all right six o'clock we'll call the meeting to order we'll start pledge of aliance I pledge allegiance to the flag from the United States of America and to the repu stands one nation indivisible andice incident I literally stand like all right it's okay yeah it happens that's no announcement right so um the meeting is being reported by nort media Norton Public Schools so hi when any reporting um vote to approve I just said hi G said nobody else is really said hi to Peter um so vote to approve the minutes of March first joint meeting does anybody have any questions or comments on that minutes nope is there a motion to approve March 21st 24 minutes so is there second second all in favor and then um April 11th open session meeting minutes everyone have a chance to look at that anything on that there a motion to approve April 11th second all those in favor that was quick I guess now I'm up warrants I reviewed and approved the following School expense warrants April 11th 2024 76529 77 and school payroll warrants April 4th 2024 1,729 584 I wasent them public record all right vote to approve transation bid see you're out all right so um we are Rec um based on the memo that um we have given you we are member um in award for our invitation to FID that we had for our school transportation that was released on March 20th um we had a previous conference on March 27th where we only had one vendor um come which was each alom um the deadline for the bids return the bids was um this Monday April 22nd at 11: a.m. um even though we had six um vendors return bids only one was submitted and and um two people at the bid opening which was um Matt W from H and Steve how you pronounce his last name um and the the only bid was a fiveyear contract for 7,1 189,190 the two tiered system TI two buses and TI three in the first um it's a 5 point2 increase over our tier two bus and a 4.67 increase over tier three um in combined with our athletic buses and our late bus the total increase is around 4.8% for um fy2 um so we are recommending that you award so on this I know we're looking at school start times and all that is Bloom aware that we could make changes to the roots that's okay with them within the contract or would we have to redo it when that comes you don't have to redo it but in the bid specifications we made sure that that the k36 was discussed um that we could change the tiered system so um I have them for you if you want to take a peek at them but the um we asked for they did a tier four they give us prices for that too so they give us comparative data what we have currently but they gave us options so they know that that is being discussed and it's right anything else and then hypothetically if we were to cut all the way down and there would be no Middle School busing what happens with the contract um you can only cut 25% of a contract okay um that's just Master a lock or anything so um that's why the number of buses that we've discussed at one point was important so as long as we don't go below which it comes out we have an odd number it would be 3.7 you know what I mean so um as long as you don't go below that then you stay within the contract one got it and we would have to B we would have to bring some buses to the middle school because um the requirements for mandated buses to sixth grade so there would still be buses coming here correct um and then two more questions yeah can you kind of Define just so over there what is a return bid and a submitted bid what does that kind of mean because you said six companies returned um so they returned reest requested the bid so they asked for bid specifications so you have to report how many people asked for the bid specs um which is good so they wanted to see what we were asking for um so we always like to repord that put that on public record and then also but then only one actually return the bid so six companies said hey we want to see what you got that's correct and then five of those companies said we want nothing to do with you they just didn't come or didn't that might it's very typical it's very typical for multiple companies to request the bids check their so yes so and um you know typically you only get one back do we know how like in general how many carriers are there there only I can only think of like well it's interesting too because the ones that asked other than agent Bloom were not one of the ones that were around us so they're trying to make their way and then that's it is the idea that this is a competitive process it's complete sh yeah this um and then can you like what is so when it says the first year is a 5.21% increase over tier two and a 4.67 over tier three kind of what are those tiers in relation to I guess sure so we have um five buses at tier two which means they only go to two schools two routes and tier three is they do uh three runs three routes so um it would be high school lgn then it would be hey middle then JCS that a three tier bus Which 10 buses do that and then the other five do only two so that's why we only have the two and three at one time I believe years ago you had four TI and then we red it yeah I think we reduced it combinely yes but I can provide you with the form where actually shows the breakout of um in the increase of a year two so it ranges the from 4.6 uh year 2 to to 5.5 then back 5.26 back to five um and based off of just um us asking around doing some research with colleagues they came in a very reasonable price at um just under five yeah other communities saw things around 78 9% increases so we were really happy this bid from each of them and um they were happy to have that fiveyear contract as well so that something that I think helps on both and then million a lot of money though for busing also I think that is a lot of money read a newspaper and know that we don't have a ton of money right now so I'm sure so when we pay this it's 7.1 million over five years so we pay 1.4 million yeah $1.4 million for the next five years yes it's not an equal spread but yes okay now hypothetically not that this probably going to happen but if we got $2 million next year that we could put toward busing would that could we pay down like Advanced pay Advanced pay yes yeah I don't know why it would well because you could then save if you had if we had additional do let's just hypothetically say next year we're working in a surplus of $600,000 could we take $600,000 and give it to bloom and then that would reduce our cost moving forward I don't no you can renegotiate the like say they did well with the first two years with us because of our situation I'm assuming um but if our 5% we wanted sooner or we had more money here we can change we can work with them and see if there were opting to change the percentages throughout the course of the five years of the increases as long as the bottom line stays at same and we also can't prepay for services okay um with as part of the the whole school Finance component anything that we pay has to occur within that fiscal year so um there's one thing we can prepay we can prepay something tuition sometimes tuition um in certain cases but typically you have to the services have to be rendered during that FIS schal year and this starts July one and then from the so we have a for next year so fiscal year 25 we have a $1.4 million bus fee that the district is paying how much do we make in user fees around 130 Liberty so we the district is paying basically $1.3 million in busing that's with no user fees sorry that's with user fees involved so with all under that yes so we're looking at $1.3 million it's a massive cost correct that that has nothing to do with actually charging got good any other questions no we have a motion to approve the transportation did as written we really have a choice that's why I'm like so it okay so move is there a second second all those in favor all right vote on Elementary Ela program adoption than hi hi thank you for the uh nice discussion over the last couple of meetings about the program um as we kind of to bring us back to this point in time we've had multiple rounds of negotiation with hmh we've been really fortunate to have a flexible partner we've been able to you know deduct uh just about $150,000 in the total asking price um over a 5year period so um if to recall from last meeting the committee believe was looking for the five-year adoption plan and the cost um as kind of the the target for us so the target number uh all in with everything is $2,273 69 hmh is willing to pay allow us to pay that over a three-year period so they would be looking for a 34% um payment in year one that is 68,9 $5 for year two and year three each would comprise 33% of the total ask the year two and year three cost would be $ 66,9 31 and just going back to my question before we have this money because we won't be paying what we currently have and then we had some money budgeted for it yes and we have some we have some offsets so what this will allow us to do is some consumables that we get for instance for foundations we will we will not order those so the cost avoidance to the district will be about 30,000 okay I just want to make sure we're not you know Finding money right so I just want to be transparent as to how we're paying for this yes Brian could jum on the yeah thank thank you just a you know I appreciate sometimes these things get a little sticky um but I appreciate everybody's questions and the discussion about this because um you know I know in just honoring the work that you know G is here tonight and the rest of the field test team but as well as the curriculum Council and all the elementary folks have done over the last year and a half it's really you know I really see this as a validation of all the time that they put in and I will say this and I'm not afraid to say it it's going to be a driver of our Improvement um across multiple metrics sooner rather than later yeah I think this is one of the more indepth curriculum conversations we' had in a while program and for a variety of different reasons because we had asked questions about how can we do better then we went out and find it and now the obviously the questions are constantly surrounding money which we were able to understand where where we're coming from with that and work with us so um you know thank you to you and and the the staff for really following through what we asked them to do does anybody have anything else this is just a logistics I think why is it a fiveyear program if we're paying it in we have the program and the licenses for five years um they would like full payment over a threeyear window and this is one of those things you can prepay have alltra Mone when we have extra money right yeah I mean thank you guys G you too for for all your work there was never a doubt that this is what needed to happen but when we brought this up at a time we're talking about budget we just needed to make sure that you know we did everything could to get the best you know pricing and all that stuff and just make sure you know the community knows that how we're paying for it you know just Optics of it so nice job you guys thank you anybody have anything else all right so do we have a motion to approve the elementary Ela program adoption is there a second second all those in favor I congratulations you guys you very much thank you all all right go do good things with those little ones we will yeah we will the team team is ready and uh they're just so excited we're going to get everything going tomor I hope this is a little bit of a good news in a time where it hasn't been a lot of good news all right so we'll move on discussion and vote on school choice okay um so I shared some information with you earlier yesterday um and I wanted to um talk about some of the district costs um of school choice and first I want to uh thank Casey Casey's here um Alex sandborn who is one of the administrative assistants what will be administrative assistance excuse me in the special education office in Christine who have spent a huge amount of time going through looking at special education services pulling out student IEPs um double cheing them against our own staff rates um and putting this information together for you um I want to start first with the fixed costs and the variable costs uh denz and I have spent lot of time talking about um what makes something variable versus what makes something fixed um and I appreciate the conversations that we've had uh so the information that you have in front of you today looks a little bit different than it did yesterday um I had you know based on you know just my thought process had included all of the teacher salary information there and what we denz and I discussed earlier today is really it would just be that teacher salary that we could potentially reduce if we did not have choice and looking at our numbers the only place that we could really actually reduce a classroom teacher maybe would be in JCS and grade three because we have 14 um SCH Choice students at that grade level um at really any other level there is not enough um information or not enough students at that grade level or um spread across classrooms that would make a significant impact to the number of classrooms there so when you take a look at variable cost costs that are you know at times dependent on student enrollment we're looking at instructional supplies we're looking at technology Hardware or software if we are providing students with a device um General General supplies within the school so for example art supplies paper all of those types of things um our curriculum and testing material so you just heard Dr akman talk about our new reading program that may have a marginal cost there um and then that one classroom teacher uh reduction Bas choice so taking a look at that we were able to kind of figure out what a per pupil cost would be um for these variable costs divided amongst our entire student enrollment so you can see those variable costs is about $153 per student when you take a look at the top of the sheet here there is these fixed costs so things that don't necessarily change based on our student enrollment um majority of our actual staff um as I mentioned previously we would still have School nurses we would still have physcal education teachers art teachers um the administrative accounts when you think about our building principles our central office administrative assistance our legal fees all of those things are um pretty much expected and fixed the uh cost to um operate and maintain our building utilities uh transportation that is our current number for FY 24 um and then professional development for our staff which in most cases is a contractual application and then when you look at networking that is um not professional networking but our networking systems for our technology um and wireless Services um so when we take a look at this number it is definitely lower than the $5,000 cost that we get per student um from choice and a lot of that obviously goes to offset some of the fixed costs that we already have in terms of the special education um breakdown as you can see um and Christine and Alex um gave you an example of of each of a student in each of our schools um and to make sure that we're protecting our students privacy we just gave you some details about the services that they require um and we talked about what the reimbursement rate is those reimbursement rates that we're receiving are in the yellow and then what the actual cost to Norton is is in the purple I think it's important for us to know note that those costs that are in purple are regardless if we have a school choice student in those groupings are not um every single one of these situations um has students that are in a small group or um in in a group with at least four three or four other students so there's a four or five students in the group um which means that in almost all cases the groups would exist with or without those school choice students so when you take a look you can see me um the first student example we're saying that you know what we what the cost quote unquote cost was versus the reimbursement we're still ahead by what $680 that number is actually not the accurate number because those costs would have been M maintained regardless if that student was in there or not you're actually getting the the reimbursement there can I just break in real quick because yeah um it it it's semantics but maybe it's not so do mind if I explain how I look at this please so the purple is actually not the cost that's that's not the correct way to look at this um the way you want to look at this is you want to actually look at it backwards so I'll take one that's in that's that comes up as a um reimburse reimbursement versus cost and negative for us the lgn student if you look at the LG student it's a group of four people the re urement right now is $3,199 The NPS teachers hourly rate is 7923 time0 hours that is a fixed cost because we will have three students in that in any case so the cost to us is not $3,565 32 per student it's that number that 79 it's the the 3565 Time 4 whatever it is like that's that's what that number is the way you want to look at this is say okay we're going to have to have that teacher in place anyways that number and the question is do we want to have it with or without the $3,199 of reimbursement so the things that look like a negative down here that's actually that's actually not correct now there's a different conversation Justin and and this is one I had with with j and that was if we have three instead of four if is is the fourth student somehow detracting from the and maybe if you want to talk about it like he basically said No in fact it's probably better to have the fourth student in there and maybe even fifth I don't know enough about how these groups work I don't know the dynamic of it do we want to talk about that I mean it really is dependent upon the group and and dynamics of the kidos that are in it the staff that are there um often times if it's like a a Counseling Group having four is is much better than having two or three because there's more voices and more opinions to be bounced off of each other if it's a more intensive speech or OT session it's actually more challenging when there's that four in there but there's often times a professional or someone else to help support that situation so we try to be cognizant of grouping students when we're doing that um and trying to make sure that it is the most um effective and appropriate setting for both staff and students to make it a session that's going to gain progress not attract from anyone so I mean it's it's four but it's kind of a ballpark as to what that would actually look like depending upon the ks that so and that's a conversation we can keep having but with respect to the finances of it this I don't know if this is represented of pretty much everything but it would seem that as long as there are not individuals who are getting one-on-one service most of them we can look at and say okay financially actually is is a is better for us to do it because so we wanted to show you different we wanted to show you different scenarios to show that it it is variable every single student if we were to sit down and do this with every single one of our our students that fall into this category you would see these numbers fluctuate in every single scenario But ultimately it's a cost positive for us because we are bringing in funds that we would not have if these students were not here and not in these groups um so similar to the conversation that we had about the classroom position um it there's really not a lot of opportunity for us to reduce staff if we didn't have the school choice component um because it's they're spaced out in a way that these groups would still happen um the majority of the time when you actually go in and you actually look at the Dynamics of the group it's almost always one choice student with three or four Norton students and it you know in other time be two Choice students with two nor students it really just depends on the particular dynamics of that grade level those service grad and everything else that comes with it um but to J as's Point those groups would be H happening whether or not we're getting the reimbursement of $3800 or not I just have oh sorry well there's just there's two things I wanted to bring up one's a question one's a comment going back to the first sheet I think it's important to note on the technology the hardware a lot of technology and Hardware opportunities all of our students have is from the school choice numers so I think that's a that's a positive conversation to have we'd be in a lot more Dire Straits if we didn't have the school choice expended appropriately towards technology um the second part and and this is just more of a question when we look at these hourly rates if and I don't know this this could be you answering Casey or Jen if we lose say a teacher that's been here 25 years and hire somebody in theory for a lower cost as a newer feature is that rate condition totally different okay the rate's totally different so when we were going through this process and see Alex were sitting down yesterday and I he and we were all sitting in the conference room together you're like okay so who is the staff person you're like oh that person's been here for 30 years the number is going to be different than this person who just started last year like so there it's constantly changing and that's why every single one of these scenarios is so different and Dan I just want to piggyback on what you talked about with the technology piece um I think it's important for people to know that all of our curriculum funds for the last several years including the upcoming projected budget all of that is funded through school choice all of our supply money comes through school choice um all of our technology comes from school choice as well we do not have any room within our regular budget for those per purchases and it's um that's something that over the years when budgets starting to get a little bit worse I know you know Joe said it for a number of years we're coming to the edge of this Cliff when we were told that we needed to cut things we moved a lot of things into school choice in order to maintain that level of service that we that we want to provide for our students and unfortunately the Well's dry the Well's dry and and you know losing that money also means your losy I mean going back probably three or four years uh you know Dr bayetta had had bloed a suggestion of tying salaries to school choice so that we would people would be driven to continue with school choice like I.E his salary could be contingent on school choice or something of that nature and we we decided that probably wasn't the best use or you know things like that because you know you don't want to get into as denz like say we don't want to pay salaries with this and unfortunately over those last few years that has happened you know there are salaries that are in school choice because we were not able to sustain them within the regular budget and that's that's the concern that I have is I know you all have as well but um I know Justine has questions too but I just wanted to uh so I just have the um enrollment oh yes I haven't gotten to that yet it bases like from November so I just want to make that I'm understanding um so you're saying the only teacher you could eliminate is from grade three because there's 13 Choice kids at the J potentially yeah right right um so I guess when I look at this though I see grade four has 15 school choice kids in grade five has 21 so why couldn't you eliminate a teacher from each of those gr so the grade four um is 15 divided among seven classrooms so it's one it's two students per classroom versus JCS only has five so it's a little bit more per per classroom it would ja I'm sorry the grade four is divided by eight um divided by eight classroom so it's one or two students per classroom so if you got the teacher the numbers would go up in the other seven classes so it's just because the yell school has a greater number of sections because of all of our fourth and fifth grades together versus JCS has X of classrooms and lgn has x amount of classrooms if JCS and lgn were a combined K to 2 K to 3 School those numbers would be different like grade three at JCS has 14 grade three at lgn has 10 that's that's a classroom that's 24 kids but because they're not together in the same building doesn't work that makes sense just it doesn't put yeah and I guess I'm just not I don't I just I feel like you're no and so I mean ultimately amongst eight class it would be one or two student so cutting you know 15 off of 200 you might have to be at 185 but isn't the easy way to look at it is if you had 100 just make it simple if you had 150 students in a grade level divided that by said okay so it's easy that's 15 kids in each class right just 15 kids I know but if hypothetical but if you had 15 kids in each class and we had 15 school choice You' be able to then cut a te go yes absolutely what you really need to do is take how many kids are in each each grade level and then divide it by how many platform you have and whatever that number is would be okay let's just we're usually around 20 in the class uh and I'll speak to my own kids my own kids are 20 and 21 first and second gr so if we have first and second grade we only have nine and five that math ain't going to work unless we're GNA add kids to you know basally take those 11 kids and sub them out and put two kids in each other classroom now you can save on a teacher it might increase class siiz right so the yeah but the Assumption you're making is that we're fine increasing class sizes so yeah you can you can do that but then by the same token I would say Well then why don't we just cut two teachers increase the class sizes even more or we c three so there's there there comes a there's there's an inflection point on on students in the classroom right we say Okay above and beyond this now we're actually deteriorating the the level of education for the Norton kids so I think probably maybe an easier way to look at this just to save time on a conversation is cut a teacher from every single grade at 68,000 divided by the 246 student students we have that's $3,317 of cost so we'll call it$ 3500 just for the sake of the argument it's not but we'll just call that so it's still $1,500 in profit on each kid sorry to call it profit but it is profit um not saying kids are business I think there's two two things we got to also remember here one this we have we have five examples that's 239 kids we don't know in terms of what are the but not all in I understand but if you just took the however many are in special ed and did this whole thing but I don't know let's say it's 60 we should see 60 of these because these five are just randomly picked whether they're picked in a favor or not who knows you know two so it's and I think a bigger piece to your thing was you thought we were being reimbursed dollar for what dollar yes clearly we're not no I was Furious about that and that was that was what drove for me that was what drove this conversation was correct I was under impression a and it was correct that being said looking at this I'm I'm much more comfortable with it because again the reimbursement in in the small groups and and you are right that we are seeing um some limited examples here and I don't know if I I don't know how much it would be to see more and this is one of the reasons I actually said I want to delay the vote I think I told you guys like we we got the original numbers which we're not correct 24 hours before the vote it's not enough time to go through this I don't think I think we need time to process it time to ask questions people may have questions they want to ask offline of of Jen and Christine um and Casey so you know but but again I think if if if I look at it and I go backwards and say okay in a gr 4 we would have you know this this teacher no matter what do we want the reimbursement or not I always always will take the reimbursement I it's not a ton of money but it's you know positive whatever it's but then I think there's another piece of this which obviously I like data and I like numbers in terms of you know what we're trying to do here especially with the budget cost but there's also a big factor of immeasurable cost here and you can never quantify it where it needs to be teacher student ratio is one you take 246 kids out that's removing in our ratio teacher student ratio is going down that's always a good thing two burnout of our teachers in terms of you know there they go from 22 kids in that classroom and if you took two or three kids out now they're down to 19 18 that's a good thing that's less especially down Mentor levels obviously from from what we just talked about four kids in a group can to three kids in a group I'm sure this situations I would say probably 80% of those times a smaller group in a in a special education classroom is probably better you know one on just do it simple if you have three kids instead of four kids in a room 25% of the the teachers attention is going to one kid hey if there's only three kids in that room because taxpayer money 33% that's better for our kids in and then last one last one Behavior we've seen this issue behaviors all across country not just nor by any means of especially on our Middle School level you know and again I'm not saying the school choice kids are the bad kids I'm just saying we're adding 21 20 and grade 7 21 we're adding 62 kids to our Middle School let's just say 10 of those kids are behaviors that's 10 more kids we're dealing with at a behavioral level that is taxing our vice principal principal Mark Rashad sat right here and said to us with the police stuff saying it's just school choice however he did say middle school has been a nightmare in terms of this year and the behavioral issues we have we're adding additional things that we will never be able to quantify and add by having a school choice program at at this size in my opinion so you're right about the if we took all these kids out the class sizes would go down and that's an immeasurable except you're forgetting the big problem with that is if we take all these kids out what's our current take from well we can't take I we don't have the financial luxury to let's say yeah let's say that we did because I think it's important because he's he's making appoint one I'm sorry for a 1.6 1.6 so 1.6 million you know at this point you know we're cutting a massive number of of positions right now so if you take that one point if we could actually take the kids out you also have to take the $1.6 million out so the teacher ratio is actually worse because we're going to now have to lay off another back of the napkin 21 teachers so it's you don't have the lecture of taking them out and keeping the money taking the M no we don't but I'm saying I'm saying that you're saying there's an immeasurable but I'm saying the immeasurable actually is is is not a negative like you think of this I think it's actually a positive because we would actually have worse numbers if we didn't have these kids and didn't the revenue plus take out the one like I said take out the 1.6 out of the budget too right take that's I'm saying take 1.6 you have to fire all the teachers at that 1.6 million pays yes so your your school your your your classroom sizes are going to go up if no yeah yes it's hard to say that though it's hard to say that because that's why taking out 20 teachers there's only 12 grades I mean it's at least a teacher from grade you have to cut yeah but you're not doing that because you're not taking all these kids up we're looking at school choice from a standpoint these kids are here these kids are here this would be a phased out approach of call it any years that's what I'm saying so yes are you taking 1.6 million out yes iess so your point is you want to out of school choice every year we vote on it if we hypothetically if we ended school choice right now 246 kids aren't leaving are we going to lose some because our our budget situation are we going to lose some of people moving on whatever and then we're not going to bring them in we're going to lose 14 kids automatically because they're out you know so that number's already down to 232 if you would if everyone stays next year we'd have 232 the following year we lose 18 more so it would be a phased out approach so now when you're looking at those numbers it's not $1.6 million this year it's $1.6 million spread out over 10 I'm just I'm not sure why you want to phase 1.6 million over time why would you want to phase out Revenue I understand that because I I want to I I what I would like to do and I'm not saying get rid of school choice and I'm a big school choice fan however in order to do it in order to make the make what Norton should be in terms of like we always say what do we want Norton to be how do we get there why are we dumping in more money and and doing a school choice aspect when we're not being reimbursed for what what we're putting in we we see it well we are though we're not why we your red numbers but the red numbers are like we're not negative you still have $2,300 exra so if you take the $23.99 subtract the 203 math $2,100 so you're telling me to educate a student in Norton is $153 no just those variabl a variable class so that has nothing to do with Staffing that has nothing to do with all of the other components that are up the top I we didn't include Athletics that we paid for we didn't include other things there it's not cor student corre so now now if you add these numbers again together and did like you said about the JCS and G take those two I'm looking seven eight 10 years down the road if we ever did combine those schools that is now another option that we are now cut we would start we would start seeing the phase process so terms what I think we would really need to do if we wanted to phase things out and I do want to talk to you guys about my recommendations tonight as well um what we would need to do is figure out how are we making up whatever we're phasing out each year right so because we do not have any flexibility within the budget to account for any loss of Revenue um because it was different five years ago when we were not paying salaries with school choice when we were paying for the extra like nice to have stuff that's not the case anymore so if we were to phase out whatever it was over time we are really going to need to be continuing to look at how are we getting that money back in totally agree I think school choice is I think it can be a great thing for a district but I think when we're looking at like we've heard all year about the special education the behaviors are increasing at a younger age when we look at the overall piece I I think we just have to be very specific on numbers and um and where we're going to accept it and how many like where is the cost benefit and where is there not a cost benefit in looking at the the immeasurable as Nick says the kind of qualitative piece to it and then also looking at the numbers like there's got to be a balance in between I don't think that we can just be like yes let's just take everybody in that you know I mean we never really are denying kids because it's worked well and legally can I can I just SL well you can deny you can deny at a point of we can only fit five kids in this grade you know what I mean like and I think we need to like really look and hone in on those specific numbers that obviously you can't deny a kid that's applying for if they have you know unless they have very specific classroom needs that we can't accommodate for obviously I just wanted to just clarify like the the numbers that are on that sheet with the five students that are there that's not that's not including the general like $66,000 that we get for them so that's an over and above money that's either costing us or being reimbursed for the four in the small group setting is the state number that is is outlined for small group um it's not our number so when they give us small group it's kind of like that's how they are defining a small group as four and under ours typically are two or three they're really not at four is because it's not best practice for a lot of kids I mean that's really what what a small group is defined as and how we break it down um and then in terms of like the reimbursement for special education staff again those numbers are I mean our spreadsheets are broken down by our staff but those are Again State rates that are set for each of those things we've been working really hard over the past couple of years to redefine our service delivery grids and our IEPs so that we're maximizing our money that we're getting back for school choice so a lot of times so previously years like we had General Ed General Ed teacher par or special education teacher versus reading specialist we get a higher reimbursement rate for reading specialist we making sure that that our team chairs are are itemizing it as an individual session or small group or large group because those numbers are reflective of the costs that be reimbursed as well so I mean that's something that that um that Christine actually and and Alex really taught us um because we didn't realize that in terms of the reimbursement piece so we've been really working towards um maximizing all all of those pieces but I just want to say like I know that we're focusing on some of the negative pieces of school choice with the special education and the behaviors and the numbers and things along those lines but I also want to point out that we've got a lot of really really positive students that have come out of our school choice we've got amazing kids who are running Deca and doing amaz and doing wonderful for wonderful things that are amazing peer models for our students that have come to join our sports teams at high school and have really made them what they are and having kids that want to come here and want to play Norton Sports and not want to leave to go to other schools and things along those lines so I think that we like you're talking about the immeasurables of the negative impacts but there's also the immeasurables of the positive things that come out of it as well and the experiences that kids are getting we've got quite a few diverse students that have come in through school choice that our Norton students may or may not have experienced and it brings a positive more inclusive community into what we have going on right now so I just wanted to make sure that we're while we're looking at negative measurables that we're also looking at the positive impact as well I think that's a good point because I I guess somewhere along the way I'm confused about how we this turn negative about school choice I don't know how that I don't know how we flipped that or how it became like special ed and school choice and it became like kind of this this negative I'm not sure how we got here I just I just you say we make $1.6 million off a school choice that's not real because we're not taking out the cost of what we're doing but we are getting a check for 1.6 million I think that's the bottom line of what school choice is yes but but we have 246 kids that we have to service one way or another so that that's we don't though if we don't have Choice math is your enemy here not not full choice I don't understand like if there's a if there's a mistake in the map point it out but I mean I don't like the intangibles I'm not really sure like what we supposed to do with something we can't measure by definition like I I get what you're saying if if we think that school choice is is inherently bad and does not suit our students our students Norton students needs then that's a different conversation to I thought this was originally because you were not convinced that we were this was a positive monetary program for us I thought that was the original thing understand that but like you even with this what I have you're not you're not telling me how much money we're making so Nick if we take the $153 5,000 minus 15371 is is I call it back of the N because you can't even these numbers I'm not 100% sure that these numbers are are even accurate but I mean that's the back of the napkin kind of we're making 5,000 minus $153 71 for example technology $41 we get iPads or chome books for $41 well you take a look at we have a 5year lease we get like if you if we're getting laptops in Chromebooks for $41 we Absolut it's spread over the district it's spread over the district it's spread over the five years when you're look I get it I get it we don't have school choice we don't even we can't even have that discussion the school choice brought us something and and one thing I wanted to touch on with Casey the positive impact I believe it was three years ago the valorian from Norton High School school choice student and he went to Dartmouth saying it's not positive school choice I'm a huge I trust me I'm a huge school choice fan my issue has become that I just don't think it's nearly as profitable to what we're saying it is that's me and again I don't this hasn't proven my point to say hey this is actually 1.6 me explain can I tell you how to these numbers yeah can I just say I guess I would say at this point they're like I guess tell us how you want to measure it then because we've measured it like the right way and you're saying that's that's doesn't really measure it's not not correct so I guess the question you need to figure out these 246 kids how many are in general how many are in special and break them down you cannot tell me we spend $177,000 per pupil in nor and then for $153 variable cost we can educate that so we don't spend 177,000 for a pupil unless you st our entire budget and divide it by students that's correct that is not the way to do it go out go out and take whatever any 10 kids and move them out of town tomorrow and tell me how much money we saved the number is zero it's not a per kid expense it doesn't work that way that's not how a budget operates so you have to figure out okay is there a an incremental cost to that one kid being in here and that's what these numbers are these numbers are basically saying this is what that cost is and we get 5,000 is the 5,000 too low yeah I I you and I both agree on that it should be much much higher than that but so why I mean another examp be high than that if it's why we asking because it's been 5,000 well because it's been 5,000 for whatever 17 years meanwhile the the number for uh the what do you call it the charter schools goes up every damn year why shouldn't we have these same luxury is now okay then then that's my question why are we asking the state for more money if you're telling me we don't need more money from the state well I don't think ever said nobody said we don't more nobody ever said that you're making up you're making up statements that was never said time out we were all in agreement when I reached out to our state reps that school choice money should go high absolutely should it should so why are we asking for more school choice money if we don't actually need more school choice money who said we don't need first of all for $5,000 no no no no you're you're conflating two different things you're conflating it is that profitable for us and the 5,000 per year over past 17 years is somehow a fair number those two are are mutually exclusive okay but okay think I think we were we were more concerned with the disparity of our school choice reimbursement versus say like the virtual high school because don't for have gone up Charter goes up you know the vote goes up everything else goes up why doesn't our one Revenue Source go up our Revenue Source should go up as well that's and and we all agree on that I mean I think you're 100% right on that but but that is that is not the same issue as whether or not school choices is net positive or negative those are I just I don't yeah I don't know the special ed reimbursement it's only kids that are on IEP so if a student is getting like RTI Services we don't get reimbursed for that correct that's still at 5 what's RTI RTI is a student who well I mean somebody else can explain it but it's a student that um maybe got screened for OT for example and they were picked up for I don't know six sessions eight sessions 12 sessions where the OT or Kota works with them maybe in a small group maybe one-onone just to give them a little additional Support over certain amount I I think so or like you're working with the reading specialist yes um I I have to say Justine we really don't have the extra staff do OT RTI which is really sad right because there are definitely kids who could use it but we just well my son's getting RG small in small pieces right so it's not a huge amount but um I think so my recommendation to the committee tonight is for us to not accept any new students in K to 6 for next year because of the fact that we are looking at a really significant budget deficit we have our pulling back some of our supports for next year which looks at our reading interventionists our math interventionists our coaches are gone so I really feel that next year we should really maybe pause on k6 I am recommending that we could do an additional five students in each grade 7 to 10 I'm also one of the things that we've always done is that if a student is a school choice here and there a student and they have a younger sibling we want to make sure we're keeping families together so that would be can I ask you a question when you say an additional are we at Max at all those grades now at 7 to 10 yeah no I think we probably still have a little bit of wiggle room only because of just the way that we're able to spread students no no no no I'm saying do we have the number we are currently at do we have that many students enrolled you you want I'm sorry I don't understand you want to do an additional five students let's say we we could in grade whatever seven seven yep so seven let's just say 21 21 21 is our is our cap right now 21 is how many we have enrolled currently and it's not a cap do we have a cap on it right now there have have been no cap so you want to put a cap on so I'm saying we can take five more Lev seven to 10 not not have it wide open and the reason I'm not ad advocating for a wide open is because I think with our budget issues we have to we have to be thoughtful about what we're doing here um in terms of elementary students it would only be if they have a sibling that's already enrolled in school choice and they're coming up um last year we brought in 20 new kindergarteners across the two building that's that's a lot of kids um and the other thing I would ask the committee to consider would be allowing our J our um JCS sorry um allowing our NPS staff to bring their children um into school choice that they so chose um it's actually a really B it's a benefit for both sides it helps us keep staff here in District and it's a benefit to their families too so and we don't get a lot of benefits as Educators questions then yes yeah um do we not allow new school choice in 11 or is it just based on the number that you're not I know it's we don't allow seniors we don't allow seniors and we typically don't allow grade 11 either we kind of get to grade 10 and we feel like sometimes if you're leaving a junior or senior year of high school that's for a reason and um yeah so secondly with the staff exception to your proposal so if it's like a staff with like a second grader one like a one out be yes and typically I mean I have um a staff member that their daughter is coming into kindergarten and we've been doing choice for so many years and she said to me um do you have any idea what's going to happen like this has always been our plan talk about it but it is my recommendation that staff will we continue to um so the exceptions at the elementary level are Legacy siblings and staff staff that would be my recommendation I still don't think we should go this tonight because I'm not sure if Nick is comfortable with it um I know if Justin is or not but I think there's still questions is my guess I just had a quick one just about so um if we were to do the S to 10 let's say um in grade seven they decided they're not going to send their kid so now that drops down to 20 so now like are we going to cap it at like for grade seven it's 21 plus 5 would be 26 is that the cap or like if that's a great question you know I thought about that honestly Justin um I mean I guess the other question I don't know how many seventh graders will have but I think as long as you don't go over that 26 it would be comfortable so I'm just curious like you know what I mean like if a student is like oh I was school choice but I'm going to go back to my hometown or whatever no I honestly had thought about it thank you I guess my question on that and justing made me think of it um and I just lost it um plus five plus five on current numbers basically right I'll come back to you yeah so so the Legacy that's anyone who's currently in Andor has a sibling in so if you have a second grade of school choice in and then you have a kindergarten compan you take them keep families together 100% yeah and then Norton Public School teachers staff is there if you're paid by Norton Public Schools you're in is it a full-time role is it part-time is it nurses admin everybody nor Public Schools yeah so subtitute teacher no that's not a fulltime position so it has to be full-time you have to be a an actual employee did you did you mention that maybe May said this didn't hear you but um we've also all historically allowed families that moved out yes you did mention that okay um I didn't mention it but no um so typically what happens during the course of the year if a family leaves Norton um they are able to um move over to a VH Choice family and a lot of times um families do that just for the end of the year and then other times families want to stay and so we've had a number of families over the year families that out I we had a couple situations this year too that would allow them to St so how do we I guess from a law standpoint how do we isn't that kind of favoring people or not we can just tell them they're in and other people are out well so are we selecting at that point technically no because they are already here so it's we're not telling somebody from the outside they can't attend we're just allowing someone to stay um so what we so basically what we would do in terms of of we have to send this to um desie by June 1 so we would say it is school Choices closed in K to five unless these two situations K to six excuse me and then 7 to 10 dis May spots and then 11 and 12 is Clos and how's that selection process work right now first come first it's first come first Ser um so what happens is um previously Dr B and myself we meet with every single school choice family we bring them in we have conversations about about why why they want to come to Norton we talk about grades we talk about attendance we talk about the expectation of getting your child to and from school because we do not provide transportation um if the student has an IP it goes to Casey Casey reviews the IP and there have been cases where we've had to say you know I'm really sorry we're not able to you know meet the needs of your child's IEP here or our program is that capacity and those are the really the only cases that we can say no um or unless there's a felon charge so I remember my question yeah year over year do you get notified by school I know they don't have to reapply but do they out of a courtesy say yes we're coming back no so like we're saying there's 245 kids five of them could say say nothing and now we only know it's 240 no so what they would I mean if they decided they weren't coming back they would unenroll um because they need their school records to be sent to that would likely be their District wherever they're going to go right so um that's typically how we find out but it's just like any of our Norton families they can pick up and move tomorrow and sometimes they tell us and sometimes don't sometimes but yeah anybody have any other questions do you guys think you want to hold on this for a little bit I mean yeah I I don't no I can vote okay you good yeah if every's comfortable with it fine you have to agree but I mean if you feel like you have good data and well no I think the recommendation is a huge help yeah but you that's the thing I don't want you to like I me yeah like am I comfortable with the data no but I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with the data unless if you know what I'm saying unless unless you pull all 246 kids [Laughter] one other comparable I just thinking about you know is if you kind of think about this a in a little bit of a different way that I don't know if it's just kind of throwing out there but if you look at like the eighth graders that don't come here for high school it's similar to the conversation you brought up earlier we're still not shutting down classrooms and we lose 30 kids to other you know the Southeastern Bristol County so it's it's kind of that same thought process is we're still not shutting down you know a freshman class or we're not getting rid of a freshman teacher but we're still losing 30 kids to other scho but it would be a better example to me because at that point you're starting to go to different classes you're going to different teachers anyway it would be like saying it's for second grade going into third grade you lose 30 kids you would be able to lose third grade say like every freshman has to a lot of concerns if we lost go to private school their parents just can't taxes here so revenue is still coming in P business about it but it is what it is all right so if you don't have any other questions we have a motion to approve um the school choice recommendations as written we don't have we don't have a written it's on yeah you do it's in the it's in the packet so I guess the motion would be let me Rec it sorry so the motion would beag correct correct it would be for for fiscal year 25 school choice enrollments would be limited to grade seven through 10 new new I I would just want to add that we would we would allow here here's my thing though if we get like seven like I'm not going to say to two people no like I think there needs to be little flexibility like we're anticipating five but like if seven show up and like like a set of twins shows up or something like I take one we don't we don't have a we don't have a c there's no magic number but yeah but like we don't we don't technically have a cap but we do have a cap you're not going to go and let in it's 70 great setting points you know we we just don't say we're only taking 30 we're kind of like we're going to add five that would be 26 we had twins coming in we would say yeah 27's good yeah like if number five is the older twin and number six is the goal is sorry is it older I think it's just one of those things that the goal is to increase a little bit yes to not go 15 extra kids in 21 five seven to 10 we don't see all the s 10 kids show up it's it's you know perfect so n of those apartments I know right not that much might not be school choice but there might be seven or 10 new kids shown well and that's residential so that is something out of our hand so all right so we're back to the motion so all motion to approve the um the school choice um as written with the um with the addition of allowing uh transped students to remain in the district hey is there a second second all those in favor all right all right so discussion and vote on thanks for your work on this too by the way yeah thank you interesting um so what you have is so much what we've seen [Music] before we um so we we typically were giving you recommendations before when we were discussing um some of our reductions on the items in yellow just so that you had an idea of where the numbers that we came from when we met together and um the other ones if you have any questions are just different increases so typically we doing a $50 increase um and then there was the options of 100 that and then um was one of the ones that was a little bit different the um $100 increase so um a couple questions we I guess my first thought would be if we went to a 100 on Sports just the general fee and 100 on Transportation M that's $104,000 of impact I mean that's at least one position we could keep right yeah I mean I don't know how we're not doing that quite honestly right now and and I'll tell you right now I paid both of those fees so it's not something that you know I'm gonna have to pay the money but if we can if we can keep a position and I don't know why we wouldn't go up to the not welcome we've done it before yeah May the only thing I want to say is that um with the number of sta that we have going now that was based off the 50 so it would be a full4 sorry so the reductions we have now um it is based with the 29 staff members it's based off of these original items that we gave in the yellow with $50 so would full another addition so already projecting that we're going to get 52,000 back or the 26,000 there and the 26,000 there so already we already are counting on the fact that we're getting 52,000 so moving it up to 100 each would give us an extra 52 okay well that's I mean I just on the way want make sure all right so then add the Middle School athletics uh Sports up to 100 that's another 5,000 then I assume yeah right so now we're at 57,000 I think we have average teacher at 68 so at 100 yeah I mean I don't know that's I hate to say that but I mean I don't this is speaking from a standpoint of I I completely understand what denz is saying there's another piece of me here from a taxpayer side looking at this saying wait a second you told us you're going to cut 28 positions we go and save a position this is where the transparency piece comes in of Def finding money no we increase R so to me I think we should stick to our guns on what we said when we looked at all the cuts and through the ex executive sessions with the unions and blah blah blah and stick to exactly what we said 1% if this is what we get from 1% these are the positions that's happening these are the increases in these we do which would have been that 50 bucks so 50 bucks for a high school sports the only thing I didn't really understand was the middle school one because I had middle school I had at 13,5 350 over the 1% and not 9,000 so we just need to look at that one I guess a little bit but like my piece is we kind of got to hey if we got 0% if we got 1% we got 4% from the town this is what we were looking to do I think we stick to the exact same plan we've had that plan in place in terms of what we're doing this this is what we're rolling with we told you what we were doing that's how we're going to stick to it and and then when it all comes down in town meeting in two weeks whatever it is everyone knows exactly what they said they were going to do and we did it well I'm good with that you just save me 100 bucks yeah it makes sense I mean sitting here for the past nine years I and and I know Nick and Jesse and you guys the other three we've we've been trying to reduce or eliminate fees for years right and as much as you know Nick so eloquently stated it's it's it's maybe maybe a position maybe two but there's so many positions what position takes that like how do we even just and I would love to be able to save positions I mean I don't pay the transportation fee I pay two sports fees unfortunately you know with my daughter's academic record I'll be paying a lot of National Honor Society fees next year um I paid I paid a lot of extra fees this year so I mean it's I'm stuck between you know with denz and and Nick both just said you know do we raise the fees to save a position and it's just it's it's a tough pill to swallow because everyone's budget is is taxed already you know and and the last thing I would want is $100 could tax somebody out of participating or and I can already hear when the bus fee goes up 123 is GNA be more traffic I it happens first of every school year um and you have that many less kids because $100 could tax the budget away from Transportation um yeah I've actually changed it um I'm gonna agree with you guys no Nick what you said makes lot of sense actually like we we said this we said this is what's going to happen we kind of got to stick to the G on that I I I actually agree so my uh I just would be more for Christine So Christine we had originally $3,350 if we increase middle school fees so I don't know if it's in between 50 and 100 that we need to do but like that 9,000 fall short saying second so that extra amount was when Aaron and myself were going um through Middle School sports we were saving money on other sub um subscriptions and different things that was the extra okay so we had that was just added but it wasn't with fees got it okay so so the fee money we basically cut additional things at the middle school sports level to get to that 13 that original 13 yeah sorry okay so then then then if we did a $50 increase across all Athletics high school and middle school for every single sport with the one exception of hockey because we know how good expensive it is that would go to an extra $ we would get to the numbers that we said we would if you will at 1% that's correct which is $337,500 in the middle middle and high school clubs I'm I'm having trouble understanding exactly what we're saying here so we're saying we charge them 50 now and is a $200 cap and we're saying no cap with 50 yep so the rate stays the same um it just it's pay for every club and then that number we had originally at $116,000 that's with a cap of a $200 cap this number would now be uh 168 plus all the additional money so like that what I'm saying is with the clubs we're not doing what we said we're actually we're making more money with the clubs we're getting rid of the cap and it's very varable because it's hard to track all um we pretty much just backed into all the kids that are at cap off of spreadsheets from the middle school and um high school and if they were to pay 50 for their Max this was the extra money that we would then get to then offset the budget on the club speed like Middle School drama is a great example of this because um by the time Middle School drama rolls around it's like late winter early spring kids have nine times out of 10 already reach their Max the year and we have like a hundred kids that do Middle School drama so that's something that we're not really bringing in any fee on that particular area um it's it is harder to it's harder to know what kids are going to sign up it's a little more variable of course yes sotin said so I guess to my standpoint then is we we were going to offset $16,000 worth with a 1% increase the closest number we get to that would be doing a $50 no cap fee $14,000 and like you said it is variable so it's we said 16 but it might end up as of that day yes I agree totally agree so I guess for a club standpoint again going back to what we did I would be more inclined to say No Cap but it's $50 every Club you that gets us to a number that you're GNA have flexibility within anyway you know remes all that really does remove the C that's what we did what what do sports activities what is the current cap is just on clubs or it's not on sports right we removed that last year yes so it's just clubs have a c so now what we do is we're removing the cab for cles as well yeah that's right so it's almost like the first step that we took the sport yeah y okay anything else what about Transportation that's next oh same sheet yeah yeah so the motion would be to increase all high school and middle school athletic fees by $50 per Sport with no cap with the exception of hockey which would be increased $100 and remove the cap from all clubs at the middle school and high school levels uh and charge $50 per Club there and middle school wrestling is going to $200 and Middle School cross country is going to 175 right correct correct because it was yes that still be a $50 increase so moved out in [Laughter] favor [Applause] transp I think we had a second I think an easy way to put it is a $50 increase for high school and middle school sports hockey's 100 the board hockey 100 clubs we're removing the cap each Club you're a part of at the middle school or High School level is $50 yep and middle school wrestling is 200 and cross country is 175 that's correct that's the motion made motion made the motion I made the motion in favor okay I'm GNA be a no are you a no no 31 sorry four so 41 four1 sorry Dan I couldn't I didn't see you okay why you know a curiosity I don't want to race I just okay all right it's just a called a morality Clause I just don't want to race I get I just was was curious if something just that's principal I don't want to either don't I guess that's what people want so here we are all right discussion and V on transportation fees going said 50 bucks make it 50 bucks yeah keep it at 50 we said what we're going to do with 1% it's going to be $26,000 in transportation fees which would require a $50 increase across all buses and do we do we look at we looked at alation yes it's an $83,000 saving um because you're losing 130 that we bring in we still have to bring six graders here so it's not as much of a savings but it would definitely create a lot more traffic than chaos so so hard to believe is it unev that that would go against what we just talked about with splitting up families because if you have a sixth grader eighth grader at the same house and you don't let the eighth grader run the bus is kind of ridiculous well I you can almost guarantee the sixth grader is not going to pay the fee either because why B you have to bring quite frankly well it would be a six grade be if we get to that point there's yeah I mean I just think bus bus fees in general to me again Mor rity Clause I guess is absolutely s when we're funing program to get on their bus you know yeah I mean like at the end of the day if you're going to tell me hey you got to pick one or the other I'm gonna pick you got to go to school on your on your bus and Athletics is gonna be pay play you know so I wouldn't get into putting buses I think we just do exactly help you done increase the fee by 50 bucks and here we go again not sound like an old man but I mean I didn't pay any fees when I went to school I'm just saying like this is did you walk uphill I took my dinosaur back in the Stone Age in sound took my T-rex this is the most depressing meeting wait here we go we got your reading program I forgot that we should go back to that moment all right so Transportation at $50 so mov so second second those in favor anyone opposed no Dan's no no see I asked this time Dan thank you for that you're welcome right JCS principal search and section of any Representatives yes so uh Dr Marcus is uh moving on to his next step in in his career as such we need to hire our principal for JCS we're looking for our our representative stakeholder poop which uh would also include school committee membership um the application uh excuse me the posting to the position went out on April 12th it's going to remain open through tomorrow uh end of business we're looking to put together a team to start to review the uh applications schedule interviews the first week in May then schedule finalist interviews site visits Community forums like that May 15 16th area forward a recommendation to to Jen uh by the close of that week and then hopefully um get a as affirmation from the committee on the meeting on May 23rd we have applicants right now we have 15 W any internal is it the same is it the same process for internal like they just go to the no internal candidates okay so tonight you're looking for somebody to from the school commiss that on the committee me membership would be terrific Justine you we are just volunteering you for everything right now she volunteered herself that's fine she volunteer okay anyone else want to you have Littles it's a good fit yeah doesn't make sense for me or D you not be here next time yeah yeah all right on that note we have other business um I just want to mention to the committee that we have been invited um or requested to attend the finance committee meeting on Monday night to present our 1% budget to the committee um Christine is working on that recommendation um it is I I I'll be honest I'm not really sure what else we can present so I I'm confused haven't we done this right like what are we doing and so I mean are expecting you to say this is what we're cutting perhaps um and I've shared a lot of that with you guys already um perhaps so in that Spirit um 42 staff members will be getting letters tomorrow um 29 of them are um cuts like actual elimination of positions but because of the way that um the whole process works some of those letters will be transfer letters some of them are um bumping yes so like transfers you're going to be moving here um some people we have like long-term Subs that I have a one-year contract those letters will go out at the same time tomorrow um we've literally spent the entire week going over and quadruple checking that we're doing this correctly and that the right people are getting how do people already know they're getting cut um in some cases principales may have had conversation with somebody just say hey I just want to give you a head shot um but official letters are going out tomorrow across the district all the principles have everything they well I've got a few who've already said I know my position's been on good well and I think there are definitely some people that are are looking at the writing on the wall as right so understand we've been very clear about the fact that we're trying to keep Cuts away from um classrooms especially Elementary classrooms so um if you are in a position that is you know a little bit more so 29 outside of that so the total number is 29 reduction in staff yes what's the 42 number so that really means people who um are a senior staff member the position they're in is no longer going to be there but they're being transferred to somewhere else um and then also there are some staff members that are going to be getting um a reduction in um full-time status so they may be going from a 1.0 down to a08 or A6 based on their role in the budget process so the 42 is just just the number Rel to positions with 20 yes because it's very it's there's so much movement so I do have a question speaking a little bit if we have a nonrenewal for whatever say it's I don't I can't even do we have positions we still need to have filled that potentially can't be filled by those who are being reduced for example if we have an English teacher at the high school that resigns but we don't have any of those positions at the high school we may need to hire someone new yes so we still have to be active in the job search potentially even though right so for example um we have a school psychologist that is retiring at the end of this year we do not have anyone else in the district that is qualified to be a school psychologist so we will go out and post for that position um we have um The Brick classroom at at JCS that we need a special educator who's qualified to fill that role so we will still be posting for a few positions they are not new positions they are simply positions that have been vacated for one reason or another that we need to find a qualified not related to the budget correct corre you got to look at it as not not in terms of people in terms actual positions Idols yes so 29 positions correct have been elited so can I ask I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to repeat this because I'm My Little P brain is not all around it so first of all there shoot that we got yeah you said 42 there's 44 oh okay things on I must have miscounted but I was signing a million letters today I apologize so um and looks like seven are reductions in hours which I assume is FTE change y FTE change y so that leaves 37 so 29 people 29 positions are getting eliminated yes the other seven are are what the other the eight so when you look so um if you look at the First Column here you see um the first two teachers there those are reduction in force yeah those are people that do not have seniority to bump someone else they they are not coming back y um but then if you look the the position right underneath that that says the position is eliminated so the position is gone but that person has enough seniority to be able to go into one of these other positions and and and it's it's extremely complicated and that's why we've tried we've literally looked at these positions I mean at the end of the day Pam and I were going through the list again double check that lead to this FR um the FTE change are those people that are maybe at a 1.0 and going down um okay so we're and then when uh so if you go to the lgn um box all right so I think Nick Nick actually maybe maybe just said this um so it's not people it's positions so correct so we're not actually one of those grade five features is going to be filled by the reading intervenes yes all right so maybe the then the right way to look at this maybe is not to um not to show us the people but just show us the positions so it's 29 positions are eliminated right yes 29 positions 29 positions are eliminated um 29 see this is the problem because if you count many positions are this Sheet's confusing I think for this reason yeah there's only 12 positions on here that says position eliminators correct but correct and and so it's extremely complicated because the other version of this has people's names there right right and so when you see that it's a little bit easier to understand because of the way the contract works the way seniority and professional teacher status work um like so if you look at the middle school like these are position so the bottom one right there that's position eliminated but that person person is not able to come back in any other role whereas the position right above it is position eliminated but that person has the seniority to come back in it's very compc this is my concern and I'll be completely honest with you this is going to end up because it's public information someone's going to look at this and have no idea what the hell is going on and then just going to make assumptions that you said you eliminated 29 positions there's only there's only so what I'm planning on doing um not tomorrow um but in my newsletter to families next week is is walking through the positions that we have eliminated and that will be done for families I will not be putting staff names there but I will be saying we eliminated these four positions we eliminated this program we eliminated this and I think it's also important to include there those not names hypothetically I'm just making this thing up so no to freak out if we cut a social studies teacher at the high school that role could be filled from somewhere else in the district that position is gone that person however because of the NTA then can move and bump the lowest person at the middle school level if they're certify obvious and retirements so someone could fill a retirement position even though we eliminated a job correct the person may not get eliminated so so 29 positions are getting eliminated not necessarily 29 people should be it should be less than 29 people I think right might yes because there'll be some retirements yes yes so and like for example we had a resignation at the high school in a department that we were going to eliminate a teacher so therefore we didn't have to eliminate a teacher because somebody resigned and it very important as well because this always gets blown up 29 positions the are admin the are custodial the are specialist they are some classroom teachers it is spread as best as we possibly could across the board that made the most sense we didn't just pick grade five and say that's a great one to cut we're cutting it simply because from a class size standpoint hey it made more sense to cut the grade five teacher because there's less kids in that class next year than it would be to cut the third grade teacher we did our complete best in terms of trying to make this one as Fair as possible and onea and the most important to try to keep it as redu as least impactful to our students as we possibly could and I think it's also Al important to note that 29 position cuts for the schools is is devastating this is a huge this is a huge amount of staff these are positions that are needed these are positions that provide services to students they provide support to classroom teachers um and bed we will we will see the impact of this moving forward I don't want the community to think we had 29 positions that were just extra and we could cut it took a lot of time a lot of energy a lot of really crappy conversations to get to this point like nothing about this feels good at all so can we see this um a little a little differently so can we see the 29 POS the 29 positions that are eliminated the 29 positions we will no longer have and then separately the number of people number that are getting you know laid off as well because I think Nick and I both were confused about yeah I'm sorry it's a lot of semantics and um right and I actually I actually um in a discussion with Paul gday I was I was saying you know yeah I'm looking at the sheet we have like 40 44 people cut that's our you know we're losing 43 positions but we're actually not no um it's personel changes I think is the safe thing to say I me some of them like the the seven reduction in hours it's definitely it's a hit to those people about that but but the 29 positions eliminated is the actual elimination of that position will no longer be at okay and I'll actually denz when I share that with you guys I'll actually include the reductions as well so if it's um a 1.0 I'll say we're losing four of this rooll okay those are those are losses and then this is me being picky but when we say coach we like maybe just clarify that because I think people going to think it's so if we just put on there whether it's career coach or curc coach whatever so my other question kind of circling back to say a non-renewal position do we have any non-renewals that were also a position eliminated like not like double dipping but like say for example I'm just going to pick on it because it's easy say we have like a non-renewal guidance position and we were going to eliminate a guidance like we're not it's not like a double savings right like it no so um there so if someone was like go for the cause um so non non-renewals are um when we let staff go because it's not a fit um there will be cases of that where we're saying okay this was not a fit that person we're going to move on but we're not going to back fill that yes we do have a few of those do we have any non-renewals of where we are backfilling and could any of these 29 members take those positions yes potentially okay and I also think we're we might have one or two more retirements between the on end of the year just from conversations that I'm having with staff so there's also the potential that somebody May able to be able to come be called back because one of their colleagues retired how does do that work like do we have a certain time frame that we can recall them 18 months we're actually required to recall them so four months that's only if there's still out of work though theoretically I mean we're required to offer them the position within 18 months sometimes people take us up on it and sometimes I think typically it's on 18 months down the road that we're but so thinking ahead and we all know what's going on with budget and I'm not going to get into it do we have a list say there is an influx of money due to what the taxpayers say in the next few months do you have like a list of priorities of those 29 positions to bring back yes so um when we last met we T we talked about the positions and they came kind of went down from yes they went down to T so we'll do the opposite we'll start at the bottom and work our way back like my thought you know if we're looking at like a Dean position not a priority in my opinion I would rather have a classroom teacher back not a Dean like I just want to make sure we're on kind of that it also will greatly depend Dan on when we were to get any money right so like if we're not going to get money until November it's a different conversation about what makes sense at that time um I think that's another huge piece that fincom we need to make sure we stress that maybe again on Monday whatever day we're meeting with them because the override is always well and good the override happens in May June whatever July still gonna hurt us we still have already made those cuts these people are already going to be probably looking for jobs because they they're out of one that like if that the longer we extend that vote whether it be September October November if we start the year with down 29 positions and that override goes through let's just hypothetically say it goes through on you know October 30th November 1st we have the ability to rehire who are we hiring I have no idea where you're finding people also don't don't forget like if if it passes on whatever October first we have to actually then as a town go out and collect that tax too it's it's not a pile of money we have sitting there waiting so it's it's a year a year correct without a doubt and I think that's needs to be stressed as well that like these positions aren't just going to match Year back they're gone until next year laugh they're gone that's it I think you almost have to look at it as like next year's budget yes you have because I mean if there's you know if we get some of these positions we could grab in the middle of the year if you know say it's I don't even know uh a special math interventionist if we can get a math and Convention yeah let's get a math and Convention M I know I'm just even in the best case scenario as override it's want have the money that's over next year and I think the other key piece that like you kind of got blasted more pit was even with an override unless if it's that that more that bigger one we are still losing positions we are not back to level services with a $4 million override well and the other part of help but it's not going to be our positions are gone either way because our budget closes before correct before even the our books are closed June 30th and also um our staff is able to collect unemployment the day after school ends so all of our schools are getting out June 13th except for JCS which gets out June 14th um and they're able to collect that very next day and and so that's an expense to the town as well so when I guess maybe I'm na you to know about it when can a teacher collect for like for example if I'm a teacher that gets laid off and then I sign contract to start the next school year in say Mansfield they can fear thetically collect until they're employed again yes even though they may have signed the contract which would 5th pretty much everybody does because why wouldn't you it be kind of done I mean I'll be honest I got laid off three years in a row um you got called back I got called back before the end of the school year every single time but I don't know how we do that this year um but we will be posting for a few positions like those ones that I talked about um we cut two out of the three math interventionists um they are all you know we're going to repost one of those three positions we're going to post one of them but in order to make it equable people will have to look for it and so those types of things and this is me being nitpicky but I think from from you and central office down the principles really need to hone in on when do not say a word until the papers are out because I've already gotten a few emails and calls like my position was eliminated why I'm like I have no idea what you're talking about so like principles I don't want to blame anyone but like who's ever said these to people like give you a school by school but like it needs to be a little bit more like everyone gets their stuff on this day if you don't then you're all set you're good I don't think that's nitpicky at all I think how it should be AG the principles rum rumor started last year terrible last year because of that think that's a honestly Jen I think that's a conversation you have to have absolutely yeah because 100% agree you know to slap in the face at central office as well yeah we've gone through this entire process trying to figure out how to make this work and we don't want to be doing this and then for them to kind of just be like well well sorry your position's getting cut there no formal announcement we start last year remember when the teachers went and told the kids kids are crying I mean I mean honestly I I I think it comes from a place of wanting to be respectful and kind and and understanding that this is someone's livelihood there's a time for that on Friday at 4:00 right unfortunately people talk once you say something it just goes like unbelievable sadly what a sad day um so yeah so I will um that's it so can we just circle back to um finance committee meeting if I'm not available Monday realized they wanted us to come yet again isn't our like do we thing for Mond yes okay that's why I volunteered before volunteered before is this something that we like to do like what is the so we were told that we were scheduled for Monday night on Tuesday Morning um and asked to provide they want us to present our 1% budget and they want us to provide um a line by line salary report um for every single n Norton employee are the current salary and the projected salary for next year um that is not the fincom asking one person on the fincom asking one person we in the email I received which I fored to you I was told that this is what the fincom is asking for um apparently that's what they get from the town side the town side has access to the software to be able to do that because all of our payroll goes through the town hall we do not have that same software so so it is literally a cut and past process from our budg from our salary book which is extremely like it's it's not just a data dump it's going to take Christine and Courtney a huge amount of time for them to pull this information I I think that you guys have done enough work over the last few months that the answer is just no right now the answer is no I'm sorry we were asked to provide it tomorrow and I said we simply cannot do that I said Tom I said with the you know with the week that we've had um you know with the short timeline and the week that we've had trying to figure out all of these layoffs we we just don't have the capacity to do respectfully say we can do we can get it for you from Monday the 1% I did not say we can get the salaries by Monday I'm confused on what that why why do they want to see the salaries I know what they want to see they want to see that here's all the salaries here's what we paid this year here's the increase and what's the percentage increase that's why they want to see it nothing to do with 1% have no they want to see they're not going to see names go they can see it this isn't the first time we've done this exercise we've done this before for the same person asking this isn't the first time you can't you can blame on one person because I think we all know who the person is the fincom is asking for it fincom he should have actually who sent the request it was Mike units it not the I'm sure my my point is we did not have the capacity this week to turn around anything like that fine and you know ultimately I report to the five of you so if the five of you are asking me to provide something we are more than happy to do no whatever we're not but we just did not have I just don't have we don't have the capacity that's our answer your spirit answer no you are dealing with 29 I mean 42 letters that are being sent out 44 44 letters tomorrow like when did they ask for this this is insan Tuesday morning so I guess my my thoughts on this are this the line by line salary request has nothing to do with the 1% budget presentation if down the road they would like to see that sure let's get through budget season let's get meeting let's get to the through the 1% and then if they choose to eat again over the summer or till the fall we'll give it to them that we we're we have five buildings under your purview with 400 something employees that you have to manage daily you don't have the time for this one request respectfully never mind they're going to go through tomor they're not going to go through enough we're done jumping through GRS I'm sorry the thing is to me the request isn't a bad one I I do want to see it why didn't you ask this in February 1 why didn't you say Hey listen now all of a sudden it's needed now it's needed and you need to we need to jump through hoops to try to get that done and take away from one what's going to be a crazy day tomorrow and then two obviously coming off a vacation and everything else like to me it's just insane that you're going to want this isn't pulling 15 people here and we can quickly run the numbers you know know if it's a huge long drwn out process you can't give us four business days you expect ahe so needless to say I will not be there Monday because it's probably smart for me not to be there um we don't need a form correct we do not we are we are just presenting so if you can be there you be there not haven't we already just to review this didn't we already present a 1% budget to them yes and and like so what Christine has been doing this week in addition to doing everything that I need her to help me with and everything J again and that's what I just men we have nine to five jobs this is an extra piece of the job that we can't accommodate right now so when we give you guys our line by line budget you know you know all those pages right so Christine is in the process of creating that 1% budget line by line that we that we share with you because and ultimately that is what we will present to them on Monday night but I don't know how much else we can present this an idea in terms of anything new tell them we'll absolutely give you the sideways fill it on F but that's they already have information no if they don't have the information no they do they don't want to get it then then know what we're going to do we're going to turn around and tell the fincom hey Freedom of Information Act it's going to take her 40 hours it's going to take Courtney 70 hours and of 130 or whatever 110 hours it's going to take is there hourly rate this is how much going to cost you to get that information and you know I I have to and I I emailed Mike this afternoon I and I said we just can't get this for you tomorrow morning we've had bu week I do not want to be seen as combative I do not want to be seen that we're not cooperating we are more to cooperate with anything however you say the scho Comm do not have the capacity and the time you have given them the a fiveyear projections you have like you presented I I this is I like it the problem the problem is until we can't keep getting punched in the face at some point you got to go on offense you want to give us you want to put all these things against us we'll do it for you it's G to cost you pretty B to do it because at the end of the day this because if we keep doing this oh we're gonna play nice we're gonna play nice look what look what playing nice gots you want it we we'll do it no's going to cost us outside of her job I got you of liars another budget thank you you're you're putting additional work in front of our already thin stretch uh admin staff not pulling this for you to get it you want you want this information by July one we can chip away at it you know on a Friday afternoon and do whatever sure four days we're not doing it and that's what I would say and that's what the school committee also said has asked you to say okay we good we're good and I'll be there so I only have one thing do anybody else have anything no um just a reminder after this lovely meeting um that the IAC basketball game is coming up a week from tomorrow 7 o'clock at high school um sadly in the last two months we've had three parent losses so um I I I guess I can go on record and saying this is the last this is the last year for iack so um the committee would like to go out in a big way we have a lot of families to help it's been a great run um but it's just has been hard to maintain so um tickets are on sale it's all over Facebook um the schools um the high school students went to the schools and and try to you know get the little ones excited um so I'm hoping everyone's hoping it's a good turnout but um purchase tickets right online so it's a lot easier in terms and at the door and at the door if they don't sell out online yeah so that's it thank you anything else from you guys is there a motion to adjourn so moved there a second second all in favor thank you thank you