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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=DMMt_CvBbmE

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Um Gail Gail tip off is 8:30 you said. All right. Please stand for the flag. Hey. Hey. Just to play safe. >> Okay. United States nation indivisibley and justice for all.

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Thank you. Yeah. Please call the roll. Excused. >> Here >> Miss Tangora >> here. >> Turn that off. Dr. Marquesy >> excuse. >> Mr. Corbanic >> here. >> Commissioner Scorpelli

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>> here. >> Mr. [ __ ] Tendia >> here. >> Mayor Kelly >> excused. >> Mr. Kazira >> here. >> Mr. Contella >> here. >> Miss Ren Pucheski >> excused. >> Mr. Cudi >> here.

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>> Can you sit from your small town to the requirements of the open public meetings act notice of this meeting will be included in the annual notice of the regular meetings the year 2026 as advertised in the star ledger on February 5th 2026. The herald news and

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the nut sign on November 20th 2025 with a copy posted on nothing bulletin board for town hall. Copy is filed in the office of town to the clerk and copies are available to all members of the general public. Let the record show that

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Mr. Mana and Mayor Kelly have walked in choice doesn't matter >> and you can tell he'll sit for Dr. Marques. >> Okay, we got distributed earlier today. We have any discussion, any review?

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I'm sorry. What? >> Okay. >> I prefer to be marked. >> And you were excused. >> Okay, we'll make that change. Ready? >> I guess so. Me, too. >> Oh, you are you >> today?

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If you can turn your mics on, please. >> Turn your mics on. Otherwise you will park that >> not excused. Okay. So we'll make that change. Anybody who did not intend to mark is excused. Anything else? I hear a motion move.

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>> Second. All in favor? >> I. Thank you. >> Mr. Gerum. >> I have one bill for approval this evening. It's from Miss Santiseri for her attendance at preparation of meeting minutes for May 2020 2026 which were just concluded by the board. It's in the

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amount of $150 which I find to be fair and reasonable. You have a motion. All >> in favorions. Thank you. >> Is that it? That's it. So, um, regarding the, uh, 536 534

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Washington Avenue, uh, application before we lose the proponent property, um, I assume since there's no plans, new plans here for the 530 Franklin Avenue project, we're going to note,

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we're going to schedule the Washington Avenue uh, application for that date. Uh I would think it's probably going to be two hearings. So we'll kind of hold uh uh we'll sit July. It's the first, right? Yep. We'll hold July 1 for them

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in case it's necessary. Uh how many Barry how we handle this? It's been a long time and you're going to be giving us new plans. I think we should have to re notice today, right? >> Well, that's certainly within the discretion of the board. You know, there's two reasons for requiring the

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applicant notice. One is that uh uh it's substantially changed from what was originally proposed. We don't know that because you haven't seen anything. Although I would think you kind of guess where it's going based on the one day appearance that uh that were held. And

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the second thing is if you wait too long the application becomes stale and the people who may have had notice are not paying as much attention as they might. There might be new people who want to pay attention and not really aware what had been filed originally. So the board

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has the discretion at least with the chair to say uh you know at this point uh we will cancel the meeting for the 17th uh and tell them that they have to be noticed. You might want to wait till a little closer to the date because theoretically you could be ready in two

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weeks. Not likely. Uh and I think it's probably possible. I don't I don't think we're going to see anything. I know um it's a 10 10 business day window which is basically >> and and and I think you know the board's practice is you don't get a date until

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you file the plans. We have this application for Washington Avenue. They're getting a date because their plans were incomplete. >> Right. And this this next time around with 5:30 no date

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that seems to be better. >> We have plans for >> Yes. >> Washington. They were given out. I don't think Carol was there the night box. Oh, maybe last meeting. >> Yeah, I I don't have any must been the

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last meeting. >> It was the last. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Okay, we'll get the word out today. We'll get them out soon. Anybody else missing? >> Sorry, we'll have him delivered. >> So, as far as can we

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>> Well, tell them now. >> Yeah. communicate with what? >> Yeah, listen it I think board was rolling this over to give the opportent an opportunity to avoid those expenses and prime strengths. But you know it's

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it's a like I said there's two reasons. One we don't know what they're going to sign because they haven't and two it's a long time. Uh so I think that they have to expect I don't think they'll be surprised by that request.

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So I I'll I'll tell Dave to tell him that when it it does come in they're going to notice it. >> But you don't have >> anybody else missing plans for Washington Avenue for this pill.

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And regarding that application, we're we're scheduling as of now for the 17th. Obviously subject to u uh expert review and the applicant and the board getting the experts review time. So u be

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educated when we hear the application. >> So my job Any updates on uh what they said the uh removal of the offsite parking

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use at the last meeting right they have you guys or not you told me to Mr. Mayor, >> yes. The uh offsite parking being being added back out to the additional list that we sent out to it's only two weeks ago, but I figured I'd ask people.

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>> We haven't had a chance to discuss that. >> Okay. Were you on the last? >> No. What we did was um offsite parking where you can get a lease cover your parking obligation for whatever your use is, >> right? within 500 ft, you know, get a

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lease. >> Um that uh that ability is used to be on the conditional use list, which means it would have to come in front of us in front of us for us to approve. But now it's not on that list anymore. Back in 2024, they took it off for whatever

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reason. Um so now if we have to uh buy a building, build a building and something where he's short five spaces. If he gets a leash from his neighbor next door, all he has to do is give it to Dave and Park. >> Yeah.

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>> So, all we want to do is put it on uh additional use list. So, it's back in our hands. >> Sure. >> Okay. We did talk about that. >> Yeah. >> Oh, we did. We >> Well, we haven't we haven't talked about it with >> the board.

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>> Okay. So, we found just a couple of workshop things. Um, first of all, Jerry guys, I believe it's the study. Okay. Well, we'll we'll send it out with the finalizer, but Terry uh did a great

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job together Washington Avenue uh land use study. Um we just have a couple of weeks to go and then we're going to send it out for an RF. Uh it's going to be uh just doing a study on potential uh uses to protect ourselves from

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from coming into Canada. You might not think it's necessary or appropriate uh from the border to brand >> and it's also going to include the proponent was the proponent property and uh abundant life right?

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>> Yes. And abundant life. U so we're basically going to for somebody to come give us we'll study do a quick study give us an idea what they want very simple call ideas they have and we'll choose a a contractor and uh see who

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comes up >> to pick No, no. Oh, you do the study. Yeah. Yeah. My person is talking about develop. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no. >> The the I assume it's a planner does the

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study. I they they make pres. Yes. Exactly. >> You pick which one we want. >> Yeah. Exactly. And by the way, I've already uh introduced John uh Bruno to the concept that was going to be doing that. He said, "Get get him that proposal as soon as it's approved."

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Okay. >> I I I you I thought you said it to >> I got it with an email of somebody with a bunch of attachments, right? It included a chapter 700 zoning, the noise ordinance, the parking ordinance, and

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>> was it updated after that? >> I'm trying to find I can't find it. Maybe maybe everybody else. >> Yeah, that's it. >> Maybe I sent it to you. >> All right, good. So hopefully you had a chance to read it.

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Uh that's something about anybody has anybody's read any notes or any observations any suggest the idea is for us to look at the section of Washington Avenue from Grant pretty much all the way to Belfo to see what's our

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exposure there. You know, we're we're a long-term visionary group, right? So, is Viola's going to sell in 20 years or 50 years? And what's going to happen to that property? Also at the street, you know, Abundant Life, are they going to sell 5, 10, 20, 30 years from now? What's that property going to look like?

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So, I if uh we evaluate and we're calling it an evaluation, not a plan. You know, we don't want anybody to come out any public to think, you know, we have some program that we're going to implement. We're just trying to see, you know, what's what's the as of right? What's our exposures now as of right?

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What's the development community now interested in if these properties were to be available? What might uh developers or people be interested in doing there? And would we like that or or would we not like that? If there's any changes we think we would like to

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see, any uses we definitely don't want anymore. you know, I think in the M M0, we still allow bowling alleys and refineries or whatever. Remember that one application we had? So, you know, we should look at these things uh for the

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long term. That's and it's not >> it's not a redevelopment plan. It's not a study. It's not a programming issue. You know, you know, we were concerned that we didn't want the public to perceive that we were moving ahead with something and we know something that no something that no one else knows. Just

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taking a snapshot. Here's our exposure. Is it what we like or want? If not, what do we need to do to make changes? >> That's good. >> So, if anybody has any ideas or suggestions, chime in. If you don't have anything,

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something comes up, you know, in the next couple days, please send an email because I would assume this will be sent to John um by Friday or Monday. Any delays? Okay. We'll send we'll send back. Do you know when we did the last master

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we did? >> 2012. >> 2012. >> That's we did a reexam. >> We did a re-examin recent 18. >> I forget. Hang on. Let's not guess. >> Okay. Let's see. >> 2022 re-examination here.

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>> What can I have fun? The original master plan was 74. There was re-exams in 82, 86, 91, 203, 209. >> We updated it in 2012 and re-examined it in 2022. Your honor,

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>> so let me let me interject because this has been raised. I was going to save some of this for the return, but since we're here, we may as well talk about it. When we met the other day with the mayor, one of the questions came up is, you know, we haven't we done a master plan since 2012, even though we did a reexamination.

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Uh it's time to start looking at doing that. Uh so, uh we should start thinking about that and what we want to look things have changed a lot since 2012 obviously for for was going on in 2012. >> Yeah. I mean so much has happened with

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the entree campus and and around the town. So uh the master plan needs and new fresh and in addition to which all these new uses of properties throughout New Jersey have to be considered and

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addressed. So, uh I think uh maybe you you want to have a committee that starts as a task force to start assembling what you want to go into that and then we'll we'll we'll have to decide on an RFP for a planner for that. Uh obviously we know

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Paul already the existing master plan. Uh but he he he acquired our the uh the redo after having worked on it as a assistant way way back and then he succeeded on that our planet since. Uh

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so uh you could certainly be one of the people who takes a look at it. You might want to consider other options as well. But I think your startup should start with with putting together what you think should go in there, what should be addressed, what uses should be addressed, uh, and what issues are being

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addressed. We have addressed a lot at the board over the many past years that some of these things have been adopted. Maybe a fresh look at some of the things that have been adopted and uh, expand upon. So,

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>> but I'll leave that up to you. redid the mask for. Yes, I completely agree. >> Yes. >> Isn't it only substiting off? Oh, we did that last time. Let's do it this time. You really do have to take

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a good there's a lot of back master plan because yeah >> and I read I'm probably the only human being in town to read that thing from cover to cover. I I don't think I read >> it's like read 75% of them

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>> and it was during a shower thing or something. Okay. Okay. Um, so we'll get that's a good idea. We'll get I'll put something together and we can see how we um we have a we have a copy of the of the

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noise ordinance. That noise ordinance is the model noise ordinance that's basically certified by by the New Jersey uh ED. Um I've read it. I've read it again today just to familiarize myself. um if we put this up u consideration

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uh basically if you do it word for word you just have to send it to the PB and they'll give you an approval if you don't if you want to change it then then they have to review what the changes look but the reason why I think this is something to consider is if you know the pens of the data center coming um who

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knows in the next year or two years whatever it's going to be um you pay attention and you talk to people the biggest one of the biggest concerns is the noise and of course the power drain which

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solve that is important that application you're not familiar with the strange work supposedly I'm still learning about these things we need a lot of work for cooling was that something that an issue for us and how >> yes

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the short answer is yes we're As far as our water allocation, we're just about maxed out. Um depending on the uh and the way it's

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you know u it could potentially use a lot of and at that point um you know some of these these issues especially some of the governor's proposed are going all those

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e so say you need to go more water that on the person who's developing the data center like applying for a TWWA development developer and negotiate for

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behalf of the applicant. They have to my opinion now. >> Joe, what's her legal authority for that? And I mean, there's like three or four things that she came up with. I know she just announced

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>> I mean I was trying to figure that out for myself, you know. I know she made this announcement and uh sort of like an executive order if I understand it. So I guess it has the unless it's followed up with legislation. >> Yeah. Well, that's quite possible. >> Yeah. Um

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you know these are certainly things I think that you know we develop created or even without part of this own once again it's pay attention.

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>> Oh yeah. Tell me. So, it's only say more to do some warehouse I don't know if we go as far as to look at taxing on the system itself is part

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of the engineering review >> yeah but we never as a body don't impose things we put things. >> Oh, sorry. >> Yeah. In the big scheme of things, don't use

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water. >> No. No. >> Even, you know, not going to use enough water a day to to be something we need to get certified, but something using

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water constantly and it's evaporating and you know even if it's being reused it may they evaporate in such a way that it continues to use a lot of water every day 24 hours and you know

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if that application ever comes in front of us engineering the research report from the department we deem it as an issue we'll have to address it on >> application. Can you remind me to ask that question when it happens? >> I absolutely this works perfect.

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>> So active water is a function of the type of air condition. >> It might not be as bad as everybody thinks. I I think the uh water usage is a function of the type of cooling system they designed for the building. You know, if they have um a certain type of

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air conditioning where you have rooftop units that uh evaporate, spray water to to change the temperature, they could use water. But if it's a clo type of closed system, and I'm no expert, um I'm not so sure the water is a big issue.

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But, you know, we got to look at each each and every application. big AI data centers. Water is an issue. It >> is. It is. That's how they do it. >> But they're acqu >> Yeah. This is not a big one. >> No. And not relatively.

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>> I get that. >> But then >> just just as cautionary, they the public is now, you know, keenly aware Oh, yeah. of of people like in South Jersey and Texas and that are

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fighting these things, right? >> But they're huge >> compared to anything that can be built on that site. Yeah. >> So, you know, it all get gets lumped into this, >> you know, they're no good. >> And I think you just have to look at it

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>> even though we still thinking about the rest of what >> study >> study. >> Thank you. because we still have probably still need to >> Oh, yeah. Definitely. >> Yeah, we will.

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>> Who knows? Some AI company may be negotiating with them right now about buying their properties. We don't know. >> Yeah, I think you have to worry about it. >> Well, I will say we've heard of it, but >> data center is worried of Yeah.

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something that was on everybody's uh radar, right? That either a a approved use or a uh prohibited just wasn't >> but now

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very top of Yeah. But regarding Washington Avenue, most of that area is B4 if I'm not stay with you. And even though it we don't have a data center as a prohibited use in any specific zone, we this is a situation where if we say

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if it's not listed, you can't do it. Well, the company wants to build the data center with the abundant life has the pockets of fighting. Well, that's a fight we're going to lose. >> So, we we border a lot of towns that may have land as open. >> Of course, it has. >> Yes. So, aren't we part of the same

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water system as Clifton or we're independent from everyone? John, >> you each each town has their own independent water utility. So, you get alloc water allocation. >> Right. Right.

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>> You know, so we're at $3 million about three million gallons a day. >> But don't they sources all come from a few >> Yeah. Well, it's um gota I gota gotta be careful how I say want me to turn off the mic.

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>> Water water is very unique uh commodity in that there's not like there's not three million gallons a day that's allocated for knowledge. Even though we have $3 million gallons that

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are allocated, that's just what we pay for. It's constantly flowing. So we may use more one day, a little less. So it's an average and that doesn't mean it's not available because it's flowing. Just means we haven't paid for it. So in

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order to get a bigger allocation, you have to go to one of the water you commissions or purveyors and say we need four million gallons. Oh, that's going to cost you more money. It's not going to change anything with our

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infrastructure. It's just something you have to pay for. >> It's a commodity like you said. So this all started based on um noise or the noise or and water >> which is important in in a data set.

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>> That's is right. Right. Well, the reason this whole thing came up, if you remember, we had a a sound expert for the innovation center. Mueller was his last name. >> He was great. >> He was great. and uh he implied that our

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our uh as respectfully as possible, he implied that our noise ordinance is somewhat lacking and he told me and and Barry about this and he sent it and uh I think this is something we should look into adopting uh because

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we don't know what's going on with that data center. We don't know how close it is. We don't know if if um somebody else is looking at maybe Nvidia is looking to buy Abundant Life to put a data center there. We don't know that. They sure have the money, you know. Uh my my recommendation is adopt this because

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it's it is one of the rare times I will say we get something out of Trenton. >> Yeah. >> That that is really a turnkey. >> It really is. >> They really did a good job on this. And I think when we had that hearing, I pointed out why this is so important and

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why we're so deficient because this is what you want to use. And you know, if you don't adopt this, it's not the benchmark for the developers to meet. So you have this like, oh, it's are you whispering? Is that okay? That's a terrible standard. You know, it's a terrible >> It's like a It's It's as loud as

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somebody being on a deck talking. Well, that's >> exactly like it's like talking to your kid. You're too loud tonight. Are you not too loud tonight? >> I called up the was a while ago and I asked him said there's a chore in there somewhere. Give me an example of what 65 dB is.

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>> And I think he he said if you smash your hand on a table really loud like something like that maybe maybe a little louder than that but he couldn't get real detail but they measure it. And the key is if we do get a data center or anything else that might be noisy once

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the deal once the thing is done and it comes for a CEO the sound expert goes there he takes his readings and if they pass they pass it they don't they have to do something to muffle the noise that's basically >> and this sets the standard >> and this sets the standard

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>> always such subjective things I'm kind of the things that bother you guys but Will this uh affect us having witnesses if we have a swollen date like this?

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>> I actually I think it probably affects you in in the following way. Any applicant who comes in is going to have to meet the standards that are in the or in this ordinance if it gets adopted. So they are going to >> you could you you you could you could

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make that determination. You you listen to their expert and say he or she's done a good job. They meet the standards. we're okay because the standards are good. They're meeting them. That's and that's what we want. >> Uh if you have any doubt about it or the technology or the building itself raises

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a question, you get your expert in to say test it out. This >> it doesn't limit us. >> And remember remember with noise. >> No, no, it definitely doesn't limit. Remember with noise and this has been the case with all even with the experts. This gets reviewed again when the

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project's built because this is still very subjective. It's it's theoretical. Okay. It's the ordinance gives you the standard. They say we're going to meet it. Our expert says it looks like you're going to meet it, but it's all of them are required to test afterwards to see if they meet the ordinance. And if they

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don't, this board and the town have a right to go back and revisit the the application. that a given bar that >> that's Yeah, they they they all say the same thing and it's in our resolutions when we adopt them. >> I always put that in there that you have

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an opportunity to go back and and check to see if they've met it. You know, that's one of the areas where you have to check and make sure it matches. So, yep. >> Thank AI. A typical residential gas lawn mower generates

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There you go. Well, you got to >> That's why That's why I don't like landscapers around my house on a Sunday. >> He says they're too loud. That's his favorite. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely too loud. I'm stood in my backyard on a Sunday afternoon. I don't want to hear that. >> So, why don't you put this to a vote so I can say the board recommend.

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>> Okay. Um, so I'm going to uh make make a motion that we adopt uh the excuse me, model noise control ordinance uh set by the uh New Jersey D uh as written and sent up to the commissioners for

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consideration to add to our zone. >> Second. >> You have a second. Santa Siri, call the RO, please. >> Yes. >> Mr. Smith. Miss Tangor, >> yes. >> Commissioner Scarpelli,

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>> yes. >> Mr. [ __ ] Tandia, >> yes. >> Mayor Kelly, >> yes. >> Mr. Contella, >> yes. >> Mr. Okudi, >> yes.

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Thanks. >> Um, another one real quick. Um, we talked about the the parking um requirements. We discussed about uh having retail stores and restaurants not being required to have any parking and not allow the the goal for this

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conversation is to limit what we spoke about earlier uh about having a a developer be able to lease out spaces for their to meet their requirement. I my my position is the only time the only use that that should be allowed is

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office space uh doctor's offices etc. Uh because if if it's there if it's the doctor and his four employees, they get there at 9:00 in the morning at 5:00 at night, they're gone. So if they have to so if they want to get a lease two

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blocks away for their parking, if they need to, they could. Um it also I was thinking about this today. Let's take Luna, the guy who bought Luna. um he wants to put a uh Mediterranean restaurant in there, but what if he wanted to put a second floor and and

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maybe put three or four apartments or a second and third floor uh following the standards of the development agreement that he's a part of being in that section of town, he wouldn't have to have the burden of having allocating uh parking spaces for his

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restaurant. he can always he can be able to make sure he has enough parking for his residents because I don't think I don't think that a developer should be able to get off-site parking for people who live in his building because if you live there you should have you should have whatever the requirement is to >> let's let's make it a little uh let's

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not make it as specific as that let's make it like for you know a a um example so something that may come >> specific of a of a of a like a restaurant but not being that specific >> that specific Well, my what my what I

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what I put was any business any business that depends on customer foot traffic. >> So So Dave was saying that a restaurant requires so many spots per >> seats. One spot for 10 seats. >> And we didn't recommend that we should

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eliminate that, right? >> We haven't done that yet. >> Okay. >> No. >> But you don't think we should? >> No. >> Not. >> But Okay. So, I'm going to put my businessman cap on. All right. If I want to buy a building in Nutley and build a building and I want to put a and I just

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want to put a restaurant there and I want my I want my uh and it's got 100 seats. >> Oh, >> and there's no parking. If I do the restaurant with 100 seats, that's a business decision that I make, right? >> The town's not making me do it. I'm

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doing it because I [ __ ] you. >> No, but but you're impacting on the parking in the neighborhood that it's not just what you're deciding as a businessman. That's great. But it has a ripple effect whenever you throw throw a a development pebble in the pond. There's a ripple. >> So because so then we talked about

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enclosure and some of the spillover that we had there which was unfortunate. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Right. So um and then so so say there's an existing business right that has existing parking

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and we eliminate that and they said okay now we don't need that parking and now we're going to put residential above our and use the parking for for that. That could be an issue. >> Well would use up more parking. It'll be

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an issue for the customers that want to go to the restaurant or the or the widget store >> or the neighbors >> or you know so so they're going to use the existing parking that >> that they had to have when they opened up right so they had to have that parking now they're going to say well I

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don't need that anymore and I can use that to put residential above my and use that park >> but they still have a need for parking the same need is it's it isn't go it hasn't gone down >> they need it for the customers So to use the neighborhood parking space, >> what if he wants to expand the size of

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the footprint of the restaurant into that parking? Right. Right. >> Same kind of I'm I'm you know I think that I'd like to understand what Hoboka does. You can't have you know you if you got a good restaurant people are going to

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park. They're going to find a place to park and if they neighbor they're going to walk a couple extra blocks. >> Look at Montlair. people park in that park to go to go to Zuma or Forbo. Yeah. You know, are we are we uh you know scaring away potential businesses

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because of >> you know our requirement for them to provide parking >> just don't you think the businesses wish they had parking? >> Yeah, >> sure.

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>> But they're still a thriving business also. Obviously, >> you you you got to make sure that the agreement for off-site parking is with the property owner, not the business. A lot of these businesses rent these buildings and you know, they don't own the building.

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>> Well, that that that's in our order, >> but the property owner has to agree to it. >> If I want to if I need to lease parking for whatever my use is, I have to lease it from the property owner. You can't lease it from another tenant of that of that piece of property. What the problem, this also started because we

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started talking about it is because a lot of times what ends up happening is the guy never pays and the guy who has the who leased him the the uh the parking space now you can't park there anymore. They rip it up and now there if you have a restaurant that requires 10

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spots and you only have five. You lease from two doors away. The guy never pays. You don't have those five spots anyway. They're not there because you can't use them. But it's not our job to police whether or not somebody's paying for something. >> Correct.

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>> Well, it's in the resolution for that approval that he has he asked for. >> I know that. >> Yeah. The problem. >> So, what does Dave do? Shut the restaurant down. >> My you my words to the tea. Yeah. What are you going to do? Even if even if you

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go there and let's say I'm the guy who needs to the the the spots and I call the code enforcement and said I just up the thing he's not paying. What are you going to do? You got a guy that's been in business for six months, a year, making a lot of money. Everybody loves going there. You're gonna shut him down. It's never gonna happen. It's That's not the right That's That's not So, you have

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to correct it, Dan. >> Yeah. Right. Some of you don't have yet. We have that where you know we have a business that leased

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spots in condition was for them to lease 13 spots in the municipal >> from the town. Right. From the town >> and for 10 years everything was very good. New owners don't pay owe you money.

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Right. It's We why do we have to pay? We didn't know that. It didn't tell us that when we bought the building. >> So really, as a township, what you could do is put a lean on something. >> Well, you could enforce it. You could

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you could get damages or shut them down, but those are options you have. You don't want to do them something, but those are options. >> I'm I'm just trying to limit. >> So So I think those things we have to think about because I don't think those those are good practices.

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>> Yeah. I I think I think that Again, with the only exception being offices because it's only a part-time uh attendance, I think that we should limit the ability to be parking for uh shortear uses and

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by and by making it not no parking required for a retail store, it eases that they get to make decision on what they want to do. But what I was gonna because we were going back and forth on this today and we did it two weeks ago and I did it with myself this afternoon

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as a matter of fact and I'm thinking maybe I should send something to Paul and maybe he could do a little research and see what other towns do and we can come up with something because let's face it what we have now just it doesn't work doesn't it works until the ink is dry on their resolution and then you

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you're done. >> Something wrong with seeing what other people do. >> Yeah. But I just think I I think if you know if you don't disagree with me that's okay. But I think what we have now is insufficient and I think we need to figure out the best way to make it as efficient as possible.

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>> Should I think Jerry mentioned should it be limited to a certain size business or restaurant or use? Um >> well we did last week or after last meeting we did uh talk about um percentage of of of your requirement.

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So, let's say you need 10. You can only you can you have to have 60% say on your property and you can only only lease the door. I mean, we could do it that way. >> Are you still talking about residences now? >> No, I don't think any I don't think I

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don't think anybody should be able to lease out uh parking for somebody who lives in their building. I think if you live in the >> you're talking about residents, >> right? The residents of the building if it's a if it's a if it's some kind of residential or mixed use, they have to have parking. Now, if after they satisfy

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that parking, if they need 10 more and they only have four more, then then they have the possibility and it depends on use. If it's a if it's an office, something like that. So I mean if anybody had any other suggestions on how we can take a look at this or other

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resources other than Paul I can reach out to all it is perfect. Okay Paul I thought about that today I thought maybe at least maybe give us a little insight.

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Okay. Yeah, >> you're fine. Cuz I only got uh one other thing. Little attorney review. Um they started an hour early and the links are down by 30. Um

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>> we got a couple more. >> Well, the next thing Well, we did the Washington study, we did the parking versions, we did the North. Next is we are setting up a tour of the Diamond Springs. Uh oh, great. Development. >> Okay. Wrote to Dave. He basically all he

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needs a day or two to set it up. He said the guy's the guy has asked him if anybody wants to come and take a look. So, he's eager to show show his work. Uh so, what I need to know is obviously if you go there, there can't be more than four of us at one time. The ones we have a a sunshine issue. Uh so, I need you to

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let me know. Um it doesn't have to be right now. if you're interested in doing it and uh I'll figure out somehow between me and Dave, we'll figure out uh when we can do it and it's probably take a couple hours at the most. I we sometime during the day. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what you guys

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schedu but if you're interested, let me know. Maybe uh why don't you find out what what they what they would offer us like you know Monday, Wednesday, whatever day it was going to be in a time and then see how many people can sign up and then do it again. We'll try to get everybody. I'll reach this way.

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I'll reach out to David. This way you can maybe knock off. >> Is anybody Is anybody interested in taking a tour? >> I'm interested, but I cannot do it from the 13th to the 18th. >> Okay. >> Because I'll be left. >> Okay. Okay. >> I think it can be done more than one time. >> Well, look, if six if six of us want to

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do it, we got to do it at least twice. >> Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, we'll keep and you know, but it doesn't have to be done tomorrow. You're not turning the key on the place. You're not filling the pool tomorrow. So, you know, I think it will be so rental.

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I don't think they have them yet. >> Might want to check to make sure it's far enough along where it's worth seeing the interiors and stuff. >> You don't have the shades up yet. >> All the good stuff's underground already.

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Now we have the left. >> Okay. What is the last? This is the fence. >> Yeah, the fence. Uh >> oh. I forgot about that. >> I forgot. >> Okay. Well, we talked about this about um the require the uh requirement of a

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uh a resident who wants to put up a sixoot solid fence uh in their backyard, backyard area only, they need the consent of their adjacent neighbors, the bath neighbor and the side neighbor. Now, if you recall when this was discussed, >> I think we're the only township in the

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state of New Jersey that has this neighborhood veto concept. Okay. So, >> where it came from. >> That's a good one. We should we should keep it in. >> Well, >> I've seen other towns. I've seen other towns. Apparently, apparently uh Chica

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probably looked at it and >> I worked in um in uh it was uh Mawa area >> originally. >> No, no, going back a few more years. Mwa area and someone was putting in a pool

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and the pool encroachment was one foot too close to the fence. The concept is the same though. >> No, different very different. No, no, but you the defense doesn't particularly appeal to the other person. The neighbor sued that made him cut the pool. But I'm

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saying if you allow someone just to do whatever they want on that property line, >> we already have regulations on this. This is this is giving your neighborhood. >> All right. So then, okay, >> it's really you're in compliance with

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everything except you give this last uh minute, you know, show. So she what happens if the neighbor says no >> then you go to affirm board say there's >> well maybe when it sets when it sets up

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practice a conflict in the neighborhood people don't buy okay I can tell you my my wife doesn't like fences she you know when somebody goes to put up fence you're putting up a fence you can't run through the backyards like I did when I was a

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kid She's right. They did. But I I would love to see your wife. >> She could. But the point is a kid, you know, culturally like fences. Okay. And I remember when my neighbor on side was putting up the fence started, oh, they're putting up a

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fence. They said, "Well, you see what it looks like here. How do you know you're not going to like it?" As it turns out, it's not such a bad thing at the end of the day for me. Less >> guy would put pressure right there on that vote for right now. No, it's the rear fence.

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>> That's not every rear fence, right? Just solid six >> six foot solid fence, which is allowed, >> right? It's allowed to get permission from your neighbor. Yeah. Your neighbor doesn't give you permission, then you got an all zone board. >> So, it's if it's 50% secret.

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>> Yeah. >> And you don't need permission. >> Only if it's a solid. But, but it's interesting when you think about it. the town says it's okay to have that kind of fence. It's okay to have that kind of offense everywhere, but your neighbors

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are telling you no and then you have to go through the additional step of digging the variance and dealing with it there. And I guess most of the times or many of the times it gets granted after the expense of the hearing and the time consumption of a hearing.

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I'm more concerned about impact on the neighborhood problems. I mean up and I know one of my neighbors had it not long ago and I know another one's about to have the same problem. So why is that such a great idea

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to have you think eliminating it makes better neighbors? I think it just makes neighbors be pissed off at each other. >> No wind up with the same fence. >> Same >> except you don't go through a variance. No, no, but I'm saying if you say I want to put up a stock fence, a stock paid

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fence, solid fence on regardless of what you think. You think that it's going to make you any happier than if you had an an objection to it? >> Yeah. If you put up the fence, you don't have to go get a variance. >> No, but you the uh the neighbor that doesn't like it. >> Well, they're not going to like it

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anyway because it's going to go up. So, the question is why do you put somebody through the burden of the expense of >> they should talk to their neighbors? But you just want to say >> I think it makes them talk to the neighbors like Walt's saying and says hey look do you mind and then otherwise it's like I don't care what you think

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>> talk you're right they should talk but should somebody have a detail >> if I neighbor tried to put a solid pit back there I throw fit and I tear this thing down >> I will say >> if they want a a buck they came plant in Cyprus in three years they won't be able

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to see even the house well >> let me tell you something I'm 100% I don't think a solid fish should be allowed. I think you should I think you should put a nice fence that's that's close enough to squindle close enough can't get out and then put uh arborites

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around for your privacy. That's what I think but that that's doesn't exist. >> You should talk to your neighbors before you put a sixoot barrier between the two of you. Right. >> And I haven't done that. >> Well, it's really I mean is there a place to be?

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We always pride oursel being different. >> Nothing wrong with that. >> I mean after a while we start looking like >> after a while looking like they own creates barriers. more political down and down down and

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you get what she >> you're going to create too many problems. >> Yeah, I would I would change the [ __ ] what I just said. That's not going to happen. Um >> I'll pay half. Can you go in half with the guy? >> Why not? >> Yeah. Do you do you think the >> Do you know how many times I've had this conversation in the 20 plus years I've

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been sitting here? Yeah, right. >> You think the penalty would discourage some people from putting up the six foot? >> I know some people would not want to go for a barrier. I don't think >> and then they would consider >> I don't know what they >> without without that penalty solid

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fences. >> One thing we did talk about though was um the material that's used. >> Yes. uh rather than the big white solid six foot vinyl fence. Uh you know, something that's a little bit more like a composite fence, something that's a

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little bit more aesthetic and pleasing. If we can make that part of the neighborhood, >> I did did read something about, you know, solid fences do impede wind. Neighbors enjoy the breeze coming through their yard, things like that.

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So, going back to a noise ordinance, I think the fence ordinance study of it. I don't >> Yeah, there is. I read something about purposely tonight because I knew this solid fence was coming up, but I did read and I don't remember if I brought it with me that, you know, there are certain factors like noise that affect

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your neighbor. So, breeze was one of them, the ability to have, you know, air move across your neighbor's property. So, >> tied into the yard.

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>> My yard. so deep I wouldn't care if they erected the Taj Mahal back. But but if your if your backyard happens to be 15 feet away from your house with reform 30

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>> well the the the one that came up most recently I can tell you the outcome the outcome was that defense got approved but the neighbor who was putting up the fence worked it out so they put Barbara Bidy on the other side for the neighbor and they were happy. Oh yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, the Biden took care of the issue of what? It's not going to look like a

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white fence. It's going to look like >> sometimes you need a fence if you're next to something so unsightly. >> Well, what about a big scary dog? >> Yeah, the people putting up the fence did have a dog and that was one of the reasons for putting up. So, but the bottom line is they worked it out and

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put up the arbory and everything seemed to be smooth after that. >> But when you boil it all down, >> this is what we have. We have I have a piece of property. I want to put a six foot solid fence in my backyard area. My neighbor on this side says yes. My neighbor on this side says no. My

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neighbor behind me, I'm sorry, says yes. My neighbor behind me says no. I got to go to to the zoning board. 99 times out of 100, you get a variance. And a month later, if that fence that that my back neighbor didn't want is there anyway. >> So he had a backyard neighbor to hate

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you. >> Yeah. But he would have said no anyway. >> Yeah. But it brings the conversation up. >> Say, "I don't like that fence." So now you put it in my backyard. >> That's what you're doing. >> Yeah. That starts the conversation of negotiating something.

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>> If you don't have it, >> that fence is up. >> I think I'm glad you said that because that brings back you brought this up at the last meeting. >> This is about they could more >> How do you do that? I don't know. an

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attorney that I knew but I don't want you once >> I have a white property >> I guess you know if you on your property right so now if I don't like it I put up a

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>> I can plant bushes I could put up a different kind of fence >> so I have to look at your fence >> yeah and if if let's just say you live behind me and you I I'm doing it because I have a a dog and I have kids. So, I want my kids to be in my dog to be safe in my backyard. Well, if the guy behind

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me who said no has a dog, too, I just solve his problem. >> Is is a corner lot different for a rear yard? >> Yeah, totally different. They're a nightmare anyway. It's like >> Yeah, with fences. I know. So, this doesn't affect two property besides

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>> one of those neighbors that put up this >> Did you get permission? >> Is it six foot? I I did. He wasn't happy with it. >> Is it 6 foot? >> So you lost a boat, too. >> Yeah. Quick story. So I I moved into my house.

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This is many, many years. No offense. And my two neighbors that were there for many years, they would walk back and forth through my yard. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And my wife was like, "These guys walk through the yard all day long cuz I'm

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uncomfortable. I can't even keep the blinds in the back door open, right? So I said, "Listen, you just moved into the neighborhood. You got to be a good neighbor. You don't put them." So I was like, "A year later, there were these hedges that covered part of the

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guy's garage." And he had built an extension onto the edge of the garage so he could pull his car, his big Lincoln in and fit. So they had this ugly cinder block and there were these hedges that covered it so you couldn't see it from my yard.

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So one day he says, "I'm going to trim your hedges. Would you mind?" I go, "You can trim my hedges?" He said, "Knock yourself out." Right? My wife calls me up says, "You trim the hedges. There are stubs." I go, "Come on. He cut them this boy."

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>> Wow. >> So he wasn't specific. >> No. And so the next week a fence. >> Give me a fence. >> Absolutely. >> I I don't want to see his ugly garage. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Well, that's as Daryl mentioned,

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sometimes it's it's what you're looking at your neighbor's property. >> Yeah. >> You're asking for a six foot high solid fence. >> So, after I put the fence up, the the uh the whack comes over to me and was nasty. Really nasty.

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She says, "I I can't believe you put up a fence." And I said, "I can't believe you cut down my edge." >> And and she said, "Well, what about if I would have done something really bad?" I just looked at her. So, >> are they still there?

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>> Yes. >> I was young and >> definitely young. Yeah, I was, you know, I was uh >> 20 26 years old. >> My neighbor not only asked me if I would mind if they put a fence up, he asked if

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they could use my property to access, >> you know. And I said, "Yes, sure. Go ahead." >> Well, you're trying to >> Is it a stockave fence, Carol? No. >> I I have the problem with the whiteness of a fence that's that big.

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>> I like the white. So I think that's what I was saying is that now we have different fences. Right. Years ago 6 foot fence was a stockate fence. >> Yes. >> Board on board. >> And now we have these white vinyl fences

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and they're almost just as big as the old stock. >> Pretty stark. >> No, they're so sterile. And a lot of times they get >> they get green. >> They get green. Exactly. Oh yeah. >> If you're on a low side, say you and your neighbor say there's a two foot

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Well, what I was thinking was um is there a way that you could give a list of approved fences? I think you >> I'm looking through Frank Graziano's memo right now um to see how many they approve if if it's

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you know maybe maybe it's not an issue. Maybe we think >> it's an issue because this all started because of the joint meeting. >> Oh, is that where it came out of? Oh, >> it did. >> Yeah. The issue is that >> Yeah, cuz Johnny's on the board. >> Yeah, go figure.

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>> They had this typically one of the longest application for zoning board. >> Yeah. >> Right. Really? Right. >> So, thinking about, you know, if we if we figured a way to eliminate this and but still address the ugly fence thing,

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um I suppose >> it'll it'll help their document. I suppose if we if it's an ugly fence concern then we should look at different materials. That's that's what I'm >> the person putting up the fence an option of different yeah maybe half a dozen >> if if it's a possibility I don't I I

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don't know how assuming they would do that give them the choice let's >> and then what if the neighbor says we do that >> is it ugly in the eyes of the whole >> that's the problem we have a six types of approved densities

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>> yes I just hurt you not >> I'm telling her heard So, I think what I think what we'll do, okay, is is um let me put together a like a little display or something of a half a dozen choices other than big

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white binocular public fences. I can tell you when Tommy was was out of was the chairman, he had a fence book and if he had a fence application, he would take the book out say, "How about this fence? About this?" No kidding. Hell yeah. I don't think you

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should impose dial on someone. I'm sorry. I really don't. >> So, uh, all right. fence >> so let's continue >> for another uh another workshop

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>> we're not going to resolve this obviously >> six foot white fence but they're only limited >> Johnny they mean those white solid ones that people have >> I have partially that

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>> I think a lot of people put them in these >> because they don't want people to look at it. >> Okay. I saw >> put maybe a cool. >> Okay. So, that was the last of our workshop reports. No. Anybody from the public

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want to speak? Thank you. No. >> Uh you have something for us. just I gota ask you what is it >> just so briefly uh because this came up at uh our last meeting too that the the like what's happening with the

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innovation center over at on the on the prism campus and the answer is an appeal's been taken from the planning board's decision approving the application it's been taken by Nutley Lumber that was here during many of the the I think all the meetings uh

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expressing their concerns about the application. So, uh what they've done is they filed what's called a complaint in L of prerogative ritz and uh it's on before a judge for an eventual hearing. Uh the complaint that's been filed by

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Nutly Lumber has been answered by Merrill Ger and her on behalf of her client. Uh it's also been a answered on behalf of the township of Meltley planning board by me and by an attorney from Oul SCRo who's also working on the

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uh supporting the board's decision. I don't know if anybody wants to get a copy of the complaint or the answers that were filed. They're pretty stock and they're pretty long. And uh if you want I can send you an electronic copy to to read over. uh just let me know and

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I'll I'll uh send out a blast to whoever wants to to look at it. Uh so what is happening now is we've had a case management conference with the judge last week. He set down a bunch of dates for exchanges of materials what the record is supposed to look like before

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this board and for purposes of his making a determination um and uh on the multiple issues that have been raised by Nutley Lumber. Uh I I I think frankly my own view is that the board will be sustained because you

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did your job properly and I don't think there's a legitimate legal basis for finding that what the board did was wrong in any way, shape or form and obviously prison would say guys did a great job too. And so they'll be taking the same position but uh that's to be

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determined I guess uh we'll see how long it takes. That was going to be my question. You have any typical ETAs or something? >> I think I think the judge is looking to have the record established, set, and briefed because that's how these

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decisions get made. It's really an argument based on the record. The judge gets the briefs on the law and the positions being taken by uh Nutley Lumber uh Prism and uh the Nutley Planning Board. They they get

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briefs, they have the record, and the judge looks it over and makes a determination, >> gets a copy of the minutes and everything. >> Oh, yeah. They get the they get the the transcripts from everything. So, they'll have, you know, full transcripts from all the hearings. Uh, and this judge does have some land use background, which is unusual, but good. And I think

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he'll do a good job of reading through everything carefully and uh we'll see how it shakes out. >> So, any questions? >> Anyone? >> Uh, oh. Oconor. >> Okconor. Okconor. Yeah, I was Irish. I

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was say Judge Okconor. Yeah. Nice. >> Be an interesting study. >> Put the data center on the property where the lumber yard is and use the 90 million gallons a year of storm water. >> That problem. We take it high enough to keep it out of the flood zone.

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>> Outstanding. >> Very good. We ready for a motion? >> Second. All in favor? I. Thank you all. >> Thank you for your work.