Tuesday, June 16th meeting of the Norton Planning Board. The public is welcome to participate in person or remotely. We are here in person at the Norton Town Hall at 72 East Main Street in the Crane Room. You may join us online most meetings via the Zoom link in the agenda
that is not currently working. Town staff is working on it currently. Before the meeting, please feel free to email questions or comments to town staff as listed in the agenda. I will call the meeting to order. We have all current
members in person. We are still lacking one member which hopefully in two weeks or so we'll do a appointment with the uh select board is the plan. Um I'll skip all the business policies and bills and warrants
to the end. We do not have any public hearings tonight. We have mainly discussions. Eric, you're listed first. Do you mind if we take lucky green ladies so they don't have to sit through our bylaw discussions? We don't want to bore you to death. Come on up. How are you? Good to see you again.
>> Hey, listen. Long time no see. >> Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Good evening. Um, for those who don't know me, my name's Alyssa. I'm the owner of Lucky Green Ladies. We are a cannabis home delivery operation on Old
Colony Road. We're currently building out our dispensary down the street on Old Colony Road as well. And so we're going to be moving our current delivery operation from 394 Old Colony to 408 Old
Colony. Um because I I have to get a different license because there's two delivery licenses for the the CCC. One is a delivery courier which is basically like an Uber Eats customer orders cannabis delivery.
Um just a driving service goes to pick up the the stuff from the dispensary and deliver right to the customer. What I do now is I basically I'm like a dispensary but with no storefront. So, um, I buy all the products wholesale. I'm holding
them in my facility and then we're delivering to people's house. So, people order directly from me. Because now I'm going to own the retail store, it makes the most sense for me to become the courier, the Uber Eats, so that I will deliver for myself as the dispensary.
But because of that like weird nuance, um, I have to get a new license from the Cannabis Control Commission. Um, and why I'm here tonight is I'm trying to find the um most efficient path forward in um in coming before the board and seeing
whether I could do like a a site modification or um potentially like an amendment to my existing uh site plan and a spe special permit. So nothing at all with the site is changing. Hours of operation
aren't changing. No traffic flow is train changing. Um it's just we're moving down the street. So I didn't I just wanted to come here, I guess, and and get guidance and see what the best path would be to move forward. Uh the
the retail store is going to be ready to open in the next month or so. Um and so I'm kind of in a rush to to move the delivery because I don't want to open them uh separately like for in I want to use all the same inventory. I want to
use all my same furniture. Like, you know, opening them separately would mean me buying everything twice. So, makes most financial sense for me to open them both together. >> Mr. Chairman. >> Yes. >> So, we [clears throat] we already fully approved 401 West Main. Correct. 408,
excuse me. West Main. >> Oh, old old colony. >> Old Colony. Sorry. >> That's already fully approved. >> Correct. Correct. Okay. And then what you're saying when you said you meant you don't want to have them open simultaneously. You want Okay. >> Yes.
>> Okay. >> Yeah, that makes sense. I guess the part I struggle with, I don't believe we can do a modification because it's a different address. Um I don't personally I I didn't get any guidance from town council. I didn't hear any department
heads chime in. I don't see personally a way to do it without doing a public hearing and a a full presentation and a full plan. mainly because it's a completely different address. You could have different abutters. It's a different situation. >> So, this site was approved. >> I understand. But now it's a different
aspect. Delivery wasn't approved. >> Okay. >> And that's I don't know if it's called out differently in our bylaws. >> Um I don't know about that. I did not see Brian, you didn't have any conversations with Ed or uh Mark about this, did you?
>> I did not. >> I didn't see any conversations about it. Um, that's where I'm hung up because we can't modify it because it's a different address. >> Sure. >> We can't I don't believe we can modify the existing permit because it's a
different Go ahead. >> Uh, issuance or transfer or discontinuation of use. Number uh so E2, special permits or site plan approvals issued to a specific owner may be transferred to another marijuana establishment owner or marijuana
or MTC owner operating at the same >> same address. I can't get past the address part in my head. Yeah, I read that. I think that it states somewhere. >> I think if it was the same address, we'd be fine if you were >> Yeah, >> that's where I'm stuck. >> That's where I'm hung up on. >> Yeah, that's where I don't know we can get around.
>> No, understood. Um, >> and honestly to make you feel better, we're not that busy. [laughter] If you can get the paperwork done pretty good, we can pump it through pretty quick. >> I appreciate that. >> Um, unless there's many other board members here. Um, anyone wants to chime
in? That's just the fact I'm stuck on. >> Um, >> sorry. Go ahead. >> Um, do you store vehicles at the other place right now? How many? >> We have three. >> You have three vehicles. Do you have a storage area at the new site? Cuz Okay. So, is it going to be like fenced off or
do you have a garage at the new? >> No, neither. This license type, the Uber license type doesn't require any garage or sally port. >> Okay. >> But the other one does, the one I have now. >> Okay. >> So, um I have no problem coming back
before the board. Um but I guess another question that I have is um can I just use the same do I have to hire an engineer again? You have the same I think we can use the same site plan. >> Okay, great. >> Um, nothing's changing in the building. >> Nope.
>> Um, >> obviously the storage and the security, everything's already marked out in that building on that site plan. [clears throat] >> I really just think it's a quick permit and notice to a butters and quick change. I don't see it being a very heavy lift. I just don't see any
other way of doing it without having you come in. So, the bylaw currently reads that I must have my provisional license in order to come before the board. >> We can wave that. We can do that as a condition of the approval. You not having your We've done that a couple times already. >> Wonderful. I really appreciate
>> that. Won't hold you up. >> Okay. Perfect. All right. >> So, I mean, it's really our next we've got July 7th and August 4th. >> Okay. Okay. >> As the next two meetings, the quicker you can get all that paperwork to Brian and we can jiggle it through the town um
and just do some noticing. I I see that being fairly quick and easy and the best thing we can do. >> I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. >> No problem. Anybody else have any questions or comments? >> You covered everything else. >> Good. Make sure we've dotted eyes. >> Exactly. >> So hopefully we see you in a few weeks.
>> Yes. You don't need fingers crossed. >> We don't have a town planner, right? >> We skipped something. >> What's that? >> You don't need grief later if we [laughter] I got one more question. >> Go ahead. >> Do you have an opening date for retail? [sighs] >> It's I'll really be ready in the next month or two, but it's just going to be
now. I think the what's going to take longer is the delivery, so it'll be contingent on that. If I had to guess, I'd probably say September. I'm really close to getting the certificate of occupancy, but then I have various inspections to go through, but it's going really well over there. >> Good. Thank you. Excellent.
>> So, so we don't have >> Thank you. We don't have a town planner right now, so everything's going to go through Brian. >> Sure. >> Um and then he'll direct it through the town as we can. >> I really appreciate it. Everyone have a great night. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So, that was our toughest issue of the
night, right? Maybe >> we have this guy that wants to talk to us about something in front of us. Mr. Norris, how you doing? >> Hey. Hey. >> Come on up. tonight. >> Do you want your old seat back or No, we have this one.
>> We don't have assigned seats. >> You want I can take take a seat back over there. Just go go down there. Give a second. But uh for the record, my name's Eric Norris, 27 West Hodger Street. Um and two sessions ago, you saw guys were talking about potential things
to bring to uh the Falltown meeting. So, I decided to give you guys an idea. Um >> so, before you go any further, you had shown this to Paul. I've seen this for a few times. I've read through this. Have we gone through it in >> in a meeting? We haven't gone through
>> Paul did see it, but then it was kind of like that transition period where I'm like, I don't think it's got to the board. So, >> it got to me and I didn't get it any farther because it hadn't been time yet. >> It's been an awkward couple of months. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um but no but but I mean honestly when I talking to Brian about it's like
how do I basically try to figure out how to put forward on the even on the uh where you submit for applications there's no comment area or anything. So >> this is actually the right way to do it anyway. >> Correct. >> Uh so no I'm happy to do it though. So
yeah, no I the reason I just want to talk about something I'd like to add to the bylaw is the physical impact analysis for site plan review when I was a member on the board. Um that's is something that came up whenever a project got to a particular size. All the a lot of the residents got concerned
about what's the impact to schools, fire, police and we don't have in this town the planning board does not have a a tool or mechanism to actually ask that question. So my idea was to write it. Um and I want to share that with you today.
Um but why we're doing this amendment um you know kind of what we're saying new buildings they have costs you know. Yeah. Um we have the uh let me see the other reason is like practical we I
wanted another practical tool for the board. It's another another tool discernment so you can get an idea. Um we're protecting the and we're also protecting the tax base because obviously we don't want to have something go up and then our our taxes actually suffer overall. >> And I can remember a couple times, Eric,
we had this exact conversation, I think, with Blueest Star and another big development right in people's backyards and then PE residents asking us, well, this is going to kill the value of my house, this being in my backyard. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> yeah. How can and we had no way of proving it. No way of telling the
applicant. How is this going to affect you know your butters how is this going to affect the neighborhood? There's no >> there was >> way of justifying that or or putting a number to that currently. >> So hopefully what I'm showing you today you will see that this is a good add-on
to our current bylaws. Uh to make it thorough I did have it I have it in three sections. It's one change but it's across three sections because in section 175.1 gives you the purpose. That's where the site plan purposes are already. Uh 15.6
is the objectives of what it is. This would be a brand new objective E. And then finally just an idea of what a submission should look like. Basically giving um a little bit of guidance but you'll you'll see in a second that we I left it kind of open. Um, so this is
actually what the change would look like. Um, it's only the black. We're not removing anything. We're just adding that including consideration of the fiscal impacts on municipal revenue, services, and infrastructure. To me, that's the language needed to alert the people that when they come in, this is
something that's that is going to be asked. So that's and also gives a purpose to why like exactly what we're just talking about. Um, objective E. So this is why we have it in here. And then again should be relatively self-explanatory. Honestly, the most important part of
this um objective E is including but not limited to. So this includes basically four um things that a developer can look at be like okay if they ask me I have to already start thinking about this but because we also have but not limited to
that means when they come before the board you guys can be like okay this is here in this type of project we need more information. So this so we're not constraining we're just saying these are the possibilities we can ask for more burn
>> okay >> and fiscal impact analysis so honestly again kind of the most important part areas that may require there are definitely site plans you don't need to ask for this but like looking at things like um recent developments where we
have subdivisions with like 30 somehat houses going up we h have had apartment complexes. We had two buildings with 64 new new apartments. When it gets to that level, obviously, again, at the discretion of the board, as this is written, you can be like, "No, we we need this. This is now a requirement."
Um, whoever um is the next town planner, this is an awesome tool for them. So, they can have the discussion even before it gets to the planning board, be like, "Yeah, they're probably going to ask for this because of XYZ." So, that's the way it's written like this.
And um so but again it's discretionary so you guys get to really pick and choose the applicant pays. I didn't get a chance to mention that but basically it asks for them to review it on their own dime and you guys can ask for a peer reviewer just like every other thing we
would do that for and the applicant pays for all that. Um it requires a qualified professional. Again it's a little bit open. So you guys if they if they propose somebody, you can actually say we don't consider them qualified. That's why we left it open. I wrote it so it's hopefully consistent with the current
bylaw. I don't want it to be like an aberration. I just want to be a natural extension of what's already there. Basically, I really just want a new tool in the toolbox and it's honestly I it's because there's a lot of discretionary in it. It's it's very defensible. I don't think the way it's currently
written and you know take it with a grain of salt. Obviously, you know, want to talk to town council. Um, but it's flexible and it's defensible, it's basically off of the opinion of the board. It's not really forcing anything, but it's making basically the sum total
of it is it's a awareness that the town has now taken this seriously. Fiscal impact is an important thing and it describes the tools that can be used um to make uh to discern whether or not u impact analysis is required and gives
the board discretion on what it should what it should meet for requirements. Thank you. [snorts] Um so and I also because I had time uh I also wrote the article again part of the proposal. Um and like again you can
since it's one change across three parts it can be written like this to keep it simple. You don't have to do three different articles. You just do one just saying hey we're we're we're updating here here and there. Next one please. So what I'm actually
asking for is I'm asking for the board to adopt this amendment. I'm asking to sponsor it and bring it to town town hall meeting in the fall. Um, I don't have the reach the board does. I don't really have a public forum like the >> You do if we appoint you at a public
meeting to be part of the board for the next year. >> You know, I I'm done. >> Just throw that out there. I'm done. >> See, there's another seat available. >> Denied. >> I saw I saw All right. So, there we All right. No, but honestly, it's what I'm looking [clears throat] for. It's I I really think it's like 90% there. It's
pretty much complete. Um, obviously, you know, if the board did adopt it and decided to sponsor it, um, obviously if they want to make changes at that point, that's completely up to the board. You know, I'm not gonna I wouldn't fight any of that. Um, but yeah, ultimately is to hand it off to you guys. Um, because I
it was two sessions ago, I believe you guys were talking about bringing amendments forward, articles forward, and I thought that was the right opportunity to bring this up. So um >> specifically we're going to try or one of the highlights for town meeting bring forward what what would best phys
fiscally impact the town. What can we do that would have the most impact? >> Yeah. >> Basically and this is one of them in my opinion >> perfectly in the realm >> where I left off with Paul on this is he had or someone had suggested to him that
it might not be legal. I forget where he got that or it might um not be allowed and how we're presenting it. I think I I did my AI attorney assistant um legal advice and uh there's
a few other towns in Mass that have it and it doesn't seem to be anything that prevents us from doing it. Granted, we'll have town council and everything would review it obviously once we get it to a certain point. Um, but I don't there's no big red flag right off the bat that I found saying no, this isn't
allowed in, you know, mass general law this this and this. It's not allowed. I I didn't find that anywhere. So, >> right. No, I did I did some other looking and like I didn't see any >> It's weird. It's not adopted more. So, maybe there's something there, but I didn't I didn't see any roadblocks. >> I forget what town I want to say it was
a town or two in Western Mass or Central Mass that had it. There was no one close that had one >> that I remember. >> It It is town by town. So, maybe I mean I don't know. Maybe they have some other mechanism not directly in >> might not be labeled fiscal impact analysis. That's what I was searching. So >> if anybody's done it that look that
would imply that it's doable. >> Yes, it seems that at least one town has done it and there was no red flag mass journal law saying this isn't allowed that I found but town >> council may not be the standalone reason for a project to be denied but it might
reveal uh some other reasons that we didn't see from the beginning. >> Mhm. If anything to your point originally is the people and I'm sorry I should have said Mr. Chairman um you know people we have people appear before us and they start raising all these
issues to us and we're better positioned to speak to them on it. >> Well that's that's kind of >> disinformation. >> It's for information gathering really. I mean granted I mean it does I I wouldn't say you can't the way it's written you could
disqualify based on it alone >> but I mean you still have to make a strong argument be like okay it's like you know kind of cost a town a million dollars I mean obviously that's a problem if it's zeros it's probably an add-on argument where it's like it's not improving the town so that that's how I
would that's how I would use it as a tool and again once if if it gets adopted and you know passed I mean it's up to again it's up to discretion of the board But that's if I was to use it, that's how I would use it. >> I I have a vivid memory of
whoever was the chair at the time, maybe it was Tim, them getting the question with Blueest Star, how is this going to affect the value of my house and what can I do about it? And us all saying, "Sorry, we have no idea. We have no mechanism to help you >> and [clears throat] that's there's nothing we can do." >> Well, I mean, just even thinking about like the Worester project that, you
know, came up a couple times like if if they said, "Oh, yeah, it is physical. It is fiscal. it won't have any impact at all. Well, now we can say prove it. You know, show us the numbers and prove it. So, that's I think that's again that's kind of >> the important part.
>> So, as far as far as next steps, what we're going to do and we're going to start doing it more tonight. I think this is going to be the first on the list. In two weeks, we're going to have a meeting to appoint a new member that's apparently not going to be you. Um [laughter] but with the select board at that time on the agenda is going to be fall town
meeting warrant articles for discussion. >> Yeah. >> Um I'm trying to get the select board involved earlier in the process and keep them informed more as we go as us just not working in a vacuum and them not knowing what we're doing. And as I was t
talk talked to Steve with a couple times if we can't >> sell the select board and fincom before we put something in town meeting does it really belong going to town meeting >> right no I agree honestly I was thinking that the other part was select board and and yeah the finance team and
>> so I'll probably I'll probably send this presentation to Mark and we'll probably do this at the joint select board meeting if they have the appetite for it and the time depending on their agenda. >> Okay. Um, and the the goal is for fall, pick
a handful. I don't know what the number is. Whatever we think we can actually put in front of town meeting that would pass. And how much information can we actually download to fall town meeting at one time without them having a head explosion? >> There is that too. Yeah, I would be very
comfortable making this one of the top five. >> Yeah, this one's pretty simple because it >> I agree. And like you said, we might there's a few things that we're probably going to want to go over hem and har on. Change this, change that. >> Oh, sure. >> Um, you know how the process goes. We we'll sit here and debate about the same
thing for two hours and end up right back on the same wording, >> right? Yeah. >> But when we can cite one of the things that people, you know, we've been criticized for the past and say we're addressing it. >> Correct. >> That's >> Yeah. >> Well, he's actually and as far as his asked that we go ahead and take the
bottom line champion and sponsoring it, that's fine, right? >> Oh, yeah. I'm >> the alternative. It does provide whoever is the developer an opportunity to actually show that they will have a good impact. >> Oh, 100%. This isn't a whole negative thing for developers either. It it's a
pretty good tool we're giving them to say, "Yes, look, we're going to fit in just fine and we're not going to have negative impacts on your town or the neighbors or the abutters." >> It might help us sometime if they're sitting there, we've got 20 people out here screaming. They don't want us to do it. We're empowered to say, "I'm sorry,
but what you're saying is not correct. I don't think it's doable. I I had thought about this how to present it. I how to make this. It's probably too complicated to start, but like some type of plus minus matrix where you would
have this and then they would have to have all their pluses lined up with all their minuses. I guess how they would present it to us. How would we want them how would we want them to show it to us? I guess is one of my questions if we want to >> how they present the fiscal. Exactly. I left that open for a reason, but to be
honest, it should be primarily numbers. >> Yes. >> And then if you look at the numbers and they say that looks wrong, you get a peer review. That that's really how it's set up. It's not it's not to be it's it's open for a reason. Like you can definitely make a matrix and like it when the next time planner comes, it might be worth having that discussion at
that point. But for right now, I would just look at it like, okay, this this feels good, this feels bad. All right, we need a peer review now because it feels bad, you know. But if it like if it looks glowing and you know they you're confident what they're saying is is at least 50% true then you can feel
more confident about it. >> Well, I think to give ourselves, you know, a leg to stand on, we should do a peer review. >> Just, you know, we do a peer review with traffic studies. >> Might as well do. >> That's actually pretty much what I base this on. >> You know, might as well do a peer review on if they're going to do this for us
>> or we're going to require it, we should require a peer review as well. We don't have to require it, but we can do it on a case-byase basis. Okay. >> But I'm picturing anything that's going to be a larger project. >> Anything on the scale that we're going
to be really asking for this, we're probably going to want to peer review. >> Okay. >> Is what I'm saying. I I I don't want to hamstring it saying in it saying it has to be peer reviewed. >> Yeah. >> If there's something small that like Eric's saying that we all are comfortable with. >> Yeah. I'm talking to you. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> We have the opposite. If they come in,
they're putting some numbers. We're all looking at it going, "Well, I don't think so." >> Yes, we can. >> We want We want the option to have it peer review, but we don't want it to be a man mandatory. I think >> so. Thank you, Eric. [clears throat] >> Do you have any any questions or It
sounds like a at least a robust uh conversation. >> I had the pleasure of reading it and knowing and looking over it before these guys haven't. So, um Brian will email it. Does everybody have it? Everyone Brian has already emailed it. I just got the word that it was coming in today like uh not too long ago. So I just sent
it to Brian like I just finished it like three hours ago. >> Yeah, I don't have >> So that definitely Yeah, please look it over. Um and then I guess through Brian if you have any questions after that, you know, Brian has my email obviously. Um I did include uh just a straight
document um just so it's, you know, cleaner. You can just read it real fast if if you prefer that. Um but yeah, I just to be honest at this point I'm not sure what the next steps are. This is a I haven't gone through this process before, but um is this something where I should come back in a couple weeks or
wait for this? I mean the select board joint if that happens. >> I'll come back just for the grins. >> Yes. Um I want you involved as much as you want to be involved. Um if we can I'll have Brian email you tell you it's definitely on for the select board if you'd like to be there on that. >> Yeah, we'll do that. >> Um absolutely. And the next steps were
we'll we're going to take it to them in a couple weeks. We're going to have a meeting or so that we'll talk about the language, see what we want to change, if we want to change anything before we send it to town council and town staff. Um, and then we're going to have to have a public hearing. We'll have one public
hearing on it before town meeting. Um, and then we'll have to vote to send it to town meeting. >> Sounds good. >> Um, so a few steps involved, but nothing that we haven't done before. Nothing we can't handle. >> No, like I said, it's just this first step was >> Yes. >> hasn't been done before, as far as I
know. So, give it a shot. [snorts] Um, cool. All right. Nothing else. Thank you guys. I I honestly appreciate you taking the time. >> Appreciate you coming in. Don't be a stranger. [laughter] >> You brought your wife, so we couldn't talk you into anything. I know. I know.
That's the only reason you're here. [laughter] >> I [clears throat] think it's us that owes you the thing. So, basically, you sat down and did some work for us. >> Yeah. >> You were gone and didn't have to. You had a lot of this done end of your tenure, weren't you working on this a little bit towards the end of your or
right after >> I had that done? Yeah. Right around the same time. >> Yeah. >> All right. Next on our agenda following this kind of same thing, fall town meeting. What we want to which it's this
is kind of just to continue this discussion. Um >> so this do you want to jump straight into the one you were suggesting earlier, Alan? >> So yeah, you want to throw that up on the screen? >> Yeah. >> Um this one's kind of I don't know if we're going to be able to tackle it or not, but it's definitely a hutball
topic. So Mansfield >> um passed this data center bylaw. >> Yes. Um, they put an absolute ton of work into it. It's absolutely very well done. Um, they have multiple pages, multiple newsletters. Um, so if you want, I can have Brian email you the
link that I sent him today. Um, so everyone can read it. >> Um, it it does highlight. This is like one of their highlight pages, you know, one of their that they were putting out to the public. Um, and then they have one page that's just there by law. This did pass their town meeting. It's in
front of um the legisl the uh attorney general. Now, the attorney general has not signed off on it yet. Um but this is like the case study right now in Massachusetts of a data center bylaw. >> Um they have it broken down into you want to Yeah, you want to log into it.
They have it broken down into three tiers on size of the data center. Um, it's pretty, let me clarify the two of the factors that they're paying attention to, and these are good ones, is power, power consumption, which [clears throat] is a big one. How much
juice is the thing using, and BTUs? >> Power consumption. Water. Water is a huge, and yeah. Okay. And noise. Noise is a huge thing with these I'm hearing across the nation. Um, there's all sorts of problems with these pumping out an insane amount of noise. Um, that going
on to another topic. Is a noise bylaw something we want to talk about for this one or is it not not impactful enough to bring to this town meeting? Um, >> I think noise bylaw is an easy win. >> I I think the noise bylaw is an easy win. Um, we'll talk about that in a
minute. Um, so I'm kind of just keeping an eye on this. I don't know. I don't see us wasting any time doing anything on a data center bylaw until we see if this even makes it past the attorney general. It's I've heard some talk that it's possible the state's going to have
a more of an opinion like they have on solar where you can't reasonably regulate anything. You really can just have a site plan for it and you really can't say no to it. Um that's possible. The state might this and say no and and
force us to do something like MBTA and give us a list of regs we have to adopt. I don't know. Um, so I really don't think it's something we should waste, not waste, but spend any of our time on now. Just be aware that this is something we are going to have to tackle at some point. Um, but at least this is
the test case they're doing all the hard work for us. Um, and if this comes through anytime soon, it makes sense. Maybe we can I'm not saying copy theirs, but we can use theirs as a template and adapt it to our town. Um, >> I know Frank has wanted us to pay attention to this for a while. And uh,
>> I think I was, you heard me talk about this before. I think we should steal from them quite a bit. >> Yeah, whoever wrote this seemed to do a crazy good job. I don't know if they had a grant. I don't know who is involved. Maybe I should reach out to their chairman maybe at some point. That might not be a bad idea on my end. Um, because
I thought it's very well done. Um, so I'll have Brian email you. >> Brian, just email everybody the link please. um to that page and then there's sure I can do that. Plenty of info to uh to go searching through and talk about there. >> Power consumption, BTUs are excellent
factors to key off of there. >> Correct. Um, >> and yeah, noise too. But >> the noise is the one of the killers for neighbors as far as I'm >> Well, they're they're all noisy, but you know, people you can these things they can get very uh technically
the way they talk to you about how big it is and all that. And those are two two good factors to focus on is okay, we don't care how many servers you have in there. We don't care this that what type of chip, you know, >> how much juice you using, how much heat
you producing. >> No, the big the big thing is the water consumption. Plus, they have to backwash. They can't just circulate the water continuously through. They got to backwash it just like a pool. >> Seen seen the videos and the horror stories. So, it's they're going to be
backwashing it into our aquifer. Okay? It's not going to be like one certain filter it goes through. just going to be backwashing through a filter of course, but then has to go somewhere. >> So, >> I know out west they changed the uh temperature of some rivers and really
upset the ecosystem. >> So, I I suppose to piggyback off of this, I don't know how far we'll be able to restrict it, >> but let's get standards in place for data centers >> that are as strict as we can possibly make for when or if we do approve one.
>> But would the the impact study affect this, Alan? impact study will affect everything. >> Yeah. >> And in fact, >> our infrastructure which is our water run on town wells. >> Yep. >> So that's would help. >> It would help. Exactly. It' be another tool for when something like this came
to town. >> And the rivers that we have in this town could not handle much. >> Like I said, it depending on how the state's going to treat this is going to dictate how we proceed. So I'm hesitant to spend any time >> I agree. >> Um doing it until we know how they're going to >> whenever it's in Mansfield. One thing I
didn't, you know, does mean they didn't cover it, but I didn't see it was how do you police it after that? Because they can put in a data center and without anything changing too appreciably on the outside of the building very much increase its capacity >> and so
>> I suppose they're hooked up to meters. >> Yeah. Well, that's what I mean. We'd have to have somewhere where we're regularly checking your power consumption and regularly, you know, I didn't see a Mansfield where they would approve what they said they're coming in with. But there is these are the sort of things they can change on you. So, we'd
want to have a means which we would be on top of it if that happened. And then what do we do? And I'm willing to bet if just knowing how these discussions go and how these bylaws go, I bet you this is a scaleback version of what they wanted. I would just I would just lean
that way. I didn't watch any of the meetings. I have no idea. Um I would guess that they would that they aired on the side of caution and didn't go too strict. >> Yeah. >> Um I'm just guessing >> when it comes to increasing them, we are dealing with an industry that will very
much like to uh ask forgiveness instead of permission like oh yeah no you are we are bigger. We are putting out more heat and all that. We're expect to approve it. If we say no, no, no, you got to go back to your previous levels, that means reduce your capacity and we're going to
wind up in court. >> So, right off the bat, like the three things I have in mind, the third one I haven't mentioned yet tonight that could affect like a data center like this. So, a fiscal impact study like we've talked about, >> noise bylaw that's affecting one aspect
of it. Um, just to brief what we had a we tried to adopt a noise bylaw last fall and basically all we did was copy the state regulations. We did nothing more than put in our bylaw the state regulations and what that gave us was local control. Um, we were able to
police it locally. The health inspector was able to be the enforcement officer on it. Currently, if you have a noise problem, you have to go through the D of the state and it takes forever and nothing happens from what I've been told and what I've heard. um much like anything to do with the state. Um so it
like Steve said earlier, it seems like it should be a fairly easy lift if we just want to throw the state noise bylaw out there. It's a 10 decel limit beyond background noise basically is how it's written. Maybe for the next meeting I'll have it
pulled up. Um and we can have it uh broken down. I'll send it to you all. And Steve's other um idea we were talking about before this meeting. If we think it's a good idea to do the noise bylaw, do we have another amend, another
article teed up? If the noise bylaw passes, do we want to go stricter? Do we want to go down to eight dB? Um there's nothing saying we can't make our bylaw stricter than the state. Um my mind, like Steve said earlier, let's
go for an easy win. And the easy win should be adopting the state regs and just giving us more control. Then do we want to make it more strict? That's another that's another that maybe do it in two stages to make it more apt and more appealing. >> Maybe at the same meeting
>> one article one after another or someone can amend it. Um just a couple different ideas to go off of. The the third thing I'm not sure in my mind I should say it it's not really
it doesn't doesn't have a direct fiscal impact but do we want to have the conversation of adopting our special permit criteria that we had in our bilar update? Um [snorts] I didn't have I didn't tell Brian to pull this up ahead
of time. It it'd be too hard right now probably to pull it up, Brian. Our existing criteria versus our proposed criteria. Um, if you want to just pull up one at a time or if you want, you can pull up the existing one obviously pretty easily because you're halfway
there. >> Excuse me. >> I feel you, man. The allergies have been killer. There is no opinion in this room set. >> I was on Min XDM for a week and a half.
It's killing me. >> Maybe down more. >> I think it's down. Down. >> It's not this one then. >> Not that one. Yeah. That's our site plan conditions.
There we go. >> That's marijuana. Never mind. >> Just marijuana. Yeah. I don't know why I'm blanking what section it's in right now. Maybe you can search for it. >> CRI. >> Steve's feverishly looking himself. I'm
trying to go over the the bylaw update that was >> Oh, the bylaw update one. >> Special permit conditions. >> This the marijuana one again. >> Yeah, >> that's back to marijuana. Yeah, it's before that one. >> 175217.
[snorts] 217. [snorts] Frank, is that what you said or is that was the marijuana one? >> 215 is the marijuana one. >> Try 217. >> Special permit [clears throat] conditions. >> 21.7. >> Yeah, this is still the marijuana. >> Still marijuana.
I have it bookmarked on my computer. I never look it up. >> Special permit conditions right there. Click [snorts] and doesn't take you to >> We're still We're still in the We're still in the marijuana. >> Okay, >> this is my fault. I usually tell Brian what we're going to want to pull up ahead of time and it's easier.
Well, without [snorts] actually reading them because we could >> Here we go. >> Okay, >> keep going. >> I was going to say we could do the details this week, but the general gist of including up as far as what we want to do in town
meeting the update in the spirit you're suggesting. We could agree to that. So, so it's right there where where Brian is. Um so what's it about six things that we're
we're looking for that we have on all our conditions and our decisions that we have to say um economically desirable would satisfy an existing need. The advantage of the proposal outweigh by far any detrimental
effects. such effects on the neighborhood and environment shall not be significantly greater than not if we didn't um these are the basic outline of what we working with now and Brian do you have I know Steve's got it pulled up but it's
on his phone um >> in the new in the bylaw red line from before it's section 10.52 >> Steve you want to email that to me >> it's one of Paul's bylaw updates I can just whatever random document that
this is. >> Yeah. Can you just [laughter] >> Oh, let me see if I can >> hopefully it's the last one. stuck >> sent it. [snorts] >> I apologize, guy. I didn't realize until today. I never did send that to you guys. I did up an email and wherever it
went, I don't know. >> Oh, from last week or last meeting. >> Yeah. So, you got it just from me today. You should have gotten this like a week and a half ago. But [clears throat] while Brian's pulling it up, Steve and I were talking about another quick and easy one we can talk about with Steve's idea. Um, [clears throat] back to the
theme of what would impact um, development the greatest or have the best fiscal impact. Um, Steve's idea is just in the um, dimensional table in the industrial section. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Just make the buildings taller.
>> We can go to 75 ft. Um, >> it' be about six stories. So, it's you're doubling the the floor space, >> effectively double what we would allow. Um, >> right now it's also limited to 33% of the lot. We could bump that up to 50 or
75%. >> We could go to higher lot coverage or we could >> it would be all contingent on a special permit, but we could uh >> So, was it raised to 75 ft from >> raised from 50 to 75? >> Okay. And it goes from I think four
stories to six. >> Back to what we were talking about. Sorry. >> Industrial. >> Yeah, the industrial zone. >> So this is a redline version of what we were [clears throat] proposing at last fall town meeting. Um, and this was some
of from Bravki, his uh take in and some of his special permit uh criteria that I don't know how many towns he wrote for. Um, but basically the special permit
criteria that he was most familiar with. Um, and from my recollection, there was a few areas that gave us a little bit more teeth. Here we go. Those are the six I was looking for. So, it's similar to
what we had, but slightly different. So, social, economic, or community needs, which are served by this proposal. Traffic flow and safety, including parking and loading. We didn't really specify that in what we have now. Adequacy of utilities and other public services, [snorts] neighborhood
character and social structures, impacts of the natural environment, and impacts on adjacent properties. Um, >> we didn't have traffic in there before. >> It's not specifically listed. >> We just always covered it. Anyways, >> it it's it's talked about, but it's not
in the in the like decision- making criteria. This is >> like specifically the criteria we have to spell out in the decision either yay or nay. And I'm not saying we're limited to this. We can change this too. We can add to it. I'm just like would it be easier to just grab like traffic flow
and safety including parking load and just kind of add it into the the older paragraph >> instead of trying to rewrite the whole >> I would like to have it [cough] the old paragraph kind of gets lost sometimes on sentence.
>> Yeah. It's like a giant run-on sentence. I think if it's it's spelled out like this maybe take that paragraph and just transform it into >> this. Exactly. this little break it up, make it a little bit more digestible. >> But doesn't this define what you when
you say okay we're going to have standard conditions [laughter] and just standard condition or standard conditions and but by that term standard conditions >> this is where we define what you mean by that right? >> Yes and no. The standard conditions are different. This is the criteria what we
have to our our decision our finding for the special permit um that the special permit that their their application satisfies these needs our special permit criteria. >> Then there's a there's another section just below this with conditions that can
be applied. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Right there. Go back up just a little. See if we can get one through 10. >> Can't. That's fine. Close enough. Um, see, we we have screening in another
section. Um, appearance of structure. We don't have that really anywhere in our special permit. Size and number of occupants, regulation of design, location of access drives. We we I don't know how many times we went
over this. Several, right? Um, we we gave this, I think, some pretty good thought. >> Yeah. during the bylaw update. Um, like I said, this doesn't really give us a fiscal impact, but this helps us drastically in decisions and
how these projects impact the town. Um, so for me, this is like the third easy somewhat easy one um to present. I don't know if anyone else has any. Again, um
>> I don't have a problem with >> Not everyone. Not everyone probably has this. Brian, in your post meeting homework, can you break out this section and send it to everybody? >> Sure. >> Um don't send them this whole draft because it might not be We'll have to
just make sure we're pulling from the the latest draft, too. Um this is what sticks in my head. Um, but if we pull just the proposed special permit criteria and conditions, um, and email it out to everyone so everyone can read that for the next meeting. This would
probably be the second or third thing I would throw at the select board at the next meeting. It's not that we're want their vote. I just want to take their temperature and see how they see things. >> Anything that's not a change to the town, but is a regulation should be
pretty agreeable. It it gives us more teeth for better development and easier easier to say no or more reasons to say no and have more defensible positions. So if I may make a comment. Yes. Um so
we should probably loop in the zoning board because our standards are with variances and special permits. Mhm. >> So, just to make sure that the zoning board is okay with the changes, we should probably uh present this.
>> Yep. I'm fine with that. I'll do it. Or I know all them. I can uh pay the old crowd a visit and tell them what we're thinking. >> Okay. >> Everyone think that makes sense? >> Yeah. >> Does everyone think it's worthwhile doing at this time? And again, I don't
want to put too much in front of the meeting, but I want to put what's most effective. >> So far, everything we've brought forward has an error of it. This is us trying to work for you, >> correct? >> To the town's people. Um, that helped us a ton this last meeting to present in
that light. >> It's easier to start with saying too, um, we went through the whole ber update and this right now is what we think is the most priority to put in front of you. Mhm. Um, >> yeah, I think just bumping in a little list is perfectly fine.
>> So, yes, it's more than last time, but I think that's fine. The fact that we can present it all in that light, I think >> if we could everything so far, we can present on a couple pages of information. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> short and sweet. >> Exactly. It digestible. You know how I
mean, if this is article 20 at fall town meeting, you know the bandwidth that then mine's gone. Yeah. >> Um, and I know and I've already read it. How how much can people actually digest at that point? >> It took us an hour to hour and a half to get through one >> exactly.
>> I believe Brian, they set town meeting already. Is it uh October? >> October 19th. >> Yep. October 19th. >> Yep. >> I must have missed it. >> So says the I know they voted a meeting or two about it. So boss man says it's October 19th town meeting. So we'll go
with that till he's proven wrong. Um, so that only really gives us that's going to give us like six or seven meetings to get everything done. Um, the meetings in September, we have a September 1st and a September 15th
meeting. One of those meetings will probably h probably September 1st would have to be our public hearing on everything that we want to put in front of town meeting. We'll have to have the language all passed before then. Um, we'll have our placeholder in before
then, but by by the September 1st, we'll have to have the public meeting with the actual language that we want to put in front of town meeting, I think, is what we should be shooting for. Um, that gives us we could add another meeting in July. I'm I'm gone for almost two weeks.
Um, if we think we need to add another meeting, we can, but that gives us >> think we could do it, especially if you're sending stuff out for us to consider in between meetings. So, we already come in here with our thoughts in order. >> Yep. not trying to figure it out as we're sitting here. >> So, right now, data centers is probably a question mark. Right now, the really
they fiscal impact, noise, and special permit criteria. And then the fourth being maybe the the building height, industrial zone, building height. That's four sellable items in far as far as I'm concerned. >> I would count all four of those. I I wouldn't go maybe on any of them except
for the uh data centers because Mansfield is still up in the air. We probably don't want to tackle that yet. >> No. You know, with the industrial zones, the I have a very small portion down the end of my street. I don't think any of my neighbors would want a sixtory
building down by Sult. >> Yep. >> So, [clears throat] that would require a special permit. >> Over 10,000 area. >> Yeah. Every building, every large building requires a special permit. That's one of the things where we said
um you know uh square footage uh parking spaces extra criteria there might be a height add >> the height that triggers the >> anything over 50 ft. So >> which most likely would be 50 right now.
So anything that went higher than right now would be a special purpose. >> So are we just increasing the overall height or are we also increasing the amount of floors? >> Floors also. Yeah, it it would increase the amount of floors. The overall height and then the secondary conversation to
that is >> how much of the lot >> how much of the lot do we want to increase? >> Right now you're limited to 33% of the property. But right now, village commercial can be 75% of the property. And possibly we look to the I've said it
several times the hardest the hardest projects that come in front of us in my opinion are the industrial projects that are but residential. >> Those are the hardest things that we're going to see in my opinion. We see it all the time. Um, and if we want to
start adding, maybe we look at if somehow if you're going to build over 50 ft, do we add >> stepbacks? >> Stepbacks or enhanced setbacks from the residential zone? We have
we have a a a couple sentences on abuing residential uh sorry, industrial projects that abut residential zones. We have screening conditions and things like that already in place. >> Building can't cast a shadow on a neighboring residential property,
>> things like that. Um, do we want to Well, we could talk about adding, you know, if we're going it's as simple as a as a line underneath the chart. If the project is over 50 ft, then the building
has to be set back X from the residential zone. Maybe not necessarily the frontage or just whatever absut or however we want to write it, but specifically whatever abuts the residential zone or the closest property line to the residential zone might be a clean way to write it.
>> Sure. >> Um, we could put something like that in there. >> Then Steve, aside from height, you also wanted to talk the area of the lot percentage. >> Yeah, because like I said, it's it's 33% right now. I'd be much more comfortable
going to 50 or 75. Right now, village commercial allows 75%. Uh, village center core allows 75% of the lot coverage. So, I think I think by infilling our industrial zone, it shifts our entire tax base that way.
>> And I'd be much more in favor of it of being behind it if we had a stricter setback. um you want to go 75 ft, then you're going to have to be up 100 foot from the from the property line. And what that makes is it harder for them to
cover 75% of the lot. Um so you >> or they might have a big building out back and small buildings out front. >> However, however they want to do it. We whatever we want to do, we want to pro protect the residential zone as much as possible. >> Trump Tower incoming. [laughter] >> He wants to pay the tax money.
>> Yeah. Yeah. the data center bylaws. If it's called Skynet, the answer is no. I think we're already there. [laughter] So, industrial zone building height with lot coverage. So, I guess the question on that for
everyone to digest is what's our comfortable number? Um, >> uh, the fire department said I think it I'm going to >> Oh, yeah. >> Yes. I think they said it was eight stories was their absolute max maximum. I don't even want to touch that. >> That's a very important question.
>> Yeah, that that'd be somewhere we can start. We could >> um So, yeah, I don't want to touch that, but six stories at 75 ft is >> we can definitely ask the deputy chief if that's >> I I would still ask him. You can handle six stories, right? Yeah. Even though I think they can. >> Sure.
>> We'd also probably want to involve Ed because he has the building code. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. after we get I'm I'm thinking right after this if we get a little bit more focused direction once we have a good joint meeting with the select board
um then we kick this all around the town departments and see who else to chime in on anything and then we get our our language pretty much satisfied. I think with one good meeting with everything in front of us we have a fairly good start on it. It's we're not we're not
rewriting anything that's crazy amount. I think we can put together the documents fairly easy, I guess, is what I'm saying. It's not too heavy of a lift. We're not asking too much, I don't believe. >> Yeah. And with the further criteria on the site plans and all that, that gives
us much more regulation. Well, increasing in the industrial zone, it counters it a little bit. >> Correct. And right back, the fiscal impact analysis is going to go right to the industrial zone project is is going to kill the Napas. Um,
>> shadow is actually pretty important in brigade tolerability too. >> It happens. We sight lines also. Um, I'm remembering a project two twice we've had to have balloon tests where they float a balloon at the maximum height and
>> seeing if the neighbors could see it. >> I forget specifically what building that was or what project that was, but I think that was a billboard actually. >> I worked for years with John Hancock and that tower was an interesting thing. So, we got our industrial zones called out here. Is that what you're showing us? >> Yeah, they're in and they're in purple.
Uh you might not be able to see them on the screen over here, but you can see them better behind you uh because of the screening um has a different shade and so you'll see that it's scattered around.
>> There isn't a lot of it. The dark part. You mean like the the fuchsia almost? >> The purple. And then the ones that are also striped are also industrial. [clears throat] >> The striped is what? An overlay also or something? >> Marijuana. Is it marijuana? >> Marijuana. >> Okay.
>> I knew it was one of them. I don't remember what it was. >> So striped and the purple. >> Correct. >> Are all of the industrial zones surrounded by residential? >> No. >> Well, >> just the ones that always come before us. >> [laughter]
>> Yeah, they are all touching residential except for right there. >> So, yeah, residential is this color, right? I believe if I remember. >> Yeah, all all the tan. >> Yep. Allan, the zones are to the right if you wanted to look at the key. >> I just couldn't see them. >> Oh, look at that.
>> Yeah, there's not any isolated >> industrial zones. [clears throat] >> This is Maple Street. >> Yeah, it's a touch. >> That's >> Yes, Robert. Unfortunately, That is the answer. [laughter] >> Well, this is only residential because
it was changed from industrial. >> The whole the whole road was a big industrial >> zone. That was when I moved in. But if each department >> Yeah. >> They put all the houses in. They got four feet of water in the basement.
>> If we get one, Peter, >> different state putting them all around the country. >> Yeah. >> Anybody else have any ideas? Uh, that's three solid things to >> I've got five here actually in my notes. We got Eric's fiscal impact statement. >> Yeah.
>> The data centers. >> Data centers. I'm just have I have that on hold for now. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So then four noise ordinance noise. Yeah. So four. >> Okay. Special permit >> and criterion conditions and industrial zone.
>> So for uh working with those four things for our our uh I'll send it out to the boards ahead of time. We'll put together a little call it presentation but just something more easily digestible that or easily
scrollable during a meeting. Brian um we can just maybe add it on. I don't know how we can organize it. Just something we can just scroll through when we're at the meeting when we're at the joint meeting just to do it quickly. I don't want to do a huge presentation on it. All I want is to >> Yeah, I can stitch them together and make a PDF
>> together be able be able to send it to him ahead of time. Send it to Mark. I can forward it out to the select board. We can forward it out to um Bing Call. We'll forward it to the zoning board. Um and that way we can just go through it fairly quickly and take their
temperature at all or none of it and see what everyone's thinking. But also initially as we're getting this stuff out, you know, I don't want to violate open meeting law, but anything that can be sent out for us to digest and consider ahead outside the >> as long as we're not discussing it is we can town staff can send you all the
information you want. Um, >> I'm thinking in terms of shorter meetings, >> correct? Um, no, we just can't be discussing it. >> Okay. But as far as so we'll we'll I'll have Brian and I'll work on it with Brian stitch together like he just said
the fiscal impact analysis then our special permit criteria a quick blurb on the industrial zone with lot coverage that's fairly easy that's just going to be a a quick chart and then just pull the noise ordinance out of the zoning bylaw update. Um, I'm
not saying it's that simple, but it's not it's not setting it. It's We have a very light agenda right now. I don't know about anyone else. I've never seen it this not busy. I've never had multiple meetings with with no public hearings.
It's scary quiet. I'm not complaining. >> Um, that being said, we don't want no growth either, like not having projects in front of us, meaning there's no new tax bases coming in. um really want to get industrial in here.
>> Correct. >> We definitely want commercial industrial. I'm very happy to see a slowdown in housing for a moment. >> Yes. >> Um >> got to balance ourselves out more. >> So that being said, our next meeting's July 7th, I have here. Um other than
that, there will be the joint meeting. What is So select boards every two weeks. They have a meeting. So, >> Thursday, >> they're going to be like July 2nd, I'm going to say. >> No, it' be the 3. That's a Friday,
>> right? >> Cuz that' be the second then if it's a Thursday. >> Yeah, it's July 2nd is a Thursday. >> I don't seem to have any I'll I'll follow up with uh Mark after this meeting. Um
>> Okay. and double check on what schedule and we'll put that out. We'll try to get that hammered down. I work on a discuss think I I said before the meeting they wanted us on wanted to know if we could make this Thursday's meeting. I said I couldn't. It was probably too close of and that was yesterday. Um probably
wasn't enough notice for everyone either. I said please schedule us for the following meeting. Um I'll follow up with Mark >> definitely getting us on there. We'll hopefully appoint a new member. There's at least two people interested. I heard maybe a third possibly. Um I've only
seen two, but at least we have somebody to put in the chair hopefully. Um and then we'll put these I'll tell them we've got these four things we'd like to discuss while we're all together anyway. Um and unless they have a huge agenda, I doubt they're going to say no. So
>> of the three that I had spoke to or the third one, I think you're going to run into an availability problem there to be honest. >> For what? of the three people and I think you know two of them are that I encouraged to contact you and know there was a third but I honestly think she's
would have an availability problem. We'll see. They're >> very somebody who tends to be very preoccupied with other things. >> They're uh multiple people have I've mentioned it to several people. I've mentioned it to old board members, old board members of
other boards. Um I know the select board's been throwing it out there to people. Also, >> one of the guys I spoke to that was Mike said, "Well, I'm going to talk to Allan about it." Then he goes back because I'm not interested. I'm like, "What the hell did you do, Alan?" [laughter] >> Sorry. is Mike Bason who I thought would
have been a good candidate too. >> He was my first text. >> Was he? >> Yeah. >> Oh, [laughter] >> I know Mike. Um, other than that, anybody else have anything to talk about, go over? If not, the chair be looking for a motion. >> Motion to adjurnn.
Second. >> We have a motion and a second. All in favor? I. I. >> Thank you. Have a good night.