This is a uh meeting of the town of Norton zoning board of appeals at 7:01 so we can get started. Uh we have two uh applications to deal with on the agenda tonight and then we have some other
business to take care of. Um old minutes that um hopefully we'll we'll get through. Uh the first item on the application is um 20 Juniper Road. The applicant is is it
Jean Alves? >> Yes. >> Okay. Applicant seeking variance relief for setbacks on an accessory structure. We have in the file um plans that are
dated um August 26 of this year and they show the um planned construction um I think as under construction. So I'd like to hear from the applicant
as to what is it he is trying to accomplish. Uh this is on a uh lot square footage of 6,200 approximately square ft. Uh there's a single family residence. There's an
existing metal gazebo and an existing shed. And then um like to hear what is planned for and what relief the applicant is seeking.
The house, according to the plan of record, sits three and a half feet away from the sideyard setback, very close to the front yard. Um, well, to the road to Juniper Road. Uh, but it's not clear to me what else is going
on on the property from the uh static plan that we have. So, Mr. Alves, are you going to >> just let us know who you are and uh your address? Um, I'm uh Gian Alvis Jr. Uh, I live in
20 Juniper Road. This is my father. >> Okay. >> So, I'll be helping him. >> Yeah, sure. >> Uh, wait. So, you want to me to explain like what what the construction is? >> Yeah. What is it that you're trying to accomplish? >> Three season kitchen. Yeah. Yeah. Uh
trying to build a threeseason uh like kitchen, you know, like three walls and like you have a kitchen on inside like an outdoor kitchen uh for like barbecues, you know, guests, you know, just general like outside kitchen cooking
>> that's under a roof. Is that structure enclosed or to be enclosed? >> Uh no, it's going to be open. And it's just going to have three walls in the kitchen and it's going to be open to the outside. >> Did you see the other plans? >> Yeah, I did. Yeah, I was trying to call
them up right now. In fact, thanks. >> So, that's a rectangular building. It It doesn't match what I'm seeing on the static plans. It looks like a an L-shaped building. >> It does. It should be an L.
>> The roof stops. Yeah. >> Comes in this way and then comes out. >> So there's your L right here. >> Yep. I see that. And it's configured this. This is showing then the back wall of the intended building. Is that right?
>> Yes. >> The way I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, you have the kitchen on the back wall plus a bathroom. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And uh why does it say on the plans from August under construction?
>> Uh >> did you start construction? >> Yeah, we started construction and then uh Ed uh the building commissioner told us to stop construction cuz we needed zoning bylaw uh relief. So we stopped construction since then and just left
it. until and made our application for the zoning board. >> Okay. What u so you didn't have building permits to begin? >> No. >> What state is the uh construction in? Uh >> yeah, thanks.
>> In hold. >> It's in hold. It's uh >> how much has been completed? >> Uh the rough. >> It's the only the rough. >> So forms have been poured like are you you're putting footers in, right? Yes. >> For for the Uh-huh.
>> How much is how much is built? >> The the rough is this have the wall a hoof and the deck. >> Yeah. >> Just need to complete the room. >> What's >> Okay. >> So, the seating area is what I was seeing in the forefront of the other
view. >> Correct. >> It's a covered seating area is >> Yeah. >> I guess what I'm how I describe. Do you want to see? >> No, I've got it here. I just didn't >> right there. >> Yep. Yep. >> Yeah.
>> I can't um There it is. There it is. >> Yeah. Thanks. What do you do in these things um in the winter time when cold weather sets in? Do you decommission them, turn off water and all? Yeah, turn off the wire.
>> Just not really. It's If it's too cold, you can't really use it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what I'm That's what I was wondering and it was unclear to me. Um >> So, this is um Well, it can't be used for a residential accessory unit, right?
Does that qualify as an accessory uh dwelling unit? I'm trying to find it. >> Yeah, that's what I was um I meant to look at and I didn't. >> I I have another question first. While you're looking for that, >> is your house built on the property line
or over your neighbor's property line? >> It shows that on the tax records um map geo, >> you need me to >> I'm not saying that that's that this is right. >> You want me to pull it up? >> Do you Oh, yeah. Can you pull that up
there? I guess I could hear too, but >> it seems to indicate that the house is over the property line. Who is to who is your a butter to to your right when you're looking at your house? >> Find one. >> Is there a single family home there?
>> Yeah. Uh no, no, no. >> Dave Dave. >> David or Dave? >> Dave >> to to the right of you. Who's there? When you're looking at your house from the road from Juniper, >> it's a Dave and >> that says that's occupied residence, right?
>> Yeah. >> You see, >> you see how it looks like it's over the line there? >> I'm not saying this is right. I just was asking uh what you knew. >> We did a plot plan. Our plot plan
uh I it shouldn't be over the line. Also, the house we didn't uh build it from scratch. It was a pre like the house was already there when we bought the property in 2020. >> The house was already there. >> The house was already there and when we buy it in 2020 >> four years the other one.
>> Okay. What were you just saying, Brian? Mr. Carmichael, >> I was saying that the building commissioner is now here if you wanted to ask any questions. >> Okay. Um, yeah. Hi. Um, Mr. Building Commissioner, Mr. Bailey, uh, can you hear us?
So >> he can if he has a microphone or he can talk to us if he has a microphone. Um I was simply asking u on map geo it looks like the the single family residence is over the property line >> accessories
>> and I was wondering if you had >> seen that although the map submitted does shows the property line >> and the houses within the pocket of the uh >> of the property. Is Ed able to communicate?
>> Oh, give me a sec, Ed. If you look behind on the map, that's the tax assessor records >> and the house. >> Oh, yeah. >> Seems to be the the property line jags over and uh that's why I'm asking
>> you have the prop, >> but the certified plan by the um engineer shows the property line >> straight. So, I mean, we can go by that. I'm I was simply asking for purposes of asking.
>> Ed, can you say something? >> Yes, I'm I'm here. >> Okay. Well, you're on Brian's laptop. I can hear you, but not uh the audio isn't feeding into the room. Um, >> it works though. >> Ed, >> put the speaker down to it so everyone
can hear it. you uh have you seen the property line and the tax records? >> I have. I mean I I trust the surveyor's line more than I do the the town map lines. >> Okay.
>> Map map Geo is notorious for being off. And and honestly, as uh as his son was saying, even if it is off, this is one of those that everything in that area is skewed and not perfect by any means.
There's only so much we can only so much we can really do over there. >> Yep. I can um I'll accept that as Map Geo's lines are unreliable. >> Yeah, I I would definitely trust Chris Sharet, the surveyor there, for Map Gio. >> Okay.
>> Okay. We'll get we'll get past that. Thanks. >> No problem. >> Then um actually if you're still there, are you still there, Mr. Bailey? >> Yes. Yep. I'm here for the >> Can you uh can you tell us the history of this? What happened?
>> I can you hear? >> I can hear. >> There was a neighborhood complaint regarding some construction in the backyard. Um, so I stopped by one day. I spoke with the uh the two gentlemen there before you. We we discussed the fact
that that would need building permits and probably bigger than that, it would need most likely zoning relief based upon the small lot size. Um, so they they went ahead, they got plans finished up, they got their survey
from Mr. Chet and that's when we found that you know as as suspected they were >> on the propert >> a lot closer to the lot lines than uh than we thought. >> Okay. Uh >> and then regarding your question as an ADU that should not that should not
function as an ADU. It is just a a three seasonasons outdoor kitchen. >> Yeah. with, you know, it looks like they got a gazebo that's uh, you know, kind of a put up take down type gazebo that's to the front of that in a more seating area style, but I I
wouldn't consider that an ADU by any means. Just a an accessory building, but not an accessory dwelling. >> Okay. Thank you for that as well. Um, so questions from the board. I'm not
clear on I can ask or you can ask. The existing shed pictured in the upper left hand corner. What is that building? >> It's a a shed. >> It's a shed. >> Like a shed. Yeah. >> The roof line on Google looks like it's a complex roof line cut in a couple
different directions. That's just a shed used for storage. >> It storage. It has u one it has uh like we use it for our gardening tools. Uh the we also have like some like general like like machinery and tools and stuff.
Uh and we also have like uh like uh holiday stuff like Thanksgiving decorations, Christmas decorations in there. Like it there's nothing in there. There's no no bathroom, no nothing. It's just the shed >> then. >> And it's unfinished walls. >> Next to the planned construction is an
existing metal gazebo. What is that? Uh, it's like a I want to control IKEA or >> No, Wayfair. >> Wayfair. It's like a >> It's a metal frame. >> Like a metal frame like uh thing. You just >> That was a pool. >> Uh, is there >> It's kind of like IKEA like you assemble it and then you just >> It's a roof.
>> Walls. Are there walls on it? >> No walls. No walls. >> It's a metal frame. You can We can move it wherever we want. >> Gotcha. >> Okay. >> Yeah. It's not like It's one of those ones that aren't like >> just a roof with posts and >> Yeah. Yeah. Pretty. At least that's what
I'm looking at. >> Well, you know, there are a number of things that would need would require variances. We could talk about, you know, how this started out, of course, but um to the side yard set back
um on the in the south 3.9T 2.8T 8 ft. Um, at the backyard property line between 3.3 ft and 5.4 ft. Uh, supposed to be 10
uh to the backyard. Um, sideyards here. This is in an R60 zone. >> Yes. >> But it's a small lot. Uh, what's the uh normal sideyard in an R60? 25
and also I note the um coverage on the lot as um shown on the certified plot plan uh the maximum is 16% and existing covered by building is 41%.
So there are a number of factors here that we have to talk about in relation to all of this. There's a lot of building on this lot, >> right? >> Go ahead. Questions from members. >> So
>> I guess the existing metal gazebo >> uh we can we've been thinking about getting rid of it. We we're willing to get rid of it if it causes any problems. >> Well, that that's what I'm saying. That's not that is not a permanent structure though.
So, I could I can >> and although they depict it here. >> Yeah. Right. >> You know what I mean? I think you can discount that. >> I I think we could we I would be comfortable discount discarding that because that can come down. >> It's not a permanent structure fixed to the ground apparently.
Um, it is it is shown here, but I got you. >> Um, >> I don't I don't know how construction takes place even in this zone, you know, so close to the property lines. I mean, the existing shed, when was that built?
Do you know? >> Uh, there was speaking from a conduct >> 2020. You have you have a >> a smaller shed. >> A smaller shed. >> We just uh rebuilded a put you have a
sled on the floor. >> Mhm. >> I guess the the old one went try to do a garage or something like this. I guess I don't know. >> And they just uh follow the the slab you have there. >> So was that there when you >> existing flat before we purchased the house?
>> Yes. Oh. So, it sounds like somebody put up >> Yeah. Cool. I don't >> How big is that shed? >> You know how big it is? >> It doesn't say on the plan. >> Doesn't say on the plan. I can only assume. I mean, it looks pretty big.
>> Yeah. >> And >> I mean, it's got to be over 20 ft on one side. And >> this shows the concrete driveway. >> 20 20 by >> Yeah. 20 by >> maybe 19 by >> 20 by 20 it looks like. No,
>> by by like I can't say like >> 14 maybe 20 by 14. >> Yeah. >> Plan shows a drive up on that side of the house. Maybe somebody built it as an intended garage. >> Yeah. >> Tough to say.
>> Although there's landscaping in here now. Um, so you can't drive to the shed, you know, with a car. >> 24 by 16. >> Oh, they have >> take a >> big
>> I mean, what do what do we do with this? >> Oh, here's our here's our other problem. They already have footers in the ground. >> I know. >> They got, >> you know, where how are you tying into the septic? Are you Do you have septic there?
>> That's a good point. >> No. Is it >> the town? >> That's the town. >> Are you tying in that bathroom tying into the town? >> Are you going to tie into the town sewer? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, that has to be health department, too. >> Yeah.
>> Where do the where do the pipes go uh to carry waste? >> Did you already put the pipes in? >> Yeah, the pipe hole to the to the main hole to the house >> that's already been piped through. >> Yeah. >> Oh, okay. I see. >> Connected to the house one. >> Okay. >> Yeah.
I don't know if Department of Health gets that or not. >> They might not. >> Well, because they're on >> Yeah. >> town. >> Well, you still have to Oh, you're right. You're right. Septic is what goes
to Department of Health. >> Yeah. >> The sewer tiein is there. I guess they're adding to capacity, but I I don't know the rules regarding that. That's that's all I'm pointing out. I mean the house is is already you know just a couple feet away too. So that
mitigates in their favor. I don't like the fact we never like the fact that construction is started and then they come for permission. Um >> right >> we always dislike that and u you know are opposed to that happening. The the
best way to keep it from happening in the future is to sting someone and say we're not going to give you a variance. Then of course it's up to the town. What are they going to do? Are they going to go to try to enforce you know the building code u against them because we
didn't grant a variance. Uh but it puts us in a tough position with the next applicant who whose plan we don't like and we say well no we want you to do it differently because they're going to say well why didn't I start it without permits and then come for permission. So
it's a difficult spot. Yeah. >> And and I don't like it. There's also a lot of building on that lot, including the lot coverage. You know, again, 16% is the maximum. It's 41%. Of course, I don't know if the 41%
includes the existing shed. >> It looks like it probably would, but >> what's the covered deck on the house here? Is that that's connected to the house structure? Uh, >> is it a raised deck? >> It's like a or is it all? >> I It's like uh So, it was like a a porch
and we just added a roof. No extra walls. Just like it's out in the open still. >> So, cover and there's like seeing underneath. Yeah. >> Yeah. This this I did I think two years ago. This is I pull P for this one. This P. >> You had what are you saying permit for
that? >> Yeah, that one got permit. >> We had the permit on that one. >> But is that is that ground level or is that >> ground level? Ground level. ground level. Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, several area, several points of variance relief would be
required. Sideyard, rear setback, um lot coverage, I don't even know how to quantify that. Uh we could say shall not exceed what's on
the plan. Um we could specify you know get rid of the existing metal gazebo as shown on the plan. How do you want to approach this? And the house is already in the corner of the property. Who's in back? >> Yeah.
>> In back of you. What is there? >> That's him. That's the >> I own the property behind it. >> Okay. Is that a residence? >> Yes. >> I I I printed out Google Maps and it's but it's a tough print out. I can't really see.
>> Okay. Um are there other questions of the applicant at this time? >> No. >> Cuz I can I can ask the butter. >> Yeah. >> For for comments from any of Butter who's in attendance. Yep. >> Um hold there right now if you can here or >> Well, you can you can have a seat if you
want. That's fine. Thank you. But at this point, uh, public hearing is still open. Let me ask if there's anybody else here to speak in favor of the application or in opposition to the application. >> I'm more curious at the moment.
>> Could you tell? You got to tell us your name and address. >> Coming up. Do you mind coming up? >> That's okay. >> Yes, please. >> Yeah. >> Just so you can speak in >> anybody watching on Zoom can. >> So, what's your >> We're not of attention at the moment. I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> Yo, your name and address. Tom Watson.
>> Tom Watson. >> 15 Farm Lane. >> 15 Farm. Okay. You're Are you directly in back? >> Yes. Um, if you just had a picture up, it was that long lot on the right side of Farm Lane as you drive down Farm Lane. Got there. >> And what are those structures there that
we see? >> Not that. Not that you're before us today. >> House garage to the left of the garage. Those are enclosed trailers. >> Okay. They I wondered if they were trailers. >> Yes. Yep. >> Yep. >> All right. Well, that's not our subject matter tonight, but how do you what is
your position with regard to the application? >> Um, kind of on the fence at the moment. I'm more curious at the moment >> as to how you're going to figure out the percentage issue
because >> of I am thinking about enlarging my garage. So, and I enlarge the back part of it. >> I'm going to bring it back up. >> Sure. >> So, I don't know what the process is,
but I'm kind of here also to find out information about this process. >> Okay. I mean, what what's supposed to happen is you go to the building inspector. >> Mhm. >> And you talk to him and you show him a plan of what you're going to do. >> He can then size it up.
>> Yeah. Well, he I did talk to him briefly briefly today. >> Okay. he could size up what you need to do and that's what >> he told me there was I guess a couple of different ways to go about it depending on whether it is or isn't 10 ft from the property line >> right
>> I'm not positive about where it is right now I have my land surveyed so I kind of have a pretty good idea of where the property line is >> okay so go ahead you were going to say >> so we probably in the last couple years
we've I think we've this This is our second application that we've had something come before us where they've already had footers in the ground and plumbing moved and and you know normally I would try and look normally
I'd say you have to what's your hardship right? Uh there's going to be hardship of why you need the variance cuz we're not just here to grant them. Uh, >> so what do you do in the case where something's already started and there may not be a hardship? >> Well, that's what we >> Oh, that's what we have to decide. I'm
sure this has happened before. It's >> happened a couple times. >> It's a couple times and I and I not happy about it. >> Kind of stuck in a bad position. >> We're stuck in a really bad position. Right. So, I I like the fact that you're >> you're asking you're asking, which is
great cuz I I'd much rather grant me personally, I'm not going to speak for any other board member up here, but I would rather see an application and then vote on the variance than to be stuck in this position where they've spent money. And, you know, I mean, we're let's I'll
be honest, we're in our right to say no. Sorry. >> I I don't know much about the hardship side of it. I don't think I have an issue as far as the percentage side of it goes based on the size of the lot. Um, so that's probably less of an issue. >> Yeah.
>> Okay. The 10 foot that you mentioned, I think that's probably the rear setback in this zone, meaning you're not supposed to go within 10 ft of the a rear property line, >> whether it's for you or for them. Now they are, but there and there's already an existing
uh existing shed they call shed that's one 1 and 1/2 ft basically from the back property your back prop >> your property line he's >> well what do you do in that situation? >> Well that we can't do anything >> it's already there
>> and could try to enforce somehow but the town doesn't engage in that usually. So even though this other structure is already there, it's not completed. >> What's not completed? >> It's not approved. >> The new one, you mean? Yes. Yeah. Exactly. >> Correct. >> Right.
>> So you still have power or whatever you want to as far as >> Well, this board just grants or denies variance. >> Right. We don't really Yeah. >> If we denied it, the town would then have to decide, are we going to go out there and start a I don't know if it's a court case or what to tell them to tear
down what they've already done. Yeah. >> The town doesn't I never on the town side too. >> What's that? >> There's expenses involved on the town side as well. >> Exactly. Right. That's why we don't like being in this position. >> We only say yes variance or no variance
at this point. But the 10-foot parameter that you mentioned is probably what we call a rear yard setback. meaning that you, the building commissioner, would say you got to stay 10 ft away from your rear property line and then you don't
have to come to the ZBA, >> right? >> If you wanted to go 5 ft from the property line, you'd have to you'd apply for a variance >> and and tell us why and what hardship is involved. You know, you can't place it here because there's septic or there are
power lines underground or something. All those things can be hardships. But in this case, what we're saying is they didn't come to us first and there's an existing construction that's been there for we don't know how many years.
They're not asking for retroactive relief for that. The town could say even if we grant a variance for the new construction, the town could say that existing shed doesn't have a permit. We don't know. That's not within our purview tonight.
>> Yeah. We're just kind of laying out how it works. I >> mean, lot coverage is going to So, to circle back and answer your question, it's a little difficult with the lock coverage right here. >> Um, >> with all the structures shown, >> with all the structures,
>> I I do believe I can in my own mind, I can take out that metal gazebo cuz I mean I >> to try and close up the percentages. No, but but that that I mean that could break in a like I mean that's unmovable.
I I've seen them. They're movable. >> Um >> Yeah. So I'm not even sure if that qualifies as lot coverage. >> Yeah. And I'm not 100% even I I I can't even tell if that's even included in that 41%. It's tough for me to tell. >> That's a good point. you know,
>> I don't think it is only because it doesn't look like it has any kind of >> um >> Yeah. >> Although I I I don't know. I can't tell. >> It's it's impossible to tell. I mean, normally we say we want the size the dimensions of the construction there and
the s the dimensions of the construction that's planned. We have the dimensions of the construction as planned, but we don't have dimensions of the existing structures there, including the >> metal gazebo. I mean, we we could ask
for that. We could, you know, say get a plan that shows that. I don't know how we would give a variance on the um lot coverage. We're not going to have numbers. We'd have to at least
we're going to have to at least figure out how they come to that 41%. >> Yeah. Whether that includes the gazebo or not >> or any of it. We don't know if it includes the existing shed. >> Right. >> Is this
uh drawing up on the screen uh done by a surveyor and markers put in, >> boundary markers put in? down by done by air surveyor Sheret land surveying which is a reputable You don't have Sharet here with you tonight do you
>> I know the name I I spoke to him >> you don't have Mr. Sharet or Sharet land surveyors here with you? Do you? >> Uh, no. We haven't done >> Well, what I'm suggesting is we may need a redo on this showing the building
sizes of the existing structures there. So, one of the variance relief items that we'd have to vote on is the lot coverage percentage. In other words, the size of the buildings, the footprint of the buildings as a factor of the entire
6,200 square ft. They didn't show the size of the existing buildings here. And I think we need to see that at minimum. We're not >> Is that on an assessor's map? >> Not reliably.
>> Yeah. As we can tell, >> we just we just looked it up and u >> that's where that looks like. Yeah, exactly. That's what we saw a minute ago. Um, >> what is NR60? You said I heard you say NR60.
>> R60 zone. R >> 60. Okay. I thought I heard you say >> N R R I meant a N. >> And that's 60,000 square ft. Correct. >> Yeah. All the lots in >> and even though they're smaller, they're still zoned >> because of because of the um history of
the Grove area where you are. And I don't know what your lot size is, but historically most of the lots in that area are undersized, but they predated zoning. Y >> they were laid out prior to zoning, so they're there, and we accept that. Mr.
Bailey is uh has his Oh, I I like the hand up there. Uh Mr. Bailey, can you speak again? And we'll try to put the microphone next to the computer. Is the speaker over here? Over here? >> I think it's over here. >> Okay, go ahead, Ed.
We don't hear you. Are you muted? We don't hear you at all. Even on Brian's laptop. >> I think he's looking for a place to talk. >> Did we switch anything? Um Brian, we do not hear you. Mr. Bailey,
>> what does that handheld up mean? He wants to talk. >> Oh, okay. >> We want you to talk. >> We'd like you to talk, Mr. Billy, >> but we are not hearing you. >> How about now? >> Yes. Whatever you just did was the right button.
>> Can you guys hear me now? >> Yes, we can, Ed. >> Your picture's frozen, but we hear your voice. So, go ahead. >> All right. So, I just wanted to speak to the lock coverage issue. So if they are already over the 16% which I would think they probably are based upon that space
there then it would no longer have to be a variance finding for the lock coverage uh overage once they've already gone over the our our limit. Then it would only be a finding that's similar to that case I had showed you guys um from up in
Brooklyn. >> Yes. >> Essentially once you've broken the law they say you can't break it again. you can just kind of do a finding on it. >> I remember that from the last meeting. >> Yes. So, it's that same idea. So, if
they're already over 16%, which again, I've got to assume everybody in the Grove is >> the House does it. >> Yeah. No problem. >> Yeah. Finding because you'd never be able to prove a hardship for a variance based on our traditional hardships.
>> Well, that's a that's a point. I don't know if I agree with that analysis, but I have to look at that because we've granted variances for lot coverage percentages before. >> And you could if if they were at 15%. >> Yeah. >> And then they went over to 16%. I would
absolutely say all day long that's a variance now because they hadn't broken our limit. But according to that case in Brooklyn, once you've gone over that limit, >> it falls under finding rather than >> back in the bottle. >> Yeah. Well, it's never clear whether we
need both a variance and a finding. I appreciate your uh your guidance there. I think we're I think we're going to have to request though a modification of the plan um and and suggest a continuence to the next meeting. Do you disagree with that
members to show the dimensions of the existing structures? >> Uh it's on there. >> Where are the dimensions? Oh, the existing structures, right? >> The existing completed structures.
>> I gota the the server. He said that everything that had a roof is um under the >> block coverage. >> Block coverage. So that includes the existing deck uh that cover deck. It
includes the metal geo. It also includes the new construction. >> Okay. But how are we going to say um lot coverage area to at a at a certain percentage if we don't know that percentage
without the without the existing metal gazebo I mean on the plan of record doesn't say it has to show >> right so what they're surveyor is saying is everything that has a roof is included totals up that all right
>> and if we're and take the metal gazebo away. First of all, the dimensions are supposed to be here so we can do the math too. >> Right. >> Right. And the gazebo is some percentage of that percentage. U I think we should see the existing building dimensions on
the plan. >> Fair enough. >> Do you disagree? Anybody? I'm asking both. Look, >> because this is this is a pretty big variance they're asking for and they're asking for it after the fact. I'd like
to know what the precise numbers are and it shouldn't be much of an effort for the engineer to add those dimensions to what's shown here which can be done before the next meeting and I'm going to suggest continuing it to the next meeting. I'm not comfortable with what
we have here. I would like to have all the information because of the way this developed. That's I guess what I'm saying. >> I wouldn't be opposed to that, Miss Chim. >> Mr. Bailey. Um, do you have any response to that?
>> No, I I don't think it's a bad idea at all because then again, I'm assuming we're going to find out that they were over 16 already, but now we can confirm it, >> right? >> And again, it's it wasn't this board or this office that put them in the situation we're in,
>> right? And you know, having an active and alert building commissioner is helpful. Um because these things shouldn't happen. Um I realize that no building commissioner can be in every location at every, you know, every week
to check. But um part of the issue, part of the problem is that the town has been short staffed for so long and um things come to light after the fact. So, we're trying to be fair here to the applicant as well as to the town and other other
applicants coming up. Um, >> yeah. And I mean, as a contractor, he he should know better. >> Well, is the applicant a contractor? >> I do believe so. >> Are you a contractor, sir? >> No, I'm Mike.
>> I'm sorry. >> We did not do the the work. We got a contractor for this job. >> Okay. Who who is the contractor? >> Williams contractor. >> What is what's the first part? >> Williams.
>> Okay. Thank you. Uh but still I mean you you got the contractor and the contractor did that. >> The take is we start with small deck, right? I try to just do a deck. >> Yeah. >> Just a deck. And I have the gazebo for for my kitchen, right? For outside
kitchen. But I I did a part of it that I see I I feel the gaze is not good enough for for support outside. You know what I mean? I say, "All right, I have my deck. I'm going to I'm going to do it." >> It grew and grew. >> Yeah, I get it.
>> And they got a big out my control. >> We're not saying because you did it by the wrong process that you're bad guys. We're not saying that. >> Here's what we'd like to see. And I think what we're going to vote is to continue this to the next meeting which is November 19th I believe.
>> Believe I can we can check that. Sorry you got your calendar on the same screen huh? >> Yep. 19th. >> You see it? Yeah. Okay. >> With the third week. >> Yep. And and we're going to ask um Sheret, have you ask Sheret to put on
this plan the size of the existing structures? >> You want >> the dimensions? >> Added dimensions to all of the existing structures. >> Like they did for the planned construction here. >> Just ask uh the existing structures, right? They were there before we even
bought the house. >> I know. >> And they're they're probably most definitely going to be over 60%. Are we fil? >> No. >> Well, we don't know. We don't We haven't discussed it yet. >> No, we're just trying to show the dimensions on the plan so that we can
say, well, gee, if you take away the gazebo and if we ask you to take away the gazebo as part of the deal, you know, that's going to reduce it to x square feet coverage or x percentage coverage. So, what we ask is that you show that Cherret show on the plan and
you could just have them add to that and resubmit it to us the dimensions of the existing shed, uh, the footprint of the the house and and existing cover deck and also the
dimensions of this existing metal gazbo. you know, it's x by x feet because we may say we'll do the variance, but we we do want you to get rid of the gazbo, which is not difficult to do obviously, but we
want to know the dimensions of that as well. So, everything shown here that goes into the 41% have them put the dimensions on the plan and resubmit the plan and we'll take it up at the next meeting. >> Uh, >> I think that's a fair way to proceed. uh to resubmit the plan. Would I have to
create a new application or >> No, you would just add it. >> Yeah, add it or >> I just call >> Yeah, you can call and if you need we can >> you can always email it to Mr. Carmichael, too. >> It'll be it'll be put in our packet so
that that'll be the plan we act on next time that has all the numbers on it and Sharet will understand what we're asking for. Uh, so all right. So I I'll ask him to get to the mention for everything that's on there that council covers and then we'll meet again in uh November
19th. He says >> 19th. Yeah. And well, we'll take a vote. Is that the wishes of the board as well? You comfortable with this? >> Yeah. >> I think that's fair to the applicant, fair to the town, and fair to us, you know, going forward so that we at least have clear uh numbers there and we can
we can jigsaw them around if we want to. And I don't know if we want to if it's just a movable existing metal shed, we may not want to put that in a decision anyway because I'm not sure that actually should go into coverage, you know,
because it's a movable thing. >> They could take it down. They could put it on its side tomorrow and then it's not part of the percentage. I just want to know what it is. Um, so all of that and sir, thank you for your input. Did you have any other questions last
question >> or observations? >> I do have one last question if it's even answerable. Is there a maximum number on the exist on the percentage that you can go up to? Is there such a thing?
>> There is in the bylaw and it's 16% of the total. >> No, no. I mean, if you grant the variance, is there a cut off? >> That's what we're talking about exactly. We want to know what that percentage is. We want to know what's represented on the plan.
>> But there's not a number cast in stone where it cannot go over this number even with the variance. >> No, >> that's a application by application. >> Yeah. >> Um decision. But like you know if
>> we grant a variance for this we might put it in the decision that the lot the coverage of of buildings including these permitted now permitted you know are x% and shall not exceed x%. We may put that in the decision because it's a crowded
lot at this point. >> Yeah. >> Has something like that ever been done before in terms of >> what? Yeah. >> You just said all the time. >> Sure. Well, you limit them from that point on. >> Well, because then it's clear if they want to another covered building,
they've got to come for another variance. That's exactly why we request that information. So, we know what we're approving if we approve it. >> So, that if they go to the building inspector and there's a decision on file that, well, you can't exceed 30 something% for lot coverage, you need a
variance >> or a bigger lot. >> Yes. and and it and it holds the applicant to whatever is on the plan of record, right? So they can't halfway through this and I don't mean you guys, but just the applicant
>> change their mind and go, "Hey, I want to make this 10 ft bigger and oh, it would really look better if it went, you know, >> then the building inspector would have power to enforce, you know, the plan, right?" >> Is there any language referencing hardships? What do you mean by is there a language
>> anything in writing that uh defines hardships >> for for >> the bylaw? >> Okay. So there is something somewhere in the I could reference for my own sake. Okay. >> Yep. >> Absolutely. >> And here I think you know we take the
applicant's word that these structures were there uh when they purchased the property. I mean, that's part of the hardship here that they didn't they didn't start at zero and >> mushroom up. >> You know, that's exactly why we want to know the dimensions of the buildings that are there now.
>> Now that they've come in the door and they're saying, >> "Here's what we got. Here's what we want to do." >> That's actually a really good point. >> We can have it on record. >> So, that's that's why we ask that plans be added to quite often, actually. Um
would you suggest that this a butter come to the next meeting or does it matter? this this Devon uh >> Galo >> where you had the question >> we published the uh >> yeah I know I did speak to receive notices I think we mail them out still
we do >> and it's up to abutters whether they want to come and be heard or attend remotely >> right >> u because we do that too um I don't see anybody else here besides u >> I personally like
>> I do I I take I mean I personally take in what the neighbors think because you're going to live with it not me >> right >> you know what I mean although I live in town I might not live right there >> it's not something that neighbors vote on correct you just you just want to hear their input if they have any
>> we take their input yeah >> we said is there anybody to speak in favor of or in opposition to >> what's here >> and you're not saying that you're opposed to it you're not saying that you're in favor of it you're just asking questions Yes, >> that's fine, too. >> Yeah. >> So, if the neighbor wants the abuter
wants to come, he's welcome to come and we would love to hear. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. >> All right. So, with all of that, is there a motion to continue this to the next hearing, next meeting, November 19?
We could say at 7 p.m., unless there's anything else scheduled yet? No, >> there is something. And then there's going to be we're going to discuss the next agenda item. >> Yeah. Okay. But is it is it scheduled for 7 p.m.? >> No.
>> Published. >> It's not timed. >> So we can say 7:00 p.m. for this applicant. >> Okay. >> Asking the applicant to have Sheret add the dimensions of each structure that is there on the property and to be
submitted to us before then. >> Yep. Is there a second to that motion? >> I'll make that motion and a second. >> Is there any discussion on that motion? I'll hear from the applicant. Yes, sir. >> Uh >> so that we're clear.
>> No. All right. So, currently we need the we need coverage, right? And then once we figure out if it's already over 16, then we're going to figure out like how to figure out like >> what we have to do about it
>> about that. >> Yeah. >> And uh after that point, do you know what else we need to what else we have to like talk about or >> we've we've identified the issues that came to us so far? I mean, if if the dimensions are given and they the guy
says, "Wait, this building is bigger than I had pictured it." We'll ask about that. But that's all we have at this point. So, we're asking you to just give us the dimensions of all the structures that are there. >> All right. >> And and we'll go from there cuz then we
can add them up and we can come up with >> Yep. Yep. Okay. >> And with the applicants agreement, we there's a motion and a second. Mr. Tenori, how do you vote? >> Yes. >> Sir, how do you vote? >> Yes. >> And Mr. Noel votes yes as well. We'll
continue this to November 19. be in touch if you have questions >> with Brian. >> Uh you want do you guys want like a video or pictures of uh any of the structures? >> You can submit whatever you want to submit. >> But is there anything that you guys
want? You guys need is there anything? >> Can't hurt. >> Yeah, it can't hurt to dump some photos to us of what's actually been done, but it I'm not requiring it. Do you want photos of just the the the
under construction uh shed or >> whatever you want to supply? >> Yeah, whatever you want to give us. Go ahead. >> We've already continued the hearing, so we actually shouldn't be >> further discussing it, but whatever you want to give us, just make sure it's what we asked for at least. And Sharette will know what we're talking about.
>> Yeah, we're just right now. >> Yeah. Okay. By next. >> Thank you. Thanks very much for your understanding and uh we'll we'll tackle this um next hearing. Okay. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> And thank you. Uh sir, >> thank you.
>> One question if I can just ask. >> Is it on this application? >> Yes. >> We we >> just in regards to the drawing, >> we've just continued it already, but go ahead. I will I'll let you ask. >> I want to know if those numbers would be available ahead of time like that sheet
was. >> Yeah, we we can we >> I'll present the application material when it does come in. So when they do get the revised edition, it will be in the dropbox for people to look at. >> Okay.
>> If you want to contact Mr. Carmichael, we can send it to you, too. We'll do that. Uh you're the you're in a butter who showed up. >> Uh notice go off in the mail. >> No, it's not renoticed. >> It's a continuation of this hearing,
>> but November 19th, it'll be an agenda. There'll be an agenda issued. I wrote it down. >> Sorry, >> he wrote it down when it was. >> Okay. >> But if you want to contact Mr. Carmichael, his email is available and
uh you you know he can send it to you when we get it as he will to us. >> Okay. >> Thanks. Okay. Moving on to the next item uh which is a continued item from the last meeting. Thank you.
Uh it's an application for variance for 49 island road. We had started this actually at a prior meeting and then um applicant asked us to continue it. He
was approaching the 100 day limit and we said before we can continue it beyond tonight we need a request. >> Yep. This is the somewhat jumbled request. >> I saw this. >> Did you see that already? Okay.
>> And so we have to decide is that a good enough request. I mean, I put the language right there. I said, you know, email us this. Um, they didn't, but I I'm good with that as a waiver of bylaw
section, whatever it is. Um, so that this we could vote tonight to continue it off also to November 19 at what did we say? When's the next done then? 710 or 7:15. >> We only have seven setups. So 7:05
>> 7:05 for this one. Sure. And u same parameters. So is there a motion to continue this application 49 island road to November 19th 705? >> I will make that motion, Mr. Chairman. >> Second. Okay. Any further discussion?
I'll only add that the email chain also explains that he's hired a new engineer or an engineer that's going to submit and they weren't able to get it done in time. Certainly no reason. >> Did I read that? They're also going to present it or did I misread that? >> The person that he hired is actually
going to present. >> Yes. To do a proper presentation of my request. It's on the bottom of the page. >> Oh, okay. Okay. >> Yeah. But what we're concerned with with the 100 day rule in the state law and the bylaw says we have to act we have to
open the hearing within 60 days or 65 days of an application being filed and then we have to make a decision within 35 days more at the 100 day mark. >> Yeah. >> If we don't the applicant can say huh you didn't act so I've got it. And
that's why council has advised we get a waiver in writing. And I had put I had put the language out there. I said, "Could you just give this back to us and, you know, sign it with an email signature, but they didn't." U they asked in a couple of emails. Yeah, I'm
okay with the board going over. Okay, I'll take that as good enough. Right. >> So, Mr. Tenori, how do you vote on the continuence? >> Yes. >> Nick Ferguson. >> Thank you. Nick, >> I was I was going to wait for him to say >> he's still getting used to you. I'm still
>> He was gonna call you. >> You're Dave. >> Yes. >> Dave's only been with us for three years and and Mr. Noel votes yes as well. So, this is continued as well. So, we have the two continuences to the November meeting. What else is on that agenda, Brian? And I know we have other business
tonight. >> General business. So, minutes and bills and stuff. >> Yeah. >> So, did you guys review that? What else is on the agenda for November though? What? Just previewing what what do we have coming in? Did you say there was another one?
>> Yes. I'm blanking on the address, but >> it's okay. I mean, is it one application? Is it three additional? >> It is one application. >> Okay, that's fine. >> Yeah. 111 Oak Street. >> Oh, I saw that in process actually.
>> Oh, I Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Um, so we have three items in November. That's the week before Thanksgiving, right? Yep. So, >> we'll want to hopefully brush up on those and be able to dispose of them
and with relative speed, not be here for 4 hours the week before Thanksgiving. Um, Brian, what else is u on the agenda? Minutes. And then you needed to talk to us about something. >> Yes. Um, I think it would be better if
it was after the beating bill. But >> okay. Well, let's do uh let's move on to the uh next item, which is uh business items, bills and warrants. Are there any? >> Nope. >> Meeting minutes.
Uh these were for the first six of 2025, I think. >> Yep. >> And um I printed them out if you want to see them. Have you? >> I've reviewed them. I'm comfortable with all. >> Okay. as is >> Mr. Ferguson, whose name I remember now,
>> was not here for any of those. So, he's not even going to >> take part in this. >> Um, I am comfortable with them. Um, >> should we deem them approved and we can ask Brian put them in final form and
send them and we'll I'll sign them? >> Yep. I'm comfortable with that. >> Okay. Um, I don't want a vote. >> I'll take a vote. It's just me and you. So >> motion to approve the minutes as submitted uh as to substance I'll put
the form a proper form and submitted before the next meeting or at the next meeting. >> So moved. >> Okay. Second. >> I Mr. Tenori and Mr. Noel are in favor. Thank you. Mr. Ferguson abstains because he has no idea what happened at those meetings.
>> Lucky him. >> Lucky him. >> Uh thank you Brian. Uh no bills to approve. those staples for $19 or Okay, >> planning board has the bigger budget, so they usually the ones that do those.
>> I um I have to apologize. I missed late September the uh bylaws review events that were going on. We were noticed for them. Did you attend? >> I did not because I was stuck at work. >> Y
>> I was hoping you would cuz I couldn't get there. I >> I I emailed I emailed you. That was the September 29th. Yeah. I was in South Carolina for work. >> Yep. Okay. I was um I was in and out the last two weeks of September. I was in Florida for a week. I don't remember the
exact days. I completely forgot about those meetings. I don't know if I was away or here. >> My son also gave birth to our first grandchild, which my head has been spinning afterwards. So, my apologies to Brian and actually to the planning board
because I did intend and to Paul DJeppy who's done so much work on this. I did plan to attend. I let everybody down because it >> I plan to attend too and I literally couldn't get here. >> It completely skipped my mind. Brian,
um, if we gear up for things like this, don't just hit me on the town email, which I know you have to hit me on, >> but do my personal email as well. >> Send a text >> or a text as to meeting reminders. >> Okay.
>> Yeah. Just Yeah. Hey, >> because I only sign on to the town email uh before meetings that I know about and remember and I hadn't for a couple of weeks there at the end of September because of all the things going on in personal life and that's what happened
to me and I feel I feel badly because I feel I let down you and Paul and the planning board. We had planned to take part and we didn't. Do you have an update as to where the bylaws vote stands? I mean presentation and all
>> for the select board and finance committee. They approved it along with the planning board. It is going to town meeting Monday if you are willing to attend and speak on it. >> It is this Monday. >> It is this Monday.
>> Coming up. >> Upcoming. Yes. >> I'm going to try to be present. I don't take responsibility in having drafted much of this. We all looked at them and we commented on them and um okayed them from our point of view. Yeah.
>> So I feel like I would like the zoning board to be there attending just >> I can't make Monday. >> Okay. >> I'm going to leave that one up to you, buddy. >> I believe I can. I would invite Nick to come if he would like as well. >> I can try. I'm pretty swamped at work
right now. >> Yeah. And I I have stuff going on, too. Are you going to be there? >> I have another board meeting. >> Is Paul there? I know Paul's going to be there. Um, and the board's going to be there for planning. >> I'm going to try to be there. >> Um, again, just cuz I feel responsible
for completely blowing up >> and I do believe it's 7:00 at the high school. >> Yeah, those are >> I might be able to go for a little bit. Oh, the but I'm not going to be there for the whole thing. >> Town meetings are tough for me. But >> the starter be uh and gym.
>> So, I have another board meeting at 8. >> Okay. unrelated to the town. >> Wow. >> So, >> I mean, I know we've are trying to push for it to go earlier. However, I don't
know if it would make 8:00, >> right? Got it. I mean, that's up to >> Yeah, it's at 8 >> hours that'd be and people who show up and all. >> Um, okay. >> Yeah, we'll see. I'll see what I can do. >> Thanks for letting us know about that.
And same All right. Um, we did the minutes. I wanted to ask about that process. Thank you for filling me in. And um,
we can close the meeting and talk. Is this a scheduling or a personnel type thing? If it's a business of the zoning board, you know, it's supposed to be brought up at a meeting after
notice. I'm I'm not let let let's end the meeting if if there's a motion to end the meeting. >> I'm not sure. That's why I was >> Okay. Is there a motion to end the meeting uh at 803? >> I'll make that motion. >> Second.
>> Okay. All those in favor? We've taken care of some items of business. All those in favor of closing the um the meeting >> I >> I >> I >> at 803. Say,