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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=fHE1VaEr6fk

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I'd like to call the meeting to order for the board of assessors. Tuesday, July 21st, it's 5:30 and uh for the record. Present is our director of assessing Denise Ellis, uh clerk Jim Shabet, member Lucas Ray, and

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myself, the chair Richard Dorny. Um up top first, Denise, is the acceptance of minutes. >> Did everybody have a chance to review the minutes? Yep. All set. Good. Could I have a motion to approve? >> Motion to accept the minutes as written.

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>> Second. >> Okay. All those in favor? >> I. >> Okay. Thank you. All right. Uh, next on the agenda would be old business.

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Uh and I think first topic was uh the um update from uh the department of local services do on our new application for six drive.

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>> Um I think did you get a chance to read um the response from >> Yeah. >> Okay. Did you get a chance? >> No. >> Oh, I sent it to you. >> Okay. Um, I can do that or you It's >> No, that's okay. Um, >> actually, do you want to do you want to talk? It's I can go over.

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>> Bottom line is the state denied it. So, there's nothing we can do. >> We submitted it. They denied it. So, >> yeah, it was three points that they brought up. Um, kind of an agreement that we uh we thought that might be >> I think we knew there was I mean, we tried. I think we knew there was nothing

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we could do. >> Yep. Okay. All right. Um, next is uh we had uh discussed actually I think the last two meetings about detach garages. >> That was going to be the next meeting. >> Was it going to be the next one?

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>> Yeah. >> Okay. Well, if you want I I pulled everything so you guys can look through them and then come back to me on the next meeting. >> So, I ran a report on all the detached garages. >> Okay. >> They look fine to me, but I figure if you guys want to split them up and go through them, you can do that.

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>> Yeah. And you know what? I might agree with you. Not saying I'm not going to, just I've seen a couple things that >> Nope. Um, so they're all here. Um, they're in categories by what type of garage. >> Um, so you guys can take those. I mean, there's >> Mhm. >> you know, and just split them up

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whatever you want to do, review them. >> Okay. >> So, and there's um key number here, which corresponds with the key number up there. >> Okay. >> Just easier for you guys. >> And there's like codes, rates, and we can see the methodology.

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Um, yep. You you can see well you can see what what the costs are. So you can see all the factors in there like um condition factors. >> Okay. >> Things like that. >> Okay. >> So there's enough information we can look at it and actually cuz it doesn't

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make sense to talk about it >> from an uninformed, right? >> You know that's >> that's why I figured I'd print everything and you guys can review them and can go through them. Okay. >> And I can go over a couple things after if you want just to show you what what you might want to look at. >> Okay. No, this is I mean it's a lot of

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work, but if we're not willing to do a lot of work. >> Yeah. >> Is kind of how I'm looking at it. So, >> Yep. Yeah. I went through every one of them. They looked fine. >> And a couple of them I did fix cuz one was like couple little things in there. Um but that was only on one or two of

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them out of this. Okay. 600 of them. >> So, that was that. So, we'll review that. We'll bring it forward for next meeting. >> Yeah, that's that's >> good with them, too. Actually,

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>> we can't we can't have an actual discussion if we're not >> up to speed. >> Yep. >> It It'll just be a very lengthy discussion that goes around in circles and that doesn't doesn't help anybody. So, is this where we're talking about the codes or like you want to I mean,

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I'd like to review all those for sure, but you know, I do have some things I want to discuss and if you want to just get through >> No, no, go ahead. Yeah, I'm not. >> So, you know, when we were discussing the codes on email, you know, you guys all saw the email, so I printed that out. Um, in that email that Denise

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responded to me and said that, you know, the the class tables are not public record. Uh, they belong to PK valuation. So, I did do some research and you can see the >> document I provided that says that um

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right here. Let me find it. >> All right. So, that is on our number four. We're going to talk. >> So, you want to get to that after? >> Yeah. Yeah. That's why I said I don't know if you want to get to it now or >> we got that separated as number four. So um >> uh for new business uh we have monthly

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less >> um excise. >> Okay. Okay. So, these Okay. So, these aren't tied together. These In other words, there's not like a packet that goes with this. >> No. Okay. No, that those are all of

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them. So, I fig if you got to split them up, then you can start with the key number is >> and >> like this number. They're probably mostly we got to just look at all these and I'm guessing this doesn't give us enough information to >> this gives you all the information um on

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them. >> But this gives us more. >> This gives you more. Yeah. This give you the whole card. This is just a list. That's just a list. >> It's right >> basically. And it corresponds. >> These are the ones we got to >> dig into. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's the same thing, but this is more information. Right.

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>> Is that all the garages in town? >> All the detached garages. detached. >> Okay. >> Make three piles, I guess. Okay. H These just come in as they come in and

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then we >> No, I I realized that. I just saw somebody moved. I hadn't realized. >> Not that it matters, just >> All right. Okay. All right. Um, moving along. Uh, subject two or topic two on new business door hangers. Um, I think

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this is >> Yep. So, I printed out the door hanger here. Um, and right here it it says clearly, um, board of assessors. This is a request for an inspection that was left on a home. Miss Ellis requested

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to get inside the home to take a look at an addition. And I just don't ever remember discussing um, handing out flyers addressed from the board of assessors. And I know we've been talking about, you know, the right of the assessor to enter homes. And you

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know, we did change that rule with the CO requirement. >> Yep. >> Um I don't feel as though the you know, I don't agree with these flies. I don't agree with the assessor being going into homes or knocking on doors to request interior inspections.

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>> Yeah. >> Jim. >> Yeah. >> What is this? >> Okay. >> Well, okay. So, >> but I just don't ever remember discussing the um you know the board being on a fly office. >> These cards have been out there probably

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for 30 years. Every town in the state does them and there's a couple of I got one from um Global, which is a city, and I got one right next door to Mansfield. >> Everybody does them. Well, I can't speak to the other towns, but

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>> Well, it's >> I just personally don't agree that it should be coming from the board of assessors. >> Well, we work under the board of assessors. >> Welcome. >> So, um >> just like on the other flyers, you'll

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see those. It all says board of assessors because the board of assessors and the assessor's office is one department. Doesn't always feel like that though. I >> I totally agree with you. >> You're asking for information and we're not getting information. >> I'm giving you everything that you ask

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for, everything that I can possibly give you. Not everything you can have. >> I I've got a couple of thoughts on it. Uh this looks >> Yep. >> Um correct. I don't see anything I mean I would like to see a way of

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possibly making this appear more friendly, but I don't see anything wrong with it. I mean there's um we need to attempt to see the inside. I think do we do we all agree on that? That >> I don't agree with that. But I don't

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think we I don't think that the assessor should be walking into homes. You know, I think we've already discussed that. That's my opinion. >> Well, it has to be by permission. >> But I think we have I think we have an obligation to ask. But I don't feel like, you know, the I don't feel like the assessor should be walking around

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yards without permission, you know, and especially walking in homes. Obviously, they can't go in homes without permission, but just walking on somebody's property, walking around the yard. I don't feel I you know, >> I feel like if you're going to take Denise, I'm talking. >> So, if you're going to take photos, take them from the street, you know, and you

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should be you shouldn't be walking around homes. You shouldn't be walking through fences and gates and and walking on people's property. So, >> I understand that that's the way it's always been done. >> It's state regulated. Everything we Everything we do in this office is state regulated. That's a thing I just Googled

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and it tells you what we need to do. And if you go if you go on to that link, right, to the mass.gov assesses pages. It tells you, yes, we do go out. We do go on the property. We take pictures. We measure and we try to

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get in. We have to do that for certain reasons. Obviously, we want to make sure everything's right. If we, like I said before, if we don't do our inspections, then we will not get a tax rate. We don't get a tax rate, the tax bills don't go out and then you have no money

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coming into the town. We have to do it. We don't have a choice. >> You're not required to go into a new build. And we already discussed this with >> this isn't Yeah, hang on a minute. Y >> Okay. on the outside for the most part

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it's a subcontractor that is doing it. >> Is that right? cyclical only the cyclical that they do that >> but that's the big >> right we do all the per the office does all the >> but the big but the big walking around is the cyclical that's where people are going to see our people out there and we

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did talk about and hopefully we'll follow through and I don't have any reason to think we wouldn't that going forward as it comes up where they're going to be out there I mean they're going to have to walk on people's property to measure and whatever but if we inform people say look if you live on

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these streets in the near future between these dates, we're going to be out there expected. I think we can get cuz cuz I do agree with Lucas as far as I want to make people feel as comfortable as possible. Um, do

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we um Yeah, I agree. >> This one document you just gave me, Denise, says waved appeal rights. If you refuse to allow an assessor to view your property, you essentially wave your rights to later challenge or appeal your property's assessed value abatement if you believe it's too high. I think we've

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already proven that you don't lose your you don't get automatically denied with the board. It's still at the discretion of the board. You lose your rights to an appeal at the appellet if the board denies you your abatement. You don't automatically deny. The board of assessors is not automatically denied because they refused entry.

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>> Right? But that's what this says. It's just kind of tricky language. It says later appealed, >> right? So what happens? No. No. Itifies specify that it's the appellet that you know. >> Yeah. Well, we know. But >> And what happens if you How do you abate something when you don't know it's there? So you have to inspect it to do

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an abatement. >> But the law is clear like the board of assessors does not automatically have to deny an abatement because you weren't allowed entry into the inside. That's at the discretion. >> Okay. Um so >> so this is my question.

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>> Yep. And just for the record, um, would you just, uh, name and your address? >> So, my name is Karen Dalton. I live at 113 King Road. >> And Denise came to my door, whatever, two weeks ago or whenever it was, um, and said she wanted to come in and look

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at my new addition. >> You didn't? >> No. I said, I just want to measure the addition on the outside. >> That is not what you said. >> That's exactly what I said. said if I did not let you in the house, you would have to guess at my >> assessment and then I may be assessed at

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higher. >> That's true. But I was talking about doing the measurements on the outside because we always want to confirm them. >> But that is true. And it says >> outside is on the plans and you know we get you know we have to do an asbuilt with the foundation. The plans are accurate. So I'm not sure

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>> the plans are not always accurate. I'm telling you I do this all the time. Sometimes she has built >> I I had this this edition done. >> Yeah, >> it was inspected by the building inspector, the plumbing inspector, the electrical inspector.

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She said she had to come into my home and I said I would not let her in my home because I've been tricked one other time by her. But >> oh my god, >> you come onto my property. I have a dog. What if my dog attacked you? Like I think you should have had an appointment. I don't think that she

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should just show up at my door and say, "I need to come in." And is it or is it not that my house is t taxed on the size of it, not what's inside? They know what was inside a bathroom and a bedroom and an office. That's exactly what the plan

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said. They've all inspected it, signed off on it. So, why do I need her to come into my house? That's my question. >> First, we did send you a postcard saying that we would be out and that you could schedule an appointment. We send out postcards. We send them out every single

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year to every permit that is pulled. >> Okay? >> We do do that and people do call and make appointments for us. >> I wouldn't have made an appointment anyways. >> I wouldn't have because as I said in the past, I was tricked into having somebody >> How was you How How did I trick you

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coming into your house? I I was told it was you needed to my um permit for my pellet stove was not signed off on and I am 100% sure it was because I had a fire with my last one and I would not use

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this one until I had it um inspected. >> Right. So we come out there when that's pulled for you had a metal stack. >> Yes. And you came out and had done that and then >> Well, let me let me finish. >> So you had a metal stack. So, we want to just to make sure that it's not a second metal stack because we don't want to

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assess you for something else that's not there. We don't know if it's being replaced. We just see the permit for a metal stack. Now, if you didn't let me in, I probably would have assessed you for a second metal stack because we can't see it. So, that's probably why I came in your house to confirm that it was still the one metal stack. That's

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all I did. >> But that isn't what you said when you got to my house and that I had already had someone come out and look at >> Yeah, but that's a different department. We're totally different than all the other departments. If >> there was a second I'm just got one thing though. If there was a second metal stack in, you would require a fire

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department permit for that for to install a second metal stack. >> It doesn't matter what the other departments do. We are totally separate from all the other departments. We have to come out and do these. >> You can't put in a second metal stack without the fire department owner permit. >> Lucas, it has nothing. The fire

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department has nothing to do with the assessment. when you say that I think you had a second I'm not going to get into >> second stack because you know that they didn't have a second stack because we had to pull a permit for that. >> All right. Whatever. >> So my question is I don't have to allow her in my home. Correct. >> No, you don't.

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>> Nor do I have to allow her on my property. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> And I left and I didn't measure anything and I left. >> I know. But I didn't care for the fact that you tried to use a scare tactic saying >> I did not use a scare tactic. >> You said if I didn't allow you in my house, you would assess me at a higher

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rate. No, I said if I didn't measure it, it could be wrong and it could be assessed at a higher rate. >> We have to guess and I that's true. We do have to guess and it says it right in the paperwork from the state. It'll say that online. >> You could look at everything that was signed. >> Well, okay. So, I'm not going to get

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into it, but again, sometimes the plans change. I've been to plenty of houses and they have changed and that's it's that's just what the state requires us to do and that's what we're doing. That's my job. Do you have a job? No. >> And you Okay. Well, one day you might have had a job and you had to do your

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job. I am here doing my job. That's all I'm doing. >> All right. Okay. >> But I was told that you weren't allowed in my house and then you >> which is a lot which is not true. You know trying to find out. And you know what? And you know what? I'm really glad you brought that up because of you in your Facebook post. One of my

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>> this Facebook post >> one of my employees from >> from everything else that's out there. One of my employees got blocked in by an angry person the other day. So what you're doing is making it very dangerous for us. >> Perhaps I should post another Facebook

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post. >> I'm just telling you it's becoming very Let's get back to the actual Lucas's friend or >> the actual question. >> Yes. >> No, you never have to allow us inside. >> Okay.

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>> And yes, we do have to guess if that's the case, >> right? And I would hope that our guess would be a reasonable one, not one that anybody should be afraid of. >> I mean, we're trying to be accurate is what we're trying to do.

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>> How would you guess? You would look at the plans or look at the, you know, block plan or something, right? I mean, you just >> Well, so >> I'm a little new at this. >> Okay. >> I'm going to say that not not new to I mean, I've been building houses for almost 40 years now. I'm not new to

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knowing what something's worth. >> Right. Right. Right. I would, and we're still working through all this, so I can't speak for anyone here, and I'm not going to, right? >> But I would guess that what was done is

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decent and good, >> right? >> In other words, >> I wouldn't assume you had goldplated faucets, >> or anything like that, but I wouldn't assume they were cheap either. >> But wouldn't it would it matter if I did? >> It actually would. >> It can in some cases. It it uh a kitchen can change things quite a

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bit. I mean, you can >> you can put in a kitchen for 30 $40,000. That's probably maybe you can. That's kind of on the low side these days, >> but you can put in a kitchen for $300,000, >> right? >> And the house would be the same on the

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outside and that. So, that could happen. >> Mhm. >> Um, in most cases, I mean, this is Norton, >> right? I live on the lake. I mean, so these are little cottages, so don't worry. I don't have goldplated anything. But in any case, I would hope that

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>> yeah, we want to be accurate, but at the same time, I hope our assumptions wouldn't be crazy. >> I I was under the >> And I don't get the impression >> footage, not what was inside. >> No, my house is a mess on the inside. My taxes would get lowered. >> Yes.

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>> Well, yeah. I would Okay, for sure. That's the big thing. If your house is an absolute total dump on the inside, >> Yeah. >> call us. >> Okay. >> Right. >> Yeah. I mean, that's kind of we should be doing that for sure. >> How big it was, not by what it looked

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like on the inside. >> And you don't have to wait for abatement season for that either. I mean, anytime somebody thinks their property is incorrect, we can come out and fix it anytime. We'd rather do it before the abatement season. >> That way, you don't have to file an abatement. >> Exactly. >> I found out there was a shed on my

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property. >> I found out my property line was different. And the shed that was on it was the neighbors. And I've been being taxed on that for years. And when I came up, they said I couldn't ask for an abatement. >> No, but I think >> until January. That's correct. January 1st to February 1st. But we can take it off before that. And you don't have to

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file an abatement. We can never go back. We can only go forward. >> Tell me that. So I have to come back up and have that done. >> Well, we can do it anytime. >> So just give us a call. >> Oh, yeah. But if do we still have it on there? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Then we'll have to come by and just check. >> The date is January to January. So we

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can't do anything about the past. But you don't have to wait and file an abatement. You can come in and say, "Hey, look, this is a problem. It's wrong. >> Come out, look at it, and say, "Yeah, you're right." And we fix it. And going forward that >> it would be all stuff going easier process.

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>> Much easier. Much easier. >> We prefer to do it that way. Actually, >> when I replied yesterday to your email, >> it was, you know, basically what we're our goal is really to do a fair assessment of the property, >> right? which includes the inside of the home if there are additions or

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upgrades. So, >> that's really what we're trying to do. We're not trying and and we're trying to make the experience >> as um seamless and and non-confrontational and >> but people should also understand there

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they have the right to deny you entry. They don't need to allow you in. And then if they don't allow you in, they shouldn't be scared into believing that if they don't allow you in, they're going to get overt taxed. That's >> we're not scaring anybody. We're just informing them that that could happen.

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And so they're not surprised when they get their tax bill. >> That's all we're doing. >> It's a priority. >> And every town will tell you the same thing. >> Nailed down. >> And I'm Go ahead. I know you're thinking. I am because I'm not sure what

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to say because I I guess the big thing that I would would hope we'd all agree is um if people aren't comfortable with us going in that that's their right. um we have no choice then but to estimate

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but somehow I think we need to gain trust and I don't know which way to do it in that our estimate is going to be just an honest estimate. >> It should be a fair estimate. It should be yes this home is new addition. It's

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>> and I can't I can't comment on whether any affair or not or anything like that. I don't know. Um, but I would hope that's our goal. >> It absolutely is. >> It shouldn't be we're going to consider this, you know, top-notch, you know,

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high-end quality or what, you know, because we weren't let in. No, it should be >> But we need a whole ton of information and we have to do a whole ton of work before we even have the conversation because we're talking about things we don't >> Yeah.

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>> At least in my case, I don't know. And I don't want to talk about something I don't know about, but >> the less assumption, the more accurate you're going to be. >> And >> I just fig the plans and it it pretty much stated everything right there. It was just a basic room with nothing in

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it. >> Yep. >> Yes. >> David Cooney. I live 134 road. So I was in the construction business all my life in the union and everybody devil at the assessors and yelling. It's like I don't know what type of your

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job, but you know, you know, it's kind of a grateful job, the job that you have, I'm sure. Um, and we never did because we always felt that we were going to be, you know, assess more. It's just like the frame of mind, >> you know, and then I've heard stories

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where they go in and they look at one part or they say that, you know, inspected and then they look at the whole house and all of a sudden your taxes go up, you know, because you're paying your cabinets or whatever. You know what I mean? That's always a possibility, but honestly, I probably bring more assessments down than I bring

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up by doing inspections. So, no, I agree that can definitely happen. And that's only for people who >> there's a ton of people, not just us and not people in this town. >> Um, >> and those are mostly the people that don't pull the permits that end up getting else.

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>> Me being in the in the construction, >> I think you hit it on the head. Not just this town, everywhere. >> It's everywhere. So >> to see one person tell us no, >> but we still have to try. And at the same time, >> I personally I was a cop was a school, so I had to go on both sides of the

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fight. I was there when he came. >> It felt a little intimidating on our end. >> So I'm sorry about that. I didn't >> Oh, that's fine. I'm sure maybe you had a bad day. Maybe somebody else swore to you before. I always give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but um what you

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come in the house and all of a sudden you're in the house and then you start looking at something else and I'm scared if I go to stop you then all of a sudden I'm I just committed a crime. >> No. So what we do here in Norton is if we do get in, we ask you at that point, do you want to do a full inspection for the 10-year cyclical and we'll get it

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out of the way while out there instead of having a third party that should be on this. >> That's a question that we always ask people if they want to do it. Most people will say no. I think the more upfront you get with anything y >> the more better results. So on your letters or stickers saying you want to be asked just figure out some way that

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for some people that let you we'll never let the assessors in for any reason unless whatever like let the inspectors in to inspect something like the stove but there's nothing we have to hide and there's nothing we don't I want to want to go buy go buy a nice faucet and all of a sudden you know I just said

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>> here's an example right here you said you don't have a shed anymore but if I did that inspection I would have already taken that shed off >> because it wasn't there because I would have checked for that stuff. So that's something I would have done while I was there. So now we'll have to go out anyway if you want to do that. >> My point of view.

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>> Yeah. No, I I agree with what you're saying. >> Okay. >> I'm not disagreeing at all. >> Appreciate it. I >> I'm guessing you have a lot of bad days. >> Just certain time of year. I do. Um, so if we can figure out a way to do something with the card, maybe more

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information or whatever, for you to have less bad days and for people to have I mean, >> I hope that's where we're trying to go. >> The cards are pretty standard. Um, and we have thousands of them, so that's

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>> all right. Anything else, Karen? >> No, I just think in this day and age, so few people go door todoor anymore. I mean, I don't even normally I won't even open my door. I don't know why I did that. >> Well, the issue we have is that >> we don't have a permit.

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>> You know what I mean? Like, you got the permit to build the addition. So, you the, you know, the inspections are coming and everything and we're kind of like the redheaded stepchild, right? >> We have to come and knock on the door, >> right? Like I said, I have a dog. What if my dog came out and went after it? You know, who's whose fault would that have been?

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>> But not just days and other nowadays, you know, it's crazy. It's a difficult. >> Yeah, you don't want committ. >> Believe me, we don't want to do half these, but we have to do them by the state. >> Fall all of a sudden. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's just I I that's why I wouldn't let people in the house. We don't let >> you trip on my

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>> buildings come in their inspect their license. >> Well, I know. >> Well, we're in short as well. >> I know in general if someone wants to solicit your home or your neighborhood, they have to register with the town clerk and get an identification lanyard or something like that. So,

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>> yeah. >> Um, you know, >> okay. >> All right. >> I just wanted to clarify that's all cuz, you know, one person tells you one thing, one person tells you another, and they're both saying he's wrong, she's wrong, he's wrong, she's wrong. Who do I listen to? You know, >> and I don't think I still know the

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truthful answer, but I think you guys figure it out in >> No, the truthful answer is you never have to let us in. >> Okay. >> If you don't let us in, we have to estimate. >> Yeah. Um, and I hope I said that in a way that doesn't sound like we're going

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to try to estimate low or high, but the bottom line is >> we might be high. We might be low. It's an estimate. >> Not then you come and ask for an abatement if they you think it's too high. >> It's too high. Okay. And now Okay. Now,

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and the abatement gives you a second chance, >> right? >> So, you ask for an abatement, you say, "You got it wrong." >> Yeah. >> Okay. Now, we could still abate it if you don't let us in, >> right? >> But if we if you don't let us in and we

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don't agree with you, cuz to be honest, if we don't get in, we're going to look at it and say, I don't know what the deal is here. This looks right to us. >> Right. Right. Right. >> You know, so letting us in helps that way, >> right? But then if you disagree with us and say you guys are trying to get us

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and you go to the state, >> if you don't let us in, you don't get a chance to do that, >> right? Okay. >> So we sometimes it could be in your best interest, >> right? >> Sometimes not. I mean, if you had three bedrooms and we don't know about it,

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>> right? >> You don't want to let us know about you want >> Exactly. I mean, you know, it's licensed those three bedrooms. >> I think the only per people that would really have a problem would be the people who do work in their home that don't pull permits, >> right? >> Those are the people that >> Yeah.

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>> probably don't want to sin, right? >> You know, get that >> check. I pull permits for everything. >> Yep. >> So, hopefully our estimate is good. >> I hope so. >> And hopefully you're happy. >> So, >> um

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if not, I'll let you know. How's that? and I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll do my best to listen to you. >> Thank you very much. I appreciate it. >> Excellent. >> All right. Thank you very much. >> Thank you for your time, everyone. >> Have a good night. Thank you. >> Have a good night.

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>> Okay. Um, do we discuss or we still want to discuss door hands? >> No. No. Amen. >> I mean, the only thing I could see to add to it would be something that would say at this time if you allow a full

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inspection, it could take the place of the cyclical. I'm not sure how to word it. In other words, somebody's going to come out every 10 years. You pulled the permit, we came out. If you let us see the whole thing, then the 10 year thing, you get

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to skip that one. I guess it's like you get a year between getting a jury duty card, but if you go, you get three years. >> I I don't know how to word it. And if we've got a thousand of them. >> Yeah. I And the other thing, I don't know if we could fit it on there either.

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And plus, I don't know if we'd leave that there. I mean, we could always check off cyclical and permit. We do both like something like that. Um I don't know. We can think about that though for the future. >> Yeah. I don't see anything. >> Yeah. I mean, but the flyers are not,

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you know, the biggest topic. >> I I don't see anything wrong. This looks >> Yeah, it looks looks okay, I think. >> All right. Yeah. And that's just one communication tool, correct? >> Um when we're doing inspections,

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>> well, we send out the postcards, right, >> to let them know and they can call us to schedule an appointment. And if they don't, then we come out and if they're not home, we leave those. >> Okay. Okay. >> They don't answer the door >> kind of. >> And then we talked about maybe doing a um something on the website listing

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streets >> when we do. Yeah. >> Yeah. And they usually are too. I don't I don't know what happened this year, but they usually do. >> I think we can get a lot of goodwill out of that. >> Mhm. Yeah. We usually >> You want better days, right? >> No, we got to >> What about uh

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I don't know if this would work um but I'll mention it. Most people have cell phones. That's their primary. But robocalls. >> No, but I mean, if you have six, eight streets, I don't that would >> that would be a lot of work. But

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>> and I got to be honest with you, >> when we had kids in school, you got no choice but to get those robo valves. Leave me alone. I don't want to hear it. >> Yeah. >> All right. Yeah. >> All right. I'm just trying to look another way. All right. Okay. So, door

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hangers. I >> know what a door hanger is. I'm thinking about garage doors and I don't know what. >> All right. So, next um topic number three, tools for inspections. Uh examples, drones, an air map, and GIS

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>> drone. >> And I think Lucas had sent us an email. >> I'm just curious what the assessor's office, you know, how they um use drones. >> We don't have drones. So, we were, you know, at the recent appellet hearing and

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you had some updated photos of my property and you said that you got it from drone photos. >> No, near map. We don't have drones. >> Near map. >> Yeah. Near map is what they fly over twice a year. >> And who hires near Map? Do they use drones? >> No, they use planes. They they fly in a grid. They come in a plane and they fly

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in a grid through the whole the whole area, all the towns. >> Cuz I'm pretty certain you said drones. And I'm going to have to go back to the tape. >> No, I would never say drones. So the assess office does not use drones. >> Nope. >> Okay. >> Not at all. No, we use near map. >> Near map. And they use planes. No

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drones. Cuz I'm going to go back to my hearing and listen to that hearing. I'm almost positive you said drones. >> I highly doubt I would never say drones. >> So that's the same as like when we do an aerial topography, you fly it with a plane. >> Yeah, that's what it is. >> Yep. Yep. And most likely, now that

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you're telling me this, I'm guessing when we pay to have one fly an aerial topography, they're probably just buying it from this near map guy. >> Well, near map is the company that comes out. They're the company. >> But what I'm saying is if we have like a big parcel, a couple hundred acres, and

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we need to do the topography. We're not going to go out and do it by hand. You have it flown. Yeah. And >> it's starting to sound like I'm starting to wonder, well, you pay them to fly it, but it sounds like somebody's already flying it and you just buy it. >> You know what? I think pretty much because they have this whole area now. I

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think they're pretty much all the towns are going with near map now. There used to be two company. There used to be another company, Victometry, EW, we had them, but they were expensive. Um, and then near map came up. >> Um, >> they're not they don't fly as close. >> Google Earth Plus. >> Yeah, kind of. Yep. And then they fly it

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in a grid twice a year when the leaves are off the trees. >> Um, and all the departments use this actually. It's not just our office like the health department can use it. You know, fire, police, like whoever wants to use it. DPW. >> Yep. >> Go back to my hearing and just listen to

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my hearing again because I'm pretty sure I heard >> and then we just uh mentioned GIS as well. >> Well, just to settle it. So, we don't have a drone and we don't go out and >> No, never used a drone. Don't even know how to use a drone. never talked about buying drones or anything.

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>> Okay. So, NAP is, >> you know, Okay. So, because I thought I heard that and I'm almost positive I heard that at my hearing, I would like to make a motion that the assessor's office does not use drones over private residences for >> I don't think it's legal. I don't think we can.

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>> Well, I I think as a board, and I got some I do have some I did do some research. Yes, we as a board can restrict the assessor's office in certain and a lot of towns have done it from the use of drones. So, >> well, if we don't have one, then no harm to make a motion.

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>> Again, I think I think we do have one because and I know I know certain departments do. >> Okay. But would that >> other departments do 100%. >> Would that put it to bed? >> It would put it to bed if we have a policy that restricts the use of the assessor's office to use. >> I mean, I don't have any problem having a policy to not use. she's correct and

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we don't have a if she's correct and we don't have drones that's fine but you know I still want the policy on the record so >> I'll make a motion to restrict the >> second >> second >> yeah to restrict the assessor's office from the use of drones >> it's kind of >> I don't think it's legal for us to use

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drones right now anyway so I don't care >> so all those in favor >> I okay >> okay so >> I know other drones >> we're not allowed to use something we don't have >> other departments other departments have been using drones conservation instrument population but that's So we can't So just to let you guys know,

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we're we're through the fly over. We have to be a certain height. We can't get down. We can't go that far down into somebody's yard. I That's why I would never use a drone. We can't get that close. It's illegal. >> So we'll never use a drone. Not for maybe years. >> I'm just saying I'm going to watch the tape of my last meeting and if if there

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was mention of drones, it will be coming up at the next meeting. So I'm proud of that. >> But we don't use drones. >> Pretty sure I heard what I heard. >> Nope. Well, we don't anymore. >> No, but we used a drone. Never plan on using a drone. Don't know how to use a drone. I don't want to use a drone. >> Yeah. Well, you better not see.

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>> All right. All right. All right. Next topic number four, cost tables, which uh Lucas. >> So, the other the cost tables is another issue. We've been going back and forth on email uh where Denise had said that these are not public record. um you know so I'd like to you know obviously and

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all three of us asked to be fair all three of us asked for these cost tables so that we could get the um recommended valuations from you know PK that uses their um that software so we all asked for this um I asked that it be brought to this meeting Denise you said that we

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could come into your office and look at it but it can't leave the office because it's not public record but I wasn't asking you as a member of the public first of all I was asking as a member of the board to provide us with the cost tables. Um the I did do some research

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and right here it does say uh in Massachusetts of the tax assessor cost codes um for the property cards public record and it says yes the information is a matter of public record under Massachusetts records law MDL6610 all records maintained by the municipal

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board of assesses including property record cards um often called field cards or vision cards and the underlying cost codes, classification codes, evaluations are public information. >> So that's in your it's in your flyer, too.

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>> Not according to um the valuation companies and the DLS lawyer because they're probably Is that where >> Well, I haven't seen anything from the DLS lawyer. >> Well, I was talking to them, so you could always ask them. >> Well, they don't put anything in writing cuz that's >> and I couldn't print those out because I

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I don't even have access to print them. So, I did some screenshots, but I can't even print them. >> So, there's How many codes do you think? >> I just want to 200 there's 200 codes and we've discussed this. So in order to value these these garages and these homes and these hot tubs and these sheds

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accurately we need to see the cost codes and and as a board we have every right to those cost codes and whether or not it's public record is irrelevant because we are the board you're our principal agent you work under the board and when we all three of us ask for these these

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documents then I expect that you're going to provide them to us. >> Well I can't print them. I'm not able to print them. It doesn't let me print them. I >> can screenshot them. And you did this. >> I did some, but there's there's tons of them. I can't and I you can't even decide. You No, there's more than How do you know? >> Because you sent us 200 codes. Are there

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more than 200 codes >> for cost tables? They're probably because each >> Did you not send us all the codes that we asked for? Cuz I asked you for all the codes. >> Two different things. Completely two different things. >> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Right here. Just Just take I'm just going to grab one at random. >> We've got a code GFL. Is that the code?

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That's a >> I don't even know that. I'm going to indigent that's a code that's that means >> and then we've got quality 1.0. >> Right. So in >> that means that doesn't affect whatever the base code is. Right. >> So the quality is it goes from um poor

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up to excellent. So that's probably a >> question though like and and but I'm not trying to be short with you know but it makes Okay. So >> at this point we don't know what the base code is for GFL. because I'm just looking at it for the

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first time. >> Right. Right. Okay. Right. So I see quality 1.0. That means that's saying to me whatever the B Right. But the the factor is 1.0 which means it wouldn't change the code. >> Oh, let me see which one looks like.

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>> That's what I'm trying to get it. That's what I'm trying to get it. So >> Oh, yeah. See, quality is average. So if it some might say >> but the number is 1.0, which means whatever the code is, it still is at the 1.0.

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>> And then we got condition 75, >> which means >> which >> the condition is >> that's some depreciation >> depreciation. So that would be 75. So whatever the code is, >> it would reduce the code by a factor of 75 mathematically

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>> 0.25. So it's saying um >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It would it would what would survive would be 75 of the >> valuation >> correct? >> And then we've got units 1024 adjusted price 8362.

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So I just want to see if this is accurate. So if I took 83.62 62 divided by no multiplied by the reciprocal of 75 that would give me the

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base. >> Oh should >> should >> 75 right >> which means if quality was 1.0 condition was 1.0 zero. The resulting number at adjusted price would be the price for

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the code, right? >> Uh the code staying the same, right? >> Okay. Yeah. I'm not trying to code stay the same. >> I bet you you know the answer to this party in here.

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>> So math on this calculator. >> Okay. what we're trying to figure out so that we can evaluate and we've got some homework um is each and I guess we're

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let's say for the sake of of the argument there are 200 codes in the system for different items. um what they are, I don't know. But say there's a code for standard residential space, that would be a code and it would

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have a value. So, we would take the code, the value times the square footage, and that would give us our our number. And what we're trying to do as a board is get a handle on where these are at and how they're used because ultimately we're responsible for.

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So, what I was asking and I just grabbed one at random and we've got a code um GFL, no idea what it is, doesn't matter. Um condition 1.0 um average adjustment factors 1.0. So that whatever the value

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for the code is would remain intact if the factor is 1.0. And then we've got condition 75 because of depreciation and 25 next to it I'm assuming is how many years old is it is.

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>> Yeah. But it doesn't that doesn't matter though. That's not going to take it into effect. >> Which would if my assumption is correct and that's what I'm trying to ask. Um then whatever that code is would then be reduced by 0.25 or 75 of that value would remain.

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>> That would make the most sense. I agree. >> So so >> so then we've got an adjusted price of 83.6. 62, which if we ran the number backwards would give us what the value of the code is to start with.

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>> I apologize to disappoint you. I'm not an expert on these codes. >> So, what you would do, >> but you showed up, >> Sam, let me just explain to you. It might be easier this way >> cuz I'm just trying to understand it cuz I think from there, >> so you have the adjusted price. >> Mhm.

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>> Right. the 8362, multiply it by the square footage, which is the 1024. >> Yep. >> Okay. Then you'll come with your value, and then on this one, whatever that value comes out to be, I did it on this one here. >> Um, then you would multiply it by the

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25%, you would take the 25% off of that. >> Like on this one here, I did. >> This might be easier cuz I already did this one. >> Wait a minute. 83.25 25 um divided by 75 $111.

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Okay. So 111 * 75. Okay. So I guess what I'm saying is then GFL equals 111. >> Yeah, probably. Yeah. And then because you can get a depreciation. >> But I think I think that's what we're looking for.

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>> Yeah. I couldn't. So I will still look for you guys. But >> no, no, no. I I understand the complexities might make this a hard thing. Yeah. Not >> because when you let me just explain it real quick. >> To provide us with these cost tables is a huge concern to me. So I wasn't asking

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you as a taxpayer or a citizen. I was asking you as a member of the board to provide us with the cost tables that you use to value certain every code. You're reluctant to provide us with these. We all asked for them. All three of us asked for them in in email after the

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last meeting. You said you can come into my office and you can look at these. These are not public record. I just showed you that these absolutely are public record. And even even if they weren't public record, Denise, with a board, you should still be providing us with this information. I shouldn't have to come into your office, sit at your

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desk, and look at information. You can provide us at the meeting with this information. And if it's not public record, then sure, you can't email it. Okay? Don't email it. You could I then I asked you well print them out and then I'll bring them to the meeting. You refused to do that. I said okay then you

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bring them to the meeting somebody and I said we could even have this meeting in your office. >> But but are we and that's why I wanted to do that exercise. Are we on the same page >> as to what we're asking for? >> Let's just say there's a pool. You got a 20x40 pool and Marshall and Swift is the

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company that we're using because you told me I could purchase that software which I'm not going to do. So Marshall and Swift, you got a 20x40 pool. And then this guy's got a 20x40 pool. Marshall and Swift is going to have a cost code in there, a recommendation for

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a 20x40 pool. So let's say this guy's paying 30 bucks a square foot for that pool and this guy's paying 60 bucks a square foot for that pool. That's what I want to see is why the discrepancy. How can we say that this guy's 20x40 pool is worth double what this guy's worth? We

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can't do that without these cost codes. And it's not just pool, it's cababanas, it's everything like sheds, hot tubs, >> you know, we should we should we need to see these codes. >> You you can't hold these from us. >> I just explain to you I can't print them

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because I can't print them out of the system. You can screenshot it and we can print the screenshot days. >> Here's what I'm wondering about. >> It's not. >> Do you know exactly what's being asked for? >> I I do. And then >> in other words, GFL equals 111.

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>> I know exactly what you're looking for and they're not in there like that because the reason being is we have all these codes, right? All these ones along with all these other codes that are on here, >> correct? >> And everything has a depreciation

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factor. So one code will have 10 depre I'm just saying this could have 10 depreciation >> for each individual code. And but then on top of that, there's more depreciation for different things.

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That's the most Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Cuz I think >> I mean I hope we're trying to do the same thing is get to the bottom. >> Yeah. >> And that's so this particular >> Let me show you this real quick. >> We know I think that GFL, whatever it

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is, I guess that's ground. >> That's a no GF. So all this stuff on this over on this side is all stuff that's like um detached stuff like your garages, your cabanas, your sheds, all that stuff goes over here.

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>> Um in what um GFL is garage with a finished loft is what that is. >> And if it's a GFU, it's a garage with an unfinished loft. Um then you can have a detached. >> So to begin with, for us to evaluate anything, we need to know what the codes mean,

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>> right? Which you have those. I don't. And it could be that I didn't look in the right place. I'm not saying. >> I can send it to you again. >> Okay. Well, we can. >> So, GFL, so garage with finished loft. >> Yep. >> Is $111. Y >> and that's public record

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>> because it's right there. If you do the math, >> I guess is that what we're looking for? >> I want to see what this Marshall and Swift recommends. So, so garage and finish aside from where it comes from. >> So, all right. or whoever whatever it

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comes from. If GFL is 111 and we have a piece of paper that says GFL means this and it's $111. >> Yeah. >> Subject to change cuz next year everything changes I'm sure. >> You know, >> right? >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> With that information, we can go through this whole stack. It's going to take

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forever. But you know what? If we want to know, we deserve it. Um um I guess what I'm hearing you say and I'm trying to get to the bottom is that you can't just print that list. It's not >> it's not

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>> in other words you have to type in GFL and then it will actually does it even tell you then? >> No. So it'll just give you like so in the office and go look at the screen and see how it pops up. Well, I'm getting it. >> Let me show you here Jim. Okay. So here

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here's one screen's got that right. So this is like some of the factors the building um the base depreciation tables like these are all the different factors right. So then I have another screen. >> So those those number right? >> Yeah. So like this like this here like

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right here this is would be this list here. So I pull down the list right and then I have to go over and pull down these list. Now here's another table. There's seven different tables just for this one thing. >> Okay. I hope this helps. My understanding is at this point

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I don't think I don't know. All right. At this point, I know I don't care and I'm hearing that Lucas doesn't care how this works yet. >> Yeah. >> So, what we're looking at is where we

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start because you know, you've got all this stuff that um >> like So, let me just say this. Say you wanted to look at your garage to make it easy right? >> Yeah.

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I just lost my train of thought because um >> what's going to be funny is I never have any. >> So So isn't it is it wouldn't to get the Lucas's end to grab >> Well, I'm saying >> and compare contrast and compare >> the GFL. So you're going to find them to

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be different. >> No, they're all going to be identical. >> No, wait. >> The initial >> GFL if we build homes. >> Oh, yes. Yes. But these two numbers, these two numbers are what changes. In other words, you got GFL

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and it's $83.62. Those are going to be different, >> right? >> But GFL always equals 111. What changes this is this the condition >> the 1.0 or 2. >> Correct? >> Right. cuz that'll change with the

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>> so that in other words if we knew the codes what they meant and what the dollar value is then we can understand this that's that's my is that I think

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>> there's a code there's a starting code GFL GFU there's a starting code there's a starting code that you use I'm not worried about depreciation or you know >> condition and all that >> condition >> unless we're looking at numbers like condition Z factor is 4.25.

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You know, condition one, condition 75, whatever. >> And someone should take that pile. >> We would be >> I'll take idiots if we were picking on things, >> right? And then and then you have to there's other factors too that might affect that like your neighborhoods and stuff. So that's another whole list. >> What I'm saying is we shouldn't be

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looking at that level >> and I don't think we >> looking at the starting point every code. >> That's what I'm looking for. >> Not sure what you mean. all the conditions and neighborhood and all that. >> But when you're asking for the cost tables, that's all that's in there though because they are

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>> just the base. >> Just the base. >> Yeah. So, there isn't just a base though. That's what I'm trying to say. Like it it all depends. Like when I went through all these, there was like seven different base things for different um items. So, I don't know

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which one is >> from an operational base. If you type in GFL, it doesn't like I just figured out what GFL is, >> but what I'm think I'm hearing is that when you type in GFL, it doesn't say 111 anywhere.

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>> No, it does not do that. >> I'd like to see that. I'd like to see the software. I don't care if it's after this meeting. So, if you type in hot tub, are you telling me that it just throws random numbers or is it >> No, no, no. Not a random. I guess what I'm saying what I'm hearing is that when

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you type in hot tub, >> it's in there, but it doesn't tell you anything. >> Well, there's a b there's a starting point for the hot tub and this >> but it doesn't tell you. >> Marshall and Swift will give you a base code cost code for that hot tub which is what a number you should be working on.

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And if the hot tub is and that's in there somewhere. >> I get that that it's in there, >> but programs don't always show you it. >> Exactly. >> In other words, you type in hot tub and it says, "Yeah, I'm happy." You type in 100 square f feet and then it shows up the price in the extension.

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>> Well, I'd like to see that on the on the computer if we got to go. >> The question is though, does that require someone else to figure it out? Because if you're using it every day, you wouldn't need to you you know what I'm saying,

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>> right? So So it's a software program. So all of these codes in all the cost tables >> are buried like I don't know I'm not a programmer. They're all programmed in a certain way, right? It's a program. So they're they're working off of each other. How they're doing that I don't

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know. I'm not a programmer and I don't think any one of us could even figure that out >> because that's why we have what I'm hearing is you're not refusing. It's just >> it's not there to give it to you. I'm not refusing anything. I can't print them off to show you

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>> I could come into your office and I could look at it. >> Exactly. But even >> tell me that there might be something. So I'd like to go see it and >> even I can show you what I'm talking about any when we go in. >> So I mean to me it makes sense if we're

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trying to figure out like one property card, right? We want to know what a code means. Okay, we should be able to figure out this job of the assessors is to figure out that place is being properly assessed. And I respect that. Okay, let me get a global view. Let me understand how all of them are potentially

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assessed. >> Yep. >> So, we were fighting for the I was fighting for those property codes for 6 months, Mark. And you were part of those emails which you didn't get involved with. For 6 months, I requested >> D some talk. For 6 months, I requested

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those property card codes. And finally, at the last meeting, she provided us with 50 codes. And then I said, well, I got a bunch more here that are on certain cards. And oh, those are land codes. there's another 150. Then tonight she says, "Well, there's hundreds of codes. What do you mean? We got so far

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this board has got 200 codes." So, when you're a property owner and you look at your property card and you see a 100 different three-digit codes with a dollar sign next to it, you need to know what each code stands for. If it says, you know, BIG, it's built-in garage, you need to know that BIG is a built-in

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garage. And then you can assess your property card and then find possibly find mistakes. >> Well, that we're there now, right? >> Yeah. So, we got >> Well, we got 200. I don't know if >> there's another thing that I think I'm hearing and I'm trying to cuz

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>> I don't know. I hope I'm hearing this right. It sounds like you guys are kind of not on purpose talking past each other, but not connecting. And >> I don't have it like like I said, I just can't. It's impossible for me to print those out.

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>> So, but with the property card codes, Denise, I asked for 6 months for those. It took you six months to provide those to me. Every meeting I was asking for those. You finally gave them to me at the last meeting when I think Jim asked for them as well. It took me six months to get those. There's no reason there is

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no reason to be holding property card codes from the the board. >> But I I got a question though. As far as code public record, they're right here, Lucas. They're on every single card. >> Okay. So, for somebody who's So, ask Peter to read off all three. Well, not Peter. He probably figured out. Ask

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Mark. as mock to read every single three-digit code and tell me what every single three-digit code is. You can't. People look at that. That's why we're here and people can call us. >> People can call. They shouldn't have to call. They should be They should have an outlet where they can go to the page and say, "Okay, here's a list of 200 codes.

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This is a BI. What is a BI on my property card code?" Oh, says built-in garage. Excellent. I got a built-in garage. >> But I'm looking I agree with you, but >> and I shouldn't have to fight for this stuff. When I ask you for it, you should provide it to us. Not just me. It wasn't just me. We were all asking for it. It

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shouldn't take me >> to be on the website and I couldn't get it. >> I didn't say on the website, provide me the codes. I wanted to look through the codes and it took you 6 months to get. >> So, right now, we have 200 codes. >> Do we have more? >> I don't know how many codes we could have. >> What do you mean you don't know? I asked

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you for all the codes. If there's more than 200 codes, you need to provide them to us. Every single code. Oh, look at Mark. I asked him, too. I don't care. Wait wait wait wait a minute cuz I said I said I needed every code. You gave me

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50. Then you gave me 150 later. Those are land codes. >> Okay. But wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Now >> you said that we have 200 codes. >> She provided us with 200. >> Correct. I think what she's saying is I provided with your whole list. I DON'T

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KNOW HOW MANY CODES THERE ARE. I have a count. >> That's fair, isn't it? >> No. That you should know how many codes there are. There should be a list somewhere in the software that says >> what I'm suspecting is >> and people shouldn't have to call. >> There are two lists of codes. >> 6,000 residents shouldn't have to call and say, "What's this mean? What's that mean?"

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>> No. No. And I and I agree with you, but what I'm suspecting is I don't know how many, but there are certain number of codes available that I am guessing are approved list by the Department of

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Revenue because I'm guessing you can't just make up your own codes. Um, no we well we can't to a certain >> they have to be uniform and consistent and >> because department of revenue is going to come down and audit us and if we have our own set of codes they're going to say you know

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>> well doesn't the >> we want you to use ours because other because otherwise they can't do their job. >> Doesn't the valuation company proprietary have their own codes? >> Yes. And they're all similar. >> So I think with the with the codes and I think where the whole finish I wasn't

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done. Sorry. Go ahead. So let's just for sake of fun because we're having so much if the department of revenue to me it would make sense that the department of revenue would have a list of codes that they allow us to use because otherwise

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>> I've checked that it's not as extensive as what we got on the mass website. It's a very short list. >> Now from what I remember from the course whatever software we have is department of revenue official issue software. We

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don't just go out and buy QuickBooks or whatever. It's Department of Revenue has standardized the software. >> Well, well, we use PK, right? The >> No, no. I mean the actual software program that's in our computers. >> Well, PK is an authorized vendor through

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the >> They're all vendors and they're all similar. >> But I'm talking about software, >> right? They're all similar softwares, but they're not the same >> according to the course material. Do you didn't prescribe a specific like computer program? >> That's what they said. >> Really?

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>> Yeah. In the course material, it said that the software was >> No. I mean, I >> DLS supplied. >> I'm familiar with Tom and they use vision and everything makes sense. We've never had issues with codes. Everything just you look at it and it makes sense.

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>> So, I think these codes different codes, >> different towns could have different software. PK is not even in the top two most popular. It's it's like and >> it's and it's Patriot and then >> and then kind of PK then then there's like a couple that are both.

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>> But I guess what I was trying to get to is somewhere and if it's software specific or whatever there's like a master list of codes. I doubt we use them all. >> So we we >> would that be fair? >> Probably. I mean, we probably don't have

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like a island villa or whatever. >> I saw some of the codes on the list and I'm like >> helicopter landing pad. >> So, for example, you know, we're talking about the detach garage. That's probably the most similar code. Probably all the towns use almost the same code. Um,

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garage with a finished loft. It's probably going to be similar, but it might be Guin. So, they might be similar, but not exact. >> Okay. So, there is no they're not uniform. >> No. Okay. No. >> Okay. No, that They are all similar but they are all similar

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>> to the point if we changed vendors they would have their own code system >> that would be the same and some will be different >> and then your cost I mean that's huge that's a huge >> so this Marshall and Swift they so

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someone's got a you know someone's got a uh let's just say someone had a cabana whatever um well let's go back to the pool someone's got a pool there's a dollar amount in there that they recommend for that pool per square foot. So, that's what I'm looking for. That's what I was hoping to get cuz cuz then

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the assessor can then say the next guy's got the same exact size tool, but she can change the >> There's two steps. There's two steps. And >> what I'm thinking is >> the best way to get to the bottom of it

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is for you guys to sit down and say, "There it is. What do you want me to do? I want this." Okay. or I don't know how to, you know, whatever. It's see because it >> So, if you got an 8 by10 shed and Rick's got an 8 by10 shed and I got an 8 by10 shed, >> I agree with you.

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>> I feel like that 8 by10 shed should be valued roughly the same. >> I agree with you. >> Okay. But you should be allowed as the assessor. I go in there and say, "Well, instead of 20 bucks a foot, I'm going to go 40 bucks a foot." >> We can't We can't do that. It's impossible. >> You can sit down. You got to sit down at

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the actual computer and see for yourself. So I think that's the only way or >> I can't change the values in there. I don't have access to that. >> What I think he's looking at, you start at the end that stack and compare and contrast and see.

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>> Oh, I've done plenty of comparisons on to see how the cake is. >> Correct. >> Yeah. And just >> and that will field trip to the >> I've seen plenty of garages. >> I mean, I can show them. >> I've done plenty of that and I see huge

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discrepancies. huge discrep where do we stop? >> I'd say stop that. >> Well, yeah, I got >> I don't It can't be propri because >> that's what I >> This is a public record that we're >> and we just figured out what that code means.

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>> Their cost tables are the codes are proprietary >> and all we care about are the cost tables are >> That's fine. We >> We're not even thinking about that. Well, that's what he's looking for is a cost table. >> No, no, no. He's looking for the value of each code, >> which is a cost. That's what That's what

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a cost table is. >> But it's a public record. It's printed on all these pages. >> It is a public record. And I confirmed it with tables out of PK. A proprietary. >> We hire PK. >> Is that the right word? >> We pay PK. >> Okay. >> We're entitled to those codes and

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evaluations. >> No. If it's proprietary, we can't even get them >> as a member of the board. We can't get them. Because PK has them. We don't even have them. >> Has access to them, but we don't have access to them. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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no. >> Well, we know one thing. We know that GFL is $111 and it's public record. We know that. >> It's right there printed. >> How do we know? >> And we know what GF with a GFL isn't

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120. >> Well, it might depend. We got to take this whole stack and go through it. Check >> all the depreciation stacks different on each each >> don't matter. We got to each take a third of this. We got to punish ourselves because you got to have skin

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in the game and you look at every single GFL and figure it out and put the number there. And if we can find that GFL is all over the board, then we can talk about it. But I think we're going to find GFL is 111. >> Sit there on a rain day. I love that stuff. So,

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>> I'll take a third. I need >> scan to AI. >> I feel like if you, you know, >> I don't know if that would be able to do that. >> I need AI to rip through that thing in two hours. You know, it's not that's easy. So, I just think like these

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numbers and if you I think we could also say Lloyd Circle, all brand new homes. I've done this. I've done this on several neighborhoods. All brand new homes. Let's print out all the property cards. And then I see I'll see discrepancies and be like, "Okay, brand

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new home, all 20, 30, whatever, 44 brand new homes." The property cards all over the place. The numbers, the codes are all same code. House is right next to each other. The dollar amounts are different all over the map. And and if you look, >> is that reflected from the next two columns though?

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So, I've looked at grade. I've looked at condition, you know, but if you're looking at brand new homes, there shouldn't be huge discrepancies in in those dollar amounts. >> I agree. Three homes. >> We're going to get to any kind of conversation that we can do something with

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>> is to each of us take a third of these suffer all the way through it and then we have actual data. >> Yeah, I can. Is this an academic exercise or is there some productive ends?

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>> I in my mind the productive end is we actually understand each other and are working on the same page >> cuz when I see you know certain things when I see in-law apartments being

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valued at the same price per square foot as garages I I think that's a I think that's a problem. And then you got other garages which are six times less value. Very similar garage. And so two garages, same same type of garage, one's a little

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nicer than the other, six times more. One guy's 30 bucks a foot, one guy's 180 bucks a foot. Then you got another guy on the other side of town who's got a a garage that's declared in law and it's the same 180. >> You have a problem with PK's.

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>> It's not just PK, Mark. It's your assessor. It's not just PK. Okay. So, it's your assessor. It's not possibility. >> Okay. Well, I'm just I'm just giving you facts. So, >> but you know, when I see when I see one's an in-law and one's a garage, they shouldn't be valued at the same. One is

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an accessory building, one is an in-law which you can live in and you can rent. They should not be valued at the same square foot price. >> I agree, but we have to talk specifics. >> And I'm trying to get specifics when I ask for the cost codes. How much is a build? How much is an accessory

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building? What is the recommended square foot price that this >> We have the codes and the meetings. We've got these. We don't have the cost. We could back all the cost out of all of these. Or if the software has a way of just

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showing it, we can do it. What I'm hearing is if the software has a way of just bringing that up, you don't know where it is. I'd like to look at there. But it's like when you pull up one drop down menu >> when you drop down one, it has a drop down menu on one column.

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>> Then it has another drop down menu. >> So I'll go in the office if we have to go in the office and we can open it up and look at it. >> That'll be a lot easier. I mean >> I can show them what I'm talking about because it's it's very difficult to figure it out. >> Session and

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>> let's try >> maybe it takes 15 minutes. We're done. Or maybe >> that >> it doesn't we have to schedule another session. >> Maybe we can block out an hour for three of us common time and and try that. >> I mean, I got no problem downloading this Marshall and Swift software too if I got to pay just

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>> I don't think we I think the whole what I'm hearing is that there should be a place where we go. It shows us all the codes and it shows us all the >> dollar amounts. >> Yes. Dollar amounts. >> Okay. And I agree with that. >> Engineer this whole pile.

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>> What I'm hearing on this other side is that might be there, but I've never gone there. >> No, I I I know it's there, but when you when you see it, like you have your drop down menu, say there's 10 in that drop down, then it has goes to another column and there's more drop downs, but which

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drop downs go to which? That's all in the software program >> two different things. >> So that's because that's what you're doing, which should be is you're inputting, >> right? That's completely different than I guess what he's saying is you're reading the book. He's talking about the

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appendix. >> Yeah. I don't I don't touch that part of it. >> Does that sound what you're hearing? >> And all the codes might not be compatible with each other and you know does some of them work with each other, some of them don't. Now we're talking software program. >> Well, that's what I'm trying to say. Some program some of these codes don't

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go to all the it's all different we should be looking at. I think we're getting in the thickest thin thing thin things, >> right? That's what I'm trying to say. There's so many codes and some go to some, some go other ones. They don't all go together. >> So, if I, you know, just to do a

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different example, if we use um like say we do an insurance claim and a house burns down and we use Exacttoate software, okay, you go to Exacttoimate and you say, "Okay, I have a um you know, drywall dry, there's a code, there's drywall, there's a dollar amount for drywall,

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>> right? The adjusters can adjust that. They can go up and down. It's the same idea. The chimney chimney build. Chimney build is a dollar amount. Exactate recommends a dollar amount. >> Certain insurance companies will lower that dollar amount to lower their estimates. Some will raise it.

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>> But what if when you sit down to put this card in, you you go out in the field, you draw a say it's new, you take a picture, you draw this, you get that. Now you sit down at the computer and you got to get this in there. >> Mhm. What if you type in

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GFL >> and it doesn't tell you because you don't need to know. >> That's what I'd like to see. >> Okay. With Exactoate, >> I've seen where oh, we got a 2025 version of Exactoate. >> Okay. My adjust my my public adjust got

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the same version, but the insurance company has a different valuation because they can manually lower that valuation >> like an estimating program. Yeah. You need the number. You type it in, it comes up with a number and you and you go all the way through and all that. But

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if you're an assessor, you sit down with software that has everything figured in and you say, "Well, I've got so many square feet. That's that's garage with a finished loft GFL." And then you say, "Okay, it's

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um average condition." You put that in. It probably puts in the 1.0 automatically. >> Yep. >> And then you say it's 25 years old. You type that in. It puts in the 75. It does this. The 111's in there. >> Mhm. >> But you don't care.

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>> There's adjustments for a depreciation. >> No, no, no. What I'm saying is the 111 is in there. You don't care. You don't need to see it. You're just You're doing what you're supposed to do. You're typing in a code and the information and letting the software do it because

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estimating it be different because >> we should rely more on the software. >> Well, what I'm hearing is I think that's what's happening. >> It's all software. That's all we do. >> All we do is just data entry basically. >> What I'm hearing is and I could be wrong. >> We're not >> and I'm willing to go through a third of

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these. But we're not um strictly using software when you got >> homes in town that some some go down in value, some go up 30%. >> But you can't you can't say that we're using software. Software does not say the market increased 30% on >> But to say that you have to take a third

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of this pile to prove it. >> I will. >> No. And I I don't I didn't I wasn't double dam. >> Here's here's where I'd like to just add. I think >> Does that make sense? I think so. >> I think the assessor, Jim, I think the

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assessor in Denise's department >> only has the ability to enter maybe a third or half or 60% and then the software does the calculations behind that. >> We do all the data entry. Um the the

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cost tables that we're talking about, those are locked. I can't touch those. So you're saying puts those values in there. >> Increase increase anything. You can't manually increase something. >> I can't I can't change those numbers. I can't go in the valuation of a home. >> I cannot go into the cost tables and change the numbers.

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>> Okay. So, you can't change the cost tables. Can you change the bottom line of a valuation? >> It all depend. Um, no. It depends what's there. Like, I have to put in what's there. I can't just go in and change. >> That's what you're saying. I think you're saying either PK or the assessing department has the ability to override

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the the the number that shows up on the screen. Well, they can manually they can absolutely change the assessments 100%. Absolutely. >> No, I can't. >> That's the disagreement. >> So, when we say when we say a home goes up 5%, market went up 5%. >> Yeah. >> And then I find 10 homes that went up 20

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plus%. That's putting your finger on the scale. That's changing the numbers. That home didn't go up 20%. That neighborhood didn't go up 20%. That specific home went up 20%. 25%. >> You find it easier to blame a person than a computer. I blame the person who's in charge of that office because

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that computer did not mark that up 20%. >> Comput exactly. >> If it went up 20% then there was changes on that account that that that did that. >> Let's let's go to our last abatement 60 Reservoir Street

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>> sold 1.8 8 valued at 2.17 went up $270,000 in or almost $300,000 in less than a year. So that home and then we abated it this year. So that home went up $300,000 with zero changes, zero permits, nothing

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nothing done to the house. And that's just one example. I got tons of trust and that's and that's like a a massive compared the 5 to 8% or whatever the town says that the market's going up. >> See me I would think computers have glitches and they're not going to get it

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right. >> There's a lot of glitches. So when I find a lot of those glitches pop up when I see multiple homes like certain certain homes going up at 5% 7% wait a second this guy went up 25%. Maybe maybe

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to your No, maybe to to his point maybe it's homes that were valued at one point cuz Jordan Norton doesn't have 1.5 1.6. >> So the algorithm So the algorithm >> because negative goes right because because I

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find other homes I find other homes I've done I've done a lot of I've done a lot of this um um homework on this. Then I find other homes that are valued in the same same range that are not going up at the same rate. They're not going up 20%. They're going up 5% or 3% probably in

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line with the market. >> Let me explain again how we do assessments. Every year we reassess. So for FY27, we're looking at all the sales from 25. We can also look at the last quarter

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of 24 and the first quarter of 26 because we need to have so many homes um per the state to get the values. So when we're looking at the values which I go through >> the required cyclical inspection >> which is everything

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>> but no this is so our our our values our values are based on the sales right >> but what I'm saying is you don't actually do it we hire a subcontractor to do it for us. >> Yeah. That's I'm not even talking about the inspection part of it. I'm just talking about how we do the values every year.

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>> No wait. Don't they feed us all the numbers and everything? >> PK. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They do all of this. That's what I'm trying to explain. >> So, I guess what I'm saying is everything that PK does >> is by the market. >> If something's wrong, it's not this

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office, it's PK. Correct. Correct. And we and we do go through it. >> And I don't know. I mean, we got to pay PK a significant amount of money. Like, why don't we bring them to one of these meetings >> and >> bring them in? So PK doesn't hit every property every year. So, you know, so

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no, a 10th. >> Every 10 years hit the property. So, so PK's. Okay. So, to put to put this on PK is kind of a cop thing. >> I'm not putting it on. >> So, let me finish explaining. Let me just finish explaining. So, we get the sales, right? Um, and you're saying,

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well, some areas go up 10%, some areas will go up, >> individual homes. >> Let me finish talking. It's my turn to talk now. Oh, so we're looking when we're looking at those sales, we're looking at the the size of the house, the style of the

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house, the neighborhood, um all different kind of factors that's that are in there that are in that list of stuff that so many of them. We're looking at all of that and that is what adjusts. So, say like one year colonials went up 10%. Which does happen. So all

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the colonials went up 10%, but wait a minute, the colonials in this neighborhood only went up 5%. So that's going to change that neighborhood and in this neighborhood they went up 3%. So there's so many different factors with going on in these different neighborhoods. That's why you're seeing every house go up at a different value.

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>> But we can't do any of that. >> We don't do that. That's all in the system. So what happens is PK says, "Okay, this neighborhood," and that's where I'm talking about all these different factors, right? All these codes that are in the program. Okay, this neighborhood has all these different factors. I'm saying 10%, but

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these factors are going to bring it down to 5%. And this is what's going on through everything. >> And I understand what Denise is saying, but when I when I have proven in the past, I say, "Okay, there's 15 homes, Capes in >> Ranches." Let's just say Capes. Well, I'm going to say Capes cuz that's what

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it was. 15 homes in a circle. This guy in the middle, not you, Rick. This guy in the middle, his home went down. These homes all went up at 10 to 15%. Okay. This guy in the middle is the former chairman of this board. So that

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is putting on the scale. So when I say these are all similar homes. You can't say it's regional or it's by street. Okay. Shake your head Mark if you want. This is what goes on in this town. >> 15 homes. Very simil similar homes. >> I don't know what you're talking about, Lucas. You have no idea. >> Zip it.

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>> 15 homes. You got one home in the middle. That home is very similar to those 15 homes, but this guy gets a reduction in his value >> because of the inspection we were over >> in front of us. >> We were overvaluing them. >> So my question to go back to the to the

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root if we could get PK and you say there's 200 codes in cost. You >> that's what she sent. Apparently she didn't send us all. No, no, wait a minute. What I'm hearing is I sent you all the codes, >> right?

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>> You're saying there's 200 codes. She's saying I don't know how many there are. I mean, >> she sent She sent us 200, >> right? >> The rest, you know, who knows how many. >> What she's saying is you counted there's 200. She didn't count. >> I didn't I didn't count the 200. >> Oh, I don't know. >> She sent me 50 originally, but you said I'm looking at what are we looking for?

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>> PK knows what's been. >> This is what I recommend. I agree. PK knows how many codes, right, that they've that that have been entered in. Wouldn't they know? >> They might not know the total codes. I mean, they might. I mean, I don't know

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what they do. I have no idea. >> And they're just a tool. There's not a They're not an ends to themselves, the codes. It's just one factor, >> but it's finite. The the program is finite. So, they're going to be able to figure out, >> but if they log into their software, they say property codes is gonna

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eventually is going to come an end of their two list. So, one list is how many codes there are. The other list is how many do we use? We don't care about them. Exactly. We only care about the ones we use. This is a question that affects the home's valuation and know and that's what we

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>> No, but I think you may find >> I mean, I'm sure there's a code for liquid hydrogen storage tanks and I'm guessing we don't use it. So, we don't need that one. >> What you might do is >> we do use it. I don't know. >> We don't put those codes in unless we use it at some point. >> Correct. you know um and then what I'm

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saying but then sometimes eventually those go away we don't like >> right >> you know like I don't know >> can I make a recommendation and >> yeah sure >> I think do some catching up you've been correct >> next next step would be if we could gave maybe meet the three of us and maybe

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have PK you could um maybe they can't make the meeting but if we could have questions >> sure >> that we can get answered such as how many codes do they use how how many codes are, you know, 80% of the codes

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are or I mean 80% are uh equal 100 codes and so forth. Um 5 years ago we used these four codes. We haven't used them in six years. >> Yeah. I mean we usually do like like for instance like we used to have Jacuzzi tubs. When I started I took them all

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off. >> They don't add value to a house in my opinion. So I took them all off. So we don't use that code anymore. >> All right. So, did you take that off or did PK >> like >> I took I took it off. I talked to them and we took it off cuz it there was no >> But you don't you can't take it off. >> But I thought you couldn't make

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adjustments to the coach. >> But you can't take it off. >> She just said she took it off. >> No, but she Well, she said, >> she just said she took it off. >> Did Right. So, I think that's the best first step

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>> to the Jacuzzi tub. The code should be H for hamper because that's what people use them for. >> That's why I took them off. >> Yeah. Freestanding. Same thing. Hamper. >> Um I do want to meet in the office and see these. You agree? >> I think that could be helpful.

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>> I think we should look at some software. Yeah. >> All right. So that'd be a first step. You agree? >> And I'll download this Marshall and Swift if that's what we're using or you know. >> So why don't we do that? Um let's try to see if we can do that in the next what two weeks is that >> whenever you guys want. I'm around this month.

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>> Your schedule? >> Well, I'm pretty much not around for the rest of the month, but um >> so the beginning of August? >> Yeah. >> I mean, if you want, we can even do it after the meeting. We can go in and do it real quick. It's up to you guys. >> I think I think you could call it an unforeseen.

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>> I think we need that came up and call it an executive session and >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. >> It's almost a chance social meeting, >> but if if it's Marshall, it's the software we're using. So I, you know, I'll >> No, that's not the software you That's what

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use that. >> PK valuation uses the Marshall and Swift cost manual, >> right? >> Cost manual. >> They use a cost manual. >> That's kind of like if you use estimating software and they use RS means. So the software would be whoever you bought it from and they base it off

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RS means, >> right? So they're saying Marshall and Swift is saying a GFL is $111 a square foot. That's what it's starting off at. So >> Well, I don't That's what that's what I'm guessing. And then they're going from there. So, >> all right. >> And then adjust from there. >> All right. So, why don't we um try to

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target the first or second week in August. We can get some questions, go into your office, or could we bring it in here and have us >> No, no, I don't think so. I think you're going to >> All right. Just do it. >> Huh? >> Tonight at the end of the meeting. >> Well, we can at least get some

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information, right? Get a better I guess. I think what I need what I need is just a better idea of how it works. >> I think you need PK's input. >> It could be in the >> I don't think when you see it, I don't

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think you're going to need PK's input when you when I show you what what I'm talking about. >> Okay. >> I mean, you can. >> All right. You know. >> All right. So, let's uh let's see if we can do that. um we could maybe take a quick pass after this and then uh from that we'll we'll make a decision going

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forward. You okay with that? >> Oh, I'm I'm perfectly fine. >> Okay. And you sure? All right. Um All right. So topic number five is just the last topic. Uh PK valuation contract.

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>> So PK stands for Paul Cabina. I just learned something. >> I saw the finance committee last week. They made a recommendation for what was it? 100 grand. >> That's not what it was. >> The finance committee meeting on Monday night. You were there. >> It was a end of

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>> It said something the assessors make a recommendation for PK. >> I think that was an incumbrance. So money that was allocated to this year's budget that needs that has not yet been spent but will be spent. >> Okay. this. >> Thank you.

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>> So, it's around 100,000. See the 95 stuff. >> The contract, I believe, was 105, but I think we're trying to only pay 95. >> Okay. >> Right. It's 110. They're only charging us 95. Finish some stuff.

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>> So, it's not it's not a request. >> No, it's a contract that was done a couple years ago, >> right? This is the third year. Second or third? >> Second year. So, we're going into our third year now. >> Second year of a three-year contract. Okay. >> So they just that's repeat.

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>> So this year it's going to be 95. >> If you don't process the money by the end of June 30th, they they carry it over. >> So 2027 is the last year we're in contract with them, >> right? >> They ask to go out to bid. >> Okay.

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>> Yeah. Because it's over 50,000 that needs to go out to bed. >> All right. All right. Um, >> that's because of chapter 30B, which Kyle Jacobs explained to me as a communist law. >> He was a highway superintendent many

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years ago. >> All right. And then just um there are two other topics Denise wanted to talk about tonight. >> Oh. >> Uh, one of them was 15 L Street. Um, we talked about it in past, but just bring us up to date. >> Um, yeah. So this one, so we have a

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couple of um these were abatements that um commercial abatements that were denied. Um so this one, the first one I have is 15 Leonard Street, which is the first warehouse on Leonard Street. Um Whitney Bose was

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in there. They left. So they've been vacant. Most of the building is vacant. >> Correct. >> So they found an abatement. We denied it. Um, so >> now it's going to go to the ATB. >> So instead of going to the ATB, the ATB

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likes to try to settle these before they get to that point. Um, so if we can try to settle this one. And just to give you an idea to go to the ATB, we have to have an um an appraisal done, which is somewhere between 10 and $15,000 for a

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commercial abatement. >> Mhm. Then the lawyer cost. Talking to the lawyer, he said that's going to be like a maybe not this one, but some of the other ones could be like two, three days at court. So they're talking like anywhere from 2030,000 in court costs. So now we're up to like, you know,

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whatever 30 40 $50,000 just to go to the ATB. So on this one on 15 Leonard Street, um we've been going back and forth with them trying to do a settlement. Um they're valued at like 22

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million I think. They wanted to go down to um $18 million and I said no. We'd go to 20 million and they said no. So, we're at the point we're at like 19 to come right into the middle, which would be for tax dollars

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to abate it would be about 40,000, which is still under the um cost to go to the ATB. >> So, I want to speak to this because we already denied these. >> Oh, let me just say one more thing. Can

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I say one more thing? I'm not done yet. And when we because Jim doesn't isn't aware of this. I don't think you are either, Lucas. You're all probably aware of it when we go to the ATB. So, I don't do the commercial work. I only do residential because I'm not a commercial person. Go. So, we have to have the lawyers. We go to the ATB and

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the lawyer explained this to me and I knew exactly what he was saying because it happens when we go. You go to the ATB. You can still do this. You can still spend all this money going there. And the town has their value, the company has their value. 90% of the time, according to the lawyer with the

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commercial ones, they will come somewhere in the middle. They will not give us our value. They will not give them their value. They will come up with their own value. So, not only are you going to spend all that money going to the ATV, you're still going to do an abatement

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to the company. >> Can we talk about the other property? >> Do you know what they do? You know what the occupancy is? >> Um, they only have out of 80 they have >> vacancies got me a little worried. >> They have I don't know what their square

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footage is. Oh, they have 123 124,000 square ft. >> Only 37,000 is um filled right now. >> Yeah. Aren't they >> because Py Bose had over 88,000 foot of that and they're not there anymore? >> Yeah. >> So, what do you cash value?

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>> So, you're recommending we go to 40. >> I So, on this one here, >> um they wanted 25, 26, and 27. 25. They're not going to get any. >> Oh, I know. Jim, I want to um bring you up to speed on this one. >> I know where she's recommended. She recommended to at the last abatements

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and we denied it. >> So, this property, I think, if I remember right, sold for 36 million. We had it assessed at low 20s and Denisa recommended an abatement on this property originally and we denied it. So, >> which was you said 20, right?

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>> And then >> 30 36 million was for more than one. >> So, this is >> No, no, no. But I mean 22 was where we're at and you suggested 20. >> I suggested 20. They wanted 18. >> There was several of these that came in front of us. A lot of them are from the

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same company. So when we discussed this at our previous um meeting, Mark was there and we denied one of them. We denied most of them. So and I had made the point that this property sold for $36 million and we had it assessed over

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$10 million under the sale price, which is a recent sale price. And then so I said, and then Denise had said, "It's going to cost us more money to fight it." And then Mark, I said, "Mark, what are your thoughts?" And you said, "I think there's something to be said for not rolling over for these attorneys."

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That's exactly your words. And I agree with that 100%. I said, "How much is it going to cost to fight this?" You said, "10 grand." And I said, "And if we give this abatement," he said, "About 90 grand." Excellent. Let's deny it. I don't feel like we should be giving these massive commercial properties huge

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tax breaks, multi-million dollar abatements because the town is afraid to fight these. So, this isn't even the worst one. The worst one was the next one on the agenda. When >> Okay, >> but we'll get to that after. But, so if you got a property that sold for $36

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million with the commercial, you got three approaches. You got the cost approach, you got >> sale, >> the sale price, and the cost of build. So the bill for 36 million >> and then and then what's that >> replacement? >> Yeah, replacement. >> Did it sell for 36 million?

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>> Sold for 36 million and current value was just one. >> No, that's we need to get to the bottom of that. >> Yeah, that that's >> what sold for 36 million. >> I believe it was both warehouses. Well, I don't know what the other one was. So it's more than one. >> 15 36 million.

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>> No. Yeah. No, when you look at the card, it says it's more than one. It was a um portfolio which means it's more than one >> because there was 15 lenard and there was 19 lenard. We had two of them on the agenda for >> 19 len was a different one. That was a different 15. >> So we're talking about 15 Leonard.

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>> Yep. >> And it sold for 36 million. Yes. As a portfolio >> and >> Okay. Now that's what I mean. That's the question. Did that building alone sell for 36 million? No. >> That's Well, if you could print that out um maybe you can print out the property

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card for that building. Just that 15 L. >> Yep. Right here. >> So, >> so where it says, see where it says um V. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, these are codes when they sell would be a QS, which is a quality

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sale. A V means it's a portfolio sale, which when it comes over, that's how the deed is. >> Okay. >> So, that property code says 15 len strictly 15 lard. >> Mhm. >> So, what is the other building that was part of that portfolio? >> We don't know that. It could be in the deed. I'm not sure, but it wasn't

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>> that information for a different >> We've already denied these and I don't think we should be looking at these again. We've already discussed this. We already denied this. Both of these properties are bringing up tonight and it should be in the hands of the appellet and and the attorney to to work

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it out to the appellant. We don't give the taxpayers and the residences the same um same, you know, deal. So when the taxpayers or the the homeowners want to fight, you're glad to take them to Boston and fight them and beat them up. But when the

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commercial properties, oh, they got a high pirate of attorney, so they can fight. It's going to cost us money. Hey, listen. So maybe if we win a couple of these, they'll stop filing these stupid abatements. You got a property that's $14 million under its sale price, and you want to give them another abatement? I mean, I don't know. No issue to me. Well, then you're going to have to go to

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a town meeting and ask for money to get the um money to get the to do the um appraisal and for the lawyer costs because we're not we probably don't have that money in the overlay by the time all these new exemptions are done. >> We're like skating right on the like the

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edge of litigation strategy which I hesitate to to completely you know talk about. >> But we've already decided these cases so why are we looking at them again? We already decided to deny these abatements and send them to the appellet. I'm not I have zero interest in now approving them

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and going against our previous board. >> I'm just trying to explain to you it's probably going to cost you more money at the end. >> Okay. You said last time you said the last time we argued this. >> I think we're there. >> Well, litigation strategy. That's >> Yeah, that's that's executive session.

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>> I I agree. I think we're there. I don't >> This is We've got to go into executive session. We shouldn't talk about this in open session. They could be they could be watching our strategy. >> That's true.

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>> I agree. Um, then we have the other property. >> So, go to the executive and let's wrap it up. I mean, we already discussed these. We already voted on these. We've already sent these to the, you know, we've already denied these properties. I I see no reason why we need to even discuss them, but I'm happy to discuss

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them. But again, we've already, you know, previous board denied these two properties. So okay >> at the recommendation >> I'd like to chair would have to declare that you'd have to vote to go into it. >> So >> uh Mr. Chairman yes

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>> I make a motion to enter executive session for the purpose of discussing litigation strategy um not to return to open session uh report may or may not be forthcoming. >> Did I do that right? >> Is there a second?

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>> Second. >> Okay. All those in favor? >> I >> I Okay.