all right it is 7 o'clock i will call the Apollo 14 committee to order um present we have Bill Paul Bonnie Trace Paula Zach Gavin and looks like we have Brandon and Steve online um if we can can we um I think
the chair of the search committee wanted to talk to us about the reserve fund um transfer for that so can we wait until she arrives to drive us yep something else first yeah why don't we go to Elm Street where we have the
engineer here i don't know if you know much about this project but it's all thank you so I'm Steve Peterson with Western Samson Engineers um and as Mike said or as we've alluded to um I'm sure
you're quite familiar with with this project and where it's been so we are here tonight about the scaledown version that we had talked about before and that is the article that is being presented for the special so I just have
a few slides just to remind you of what the um the revised version is and basically what it is um is taking out all the gravity sewer uh and the pump station um that was on Elm Street in Miller Terrace
so the the the scale down project is 4500 ft of water made improvements on Elm Street basically you know the entire length of it from reservoir to main street um and then 2900 ft of force main
4-in force man um dedicated for the property at 47 Elm Street um running um from where that uh property is uh down Elm Street across Main Street and down to uh Filillmore Drive intersection of Filillmore and Pine Street connecting
into the existing force main that comes from the uh pump station that it's at Eden College the town center pump station um so again it includes no um gravity sewer no municipal pump station and no residential connections um to the
force to the um the budgeted cost of this project uh is 6 million um and here's kind of a breakdown um just from the anticipated construction costs uh it breaks down you know it the project
before with all the gravity sewer uh and the pump station um the sewer was like 75% of the cost um so that was a significant chunk of the cost of the project so under this revived version uh it's 2.7 million estimated and 1.3
million estimated for the 2.7 water 1.3 million for the sewer uh that's just the construction um so it's about 60 70% um water work in ter if you break down the uh the anticipated cost and then when
you look at the overall cost um we're estimating between 5.5 million and 6 million that's why we're asking for 6 million uh includes some so we have to do some quick redesign and put back up to bid uh and get a contractor and then
need to include a construction contingency on that number and then public safety and then services uh during construction oversight of the of the project when we look at the 6 million you know the big question is always how are we covering that cost so now the
formula is um we still have the uh the grant so the $3.5 million grant um as I said the majority of the work um is actually for the water um but we are leveraging so the grant is for the
utility infrastructure improvements both the water and sewer to be split however we were heavily leveraging it before on the sewer piece because it was the more expensive piece and that was how we could keep the betterments down more on that project so
if it will be a betterment assessment and it is only to the you know we can only assess a betterment to the property that is bettered by the sewer which is 47 L And under this scenario we're estimating that assessment at about 1.5
million under the same scenarios that we were talking about before when we were talking about putting the heaviest of the betterment assessment on that that property at 47 um so they're still being assessed
question and we can go yep yeah so the 4 million estimate the other one and a half to 2 million is engineering and it's a construction contingency there are some unknowns on these costs and then secondly the one.5 million for the betterment if the project come in a half
a million dollars less would that come off of the town side how would that probably off of both it it'll be balanced based on what the final costs are and the percent of the water versus sewer costs if that makes sense so under that
scenario then the savings any savings would go heavily towards the benefit rather than the town side be cheaper yeah okay cuz if $3.5 million is more of a town grant so I would almost think that the better the better
should be the accessory that the construction guy knows is going to pay one half million dollars to do his his thing you know but just my opinion on that well love the project being scaled down because I think it will fly so just a comment on that it was a
mass works grant so the reason we got the grant was because of economic development not right i mean we don't get the grant without 47 that's the whole reason we have it right
is to make that market yes s couple questions what was the betterment on that property uh when you the original plan when you were doing the whole street so we it was between um I think we had it at 1.7 was
our estimate okay and what's going to be really don't mike yes mhm and what's going to be the carry cost on that until the place is developed um I had that before um I can't tell you do you remember i don't
remember what it was before did we have this bid be before we did we had a bid okay so so everybody's mo everybody's favorite topic now tariffs
where are like the pipes and stuff made i mean they make they're mostly in the US out of our material out of foreign materials are we expecting this bid to go up even though it's a smaller project um so that's why we have
we do have a contingency on it because yes it might go up okay based on the time because we do have to go back out thank you it all depends what day of the week it is i know
okay mike what's the back taxes roughly uh roughly 500,000 a little between four and five i don't know but I love the person who's on
so any developer come in is already $2 million in the hole before they shuffle to it madam Chair um the last time this was presented
um the developer was supposedly having a meeting or something within like days or something do we have any more information as to their level of commitment i mean I know that
they they're scheduled to meet about their financing in June right i mean and this we had this whole discussion about that in the they can't get the financing utility infrastructure isn't imminent but they don't you know they can't prove
to the funding places that they have the infrastructure my understanding is with with this vote they're in place to get their financing i can't speak anymore
okay but thank you she talked a lot and you know person the spokesperson for the project um about how much how committed they are and how much they have already sunk into it and how many years they've been at it and they are they are clearly
interested in moving forward okay i think I can hear you on Zoom could everyone mute please we only had two more slides and this was this is the big one so as far as schedule if we we would go forward if we get the
authorization with getting design wrapped up in our bid this summer um and we need to wrap construction up hopefully by the end of May in 2026 and a lot of the same issues as far as life benefits down the biggest issue
being this truly is our last chance at that at that credit it will expire unless if we don't stop if you're going to build this project the grants are big that's questions
is the actual excavation less because of the pressure man or because you got the water man going in as well pretty much it is less the the pressure I mean between both the water man and the pressure sewer are shallower than what a gravity sewer is gravity sewer can't come up and down with the contours of
the road it has to continue so that was the deeper that's why it was a more significant piece of the cost right next to wildly water and sore is here um they also have another article uh for
the water treatment facility and they budget now that the indirects are in so if you could uh talk on both those um article 85 right above yeah right above those
Which do you want to do first frank I can put the budget up fy next year's budget 26 [Music] and first is [Music] sore six and seven
um water is article six and the soore enterprise budget is article 7 so in the sore enterprise budget there's a slight decrease in the salary line end yeah we had an extra position obviously that was being funded
previously we are keeping the position but we are not funding that position currently right you got to get close didn't hear that we had a position that was in there that was funded previously we are not funding that position
but we are keeping that position in the budget and then the um interfont transfer is um $168,331 and there there's a slight um decrease
in expenses but none of us know what's going to happen as far as tariffs we don't make a lot of stuff in this country anymore so we don't know what's going to happen with that and then
Madam Chair so you're keeping the the position in but you're not funding it correct because you don't have a body what if you get a body we're not We're not looking for one right now we
have staff to cover everything that we have going on if the chemistry project went through in full with adding a new pump station there was a good possibility that that's would have had to be filled just so we had the extra staff uh so this gives us the opportunity to leverage a
budget pull that pull that person out so that we're not funding a position that's not filled okay but you have to come back somehow to add the sal exactly yeah thank you sure
budget okay and the water budget the salaries are $1,293,72 and um the interf fund transfer is 590,915 and then expenses um $1,343,000 and then debt and interest
1,848,86 $684 the biggest increase you guys are going to see here is in the road road repair asphalt paving sand and gravel we've done unfortunately quite a few excavations over the past winter and uh we actually stretched that budget pretty
far don't anticipate them that uh we may actually have a real winter around here one of these times we want to make sure we have enough there to fix the ring near them that's the one highlighted frank I know that you tip frank I know that you um also assist the highway in
the following south line for that there is not a time or anything like that is that just part of it if it happens during normal working hours that comes through but if we have staff available vehicles available we'll put them on the roads um as well as keeping our
facilities open if it happens after hours then it comes out of the highway budget and kudos for doing that because he's having trouble getting contracts it is difficult to uh to get people to sign up for something that you you really have no control over and people set aside a
day or weekend or something and change their plans and whether it happens or not that's all about control or controlling any other questions on the water what's that um
You are amending your FY by 25 the total number is going to stay the same we're advocating monies specific line item to be extended the shortterm no they don't have that what was going to be presented tonight
um was an amendment to the FY25 water budget um we have uh a payment that's due and a short-term interest that's due for borrowing uh this is for two projects that are going
to be borrowed in June um well the money is going to be ready in June sorry uh the regard holding money is going to be available for us in June so this was the tank airator we went back to town meeting asked for additional funds for that um and additional funds um correct
me uh full borrowing on the remaining funds for the wealth project so this was to be funded and you've heard me probably speak about it numerous times auction plus money um it has yet to make it into any account that uh is able to
be drawn down from so as with any other article we have to fund the project in its entirety if we happen to have that money become available within the short term borrowing process we can pay back that borrowing if the town or the water department decides that they have no
longer an option to stay shortterm and it was long-term now we don't have the option to pay that down so having the preparation of town meeting was first step we've held on I think as long as we possibly can for waiting for those funds to be available in some way
shape or form so now moving we've asked the the town to go ahead and borrow the remaining uh budget that would come up to a total of 900,000 for four so a combination of 475,000 and 900,000 for the tankeration system and
four replacement comes up to a total of 1,89570 um the first payment that will be due on that is 13,87598 so we are asking for appropriation to transfer
um 10,65 from specific item to the shortterm borrowing without pay [Music] so it won't change the log number but the water budget directly
25 from confident that it's not going to exceed from other area so it's just a reallocation of the funds coming out yeah anybody have any questions while I just want to mention we do we do seem to have it in the pack packet um It's in
it's in the big book yeah I was saying it's also in this year what about That is cool that's i'm going
that question so can I just go over that with uh Frank so what you're talking about is transferring $10,65 from charges and expenditures to debt and interest correct
madam Chair yes make a motion to transfer the sum of $10,65 from the charges and expenditures account 061-450-570-5244-00-0000 to the debt interest on LTD count 061-450-594-5925-00
She was right there i knew it yes yes yes finding it slow except for me must be you might be me all right go to all okay whoever's on Zoom can we mute
please yes thank you Steve zach was yes right yes okay Gavin yes and now Steve can you unmute to vote yes again
and Brandon yes and actually yes so 10 and that's article four on the special all right article seven I mean article eight is the water treatment
facility and well infrastructure there's additional bar that was put through for basically upgrades to the water treatment facility even though it is this 5 years young there's already some maintenance that has taken place and additional maintenance that is going to continue to take place um some of
that is actually rebetting the uh green standard filters and unfortunately we have one filter right now that is down if you put it apart have to do some work inside the green sand is one of those items that's sitting out on the harbor somewhere that they weren't allowed to
come in because of that word that we want to talk about so until that is released um we're at the mercy so we're operating on five filters right now um there is a potential we may actually uh take one other filter offline to do some maintenance on that and basically
transfer the meat if that's in that filter over there so still we were operating at five until that being sand becomes available to us that's only part of the work that needs to be done there there's some other uh pumps motors and uh maintenance on shafts and column pipes that needs to be done so this is a
start this isn't going to be the full number this is just a step in the right direction uh to get us into a maintenance schedule for that facility what article is that Mike um article 8 and that's um seeking to
borrow $175,000 for this work frank I don't know where it sits in are we doing anything with the PAS and we've talked about that a little bit we have a lot coming down in the next uh two to three weeks if you guys want
to start hearing all working with the engineers working with Mass P for a couple of different projects over a range of different items um PAS isn't the only one so we won't get into that because it's a discussion but I would say a multitude of changes will be
coming forward um required by DP and they do have some deadlines that are put on there so we can work with the engineers all doable in our existing plant build that easy right that facility uh was built for one specific purpose it does it well um anything else that was
found after that it's not designed for that so there's going to be some changes that required there and possibly a few other well sources that we have that aren't f to bring up that definitely some changes coming probably have a lot more
sight m yes sir I know there probably some in the road you re if we're not to your department but to all departments if this is a maintenance item why is it maintenance in your regular budgeting you know the plant needs maintenance
every year five year cycles Why wouldn't we put these numbers in your budget as a yearly maintenance line item expenses instead of two separate items these are for items that have come up unexpectedly okay moving forward we'll work into a maintenance
schedule some this was was unexpected some of the deterioration that we found on one of our backwash pumps is far more advanced than we ever expected it would be for 5 years so this money gets us moving forward gets us into the start of that maintenance process where we're going to have one brand new pump call on
the motor um we can analyze the other existing pumps and and see the condition of them and try and determine you know if we have to do a widespread replacement on them which we're hoping that's not going to be the case because that put us right back into the same timeline that we have now um or if it was just a fluke with inferior materials
on this one pump but this is a step in the right direction to get us moving forward and then we'll see that going to the regular maintenance budget items thank you anyone else question on that madam Chair just to go on you know further with that
just add um these are big ticket items are there warranties of any length for this type of stuff or are
we on our small windows of warranty that we there's manufacturer warranties for defects but not for wear so what you saw at five years is still wear and not perhaps a
defect if other similar things are in way better shape basically that's what we're hoping believe it or not uh we spoke to the pump manufacturer we spoke to other um entities that pumps in similar operations um each of them have
basically you know raised the eyebrows just like we did and what's that what why is that happening um so following their expertise and their needed schedules we're two to three years prior to where we should be so we're focusing on getting that one pump and and column
pipe back in we're going to use this funds to pull the second one that we have there the only two back wash pump for the filters and that will determine the cost of action as we move forward thank you
and check yes i'll also um point out that uh even when items are under warranty we just had a sewer pump go in that's under warranty and like a car they prorate everything so basically we're getting 20% of the pump that really should be bulletproof they're
like "Oh yeah it's under warranty." And then they're like "Well I don't." So we deal with that also any other questions madam Chair I I make a motion to see if the town will vote to approve and
appropriate and transfer from available funds and I'll borrow a sum of 175,000 for the purposes listed in article 8 special second motion second yes paul yes yes
yes zack yes yes steve yes brandon yes yes 10 okay did you want to vote on article nine on the special Elm Street anybody have any questions on
that session madam Chair I I recommend um I make a motion that we approve article 9 to see if the final vote to raise and appropriate and or appropriate and or transfer from available funds and borrow the amount of $6 million for the purposes of
instructor listed by instruction second motion a second yes paul yes yes yes paul yes zack yes
yes brandon yes and I thought Paul was going to read the whole thing we almost got We almost got a smile almost almost
boost our ratings is Dina back on mike you did not vote on an article five [Music] um did I give you the wrong number four what was he was that water or so a
man water enterprise so enterprise which right um so is Dina did you want I lost her
step off okay all right do we want to move on to uh Paul DJ Jeppi and two articles okay you have something to present or do you just want to I think I need to do this
presentation i haven't to present since you've already gone through the public hearing but I'm here to answer any questions just to just to um clarify you did vote to uh put the u and the um yes properties on
yes it was on that particular one it was 6 to1 vote for that but then then the board uh adopted or voted unanimously to recommend the warrant okay this one
special number might have it memorized article 17 right let me say one thing while you look at um just in your packet you'll see there's a letter from the state we received a grant for $109,000 to start our digit digitization
process and the last paragraph subject to approval of MBTA zoning we need to start that project quick but yeah again the state is continuously adding to the list although
we did hear that that fire safety grant now is not subject to it um but now this community compact it grant is subject to it so it it keeps it keeps evolving the fire safety grant comes with tax on your
cigarettes so it's scarcely funded but you'll recall that that word came out a few months ago that it was subject to it and then the state changed its mind questions on this on the whole shore i have a few things to say i think I
didn't think of I guess my question and I you know I said I came to the hearing um I watched some of it online and the fundamental question is um what do we want this town to look
like i mean you have you know I asked Paul earlier today what they had for the projects finally you currently have three approved 40s that still yet to be built i believe it's Turtle Crossing on New England Strawberry Fields on South Wora and Bay
Road Heights that have been out there for a while they were all expired is there is there none of them are coming back they're still on the books i didn't know there was a statue yeah they if they they um they have an expiration date on Strawberry Fields is now a
different project it's not a 40B but it does have an affordable component but that was approved 5 years ago and updated a few times yeah I didn't know if there was a statute of limitations on the 40Bs but with that said I mean you talk just approved saw for Elm Street
150 units you have Wine Street that who knows the the planning board hasn't approved these yet but they're out there uh they're looking about 350 units on uh where the road was up on North Washington
Street and South Worester Street Dean Street so what do you want this community to look like i mean did people really come here to make it look like Brockton with apartments all over the place i mean when is enough enough and the grants are one thing but that's a very minor issue compared to the overall
picture of what you want this community to be and that's a personal decision for everybody i personally didn't come here by coming here to be out of the city not to be in the city and we just follow this building all over the place with the states for our hands all over making sign deals with Middle and
other places and yeah we we talked a lot about the streets that I was reading on the summer just over the weekend that they put an override on the books with the the amount of they have more industrial commercial space than any community
around here and look how many apartments they do and now they're they're looking for two half million dollars more in the back space so for me we've heard a lot but I guess everybody decides what they what they want what they TF what they
want us to look like for the long term so Zach I would just again say that we're we're the finance committee right and I think that we need to be our goal here is to think about the financial impact to the town um in particular if we get sued if we don't
have grants um you know those are that's more of our party as opposed to personal viewpoint on housing that's and I don't really see that as the finance committee's per I would disagree with that's not
what's we vote on zoning articles we vote on all kinds of things that are not financial that's not what's in the charter it's not just financial we vote on everything we're the sounding board for the town that's how I look at this committee yes we have a finance committee but we vote on everything um
so we do but yes so I should say yes and no you're talking about I mean we voted this stuff here that are totally irrelevant to finances then we vote on right and I think there you know if it's not a financial impact historically this board has voted to support the planning
board's decision on not financial aris um and so you know we weigh in on everything because that's in the charter we weigh in on things because there might be a financial component to it that we are we might have some insight in but I think
again historically every as long as I have an optimist committee they've been deferring to planning more on decisions of zoning and things that are not financial madam Chair yes I agree with Zach i
think these go hand in hand the town residents look to us for our recommendations on all of these uh events financial or not i think this one has a financial implication down the road so I think it is important to think about the impact financially
well I guess I I agree s there is a financial impact but the impact is a negative one if we don't pass this that's that's how I'm viewing this right if we don't pass it then as Gail said last week we um we potentially are in a legal battle with the state we
potentially lose grant funding um so there is a financial negative advantage financial impact if we don't have as well chair can I just add to that too this is a good conversation but as you know there were three and actually now four studies i didn't realize I had
Eastston's fiscal impact study they looked at these things we we didn't commission it but there were three or four towns including Milton bit Mansfield Eastston and they're finding a net positive at on fiscal not not huge
but still a positive and impacts to schools are again the narrative is they that multif family creates a big problem they don't and the same thing is true with fiscal we we hear a narrative that it's going to blow out of our budget but they don't it actually is a net positive
and I I think your um East Main example was a really good one too that to me had really impacted something here in town that that's a net positive for us sure couple things Paul um I was surprised the 5,000 foot lot size i know the gym
shadow was really ups and being a factor so I wasn't at the hearing so I won't get into that but uh I was pleased to see the three story height right it it's an attempt to try to create smaller multif family because people need to
understand when we're talking about multif family we're talking about three units and up so a triplex is multif family and that's what the board was really trying to promote and not the 100 unit it could happen but they're still trying to promote small scale and if you look at those sites at Norton Glenn and
Mansfield B they're small lots especially on Mansfield bath so you might be able to get one of their squads you might get two or three more units there if they redeveloped it social media is all the buzz with the affordable housing there is no affordable housing component to this
correct uh other than if you have more than 10 units then 10% requirement regardless okay y um and then Middleboro was able to circumvent it by doing their own inhouse zoning of some sort is that correct um I don't know as much but they
have a different zoning district there called a 40R zoning district a smart growth zoning district what I read in the paper was they're going to now look at expanding that because it's right around their track their commuter rail station and um they're going to look to
try to expand it and comply that way m yes sir with all due respect to all I mean they all showed up with these studies but let's look at the facts how many overrides is Eastern how many overrides mansfield's passing override where they they put it on ballot so the
facts just I mean we had that guy from chap great but he's a lobbyist if he said anything less than what he said the other day he would be it would be his last day on the job he's here to push an agenda his agenda is build housing what's he what do you think he was going to come here and say no it's
going to cost you money that's not his job he's a lobbyist and all these studies are done by lobbyists look at the facts look at the surrounding communities they're all in fiscal trouble my kids out of school in a couple of years i hate the parents of
the younger generation when we stack this place up because you mark my words today vote however you want however you feel but you watch 5 10 years down the road what happens to this community it's happened everywhere else those are the
facts the lobbyists have an agenda madam Chair yes Brandon go ahead thank you um one thing I just want to bring up as well uh Paul I know you had mentioned it was a net positive uh slightly i when
I looked at them I think one was like 10 and something thousand for one of the towns if you get one special needs student that blows that out of the water so I I I think it you know you shouldn't go saying "Oh it's a net positive." It's
a net positive you like I said you have one student that has special needs it blows that out of the water well Brandon I know that Zach brought it up last time too and I as I was thinking about that afterwards I mean that could happen anytime right that is nothing
that's completely so I mean that you know so the more residents the more probability isn't that correct i think any place anytime so it's not really I don't think that's necessarily a big argument i think these these studies that were done were not they who
who was the one they were independent studies card it wasn't the gentleman who was here us no they were done by the town and I would say that if they were if we had done one my goal would be what are the facts I don't I don't want an outcome a specific one if a if an outcome is it's negative we need to know
that we want to make a decision based on that and I have a hard time believing that those towns would authorize something knowing that it was wrong they're not it's not chapa or anybody else chap is an advocacy that's why we brought up here because they're
experts on housing i think you want to follow I comment on something i guess really quick uh I just wanted to point out on the pistol studies as far as I read them you know they're all talking about a pertinent um estimation which
was looking at you know the current costs of the town so as far as the probability of more expensive students coming to town I think that was already reflected in the fact that you know the existing numbers also reflect that probability and so extrapolating from
there should incorporate that uh the way I did those summaries and those studies i have a quick question i think it would be football how many units total currently make up the Glenn in the Mansfield app so 150 units in the Glenn
um they're all affordable it's section 8 housing so it's all deeply affordable um I have to look to see we have the number the unit count uh currently but I can get back to you i can get it pretty quickly i'm just curious as to like how many more units this could
potentially create because right now I mean I know that Zach is just making reference to like not wanting to have a town full of apartments but currently on these properties there are apartments yes um so I just I was just wondering how many more I mean I know where it was
750 right is the number well that's a that's a that's a made up that's a made up that's made up yeah that's and it's and even the modeling that you saw with the presentation we did it's just take assuming every square inch of that lot gets built it's not true that's not
that's not accurate information we don't know exactly but it's a lot less than what that model shows because there were wetlands there were lot sizes and all sorts of things that subtract out um and that's why I think one good thing about these two areas you wouldn't see
substantially more than what's there now they were all people are already built and so a lot has to happen for new things to happen in those areas i mean there's a small 1acre parcel on Mansfield AB that's it's vacant but the rest of them are built and um other
regulations would still kick in so that's you know it's it's been hugely problematic this 750 that's a state thing it's not real but everyone holds that up as that's how many units are going to get built and it's nothing has
to happen and it's unlikely we would ever see that okay thank you i can uh I think answer that i also I have your presentation from our couple weeks ago um so Northern Glenn's got 150 units according to this 343 is what the model says potentially
obviously Paul said that's the model uh so that's 193 net new that's in the Glenn and then at Mansfield A we got 168 existing 41 in the model so that's 313 so that's like 510ish uh
which is 2/3 of the 750 number right correct chair yes sir plus nobody keeps in mind the dozens of other projects that are out there some that are in construction some that are still before the planning board you add
it all together you probably got a couple thousand units roughly between all the projects that are out there i know this is one one aspect of it but you got to see what else is out there i mean just the other day somebody told me 350 units on North Washington Street
whether it passes or not whether it gets through the plant I don't know but there's a bunch of these projects all over the place so add it all up i think you know people are concerned about grants and the financial aspect of it i think that's peanuts i think the state's
going to settle just like they did with it'll bur other communities i think it's you know the attack by my personal view the bigger picture is it's a net negative for this community
um and that's all I'll say thanks yeah one more thing I'll tell you about Hansfield D is the only place in industrial you have left that place for my my view and you got sewer that should be shops that should be maybe you know
restaurants I mean you once you take that up and build that up where else do you go from here in regards to any kind of commercial development in my view I think that and particularly Mansfield a I would have liked to see the the tweet
building down there which is just on abandoned property i would have liked to see Elm Street why wouldn't we put it over there you're looking They're looking to put 150 units there anyway with the short project so exactly to that point though it's still going to be zone industrial and if you
own a piece of property there and you're going to develop it you'd probably be better off developing it still as an industrial property rather than putting a a house there already do you see what they get for rents none of these have to be affordable you see right next to McDonald's when they get for rent they're going to stack those up as
amazing it doesn't change the city correct it's still zone commercial so sites most of those sites on man residential the point of building more housing is to lower that it's funny when people against this project say Norton links is so expensive and the the reason
is cuz we have a housing shortage we need 220,000 units by in the next 10 years so talk about a,000 units a drop that's a drop in the bucket there 300 some towns so thousand units I think we're balling away maybe um I also like to say um since I'm blowing
here as far as this community I agree I moved out to this community to be in the woods i used to live in the city before this however I live in a society and you want to talk about community all these people who need houses people my age and younger who want to live in the state or the town where they grew up we talk
about that a lot keeping people around all these people in town who have kids they can't afford to live here because of this problem so I mean I I think the community argument can go either way Zach m yes sir the medium household income last
time I looked in Massachusetts is 99,850 the highest per capita of any state by far into New Jersey and Maryland california is 10th I believe rents aren't going down you couldn't if you filled every single lot in Norton
it's not going to budge to either this is a nationwide issue this is a dot in the hemisphere they're not solving any world's problems yet trust me does anybody else have any questions for Paul
i got a lot more to say than nothing thanks Hi Laura Parker for Allen Drive um just for sake of disclosure I also happen to be a member of the planning board if anybody is unaware of that um I'm not going to reiterate a lot of what's
already been said um to comply or not comply is not the question um it's not your decision it's not planning board's decision um so I'm going to set that aside entirely um but
I do feel that choosing to ignore the fiscal implications simply because one you don't like the state telling us what to do or two you don't want Lord to turn into Brockton [Music]
um isn't really acting in good faith as a a member of Fencom nobody really wants Milton to look like Brockton i'm on the planning board to make sure that we have acceptable
reasonable growth that's in line with the characteristics of this town and comply with the bylaw complying with the bylaw is actually bank um you've all seen the economic impact analyses that the towns have done paul's provided that
he's referenced from unless somebody here is in possession of something that was independently sourced data um that shows Norton with fairs then you're going on basically how you feel um and
or maybe you're listening to you know somebody who has an agenda on Facebook and their only qualification is stay on keyboard um so you know with the advisory committee which the stand needs to focus
on are the far more serious impacts of non-compliance with this bylaw i know you're all aware of the town's financial condition even the cost of fighting it is something we cannot
afford setting aside the cost of non-compliance it could even a fight worth having and it's not because if there's one thing I have learned in my 3 years being on planning it is that the state gets what the state
wants they will literally change the rules to accomplish their goals i have personally witnessed it on numerous occasions for example they reclassified every single fly by night solar company
as a public utility solely because towns were legally able to reject a solar farm plant they said "All right we'll get around it they're now a utility you can't fight it your bylaws don't exist it's a utility." They take precedent
we have no legal ground to deny a special permit to a developer who renegged on commitments made to this town to town meeting and retail tenant no standing there was nothing we could do didn't want to allow
it town council basically came back and said "We have no legal standing here." Ridiculous the courts in the state have never once upheld a planning board's decision to deny a special permit in the history of land board in this state not
one time not ever in addition in a call with the mobile head mobile head select board members last month state auditor Dakio the one who declared this an unfunded mandate clarified what she meant by what
actually qualifies as an unfunded mandate you got a copy of the memo i have an extra sure if anybody needs one here um but it's essentially the direct costs with confine which means planning studies costs related to drafting the
map and the bylaws that's it she fully expects the state will deem that any costs related to the infrastructure or employees that may need to be uh paid to support an increase in the population is an indirect cost meaning it doesn't
constitute an unfunded mandate um so I don't want to say resistance is feudal but it really it not only is it feudal it is cost prohibitive and it is extremely detrimental to the financial
well-being of this town as a reminder we have received $4.5 million in various grants since 2018 that we would then become ineligible for if this doesn't pass mike just mentioned one that is literally in the process of being spent
can't use it until we pass NBTA planning board did what was asked for us of us we went back to the drawing board we listened we chose parcels where the impact would neither be 0% nor 100%
the areas that we chose were the best compromise between both ends of the spectrum of we don't want any new development here versus we need new housing a sensible compromise is what this exercise calls for given the need
for it to pass a town meeting the parcels shown that we chose also happen to be in the two areas that ranked the highest in our public openhouse exercise and they also aligned with goals 2.1 and 2.2 of the master
plan that this town adopted in 2021 specifically creating a range of housing to meet the demands of young families senior population and firsttime home buyers the type of housing that addresses the missing middle so to speak
um and that's exactly how we designed the the zoning in the bylaw so that we could encourage specifically that type of housing not all single family not huge monster multifamilies maybe a few more duplexes
maybe a couple of triplexes a quad here and there we're not asking for the move it is a reasonable compromise what we have put forward we did our job all I'm asking you is to do
yours to set aside your personal feelings uh I would also ask you to take in consideration that you know everything on this page right now is purely a hypothetical we do have applications pending in front of us um
for new housing but everything that we're talking about here purely hypothetical we may end up with absolutely nothing coming out of this and it will all have been you know much to do about nothing um but I just need you to set aside your personal feelings
on the matter and weigh the potential cost of compliance against the actual cost of non-compliance based on the facts that have been provided thank you thank you and thank you so much for all the planning board has done
to a neverending process for all of you it's thankless you know anything about us does anybody else have any questions or comments madam Chair yes Brandon uh could could
uh Paul or Mike just clarify something i keep hearing 4.5 million the town has been given a grants but I thought that included the 3.5 million um for the Elm Street project so I mean technically we haven't been given 4.5 million have
gotten one right well well we've received 10 or 11 grants you're correct though one of them was three and a half million and then the other million plus was nine or 10 other grants so if if this fails at you know town
meeting then we've only gotten a million in grants not four and a half right i'm understanding you Brandon um the money that we have for Elm Street is secured no matter what we do but the next time we need But the next time we apply for Mass Works we would be
told no okay thank you Madam Chair yes sir just to follow up on that um were any of those grants the million that's left fire grants that have been excluded no thank you
i was going to say Madam Chair yes i'd like to make a motion that we endorse article 17 as presented by the planning board second second any further discussion all right so Bill
let's start yes paul I believe the tile speaker should have a chance to vote on it again so I'm going to say yes bonnie yes grace yes paul yes definitely zack no
yes uh Steve no brandon no so that is uh seven yes sorry that is seven yes three no the other article oh diamonds on if you
want to switch to that first don't leave Paul did you want to speak to the um request for um reserve fund transfer for the town meets town manager screening committee you're muted
maybe that can speak to it you want to go that route is that able to join in uh I I think her concern was I believe um the search committee uh met and voted
unanimously to request uh $20,000 um from this uh finance committee in emergency and e not emergency and transfers to the search of a town manager um that's to do background checks to run
ads we don't know what the costs are going to be i mean it was up to that and whatever was not expected to be put back into cash and I think the request came through was $6,000 and I think she had a question on that i think are you
muted excuse me did you want to add to that at all i'm sorry i believe I missed the first part of it zach was just explaining that that the um committee voted for $20,000 um request for the transfer yes i'm
sorry i was out of the room at the moment yes the committee voted as a unanimous that it would be a $20,000 request for a reserve fund transfer that would cover the cost of advertising and um for background checks if we did not
expend that um of course it would go back but this is what the committee voted unanimously i just asked I know where that um where the number came from and where the where did the 20,000 comprised of that
it was comprised of what we thought that we might need uh we were unsure so the recommendation was to go a little bit high if we didn't need it of course it would be returned um we had thought that hopefully we could bring it in probably
within 10 to 15 um the cost of the background checks was unsure we want to be able to do a thorough background check on a possible new town manager and that was what we thought we would need
question why is your request for 6,000 now i Yeah um I don't remember how it got to 6,000 i think I'll say gen I'll say
generally um the discussion I I thought was that is the 20,000 going to be spent by June 30th otherwise it goes away so I wasn't quite sure
I had had a a conversation with Michelle and she had suggested uh 6,000 um I reiterated to her that the committee vote unanimously was for 20,000 um I realize that if we don't spend it it will of course go back our intention is
not to spend that much if at all possible but um that was the unanimous committee vote and that's what I decided to go forward with madam Chair yes sir mike don't don't we
have I I I know you know trying to replace the town manager you is a little higher level but don't we have a standard procedure of looking at people who apply and whatnot for jobs so isn't
part of that already covered in our budget i Well I'll I'll be honest with you i was asked how much we spend on background checks we don't spend anything because we don't do anything we
do a COI is free oh and then um a suri if is free um and then we would check out there's references that people give and then also check out people that should know this person that isn't
listed as a reference um you have the internet so you Google people you check their Facebook profile same thing that if you pay someone they're going to do we don't we don't have the FBI go knock on someone's
door and say you know can we talk to you about your neighbor no we don't do that why don't we pay you i I guess that's what I'm a little lost on yeah b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b m ch for you b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b based on the we met with town council based on
the advice of the attorney and talking to couple of members who've done this a few times like Mr fernandez who's doing four search committees you know they want do a deep deep dive from credit checks to you know background checks you
bring it's the highest level position at the top it's not going to call him yeah do you know Joe oh yeah he's a good guy i mean it's a little bit beyond that so we don't know what it's going to cost could cost $500 i we have no idea um we may have to bring it against we don't
know we may have to get ahead on that if nobody applies we don't know uh again all this whatever's not spent goes back in town June 30th so this is more than just background checks this is really could be a whole bunch of things
if you're looking for head hunters and this and we don't trade those we could get the ads out there i don't know if we've got any uh applications yet we could get nobody then what we could get 100 we're supposed you know per child we got to give three or five screen
candidates to the select board what's it going to cost i don't know if I might at at the last committee meeting we were discussing what might happen um we have posted the ad is it is at at the
um Massachusetts Municipal Association as of this afternoon at 5 when I checked um we don't know how many applications we're going to get if we don't get any we may have to go out with a head hunter situation
we were also discussing what type of background checks we might need um it is for the head administrative officer for our town um someone who has to have impeccable credentials and we thought
that it would be worthwhile to dive a little bit deeper than the normal coroori um that is normally done for municipal employees and we were unsure about how much this would cost um we of course
have 150 days to report back to the select board with 3 to five candidates that will be August 15th or thereabout we realize that this might not be done prior to the uh June 30 close of the fiscal year but we would
like to have the ability to move forward if we can if it goes past July 1 of course we will be back for um a reserve fund transfer to make up for the amount that we you know we would think what we would need but we feel that this will
see us through um the process through June 30th hopefully we will have a candidate by then if not we need to go forward madam Chair yes sir ju just one last question on this and I know it's been a
few years since we last did this search but what did we spend last on uh that I am unsure of Mike do you have a a sum for that i don't you know that
was in 2010 it has been uh 15 years so I assume that the price has of course increased instead of decreased um but we feel that this is a u a good amount to go forward with as I
said it was a unanimous committee vote if we don't need to spend it of course we will that you mentioned there's a member on the committee who's been through a couple of these searches of them recently 2010
oh so he's done it here and he didn't remember how much Paul he's also was the uh administrator for PL correct for all these years administrator does he talk about not spending anything
i mean hopefully most of it goes back it's you know we're going to be a journal in a couple weeks and we want to call you guys back and say we need 500 bucks let's have a meeting chair yes Paul so the the transfer request was for six we have 60 left in
the account with two and a half months to go with any other departments i'm not sure if you heard any from any other department the the request is 20 the request is 20 so we're going to amend the Well that's
what they're Madam Chair yes i'll make the motion on behalf of the committee unless anybody has any further question before uh I'd like to make a motion to amend the ask uh for the town search committee
the 20,000 from $6,000 to $20,000 and this is from the reserve fund from the reserve fund and what what's the balance in the reserve fund 60,000 60,000 second
then just a question where is that going to the screen number i didn't know what too much you got to make me check second further discussion
yes paul yes yes trace yes yes zack yes gavin yes steve yes brandon yes madam Chair I'm sorry i may have missed something did I thought we just amended
the ask are we not voting on the actual request itself wasn't that was I misunderstand some of them i would vot I don't understand i just
Yeah it probably was i think we need to vote again so I make I make a motion that we now approve the transfer request from reserve of $20,000 second yes yes
yes steve yes yes thank you very much Madam Chair yes just one thing on this s if we could get
breakdown of the expenses incurred when this is all said and done we appreciate it oh of course so far it's zero but I will be happy to give you a detailed expenditure that'd be great as because I know these
things it won't be zero for much longer thank you for your support reserve okay so this is for $2,400 uh for vehicle maintenance and repairs um in in addition to the necessary
repairs and preventing maintenance on the electric vehicles it was necessary to place batteries for all three of the Volts um and he does not have uh enough money in that account right now
madame Chair yes i make a motion we approve the request at a loan of $2,400 for the board of health and vehicle maintenance and repairs second from second yes yes yes trace yes yes
yes yes yes brandon yes all right we want to go back to Paul on the other article so this is on the recontification article three um it's been going on for
about a year now I think yeah we hired um attorney Babroski um before Paul came back uh to work on our zoning um we noticed a lot of a lot of the zoning that we had had was outdated
and uh we got a grant and hired the consultant to work with us on that here to answer any questions since you went through that presentation as well no additional costs fall for the town at this point just get it passed through
Tommy in it's it's all uphill okay any questions on that moment um following this very exciting work a little bit since followed by this meeting last fall um it actually is very interesting um but I would just say that
nothing in it concerned me at all all seems pretty straightforward in your organization and as far as this committee is concerned a big bonus is um going to hopefully decrease our ability to get sued obviously initially you change the legal document maybe you increase it in the short term but the goal is to decrease it so hopefully that
proves to be true so I think it's you know endorsement side thanks Madam Chair make a motion that we um approve of article three as presented by this board
second Bill yes paul yes yes yes paula yes zack uh yes gavin yes carol over here yes brandon yes
yes have a good evening Paul the only other thing uh for tonight would be if you want to go over some of the smaller budgets i'll just go over um where we're at with the budget
so in order to do a 3% budget we will need to use um 1,517,38 from free cash and we'll also need to use 390,000 from
stabilization in order to do a 3% budget and that would be 3% for the general government and 3% um for the school department question about the um revenue expenditure sheet the numbers that you
have the totals that wasn't 3% for general government it's because there were two things added to the budget this year the 110,000 that was in an article last year that you wanted in the budget and also the tree
services for 31,000 so that would 110 that was the assessors um that's now part of her budget this the first year that that part of the budget and the tree services 31,000
that's the first year that's in his budget tree um services so both of those are in the line items now um and so that's all in here right and um you know the major as usual the
major cuts um we only have three really large departments so police and fire overtime um highway was looking to get a position back that they lost last year um council aging was looking to add a
position board of health um one reduction is the other part-time person that they had uh in the office um she retired and that's not uh recommended to be
refilled um recreation was looking to go to 30 hours a week and we wouldn't be able to do that just say that madam chair like that you currently do 25
so um were there any extra position that was the treasurer was was all looking that's still in there that isn't is that the only new position like in the whole budget mhm yes and then fire overtime are those
being moved to the fall is that the idea it all depends in terms of Yeah um from the police overtime 127,000 and from fire 173 police number uh
127146 and fire is 173762 so they have the rest of their budgets both correct yes almost any department no this is just weird they they have not yet so just to give you a perspective uh for
the schools um from their request that's a reduction of uh $696,562 and for the general government $873,923 so I understand this Mike on these budgets and I haven't gone through it you're adding a position for the senior
senator no no position for the senior senate you're adding um is there a position that the only one that we uh talked about earlier is in the treasur's office the part-time uh
person in that office that's it and you still using 300,000 from stabilization yes what was the other Mike you said board of health was not rebuild and then store is not rebuilt right those positions no
um the highway department looking to put the position back that was cut last year and uh the board of health was the part-time assistant that he had question
um was that right that when came they wanted two positions yes and and that that would be the difference between the request and the recommendation is the Okay so the highway has one new position like I got I got to double check on that cuz
I think Yeah they they cuz they should so I'll make sure I'm [Music] Madame Chair yes so Mike um I forget which meeting it was
um I'm lousy with names so the senior center begging for an additional body people up here showing their support
on how they need extra help and I agree i agree they do um then how can we not i get I guess if if you want to circle back in this conversation to what
kind of town we want to be in you know then how can we not I I I guess is my question bill I looked at the archives it took place March 17th
madam Chair uh who's that Brandon yes and so I guess just to respond to that is uh we're almost 2 million in the hole at 3% um the school's going to be
underfunded from you know compared to their budget by it was 600 and something thousand so people are going to get laid off but we want to hire someone as well doesn't doesn't add up not not a good look not being
responsible as a town right we're going to hire someone but people are going to get laid off i'm not saying I don't agree that they need help but this this isn't the time do you want to know how long I've been on this committee to hear that this
isn't the time so you know at at some point we need to stop with that excuse and really start thinking a little deeper and and I totally agree that you know maybe the schools shouldn't be cut either but uh enough is
enough with this isn't the time i've only been on the finance committee not even a year but looking at the budget the town's almost 2 million in the hole so again I I don't see how you can add additional heads if you already
don't have enough money to operate the town as it is the using fund money is pretty concerning stabilization well it's pretty concerning if if I could make a comment on that it it it is concerning
but if you remember back last year my recommendation was to put 1 million into the stabilization and it was amended to 1,500,000 so I mean we knew this was going to happen
yes you might Does James have any more information about what we may be getting with the excess tax and turnbacks and and that sort of thing what tax might look like this summer and what we might be going to for the falling
yes um we we can he just finished up doing um February so uh we can get you that the problem you have with the excise tax what is going to happen who knows i
I can't figure out what is happening with vehicles are people going to be able to buy cars cuz that's the only way our X size goes up if people go out and buy new cars and uh we don't know what's happening with that industry right now so there's a lot of uncertainty
unfortunately i don't care couple things on the money I agree with just this past day i never been to the council on any other cities
um and I was anticipating being in and out for five minutes two and a half hours later the seniors were still chewing my ear out it was Tuesday afternoon this past week people standing in their own way there was no place for
anybody to sit i mean it was like too small already the parking lot was full inside was full i mean a vibrant and I had never been there they gave me a tour they gave me a lot more than
um and they were very grateful to do um but this is I believe 30% of the population or is it higher it's growing too more than 30% of the population and we giving
them $228,000 is that is that correct how is that being in any way i don't think the dog catcher gets more than 30 population but I mean I'm with Bill on this one i think something needs to be
done over there from what I saw firstand I recommend anybody go there the place is jammed we built that facility what are they supposed to do and then secondly and I'm also to make you things even worse I'm not in favor of uh I'm not
stabilization that's for an emergency and a few hundred,000 is not an emergency on an $80 million budget it's just on Madam Chair yes um to go back to what Bill said what kind of town do we want to be i feel like we've been having that
I've been on this committee seven eight years neglot 17 and we've been having that discussion and I've heard that invoked many times in different contexts and um I'm absolutely I think this is devastating for not devastating in the
sense that they won't they'll cease to exist but in terms of what Beth and everyone who attends the senior center would like to do there but it's what everyone decided they wanted when they decided they don't want to vote for an override again and again and again and
again that's my opinion um so people have their own priorities I think and they would go into the senior center and say "This is you know horrific that we can't get more work more people to work here or people who really matter." And
the same is true for the I don't remember the number um 12 14 16 teachers that ended up being cut or personnel that ended up being cut from the schools that's on top of what was cut 7 8 n years ago um when it was override two years in a
row in 2016 and 2017 and um I've seen you know I remember talking about how the police department hasn't had an increase in the amount of staff they've had in since the early 90s or mid '9s um you
know every department in general government as well as the schools has taken so many hits in the time that I've lived here and when we ask what kind of town we want to be we make that decision if we
don't fund our government um so we made that decision people said it loud and clear and I'm afraid this is when it comes to roost it's very sad to me um because this is not the only area that's lost or is losing again so that's the
town that people decided they wanted to be overall you know in terms of community is my opinion madam Chair just to get back to the question you had on the revenue um for the re
local receipts um so far so far this year um we've collected through February about $848,518 less than we did last year a lot of that has to do with um the
auction tax title money that we got and right now uh through the end of February we have collected 85% of what the budget was for receipts
so Mike I think I brought this up before the question of you I know it's not a guarantee sorry that we're going to add to police and buyer um in the fall but I feel like it's been almost a guarantee because they've done it every single year um and
again then the schools at that point it's too late for them to add anybody so I guess I go back to the question I asked earlier i know we've done this in the past could we offset a little bit now on the school side and then make back and you know make up for it in the
fall town meeting on the general government side and so it's not 3.3% now but in the end it's it's the same percent um after fall town meeting um the problem is it there's no guarantee for one and the other issue is
in the future that's going to become um a harder harder issue this year we're increasing our local receipts that we're using for the budget by over a million dollars and you figure last year we have
a 1% budget so the amount of returns coming back from budgets this year have to be a lot smaller than they were the year before so I think um it's hard to remember and
then I asked what% she said that I mean she definitely they're definitely have to make some cuts um you know again that's where it gets really tricky for adding anything in the fall for these schools because it's not not sustainable um but we know we know
these aren't going to add those those things back in the fall which I don't know if you that's always been my kind of frustration is that it's all equal now even once you know getting 3% and it looks like across the board we're you
know dividing the pie up as best we can that always gets thrown off in the fall um especially when we start you know adding as much as we added last year i know we can't add much this year but we'll be adding something to it which at
that point doesn't really help yes um so you know the whole thing of this is how we do it every year so this is what a commission should do you know I don't really think that that really should apply anymore i mean based on
what we're faced with now I mean knowing that next year we're going to be in an even deeper hole um you know 400,000 from stabilization makes me sick um sorry i think I mean I'm going into the fall
with the attitude of you know anything's on the table i don't think that just because you've always gotten it in the fall doesn't mean it's going to happen this year like we might not be able to we can't we can't really have that attitude but I guess if we're not going to then then we're really taking a huge
gamble by not funding our police fire that seems to me like to to say we we not may not be able to backfill the overtime um I mean you know this is I know that boys and fire bumpers right if we're saying we may not be able to fund
them in the fall then I think we need to fund them now i otherwise again or if we think we're in a good position and we're going to have free cash based on that team has a pretty good handle on you know on those kinds of things um if we think we're
pretty confident that we're going to have that money and that we're safe and then we're not putting our police and fire services in jeopardy then putting go back yes correct then then we know we're going to have it in the fall then again we need to plan for that now and kind of factor that into our
calculations now it becomes a little windy with the fire especially they hire through the summer because of all the vacation time and stuff like that so they hire they hired in anticipation of getting it back
$173,000 almost got little solders that's a huge huge chunk at least have some of he didn't get it all back last year at the fall maybe a little problematic really squeezing big police side I know the
fire a little bit any other questions the other if if if there's no other questions on that i we do need to talk about whether we're going to um meet next week and I think given that our public hearing is the week after and just got this monthly
present um of things to read i'm thinking we need to meet next week to to kind of go over the details of all of this but obviously that is not we are going to have forms so wonder people on that are we looking at
Wednesday instead of Monday is that good to go on Wednesday Bill yep anyone else that no challenge i would just be a maybe a lot of work what i have a lot of work stuff i would be a maybe
I'm a maybe as well what day were you saying i just Wednesday wednesday uh either I'll be here or I'll be on Zoom okay so you're Yes then either way right god willing can I hear yes yes 1 2
3 4 5 6 oh Brandon i didn't ask uh yeah you can put me as a yes okay yeah we'll see next week you got to be here Wednesday night i guess I can motion to second
sure yes these are wrong on the desk yes you still here yeah yes brandon yep she is cute