Good evening. Welcome to the Tuesday, June 17th planning board meeting of the Norton Planning Board, Mike Beach. We are located in person in the Norton Town Hall at 72 East Main Street. You can also join us online via the Zoom link listed in the agenda.
Also, feel free to before the meeting to email any questions to town staff's email listed in the agenda. We're going to call this meeting to order. We have six members here in person tonight. We do not have any planning board
business and policies as of yet. Paul, any bills and sign? No. No bills. No bills, no minutes. Our first thing to discuss is a serpent representative. Paul, do you want to give a brief? Sure. So, um, each year the planning
board has a representative that attends, uh, different functions for Serp, in fact, uh, there are several other, uh, dep uh, townwide reps. I believe Steve is the current representative. I am
and so it is a requirement for us to get someone appointed to that to that position. Steve, you want to just tell everyone what it involves in case? I mean, mostly it involves a monthly meeting on a Wednesday night or Wednesday afternoon. Uh, usually earlier
in the afternoon, and it's like a two or three hour meeting to go over what's going on in like a 27 town community. Uh it represents all of Serpid's work and what they're doing like from anywhere from buildings, zoning, rail trails,
commercial development, all that assortment of of anything in their purview. And we have an opportunity to speak or gather resources by being part of those meetings and once or twice a year they have a a group event that people can go to and socialize.
And that's that's about it. Steve, are you interested in continuing or do we have anybody else that's interested? If anybody else wants to do it, they can. I'm going to back up. I know I had said I was, but when you're saying early in the afternoon on Wednesdays, I know I'm going to get into trouble with that. I have no problem
continuing. Okay. Appreciate it. If nobody's out, sorry, no one's jumping over the Okay. No, if it was Wednesday nights, I could do it. But Paul, you want to vote? Yes. Uh chair would entertain a motion to uh nominate and Steve as a ser
representative. So moved. Second. We have a motion and a second. All in favor? I opposed extensions. Thank you, Steve. Sure. and and there is a form too complete after.
First item on our agenda is site plan SPR1 for 361 rear old Colony Road. The applicant is Jason Massie. This application has been continued many times and the applicant is also looking for a continuence to July 8th. Um and
Paul, you said we have a form on file extending there, right? because um they have agreed to extend your 90-day uh timeline for issuing the decision which would be at the end of this month. So they've put in writing uh till July
31st. Uh they're still dealing with some issues with Concom. They're still actively working on it. So it's not they're still actively Right. If it was dead in the water and they weren't talking about it with another board, it's their drive. It's the driveway. My opinion, we should give that to them.
Go ahead, Tim. Uh, Paul, just to confirm, is the timeline for us to close the public hearing or to issue a decision or have the decision stamped by the clerk? Just trying to figure out what's our No, it's it's to issue actually issue the decision. So, it would be close the
public hearing, issue a decision, but they've given it to us in writing, which you do you will want to vote on that tonight. Vote on both the continuence and the extension request. Okay. I would chair will entertain a motion one at a time. First would be to
continue SPR 11 to July 8th. So moved. Second. We have a motion in a second. All in favor? I I opposed. Chair would entertain another motion to accept the applicant's letter for a
90-day extension. So moved. Second. Second. Motion is second. All in favor? I opposed. Next item on agenda is site plan review SPR16 and special permit 24 for 260
South Washington Street. The owner is Giovani at all. Applicant David Mackwell. Applicant is requesting to build a 59,087 square foot building with 20 parking spaces. All yours. Good evening, Mr. Chairman.
Evening, members of the planning board, um any concerned members in the audience, and anybody following on Zoom. My name is David Mwell with Kelly Engineering Group. On behalf of the applicant unit, Cold Storage, and the owners of the property, we helped put
together the applications and documents within your site plan review package. If we could um bring up the uh slides when you get a chance, I'll just start going. So, as noted in the public record, we have filed for site plan review to construct a building larger
than 2500 square feet. This is just a picture of a rendering of what we think the building will look like from South Washington Street. Um, we also need a special permit to construct more than 10,000 square ft. Those are the two permits that we have requested from the
planning board. In addition to that, we will be going or we already have already gone to the zoning board of appeals, received a uh sideyard variance for dimensional relief. We will also be going to the conservation commission for a notice of intent
um order of conditions. So this first slide is um just getting us familiar with what we think and we might come back to this one, but we'll just go through the project a little bit if we go to the next slide. I think that down button will get you there pretty quick.
There we go. This is really a picture taken out of the traffic report, the transportation report that was provided with the um application. You'll see on this screen we are on the southern part of Norton. We're bounded by Route 495
that you see on the top there. Southbound is the closest to the uh to the site that's highlighted. We are in between uh an extended stay hotel on the right and a uh warehouse distribution center on the left. Also almost directly
across from Commerce Way is part of the Norton Industrial Park. We are fully within the industrial zoning district. If we could go to the next slide. The subject property is approximately 7 and 12 acres. It's currently undeveloped
with the exception of a uh a billboard um on the site. And this particular slide is a rendering of what the project will look like. The project proposes a approximately 56,000 square ft uh
footprint building with eight individual units of cold storage. The site will be uh divided just as you see here into eight units with one smaller unit in the middle. That's the utility corridor where we'll have water
closet, electric closet and some you and um and some utilities. Each um particular unit will get two loading docks and all of the units will share approximately 20 parking stalls.
In addition to the features up and at the building, there are proposed 30 accessory trailer storage positions around the site. Um the owner is here with us today, unit cold storage, Mr. John Gella, expert in the cold storage
industry and um is here to facilitate in any way through the planning board or the public any questions about the cold storage use or particulars about this particular um building.
U we'll go to the next slide I think which is maybe my layout and zoning plan. We'll just briefly show you one of the plans that we put together. This is just a colored version of the same plan. And what you can see here is, as I had mentioned before, in red is the building
setbacks. This is the plan we also took to the zoning board of appeals. We went and got our sideyard variance so we can fit proper uh truck access out in this part of the site and um it's away from the the hotel.
The other features that you see here, we do have some wetlands in the north part of the site. We have some wetlands in this part of the site as well. As I had mentioned, we will be filing with the conservation commission uh our notice of intent permit for our notice of intent. Um with respect to zoning, we fully
comply with zoning with the exception of the one variance obtained from the zoning board of appeals. Um we can keep going through. So the site is accessed commerce ways right here. We come right in with a nice curb cut almost directly
across. This is a copy of the utility plan. Really, we're just showing here uh we're coming in with full utilities, pulled building a full water loop around the building as required by the Norton water regulations. Um storm water here is going to be
captured and recharged under the ground. We have really good well- drained soils here. So, the big larger things right here are our drainage systems. They are designed to accommodate all the storm water runoff with an overflow to the wetland areas where the drainage winds
up today. Um there is private sewer available in Commerce Way. However, we are going to use the well- drained soils and we have a leech field proposed out in the back here. Um we did the test holes. We have two minute per inch perk rates and um we're going to take
advantage of the good good soils and low flow rates here for the proposed cold storage use. We don't anticipate a a large number of employees being in these bu in the building all the time. Um no natural gas will be provided to the
building and electric will come off the street. We'll have a transformer right out in front of the um electric closet. So, it's fairly straightforward. Um, as I had mentioned, we had about a 54 square footprint
building and then we can go to the next slides and we'll show show a little bit more things. So, these slides really just show the fire truck can come in and get all the way to the back. We just are all the turning movements. We have a couple of these slides. You want to just keep
thumbing through these quickly. This one shows once they get to the back, they can turn around without even interfering with one of the um accessory trailer stalls. So, we're fully equipped for for uh fire protection. And the next slide shows they can really just if they needed to get in here for a quick call,
they can turn around without much of a bother either without moving trucks. So, um fire department has had a chance to peek at that. So, we um we're in good shape there. So, we did submit a landscaping plan as required with the
package. We took a look at the um zoning bylaw and put some screening trees in the appropriate locations and also have some um landscaping around the entire site. So, also part of the package that we filed was um a lighting
plan uh as designed from through the zoning bylaw maximum height 20 ft dark sky compliant LED lighting. So there won't be any nuisance lighting that was submitted as part of the package. Um we can go through that's really just the phototric plan that shows there's no
light spill onto adjacent properties as well. And the next slide is that's the overall site plan for the lights. That's really just shows the schedule of lights that that they're 20 ft. It's hard to read from here, but
they're 20 ft pole height. Um next slide. This are the elevations of the building. Um what you would look at from one side where we see all the loading docks as we get to the units. And then the back of the building is very plain with just egress doors. This side view shows us
here we have a the taller part in the back is the cold storage. That's about 35 ft tall from finished floor to the tallest point and the other part is about uh 20t tall or so in the front. If we go to the next slide. So these these
um buildings are set up each uh tenant or purchaser will get about I think 7,200 um square feet and a large portion of it as we can see on this plan. This is all the freezer in the
back fully racked and in the front each each tenant will get a small little loading area for circulation a very small office and a very small mezzanine just above the office. Those are about 700 square ft. So, it's a pretty pretty modest
um development for not not supposed to house a lot of people. So, the way these will work is the freezers will be very cold, well below freezing. The loading areas are kept at about 40° um because the in
anticipated use is mostly food uses. So the only really conditioned space would be the office itself which will be heated and cooled as needed. And um so that's what the buildings will look like. I think we we did a fairly
comprehensive filing that included storm water reports, traffic reports, um architectural plans, lighting plans, landscaping plans. We think we checked all the boxes u of what is normally required for site plan approval and special permit for a development like
this. Um as I said we do have the applicant here to answer any questions status on other things. We did sit down with the staff for a round table which was very productive. We have some minor comments from the water department and
um some minor comments from the applicant and some other things. So, we also authorized the um planning board's agent to follow up with a peerreview process which we have funded and we uh look forward to working with the peerreview consultant to make any
adjustments to the plans as uh as as needed. And I think I I think I might have another slide on here that I just put the findings of the traffic report, which I don't really need to spend a lot of time on and we don't even have to bring them up. But the findings really are it's tough to read at this distance,
but you're you're looking at a maximum of I think it was 130 trips a day, which is uh very low with a warehouse storage building. And that reduces to only approximately seven trips at the peak
hours. And traffic consultant said that the increases in traffic are minimal and kind of within the daily fluctuation. No off-site mitigation is recommended and this development will have no significant impact on the local street
systems. As we had mentioned at the beginning, we're in the south part of Norton and this property is really accessed from Taton where access is from 495. So, one of the recommendations in the traffic report on the next page is
we should put left turn trucks left turn only because that's where the highway is and um put a restriction on right-hand turns for trucks. Um in addition to that I think they recommended that we put a uh Astro recommended stop sign in and um
keep the landscaping low site does exceed site distances. Now the traffic engineer has looked at that. So, um, with that and, um, through the chairman, I would close my part of the
presentation and remind the the board and the public that we do have, uh, owner representation here to discuss any facets of the project that we would like to discuss at this time and um, we would like to keep moving the project forward. I got a couple quick questions before we
go to the rest of the board. You do not have to file with Concom, is that correct? We do have to file with Kong. We actually filed in the winter with Kong. We have some isolated wetlands out in the front of the property and we have um during our uh abbreviated notice of
resource area denineation. The commission asked us to evaluate the isolated pockets um for presence of vernal pool species. We've recently completed that. So now we're ready to move forward with our filing with the conservation commission. We we aim to do
that maybe next week. So we don't anticipate any um any hurdles with the isolated wetlands that way becomes a buffer zone project and um we think we check all the boxes. We've also authorized the peerreview consultant to
review drainage considerations that would normally be under the purview of the conservation commission both with respect to the wetlands protection act and the associated drainage regulations and also the town of Norton stormwater management bylaw. We've designed the
site to be compliant with both of those. My uh next question would be I believe this is not the only location this uh owner has this type of building in. Correct. There's other facilities owned by this company for this exact use. I I'll speak as well well as I can here
for for the for the owner who is here. The answer the answer is no. My history was building big. Do you want to come up and just state your name just so we can get you on the camera please? My name is John Gallagher. Um, raised in Sturbridge, Mass. Started a big company.
It was originally condine freezers. We built Cranes Landing. That's how far back I go to this neighborhood. Then, uh, lived in Stoton, married a girl from Brockton. Went to UMass, South Dartmouth, which used to be called SMU engineer. I traveled the country. Uh, built a bunch of huge cold stoages like the ones
you saw in Taton that Conine freezers built. The ones in Avon Stoton, the ones that are here that Lineage bought. I sold my business to lineage five years ago. This is a concept I had over 30 years. Those little boxes are for small food companies, little emerging incubator like companies, a local fruit
guy, a local produce guy, a local meat guy, a New Bedford seafood company. So, it's multi-tenant to provide space that little food companies can't find. So, this is not going to have the traffic of a Cisco or a Gordon Food Service or this
is Little Food Guys. It could be a Linguisa manufacturer in Fall River. Could be a wholesale florist that delivers flowers to all the flower shops. So, he goes to the airports and bring imports flowers. He can't find a place to rent like this. I found it in every city I built in. So, it's brand
new. You're going to be the first one. We're building three in year one. One in South Florida between Fort Lauderdale and Palm Beach off I95. We're building one in Texas and Houston between the city and the port. And this one. And if these three fill up, we've raised a
billion dollar fund to build one in every city in America. Because it's what's missing in the refrigerated warehouse business is little, modern, unbelievably efficient, clean little food buildings to rent for growing small companies. That's cuz our food business
has changed. It's we don't just eat steak and potatoes anymore. We have high ethnicity. Everybody wants organic, fresh, local, smaller businesses, more direct, not all that factory-made stuff. So there's just this huge group and growing every day of smaller fresh food
providers and they need space like this. They don't need a monster warehouse. So that's the idea behind it. And just having lived around here, the intersection of 95, 495, 140, and 24 is perfect. And we will put signs up on our property that says trucks must go left.
I think we leave it open for cars because I don't think you want to stop cars from taking the right on South Washington and coming into Norton to go to the gas station or the convenience store or whatever and take some of the pressure off the intersection where Bra is. I know the neighborhood. I understood it. I remember when Cisco built on South Wall Street and the
show that that was for the neighbors that lived around there. Felt bad for all of them. So, I think we'll put our own signs and influence trucks to turn left, but leave the cars open. I don't think it's so bad for a car to take a right. No, we would just probably have that in our conditions, which I'm sure you're not going to mind. I don't have a
problem with it because I lived here and I get it. Y you want the trucks to go to the major intersection and get on 95 and be gone, but I don't think the cars you want to necessarily steer away from you. So, any questions? I'll answer them, but that's about it. I got a couple other quick little questions, and I missed it.
How many employees are you thinking or how many people on site at? We will have no employees. These are for lease, correct? I would say the average one will have four or five. They'll have three or four truck drivers. They'll park their car. They'll get in their truck probably in the early hours, 6:00 or 7 a.m., and go where they got to go.
There'll be a couple of people in the office, a warehouse worker or two. So, that would be another one of my questions is the hours of operation. What we're going to put in our permit for hours of operation. I I just got to be honest, I wouldn't want to try to lease it and tell people you can only work these hours. Yep.
These small food companies like to start early and get on the road before the traffic. They like to get in by the early afternoon before the traffic gets bad at rush hour. That's just how they operate. I mean, but they don't really work Saturdays and Sundays delivering to restaurants and hotels. And so, it's kind of a 6:00 or 7 in the morning kind
of a thing. Get the trucks loaded. Typically, they load them the night before and they're ready to roll in the morning. What was the uh thinking going septic versus sewer? Is it a cost thing? Is it just curious? It's not a cost thing. I I wish you had
city sewer in the street. got tie into it in 10 seconds. I thought he said there was sewer private. Oh, it's private. We know there's a pipe there, but we haven't been able to find out whose it is, who owns it, where does it go. If if anybody could help me with it, I'm willing to listen, but very So, it's
an option and we'll still look at it, but the effluent coming out is minor. There's one toilet in each unit. If it gets flushed six times a day, I'll be shocked. So, there's no processing, no production, no waste water, nothing. It's one toilet in each unit that'll be
used half a dozen times a day. And I guess my only other question that I wrote down, you said no natural gas. We don't need it. You don't need it. So there's no going to be backup generator or anything. We're going to use 14 uh heat pumps, electric heat pumps. And you
know, it's just 600 foot of office, which is probably a third of this room. 15 ft by the length of this room is each floor's little office. So it'll just have electric heat, but a heat pump. It'll be a heat pump unit. So, it's about as efficient as you can get. Just to clarify what you were just asking,
but there's no generator, nothing to back up that. No. So, if power is lost in the area, the refrigeration goes to just like a just like a um cooler you have that you put food and ice in. If that building's cold and the power goes out, if you keep the
doors closed and the lights off, it's good for a couple of days. Okay? It's just And you really only worry about the four months out of the year that it's hot in the winter. You're not worried about it at all. But we are designing the transformer with what's called lugs on the side and we will have a place to get a generator
if we need one. Okay. No, that's not fine. I was just curious because he raised a good point. I was surprised. No, we when was the last time the power went out for more than eight hours. You can count it on one hand probably over 25. That's between you and your tenants anyhow. Yeah. No, it's we don't
we don't see a big deal with it. Yeah. I'll go to the rest of the board. Tim, it looks like you've got a few questions. I have a couple. Yeah. um talked about hours of the operation. The traffic study that you mentioned is that just based on it calcs for a warehouse. So it's not based on specific cold
storage trip tech. It's just warehouse. I I do believe it's cold storage warehouse. Um so they do have a specific use. There isn't there isn't a model of this type as you mentioned. Yeah. Just said. So yeah, it's anticipated based on
it trips. Yes. The other question I was just going to ask, um, obviously if you're going to keep these really cold, you're going to have some monster air conditioners or chillers running up on the top there. That was I'm not calling them dumb, but that was a they're
designed to run cooler or freezer. So, the warehouse portion that you saw the racks, that could be 42 degrees, which would be a flower person. Could be 35 if it's a cheese person. Okay? Could be 38 if it's pharma, medicines or something like that. It's not necessarily minus 10 or zero. Yeah,
I can't say because it could be fresh meat, fresh cheese, fresh produce, flowers. Yeah, you're you're still going to have significant if we roll back to the site plan. You won't see a piece of refrigeration equipment. That was my background as refrigeration engineer. I'm not actually going there. I'm going somewhere completely different. So, um
I'm thinking mostly in terms of noise. Um because we have New England ice cream in town and they abut a residential property. There have been complaints about the noise from that facility on that property to the point where they
came to this board to put in a big sound wall to keep people from there is no refrigeration equipment on the roof on the front or on the side that you will see. There's no visible equipment. You won't hear it. You won't see it. It won't be visible.
I I get it. It will be quiet, silent, and invisible. Can we pull up the floor? That works for me. Behind, you know how when I uh explain the project, he can pull the plan up again. We have eight units of cold storage and we also had a sliver of utility room. Behind that
utility room is back down to finished floor with the concrete slab where all of the um air handlers and things will be at elevation grade. There's nothing on the roof. There's nothing you'll see from outside. So you you right here,
everything is inside the perimeter of the building with nothing on the roof. Nothing that you'll see from the street. Nothing exposed. What would what would have been on the roof is going to be in this area back in here. And that will distribute to all all the all of the with internal piping. You won't even see a pipe on the roof. That's fine. Now I
just know that we have had other projects where people have gone, okay, what's the mass D regulation on noise at abing properties and bought a decibel meter. So if it's not going to be a problem for you, then you won't have to worry about it later. It'll be the same
noise as anybody else with a truck pulling in the driveway or pulling out. You won't be noisy because of the refrigeration in the building. You won't hear it. You won't hear it and you won't see it. Mr. chairman. I I have it on Google Earth here if people want to see what they have for neighbors around them.
Yeah, I was thinking mostly about the extended stay. Extended stay is relevant. I can imagine somebody working a 12-hour shift as a visiting nurse coming home and hearing an air conditioner keeping them up all night is going to be uh an angry phone call. But if it's all going to be contained, then they won't see it, they won't hear it.
And once we finish the site work, because I stay in the hotel, I'm staying in it right now tonight and I have a room facing where I'm building. Once we finish the job, I'm not worried about the lights for the building because, as he said, they engineered it for dark sky. Everything shines down and away. But when a truck lights up, the
headlights turn on and they're facing this way. We put the building this way so the building's away from the hotel, but the lights are going to shine like this. But they're only this high off the ground. Once we see where the lights really go, we'll just put bushes the whole way so they don't hit the hotel. That's just common sense. But we're not
$30 million or whatever it is later. I don't care about a bunch of shrubs. Common sense isn't. So, no, we'll we'll put a long row of shrubs, whatever the height has to be and the density cuz it's the truck headlights that are going to focus at the hotel. It's not the building and
that we have to fix once we see it and we will. If we have to put up a fence, we'll put up a fence, but I think we can do it with shrubbery so it looks good and blinds the lights. Tim, you have anything else? Rob? Um, yeah, Mr. Chairman. Um I would just like to clarify the what's remaining then is
just um you need to settle with Concom. Mhm. And um you have a peer review going on. Yes. And that is it. Yep. Okay. That's all I wanted to So we won't be closing tonight. We'll be waiting for the peer review. We'll get as much out
of the way as we possibly can. I'm good. Bridget, I'm good. Steve, no. I just think it's a great concept. It is. I like the Yeah, the the concept's cool comment. Yeah. Yeah, we think so. No pun intended. It was It was I've I've been in the cold storage business since
I was 22 and I'm 40, almost 65, so it's a long time. Every city I built in, I always had salespeople coming to me, little food guys, wanted to just rent some space, park a truck and control their destiny so they could just get to their food and pick their orders and do their stuff. Ken, do you want them to do
a quick little It'll take two minutes to decipher the site plan to you since you missed a little bit of it. Do you want them to explain a little about the project? Do you don't mind? Could you just give Ken a really high overview quick in the concept of the building? Great. Thank you. I appreciate it. Um, so the site plan review, we filed for a
site plan review for construction over 2500 square ft. And since it's over 10,000 square ft, we need a special permit. Uh, for both of those, we've uh assisted the board in the recommended findings in our narrative that went in
with the application. Um, so the project uh is on South Washington Street on a seven and a half acre uh mostly vacant lot. The only thing occupying the property right now is a billboard that's down by uh 495. That doesn't inter interfere with this project at all. Um
the project is for a 54 plus or minus uh square footprint building with a small mezzanine space in each of the units um for a total of 59,000 square ft. Um we're proposing approximately 20 car
parking stalls, 16 loading um bays on the building for the eight tenants and approximately 30 um trailer and truck storage spaces uh throughout the site. Um the site has been fully engineered
for water uh sewer drainage and um plans have been submitted and are going to be peer-reviewed for those items. um to uh catch up on other boards. We did go to the zoning board of appeals for a sideyard variance and we
received that based on a uh uh soils and shape hardship. We do need a um wetlands permit from the conservation commission. We will be uh filing a notice of intent for an order of conditions through the state wetlands protection act. Um, we had a traffic
report done by a traffic consultant who um felt that the uh driveway location was appropriate and the anticipated traffic from a development like this will have very little to no impact on the surrounding streets.
Okay. Um, so Ken, you did miss a little bit. If you want to take some time and review it, we're not going to vote tonight, so you have time to look at it. All right. Um, we're waiting for a peer review and if you have any questions, you can email Paul. I do have one sure one question. I know that initially I
think it was Steve that uh brought up an issue with the uh the vehicles exiting the parking lot. There was a kind of an angle issue. No, you remember different project. Oh, different project. Okay. some similar location, but they did offer to put up
signage recommending that all the trucks take a left out of the site and head towards the highway and don't go up Washington Street through all the residential areas. So, all right. And that we would have probably asked for that anyway, but they offered it. So, my apologies for for for being late
tonight. Does he want to see this we're talking about here? Ken can I can show it to you. bridges. We can do this another I can do this offline from the meeting to to show them that it's on South Washington Street. This is the industrial park. This is the extended. So the board doesn't appear to have any
other questions right now. Does anybody of the public in present or no one online yet? Paul no one in the Zoom meeting. I believe this is like I'm not seeing any external participants in the Zoom. No, no one in the Zoom meeting and doesn't look like
anyone in the public's running up to the podium to speak right now. Um, is there anything else you'd like to leave us with? No, thank you. Thank you for your time. And uh, you have a beautiful new room here. What is your anticipation of the
peerreview, Paul? When should we consider the continuence for Well, it it's Pat Brennan who's usually pretty quick. He's pretty quick. Um, so I would think when are you going to Concom? We'll probably file next week. So, um, your your July hearing is at the midmon,
I take it. We have, uh, July. July 8th. July 8th. Is there a second one in July? There is, um, July 22nd. Our only rush is not muddy or greedy. It's winter, right? Mhm. That's fair.
Yeah, it's just winter. We'd like to get pushing dirt in September. That's fair. So we could pour concrete before Christmas so we can get the building up concrete January, February, March. So I think July 22nd would probably be more
in line with us getting filed up to speed any com any comments from the commission that might require anything. And that would also give us time to receive the peer review and react to it so we're all in better position if we can do that to move forward on the 22nd.
The eighth might be a little tight, but it's possible. Seems more than reasonable to me. Pat will definitely catch any notations that you uh in HydroCat or wherever else. We we've worked with uh Pat many times and uh look forward to working with him on this one. So, Mr. Chairman, would you
entertain a motion to continue to the 22nd, please? So moved. Seconded. We have a motion to continue SPR 16 and SP 24 to July 22nd. All in favor? I I
opposed. Abstensions. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Have a good night. Thank you. Next item on our agenda is the joint discussion with the historic district commission regarding the village center
core zoning district. Good evening. Could we get you to come up to the microphone so we could hear you better and Yes. Yes. That's fine. I I we And is that a
concern? We're not taking any votes. We're just having a friendly discussion. I But I have no chair, but we want to be mindful if deliberation starts without a quorum, then they could have an issue. They could have an issue. So if they're deliberating or we're deliberating or
we're talking, I guess, is the question. Yeah. I mean, we'd want to keep it just as conversation and not so to indicate which way you would go with something. So, let's hear their concerns and then we can I'd like to hear that. Yeah, let's hear some concerns and where we are and we won't get into the weeds of
it too much and then we can come back anytime and with more people. That's a deal. Deal. Uh Peg Douly 134 Godfrey Drive Historic District Commission. I am a co-chair. Nancy is the other co-chair and Ellen McGrath is
our member. And as I said, we're not a quorum. Um uh we would like to we have a conflict with the historic district and the VCC um in terms of requirements that each
wish and we would like to be removed from VCC. We would like the VCC to be modified. That's it. Do we know how many how many properties are we talking about with regards to in that overlap the two
districts? Double digit. Uh it it runs down taunt nav from a percentage wise of area. Is that maybe an easier way to think about it and pull something up? We don't have to get it tonight. We can just leave it as a question. Could I ask are you
requesting that the VCC be removed from your district or that your district be removed from the VCC area? HDC Historic District removed from VCC. So So you don't want the VCC to be under your jurisdiction anymore? No, just separate.
Not under just separate. Well, I'm not sure. Like um your historic district and the VCC are just overlapping. Yes. Geographically they're overlapping. So do you is your request
to go back to a time when the VCC was not there and you had control of that district more when it was zoned village commercial would would like is your preference to go back a couple years or I'm sorry
what is currently the VCC to not be considered the historic district anymore? No, please do consider it the historic district. So you want the VCC to follow your code. No, they can certainly have
their own code. Okay. But it must come to us for our own requirements and control as to what is built there. I don't mind you guys having like a superseding thing beyond us. That's not
an argument for me. Um, so under your jurisdiction, I'm not completely familiar with I tried to look at you have your document. It seems quite vague that you have a lot of control, which it don't have a problem with. Um, are you trying to control the height of the
building, uh, how many floors, uh, how many occupants? No, no, not so much that, but definitely the footprint. Definitely the height, the width, the sideyard, back, front requirements, the um the green space,
all of that. Do you have a set of standards that we can use? No. So, how do we know which standards to apply? We have to have it in a zoning district of something. If if you like if you say that you want a a setback of 20 feet for
the from the sideyard and you let us know, we could update the code to make that mandatory and then there would be no conflict. But if you don't give us a number, it'll always be a guess. I can certainly appreciate that and that thought has come to us in terms of
actually taking a um a um an average of front yards for instance in feet of all of which in the is in the historic district now. Sure. Um it simply is um
um an at an an atmosphere so to speak that your VC um requirements now would allow tremendous structures that absolutely do not have any place whatsoever in the historic district in the center of town
in in compliance compliance I'm using that um word loosely in compliance with that which is already in the historic district and we'd like to see that same ambiance. Uh it's in congruent a lot of the things that are being planned and we
also want to ward off future if something gets accepted now that's a rolling stone and it could come back to us and it would just be demolished along the way. Obviously that would be in another generation or so. That's the principle of the thing. Sure, Tim. Yeah,
I was going to say I mean this is um obviously came in much more I think in focus with the proposal at the old bank property. Yeah, but the go on the the bylaws have been there for 5 years and when they went into effect we saw some movement and some of it is good
like the at least I'll say subjectively good the development at the old library which has been sitting there for a long time. I know the properties at the houses at the corner were for sale for a long time and then they actually moved. I mean I think the way I viewed it and I
said this to the West Main applicant like you know the historic district commission has jurisdiction here. My feeling is if they're not coming to you first and they're coming to us first then they're
asking for trouble. And I told them that and they said we want to go ahead. Let's be careful talking about specific sorry projects. But I I mean that's my feeling is that if some an applicant doesn't get the historic district commission on board before they're coming to us with
something that they think is going to be a challenge, then the historic district commission has authority there to say no. I mean, again, from from my perspective, I'm willing as a planning board member
to grant you full authority. I I don't need to retain control over this district. That's yours your purview. I just need a code to go by that's your standards so we can implement it properly. I I think we need to look at Sorry to interrupt you, but I think we
need to look at a the properties that we're talking about on a map. Let's highlight them all. Sure. see every lot and then do we talk about if we can't find something in our zoning talk about a whole new zone historic district zone?
Sure. Well, we can that's we could easily make we could easily make a historic district zone with specific requirements too like a new district. Correct. That's not just a paper district um in in that regard. And right now they're they were a village
commercial but it's VCC now and it overlaps with residential zoning the R60 and most of their well half the properties are Weaten College. Mhm. So it's that main strip from from intersection to intersection basically from the common to where the cannon is.
Is that correct? That's Yes. But it also goes down obviously in 140 123 in both directions. Pine Street, Elm Street, um a couple little off the end. Yeah. Yeah.
Um but yeah, again, from my my view, I would say just if we can have a district made up with your specific requirements, your development design criteria and what you guys would like officially allowed as uses in that district.
I may be overstepping, but I can't see us going through each of the pages of what VCC allows for us to address what we think. Would you like me to volunteer to come to a session with you guys and
go through it? I'm sorry. I'll go through it with you guys. I'll just come to a session and go through it with you guys if you like. But I don't think I don't think it's correct that we should be tied into all of dimensions um sideyard blah blah blah
blah blah. You have to have some sort of zoning in place to give guidelines on what's acceptable to build on those lots. You have to have zoning. Well, I understand what you're saying, but we we're involved with um Massachusetts Commission Preservation Societies as
well, and that is not the case. Each each um concept, each project that comes to us or them all over the state, they're all individual and they're so infrequent that it would be really convoluted to go
through all of what VCC and VC was. I mean, I I understand what you're all saying. I think they're saying if it's worth doing, it's worth doing, right? Um, and we don't want to just talk about it and not do anything about it. Um, and it's not easy. It's very involved process what we're talking about doing.
It would take quite a while. Paul, do you have any idea any what Peg's talking about of Not entirely. Me neither. I mean the the challenge I've had with this and and I understand the situ their situation but
without standards in the historic district it's a very subjective it's not predictable as we've talked before about about village about any of our zoning we live in a world of standards build you know heights setbacks it's predictable
I mean developer looks at you just sat through the presentation here they talked about their setbacks It's it's you know when you don't and know clearly your bylaw says you you have powers to supersede zoning but you
don't have a standard. I mean you you mentioned earlier too about well we'd like to do an assessment of where the setbacks are in the current we don't have that right now. Um and that's that's a challenge because it's without those
standards it's not predictable Tim but our standard would be what is already there and what is proposed that it would blend in but you need to codify that you Paul can I go ahead I was going to say with
looking at our zoning bylaw I'll say today and potentially recodified to live in two worlds at once How explicitly is it spelled out in our zoning bylaws that the historic district exists
and that applicants looking to do anything in that district need to go to the the historic district commission? It it's not it's not explicit. Is that something at a minimum that we can put in our
discussions for later of making that very explicit? I'm not sure where it belongs in which section. So whether it's tonight or whether it's the next session, but just to be very blunt and say properties developed in the historic
district must get a letter of approval from the historic district commission prior to a yeah I think and as we're going through
the bylaw update we can find a spot and in that way it's uh very clear to anybody like go here first because we're not going to be able to act on it without them looking at it. And we do have a peg, we do have a good little time frame here. We we did present a new
zoning bylaw at last town meeting. It was denied. We're bringing forth another attempt at a new zoning bylaw in the fall fall town meeting. So, we do have some time between now and then. We're going to be discussing parts of this bylaw tonight where we could possibly
add in something like Tim was just saying. Maybe we can address some of this pretty soon going forward is what I'm saying. Mhm. It's a certificate of appropriateness after an application process, etc. On the town website, our guidelines are there electronically and
they're there for anyone to look at and there are simply specifics. Again, it's not 20 feet, it's not 50 feet, it's not 10 spaces, it's not 50 spaces. It is. It is something that has to blend in and be respectful of that which already is. When's the last time there's a project
other than the last one? Is it has it ever come up before? You mean within the historic district? Yes. Very rarely with new construction. The lovely house that was a lovely house opposite the um opposite the post office was new construction and the Wheaten dorm on on
um Pine Street. And that of course, as you can imagine, was volumes of meetings with engineers, etc., etc., architects. And it was a smaller situation regarding um the house on Taton Avenue. Uh it was to be a residence for his mother. It was
very easy. He kept going through um uh plans until we all felt that they lent itself to the area. Yeah. I think the the Wheaten dorm was before us for a meeting, but because they were do, it was more of a it was a courtesy. They didn't have to
come before us at all because it was a do amendment, but they uh and I'm not sure who had the input of having like the the path going through there into the courtyard. Whether that was the historic district commission or us, I forget, but yeah, it might have been before me. I don't remember. I think
Kevin was there. But, you know, if I may um if I may make a couple of more comments, keep going. We um are not on a list apparently. And if it comes out of the town clerk's off um yeah town clerk's office, I'm not sure. We're not on a checklist for whatever
permits that might be given if they go through everybody. For instance, um Weaten College is obviously in the middle of the historic district. They have a permit from conservation indicating all that all that is having to be done on the um on the um campus
having to do with it really doesn't have anything to do technically with us. It's not anyway, but we would like to know what's going on. In effect, we have to know and part of the guidelines indicate that as well. So, there is a there is a checklist on our on our open gov where all our projects are listed. There's
check there's a checklist for fire department treasurer. There's seven or eight um departments that it does have to go through fire department. Right. And apparently we're not on it, but obviously it would only be having to do with the historic district, not all over town. Correct. And also we feel as
though we were never we were never um presented the VCC to begin with way back way back when it was introduced and worked on etc. I presented it to you. Do you have a date in minutes? Because we none of us even even do you have minutes
because it was your meeting. So Oh no, none of us remember it. And it was also approved by such a small it was in a football field during co and I don't recall was it 100 people or was it more than that and there certainly wasn't a great deal of conversation or people
don't pay a lot of attention myself included we just voted $70 million budget with no discussion so it doesn't surprise me. See, that's what I mean. And and actually, it's very interesting sitting here. We can't we first of all were here for the um selectman's meeting. And
there were five people here, maybe six, which is a kind of a shame, but I don't show up either, so I'm part of that. But it's fascinating to sit at these meetings. I' I've been to a couple of the Would you like our schedule? I'm sorry. Would you like our schedule? I already get it online and I check out.
And Nancy Ellen, do you have anything to say? do you have any input into this because obviously we're all involved and unfortunately I thought we needed I thought well we were technically we were on the agenda for the selectman's meeting and because having to do with
the traffic study our input and we did not have a quorum [Music] somewhat last minute and I thought that was what we were going to hit with you people but apparently not I think we're just having a friendly discussion they wanted a vote from you I think too I
would think was talk. Yeah. But would it have been a discussion? If there was anybody else who wanted to come up, we just ask them to pop up to the microphone too and uh seed the podium. If you don't mind, pick. Yeah. And if we could do name and address too, please. You have to. Sure. Um I'm Nancy Federichi at 42 Mansfield. A I've lived
in Norton for 28 years and I love the town. I'm on a lot of different um community commissions and whatnot. I do live in a house uh that was built for the third minister, the PC Clark house, 1797,
and I'm the sixth family to live there. So, we just and we're not in the historic district. So, we it's just our thing to be a steward of the area. And I think just by um the common interest of
historical architecture, things like that brought me into the historic district commission. And I used to be on the historic commission, but I wanted to get a little bit closer to home. What's what I think we as a newer uh commission have discovered
and are bad is we have not really gone into and memorized all the guidelines and the guidelines are very and bylaws are very dated and so we are now struggling with hopefully updating them.
Uh we are in conversation with um town council and they're willing to work with us. Um but we have what we saw that we were kind of shocked with is that we were never copied. It says right
in the bylaw bylaws that planning and building are supposed to send the historical commission copies of all permits. So, um, not to interrupt you, but just before I forget this, have you had any conversations with the new building inspector?
I didn't know there was a new one. You should you should have a conversation with the new building inspector also. I met him and Kathy. Yes. And yes, that was said. And we just learned like your whole new process is electronic. Yes. So, that was that was something new for us, too. So,
you know, we're trying to educate ourselves as well as every all the other commissions that, you know, you you things gets, you know, I fight with that login thing every single time. It's not easy. No. And that's what we're like to
be careful what you wish for. Um, but by the same token, um, we want to hear of what's going on and we want to be supportive and we work very closely with Weaten and we've never really had a problem with them, too. So, in other words, they know how to get a hold of
us. Um, but we feel the future's coming and there could be some big changes. And, um, most of the people we talk with said that we don't want to be a Mansfield. You know, the common shouldn't look like Mansfield. It just isn't appropriate.
But that's all we have in this town. You, too, when you think about it. Uh, the common is probably one of the the prettiest sites, if not, you know, and we're known for that. And I've also worked on the town common restoration
when um the the fence was being rebuilt, uh raising funds for all that. And both Peg and I and Ellen, we all belong to the uh uh the Norton Garden Club. And we're the ones that brought back the
horse trough. I specifically um kind of carried a torch for the lantern that's on the top which is was actually paid for by the uh garden club and that's a historically accurate 1888 lantern. Um and DPW was wonderful about it but we
looked and there's only 20 of those horse troughs in the New England area. So it's it's pretty special as well as the fence. So, um I think that's why we're just trying to encourage a little bit more of a stewardship um of the area
before things happen where you go by and you go, "Boy, I wished I had done something." Um or that just isn't working. And we're not looking at a big change, I don't think. But we have to make sure that if there is change, it's it's appropriate.
So, I I can say I've been doing this for a little while now. Tim's been doing this for a while. I want to speak for him. Up until this last issue, I had never heard of getting a permit from you guys or going to you guys first. Uh I don't know anybody else. Steve's pretty
informed. I'm not sure if I mean I I You're pretty good with the historic stuff and the preservation. I knew you were a thing, but this is the first time it's come up. Oh, we we hear that all the time. And I mean I didn't I didn't know we were a thing. You're the new thing in town. Yeah. Good. We like that.
I don't mind that you have a veto. I think that's that's kind of your role is to veto whatever project. But I think I don't think it should be a veto ahead of time. We're basically looking to have it, you know, harmonize and and an overlay or whatever a district.
That's exactly the term made for the criteria even if you guys don't use it. This gives us a starting point where any developer in that spot is not going to offend you guys to begin with. And we actually work very closely with the Mass Historic Preservation and they have a list serve. So I know what Newton's
doing. I know what Nem's doing. I know what, you know, other places, small and rich communities are doing. We just have a lot of history in this town that I don't think we you know the the church has the Paul River bell in it. You know,
how lucky can we be, you know, to have that? Did you know that? No, I did not. There's a lot of stuff here. I was just sitting here going, "Wow, what?" The Paul and it still rings. I mean, we we ring it at veterans um in during the veterans memorial parades and
things like that. So, it's active. We ring it for our meetings. Maybe, Mr. Chair. So, I'm not sure. Get people all confused. The 15. No, we don't. I'm not sure what the best thing to do is right now. You don't have your full board here. You don't have a quorum. We're not looking to vote on anything right now.
Anyway, um it was just basically our sentiment. I mean, when we first learned, we didn't have any idea of and I mean, again, it's co it was our bad in a sense, but we never received letters about it. Sometimes you have to create
the situation to fix the problem. So, I think that's what's happening. Yeah, it's fine. Just just for clarification here, I did find I did meet presented to you all June 24th, 2020
to go over village center core. Yeah. Well, I'm not sure if we understood that this wasn't just an FYI w with with impact. Yeah. Well, I I we don't need we don't need to we don't need to go back five years. I don't want
to remember five years ago anyway. No, that's but yeah, no, I remember uh but I I specifically remember uh I'm I'm assuming it was Mr. Freeman uh very vehemently argued me against this bylaw during town meeting um which could go
with any bylaw that we did in that period of time but but yeah no it's um thank you here I think we want to move forward well Mr. how we do it Mr. here. Uh Rob was first. Oh, okay. Sorry. Oh, I just want to ask
I'm hearing a lot about notification. Is there somebody that I don't know that that's something we can handle, but is there someone we could talk to or raise that to about getting them added to notification lists? Um we're going to have to talk to I don't know. We'll type in Paul. Good
question. The we could but they would get everything from ZBA to planning board. We don't have a way through open gov to so in my email I get every agenda from every board in town school committee every board. Mhm. Um, you can get that right now sent to all your
emails, every agenda, so you can see every planning, every item going to planning board. You can see the address. That's the easiest first thing us monitoring it as opposed to whatever bud. Well, I'm saying for really really
quick what can we do tonight? What going forward? I don't know how in our permitting system how we would add it, how that I honestly don't know. I think the building aspect of being aware of it is huge. Everything starts with him. Um, true. Okay. If I may add a postcript,
um, I've been in town for 44 years. Not to up you, Nancy, but it is I who finally sold the third after 13 years of the property on the corner, which included the first minister's house, which is a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Actually, I became involved
only because we purchased the property back in the early 80s. And again, and then I'll be finished. The we um championed the metal fencing in the common because what a number of the
people on on the whatever wanted to do was just put the granite posts with the metal and the granite post is that which is on the new cemetery. And that certainly wasn't in compliance, so to speak, with what was already there. So, it was great that it was duplicated.
Amen. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Going forward, next item of our agenda is the discussion of the zoning bylaw recotification. And what we had talked about is taking a few sections at a time, going through them
in a few different meetings as to not overwhelm us. And then uh back at the end, I'm I'm going to suggest we'll go through this tonight, read through it slowly, maybe highlight, write down any problems or things we want to talk about or
change, and maybe not get into lengthy lengthy debate and discussion if there's something. But let's let's see if there's anything in these six sections that we want to revisit. We have done 15 meetings with this already. Mhm. Plus a
joint meeting with the FINCOM and board of selectman. So this has been discussed a lot. Um we just want to go back over it again. There's definitely a few um items we know we have to fix. Like anything any humans do, it's not
perfect. There's going to be things that are wrong. I'm sure there's still typos. I'm sure there's still things that we can make better. Um, and it's a lengthy What are we up to, Paul? Is60 pages, 171, but that includes That's the That's
the red line. Yeah, that's the red line. So, um, it's still going to be significantly longer than our original bylaw. Um, so Paul, you have it pulled up. Page one. Page one. Paul, if if we want to just scroll through, we can do this as quickly or as slowly as anybody
wants. Paul can's going to slowly scroll through it. We can read it out loud. We can read it to ourselves. We can stop Paul at any minute to Yeah, Mr. Sure. Jim, just one of the things that I know we talked about in our other sessions
talking about this bylaw, but just for Bridget and Ken's kind of edification, uh, the lawyer that we had working on this over the past year and a half, one of the things that has changed, this initial kind of the purpose clause of the zoning
bylaw, um, and as he referred to it, the handshake of the bylaw, But from his inter review of case law and everything else,
this is fluff. Um, nothing in here necessarily gives somebody standing if they try to sue based on a decision that we make when we say the purpose clause says that you're supposed to protect the national
resources and you're not in this case. So, okay. Um, I think he said that probably every single time we looked at this because people are going, "Why are you changing the purpose of the bylaw?" Um, but that was something that he mentioned specifically. Nothing in here
is going to because that's one of the things that you see that I've seen in a number of decisions and every time a resident wants to complain about a property going in, they go to the purpose clause. Gotcha. Um, but it doesn't if they try and actually sue it
doesn't give them anything to stand on. They just get dismissed and waste their money on a lawyer. It comes before authority in the bylaw. So, it has no authority. Understood. How's that? Page one. Anyone want to?
Page two, section 1.4 to 1.6. Compliance required, interpretation, amendments, initiation of amendments. So, anything in red is what was initially in our bylaw that is being strucken out and replaced.
And Paul, we were saying some of this is just re moved around also. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of the strikeouts are just relocated paragraphs. Yeah, a lot of them are Oh, you want to go back to 1.6.2 just for I I think we've been over this
before. The planning board may recommend and the town meeting may adopt modifications to the pres provided they do not expand or alter the scope. So, you really can't
do a floor motion at all for the zoning bylaw. or for anything. That's how I'm reading that. Like we can't do a floor once we submit this to town meeting. There is no floor motion that we can do. I don't
know if that's I would interpret that's how I interpret it. I don't know if because it's in the new bylaw. It doesn't mean anything. But that's a that's not a new that's not a new correct. That's Yeah. So, we've just ignored it in the past apparently at town meeting. That's what I'm saying.
I think we've wasted some time. We should tell Steve Hornsby. Let's not. Well, he had one of the least successful floor motion challen town meetings that I can recall. But that was also expand or altered the the scope.
That doesn't mean you can't make an amendment. It just means that like for example, if you had a zoning change that you recommended parcels one and two, don't add parcel three after you've recommended one and two. That's an
expansion of the scope. But then it says as discussed in the public hearing and printed in the warrant. So it's saying you can't modify anything that's not printed in the warrant is how I'm interpreting it as a board. So somebody else could still make a Yeah.
Oh yeah, that just says the board can't do that once you've made your recommendation. But we've had it in the past where an individual board member has recommended changes at town meeting. So let's just add Did it put Jim's name right in here?
Section one. Anyone have any comments? If not, we can go to section two, districts. Right, we've just added that section about overlay districts, which wasn't there. And I've gone ahead and added the multif family mixeduse overlay district here and also inserted it into section 9
which we won't be talking about tonight but and then had to make all the changes to citations in that. You scroll back up Paul just to the end of that one. split lot discussion that was something that we talked about and we I feel like it it did change. Yeah,
we definitely changed that at least from at one point in the process we discussed it. I remember discussing it. I don't remember what we changed and again there was how many redline versions of this could it have gotten? I
I looked at about five of them and never saw that. But let's just highlight. I know we talked about the 30foot and a special permit from the zoning board of appeals. That looks like that's a new one.
Yeah. But yeah, basic basically if you have a lot that's split by zoning district, you have some flexibility if you get a permit from the ZBA. I forget what it was before, but But yeah, if we want to flag it just for
Yeah, I've just highlighted it. Section three, use regulations. We are not going to go through the use table tonight because I think that's going to be one of the longer discussions possibly. That's that's in two weeks. Two weeks. Prepare yourself. Got to separate before I come.
Yes. So we added that uh general discussion on accessory uses and and home occupations. Are we going to hit ADUs tonight or is that a different section? Different section. Different section. Okay.
I guess going forward too thing to think of is easiest best way to present this at town meeting. Town meeting it was pretty clear. No one knew what was going on. And by the looks of the audience tonight, we only have one member that wants to go through this, one member of
the community that wants to go through this with us. Even though everyone said I did take a picture of the audience just for uh posterity. Gotcha. Before we have Yeah, let me have a copy of that cuz I'm arguing with people on that. I'm just I'm looking for an I any ideas any
ideas going forward how we present this easily at town meeting. There's no easy way without doing what we're doing right now starting at page one and going through the whole thing. I think part of it will be a comparison of the sections that we see a lot of strike through and underline showing. Mhm. I have to work
on it still, but I think just showing a side by side cuz looking through like tonight, a lot of it's a reorganization and there were some additional things, but the great majority of this was moving it around because it was so badly
ordered. But I need to play with that. And if anyone else has some thoughts about how to show this, but I think doing the comparison, it it's it's not going to be easy. putting by putting pages side by side. Page one, new page one versus old page won't do it because
it's been reorganized, right? It's just how sections might have been changed, but we're just provide it. Take the horse to water and it either drinks or it doesn't. I hate to say it, but I think that's where we're stuck with.
Yeah. I'll say if we hadn't had the MBTA at the last town meeting, I would have been more forceful in talking about this at town meeting. But I picked my battle. Yeah, I was going to say you had you had the battle coming later. Yeah. Well, I want to spend time between now and the next movie ground so you don't get hit
with that again. Um, section four. Sorry. Yeah. Um, I all I did here was I had asked Mark before, but we never moved this. So, we're under dimensionals uh requirements. Um, the definition of yards had a lot of
dimensional things. You may recall like in here you'll see on corner lots front yard setback shall be measured from both streets. We don't want that buried in the definition. So I think this is a good location for this. I didn't change any Derek and Amy in
Hey Peter Derek today I went to I went to the Na's baseball b Peter. Okay thanks Peter. Thank you Peter. Now I'm going to go over the workout grocery shopping
permanent billing to me meaning sounds good. So I didn't make any changes to the definition but there's pasta salad pasta salad and bread delicious but I didn't change any of the language in here. Can we just mute mute the
conversation on Zoom please? We're talking night. Can you mute him? Yeah, I muted him. Sorry. I think he was talking to two meetings at once. He was. Yeah, he was. Um, so again with yards, I didn't change any wording here, but there's a lot of dimensional
requirements in here. That's probably more appropriate in this section than in the definitions. Okay. Even though that breaks the rule of putting all the definitions at the end. Oh, I kept the definition, but I removed the standard out of it. Oh,
we didn't even make it there without taking the definitions out of the I'm just kidding. Yeah. This is one under multiple buildings. Um, this is an addition I've put in, but please tell me if I should remove it. Um, this is just put in to try to
clarify a policy of residential structures within the village commercial zoning. I mean we say here under the existing language that you can do multiple commercial and industrial buildings in village commercial, commercial and industrial
uh and multiple buildings may be allowed for housing for the elderly. But what about you know duplex or single family or multif family within village uh within village commercial? I just wanted to put that out there to
see if if this helps clarify that or if that's just too much of a you know too much of a I guess what stops the an applicant in this case from just doing an ANR well it's just that this is uh
discussing how you can do multiple buildings on a on a lot right so you can do multiple commercial buildings can or you can for a lot line in the middle of it and put one building on each and that way you have Yeah. If you have your 18,000
or whatnot or you could but if there if there's a lot bigger than 18,000 but doesn't have the frontage, you could put one building behind the other one or Yeah, it doesn't have to. Yeah. I mean, it's just providing some more flexibility. I think it's good for commercial buildings. I don't think it's
appropriate for the residential buildings like like it's only in VCC and I so it's not in R60R are in what Paul's added here. It's actually only in village commercial because commercial and
industrial they don't allow any residential use. Well, you have hotels and dormitories are allowed and like I mean I I know dormitories do anyway, but educational uses, lodges would have dwelling like those are all listed in
the residential category. Yeah. Um but again, I I I had an issue with allowing what is it 15 something duplexes in the village commercial the other last month ago. I I don't think that's
I don't think that's what the village commercial is intended for. I I when specifically that many dwelling like residential units is not allowed as a cluster or like it's let's talk about it when we get to the use table.
But if if this is the wording that says it's in there I don't know if that's well that's just what I've added. Can can but also is there a table that's 32 A? There's nothing labeled A. Oh, well that's the residential. Oh, okay. Okay.
Yeah, that's the Okay, that makes sense. But we didn't, you know, we specifically put in the agenda that we're not covering the use table. Okay. So, I don't know if we And again, I'll I you know, I just wanted to see if that if there was a willingness to look at
that. Can I make a Mr. Sure. Yes, sir. Can I just make a suggestion, Paul? Just we can definitely talk about it and bring it up. I think for like the version that we look at, maybe have that in a comment, not in like the red line additional language so that it doesn't
go through around and we and it loses its red line as we go through this in the next while. Um, sure. Let me move it out. I just remember a few decisions in past lives where changes didn't show up as changes
and I ended up scrubbing through like line by line to make sure there were no I'll say poison pills in there. Yeah, you're right. Just to have like Yeah, this is a suggestion to add kind of that. Yeah, that's fine. Just from a
changes as a two-edged sword. Yeah. And this one gets a little tougher because some of the some of the form Exactly. That's kind of where I'm Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, I'll just flag it here. I'll just turn that yellow just so I
will remember to go back to it. Okay. Okay. And now, um, okay. Okay. So, I've highlighted this um cuz you know I want to thank Rob for going through the uh you know
re-reviewing town meeting um and there you saw the email uh he identified the comments that were made and one of them was by Mr. Klano that there wasn't enough protection of adjacent properties and so I started doing a word search of
adjacent and there are a number of instances where the bylaw you know discusses it u like in this case too if you're adjacent you know well anyway u this is these are your buffer requirements that still stay
in effect that you have you know if you're residential next to commercial or industrial you get the benefit benefit of a larger buffer than than if you were you know uh between two residential uses but there are a lot of and I recommend
anyone just do a search of adjacent or abutters and you'll see a lot of things that come up a lot of that terminology comes up [Music] uh non-conforming uses and structures
you will see that this is a large amount of strike through and underline. But I've went back and started looking. This is largely just a largely just a reorganizing of this section. There are some changes that are more substantive
such as um if you if you were to expand right now our bylaw says you can't expand a non-conforming single family use beyond 25%. Mark had recommended do it as 100. I mean, a number of times I've seen, you know, we've had uh, you
know, applicants, homeowners come to us and want to expand their house and there's some non-conformity and it's it's easy to get 25%. Especially on a lot of these small lots with small houses and I remember Mark made the comment that, yeah, with 25% nothing
gets done. And so, uh, that was one of the substantive changes here. What was any, uh, feedback from ZBA? Obviously going back to when I was on the ZBA non-conforming uses and structures is every meeting that's like Yeah. 90% of what they see, right? Um
cuz I mean how many lots in town are non-conforming? Probably most of them. Hundreds, thousands. Exactly. Um so this is a very important chapter. Um I would like to get Should we ask them tonight, but put it back in
front of the zoning board? Maybe just can we have them add it as their agenda item? We don't necessarily have to have them join us, but just to see if they want to read through it again. I don't see how that hurts anything. No, they they deal with this. Yeah. And Tom
was in the initial meetings that we had. So there's no downside to doing that. Let's do it. If but if we have to go through it again, he does, too. No, no, there's no downside to us doing that. They just had a similar meeting last week than I saw. So, uh, I'd ask
ZBA, uh, to review per relevant section. I don't have to do it in a meeting. I just want them to specifically know that we're going through it. We're doing it again and they had input in the first place and they need to have input again. I would like them to put it on an agenda. If for no other reason than we
discussed it, we're good. Correct. That it would be better for posted on an agenda. No one recorded this conversation took place. If they were working on something about special permits, I'd want to review it 100%. Yeah. And that's that was another change here too. As you recall, Mark made the
comment that a lot of things that we have been approving as they have been approving as variances and waiverss really should be special permits. So that changed that's a significant change, but it aligns with state law. I mean, it doesn't really affect
how they decided. It's just it's not a variance. It's a special but it's a special permit from the zoning board. Right. Right. So they'll be issuing more special permits once this is adopted again. Instead of it being a section six finding a 1.6 finding, it'll be a
special permit, right? But otherwise, I mean, all of this, it it expands out more um you know, more process, but at its heart, it's really no different. Have we had the new building inspector?
Has he had a chance to go through this? And he has. There's a couple things he wants to look at and make changes, too. So, I'll get with Ed and get his comments. Tell him to come join us. I could make him do that. Well, I cannot
do that, but you can ask him say hi remotely. But again, all of these things like permissible changes, all he's done is he's he's just organized it better. And there's a few nuances in there. And again, structures uh under structures
where don't increase by more than 100%. It was 25. Um never saw we never had anything about abandonment or non-use. That's new. That's a that's a big one. the two-year.
Yeah. Mhm. Y basically you lose your nonconformity if it's abandoned for more than two years. You can get it back if the board of appeals correct. Yeah. M well one one change um
so under 571 recon uh this just talks about reconstruction after a catastrophe um where it says reconstruction of said premises shall commence within two years after such catastrophe or demolition. Our current bylaw gives a year and you
can imagine if you've if your house has you know been destroyed by a fire or a storm it can take a while. It might take yeah you might not get your money within a year. So something you know they're going to be more challenges. So watch my neighbors go through that. Oh that would
you know we should do what we can to help them out. So that was a that was an important change. That's a positive. Can we obviously we've gone through five sections already. Can we add like a list
a tag on like all these things where like all the good things that we did in here? Yeah. Just to run through all of the highlights next to it. Get us some points. Like all of the like you want to talk about non-conforming structures and if you don't like that that's fine.
We're going to here are all the little things that we're doing that make sense. Yeah. part of your branding thing. I think we should absolutely do it. Oh, yeah. In all seriousness, I think if you said that as a joke, I'm going to repeat. No, it was not a joke. Okay. No,
it wasn't. It was It was more It was uh my jokes aren't funny, so don't start now. Well, your serious statements are I think that's really important. Oh, I did. I set myself up. Don't dangle a balloon in front of me and hand me a
pin. No, I I think that's a very important thing that these are a lot of this stuff is just there to protect people. Yeah. You want to move on to section 10? Not to rush everyone. Um yeah, let me scroll down there. There is
a big right on the first page of second 10 there, section 10, there is a big change. Oops. Uh were we just doing one through five tonight? And five and 10. Oh, and 10. Okay. Oh my god. We're so happy we were
reaching the end of five. Nine's a long one. Yeah. Get that roughly. Let's not do nine. Nine's all of the other random things together. Nine's its own. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, and there's our there's our MBTA. Um
but that's the end of it. Okay. So for so for me right on the first page 10.1.3 changing um for a building permit going from 100 ft to 200 ft is huge really for sheds
and whatnot. That's something the building commissioner should weigh in on. State code is 200 square ft. I think we we're more restricted. We always have been. Um, but it's a big positive change in my opinion. Some people might not like it. I don't know how I agree,
Edward. 100 square foot is 10 by 10 though. Yeah, it's tiny. Yeah, I torn down now so you can't come at me for my shed was bigger than that. 200 I have no problem with, but it's a big It like Tim just said, this is a big smiley face for me right there. I don't
know. Yeah. No, I I'm with you. Yeah, I like it. Yeah. I mean, I would think most people if they do when they think about it and go if it's it's it's more than 10 by 10 and if you know you now that's just one of the big things I want him to at least weigh in on even if he
just gives us a letter or doesn't want to come or whatever. No, if you just visualize 10 x 10 right there in the room and then visualize 10 by 20. I'd have trouble fitting my stuff in a 10 x 10. If I'm feeling theatrical, I'll map out 10 x10 on the floor in the
auditorium before the meeting and we can uh with tape. You see that section right there? I won't do it, but I'll think about it now. Why don't we just get two big pieces of cloth? We can hang them on the wall. No, that's 10 x 10. That's 10 by 20. No, they haven't talked about it. They
haven't talked about it yet. So, you wouldn't. Not that I've seen. I don't think so. If you have a long tractor you're putting in there, 10 x 10 gets pretty tight. Oh, yeah. I have a big old John Deere sign park. I got my lawn mower, the wheelbarrow, the snowblower, the seat, two seed spreaders. And again with this section
10.3, sorry, I'm skipping ahead of you, Paul. No, that's fine. I'm there. No, keep going. 10 three. Yeah. Specifically, zoning board of appeals. Yeah. Right. Um, yeah, I think that's 102 to 10 six.
Those were things that we should have Ed look at too because I think those were things that was discussed that like the process for him writing violations and getting it done was something that Mark went through. And quite honestly, if you can
just sell it to him that he's the fresh set of eyes out of everyone. Yeah. Really? Yeah. We've talked about that's going to have good. So I think one really positive thing about the change in this section is our current bylaw mirrors the state mass general law which
I think does a very convoluted thing which was it it melds special permits and variances together and they're not they're different in so many ways at least now what we're doing is we've pulled apart the variance from the special permit and the you know cuz if
you look at our old section 10 I forget what the section number is, but uh 10. It actually is section 10. Um it just merges with here's what planning board and then next paragraph here's ZBA and back to planning board special permit variance. And it's just it's always just
been a jumbled mess. And this is really straightening it out. It also starts to add some processes here that we do but the bylaw never talked about. like our current bylaw doesn't actually identify a special permitting process, but this does and it mirrors what we've been
doing. So, this blends together things from the charter to a few different sections of the B zoning bylaw. What about adding I I came across this today reading another bylaw. Um and it's
one of the very first things under a special permit bylaw. To even apply for a special permit, you have to have a letter from the zoning enforcement officer saying why you need the special permit. It's just something I ran across today
and I never had seen it before. Yeah. I don't I don't know. I mean, we we have standards that pretty clearly say if you have to do a special permit. I mean, Tim, what does our initial application for a special permit form
look like? I mean, isn't it right there? Like, why do you need a special permit? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's like we would use the intake. We talk about the use tables, the uh the different sections that like wetlands protection district. No, but like the form itself, there's like a reason for special permit. Yeah.
Yeah. So, unless you're looking for something that spells out they're looking for relief under section 3.2 and we could make them do that, but then it's another step that's probably not needed. It's just what Paul puts in his memo. I wouldn't have thought of it, but
I read it. So, let's make their meetings longer. Um, one of the things Do you want to stop? Yeah. stop at the criteria for the special permits because that's I actually do have a slide that we showed at town meeting. I don't know if we want to if you want me to pull that back up,
but it shows what your special permit criteria are now versus this. This gives us more teeth. Yes. Yeah. For me, especially number six saying specifically impacts on adjacent
properties. Um what was four? Yeah, that was one of the factors that was raised in that that feedback that saying we didn't have adequate protections on adjacent properties. This
this should make writing decisions easier, at least giving it more to more to site in the bylaw. Um yeah, and it added conditions that you should consider which the current bylaw doesn't do a lot of it right now. I mean, we're
really looking at what the site plan section says for your guidance. Okay. Some of these right here under 1055 referral. Is there another place like this where we could put historic district commission? It says there, you know, the
there's got to be somewhere where we could add in this bylaw where we could put Yeah, it says any other town, agency, board, or department for comments and recommendations. We should go ahead and just make them specified. Let me make a put a comment in here to
add question it. Yeah. Good catch. Also in the same night, I'm thinking in um not tonight, but one of the sections um in general regs might have it a place
too, but this could certainly be it. Paul, can you scroll back up real where that underline section was. Yeah. I don't know if um this is another place to maybe add that talk the historic district commission
1066. Yeah. Objectives under one. Okay. Whether it's under one or whether it's a number two or Yeah. As that is a does it does it belong here or does it belong somewhere else? But since we're saying
if you're looking here, please make sure you look here. It seems like it's a similar if you're looking here, do this. If we can find a few spots to add that into, it's going to be Yeah, for everyone. Doesn't hurt. No, easy. All it
does is add more text. Okay, I'll just work on the language. Yeah, this what did she say? The certificate of appropriateness. That was what she said. Yes. I think we were all pretty sympathetic to their point. We
just want to figure out how to follow it without getting ourselves sued. Their um guidelines are from 2007. So, I mean, I was we shouldn't we shouldn't judge bylaw. No, I was saying I was about to ask them what if they had a plan on updating and she said that.
So, I was said like ended up not asking. it. I'll say that when I joined the planning board, the planning board handbook did not exist in anything other than a scanned PDF and was not searchable, right? And I converted it via Oneote. You want to talk about the
colored pencil map too. That was there too. But yes, if if you if you imagine what optical character recognition in Oneote was like in 2016, it was not good. No, I know. I understand. But I was like pleased to hear that from them cuz I was going to
ask. Well, under decision here, we're finally codifying what the state says that you have within 90 days of the uh well within close of the public hear. Well, that's
Yeah, that seems wrong, right? Yeah, I need to look at within the public hearing. Let me flag that one. Like I said, we need another fresh set of eyes. We are getting to the end of it.
Ah, the do I was going to say this is a big one we've never had specified out before. Yeah. So, it's laying out the standards for you know what is dover and then our review. But actually, and this is I
think a plus is now we are saying confirming that anything that's do still goes through site plan review that we did not do that before. Mhm. I mean, I I remember talking with prior building commissioners going, "This is do
um building permit, but now this is saying we can do a site plan at least." Yeah. Okay. Because I think we have and that that complies with state law. That's sorry. It's complies with state law, right? And it's this has already been vetted is what I'm
saying. Yeah. Um, if we keep it to number two, that's basically I think there's limited things you can look at with Dover for site plan. Right. Right. And apologies for Bridget and
Ken. Dover amendment is special state law for churches, schools, education, whole bunch of stuff. So you cannot it basically means they can they can do whatever they want. I've never heard the ter what it says is you cannot apply a special permit. So MBTA zoning
technically fell under do actually did it's it's 43A. So well that it's it's essentially the same thought that you cannot issue a special permit for it. Yeah. And that's what this is too. But now we're clarifying a process and strengthening
it. Yeah, this is strengthening it from what we've done as a past practice. But if you want to build a church or a school, you don't get there's no special permit from us on any of it. Yeah. Um and we had one recent applicant where uh
there was question about whether they were a do use and that was mainly because they didn't tell us they were a do use. That was fun. Yes. When I got the email from the town manager saying, "Hey, they're suing us saying they're a do use." And I went, "Well, that's news to me."
Aren't you Dover? No, we don't want to be. Yeah, they he went he went, "Why are they saying they're a dover use? Was this discussed?" And I went, "No." So, another important addition is this request for reasonable accommodations. So, this is people who have mobility
issues. Um, our bylaw never included this. So this is u under fair housing act requirements that you have to make accommodations for people who have you know different disabil particularly mobility disabilities. So um so there's
a process laid out for that that goes that'll go through ZBA. Um but this is a positive. Doesn't ADA enforce that anyhow though? It it it does, but this now gives us more teeth because that would be through the
building codes, but now it's in zoning and here's all you need to provide. Yeah, Kathy, I have a question on that Mortif thing, but let's finish this first. That's it. Okay. So on the mortif there was a comment and
this you guys would have seen that in that feedback that the lawyer that you had had made um because one of the pieces of feedback was why are you guys you guys don't even need to do all this in your thing because the state laws cover it. Do you remember? Yeah, that
part and the lawyer had sent pointed back um you know he didn't challenge the state laws covered it that it's double covered but and I want to ask how true this is that if we've got to adhere in our local laws this empowers us to deal with it if we have a violation or somebody going against whatever this the
thing is I don't I don't want to be specific right now I mean if he said we can respond faster than the state agency I'll related to like like Rob we don't have a noise bylaw but the state does so if we have a noise bylaw we can act on it. Town staff can act on it quickly.
State it will take That's what I'm trying to describe. Exactly. State will take forever to act on it. We faced that multiple times and we set we have standards and processes to go through. I mean it's it's much more challenging like right now we're in a situation
because we didn't pass this in the in the u spring. um the state has their ADU bylaw or law in effect and if they come in they you know conceivably they could approve it under that. Uh there's some
other other requirements that went into effect that we covered here, but because we didn't pass it, this unmerging of lots that has come up actually and uh because we didn't pass it. Well,
yeah. So anyway, not having the standards can hurt us and it can hurt, you know, residents, property owners because it's uh sometimes often times state laws
don't have sufficient standards to to do it like you know that like well I hate to bring up MBTA but it just said here are the three things. So if we didn't do it, you can't just look at what they did and comply. You know, that may be a bad
example, but but us doing it, we put it in our terms as long as we comply with it as well, but we also then set up who who's approving it, the what. Well, the perfect example is what we just said about the Dover amendments.
Yeah, we could go with state law and not put any criteria of our own or we could add it to a site plan review. So why not add whatever teeth are available under state law? And we've seen it multiple times just we can have a
presenter to like tonight that just volunteers to do things that we might not even get if we don't have a site Sure. meeting. Yeah. So I've got some homework here. Um, I've made the notes on sections that I'll go ahead and revise them. So, our next meeting is July 8th. Paul, do you have
in front of you? I don't have it in front of me what sections we're going to cover then. Yeah, it's going to be the use table and the definitions, which is uh chapter or section 11. So, both of the fun ones. Yeah. Yeah. Way to stack that meeting. How's that meeting looking? We only have Re Old Colony
right now. Um, and Dean Street. One Dean Street. Dean Street's coming back. He continued to then, but I I have to reach out to them and see. So, I'm actually um on vacation next week, so um cancel it.
I am not cancelling it. No way. Uh-uh. I need it. Going anywhere fun. Uh yeah, we're still trying still trying to figure that out. But um but no, it's a pretty it's a pretty uh
short right now. Um, so good time for those two chapters. Yeah. Do you have time on vacation to read through all this and make the changes? Yeah. And we'll get, you know, um, like I said, I'll I'll make the revisions that we've talked about tonight and try
to find uh that historic district. Um, I'll look to see look ahead in the other chapters to see if there's other good locations for it. So, unless anyone has anything else they want to talk about for the recottification, we have one more item
on the agenda to talk about. I have a brief item I want to add to it. Um, you it was heard referred to several times in this and all and I'm not going to put it up and go through it because that's why I emailed it to you guys so we wouldn't have to. But I just want to say
out loud that this board compiled all the feedback that was given to the codification and we've sent it out to each other. we are considering it. So I just want to point out that that's the attitude and behavior we have toward public feedback. If people want to come to meetings and talk to us and stuff, we do listen, we
record it, and we do consider it. Paul is actually, from what I what got sent out, um Paul has already taken some of it and made changes that we reviewed tonight because of it. So if you want your voice heard, please come talk to us.
What I want to not avoid is people not talking to us until town meeting and then just saying one word to us. And I guess to that point, I did email some of the people who spoke, you know, uh at the meeting. Uh we've
put it out on social media, Facebook, uh next door. I've revamped or not revamped, but I've expanded on the website as well. um you know trying to make it put more information right up front about what are the changes and the
schedule and get people here. Um uh you know I realized that talking about the general administration stuff isn't the you know you can lead horses to water. That's all we can do. But I I
I did email uh you know again the people who spoke at town meeting and uh we'll continue we'll just continue to reach out to folks and it's their choice but yeah but I I've heard a lot of things said about how we engage the public and
all and I felt like they are not fair and I just want to point out here we are you know this is an example we're trying to listen so thank you And if anybody else has any other ideas how we can reach out,
bring it up because I I don't know of any other I think we're doing. How about How about How about I use How about Peter channel 2 American? Absolutely. I think we'll take it. Yeah. Okay. So, anyone anything else on the uh recation? If not, we have one more. No, let's move
on. That was my last item on our agenda is uh review and vote on draft decisions for a definitive plan DEF1 and special permit 21 from Birch Lane. Mhm. Paul, do you want to bring that up just so we can go over again? And we have everything. You've already approved it. These are
just the final documents uh for now. Um I've had town council look at everything. So we're getting sued again. Well, um, yeah. So, what happens is you have the, uh, certificate of approval and, uh, well, this is the notice of the
decision that goes with it. Um, you don't need to sign that. Eric has done so. Um, but we also have the special permit.
um the final draft of it um which I've included u in the document. I I don't know if anyone had any changes to it. Anyone have any comments, suggestions? We need another signature. We're all signed off.
We are Eric has signed off on that. So, we're good. And then what we do need your signatures on is the uh form C1, which is the certificate of approval for the definitive plan. Couple changes from when I showed shared it with you a couple weeks ago. Town council looked at
this. Um just a couple changes with shity. Congratulations. Um and the applicant has agreed to these couple of conditions. But um when it comes to the release of the lots, they they cannot release the two lots until
the infrastructure is done. And he thought that was fine. And that was really the major change in this. There are a couple other things, but um but uh pretty straightforward changes. So Robin had looked at it. So we don't need a
vote or anything. We just need to sign. I think it's just sign it. Uh have a pen you can send along with it, too. I do. I got one second. While we're signing, Paul, anything else you would like to bring up? Again, next meeting July 8th, right? After that, we're July 22nd. I
don't know if anyone's got vacations or whatever. We just want to make sure we have enough people here in quorum. I'll be here. I'll be here. Just don't meet next week. Anybody want to meet next week? Yeah, I'm free. Go ahead. I'm not. Paul, do we
have to sign something for a ser rep or is that Oh, um, yes. Oh, it's coming. Thank you for Eric has it. Okay, that's the unless he the chair needs to sign it and Steve has information to fill in. Yeah, you're set. Just Yeah. So, not all of
us, just Allan and Steve, correct? We can go home and they can stay. So, um, with Birch Lane, uh, keep in mind, so tomorrow we'll we'll get this stamped, get the special permit and the certificate stamped. that'll start the 20-day appeal period. Um I'll get the notices out this week to the abuters and
to the applicant. And then um assuming there's no appeal um after the uh after the 20-day appeal period um they can then submit the finalized definitive plan. The covenant
uh the covenant will address some of the other issues or conditions that you had added. So those will come after. So it'll birch lane will come back in a probably within a month or you know that
time period. Motion to second. All in favor? I I opposed. Good night everyone. Thank you.