##VIDEO ID:awpfVmW9Rwg## welcome everybody to the Norton planning board's meeting of Tuesday October the 29th 2024 again this is a hybrid public meeting so members of the public are welcome to participate in person or remotely uh to join online via video use the zoom meeting Link in the meeting agenda or the zoom meeting ID 6389 29106 there's also a dial number available for those wishing to join by phone meeting will also be available after for viewing on Norton cable access and Norton media Center's YouTube page for future sessions please feel free to email questions for the board ahead of the meeting to Brian carmichel Town staff whose contact information is listed on the meeting agenda so I'll with that I'll call the meeting to order here and just for a matter of record uh member Jim Arts is not able to attend this evening so but the rest of our members are all here in person um and that uh Town council's recommendation our last session just ask everybody to go down the line and state their names I'm Tim Griffin Rob wsh Steve ww Eric Norris Laura Parker Helen buou okay thank you everybody so I'll skip over planning board business and policies for now then we'll dive into that a little bit in our discussion point at the end in terms of bills and warrants if anybody would like to look at the one bill that we have for this meeting please feel free it is the Verizon bill for Town planner correct right um You should be making more calls toight okay and that's low and I don't think we have any minutes to approve at this meeting but more are coming y y so we can move on from that at this point uh the first item on our agenda is anr endorsement an-7 for zero Crane Street uh Advocate is Bernard Pate the owner of long belt home this is uh a area that we've looked at for previous decisions Paul did you want us to give an overview or did you want the applicant to give an overview or I can give a quick overview but Lee casanetti is here uh he's the he's with long Built Homes but um you've actually seen this anr back um a couple years ago and then U Mr casanetti had come in for a couple of special permits for an earth removal and a common driveway um this one U he is making some modifications to U the boundaries uh one of which was after the approval of the special permits an a butter notified us that her septic system was actually on his property and he was kind enough to make this modification to draw on that's parcel e E1 to redraw the the property line so her septic system is now on her property and then over on uh parcel a A1 and A2 uh the highway superintendent jarard Ferrero has been interested in realigning Pine Street there for safety reasons they haven't he hasn't received the funding yet to even do the the engineering study or never mind the construction but he had coordinated with Mr Castanet about reserving that and so he Mr Castanet is proposing um at least identifying on the plan that this this would be an area that could be in the future uh Pro provided to the town should we realign the road and that's A2 in the top left corner there yes okay I see A1 where's a two up here in the top oh up here oh it's a sliber one yeah I got it now y I was even looking at that as a lot so Mr cast is there anything else you wanted to add or you think that covers it pretty much covers it we um some of the lot lines uh for all the lots have been uh tweaked a bit um just so that when the town takes that parcel um every lot lot a would have been under 880,000 square ft so we realigned some of the Lots so that even after the taking all the Lots will be zoning conforming you can't lose Conformity by a taking but it's a lot easier if somebody's selling the lot and you don't have to go through a whole rig roll of explaining why it's not zoning conforming or whatever else so we just thought it was best to keep the mall zoning conforming after the taking so that so that resulted in some some of the Lots being a little bit readjusted uh nothing significant but just enough to get all zoning conforming with the appropriate for we got to keep the zoning board busy okay um any additional questions on this end to clarify the only two changes then is to give the ladies a little bit of land for the septic system and the sliver and to create that sliver so that the town can can ultimately take that um as as a part of the layout of Pine Street to Reign Pine Street in that area got to bend the Border a little bit to make sure that lot stays conforming same with here when they cut in a little bit I think they Twisted the b a little bit to add the square footage yeah so there are other changes Beyond those two but just the the adjustments to so if we have questions no okay anything we can do to fix a problem is good so be looking for a motion to endorse the an anr motion to Endor second okay we have a motion from Steve and a second from Rob so any for discussion on the motion to endorse okay hearing none all in favor please say I I opposed extensions okay and we've got the the big myars and the cop there in the copy do we sign now or will they sign later after the meeting um they need to be recorded at the clerk anyway right so we can sign we can sign at the end of the meeting and then you can let me know when it's ready if that works okay this with you to that's the oh thank you okay to check he buying the Lots right there the application the he has to buy the lot before can give us the [Music] land thank you thank you sir we all voted in your favor we shall that's a bad joke okay uh continuing on we do have a continuation of um just for everybody joining the call in case you didn't see the updated version of the agenda we have three public hearings posted on the AG the initial agenda um but two of them for 222 Mansfield Avenue and 257 Mansfield Avenue um both of them we are going to we are looking to continue to our next session because of a an issue with the noticing requirements um so we don't need to take those motions out of order now but just in case anybody was on the call waiting for us to get to them wanted to make sure that we said that um so the next item here is a remand for a special permit sp-1 and site plan 20881 for 237 East Main Street this is an application for a special permit and site plan approval for a 27,0 S80 foot Warehouse uh this was remanded to the planning board by Massachusetts land Court 24 misc 0076 with the owner applicant conine Capital Partners um and this SK continued twice um so last week we heard an update from the applicant as well as um some other parties um we made the decision to continue to review a draft decision and make any other comments or hear any other um feedback that we wanted to hear um with that I'll stop and uh say there anything from the applicant's perspective you wanted to add to that discussion or do you think that that covers it good evening Brandon car with thee I was just going to um we're here we did our presentation last time I know there was some feedback but we're with any questions I can share the plans if anybody has any questions uh we reviewed the decision um with Paul and we don't have any concerns with any of the conditions I believe we're all set so um we're here if this questions otherwise okay thank you Paul anything you wanted to add in terms of so just um that uh the initial draft I had worked on Town Council reviewed it made changes which I origin originally shared with you but also with the applicant they made some changes uh uh Town Council and I reviewed it and we don't have any issues with it so uh if you'd like that could we could work off of as we when the time comes we can work off of that draft sure I'll have that up on Zoom as well okay um obviously we'll go in we'll look at the decision again as this discussion continues um any questions from members of the board about specific conditions specific pieces of the draft that we wanted to run through at this point I got one one question real quick um the bus uh a bus space is that still being added there or available to the the proposed bus stop which is right on the right is there between that's between the two driveways okay so that's space will be reserved for that in the future if GATRA ever wants to go up there for a service okay and we do have Town Council on the on the zoom call here um Miss NY is there anything else that you wanted to add in terms of procedure or anything else I know obviously you've uh been working with Paul the past couple of weeks on this no I might just read my prior comment that I recommend you make you know detailed findings suppor of your decision to be incorporated and I wanted to just confirm how many voting members you have I know you said Jim isn't here this evening so do you have six eligible to vote we do have six eligible to vote I Believe Miss Parker did fill in her Mullen form already so correct I just wanted to confirm that to the appli yes no thank you I'm here if you have any questions but I don't have any additional comments thank you okay additional questions from the board otherwise I would go to public comment I know we um we had one um resident submit some materials and they spoke at our last session there there no nothing further i' asked if they wanted to say anything further or anybody else I'm seeing nods having review sorry having reviewed the comments that we received um from a member of the public and just having watched the last meeting I'm trying to pull up the Brian do you have the rendering that we got I can't seem to locate it in open goov the rendering of the proposed yeah what it look like what I was a little bit what I wanted to bring to the board's attention was the rendering that we got based upon one of the exhibits from a member of the public um of a like building and actually if you don't mind I'll share first that'll probably be easier from here let us know if the screen sharing doesn't work for you okay yep I see it okay so sorry one second apologies I did have this all right try and share from here so I know we had the board at the last meeting had talked about as long as it looks like the rendering everybody is satisfied with that um so I just wanted to draw attention to uh one of the exhibits that Orin had sent in so this is the El Island Building M this is by his estimation 72 ft from the road and this is a building of pretty much approximately the same height as what is being proposed here and I just want to make sure the board is comfortable I'll have Brian show the rendering there does seem to be a bit of a discrepancy between what the rendering looks like and what this building is going to look like from the road so this is 72 ft away this is what the building is going to look like from the road and I'm going to stop sharing if Brian can pull up do you have the rendering I do okay I think you stopped looking once you started sharing and then okay yeah so I'm concerned about saying it needs to look like the rendering and then when it doesn't what happens cu the rendering does appear to show a building that seems to be distinctly further set back from the road okay so so 72 ft is the closest point to the street it's the build point of the building that's closest to Leonard so and we can once we see it on screen we can make the comment but you're you're your your general point there is that the rendering makes the building appear further away from the roadway than it may be on the actual layout plan yes so the rendering was kind of dropped into a green field not necessarily cut off where the street is I'm assuming they use the their best efforts to make it look 72 ft away from that point but it it does look Market feels like it's further it does it's closer or further from further and I just wanted to make sure the board saw that um because going you know if we say it needs to look like the rendering and they start building it and it doesn't what happens then yeah so and maybe we need to be I have more specific I would yeah I would view it if you'd like to share please so there's just the clar there's two renderings um and I'll kind of and they are based on the site plan the architect brings our site plan in so there's there's two rendering so this one here um this is a view from Leonard Street I mean from East Main I mean from 123 sorry um and it's pretty much I guess the viewing point would be like right kind of where the right past where the right in turn is looking at this angle because you can see both sides so you're probably looking from a distance of you know 80ish feet cuz I think it looks like they're right on the sidewalk there but it's it's not the closest point cuz it's not you know tangentially right to they angled it around so you can see both sides of the building the other rendering here obviously the building's off more in the distance the parking is front this is from the corner of Leonard Street so this is this is further than 72 feet this is more in the the 200 foot range because that's from you know this corner here and that that view was to give the parking in front and the setback kind of from both streets so I think it's it's important to distinguish you know obviously comparing this rendering to a picture of a building 72 feet away it's not going to be Apples to Apples it's more comparing it to this one um which is you know if you were standing kind of where this tree was you're probably 70 closer to 72 feet and you're down the street a little bit so it's probably a little bit of a distance but I think this is from the the closest Street this is kind of more representative of what the building is going to look like the other one's from Leonard and I do believe the AL nyum building is ft tall at that front face CU there's three stories this building is only 40t tall it's 10 ft less than what El island is showing in Norton commer Center okay yeah but in in case we're not putting up a single level building we're aware that we're putting up a 40 foot tall structure right there so it's yeah you know it's a good it's a good check on our perspective in terms of what we the perspect the point to the right definitely thank can I just clarify something to the board as well on this issue this is robinin please if you look in the draft decision at standard condition of approval four it recites that the project shall be constructed in substantial conformance with the plan set entitled site plan review and notice of intent submission do you see that condition blue our business part dated September 8th revised through September 26th that's what the decision says about the construction I just want to confirm are the renderings in that plan set because have not been specific reference to the rendering to be added as understood thank you we can and we can confirm the the reference um if it is if it needs to be adjusted or not um the renderings aren't in our plan set so we probably reference the slideshow that we presented yeah we can at that yeah we can add the file yeah um and from a l to or other point kind of what happens if it doesn't that would be a Building Commissioner enforcement action correct Paul sorry if the if they wanted to change it they can come back to the board for a modification correct if they want if they if we woke up one morning and it wasn't what we approved then it would be a a Building Commissioner enforcement action not that the applicant would do that but from hypothetical correct correct and any change that they were proposing beforeand would have to come back before the board just curious what would the Building Commissioner tell them just they built the building build it to what was approved here did they tell them to take down some of what they did and put it up the way that was approved um that could happen okay fair enough I just question Building Commissioner has to enforce what you approve MH and it it he'll be looking at the plan sets that are approved and if we put in it make sure the condition includes the renderings then Y and the town has the teeth to do that mhm yeah and the elevations are all in there as well yeah in the plan set yeah okay okay any further questions or comments from board's perspective otherwise I'd open up to public comment okay um so if there's anybody in the zoom meeting who' like to speak I ask that you re use the reactions function in the zoom meeting and quote unquote raise your virtual hand and I'll know that you're looking to speak and that you're not just watching because of our entertaining television um otherwise I'll go to members who are here in person uh members of the public Mr seagull would you like to come speak to the podium I'm not sure what plans you're now looking at just for the board edification what I did was take a screenshot of what was on the the last meeting as when you spoke about it that the thing I had I took a screenshot of that I'm not sure if there's a different plan that I haven't seen that shows it being closer is that something that you're looking at what you arrest say I no no the plans there's been no changed to the plan since the last the rendering that they showed on screen was the same one that you had a screenshot of okay and that that is further than the than the other thing I wanted to um in doing this um I look closer at the the revised plan that you submitted and it showed a building height of 35 ft I was referencing 40 in my in my in my letter and I just want to be in fairness to you I'm not sure is it 35 feet or 40 feet in the the SE the latest uh site plan you submitted it shows 40 ft a setback and you reduce did you reduce the building to 35 ft yeah we dropped it by it's 35 it is 35 I'll just ask you to direct comments to the board oh I'm sorry yeah no I I don't think that you're going to get into a cross examination with the applicant but I W no I good habits I I just want to apologize if that's the case because I didn't see it the first instance and I don't know if your plans or your your decision is referencing the 40 or the 35 um but even at that point um my my argument is still basically that it's it's still 10 foot higher than what it was before and it's 40t closer than it was before as a retail one one level site um the one one last thing that I'd like to say is um basically you I've highlighted the objectives of of sighting and and the site plan and the special permit that's in a bylaws and the question that I raised is if if it's not applied to this you have an industrial a newly um permitted a newly zoned industrial site across the street so basically they have a height restriction up to 50 ft uh and a setback of 40 ft I mean at what point if you don't deny it now um based on criteria uh are you going to be able to deny it anywhere else in the town when they when they Max up their criteria and go to the side plan and I'd suggest with very few exceptions including the maybe the Village um uh Village Central where we we encourage people to go to the sideline very few if any bigger properties are anywhere close to that and the question I have is if you allow it here um will you be able to deny it somewhere else and If you deny it what criteria are you going to use to be able to deny somebody else doing the same thing in terms of building something high and uh as close to its its s plan as it can Cy and basically if if you looked at the material I provideed at least from what I I was able to see that's nowhere U it's not indicative of the rest of the sightings throughout the town of comparable properties thank you sure or I think when you're talking about um building elsewhere you just mean it's some totally different place in town like not just down the street there at L right right across the street yeah the industrial park across the street but you said what what if some you you have commercial property all all along that property as well all along East Main Street as well as one site that's actually industrial along East Main Street and I'm suggesting that if somebody else comes to you other than within the village Central which we want to encourage um what's your criteria for saying no uh are you going to be looking at this and you're basically say well we let them do it how are you going to tell them they can't do it well in a complet we're talking a completely different location right he's talking in comparison to other buildings that Main Street main thorough which is the criteria you you're supposed to be using uture hypothetical yes I understand that I'm just trying to make sure I understand it but the question becomes once you say you can do this how what's the criteria for someone not not being able to do it in the future and that's very different from the rest of the town uh I I would say there's a lesson to be learned here about as of right uses and the zoning of the industrial park uh warehouses are allowed as of right that is hindering any of our ability to just say no to a project they are allowed to build a warehouse 10,000 sare ft they're allowed a multitude of other industrial uses um further down the road there is another commercial area on the Eastern line they have some pretty big warehouses and on the Adar line there are some rather large Warehouse buildings over there this is isn't completely out of line for what's on 123 although I do agree I wish it was a a beautiful ornate building I I would prefer that but the town chose to Zone this land as industrial and they're allowed to do certain things there maybe that is the reflection that we need to think about zoning in the future or changing how much we allow in an industrial Zone as as of right that is how I would tend to it going forward the when another project comes up it might be in the commercial zone or Village commercial where we have special permit privilege we can choose to just outright deny a project they don't cooperate so that there are other standards that can apply depending on where else a project goes but this specifically the town chose to make an industrial Zone and they are matching their other buildings there and other industrial areas in town and they've kind of beautified it as much as a warehouse can be just just two things one um there's a new there's a new Ripple that that's come into into our town and that's the intitution of sidewalks so before we had all of all the properties we're looking at and I gave you the list of them down on East Main Street okay again it's East Main Street not throughout the town I mean I gave you an example of their own in in their industrial park one of the buildings I used just because I wanted to get access to a building to give you some sight view of it my from my own sense and that building is literally on on on their on the setback but that's an industrial park I would expect it to be there uh we're talking about a thorough fair for our town and the standards we want to set for that thoroughfare and all I'm saying is by by letting them go closer than anything we have right now that I found that's comparable that much closer I'm saying as a board what criteria do you from denying other people to do the same thing and does that comply with the objectives that are required I'm not saying you can deny them having an industrial park or having a warehouse I'm just saying you can you can make them push it back further I mean they have other they have other criteria they could put a flex building up they could do other things that's them I mean it's your duty as as a as a board as a town board to represent the town its interests and its property all though I encourage and I think this board has always tried to cooperate with Builders it's not your job to uh cover them for mistakes or cover the market uh when it's there that's not your job your job is to focus on what what your objectives are under the bylaws and all I'm saying is those bylaws give you the right to say this is not done we want to basically create something that's consistent with with the thorough fair for the for the purpose of of pres preservation of value with in that town the other thing was the introduction of sidewalks we now have sidewalks and we're introducing that throughout the town to make the town more walkable and livable and so now the criteria is not the driveby where you have to look from the street the criteria is now even getting closer and that that closeness in this site was something like in one point was 16 ft another was 22 and 1/2 ft closer so you're looking instead of 70 ft you're looking at 50 ft or so you're even getting closer because of what the town is looking to do so I'm I'm just saying you I'm not saying you have to do it I'm saying you have the right to introduce that Concept in having to evaluate how they build their warehouse not whether they can do it or not and where it goes true thank you thank you thank you Mr any further questions comments for members of the board here for the applicant for Paul terms of the process here anybody on the zoom meeting I'll just keep rambling for 15 seconds in case anybody wants to find the mute button just to weigh in okay so our actions here we if we don't have any further questions I think the applicants presented all that they feel like they may need to um I'm sure if they have anything else to say they'll pop up and let us know um otherwise our next action would be to decide if we want to close the public hearing and or move forward with a vote um so I I will go to the applicant just in terms of if they're comfortable with us uh closing the public hearing at this time or whether they prefer us wait for a future session uh close the public hear request okay for any questions comments uh motion to close a public hearing second okay have motion to close public Hearing in a second from Eric and Steve is there any further discussion on the motion to close public hearing again this means that we will not accept any further testimony from the applicant from Ab Butters from anybody else okay all in favor of closing the public hearing please say I I okay opposed extensions okay that's 60 um so we've closed the public hearing um does everybody feel comfortable moving forward with a vote on the draft decision or would we like to wait and do that at a next at our next session um we since we do have one member missing this evening that's a choice I'm okay to go forward the rest I'm comfortable good good I am at the mercy of whatever motions come up so you looking for three separate motions on the special permits you want would be three separate motions or how do you want to do it Paul can you confirm just the specific actions here so so uh it yes Allan you're correct so it's a special permit there's two special permit votes one for the building being over 10,000 squ ft or 25 parking spaces the next is for uh because it's within the Water Resource Protection District and they're proposing more than 15% in pervious cover or 2500 square ft next is the site plan because it's over 2500 square feet in 10 parking spaces and then we have our typical uh waivers for off well there is one about off street parking and loading uh uh on the driveway width and then the plant scale uh the usual one the plan scale waiver that never goes away yes okay so that's um so that's two special permits and a site plan correct with those waivers yes okay so was the first one again I would say the building size yeah building over 10,000 square ft in 25 parking spaces motion for that we have a motion to for the special permit for the size of the building and number of parking spaces wait a second second from Steve so we have a first uh motion from Rob second from Steve uh for this vote I will go down and just do a roll here just so we have everybody individually Rob all right Steve yes Eric yes Laura no Alan yes and I will vote yes that is five 51 Z and the next special permit would be for the Water Resource Protection District fall correct okay that motion okay motion from Rob second second from Steve again just get this done okay and I'll go through the rle one more time here actually no that'll be more another time but Rob yes Steve no Eric yes Laura no Alan yes and I will vote Yes so that's the special permit for the Water Resource protection is not approved okay so we will need to go back and identify the reasons why yes okay um then we should proceed with the site plan make a motion second okay and the site plan would contain the waiver for the map scale correct correct and the other waiver was for apologize um driveway withth driveway with um I'll get there I'm just trying to record these correctly sure sorry okay sorry about that okay so the site plan because it's over 2500 okay so site plan with the two waivers for driveway width and um the map scale scale so Rob that work for your motion with those waivers okay seconded seconded okay Rob yes Steve yes Eric yes Laura no yes and I will vote Yes okay I believe that concludes the action that we need to take in relation to this application um Paul we can reset on any next steps that are needed in our next session sorry Tim it was a little hard to hear out in Zulan did you take action on the waiver request yes we did they were incorporated into the special in the site plan oh you did the waivers with the site plan correct since they both can you just run me through that vote again cuz I it must have broken up because I did not catch that sure so yes I believe that was 5 to one with Miss Parker being the the no on that vote okay so those are all together got it yes since both waivers relate to the maps themselves gotcha and who were the two NOS on the special the second special permit that was Miss Parker and Mr Marshall okay thank you I just want to make sure I heard correctly it was breaking off the living okay thank you very much everybody so well you voted but you haven't actually voted a decision Tim so everyone voted the UPS or downs but well the special one of the special permits was Den was not approved by super majority so so do you want to just have the board authorized you to work with Paul you still have to file a decision to put a decision together how does the board want to proceed yes my assumption would be is that um we would work with Paul to put together a draft decision for the board to review okay so you're going to come back and review it in a meeting yes can answer question okay yes and I don't know whether the I can't ask the applicant this question because we closed the public hearing what the question I want to know if this was developed as retail as commercial not necessarily retail commercial as originally planned okay would we still have rendered impervious more than 15% or 2500 square feet of the lot my assumption would be yes based on parking requirements okay I'm going to change my vote that would be higher traffic and generally requires more parking per square footage I can't do the math for you on that in terms of the lot size you concur well when they originally came in a few years ago small yeah and and the original approval of phase one there was well over 15,000 square F feet within those three all all three buildings exceeded 2500 square ft I would like to make a motion to revote the special permit with respect to the Water Resource Protection District second okay we have a motion and a second to revote on the special permit related to The Water Resource Protection District motion second Is there further discussion on that motion from the board okay yes and we'll go through everybody again Rob no so just to clarify this is just on the motion to reconsider that you're voting now just the motion to reconsider yes consider the the motion is to reconsider okay and then we would revote okay I clarify town meeting rules yes thank you so just to be clear I'll start again R yes Steve Eric yes Laura yes alen yes and I will vote Yes so the motion to reconsider that vote was approved 60 making you work for it Paul uh do we have a follow-up motion so we'd like to vote to reconsider the Water Resource Protection District special permit decision or not decision vote um so it' be the same motion as the any further discussion before I go through the role okay Rob yes Steve no Eric yes Laura yes Alan yes and I will vote Yes okay so upon a revote that has passed 510 um so that vote has passed um so we will work I think it still probably makes sense for Paul just to finalize the decision and we can review it at our next session um and make sure that uh all the conditions are buttoned up and that everything is aligned okay is there any further action anybody would like to take and his application okay thank you very much everybody and we'll continue on with the rest of our agenda um as I mentioned don't think you need me for anything else so I'll sign off for the night thank you good I don't think so Robin thank you very much all right thank you everyone have a good night good night too okay um as mentioned previously um the next two items on our agenda we are looking to continue for our November 12th meeting uh because of noticing questions uh so I look for a motion for that for the next one which is 222 Mansfield Avenue motion to continue MSP 4 to November 12 2024 seconded okay we have a motion and a second any further discussion all in favor please say I I all opposed extensions okay and the next one is site plan spr -8 and special permit sp-13 for 257 Mansfield after motion to continue site plan sp8 and special permit sp13 to November 12th seconded thank you Eric and Laura for the motion and the second any further discussion hearing none all in favor please say I I all opposed extensions Okay so The Next Step last item on our agenda this evening is a discussion about our community engagement strategy as it relates to the continuing discussion about the MBA communities bylaw um Paul I'll turn it over to you in terms of um what you shared prior to the meeting uh obviously for anybody who wasn't at Town wasn't at town meeting um the articles relating to the community's bylaw were tabled uh to a future session um so whether they come back at the Springtown meeting or whether they come back as part of a special town meeting is still to be determined um but Paul thank you for sharing I'm not sure if um you want to just to walk through kind of a proposed game plan timeline for how we approach this in terms of community engagement and noticing and all of that to make sure that um um when we come through this process again that we do get the feedback from members of the community that we need okay and so this is a it it's it's a conceptual game well shouldn't say conceptual but it it's a game plan work in progress and I wanted to bet it through you all and see am I in the ballpark are there tweaks to be made uh this is just one approach to try to deal with this because it at the you know the as Tim mentioned this was tabled um which um should say a couple things uh immediately after um the vote or the next day I reached out to um the executive office in housing liable communities and told them that and um uh Town Council reached out to the Attorney General's office uh we haven't heard anything back from them but they are notified that we're we're tabling it that what we heard that night was let's try to bring it back back um but in in addition um when when the time comes I'll mention to I had a meeting last week with an organization called Mass Massachusetts Housing Partnership Mass Housing Partnership that funded serid work um they're considering a request for additional funds to help serid come along but um so what I tried to do um after the meeting is figure out first a a time frame of when we could do this and as Tim mentioned it's potentially it it's probably very doable if if things go forward to get it at of Springtown meeting potentially a special early enough but um and there's the potential that there may be a special related to other items so right and then there may be one later this year but I'm unless someone has a different approach this isn't going to get us there before uh the end of the year I just felt that after what was said that having a community engagement session was a real important step and with the holiday is upon us that's going to limit the window um of of when we can do it but we should try to do it before the end of the year and so thinking about in terms of the holidays we could have an event between mid November to mid December but I I've I wouldn't go beyond December 12th because then you're you're getting into the holidays people have events and it's just not a good time to do community engagement at that time and of course we wouldn't do it the week of Thanksgiving of course not because I won't be here either so um but so so then we would have a community event which I'll go into more detail in a little bit but after those event after that event you would be then working off of the feedback we received from the public looking at that and then honing in on the specific areas and parcels and then also honing in and revising um the language and you recall from the U from the amendment made on the floor it was focused primarily on dimensional requirements and density bonuses and we would need to look at that um and as the chair U uh uh had actually asked representatives of Select board and uh finance committee to start to join us uh select board was looking at it last week uh there was one person interested in doing it uh but they they had only three members so they've decided to wait another meeting and I've reached out to the chair of the finance committee to get a representative there so hopefully soon enough they will be appointed to it and working with you all can I make a suggestion yeah a joint meeting at some point okay if they want to have all this input why we going to just have one of them from each board maybe for the first one fine I think this should be a joint meeting before a time meeting yeah before they vote I I presented I presented to both of them prior to this town meeting and went through everything um yeah but the feedback and the feedback was kind of yeah we've watched all these meetings but we haven't said anything so rather than let's get all the initial approach was get somebody from the boards at one of our meetings rather than let's set up a whole new thing if we want to do a joint big joint meeting we can definitely choose to do that I think that happens after we go through the process that is what I'm saying before we vote on something to submit and just adding to that I think you know this isn't the first time the planning board has made a recommendation a town meeting and one or both of those boards have had a different you know had a denied it Monday morning quarterbacking no I I'm not I'm not I'm not editorializing it I I just think that it's important going forward that when this board is proactive and and you know leading in effort that we get those other boards who make recommendations to town meeting if they're able to I think it would just be beneficial to everybody and get everyone here in person yeah on the record yeah it's it's a different it's a it's a different you know when you're presenting it versus developing it it's just a very different thing and if you're hearing it for the first time you all had the benefit of working on it for almost a year we throw this out at them one meeting and it's tough it's it's it's tough on on everybody so I think I I like that I think that would be a worthwhile approach we'll see if we can make it happen but I made that note because then yeah after I honestly think that should happen pretty early on in the process because I I wouldn't want one representative from a board pushing us in a Direction One Way and then the rest of their board has a disagreement with it later on I know the select board was kind of divided I think fincom was a little bit divided on something like there's members in there that have differing opinions so I'd like to get all the opinions on board there prior to just one and that's also part of this by selecting a representative they're asking somebody to a speak for them and B represent we're talking about this community event they've now seen it more than once if they have feedback they know where to find us um there is no from my opinion there is no excuse at this point to not share their feedback did you feel they didn't give us feedback yes yes I did I actually felt like they did I incfort I have some I'm going to show a little bit that kind it I think that they gave no feedback prior to to us noticing the parcels which put us in a position to proceed with those Parcels or do nothing so I heard as yeah so again the goal would be once we get feedback inputs from the public then and focusing on an area or areas like just like what you did before you focus on the areas first and then you crafted the the the language with that area in mind so so my thought is with the open house it would be an open house it would be really a working group exercise where their primary focus is to identify areas to locate the district and a lot of those I think Rob has suggest made suggestions we know we had other members of different committees made suggestions all of those are on the list for review already this is okay well my mine's a little different from that but so again I'm just throwing out something and you all direct me to what we're going to end up doing I've done these exercises before and and I think we've had good luck in the past and other places I've been but ultimately this would be a DOT a DOT voting exercise and again this is just still in the working process but what I would Envision is a person comes in we could do a brief introduction don't know all the the details of it yet but here are the instructions but person gets three dots and they can put the dots on the on a working map however they want they want to put one in three different areas they want to put all three in one but I would also advise that we use maps to help give them the context so we already have the maps from from serid the the uh site suitability Maps but I would also add things like U the zoning map put in an aerial uh we would bring our laptops so we we have the assessor map so people can look at information to help inform them where they would like to see this District in addition um and I didn't spell this out well on here and I've done a little more research um in addition to the map we should also have poster boards for people to put on their thoughts that really aren't mappable but also find out more things like where did you put your you know where would you like to see the district and why because a DOT mapping is is good because it'll it's very transparent usually when you do dot Maps you usually SE see Trends you usually see a handful of areas where there's a lot of interest um and that'll be helpful because when we have our meetings after that we'll work off of that map so you all can see okay it's it's really people have interest here here or or it's it's you get a lot of responses to the person who writes I don't want this anywhere but the point is you don't censor them you you you let everyone and that's you know part of what the the uh the poster boards would be is they could say something like that and then you could check it if you agree with that statement but but the while the dot voting exercise is good we we need to do a comment board to dig a Little Deeper to find out more of the why why this area you know that sort of thing and so at the end we can see what's you know the people who've attended where are they seeing it and it really comes from them uh I think this is you know with you know again I think having those Maps the suitability maps and other thing the zoning map and so forth I think will help people get a context plus people know the town and we got to trust them and so I think after we have that map and and by the way everyone's invited right they so everyone has a chance to put their dots where they want to and you know you might see that people go question about the so when we present this so when we go through the map I don't recall specifically on the push and polls was the level of single family home of Butters in the push category was that marked by serid no that is critical coming and putting dots on a map to understand that and nobody but a planning board member is going to understand the push back we are going to get if we propose putting this next to a a huge single family area so that needs to be raed it's an it's an engagement data point it's not a binding recommendation I I get it but if all if we wind up with the majority of dots and let's say you know for example you know it winds up on a Dean Street where Dean Street I'm thinking of something more densely PL something in R40 I know it's not going to happen in R40 but something where it's more densely populated with a very high concentration of single family residents who uh Reservoir let's let's put it on Zero Man field a that wins the most dos they need to understand people need to understand the ramifications of it could potentially get shot down at town meeting because the residents rise up against it and that is very likely yes again like I said this is this is and unless you're this is a potential outcome that people you don't know the vital until you try and put a duplex next to a single family home yeah I I I would just say a couple things there that um we would have to doing a brief intro and then I think it would be great for you know for the board or some of the board members and myself to be floating around there answering people's questions but I think a point would be is where do you think multif family is most appropriate and bear in mind that it's not a special permit I mean you know we wouldn't say it like that but where are those areas and I I I hear what you're saying about this being like a budding that I guess at that point if if if zero Mansfield is gets a lot of votes that's going to be a det decision that you all are going to have to go try to go forward with or not you you know you're you're independent here right um but I think it's it will be important for people to weigh in and see it I mean the thing that's going to happen too is everybody's going to see it yeah and if they see it you might get people going hey I live in this neighborhood I'm concerned about that yeah so the other aspect that needs to be considered is there are people who are pushing for us to put it in an area that does not presently have sewer which I understand on its face and from a 100t distance yes that seems to make sense let the developer bring in sewer until we wind up with an Elm Street situation where they allowed to come in buy right put in sewer H we've got no leverage over them to defay the cost of signing up or connecting all of those houses along the sewer line that they're installing so that's another aspect that needs to be considered is if they're pushing for a place where there's no sewer they need to understand they they risk the Wrath of the residents who are along that line who are now going to be forced to connect and we have no leverage to bargain for an applicant to pay for it unless it's a private line right so if an applicant was putting it in they wouldn't be post connect but I hear what you're saying that might cause a decision town street they're they're not forced to connect unless your system fails same thing that we went through with Z Reservoir yeah that's but that's that's in the um bylaw not zoning but yeah a private line is G said it's ultimately if we are going to get community feedback in one way or another about where people think we should site this District we are going to get feedback that runs the gamut yeah of good idea bad idea and all those ideas will be subjective to each everybody right and then we're going to wind up going in front of fincom who are like Elm Street are going to reject it because they don't want to force residents to have to connect it it's so one of the things as what I think will be positive will be when when we when people arrive we want to get their email addresses because we want them to come to these meetings because again it it's we're asking them show us the area if you have a parcel in mind that's okay but work with the planning board later to work on the parcels because if they start going into Parcels that'll that'll just get Haywire real real quickly but if they just identify an area they they can do it and then then the details Works come comes back at the details get figured out at your meetings um but I think if they give you a clear enough area then that's a that's a pretty big or areas I was going to say that was one of my questions here because you know you remember the feedback of the school board yeah yeah about the impact of Solomon e yep yeah and um so to accommodate that this plan did strike me like it was looking for just one area like let's find a place to put it mine yeah the the uh thing with the community voting if I read it wrong I mistaken no no it it's it's that's why I said they could put it on multiple areas okay just to make it no no I I right just put multiple areas not one but at the end of the day I hope we see two or three areas with a lot of dots we can go okay it'll be a lot more challenging if the dots are dispersed every where but I agree right the school board for those of you who didn't hear were concerned that with with the proposal on TP at TPC was the impacts to schools particularly salmones because that's what that Sal uh uh that area is zone for salmon are we not allowed to take into schools into our decision making so why should we take it into our decision making now well it's just I I know your point yeah no no I'm it's true of any infrastructure on which Elementary School would they prefer the exactly which you want to go to LG which is smaller we'll or the yell which is ancient well they the actual ask yeah the actual ask wasn't to pick a school they wanted us to split it up they actually all eight of my they they did not like any of my eight suggestions or your suggestion either all of them the same reason they were contiguous and they want to split it up and Dot it in different corners of town so that it they if this does get built and one of the the proposals I'm going to have could L it could get built I'm not doing one of those state things and um you know it's got to be spread around town the idea is then if it does get built the kids are spread out over schools that doesn't put all the burden on one school that was what they raised one thing that needs to be if we were going to have a debate about where the kids go and how we split the parcels what is the actual capacity of the schools cuz is the somones twice the capacity they have 70% of the budget let them see you that open I think they can also redraw those lines too three times the size of the of the um North school anyway there's never going to be a perfect area something's going to have fa tale apartment buildings were're worried about the impact on schools Al the the JC salones right now takes the entire R40 District which is zoned for multif family by special permit right right now and the the challenge with with projecting School enrollment is it it's a moving Target and don't we have school choice can't can't we just redirect them to a different school I it's I I can't one we're just Rob's just bringing up a point that a couple members made that they would like to see it the the district yeah in different parts of town that's that's all and that's something that when we come back with whatever we come back with something that we can explore is the regulations allow for a certain amount of it has to be contiguous and the rest can be in these size spread around so yeah we can evaluate that in to use that or not use it however it makes sense for the areas we choose to look at I just feel like we need to come up with a waiting system for the criteria well you did mean the but in terms of like the Su the suitability analysis was the school's you know desire to split it up into three Parcels is is yeah yeah how does that weit against sewer for example low yeah in my opinion low I'd like clarification about what the school can do to fix that issue if they can change the district or if they can just tell the us to pick up students go there right I I think if we're looking for a solution that makes everybody town meeting happy then we will be here then we we will be great which is why let let's prioritize the criteria I think wasn't another for town government okay that's a that's an interesting point yeah so maybe that's something we work on is what what additional criteria should this board and we'll say planning board plus with the other reps look at that we didn't look at before um but like Tim said no place is going to be perfect they're all gonna have but I suggest that prioritize their criteria while I think that's a wonderful idea you're just giving them another thing that everybody can have a divided opinion on whether we use the great criteria yeah oh all over the place just saying that's a valid there is but I I actually prior it's a good idea but it just I I know this public we will run into that have to share our criteria anyway there's got to be some we have to share major ideas that we can push and pull from like is it a main road or is it a back do we want the housing on back roads or a main road I think we can make a pretty clear decision about that for the most part we don't really want to TU it down to dead end yeah like that kind of stuff at some point I actually have closest to retail so I I don't really have anything more to add from a path forward here broad strokes this is the community input event plan that Paul is proposing so in terms of if we wanted to do something in mid November to early December we probably want to give direction at this meeting about how we want to proceed as a board to PA so one more question how can we reach out more can we use Norton alerts what else can we do to blast it out there what do we do for that's my question like how do we incentivize the voters to actually show up they did show up with Village Center Corp Village Center Corp had decent turnout yeah yeah of course they were they were so so um of course once you get to that point of selecting Parcels then where it comes out again I mean notices go out this time around before for the event um you know can we haven't flush this all out yet but once we get a direction then it's go time on my part but I want to make sure just even internally I want to invite School Board I want to invite Water and Sewer Commission invite to you what are you thinking about doing it I guess is the next question where do you want to do it crane big room don't let us use it I want to see I haven't seen the big room yet that's my last point for tonight that's my last point for I honestly like the idea of having all the town Administration from different boards kind of get on and give some input as a group also just aside from the residents I I'd like to get the town working together on this we can we can say we can give a direction that Town St staff gets dots too that's that's a choice that we can make I think it's important looking at their at their purviews from whether the town manager the accountant says yeah yes this parcel has more potential than this let's not use it let's put this parcel is underutilized so that's a that's a again that's so do have one question here because we would be doing all this I see there's a bit of work involved and stuff that we have to get set up for and all that and then I you have serer involv too okay so where does how does this all get paid for great question thank you um so I'm hoping Mass Housing Partnership pays for it uh they couldn't promise it because they actually gave us two grants to with serid in the last two years um and they're working with a number of communities like us now who are they they've compartmentalized those like us who tabled it and and those who who dropped it so if not I have a rough ballpark uh what Ser Serpent's role will will be focused on the compliance modeling and GIS work they're not going to handle they might be able to assist with Outreach but that's that's my shop um so I have a small budget um probably wouldn't be enough to pay for it but I'll talk to the town manager to see do we have any excess money we're only talking in a ballpark of about 5 to 10,000 for serid we're thinking about just printing out a few large maps of the town and just hanging them yeah yeah I mean I think and we have those I I I'll need I'll need their I'll you know I only have a a a snapshot of it I'll need their files their PDFs or jpegs for it but can weuse the master plan ones sorry reuse the master plan ones yeah we could use I mean we'd have to figure out what from the master plan you'd like board would like thinking you know of those sessions where we did go and I forget he's he's looking for the maps from their 3A presentation where they put the to De sorry got it I a question here because you were talking about putting M maps on the wall these dots I assume these were electronically no it's it's old school we don't have that capability they would just beat dots I'm going to be honest it's actually better to have the people in person that do it then do it electronically anyway yeah it's much better as a community exercise everybody can see what's going on yeah and I know everyone can see where people have put dots they can start talking to each other you know why there they can see someone else putting a DOT on the page and not sit at home themselves trying to think about it well we want people talking doing it yeah we want people talking and and you know they might say well U you know again I think we would have value as you know be able to answer questions that they'll have about it and um so yeah so we just be putting dots on a okay what consider something here though this is I thought pretty involved you know in getting and all that um as far as getting feedback was our problem that we just didn't reach out to the community and get feedback or is it because that we ignored feedback that we received oh God we didn't do that no I think we did no well okay so so we did um so when the the parcels were selected we in addition to doing the usual a butter notice so we we' notify the property owners and then Property Owners within 300 ft which um you know we did that but prior to that I actually I sent a a letter to the property owners to let them know this was coming um just said if you have any questions let me know I never heard well I heard I heard from that one gentleman who spoke um and then I also met with a few I met with um at the time um so I met with TPC they they didn't have they like okay this isn't this doesn't affect us and I also met New England ice cream they had questions but then they said well this doesn't affect us you know they're planning on doing an expansion which you'll be seeing soon not not the one you're seeing in two weeks but later on so we did a little bit more than usual and we didn't hear anything okay not from those folks that we targeted this was actually a Butters whereas now you're saying let's get The Whole Town's feedb though right because this was this was a butters for your public hearing so we're we were but this is a different event this is this is a community engagement event it's you don't you won't even be calling a meeting to order they're going to come in and it's it's an open house on that note if we're all there how is that not a meeting well well we can put it we can put together an agenda that could that says that you might have an a quorum but no action will be taken so we we can get that covered just like what we're doing uh for bossk's work it's the same thing we'll have to do it for all the boards so you can do it you can do it and so um but so this is a different thing than the than the um than when we noticed for the public hearing let me quantify why I said I don't think we listen to feedback as far as what went on last fall I can't speak to that at all one way or another because I just simply wasn't here but since I've been here I've watched this go before boards who gave us feedback um the school board gave us feedback and all that and I feel like we just ignored that and wanted to meeting anyway it was after it was noticed none of that feedback came before we noticed the parcels so was past the point of no return yeah we saying so you're saying you did not have the right to take that back and not put it into town meeting that was not I could have sat there and done nothing and let it be not moved as I expressed in the meeting I did not feel that was the appropriate course so once we hit a certain point a date we had no we couldn't switch we couldn't we couldn't pick new Parcels Beyond a certain point no we couldn't pick new Parcels but I felt like we should not have gone forward to town meeting with that after two boards did you're going oh they were split but they did vote not to support it and they did they didn't have enough votes to support and the school board wasn't voting but they were on there objecting a lot they objected all eight of my ideas too you know and um I I guess I do try and listen to them too um well this will be an opportunity and again if this if if we want to do more um again I would say yeah I I I try to keep it simple and I would say you know I want them to come and participate and then maybe there's opportunities for further collaboration I mean that's all that's all up to you but certainly for the boards that make a recommendation a town meeting you closely with them what are you thinking for like time and day that's going to be around your how many people are you going to get what are you thinking for time wise um I I would do it about 6 o' but as an open house I think the good thing is people could could just come in and Dot vote and write on the boards and be done quickly but so you could do six to n or something give them a window so they don't have to be here to set time right okay yes right big part with a meeting you have to show up and and I don't I think the Public's typically used to that here CU we haven't we haven't typ we did it with the master plan um but I think we could I think we could have a large enough window I'm not sure about three hours cuz we're all there but maybe if if you all want that we we could um but I think giving people a chance to come in and and we'll probably find that people are going to want to talk to each other about it which is a good thing and we would just say look if you guys have a good idea write it down the only thing that matters the only input we'll capture is what you write down put it in your words just make sure it's legible you know we don't want to transcri you know we we don't want to take notes from somebody saying I want this unless there's some impairment that we can you know we can help them out with but uh yeah because I came in here tonight and I I still have it I was going to put up an option nine you know my went through 8 where we kind of the school you know that they got shot down too um um and it would be a far simpler thing for us to do and I actually do think it would fly for people and it's a good meeting in the middle it even allows that the state is going to get some what they want here so it's a you have a partial it's a partial specific recommendation that you're looking at okay um yeah we can look at it I think and then after I think the board can make a decision about how we'd like to move forward in terms of yeah the community engagement outside give me a second got pull it up I wouldn't have a problem with the idea of like I mean I've offered Parcels Rob's offered Parcels if anybody else wants to do so I wouldn't mind the idea of Kevin O'Neal s Parcels I wouldn't mind showing the ideas also that have been you know brainstormed at the meeting like this is what I think our options and if anybody agrees go ahead and stick your sticker up there but otherwise pick something else but you know it might not be bad to throw ideas on the table either my thought on all of this and and I think we we could do something like that I I just want to give people more of a a clean slate and have their own thought with it but let me make a note I'm going to make a note about that um you like Laura said a little earlier like we're all on the board we pay attention to a lot of things but most people don't pay attention to the zoning quite so much or where single family homes are where the density is and what specific rules we have a zoning map there that can that helps out a lot for sure yeah yeah we that's easy enough to do yeah I just need to think about that I I certainly want people to who've given us their options to map it I what I just don't want is someone biased by it I'm not maybe not saying that correctly I'd just rather see people come in and where would I like to see it and you know but if they go oh so and so is suggesting that maybe you know they know what they're doing I'll and that that may be fine yeah I just yeah I think they need to see it in the context of kind of the the serid maps where we have sewer zoning and the makeup of the ab Butters I think makeup of the meaning are we single family multi family the zoning map should pick that it doesn't show it doesn't show what the okay so maybe if we really on the gis they have land use yeah and that has a whole map with whether it's a single yeah hopefully we can winnow that down cuz that gets into yeah other things you could just put the big G I want I want to Second though what she's saying about paying attention to the abds all eight of my suggestions I actually drove to those places drove around look at you know so tried to visualize it didn't just kind of like go around on the map and I'm more concerned of a baray road situation no I understand I think Bay Road's off the table already in my in my mind we don't know where people will put it right but it's I was surprised that they didn't um already Scenic joke at me about not changing Parcels for a zoning article after I started talking because they feel that they were improperly noticed for a town meeting article five or six years back what it's worth I completely understand why you didn't just change on the fly yeah I I for for what it's worth I think Tim presenting it at the town meeting even though I didn't agree with it is a good idea as far as presenting that the town was following through with the state mandate and the town I mean he presented it and gave everybody the option he said basically feel free to not vote on this we're just presenting it as as an Administration basically to stop us from getting sued but Rob's got thing up on the screen here so let me just get yes some of the parcels are the multifamilies that we looked at and see yellow and let me show where they I'll this first this blue um is something I looked at and passed on and it's for the same reason it's a good example of what Laura is talking about this was one I looked at it because it was brought up to us in the feedback people said why don't you put it over there they talking about the gym that's in trouble and the Housing Development behind unpleasant yeah yeah yep and if you look right behind them there's actually they're upscale homes too and I can promise you that wouldn't go over well you know this is what I mean I went and drove around said no we shouldn't put it here so that's the blue as a spot just to show I did do some look into it since so many people were recommending it to us and did not personally feel it was a good choice just can can I just I know about add to it but in that area um I'm fairly certain attelboro has sewer pretty close to Our Town Line you know the the the new subdivision yeah my understanding that's on sewer not sure that's a good or bad thing for the town the one across from the post office you mean right uh but I can get that confirmed where that is but on that area just over past the Dunkin Donuts there's that subdivision that came out of nowhere like three years ago yeah yeah yeah yeah so I believe that Seward I'm I'm friends with one of the abuts to that subdivision who was very disappointed that their conservation land that they were surrounded by turned into that so Paul it seems like we are leaning towards having the community engagement um let's hold on let's we have this thing in front of us let's go look at the three in front of us and focus on one thing at a time this is one thing at a time because is that isn't that our next step is to say what is our next step sounds like we are going towards Community engagement right and and the form we're talking about or am I incorrect I think that we are I think's got too much I'm not talking about I don't want to talk about details at the at this very moment my question to you Paul is how much time would we need to set something like that up I'm going to have to dedicate a lot of time to it because I think it it's especially if we we need to do it before the end of the year because you know time you know how with town meeting our our time collapses in order to get everything done in time right so it'll be done in my work from my work perspective yeah I have about four weeks worth of quality time left with me in my team but that's why I'm asking you like if let's let's say we're like yes we definitely want to do this we don't have all the but we definitely want to do this what's the earliest you think we could actually make it happen I'm I'm thinking early December early December okay and if people want to volunteer to help feel free to reach out to me I mean you know yeah one of the things I I do want to do when because we're going to have to really get the map the mapping sequencing right I want to do a test run with staff nobody who knows anything about planning cuz if they can do it so the entire town but you know I I don't want to have you know Nick working the Building Commissioner working on it because he he gets it I want to make sure that someone who has nothing to do with planning can look at the instructions look at the map and go oh I get it or I'm not getting this all right there's a bug we'll fix it yeah that's Bill G he said he doesn't no zoning I want him to show up I want him there I want other people go over Rob's map somebody that's made Maps I get frustrated people don't look at him well I was just fine it's like we'll go but I bet you I presentation yeah so I see the yeah the three areas I took and I'm going to expand you know I I zoom in on them in the next slide um I went through the this is after the school board said you know we didn't like your eight because they were all contiguous um I think remember some of my AGS there were some areas where it's was like ha that'll never get built and I disqualified all of those because trying to do Norton first and that was how I was thinking it was still that doesn't mean we can't think about the state's need second just Norton's have to come first in other words a difference between the people were going around and forget the way put it they all going the state and I don't think that's the approach we should take either um so I looked at which ones was it really not a bad deal for Norton if it actually got done if the state got their way on those lots and the strip along 140 um that's all multif Family Apartments already MH and so that's why I highlighted that um and that covers some if those buildings got tore down and they put up new buildings with the sort they're talking about um there'd be a little more density so the financial thing comes in a little bit but not as much and those that is not a bad deal along that stretch especially with the first floor commercial um this next one and going over to the um right side of the map little Arrowhead shaped thing that's the Glenn and again um The Glenn I don't if you know anybody been there have you ever been in those buildings they're not in good shape if somebody came in and took that down and put up all new buildings of I mean that's essentially no disrespect to people that's essentially a low income housing project already um replacing their old building with new buildings would not be a bad thing for a lot of people and it does it and they may not be able to afford the new buildings but that's a secondary question well this is supposed to be low income housing yeah I know there's some double talk there but I'll go with their story yeah um and then the third one the tiny one down there it's a lesser corner it's really down where the uh host uh was it the Residence whatever it's called extended the Mig facility whatever yeah um and I'll I'll zoom in but you see where that's located why don't I just zoom in because it's easier to speak to so going to the next one isn't that in the industrial park yes it is it well it's off to one side of it but yes why would we ever want to convert let me talk um so let me um go again you see the first one here is this line here um apartments and you see the Glenn's the one on the left the middle one is right there why would we want to because this is the type of people to live in here in these things will be warehouse workers drivers a lot of that type of thing and there are tons of jobs if you just you know if I would take my cursor just go that way we all know what's that direction right but we're giving up Prime industrial land which will bring in a ton more Revenue as industrial than residential well I didn't feel like the where The Host Hotel sits was anything we were making a lot of money off of right but if they decide to sell and sell it to a developer and then it becomes residential it makes L kiss okay there's going to be many opportunities to talk through this we don't need to pick apart any specific thing well no I I actually I welcome feedback so actually thank you for what it's worth I I actually want to hear things like that um I will consider what you're saying there because we do net this is the Net versus gross we do net more taxes on Industrial Lan um glad we're right recognizing that um the one up here though we would just be replacing multif family with multif family and here multif family with multi family um this one here right now it is really residential I mean that hotel is basically a residence and so it was going to be to try and put more there and the proximity of the jobs I thought was a a bit of a thing there um let's assume if the whole by talko let's assume these are all decent hardworking people you know where I hear all the things on character but let's assume they're all decent hardworking people that want to you know they'll get take a job and doing all this gives them away I mean that's walking distance and stuff there's a lot of places in there that hire that although I respect the idea but I I would imagine most of the people that live there if it was multi family probably don't work in our own Industrial Park just because most people that work in town travel in General fair enough I did have other these I thought were the top three I could easily come back with more cuz I've done a lot of research on this in the last month or two the wetlands look like on the industrial site um they're okay here they're they're over here the reason I cut that off and didn't go down the corner is because that does become Wetlands um I checked this land out and you're okay if we needed to in a couple spots you could move that line out a little bit like that easily cuz we already covered that we can do that I get wanting to replace the Extended Stay just because of you know how it's been over the years the problems it's had but I the industrial park it no housing is ever allowed in the industrial park it it's it is somewhat out of place I don't think everybody would work there but I I I I appreciate the idea of it I mean it's no fair enough and but we also we get a special tax off off of um hotels and motels also okay Services we do get an extra tax revenue from that too sort of like the marijuana liquor type thing okay on slide three is that other Parcels Rob on the third one um slide three is the Glen no the the next page sorry oh oh These are Parcels I I passed on um I had this ready in case somebody said what how what about and one of them is the if you if I zoom in on I don't think I can um see if I do it this way this is what I was talking about see all this right back here this is the gym and I actually drew the map this way cuz I wanted to highlight the trouble and this was the area right here where I'm circling which we got a lot of recommendations from we were getting them right in the town meeting people were asking why we didn't think about over here um what I have circled here in red is why I passed on that that is all single family homes right there okay this is why you wouldn't include these were ones I admitted for concerns I just in threw them on a slide because I thought people would you know somebody might say what about and there was a lot of what about that one I just showed and that's why I was going to show why not is because there's that whole group of upscale hom you'd be putting it right up against that and then the other one I thought we shouldn't count that's the our favorite property on Elm Street okay um I didn't like the idea of including that in the map at all I'm not even sure it wouldn't get shov back on it's because of the status of l well I don't think the fact that it's a brown field would would that's come up but I don't think that would be a a reason not to but I've just felt like this sits in the middle of a neighborhood and this district has to allow multif family by right and this seems like a pretty sensitive area to give up your special permit Authority I yeah I had a different concern with it anyways and yeah we don't need to argue this cuz I had already admit omitted It Anyways um I was worried about the land but um I was I don't see Elm Street developing much further anyways I I don't beyond that part um the reason that got suggested a lot a lot of people like oh yeah let something build there again people are trying to put it somewhere where they just think it isn't going to get built because a lot of people believe Elm Street um just will never get built or it will get built might not put it there but I would I'm like well certainly again I'm not a voting member but people have to understand there's no special permit here it's site plan approval is a discre non-discretionary approval but we don't have to go on about these because like I said I'd already rejected them and I can tell you guys are like yeah rejected so no we're agreement yeah um I think what you is pretty good good um I still think we should consider the the one on the far right and the far left where we're building over that because there is some benefit there and um you notice I am not trying to this is why I didn't do the red mil de remember that one I that'll just never get built yeah it's yeah I'm not sure if the I had we hadn't done the due diligence whether the um whether there's a deed restriction on that from the age restriction or not we'd have to get through that we could I just don't I I also didn't want to approach this in a spirit of screw the state you know trying to just pick something that just we knew flat wouldn't work for them um I was trying to find areas where they actually could get their way a little bit without it being a hit to us yeah quite so much and and I think still think these two areas do qualify somewhat The Glenn and the strip up along one 40 if you don't like the one in the middle we can certainly do that I have I think you guys know I have a bucket of res search at home now I could have easily SWA in something else there and if you and the reason I was suggesting this is because if we could come to an agreement on something like this we can go forward you you know you some you can make the end of the year and this is a lot simpler and I don't think you're going to get pushed back from the town on what I've put here I think that this would get voted through I think yeah I mean ultimately this board can choose to do what it wants to do if we wanted to try and do a push to get something done in the next 8 weeks um that would mean basically I have have the timelines in front of me but choosing parcels and noticing at latest at our next meeting without kind of having that some kind of the thing is I've done a ton of research but you guys haven't had that chance I'm just coming tell you about it now so no yeah to Steve's Point that's kind of rushing now and I think I think we should all put ideas on the table and really think it out I would not mind if more people would kind of do the type of investigation like I I did and see what other ideas could come out there could be something I missed yeah I think I think maybe this is me because I'm going to be the one standing up at the podium here I would like to I think having a community feedback session having this we came to town meeting this was table this is what we did to get everybody's feedback to bring what we have in front of you here are all of the things that we did this is what we have can I make a we heard your feedback we listened and this is what we presented I've got a motion to give Paul every ounce of authority he has and money available to go forward with the community session and get the ball rolling as soon as possible seconded we have a motion in a second can can you allocate funds to me too how much you want Millions done I'll I'll hold for further discussion on the motion terms of the motion is basically to give Paul the green light on the community feedback as he outlined so what you're saying and is can any further of what I'm talking about and just run with this idea it's not can no I I mean I I think this is there's more involved than just you saying we want these three Parcels now I got a bunch of parcels to present you got pars and everybody else your idea it's a good idea agree with half of it yeah I think it's honestly it's not bad and like the Glenn proposal the way we had it going we were adding in retail into our thing so if you over it on if you laid it on the Glenn you'd be adding commercial uses too and that's fantastic that's great for our tax revenue you'd have a little bit of a village thing over here they are a little bit out on the out skirts away from everything but I I still think regardless of how good some of these are and I agree with like me this one I I advocated myself we should still put them on the table and have a community out because I took your feedback well I appreciate it I mean that's that's the teamwork part but I think we all I think a community event and putting all out and taking our time with this is what is right for the town I don't think we should have rushed into another meeting we just got that one happen Okay but I was the reason I kind of jumped on that and said let me try to come up with something from that feedback was to take seriously your concern about doing it by the end of the year and coming back with something we could possibly work with yeah and I tried to moderate that a little bit at town meeting kind of as fall like the real critical moment would be when the next Grant timelines come around in May Q2 yeah so obviously we're not the only town in this boat we don't expect on January 1st the state to show up at a wrecking ball the town hall metaphorically I I did ask in my email to them what what happens next next what happened CU we did get a grant um actually U to do design standards for this District so there was another agency again I've notified a number of people with what happens to this grant do we lose it come January 1st they I think they're still trying to figure this stuff out I haven't heard from them again we did our due diligence to notify them where we're at um but yeah what happen if we lose the grant we lose the grant what happens with the Elm Street Grant like that stays okay we have a commitment from the state that that's not touched by us same with barowski okay barowski yeah yeah so no those that was yeah we we had that answered a while ago the the three and a half million is still still good but um do we have it in writing um we were on a zoom call with them on it and they said no we I think we do I I'm thinking Milton where you know they went full Spite and yeah not only took things that you know were in the original houses but we're not there they they told us we're going forward and we're going forward and and to her point a zoom code the call is not heavy enough no I understand yeah so um yes so again appreciate your your your feedback at inputs Rob and I think when we go through this the event and come on the other side of it we may see people thinking the same thing as you or we come back and we say here is what the time submitted let's look at this let's look at the ideas that you have the ideas any the other ideas that we also have to bring to the table there I can't lie I'm a little worried this is going to blow up on you it's a lot I already did once yeah I know well um but at least we're responding to some people who said we want to weigh in on it and that's all I mean it it again I I'm not saying this is a guar fair thing I am not guaranteeing this is going to go off the thing I I just want to make sure people understand what they're doing it's easy to do and we'll see where people are at yeah let's basically if we get 20 people to come out we're doing good yeah yeah we get more than 20 let's hope so we have a motion in a second to uh tell Paul to go forward with the community event as he's laid out and as we've given feedback to this evening well the thing we don't have the authority to allocate funds all we just tell Paul to go forward right go forward the budget that he has the motion was go Brave and go forth is basically what and the money isn't serpent going to come in later they'll have to do the compliance modeling once the parcels are selected so we're going to have a little bit of time yes do we have to pay them too the printing post the poster printing is the the Paul budget the ped review of the compliance is the looking for the grant eventually so it's two different approaches yeah so we had that conversation last week so they were all so serpent in Mass housing we're all on the same page but she couldn't promise but they're trying to figure out how they can work with all these communities we're trying to get to the Finish Line yeah do we have to pay serit too mm we do we need we I don't have the ability to do the compliance model modeling okay it's a number CR I agree they've been helpful to us a on a lot of things you know I've worked with the traffic committee they've been a godsend over there and all um but you know and maybe because I work in the contract world and you take things individually I felt like on this issue they let us down that I felt like they pushed us in a bad Direction the original plan coming through with 1750 all of that you know I I felt like no one pushed me around we made our own decision Fair 18 months worth of work actually I think I think there's there's pieces where I think there could have been better communication about different issues and maybe we thought about it differently or done something a little bit differently along the way so regardless of that I think we should consider there are Regional planning agency I think we have like there's not a second source for this no they're the subject matter experts so we can they're working ask if we we need to ask more questions if we have concerns about what we're being presented I think that would be yeah you think we can get one of them to come to our event possible if we if we think we need them um yeah I think we have the I think we have the talent in house with all of us to be I think we do and I don't think we should be paying an outside agency I think we're okay with making this decision I just there are some things we I just don't have the capability of for the community event yeah we can handle that I mean we'll need some again certain limited things from them on that but um I think they'll I think they should be able to share an image file without too much trouble yeah um so we have I'll go back we have a motion on the floor in a second um any further discussion on the motion well Paul just for tonight is there any other direction or information you need but before we we give the green light I think I'm good I think the next step is really just building this so anyone interested in that you'll probably anyway so you can just go message man okay just keep us up to date with emails just send it to everyone whoever can help try okay so all in favor and say I all opposed extensions okay I'll abstain that say may abstain yeah cuz I just I don't like the idea I'm sorry you don't like the idea of reaching out to the public no don't put it that way no I don't like the idea of a big convol I think this is way too fancy well we're going to have to I see I see too many ways of it getting snarled no understood that's that's that's valid and we're going to do our best to to land that plane and make sure it's straightforward there yeah and and just to be clear because I explained originally that was my concern with it that we're not anything else like okay okay so yeah but no I not saying shove it to the public no okay I just want to be clear no I understand um so that runs through all the items we had posted I do want to as we said in our last meeting do a reminder about social media and posting um from an open meeting law perspective posting in a group where other members of the board are also members and will see it if the group has a if the group that you're posting in will have a quorum of members who can see it from a Town Council guidance perspective it is the same thing as sending a mass email to all of us even if nobody responds and nobody comments so really yes do we have a legal document that says that yes says in the guidance that we shared at our last meeting if you'd like a highlighted email from counil I have that as well look at that well the guidance we got was for a different town so I wasn't really sure how it apply it was from Our Town Council as Evergreen guidance meeting law applies to all towns if you if you'd like um I have a an email with highlighted sections from Town Council based on some of the recent posts that were shared um so I will simply say think about it when you post in groups about that sharing agendas great sharing an event great having a discussion about an item that's going to be before the board not great um I yes can we have a discussion about an item that has already been revealed to the to the public can we discuss something that is because you had a suggestion too it I wanted to go revealed in terms of like sharing the recording of a meeting if I mention something at a meeting can I then write what I said at that meeting and the details without asking for opinions or or public without asking for a vote on it we should be trying not to create forums where information is coming out that is not part of the meeting so what we what happens in our meetings should be the totality of what we're considering for all the prives we consider that's how I'm that's how I'm looking at it um for for me and I respect the idea of not trying to like the open meeting law so nothing happens behind closed doors or in violation whatever but there there is a bit of overreach in the sense of like I I I can speak my opinion about something speech over yeah yeah like I can say what I want about something something if I'm not going behind somebody's back if I'm not trying to make a deal if I'm just speaking information like if if somebody ask me a question about zoning and I answer what the zone is and we're still working on that project did I violate meeting law by defining what the zone is that that project's taking place in that's just answering a question it wasn't a discussion yeah there's there's 18 layers of inviting discussion is where it gets discuss on from the the raw like basic level like posting in a group where a quorum of members will see it is the same thing from an open Med L perspective as sending an email to everybody and what about posting hypothetical scenarios if I propose to the town what if we you're inviting a discussion if it's not a posted agenda item that he could just be talking about what what should I do with my shed yeah um so there's if I said how do people feel about having an industrial Zone in in on Main Street that's fine it's not on our agenda we're not working do you want it to be on our agenda I'm just saying in hon of try to not I'm trying to share the guidance from Town Council I have two kids of my own I don't want to be the parent of the boor so I don't want to break rules but I want anybody I have I shared the resources Paul shared the resources last session I have a secondary email from Town Council which feels like a form letter reply if you'd like to look at that too um I was actually disappointed in the reply we got from Town Council in terms of how generic their response was um there's nothing they can hang their head on they're trying to give something and they don't have no so it's um we've all I've shared guidance I think everybody knows that we probably have a quorum of members and Norton neighbors we probably have a quum of members and invest in Norton whatever that group is called and probably something else if anybody's in the dad jokes group with me then please don't post new planning stuff in there either the thing that that took place I think you're referring to is Steve posted one of his suggestions um I didn't have a problem with it I liked the suggestion um I declined because of some you said before not to give them my feedback right then and there you know like on the thing so I didn't respond to it at all but Steve simply said hey here's something I'm thinking of when you all think and honestly I don't see a problem with that and it was factual details is because all of us saw it and saw the discussion that's where it gets but you would have that information that's just factual if I say the R40 Zone all discussions and deliberations need to take place in a posted mating that is open mating law so but again it's a discussion on something that's if if if I said should we build an amusement park in town I think it's a good idea why can't I say that the hospital but I don't know to that I I we'll need clarification but I know for certain if if that was in front of you you should not be posting voting no I'm going to vote I'm going to vote Yes repr Productions what that's Crossing lot what is the right that's what is the I don't know what the remedies are for if we break open meeting law I would prefer not to find out specifically just trying to avoid alled by the state yes I would prefer not to do that yes we're scared so um so I've shared it I've shared it twice yeah I know I will say please don't make me share it a third time I will do my best not to break any of me law I app I will not refrain from speaking no I don't think we should break over meeting laws just I opinion I don't think they did and um I did refrain from having a conversation with him putting back any of my feedback on her because I was afraid you'd think that was a discussion and you might have been right on it yes so um if anybody would like to speak further thank you like to let Steve present his idea here if this is where he's supposed to be doing it um I don't think that the zoning recodification was on the agenda and then we have the November 13th right M this could either be for the zoning Ro codification which is when I mentioned it or it could be something we addressed separately which was also said at the meeting that maybe this is not the recodification was not the place for it right okay so if it's not part of the zoning recodification yeah am I okay to discuss it we can I don't I would say personally I don't think I'm mentally ready to discuss that point at this time I wasn't planning on bringing it up tonight but okay I mean I the idea was there it's on the last meeting whoever wants to know it can watch our last meeting it's publicly available okay um that's what I've been doing is holding you know both of my all my decks have actually stayed with me until the time came to come into meeting so you guys first saw them first but after that I considered interroga everybody can look at them I just let you guys see them first okay so we have a motion from Allan to adjourn we have second second we have a second from Eric is there any further discussion on the motion to adjourn no okay hearing none all in favor please say I I opposed extensions thank you very much everybody thank you