okayy I'd like to call a meeting to order please stand for the flag salute pledge aliance to the flag United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy thank
youum to the requirements of the open public meetings act notice of this meeting was in included in the annual notice of the regular meetings for the year 2025 as advertising The Star Ledger Herald news and the nutly sun on November 21st 2024 with a copy posted on
the township of Nutley bulletin board first floor Town Hall copy is filed in the office of the Township Clerk and copies are available to all members of the general public uh I believe we received some minutes regarding our joint meeting did
anybody my apologies can we call the rooll Please Mr maano excused here she's zooming yes I am here you can't hear me he's here he's zooming so sorry it's
okay he's just walking walking in right now here pres here here Dr present Zoom present okay let's see Mr uh cell will
you please sit for Mr maano now we can approve our minutes from our our joint meeting I know we we we we already we clocked you in already you're on you're getting [Laughter] paid okay we have any discussion regarding the
minutes there being none I'll I'll enter a motion minut accepted we got a second all those in favor I opposed and one exstension thank you me
I I abstain okay I wasn't here okay all right let's get caught up here okay communication and bills uh I don't have anything in front of me for approval any bills youing so
well that's good where's the fold minutes you want to F that ah sorry about that I do see that we have a submission of a bill from Miss Santa SI for attendance at preparation
of meeting minutes for February 19225 which were just approved it's the amount of $150 which I find to be fair and reasonable you hear a motion move it any second second all those in favor I
iOS abstentions thank you that's it that's it for communications okay great all right so we have no resolutions we have no uh applications tonight uh new business we have uh the hearing for uh
35 uh Evergreen a the Diamond Springs uh application for final site plan approval uh is going to be on the 19th of uh uh March anybody understands that well before you jump ahead that matter was I'm sorry did everybody get a copy of
the plans yes everybody got them okay I'm sorry BR uh before we move ahead with respect to that that application was scheduled for hearing this evening uh from March the 5th it it's been adjourned and the applicant has waved
all time constraints that may apply through April 1st uh 2025 uh and as a result of same uh both his appearance and his client's appearance is excused for this evening and no republication is required okay so we're confirmed for the 19th we are
confirmed for the 19th jar could we get a um could they identify the changes in their site plan relative to what we approved initially so we don't have to hunt and pick for it so that's a fair request I've already made that request I
was told it was going to be addressed but you've got what I've got and uh I will I will remind the applicants Council that that was requested and that it should be done and I would suggest that it be done ahead of time not to mention you know to annotate the
conditions as to how they met them as well but well they're going to have to cover that with testimony if it's not covered by the plan so so they're going to have to really have both covered okay it would be good to have that ahead of time yeah I I indic yeah I'll ask for it I have asked for it so have we confirmed
with our experts that they they got copies of the plan they have copies they're gonna have a uh their reports in time they were told okay fair enough okay I don't believe I don't believe that I received the electronic
copy oh you should have it was sent it was sent okay oh you yeah you wouldn't missing it's this B no I did not okay all right we'll get your electronic copies that won't be a problem do you want to okay I appreciate that me too
that's okay Carol needs it as well needs can we get the I mean I'm sure we can search back in our emails but can we get a uh copy of the resolution that we gave for preliminary approval sure that's I can I can take
care of that I I you said that I've actually just sent it recently I will I will look at my recent emails I'll send it I'll send it to everybody again it's not a big deal please because I didn't electronic copy as
well what's that Len I said I didn't see the um uh any any emails from Barry so I think the resolution sent some time ago but I think it's a good idea to send it again seven of your email yes yeah Lorraine Lorraine check
uh February 18th your email I'm looking you were cop you were listed maybe you didn't go through for some it might not I've been having a little trouble down here and I don't know why but come back February February
18th I'm looking do you know what it's here but it wasn't here before what did you do that the one with the resolution thank you I do I no these are from uh
the site plans from uh Jessica Deno so I get I did get the site plans electronically so I I don't need them again but I didn't get anything from Barry and and that may have been before
that right Barry yeah the resolution uh we receiv received the resolution from uh our esteemed attorney on December 5th 24 do you have a different phone than everyone else you found that so fast I don't know how I found this I can't find my wife's
phone number that fast that might be Del December 5th CH par me yeah December 5th at 9:52 a.m. it's I got it okay let me I don't want to tell you but that's here
as well type in in your email and and that was December I wasn't in Florida then it's it's been a uh it's been an interesting six months so forgive me everyone but yes Barry thank you no
problem and thank you Jerry that's the resolution I have it written down now okay just I'm the secretary know oh good when you are uh just touch base with the old
business right uh real quick um any updates on any the prohibited uses that we've sent up to the Commissioners Mr Mayor what was that any updates on the uh prohibited usage that we sent up the bail bonds the check Cas places stuff like that ex accessory
dwelling no we're still that's coming we're talking the we talked about that at the last meeting there's I couldn't by the way you said there's a third version of it where do I find that okay well I'll ask around there because if there's three versions they're not sitting on it that's for
sure told also wanted to look at you know what other towns have done Princeton has a very good ordinance Princeton actually um Maplewood has a good one too I read that one second
okay so now we're on our Workshop um well I'd like to see if we can accomplish today uh this will be our at least our third time talking about these definitions for the warehouses uh the last time we were together if you'll bear with me to find
my note we came up with a handful of questions um for uh Mr Ricky it is okay so I emailed it uh to him so here we go commercial warehouses why is distribution center and Commercial
Warehouse in quotes his answer was it doesn't have to be so we could take it out um Define or clarify Min warehouses many warehouses is referring to Self Storage so maybe we should add do we want to add
a self self storage to a definition in case we want to address it because they're obviously they're all over the place um okay that's a better better definition because we know what he's talking about yeah yes did we all had remember you came up
with all these questions and he was I I think I forwarded this to everybody but that's still let's just review what is a truck chassis Trailer box truck Etc uh his answer was I don't think I use those terms he wants me to wants to wants to
know if he wants us to Define H each one of them individually would we want that different types of trucks I think this should be if you're going to Define trucks different kinds of trucks it should be U weight classifications thrown in
there so trucks type and weight well I would presume whatever descriptions you have of the different types of trucks there'll be some that you'll say are acceptable under certain in certain zones certain conditions and there'll be others that you'll say are
not acceptable under certain conditions or at all I mean that's that that's the reason for having the extra definitions to say yes or no as to the different classifications okay what is the difference between
truck storage and parking his answer is we should clarify the overnight parking out out side of a normal business hours would be storage uh versus parking during business hours uh this comes up in a lot of uh limo businesses you're allowed to use
office space but not park the cars overnight and we pretty much have that covered we don't have overnight parking the question is do we want to let a warehouse um able be able to park their vehicle on
the property overnight when it's when it's not open well there's there's different options there there's inside the building they can park inside the building that way you don't see them outside the building and you can permit
that outside the building you could say it's not permitted you know I mean if if you're trying to discourage uh a building from becoming a parking lot for trucks for a lot of reasons you just say it's not permitted
from the hours of x to Y and okay that stops IT understood and I think the part of the ordinance that we're working on or the definition I should say that we're working on being the size of the warehouse being 50,000 feet or smaller that's going to prohibit most people
from trying to do other than what we already have and I got a list from uh Dave of the different uh properties that we have in town that are what you might call Warehouse like a retail store with their own storage nothing's anywhere near that big and remember that uh down the um building on River Road it's
actually six and there is room in the back of the park my recollection is pretty good back for Park little bit yeah when I went by there late morning there was a couple trucks back there and cars maybe people working see my recollection is when he
when they did that presentation that was one of the questions what if you have a vehicle because the the the expectation was that whoever was in there whatever their business was they would have vehicles at least one vehicle and so what what what happens to the vehicle
and the solution was well nobody thought having a vehicle parked in front looked very good and would it would look like a parking lot instead of a you know a nice building and so the behind the building became the solution they could park behind the building that would not be a
problem I drove by that building a couple times since our last meeting and it's a nice building for that area yeah and it it serves a good purpose it's a great use it's a nice looking building as well I me I I think that applicant
really tried to make it look very you know okay for the neighborhood so and he's and he's maintained it too I that yes I don't know if the owner actually occupies any of those spaces I'm not sure he may not but he he doesn't they keep even even the grounds considering
what it is it's it looks pretty good us a little more green but okay uh let's see can a business park a truck overnight and where I believe Dave allows this this is a very important this is very important and needs to be tightened up uh he's asking Dave if
there's if there's language in the code so we can verify what Dave if there's language in the code but we don't really want um any overnight parking either on obviously not on the street but we don't want it outside agreed agree unless it's really
screened in such a way that no one can see it from the street suppose you had a situation where the owner of the warehouse goes there um and leaves the truck at night and then drives home in it's regular vehicle so if the truck
stays there it's part of the business no no it's not part of the business unless we said you well that's what we're trying that's what we're trying to inside he has that he has the option to park it inside the building or somewhere else
okay it if that's what you want to do I mean no I'm just thinking if you're a nutly resident and you own the warehouse right and you have a vehicle that you use to deliver things and you go there in the morning and you're you can't bring that home and park it well you see when you're doing planning you can't think of it that way yeah you can't
think of it that what if there's 20 owners of businesses whether they're nutly residents or not and they're going to park their 20 Vehicles out there overnight is that what you want to encourage so if you want to encourage that then you do that if you want to
discourage it you have to find a way of dealing right because you that's the thing with planning whenever you think of a situation you say well I know Jerry and he's a pretty good guy he he he won't park there too often the next guy won't be Jerry it won't be Jerry it'll
be Barry who parks there and brings all of his friends too so that that's what you have to think about cath I could always ask for a variance from whatever the ordinance is okay okay so somebody comes and wants to build a warehouse and says they can't
park outside they can come here and say we like a variance for that because of whatever reason right and we think it's okay we can approve we don't no we're talking about I'mma right if they want to leave
their trucks overnight in the back of the building where you can't see from the street right okay C said the same thing so again right see the idea the idea to to to uh what um Dr Joe was
saying we wouldn't I wouldn't make it a I wouldn't make it prohibited uh permitted to park overnight but if somebody wants to build the warehouse say I want to park we're going to be parking four trucks in the back that's part of their variance and instead of leaving it open for everybody gives us a
little bit more control over over what goes on uh the the last question that we discussed and I'm looking at the the answer and I'm still it we wanted to know we want to discuss the possibility of a of an owner of a piece of property doesn't necessarily have to even be a warehouse renting
spaces uh for just a parking space for trucks or whatever that's interesting thing in nut Le because what's that that's a parking lot right it's a parking lot we property it's it would have to be
considered we don't have we don't have par right so so correct me if I'm wrong if I own a gas station and it's a 200 by 200 foot lot in a small building where I fix cars and there's no gas I'm sorry
it's just a repair place I'm not allowed to rent that space to the guy who lives down the street who doesn't have enough room in his driveway that would be that would I think that's correct I agree I mean that's correct not be allowed but it's happening all that's exactly what I'm talking that's why I'm bringing it
up that's an yeah okay so the answer to that would be no okay so as as far as these I'll editorialize a little bit some of these gas St repair shots that look like used
car locks yeah drive around drive around and look at how many cars are parked in those lots there's no way they can be working on all those cars at one there's two bays and 15 cars there's no way they're working on all 15
cars well Street field and high of Bloomfield Avenue and High Street there's got to be 20 tourist Park boats in the back it's you know it's like like bar said it's an Enforcement issue but um and which we all we could do is control
what's in our ordinances and what we allow what we don't allow and if they come for a variance we talk about that and if people are doing what they're not supposed to do that doesn't have that's not in our purview as a board so okay so this will be our third meeting we're discussing this Warehouse uh thing and
this is something I think that we need to get to definition um finalized and and sent up to the uh uh the Commissioners for the review and I'm sure that you know once the attorneys take a look at it they're going to change it but we need to and we all know what's going on in this town we need to
get a definition a a uh a serviceable and and clear definition of warehouses truck terminals um so we can control a little bit better what what might happen in the future as I mentioned in our last meeting and I'll remind everybody I took
a little run around town and I ran across just some pieces of property that might become that are big pieces of property that who knows what they're going to become later on in life abundant life on on Washington Avenue big piece of property the old
proponent where uh Bank over down by uh Clifton Commons that's going to be up for sale soon uh Viola Brothers is obviously huge on both sides um the VFW was an a nice piece of property and nutly Kya I I don't think Nutley K is an
issue because somebody just bought that business and the old Hawkins oil which is on Park a these are half a dozen big pieces of property and your for certain things right now but like just as an example hoggins I mean that become that might be talked about being maybe a
rehabilitation piece of property or Redevelopment property and if that happens we have to make sure we're controlling what happens so that being said uh I want to proceed with having uh uh Paul Ricky put together the final definition and I'm and send it up to the
uh Commissioners is that is that something I can do that way or do we have to you should do you have the language from him now because if you have it just with a just just a couple notes nothing well if you have it then that's what you send over you know you don't need to have PA typed it up I mean if you want
to mark it up anywhere you want to you can get it retyped if necessary but you should have the Board review whatever it is you send not have Paul prepare whatever he wants to send that's not really the right procedure okay that's why I'm asking yeah okay you know the it's the board's recommendation not
Paul's because you may may not agree with Paul you uh you know he has his viewpoints and you have yours so present whatever you want to present and the board could say yes send that over okay so if we go through this
real quick does everybody still have a copy of the thing that Paul sent it's it's pretty much the same I printed up a new one for myself today because my old one has all stuff written all over it well you could read through each of them and have them say yes or no I'm going to read through them real quick it's only a couple of pages
okay so these are existing definitions so we'll skip through that possible definitions working accessory Warehouse a completely enclosed building where up to 50% of the building may be used for the storage of merchandise an accessory Warehouse may
not exceed 5 50,000 square feet so we agree with that one we've talked about that before yes any input yes we got a yes okay okay okay Cold Storage means a structure
building space or facility where temperature sensitive goods and products are stored for extended periods of time I think we uh we talked about not allowing that but it should be in here right that that everybody agree with that definition whether or not is going
to be permitted or prohibited uses is another conversation um we okay with the cold storage yes okay uh truck terminal an establishment primarily engaged in Furnishing hauling
and or transfer services without long-term product or cargo storage and where trucks trucks load and unload products or cargo for Trans shipment or rep reh re reshipment without accessory
considerations repacking or value added Services a truck terminal may also include accessory area for the repair service maintenance and temporary storage or parking of trucks does that does that suggest it's
inside a building for the repair work or is it outside the building um it really doesn't I'll read it again a truck terminal may also include accessory areas for the repair service maintenance temporary storage or parking of trucks
so we just got done talking about cars you know being parked on a parking lot where repairs are being done on cars this is now trucks uh you know if you if you you know you have to think about whether how it's going to look or whether that's
something you want to encourage how about we put within the structure yeah okay so here may a truck th may also include accessory areas inside the building for repair service maintenance temporary
storage or parking of trucks which we said parking inside is going to be okay anyway all right we good with that good yeah all right good you know what that does too it limits the amount of space that it could be used for right because they have to
have somewhere to park the trucks Sol like think about it if they're repairing trucks they may even have a lift in there you don't know to right definitely have tools and and if any if it's any kind of a substantial truck it needs one substantial lift to get in the
air okay truck terminal or cross docking facility means a structure building space or facility where the unloading of materials from a manufacturer takes place within this building and these materials are assembled and palletized
to be shipped via a mode of transportation directly to the customer with little or no storage time time between they are designed for high throughput trans shipment meaning no storage time in between I'm sorry trans
shipment meaning they are not used for long-term warehousing these facilities are typically characterized by low buildings to land coverage and large secured lots for truck parking trucks trailers and Chassis now again this is just a
definition the the the prohibited or per permitted of it is not in conversation right now is that a definition that we think is okay yes yes clear okay I'm good it all right Commercial Warehouse this is this
is this is important includes the warehousing and distribution of goods provided that up to 5% of the gross floor area of any Distribution Center may be used for executive or Administrative Office uses
and so ancillary to the warehouse distribution uses warehousing is a commercial warehouse yeah and I'm sorry warehousing in a commercial warehouse shall not include the storage of fuels NJ Department of environment protection
regulated hazardous materials or hazardous waste highly flammable liquids or gases or petrochemical products all warehousing and storage of goods must be conducted exclusively within the enclosed structure and buildings the
gross leasable area of the warehouse shall shall be limited to 50,000 ft Commercial Warehouse may include multi-tenant facilities and cold storage facilities commercial warehouses shall
not include many warehouses or similar uses or truck terminals or similar uses now we talked about Cold Storage I guess we can keep that in there commercial warehousing include multi-tenanted facilities and cold storage facilities one how's that sound
yeah mark this is a this is a new def this commercial warehouse is a is a new term cor it's it's new to our meetings this was generated after the first meeting yep that definition I think it's clear right I'm sorry L I think it's clear
okay I I definitely think it's clear and I like the 50,000 square feet yeah okay all right so we're good with that one yeah yeah good wherehouse fulfillment center means a large format Regional fulfillment
facility dedicated to e-commerce Supply chains that Pick and Pack incoming orders from shelves for individual delivery in order to fulfill individual online orders they are short-term storage based
holding a very high range of goods but also rely on high level of throughput and receive Pick Pack kit label and deliver products to people's doorsteps in delivery trucks and vans buildings would include crust docking F functions
whereby palletized Freight is moved across the Distribution Center to another truck to complete the rest of its Journey characterized as having little or no storage function due to the perishable nature of many Goods being shipped such as food including
refrigeration and heated refrigerated and heated and includes fabric fun fabric fabric fabrication functions cold storage and Refrigeration functions uh break bulk functions whereby palletized
Freight or boxed goods are completely broken down so that the consumer can receive a small quantity of their exact specifications that's basically an Amazon thing right it's an Amazon right okay so I mean that's that's very clear
to me it's obvious what that is and it also makes it kind of clear that you can have cars going in and out 24 or trucks going in and out 247 and it's still subject to the 50,000 square foot uh portion of our our con well maybe we should do that maybe we should add that
to that can't exceed 50,000 square feet is that something you would add to that if you wish you think if you wish let me ask a question I didn't I don't know I don't know about that Mark because okay you're actually
putting it's definition right so most of those do exceed you're almost looking at it is we don't want it to get any bigger than that but okay because I I would think that's
going to be a prohibited use it doesn't matter how big it is okay fair enough so we're okay with it if you don't want it this is your chance but it's a definition right right so most of those I think are so what happens is this gets
this eventually in some form or another will eventually get adopted and in our definitions and our codes and then Zone by Zone you'll decide if it's a prohibited use or a permitted use okay you don't have to agree with me I was say no no it's okay I I absolutely
we do great okay Ware Warehouse Last Mile fulfillment center okay means a fulfillment center facility or station that primarily
serves local markets having a minimum gross floor area from 50,000 to more than 150,000 Square ft Last Mile fulfillment centers are in also include micro small fulfillment centers of 3,000 to more than 25,000 ft² Last Mile
fulfillment centers provide the final leg of delivery rather than a literal measurement of distance they serve either consumers individual households for online shopping or the retail stores that shop
at or the retail stores they stop shop at last mile delivery hubs may be smaller compared to distribution centers but Truck and Van trips are typically high as are the parking requirements necessary to accommodate hundreds of employees delivery Vans and trucks and
require a large parking lot impervious surface footprint than other Warehouse operations clear clear Warehouse Major Distribution means a large scale Regional and or Interstate distribution facility having a minimum
gross uh floor area of 500,000 to 1.1 million square feet it is a Transit hub for large quantities of bulk Goods that do not require finishing or individual packing and they are temporarily stored on pallets before
being shipped clear clear step in if you don't agree okay now this is the one I think that we put in because of the guy for exam as an example the guy on River Road contractor business means a single or multi-tenanted building designed for
contractors and building maintenance services and small uses that typically perform service Services offsite where few customers especially the general public come to come to the site examples of contractor business uses include but not limited to building heating plumbing
and electrical contractors the parking of commercial vehicles associated with the with a contractor business is a per permitted accessory outside usage a permitted accessory outside
storage use so this is a giving you a definition of what those those guys are but would we have to change the definition if we wanted to make them come for a variance if they wanted to park their trucks well if you say if you say that
yeah I mean yeah so we should do the parking of commercial vehicles associated with a contractor business is a prohibited accessory outside storage use if that's what you want is that sound right what you would say I mean
look there a difference between kind of hard there not permitted and prohibited no I think those are the same same thing so so the the remember don't forget these are definitions and how they get treated Zone by Zone becomes a
function of you know how how that gets addressed in in those other sections of the ordinates so right now you're trying to Define what it is and then later on whether it's permitted or not permitted or prohibited or not prohibited be a
function of looking at the other sections of the zone ofo so you you don't need to get into all the detail well but if we if we put this definition in and we make this in a per
permitted use in whatever B4 zones okay right then they'd be allowed they'd be allowed to park their trucks outside unless you said unless you legislate right now this is legislation unless you legislate that they're not permitted to doing yes the way we've
spoken about this yes if you see it you don't like it then prohibit it otherwise it's permitted so do we agree that the that definition is okay the way it is except we should put prohibited you accessory outside storage use so for example if somebody wants to build a
small uh Warehouse business Warehouse like this like the the six tenant unit it down on River Road they can build it but right now they can't park their trucks outside but if they want to park their trucks outside they have to come for a variant that would be correct that's what you put does everybody
agree okay is that silly is it silly I tend to agree but I'm like so I'm electrical contractor you have this beautiful building on River Road I can't park on the street and now you're telling me I can't park
in front of in my on my property in my parking lot in front of my building how am I how can I do business in the you know it depends jar it depends on what you want to encourage if we use the example that's down there now yeah that the building at six units I think you
said right six yeah six units they are permitted to park outside behind the building I think when they as I recall that application when they when they came with it that was one of the conditions that they received is that if you're going to have a vehicle you have to park it behind the building so it's
not you know viewable from the roadway and uh because the the units were not big enough for them to park inside now they we recognized this to be essentially small business folks H but they would have vehicles yeah we also
anticipated that I don't think we thought of every use in the world yeah but there were some examples given and so uh you know the the delivery vehicles that they use Etc uh but they park behind the building that's how we solv
that problem make it pal and I guess it's worked that makes sense yeah okay well they when that was part of the application it wasn't prohibited so we we we had to come up with a way of allowing them to have some paring we
just designed it that way kind of the the guy went a with he thought it was fine and would that roll into this definition like I'm envisioning an HB company so let's have a big HV first company who does a lot of they have a shop inside their warehouse they store
their their tools their parts and such and such and they have six mechanics to go out during the day and they dry Vans and when they come back at night they park the van there well so the question is do you want six Vehicles parked will they have room for six vehicles to to
park if we're designing we're basically taking the well look there's this unit we have down there now they have six six buildings with six Vehicles parked behind it so that's what's done there right so it could be one user and a big
HVAC company that has you know six Vehicles back here we wouldn't even know they were there what the way I see it you know unless you look went back there and looked okay the open space on another type of development their open spaces in
the front then basically we're saying will you can't park your vans in the front but if you have open space in the back then you could park your vans in your back and then he appli for a variance we look at the situation and we decide if it's a yes or a no and that building
excuse me that one we're talking about that was a that was new building so he could place the building wherever you wanted to place it it wasn't an existing building I think to point earlier you know let's remember we're talking about business zones you know we're not talk about residential zones you know so you
know I don't think it's it's an affront to the Aesthetics you know people's personal a aesthetic appreciation if they see a truck in front of a contractor's building in a business Zone I wouldn't want that next to my house on Hawthorne Avenue but if I'm driving through on
River Road River Road down the bottom of East Center Street yeah River Road bottom of East Center Street but if something happens on Washington Avenue when there's houses across the street yeah yeah yeah so I'd rather protect those people in a that it might be in
close CL proximity in their residential homes and give us an opportunity to say yes or no it's always the transitional Z you know keep keep in mind when you start to parse out the properties some of the neighborhoods are mixed neighborhoods East Center Street has
Residential Properties right so you know you're uh I mean I I that this property that we're talking about on River Road was a very good solution for the neighborhood because it it's not offensive to anybody yeah well fa is rout 21 and I think the other thing I
think the other thing was when we spoke to the guy who was putting it in he said well you know you would expect maybe one of the users to have a vehicle for deliveries and the like Etc and we saw and we were concerned about overnight parking you know that where they going to park the vehicle so we put them
behind the building and this way you could park overnight it wasn't going to bother anybody because it was parked behind the building I think those buildings have a parking space in front too well there is a bay so you could like a garage door could probably fit at least one in there right but I think
that the idea was if they used the bay they could use the bay but they also had a parking space in the front they could park in the front right well there yeah there's a there's a good siiz front lot that people could park so the idea was during the day you had an extra space in the front if a customer came to pick
something up or whatever your employees right an employee there would be sufficient space they weren't expecting a lot of employees because of the size of the place and what they were being used for uh but uh look it's worked out very well I mean
good Solution by the board agree agree the last one before we get to the the master plan stuff we already know what that said it says the storage uh the township could should consider could consider adding language such as the
storage of truck cabs and or trailers where permitted is limited to one truck per loading Bay with a maximum of 10 trucks unless expressly permitted elsewhere in the chapter so that that's suggest suggesting that that building on
if I'm not mistaken that building on River Road with six Bays really he can have six trucks parked outside yeah I don't I don't think you want to do that no no I'm just you know I so we're just going to take that out yeah and that's
it I this is I mean this is this is just copies of board the other stuff is what's on our master plan that he just put on here that we already know about So based on what we just discussed did you want me to put something together and send it up to the to the man to the managers to the Commissioners sure yes
do we have to vote on it how do we do that no I think you could just ask everybody what all in favor of me uh putting together a a final draft of this based on our conversations and putting sending up to the Commissioners all those in favor I post I I okay very
good um I just want to ask talk about one other thing uh because we bandied it back and forth so many times this uh basement kitchen bathroom thing um the last thing we discussed is
the use of a Cellar or basement for sleeping purposes is prohibited that's one thing a bathroom right a bathroom sink toilet shower or kitchen is permitted in a basement or Cellar but not both that was this is result of one
our one of our meetings discuss that we didn't agree on that yeah right this is this is a change to something that we were we already had and this is based on conversations that we had I think two workshops ago okay um I'd like to be able to get get something uh so so
because Dave and um and and car are I mean this is like keeping them up nights and we've been talking about this for so long um and I was wondering what do you think about if there's a kid Kitchen in the basement or seller shouldn't there
be uh some kind of a direct exit I'm thinking of a fire that's what I'm thinking of I personally don't think kitchen should be allowed the basement at all okay and the reason the reason
is I think they're currently Pro prohibited I think that's just setting up a situation or something that could be used as a multif family or mother daughter which has no legal definition yeah right true
right anybody else have any feelings about this I me there's a house why should give be a pict in the basement well because I mean look at what we talked about the last meeting you know some of these houses are small so if you if you have a finished basement and you're going to host a Thanksgiving
dinner I mean how many people said up a ping pong table and put a tablecloth on it and you ate down there maybe to heat up I I don't know I just well the so so I think what you have to do is back into what you want to do so we we know what a kitchen is okay it's a place where you
can cook and you know store food in a refrigerated facility and have a stove for cooking and alike uh the purpose being to feed people okay uh sometimes they could be small enough you can use use it to watch the Super Bowl I suppose
but the fact is it's designed to you to have food and to cook uh what does it have any other purpose other than that no and so then you take it to why would you have that downstairs in the first place would you have it downstairs uh
you know for Super Bowl like episodes and parties like you're talking about some people would do that but does it encourage people to turn it into living space for somebody using it as as a dwelling as opposed to using it for
you know an event like you're talking about or I was just mentioning you know the only way to to if you're concerned about the the living space part of it prohibiting it en entirely certainly discourages it this is my thought process people are
spending a lot of money for houses yep in this town okay you buy a 1,200 foot home for $800,000 and you want maximize every inch of that home that you can and if it means that there's a little I don't know
if you need an extra room for a bathroom Okay then if you're going to put an area if you want to like we talked about home office suppose you want to put a home office down there and you want to put maybe so that if and a counter because
you want to have a coffee pot because you don't want to go upstairs to get coffee or whatever I I just think that if the law says you can't have an apartment in your basement you can't have it so what we're trying to do I
think is make it so people can't break the law I mean what is the purpose here other than if somebody wants to just use it for their own family purposes and not rent a basement apartment who are we to say when you're spending all this money what you can and
what you can't do with each square inch of that I can I can answer that question which is the reason why we've been talking about it for so long is because I I I if I can get Carl tenell to stand in front of you right now he could probably give you a dozen places he's been to in the last two months where they put somebody living in their
basement whether it's a family member or not so if there's a full bathroom in a basement they they build a kitchen if there's a kitchen in the basement they set up some kind of a bathroom so whether it's a rental most of the time it's in a legal basement apartment you opening the door Kev but
if people are going to be doing something illegal they're going to be doing it whether they get permit or they can't and I think we have to remember the history of this town is that we have a lot of Italian Americans in this town myself included and my Italian
grandmothers had kitchens in their basement I grew up in a kitchen there's multiple reasons for that it's not that they were renting it out but the you know especially around the holidays they had multiple stoves going uh the thing and you're 100% right about that and and
I grew up that way but it's it's it's not 1967 anymore unfortunately so so what I'm saying is Kitchen in my house I can't because I'm thinking about putting I'm I don't have a bathroom in my basement but Thanksgiving is a really tough meal stove down here if I had a
stove down the basement and a little area with a counter space that I could take my stuff out put on a counter make life a lot easier right instead of frying the freaking bird outside you cook the bird in the basement you do the rest of it in your on the first floor well I think that was part of the
reason some you guys have said about that you can't have both you can't have both so so now if you have a little TV room down there that you're watching TV and you want to get up and use the bathroom go upstairs that's yeah but I I just think that there one thing
spending a lot of money for a house in this town I understand that and if you're told you can't put a if you're gonna have a home office downstairs or and you can't put aath you can have a half bath just can't have a shower okay but but the I'm I'm sorry
but one of the things is and and I I learned and is this board's job is to look at what's in front of us but look at what might happen 20 years from now so if you just say sure bring it put in the bathroom put in the kitchen and make your basement real nice and it's great you use it in Thanksgiving when Grandma
comes over she stays you know so your family from Florida comes up yeah you got the nice sweet downstairs but then when they sell the house the next guy could rent it and I didn't buy a house on Whitford Avenue so my neighbor can rent their BAS basement I thought there was some sort of walk because I know
you're not allowed to have basement apartments no not if there's basement apartments something about the basement kitchen there has to be appropriate Ingress and egress window Windows always to small and and and to your point mayor people are going to do what they're going to do and they're going to
circumvent the system is we can't we can't do our legislation based on thinking people are going to do what the hell they're going to do anyway because they're gonna we have to we have to do our due diligence to control it as best we can and then we then we have to enforce it also a lot of
sorry car was next I personally think a full bath should be permitted I don't think a kitchen that has a stove should be permitted I think the stove is the deciding factor I think you can have a refrigerator I think you can have a
sink I don't think you should be allowed to have a stove because I think that's what really constitutes something that could be used as an extra apartment you can have a you know you can have a coffee maker you can have a toaster oven but I don't think
you should have a regular stove I don't think that should be and in most towns you cannot your your your your objection is because you you think that that makes you more conducive to make it a rental absolutely now in mclair the issue is third floor stoves because they a lot of
people in Monclair have third illegal third floor Apartments so you know the deciding factor there you can have a hot plate whatever you can't have a stove and I think that a stove should not be allowed in a basement because that tends to lend
itself to an illegal use my concern about I think the back I think I think it lends itself to a higher level my my concern about my only concern about a stove in a basement is a potential fire is there way for whoever's God forbid down there to get the hell out you know
right that's I you know you guys were talking about 1967 and I think if Carl was here he would tell you A lot of those Italian American houses now have basement
apartments in them yeah and hence the problem and it's you know and whatever that reason is right whether it was sold and somebody decided that they could it out or someone gets
old can't afford the taxes and and decides to rent out their basement it's happening yeah I don't think we're going to be able to stop it from happening uh people are going to be putting in B these
kitchens and bathrooms whether we permit it or not they're they're going to be violating the law but I think if we give them an Avenue to do this and comply with code and comply get the inspections keep it safe we we would know the potent and we would also know the potential
culprits where there's could potentially be these basement apartments and and you know we start seeing a lot more traffic there we can do our due diligence and you know site them find them well what would the due diligence be if you've
already said it's okay I mean what saying it's okay to put the kitchen in the bathroom it's not saying it's okay to make an apartment right and you could do some driveby see if there's two mailboxes outside the house now which you know is a single family Homewise or two mailboxes uh that kind of stuff and
then call them before judge Jenna Temple and let them say you know this is this isn't a this isn't a two family this is this is just you know I'm using my my permitted kitchen as uh a single family
use I just think something we need to think long and hard about based on the fact that people iel houses in this town people are spending a real lot of money in house and they're spending a real a lot of money on taxes and they're spending a real lot of money on water so you know if you start telling them you
have a 1,200 square foot home and you know well no you can put a ba bathroom in but you can't put a shower um I don't know I think you can have a full I I I that's silly I think you can have a full full bathroom in the basement because a
lot of houses have no space for a second bathroom right you know so I I have no problem with the bathroom I have a major problem with permitting an actual stove well you put it in a full bathroom and you get a hot plate and a giant uh
air fryer and you have basically a stove and a and a oven but you don't have a stove it's still not a stove it's a cooking facility but it's not a stove because that's what that's what really LS you get a hot
FL gas or whether you through through a flame or you cook it on a plate that's you know burning the the gas is heating the plate I don't think there's much of a difference the functions the end results an electric griddle is the same thing
right I mean if look if I guess you have to back again you have to back into what you want to do here and that's why I think from the safety perspective it makes more sense to permit it have them come here submit their appropriate application and maybe uh you know Carl
or Dave says you know your your basement's too small configured right you can safely install a gas line here and and you know God forbid someone you know doesn't go through that process and tries to run a gas line under the table or off the books and you know does
something wrong and hurts themselves or others or the community you know it's almost like we're creating a a a situation that we don't want to see see you're I believe believe and agree
with what you're saying but the Genesis of this whole conversation started a long time ago from Dave and Carl please give us guidance on what you want us to do in a basement he doesn't want to leave it up to him because there's no place on our books that that give you guidance you can do this and you can't
do that that's why that's why we're having this conversation yeah we need to help we need to provide we need to provide a framework of you can have a kitchen or you can have a bathroom just access access to this basement area yeah was also an issue for him whether
not he had outside access or he had to go through the house like a bco do is not considered direct access yeah but I mean I think the main thing would be if to prohibit departments is you can't have a bed down you can't have because there no got
forid your fire the use of a Celler or basement for sleeping purposes is prohibited you see that see the problem with the you're right you could say that it's a lot easier to just put a couch down here you're going to sleep on and say it's not a bed and get away with
using it as a as an apartment you know these are not apartments that you and I would probably rent that's for sure but there are other people who would be very happy listen we've had a lot of problems with these excess apartments in town over the years we've had people have rented apartments with no bath and you
say to yourself how is that possible but they do and they they use the neighboring Dunkin Donuts and the like to get get away with not having a bath it's kind of of gross but never heard that yeah I I and I know one of the facilities where we have three Dunkin Donuts and nutly so it could be
happening but it goes to my point that whether we permit it or not people are going to do it and we might as well permit it regulate it in a way that we can maintain some sort of oversight over it ensure that it's done in a safe well the oversight is you can't do it period That's the oversight that's the way to
stop it if you don't want to have it do it right so I I see man saying here if you put some additional constraints on okay you know here's how you do it properly
microphone oh well if somebody wants to do it legitimately they they would have to go for variance exactly my my point to this whole thing is you're punishing law abiding citizens who buy a
home and want to modify their home for legal purposes not because they want to rent an apartment Varian get they could get a variance do not let me finish okay so if you buy a home you spend a lot of money for the home and you want to put in another
bathroom in your basement with a shower because you have only one and you have five people living in the house and you need that extra bathroom and if you if you decide you need that extra stove down there as long as it's done legally because your kitchen's small
you're being punished be and you're never in your lifetime or ever even in your ownership ever thinking about putting an apartment down there so now you're being punished because of the people who break the law who will put an apart an illegal apartment down there so
now you want to punish the people who do things illegally by hurting the people who are probably 85 to 90% of the people who do it legally no well it's not it's not 85 it's that's it's not C there's a lot more illegal apartments in this town
Than People realize you need to go into the areas where there's not the $750,000 home but the $400,000 home on King Street Carmer Avenue and over there
Conover and Hancock and you'll see the three and four mailboxes on the on the outside of the home and you know it's only a two family house so then how do you enforce
if you see the four mailboxes don't you bring them to court what you do we're coming into we're coming into your house when you go into those houses or when you what's in the basement is there an actual Kitchen in there is it fully do you have to get access to the house
we're not going to stop just walk in so I'm saying is it more so of a guess of what's down there or do we actually know what's in the sorry do we actually know what's in those basements or is it more of a guess of you know we think they have a kitchen down there full bath is there a way to actually tell like you said you're
guessing right but right it's an educated guess that something illegal is going on there you have six cars four bail boxes you know no no uh Green Space there's paved yeah go take a ride go
take a ride those more so what I'm thinking is is there almost like a common enemy between these houses that we're aware of right most of these illegal Apartments have stov right most of them have full bats or whatever it may be maybe that's the way to go about it but if we don't know makes it
difficult really well we we could also the other enforcement piece is we can make it so UNP palatable to actually have an illegal apartment that if you get caught you're going to be hit with a stiff fine like $10,000 per fence or
something plus you got to move the person out which I think New Jersey has it that that codify where you have to pay like six months rent for some who you rented an illegal apartment to um so correct me if I'm wrong but I also think
if you have an illegal apartment and something happens your insurance does not Cate you have illegal use in the house why not is that true I think anything that you do that's illegal you're running a really bad risk you know you're you're choosing to break the law that's a serious problem and you
just I don't know maybe money money changes your mind fast $1,500 a month if we're going to be eventually looking at accessory sorry accessory dwelling units if we permit a
full kitchen in the basement we're not going to have a lot of you know room to stand on you know grounds to stand on if we say you know you cannot make an apartment in your basement as an accessory Dell we permit Stones I was
thinking about that too because thinking down the road you know we're going to be tough to be able to comply our lots are not big you know what they're talking about in the state law with these accessory buildings we're we're pretty much not going to be able to build any of them where are you putting them we
don't have doesn't matter they bed I don't forget about your sideline forget about your setback requirements stick it in the corner build it two cares take your garage and make it into a so so are they gonna say well why why
are you not permitting if if you could put an in-law your in-laws in the basement can't that's the issue you can't I I don't think it's foron conclusion that because you allow a bathroom and a kitchen in a basement that it's you know it's now now we we're
pivoting to accessory dwellings that could be accessory dwelling if you allow that because the key I think to any sort of dwelling unit is ingress and egress and if you don't have especially in a fire an escape Avenue but I think you know for for
legal permitted basement apartments you need a full window that someone can climb out of you can't have these little Bas so I I I think that you know it's not necessarily a foregone conclusion that just because we allow a kitchen or
a bathroom in a basement it doesn't necessarily mean that we're we're you know abstaining or or advocating our uh our ability to regulate you and prohibit accessory dwelling units I think if Dave
were here he would have a much should back because we have new members to to understand what their issues are important I reached out to Dave yesterday it was too late he had
something going on tonight shame on me but it may be may be very educational for everybody to hear what they're dealing with on an everyday basis okay
okay CH and part of that is the point that Dave asks of us you to to just he's asking us to make policy and decisions that make his life easier like we talk
about passing all these rules and then we say well it's an Enforcement issue it's an Enforcement issue they're not we can't enforce it right how many how many illegal Apartments do we have have in this town and you can't say well we're just going to enforce the the law we're not right
and people are people are breaking law and and and it's it's it goes to Public Safety so you know I think we have to acknowledge that you know an operational solution to a soft policy decision doesn't work you we don't have a hundred um field supervisors going around and
doing inspections and you know we say well we'll just find them we'll just find them what does that mean you know what if they don't pay they're not going to pay you know they're already break them for so you know what we're trying to do is you know come up with some with with a practical way of addressing these matters and fully acknowledging you
know people want to live in their basement you know but we don't want them to rent them out and you know it's kind of you know we have to be judicious is how we address this because we talk about you said you you say punish and we're punishing these people we're not when you buy the house the rule is you
can't have an apartment of basement so don't come to me a year later and say uh oh you know you're punishing me no that was a law when you bought the house in town you know and and I agree with you um but you know don't don't like uh say you
know you're being punished because the law you don't like the way the law reads well now right now there the law is you can't have a basement apartment so that's we have a law that says you can't have a basement apartment correct
so so we're trying to make it more difficult to have a basement apartment basically but the law already says you can't have it well it does it does but what you'll hear from from Dave and and from Carl if they come here they'll explain to you that despite having the
law you know if people don't come in and say I want a permit for a basement apartment they don't do that because they know it's prohibited okay I mean they could seek a variance for it but they don't so it doesn't happen but what does happen is that people create
illegal basement apartments and the way they do it is they secretly put in a kitchen they secretly put in a bath or maybe not even a full bath and now they have something that they could rent out because there there's enough square footage or at least for one person
perhaps to have their own little place downstairs and they turn it into whatever you want it to be and they rent it out and sometimes it's to one person sometimes it's a family they'll stick whoever they have to in there and you know commissioner scarpelli is correct
you know you may not see that in the $800,000 neighborhoods but you see it in the Lesser neighborhoods and so when we're legislating here that you are trying it's for all neighborhoods not just you know the the ones that think that they bought $800,000 place and they should be able to have whatever they
want down not saying whatever you want I mean you certainly should be able to add a bathroom yeah and I I think that the one or the other kind of thing is not a bad way to go right no either a kitchen or a
bathroom you have it's not a bad compromise and I think they they've also seen they Carl seen where you know one family homes are being advertised as two families oh yeah and oh wait a minute
you know so this gives the teeth under Co to come in and say you got to remove that this is not two families right you know you got to take that kitchen out or you got to take the bathroom out you got to take one of those out before we're going to give you a see out and fortunately that's the only time that they really have an opportunity to get
in that's right see what's going on so I'll see if I could schedule Dave and Carl to come and visit us at our next Workshop obviously it won't be our next meeting because we have our hearing um it's interesting know it seems like such a small thing and it well it's
tough It's a tough situation hard touch yeah I'm saying not you thing yes I like the idea of of prohibiting a basement as being for sleeping purposes and I like the idea I like the idea of having one or the other but I think for everybody's
uh edification especially for our new members we'll we'll see excuse me how soon we can get Carl and and Dave in here to explain okay that good that's good okay do we have any committee or subcommittee meetings reports
done I I'm open to public comments I see nobody here anybody on Zoom how do I find out if there's anybody on Zoom can tell you okay no he can't okay no questions from zo yeah okay counselor has already given
us a report do you have anything else to report sir not for this evening okay that being said I'll entertain a motion move it hi thank you all have a good night everyone bye the ring bye guys