Good evening everyone. Welcome to the Tuesday, October 21st meeting of the Norton Planning Board. The public is welcome to participate in person and remotely. We are here in person at the Norton Town Hall at 72 East Main Street in the Crane Room. You
may join remotely via Zoom at the address listed in the agenda. You can also email questions to town staff as listed in the agenda. I will call this meeting to order and note that all six members of the planning board are here
and in person. As far as planning board business and policies, I'll save that to the end of the meeting as to not bore everybody that's in front of us. Uh Brian, do we have any bills to pass down? We have a couple bills as usual to sign. And Brian
did send out a set of a bunch of different minutes from a bunch of different months. Um, I did not read them yet. So, let's just plan on voting on those in the next meeting, please. First item on our public hearing and agenda is the modification to a special
permit MSP-6 for 20 Commerce Way. The owner is Al Nland Pharmaceuticals. The applicant is PAR Corporation. The applicant is seeking to construct two building additions with a total of more than 10,000 square ft.
Good evening. And >> yes, right up to the and and chair, if I could just I just wanted to make a disclosure that um uh my nephew actually works for Al Nylam and Norton. Uh I did speak with the state ethics uh lawyer of
the day who told me to file a disclosure form with the clerk and uh and I filed it with the clerk and the uh select board. And >> I think that's unacceptable. We just have to go home early tonight. >> Yeah. Don't we have to call for the
whole meeting? >> Bye. >> Thank you. >> That's all. >> Yeah. >> Good evening. >> Good evening. I am Serena Bodner with All Island Pharmaceuticals. Um and >> can you just get a little closer? I >> Hi. Better.
>> Better bend it too. Yeah, it'll bend. >> Serena Bodner with All Nylon Pharmaceuticals. Um, and I'm here today with my civil engineers from Power Corporation and also some members of our construction team with Commodore Builders. Um, so, uh, we have a a short
presentation to go through and I wanted to start with just some a brief introduction and then, um, I'll hand it over to, um, our civil engineer. So, if you don't mind going to the next slide. Um, so quick overview of Alnumm. Um, next slide.
So our Norton facility is um the location where is the first step of our manufacturing process in bringing products to patients. Um and so we are here today to request uh a special permit modification approval for that
facility. Next slide. One more. Um so we're planning a small expansion to our manufacturing facility and so um that's the reason for the special permit request approval modification request.
Next slide. Um so I'd like to introduce uh Chris Weber with Power Corporation um to go through the rest of the deck. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Uh good evening everyone. My name is Chris Weber. I'm an engineer at Park Corporation out of Foxboro. Um just
wanted to open up this review by briefly touching on the previous 2016 um site plan modification we see in front of us right now. Um wanted to bring this up as a result of kind of the phasing that was discussed in the site plan modification.
Um you can see in red the phase 1 building and in red the phase 1 parking that was previously proposed. Um this does represent the currently constructed constructed condition. um looking at about 124,000 square feet for the building, about 156 parking spaces. Um
what you see in blue here um was noted as future work as phase 2 work in that site plan modification. So at the south you see a 28,000 ft building and a about 55 parking spaces supporting that. um wanted to bring this up in specific
because the storm water basin you see at the very right hand corner of the plans. Um to our understanding was designed with both these phases in mind. Um so while that phase 2 building and parking hasn't been constructed to this date that storm water basin was designed and
sized with these future expansions in mind. Next slide. Um, so to briefly go over kind of the overview of what we're proposing tonight, um, at the southernmost portion of this, you can see a manufacturing
addition where that previously proposed phase 2 building was. Um, over on the plan northwest corner, we have a frozen storage and loading area addition being proposed. And over on the plan east side, um we
have a proposed parking area kind of sharing that footprint of that phase 2 parking. Um to go over the manufacturing addition first, um as I noted before, um the previously approved future building expansion there is about 28,000
square ft. Um on the right, we can see the manufacturing addition currently being proposed, which is about 6,000 square ft. Um, of note, um, the proposed manufacturing addition now utilizes all the same storm water piping and
ultimately feeds out to that same basin we saw previously. Um, basically we are dealing with a smaller footprint here. As such, we believe this work doesn't really exceed the design considerations from that 2016 plan set
and the basin should be able to support this without any issue. Move the next slide. Um, moving back up to that frozen storage area. Um, you can see on the left hand side, this was previously also part of the loading dock area prior. Um,
what we're looking at now is basically an addition on top of a portion of that loading dock area with kind of a new concrete apron to the left of it. Um, what's being proposed here is entirely on existing impervious surfaces. Um as such there's effectively no change in
impervious area on site here and all the drainage patterns in this area are being maintained. We're ultimately utilizing an existing catch basin and connect into the system. Next slide. Um and moving over to the parking area finally. Um obviously you can see here
that we are effectively mimicking the previously approved condition. The only change we're showing between that previously approved future parking area and what's currently being proposed is a small addition of an access lane just to help out parking circulation a bit. Um,
as it stands, what we're currently proposing, uh, ultimately ends up with about an addition of 30 parking spaces on site. Um, of note in this area too, we're not only are we utilizing kind of the existing storm water system we talked about before, they've actually already installed the catch basins being
used for this parking area. So, we're basically paving around those existing catch basins and utilizing them for exactly what they were designed for even originally. Next slide. Um, finally, I just wanted to go over the parking requirements real quickly
just to demonstrate that as it stands with those two building additions, we're currently looking about 179 spaces required. Um, with that at parking edition, we're going up to 185 proposed spaces. There is no change in accessible
spaces as a result of this because the ADA requirement between 151 and 200 isn't altered as a result of this. Um but yeah, like I said, we are proposing a new parking here just to support the new footprint and any potential new employees that end up
being hired as a result of it. But um that just about concludes my presentation. Happy to field any questions on the matter. >> Thank you, Chris. Uh couple initial questions. Since you're not touching the storm water system, you do not have to go in front of conservation. Correct. >> That is our intention. Yes.
>> And and Paul, conservation's re reviewed this >> brief. >> Yes. And and just to confirm, uh, the conservation director said we didn't need to have a storm water review done. >> Correct. Um, and fires looked at this, too. I I didn't look in the system to
see if it's been checked off. Usually, we make sure fire is checked off their box in the system. Mr. Griffin's looking for me. >> It says in process in progress. It just doesn't have the final uh check mark.
There's no comments from the fire chief. >> Any conversations with the fire department? >> Uh, not to my knowledge at this time. That being said, I would not consider any of our proposed work really a change to relevant turning movements for safety around the site for the fire department. >> I if anything, they actually added a cut
through from the previous design. >> Correct. >> Um, I have no other questions. Any members of the board have any questions, comments, concerns to Mr. Griffin, um the area that you're going to be developing, is it currently
already impervious or is it grass or >> talking about kind of the area that's planned south of the building right now where that future expansion was >> where the future expansion, the new parking >> currently? Right now, that area is being used as temporary contractor parking. So, it is paved at the moment. Um, I
think it's owner difference at the end of the day how exactly they want to handle that. But for the moment, it supports plus minus 22,000 square feet of impervious area by their current proposed plans. Final condition, I would expect crush stone, but I don't think the owners determined that.
>> Okay. No, I think the the question was if if you felt like you were overparked, that would be something that we could >> No. Yeah. Right now, I think temporarily right now they have parts of that area striped, but I think it's for contractor parking specifically. So, one would
assume that in the long term condition that would go away to some degree. >> That was all I had. So, >> uh my only other question I guess Paul is for you. Our only vote tonight will be to modify the special permit. >> No waiverss being asked for. Nothing
else that we'll have to vote on other than modifying the special permit. >> Correct. Do we have to first find that it's a minor modification and then vote on it? >> Well, this was already noticed. So, >> this would not be because it's over
they're adding >> Yeah. >> two buildings around 10,000 square feet. >> It was noticed. Thank you. I >> Y >> if there's no other questions from the board, I'll go to members of the public in person or remote if there's anyone has a question. We'll give it a minute. I don't see any
hands online yet. I don't see anyone running to the microphone to knock Chris over. Sometimes it takes a minute to unmute and chime in. We'll give him another minute. So, I don't see anyone online looking to speak. I don't see anyone in person
looking to speak. Pleasure of the board. Motion to close the public hearing. Second. >> We have a motion to close the public hearing in a second. All in favor? I >> I opposed. >> So again, the motion we'd be looking for
is to modify special permit six for way. >> Seconded. So >> we have a motion and a second. Any other discussion? Should we add standard conditions and
>> standard conditions and copy the conditions from the original? >> Yeah, if there >> special permit and maybe just make a note since fire hasn't signed off and that's one of my mental checklists. Um, it's covered in there already. But could
we just note Paul making sure fire signs off on it please? >> He heard me. >> He's not. He's noting. >> So, we have a motion and a second. All in favor? >> I opposed. >> Abstensions.
>> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> That's why it was good to get here early. >> You can stay though. >> You want a piece of candy? Second item on our public hearing agenda
is definitive plan 2 for 125 Newand Street. The owner applicant is Newland 125 Nominee Trust. The applicant is seeking to subdivide an existing lot into two lots with the real lot to be accessed by a private road. The
applicant is also seeking a number of waiverss to the subdivision regulations. This uh has been continued a few times already. Good evening. Good evening. Hot board on behalf of uh 125 Newland Street. Uh since we were
last here, we revised the plan set more in conformance with your regulations, eliminating the need for several of the waiverss that we were looking for. Um on the on the plans, we indicate u
conformance with your shape factor. Um we added it was originally two lots. We added a rearranged it to make a third lot uh which would be open space which we would convey and combine with a budding land of uh
see what it is there's a land preservation trust. uh they would be getting another nine acres of our backland which is really not accessible to from from where we are. Uh we've
shortened the road up. It's only about 300 ft long now. It's still to remain a private way. Uh we made the culdeac conform to your rules and regulations. Um the roadway width we made it 20 24 feet
which you require. Um so most a couple of the waiverss we're looking for really relate to the con actual construction of the roadway. Um D storm water talks about low impact
country drainage. We're proposing stonelined uh infiltration swills around the pavement uh in lie of catch basins and drainage structures which this really is a driveway to service lot too. Uh we've asked for waiverss of
setting bounds uh street trees uh curbing and sidewalk uh as there there are none on Newland Street. Uh it would be a little out of I know a little out of complex I guess
to have uh you know granite curbing on a sidewalk on a driveway when the street we come off of is you know it's an old country road really. So um that's that's pretty much my presentation. If you have questions I'd
be happy to answer them. Um I have a couple notes right off the bat just from our last meeting. I think you answered one of them about the roadway with um it's a hammerhead correct at the end or is it a >> culdeac culdeac now? Correct.
>> Um and you have had a subsequent meeting with water and sewer. >> Yes, my client my client met with them and what we show on the plan is what they talked about for a sewer and water connection. We weren't interested in a you know
full-size water line down the street. We It's basically it will be a water service and a and a sewer service. >> And do do you have to go in front of conservation? >> Not at this point. We're limited construction right now is 200 ft
away from the what was delineated wetlands. When we come back to for the site plan for lot two, um we will maybe have some grading in the 100 foot buffer. We would have to file at least a an RDA would kind of call for that. But for what we need to do right now to
construct the Broadway driveway, we we're outside of what would be their jurisdiction. I think you've answered my few questions. I'll go to the board for questions. I guess the one thing as we're talking as we as Arts mentioned,
we're using a subdivision to create a driveway and if we're comfortable doing that or not. I'm not necessarily not comfortable with it. It's creative. I think we've talked about this before. Maybe have even done it before. I
>> No, maybe I'm thinking about a >> Maybe we have, but I'm not sure. I think most of them have just been straight up common driveways. Straight up common driveways. Correct. >> That's usually the method. It's it's a creative loophole. Is the driveway going to be held in private ownership or is it going to be
going to the town? >> It's a private way. >> Okay. Is it there's not going to be any seeking to push it to the town yet or is that a future endeavor >> by me? >> Would you be looking forward to in the future having the town take it over at
some point? Okay. No, I I don't think subdivision law would allow that. >> Um, there's a provision in subdivision law that about private ways that they cannot I believe it's private ways especially
built to a certain standard cannot be converted to uh cannot be an accepted road. >> Yeah. Given that it's only serving the one house, I'm assuming that this homeowner will just look at it as their driveway. >> Yes. >> So,
>> and actually in reality, the the color stack that was showing it is what provides the legal frontage for lot too to have the 150 ft of frontage. So, that's partly why, you know, it's it's a subdivision, like you say, to create a driveway.
So, >> if there's no other questions from the board, I'd like to just go over the exact list of waiverss uh that they are requesting. >> Yeah, please. >> Paul, could you just put that back up, please? So, again, I struggle with
with all these waiverss being granted. Um, however, it is a driveway and we are generally trying to match the environment that is there. Um, so I couldn't see putting sidewalks and granite curping on a street or a
driveway like this. And if this was a five house, however how many house subdivision, I could probably get myself to think, why would we put granite curbing, sloped granite curbing in on a small street that it doesn't match the neighborhood? If the neighborhood had it, if the streets coming in had it, I
could see us asking for it. >> That's just my Paul, could you scroll down just slightly? >> Reason to ask for it. >> Storm drains. We kind of covered that. Basins, pre-treatment, monument, street sign, street name. I assume there's going to be a street sign somehow or
street name somehow. No, >> I I I guess I have to discuss that with my client whether he wants to call it a street or just >> suppose there's going to have to be. Yeah, >> but the fire department. >> Yeah, >> they're gonna be really interested in >> Well, for the mail.
>> Oh, sorry. >> The mail. There's two addresses on that road. So, >> the numbering too, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Would this be private way applicant's name drive? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You get your own street. >> Yep. >> Okay. Wouldn't this be a thing? The
mailboxes would just both be down by the Newland Street, right? >> That would be a probably a homeowners association rule. >> Okay. you know, between the two houses. >> I the post office will set where it goes. >> Mhm. >> If they want it at the end, they'll put
it at the end. It's It's really not up to >> anybody where the mailbox goes. Sometimes >> postm >> street lights. I don't think we're going to require street lights down this whole street. Shade trees. >> Um >> I guess we could pull up here. >> What's existing out there now for
>> trees? It is. It's a >> sparsely wood. I'd say >> sparsely >> there's enough uh shoulder area outside of the two trenches that the you know and there's no real cutter fill to the road. So >> Mhm. >> the whatever trees are left within that
50ft strip would stay and it would provide more than >> adequate shade I would think. >> And to be clear I wasn't mentioning the mailbox location as a requirement. >> Yes. I didn't take it that way. Yeah, I just was trying to picture the scenario
here. >> Um, if we're all I'm kind of comfortable. I don't know if rest of the board if you're comfortable. Like Steve said, it's a creative loophole. I don't see it's not destructive. >> Correct.
>> So, >> I don't see a downside to it. >> And it actually provides the back lot the full frontage. So it's not non-conforming or using that sort of back lot loophole, the 50t frontage. >> And I'm sorry, I was reading something earlier when you said this. What did you
say about a uh donating land or some acreage that was going into >> behind the we we reshaped the reconfigured the two lots, the one on Nuland Street and the one behind it >> to >> the required area. it left about nine
and a half acres behind that that's not accessible but it abuts the uh land preservation trust property. So it's it provides for the open space that you would like to see for a subdivision but it also gives it a place to go to and be
combined with and you know make their open space a little bit bigger. It's about 9 and a half acres. >> Can sheriff if I can ask have you have you met with them? No, but I I'll have my client >> Okay. >> take it up >> because there were also you you know you're right near Dagot Crannle and
there's conversations going on there too. >> So just so you're aware. >> I'm sure the chair is aware cuz he was there at the last meeting. >> Dan Murray, >> he's not here today. He was at the last meeting. >> Oh, okay.
>> So we're going to put maybe as a condition Paul to meet with open space committee. It's just the land preservation side. They're independent. >> Land. >> Um, >> we can make it. >> Yeah. If there's a question about whether that would actually be conveyed
to the LPS, I'm not sure if that's something that do we want that on the plan. If it's still maybe I think from my perspective, it's a cool idea. It's It's a nice benevolent thing to give it to the LPS, but as far as
we're concerned, if it stays in your own hands, that doesn't change how this plan works for us. >> No. >> Just that. >> So, >> it's all wetlands out there anyways, right? >> Pretty much. >> Yeah. >> Wetlands in Norton. No. >> If there's no other questions for the
board, I'll go to members of the public in person or online that would like to speak. If you're online on Zoom, please raise your virtual hand. We'll give the meeting a few minutes to catch up. And there is nobody in person running up to the microphone as of yet.
Mr. Wiggins is awful quiet, so he's not going to speak tonight. >> Reporting on the action, right? >> Yes, sir. >> This is why I should start bringing guitar to the bang out a song and then I do not see anyone on the Zoom meeting looking to
speak. As far as conditions, we're going to have to Paul, do you want to vote on the waiverss as a package? Do you want to vote on every waiverss or you just want to make note of it in the motion, I guess, would be the >> Well, you I would um vote I get I think
it would be okay if you vote on them as a package, but should be separate from your vote on the subdivision. Um but one question I know as this is going to come back to you, >> Arthur, is the shity. Are you wanting a
a are we going to execute a covenant as this is a subdivision plan? >> I would assume you don't want to pay a bond. >> I assume my client would do that. Yes. >> Okay. >> And that would get worked out before the next. >> Yeah.
So, we're going to have our first vote would be a vote on to approve the waiver list and then our second vote would to be approved the definitive plan. Any other questions, comments, or concerns for the board? Art, are you good?
>> Arthur, are you good with everything? >> Yo, the board's good. The chair is looking for a motion. >> Motion to close the >> seconded. We have a motion to close the public hearing in a second. >> Paul, is there anything else that we need to talk about before we close here?
>> Uh, no. These are the only votes you would need to make. >> Oh, well, um, we we should also, you know, confirm the wa the water and sewer. I know you're working with them, but we'll coordinate. I'll make
sure might we might need a condition in here. I'll coordinate with the superintendent. >> Okay. and we'll review that decision. >> Yes. >> So, we have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All in favor?
>> I opposed. Abstain. >> Public hearing is closed. Any discussion for the board? If not, the first vote would be to approve the waivers requested as written. >> Motion to approve the waiver as requested as written. >> Second.
>> We have to be Did we want to wave the street sign requirement or not? >> I'm fine with I don't >> Yeah, >> I thought we kind of agreed that it needs a
>> I think it needs a sign. >> Public hearing's closed. I'm not going to ask Art. We can require that if we >> Yeah, require I would >> even if I I didn't understand we decided to require it, so I apologize. >> Yeah. Every subdivision needs a sign.
>> Is is our subdivision regulations, Paul, about street signs? Is it just there has to be a street sign? >> Correct. >> It doesn't say like has to be a street sign that's 12 in x 4 in and have this specific shade of green kind of.
>> No, I don't. It does not go into that. >> Okay. >> But I think it would be advisable to have a it's a street a private street. We should have a sign on it, especially for emergency services. Okay. >> So, I guess the motion would be to
approve the waiver list as listed minus the street sign. >> Second. >> We have a motion in a second. All in favor? >> I opposed abstain. Second motion would be to approve
definitive plan two for 125 Dan Street. >> So moved. >> Second. >> And any conditions >> water and sewer >> other than the sewer. >> Water >> water and sewer and standard list of
conditions. >> Does that work for your motion, Rob? >> Yes. I'm sorry. I thought you were waiting for Paul to confirm it. Yes, that is >> section. >> So, we have a motion and a second. All in favor? >> I >> I >> opposed. Abstain.
>> Thank you very much. You've been a pleasure to deal with. >> Thank you, Arthur. Have a good one. See you at the next one. Next item on our agenda is the review of findings and conditions for special permit 26 and site plan review 17 for 77
West Main Street. Paul, do you want to pull that up or Brian? >> Just pulling it up right now. Um, I should also point I did have the applicant review it and they didn't have any comments. So, um,
let me just pull this up. while we're reviewing that. It's true. Forget that thought. >> Just kidding. >> Just kidding. Um, I can just go right down to conditions unless someone has any
any comments on anything. Oh, most of this was standard conditions, but um and this actually mirrored the other approval we had on uh for Mr. Perno on 10 West Main Street. So, we had standard conditions of approval.
Uh under prior to construction, we did have um see what else we we did add um conditions regarding the two affordable units. He did state just like
with 10 West Main Street that they would m they would keep the the two affordable units and they will rent them out. The other units will be sold individually but not the affordable units. So, we'll need to get a regulatory agreement, deed restriction,
all of that. And we'll also make sure that when they come forward, we will submit this for the subsidized housing inventory. Okay. >> Uh, and prior to final occupancy, uh, all the standard stuff and including
here the, uh, uh, some affordable housing aspects of it. You know, these come right out of our bylaw. >> They do. >> And um the marketing plan,
these are, you know, these are ones we've used with other uh projects that have had affordable housing. Um, I do want to point out, and this comes right out of their traffic study, that if needed, uh, the applicant will work with the school department to provide
additional striping and signage at the school driveway. And also that they they're going to encourage exist exiting vehicles to use the the secondary access, the the the driveway farther away from uh from the
school, particularly at peak hours. And >> I'm sure that will be minimally successful. I >> was going to say, how do you encourage >> signage? >> Well, they can put signage up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But hopefully people will be smart and use the use the that one for a right
turn and not stick people Yeah. >> waiting for a left. >> Yeah. >> Signage and people being smart. Okay. >> I could hope. I could hope. Right. Um, >> rock and roll. And
that was oh um one thing I wanted they didn't they didn't me um raise this issue but hours of operation for the commercial uses I pulled this from some other projects we've had which uh Monday through uh
well Monday through Saturday from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. Uh, no, they didn't flag that. So, um, of course I guess the building commissioner could vary it, but um, >> this isn't construction hours of
operation. This is this is full hours. >> This is when the store opens and then uh, till 8 from 8 till 4 on Sunday. >> It seems >> the hours of operation from 7:00 a.m. till dus. Does that mean it's going to be forced to close at like 4:00 in the winter? In the winter?
>> Um, >> I don't like that at all. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I would take desk out of it. 7:00 p.m. Give them a tap. >> Looks as if it's ever earlier. >> The desk is arbitrary. >> Yeah. If it's a small restaurant or >> or like coffee shops tend to close earlier in the afternoon, but like a
restaurant or like a boutique store could stay open till like 6:00 or 7 sometimes. >> Yeah. >> To be honest, in Village Commercial along our main road, even 7 feels early. >> I was going to say, yeah, >> they nothing stays open past it, but they should. Yeah, >> we have nothing open late. We want something open later.
I wouldn't force them to close at 7:00 to be honest. I >> I'd say they can go to >> I don't even know how we do that to be >> Yeah. >> I I just wouldn't >> but Well, I'm sure we can but >> and then like on Saturday, Sunday till 4. I I don't like that. I don't like the hours to be honest.
>> I this I pulled it from a prior one, but feel free if change it. I mean, I I I wouldn't even restrict hours at all, >> but like I I would like to see the strip
active >> and if you're moving to a main road in a mixeduse building, you're kind of expecting activity. >> I mean, it's >> I mean, do we do 7? I mean, if it's a breakfast joint, 7 a.m.'s >> That could be late. >> Yeah. Yeah. They might want to be open
5:30. >> 5 or 6. Yes. But just like 7 to 9, 7 days a week. Like most things close around by 95. >> What do you do when town opens at 5? >> I'm just not a fan of hours of operation for this kind of business. I think in this area. >> Not in this area. >> I think I'm Yeah,
>> if it was in a more >> have to put it in. I >> I think we should >> I think we should just take it out. Yeah. >> And I don't think the applicant will have a problem >> striking that. Uh is hours of operation number four for the commercial uses. Uh yeah, I guess it's by CBS
>> because I mean >> I mean do you want me to keep the second sentence in that no >> I like that one. >> Okay, keep that. Fair >> hours maybe varied by the approval of the building commissioner. No, I was going to say delete that. >> But the no activities >> activity shall be carried on which Yeah,
>> I don't mind having hours there because when Cumberland Farms was going in, we had a lot of debate about do you really need to be 24 hours? >> Yep. >> And they said that they did. and we pushed him pretty hard on it. I mean, I don't have any objection to something
like five to 10 or something. >> Yeah, super broad. >> In my mind, ideally, I want our village commercial to be 24 hours. >> Yeah, >> I I would like at least a couple buildings to be operating.
>> I would like something to operate past 8:00 p.m. that I could >> fairly close to. >> I'm not awake usually past 8:00 p.m., so but like am and I get hungry. So >> 5 to 10 7 days a week with the ability for the building commissioner to wave it doesn't seem too restrictive.
>> I'm fine with >> I'm just thinking like >> I'm fine with that between 10 and 10 p.m. and 5:00 a.m. is the you need approval for it. >> That's fine. >> Yeah. Nothing would really stay. The thing is like yeah >> that's pretty progressive. >> Yeah, it is very >> but it's not like but people can
actually go to sleep at 10 if there is a problem. Yeah, >> that was my >> mostly other things like what >> were you saying 24 hours saying the Norton strip? >> No. to 10:00 p.m. 7 days a week. >> Yeah. >> Honestly, thank goodness Gumby's open 24
hours. Me just say, >> yeah, come farms had some butters on Seminary Way that were a little bit >> challenged by it, especially with the motor vehicle traffic and as white as the big fence there cuz they didn't want the headlights coming in. >> Yeah. Um, and there's res and the condo
is right next door to this. So, I don't know what it would be like, but >> yeah, >> again, as >> as this town grows in the future, yeah, I have the intention of like we should protect the neighborhoods. We we should protect the residents as much as we can, >> but it's our main road. It needs
activity. We need commercial activity. We need tax revenue. We We want businesses to come in. We want activity at night for young people. >> Yeah. So, >> I'm not even young anymore. I already missed it. how much money we're missing from 10:00
p.m. to 5:00 a.m. though. >> That's kind of where I'm like >> like probably not much cuz there's not enough later earlier. >> Let us know. >> The only thing I can think of is Cana asking to stay open later recently. >> They we gave them they came back and asked to stay open till 11:00, didn't they? It was originally they did, right?
>> Yeah. That's the only thing I was thinking of anything hours of operation wise that we've dealt with. >> We'll give them 11 right here. >> Well, they're not opening up a marijuana retail. Oh, I I was just I was using that as an example of hours of >> operation. And this one has the build the building commissioner can can bury
it with his approval. >> A good start. >> That's okay. That's fine. >> It would probably be a minor modification anyway. If there was a serious issue, we can take care of it. [Music] >> So, that was all I had.
>> Did we have screening for the property next door in there? >> Talked about it. I talked about it and it's on the plan. >> It is on the plan. >> Okay, cool. >> Do you want me to add it? I don't think I did.
>> And I wonder what will go into the third wall. >> Well, if it's on the plan, it's locked in though, right? >> It's on the plan. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Grocery store. Maybe bring back. >> Maybe something else. >> I don't know. >> Okay. Put a cheesecake factory.
>> No. No, >> I actually like those places. >> Yeah, >> I can't eat it though. >> So, are there were there any weird conditions, Paul, that you want us to look at? >> No. Uh, that was that was it. All of these others are >> everyone comfortable? >> Yeah. >> Yes.
>> Yep. >> You want us to vote, Paul, or we're good? >> I I think we're fine. You've already voted on, correct? So, woohoo. >> And then I since the last page isn't changing and that's where Eric would
sign it, we can have them sign that. Well, hope Well, I need to make sure it didn't change the last page. >> Otherwise, we Oh, it looks the same. It's the same. >> All right, we're just going to print out that page again.
>> Yeah. Yeah, got it. Okay, >> we're good. >> I think we're good. >> We're good. >> We are good. >> Last two items on our agenda is discussion. I believe we can take both of these together because they're very
similar. is review open meeting law complaint filed by Joseph Kaggliano and discuss response and review open meeting law complaint filed by Kelly Gallagher and discuss response. Paul, would you like to pull up Mr.
Coganos first here? Here's the uh complaint. [Music] And you can see this is in reference to both planning board and the select board. It was your joint meeting. >> So this is on the agenda for the select board to talk about also at the next
>> September 30th. So that's what this is in reference to. And just a a a point here too that um we have 14 business days from what from the time in which we get this to act. So
we're within those 14 business days. So, uh, at the end, just like you did a a month or two ago on a prior, um, complaint, you'll just, um, direct me to get or you have you'll have a letter.
You'll see the letter from the attorney and to determine whether you are okay with it or make any changes. And here's Mr. Klaniano's letter. I've read this. I'm not going to read it right now, word for word, but it's going to be on the
screen for a little bit. We'll scroll through slowly. I disputed a couple things in this. I did not say, "How many minutes do you need 10 or 15?" That did not come out of my mouth. My recollection was that he had made his
point um which was that he wanted us to do a mailing or he felt like we had not properly notified it was mailing or we haven't done it properly. It was very clear that that was the position. Um we had kind of said that we didn't agree
and so he was just re simply repeating the same position. did do it a second time. I think that's when a select board member did raise that this was kind of going on. And you're right, we did at that point not let him go again, but I
believe honestly it was just to repeat for a third time something he'd already said to us. We had heard it and we had considered it. >> Correct. We did have we do and still have Mr. Kaglaniano's letter um in our file and we did have I don't know the exact amount of time at he was at a
previous meeting of ours and did >> the meeting right before this >> the meeting right before this did speak >> um >> towards every point that he wanted to >> um I did not have control over the zoom in that one I didn't hit mute I don't remember exactly who did um and it is
within the power of the chair to set time limits and you'll see from town council's response We don't even have to take public comment if we don't want to in that >> correct >> setting. >> Select board normally doesn't actually
>> they don't like >> it was also a little different having multiple chairs and the town manager controlling it. So it was slightly different than one chair controlling their meeting. >> But my thing is he did get to state his
case. We did not blow off hearing anything or anything at that. We did in a subsequent meeting. It was opted not to hear us go through it for what was going to be multiple times. >> Yeah, I I agree. I have the same
feeling. I We've been talking to Mr. Kaggleo for a while now, a couple years now. >> Yeah. >> And he's made his opinions about various subjects very clear. I think we all understand where he's going with it. But at that moment, we had heard him. He maybe he felt like he had more to say,
but it did, in my opinion, seem like it was getting repetitive. >> Yeah. And sometimes people get into a mode where, well, if you didn't change your mind, I need to go over this again. And we we can't just work that way all night. We he had gone over it. We had
heard it, but we unfortunately did not agree with what he was wanting. He he wanted to hear that we were going to do a mailing or we were wrong. >> Sure. It was very clearly that. >> And I don't want to speak for members of the board, but I think any one of us if
we thought that someone was being cut off unjustly or didn't get enough time or had something else to I think any one of us would speak up and say no this we need to hear more information. I don't think we correct we even cut off anyone from giving us more information. We have a history of that even um there was an
option not to cut off um an individual from Redm Mill Village that was going up here. We just said no, we got to hear him out because he wasn't repeating himself. He just had a very long presentation. >> I don't know if we're taking public. >> Yeah, this isn't public hearing. >> I was here.
>> This isn't public. >> Yeah, >> we mentioned that as well. >> It's instated. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, >> I also think that we were specifically discussing um section three of the bylaw when he wanted to jump in because he couldn't stay for the whole meeting. So,
it was hard for the select board I think from my recollection recollection um cuz they thought it was going to be like on the section and it wasn't. So, it was a little bit confusing. >> They had his letter too. >> We have his letter and and also on the on the he did bring up that we had
multiple problems with Zoom. Yes. Um it is we have been informed by council that even if we have zoom problems we don't have to stop the meeting we could just keep going. >> And to just to add to it also like I tend to agree with almost everything Mr.
Kagliano is saying maybe not his methodology or his accusations to some things but his opinions about various subjects. I actually his solar stuff his noise stuff I actually agree with most of what he's saying. So there's no intention to shut down his opinions.
I think a lot of things we're just saying different ways. >> Yeah. >> Repetition. >> Chair, do you want me to show Miss Gallagher's >> or do you want to show town Do we going to show the town council's response or just I can't? >> Uh, if you want, but you should show Miss Gallagher's as well.
>> Let's show Miss Gallagher's the same response to both. >> We're going to uh Well, let's >> We believe it can be. Okay. >> Then let's see. Miss Gallagher. Here we go.
hers was also um that same meeting and for both the complaint was filed against both the planning board and select board. No, we suck equally So this is a third party account of the
same incident as the other one. >> Correct. >> Yes. >> She was attending the Zoom meeting virtually. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I have pretty much the same response to it. >> Yeah. Same response. That's why when we
see the council's letter, we had already run it by council. We're pretty much going to use the exact same letter um and just change the names because it's the exact same complaint. >> I agree. >> That's fine. >> Actually, I think that's smart if you're they're both speaking to the same
incident. So, >> the response is varied. That just opens cans of worms. I will mention too, right after Miss Gallagher filed the first complaint, I had um emailed her
back, said we had received and I gave her my phone number and said, "You want to talk about it? We can figure out where we went wrong. I haven't heard another email or call or anything. >> Thanks for trying." >> I have a quick question. Do we have to address her requests or
>> I think council's let it Thank you. >> Yeah. In just a little bit, we'll show you council's response. It was to Mr. Klaniano, but again, it's you could >> council looked at both and he said, "As long as we approve
the same substance of the letter for both, it's acceptable." >> Okay. I wasn't sure cuz she had detailed requests at the end, but I'm fine with using the same letter >> since our since we're not saying we
didn't violate open meeting law. >> We don't have to. >> So there's nothing we don't have to explain procedures, right? >> That's what I figured. >> We we also we have to refile our open meeting law stuff like every year or every election anyways. So >> as far as one and two, we actually kind of are meeting her demands
>> anyhow, right? We're governed by open meeting law. Every every meeting that we do, we go above and beyond in our opinion. >> And as far as mandatory retraining, >> um Okay. >> Can't comment. [Music]
Paul, I think we're good. If you want to bring up council's letter. >> Sure. [Music] [Music] different time. >> Sorry, it's uh Hold on just one second. This one's in the central time zone.
[Music] Let me uh a little There we go. So, I believe we do all have it in our packet, but we can scroll through here and see if anybody wants to I did read it and made a change. Um, like I spoke
about earlier, I did not say 10 15 minutes that I think that did come out, but it wasn't from me. I think it was somewhere else down the line. Um in council >> I think it was intended rhetorically where however it came out. That was my my recollection of
>> correct as well. >> Council did review the meeting multiple times I'm told and he did agree with me saying that did not come out of the chair's mouth. I think it's very few times that Tim you might remember that we would set time limits I think on a
>> I can probably count them on one hand >> one hand one or two >> it's generally when it's like okay we've got 30 people who want to speak like >> we have to get through it >> you either tell people keep it to a couple minutes and be adults and let everybody speak or we're going to have to put time limits on you and that's usually the message
>> and as far as we know people start going too long or like can you wrap it up please? I think we've only done like strict time limits like >> okay >> well twice maybe. >> So we clear >> I can remember both of those steps. So we clearly violated no laws. We're
good there. And then I'll just take this a more open way. Is there any way we could have handled him better? >> No. >> I I would just stay to the point here of addressing the open meetings complaint. >> Okay. I would just stay on agenda.
>> Okay. I was saying we do want to try and be respectful to people. We did our best with him. I don't know where we could have done any better. But I mean it it would just for anybody that's trying to have a
discussion with the board, anybody at the podium or on camera should be clear. You should try to get your point across quickly. You should realize that there's other people that also want to talk that we have to sit in this room for hours going through all of
this and have to actually get the meeting done and we we have the right to unfortunately we all we do have the authority to cut somebody off if they're speaking too long >> and we generally don't want to hear the same thing every time. I remember
several meetings where we have like a commercial development across from residential development and it's yeah the traffic's horrible. the traffic. Well, okay. No more no more traffic's horrible. If you have new information, please bring it forward. We know the traffic's horrible. That's my example.
Um, so I believe the direction Paul's looking for here is, are we fine using this letter for both open meeting law complaints? And is there any other any else other you want the council to add to the letter? >> To that question, I think the letter's
good for both complaints. >> I would concur. Agreed. >> Would you like us to vote or are you good with our >> I I would vote. >> Okay. >> Motion to send this letter for both complaints. >> Seconded. >> We have a motion to submit town
council's letter on file that we have for the open meeting law complaint for Joseph Cogleaniano and Kelly Gallagher. All in favor? >> I >> I opposed. >> Abstain. That clears it up for you, Paul?
>> Yes. Thank you. >> I go back to planning board business and policies. Um, just want to bring up last night town meeting very briefly. Not going to talk about it a whole lot, but more quickly moving forward, what we should do. Um,
right off the bat, we're going to have a joint meeting with the select board again to appoint a new member. So, I don't want to start anything till we have a full board. Um, that being said, I want to want us to think about ideas going forward, what we
should do. Tim and I talked very briefly last night. I think the only way forward is very small bites of the apple. Um, I think that's the only way we can make this palatable going forward. Um, and maybe right off the bat, we I don't
think any of us have the intention right now of sitting through another 10 public meetings through to get to next spring. However, there's probably a couple things we could do that aren't very heavy lifts, and I I think it's our job
to put something on every town meeting warrant at this point. Um, if we have to put something on every town meeting warrant and I have to get up there and I'm going to fail a few more times, I'd rather try to do the job and then not do the job at all. Um, that being said, let's think about what we want to do
right off the bat. We could, like everyone's asked for, do just a simple reorganization. That would be a very simple task for us, I think. So no way it's just strict copy paste, move things around,
>> move everything around, move definitions around. >> And then if we thought it was palatable, maybe we add something simple like ADUs. Lipa, let's keep whatever we do simple, as simple as possible. And maybe
maybe we make a priority list of this is the most effective use of our time. This is the most effective use of town meetings time. This is what we should tackle first. This is what we should tackle in the fall. This is what we should tackle in 2030.
>> Don't we have a hump we have to get over though? It seems like this right now the reason there's a lot of changes necessary is because it's been years since anybody's done this. So there was a lot that's built up that need to be adjusted. And then if like if we had gotten this through, I think we still
would have been back next town meeting, but we would have been back with just what had come up over the last 6 months needing to be changed. We can start coming back with smaller bites. It seems to me there is kind of a hump we have to get over because we have a backlog and it snowballs, you know, like when we got
voted out now it snowballs. I I would like to at Springtown meeting bunt and get a single and then hope for the next at bat to do better. >> I love your terminology. That's the best way I can throw it out there right now. >> I hear you. >> You watch in my my opinion about it like
yes, it could be reorganized. Does it need to be reorganized? >> Yes. the I mean that yes what's more needed for a >> I don't think we need to get into it tonight >> to be reorganized or to fix the things that are broken in it >> whatever it is it's got to be small
>> right >> I personally think it's hard to fix until we reorganize it because it it really is hard to follow until we do that >> well we'll have it we'll get we'll get our full >> have that debate >> exactly we'll have that full board and what what I would like to try to do I don't know how many projects we have in
front of us um we do have some time. We'll try to keep it to meetings where we only have one or two things like tonight. >> Yeah. >> Not going to put it on a meeting where we have five things, >> right? >> Um >> try to get us home before midnight. >> Correct. And it just doesn't do it justice when we have
>> things get a little >> correct. >> Yeah. >> Um so everyone think we all have homework. What what we think to do going forward would be best. Um we'll get a full board on board and then go from there. >> Eric, were you wave? I thought you were
waving at me. >> No. >> Oh, sorry. >> Uh, but we only have one meeting next month, correct? >> Uh, >> correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. So, just my calendar was empty. Just wanted to make sure. But what what's the date on that one? >> I have it as November 18th.
>> It's November 18th, December 2nd, and December 16th. >> Yeah, >> because I asked Brian two weeks ago cuz I couldn't remember either. >> Sorry, >> I don't have it in there. Say it again. November 18th. >> Yeah, here. I got it right in here, too. >> Gotcha.
>> December 2nd and December 16th. >> Yes. >> Yeah. I had the same thought, Eric, when I was asked at home, "When are your next planning board meetings?" And I went, "Oh, I for I'll just throw out depending on how the other meetings go." I would I
would be amicable to a Zoom meeting talking about this stuff specifically as something Yeah. I an actual meeting but just have it virtual and this be like the only topic. >> Absolutely. And we can also talk about having a working group
>> um or a subcommittee if you want to do that again or better with you know a zoning board member or a planning board member I mean a select board member. Um, >> yeah, >> even if it's only one or two, sometimes those work work well. >> I think those are all good thoughts to have.
>> All that being said, uh, November 18th, what's our agenda looking like? Do we have >> um, >> Ryan, do we have a lot of things? Do we have anything? >> No, we don't. Um, we have I know we have a
>> kind of interesting with the 10,000 square foot or >> kind of not making it last night. We're going to have one in front of us on Sturdy Lane. Um, >> and then uh trying to let me >> We have zero Sturi Street and 10 Robinson Lane,
>> right? And um we don't know when it's uh going to be fully here, but Zero Mansfield's back. It's been remanded. Although we're waiting for the site plan application to come in. >> Okay. This is the big buildings um that
the reservoir. Okay. >> Yeah. The intersection >> right across the street. >> It's possible it'll be it'll be on that meeting if they get it to us. So obviously there's some time before our next meeting um before the agenda goes out and if we have if we we'll probably end up slipping in a joint meeting with
the select board between then. >> Yeah. >> Um so we can appoint another member. Um that I we don't all have to be in person for that. I believe some of us could be on Zoom. Um so feel free. >> Um but possibly that meeting if there's only two things at I'll add on
discussion on zoning bylaw. >> Okay. just to have it on there. Well, we'll we'll wait a little. Obviously, the agenda is not posted for a long time. So, >> yeah, >> if the join meeting is going to be run on the select board Zoom, if you're going to attend virtually, let Paul or
Brian know in advance so they can whoever's running the Zoom can look out for you joining the room. Otherwise, joining the select board Zoom is >> Yeah, you can't speak. >> Well, you have to be as a participant. There was one meeting I attended virtually and I was literally texting
every single person on the screen until somebody realized that I was waiting. >> It was uh Yeah, >> that would complete our agenda for this evening. Anybody else have any business? If not, the chair would be looking for a motion. >> Motion to close.
>> Second. >> We have a motion and a second. All in favor? I opposed. >> Good night everybody. Thank you.