##VIDEO ID:PcSnQf-Pzt0## okay we'll call this special meeting of the township devotion Board of adjustment to order Claire can you take a roll call please yes here here here here here here here here please rise with flute to the flaged states the notice requirements of the open public meeting law for this meeting have been satisfied a copy of the notice having being sent to the Asbury Park Press and the coaster and filed with the off in the office of the Township Clerk on July 21st 2024 there's an emergency exit through the courtroom doors two exits at the rear of the room if we need to leave quickly no smoking please um all meetings will be video and audio taped and shown on the township of oceans Community cable channel channel 22 on Verizon FiOS and channel 77 on cable vision all cell all cell phones must be turned off please if you need to make a phone call please make that call outside of the meeting room uh first two things on the agenda are resolutions for memorialization um we need to skip those those are not prepared yet so those will be carried over to the next meeting which is February 20th um so this meeting is to uh to speak about the first French speaking at Baptist Church 2795 to 2797 Asbury Avenue um just for the record all members who had missed the last meeting have listened to and viewed the last proceeding and have signed um uh statements that they W watched or heard the um the ongoings Mark is there anything we need to cover before I turn over to miss Curley see if I don't know if it's on if not I talk really loud anyway so good evening Amanda curle from Dave Pitney on behalf of the applicant the first French speaking Baptist Church we are here today for our fourth hearing before this board with respect to our requests for preliminary and final major site plan approval to construct a house of Warship on property located at 2795 to 2797 Asbury Avenue also identified as Lots 71 and 72 and block 38 on the tax maps uh hustles of worship are conditional use so we require a D3 variance here because we don't need all the standards the only standard we do not meet is minimum lot depth and that is because the existence of a paper Street to the rear of the property we otherwise meet all the conditional use standards there are also a number of minor C variances some of which were at the request of revisions from the board and board commentary um I'll quickly go through them we need AC variants to permit a change in grade to exceed the maximum of 2 feet it's a very technical variance and it's minor and we have testimony to support that relief we also have variance relief for the proposed location of the driveway that was in response to boort commentary and board professionals your ordinance has you have to have within the center oneir and for site distances we were asked to shift it out of that oneir so that's a request another variant that was as a result of board commentary is parking uh when we first came here in January 18th of 2024 we had fully conforming parking plan the board asked us to reduce the parking to the greatest extent possible so we could increase the buffer along shower and drive which we've done so the variance is for 218 parking stalls where 251 are required by ordinance there's also Al um a very minor variance because our Landscaping plan was not prepared by landscape architect but a civil engineer and lastly a design waiver relief for the number of tree Replacements and size uh we've already gone through the Landscaping plan if you recall we've really bulked up the plantings however I think believe we still need a minor contribution for uh tree replacement size um as I stated we were here on January 18 2024 revised the plans pretty substantially and then came back back on November 12th and December 19th 2024 we concluded with our engineer and our traffic engineer so tonight I have our architect who's going to talk about not only the floor plans but the use and answer all the use and operational questions and then I also have our planner who will put on the planning proofs and with that I ma' just just just to clarify just so I have everything up St in my head so the only variances that are that you would have to see if you hadn't ever complied with what the board wanted you to do with effective one to do obviously the D3 for lot with the change in grade and the Landscaping being done by not's architect the rest of the variances are all because of requests that were made by the board yes okay just so the board all has that in their in their head these are these most of these are board created variances because they're complying with your request excuse me your planner is also your traffic engineer he's our professional engineer but we are not reopening our our testimony on our engineer he concluded and he was subject to public input he is here just as a planner he is a licensed professional planner as well understood we just may have questions why I'm asking well if the board has qu if Mr kin is here and the board has questions about Mr Klein is not here not Mr K no the same gentlemen Mr Anderson yes Mr Anderson okay yeah our traffic engineer is not here tonight okay I just remember you saying he was also a licensed planer wasn't traffic it was our engineer so our civil engineer back in back when you could when you were an Engineers uh several years ago you used to be able to check a box and then you became a planner too oh did you I'm very impressed um but so Paul will be doing our planning testimony but we've concluded on his engineering and I would not I do not want to open him up to any potential cross-examination great and with that I have Robert dully who's our architect if you'd like to swear a in and get his um credentials sir do you swear a testimony about the give would be the truth the whole truth but the truth you got I do and just state your name for the record Robert G dly Jr did you spell your last name d o o l e y and you are a licensed architect state of New Jersey yes since October 1994 thank you go ahead you don't have to vot okay great all right so I'd like to I'm just going to introduce you to the project I'm going to take I'm going to tell you who the who the church is I'm then going to tell you um the surveys that i' I've taken with them that identify the building use then I'm going to walk you through the building I'll then go over the elevations with you and um I have a few exhibits that will be uh the renderings of the building and then we will uh that'll conclude my test so uh the first Haitian Baptist Church they uh um their mission statement we take we take Jesus Christ as Prophet priest king give ourselves to up to be saved taught and ruled by him we admit in the church which is the body of Christ born again Christians to whom baptism and ministered in the name of the father and the son the Holy Spirit we commit ourselves to the Lord's great commit to go and preach the gospel to All Nations we are here to reach out to others to grow as followers in Christ and go forth in Ministry and service that all may know God's love revealed in through Jesus Christ now that was their mission statement their vision statement what does this have to do with the architecture of the building it lays the foundation for who they are and why they want to do it but I understand but you're the with all due respect you're the architect okay so why are you testifying as to their mission statement he's also representing as to the applicant's use because he has worked intimately with the applicant in order to go through the hours of operations the needs um he's going to be talking about what days what kind of uses are on the property and he prepared the building use document that was submitted with the board outlining all of that all right so he's not just testifying as an architect he's also testifying as as what the applicant's representative as a representative of the applicant yeah I'm happy to hear it because I know nothing about the church anyway I didn't know I didn't know that he was I he was presented just as the architect and this has nothing to do with architecture don't take so if he's also testifying as the just the arit come as he walks you through the floor plans he's also going to be walking you through the uses of everything and the hours of operation and and this the like that's fine okay this is a the you're wearing two hats it's fine yes the vision statement the first French speaking Baptist Church is a place where Believers become disciples Jesus Christ equipped and engaged in worship study prayer evangelism and social involvement so that's what they're going to be using this building for all right so let me walk you through the building or actually I'm sorry uh the building GS the church meets on um and I believe you all have uh you all have a copy of this document I do not no I believe submitted with the application do you have extra copies I think I do I have no doubt it was submitted with the application but that was like over a year ago so oh is this this is the old packet I had for her have two copies I don't need one I can he has right this this is this is still good this one yes that's it okay that's it you got it I I do not think we need to mark this as an exhibit if it was submitted you shouldn't and I don't know if Mark marked it when it was you and when you get back can you tell us what it was what it is I I don't it was I have a list I have a list of of the exhibit this was not one of them this was submitted with the application materials it's not so why don't since why don't we Mark Amanda saying Miss curle saying it was not marked in and she has a list so why don't we mark it in since we're referring directly to it A9 yes is that part of it okay so it's a statement stat he just read so let's mark that in also so a a not A9 let's do the mission statement since we just went over that and then A10 is going to be what is A10 the building use description description another copy the use description um on May 20th 2024 they hi Claire you ready what's the date on it yeah I don't know if Mark marked it in now am saying that I didn't see it in the transcript but that was the floor plan that's different yeah so Claire I I don't Mark doesn't Mark in because it's the way I mark Mar so it's Poss he does this as so he probably marked in everything as A1 yes okay but but let's just mark it in as a let's just because we're referring to it separately with this the building description is a building Ed building descri I apologize oh not a problem go ahead go yep right so the building uses is related to this design right so after surveying the church coming up with their needs I then we design the building and this use is how it relates to these floor plants and this building so the sun I'm sorry the Sunday School meets between 8:30 and 9 a.m. in the basement there's seven classrooms 94 to 100 children eight teachers uh basement multi-purpose room uh can also handle 50 adults at that time because they also have adult Sunday school Sunday Sanctuary service 9:30 a.m. to 12:00 noon one service each Sunday Sunday and holiday Services they okay Sunday Sanctuary service 9:30 a.m. to 12: noon one service each Sunday Sunday and holiday Services could have as many as 466 total attendant uh Sunday service in the sanctuary also serves it serves every Sunday Christmas service New Year's Eve service Easter Service and harvest service attendance breakdown 450 adults including choir children and visitors six Pastor Elders six deacons on dut four sound room and video tech people 36 choir and that's those are included in the 450 when they do have the when they the choir is singing they will sing they will come back to their seat in the sanctuary and sit with their family um so it says children teachers adult Sunday school attendees are included in the 466 at 10 class during a portion of the Sunday service average Sunday attendance 316 persons adults including choir children visitors and that was for uh 2023 I believe it's still around that same number they did lose um they did lose people during covid parking required according to civil engineers and Traffic Engineers testimony Sunday so that's just referring back back to it Sunday evening adult Bible study so on Sunday evening from 7: to 8 8: to 9: varies basement multi-purpose room 30 adults all right then weekly Church use the church office 5 days a week Monday through Friday 9:00 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. typically in the office One Pastor two Elders two administrators estimated 10 visitors per week weekly leadership meeting office conference room one day a week afternoon evening pastor and five Elders deacons meeting office conference room bi-weekly afternoon evenings 10 deacons all right Deacon all right lead a deacon is is somebody and I'll talk about this later on uh they typically serve the needs of the Church community including members and visitors on Sunday or any other time the church meets as a body needs maintenance of the church facilities they basically they police the building every Sunday there's always a group of deacons on for security reasons to watch over the grounds watch the lobby and take care of any any problems that might occur inside the building hopefully there aren't any all right they their worship team practice uh again the sanctuary has a platform where the worship team would be on Sundays uh they they practice the sanctuary and sanctuary and the sound booth are used for that one evening a week uh Saturday or Sunday evening 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. six musicians vocalists two Sound Room uh tech people choir practice Sanctuary sound and Booth are needed for that two evenings in the week prior to Performance 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. choir performs first Sunday of each month Christmas Easter and the heartest celebration orif or 15 times a year 36 choir members six musicians two Sound Room choir practice 24 evenings a year so it gives you the frequency of they're not there all the time they don't perform every Sunday um youth group multi-purpose room Friday 6:00 p.m. to 8:00 P.M 50 youths including youth pastors small group teachers teaching 12 to 25 congregant every every other week evening 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. small group prayer 6: to 12 congregates 3 days per week Tuesday 10:00 a.m. 12:00 p.m. Wednesday 7:00 p.m. 8:00 p.m. Saturday 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. health screening this will be in the multi-purpose room it's the first Saturday of the month it's open to the public public attendance 30 persons um these are old older usually older people they have six nurses one doctor it goes from 8:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. Food Bank Saturday 8:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. excuse me open to the public attendance varies church has 4 to 10 volunteers to run to run it depending on quantity of food available yearly uses wedding wedding Formal large meal two times a year Friday Saturday Sunday 192 seated at tables Max eight servers eight kitchen staff total 208 I'll get into this a little bit more detail in a little bit funerals two times a year Sanctuary sand Booth is used for that worship team for musicians one vocalist one Sound Room 25 to 100 congre visitors potentially larger Church conference Sanctuary sound booth multi-purpose room visiting Pastor preacher teacher one weekend a year so that would be someone comes and visits from another church they come and do a conference at the church for a weekend so and they typically are Friday evening teaching 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. followed by coffee in a multi-purpose room Saturday 8:00 a.m. breakfast multi-purpose room teaching 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. lunch multi multipurpose room teaching 1 p.m. to 2: p.m. so the days are broken up for both of these you know between preaching lunch teaching so that would be over pretty much a two-day period summer Bible Camp Vacation Bible School multi-purpose rooms used for that classrooms Parking Lot 2 weeks 10 days during the summer 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. 100 to 150 campers teachers counselors tent for barbecue and the parking lot also they'd be using the the kitchen for that I know my church we we do something similar we make lunches for aln uh they're a they're a Christian group and so they would be making lunch for the kids and the using the the kitchen for for that all right now also the building would be used for emergency or disaster use or relief for church and public short-term storm shelter for food distribution center for disaster relief team accommodation portable showers would be brought in for local work utility staging area this is very common after Sandy a lot of the churches did this they're also open to do the same thing so let me get into a little bit more so I'm going to get into the building now and I'll also talk about some of these things with the building so um per um the UCC IRC at the 2021 state of New Jersey uh building code section 10 104.5 areas without fixed seats so I'm going to talk about unconcentrated tables and chairs mostly the the multi-purpose room because I know that that's going to be something we're going to discuss you're allowed 15 square feet net in and we have a 4,400 ft multi-purpose room that room could accommodate 293 people there's no way when I laid down tables and chairs so Bob we whatever you're showing them has this previously been submitted this yes this has just to be just to be careful what was the um architectural in as part of the exhibit and as part of the main packet you want to mark it in separately architecturals I think so cuz I'm looking at the transcripts and I have a different list that you so why don't we mark this as a11 A1 are the architecturals we're good yes all right so right just say what sheet it is this is a sheet a 101.1 thank you so I've laid out I've laid out the the downstairs a basement this building two ways um but we just look at this area for now in the event of a a church dinner that they would have um an event where they would have food conference over a weekend where they would set up tables and chairs for people who would be there this is the maximum layout I can get in that room excuse me for purposes of the video U you have to hold that close to your mouth okay I'm sorry thank you so again per code I can I can fit 292 people in this this space it's just not going to happen all right this is already maxed out so so we're not going to meet that meet that code what's our number I'm sorry we have 92 occupants and eight servers possible in that space all right that those are 5ot tables eight people at a table I know I set up tables like that all the time at my church all right so the sanctuary I'm going to talk about that also but I'll talk about that in a minute I'm going to go to the building entry do we Mark each each sheet or it's all part of all part of the plan set is the plan set that the board has is colorized or is it separate Is this different I think it's colorized all right so the version we have then is all part of a11 you just have to tell us what sheet it is this is sheet a1010 okay thank you and just to clarify Bob the multi-purpose room is in the basement the multi-purpose room is in the basement and this is what we're looking for this this is the first floor this is the first floor but we'll get back to the basement in a little bit so I'm going to walk you through now to the right of the sheet and you have kind of a an area that's floating over to the right that's the sound room up above the bathrooms that's that area there all right so that's up above the lobby area so you come into the lobby when you come into the lobby to the right there's a deacon station to the left there's a reception station to the right there's a coat room right to the left is an area to the lower part of the page where would be our handicap uh a ramp entrance and an elevator that would go down to the basement you have the men's and women's toilets then you come in to the sanctuary Sanctuary seats to 450 people then in front of the sanctuary you have a platform and the platform steps up to where the choir is you on the bottom portion of the platform you would have a Podium then you'd have chairs for the elders and the pastor behind them would be the choir behind that is a white space that allows the pastor the elders um children from below who would come up say if they had a Christmas program and they wanted to come up and do a program they come up from the basement but they can come onto the platform from behind not from the front like the yes pastor and Elders again come from their offices to the front of the platform so and then there's also a choir room for dressing they have a bathroom and there's a studio for musicians to practice during the week right the church offices they have a conference room a work work room two staff two Elders offices pastor's office all right so I'm going to go back to the um to the basement so we're looking at a 101.1 again correct I'm sorry give me a minute please all right I want to address the uh the multi-purpose room the multi-purpose room is a true multi-purpose room um if if I remember back to to Mr Klein's traffic testimony there was it was brought up they mentioned a banquet hall it's not a banquet hall this is a true multi-purpose room the reason why it was called a banquet hall was it it didn't fall into the land into the trip generation category that the state has am I correct or that that was a testimony this is a this is a multi-purpose room 9 90% of the time this room is going to be used for the congregants for the for the Youth in the church for play for youth in the in the lower wing the classrooms for for adult Sunday school I need and that's what this room is going to be used for it will occasionally be used for a large meal we have a commercial kitchen and that kitchen has to be rated and certified as food food safe it's important you can't use it the the kitchen for any other reason other than if it's certified for that and it has to be inspected by the local health inspector most churches all have to do this and just to confirm the kitchen is not going to be open to the public it's not going to be used for outside events it's only going to be used in connection with church Associated events correct can an outside entity rent rent the space for the church it's it's an insurance issue right so if the board approves it that' be a condition of approval that that the space cannot be utilized by outside organizations occasionally what they would do though is if they had sister churches or other churches come in for a conference they would share the space but the church would always have jurisdiction and have control over the space they would not rent it out okay so now let me just ask you because I know it's very common I just want to be sure we're very very clear on this it's I know it's very common for churches for instance to let like um alcoholist anonimous operate within the church that happens a lot that's obviously not a church activity it it are we saying just so you you are not caught up on something in the future are you saying that that would never be allowed because that would be an outside organization utiliz in this space I don't think that would trigger the use the kitchen the kitchen FR of the Govern and coffee okay um so so when when you're saying it won't be utilized by outside Services you're you're you're you're referencing solely with use with the kitchen yes okay so kitchen cannot be used but the space might be used by outside organization but it would be like what you just reference it would be like an alcohol Alx Anonymous or a uh it associated with community outreach that is you know yeah but those yeah those typically are they wouldn't rent the space to do that that would be that the church would give that to them to do okay all right so now I'd like to uh do you have any questions about the building use or the building layout the layouts the only question I had I think was answered that um if the church wants to volunteer and let an outside community service use that they can um and uh that but it would not be a rental be involved for doing so correct I I would I'm pretty sure I can I can I can give testimony to that I know the chur well enough if they had a group like that that was a uh a recovery group or a service group I'm sure that they would uh there's still Logistics you have to go through there's still insurances a church has to to make sure when a group comes in that they cover they're covered for anything that might happen and usually the church has to provide supervision for also for that they would have to have probably they would have members of their staff we we do the same thing that would would be there to in case something came up with the building that they needed to deal with you know lights didn't work something happened okay so but that would that's that's a typical function and of that's a typical way that that would you would move through that right so if I wanted to call the church and say Hey I want to have a party in your church and I want to rent it out for X Y and Z that would not be allow I think what you're talking about is nonprofit service organizations correct correct okay thank you but no there's no intention to rent out all right so I'd like to then if if that's that I'm just going to go over the the building elevations and just announce the sheet this is still oh I think this is no these up there these are new so these will be A2 is that all the same thing or are those multiple it no they're all different how many of them are well they they look the same how many are there are four8 12 is a series of four renderings correct now if you look closely and I'm sorry the the um the quality of the photo didn't come through the way I quite wanted it two are exactly the same they do look at one is actually brick the other other one is stco got it all right and you can start to see the subtle difference all right the church right now we're we're going back and forth of course they have to come up with a budget this will be going on a long time if they can afford the brick they want let's do this and I'm sorry if they're not if if one is like option A and option b then let's not mark them all in as a12 oh all right so so a so a12 is you're saying there's four there's four boards there right two one brick and one stucco so A2 will be the brick and a13 will be the Stu all right so two of them are of Stucco and two of them are a brick correct so 812 will be the bricks will be the brick version and a13 will be the stule version and the church has yet to decide which they're going to use because it's going to depend upon price in the future that's what I'm hearing okay but it will be one of those two yes and then we're referencing the elevations which were previously submitted they would be exhibit a11 sheet a102 Z I'm sorry 101 102 1020 okay these are slightly different oh this is different these are different okay all right so these are color elevations color elevations and they're noted um option one bricking the ifs and option two so A14 is the is what the color elevations stucko or brick that's all stucko A14 with stucko okay and then so a15 will be brick so that we're now looking at option two which is Brick or am I not misunderstanding or am I misunderstanding what option two is stuck up option two option one on the other side is Brick okay so A4 was brick 815 is stuck out yes I'm G to put that on okay so we're going to try now to what just let's pause for a second while we try to figure this out on our side they give them back I ass this is Brick this is that's brick yep you got it right okay just look closely yeah I can see so this is a122 yeah bre think that's all right be white brick that one you're looking at is stuck but the white in all the pictures is stucko no matter is the red right yes the white is stucko in all the pictures the M the main body of the building will be stucko the the it's the front office area that faces Asbury Avenue and then the back entry area that faces the parking lot they're either going to be brick or stco but the color palet is going to remain the same so the building um meets our height requirement it meets all of our setback requirements I've walked you through the building this is what the church has chosen that they that they like um I'm willing to take any questions yeah you would have anybody have any questions Jim do you have any questions so they prefer brick if they can afford it that's yeah I think we all would so brick is the preference rck is the prop Mark's ready will'll ask the public for question ready okay any members I have one question can we talk about the uses too now yeah sure I have a question about the wedding use would it be outdoor weddings would they all be indoors yes it it could it could be outdoor okay yes they could absolutely put a tent in a parking lot around a portion of the site and have an outdoor wedding okay do they need extra permitting for if they do a temporary tent anybody know I think they need yet you can't do that as a right temporary probably youa have to get some type of special permit in order to do that it's the same with barbecues and all those same typically they're they're permited and you have a fire fire person uh inspector come they'll inspect grills don't inspect the facility they'll make sure that they have fire extinguishers you know it's it's common all right so so if the board approves the application the condition will be if outdoor I know you already have to do it but I'm going to make it right in the resolution if outdoor events occur uh proper permitting would have to be secured you agree with that yes and that's the same for the Bobble Camp right are they cooking out I was just going to ask that question yes it would be they cook Outdoors too you need Outdoors for the yes you do and it's just two weeks out the summer that's it just that's that's what I was uh that's in my surve to the yes do you know what the dates are for those times like what what months they are I I do not July thank you middle of but you know that that that's a guess you know that they decide to do something in June it's not going to be in the resolution they you only can do it in July of course not I I do have one question and I don't know if I missed this in my review or not but I noticed there are facade signs on the church and I don't know how critical they are but they're not permitted by the ordinance so that would be another variance so we the church is permitted to have a monument sign that's 20 square feet and uh at least 15 ft from the property lines so noid are permitted I'm I'm sorry 60 squ foot Monument s okay yeah so do you want to eliminate the facade signs yeah eliminate the fa all right so uh plans will be revised to remove facade signs that's not permitted okay any more questions I have one more question just just to be clear so for the summer Bible Camp would they need to re uh get permits to have the Bible Camp since it's going to be outdoors I think only in the event that they have it Outdoors they could also do it indoors without perit right but if they do it Outdoors they would have to get a permit if they want to put a tent up yes what if they don't want to put a tent up and they just want to have I don't think that anything can restrict them from sitting on the grass and no of course yeah I'm just asking the question and also um will they be Reon any type of outdoor pools for the for the camp or anything like that they don't do that thank you any more questions members of the board does anybody from the public have questions come on up please Claire is going to put that microphone back up over there if you go to the microphone sir I'm just going to swear you in yeah so so can we just make sure Mr karowski I I know I know you're representing some ofers tonight can we just get the names of your of of your clients so that we don't have duplication my name is Ron garosi I'm an attorney with offices in red B New Jersey I was present at the first hearing with regard to this application I was representing uh Miss Darlene Sandlin uh that came a point in time when she chose for different reasons not to retain me further during the subsequent hearings but she did contact me today and I am here this evening representing her I believe she is the owner of property immediately A J to the property question so that's your only client is Darlene sandin Pardy is that your only client yes it is okay thank you thank you so mark that means his client won't ask questions Mr gazari will ask questions samin is not allowed to comment unless she's put under she's put up by Mr gazari she can't ask questions and she can't comment so all right s I'm just going to swear you in um I don't know if we have previously or not but do you swear any testimony you're about to give would be the truth whole to something but the TR s God yes just state your name for the record Boris lisc I'm sorry Boris lisc could you spell that please l o v i s e k and okay what was the first name Boris b o r i s okay go ahead and what's your address 216 cian Springs Road okay thank you thank you I have two questions please uh first is there going to be any kind of bells uh in the church church I know there's no Tower but you know electronic bells that would ring every hour something like that like other churches have yeah you know Boris that's not something we've discussed um okay I'm not sure okay I I can find out real quick all right if there's any bell ringing going on and my second one this can me find that out of yeah I mean I don't think there's any Bell on the plant no no Bells no BTS no BS okay and my second question is about the summer camp uh you mentioned that they let like 150 kids out at 400 p.m. that was something like 150 kids get out of the summer camp at 4 p.m. onto goes until yes it goes until 4 400 p.m. and then they would yes there would probably be pickup for those children at 4 p.m. in the summer but did they do a traffic study in the summer that's that's not my uh my expertise because I don't know if you know but Asbury Avenue it's one Lanes each and in the summer it's a different board there so so this goes back to the same thing we discussed this at the last hearing this property is zoned for this use so traffic becomes very difficult to bring into this conversation because of the fact that it's it's anticipated that there's going to be traffic associated with the church and the township decided traffic and the township has decided that a church is appropriate for this site okay they're not here for a use variant saying hey we want to put a church where a church isn't allowed the church is allowed on this spot so the offsite traffic becomes very difficult to bring into the conversation okay Miss Curley U on the heels of this p is individual Boris I forgot your last name and I butcher it if I said it on the heels of boris's question I'm going to ask something I know your traffic expert is not here um I I just want to say first of all that I think the mission and the vision statements of the church are absolutely beautiful and I'm so glad you read them I knew nothing about them and it was beautiful to hear um the community outreach elements of the church the food bank the health screening also I mean what the church does for their own community and then clearly the community at large also just beautiful things that they're going to do not just for the O the church but the people around the church and in the greater ocean area with that in mind the something the board would like to ask clearly you don't have to do it we would like to have you take back to your traffic expert and your client um if you would consider during these higher traffic areas when the churches um let out and when the um the camp is let out if you would consider having them have a police officer directing traffic um I know right now it's designated for right turns only um people are not going to just when they make the right turns they're going to make u-turns they're going to turn in people's driveways they're going to go down streets and and make u-turns there is nothing to prevent them from doing that it's just going to be a big problem this is our greatest concern I we all know it's designated for this use we know you are not here for a use variant but we would like you to consider having an officer at these high traffic times directing traffic so that maybe people can make the left turns and eliminate this broader problem of um the u-turns I don't think they're able to make the left turn just because there's going to be a pork chop structure this it's right it like yeah this is and the the Ingress egress is the county jurisdiction so we're complying with the county comments you went back to the county and said to them if we had a police officer could you change that no we've tried with the county the count so the driveway is the county we just think they decided on this plan and then punted to us with this larger problem that they didn't even think of our community and and now our community members are saddled with I mean these we don't I mean it's not that nobody wants to welcome the church here because like I said the idea is beautiful it's just the broader concern is who's going to drive a mile and a half down to go somewhere and then come back let me ask this question if would you that that as a condition that you will work with the board and the board professionals and possibly trying to convince the county to eliminate that requirement and and and and if the county says no that's life but but here's the thing the the county hasn't heard from the board and if the board if the board if the board puts as a condition that or makes it very clear in its resolution if they approve the application we don't like this we understand the Count's making you do this but we're asking the county to reconsider this we we would talk to them on your behalf and and we go with you hand in hand and ask the county to get rid of the and if the county says no Then then nothing changes I mean it's no harm no foul but maybe the county will listen if there the town coming with you right maybe being local members of the community and maybe people knowing local because that's one of the pro that's one of the problems with County approval is that the county does the approval in a vacuum without talking to anybody in the town and and they look at it as from a county perspective they don't look at it from a board perspective which actually knows better about what's going on on site that no but I I cannot make this determination right um I I we're not finishing tonight so you can discuss it with your clients I just don't see how your client is injured by doing that if it's if if you're going with the board and the board professionals are there saying these are the reasons we don't like this please County change your mind and let us do this because it doesn't it defies logic why why they're requiring it they have their own logic but it but as the board's saying here and I don't think it's I don't think it's just Lisa I I think it's more board members than than than her have sh concern abely we had this discussion before I would like to let you know I it is a concern because I of course we would never want to deny anybody from worshiping their religion or doing anything that they want to do I'm in favor of the church and I like the church I I like their mission statement I like everything about it but we also have to take into consideration and we know it's not part of your what you're looking for but we do have people that live in the neighborhoods and we want to take into consideration because we all live here and when you have you know 142 cars leaving at the same time driving throughout the neighborhoods not knowing the area not knowing the speed limits kids are outside playing there there's a lot that goes into play here because this is a time where families are home because it's Sunday it's also my day of worship I I worship as well and you know when you have that much traffic driving through neighborhoods bad things can happen and we don't want that to happen we want to work with you and we just need you to consider it that's all we're just looking for some consideration the other point is you have right across the street you have a church you have the monu Academy I'm very familiar with both of those two sites for years and I only know ever of one accident occurring involving either of those two uses on Asbury Avenue those are things that could be pointed out to the county and might very well be able to change their mind particularly it might be other individuals at the county that might be in a better position to make a decision and and let's be clear here I want to be very very clear for the record when the board says that they that this was talked about it was up in the caucus prior to this hearing which is open to the public and adverti so it's not like they were having private conversations at time I I also want to point out that um we fully understand that the County's going to have ultimate say in this and the board can't deny an application over something that the countyy is directing the county has jurisdiction over it and the board gets that we're just asking for your cooperation of going back to the board and again at the at the County planning board the County planning board I'll say it again if they turn us down you would continue with your normal approval assuming the board approves the application so it's really there there's no skin off your applicant by agreeing to to work with us on that it just creates a better traffic plan the way that I think everyone here feels would be better I think the congregant too what I think would work better for the Cong I also I AG I think it would work better for the congregants as well easier okay um M girl we we're not trying to put you on the spot this again this is County jurisdiction so I would reserve my right to get back to you yes on that because I just we have the advantage that Mr gather ask is here tonight if you want to consider that the loan advantage of it for you is that is that we're coming back another day so you can give us that answer at the next meeting okay okay all right just the board highly encourages you to go along with that suggestion we just want all the community members for the church and the greater ocean Community to come in together as instead of starting out on perhaps an adversarial process you can do that we we see if the county will let us do left in left out with that we want to be involved in it yeah because that's my whole point is I I think I think you are almost better served if the board has voted I don't want you to waste your time the board votes down the application don't waste your time because the board's not going to deny the application based upon this okay but but I I think I think what it is is that we're asking the board will put into its resolution assuming that they approve the application that this is our preference all right and and again if the county turn so we want to walk in uh hand inand with you to make this plea to the if if it's just you it doesn't read as it doesn't read as strong it reads a lot stronger if the town is with you asking for this not to happen because a town again is looking at it from a local level with all the constituents in mind where it's a Count's in some county Vacuum but we also need to have some sort of cap for us because like what if they're like put in a put in a light and it's like hundreds of thousands of dollars I understand so I we need to put in some reasonable it's got to be reasonable they're not ask we want we just want to work as a partner to to see if it's a possibility because again the board the County planning board considered this in a vacuum without any consideration from Talking they looked at it with trip generation they looked at their standards and they said this is what we require when you exceed this number yeah excuse me we can't have people talking in the back because this this hearing is being recorded okay thank you I will get back to you after I speak to my client and I you know honestly I was not the one to have the conversations with the county so I am not equipped right now to give you an answer fine we're not asking you to yeah we're just emphasizing how important it is to the board because they're looking out for the best interests of the community as a planning board no in this case it's only and knowing what the church does and how they serve the community too and what they want to do for themselves and how much good they do are there any other questions for Mr duy yeah any questions from the M come on up sir so let me swear you in do you swear any testimony about to give will be the truth the whole about the truth God I do just state your name for the record Jeffrey flacker and just by last names F like Frank l a k k r and your address please seven Sharon Drive okay go ahead um first thank you for the comments on the on the traffic because that's my biggest concern but back to my question um for weddings you mentioned 200 seated dinners I believe but then for the multi-purpose room you said you can only seat about 9 92 or 98 it was 192 so but you just said you can only see 92 so where's it no if if that's what you heard I apologize you can see it's on the drawings and it's here yeah make sure the record's clear it's a good question I heard2 I heard 92 also it's 192 all right and then um regards to outside activities if you had an outside wedding with 190 people where are they going to park I I I think we'll agree to not have an out a reception outdoor wedding correct is that what you're asking will you mention you may and then if you're using the parking lot for the tent and the and the wedding then where do the people par so that's all part of the reason why they would have to go get separate permitting to do something like that because the town presumably when they're considering whether to allow a permit is going to want to know where people are parking and and if they can't answer that question they're not Town's not going to issue the permit so that would be directly tied to the permit for that day yes okay thank you to add on to that can we we talked about this before can we put a stipulation that there'll be no overflow parking Sharon Drive yes I'm as a condition of approval I'm fine with saying there will be an overfall parking on Sharon Drive thank you that was an easy one thank you do we need to clarify the record on the number what are what are yeah you might as well just be very very clear on what the numbers are for for the multi-purpose room the multi-purpose room it would be 192 occupants eight servers eight PE eight occupants in the kitchen that would be maximum all right 192 seating eight servers and how many eight eight staff yes in the kitchen thank you where s i testimony about to give will be the truth the whole truth but the truth salty God I do just state your name for the record Michelle mck and M a e o n hold on you're ahead of Michelle is Michelle with one L or two l two L's two L's and spell the last name again MC capital k e o like ocean n like Nancy okay and what's your address I'm protected by um Daniel's law so I can tell you okay now you don't have toe um I think everybody knows right with that um I just have um some more questions about can I am I close enough um the kids for the the Vacation Bible School um do the kids get dropped off or are they busted in think it's a both it's both okay we can't so we can't have people giving answers from the from the audience if you don't know the answer just say you don't know the answer and we'll stop we'll get the answer well I know it now it's spoke okay um I I would imagine I know what you're talking about outside is it is vacation bible study predominantly an indoor activity with some outdoor activity or is it more like for two weeks there's going to be 150 kids having a summer camp outside it's it's mostly indoor right but they do occupy the outdoor spaces for like a portion of each day or for like yes okay um is it generally in the afternoon portion or in the morning portion that I don't know okay um um at some point it was said that there's like two funerals a year or two weddings a year or maybe both is that accurate that's based on church history that's typically what they they can have they basically said we can have two funerals a year we can have two weddings a year of course it could be more you know they could they could end up having five weddings and no funerals but it would be but historically speaking there's not like a wedding I know Mr I actually spoke with the I know mon test I spoke with the the church today typically most people today do not want to have a church like do not want to have their reception in the church so most people do destination or they rent out a facility last year they had two weddings is it just you're referring to weddings as wedding receptions or they have ceremonies at the church and they have two wedding receptions now wedding ceremonies are different I do not know how often they those occur and then you don't know if they also occur if it's like a afternoon or an evening service I think it depends on when you're getting married like I got married on a Friday afternoon some people get marries on Saturday some people get married on Sundays okay um about how many of these conferences are there each year or with the new facility do you anticipate their being they have one one uh conference scheduled a year it's a it's a larger conference they bring people in from the outside they come in and teach and preach um there there could be members depending on if they just they would get a preacher who decid they like him they would bring him in for a weekend to to talk but it's not the frequency isn't high that and it's still just an indoor worship and then yes that's all indoor murp room and then I the um Amplified sound and speakers I know there's an audio room for the speakers inside the church are there any speakers mounted to the exterior sure or not um for vacation and that can be a condition that there be no amp Amplified Sound Outside correct I mean what if we're having like a barbecue and we get special use permit we want to have music the no Amplified Sound Outside absent a special permit that's fair is that I'm sorry is that special permit for Amplified noise or just are you saying a special permit at all sir if if a special permit's issued if they they're going to need a permit to do an outdoor activity so if they're doing a a permitted outdoor activity then then Amplified sound would be okay because that'd be part of the outdoor permitted activity okay all right what this does it keeps any of the um it keeps them from having normal outdoor sound going off and and annoying everybody they would also have to meet the requirements of the town for time time it started time it ends how loud it can be okay it's now for the purpose of the Town ordinance for noise would this facility count as a charitable organization that's exempt from all the noise ordinances in town so that's how the ordinance reads it says charitable that the ordinance reads that charitable organizations don't have the sound the sound but but the noise from the the music from within the building is exempt I I I don't know I don't know if that's what the ordinance that's a very weird ordinance if that's what the it's a weird ordinance that's why I'm asking do you know are you worried from within or from outside both I mean and I understand obviously outdoor noise is going to happen sometimes monor has a graduation once a year we hear all the kids I mean I understand that that there's some level of normal outdoor noise at a facility at a church and things like that right I'm it's more just the frequency is what I was more asking so if you're saying then the special permit the permanent activity the outdoor speakers would have to be listed on their permit application if they were part it would be part because they've already agreed that if they do an outside activity uh they're going to have to get a special permit that doesn't include just kids sitting on the grass that you know they were clear about that we're talking about something significant that they would need a per the the outside noise would have to be included in that now the indoor noise if there is something that says in the in the township ordinance what what what you're saying there's nothing we can do about that because that's what it says and again the property zoned as a church so so that would fall into the I guess if that's what the ordinance says if there's a state law that governs noise and how much noise can be exist at the property line different times of the day and that's what would govern I think the the ordinance references the state law and now Services I would when there is noise for you know or music or anything with the p the doors are all then closed I would imagine they and I found the ordinance section if you'd like me to reference it I'm curious It's 3- 3.4 exceptions nothing this chapter shall be construed to apply to church bells or Chimes or playing of bands or orchestras in a hall or building owned or operated by charity organization in a manner which will not annoy the peace comfort and quiet neighboring inhabitants or the municipal County state or federal government agencies in connection with any emergency or noral working activities of or sponsored by the township Council or to warning devices on vehicles used only for traffic and Public Safety purposes or asally permitted Andor required so that's subsection C of 3- 3.4 exceptions but but it says an exception as long as it doesn't annoy the public the matter which will not enjoy will not annoy the peace comfort and quiet of the neighbor and and Happ you're still entitled to quiet enjoyment and that comes first that but that's a little bit different than what you said I don't mean exemp completely but yes not at all because if they're sitting there and I know they're not doing this but they're putting on like a rap show or something and it's just really really loud and but and bass is booming I'm not interest I'm not interested in calling the police every time the music's on or I'm just kinding of get an idea of what's coming that that's really what what to prepare for so thank you for that Clarity was c not problem and then the the other the new ones that you had would the public be able to see those at any point tonight the new R render clire has them CLA so yes go ahead thank you sorry just a quick question as we're talking about outdoor noise um I don't know if you talked about you waste disposal private contract R soon will come in normal working hours not like 5 a.m. like a 9:00 a.m. is type of thing I think we dressed this on November okay all I just it came up I was just thinking about it did just want to make sure okay so I'm pretty sure this was addressed by our engineer in the November meeting date if you want to give me a minute I can try to pull the no don't worry about it it was address for good and we placed it too somewhere right out of the way of I think we actually we had relocated the dumpster from the January meeting in order to that I remember specifically that was one of the provisions that we were made it wouldn't it was out of everyone's way I remember all of this M do you swear any testimony about to give will be the truth the whole truth I but the truth s be God I do just state your name for the record uh Mary gain Mary yes and what spell the last name d e s a n e and your address for of place for what up in place up thank you go ahead so my question refers to the uh prohibiting the Overflow of traffic on Sharon Drive and so up in place is another little CAC within Sharon Drive will that include that as well um I'm not that's not my testimony how about we won't do overflow parking on this on like local roads or residential roads if that makes yeah they're not allowed to put yeah you're not allowed to put overflo parking on on public roads I like that yes spring that would include any public road okay thank you any more questions from the public you you swearing testimony about to give will be the truth the whole truth about the truth self of God I do just state your name for the record Nick Lordi L di 13 Sharon hold on L di yes and your address 13 Sharon dve go ahead um with respect to the questions that were brought up regarding use um typically churches will have bylaws and um also permissible use agreements and that may be useful for uh if the church has one so that we can see what the permissible uses are um with respect to traffic I know we already covered traffic last week or last meeting however there were some things that were brought up today that we were not privy to last time we uh had the traffic study for example the food bank every Saturday which attendance varies um also the summer Bible camp in the middle of the summer um as I recall the traffic study uh was done in just the month of June um it didn't address the peak hours on a Saturday um or during the summer so I'm only bringing this up because we can't really close here here's the whole problem we can't close traffic with this new information here's the whole problem with the whole traffic argument the place is zoned for a church yes so we can't the the fact that there's traffic that is going to be associated with this use is irrelevant correct because from from a zoning perspective because they're allowed to have a church there I understand they're allowed to have a church but the traffic will be impacting Sharon Drive as everybody would be coming through sh and drive understood understood your point but we can't deny an application based upon the fact that that that people think it's going to impact the traffic on Shon drive because the places the property is permitted to have a church I understand that um so let me ask you this question um regarding D variances for inherently beneficial uses is not a D1 use variance which is all that would apply for an inher you said that in it's a D3 okay and it's a D3 which is a conditional use variance which is solely deemed a conditional use which basically means it's permitted to have it for for the use but there's one condition it doesn't meet and the condition it doesn't meet is that it doesn't meet lot with lot depth I'm sorry lot depth so therefore they need what's known as a D3 which is a much small which is much low standard than a D1 use variance which is what you're talking about when you start talking about inherently beneficial uses so that's so inherent beneficial uses are completely irrelevant let me ask a question does the board take into consideration the detrimental effects uh that the grant of the variants will have with on the community itself the neighboring any any variant you take in the uh the negative impact but it's got to be related to the variant yeah that's so so so you have to somehow say the fact that they don't meet lot depth somehow contributes to the detriment to the area and I think that's a very high that's a very difficult thing to establish so in other words you're saying that the impact of traffic um onto the community including shower and drive um there's nothing that can be done that's not directly related to the variants that they're requesting what they what they the board has to look at is what is the reason that variance and then is there any detriment that's related directly to the variance that may C uh be inconsistent with that reason and traffic is is not an issue there okay meanwhile not withstanding that the traffic is not part of the variance at all clearly your board is trying to work with the applicant and address which apprciate right and they've agreed to some conditions already I mean they agreed to the No No R Street no u-turn signs at the top of Sharon Drive they've agreed to no overflow on any public Street um we're hoping they're going to go with us hand inand assuming the board approves the application to the county and ask that they eliminate the the no left turn Okay so we're trying to the board's obviously taking traffic very seriously but but it it is sort of limited in what it can do on the traffic front Okay uh if you could look at no through street is I understand it's not part of a the Ocean Township uh traffic regulations and it would not be enforcable since you would have to put that sign up on Asbury Avenue and you would have to have advanced notice that Shon drive is not a through street so you do want to do put that in I believe you'd have to talk to the county about getting that sign on sh on Asbury Avenue to provide advanced notice well that that's that's not necessarily true a no through traffic sign or a no u-turn sign can be installed without advanced warning of that sign but it would not be able to be enforced is what I'm saying well yes it would have to be enforced by the police department and and if if you know say the the plan is approved and that a sign is installed and if if you know you see traffic uh driving through your neighborhood using it as a a through Street uh you can call the the police and and you know they'll send somebody out you know probably at the times that you see it most often and then they would enforce it all right uh but and in to kind of piggyback on what was said before the the tra like the the traffic impacts again are not um related to the variances they're asking for but the site circulation exiting from the site the the driveway is related to the site plan which they are asking for site plan approval so when the board is is kind of um asking for that driveway to be changed from a write out only to a a multiple movements right and left that's uh an impact on the site plan approval so that that's it's it's not being ignored it's just different than than I think what you're trying to get the board to to do okay thank you I just want to note for the record that Mr Klein did talk about the summer camp and the numbers of students at his hearing so he did address that you just want to since you're mentioning it do you just want to summarize yeah Mr Klein says and then then we also did that again there's a summer camp I believe being proposed there's 150 students there we treated that like a school as well all the students would come for a certain time and when I I believe when he proposed the when he said he did the study wasn't that done in June the studye one through June 12th I wrote it down thank you you're welcome so if the summer camps in July um how would that you would really have to do a study of traffic in July at the height of the summer I don't believe the the whole impact this was a question from Mr Klein that you could have asked in in December but I don't believe that there's an IT category for camps I think he did it under the school category which would be operates year round all right thank you you're welcome any more questions from the public Mr kosi do you have any questions or that'll be next next month okay all right can I bring up my planner yeah great thank you good evening hello good evening Mr Anderson is back now he just had surgery so be be kind yeah I seem to do this quite a bit I had this twice during this application I've had surgeries knees shoulders heads and toes or necks I think according to my grandchildren so Mr Anderson if you want to get sworn in we'll give you call well he's already so if he was sworn in and I confirmed he was at the November 12th hearing I'm still under then you're still under Ro you're now going to be testifying as a planner so so just to refresh your memory I have a Bachelor of Science in civil engineering from Clarkson University 1983 I've been practicing uh site engineering since graduation uh approximately 16 years ago I decided to sit for the planner exam and I passed the planner's exam and been the licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey since that point and my license is current as a plan I do testify in front of boards such as this on a regular basis uh as a expert in planning so I do apologize to Mr Anderson because he did more than check the Box all right um are we good to continue yes sir thank you all right so uh oh we know where the property is it's in a regular shaped property uh that has uh both Frontage on Asbury Avenue and also uh TR Lane in the back which is a paper Street and has been indicated as unlikely to be developed and uh so this being uh in the R2 Zone it is a conditional use one of the conditions is lot depth but the problem exists where we have uh this paper Street in the back creates another front yard and then we're an OB there's an obligation to have a rear yard so one of the two side yards what would be typically considered a side yard has to be a rear yard and so at some point the rear yard touches the front yard so the total depth of the lot per your ordinance definition is zert so so if if the paper Street was not there you would not have the lot depth variance that's correct and you would not need the D3 variant and you'd be before the planning board that is all correct okay all right so um just as a point of you know just to get a better understanding the distance on the left side as you look at the property from Asbury Avenue is approximately 289 uh feet from the right away of Asbury Avenue to the back property line it's not a depth by your ordinance definition but functionally it's a depth uh on the right side as you look at it from Asbury Avenue is 750 ft so the average depth at the midpoint is well over twice the 200 fet required uh the way I look at it uh is that the intent of the ordinance is to provide uh proper geometry of the lot proper depth as well as area for a use of this type a qu Qui quick question sure is the paper Street would you describe that and whether or not as it's laid out on the tax maps as it's physically laid out even though it's not developed whether that could ever be constructed as a through Street uh no it would not be constructed as a through Street it does go in and stop uh at a point approximately uh well up to lot 45 which is uh towards the back of this subject property and the right of way width of that paper Street I I believe it's 20t wide so there would have to be additional land acquisition it wouldn't meet any of the standard WIS of a roadway and when I indicated that it's unlikely ever to be developed as a roadway that's kind of what I meant but thank you Mr Higgins for that let me just ask guiding that clarification do you agree with that from a planning perspective I yeah I do agree with that um I think that the width we're trying to check the width right now I think it's a little bit more than 20 ft but it's not the 50 ft that's required I know that okay I can probably find that a minute okay I'll let you I'll not that Mr Higgins agrees with that testimony that the paper Street can never really be developed so it's never going to be a street I I guess is what the point is yeah yeah which you which the board can take into consideration when uh when granting the D3 you the whole point of the D3 is that they have it they have a dep problem because of the paper street that is never going to be an issue because paper street is never going to be developed right like a technical D3 30 according to the tax map it's 34 feet 34t thank you thank you Mr Higgins um so it it uh with all that considered uh the the governing case really for this is the cry Square decision which outlines the variance proofs for the D3 and uh so it is as was indicated it is a permitted use regardless of our ability to meet this condition we don't have to show its appropriateness uh but it has to show that it can handle the the uh problems associated with the lack of conforming to this to this condition uh I quite honestly don't see any problems created by the lack of conformance with this condition we have adequate depth on all the way through the lot you know physically to to build this and there's really no uh no deficiency that's created so I think it meets that requirement quite easily because there is no deficiency associated with uh that lack of conformance to that condition um and it's really so it's really just a definitional thing now um so we I I think we meet that but I just wanted to point out that the that the the with you heard throughout this application that the applicant has gone farther on some on many issues with regard to trying to mitigate other conditions not necessarily with the lot depth but also try to make the impact to the the neighboring properties less the the the biggest being increasing the buffer on the Sharon Drive side from 25 to 45 ft and and providing additional uh buffering Landscaping throughout that entire area I mean probably doubling the buffering area you know trees so we we have uh heard what the board has asked for and and provided provided that uh we also looked at uh at the board's recommendation can we reduce the the parking to so that we could do that additional buffer buffering we had the parking study that showed that the actual ratio of parking required for this church was 2.53 as opposed to what the ordinance says so so we were able to actually uh justify that the the the parking is sufficient based on what we really think we need we still need the variance uh as as indicated for parking to the ordinance but it's but we have gone that extra step and we also have agreed to uh you know only security lighting in the evening to minimize any light issues uh associated with with the use which is is not required but certainly something that that I think is helpful to the community uh so that that addresses the uh the D3 uh there are some uh C variances associated with the with the application I think they're all Justified with C2 uh you know uh section 21-26 uh there's limitation on how much fill or change in grade you can have throughout the site this property the the plan is basic basically at around 2T plus and minus 2 ft throughout almost the entire site there are several sections where it is 3 ft maybe three and a half uh but that's just to you know it's it's very minor in terms of that so I think it meets the intent of that uh we have this plan with with grading uh specifically coming uh so that we can handle the the storm water and it's the storm water control and and positive drainage that we have created that you know that that uh deviation from the plan but again it is very minor uh and I don't see any real negative impact uh to the Zone plan or ordinance associated with uh non-conformance with it by only such a small amount uh ordinance section 21451 13A the driveway location in the middle third now this is again one that was discussed with the uh with the board's professional prior to our making this application or when we first made the application I'm not 100% sure which uh and saying that there was one accident on on the roadway created by uh lack of sight distance uh or insufficient sight distance our initial location of the driveway was in the middle third uh it had adequate sight distance for based on ashto uh however we did move it and then we' moved it back a little bit based on comments to get it away from the property line it is uh 17 to 20 ft outside the middle third but it does provide additional sight distance additional safety uh I don't think it's a substantial detriment it doesn't create any problems to the adjacent property and overall it uh it it provides additional safety so uh that one uh in particular I think the benefits outweigh the the detriments uh in associated with C2 uh and it's something that we were requested to do uh ordance section for parking we have uh 98 spaces required based on our 2.53 uh and we're proposing 28 So based on our numbers our calculations uh for this for this site uh based on the the parking survey done for the church uh we have adequate parking for even full attendance days so um but that does not mean that we comply with the ordinance the ordinance requires uh 20 uh 250 where is it 2 251 parking spaces based on on this use so we do need that variance but I think based on uh our work with uh the parking study you can see that the impact of not having that number of parking spaces is uh is is diminished and it also in terms of what it does on the positive side of the equation it it obviously allows us to have additional Green Space less impervious coverage and so forth um the landscape plan prepared by my office uh has received some positive comments from the board planner who has reviewed your your uh landscape plans and uh we have agreed to work with him uh in the field to make field modifications based on what trees might be saved and so forth and uh so I I think that the impact of my Horticultural uh doing the plan for this application is also not a significant uh impact and uh the fact that we can provide additional plantings and work with the board's planner I think is is very positive uh and then as mentioned the tree replacement plan will require a contribution to the to the tree fund uh there's no way can finish fit all of the trees needed on site we have added as many as we possibly can but uh but I uh but I think that it's it's uh we have C that impact down significantly from our initial application um so I think the C variances and the D variances all can be granted without subst without substantial detriment to the Zone plan and ordinance this is an inherently beneficial use and I I think there's a lot of wonderful things that they'll do for the community and as I just went over all of the negative impacts are relatively minor and many of them are things that we've worked out with the boards and the board's professionals along the way to try to make this a better application and that concludes my testimony thank you Mr Anderson question from the board U Mr Anderson if the applicant is agreeable to going back to the county to talk about the uh the entrance and the the um exit um would you need flexibility on the exact location of the driveway meaning would you might might you want to go back to the middle third I I don't think I would want to go that way um you know uh because that the middle third is is reducing sight distance and making left turns would be probably creating additional uh need for additional sight distance so it could we use addition flexibility I think that if um we discuss it um the with the applicant and they want to agree to what has been suggested I think all the flexibility to make whatever change to to get it to work would be appropriate but I wouldn't recommend going further to the middle I Mard what you said very thank you any questions from the board members do we typically Grant variances for the not having a certified are license a landscape architect yes we will okay you don't have any concerns with that as long as it gets reviewed and it's uh basically worked with the township professionals to make sure and with the environmental commission to also to make sure that it's the landscape plan is acceptable so there's no concern here and that's actually a variance in not a design W yes it is it was certain very good that wasn't my choice when I that way I was I said the same thing thank you for putting so many trees back in you're welcome thank you for this suggestion you're welcome any questions from our professionals any questions for members of the public come on up Sir s to state your name again for the record Boris LC okay you're still under own yes I just have a quick question about that paper Street like is there any is it staying as is is there any plans for the people Street to nothing so nothing can be done with as you heard it can't be developed and the town can't do anything with paper Street other than seed it to an adjacent property owner that's literally the only thing they can do it they can't put benches in it they can't turn into a par so there's no plans for it to like to do it I can explain I'll explain the history because we researched it to find out why it was even there I don't know why it was there but it used to extend from Asbury Avenue Avenue all the way to bound Road okay 34 ft wide and over 2third or probably three4 of it from the end of where it ends by by the middle of the rear of this site all the way to bound Road has been vacated it doesn't exist anymore and there's no way I can see that that a 34 foot wide Road without a cack on the end that doesn't serve any purpose would actually be improved so so there's no plan to like cut it up dissolve it like there was there was some talk about doing it and I think basically some of the people that were adjacent to it didn't want to do it or the council didn't want to do it I don't I don't know what the reason was we tried to get that done everybody has to be on board or it's a council decision and it's not the planning it's not the zoning board decision so so it's totally up to the council and the council decided for whatever reason not to do it yeah okay but I was just but there's no plans I can't see it ever being improved any other questions from the public and so just state your name again for the record you want to go last Mr groski Nick La thank you um with respect to lighting you brought that up um the plant state that lights to remain full brightness until 12:00 a.m. then then to 50% output until dawn um would you consider I I looked up the township ordinance with respect to lighting 21-4 68.6 which states um luminaries must be reduced by at least 50% of full operational levels within 30 minutes after the close of business provided however minimum level of horizontal luminance shall be maintained would you consider following that order un instead of waiting until midnight to lower the lights I believe the the engineering testimony when we talked about lighting was that we would conform with that thank you I'm sorry what was the answer that the when we had the engineering testimony that was agreed to so so you'll comply with the ordinance oh yes okay so liting will compli with the ordinance sure guys asking but you still will have emergency safety lighting right so if happens it'll go on for safety reasons we will comply with all the ORD requirements I believe security lighting is I I have a a condition in my notes that overnight security lighting plan is going to be submitted because there was discussion uh with some of the neighboring properties uh about basically concerns about where the lights are and which ones are going to be left on overnight so that that was uh a condition that that they would submit that okay I just meant I know it gets reduced immediately to 50% but I meant if someone approaches the property that shouldn't I meant EMG the safety lights that turn on right karowski yes just briefly uh reference has been made to this paper Street are you familiar with it I am you know who is the owner of the underlying fee of that paper streak I do not okay so at at the present time there's no testimony before this board as to who is the owner of the underlying fee of the paper Street I yes that I have not heard any okay the tax maps show it to be a public right away pardon me the tax maps show it to be a public right of way well it may very well be a public right of way I don't wish to interrupt you Mr you and I go back yeah I know yes so it would be the township would be the owner well that may not be necessarily so the township may be the owner of the traveled way yes there's another question as who in fact owns the underlying fee which is the land beneath the traffic way it is just got to be an answer to that and you may be right I don't know whether you are or you aren't now next I listened to your introductory comments I want to clarify one are you the engineer who prepared these plans I am okay uh and you you signed off on the plans yes I want to go into a little bit of discussion with regard uh to the paved area my recollection garasi we completed the testimony of his engineering we're not reopening his testimony we completed it on November 12th 2024 okay let's let's say that well first of all I think they would call for a ruling from the board attorneys whether or not I am permitted to I mean I I I tend to agree with Miss curlyy in that that testimony was concluded they had questioning of him as an engineer he's now appearing just as a planner and I don't know that we should be open the engineering at this point in time no I know everybody here for a long long time having said that that I only would request that I'd be able to call at the next hearing my engineer so that he may give testimony of course with regard to the issue of the impervious Sur 100% you can and cently can put on rebuttal test if she wish thank you Mr and I would actually like his father really taught him good I would like to make a request on that because of just of the last minute nature of Mr gazi's request because I got a call ear today I would ask that we are on the next meeting and that we we finish at that meeting if not Mr gazari is free to have a special meeting that he pays for from his client where we can go through well listen we're not we're not going to decide that today okay so so let's take it step by step and we'll see what happens because if there time constraints the next meeting that there going to be four residential applications on that's my understanding but we're going to do this application first is that is that what I'm hearing we're going to do the residentials first we're going to do the residentials first then we're going to get to it so there's going to be time constraints on it and we can't limit him but we're also obviously there's going to have to be some sort of limitation that we're not going to go crazy either so I just asked for the board's consideration because I understand I I don't know how we can force time and expense I I understand that but I don't know how we can force him to pay for a special meeting I also would like to request that there be no emails the day before the hearing that an expert is sick or they cannot appear I don't think the board's going to tolerate uh any any sense that that there's been an intentional delay nor will we assume that Mr garasi would ever do that just but but but clearly the board would not would not support that and and that would not go over very well thank you I have a question for Mr Higgins what is what does it mean the underly fee of this paper Road or I do not know that's a legal term maybe Mark can it means who actually owns the property underneath so so the paper spr goes over the property but theoretically someone else could own the actual physical property I don't know what the relevance of that is because because it would be to notice they're entitled to notice based upon whatever the 200 quot list that was provided to them so whether it's some other entity who happens to own it it's it's not going to affect this application right far as I'm concerned and it could also be the town that owns it it also could be the town which I probably would think I would assume it's the town that's what the answer would probably be okay thank you come on up just state your name again for the record Michelle mck and m c k o n you're still on your road I don't know if I'm supposed to ask you this or not it's just the timeline for construction I don't know who which expert that is is I know the timeline of how long you know on the original plans that would have been the engineer and we're not going to reopen the engineer so so let me let me just say this well well it's certainly a fair question to ask although I understand M C's saying that the time for construction really has no bearing on the application it might be just something you want to know from personal personal interest but the board can't approve or deny an application because construction is going to take longer or annoy people so that wasn't the purpose I I know I'm just clarifying that for the record okay okay 14 months no I know how long it's going to take I just didn't know the projection of you know if if it passes when it's thing when it's started yeah and I I from what I understand it's going to start when they have the money to start it because I have a feeling that money is an issue at this point I know spoke after the meeting about s and I just didn't know if if I can ask that now you uh I mean I can put this we spoke she asked about putting a fence on a completely opaque fence which is against your ordinance requirements so I said that that would require a variance I'm not inclined to Grant to to request another variant to have a solid fence because I believe what you propos in the front yard a long shower and drive the properties that are a long show and drive yeah that those are you could have a six foot solid fence there oh you can yes okay that was just something that we have discuss where I said is that something that that the church would be open to we will look into that he's writing it down thank you and you want to the next meeting I'll let you know at the next meeting this me just remind us at the next meeting I'm sure you will thank you uh good evening I'm sorry I forgot your last name Anderson thank you well you first were introduced I believe uh I didn't catch the fact that you were also the engineer design PL but you you designed the plans and engineered all the testimony that you could correct again Mr gazari were closed on the engineering I'm not asking him an engineering question I'm just asking whether he did it I prepared the site plans for this application as an engineer that's correct and you also came here today testifying as a planner that is correct so you're basically critiquing your own work aren't you no no plenty of Engineers both are you T no I'm correcting you no you're not you you are you have reviewed you prepared the plans and now you're critiquing your own work and you're approving it are you not you're not advis in anyway so mrowki we'll let it we get your point he can answer the question if he wants okay I'm waiting good Okay I uh I am reviewing from a planning perspective how the variance es requested uh meet the positive and negative criteria associated with the municipal land use law to further granting of these variances fact that I actually understand the project more intimately because I did the site plans probably makes it a little bit easier for me to do that however it is no way a critique to say I really did a good job on that part it is it is something where and and there has been discussion in my testimony where I've said to the board we've worked together to make this a better plan and that is that is just because we've been sitting here in the same room together talking about it and I and I will say Mr garasi as you well know as the board well knows from having been here on numerous applications over the years it's very very common for the engineer the applicant engineer and and planner to be the same person incredibly common yes well it's I make one response to that uh it's not uncommon for a planer who is within a company to review the plans of an engineer from that company here he's reviewing his own plans I not reviewing that's his opinion I I disagree with him well I disagree with him because I believe if you're a planner from the 70s and 80s you were also an engine yeah so it's very very common extremely common very common the board knows that but as noted and I I correct my mistake Mr Anderson did take the test and passed with flying colors with flying colors first first time no box any more questions from the public last question can I just say your name again for the lordine um with respect to construction and I understand you can't force them or make them do anything but um one of the concerns we and the community has is funding that construction starts site plant starts um taking away all the trees Landscaping but then funding runs out so is there what's typically done from the board's perspective so what happens is is Bond yeah they're gonna have to bond with the town okay thank you thank you any more questions from the public any last questions from the board all right so you're concluded I included I just want to confirm that we're going to be on February 20th without further notice correct so so we need to carry this to the we need a motion to carry this application to February 20th without further notice do we have a motion to carry make a motion to carry to February 20th without further notice that be that could be an all in favor y all in favor hi all right so that everyone in the audience is aware this application is being carried to the February 20th meeting in this room at 700 p.m. without further notice meaning you're not going to get new notice you just need to be here on February 20th at 7 p.m okay thank you thank you very much motion to adjourn second motion to adjourn all in favor any opposed