--------- Good evening and welcome to the Tuesday, June 2nd meeting of the Norton Planning Board. The public is welcome to participate in person remotely. We are in person tonight at the Norton Town Hall at 72 East Main Street in the Crane Room and you may also join via Zoom as
listed in the agenda. Please feel free to email questions to the board ahead of time to town staff as listed in the agenda. I will call this meeting to order. We have five members in person tonight. Chris, Rob, myself, Steve, and Robert. Uh we have one open seat and one
absent absence. Tonight, we're going to hold off on planning board business and policies and a few other items to the end of the meeting. We will start off with ANR22 for 93 Mansfield Avenue. The owner applicant is
93 Mansfield Landholding LLC. Is there anyone online, Brian, or >> No one representing? >> Uh, no one representing. Ryan Duval had reached out saying that he might be over Zoom to answer questions, but he doesn't seem to be here. So, you want me just to
put it on the >> Yeah, put it up. We can look at it. If we have any questions, we'll continue it. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. But for the new members, we can go over and I'm not sure they've seen an ANR yet. give you a chance to see what it feels like to feel like a god.
>> Can you zoom in? Yep. There you go. >> So, for everyone's information, this is what we call an ANR plan. What this is doing is dividing one lot into two lots. Um, and there's basically only two things that we can look at on an ANR
plan. We're looking to make sure that the two lots that are created have access. Emergency vehicles, etc. can access the lots and can access where any potential structure would be. And we're looking for that it has the proper frontage which in the village commercial
zone is 120 ft. Um so as listed on the plan both lots have sufficient frontage and they but Mansfield Avenue Route 140. So I have no issue with this. I don't know if anyone has any questions or comments. Um this
is really pretty cut and dry. Um, a lot of times the applicants don't even make a presentation because this is so cut and dry. Um, any questions, Chris or Robert? >> Curious what they plan to put there, but it's not really part of the decision. It
>> It's not part I have heard a rumor, but uh I won't I was going to ask, but I won't speculate. >> No. >> I mean, they are the building that's located. It is noted. >> I'm curious. I don't have to know tonight. they'll uh be tearing down the building
that's on the uh current lot. So, if there's no other questions, this isn't a public hearing. We're not going to take public comment. The uh chair would entertain a motion to approve ANR22 for 93 Mansfield Avenue. >> Motion to approve this. >> Second. >> We have a motion and a second to
approve. All in favor say I. >> I. >> I. Opposed. Abstain. >> 5 nothing. >> Do we have the mileage to sign or he obviously didn't bring them? We'll have to get >> They're upstairs. >> They're upstairs. And Ryan, you just got approved, so you
can head off now if you wanted to. >> Okay. Sorry, I joined a little late. Everything all set? >> That's all right. You did a great job presenting. >> Yeah. >> Excellent. Thank you very much. >> Impress. We'll sign the mileage tonight and Brian will be in contact with you. >> All right. Appreciate it. Have a good night, everyone.
>> Thank you, too. >> Bye. Next item on our agenda is a determination for a potential approval for modification of a site plan 6. Modification of site plan 6 modification
of site plan review 10 for 416 Old Colony Road. The owner applicant is Old Colony Realy Inc. application is for a two tenant building originally, but we're going down to one tenant, I believe. >> Good evening. How are you? Good evening
board. Uh my name is Rob Lucier uh with CMG, the representative for the applicant. The owner and applicant is also here tonight at Android the audience. Um so I figured I could just give a quick overview of what we're requesting here for this modification.
Um it sounds like there's a few new board members. So might not be familiar with what was approved back last year. I think it was February of 2025. Um, but essentially what was approved
was the two tenant um commercial building actually is shown with um parking on the side, front and nothing in the rear of the building. The intent was to have a um a restaurant on one
side and then some type of general commercial or retail um and the other side of the building. So, the applicant has marketed the the site and um right now with market constraints, we're
looking to to shift a little bit. Um, instead of doing the two tenant building, we're we're looking to do a one tenant building and rather than the onetory two uh commercial fronts essentially it would be a proposed
twostory building. Um, do you Brian do you have the most recent uh plans? >> Is it this one? >> That's the one. Exactly. Thank you. Perfect. So that's the uh site layout for the the
new um plan. So essentially rather than having that the two tenants it would be one and essentially the applicants looking to to have a commercial or I think it's an electrical contractor move in and the first story would essentially
be um some type of general storage warehouse component while the second story would be um office space for admin and clerical staff. Um the building itself, which there are elevations, which I can go go over a little bit
later, but they haven't changed drastically in design. Um there's obviously two stories now, but compared to what was approved previously, the fascia design, the color schemes are all pretty um in line. Um you will notice
that the layout has changed slightly. There's now less parking in the front of the building um and more parking on the side and in the rear with more pavement in the back. That is because there's overhead doors now proposed in the back
to access the storage areas. Um now with that there's been a slight increase in pavement and imperous area. Um it's approximately 2500 square ft. So we had to update >> 2500 more. >> Yeah, 2500 more. So we we had to um
accommodate that in our our storm water design. So we included a revised storm water report. Um and there were some very slight changes to the approved on-site storm water management system. There's a storm water infiltration an
underground infiltration system in the front of the site which remains that was previously approved. Um we've regraded and reoriented some of the catch basins and then had slightly increased um I
should say uh well yeah I guess increased the elevation of the outlet structure for that there's a storm water basin between the existing uh building I guess if you're looking at the plan to the right and then the proposed building is on the left there's a a storm water
basin in the middle there. So, we're able to increase our static recharge and accommodate that um decreased impervious area to meet the mass storm water standards. Um, additionally, some other changes. Um, we
did we did submit a revised landscape plan. The landscape plan pretty much has stayed the same along the front of the site. We've added more plantings along the building um to be in line with what was previously approved. And then um the
building itself, Brian, would you mind scrolling a few sheets towards the end? I might be helpful just to see what the building's going to look like. >> This is where O'Brien's used to be, right? >> Yeah. The restaurant. >> Yeah. Orion's and Uncle Ed's.
>> Yeah. Dunkin Donuts is the property right hand side. Correct. LJ, >> correct. >> That's the floor plan. So, this is what the building is going to look like. Those are the side elevations. If you scroll down one more Oh, that's the
front. There we go. So, essentially, it was what was previously approved was if you took that second story, cut it off, that's what was approved. So now added the second story with very similar uh you know fascia
design as what was previously approved. Um there are two access points and then there's overhead doors in the back as well. Um and then I guess just to to kind of uh finish my my spiel. Um
we are going to be in front of the conservation commission next Monday. Um this does require an amendment to the notice of intent or the order of conditions I should say that was granted. So um that's there's conservation commission um or additional
conservation commission approvals and then also board of health because this does require a septic system. Um fortunately because it's not a restaurant we're able to decrease the size of the septic system per title five so that's helpful for us. Um, so that'll
require board of health approval. And then lastly, um, this did require a mass DOT curbcut access permit. We've received said permit and as everyone on the board can probably imagine, we're
trying not to go back in front of DOT because we don't want this to be delayed for a very, very, very long time. >> How long did that take? >> Uh, quite some time. I think like a yearish. That's if you can get anybody on the phone over there. >> Yeah. >> So,
>> so luckily, um, we haven't changed anything along the front of the site, so we should not have to get any type of amendment or approvals through DOT. >> It's not really a curb. >> Oh. Uh, existing. Yeah, it's pretty much
open right now. So, the the way, uh, DOT looks at their permitting is even if it's a change of use, they require an access permit. So >> you could technically not even touch the site and they may have authority to
require you to still go and get a permit. So luckily we have handled that. Um so the curb cuts the same site distances are the same. And I assume in that second floor in the middle those
boxes will be some type of signage. >> Is that what the boxes are for or >> Yes. Yeah. You say one one tenant instead of two. >> Correct. >> Oh, is it two? I misspoke. >> Building is built for you know,
>> if you want to talk, could you come up so everyone can hear you, please? And just state your name and just everyone can't hear you. No one online can hear you. >> That's all right. >> We record you and put you on YouTube. >> Thank you. Hi, my name's Edward Android.
Go ahead. Whatever you wanted to say. >> Oh, I just wanted to u I heard Rob saying it was one tenant. It's one tenant. The building is built for two tenants, but the tenant that is uh going to be taking this place is just going to
use the whole thing for himself. But the building will be uh put as uh it'll have two electric meters and two uh >> it would have the capability >> the capability >> future proofing it. Yep. We got >> because I would believe I don't know.
They probably have to go in front of the board too, right? >> Um it depends what the maybe for signage. I'm not sure what else they would need for permits. >> Yeah, I believe. >> What is the use in what's the tenant? It's an electrical uh GH electric. >> Yeah, I don't think it's about right.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think >> it's not our job to tell you what you need for relief. We can summize guesstimate, but we don't give a you know, advice basically. >> I think what Ed is alluding to. >> They're going to have to go for um you know, obviously the building permit,
which will include the review of the signage and >> Exactly. >> you know, if it needs sprinkler system or whatever. You said you're still waiting for something from conservation. >> Yeah, we So, we have to go to a public
hearing for the amended order of condition request which is scheduled for uh next Monday the 8th. >> Okay. Oh gosh, I just remembered something. >> Any other members of the board have any questions? This isn't a public hearing. I I'm going to ask if anyone's here to
talk about this just because we don't usually have a ton of people and I like seeing a bunch of people in front of us. Um, anybody here to speak about this or comment on this or No, I don't think there's anyone online. Brian looking to talk. Um, I will, Mr. Andre, I will tell
you that it's this is a seven member board. Usually, we only have five here tonight obviously. So, we have two votes we have to take. We have to take a vote to either make this a major or minor modification and then we have to vote to approve the modification. Um, both are
simple majorities of the board. I'll ask the board members if anyone before we vote um if anyone has strong feelings against this and I would I would postpone it to another meeting when we
had our at least six member here. Um but I'm not hearing a lot of questions. I'm not hearing a lot of push back. So I whatever if you guys are comfortable we'll proceed through our process unless you have anything else to present. Um, for me, if this was going from an
electrical contractor to a restaurant or if we were more significantly increasing the square footage of the building or changing the access or anything like that, I would lean towards making it a major modification, which would require the applicant to renotice and have
another public hearing and another set of plans and take a bunch more time. To me, this seems like a minor modification. Um the biggest modification he's going to have to make is in front of the conservation which is that's in itself is minor. So personally I have no problem with this. I don't
know if anybody else has any questions or comments. Um as I said if not we'd be looking for two votes. The first vote would be a motion to approve this as a minor modification to the existing site plan as approved.
>> Motion to make it a minor modification. We have a motion by Steve and a second by Rob to approve MSPR6 as a minor modification. All in favor? >> I opposed. >> Abstain.
So we voted to make it a minor modification. Now we need a motion to approve this as a minor modification as submitted. >> So moved. >> Second. >> We have a motion and a second. All in favor? I >> I opposed.
>> Very good. Good luck in front of Com and >> thank you. >> Hopefully you're open soon. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much everybody. >> Have a good evening. >> Thanks. >> You're welcome. >> This was a site plan change, right? >> Yeah. >> A little late than what I'm supposed to
be doing. >> Next item on our agenda is site plan review 22 for one Dean Street. The owner is Rob Calabertie. The applicant is Jamimeir or Jir Castillo. Did I say that right?
>> The applicant is This is a pre-existing lot. There's a pre-existing business operating on this lot right now. And uh we're going to talk about that a little bit more. Good evening. You want to come up to the microphone? There's a little bit of history here, but I don't know if you could uh give your name and address, please, and give
us a brief update of what you're actually doing on the lot, and then we'll dive into submitts and the situation that we're in right now. >> Um, so for the record, my name is J CO. We're at One Dean Street, uh, in Norton. Uh, so as you previously already stated,
um, we have been here for quite some time. This October, I think it would make it our third year mark. Um, so we're a tow company. We literally just use a yard uh for like storage. Um, when I first came into Wendine Street, I was only renting out the rear side of uh
Wendine Street. There's an existing building on the front end where there was a a roofing company and um I want to say this February I took over their lease. They they previously left, so I took over their lease. So now I'm just
renting out the whole space on one Dean Street in the uh the building. So it was basically brought to my attention that uh the property I was only supposed to have 10 vehicles parked on the on the property. I didn't notice. Um so
uh basically what we're looking to uh do on the property is uh just be allowed to park more vehicles. That's it. >> We're not making any uh kind of structural changes or anything like that. How many vehicles are you looking to park? Estimate ma maximum.
>> So general, >> I was told I was told that we would be able to park at least 25. If we wanted to park anything more than 25 vehicles, we would need a special permit. Um I probably have like 12 cars or 14 cars over there. Now, um there is a camper
that we use as an office and there's a small boat uh that we impounded that we unfortunately still have impounded. So that's there. So, counting the boat and the campers, I probably have like 14 vehicles on the lot now. >> Okay. Um, yeah, according to our bylaw,
once you hit 25, you have to go through to a special permit. Under 25, you're you're fine. Uh, it'd be by right as long as you're not doing anything else with them. It's not selling the cars from the lot or anything. Not a deal. >> Yeah, we're not selling cars. We don't have a dealer's license. Anything over
12 spaces you need to have marked out and you have to actually make a parking lot instead of like a dirt area. >> Okay. >> So, we also have a bylaw for storage of junk vehicles um which whether they're wrecked or partially dismantled or
accumulated of auto parts is a another section of the bylaw that has to be satisfied. Um so on the screen is the plan that you submitted. This isn't the plan that we need. Um, I know you've had some conversations with the building inspector. The building inspector, I've
talked to him a few times on this. He could have given you a cease and assist and shut you down. Um, he's a very nice guy. He'd rather work with businesses and not go that route. That's when he determined if we can get you in front of us and just get the proper paperwork done and figure it out that way. That's
what we need to do. Brian, do you have a example of a site plan that you could throw up just to show them? So, basically, we need you to get an engineer and they have to lay out the lot. And maybe this is more to do with your um property owner also. Um it'll be
a much more detailed plan than that is. It'll show the building. It'll show the entrance way. It'll show your fence. It'll show the parking spots laid out. It'll show the property lines and everything like that. After we have that, then all the other town staff can review it. Um so basically the town
staff couldn't review um the plan. So this is the project right before us like we talked to you. So this type of plan, this site plan is what you need. So as you can see it, it shows the building, it shows the parking, it shows the lot lines, it shows everything. Um that's
the type of plan we need from you for this. Um along with that plan, and I don't think any of us have a problem with what you're doing there. Um we have had a few complaints from neighbors. I I'll be brutally honest with you. I live right down the street. I've had multiple people complain because they know I'm on
the board. Um and there'll be a list of conditions going on the plan with what you should and shouldn't be doing. And I'll make an example of tonight I drove by on the way here and you're loading a trailer in the middle of the road, you know, blocking part of the road. And I I know that's not the first time cuz I've
seen it multiple times. So things like that are not allowed specifically for the neighbors and for the road. Like when I was driving by a car had to come into my lane, you know, into the middle of the road. I understand it could just be once in a while you could say whatever. It doesn't matter. Stuff like
that just isn't allowed and that would that activity has to be done in your lot which is harder obviously. Um also with the plan we're going to want things like screening. So we're going to say you know like you have a porter john and you have junk vehicles in the back and you
have neighbors across the street. We're probably going to ask you to propose, you know, like a plantings of abites across the front so we can't see anything. No one can see anything. We'll leave. Obviously, you can see through the gate. Um, but that that's the type of things that we're going to need on
the site plan. Um, we're not going to hem you up tonight. We could we could vote no on this and shut you down right now. I can tell you that because it's for unproper documentation. None of us want to do that. Um, we're more than happy to work with you um and give you some more time to complete it. Um, we do
have a I think Brian sent it to you before, the site plan review bylaw that you're going to have to abide by. Any registered um, engineer will know what you need. There's a lot around here that can do it. Um, and then with the assistance that you can have them contact Brian. Um, we do not have a town
planner right now, but between Brian, the building inspector, and the, uh, conservation agent, um, between all of them will be able to guide you to what you need. Um, so you're definitely probably going to have to contact your property owner and get him involved, I think, would be the best thing.
>> Uh, could I just mention two things really quick? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Um, one, we don't deal with any junk cars or or scrap vehicles. We don't deal with any of them at all. >> Well, the boat, >> okay? >> You know, things like that. Part the >> it's storage of junk vehicles and it
says service. It's you can read the it's 175-7.3. Um, it's just another example of why we need the parking spots laid out because you can have those. No problem. They just have to be incorporated into the parking space. >> No problem. And then the only other second thing that I wanted to say, like for example, um, the gentleman with the
trailer from tonight, he doesn't work with me. I don't work with him at all. Unfortunately, this kind of times that people come, other transporters that come pick up vehicles from us. >> Well, that's your I try so hard to tell them to park to the lot, but I can't control these guys sometimes. They they
always park there. You know what I mean? And you just do it. >> It doesn't always happen, but >> until they do it, right? >> You got to have them back in, >> you know. I I just do want you guys to be able. I don't work with them. And >> Well, you do. They're picking up a car from you. So, technically, they you're a responsibility to your customer.
Technically, you're they're going there to see you or your property and your business. So, you're responsible. >> Okay. I >> I mean, in my opinion, I I would say make the driveway even according to our industrial driveway standards. Mhm. >> So you can fit all the vehicles, the
loading trucks and everything on your property. Put a sign out front that says the town mandates you have to come use this driveway. I don't mind taking the blame, >> right? >> Put it there and make them do it >> cuz you're going to get fined at some point or in trouble for the business. Your cars are going to like you're you
could if you get a special permit, it could be rescended. >> Mhm. >> And unfortunately, you're just in a bad intersection already. You know how bad that is. It's it's just a really quirky intersection. People fly through there. People don't stop when they're supposed to. Like I said, I live right around the corner. I see it all the time. Um, so
you just you have a little extra of a situation to deal with with how bad that intersection is already. Um, do you have any questions for us before I open this up to the board? And like I said, we're I'm available. Brian's available when you have your um
engineer. I think the best thing is to push this out, give them at least a month. Um, we do have Fourth of July built into there. So, I was thinking the we have a meeting on August 4th. Um, we can push it out till then. You can continue to operate till then. Um, but
what I would like to see within a week or two is if you could notify Brian or myself or or please notify Brian specifically that this is who I've selected um as my engineer and he's we have him under contract. We have an agreement and we're working towards the
plan. If you get to August 4th and he's just so busy and you haven't get it done, we'd ask for you to at least show what you have or show something from a uh a letter from the engineer and then we would probably continue from then. Um but we don't have to like I said, we
want to work with you. We don't want to have we want business. We don't want to >> we don't want that inspector have to give you a cease and assist. We don't want legal at least I don't I don't want legal enforcement or anything. That's not good for anybody. Um, so we'll work
with you as much as we can is what I'm trying to say. >> Um, >> I said I I got no problem with the with the business, the concept of it or anything. Just get the parking lot right. In the meantime, if possible, keep the number of cars down. >> Mhm. >> If you don't hit 12, you technically
don't need a marked out parking lot and it's by right. It's an associated use. Okay. So, you can store 11. If you do that, that's fine. Um, just don't make a problem. Store the cars as nice as you possibly can. Keep the noise
down. Try to make it look like a nice little parking lot. That's better. That's all. Any other questions or comments for the board. Otherwise, this is a public hearing. I will go to the audience to see if anyone else has a question or comment.
I don't see any other questions here. >> Sure. Absolutely. If you could just step down. Yeah, if you could just take a seat and then sir, if you could just do your name and address for the record. >> My name is Josh Glazer. I live at 10 Dean Street. I mean, this tolling company's oper operating 24 hours a day
unloading cars in the road. >> So before you >> I'm not going to interrupt you. I just want to along with your permit, there's going to be an hours of operation thing. Specifically, this is one of the hardest situations we deal with when there's a commercial zone right in a residential zone. It's how it is. We have it all
over town, but we have to make it amendable to the neighbors. >> Sorry to interrupt you. >> Can I ask your address again, too? >> Tendine. >> Tendine. Okay. >> So, I mean, even this winter, they had a generator going for their trailer 24 hours a day. Guys in the middle of the
road during the blizzard, and I'm not knocking you, you just picked a terrible spot to do your toward. They're impounding cars from Bridgewater and towing them all the way to Norton. the guy next door to the yard is collecting the money and giving the keys back to the car to the people. Like, I'm not
saying I love small business, but not the place to have a towing company. The bus stop is in front of the towing company, >> you know? There's just no respect for the people that live in that area. The tow trucks, no disrespect, they look like junk tow trucks themselves, you
know, like there's no it's all grass. I'm sure they're leaking oil all over that yard. Is it really something that we want in that neighborhood? >> And I already talked to the building inspector. Who is going to police this? Who is going to go there and count the cars every day? He's not going to do it.
He barely wanted to do anything. So, >> we're all hamstrung by our zoning bylaws. >> And that's what he said. Yeah. So, >> and that's how that's >> 10 cars. He can have 10 cars there. That's what the building inspector told me. >> 10 cars plus his own. >> Okay. >> That's like cuz 11 cars on the property.
Yeah. Yeah. >> So, I'd be very si surprised if there's ever 11 cars there. >> If you don't if you could just address comments to us, we don't try to do a cross- examination or anything. If you just explain to us your problems and then if we have questions for him, we'll answer. >> All right. So, those are my problems. I
feel like >> 100% >> it should not be in that area. I mean, if they did it in a certain time, but how are they going to impound cars and only bring them from 7 to 3 or 7 to 5? Like, that's not really going to work for them. you know, >> there will have to be an hours of operation attached to the to the permit.
>> And I feel like my problem is nobody is going to police that. Nobody is going to do anything. The only inspector drives by there twice a day. >> He lives right up the street. It's not like he's ever going to do anything. This has been going on for months. >> Uh the only
only piece of advice I can have there is the building inspector and every town official has a duty to respond to any complaint. Um, >> he told me to call the police, which I would never do because I feel like that's kind of crappy to call the police on the kid that's trying to make money. You know, I
>> I think if we can get him get you to do this plan and get some proper screening up and get the business off the road and if the neighbor if we can I don't think there's any problems with lighting that I can remember. I drive I live around the corner. I live on Charles Lane around the corner. Drive by there all
the time myself so I know exactly what's going on. >> Um, and this has been going on. The building inspector made us aware of it a while ago. Um, and like I said, he building inspector, this is I'm not trying to put words in my mouth. He had all by right. He could have written a cease and assist, but he thought it was
better to not and try to get it played out and let them keep operating and instead of shutting his small business down in the meantime. Um, anything else? We I got your name. We have your list. Um, this is going to be continued most likely to August 4th. you
know, you won't get another notice. Um, but you will hear tonight to when it's going to be continued to. >> Okay. >> Um, it's possible at that hearing it could be continued again or we could but we would do it in that meeting so you would know what was going on. >> I just feel like I'm not against small business. The roofing company was that was there, they'd show up at 6:00 in the
morning, they'd load their trucks, they'd leave. >> Yep. >> Really no problem. I just feel like an impound yard in that area is not the place to have it. >> It it falls within our village commercial guidelines. Um, so if it was something like a an industrial building
or something that they were doing some industrial process, we would be able to say no and you cannot >> are they allowed to work on cars at that facility like their own trucks and they can use the garage to work on their own trucks? >> Repair and service station permitted in
>> they need a permit to do that. >> I can let me double check. >> Yeah, I'm not sure if it's a buy right or a special permit. I think it's a buy right. everything. If you Brian, you want to pull up uh the uh >> commercial are ridiculous. And I know you guys tried to fix them at one point. That's
what the building was. >> Are they doing repairs outside of a building or in the building? >> Oh, outside the building. >> Okay. So, that is not >> That's not allowed. >> Yeah. >> So, in the village commercial repair and service shops, including auto repair, provided that the work is done in an enclosed building and there's no
long-term outside storage of wrecked cars. So as long if you do it in the building you can by right you don't even have to have a special permit if you're doing work outside that's a different criteria. So as you can see on the screen so this is the chart that we're
we deal with on the top you have R80 R60 R40 VC VCC there this property falls in the VC the village commercial zone. So, if you go down the chart, if it says SP, that's a special permit. That's what we do here. We would issue a special
permit. If it says Y, that means yes, and that's allowed. If it says N, that's no, not allowed. Um, >> so could you tell Brian which uh how far down is you have to go? >> There's one in the commercial category,
which is repair and service including auto repair done in an enclosed space. And then there's an industrial version which is auto body repair, paint, soldering or welding shop >> which is specifically not allowed in village commercial. >> Yeah, it doesn't sound like that's what it is.
>> This is not his primary use. It's like a secondary use to the tow shop. >> Correct. >> But I don't know how much repair you're doing. Like if you're fixing flat tires, I get that. Are you do like pulling out engines and do full repair or anything? Salvage work or any of that. Okay,
>> that was a no, right? >> Okay. So minor repair of just to move a vehicle is not really like, you know, he's not running a a service station. >> I didn't say it was running a service station, but >> our bylaw says, I mean, like I said, you
can fix a flat tire outside. You can whatever you got to do to get the car in the vehicle. By our bylaws, it says you cannot um do service of a vehicle outside of the enclosed building. That's how the bylaw is written. >> And once again, who polices that? The
building inspector. building inspector. >> If you if you see it happening, get some footage of it. That's the best way. Keep a record and you you be honest with your neighbors. They're going to be your neighbors. You all want to get along. >> Don't irritate them. It'd be nice, you know. It's like it's just everybody
wants to have a good time. Correct. >> So Josh, once a decision is made and hours of operation are made, the building uh commissioner can enforce it. So Cland Farms had done deliveries at
5:00 in the morning when they were only allowed 7:00 to 7:00, I think. And so they eventually did stop and there was no longer any problems once he stepped in. >> So basically there's not a set of rules right now that the building inspector
can enforce. We have to give him something he can enforce. So our attached to our decision will be a list of conditions, hours of operation, screening, no unloading, no unloading in the road, all these things that we're talking about will be in there. That's
what makes it enforceable. >> Okay. >> I appreciate it. >> That's as much as we can do. >> All right. Beyond that, if if you and your neighbors have a problem with what's allowed in the village commercial zone,
approach us outside of like an individual proposal. Try to change the zoning. Ask for an update to the zoning. We bring it to a town meeting. That's how we change the zoning. >> Okay, that's probably a pretty good idea. >> The only way we can do it.
>> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you, Brian. There's no one online, right? I didn't see any hands raised on there. >> No, I don't see anybody. >> If you could just give your name and address for the record. >> Thank you. >> My name is Lisa Perry. I'm at 235
Southwestern. So, right next door. Um, we've had some issues with people coming into their lot, stealing vehicle. I had called the police at one point. So, it's kind of me being next door, it's very unsafe. I feel unsafe with people
roaming. Um, we also had u one of the flatbeds blocking our driveway. So, we had to park in front of the house in front of us and try to get down to our home. So, we couldn't find the
driver at that point. So, um um also with lights coming in 2:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning, it's it's very distracting >> Mhm. being over there. Um, so I did have the concerns also with the traffic. Um, you know, obviously everybody knows how
that intersection is. It's horrible. Nobody stops at the stop sign. Uh, but um, basically my concerns were just as my neighbor >> as as far as and I think we've kind of covered them all. Um, but as far as like
adding traffic to the neighborhood, this isn't, put it this way, we can put a 100 unit apartment complex on Route 140 and it doesn't change if we do a traffic study, it's not going to change the traffic impacts to that area. So, this has what would be called even we could
make him doing a very expensive traffic report >> and it's there's no added traffic to the area is what it's going to say. So, as a as if we can get them operating in the property, um operating behind some screening with some more better hours
that are comfortable with the neighbors, um I think that's the honestly best we can do. >> Okay, perfect. Well, I appreciate your time. >> And then same thing, uh we'll be continuing this so uh you'll be able to know when the next meeting is and then we'll do this whole process all over
again. If you want to speak all over again, that's fine with us. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. Absolutely. Come back up if there's any other questions for the applicant and then if not uh >> I just wanted to mention like one thing really quick like the gentleman that you mentioned that lives next door that
that's Mike. Um, I know Mike for maybe like 2 years just working here on One Dean Street. And Mike actually does help me a lot. And Mike actually brought it to my attention that you guys um complained in the past about some of my drivers using the beacon lights at night. And he actually mentioned to me
that they complained about the generator. So the generator, as you guys may know, diesel trucks, new or old, in the cold weather, they don't turn on. So they require a generator to just kind of warm them up. So once I got word that, you know, the generator and the beacon
lights was a problem to the neighbors, we stopped that completely and I told everybody >> once it hits night, nobody should be turning on any generator or beacon lights. And we only use the beacon lights to come in and out cuz the intersection, you know, obviously it's a
dangerous intersection. And so I I totally understand like all your concerns and everything that you said earlier. And I don't take nothing personal. Trust me, I really don't. I've been towing for a long time, so I've dealt with a lot of things and I don't take none of your concerns personal. I hear everything that you're saying and I
just want you to know I want to be a good neighbor. I don't want to be a nuisance to you or my nextdoor neighbors and I don't want to make it hard for you guys. So, I would also appreciate it. You know, if you guys didn't mind, if you ever have a concern, call me. The >> I was just going to say, if you could
just direct the comments to us. We try not to go back. That's all right. >> I have a huge sign outside the towyard with our our number and everything. So, >> perfect. I was going to say we we definitely encourage neighbors to have a call. If >> anybody ever wants to call and say, "Hey, neighbor, don't do this or you know, could do you think we could do this or make this kind of change?" I'm
open to everything. So, >> I just wanted to put that on the record. >> Thank you. Um stay up there for a minute though cuz we're going to >> um as far as scheduling goes, I was going to say the last meeting in July, we have a meeting for July 21st, but I'm going to need to reschedule that. I'm
not going to be available. Um, our only other meeting would would be July 7th or August 4th. There's no way they're going to get it done for July 7th, especially with the 4th of July holiday week. Um, August 4th will be the next meeting that we're going to continue to. Um, that'll
give you should be a good amount of time to make some progress on a plan. If you contact an engineer within the next week, I can pretty much guarantee you'll have at least something to put in front of us. It might not be 100% done. We might have to add to it. We might have some input, but it'll be enough to get
you back and show some progress. That's what the town wants to see. They want to see some progress towards a resolution. Um, and if you could please within as soon as you hire someone, just put the contact information in an email or a call to Brian that lets us know you're doing something. We keep the ball
rolling. I think everyone will be happy. >> What time could I um schedule that on the 4th? >> Um, it's going to be the same time. Yep, exactly. But we start at 7:15. Um, right now I believe you're going to be the only thing on the only thing on the agenda. So it'll be earlier in the evening.
>> Okay. >> But be here at 7:15 just in case. >> So if unless there's any other questions, the chair would entertain a motion to continue. >> Motion to continue to August 4th. Second. >> We have a motion to continue one Dean Street for site plan review 22 to August
4th. All in favor? I I opposed. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Have a good night. Next item on our agenda, special permit 40, 325 West Main Street. The owner is Tom George. The applicant is Jankee Cat
Cotek. The applicant's looking to install electronic message center at Michelle's Corner Store. >> Good evening. How are you? >> Good evening. How are you guys? >> Good. So we are just doing a electronic message board where it says Michelle's corner store. It's 2x6. I think I
submitted the the version with Brian that however how it will look like. We have the property owner here Mr. Tom George. I present this to him. He's okay with it and I am aware with all the rules that you know it can't be blinking
all the time. So, so Brian, if you want to pull up the other rendering of what the proposed sign will look like, and then after that, I'd like to pull up the sign bylaw, please. >> All right. >> If you just change your name to Michelle H. Just give us a second. It takes a minute
to pull things up. >> No worries. You should be getting a nice set of lights there eventually, pretty soon. Yep. >> We've been hearing about it for a while, but we haven't heard any updates from Massdot in a bit. >> I didn't realize it was the second page >> in 2026, right?
>> Yeah, I thought so. >> So, that's the proposed 2x6 digital sign on the existing podium. Um, anyone have questions with this? If not, I'm going TO GO TO THE sign bylaw just so we can There are a few specific conditions for EMC electronic message
centers for the height of the standing sign, but this is pre-existing >> not to exceed 10 ft in height. >> So, this increases the height by a little bit, right? >> Well, this it's a pre-existing non-conforming sign.
>> So, no height change, >> correct? the the building inspector did weigh in said it was appropriately placed and uh I believe if there was if it was a new sign it wouldn't be able to be higher but Steve was just pointing out if it was a new application for a new sign it would have to be 10 ft or
under um these are our specific electronic message center conditions this will be written right in your conditions the the biggest thing is no video no flashing and not changing too quickly so I believe it's 10 10 seconds when it's allowed.
>> Um, >> the last two items are the biggest thing. I did not see this on the submitt, but I think we're going to we don't necessarily need this tonight, but we're going to need this in the documentation. um a light detector which automatically adjusts the brightness according to
ambient light conditions and a brightness regulator which allows the sign to register more than three foot candles ambient light yada yada yada. So I need something from your we need some documentation from the manufacturer of control systems and showing that it can
do that. >> Sure. >> Um depending on >> the sign yeah the sign is being done by uh signs by tomorrow. Is it D? Who's doing the Is it Dacttronics or is it a what? Uh >> No, it's Sirrus. >> What is it? >> Sirrus. It's like Yeah, it's like Dacttronics but cheaper. That's it.
>> Oh, yeah. Dacttronics is expensive >> a lot. Yeah. >> Um Yeah. So, you just We need um before construction, it'll be in the condition. Um Brian, you're going to have to write this into the condition. So, if you want to take it down. Rob, you're the clerk.
>> Yeah, I am. >> Um >> right. There's controls in the interval of the flesh. >> Correct. We need for H&J, we need documentation from the manufacturer. >> H and I, >> sorry, H and I um
that it can do this. I don't think that's a problem. >> No, these are like new. So, this is brand new and they are like really advanced. We can run it with the phone. This and that. You can do anything. >> Yeah. I thought I think this it it already should have it. So, I'll talk to
uh Dave from Science by tomorrow about this and he should be able to send something to Brian. >> Wonderful. Um any other questions, comments from the board? >> Looks like the board doesn't have any questions. I'll ask any member of the public if you have any questions,
comments, or concern. This is a public hearing for a special permit. I don't see anyone jumping up. No one's online looking to chime in, Brian, that I see. No. >> Nope. It's just us and Rob. >> Just us and Rob. I'm going to keep asking though because that's what I do.
Um, if there's no other questions, if you're satisfied, uh, I would have the board look for a motion to close the public hearing for SP40 for 325 West Main Street. >> Motion to close the public hearing. >> Second. >> We have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All in favor? I
>> I opposed. The chair would entertain a motion to approve the special permit for SP40 with our standard conditions along with our electronic message center conditions specifically pertaining to the information we need as stated for H&I. >> So moved.
>> Second. >> We have a motion and a second. All in favor? >> I opposed. >> There you go. >> Brian will get the decision issued and then >> what? >> No, I'm just saying Brian will get the decision issued to notify you and then >> I will. >> Thank you, Brian. >> Welcome. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. Have a good evening. Last item on our agenda. This isn't a public hearing. This is a request for a refund from Zero Leonard Street. Um the applicant does not wish to pursue the application. Is requesting a refund. I believe it's $300. Um I don't
>> I don't believe town staff has a lot of time or effort >> under high check. >> Yeah. in into this project. Um, it's under our purview if we want to grant it or not. I would say if the town had put a lot of time and effort into it
and many meetings between town staff and things like that, not that $300 covers that, I would I would say no to the refund, but I personally have no problem with this. Does anybody else have a problem refunding the 300? Um, anyone here to speak to this?
Nope. Doesn't seem like it. Um chair would entertain a motion to refund the applicant $300 from zero Leonard Street. >> Motion to refund the money. >> Second. >> We have a motion in a second. All in favor? >> I >> I opposed. So I have nothing.
So that's the last last item on the agenda. Um I want to go over next thing is some minutes. Um July 31st I'm going to be away. Um, sorry. July 21st, the schedule meeting. I'm going to be away. Normally, I would say
just one person being away. Steve could handle it or whatnot, but not knowing if we have another member. If we're down to six that we're down to five again, you need five positive votes for any special permit. Um, so
we're really not heavy on the schedule right now. Um, so I can we can just remove that meeting and we can kind of take the temperature as we go if we have to add another meeting. Right now we have June 16th and July 7th. Um, as you probably seen in open gov, there isn't a
ton of applications in front of us. That doesn't mean we can't get a lot of submitts in a short amount of time. So Brian, for right now, let's cancel the July 21st meeting. After that, we have August 4th and September 1st if we have to for whatever reason. I don't like
going backto back weeks, but we could go to July 28th if we had to. Um, and then we would have another following meeting on August 4th. Um, does anybody have a problem with that if we get slammed? And we're really going to try to spread out
applications so we're not here till 11:30 at night. I don't see that happening. Um, it does kind of stink though, too. You know, we missed a meeting um for town meeting. We we should have had a meeting the following the night following town meeting. We were at town meeting till 11:30. I
didn't I knew ahead of time we didn't want a meeting that night. The consequence of that was Michelle's Corner Store has been waiting a month to get onto our agenda. Um so they had asked if we could you know do a meeting last week. I didn't think it made sense. It's not like it was a housing emergency
or a big it was a sign. I I was fine with putting them off a little while. Um, I just don't want to make a habit of people having to wait that long to get on our agenda. Um, >> noted and I hear you on that, but I can't say that that Tuesday I was like, "Oh, damn. I would have liked to done a
power." >> You didn't you didn't want to come to the meeting after that. >> Really happy to stay at my house after that. >> As far as planning, business, and policies, um, >> town meeting takes it out of you. >> I'll note that we're going to have we have, I believe, two or three interested applicants in the opening open um,
planning board seat. We're going to look to have a joint meeting with the select board very soon. It will probably be on a Thursday night. Um we will probably be the first item on their agenda. We will join their meeting. I believe they start at 6. Um you do not have to be in person. You can be remote which is fine.
Um as long as we have one or two people in person um just for a good showing that's fine. But, um, we'll hear from the couple candidates, have them give a little introduction, and then since there's more than one, um, we'll have to
vote on I believe we vote as a group. Um, when there's more than one people, sorry, more than one person, we'll vote as a group on that. >> Um, Thursday was >> we don't have it set yet. >> Along with that meeting, I've been talking to the town manager and, uh, Mr.
Marcen and since we're going to be together anyway, I think we want to talk about fall town meeting also since we're already together. Um maybe a path what the both boards want to tackle. Um we've already started talking about what we want to tackle. Um but it just gives us
another opportunity to see specifically what direction we want to go in. It looks like to me there's going to be a couple things we have to do. There might be a mandate from the state we might have to talk about. Um so about that one. Uh, my recollection with Paul is that we didn't have to because we had
rules technically, but I'm reaching out to Chris and Ed to double check and I'll let you know prior to our joint meeting. Sounds good. Um, but either way, it's good to have both boards together and
to me, anything we do, I really don't want to be going to town meeting without the support of the Select Board and Finance Commission. Um, as far as last town meeting, the finance commission originally didn't support one article, but when they got a little bit more expl
explanation into it and a little bit more information, um, they supported it. Um, I just don't think it's a good look us putting anything out there. If we can't get the select board and the finance commission and board, I'm not sure we should be putting it in front of town meeting. >> I agree. >> Um, that should be kind of our
temperature taker as far as I'm concerned. So the more we can do jointly um between the two boards um I would like to do that as much as possible. >> Totally agree. Um other than that I have nothing else written down for my agenda. Anyone else have anything they want to discuss? If not the chair would detain a
motion. >> Steve, did we want to discuss about what we were talking about with Rob Crawl or do you want to >> Yes. You have an update? Sorry. >> Uh well I I I mean we got a little bit of an update. I had a a short meeting with
Rob and discussed kind of where the what design we want for the MBTA. I think the overall was to make it very pedestrianoriented, good sidewalk space, uh amenities,
access to any nearby wooded areas, trails. It wasn't that heavy um or overly in-depth beyond just like the streetscape mostly and try to make it pedestrian.
>> Uh >> do we have do you have another meeting with them set up to with Frank or >> We haven't set another one up yet. Frank wasn't in that one. It was Bridget. >> Gotcha. So, >> but Frank's on now. >> Frank's on now. >> So, do you think you want to do a meeting with Frank? You guys >> I would like to I think it needs another
round. >> Okay. Um, >> the more the more you can do without bringing it all to us, the more you get done ahead of time, the better it is. And if you can't, you can't. If we have to get them here, that's fine. It's just >> Yeah. I mean, another run through. Um, I would like to see what Frank wants to put into it himself or what his
criticisms or critiques or whatever. Um, I don't mind adding more input. >> And Brian, refresh my memory. I don't have it in front of us. What's the date that we're Do you know it? Was it July or there's a date that we're tied to that the grant is
>> so it would be the end of the month. >> Yeah. >> Um but we do have our serpent extension that we could do of our yearly ask serpent for help with things and Rob
is able to go into July if we need to. >> I I feel like the end of the month would be fine. So at the June 16th, our next meeting is the problem. >> I mean, I can I think I could work out whatever I need to by then. >> So, as far as like adding any more input
>> between you, Steve, Brian, and Frank, um, if we can get something more nailed down and get it to us for the July 16th meeting. Um, and then maybe we can vote on it then, or at least if we can't vote on it then, we can have Rob here. We can ask for another month and we can make some changes and then vote on at the
next meeting if we have to. >> Okay. Refreshing mayor. What does the MBTA want to do or >> so it's what we're we have a grant from Serpentid for design standards. So Serpentid along with our help will be writing design standards for the MBTA overlay district.
>> Okay. >> These are standards that uh the board can vote in and install. We do not have to go in front of town meeting form. Um so it's a little bit easier of a process. Um, and it's basically just design standards, um, like Steve was
talking about, um, landscaping, setbacks, tearing of buildings, anything we want to incorporate into the MBTA to make it more palatable since none of us want it anyway, um, is what we're trying to do. And there's a reason why Serpent
has grants available for them because every town's doing the same thing. There was a there's a call for traditional housing at the Glenn and more modern house like uh buildings along 140 like basically like try to
build something colonial like homey at the Glenn just to try to follow the architecture. >> Some of those buildings you're rotting out from under them too. >> Mhm. >> What? So what are we doing? We're postponing this or >> so we're going to hopefully Steve and
Ken we we formed a subcommittee. Steve and Ken are going to hopefully >> Sorry, I've done that like 10 times. I'm going to keep doing it too because it's just stuck in my brain like that. >> Um Steve and Frank >> Y >> will be uh meeting again hopefully with Rob Cabraw of Serpid. Um, anytime we're
doing stuff like this, like we've done in the past, we try to do a small subcommittee of a couple members to work with someone. They can tune it up with what they kind of think the board will be more have more of an appetite for and then bring it to the full board and then
we can go over it and discuss their changes and discuss whatever um we want to. And so hopefully we can have that on June 16th because the grant is due at the end of the month. Also for note, I did ask uh Rob's availability. His next
available meeting would have been July 21st. So I'll reach out to him, ask if he is available any other meeting. Okay. So if he can't do July 7th, it's going to have to be August 4th. And if he can't do June 16th, maybe we can have the document. Maybe he
can supply us if Steve and Frank u make some pages. Maybe we can just get the document. We can go over the document itself and then get him some more feedback if he wants to do it that way. >> Yeah. If he can't make it, we can just send him what we think and ask him to incorporate what he can.
>> It It kind of depends, I guess, how long he can push it out for. >> If if he can only do a month, then he can only do a month or we don't want to lose the grant. So, whatever we got to do to >> No, it's it's uh fine. We can do the grant. It's uh an extension of the
grant. >> Yes. So, I'm we can ask, but I think it can go longer than a month for uh Serpent's assistance on this. Okay. Well, you work that out with him. Whatever time you can
get us. Um I don't want to let it hang too long. I'd rather have the standards in there than not. Um because you know what's going to happen if we don't. Um we're going to have a project apply and then >> standards are going to be available the next day. Um, so let's try to be as
judicious as possible, but we are limited to the time the times that we have. >> Um, other than that, Brian, do you have anything else? I should have went to you. >> Didn't you have something an email that you'd sent early May on some changes to a application form?
>> You're going to have to refresh my memory there, Rob. >> Okay, let me put up Scroll past that spam modification we'll discuss in June. This one >> oh no we're I was asked to show the
board in advance application. So, >> oh yeah, >> that's the application we had tonight. >> Okay. >> So, what I'm trying what we're trying to do is to get information out to us quicker and more ahead of time. Um, make
the board aware of there's I'm guilty of as much. I don't go into open gov and see how many projects are in there all the time. At least when I was a board member, I didn't. Um, but if Brian just emails is going to be emailing us more specifically, we don't have a town planner right now, so it's um, many
hats, the the quicker we can get eyes on things and if if we see projects coming in front of us and if anyone sees a major flaw in it that Ryan doesn't catch, I don't catch, it shouldn't be whatever case may be, if all our eyes are on it for as long as possible before
it gets here. Um, the goal is always to have the plans and everything in front of us as complete as possible before the meeting. Obviously, there's always changes that most likely changes we're going to make, but we want the applications as complete as possible and we want all the
town um departments to sign off on it. It drives nothing drives me crazy more, you probably know, than an applicant coming here and the fire department hasn't even looked at it. Um, it just drives me nuts. I >> agree. Um, other than that, I would still entertain a motion.
>> Motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> We have a motion in a second. All in favor? I >> I opposed. Good night. Thank you everyone. >> Thank you guys. I appreciate it. >> Thank you. Part: 2
Uh good evening. I'd like to call to order um the board of assessors meeting for Tuesday, June 2nd, and uh make a note that uh present is the full board. Um clerk James Shabbet,
a member Lucas Ray, and myself, the chair, Richard Dorny. Um so why don't we just get into uh the acceptance of minutes. Did anyone have a everyone? >> I did. They look fine to me. Okay. >> Move we accept the minutes of
>> Yep. Make a motion. Accept the minutes. >> Move of of March May >> May uh 13th. >> Okay. Move we accept the minutes of May 13th as written. >> Okay. Second. Okay. All those in favor? I
>> approved. Great. All right. Um, okay. So, we have other business, uh, not on the agenda for this evening. New business, uh, there are a couple of, uh,
uh, items that we need to review and, um, and one somewhat unique that I can't recall doing this before, but um, it's pretty straightforward. Um
this is an abatement turnover report. Uh um an abatement credit. >> Mhm. >> Um it's for um $50 and it's for um the property owners at
47 Harvey Street. I think that that address should pop in our minds a little bit because uh we had uh looked at that earlier. We knew that for the B. Yeah, I remember 27. >> It's the one on the corner of John Scott
and Harvey. One in a little bit in >> Oh, it's a little ways away from the corner. Yeah, >> they've got like a fence around the backyard. Um it's actually um so we're giving a a credit of $50 because um the forms of list there was actually
the property changed over twice within a year and uh so the forms of list didn't catch up to the buyer and and uh there's a business there. >> It's no it's a res form of list.
>> We're here. It's just a turnover. So in other words, I it's a it's a very unusual. He requested it. Um the director of assessing uh agreed to give it. >> Okay. >> I'm just curious why you said form of
list with personal property. >> No, no, no. Turnover. >> Oh, okay. Sorry. Okay. You just misspoke. All right. All right. You threw me off. That's a We got forms of list next, >> correct? >> Okay. All right. >> Yeah. >> Okay.
>> So, it's it's something that um you know, the property turned over. Um apparently it's a two family it's a multif family home >> and um so the it didn't catch up.
>> Multi I'm thinking of a different property >> up the hill. You mean? No, it's uh John Scott Boulevard coming from >> from town going out John Scott, right? You get to the intersection. >> Correct. Take a right. >> It's right going up the hill.
>> Okay, that's different. I was thinking the other corner. Okay, I know what you mean. That is a two family. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, I'd like to make a motion to uh credit $50 a um >> Yeah, make a motion to um credit $50 to
47 Harvey Street. >> Second. >> Okay. All those in favor? >> I >> I Okay. >> All right. Excellent. >> I didn't sign the first one. I left that for you, sir. All right. Thank you.
All right. And um let's put this here. What do we have here? The next would be um the motor vehicle excise tax warrant commitment. And this um
straightforward we get this if you want to look at this this is uh comes from the state and >> correct it's basically a uh it's a commitment to um >> we have to sign it to the treasurer
>> correct revenue doesn't get right so >> and actually there's a followup uh document right >> move to accept the abate turnover report Second. All those in favor? >> I >> I unanimous. Okay.
Then um here we have the uh the actual commitment summary. um for our approval and this is goes to the treasurer as a recognition for revenue coming in. Mhm.
>> Um, you want that? >> Yeah. This is >> So this is money is >> it's it's committed money >> but 205. Okay. This this is the document
to that >> compliment. Okay. So this one do we all sign this one? >> Yep. >> Okay. Oh, wait a minute. There's more than one. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. Now, now it makes sense. So, we accept the report from the state and then we
can commit to the treasury. >> Right. Exactly. >> I'm new with this. Just so you know, >> you got the institutional knowledge though. I know. I'll tell you that course was something else. There was >> there were a couple modules a little
tricky or one in particular. >> Actually, one of them was quite Yes. The one with the numbers. >> Correct. >> Cuz you skim right by where it says refer to this. >> Correct. >> And then you get to the test and it's like what? >> Yep. >> There's something interesting on that. I
don't know if you had noticed the report that you had to go to was for the town of Dana. Oh, okay. I don't remember that. >> The town of Dana is one is Dana Enfield. I can't remember the other town.
>> Quiet or something. >> Yep. I thought that was interesting. >> What was that like 11 towns that >> four towns? Was it four? >> Four towns. >> All right. >> Yep. Okay. All right. Um, moving along. Uh, Jim, board of assesses policies.
>> Okay. Um, I have three that one I'd like to work on tonight. The other two I'd like to talk about and then continue to another meeting. >> Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. >> So, the the first one is the um building
permit process. Currently, we are on the application for certific certificate of occupancy. Um, for somebody to get a certificate of occupancy, they have to come to us. Yep. >> Um, allow an interior inspection of the dwelling or they can't get a certificate
of occupancy. That's against the law. We literally cannot do that. Um, we can't force anyone to allow them into their dwelling for any reason whatsoever. >> So, when you say we, we specifically
the >> court of assessors. >> Okay. So, we said we we the board of assessors cannot require anyone to let us inside their dwelling. >> Oh, correct. Yeah. >> Right. Well, that's currently what's happening. Um
>> Well, that's the history shows that that's a trend that's been going on for years. Correct. >> No, no, it hasn't been that long. It's only been a few years, but it's illegal. And I think we need to stop it. I think
we need to I guess the other thing is why do we want to be on somebody takes out a building permit, right? >> They built the house, >> right? >> Why are the board assessors having any involvement whatsoever >> in deciding whether they get a certificate of occupancy or not?
>> So you So this is referring to new construction. Correct. Or >> currently the policy is you apply for a permit. Y >> get all your ducks in a row. Correct. >> You build it. you got all these inspections and at the end uh the building inspector asks uh he wants
board of health to say we're good >> right >> he wants the treasurer to say taxes are paid >> yep >> fair enough uh conservation commission >> that one's questionable I don't even know if that's actually legal but but we're not the conservation commission >> if you got a conservation permit it's
justified but otherwise I think it >> even then I think they have to give you the certificate of emergency >> yes if you follow >> but where we get to the problem is on on the list is the board of assessors. To get an occupancy to commit, we need a sign off from the board of assessors. >> Okay.
>> Whereby we're requiring that we go inside the house and inspect it. >> We can't do that. >> Now, um your point, you guys both in the in the trades.
>> Yeah. So, um, what happens if you're at 75%? No, you're talking about this 100% off. >> This is the final sign off. >> All right. So, this is town specific to the chart. >> It's the only town I know of
>> that does it. >> Okay. Um just top of my head here thinking um the assessor you just mentioned the building department is kind of the lead person to provide >> right
>> the I mean but there's the fire department as you correct a whole bunch of >> they have to do their inspections >> but the assessors don't >> they're they're independent in the sense that >> that's yeah >> right they don't they
Um that's my thought. >> So the building the building department has their plans, right? >> Yes. So the building department has a you know obviously has to do the inspection for the final seal, right? >> They have to do the walk through, make every make sure everything was built as per the plans and but you know as far
I'm in agreement with Jim that you know the the the assessors has no >> you know justification for coming in and having to sign off for a seal. That's got nothing to do with the assessors. Yes. >> But wouldn't it be well when would that
be that assessment be made by the the board? >> So the assessment could be made based upon the the building plans >> and actually that that but >> that's like kind of a companion issue. >> Well, here's here's >> Go ahead.
going off the building plans or from the building department, the assessors work on kind of a different uh values, right? >> Um meaning >> they're looking at what three or four
things they're looking at. >> Um >> interior structure, exterior structure, you know, walls, uh ceilings to see it's finished off. How >> is it live? Where's the livable space? Oh yeah. >> The but the issue it gets dicey.
>> Correct. >> In a way cuz the issue is we're not allowed to go inside without permission >> no matter what. >> Correct. >> Right. And what's happening here is um what they're saying is if the assessor doesn't go inside, you can't
have a certificate of occupancy. >> I'm going to hold up your seat bel. >> It's not legal. That's what I >> Okay. So that um to be honest, I wasn't aware of up in front. I'm not aware of that. >> Right. That's why I figured let's talk about it.
>> Um it happened a few years back actually with me. >> Okay. >> I got it. I looked at it and I said, "Well, what's that for?" I came over and I said, "I just need this to be signed." Said, "Well, you have to make an appointment." I said, "Okay, well, whenever you want." "Okay, you'll be there. We can get inside." I said, "No,
you can't come inside." "Well, I won't sign it then." And I went home and I thought, "No." boy, is this the hill I want to die on? And it was a hard one cuz going inside to me is absolutely not.
>> And >> and I thought, well, now I'm going to hold up the closing and I have to go to court. >> But and it was 100% done, >> right? >> Signed off by everyone else, >> right? So >> So they weren't assessing at 75 or trying, you know, >> I went to the I waited till Thursday night, went to see the building
inspector to let them know that what you're doing isn't legal. >> Yeah. And I came in and he had the certificate occupancy and he says, "I knew you were coming. I was on the other side of the wall when you had that conversation. Here, here's your certificate of occupancy. Just go away."
>> And at the time, I thought, "Okay, they realized they changed the policy. They never changed the policy." >> Okay. >> He just he knew it was illegal and he gave me the CEO. But it shouldn't just be for me. It should be for everyone. should be >> well,
>> it shouldn't just be >> um people who know the law. >> Yeah. >> We we should be acting in a way that if people don't know the law, we don't abuse them, you know. >> Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. >> Right. No, I knew I knew you'd agree. Um but I guess my question would be, and I
think it's worthy to bring it to the next point, um what what was the reasoning behind it at the time? and >> what are what are the next steps to um see if we can correct it or modify it?
>> Well, that's what I'd like to do tonight is to stop it, take our name off the application, and be done with it. >> Okay. >> I just don't understand I don't see a a justification for for why the assessor needs to get in. If you're building a
brand new home, you know, we should just assume, you know, it's a brand new home. It's nice inside. There's not nothing exceptional. But how would the assessment because the assessment with the board of assessors is I guess I'm not trying to it's live right we're
we're going there >> it kind of >> is live waiting the the plans are are are are >> right they're structured the plans are the plans >> and those were could be revised as
little as 6 months ago or 3 months ago >> well then there would be have to be the building department would have the revised plans. So, you know, >> well, >> in order to sign off on the CR >> and that's what but wait, >> but but I guess I guess what I'm saying is a separate issue. In other words, no
matter what happened, >> yeah, >> we can't require them to let us in. We can't do it. I >> you know, even an abatement, we can't they can say he can't come in, >> but and then we deny him and they don't have an appeal. But well, this is
>> but under no condition. >> You just said it. No appeal. They have no appeal. >> Well, we don't have to deny him on a date either. We just that's up to the discretionary. >> But that's the only case where there's any penalty possible. But the big thing is, and not to get weird, but this goes
back to the fourth amendment of the United States Constitution, that we have a right to privacy within our doicile, and we have a right against unreasonable search. That's that's where it starts. Yeah. >> And um a lot of towns actually have it
on their website that you don't ever have to let us in. They put it right on there. They want people to know. Okay. But but this is I guess what makes this difference is we're not asking. >> We're telling people if you don't let us in >> we won't give you an o and we can't legally do that.
>> So what I'm hearing tonight I I think that's what you're saying >> is something we should look forward and look into and change if we need to. Okay. And change it. But what I want to do before we vote
and >> to be fair, I want to know the reason why we did it. >> I I don't it's an illegal practice and I want it stopped. >> Okay. But there's got to be >> we can always vote again somehow.
>> But there is a reason. There has to be a reason. Do you know how many town Have you done a real deep dive and >> Yes. I don't know of a single town that does this. I ran this by the town manager and he said, "What?" Okay. And I
told him what it was and he said, "You can't do that." I said, "I know that." I agree. 100% I agree. And I've dealt with this as a builder. You know, I'm you know, Jimmy has as well, >> right? >> You know, I dealt I' built several homes in town and I've dealt with this several
times, you know, where we couldn't get our co without the assessor's, you know, autograph and inspection. I thought that was over. >> So, there's other stuff on the actual assessment. I got more, but it's off topic. >> All right. >> So, I'll come around to it. All right.
>> I'm just trying to think this through. >> Mhm. >> Um maybe kind of, you know, 900 ft up, but why why wasn't this a concern earlier? where
>> I kind of surprised myself because >> where has been the the the the the blowback of a sharp points where there's been any >> most people don't blow back. >> Okay. >> That's and that that's my cons my
concern is >> I can tell you why this started happening in Norton. >> Yeah. because and nobody wants to hear it, but this is why it started happening in Horton because our assessing department, our director of assessing wants to go into these homes and value
homes like she's a real estate agent, like like she's a real estate appraiser. And that's >> Okay, wait. I don't want to I was just going to say we can't also we can't legally discuss someone being >> That's fine. So, I'll leave that. All right. So, we won't go there. But but
you know, if you're going to try to, you know, come into a brand new home and say, "Well, they got, you know, extra nice tile, extra nice grant, those home, you know, we're going to raise the valuation." >> But but the bottom line is no matter what, >> you have to let them say no.
>> You're you're saying it's a right >> it's a right to say no. >> Correct. >> And we know >> without penalty. Without penalty. without any penalty other than in the case of an abatement. >> Um, and that kind of makes sense. There's actually no penalty. In other
words, if we have an abatement request and we go down there and they say, "No, no, no. You're not coming inside." Okay. And we look at it and then we get it before us and we can look at it and say, "Well, unless that house is junk inside." No, it's worth that much. Well, you know,
well, you didn't let us inside, so we got to assume it's okay inside >> now, >> right? We don't automatically deny it, but we can look at it and say, you know what, if that house is nice inside and it's this is the size and uh
>> yeah, we overcharge, we can do that. But the the assessor has never >> um >> No, in other words, as a practice, >> 75% 50%, >> right? No, no, no, no. We're always
talking 100 years. We haven't gotten to that part yet, right? >> But so somebody says they file their abatement, >> right? >> The house they live in, >> we go down and say, you know, you can't come in. Okay? So we now as a board we got to look at it and say all right if
we assumed the house was decent inside >> but I you said assume >> we have to because they won't let you in. We have to assume we got no choice. Right. >> But that's that's a that's that gives someone
an assumption to make a decision that you know the how the code >> we have to we have no choice because we can't go in. >> Okay. >> So you look at the house and say okay the house is 26x 36 twotory house with a
twocar garage. Um, normally that house would be worth eight, roughly eight in today's market. So, we look at it and it's appraised at a million and we say, "Well, even if we didn't get in, >> but it's sold for
>> No, no, we don't have that yet." >> Okay. Well, >> that's what I'm saying. I'm I'm I'm specifically taking something where we're going to be flying blind because legally we have to. So, okay. So, let me let me change it. Not changing it, but I'll add more detail.
>> We're going to put a pin on the map because we're looking at the outside. >> We got We're seeing the structure of the outside. >> One of your neighbors, let's just say one of your neighbors. Okay. >> Right. Normal houses. >> Yep. >> All right. It is not for sale. It hasn't been sold. People have been living in it. And they look and they say, "I'm
overassessed. >> I want an abatement." So now we get that in front of us. >> We look at it and we say, "If I drove by and just looked at it, h my guess would be eight, >> right?" >> Yep. We want to come inside. Nope. We're not going to let you inside. So, that's all we got. Now, let's say it's assessed
at 775. Then we would probably look at it and say, "No, I mean that house is roughly worth eight. We assessed her at 775." Um, >> well, we have to get comparables, >> right? But with all the comparables,
that's where we're we're good. Now, we haven't been inside. Yeah. >> So, >> you can't have an abatement. and they say, "Well, the inside is horrible." Well, okay, but you didn't let us in. >> Okay. >> So, we're going to deny the abatement, right? >> Yeah.
>> So, we deny it. Now, they can't appeal it because they didn't let us in. >> Right. >> Now, let's look at a different one. Uh same house and we've got it assessed at a million and they don't let us in. And we look at it and we say, you know, even though they didn't let us in, this is
too high. And we might give another. So, it's not an automatic denial. The only difference is they can't appeal. >> Correct. Correct. >> But in any case, in no possible way can we force our way in.
>> No, we never have. >> Well, yes. This practice is forcing our way in. >> Well, it's not forcing. It's a Right. I know what you're saying. It's It's >> forcing. You can't have >> It's holding up a CO. >> You can't have a certificate of occupancy unless you let us in. We can't
do that. We can never do that. >> I get it. >> Okay. I know. I know you're not real comfortable. I understand that and I'm not trying to >> No, I I >> But I what you're saying I >> Okay. Absolutely.
>> Let me make a motion. You might not be comfortable with it, but Okay. >> Um Mr. Chairman, I move that the Norton Board of Assessor advise the Norton Building Commissioner that we will no longer require participation in the building permit process. specifically the application for certificate of
occupancy and that our name be removed from said application form. >> Second. >> Okay, there it is. Can you read it? >> That's the only motion I'll make just to make you feel better. Okay. >> All right. Is there a you second? Okay.
Um, all those in favor I Okay. I'm um I'm not going to vote no. I'm going to abstain cuz that's fine. >> I would just like to get more information. >> I understand. >> Um but I'm certainly not um opposed to this at all. >> You're going to vote your conscience.
>> Right. I'm, you know, more information, but um Yep. Yep. I'm >> and my only reason for pushing to get that done tonight is because it's illegal, not for any other reason. >> I know we got to sign that um we sign off that motion and because
>> Yeah. Well, >> well, at least >> we moved it. >> We voted it. We should at least >> Let's just sign it. >> Yeah. Well, right on there voted. It just put the votes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And Well, actually, what I want to do is get a signature, too. Just
>> That's fine. That's fine. Um, and a date. Um, no, I understand. I guess here's a question for you guys. So, the other departments that are
listed and the reason they're listed, what would you say? Are they more for safety? Um, >> a lot of those departments we have permits for when we build them, you know, like I, >> you know, so a lot of those departments have to do a final inspection to make
sure that they comply with the with the >> I I would say that some of those signatures are not legal. >> However, however, those are separate entities. We only ruled this little tiny. >> Well, this seems more of a monetary
than than I mean fire department building. I mean that's safety. That's >> Well, no, no, no. I guess what I'm saying is building inspector makes his inspection. >> Correct. Um, one I will say is definitely legal is health
>> because in granting an occupancy permit, he has to be certain that the health code has been followed. >> Yeah. >> So, he wants them to sign and that that makes sense. The same as the plumbing inspector, the electrical inspector would sign because the building
inspector. So, um, conservation is probably not legal because the building still meets everything. And in a perfectly legal world, he would give the certificate of occupancy. They would move in and conservation would
have to take him to court. They couldn't stop it. But that's the way we do it. It's probably not legal, but >> that's the one thing is um, you know, I just built a home in Foxboro. I built one in Bristol Island. So, I built Milton. Well, is the only town I've had
to go through that requires a assessor inspection for the CO and >> I guess the the other part that's immaterial to the legality is >> we got nothing to inspect. We're not saying yes or no on anything. >> And the other thing is too with the other towns um even Norton when I when
we do go for the CO the only one we see in there is the inspector at the fire department does the smokes and the build department but you know I don't see the planning board. We don't see the all the other departments are, you know, conservation. We just finished a build in Norton and we saw the assessor and we
saw the build inspector and the fire chief. That's it. And and then there's a bunch of signatures, but they just go around the town all their own. >> They do it on their own. They don't make you go chase them. You're right. >> Well, they just do it quick and nobody goes to the house. So, >> well, the real estate agent kind of coordinates a lot of it, doesn't
>> No. What I'm saying about the the smokes? >> No, they don't do anything. >> Not on a new house. So when we're done with a home, we just we just uh request the CO, but we got to get all the sign offs before the buildings department will issue it. So, and most towns just you walk around, they sign them, and
you're done. So, some do it online. But >> Nolton's the only one that requires the assessor to come in and actually look, which >> Well, >> but >> all right. That's >> And that's the reason no one else does it, cuz you can't do it. >> Yeah. It doesn't make sense. It's illegal.
Um, no. I I think that's worthy to uh to look into. That's why I think, you know, pass it and >> Yep. >> can always if something change. >> At the same time, I can tell you don't fully understand it and I wouldn't expect you to vote yes on something you don't fully understand.
>> Right. >> Well, I understand where you guys come from. 100%. Well, not 100, but I just had questions how it ever evolved to this, >> you know. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that's all. >> Yeah. I I don't know. And I've tried not
to worry myself with how it evolved. >> You started to, but we can't do that. >> Well, all right. What you say? >> I don't know what it was. >> All right. Um, pretty good. Anything else, Jim? Oh,
shoot. Business and policies. >> All right. Okay. So, okay. All right. So, yeah. And we'll keep these kind of broad because I think we need to continue them and these are going to need input and discussion.
Um, so, yep. Okay. So, the second one, and I've actually already started on it somewhat, but I don't have all the answers. Um, I talked to um Can I just
um Yep. How do we want to um identify or call this this uh uh action? You want to call it the uh >> Well, it's just that that's the motion. It's written down. I just read it. So, >> we just put that motion into the minutes
and we passed it and >> Okay. >> It'll be up to the staff to talk to the building inspector and >> remove the assessor from the seal. >> Right. Done. >> Excellent. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All right. Sorry, Jim.
>> Yeah. No, not a problem. So, the second one involves um and I can't remember which. We got to do a little bit of research, but we passed a town meeting quite a while ago. Um,
in other words, we appraise every year as of January 1st. >> Okay. >> Right. Every property. And >> well, we didn't say every property. We don't appraise every property, >> but we have to put a number on every property even though we don't actually
The state says what is it? Every 10 years we have to put put eyes on it. >> Right. >> Oh, no. That's different. the cycles every five every 10 >> the cycles the cycles every five and then every 10 we have to say we put eyes on it correct >> so but anyways January every January we
put a number >> and luckily if we didn't have software I don't know how we would do it >> right >> um yeah absolutely >> you know that software is really needed good thing we have it so quite a few years back and I I got to find out which
town meeting and exactly which provision of the law we adopted a provision of the state law that allows us in the middle of the year to reappraise and this is usually things that are under construction. So at the beginning of the year, January 1st, there's a
piece of land there. >> It's worth X. >> Yep. >> Um July, you get some sticks up. >> There's a half a building. >> Now we can go in and say, "Well, it's worth more now." And and we do >> and and that's okay. But um and you were
might remember you and I talked about this two years ago when you went to pull your papers. Here I am. So it's my thought, >> yeah, >> that we are spending an awful lot of
money in labor chasing pennies and that it costs us more to get these pennies. In other words, the old saying is a dime chasing a dollar chasing a dime. >> So, you're saying um you don't see the
full value going at a partial construction. >> Let's say you've got a beer lot >> at $200,000, >> right? >> Um and let me just use a calculator because I can't do it in my head and I don't know what the tax rate is. Let's just say for sake of
>> 1384. >> All right. 14. I was going to say. So, so $200,000. Oh, wait. It's per thousand, right? So, 200 >> * 14 >> is 2,800 bucks. >> Yep. >> Okay. Now, let's say halfway through the
year it's worth 250 cuz they got part of a building up. So, now we're at 3500. >> Yep. change of $700 for half a year.
We just got ourselves 350 bucks. How much effort did we expend to get the 350 bucks? I don't think we're making money on this. Well, um, my first reaction, knee, knee-jerk reaction, >> y
>> go drive down Pine Street >> and see the Pulse development where there's, I don't know, 40 homes in two different division. >> 44, >> pardon me. >> Thank you, Peter. >> Thank you, Peter. Um, those can be all done at the same time.
Carnage scale, right? So 350 times the number. >> True. But we >> that's that's all you know, but we're going out there and making physical inspections all these houses. >> But how long does it take to do 24 homes?
>> But those 40 at the same time cuz they're building one or two at a time. Yeah. So that's >> Well, yes and no. If you go, you see how how it works. I mean, you guys know it um better than probably most people, almost anybody. Well, we've got our in-house cost of producing all the
paperwork. We've got mileage expense. We've got labor expense. >> Well, what do you mean mileage expense? >> We pay we pay our assessor mileage to go out there, right? >> Yeah. >> So, we got mileage expense. We've got payroll expense. And in the end, >> I think it's 72 cents a mile.
>> But in the end, >> we're going to end up getting 350 bucks. Well, if you add it up, how many constructions are in process? What about commercial? >> Ah, no, that's See, that's where So, that's what I'm getting at. >> And the other the other thing I like to
make a point I make make on this is how do you appraise a building that's not complete? That's I think that's difficult as well. If you got >> that I agree with. >> If you got four four walls up and no roof, >> how is how are you assessing that? >> That I agree. I agree with you. We got another issue.
>> Yeah. >> That somehow we got to address. >> You can't just go out there inspect them. You got to make an appointment and ask permission each time. You can't go in that building. >> Yeah. >> You cannot go in without permission.
>> But that's their job. >> No, no, no, >> no. To make the appointment to >> But they don't make the appointments. They go in without making an appointment. I've >> seen that firstand >> they go in without without permission. So, >> I mean, that's more >> I'm going to get to the good. It's not
all bad. >> That That's But to me, that's more of an administrative >> discussion than than you know the $350. I Go ahead. Just finish. >> So, what what I'm looking at and and I
have talked to the town manager about it because another thing, you know, on the horizon is we're going to have to cut our budget next year. We can't just keep going on spending money. The town's in a fiscal
crisis and we going to have to kick in. I'm not sure how much, but we've got to think towards that. So my my thought is we we have adopted that law. So we got to follow it, right? We're not trying to get out of it in any way, but we need to
do it in a way that is efficient. Um, so you said, "What about commercial?" And that's a good one. So now we got a different situation. Now you've got a lot that might be worth, say, $800,000
and they're going to build a $60 million warehouse on it and halfway through the year there's $30 million of value there. Yeah, we want that money. Um because uh let's do that pretty quick.
Turn sideways for that one. So $30 million um in 6 months. Wait a minute. Is going to give us $210,000. Do we do the paperwork for $210,000?
>> Mhm. Yeah, we do the paperwork for $210,000. So that I guess is what I'm saying. And I'm starting broad and I'll get specific, but to do the paperwork for 350 bucks doesn't make any sense. >> Well, where 210,000 it does.
>> Well, that's an opinion that you're I mean I I know what you're saying. What's the implied cost versus the actual cost? >> Correct. >> Okay. So, I understand that. However, the premise is to the premise of the
practice is to do what we're doing. So, >> no, I but listen, please. >> Yeah. >> So, the premise is what we're doing. We're revenue recognition in a way, right? We're always trying to get the
best assessment value and be on top of the properties as well, right? We want to know do we want to just wait for residential properties till we get the uh the certificate of uh occupation.
I to be honest I think we do. I think I think what what happens like I said 350 bucks and the money we have to spend to get the 350 it doesn't make any sense to me for the town to spend $350
to extract it from somebody. But do we know I mean in a way you're saying that is the office overburdened with work? >> I don't think so. >> Okay, let's say we cut one staff
position. Would it be over? >> Why would you cut Why would you do that? You need someone in the office. You need a field person and you need a director. There's only three people in the whole office. You need people coming in. I believe it can be done with two. We've had this discussion before.
>> I I disagree. >> No, I understand that. >> But let me give you something real quick. >> Well, my thought is when people pay their taxes, they want to see somebody patching potholes. They want to see somebody teaching their kids. They want to see somebody putting out fires and keeping the town safe. >> But
>> they don't really want to pay us, >> but they want an answer when they're paying their real estate tax. They want >> I think we can give them and they want a face. >> I think we can do things more efficiently. And I think one of the other things with the partial builds too is say, you know, like we said, how do
you value that? And then let's say the town comes in and says, well, that $200,000 lot's got a partial building on it and now it's worth 500. >> So, how do you how do you contest that valuation? >> I I I'm going >> You can't contest that valuation at the appellet.
>> What you're saying I'm I'm >> You can't contest that valuation, though. >> What you're you're you're saying. So I just did the real number 350 >> times 86 properties residential. >> We don't have 86 properties. >> We had in the past >> in a year.
>> Yep. >> So that's 30,100. That that itself >> pays pays someone's salary. >> Whose salary is making 30? Who's making >> No, no, wait. Pays part of their >> Okay. I was going to say I hope we don't have anybody working for that.
>> No, but pays part of that. No, that's legitimate. >> Absolutely. But to your point, you you're right. I think it's difficult to >> Well, it's I don't think it's fair to not only the builder, but the owner of that whether it's somebody has a home.
Like if I was say, well, you know, the assessor says, "Well, that home's worth a half a million." Well, it's it's only half built. How's it worth half a million? I have no outlet to fight that valuation. It's at the discretion of the assessor, and I disagree with >> But there's got to be So, these are all
good good talking points. Good. You know, um, your point is Yeah. How do you >> I dealt with it, so I understand battle with this. You know, >> yours are my you know, I >> Well, one of I just gave you 30,000. That's that's coming in the door. So,
>> all well and good, but got to remember something. >> But I want to >> I am a big supporter and a big believer of Proposition 2 and a half. >> So, I think most of people are in this town. >> Okay. So, I'm not a big fan. I mean legitimately we don't want we don't want to leave
money out there but I am not a fan of getting every dime. >> But you said not even 10 minutes ago >> that our budget we're running lean. Um we have to run lean. >> I think we can.
>> So we just identified $30,000 roughly. Why would we leave that on the table? Okay. And this is just for discussion. What would our savings be if we eliminated a whole position?
>> I don't know. But I I think that >> 125 to 150. >> Oh, no. No, not not even >> I think the assessor is making about 180 170 to 180. And I'm not sure what her staffers are making. >> I'm pretty sure that's what the director's making.
>> She would love to make that. Yeah, I don't think that could be >> I'll look at the book. >> I I'll look, but um >> I think the staff >> Let's put it this way. It's closer >> to a little over 100. >> Okay. >> Okay. That's it. And then you get, you know, the insurance, the overhead, and
all that, but >> So, you're going to >> But where's the value to me? >> Okay. So, I'm not saying to here's my >> I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. >> No, you >> I'm understanding it. >> No, you're not. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Can I just >> You were You were discussing this as if
I were proposing to eliminate interim evaluations. >> No, not at all. Okay. Go ahead. >> Okay. Cuz you can't get that money that way. >> Okay. >> No, >> anything that's under controlled construction, we can get the information from the
building inspector. >> Okay. So any project that's con controlled construction, we have paperwork saying exactly where >> it's an open permit. >> Yeah, you can. >> No, no, no. It's not an open permit. This controlled construction, the
building inspector is not the inspector in that case and controlled construction. >> These are projects that are too big for the building inspector. >> When you build a $60 million warehouse, >> Yeah. you have a GC. No construction,
>> you have an architect. The architect is the inspector. >> The architect comes in and he fills out affidavits. >> Yeah. >> Saying that this is completed and it's all correct. The building inspector goes out there and he looks at it, >> but he's not taking on that
responsibility. So, it's a let's just say $60 million building and um the architect has already spent say $45 million or and it's made met all these points. He signs off. It's gone to this point. Is that
how the process works? >> Um it's not so much a dollar amount that he's signing for. He is literally the building inspector. So is he signing off the scope of work and that and he is saying this much work has been done
>> and it's been done correctly and he puts his name on it. The building inspector then says thank you Mr. Architect. I don't want to be responsible for that. I'm glad I'm not and he puts that paper in the file. >> So is this um and what about >> so a smaller project the building
inspector would come out and say you pass a fail. So the architect is driving the project. Correct. >> What about the PE? >> What is the P? >> Professional engineer. No architect.
>> So not every architect can handle construction control. >> Correct. That's >> But you know a lot of them are licensed construction. >> Any building that contains more than 35,000 cubic feet of volume Yeah. >> is required to have construction control. >> Okay. That's the state law.
>> Okay. >> So, it's not like it's optional. You're building a big building. It's controlled construction. >> I was surprised the architect can drive that. I would think there's got to be some back. >> So, my architect does construction control and on the bigger projects and then, you know, sometimes, you know, we
have to bring in the structural engineer if there's a structural issue and the structural engineer can sign off. >> Right. But he works for the architect. >> Yeah. He works for the architect. >> Right. And the building inspector is at the bottom of that barrel because if I had an issue with the build inspector, I want I want something done >> and we don't agree with the code. We don't agree with what the build
inspector is asking. We can always go to the engineer and override the build inspectors. Right. >> The reason I asked about PE, I'm a little bit I'm not as versed as you guys, but I've been involved. >> Well, from our point of view, >> we can go to the building inspector and
we don't even have to go there. We have permit ice. >> No, actually we don't. What do we use now? >> Clear boy. Um, >> what they use? >> Clear view. Clear view. >> No, it's it's >> viewpoint. Viewoint. >> But we have software. >> Yeah. >> We can sit here and we can go in there
and we can say, okay, we could even do it. >> I don't know about monthly. I don't know when, but whatever interval we go in there and we say, okay, we got these projects that are under construction and this one, we've got affidavits for this, this, this, this, and this. Okay, we've
got the plans. Um, that's worth this much and we're we're done. >> It should be a fairly easy process, you know. >> Yeah. >> Also, controlled construction. >> Y >> for us to go out there for what reason?
>> What possible reason would we go out there? We have no idea what we're even looking at. Do you think it'd be >> also liability? That's >> when you're on a commercial project like that and you just random any project randomly walking onto the job site without
>> So let me So going back and would the commercial um people involved in wouldn't they be I mean why are we to me it's almost like
because their value is more to the now. >> Mhm. >> Right. >> Mhm. >> We're going after them. Or I don't want to use the word going after them. >> I think a better term is to say lowhanging fruit. >> Yeah. But >> we're not going after anyone. >> No, but that's right. No, that's my
whole point. You have to treat everybody the same. >> We are. >> How? >> We're not going out at all in the middle. We're relying on paperwork. >> I agree 100%. Again, I've dealt with this. You know, I've had >> it needs more study. I'm not This isn't
>> I I I've had, you know, it's I've had assessors show up in the middle of our job. What are they doing? >> You know, >> that's a little bit different. That that needs to like stop right away. >> You need to have permission. >> Got to have you. >> No, I I And that's just to me
>> and I can't I can't picture a builder that would ever give permission. >> Look at a construction site. I want to come on your site. Absolutely not. Well, usually it goes up to the next chain of command. >> What's that? >> No. Meaning a a building person that's
running a project and an assessor wants to come on board or someone. I mean, they're not going to come out of that. >> Correct. >> So, what we've been doing is just going out, walking in. We got to stop it. >> Well, they may not. They probably won't.
I don't want to say wrong, but I but to me again and I'll just say this, you're bringing up good points, but >> it's a topic for future discussion. I'm not trying to get >> right. Right. I mean my first I mean to go
all these recommendations of what you're saying and and the actual practice and what happens makes sense but I just you to me $30,000 is $30,000 and more importantly it's the
um um just the appear I mean doing our Oh, residential, commercial. I mean, we just got to I I can I think it's definitely worth more discussion. Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> And and there may be other things in between this. I mean, it needs more I
got to learn more about it. >> Me, too. Me, too. I don't know everything about it. I'm just I'm saying it's something we should look into. >> Yeah. >> And and maybe move in a direction that makes us more efficient. >> Yep. >> Um >> but I think you're right that, you know, the budget is going to be tight. um the
town budget obviously um >> and let's plan on doing our part, >> right? Maybe the things there might be things we can't do. That's okay too, >> right? >> You know, >> but to me, I I I think our our role is to uh I could pull it out here and give you
word by word. >> Oh, I Yeah, I've read it. Our role is to accurately assess >> correct >> to the best we can, right? I mean, no, and we already talked about it. We don't assess every property. >> We let the software do it. >> Right.
>> So, right, >> we don't chase every nickel and we shouldn't. >> Right. >> I mean, and in in the real practical world, um >> I mean the simple question, the simple question, >> I would move the process sideways.
>> Well, the simple question I would ask any voter, >> y >> do you want us to extract every nickel from you or not? Well, you know, I would turn them around and say, you know,
>> that's who elected us. Ask the people who elected, do you want us to extract every nickel from you or not? >> Well, that's why I'm sitting here. >> That's why I'm here. But anyways, let's we can move on. All
right. No intention of putting you under pressure or anything. I know you're feeling it and I'm >> not feeling it, but I like uh No, I appreciate I appreciate you looking at it. All right. Anything else? >> Yes. So, um yeah, let's do this one next. And
actually, it was brought up the most recent email from Denise. >> Okay. She said at the end of the email that we might have to look at how we appraise accessory buildings >> uh ADUs.
>> No, no accessory buildings, garages, whatever. >> Oh. Oh, yes. Correct. Right. >> Um this was an email property two days ago. Yep. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes, it was. Yes. Okay. >> Um I'm just going to talk about that
last sentence. The rest of the email is for another discussion. executive session. >> Correct. >> But just at the end, she said that we it had raised some issues for her and that we should look at how we're doing it. >> Yep. >> And I think that's something we should moving forward. We we got to look at
that. And I'll tell you why. Um from personal experience, um back in 1997, I built a house on Pine Street and I built a gorgeous accessory building out front.
um for me I wanted it and I can't remember what it was valued at. That's not the point. When we sold that house, we would have got the same money if that accessory building wasn't there. It
didn't change the value any because the house was worth $900,000 at the time. It's worth a lot more than that. >> Yeah. But the accessory building didn't make it worth a million. It didn't add it added hardly anything
>> because of it was detached. >> Well, because an accessory building doesn't really add >> much value. Um, now to prove that point, we have moved I don't know how many times since then.
Six, seven times. Now, I want a nice, beautiful garage to work in. in the worst way with lifts, with heat, with air conditioning. I want a nice garage. I haven't built one since. You know why? Because I know I'm going to be
moving from house to house, and I know I can't be paid for it, and I won't build it and give it away for free. You follow what I'm saying? >> I am. >> So, at the same time, >> this is all in Newton. >> Yeah. Moving.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. I mean, I could easily just build another big garage with every house. But basically, every time I build a house >> I was just going to say that rhetorically, >> right? But every time I build a house, I build a nice garage for me and everything and that's nice and I sell the house and I don't get paid for the garage. >> Yeah. >> So, I've done without the garage because
of that cuz you can't get paid for it. >> Well, if you can't get paid for it, it shouldn't reflect in the assessment. Granted, it shouldn't be zero. Don't don't don't hear me wrong. But let's say we look at a house and we've got the
house valued at 800,000. >> Mhm. >> And we've got an accessory building and we value the accessory building at 250,000. >> Yep. >> That's a million150, right? >> It's about what it cost to build it. >> Correct. But when you sell that house, >> you're not going to get
>> you're going to get 850. >> Correct. Well, a little. Yeah. >> You're not going to. >> So that's the real value of that building. >> Correct. Not much. >> And I've got a sneaking suspicion that we've
got buildings all over town and that the assessments are all over the place. There's no rhyme, no reason. So, I think it's something we should look at. >> Yeah. >> And and maybe um
I would think it'd be a good idea. Maybe invite if they're willing to come, invite a couple of real estate appraisers. not town appraisers, but like regular real estate to come in and talk to us. Maybe we can learn something. >> I've had a deep discussion with a real
estate, not agents, >> not agents. No, not agents. >> I've had a deep discussion with a real estate appraiser about this exact situation. And you know, and 100% I agree with Jim. You know, you're not getting the value. It doesn't matter what it cost you to build it. It's what
the value is worth when you sold the property. You're not going to get that value. Just to add to it, these are But why do you think that this is not to go a little bit off the track, but why >> from what? And I've only seen a couple and looked at them and looked at the
number and said, "You've got to be kidding." And I don't know if we're looking at it accurately. I think we're looking at it saying, "Boy, that's what that building cost. That's what we got to appraise it at." Yeah. >> Not realizing that some people >> The reason I The reason I'm backing off
just for >> I'm not saying anything nefarious is going on >> installed um a 1860 farmhouse on um had uh we vacated the oil. We put in
ducted and duckless >> um ebooks >> and um I did you know jal all that it works not only in theory but and I I was a little worried I you know came from Minnesota the owner came from here
so he understood the cold and he was uh very you know pro efficiency and green and he had attached to that home the home was only I'm going to say 2200 ft² 2100 living the barn that was finished
>> or workshop at a modin heater you know in your mind you think of that right prime time group that value of that home was actually so more almost of the house the value so can move but when somebody
buys it that money is not there but the buyer sold it the buyer wanted that. >> It's a specific buyer in all. >> Correct. That's what I mean. Right. That's what I mean. So, what I'm saying is you've got a building. Say that building's worth $300,000.
>> Right. >> When he sells it, he's going to get 50. That's all it's worth. >> But, okay. I get But the We got to You got to sell it to the right people. >> No. No. You got to sell it to any people. That's what an appraisal is. Any
people. So if you go to if you go to >> Okay, wait. Let me add one more thing. You know that right person? >> Yeah. >> He ain't paying for it. He's not paying for it. He wants it, but he won't pay for it. >> Well, who pay for it? >> No, he won't. I'm that guy and I won't
pay for it. >> Well, okay. >> Like an swimming pool. >> But no, I that's absolutely >> same thing. But anyways, the other thing is we're not talking about bringing more or less money into the town in this situation, >> right?
>> Because we take the total assessment based. >> I'm just saying let's make it fair. >> Yeah. I mean, I think >> you know the big thing the big thing I'd like to see the big thing I'd like to see is to adopt policies so that and I don't know if it's in a perfect world we
could appraise everything. Everybody's happy and we don't get a single abatement request. Wouldn't that be nice? >> That would be that would be ideal >> without costing the town a dime. >> So, if you look at some of these also, I want to make a point. If you if you look at some of these garages, you know, again, I'm pretty well experienced in
this, some of them are valued at $40 a square foot, even less. Some of them are valued at 180 plus a square foot. Correct. >> So, when you know, when we've had these discussions, when I've had these discussions in the past, I I've been told, well, that's live. You can live in that. Correct. Well, you can't, you
know, because the town is not going to allow you to live in it. It's not a it's not a declared in-law. It's a an accessory building. You can't live in an accessory building, even though it's nice and it's finished. So, you can't have such a large discrepancy in square foot price
>> when you say, you know, it's not someone that's renting out their accessory building, you know, as a in-law. >> Well, it has to say it's a illegal in-law, right? Well, to Denise's point, >> well, her point is legal enough,
>> but it needs to be >> re visited to see your point is is >> just because just because it's nice and finished doesn't mean and and I think we need to maybe have a good
discussion cuz we need to learn too. I'm not >> not throwing any stones here, but you got a building, you got an illegal apartment. That building's worth a good amount of money. >> Except it's not cuz when you sell it, you can't say there's an apartment in
there and the game is up. >> So, but anyways, so that was that one. Accessory building. I think like to see that move forward. >> Okay. >> And then the third and last one, I'll make it kind of short. And I just like to see the three of them move forward
from meeting to meeting >> so we can maybe get somewhere. >> Y >> um this last one, not the last subject, but the last meeting we were talking about a particular building and things happened that weren't accurate.
Um and I think we could do a lot better. Not saying I'm not saying and I said at the last meeting, not picking on anybody, but I think we could do a lot better by conversing more with the building inspector. I think we can get a lot further. So,
I'd like to see that on there. Um, our procedures that way. In other words, um, building's finished. We go to the building inspector and say, "Okay, this is finished." Um, did did they build it according to the plans? Yeah, they did. Oh, okay. Thank you. That's good to
know. Okay. And I don't understand this part of the plan. Oh, that's that. Oh, okay. Thank you. Um, now if we could go in, that's fine. But we we don't always get to do that. Um, we're going to go out and measure this, right? >> Um, the asbuilt plan.
>> You want to eliminate assumptions. >> Well, we're going to have to make some no matter what cuz we can't go in. >> Eliminate it as many as we do. >> Yeah. just to make it um just a better process and at the same time a more efficient process where we're learning a
lot by talking to the building inspector. I I think we can >> I think though we'll find maybe I'm wrong but their process and the board's process could be different are not complimenting
each other. >> Okay. >> Do you know what I mean >> in a way? But >> do you agree? >> No. Only because this one particular example, and you know which one I'm talking about. >> Okay. >> Okay. I'll just say the name Todd. >> Yeah.
>> Are we there? Okay. Um, some of that wasn't interpreted correctly. >> Correct. >> A conversation with the building inspector would have >> we weren't able to get inside. >> It was an assumption that >> but we could have a discussion with the building inspector. assessing department
had to make >> in a conversation with the building inspector. We would have got it right. >> Well, >> we would have got it right. See, what's going on here? Is this >> But the process that was done wasn't wrong. >> I'm not saying that. I'm saying we can do better. I'm not saying we're bad. I'm
saying we can do better. In other words, you look at what happened. We made an assumption. >> Yeah. More eyes on it. Okay. >> More information. >> So, you go you go over the building inspector and say, "Look, I'm drawing up the property card. This is what I see." Mhm. >> Is that right? And the building inspector says, "No, no, no. I was
there. That's not h that's not the way it is." >> Right. >> That's all. >> But I think we can get a lot better by cooperating. >> But then again, um the assessing department will supersede. >> You know, the building absolutely
important. >> In other words, we've got the assumption. We talked to the building inspector. He says, "No, no, no. That inspection's that that assumption. That's all. That's all. >> I agree." Yep. Just a little better of cooperation. Yep. >> And >> again, these are just
>> on stick with the Todd discussion, right? >> Okay. If the assessing department in that situation did go to the building inspector and said, "Hey, well, we weren't allowed access, but we we think there's a room upstairs. That's not They could have corrected the record." The
building inspector could have fixed that. There wouldn't have been an error to begin with. He could have said >> he was there. >> He was there. >> In other words, we could say, "Look, this is what we think." And he could say, "No, no, no, no, no. That's not the way it is. This is the And he would have straightened it out >> and there would have been no error and we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. >> All right. Well, um yeah, I just want to
make sure that and I agree. Um having other sets of eyes and experience that makes sense. >> Getting better doesn't mean we were wrong. >> You you know what I mean? That's >> Do you ever hear Kaizen? >> No.
>> Okay. So that's um the Japanese it's called continuous improvement and manufacturer back in the 80s90s that's why they were so um quick to go into high technology. >> Mhm. >> Continuous improvement.
>> Mhm. >> Always looking. So >> correct. Let's just keep trying to do better. That's all. >> Yep. All right. Great. >> Okay. So anything else? >> That's all I had. >> All right. Well, thank you. Thank you, Chair. Uh Lucas. No, that's it. You good? >> Yeah. Yeah. All right.
>> We can discuss this, you know, move forward. We'll get a little more information. >> Yeah. No, those good. >> Um I need the Just need the agenda so I can make the motion. >> Oh, the the bottom. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Right. Yep. >> Uh Mr. Chairman, I move that we go into
ex executive session for the purpose of discussing um a project that follows exemption seven of the exe executive session requirements general laws chapter 59 section 59 applications not open to the
public. Um >> is there a second >> that we will that we will not come back to open session after we conclude. >> Thank you. Is there a second? Second. All right. All those in favor?