WEBVTT

METADATA
Video-Count: 1
Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=lgZkPOSYMTg

NOTE
MEETING SECTIONS:

Part 1 (Video ID: lgZkPOSYMTg):
- 00:00:00: Meeting Call to Order and Board Elections Begin
- 00:05:12: Payroll, Bills, New Members, Paul's Last Meeting
- 00:07:54: Presentation: Roles and Responsibilities of Board Members
- 01:11:24: MBTA Community Design Standards and Subcommittee Formation
- 01:16:32: Spring and Fall Town Meeting Articles Discussion
- 01:33:38: Discussion: Future Improvements, Tracking and Dropbox


Part: 1

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Good evening and welcome to the Tuesday, April 21st meeting of the Norton Planning Board. The public is welcome to participate in person or remotely. We are here in person at the Norton Town Hall at 72 East Main Street in the Crane Room. You may also join online via the link in the agenda. Please feel free to

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email town staff with any questions prior to our meetings. I will call this meeting to order. Everything in this meeting is going to be planning board business policies, training sessions and discussions. The first item on our agenda is board

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elections and I will kick that over to Brian as I cannot share the elections. Brian, hi. So, we will be starting with the president uh chair. I'm tired. So, we'll

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be starting with the chair. Once we get the chair nominated and voted upon, they are allowed to take over for the meeting from there. So, any nominations from the board for chair? >> I nominate Alan. >> I'd like to nominate Allan.

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>> Good strong steady leadership puts in his work. >> Um, >> fairly apply. I >> I heard three people. So, so who first? Who's second? >> I'm the second. >> Okay. Thank you.

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You've done good, dude. >> And then >> you're going to take the vote. >> That's right. So, roll call for whether or not we're having Allen. Rob, >> yes. >> Chris, >> yes.

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>> Allan, >> yes. >> Bridget, >> yes. >> Steve, >> yes. >> And Frank, >> yes. >> Okay, that's it for me. So, >> thank you Brian. >> Back to Allan. >> Brian's done. Thank you, Brian. >> These are really low. The mic volume is really low. >> For vice chair, I would like to nominate

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Steve. >> I think he's probably our hardest working member. >> Second. >> Second. >> We have a motion and a second. We'll go down the roll. Rob, >> yes. >> Chris, >> yes. I'm a yes. Bridget, >> yes. >> Steve, >> yes. >> Frank, >> yes.

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>> Thank you, >> Bridget. How would you feel about getting nominated for clerk? >> Second. And before before before we do clerk, >> um clerk is going to become very busy. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Just so anyone knows who's going to accept it, it's going to be a lot

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busier than normal. We have a >> a a new worksheet that we've been working on that Eric worked on for a long time that we're going to need to start using and it's with current uh how things are, we're going to need the clerk's going to be relied upon heavily, just so everyone knows. So, nomination for clerk.

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>> Uh Bridget, are you okay with that? >> Nominate Bridget. >> Nominate Bridget. Second. >> We have a motion and a second. Rob, >> yes. >> Chris, >> yes. >> I am a yes. Bridget, >> yes. >> Steve, >> yes. >> Frank, >> yes. >> This is the most I've ever gotten my way

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in a meeting ever. >> Capital improvement committee. I'm interested in serving on it for a term. If anyone else wants to, please volunteer. Um, it's one of them I haven't checked off my list yet. Um, but I'd be more than happy to uh take that. It's not very many meetings.

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>> I nominate Ellen. Second >> motion and a second. Rob, >> yes. >> Chris, >> yes. >> I'm a yes. Bridget, >> yes. >> Steve, >> yes. >> Frank, >> yes. >> Serpentid rep, I believe. Steve, you're the current serpent rep for a couple years now. >> Nominated Steve. Second.

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>> Second. >> I was going to say serpentid. It's a It's a lot longer meetings. It's >> I'm sure >> I'm sure Steve if you don't want it, you want to explain it, you can. >> It's It's online meetings mostly. two times a month, maybe once a month,

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and uh it takes a couple hours each meeting. You learn about what's going on in the region. Uh 27 communities, different designs, about the rail trail, planning stuff and events that you can learn things.

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>> That being said, I believe we have a motion. >> We have a motion by Frank, second by Bridget. Rob, >> yes. >> Chris, >> yes. I mean, yes. Bridget, >> yes. >> Steve, >> yes. Frank, >> yes. historic district commission. Um, we kind of I think this is kind of

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something new for the new for the planning board. I had it was a meeting with the town manager um myself and Paul and a few other people and the historic district commission definitely needs help and they need some like technical help. They need some computer help and I had

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volunteered Steve. Steve was in the meeting. I said, "Steve fits perfectly with his computer skills and his drafting skills, and I I thought it was going to be a great fit. I hope he didn't get mad at me for that." Um, but I still feel the same way. So, I would nominate Steve for historic district commission rep.

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>> I I accept. >> Yes. >> We have a motion in a second. Rob, >> yes. >> Chris, >> yes. >> I mean, yes. Bridget, >> yes. >> Steve, >> yes. >> Frank, >> yes. >> Sorry. I think you do well. >> That does everything for elections tonight. Brian, do you have any bills you want to pass down while we're doing elections?

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If not, we'll uh move on to our small presentation that we have. >> So, quick note for payroll. Sure. This uh is one time for Paul. So, you'll notice it's different >> and it's quite significant compared to

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previous ones. So, uh the math is there. Paul can explain if you guys need it. And we have two bills. Before we go any further, I got sidetracked for the I'd like to welcome Chris to the board. Chris was just elected last week. We

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also have uh Robert Balaz who could not be with us tonight. He is traveling. He's on an airplane right now. Um but I believe he'll be at the next meeting. Welcome. Appreciate you serving. >> Thank you. Read Robert Brown. >> Yeah. Robert had submitted uh a letter to Frank and just a reason why he wasn't

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here. I mean to Rob. Um go ahead Rob. >> Unfortunately, he's not an airplane. He wrote he wrote, "Hello, and thank you for the opportunity to introduce myself. My name is Rob Balas. I'm honored to be joining the Norton Planning Board. I'm looking forward to the opportunity to serve the residents of Norton and to

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contribute to the thoughtful planning and development of our community. I look forward to working with my fellow board members, town staff, and especially residents to ensure that decisions reflect today's needs as well as long-term vision for Norton that preserves the suburban character of the town. While I regret that I'm unable to

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be there in person, I'm eager to get started and do my part to support responsible growth in Norton. Thank you, Rob Bis. A rather small piece of business that goes along with bills and warrants. This is Paul's last meeting. Um Friday was

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Paul's last day. This is he stayed on to um go through this presentation that he had worked on for us. Um he's here with us tonight. That being said, usually we do a bill. We can designate somebody else to sign bills unless everyone's okay with that. I was going to take that

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on so I can spend more time in the office with Brian. And while there's a transition finding a new planner, I plan on having to pitch in and help more. We've been in this circumstance before where we don't have a town planner. Um, if it gets busy, Ryan's going to get swamped. He's going to need some help um

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from town staff. I already had a conversation with the town manager this morning about it. Um there's going to he's going to make some town staff available to him. Looks like he's going to create a new job description and have something posted, but I doubt it's going to be before town meeting. So, we're

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going to go several meetings like we did before whoever was on. It's not the easiest not having a planner, but uh we'll get through it. We do have some backup from town staff. I'll get the building inspector involved more conservation, whatever we have to do. >> Uh but we'll make it all work.

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Paul, did you want to uh jump in? >> Um, sure. Let me uh So, Alan, you want the uh presentation started? >> Sure. So, just a brief about 2019 uh 2020 um town council had prepared a

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PowerPoint presentation of roles and responsibilities of board members, not just this board, ZBA, um things like that. And we had a I believe was citizen citizens planning council had a presentation and so Paul took a couple of these presentations molded it all together and basically what we were

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looking to do is design like a new member welcome briefing or a training if you want to call it that. Um and it's also good for people that have been on a while, haven't been on for a while. Um all of the above. My goal for this is this to

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be one of our like kind of living documents that we can work on. And what I want to do going through this, I want to work on it. So maybe this is something, you know, next year, next spring, we get two new people. We do the same thing. First meeting whenever we can, you know, we do roles and

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responsibilities. What are we here for? What are we actually voting on? Just so like Bridget and Frank came on, it was just cold dump you right into a meeting. >> Might not have known all the ter. >> So >> I look at tonight as just a little training session. Let's kind of loosely

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talk through it. I want to let's take what we have here, but I want to add to it. I want to subtract from it. I want to make it um so going forward the meeting right after the election, we can bring this up and say, "All right, here's our yearly go through of this document." >> Y I like it.

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>> Great idea. >> Oh, are you all seeing the present? Are you seeing the presentation? Yeah, >> the first uh screen. Yeah. Okay. So, I'm just going to go ahead and and just go over as as Alan mentioned, this is this presentation comes from a

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couple of of uh presentations uh that have that are available actually in the uh the Dropbox um drive that link that I've sent all of you in in past presentations. But I've I've taken those

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presentations and really uh evolved it more to our experiences here with with Norton and try to make this much more of a hands-on. And my thought was let's really kind of dive in more on the um

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the real the the real applications that you all have seen um and and the experiences. So we're going to take a a you know a broad cut at a number of things here. I mean ultimately as you existing the current members know it's really diving into the bylaw and the

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subdivision rags to know that but um I wanted to first start by by talking about the the the powers that the board has and then uh go talk about the role of the board members um and then there are some a number of resources available to you. We'll go over that and then dive

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in. We'll spend most of the time talking about the rules and regulations, ideas to help you make good decisions, and then finish it with effective public hearings. So, with that, before we go into that, I just want to thank you all. Um when I originally wrote this was

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specifically just as your role as volunteers for our community and um as I've been as you know I'm I'm leaving and as I've been last week when I was saying goodbye to a lot of people I met other board members of other boards and thank them too cuz it's just important

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you all you all are volunteers and as you know on this board you spend hours you know at a meeting you you spend time prepping for meetings And I just think it's important that, you know, at least for my sake, I want to say thank you for doing that. But also now since I'm

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leaving, I just want to say thank you for two great years. Um, and especially thinking about the work you did for the MBTA communities, uh, the recottification, you guys withstood a lot of pressure and

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you you stood up to it. And I can tell you what when it comes to the MBTA, there were a number of planning boards that didn't. And I think you know you should be really proud of that that you know you had work that had to be done and you you kept going forward. So thank

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you. Um so you all have an important you have a lot of power. Um I want to talk about that role uh first and um first I want to look at what go over what the charter

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says. I mean, you have land, you are the land use authority in in town. I mean, some other boards like conservation have an effect on land use, but you're the development side of it. The charter designates the planning board to to regulate the subdivision of land within

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the town. And you know, that's one of the tools, one of the one of the permitting authorities you have is to to approve definitive plans. And approval is not required. Um, you also have the ability you you're required to review

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any uh you're to make recommendations to town meeting on any matters affecting land use and development including the zoning bylaw. So, as you know, whether the planning board or the select board or a private citizen submits a change to the say the zoning

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map or the bylaw, you all still have to make a review of it and make that recommendation at town meeting. You're also the board that makes uh that requires or uh puts forth a master plan, which we did back in

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2021. So, these are some pretty powerful responsibilities that you have and it doesn't end there because with the zoning bylaw, >> can I stop you, Paul, for one sec? >> Sure. >> Sorry to interrupt you. I don't I don't want to stop your role. Back to the

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master plan. Um like Paul said, we did this in 2021. And Paul, do you remember how many meetings that took? Cuz it was a lot. >> It It was a lot, but also we were disrupted by co um fortunately Serpent did a great job, a masterful job of

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adapting. But >> yeah, it was a lot of meetings. I remember we probably had about three or four community events, but the planning board had a lot of meetings in addition to go over different sections of it.

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So since 2021, a lot of things have changed. Um, town manager, select board, we all seem, everyone seems to have an appetite for a new master plan. Um, town manager was looking for money um for Serpentid to

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start a new master plan. It's not in this budget cycle, but I didn't know. >> I it did not. It's not going in this budget. Um but there is an intention to do a quicker update to the master plan than the last time mainly driven all

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these new laws that are coming out. Um and life has sped up since 2020 2021 and we might have to be more adaptable and more reactionary quicker um rather than doing every 10 years. But it is the intention to do one in the near future

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or at least update it in some form in the near future. >> Okay. >> Mr. Chairman, a question. >> Yeah, Rob. >> So, are you saying that um money in the budget or not, we're going to have to do this ourselves? >> No. No, it's not in the budget right now. So, it's not happening. >> Um they're going to have to budget

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somehow or it'll probably be looking for a grant again most likely. Um >> but I just wanted to throw it out there that it is something in the future that we'll be working on again. I don't think it's I it's not going to be this year. Okay. >> Sorry.

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>> Again, it's you you all control what goes in that master plan and you have the option of either adopting it at a a planning board public hearing or what you did the last time which was bring it to town meeting and have it approved at town meeting which I think was the right

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move to make. So, um, in addition to the to the charter, the zoning bylaw is very explicit as to what your authorities are. And again, it's it's significant. One is your p you're the primary special permit granting authority. So, for

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Chris, I know you're a new member, but one of your uh uh permits that you will be often times h seeing in front of you is what we call a special permit. You're going to be, you know, the planning board is the primary

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uh authority for it. as and related to that the planning board is also the one that grants site plans when when you receive u submissions for site plans and uh another important tool that you have is you can impose conditions. So like

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for example if you're concerned about a project um having a visual impact on an ab budding residence you can require screening going in. You could also provide you can also provide waiverss if this if the applicant has proven that

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the standards might be not applicable here, but that's only if the bylaw allows you to do it. Um, again, the planning board can make amendments to the zoning bylaw and map. Again, very important tool. And then you hold public hearings on any zoning bylaw or map

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amendment. So related to what we were talking about in the charter, it always has to have a a public hearing for any uh zoning bylaw change or map amendment and then you all have to make a recommendation that goes to town meeting.

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Um so the role of the board members is you're the decision makers on land use and development and again significant and you make decisions on primarily four different types of permits. Do you have special permits, site plans, definitive

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subdivision plans, and then uh approval is not required, which uh so Chris, that's a a weird way of saying you're not a subdivision, but we're going to we're going to agree that you're not a subdivision and you endorse it. And I'll go into that a little bit more uh couple

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slides. Um so the role of board members too is your your major focus is applying the by the zoning bylaw or the subdivision reg uh just dependent on what application is in front of you. it

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it's not personal preference although you know as the you know the veteran members know it's a balancing act between uh oftentimes public sentiment and the bylaw but um decisions must be legally defensible uh which again is going to be

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is uh not as easy as it well it doesn't even sound easy but it's a challenge but again you want to balance public input with the legal standards um that's that's going to be I think the the hardest thing that you all do is

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doing that. Um but I'll have a few points as as to try to help but fortunately you have a still have a very experienced board. Um I think for the continuing on with the role of the board members and if you know to be effective

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um first and again know know what the authority is of the board. So you know the you know know what's in the charter but really know what's in the bylaw. you're going to spend more time with that bylaw. Uh I'm going to highlight some sections that you know, especially

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for for Chris and and and Rob when he starts Rob or Bob. Anyway, Robert >> um Robert that we will highlight certain sections that you should get to know right away >> and then others will be on more on a as

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needed basis. Um, I also think it's important for people to read the the planning board handbook which um talks about it. It it was developed in 2017 and it's kind of been mothballled but

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it's still I think an effective guide to helping you understand the roles and responsibilities of the planning board. Um, it's going to also be important to understand the standards of decision making. So, when you have a special permit, you're going to need to know uh what type of special permit it is, what

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are the approval requirements for that, and that sort of thing. And we're going to spend a little bit of time on that. Um it's also you going to want to know the legal aspects of uh of board conduct and decisions. So, that includes things like knowing the open meetings law and

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and you know, when needed, when we have to bring in when you have to bring in town council, they'll talk about case law that's effective. But primarily you're going to be focusing on the zoning bylaw, the subdivision rags. And there's a couple of citations for uh

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from the state from Mass General Law 48, which is special permits. And then uh Mass General Law 41 section 81. That's the Subdivision Control Act. I've also put in the master plan. You don't enforce based on the master plan, but

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you should know what it says because when an application comes in front of you, it's possible that the master plan will have talked about that type of use or that location and what does the master plan say. So again, it's an important tool to or important document

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to know. Um there are a lot of resources available to you and and Allan mentioned this one earlier but the citizens planner training uh uh collaborative or uh it it's a great source. I when I

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first started working in Massachusetts I use this a lot. They have a series of webinars. Uh they have an a annual conference that they that uh they do at Holy Cross every year. Um there's online materials that you can use. I've downloaded a lot and put it in that

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Dropbox planning board resources. Um there is money available too in the budget for some of you to be able to go to uh you know some of the training sessions. Uh but I find it to be very helpful. It was very helpful. Um >> they do have specific training sessions

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for special permits for site plan reviews. I think I I want to say a long time ago I went to one of each of them. I think they were free at the time though also. I think once in a while, maybe I'm wrong, maybe they maybe they had a grant or something, but I remember it was we didn't have to pay for the two I went to for whatever reason.

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>> Yeah. And and Right. Uh it's not it's not an expense. I think I've paid 30 or $40 on now this is going back, you know, four or five years and this was before they were doing online. So this was before COVID and anyway, it's a great

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resource. Um and they and and the the PTC is is directed toward planning board and zoning board of appeal members more than anybody and and staff planning directors and you know players as well,

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but it's really geared toward those two boards. And a lot of those documents are put in um again there was a Dropbox link and and uh Brian will have that link and we can send that back out to you all. But um I'm not going to go over all of

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this stuff. It's uh but it's there. There's an extensive amount of materials for you. Additionally, staff is here. You know, we have a team at with the town to help you out. And um many departments review the projects

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that go in front of you uh and they'll provide it uh their perspective. And um we are we would frequently meet with applicants before it ever went to you with the goal of having us all look at it and be able to um hopefully revise

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their plan to the best uh best level possible before it went in front of you. But it was also their chance to address say the fire department or the conservation uh director's uh concerns. Um but you have a resource there. Um

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and you know certainly continue to use them. >> Take one. >> Um this slide just shows a the relationship between Mass General law in the town. Again, chapter 48 deals with special permits. But note they don't they there's nothing in Mass General law

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about site plans. Um but we have it in our zoning bylaw. We have both special permit and site plans in the zoning bylaw. The subdivision control act is enforced locally by the Norton subdivision regs which again includes the approvals not required. And then

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there's case law which uh occasionally that uh plays a role for you. Not all that often but sometimes it does. Um and here here is our current bylaw. Um these are all the sections in it.

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There's 23 sections. I've highlighted the ones that you really need to know, you know, sooner than later because they're they're always going to pop up. You're you're going to need to know article 4, the use regulations. That simply just tells you what uses are

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allowed in what zoning districts and whether they're allowed by by right or by special permit. The dimensional regulations of article 6 is also critical because we need to know you know what's the building height in that zoning district what are the setbacks and what other you know um you know what

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are the um what percentage of the lot can be covered by a building parking is also important um you see that all the time I would also read article 10 which is the uh part of that is the special permit granting authority article 15

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which is the site plan review. It tells you what needs to come in, how it should be, you know, what should be covered. And then article 18, landscaping. The others you will get to know, but it'll be on an as needed basis. So, like for example, you don't need to know the marijuana establishments. Well, you

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might not need to know that anymore since we've just issued the third and >> um the the last one. Um, but also letting you know article 23, which is the multif family mixeduse overlay district, that is the MBTA community zoning district.

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So, that's an important one and hopefully, you know, maybe uh maybe some whenever something comes along in that area, you'll need to refer to that article. Um, and then the subdivision regulations. Um we don't get as many

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subdivision regs uh subdivision plans as we do special permits and site plans, but we've been getting more of them. Um and this just tells you u you know here's how it's broken that down. Um typically that we have to get to the definitive plan and then that'll uh

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involve uh article 5 design standards and then article six which are the construction standards. Um now the the difference but talking about approvals not required or form a plans the difference between a an approval not

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required and a subdivision plan is they both allow the subdivision of two or more lots. But if you're subdividing it on an existing roadway or constructed way of some sort like West Main Street, that's an approval not required. But if

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you're having to extend or build a road to meet to uh to these lots, that's a definitive plan. And that's the major difference. And that's um we see more form A plans or approvals not required. Um but we have been seeing an uptick in

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these definitive plans. Just back to ANRS for a quick second. Um two standards basically is the only thing we're looking at on ANRS. We're looking at is the site accessible? So, can whatever is constructed to be constructed, can they access it? Is

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there a road? Is there some way for emergency vehicles to get there? And is there proper frontage? Those are the only two things we're looking at for ANR plans, basically. So, they typically typically when they get to us, there isn't a ton of questions, but I I don't want to jinx it. Um, it's probably the

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most simple thing that we'll see um or do see. There is sometimes we run into some issues. We've had a few kind of crazy ones. Um but there is ultimately only those two standards that we are looking at. >> Yeah. Yep.

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Um so now it's kind of shifting gears a bit to uh making good decisions. I took this from, you know, uh the one of the uh one of the presentations that I built off of this that was writing good decision or writing defendable decisions

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like well this is going to be more for the board. Um, but it's important to explain why, not just the what. >> And it's it's in the case of special permits, it's really important to uh to tie your decision to the special permit criteria or any of the criteria. Uh

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whether it's the subdivision or a site plan, but it it needs to a decision needs to be reflective of the approval criteria of that permit. And it must clearly state why you voted for for or well it this is really important when there's

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a denial but you really must clearly state why you voted for a denial. So you know where we have one that um you know where we have a denial where we failed to get the minimum number of votes. It's it's important and then legally required

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for us to be able to say here's why it didn't. Like for example, the traffic peer review showed negative impacts to traffic. That's just an example. But it's also important to make sure you bring up the concerns during the public hearing. Uh for one, legally, you can't

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deny you can't identify a reason um to deny a pro a a project that wasn't brought up during the public hearing. And also, if you don't bring it up, it's really not fair to the applicant because they wouldn't have a chance to address a concern that wasn't raised. Um and again

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it's really critical to tie reasons to the zoning bylaw subdivision rags as applicable again because it's we we need to make sure that decisions are legally defendable and by that it's you know a connection between the decision the

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application the decision and the applicable regul local regulation. Um so what this slide is now showing is when it comes to special permits there are really two general two buckets of

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special permits. this first one which is you'll see this is a a snapshot of of our residential use table and you'll see uh and the use table um what uses are allowed or prohibited allowed by right

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which is the yes or by special permit which is the SP um you'll see there's many SPS on this particular chart and the reason I'm just showing this is many of the special permit applications you will

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fall under this more general what we call discretionary approval meaning you know it's really at the board's discretion um that and this is a comes right out that quote is right out of the uh zoning bylaw which is special permits are not

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granted as a matter of right but of privileges which may be granted as appropriate in specific circumstances which are in keeping with the intent of the zoning bylaw and so what this is saying is is it's really at the board's discretion if

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they're approving or not approving. And these are the general standards for these these types of of special permits. So the project would be socially or and economically desirable. The project would satisfy an existing need.

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the advantages of the project outweigh by far any detrimental effects and that such effects on the neighborhood and environment shall not be significantly greater than could be expected from development if the special permit were denied. So you're seeing here that these

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are talking about the it's based on the the impacts associated with the project. Um the next the fourth one is the applicant has no reasonable alternative available to accomplish the purpose of the project. And then finally, the specific conditions imposed would would

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minimize detrimental effects and protect the neighborhood. So again, right there, there's another example where you can place if you have concerns, you can place conditions that might appease you and make you vote yes or if there's not a spec a condition that can do it, then

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you would you would not vote for it. >> I want to just add something in right there. Quick poll. Yeah. >> And it kind of came up during our Pine Street thing. Um, and a lot of things we see we they might be requiring a special permit, but there's similar things or

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similar projects they could do as of right. So, like in Pine Street, Steve pointed out multiple times we were looking at a cluster development. They would have been able to build all those houses whether we approved that or not. Um, so what we're able to do with that special permit was get it what we thought and is a better project that if

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they went in and just built houses. Um, so a lot of times we have to look at not just a not this is just not a special permit, but they would be able to do something else, something similar, but they're asking for a special permit for maybe a little bit more. So really

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the when you're weighing the effects on the neighbors and effects, you kind of got to tread the line of that they're already allowed to do something and it's what we're granting in the special permit more than you know out of bounds than it would be if if what they're

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allowed to do is that's one of the areas that I struggle with the most um whether the development without a special permit would affect it just as as a development with the special permit, I guess, is my best way of

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explaining it. Um, it's a it's a tight line to tiptoe across in my brain, >> but it's an important one. >> Can I add just a little bit >> to that? Um, another thing in our thinking that we have to sometimes do,

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Pine Street's a great example, is um there's a lot of sentiment that people would have liked us to just leave that alone and let it stay woods. um simply not realistic and sometimes you do I mean that would have been my first choice too but sometimes we do have to

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pick our poison here and that was a case where what they were looking to do was really one of the better options versus what could have happened there and so sometimes you do you might not like it but you do got to think about

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accepting something that you dislike less than having something you dislike more come here. >> So, quick acknowledgement. We have our seventh member um attending through Zoom. >> Yeah, he can't talk though. He's on a

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plane. >> No, I'm just saying he's here. >> Don't throw him out the airlock. >> Robert, how you doing? If you can hear us, um I'm going to refer to you as Robert. Hopefully, you don't mind that because we already have a Rob. Um, it's going to be less confusion hopefully,

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especially for motions and um, seconds and things like that for the record. Um, we can work that out next meeting if that's a problem. I'm good. Uh, Paul, if you want to keep going. >> Okay.

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So um so those are the discretionary uh uh approvals for special permits. But there are some special permits that actually I would say are not so discretionary because they have explicit standards in them. And so for example the water resource protection district

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you they any project or certain projects that happen within the water resource protection district we need to make sure that it doesn't adversely affect the uh water quality or quantity. and you can see read the that's one of the special permit criteria. The main point of this

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slide is just you need to know the approval standards for each special permit. Um I bring this one up because back when um where the Cumberland Farms in the on West Main Street when that originally came in um we we the planning

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board denied it for on a couple of the special permits. One of which was the electronic message center. I you know don't know why that got denied but it was never brought up but but they only got four votes three

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denials and so you know fortunately that got remanded and taken care of and we have it but that was an example of you know when you're making a vote know what the um you know what the criteria are. Um

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so and uh okay and then um again now this slide just shows what the minimum votes are for the the four types of of permit uh yeah permits that you approve or vote on. The special permit's the

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highest one to achieve because there's a uh Mass General law says you have to have on a seven member board you have to have a minimum of five yes votes super majority. So that even means if you're if a member is not attending or even if you have a vacant seat, you still need

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to get five. So that's a real that's the that's the toughest threshold to get. The others are all a minimum of four yes votes. So simple majority. Um so along these lines, what's important is is uh there's a form called the

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Mullen form that you'll need to complete if you miss a meeting. So, what happens is if you miss a meeting with a public hearing uh for a public hearing on a special permit, in order to retain your ability to vote, you need to watch the video and then submit the Mullen form

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back to the planning department, which will then get it to the town clerk to record it. That keeps you eligible. If you miss more than one meeting, you can't vote on a on a particular special permit or site plan. So, do bear that in mind. You can't do two Mullen forms for

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one project. You have to You can only do it once. >> Quick question. >> I'm sorry. >> Sorry. Sorry. Apologies by Zoom, say we're, you know, out of the town at the moment, is attending by Zoom counting as being in person as well. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Perfect. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you're zooming in, you're

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you're attending. >> Thank you. >> Yep. So, you're good. Uh but keep in mind, if a motion to approve fails, the project's deemed denied. So again, if you have a 43 vote on a special permit, that is a denial. So um

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that's just that's just the way it is. So um >> before you go any further, I'll just make some other notes for the Zoom meetings just so you know. So we always want the chair in the room. So if I'm not available and I'm traveling and I'm on Zoom, Steve would do it or whoever

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else. So we want the chairman running the meeting in the room. Um there's no policy, board policies of how many times you can use Zoom. I think it's a great tool. I've used it a bunch. Um Rob's used it. You might use it. U

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everyone's used it. I think it's great for us to be able to have the option. Um, I do also think it's important for us to have a good amount of us in front of the public, especially for the big I'm not I wouldn't want to have 40 people in the room and it's uh and

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there's only three of us up here and four of us on Zoom just because we didn't want to face the public. >> Um I hope >> it hasn't happened. I don't think I don't think it would happen. >> Um >> I never thought of that. No, I'm kidding. >> I'm just saying it's a great tool so we don't have to miss meetings. The

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supermajority votes super hard. Um the meetings, you've probably seen that that some of these can get spread out over months. Yeah. >> Um so it's pretty easy to miss a meeting. >> Um so it's really important to only miss one. Um especially if >> there's multiple members missing it. It

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becomes a tracking thing and a problem. Um luckily we haven't had to address it. >> Sorry, Paul. >> Yeah. No, that's okay. And one thing keep in mind, too, if you're on Zoom, uh your camera needs to be on unless you're having technical issues, I guess. But I

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know town council more than once has said, you know, camera on. >> Yeah, it's my fault. I I should have yelled at Rob twice already for that and I keep forgetting. >> I was just sitting there thinking, my god, am I guilty? >> I will get better. >> What if you have to miss a meeting? Who do you notify?

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>> Just send an email to to town planner or town staff right now. If you have to miss a meeting, um send one to Brian and CC me or Brian will forward it to me. It's more helpful just for planning and >> if we already know we're going to be missing three people, we'll tell applicants that and we'll probably ask them to continue.

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>> Okay. >> Quite honestly, and we won't if if we know there's three people missing, there's no reason for us to see a special permit in my opinion. If we can push it off a meeting, it's not going to affect our time frames or anything. It's better to do it that way. >> All right. Thank you. Yeah, that's that's important to notify

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us as quickly as you can because we've had u applicants who when they heard one member wasn't attending and they knew they might have had a difficult time getting to five votes, they will ask for a continuance. So, the sooner we can let

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them know, let applicants know that there's going to be a person missing, you know, that helps out. Um I just want to spend a couple minutes and talking about conditions. Uh again this is a very important tool that you

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all have and you can apply them to uh special permits site plans and subdivision plans that they they have to of course relate to the project impacts. So again if like in the example of u screening if if there was concern about

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a visual impact you can you can require u screening uh to protect an adjacent you know the conditions are all about you know uh protecting the adjacent area. Uh but they've got to be tied to the project uh and their impacts. So

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they they can't be arbitrary. Um, we also have to make sure the town has the ability to enforce. Like for example, you you don't want to say, well, we'll make we'll have a police detail to monitor traffic. You know, that's something we we the

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board wouldn't have the ability to enforce. Um, so we just but if if things come up, we can always run it through a particular department, but just always keep the ability to enforce in mind. um you know we don't have all the

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resources in the world. The uh the conditions they need to be clear. Um but also bear in mind that you don't have to be so strict um in all cases. Like for example, you don't have to put in the type of tree

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that someone's going to plant. Um waivers can be granted where the bylaw specifically allows, but where it doesn't, you can't be granting waivers. Um so for example in the uh parking bylaw

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the w there there is a waiver provision on driveway widths but um I don't think there is to for reducing parking. Well anyway there there we don't have a blanket ability to grant waiverss and you know I I did hear

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part of a conversation earlier about the ZBA. It's only where they have the authority, which is typically on the dimensions table, where they can grant variances to standards. So, sometimes they'll you'll see an application that comes in that

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says the ZBA has given us a a variance on the uh building on the lot frontage that they've allowed the reduction from 150 ft to 100 ft. So, you have to be very careful when issuing waiverss. Obviously, you want to make sure you're

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issuing them because the applicant has proven that the waiver is not creating an adverse impact. Um, so typically with conditions, we have standard conditions that we all we put in everyone like you need to record

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it at the registry or that the building inspector is going to inspect or something like that. There are going to be others where you'll think about often times we'll put in hours of operation or lighting or traffic flow screening. Um,

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and then other times there will be specific standards that are already required. So, for example, if a if a special permit comes in and it's triggering the affordable housing bylaw, there are specific standards under the affordable housing provision that needs

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to be in there. And then finally, all conditions must be definite. So you don't want to write a condition that says, well, the applicant should do this. It's it's got to be a shall, you know, make it clear that this is something that you are expecting to be

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done. And then this has not happened, but I just wanted to put it out there. Um, something called constructive approval, and we've not done it, but it's happened in some other communities. essentially if you miss a deadline, a project's

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automatically approved. And so, like, for example, if if if an application is filed and we've accepted it and we don't open the public hearing within 65 days, that will trigger a constructive approval. And it's also on the back end

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where uh there's deadlines from when you close the public hearing to issue a decision. So, I don't want to really spend a whole lot unless you have questions on it. Um, but it's a it's something that, you know, just needs to be back of mind. So, I've I've started

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and um I you know, I'm sure you all will continue when an application comes in. I start to put the some of the deadlines as we know them. So, uh, so we'll put that on the staff memo or we've been putting it on the staff memo

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>> and they can be extended if we ask them to if we're if for whatever reason we're close to the public hearing that for the special permit. Um, there is certain um time frames where we can ask the applicant to extend. >> Yeah. and you want it in right their

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response in writing and then all of that gets put into open gov and it's just all part of the record. Um so before a public hearing um you know review the agenda which will be posted on Thursday before the Thursday

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before the hearing sometimes Friday but usually Thursday. Um all of the documents are in open gov and I know Brian's working on getting all the uh the the two new members uh getting them access to open gov along with email. So

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in open gov you're going to see the application materials. You'll see staff memos and comments. Um, you'll see the peer reviews that come in and any public comments that we receive in writing, we'll post them uh in a in the open gov folder for that particular permit. Um,

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so when you get it before the public hearing, you will want to review the applicable sections of the zoning bylaw, the subdivision ranks, but use the, you know, then use the guides as needed as well. Again, there's the ANR handbook if you want to use that, but it's really

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important to look at the zoning bylaw and the subdivision or subdivision rags to see what you need to know. I had started getting into a practice of using the staff memo to help identify those sections. Um, just, you know, try to

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help focus because there's a lot to read and you don't want to be reading in a section that's not applicable. Um we historically we we've sent staff you know we'll send an email out to the board on Thursday to correspond with the agenda um to summarize the agenda and

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give or give latest updates. So for example if we receive some new material on on an existing special permit we'll let you know that it's there. And then on that point too applicants must provide the material any new material no later than the Friday before the

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hearing. I mean it you you need the weekend to give you some time to look at it. Um and that's been a practice. It's it's been a policy. Um sometimes applicants don't get there and um you know you have to use your judgment. Was it a significant enough change to say

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well we're going to continue or you know or not. But we want to make sure that you have the weekend to look at it. >> Stop you right there again for a second Paul. Uh something that's come up recently that's been on my mind too,

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>> members of the public submitting information to the board the night of the hearing. I'm not sure how a legal it is, b how much the board should be taking those materials without being able time to research

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them. I'm not sure we should be accepting materials from people the night of hearings. I don't know if it's legal. It's something I got to flush out a little bit better in my mind. >> So it if it's from the general public, it is legal and they are not subject to this provision of getting it in the

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Friday before. That's specifically for the applicant. But we do have we have to accept um materials handed to us uh even during the hearing for the first time. And that's what I that's what's that's what's uh

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what I'm hemmed up about is because now the members of the public aren't seeing that material. So if we're voting on something that night, that material doesn't get uploaded to gov to open gov. A lot of times it's sent in ahead of time. I'm the few times where material is given to us at the hearing. Um it's

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not that I don't want the information. That's not what I'm saying at all. >> It's just the the members of the public haven't seen what the person's giving us. So, is that fair to everyone? You know, I everyone should have the information that we're voting on. Everyone should have the same information.

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>> Yeah. >> Um, >> so that's it's only come up a couple times. It's just been on my mind of how to deal with it from now on, >> right? You know, to that point, too, whenever we get an email from, you know, from a resident, you know, not only do you all get it, we send it to the

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applicant, too, so they have a chance to review it and respond. you know, it's only fair and uh but yeah, we can't do that obviously when it's handed to you at the you know, at the public hearing itself and no one's seen it. We can't

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project it on the screen, anything like that. So, um I guess it just depends on the content. Yeah, I'd like to add also that um when it comes to public information, unless they have submitted to the board or come to this meeting and given it to you,

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they have not given information to the planning board. >> You you will have >> Yeah, I'm going to get to that I think another slide. >> Okay, I'll leave it alone. >> That's that's an important point, Rob. >> Well, you know, I so I constantly >> you're not telling me anything,

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>> right? So, I'm going to get to there real quick, but um um now I'm going to switch over to the public hearings and then the the process and especially for the two new members, you know what our process typically is. So, um just so you

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know that all the all those uh special permits, site plans, and definitive plans, we we notice them to a butters and in the sun chronicle. Uh approval not required does not require us to do any notification, but that needs to be on the agenda. So they are um but all

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items for discussion are on the agenda. So please stick to the agenda. Um you know and the chair will always run you know run it like that. But um sometime like recently we had a had a uh hearing where the applicant u the me a member of

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the public started talking about making comments about an item that was not being discussed but it was next on the agenda. We we can't take that. You got you know once an item you can only start taking input once the item's been

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open. So and then um so typically again the chair the chair guides the meetings and so all comments are you know even with the public the applicant are through the chair. So what happens is the chair the sequence

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typically runs the chair introduces the item from the agenda. The applicant is the first one to start presenting and they'll go through their their pres presentation and you know we'll show uh visuals that they've provided or sometimes they run their own presentation but the applicant starts

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with it and they start making their case and then the chair will ask for the ask the board for any questions or comments and that'll start a dialogue with the applicant in that case. Then um from time to time the peer reviewer may be asked to provide comments. So the peer

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reviewer is our uh our engineer typically, but our consultant paid for by the applicant to review the work of their consultants, >> but they're an independent reviewer. They're there to work for the board. So

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you may ask them to speak up and and we've done that in the past with peer reviewers to talk about their findings and so forth. And then after the peer reviewer, the chair will then ask the public for comments. And the public can ask comments both in person or in on

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Zoom. And then again, once the the any of these uh points, the applicant once the chair says so, has the ability to respond to comments. So, uh that's typically how it runs. Um and at the end

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of the at the end of a meeting, there's really one of two things that'll happen. when you'll feel like you have enough information and you'll vote or you'll continue to the next meeting or a future meeting. Sometimes you sometimes uh they won't have enough time to submit the

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information that you're asking for. Um all of our information is available to everyone. We post things on open gov and Dropbox. The only exception is town council uh documents which is protect protected under by confidentiality laws.

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Um um also then the the chair as a rule will provide adequate time for public comments. Some communities will allow only up to 3 minutes. We tended to be

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give more more time for uh public the public to say what they want to say. The other uh rule that I would say is always when you're making a motion always make it in the positive. So, for example, motion to approve special permit number

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blah blah blah. And I remember one time some years ago, we made the motion in the negative motion to deny the special permit or site plan, whatever it was, and it got it failed to pass, so it got approved, which never

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never do it that way. Just always make it in the positive. >> That's really funny. >> I'm going to I'm going to stop you again right there, Paul, if you will. Um, and as you can see with with this slide specifically, this is a real dumb down version of how we run meetings. >> Yes. >> So, the intention is to give this, >> say if someone's starting on the board,

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brand new, at least they have a little bit of something to go by. Or if a member of the public says, "What do you guys do? What are your meetings? How do you guys go about things?" We can have Brian email this and they can go through this by themselves. That's why I say I want to want us as a board to work on it. not necessarily tonight, but

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whatever we have for notes that we want to add to this, um it's just going to make it better going forward for board members and the public. >> Yeah. Thanks. Okay. So, this is going to get to what Rob was just saying, but so some other

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best practices is, you know, again, you're dealing with you're going to be dealing with facts and public sentiment and your own your own beliefs, but um you know, lead with the facts or evidence, but and don't let opinion or emotion override the facts, but it's a

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balancing act. Um treat the public with patience and respect. I mean, as you know, they are the public are they're there because they they have a stake in what's going on. Um, they're usually going to show up because something has been proposed in their neighborhoods and they care about it. And often times when

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people show up, it's because they're concerned about something, but um, you know, they might not be patient or respectful to the board or to an applicant, but, uh, you need to be patient and and respectful to them. So, um, usually

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they're usually they're pretty good. Um, as Rob was saying, social media opinions, it's not the full picture of, uh, public sentiment. >> And I was thinking about this earlier today that, you know, when you're the only information that we can put on the

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record is material that was presented at a public hearing. So whether it's the testimony or emails that were sent or the applications, if it's just posted on social media, that that is not in the public record. That doesn't make it into the decision.

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But I was thinking about this like, well, if someone takes a snapshot of these comments and submits it to us and then it gets submitted to the board and applicants, then it's part of the public record. >> But again, social media opinions are

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just part of the story. But it's really what happens in the public hearing that's the most critical part of it. >> And to add on, Paul, I don't know if we cover this later. I forget. Um there are certain policies we should be following like we can't have all seven of us in a

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text conversation. Yes. >> About a we can't even have three of us. >> Um right. >> If two of us are texting about something, hated this. I I believe that's fine. Um two people. >> Yeah. But I would just stick with the practice. Like for us, we always blind

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copy you on emails. >> So >> to avoid all of that, >> all emails go right to town staff, not >> if if Steve's got a problem and he wants to ask me a question or vice versa. There's a question, it should be directed at town staff and the chair or

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just town staff and town staff will direct it out. It it goes for >> public times, too. We can't be five of us at an event. >> Yes. talking about, you know, things that are in front of us. Even if it's just in the general, it's >> it's not legal. It's a bad look and it's

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just not something >> Yeah. >> Best practices. Save that stuff for the for the for the hearings. >> Correct. >> Uh but if you are in a let's say a one-on-one conversation, do not say I'm voting or not voting for

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it. Do don't do that. you know, that just gives you that'll, you know, potentially put you in a violation. Um, you know, and when you're in the meetings, you know, uh, just switching back to this, you know, please ask your questions of the applicants or of the

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peer reviewer or staff. I mean, the main point in all of this is get, we want you to have the facts you need to make a decision. U, that's the most that's the most critical point in all of this is getting you comfortable to make a decision. So, you know, ask questions.

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Uh, you know, and if you don't, if you think about something after, email, you know, email staff and they can get it out to the applicant. Um, yeah, that's that's a that's a real important part.

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We just want you to be comfortable to make a decision. If you're not if you're not sure you're there yet, um, ask more questions. I've got a >> Ellen had already made the point about um

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you know deliberation. So, right, uh, like the third bullet, you know, don't deliberate on social media, emails, and chat. By deliberation, again, it's talking about here's how I'm planning to vote. Mhm. >> You know, that's uh >> again, I would just say play it safe and

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and really stick to as much as possible, just stick to having their conversation at the public hearings cuz again, you open the door for a a violation and what goes on in in chats and emails, unless

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we get copied on the email, um it doesn't get into the record. So, um, you know, the record has to be the record needs to be very consistent with the information that was provided in the decision you make. Again, we can't be making decisions

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with statements of of fact that were never entered in as facts. So, that's that's a real important thing. But again, just play it safe. Um, you also want to disclose conflicts early. It's like for mainly for us at means are you going to butter

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to it? And um you know so that means are you a property owner within 300 ft of a project and sometimes that happens. In fact one time we had two two of you two of the board members were a butter. So, you know, >> that made right there. Getting to a

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special permit was a was was a, >> you know, that was an example where all five needed to vote for it. Uh, because two members could not vote because they were uh they were abunders. You have the ability to go visit a site as well. Um, but if you're going to enter the

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property, get the permission from the owner. Uh but you can you can again visit a site but again you can't be deliberating on a even at the site because again you you can't have a what they call a walking quorum >> and then >> all that sorry to interrupt you Paul. All that would be done during a hearing.

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We if we ever had something where we wanted to go we would set it up with the applicant. I've done it a couple times where we would have to have to do it. Um like Paul said we can't if we have a quorum there then we have to advertise that as a public hearing. So generally we would we would send two people or we'll have two people if we have to go

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somewhere two people volunteer and they would report back to the board or we would set up multiple different times one or the other. It's not going to happen a lot but it might happen. >> And and to play it safe post an agenda correct and say that a quorum might be there but you know no decisions.

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>> I just want to go back to one more thing before I forget. Well, I've taken some heat from a couple people about letting people talk too long um and setting more stringent timers on people. Um I don't like timing people. I don't think we

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have a huge problem with people giving us information. Um we want to hear from people generally. I've been to meetings and I've been presenting to a I've been commenting to a planning board and the chair literally turned an egg timer on three minutes and then when that goes off it's the next person and there was only two people speaking. It's just a

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bad look unless you guys have a different different feeling. I don't really not going to enforce you know three five if the people are we're not going to I don't we're not going to allow people to give us the same information over and over. That's something I got to get better at. Um on all our projects we know traffic's a

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problem. We want to hear from people what the specific traffic problems are, but we don't need 10 people telling us for 5 minutes about the traffic. >> Um, unless anyone feels differently, I'm not really going to be super stringent on, especially with neighbors that are

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asking questions >> and that are a lot of people are here for the first time and they're buters and they have no idea what they've walked into and so they kind of get their questions as during the meeting. Um unless anyone feels different >> if someone's being you know way too much time um you anytime you can inject into

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when anyone's talking point of order or Mr. Chairman or whatever and say I think they've had enough time I think we just keep that as a policy for now. >> Mr. Chairman to be honest I think the way you've been handling that is fine. You're good at recognizing when people are starting to just talk at a circle

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and repeat themselves. You'll usually mention it. You let them do the repeat one more time and then you before you cut it >> kind of how we're going to handle it going forward unless we want to change that policy. >> No, one other thing I want to add we keep talking about on social media. It's really anywhere. >> So

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>> 100%. It's whether Yeah. >> Dunkin Donuts in line anywhere. >> The button hold at uh Honeydew Y which I think we knew happened to me one day. A group of people and I had to just tell them all. Okay, you're not talking to planning board right now, you know, and they had to come here for

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all the fever I got of honeydew. Not one of those people ever showed up at one of our meetings. I I guess my as a tip I guess and I think this is my personal best practice is I just don't refer to any project individually and always just bring up

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what's actually written in the bylaw. >> Don't say anything else. This is what the bylaw says. So I don't know. >> I'll do that. I'll I I would generally say yes, we have that. We've been seeing that. We're have a open meeting on that. We're talking about that right now. Um or we haven't seen it and it's coming. Something like that. If it's something

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that we've already voted on, it passed, it's public record. It's fine. >> Um, >> tell them why don't you come in and give your input? >> For some reason, I I get random people asking me about things we haven't seen yet. And I'm like, I don't know what that is. And they think I'm lying. And I'm like, I've never seen that before.

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>> Like, so I say a lot of that. I'm like, "Yeah, we're talking about that right now. Come hang out." And then they >> like, "What did my friend do about Taco Bell?" I'm like, "I've never seen a week later." Taco Bell. Sorry, Paul. Sorry. >> Yeah. No. Um, no, that's those are all

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important, very important points. I think another thing just for the new members, too, is which is often times when the public is speaking, um, you're going to hear concerns about traffic, the character of the development, storm

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water, sometimes flooding. Um, when it comes to traffic and the storm water, you know, they're, you know, they're going to typically have a peer review, you know, an engineered an engineering study from the applicant and then have it peer reviewed.

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That's going to weigh a lot, whatever that peer review says. >> So, I'm going to chime in again. Sorry. So, Chris, just you I know you've watched meetings and you're getting familiar. >> So, the applicant will have their engineer, right? And then before the meeting, um, the town will hire, but the

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applicant will pay for a peerreview engineer. So, an engineer working for the town will review all the documents sent to us cuz none of us are engineers, none of us are experts. Um, we want to be relying on the best information as possible. And generally, the peer

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reviewers we use are fantastic. Um, I've yet to have a issue with a something that's been peer- reviewviewed. Um, so I'm fairly confident if one of our peer reviewers is saying something, I'm I'm taking it as fact. That's just my personal.

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>> Yeah, the the challenge is when it it's the character issue. Um, you know, that's more art than science. Um, but again, that's just going to be the balancing act that you have to make your decision on. And um

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you know that's just you know just but again if you have a concern with something like character bring it up. You know you have it gets a little wonky because we don't have in most cases design standards but bring it up. If it's something where you're going I

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don't think I can vote for this based on this problem. You know you you need to just bring it up and let the applicant respond. And if it depends on how they respond is will affect how you vote. Um, oh, you know what? This, we're we're at

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the end here. Um, but the legal compliance summary, these are things you want to be familiar with. The open meetings, law, ethics, uh, public record require obligations, conflict of interest. Um, at the end of the day, you know, document everything.

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We document it. Again, it gets put in open gov. it gets put in Dropbox or we we may be or the town could be changing that up. But um but accountability and transparency is is is critical. It's vital. Um and you know we've been you

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know I think our department has taken a lead on this over the years putting all of your all of your materials out there for the public to see it. Um so but you you want to make sure when you have required ethics training to take it. Um

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again review open meeting law. This is this is all important. You know, we had a you know, uh, you know, during, uh, well, I say recontification, uh, that was what got us into trouble, but not trouble, but we had a, we had an open

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meetings violation, and the state did say you should not have used that word, but you had already fixed it to say uh, uh, >> uh, zoning bylaw update. So, um, but it's it's really critical to know these

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these different aspects of of the law. So that that concludes my presentation. Um anybody you got anything they want to add to this, talk about info to put in this? Um if if not, we can digest it and then unless there's something specific anyone

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wants to talk about right now, I think we'll put this on the agenda for sometime next late winter, early spring before the next board, maybe update it and then do the same thing who's ever here. >> Unless you guys think it's a waste of time, but I don't I think it's good >> nice to go through.

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>> Yeah, I think it's a Especially when there's no one here. >> Yeah, it be sent out for everybody to give it a >> Oh, yeah. We'll all have that's available. We can Brian will email everyone the whole presentation. >> Yeah, I didn't get it. >> And and that last >> Well, I don't think we did email it yet, but I'll have Brian email it to all you. >> Excellent. Thank you.

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>> And that last one, document everything. That's the underlying thing before everything we were talking about about watching where you take input from people and all cuz again, somebody's talking to you and how do you do that's not documented. That conversation isn't. You really need to come in present their concerns here because then they're in

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our meeting minutes. They are part of our record of what we considered. So, you're gonna have somebody tell you you're being ridiculous. You're not. >> Yeah. >> Paul, do you want to roll right into MBTA uh design standards? Just give us a briefing of what's uh going on there.

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>> Yeah. So, um >> that's very loud. >> You know, we the you know, the you veterans might recall we did get a grant um about a year ago to uh to create design standards within our two MBTA

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communities. Um, of course with me leaving I I coordinated with Serpent, who's the consultant on this. You may recall they presented to you all before and then we they had a public event um back in the fall, early winter. So,

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they're planning on on presenting the findings or their their standards um in June. Uh one thing uh the grant does um the grant is over by June 30th.

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Um so on our end we need to make sure that we have all the invoices and that we have we have a deliverable. It doesn't mean that the board needs to take an action by June 30th. It'd be great if you you do because it would be great to tell the state that this

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resulted in an adoption. But the uh Serpent Serpent will be they're continuing to work on the standards. Um they probably would you would probably need at least two meetings to review those standards and you'll have to decide. I mean again you

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you have the ability to just adopt them as a regulation and not in the bylaw. That would be the easier path to take. Um one suggestion I had was You know what? I'm going to get my video off

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again. It's the connection isn't great. >> You look good. >> I feel good. Um but um you may want to do like what we did with Village Center CPS which was we had a working group. Um you know we had in that case three uh three members plus

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we had a me it was Allen when he was on the ZBA actually >> and the the working group or subcommittee sees it first. they do the deep dive and then they report back to the full commission on, you know, whatever changes were made and present that

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version. It might speed it up a little bit in the in the end. >> So, if we do a two member subcommittee, it doesn't have to be a public hearing. They can just work with Serpent at any time. Correct. >> Right. >> So,

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yes, Steve, I was going to nominate you to head that right off the bat. >> Oh, I didn't even know it was a question. Um, yes. If there's two members that want to want to, we'll hook you up with Serpentid and they'll run through their presentation with you guys. You guys can make changes, edit

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it, take this, and then once you guys go through it once or twice, maybe just once, whatever you think you need, um, we'll put it on for a public hearing in a couple hearings from now, and we'll go through it with Serpentid. And then with the whole board, same thing. If we have time, we'll come back and say, "Yeah, we

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want to make these changes." And then hopefully by our deadline of June, whatever, we can vote on it. It does not have to go to town meeting. Uh we can simply adopt it in our meeting. >> Cool. >> So any uh volunteers? >> I see three. We can only have two. We're

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going to have to have an arm wrestling match between Frank and Bridget. >> You guys work it out. >> How bad do you want it? >> I get baseball five days a week. >> What does that mean? You play coach baseball? >> No, I coach baseball. Yeah.

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my two grandsons. But no, I'll work with Steve on it. Unless you I think you're going to have a busy year like Allan said with the uh being clerk. So, it's up to you. >> Okay. >> Flip or I'm wrestle. >> Um I have carp.

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>> You go lefty. >> Yeah, that'll work. >> Yes. >> Bridget really wants to do it. >> I kind of really want to do it. >> Okay. to be okay >> if you don't mind if you don't really want to do it but I kind >> No, I think you're a great choice.

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>> Okay, thank you very much. Sorry. >> So, Bridget and Steve, we'll hook you up with the serpent rep and then uh you guys can probably just do a Zoom call whenever is >> cool, whenever's convenient for both of you and then >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Frank. >> You're welcome. >> Very nice of you. >> Brian, you want to set that up next week

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and do a group text group uh email with the circuit rep? And I did. >> Sure. I don't usually. >> All right. It's going to be Rob Capra most likely. Yeah, >> Rob Cabraw. So, Rob Cabraw is who you guys will be talking to with Serpent. >> Okay. >> And I think you saw one of their bills is for tonight where >> I I did see

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>> paying a portion of the grant tonight. We're not paying for it. It was a grant like Paul said. Um >> so any grants we get if like Paul said, if we show the state, it's not necessarily going to count against us if we don't show that we did it. But maybe in future grants they if the same people

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are looking at it, I do not know how the whole process works. But if we're actually using it and getting our work done and you can show them we're using our funds that we're getting diligently, I'm all for it. Last thing on our agenda um to talk

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about is spring and fall town meeting articles. We have I don't know Brian or Paul, do you want to bring up our town meeting articles um for the spring? It's two small ones. Um, just want to go over those quickly just so everyone knows all the language.

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>> I don't have it. >> Do you don't have it? Brian, do you have that? Or we can >> I can pull it up. >> Could you pull it up? You have a second. I'll keep talking till you have it up. >> Um, so one of the items was generated from the select board. As we all know, one of the items was generated from a mainly

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Steve finding a loophole that we're trying to close. Um, so these are two fairly easy things that should be very complicated at town meeting. >> Um, which is from all I'm seeing right now going to be a lengthy town meeting. >> Yeah. >> I do not know which numbers they are. I

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forget where they are in the articles, but uh >> our friends are printing up flyers as we speak. >> So I I had talked to Steve. Steve is >> Steve was pretty good at uh mustering the and finding this little loophole for the uh I don't have the exact section

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that it was in that we're referring to. I do have it somewhere. >> Definition of top of the shop. >> Correct. Top of the shop. And uh what was the other one? >> Mixed use. >> Mixed use. Yes. Um, so I'm going to take I'm going to do the advis how speak at

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town meeting how the planning board voted and then uh Steve might do a little quick talk to it or we'll have just the language on the board and then take questions. It's not going to be like la last town meeting. We're not all going to be up there, but if we're all

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together, anyone's at at town meeting, if we're all sitting down kind of near the town staff, near the microphone, um I want and it was my bad not explaining it last town meeting. I want all of us to be able to jump up and be in line

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quickly if we have a rebuttal. It's very hard at town meeting to rebut what people are saying or questions they're having. So, multiple people taking action on it, I think, is better than just the chair trying to um make

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notes and and respond to everybody. Um I don't think this one's going to be a huge, you know, problem like the last one was to get through, but just going forward, I think the more of us that are at town meeting and, you know, step up and say planning board member, I just think it's a better look for us. >> Yeah,

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>> the articles are three and 21. So we're before and after >> everything >> everything. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The lift you've gotten curb stomped at town. >> Correct. >> Um so here's the first definition for mixeduse development.

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Um red red line what we're striking. Blue is what we're adding. >> Um >> this is number 21, Bridget. Is that what you said? >> Yes. >> So this is article 21. Um anyone have any questions or comments on this? If not, we'll move on. I'm good though. I read this like a

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>> Brian, you want to just pull up the uh >> Oh, sorry. >> The next one. Sorry. >> It's in a word document. I want to just need a sec. >> Yeah, take your time. >> The only other uh >> discussion I wanted to have to Oh, here

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it is. Brian's got it. He was quick. >> So, this was generated from the select board. Um going back >> there was a lot of the >> select board and there was a lot of push to completely eliminate VCC. Had a

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pretty good productive meeting. Me, Steve, Paul, um couple select board members, a lot of town staff. Um, and we all kind of agreed this would subdue the the problems for now until we can more

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thoroughly address all the issues that everyone has. Um, I don't think this should be controversial at all. Um, I don't want to jinx it, but it's fairly straightforward. And, uh, any questions? >> A comment. Um, I agree. I do want to

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note that FinCom appears to have voted 47. >> Correct. Finom didn't. they didn't like it. I remember they had spoke about it. >> I I didn't for me I'm not sure if they had the full breadth of what it was. It doesn't No one was there to explain it to them. >> Right. >> Um

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>> yeah. Um it is what it is. >> My assumption maybe that they still thought that the full removal of the district was on the table. >> I think so. I I I don't think they had the exact breath of what they were looking at. >> Yeah. I think >> that might have been my fault. I couldn't go to that meeting. >> Um

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>> Well, I I presented it. Yeah, I presented it and and there were they didn't explain why they voted no. Well, but you know, the majority of them did, but >> what about rescending it >> and because they saw the language to say

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rescend it, but then all we all we said was that what was going forward was the reduction in the height. So, >> yeah, that was >> um >> to me, >> so there might have been confusion or concern over the language in the as it was written in the word. >> Yeah. And then just getting over and

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>> this is the third article as of right now. >> Article three. >> Any uh questions or comments on this? We've been over it several times. I just wanted to bring it up one more time with the new members. >> No, I'm good. Where it stands? >> Yep. >> So, the only other thing I'm not sure

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how deep we're going to get into it tonight. Paul had started a document. What do we want to do going forward for fall town meeting? Um my working assumption is we want to have something in front of both town meetings twice a year. Spring needs to be small

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things. Spring town manager, town staff is really budget driven and very busy with budget things. They want to save all heavy zoning and land use items for the fall. However, like in this spring, if there's one or two small things that we can put

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in and make some progress, I definitely want to be doing that. Um, so as a full board, we really have to stop putting together uh a list of what we want to attack for fall town meeting. And I don't think it can be much like we've talked about. I think it's got to be two

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or three small things in separate articles. I'm going to try to avoid just like this has done putting any changes in separate articles so it's more easily digestible and more broken apart. Um Paul Paul and I had talked about a few

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easy ideas and which directions to go. Um and it's also I think what we should consider is what's the best and most impactful thing that we can do right off the bat. Um and so for example and I think uh

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Babroski had mentioned this in one article in fall time meeting we could just do a straight reorganization of the bylaw. same text, same everything, but let's get it into the organization of the document that we have. Um, that seems to be an easy first

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step. And but that's not the only thing I'm saying that as number one. Um, number two, I really want to talk to the board about doing adding, and I'm not sure if Paul you can bring it up or Brian if you have it, the uh fiscal impact um

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language that we have. >> I think adding to our permit criteria. Fiscal impact studies is going to be huge. I think it's going to be helpful for town staff, helpful for town residents. We hear a lot of how much this affects schools,

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how much this affects police, how much this affects fire. Well, if we can have a document um from the applicant and it shows how 70 units affects police, fire, schools, I I I think it works. Um, we do have

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some draft language, I believe. Was this in the rewrite? >> I thought, >> yeah, not all of it. Go ahead. >> Actually, Burbski actually had it, but then Eric uh Norris on his uh right before he left the planning board also

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gave uh a different version of it. >> I thought we had Did we not take it out at one point? I'm maybe I'm misremembering. Do we have it and take it out or it was always in there? I forget. >> It was always in there. That was the one though. Town council said that this is not going to be it might not be

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enforceable under the zoning bylaw, >> but we were going to give it a jab anyways to see what get I think. >> Um I don't know how >> right it should be it should be down at the end. So along with we can talk about do we want to add this? I would say

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an article updating our special permit criteria is probably good. Um do we in that add our noise bylaw? I think that's I guess what I'm looking for is a priority for the board. What does

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everyone think if we came up a list of our five priorities and we all write them down? you know, do all of us have noise? Okay, then that's something we should do next. Do all of us have special permit criteria? That's what we should do next. Um, I just don't want to

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do too much, but I want to do nothing. >> I think your fiscal impact is huge. I I I again I think it would I wasn't in my mind because um we were told by council that it might

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not be enforceable, but I'll have I'll have a little bit more information on it. We'll we'll get it dug into a little bit more by town staff and see maybe I'll see what other towns are doing with it. >> There's two things that are like in my mind for an update. The number one thing

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is design standards for every district. We pretty much only have it for VC% >> and VC is like suggested. >> How much that we already have drafted? Do you like

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>> I have a good amount? >> No, I'm saying do we that we already have in the >> Did we touch the >> Did we even touch design? >> I don't think we we kind of refined it a little bit. Yeah, >> but we didn't we added design standards for like site plan uh site plan review.

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>> Yeah, I don't remember there being a ton. I remember there being something but not a ton. >> We we changed the word shell uh should to shell. Yeah, >> in VC that was the big one but >> right >> other than that not really. >> So I guess >> nothing for commercial, nothing for industrial.

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>> I guess the homework for everyone is >> what do we want to put what do we want to stop working on to put in front of town meeting? Um, literally we have to start working on it in the next couple meetings. Um, at least figuring out what it is and then starting to put it together. Once you start working back

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for our meetings from fall town meeting, it's not that many. >> Um, and with public public hearings and how we want to do it. Um, we're also going to do more with the select board. So there's more I I feel like our eyes

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don't eyes don't get put on this board as much as other boards. So what I want to do is have a list of say five things. This is what we want to put on fall town meeting. Then either with a joint meeting or a couple of us go to the select board said this is what we're

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thinking. That at least tells the select board where we're going and it also tells more members of the public that are watching their meetings where we're where we're going. Um, and then getting their input too also. Um, that's where my mind is on this

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going forward. So, I'm thinking four or five things. Easy. >> Easy. >> We need to get our feet wet again. >> Uncle, >> sometimes you need to win. So, I I I want to put things out there that I'm not saying aren't um hard, but things

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that we can really make a good case for and get a win. and we need to start stepping for stepping forward and making progress. >> Yeah. >> Um >> so where I guess the question is where's our time spent best is what we need to

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think about. And then maybe I'll I'm probably going to have this as this will be on every agenda whether we talk about it or not. It's going to be on every agenda so we can talk about it. >> Cool. Um, so if we rip through our three public hearings and it's only 8:00, we

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can spend 20 minutes, half, whatever. Um, but we'll we'll keep it on the agenda so we can keep talking about it and we keep it in our minds. So that that's the homework. Figure it out. What's your top five things you think we should put? Chris, we'll get you the uh

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it's available the uh >> red line >> the red line version of the zoning bilar update. Um, >> I think it's still on. >> Yeah, it might still be on the town. >> Yeah, >> it might be good to just send out another one and say this is where we stand right now

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>> because there's been a lot of versions. >> No, that's the wrong one. No, the final one is still on. >> The final one's still on meeting material >> 9242. >> So, yeah, Bridget's got it on Dropbox. The final version is on there, it looks like. >> And it's public access.

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>> Yep. It's public facing. We can email anyone that needs it. just uh um email Brian. He can send it out to you. >> Okay. >> Um and go from there. Anyone have anything else that they think would be the

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top of the list for fall? >> Steve, keep going. Do another one. >> Another suggestion for this thing. >> Uh we need Well, our dimensional table, we have very tight regulation for how much can be built in our commercial industrial zone.

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We need to adjust that for infill. If we want commercial industrial revenue, we need to allow them to build on their properties. And we need to allow multiple buildings per lot. >> Multiple >> multiple buildings. >> Multiple permitted buildings. >> Building, not accessory dwelling, not accessory buildings,

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>> right? Like right now, warehouse can't put retail in the front or anything like that >> or like a senior complex. So these like three or four things that we talked about tonight to me the one Steve just brought up probably the most fiscally impactful. >> Um and that's probably where we want to

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start spending our time like this fiscal impact analysis like uh multiple multiple buildings on lot like being able to build bigger on the industrial lots. I think we have to look at it what's our time best spent on that's

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going to drive more new growth for town I think is the best way to look for it. What we really are looking for with updating these bylaws is as everyone knows budgets are tight. We need new growth. We need new commercial growth. >> Um and if they're they're not making much more industrial and commercial land

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out there. We need to be able to add on to what we have. Um I like those two, Steve. and they seem both of those are I'm not going to say easy to digest at town meeting but it's a lot easier than

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a whole document. So that'll be like I said we'll discuss that uh next meeting which is >> I have May I have May 5th >> I have May 5th, June 2nd and June 16th so far. >> May 5th I

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>> think I have a lot of >> Did we not have a second May meeting? No, because town meeting, fall town meeting was on the 18th and then we didn't want to do the 19th because that is going to go >> We're not I'm not doing the day after. >> We can't and it's budget this year. We We can't >> We're going to be there all night. I'm not doing two in a row. >> We're not even We not might not even get

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to article 21. >> April 21st, May 5th, June 2nd, June 16th. >> June 2nd, June 16th. Yeah. >> May 5th, June 2nd, June 16th is all I have. >> Yes. I think we only did those three. >> Um does all those work for you, Chris? Generally, you try to do it with us all

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together. We'll we try to do every other, but if you can't make one and everyone else can adjust the We try to do it as best as possible to help. We want to have everyone if we can move a date around, someone's got a vacation, we'll move a date around

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>> um as long as we can. >> What we'll do is we won't have a second May meeting for now. >> Okay. >> There's not a lot. There's only a couple projects that have come in. Um, if by next meeting we have a need for adding another one,

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we'll vote on another date. We'll come up with another May date. If we have to go back to back weeks or something, um, if we're in that position, we'll we'll we'll figure that out on May 5th. >> I would say probably the 26th, >> back to back to June, but

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>> if we don't need it, we don't need it. I don't mind skipping a week either if it's uh not needed. Paul, anything else before we say goodbye to you for the last time? Uh, anything else you want to bring up? >> No. No. Just again, thank you all.

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>> Thank you. I appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you, Paul. >> Thank you very much, Paul. Good luck in your next endeavor. >> Oh, I'll need it. >> I'm happy. I'm excited for it. >> I thought you said you were happy. >> I'm still on vacation. I'm still on

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vacation. So, I want to get back to vacationing. >> I've got a couple other boring things on my list. Paul, feel free to sign off, but uh I don't know if you want to listen to me drying on. I've just got some notes I draw I jotted down um that I wanted to bring up. Um things I want

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to start doing differently. Same adding on to um it came up with Pine Street. every I'm I'm wanting the applicant to provide more red line versions of documents. So, when they update a site plan for us and

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they send us a new site plan, it can't be expected for all of us to go through and find the nitty-gritty of every site plan. So, we're going to start asking them to at least do a redlinined or a bubble version of it, too, so they can highlight the area that they changed and we can see it. Um, that would be nice. >> That would be helpful. Yeah.

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>> Yeah. It's going to be It's my fault for not bringing it up before. I've mentioned it a couple times. Um it just needs to be done. It's just going to make things >> share for another year. >> Yes, >> maybe. Um let's see. Fiscal impact study time limit training.

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Um one thing I don't know if we're still going to be using Dropbox this whole time. I know there's been talk of changing things. Um but one thing, Brian, going forward, what we have to do because I'm bad at this. Can we put all the attachments like if we have a

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definitive plan and a special permit? Um I want to get better at having all the attachments in both areas in both files cuz sometimes I'm stupid and only look at the special permit and it's not. So if we can have all the documents in both, it's just easier for me.

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>> Yeah. I'll double check the applicant's work to make sure that they're in both. >> Yeah. if we just it's just easier because even though sometimes it doesn't apply to both what it's just easier if all the materials on both files. Um so miss secretary miss clerk I mean sorry

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>> oh yes same one >> with Paul being gone Paul does a lot of heavy lifting at the meetings tracking everything Eric has and we'll have Brian send it to you Eric had worked on I don't know if you already have it. >> No I don't but I know what you're talking about. >> Yeah. So Brian's work h Brian Eric worked on a good um tracking sheet.

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>> Mh. So at the meetings going forward, we need you three specific things right off the top. Jotting down all the conditions that we've talked about. Screening, whatever is brought up during the meeting that's not already written down, we need you to

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have that on paper. Uh same thing with waivers. if we talk about a waiver um or anything that's brought up waiver or conditionwise that's not already written down somewhere and same thing with deliverables if we're asking for we

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need this updated we need this we need that we need a new plan for this we need a new whatever it is >> um I just want a tracking of what's deliverable >> so after the meeting you can at least email that to Brian >> and then Brian can get it Brian's gonna

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have Brian's taking notes as well. However, his notes are more geared towards minutes and the meeting itself going on. If we have your document separate, it's just going to make things quicker and easier. >> Um, I don't think Brian will mind. Does that make sense, Brian? >> Yeah. >> Anything else you want her tracking

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specifically in that tracking sheet going forward? That's going to make your life easier. >> I mean, if you want, Bridget, I can just forward it to you tomorrow and we can see if there's anything else we need to add to it. >> Okay. Is it the same one that he showed us during that one meeting? Okay. Yeah, we look

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>> I know he was changing it a few times, but I I don't know. >> Um meeting dates. Oh, so Brian on the agendas. >> Yeah. >> Can we start adding the next meeting dates? So like the last item,

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last item, last on the agenda, future meetings, and list our future meetings. >> Okay. >> Just so it's easier for everyone and for the public. >> Sure. Sure. I'll remind you of the next one. It'll take a while to remember to do, but I other other boards do it. I think it's just makes things easier.

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>> Okay. >> Um, next meeting dates, meeting length, camera on for Zoom. Concom had a few the last Concom meeting, there was some talk about uh the overlap between how the

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planning board does um peer reviews and how the con rooms do peer reviews and whether they actually work together, whether they're not working together. Um, so I'm gonna have some I'm either going to go to a Com meeting and and talk to um the agent or there was just

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Com wants to make sure that some aspects there was an issue on Pine Street. There was a grading thing that was missed on Pine Street. So grading isn't really for storm water, but it affects storm water, but it's not necessarily in a storm water peer review. So I guess the I guess the thing

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is, is the peer reviewer capturing everything? Are we asking the peer reviewer to do everything? I guess is the appropriate way to put it. Um I think it is. Um is if there's things the peer reviewer should be reviewing that we if

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we see something during the meeting that we want the peer reviewer to look at, we can always ask him to look at it again. Um it's just something that Concom brought up and I had noted that we have to work on. Um I think that exhausts my terrible notes for the evening. Anybody else have anything they want to

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questions, comments, concerns, bring up? >> Chris, you got to have some type of question. >> Uh, not at the moment. Not at the moment. >> You will eventually. >> I will. >> And again, during the meetings, >> ask questions. >> Jump right in. Like if we're in the middle in the Doesn't even matter. Don't worry about it. You saw how many times I interrupted Paul tonight.

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>> Jump right in. >> Cuz it's not going to do you any good if you're >> got a question on something and then it goes for things down. You don't jump in as much as you want. Ask as many questions as possible. Um, but feel free to interrupt as much as you want.

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>> Just a little tip and trick I'll give you. The media center does record and post on their channel all of our meetings and sometimes for notes taking and stuff. It's really handy to review those at home when you're just by yourself and >> can't remember what someone said.

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>> Yeah. One more suggestion. Uh going forward, the more preliminary concept meetings we could do with developers before they actually pitch their final, I' I'd rather suggest a change ahead of time than make them rework their whole

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blueprint if they violate something. >> It's a slippery slope on some of the things. I think 100% I mean these people are meeting with all the town staff before we get anything. All the stupid questions should be answered by the time it gets to us. It doesn't always happen

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that way. Um I was specifically because we don't have a planner um going forward right now. I was going to start jumping in the office with Brian more like if we know an applicant's coming in, I'm going to try to get there so I can be helping. Um

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but 100% um it's not our job to design it for the applicant. It's their job to ask for what it's not our job to tell them what they need either. Y >> um but directing them to the right departments and um

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>> I just having stupid things like I don't every time I shouldn't have to ask why haven't you filed with a fire department. I shouldn't have to bring that up every meeting. >> Um I would I want that signed off before it even comes to us. I want the turning radiuses and everything done before it even gets to us. I think it's stupid

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>> that these people don't know this. Any qualified engineer that's doing this should know that the fire department has to sign off and that should be done before in maybe some circumstances the timing doesn't allow it. They're still going back and forth. Fine. I don't want to hear that. Oh, I haven't approached the fire department yet,

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>> you know. >> Yeah, >> that shouldn't happen. Um that's my pet peeve. It always has been. >> Um >> there's been a few meetings. It hasn't happened that many times where somebody's come in and presented something that's just not even allowed. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

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How how is it at that point that's like that's can we if we can step in before that like yeah >> I mean they all these people like I said have met with all town staff met with Paul met with all we can't stop them from submitting anything either if they want to submit something to us we have to see it >> um

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>> so if they come in and we tell them basically what you said Steve they can still ask to come before the board and so we do so >> so it's just like just like a it becomes just a presentation pretty much. >> It depends how we handle it. A lot of

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times they might not have their idea fully flushed out, so they're looking for us to help them. I don't necessarily like doing it that way. >> No, we shouldn't have to do their homework. >> No. Exactly. Um I don't think it happens all the time. Most of the guys, most of the engineers

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we see are pretty good. Um we see some pretty good projects. Um, I do think there's areas where we can at least hold the if I don't care if we're going to have to hold them off for a meeting for them to get more information. Um, >> it's better that way.

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>> It's better that way. Exactly. >> Yeah, Alan, that could also be a little demanding in your personal time coming in all the time. So, if you wanted to I think most of us would be willing to help out, too. >> I appreciate it. Yeah. If I can, I'll I will >> take a note. >> Yep. If I can't be there, I'm gonna

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volunteer Peter to be there for me. Yeah, he will ask all my questions. >> Put them on my Facebook page and the Peter channel. >> There you go. >> If anyone needs a hand, just shoot me an email or text or whatever. >> Um, any other questions from the board

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or if not uh Paul will say goodbye one more time and uh the chair would entertain a motion. >> Motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> We have a motion and a second. Rob has signed. Robert has signed off, I

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believe. All in favor? >> I >> I opposed. Good night. Thank you. >> All right, guys. >> Thanks for Thanks again, Paul. >> Thank you, Paul. Good luck, Paul. All right, guys. Bye. >> Pleasure working with you.