the you know those >> like farm lane I think very petite road you know near the actual at the reservoir and there's a there's a I
think it's on one of our maps you know this is a great kayaking place it's a dirt, >> you know. So, >> I mean, so that'd be a judgment call unless we have the >> you get the Evergreen Beach, you've got to >> I mean, so it sounds like everyone agrees we're not going to do it up to
Taj Mahal standards, but I mean, my director is going to tell me I can't vouch for the safety of this road. They want 2 in of asphalt and I want to do a curb to curb and have it last 10 to 20 years. And if we just put two inches of asphalt, it's going to last two to five years and we're going to have to come
back and redo it every two to five years. And I mean I want to and I'll I'll ultimately do what town meeting wants to do, >> but uh you know Reservoir Street does not get paid every uh paved every two to five
years. So, you know, their streets aren't going to, you know, that that I don't think that's a correct answer, which is why I'm asking what is and what isn't the liability.
If we were to take accept not take accept these roads in the condition that they're in based on past precedent of other places in this town.
>> I mean the professional opinion you're going to get is to build it up to standard which is going to be the scary price tag. >> Um I live in the neighborhood. I'm a new resident Norton about six years. The areas that are accepted roads do not
comply in any way either. They're not the proper width. They do not have sidewalks. They do not have sewer. They have pub sewer, but they don't have storm system. So, don't how did they qualify if these now must qualify?
That that's my question. >> I mean, so here it's it's it's narrow with I mean, it's it's a lake a lake road. It's it doesn't have the the the shoulders that other roads have. So, there's differences in the runoff and the water would naturally go to other places. I'm not an engineer, but that
that's why it does require an engineer's sign off, >> but but go down Reservoir Street. >> There's many non-conforming streets. Yeah. And if they're non-conforming, how do these houses have frontage? >> Which is a whole other problem for us
when we go to the building department. I'm sure there's going to be more of you. >> I'm sure we're going to hear more about this between now and town meeting. >> Well, again, that >> this is the school roof question for the for the fall. >> Um, but >> thank you.
>> Thank you. But that's why, you know, >> maybe the third that's a good topic to have a little bit more info on. >> Exactly. the DPW guy maybe come here and say, "Yes, we could accept it as is, period, or we need to spend $10 million."
>> Well, DPW guy is going to give again a a certain opinion. I'm looking for what what is legal. What is minimally legal? >> I we we have a legal opinion. >> I I I guess. Yeah.
>> Minimally legal. bad. >> It's this >> you you don't >> up every year around around the the time after plowing and when the roads get sorted out >> every year it percolates. >> Yeah. >> So we have a legal opinion. Happy to
circulate that. >> Mark Sweeney 14 LAN. Um I drove down there today. You've got several potholes right now today, months after the last two blizzards we've had that are deep, two inches deep, something like that.
The residents have to go through there, you know, 5 miles an hour, especially when it's you've had a storm, you've had some um snow melt, that type of thing. They've huge puddles. So, you I think everybody should go down there and take a look, you know, on King Phillip and
Charlotte. off of Charlotte this maplewood and river that again are just dirt roads were not as you know you know but Carl Jacobs was the um town super highway supervisor at the time for
whatever reason and nobody knows he stopped it at 700 ft coming in off of King Phillip comes in off of Bay Road so it stops right there and I've got pictures you can see that once it stops the road just deteriorates from there so I think the the residents are just
looking for some type of a milling, that type of thing. Plane it, mill it, whatever you want to call it, and then pave the rest of it all the way down to the uh to the to the wells, wells number four, what is it, five and six. So, you need access down there. You need fire
access, police access, that type of thing. And it's just again, it's 5 miles an hour. The roads are in horrible condition even now after they supposedly fixed it up after our two blizzards. So, they're just looking for just to mill it, plan it, however you want to call
it, and just repave it. Uh, but again, this is the planning. I mean, the finance committee is just looking on the article as far as how much it costs or the the legality of it. You're going above and beyond that type of thing. You're just looking just to look at the
merits of the article itself. And I think the the article was well written uh as it is standing right now. So that's you can everyone can talk about you know what it's going to cost down the road and then it's up to M is it chicka or chica I don't know how do you say
>> what is it >> chica he can he again it's chapter 90 money he he he's got $800,000 this year to fix southwester and whatever else. So it's not an overnight fix. It's down the road type of thing. It's not going to be
fixed tomorrow if you approve it in you know or in no October. in November right after the uh fall meeting. It's going to be fiscal 2028, that type of thing when we get our chapter 90 money and put it at the top of the list. It's all up to Mr. Chica, whatever he wants to do.
Again, he's working on South Worester right now his decision there. So, it's just, you know, give him a chance, have him the residents, have him look forward to something, which would be, you know, we're going to plan it and repave it. It's it's horrible right now. And again, I suggest everybody take just take a
ride there. It's right off of Bay Road, right by the new gas station there on the Taton line. And if you if you go more than 10 miles an hour, you're going to be throwing your wheels out of alignment. >> How how many miles or half mile? How
long is this road? >> Uh 4,000 ft, which would be less than a mile. I guess it's the first 700 ft is in very good shape. Does you know? And again, it's >> okay. I'm talking I'm sorry. you I always I keep I'm talking about King Phillip. There's Charlotte's on the
other side of the of the lake. So we're on the north and south side of Lake Winn. I'm talking I'm mostly talking >> So there's two separate warrant articles then. >> They did them together. >> Oh >> yeah. >> Okay. So I I have two petitions that
were submitted then. >> Okay. >> Yeah. It's written >> Okay. >> Um it's the first to answer your question. the first 700 ft >> is paved >> was paved and has been improved. Doesn't have it's thin, doesn't have um
sidewalks on either side. So is it within you know as you were asking it you know how the legality of it or or the the uh >> my my my point is if we've if we've accepted others streets
>> you have >> but may maybe this is the def the difference. We've accepted streets that already existed in a paved sense and now we're ignoring them. I don't know. Versus
>> this sounds like we you want to accept it and then do work to it. That's too that's two different that's two different >> again you're just looking for the for the acceptance. But yeah, it would be the you know once you get you can I've got a picture right here. You can see the difference once you leave the first
700 feet it just goes downhill right away. Right. Right at Samosa or Samuset, however you want to. I'm again I'm talking King Phillip. >> Mark, just want to correct you though. Our job isn't just to look at the narrowness of the article, is to look at what the potential future costs are as well. So, we do have to look at the big
picture, >> right? >> Um Okay. Um there are roads like River Road that floods over even on a another big storm even. Is it better now? Has it been >> dam? >> So, they get a lower now a little bit.
But again, that's strictly a dirt road, I think, with four houses on it >> that some of them were built on stilts because FEMA got involved years ago when they flooded out and made them go up even, you know, one of those deals and stuff. So, there were a lot of conservation potential issues and stuff.
So, again, we we have to look at the big picture as well, Mark, not just an >> fair enough. Yeah, those Maplewood and River off of Charlotte are just >> dirt roads, >> that type of thing. So, >> thank you. Thank you.
>> Okay, I guess >> that's that's the only submissions so far. Another three or four weeks. Three or four weeks. >> 20 something month. >> Another month or so. >> Y
um anything else? No. I will entertain >> motion to adjurnn. >> I will entertain a motion to adjourn.
>> We have a motion and a second. All in favor? >> Anyone opposed?