##VIDEO ID:lAwdRIodh28## we will call the meeting to order and if we can have a roll call please yes yes yes yes present okay we can stand for the salute to the flag I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all okay okay the notice requirements of the open public meeting law for this meeting have been satisfied a copy of the notice having been sent to the Asbury Park Press in the coaster and filed in the office of the Township Clerk there is an emergency exit through the courtroom doors and two exits at the rear of the room there will be no smoking no new cases will be started after 9:00 p.m. and no new testimony taken after 9:30 p.m. in addition the applicant will be limited to 45 minutes of testimony all meetings will be video and audio taped and shown on the township of oceans Community cable channel channel 22 on Verizon FiOS and channel 77 on cable vision all cell phones must be turned off if you need to make a call please make your call outside of this room we have the October 9th 2024 minutes for adoption and I will offer believe I was here hopefully yes I believe I was um all those in favor I any opposed okay the November 12th 2024 that one I may not have been here for I was here okay I'll offer all in favor I any opposed okay following cases are carried to January 16th 2025 needing to re notice I A A Services LLC 1418 Highway 3 5 Ur 07755 Zone 0140 I aat Services LLC 922 Highway 35 ocean 07712 zone C5 our uh first continued case is the first french- speaking Baptist Church block 38 Lots 71 and 72 2795 2797 Asbury Avenue Ocean 07712 R2 two um attorney is Amanda Curley the applicant is seeking preliminary and final major site plan approval to construct an approximately 14,960 bulk variances are also required and for the record um we had two board members who were not present but they did view the recording um Mr caramanica and who what's The Other Board member Mr ashkanazi so for the record they did View and statements um have been signed okay Miss Curley good evening Amanda Curley from the law firm of Dave Pitney on behalf of the applicant the first French speaking Baptist Church we're here tonight for hearing number three on this application as you're aware it's for prelimary and final major site plan approval a D3 and several SE variances to construct a house with worship on property located at 2795 to 2797 Asbury Avenue also identified as lot 71 and 72 in Block 38 as you've heard by way of testimony we require a D3 conditionally use variants for failure to meet the minimum lot depth of the conditional use standard that is it we meet all the other conditional use standards and the reason we don't meet the minimum lot depth is because the irregular parcel size and shape as well as the existence of a paper Street to the rear of the property which BAS basically makes it impossible for us to meet that minimum lot depth then there are some minor C variances some are actually because the board requested them for example we scale down the parking so now we require a parking variance um we were asked to move the driveway so there's a variance for the location of the driveway uh there's also a very minor variance for from your ordinance that requires that a landscape architect prepare the landscape plan when our just licensed uh engineer prepar the landscape plan and I believe that might be it by way of variances oh I'm sorry there's one more variance for great change um again that was discussed by our engineer Paul at the last meeting and he will be back he actually had just had knee surgery so he'll be in the January meeting to give you all the planning proofs but for tonight I brought our traffic engineer to go through the parking study he did as well as the traffic study and I'm hoping to get through him tonight and if we have time we also have our project architect here but let's start with Mr Klein Mr Klein do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay and if you can just tell us about your credentials certainly still read that yeah I tried to just talk loud oh it's on just read that uh my name is Lee middle initial D is and Daniel kleene kle i n I'm a professional engineer in the state of New Jersey my license is is current in a good standing I'm also a nationally certified professional traffic operations engineer and that National National certification is also current in good standing uh I've been accepted as an expert uh as a traffic engineer parking analysis uh expert in well over 100 boards throughout New Jersey some of them in Ocean County uh Red Bank planning and zoning boards uh I've done work in Highlands as well as alen Hurst for the burrow okay we will accept great thank you uh Mr Klein can you please please go through your traffic report and um parking study certainly so I prepared a traffic engineering and parking evaluation report and the date of that report is May 1st 2024 and in that report uh we have some assumptions that we use to do our analysis we assumed based on the um architectural plans 450 seats in the congregation for a total of 502 total occupants that includes 36 choir seats six pastor and Elder seats six Deacon seats and four people working the sound and video board and this traffic report's not been marked in has it no it has not um so what's Mark it in since he's going to be discussing it as exhibit I believe we're up to A8 I believe so yes I said the traffic report dated May 1st 2024 thank you thank you go ahead I'm sorry Sly go problem so U also within the uses of the proposed Church there's going to be um some Sunday School classes that are going to occur before the Sunday worship SE uh times um there'll also be some other functions within the building as well some parties and things like that so what what we did to do our study is I placed or I didn't I had a a company put a traffic recorder in the rubber hoses across the road in front of the site on Asbury Avenue to collect two-way traffic volumes we summarize that traffic volume every 15 minutes and we did that from Thursday June 1st through Monday June 12th I believe schools are probably still in session at that time uh and so we get typical traffic volumes for our use in our analysis that Thursday through Monday included uh I believe two Sundays in there uh for our analysis of the Sunday as well so I went through all the traffic volumes and I found the different hours of the day when there' be operations at the church picked out those hours like I said I had two choices of Sundays I picked the highest volume Sunday 9 to 10 is when uh students would be arriving for their uh or before 9: to arrive for the Sunday school before the church then the 10:00 Church session which goes till noon we have the hour before the 10:00 and then afternoon noon to 1 for the people leaving and then like I said there are some others as well so in order to do the trip the analysis we need to do the trip generation trip generation we use the Institute of Transportation Engineers trip generation manual and it's in the 11th Edition and in that are different uses one of the uses is the church itself based on the number of seats we also have uh what we used was private school with 100 students that was used to calculate the trip generation for the 100 students that would arrive for the Sunday school before the service uh and then we also did that again there's a a summer camp I believe being proposed there'll be 150 students there we treated that like a school as well all the students would come for a certain arrival time uh and then banquet hold uh there's no it category Institute of Transportation Engineers category for uh Banquet Hall but New Jersey do has a category Banquet Hall so we use the trip generation for that and then like I said I I summarized the hours that I needed to took it off the uh automatic traffic recorder volumes on both directions of Asbury Avenue put them into a little spreadsheet diagram then took the trip generation from those different uses at those different times and then analyzed I think 10 or 11 different hours of the day of the week where the uh Church would be active so just to let you know some of those things were um just the church operation itself during the week Monday through Friday 8: to 9: in the morning some employees will be coming in 2:30 to 3:30 I was told that they they' work a short day that was the exiting traffic for them uh we also looked at the banquet hall arriving between 5:30 and 6:30 on a weekday actually on a Friday uh we looked at the banquet exiting traffic between 10:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. on a Friday then we looked at Sunday school like I said before 9:00 so 8 to 9 hour the volume coming in then uh then from 9:00 to 10: when the rest of the worship people would come in the congregants that don't have children in the Sunday school then we also looked at uh the the exiting when everybody is leaving after 12:00 from the Sunday School students as well as the congregants that are in church and we also looked at a Saturday banquet 6:00 to 7:00 p.m. would be the start time uh 10: to 11:00 p.m. would be the exiting time and then like I said I looked at a summer camp during the week 8:00 to 9: in the morning and then 4:30 to 5:30 in the afternoon and we did that analysis and that analysis um was based on originally we had a full movement driveway we had left turns in left turns out back on September 27th Paul Anderson and I our civil engineer had a zoom call with Mammoth County and Mammoth County explained to us that they'd like to see a right turn in right turnout driveway so in that case then we're eliminating the left turn movement in the left turn movement out those are the most conflicted movements a left turn out has to wait for both directions of Asbury Avenue a left turn in has to wait for westbound Asbury Avenue traffic before they can make their turn so by having a right turn in right turnout the right turn in just free flows in the right turnout just has to look over and see westbound as Asbury Avenue and has to find a gap in traffic for that to work so what I did is I analyzed that same the worst peak hour which is the Sunday 12 noon to 1 p.m. with all the traffic making a right turn in and all the traffic making a right turn out and the level of service for that right turn exit was a level of service B with an average delay of about 14 seconds so that's a very good operational condition so if I'm getting that for the highest volum volume on Asbury Avenue for the highest use of the site then it's safe to say that I'm going to get levels of service b or not on the rest of those hours so Mr clein just to clarify sure uh level service B is quite good correct what's the highest level of service level Services go from uh a through F A being around 0 to 10 seconds uh 10 to 15 or 20 seconds I believe is the B so we're in a really good location for that but again it's only a right turnout so that would make sense to me that for the right turn volumes out looking over their shoulder looking for a gap in traffic to make that right turn out that it wouldn't take uh more than an average of approximately 15 seconds we also so yes so we did all those analysis then we also did a parking generation uh we looked at the parking numbers that the ordinance requires and we looked at it parking generation numbers and we also went out and did a survey of all the current congregants of the church and we got back 123 surveys we got 306 attendees in that 123 surveys and those 306 people drove to the church and they parked in 118 cars so doing the math we have one vehicle for every 2.59 people so when we do the math and we take if all 502 seats which you'll hear from the architect and probably some others that the the choir people sit in the choir but they came from the audience so they're in the audience in the 402 seats they get up to sing in the choir and when they're done they come back so you really can't double count the 36 seats of the choir because they're they're there in the 402 uh and uh so again I did the highest number the occupancy of 502 people at 2.59 just as a correction of 5502 seats yes what I 402 you keep saying 402 it's 5 502 oh is the total oh I said 450 plus the other numbers oh adds up to 5 I'm sorry 502 yes yes right I'm sorry you're right let me start over so right we have 450 seats in the congregation the 36 for the choir seats six for the pastors and Elders six for the deacons and four for the video that adds up to 502 total seats andan you're saying 36 of those really AR new seats because the members of the choir would sit in the general population and then when they go to sing they stand where the choir seats are they sit as needed when they're singing and then they go back that's correct yes so I took the whole 502 at the 2.59 people per vehicle and that works out to be 194 parked cars so that would be the worst case if every seat in the church was occupied on a Sunday and they came in the average rate that they've been coming to the church today that would be uh 195 194 Park cars and we're proposing 206 parked cars to which satisfies that number again worst case scenario we also looked at crashes along uh that section of Asbury Avenue we looked at from January 20th through May 23rd there were that was 3 years and 5 months roughly uh we found a total of nine reported crashes near the subject property uh and we didn't find and this the manual of uniform traffic control devices gives us some guidance on Crash analysis so if we see five or more crashes that are let's say all left turns making a left turn at a particular intersection if we see five of those in a 12-month period then we have to look at that as Traffic Engineers and try to come up with some solutions to improve that situation whether it's better signage phasing of a signal restricting that left turn whatever it ends up being so in this case of the nine crashes that we got in that three and almost and a half year period of those nine crashes we didn't see five or more of one particular type that we would be uh concerned about a particular movement or particular way the traffic is Flowing so I don't see a condition that I need to uh look at any deeper than that um for the aess again like I said we met with the county back in September on a zoom call and we're going to do a right in right out driveway that's what the county said they would approve for us uh the location of the driveway I think you heard Mr Anderson last time that we're supposed to be within that onethird sweet spot of the frontage of the site and I think we're off by a little bit I remember the numbers being something like 75 ft instead of 62 or something I don't have it in front oh we're not in the center one/ third of correct we're not we're off by yeah 20 less than 20 18 and that requires a variance correct yeah and I believe that we have offered to put it in the center but your professionals prefer it slightly off center I think it improves safety and improves the sight distance there with with the the profile of Asbury Avenue I think we're at the pretty much the highest spot so that site distance is not obstructed at all um yeah that's oh all right so now if it's a right in right out movement then people coming from the West can't make a left in people that want to go East can't make a left out so those people that want to go East are going to have to make a right turnout and use the public streets to make their turns to end up going east and those people that are arriving from the West will have to arrive in such a way that they're coming around the block and or not the block but coming around on the roads to get in so that they're heading westbound to make the right turn in and I looked at some maps uh for that and I don't know if I brought that with me I have them on the computer I think uh I don't have them with me but I remember being um they' have to use Green Grove Road there we go thank you thank you I have those yes so again if instead of making the left out they'd make the right out they'd go down to Green Grove Road make the left at Green Grove go down Green Grove to uh Route 66 and then come out and Head East on Asbury Avenue if they were going to make the uh left turn in instead of making the left turn that was the exit are these are the same you got the other one I'm sorry the same so okay so then the other one is instead of making the left turn in they'll have to go again if they're coming from the West go down Green Grove Road Green Grove Road to Route 66 then make the left turn at I guess bone and then make the right turn into ASB so it's less than two miles out of their way uh it's it's like an extra mile to go east bound and I think it's like an extra mile and a half less than a mile and a half to come from the other direction so it's not that uh that out con inconvenient and it's a destination so if this was a convenience store and people couldn't make the left in you know you're driving along you're not going oh there's a church I think I'll make a left turn in these are people that are coming here for a particular purpose so they're going to know okay when I go I have to orient myself so that I'm making a right turn in and when I leave I'm making the right turnout I have to orient myself the right way to get out of here so uh I would say that because they're going to be repeat congregants coming it could be an occasional guest but I'm sure if the church would they could put some kind of directions up on their website or they could provide information to their congregants or any guests that may come to explain to them here's the best way to get to our site to make a right turn in and when you're ready to leave here's the way to get out and head back East uh Mr Klein based upon all the it data you collect CED that's in your report with the trips in trips out with the various uses that will be associated with the house of worship can you state that the pro church will not have a negative impact on traffic operations yes like I said before the worst hour that I analyzed with the right turn in right out uh was the highest it was everybody leaving for uh a church service at afternoon and that was a level of service B with about 14 seconds of delay to make that right turnout and can you also State the appr church will not have sign ific impact on the traffic operations of Asbury Avenue that's correct yeah based on the number and the volume of traffic and the level of service that we got at the driveway I don't believe it's going to have a significant impact on traffic in the surrounding area can I ask a question on on this issue because I haven't seen the traffic report oh okay have you analyzed for your for your worst case scenario right in right out at the end of the service how many will be going east as opposed to how many will be going west how many will be take taking that East down to Green Grove and around and other words the percentage of the congregants that will be going east or coming from the East during the beginning of the service as opposed to those to the West it seemed to me it would be heavily loaded to the east at this point right well I I based on the traffic volumes on Asbury Avenue on a Sunday between 12 And1 it was almost equal about 426 cars from 12 to1 going eastbound and about 400 One cars going I'm talking about the people coming right I'm getting there chur yeah I'm getting there so then what I did is I did the distribution of the 130 trips coming out uh about 60 of them were going to make a left and 67 of them were going to make a right now all 130 are going to make a right so approximately half of them would make the turns and go back East is that based on the current congregation the location of the current congregants it it's based on on the volumes of traffic on the road it's based on just the general take into account where concrete correct it does not live because it seems to me if the church is in Asbury Park at this point in time most of the congregant will be coming from and going back to the east that will be heavily loaded in that direction okay and I'm just wondering if that's the case how that would affect your opinion um well I still think there'd be less than a hundred and that's what Traffic Engineers look at they look at 100 or more peak hour trips so if this 130 were to come out all making a right and 99 of them would make this left turn and head back East that would be less than a significant impact to that intersection and there are other ways to go depending on exactly where you want to go when you're leaving if you want to go back to the parkway or if you want to go back to Route 18 or depending on where you want to go they'll disperse so uh I would say that based on the volume I'm not seeing any concentration that would require an analysis of another intersection nearby okay um and you would also state that the right in right out only is the safer option here than having people making left turns out that's correct um and then can you also based upon everything you've studied do we have sufficient parking do you believe that the parking is sufficient given the survey you took yeah so based on the survey uh we found like I said about two a little over 2.5 people per car and that ratio works out to if you take all 502 people at the church at any particular time we're looking at about 194 cars that would be parked there for them uh and we're have we have 206 so we have a little bit of a cushion there and again I would say the 36 people that are in the choir are already in the seats they're not double seated uh in that situation so I don't think they'll ever get to 502 they'll get to 470 something uh if they at at the most yes I actually want to address that and in your report you kind of do the worst case scenario correct oh absolutely I admitted that earlier yeah 502 is the the highest number of people that could fit in the building and that number is really only for Sunday service probably would only be for Christmas Easter that kind of a thing it wouldn't be for a typical Sunday service a typical Monday Tuesday Wednesday Absolut yeah exactly right all those other uses generate a significantly less number of trips like I said uh you know a banquet Saturday night 50 cars coming in uh when they're leaving 60 cars coming out a banquet so yeah all the other uses within the building are going to generate a lot less than a Sunday Serv I just want to clarify we're not having a banquet use he's using it for the traffic I'm sorry yes that's the technical ter we're going to have our architect go through the the project and the uses and what's but it's not going to be like parties and what like we will speak further of that there might be one or two events but not every Saturday night are we going to be hosting a banquet he just used it for his traffic analysis to give you the worst case scenario I want to make sure you uh you have a total of 218 spaces is that 206 the 218 is with the EV credit credit okay with the EB credit a 218 with the E Credit and you said the max you think you'd ever have there 194 194 and just for your knowledge we were actually asked to we had more parking we were asked to remove parking and conduct the survey to give a realistic a realistic number on how many parking spaces we needed and the reason for that was by eliminating parking spaces we were allowed we were able to make greater buffers to the residential areas so 194 you believe is the max 206 you're actually providing but 218 with the credit correct yes okay thank you and then also be mindful that some of the concrete is are children so the children are driving cars obviously to the the site um and that's all I have for Mr Klein if the board has questions okay questions from board members just had one question um is there a no left turn on Asbury Avenue in front of Sharon Drive I don't believe so so what's stopping someone who's trying to turn left into this property from continuing towards if they're let's say they're heading east continuing to Sharon and using that culdesac as a as a U-turn to get back in and make the lawful righted ter right so like I said we're going to explain to the church is going to explain to the congregants that this is the way you have to get to the site if you're coming from the West so they'll have to make their their loop around to do that and we're going to hopefully you know tell them they want to be good neighbors and we're asking them not to do that although it is a public Street and that movement is legal but we're going to discourage people from doing that okay all right thank you any other questions from board members okay questions from the public oh I'm sorry well Madam chair I I just wanted to kind of reiterate that question because I I have a similar um question or concern um I wouldn't say want to restrict left turns into Sharon Drive because the people that live there make that left turn um what you may want to consider is putting a no u-turn sign uh on Sharon Drive because that will uh stop people from going in there driving 50 ft and doing U-turn and that would not be you know what uh somebody who lives in the first couple houses want to see is you know SE several people doing that every every Sunday so that may be something that that you want to consider okay anything Mr okay questions for Mr Klein from the public and please keep in mind their questions and if you can state your name and your so can I question where were you propos this so Sharon Drive which is um the street to the East do they own that no it's a it's a street yeah so how could they put well it would have to be something that is reviewed with the township engineer okay so we' have to go before the town and ask the town for that but if the town says no you can't hold them you can't hold them to it they just have to make the request to the town yeah just to just to keep things clean because you can't require them to do something with the town said no you can't do it sure all right no no u-turn sign AR and you're agreeable Miss Carly yes okay no u-turn sign now would be pending Township approval it would they would have to apply to the township and ask the township if they can do it if the township says no it has no bearing on an approval if the board is inclined to give the approval because you can't hold them responsible for something the town says no we don't want to do gotcha okay hi uh Nick Lord I 13 Sharon Drive ldi let me I'm not sure sir since I was not here I'm going to assume that I'm just going to pretend nobody's been swor in yet sir do you swearing testimony can you raise your right hand please do you swear a testimony you're going to give this evening will be the truth the whole truth only brother the truth help be God yes I do all right thank you and just I'm sorry state your name one more time Nick Laur spell the last name l r Di and your address please 13 Sharon Drive 13 Sharon Drive thank you go ahead I like to follow up on the comments with respect to sh and drive um but are they questions yes they are questions so does uh the audience and the people understand that show and drive is a horseshoe so people can drive all the way through so you no u-turn is it going to make a difference they'll just drive all the way around and come out the other side um with respect to the traffic study um when you were talking about people coming West Mr let's just take one thing out of time Mr benon based upon that comment yeah yes it it is a a horseshoe it's a municipal street so there's nothing stopping anyone from driving a long chair and drive but putting a uh a no u-turn sign there would uh give people the who don't live there and don't know that it's a a orho it would tell them that they you know can't really make that that movement that you're inclined to make if you're just trying to turn around to get to the church okay okay um sir could you please clarify when you were talking about the traffic flow and you said the traffic coming from the West um you said that it will go up to Green grve Road I believe is what you stated uh Green Grove Road is not West is not east of the church so they would have to go to someplace else such as shower and drive or another Street to make a turn to come back to make a right turn into the church so can you please clarify what the traffic flow would be and what the number of cars would be going through Sharon Drive if that in fact is what your traffic flow is based on so I was talking about anybody that was coming from Green Grove and West so if they were on Asbury Avenue West of Green Grove uh those Jumping Brook Road which is west of I'll call it any of those people would have to go to Green Grove Green Grove down to Route 66 come in 66 make the left on Asbury Aven come in and then make the right turn so where would the where would the traffic flow be for traffic coming West on Asbury Avenue as a passenger the church and cannot turn into and cannot make a left hand turn into the church I think Mr Klein is saying they would have to get there a different way they wouldn't go along as so your expectation is that folks will not travel West on Asbury Avenue get to the church eastbound so if they're coming from from the West they're traveling eastbound East sorry when they get to Green Grove they're going to be told by the congreg by the congregation that they need to use Green Grove Road to Route 66 back up to Bone and then make the right turn in make a left on Asbury make a right into the site so the expectation is they're going to take a do you know what the distance is yeah it's about a point uh mile extra to go that way the mile extra to go that way from from the Green Grove Asbury intersection back to the site correct so the expectation is that the congregation would not use showon drive that they would follow those directions is what you're stating correct okay but I want to clarify that is not what you used to calculate your traffic report that expectation when you did the it you didn't put this specif Pacific route in well I did the right turn in right turnout analysis of the driveway so I assumed when they made their right turn even if they wanted to go back to the east they had to use these other roads to go back East do you believe it's reasonable that people would follow that and not turn around shower and drive which is just 100 yards past the church some people might use Sharon Drive but I think that if people are told the right way to go to come here they'll be able to use Green Grove 66 and Asbury Avenue to come in the correct direction like I said about a mile out of their way did you conduct a flow of the folks that are coming from the West can you give us a number no I don't have a number for that okay did your traffic study consider the church across the street as far I mean the traffic church across the street from this proposed site plan right as far as the traffic volumes that I counted on Asbury Avenue it included whatever traffic from to and from that church on that Sunday so you counted the cars coming out of the church across the street as well no I counted the cars on asberg Avenue okay at what point on Asbury Avenue did you count roughly in front of the site okay um who are you working with in the county oh we met with um Vince Cardone Victor I can't remember Victor's fman act thank you and there might have been one other person there but I can't remember it was a zoom zoom call uh did the township have an opportunity to review the study and what you've been doing with the county uh well they reviewed the study that I had that was a full movement driveway and then now based on our conversations with the county I made it a right turn right right in right out has this traffic study been submitted to the township so that yes citizens can go see it the original stud original study is May 1 it been on file since June July June July maybe August but it's on file with the bo secretary okay um your traffic study was done during June um have you considered conducting in a study during the July and August time frame when traffic backs up on Asbury Avenue especially on Sundays um typically we don't look at the odd months of the year you know we're going to look at June through September we're not going to look at the July August because it could vary depending on weather conditions well July August that's the largest impact on Asbury Avenue and my concern is that you need to really look at July and August to have a true understanding of the impact on the locals right but the level of service analysis for the right turn in right turnout uh probably if I doubled the volume of traffic Westbound to to conflict with the right turns out I'd still end up with acceptable levels of service okay you um stated that this would have minimal impact on traffic in the surrounding area um can you clarify that yeah because we're generating like I said the worst hour of the week is the 12 to 1 p.m. on a Sunday when church services are letting out we're looking at and it has numbers of 126 cars coming in and 130 cars coming out I'd say that's pretty conservative because for the most part everybody's already there and they're leaving I think the church uh trip generation numbers include people coming for another service but in this case it's really the 130 that are going to be leaving in that one hour some people will be hanging around there maybe be a meeting after church or some socializing a little bit so that's one why I'm not concerned that it's going to be an impact like that because anything that does back up it'll back up on the site okay um last question you stated that you would encourage the congregation not to use shower and drive to go around a different way um what's your how can you base that opinion do you have prior experience with the congregation that they would follow these directions um or do most people pretty much go the shortest route that they can well again based on your opinion yeah again it's it's a public street so the left turn is not restricted in and out of Sharon Drive so if somebody wanted to make the left in the far one or the near Sharon drive as long as they don't make a U-turn if mayor and Council approves the no uturn within the first 100 ft or so then they can go around the loop and come back out and if it was half the traffic that was leaving 65 Vehicles doing that in an hour that would be one car roughly every minute couple of cars every minute if it was within a half an hour and it would be one hour out of the whole week well it wouldn't be spread out over time I would assume everybody would be leaving at the same time right that's why I said maybe two cars a minute for 30 minutes as people are leaving the site all right or entering the site I'm s um one last question with respect to attendance um it was based on roughly 502 occupants yes occupants um could we get an updated um over the last six months what has been the attendance level of the church could that be provided or updated I mean the survey I did is of the existing congregation that was I surveyed 306 people in 123 surveys and then did the calculations I was a little confused between 300 450 that's how many I'm wondering how we go from 300 people in the congregation to a requirement to have 450 or 500 total 52 seats but as discussed 36 of those are kind of double per your ordinance we have to include them because they're technically seats but they're going to be empty then the people in the audience are going to stand up let me let me rephrase it how do we go from 302 to 450 I mean I think there's I can so we we did a survey actually I think we may have done two rounds of survey I can't remember right now but I I prepared a questionnaire and I gave it to the pastor and he distributed it hard copies I believe it was I ended up getting folders back envelopes back with hard copies so I got 123 surveys and the number of people that were in those surveys I asked people do you come alone do you come with somebody else how many people you come with so I did all the math added everything up and that was 306 people in 123 surveys there may have been some people that did not respond uh for whatever reason so to get from the 306 of the people that were surveyed to a number like 450 4470 it's not that big of a stretch I think once they have the new facility people might want to come and join the this congregation can we get an updated attendance over the last 6 months uh on a weekly basis I mean that's not a reasonable I I I don't listen at the end of the day this is a conditional use variance but the only condition being that doesn't meet minimum lot debt I'm not understanding what what the relevance is of what the current attendance is today the relevance would be the building is based upon a specific number of seats the size of the building um and the building could be smaller if there were only a maximum of 300 people but how's that changing the lock the lock de I I'm not asking the lot no but but that's what's at stake before the board is the lot dep yes so so how does the smaller building would allow a smaller building size would allow a larger buffer uh between the building and the residences around which has nothing to do with lot dep the lot de the lot dep is going to stay the same regardless of how big this building is the lot depth is going to stay the same yes and that's the variance which the board is dealing with yes and the buffer does meet the ordinance requirement okay so so that's not an issue before the board there has to be a relationship between the two issues okay and the only significant variance they're requesting is a lot depth and that's only because it's technically a through lot and the definition in the ordinance is that the lot depth is the shortest distance between the front lot line and the rear lot line so no matter which of the one of the two side lot lines has to be a rear lot line so the size of the building is irrelevant size of the building is irrelevant as long as it doesn't exceed the percentage of building coverage that the ordinance permits which it doesn't yes all right so that's within variance uh so basically our hands are tied as far as that issue goes all right thank you any other questions for the traffic engineer and if you can state your name address I'm going to you do you swear a testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth about the truth go I do and just state your name for the record Michelle mcken m c k e o n I'm sorry can you just say that slower m c k e o like ocean n like Nancy and was Michelle with two El or one two and what's your address um I'm protected by Daniel's law if I could tell you privately later okay um now am I to go go ahead okay I'll be brief um I know you said you looked at the traffic uh crashes in the last three and a half years but what's fan of ASB Avenue uh did you get the reports for I think we asked for anything within oh between Worth Road and Shon Drive was that the Sharon Drive the Westerly side or the easterly side uh I believe they probably gave me both cuz whenever they search for the crashes they're looking for the keyword so whenever they see Sharon Drive whether it's the East one or the West one I would have gotten that as well okay so just that portion there and that was from right you got the reports from both Neptune and ocean um I think it was just Ocean Township Police Department okay the um the eastbound Lane of Asbury Avenue Falls within Neptune Township so the number of car accidents that you're referring to in your study might be double I mean you might not have even considered all of the crashes that occur in that span Mr K can update his report okay um now the banquet hall number which I know I'm not going into you on Banquet Hall but that number was just not said um so when when you did the calculations for what what it was you know it was like 100 for summer school 150 for vacation bible school and then the numbers for the service but the number for the traffic calculations for the Friday and Saturday nights there was no number said there I think you'll hear from the architect how many seats are there I mean I can say it's in my report 192 seats in the in the uh that area of the building the traffic study was then based on like how many vehicles for a banquet ball event correct yeah yeah like 192 Vehicles no 192 seats generates a certain number of trips so 2 point something people per car so it's okay and that was using the NJ doot trip generation numbers okay um read um when you add the you know when you switch it to a right turn only at the end of the driveway I'm assuming I also parking lot and stuff are you like parking lot traffic right is you also well volume I mean traffic volumes not the design but I can explain that we meet the design that Mammoth County wants us to do for the right in right out okay so if this isn't you when you add like an island or something there is that widening the width of the driveway where it meets ATB Avenue or we not no I don't have it in front of me but there there's a design standard in the uh Mammoth County design manual and it's I want to say it's like a I want to say that's an 18 foot wide right turn in with the island and then like a 15 foot wide right turn out and that opening is whatever the hypotenuse of the triangle 15 by you know whatever that curb opening is so when you add them up I don't know that it's wider necessarily than a standard 24 or 30 foot wide driveway it's close and I just want to know for the record the the driveway we this board doesn't have jurisdiction over correct the county does correct no I understand I was more just curious as far as the you know the picture of it you know plan um I I think oh the traffic pattern within the lot that's you or not I mean we have 24 foot wide Drive I mean it's more what Paul Anderson said but I mean we have 24t wide Drive AES but they're not it's not one way right the drive the parking areas or is that ask at the next our engineer is not here okay no then I'll ask next time no he's engineering is done done he's coming back for um planning testimony because he's also our planner well then you could ask him next time if he's it's not so I assume and it's 25 24 yeah they're 24 foot wide wide Drive aisles throughout the site um and it's all two-way dve that's what I thought all right thank you sure any other questions from the public you can come to the microphone if you can Mr Lex will do his name and it's just easier to swear everybody in because they invariably always everyone always invariably makes statements so do you swear a testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth about the truth so to God yes I do and you state your name for the record darene sand Darlene M and how to spell the last name s a n d l i n and your address 11 Sharon 11 Sharon go ahead so it's just a very quick question back to the traffic in the area because I live on Sharon so I understand you did the study on asy drive and all that stuff um with the write in and write out the only issue that I have or question that I is when you ask congregants to please don't turn through share and drive so we don't have 130 cars driving around our Circle twice a day at least one day a week it would be it would be question is okay whatever the number is all I know is that I'm new to this area unfortunately I bought a house in share and drive before I knew about this project um and most people I've learned even who live here use GPS because it helps with traffic so people coming from anywhere else in the area are going to say what follow what Siri or whatever their GPS thing is going to say and if they're traveling west if they're traveling East they're going to go to the church it's going to say do don't turn left and they're going to go the first turn and turn around which is sharing right and what I'm saying is these are going to be congregants that are going to be coming every Sunday so they're going to know the right way to go and the fastest way is on sharing question is is there some way that we can I don't know assure that we are not getting everyone turning around instead of going a mile out of their way I mean listen realistically there's no way anyone can assure you of anything so that's kind of my point you came so right that's kind of you just answered my question well it's a logical answer yeah yeah exactly I just wanted to bring it up because it's very disconcerting to think that the fastest way is going to be people driving by my house and whenever anyone's like five minutes late guess what they're not driving the speed limit either and that's that's why I asked the question just to get the logical answer thank you any other questions from the public for the traffic engineer okay thank you can I oh good one other just I just happen to have a thought occasionally I have one picking up on Ben's no you turn question what about I'm asking Ben is both Ben and Mr Klein instead of a no u-turn a no through traffic sign on I was actually thinking the same thing yeah could do that too yeah that's yeah that's also an option it requires work better be an Enforcement issue people would would pay attention to it which some will some won't I'll change it to NO3 tra yeah okay well both because you could if if I see the no through that means I'm making a U-turn so I think it's best to have a both if I that's a lot of signs well that's two signs no through and no u-turn yeah same post same you post can I ask a quick question is if you put up a not through Nick Lordi if you put up a no through traffic sign um is that sign uh enforcable by the local police yes for people that go through thank you all right so Madam chair this is it's 8 o'clock and we we are at our 45 minutes so so M curly the question is how many more witnesses do you anticipate having you only have two I only have two more but we're not we have we can't finish tonight anyway because our planner had new surgery so I'm H happy to do what the board wants I have my architect here or we can carry this without further notice the January meet meeting date and we want to finish you guys up we would like to be been going on you know since January more or less I know it's there was a pause but um so so the question is would you maybe want to do a special meeting in January we've considered it it cost is just a little little much is it going to be more than than if you don't finish in January and have to go to February I can certainly talk to my client and see we'll do a special yes we will do a special meeting is there a date in January we could potentially do it oh wait double check the symbol let's double check Mr Lexing just also keeping in mind just what we've averaged is really just um one expert and if she has two well if you have a special then then it's just going to be them and that's it so we have our architect who's going to go over obviously the architect addition to public comment addition to public comment exactly yeah and the architect will also U address operations and then we have if if we can finish the application if we can finish the application that would that would be the reason why theal yes if we could so we will happy to to set up a special meeting um that's always the hard part after I open my mouth um is finding a date so I think we need to survey the board yeah you're going to need to surve make sure we have the quum what is the the what is the natural January meeting 16th no the 24th 16 16th that's the zoning board oh we are Z thank you for joining us Mr Higgins January 16th is the normal day thank you for penciling us in your calend I mean I seem to be free the planning board day is is uh is what is the 27 okay I have that in here so like I could do I mean I guess we got we don't have the full board here tonight that's that's one of the problems we have a good number I mean I'm free like the I could do the 14th Tu the Tuesday do that work for everybody I think that so do I have to bring all so Mr Klein has finished testimony do I need to bring him back I don't unless the board has question there no other questions for him just your architect and your plan we could do the 14th carry without further notice and if in the event I find out in the next week that someone cannot make it we'll pick a new date and I'll re notice does that I think that's very fair yeah so let's let's plan for the 14th I'm going to carry without further notice and then if it doesn't work out with someone on my team I'll let you know and then I'll notice with whatever new date we pick no no it's it's 5050 it's one of those right is there a day that's better for you or it doesn't make a it's not going to make a difference no matter what we do it's not going to make a difference now until I get my son schedule I'm Mom first so that's yeah of course um but I know Mr Fuller when I haven't been here he's been here you cannot I it's going to fall apart very quickly um okay how about Monday the 13th now the 13th I definitely that that one I know I can't have something the 16th you're already here the 14th it's very probable but just in case I get his schedu delomo can make the 14th he can yes okay we want to make sure we at least have five and and possibly more I'm also good for the 14 okay so that's five if it works for you and our our engineer is good for the 14th oh yeah engineer and planner you've already seen him he's coming back so do you want do you want to gamble for the 14th and yeah okay I mean if something happens I know we need we would prefer the more board sounds like you're not going to get a full board what about the possibility of carrying it to the 16th for the purpose of a defining a date and even if it has to be early February at least we'll get it done in one hearing and we can reschedule on we can schedule the new date on so so then you wouldn't bring your people on the 16th because it would just be for noticing only yes and this way we can survey the whole board yeah that makeone prefer that I'm fine with that yeah okay all right so so just for the does that mean that I have to come on 16 no okay it would just be announcing the date we'll just be announcing the date which hope which will have been worked out ahead of time great so all right so just so the public is concerned everyone over there because I know you guys are interested so just just we just want to make sure you guys are paying attention this application is being carried to Janu January 16th at 7 p.m. without further notice with that said we're not actually going to hear the application on January 16th we're just going to be announcing that day we're only carrying it for noticing purposes it's going to be we're going to pick a date where we're going to have a special meeting where we're just going to finish up this application we just don't know what that date's going to be as we sit here right now so to save yourselves the applicant's not coming the attorney's not coming if you want to save yourself a trip you can just give Claire a call after the 16th and find out what the new date is so like if you want to call the the morning of the 17th and and find out what the new date is that's probably easiest for if you want to come in the 16th you can hear the new date but that's literally all we're going to do on that day is tell you what day it's actually going to be heard all right without further notice without further notice so you're going to need to contact you're not going to get anything further in the paper but I just didn't want everyone to come on the 16th and and to waste your time coming because we're I promise you we will not be hearing testimony on the 16th okay so so thank you so much thank you thank you okay the next case Abraham and Margaret Moser block 76 Lot 2 491 1 South edgmere Drive West Allenhurst 07711 Zone R5 I won't put it in the resolution so now okay applicant proposes to construct a two-story side in rear Edition second floor Edition and install a raised rear patio minimum front yard setback 30 ft required 1077 ft to Second Story front Calver 12.35 ft to twostory side lost my place there addition and second floor addition proposed minimum sidey yard setback 15% of lot width or 14.22 ft required 5.8 ft twostory rear editions and second floor Edition proposed minimum rear yard setback 30 ft required 7.3 ft to second floor Edition 11.87 ft to twostory rear edition 13.81% of total lot area permitted 33.1% proposed accessory structures including patios must maintain required 10t rear yard setback 3ft to raise patio proposed minimum driveway sidey yard setback 5 ft required 2.55 to Extended driveway proposed and Jennifer crico is the attorney for the applic good evening Madam chair members of the board as you said Jennifer crico from an Suman here here on behalf of the applicant oh we're on I just wanted to make sure that Mr carica Mr ashkanazi listen to the tapes and that they are able to vote this evening should we get there okay so as the board remembers we put forth the testimony at the last meeting of our engineer of our um architect as well as our professional planner and the questioning of the professional planner had begun but had not concluded so we were carried for that purpose rather than me make a summary of what happened I think perhaps since Jim wasn't here at the last meeting it might be best to just have him read his review letter and it will essentially summarize what we're seeking from a planning perspective and then I'll bring my uh planner back up for purposes of being questioned that's okay with you madam chair okay it's St July 9th 2024 the applicant is proposing to expand an existing single family residence the sites in a regularly shaped 5,280 ft corner lot with a depth of 30 ft at the North End and 96.2 5 ft at the south end and a width of approximately 95 ft the lot is under sized for the zone and the building envelope is very small is a very small triangle Varian is necessary for minimum front yard setback 30 ft required the existing front yard setback is 1.5 ft to the porch steps and 4.85 ft to the covered porch the proposed modifications will reduce the size of the covered porch but maintain the existing setbacks the prop proposed two-story addition will be 12.35 ft to the expanded second floor and 10.77% of lot width or 14.22 feet required the existing okay existing setback of the garage is is setback 5.6 ft the application proposes to remove 6 Fe 3 in of 6 3in portion of the garage convert it to living space and construct a second floor Edition above the first floor the resulting new setback will be 5.7 ft the applicant should explain the reasons for the additions in the proposed locations given the very small building envelope no matter where where the additions are proposed are proposed variances would be necessary for front and side setbacks excuse me the primary issue with this is whether or not there is a significant negative impact it should be noted that due to the nature of the properties on this side of South Edgemore Drive all of the residences are located close to the street line a minimum rear yard setback the ordinance requires a minimum 30 foot front yard setback and which which is a minimum 30 foot rear yard setback It should read the plan proposes 7.3 ft to the expanded second floor and 11 87 ft to the twostory addition given the unusual shape of the lot and the fact that the rear yard of buts Open Water I have no significant concerns with these variances maximum lot coverage building the origins permits a maximum building coverage of 25% of lot area the plan proposes a building coverage of 33.1% it should be noted that the lot is significantly under size at the lot we a conforming 7,500 foot building Square fet the building coverage would be 23.24% the applicant should provide information as to the existing building coverages in the immediate area so the board can compare what is proposed to what currently exists and just so the board is aware I did share the um exhibit that we submitted the tax map that showed that 66% of the Lots in the immediate area were in fact uh had building coverage non-conformity so Jim did have the benefit of that EX structures including pools patios pads Etc must maintain required 10-ft rear yard stepback the plan proposes a 4ot rear yard setback to the raised patio the applicant proposes to replace an exist existing acrade patio with a raised patio that will be approximately 2 feet above grade given the unusual shape of the lot and the fact that the rear of the lot faces Open Water I have no concern with this variance minimum side driveway side yard setback the ordinance requires 5 side yard setback a small portion of the driveway is setback 2.5 ft this is an existing condition which is being extended for 6' 3 in the bulk of the driveway conforms other comments the architectural plans indicate a proposed office on the second floor this should be changed to indicate a dinner study and I think that was done yeah it was done yeah so Jim just by way of summary and again I know because you weren't here at the last time to offer any comments during the testimony it doesn't usually happen when I submit applications but it sounds like you didn't have any planning issues with any of the variances being solved I didn't have no no significant planning issues okay thank you Mr mat like can you just refresh at least my memory were there any concerns yes that can be addressed so at the at the last hearing the applicants engineer was here and they did address the two comments in my review letter one was uh that uh Outside Agency approval is required because this is in uh does have impacts to the uh flood Hazard area and repairing zone so a d permit was required and it was obtained and then the project results in an increase of impervious surface and I requested storm water mitigation the applicant agreed to comply with that to by putting in a dry well or perforated pipe that would collect uh roof runoff from the um new addition and uh infiltrate it into the ground and that's acceptable okay thank you so I'd recall Andrew Janu uh he's not offering any new testimony it's just for purposes of finishing up any questions that the public may have for him and he was sworn at the last meeting and he does remain under Ro okay and your credentials are the same so nothing Chang wait your license is still in good standing since last mon and as a professional planner you have a license I do have a license okay good okay um questions from the board okay questions from yeah close the door questions from the public for Mr Janu if you have a question there's a microphone I'm sorry she had a statement they have statements not oh they have statements okay any questions from the public okay best work Andy ever did only took you 10 steps um motion to close the uh now the public makes comments oh I'm sorry I got happy for a momentt that's correct I have no further Witnesses except of course the right to recall should an issue be raised during public comment okay so now we will have public comment before I close it and if if you have a ma'am did you have a a comment statement okay now I am going to swear you in when you come up so okay do you swear any testimony you're about to give would be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth he you God I do and what's your name please my name is Judith melen could you just f l f a l I'm sorry es e and your address 489 South Edge M Drive 489 South Edge just so the board's aware that's that large house immediately to our South that I showed pictures of at the last meeting with similar front yard set back and similar side yard okay Miss Fel you may need to get just a little closer to the microphone than okay got my name you know where I live um I'm basically here I'm the third owner of this house and I um I'm here tonight in support of the Ocean Township laws rules codes and ordinances and policies regarding impervious coverage I'd like to be on record as to how my personal situation was handled regarding the ordinances codes and impervious coverage on home properties Mr Feliz can I just let you know we need impervious coverage we don't need a variance for impervious coverage okay well this was just I'm just telling you my situation and it has nothing I mean I'm just supporting it I'm not saying regarding what they're going to do I'm going to tell you my situation and how it was impacted by me what I'm sorry so so you're talking about what happened to you yeah what happened to me so so so that's so that you know that really has nothing to do with this application and this board has no power over that uh well can I just say this that I had a garage an existing garage that was there and during a storm in 2010 the roof CED in and I had to take the what does that have to do with this application well I'm just saying I I could not I could not rebuild rebuild that garage as a result of it because it did not comply with the imperf coverage but they don't have an imper coverage issue okay well I'm just saying that's the reason I came up here basically to say that I did have an existing uh piece of attached garage which I was told I could not no longer put up because of that just so you know they did and we can talk afterwards they change the impervious coverage requirements you probably can now okay well okay I'm just letting you know she's not but she's not your attorney and she didn't just advice rely upon it I'm just saying check I che check that now any other comments from the public evening Rog your voice yeah I'm going to swear you do swearing testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth but the truth and just state your name for the record Roger bo b y c 54 North edir Drive North what I'm sorry edir edmir okay thank you sir go ahead this is a totally excessive variance request for example so sit back is 14 ft required 5 ft proposed 60% reduction in the sitb back front yard sitb back is 30 ft required 10 ft is PR a 65% reduction re yard sit back which is on the lake 30 ft required only 7 feet proposed a 76% reduction this varience goes Way Beyond adding any unique hardship instead it appears to attempt to maximize developmental potential of the property vary should provide relief only in exceptional circumstances where strict result in unnecessary hardship this varant wants not needs it does not need to stand unnecessary hardship as for the argument that other properties are over developed is only fair that property be allowed to exceed a lot covered area fairness is not about compounding effs p over development is not justify future overage goal should be to restore compliance not deviate L this variance like saying there some kids in the classroom broke the rules every student now should be allowed to good rules if there loing standards we should withhold them BR comes from maintaining standards not abandoning them please not approve this unjustified thank you okay thank you any other comments from the public I remember the swearing testimony about to give will be the truth the whole truth of the truth salty God I do and to state your name for the record Nancy Flanigan 507 Beachwood Avenue West is and you just spell your last name please f l a n i g n and 507 Beachwood Avenue Beachwood Avenue in West alers yes thank you thank you this situation is about needs and wants and what is wanted is this couple wants to expand their vacation home for entertaining a few months of the year and as a board member pointed out last month they haven't owned the home very long and were aware of the size when they purchased the home the reality of this situation is that this lot should never have had a house built on it in the first place but it's too late to change that right now what is possible now is to not make a bad situation worse the argument the that the attorney made last month that many other homes in the neighborhood and she repeated it today that many other uh homes in the neighborhood exceed the lot coverage so therefore this home expansion should be permitted it's like telling a child uh when a child says all the other kids are jumping off the bridge why can't I do it no no no no that argument supports no more expansion the argument that the other homes are have expanded is not an a reason to make a bad situation worse it's time to look at the whole community and what the needs are in our neighborhood not what the wants of a single homeowner has the needs are that this whole Community needs deal Lake deal lake is our natural resource and as we as community members have an obligation to take care of our Lake for us now and for years to come the lake is much improved from years past but we need to continue to do the work to keep it healthy the property has not been this property owner has not been a good Steward of the lake near the lake at least two large trees I have pictures here have been allowed to be covered in Vines and we're probably going to lose those two big trees and a third if you're going to refer to I got Mark in so we'll mark them in at how many photographs do you have question the relevance of trees on the property she just she's if you want to if you want to I mean I would present her pictures oh I would CH I would challenge the board accepting them into evidence as relevant to any variances being sought but again my objections noted for the record it's not relevant the board is only allowed to consider relevant uh evidence and the planning purposes behind this application have nothing to do with how various individual homeowners care or don't care for their trees if there's an issue with the trees I suggest Miss Flanigan reach out to the tree preservation officer uh who would if there is a tree that looks like it's not being taken care of properly if I may finish rather than be interrupted wa MPL again hold on she's the attorney for the applicant she has a right to object interrupt she's not interrupting she's making an objection which she has a right to do you have to remember that this is like a little courtroom yes and you're you're a witness testifying that the applican attorney has a right to say your honor I interrupt just like you would see on any TV courtroom drama so it's not it's not a don't interrupt me uh thing it's she has a right she has an obligation as the attorney to do that so you wanted to present your pictures and what is the point of these pictures is just to show that the trees are there that that these we are pro in the neighborhood will probably lose the trees which makes a difference about the water in the neighborhood which I'm getting to the flooding portion so so that's but so the applican attorney does make a good argument that that's not really relevant because they don't need a variance for anything that you're asking about that there's nothing this board cannot deny an application based upon the idea that a tree is going to be cut down that's going to adversely affect the water well that's what you just said no I said that was a concern so what's the relevance of the pictures we would like to keep our neighborhood as safe as possible we have an issue with flooding this was taken in September of 2023 the more the lot or coverage we lose penetrating surfaces we lose trees in the neighborhood and a consideration that should be considered and has not been addressed is that the Corley Avenue Bridge is getting ready to be replaced and when the Corley Avenue Bridge is replaced and there is a need for that we are going to lose more trees and more the allant has no control over the Corley Avenue Bridge this board has control over whether or not yeah but you're talking about things that have nothing to do with the Apple you're talk you're talking about trees coming I understand you're concerned about the trees and I'm not saying that you don't have a right to be concerned about trees this board can't can't deny an application because you're going to lose trees because the Cory the Cory Alis Avenue Bridge is going to be taken that is going to be changed you're going to lose trees they can't if the board denied the application based upon what you're saying right now this application and they sued us we'd be overturned in a heartbeat because it's completely irrelevant to the application you have to stick to the property can I just ask a question coverage have something to do with the lock coverage lock coverage does but you're now talking about about a bridge and trees coming down at a bridge which have nothing to do this they lot the ordinance permits 65% lot coverage they're proposing 45% 20% below what the ordinance would otherwise permit so the board really and you can no no I agree if they comply with lock coverage consider then then lock coverage isn't an issue before this board I find that very disappointing that our neighborhood may end up with flooding as a result of this board not considering the whole community and looking at it for the want of one and that's just ask Mr matlack when you had talked about the storw war does that the two components does of course you can't guarantee but does that mitigate the flooding that yeah that's I was just going to say um The increased area the applicant has agreed to capture that runoff from the new impervious area and infil into just by doing that that prevents an increase in uh storm waterer runoff from the but one more question so the pictures that she was showing right would not I just have a followup what the pictures were but it was she said they were of the tree no no no M Madam chair may I ask a followup question to Ben that I think will shed some light on this she showed pictures of flooding from the street the way our property is sloped our runoff goes into the water correct uh yes and what is being proposed by the grading and drainage by our engineer and was offered by testimony from engineer any new impervious coverage will either be collected and aimed towards the water or will go into the water well the the yes and and in addition to that uh new runoff from this building Edition is going to be captured and into the ground right and which will ultimately go into the water so any flooding any flooding that's on that in that area is coming from offsite or probably somewhere Inland or Upland from where we are because as you know in the coast everything sloped down towards the water because ultimately that's where it's going to go so what we're proposing isn't going to have any impact on that and then secondly as it relates to being the steward and I'm I'm asking Ben because I'm not going to put my engineer back up as it relates to being the steward of the lake that that would be the State Department of Environmental Protection would be charged with ensuring that any environmentally uh sensitive areas were protected right and by us getting the D permit means they reviewed our drainage they reviewed our grading and we're not going to have any impact on the lake you did you obtained a permit from the DP and they approved it yes okay thank you okay Miss Flanigan any other comments okay any other comments from the public yes sir if you can come to the microphone and Madam chair while he's coming up I I didn't want to question Miss Flanigan because I know that she isn't a professional planner and I didn't want to get contentious but I just want to point out it is not it has never been the applicant's position that because other homes are over in coverage were entitled to it we're required to demonstrate under the municipal lus law that we're not having a negative impact on the character of the neighborhood and more importantly Jim asked us specifically to present what the other homes in the neighborhood are to show that what we're doing is consistent with the character of the neighborhood as you hear in my summation of of what required to approve we're not suggesting that just because everybody else is over or everybody else stole candy we're allowed to do the same thing that has nothing to do so the representations made by the two people who just came up that is that is a misrepresentation of the applicant's case and I just wanted you to but I didn't want to go through that with the a lay witness okay do you swearing testimony about the give will be the truth the whole truth and about the truth shall be God I do and just say your name for the record My Name is Earl Jackson Jackson and Mr Jackson what is your address 503 Laural app 503 Laural yes okay go ahead okay so to stick withs oh I'm sorry sir if you can just talk in the microphone sorry well I think I'm shrinking this is still a little too short for me um the bottom line I think on this application is that it is requesting for a massively overbuilt project which has numerous pre-existing non-conforming conditions to be exacerbated those conditions exist in the front yard in the rear yard and in The sidey Yards um the overbuilt component of this project project is uh currently 12% over they're asking for it to go to uh another um 32% over built um we've seen a number of properties get variances like this in the neighborhood and the biggest problem that we have with it is that it does Rob the neighborhood of access to light and air and to that end I would expect the planners in the room to defend that this project is only good for the private owner and not good for the community whatsoever um I have a couple of diagrams that I can show and submit them yeah you just have to show Miss crico first so that and so that she has an opportunity to object before the board make sure I'm not doubling up on you and Mr Jackson what what are what is this exhibit it's a series of exhibits that demonstrate the extent of the overbuilt and extension of the pre-existing non-conforming conditions and the source of the source of this did you get us from the board file or how do you how did you do this I extrapolated this from the board files the files that were submitted by the planners The Architects and and the engineers um using their documents as a background and simply highlighted the condition because I know often times in a room like this when we throw numbers around like what is 7 feet as opposed to 30 ft or 5T as opposed to 14 ft those numbers kind of hang around in the air without a graphic to support how much impact those kinds of things actually have and Mr Mr Jackson how many uh pages is your exhibit I have uh four pages on the setbacks and I have one page questioning the definition of the top of Bank all right M do you have any objection to this I mean it seems to me without hearing your objecting that I don't know why this wouldn't be allowed no no no I I don't have an objection but just so the board's aware if they look at our plan we have 100t triangle shown what the permitted setbacks are so our plans clearly indicate that anything more than a dogghouse would in fact need variance relief so we concede that we need all this variance relief that's fine so I'm going to Mark in this exhibit as exhibit J1 as in Jackson one just for the sake and then if you did you have more than one copy I left the copy I left the copy with you that you can pass around I have the copy that I can refer to as I speak okay okay um so on the on the first page the large pink rectangle is the existing house um in the area that is a pre-existing non-conforming condition beyond the front yard allowable setback the dark red is the amount of extension that the applicant is asking that they uh add to the pre-existing non-conforming condition one of the biggest concerns we have with this is the separation of the sidewalk to views and access to the lake and nature right now the house is currently I just have a quick correction you're saying we you're not here as an attorney so you're only speaking about yourself I'm speaking to my whole family yeah and so so Mr Jack just that point I wasn't going to I wasn't going to bother to interrupt on that but but but but she's right you know the you only can talk about yourself you can't speak for your family you only for yourself okay which is going to have the same impact anyway so to just say I I have an issue okay okay so I I have an issue with the fact that this extension would separate the sidewalk where I see people waiting for the bus where I see people walking their dogs where I know that the community enjoys That Sidewalk sorry if that went over um but is it is a it is a big problem for zoning and I know the purpose of zoning is to protect the properties around properties like this one so what it does is it extends a property that is 42 ft wide um by another 16 ft which is a 38% increase in width it would make it incrementally by far the widest property on the Block on this stretch um to the tune of twice as wide as the one next to it and almost three times as wide as the next structure beyond that the second diagram is in light pink the rear yard existing pre-existing non-conforming condition and the dark Reds are the exacerbated additions that are being requested I'll refer to this at the last two pages of that attachment um sidey yard condition smaller encroachment but again the light pink is the pre-existing non-conforming condition and the dark pink is the additional amount being asked for mind you that in all of these diagrams the majority of those dark pink areas are to the tune of two floors right the last page is the combination of all three of those you can see that the property as stated probably should have never been built we're asking that it should not be expanded within the guidelines and jurisdiction of this board and Ocean Township uh on the last page one of the most concerning things is that in the submission in the submissions to the town there were three surveys one dated 2018 one dated 2022 by Chet somont and then the most recent survey uh dated 2024 survey what I find um troubling is the definition of the top of Bank the first two surveys located it where the top of Bank actually exists near the fence and which the first two surveys called out but the most recent application has dropped the top of Bank definition to the water's edge so I I do believe that there may be an error in the submission and approval with the state D so do you have any yeah we didn't Define the top of Bank the D did the top of bank I don't think has any relevance to the um variances being requested the and and the D has reviewed and approved plans so I don't have an issue with it so but Jackson the only thing I can say going off of that is that is that what's been said a couple times now is that the D approved this we're out of luck on that issue the rest of the things you're talking about are completely fair game and the board definitely could decline the application if they wish I mean they granted can we see those yeah please or I guess um Mr that's from my file can you actually um I already handm marked it Matt LA and Mr Higgins first just make sure that CL gets the exhibit and and you can you can pass Mr Jack if you don't mind if you can pass the one up there to the board and then Claire you'll hold on for that at the end uh in addition to the diagrams that I shared uh I already mentioned built coverage of 33% proposed 32% overbuilt which we ask you not to approve um rear yard setback I think this is one of those conditions where I would expect that building right up to the top of the bank would be an issue it's an engineering issue I know that Professionals in the room have presented to that end but I would question that presentation um and then lastly so so so so that's a question for the engineer I'm sorry say say that again so the the building coverage no no no rear yard setback um um 3 ft proposed whereas a minimum of 10 is required does register Incredibly Close to the top of Bank um and I have seen the flood waters come up to within a few feet of that fence in the past the the rear yard setback is 30 fet 7.3t is the existing 30 ft required 30 ft required to the rear property line right and and that is not change the uh addition to the what's currently the garage is uh 13.43 feet and I'm sorry the the there's a second story digion in Blue on the plan that's 11.87 ft but that's sure the I'm I'm referencing the letter that you provided that says rear yard setback to raised patio of 3 feet proposed whereas minimum of 10 is required okay yes the the patio is is um has a a smaller set I apologize yeah so I I think that that should be taken into consideration and then lastly um driveway sidey yard setback of 2 and a half P Fe proposed whereas a minimum of five is required I do understand that the applicant and their designers have pulled the front of the garage back to allow for two parking spaces in the driveway um in respon want to them uh extending the house from a three-bedroom house to a four-bedroom house and I would just say that it's a ex extreme concern of ours with children in the neighborhood that um cars which never get parked in the existing driveway would be added to the street parking and with kids in the street playing uh it becomes a very dangerous Corner coming off of Corley um I don't expect that any of the cars parked at this house would be in that driveway given the history of uh of use there today but you meet rsis right rsis yeah so so so if they meet rsis we can't really take that into consideration it's sort of preempted on us understood okay just needed to be said that that's fine I just want you to understand that they can't take that into consideration it's it's just it's my job I know I come off like a jerk sometimes but it's not what my make purpose my job is to make sure the record is clear I understand sometimes purpose sometimes it is on purpose but that was not purpose and it was not on purpose to miss Flanigan either I just have to keep the record clean I'm trying to understand your initial comment about the sidewalk and the impact on the public I I I'm I just don't understand what where you were going with that so the aicp code of ethics States our primary obligation as planners and active participants in the planning process is to serve the public interest he's not hold on he is not a planner he's not claiming to be a planner he did claim to be at the last meeting we found out afterwards that he does not have licensure okay I I was here at the last meeting ask me now are you a license planner I am not okay so he's not a licensed planner but he was asked the question by Mr heggins I mean he can answer the question your objections noted no no no I just I thought he was representing himself to be a planner again so I was just objecting to that and I didn't represent myself to be a professional planner last time you can check the record we don't we don't have to go back and forth we'll know for the record you are not a professional planner so Mr ask you a question you can continue so the code of ethics States our primary obligation as planners and active participants in the planning process is to serve the public interest and I don't believe that this project in any way serves anyone other than the private owner my question was do you believe differently how does it adversely impact the public interest I I'm just I'm why putting a a building on a site where there's a sidewalk in front of the building how I just don't see where the relevance is there that's that's what I'm trying to understand what what the point is okay so on the first diagram I submitted I demonstrated where the pre-existing front yard condition was exacerbated to the north yes that extends the width of the building by 38% set back though it's we're not exacer a set back issue you're already you are exacerbating the existing okay it's why that's why they're here for a variant exactly right and that's why we're here to object because it shouldn't be approved okay but there's a hardship there's a clear hardship due to the shape of the site I mean there there's no question that there was a hardship with this applications and the only real question is what's the negative impact the negative impact as I see it yeah is every morning I wake up and I see that sidewalk in action I see the sun come up over it and I see people walking their dog there I see children waiting for school buses there still will impact people using the sidewalk that's in the public right away I didn't say it impacted people using the sidewalk I said it robed the community of access to light and air and what why by blocking the sunrise by blocking views of the lake in nature if they were to take a row of 30t High evergreen trees put them right behind the front setb line across the would have the same exact effect I can rephrase this it blocks our access to Nature so if they put trees there go ahead we still have access to Nature what I'm arguing is that development should not Rob our access to light and air and access to Nature so so I did not save you so let me just let me be clear so under the log you don't have a right to a view you understand that I did not say view you said nature to Nature I said light and air but then you would to to Mr Higgin example to light in air if the trees were put up you would be blocked light and air it depends on what kinds of trees and whether they follow the local Cod let's assume that there are trees that would block light and air because they're fully pull trees you would be blocked with light in nature maybe we should go back to the tree uh Council that Mrs kco referenced earlier uh for the tree discussion wait what I don't know when when trees were brought up as an issue earlier it was dismissed it was it was now you're in it has no relevance to this application so how does trees have relevance to the objection that the site is over built I mean we don't I don't want to have it back and forth what Mr hegins is basically pointing out to you is that your argument is you can't build this because you're going to block the light you're going to block the light in nature which you're going to say is not about you but it's about view that's what you're saying because you want to be able to view nature so we no matter how you parse it you're talking about a view and you don't own the view so his point is only it's not about trees per se it's about the fact that nature could grow itself into a tree and you would be blocked the light in air that you're saying that you're looking for so going back to Mr higgins's question how are you negatively affected by this house your answer can't be that you're being denied light and air because you in air without them doing anything but that's a supposition right we don't have control over what nature will do we do as a board have control over allowing or denying this variance and this variance is suggestive of a massively overbuilt property so what we're asking is to deny the overbuild what might happen with nature has no relevance to the variance application you raised it I mean I I said the building I question I have a question for you as a witness so when you're saying what happens with nature are there any zoning regulations that would prohibit my clients from putting 30 foot green Giants to block your view or the light air in open space in the exact location where the addition is going uh I believe there's a 4 foot limit on shrubs that's in the front yard this is in the front yard and I'm asking you if we put it outside of the front yard in front of the lake wouldn't that have and and they grw to be 30 or 40 ft would the town have any ability to regulate that not that I know but right so it's not a supposition to Nature it's what the board regulates or doesn't regulate and as it relates to the LI air in open space or more purly your view of the lake they can't regulate that I do not think that we're here to challenge a proposal for planting trees we're challenging a proposal to extend a pre-existing non-conforming building and that's what I'm speaking and that's a legitimate argument but but but the the question from Mr Higgins was what the negatives are and your negative was that we're going to we're not going to have her view you didn't use you didn't use the word view you said ER which is view it's the same thing and it's and it's in the AIC okay code of ethics we understand it's the number one thing zoning protects so I don't know why it's being dismissed at this moment can you explain to me why not that the public has a right to light an air in 1913 when zoning was written on Pine Street and the Equitable building that was built there it was because the building robbed other buildings adjacent to it of light and air so you're saying no variances should ever be granted for setbacks because they rob light and air that's what you're saying it's it's not what I'm saying I'm an arch there's a whole there's a whole process there's a law there's a land use law for the state there's an ordinance there are processes for granting asking for and for boards to Grant variances that's why we're here throwing in that aicp statement I think quite frankly is irrelevant Mr Higgins you asked why I asked I to place an objection on the record this is not supposed to be a colloquy between the public and your professionals it's his opportunity to make statements so I'd ask that you have uh Mr Jackson complete his statement and we could move on all right but Mr Higgins has a right to ask a question if he wants to ask he does but again it's becoming a conversation not a I understand but but but you can't fault Mr Jackson for trying to answer Mr higgins's Question no not at all I'm not faulting him I'm just trying to move it along Mr Jackson do you have any other comments I think for the following reasons I would just emphatically ask that you do not approve this variant okay other question other comments from the public okay thank you motion to close the public hearing oh I'm sorry no I think that yeah oh motion to close the public hearing I'll offer to close the public hearing I would I can't all in favor I any opposed Madam chair I'm going to just give I'm going to try and make it as brief as possible but I think it's important considering the issues that were raised by the public and some of the misrepresentations of the law that I just take a minute to go through it because I think it's going to be important for the record if that's okay MH okay so this isn't about needs versus wants as was indicated by the public this is about what rights we have under the statute to ask for a variance and whether or not we meet our criteria you guys know and I'll say for the public that we're required to meet the positive criteria and the negative positive criteria is either C1 or C2 our professional planner offered expert testimony and your planner uh did not take any objection to it who was here at the last time that uh we are definitely a hardship in order to meet the hardship standards you must demonstrate the unique shape or topographic conditions or result of Legally existing structures that the strict application of the ordinance would result in a hardship and relief is warranted so what does that mean we hear that all the time what does that mean in Lay person's term as interpreted by our courts and put in the simplest terms is this lot the type of lot that the zoning ordinance was crafted for or is there something particular or unique about this lot such as the size the shape of the topography that would make it more difficult to comply than it would with a standard shape lot that meets the area and the dimensions and in this case without any severe environmental constraints to demonstrate just one of those things qualifies you as a hardship doesn't mean you get an approval it just means you met the hardship criteria or the positive so one of the standards is exceptional narrowness shallowness or shape we're 30% smaller than what the minimum is and our L depth is only 30t no one can question it's extremely shallow lot exceptional topographic conditions or physical features were encumbered by flood Hazard or parryan buffers that all severely limit the development of this property legally existing structures the existing house is non-conforming as to front side rear and is already over in building coverage there is no way to add to this tiny house in order to in order to do that without a variance due to the exceptional physical constraints on the lot it is not only a hardship but an impossibility to comply with the ordinance and I know that and I I applaud him that Mr um Jackson went to Great trouble to provide that exhibit but I don't think it was necessary because when you look at our plan and as pointed out by our engineer and our planner the permitted building envelope is a teeny tiny triangle in the center of the lot that's less than 100 square ft so everything that Mr Jackson provided to you basically makes our c Cas that we have a hardship so then the next question it was raised again tonight some members of the public suggested that we should not be entitled to the Varian is because we knew what we were buying well that's just a a a absolute misconception and misrepresentation of the law it's opposite our Appel division held that a buyer is entitled to Avail themselves on hardship grounds for a variance whether they knew about the unique conditions when they purchased it or not whether or not my clients knew that it was undersized or anticipated a growing family and that they would need more space and were blessed with children and grandchildren has absolutely no impact on your decision tonight your only question is do we have a hardship based solely on the physical characteristics clearly we do additionally my client my uh planner offer testimony as to our C2 or flexible C and that is furthering the purposes of the municipal lus and what Mr Jackson had indicated that no one benefits and there is no public benefit well the courts and the statute disagree if we're furthering purposes of the municipal land use law it is widely and generally accepted that we are providing a public benefit so we have the public benefit of furthering the purposes of the municipal land use law and we have the hardship but even if we prove both of those we still can't get a variance unless we meet the negative criteria the negative criteria isn't is there a is there a detriment the negative criteria isn't is it going to really upset somebody or bother somebody the question is is it a substantial detriment to the public good and a substantial detriment to the intent and purpose of the zoning ordinance and the master plan that it outweighs any benefit or the extent of a hardship as it relates to the public good and the impact of the neighbors um the environmentally sensitive areas and the character of the neighborhood there is no substantial detriment the front setbacks are in line exactly in line with all of the other waterfront homes along South edmir and most importantly we're not widening this house to its full depth the way Mr Jackson would want you to think and at the current front setback we purposefully set back the small addition to the north such that it would provide the light air in open space and the step back so what we're proposing is actually better than what we have today as far as setback and what the neighbors have the rear setbacks are to the water which has no impact on anybody the South setback is merely a vertical expansion of an existing condition and notably there is a 5ot right of way immediately to our South so even though we need a setback variant we have 5T of open space in addition to it giving it visually the look of that and then more importantly is that the large house on the other side is just as close to that Mutual property line and we the side that Mr Jackson is so concerned about about his View and his nature we canly on that side jar setback we don't need a variance there almost done promise the building coverage is entirely consistent with the character of the neighborhood that doesn't mean that because everybody else has it we're entitled to it of course it doesn't mean that you have to prove the positive criteria to be entitled to it what it means is what is the character of the neighborhood if every house in the neighborhood fully complied on fully conforming lots and we proposed this application a planning argument and what Jim would argue is well we're we're not within the character of the neighborhood it's inconsistent we're going to have a negative impact to it so the the proofs that we gave with regard to that was not to say that justifies us it's just to say that as the negative criteria is concerned we're not going to have a substantial detrimental impact on the character of the neighborhood 62% of the homes in the immediate neighborhood are over and building coverage and those lots don't have the same Mitigation Of open space to the right which is the 5 ft the open space lot to our s to our North which can never be developed and the water behind us most of those 62% of those lots are infill homes with homes all around them so in light of that we're going to have no impact on the character of the neighborhood as it relates to the building coverage and certainly not a substantial one and we all understand that the neighbors across the street have H essentially enjoyed a water view over my client's vacant parcel uh for many years but the ordinance doesn't protect that view nor does it give the board the ability to do so a subjective negative impact to a few neighbors based simply on development not specifically the variant is being sought is not the kind of sub substantial detriment the public good that the statute requires the to consider as it relates to impact to the Zone plan there there is no impact to it this is such a uniquely small lot with such an odd shape and encumbered so substantially by environmental constraints you can't zone for this lot if you zoned for this lot you couldn't have a house here which is why the very reason our state legislature put in the statute that when you have a hardship like that you should be granted a variance as long as there's no substantial detriment and there's certainly no substantial detriment to the master plan our planner went to Great Lengths to point out how consistent we are with your master plan so and I haven't heard any testimony to the contrary so respectfully to the neighbors who I recognize don't want this because they're used to the open space that has been there unfortunately our lot is the very reason that hardship variances exist and based on the expert testimony of two planners Jim as as well as our planner and two Engineers our engineer and Ben and the fact that we're willing to comply with all of the conditions that were asked of us I would ask the board to please vote in favor of this application okay there an offer from the board offer to close the meeting I thought I did you did that already oh sorry I'm not the public Mr I'm the applicant thank I thought I did that okay okay s second okay Claire if we can call the yes this is to approve with the um no I'm sorry there weren't any additional conditions no the conditions were to comply with Ben's letter okay no no no do we have to State our reasons no okay you don't think it's a advisable no okay thank you very much okay we are at 9:01 and I believe the next okay three cases um should be carried uh due to not wanting to limit yes Madam chairman there's a very limited issue in my case I will represent I can do it in 20 minutes it's only 901 I would request for respect that we be allowed to and if I go over 25 minutes you can stop believe we have we have two attorneys we have three cases three cases two with attorneys Mr um Higgins and Mr matlack is there a case that has um I will say less concerns let's may I make a suggestion there's still public here are public here in opposition to any of the applications that are still pending no okay I just wanted to get that out of the way so we know that that that might be if there were we know we would have problem okay is there um no no significant issues my stand none from my standpoint either okay so then let's go with um uh Jerry G garini okay block 202 lot 9 1219 air AV ocean 07712 zone R4 okay the applicant proposes to demolish an existing non-conforming uncovered front porch and construct a new covered front porch within the front yard setbacks minimum front yard setback 30 ft required 22 ft 11 1/8 in to Port steps and 276 1/8 in to porch a lir AV and 211 38 to porch and 22 ft to porch steps Monro app proposed a slate patio concrete patio P patio with fire pit and shed our shown within the rear of the property and appear to have been placed there without the benefit of approvals or permits the slate patio is within the designated public right of way and within the 30 ft front yard setback on Monroe Avenue the concrete patio is within the 30 ft front yard setback on Monroe Avenue the P patio is within the required 10 ft rear yard setback and the shed is within the required 5T side and 5T rear yard setbacks and Mr garini did I say that correctly gine yes I'm sorry garine yes garine yep okay I would just like Madam chair if I can mark in the exhibits that I have um exhibit A1 will be the memorandum and I'm basically just going down Claire's list because it's the easiest way to do it uh exhibit A1 will be the memorandum dated October 28 2024 exhibit A2 will be the application itself exhibit A3 will be the survey prepared by Mr surmont dated May 11th 2023 exhibit A4 will be the grading plan exhibit A5 will be the architectural plan so those are the exhibits I have from the applicant I then have the following exhibits on behalf of the board exhibit B1 will be the board planners report dated August 28 2024 exhibit B2 will be the board plannner Revis report dated September 27 2024 exhibit B3 will be the board engineer report dated August 16 2024 exhibit B4 will be the board engineer Revis report dated October 2nd 2024 exhibit B5 will be the board Engineers final report dated October 17 2024 exibit B6 will be the zoning officer report dated July 31st 2024 and exhibit B7 will be the zoning officer revise report dated September 20th 2024 so those all the exhibits okay Mr garine can you tell us oh I'm sorry um before you tell us about your request Mr Higgins and Mr matl can you summarize well it's it's a difficult site first of all it's on a corner but uh that's Monroe Avenue I think it is is a dead end Monroe the that end it's a public Street um one of the issues was the the oper was asked to request to councel to uh the governing body to vacate Monroe Avenue and I think they declined that request yep so you we're stuck with the property as it is I don't have a problem with the variances for the front setback of the of the house or the porch I I think it makes sense um I don't have a problem really with the other existing nonconformity either the the shed is a very small shed and it's set back it's about 7 feet by 7 feet and just the two corners are within the 5 foot setback so I don't have a big problem with that and because Monroe is basically a dead end Street I don't really have an issue with the existing uh patio that that can that extends out onto the right away mon row either okay Mr matl uh as you heard there were a few iterations of review letters uh there was some back and forth with the applicant submitting additional information which we appreciate and at the end of it uh I don't have any engineering concerns okay Mr Gaff if you can tell us about your request it and if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes I do okay uh yes the we we did build an addition which had nothing to do with any of the variants that was within the setbacks that's Tak taken care of what we put the application in for is just the front porch the front porch is actually going to be smaller than the existing front porch we just trying to make it sort of look natural to the addition that we put on the exact numbers is our existing front stoop is 168 Square ft the new front steps and stoop will be 112 and with the pad 142 so we were actually making the front porch area a smaller footprint in the midst of that is when these other items did come up so right off the bat we did move the shed I do have pictures if we want to put them in but I did move the shed already the slate patio we have removed already so we are trying to move it along and get to the point where we can construct our uh front porch and uh the only other item I believe there was was the fire pit which I think is about a foot over the 10t setback from the backyard or the property line we do have a plan to put in additional Shrubbery um our neighbor behind us already has a bunch of Shrubbery there so we do plan on putting in a natural barrier to take away or help with that one F excuse me one foot that is over uh the basic application here is just for our front portch so we can continue our construction and have a more aesthetic look to our our new house okay and the porch has a roof um yes it would be a covered front porch uh which sort of matches our addition it's not a livable space it's not a usable space it is truly just a covered front porch so when you walk up to the porch you are out of the rain again none of those items are further than our existing front porch so it is actually I'll say further from the roadway than what we we have already so we're actually losing front porch coverage or impervious coverage and the master plan actually recommends relaxing front yard setback requirements for front porches okay and just the zoning we haven't redone the zoning yet so the zoning hasn't C up to that okay any other testimony no that's it okay questions from the board and did you say you you remove the slate patio yes is that what you said yes yes and in preparation we we would love to keep it but we didn't want to have any holdups with the front porch so we were just trying to do the good thing and say if you guys wanted it remove we did take it out it is a dry you know so it was easy to take out luckily it wasn't poured concrete it wasn't anything like that but we did just want to facilitate things to move this along so you took out the whole Sate Pao or just the part that was over the property line the whole Sleep p the whole thing okay yep like I said we just wanted to make sure that nothing was to hold up our front porch application any other questions from the boards questions my wife is asking if we can keep it we'd like to so we would like to put it in but we wanted to make you know the application to make it easier for the front porch okay I think given the situation I don't have a problem at all if they were to put it back in up to the property board has no jurisdiction I think Mark com on that as far as what goes beyond the property line okay does that need to be a it would be a variance request okay you could add the variance request what exactly would the variance Bean Mr hiin would be zero foot setback for the uho the Slate Pao slate patio in the front yard on Mon Street it patio yeah and Monroe is a dead end it's basically their driveway and the driveway for the house across the street and what is what's the required step back I'm sorry yeah 30 ft definitely 30 ft required you that's a front yard the board doesn't have to Grant it but but if the board is inclined to I just want to know what it is it's included yes if we do okay and I have no problem with you uh amending the I have no problem with you adding that if you wish okay you wish to add that we wish to add that as long as it doesn't stop our front porch That's our real application okay any other questions from the board any questions from the public okay motion to close the public hearing motion to close all in favor I any opposed you got to do roll call oh to close the public I'm sorry I'm sorry ium I got distracted I'm sorry okay um is there a motion to offer positive resolution I'll motion positive resolution I'll second okay yes yes yes yes yes okay and that's with the additional you you allow them to keep the SL p and we can go with yes so there'll be a resolution at the next meeting memorializing it okay you don't you can't go into today and get the get the permit okay all right thank you all very much okay next we have Saleem 55 LLC block 12.07 Lot 1 3 Oakwood Avenue Oakhurst 07755 Zone R4 applicant seeks approval to keep five AC condensers within the side yard setback of the newly constructed dwelling AC condensers 3 ft in height or less must maintain the required 10 ft side yard setback whereas 6.45 ft to two AC condensers are proposed and 6.59 ft to 3 AC condensers proposed and Mr Farber M chairman doesn't that sound familiar but uh good evening Rob Farber for the applicant Sim 55 for three Oakwood Avenue all right Mr far let me Mark in the following exhibits into evidence exhibit A1 will be the application exhibit A2 will be the final as built survey exhibit A3 will be the variance plan and exhibit A4 will be the Watershed model schematic the board then will Mark in as board exhibits B1 will be the board planner original report B2 will be the board planner revised report B3 will be the board Engineers original report B4 will be the board engineer Revis report B5 will be the board engineer final report exhibit B6 will be the zoning officer original report and exhibit B7 will be the zoning officer RIS report and then B8 will be the zoning officer final report okay and why don't we hear from Mr Hagins and Mr M okay okay again I'll summarize um the variances are for the pool patio which is a corner lot and the pool patio as it was originally designed maintained a setback of 30 feet along West Lincoln Avenue and it resulted in a very irregular shape of the pool patio so the proposal is to extend it straight and make the pool patio rectangular rather than a very odd tra idal shape basically uh initially when you look at the plan it looks doesn't look very good but if you go out and look at the site and you're standing on West Lincoln Avenue there's a the property elevates up about 4 feet and then there's a fence and behind the fence there's a heavy screen of Evergreens and you can't even see the P oh I see no way of knowing it's there I think it makes the patio much more usable I don't see real negative impact for that as far as the kit five condensers go it's it's a new house um so there's no hardship so I think some testimony needs to be provided as to what the public benefits are in terms of Municipal land use law why why they have to be where they're located at six a little over between six and 7 feet from the property line where 10 FTS required okay Mr matl uh again this uh resulted in a little bit of back and forth with the the applicant and their professionals uh the my prior concerns with storm water were addressed uh there was a underground detention system that was installed uh so that uh is addressed my only comment in my final review letter was uh possible noise concerns from the AC condensers so again pigb backing on what Jim said that would soorry just to clarify was the is the patio built with that expansion right now or is it at the Trap right now it's at the trop aoid right now it's not built and and the other point in my report is that the screening on South Lincoln Avenue is now it's Arbor that are 5 feet tall and they're going to grow up to be bigger and there be a solid screen and that would require a variance unless it's maintained at 4 feet so that has to be addressed also that I believe would ultimately be an Enforcement issue my clients will understand that they're to keep the screened area of the Evergreens at four feet um and were they not to be I believe that's something well that's existing and it's permissible as it is right now that's something your code enforcement department will deal with but they won't have to deal with it because my client will be instructed to keep it at 4 feet and do not not to allow it higher um I was before you a month or two ago on a similar issue with a house constructed where each V was placed in the side and I understand how strongly you feel about the issue this is a very different scenario and I would like to explain why I have as a witness just as a late person the actual Builder involved who will testify basically that unlike the last time he consulted with a zoning code official at the Time Michael I don't know his last name and he doesn't remember the last name is no longer employed this is something that I had the conversation with Kate Maloney she's not here tonight but she would confirm this my client actually my client's Builder actually met with the code official and received permission to put the side units there which is was improper of him my client didn't know that at the time but he actually sought permission before he placed it and just to streamline the process cuz I will ask the client very leading questions because it's there's no rules of evidence that preclude that before this board he the the original plan showed two condensers he came there is documentation that if the court if the court if the board wishes marked it can be it will show that five condensers are identified the placement was drawn on a survey my client will testify approved by your code official but I've done a Freedom of Information Act uh Miss Maloney looked for it and I looked for it frankly and my client looked for it we can't find what was drawn so it's going to be his testimony that he did receive permission to place these there as far as what the negative versus positive criteria are I will point out these are very well shaded they are very well hidden that the adjoining house has and this is Mr Higgins report and Mr Higgins correct me if I'm wrong the adjoining homeowner the HVAC unit is exactly where these are not exactly so how did this how did this get uh get before you if they're already in um because you went in for the pool application no no no the pool they realized as built there was not what was what was on the original plan and so as built improperly a variance is required because you do not allow hbac units in the sidey yard I understood but but but the reason it got caught is because he went for the co and the pool got caught the pool got I think when the ultimate home cosos were were the full yeah the P Co and and when the in the Full House Co when he went in he realized that the yeah that the air that the air condensers were in the wrong place had had okay didn't have that right the stopple isn't an argument that I can make to the board but it is a consideration because one of the concerns you have when a exist thing is done and the negative and positive criteria will basically work even though there's no hardship because it was a new construction but one of the considerations has to be and and it's a great concern to you my client s to do this legally my client had erous lot a a wrong opinion given by a Ocean Township zoning official that he was permitted to put this so he wasn't a cowboy Point Blank and with no further Ado I I'll just let the board know I mean that's you don't have to Grant the varians because of that there's actually case law on this that says you don't and I'm not suggesting you shouldn't give the variance I'm just saying that the fact that the that a uh the fact that an employee of the Town who was who was able to give that approval gives the approval doesn't mean that it's okay if the if the employee messed up I want to point something out and Mark backed me up on this I used legal term I said the this fact does not create an estole for the board correct which I said that to you I just want you to know I didn't say just because your guy approved it means you got to Grant it that I was saying it that doesn't mean that but I am asking you because given the criteria are basically even here in my you know it's for you to decide but the argument can be made because driving by the house the units are totally shav that will be the testimony um the hbac units are where they were at the original home which is irrelevant but they are exactly across not exactly I'm using the word exactly which is inaccurate but the hbac units are where the neighbors H vacuums are essentially so um and his is in the sidey yard also his is non-conforming but he's not making an application we are I I just want to n say this because of Any punitive thoughts you may have because the client did something illegal it he didn't act with to use another legal term men's Ria Criminal Intent he thought he was doing it legally so having said that and the board the board certainly cannot uh penalize the applicant they have to find that the criteria hadn't been meted yeah so um but if they I do have a question for you mark just like in some cases where through let's say no fault of their own so to speak it it may have to be removed it it might have to okay if they can't meet the criteria that that then then you can't Grant the variance I mean that that's the way things work okay um but with that said you certainly can give consideration to the fact I don't disagree with Mr Farber that you can give consideration to the fact that it's there already and there's presumably nobody here tonight to complain about it so so so maybe it's not creating like a negative impact all right you can do that also but I just didn't the only reason I jumped in was I didn't want to leave the board with the impression that you had no choice because the zoning officer or whoever approved it at some point in time in error and I just want to reiterate I never you never said it you never said it I'm just and I'm not accusing you of having said it I just wanted the board to be very clear that they do have a choice okay based upon the facts presented this is a sera sand up please oh if you can raise your right hand do you affirm right could affirm you could affirm yeah do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes and I'm sorry just say your last name again SI s could you spell that please s e r u y a and your first name I'm sorry Abraham Abraham okay well we'll just mark it as as a um A5 it's that's the document because you couldn't find the other one that's explain oh okay these are these are essentially A5 are are essentially your your your permits that you got from the town Che yeah I'll explain okay St offici okay so I took a few notes um first um I want to commend you guys for volunteering someone your time to the board I don't know how you guys do it because I'm here one night and I'm ready to go home but um okay so a few things um I just want to introduce myself I've been a builder in this town for 16 years personally and my father who who were Partners has been working here for 25 years um so we're not new to the town um we try and follow all the rules you've never seen us here before um a lot of times like a pool deck will be three inches over we have to cut that whole thing back take out the cement and we know it that's what we have to do we don't come for permission when we make a mistake but this is a little bit different so we did there was this zoning officer Michael I'm sure Claire remembers him but it was sort of a mess when he was around um we did get these these HVAC permits approved on a plan plan and the proof is is that the building department will not approve uh the HVAC permit until the condensers are located on a plan so we did locate that on a plan when we went to go do our uh open folder there was no plan showing five condensers just let me clarify something the plan that the code official approved showed the five units in the side yard within the 10t setb correct and you had permission before you put them in you 12 before when this permit was uh applied for so probably about a year before I put them in so we there there was no the plan that was approved was not in the folder but this wouldn't have been approved without that plan so there had it has to have been somewhere um side note is is there's nowhere else really for these units to go um the front is on the setback the left side of the house is pretty much on the setb it's technically a front yard because it's it has a corner so I I don't know if you could call that a hardship but and then the rear of the house has a large masonary covered patio so this is sort of really the only location where it would uh fit um again the neighbors a air conditioning is also on the line also the previous home that we demolished to build this one had the air conditionings also closer to the property line than we have them now um and I I I guess that's pretty much it other than the fact he let me ask you a few questions the units themselves are masked you can't see them from the street can you not that I know of I don't I don't think so um if I represent to well um there's trees and a fence and it kind of blocks A View to the side of the house is that correct I think so yeah there's a fence um additionally are these loud units are they relatively quiet no they're 13 here so they're they're Rel L quiet okay and they are opposite the other home owner correct correct um nothing further Mr Higgins just to add testimony the the portion about it can only be the plan had to have been in place for it to be approved that's accurate I I'll I'll tell you from a legal perspective it has to be the sub code official would have signed off on those they had something saying that they were allowed to be there okay okay questions from the board yeah what kind what kind of buffer do you have you have a fence there between the property lines on the property line there's definitely a fence on the property line I'm just trying to think if there's there might be green uh Emerald Greens also running along the fence and you said you said the the next homeowner has his air conditioning units on the same yes they're much older units i' I've seen them and they're they're bigger and older I'm going to show the board and the witness this is A6 this shows does this show the buff Bo that existed in fact to me when I was there you can see the sleeve of my suit you know so is the unit behind there well I'm going to explain that the unit I'm going to present this I wish had to be marked I I marked it as A6 it's A6 this is the these are the units themselves these are the units themselves Rob can you show us too please where's the units these are the units okay guys are the units Alo that's the neighbors is that neighbor that I'm going to get to that the other side of the tree yeah you can see my wrist push this tree back because if you look down you can see the very top I think yes you can see the very top of the condenser of the neighbor that's the neighbor's house okay yood so if you look at my fat ugly hand which is pushing aside the thing you see there's like a metal thing on the side it's so well I'm not allowed to testify but I couldn't get a better picture because the trees the bushes are there and it's so well uh screened those are the ACs and those are the neighbors these are the AC's and these are the neighb this is The Neighbors the neighbor only has one unit it looks bigger than the ones my client Oh I thought there was two there it's only one there may have been two I only been a while may have but frankly and secondly I couldn't see it because the bushes are so high and uh but I I just wanted that one thing I did look at is you know it's a big house and so I looked at the building coverage when you look at the plant the ordinance permits 25% they're at 20 so it's not like they're overbuilding the site and the impervious is at 44 and 65% is permitted so so again when you look at it it's it's not not an over building situation on the site and it really does look like even know it's a new house this is probably if if they were to design it initially and if the house wasn't built and if were before you I would probably be saying this is still the best location to put with these units particularly since this building is under sized okay Mr Malik any additional yeah I I'd say that um what I was kind of looking for in in testimonies regarding the noise is some sort of um noise dampening or screaming and vegetation shrubs are the best way to dampen the noise so I think that the fact that you have those shrubs right along the fence line that's that would be what I was looking for okay any other questions from the board did you guys bring a copy of the plans that were submitted that are lost we don't have we no one could find them we can't when did you guys have a would you have a copy no uh it was Mark on site in the zoning office and then they keep that cop you guys wouldn't make a copy of that being a builder in here for 20 years um no they they don't they keep it in like behind the you wouldn't make a copy of the pl to show the F they never came into my hands they you do it behind the desk and then the zoning officer takes it back to his folders they they never handed it over to me to be able to make a copy this this was something you sketched out that day is what yeah we just marked it on the plan that day I remembered it was in red pen okay just Mr seruya uh you didn't keep a copy of these permits the permits I have copies well a lot of the stuff that's in the file the file's rather voluminous correct yeah and it's not normal to keep every copies of everything in the file correct I mean there certain things that are normal to keep copies of like like this has a contractor copy the you get a field copy of the plans right because it's in triplicate and pretty sure with engineering approval and stuff like that they don't release a field copy so it does sometimes get confusing to make sure working off the right plan um so with this a fielded copy wasn't released or offered to be copied and not usually okay any other questions from the board questions from the public motion to close the public hearing second second all in favor I I any opposed okay [Music] um is there a positive resolution there's no conditions right just the have to did you have anything in your letter no no all right so now I would I would just add that as far as the deck area is concerned I don't think there's any real objection to that or any real problem as far as the hbac units are concerned I would just point out that they're as screened as well as they can be uh that this was not done with negative intent my client saw to comply with the law and thought he had um it was marked everybody looked for it and everyone was surprised it was not there that was the gist of what I understood when I was there and when I spoke to everybody um and there's no contrary testimony and if he was told to build it in the back maybe they would have changed the deck that was done and they would have built it in the back but they approved it here so while that does not bind you given the the lack of really negative issues versus a positive I would ask that you grant this a positive resolution and adding the fact is there's no objectors here on this one thank you okay is there a motion I'll move from a positive resolution is there a second second either one who won the race yes yes yes yes yes thank you very much I was about 20 minutes have a good night next case Susan padva and Jill salino block 14010 lot 11 318 Park View Avenue ocean 07712 zone R4 uh applicant seeks approval to construct a second floor rear Edition install an inground pool with equipment and pool code fence and two AC condensers minimum rear yard setback is 30 ft required 22.8 ft exist 22.8 ft proposed accessory structures must maintain the required 30 ft front yard setback and 10 feet side and rear yard setbacks 15t front over Brook Avenue to pool equipment and AC condenser pad proposed maximum fence height within required front yard setback is 4T permitted 6 feet proposed maximum solid fence height within required front yard setback is 3 fet permitted 6 feet proposed and Mr uh Richard Tilton C attorney yes hi good evening thank you very much for staying we appreciate it Mr Tilton let me just Mark in the following exhibits exhibit A1 will be the application itself exhibit A2 is the plock rating variance plan exhibit A3 is the topographic survey exhibit A4 are the architectural plans and then for the board I have uh exhibit B1 will be the port the board planner report exhibit B2 will be the board engineer report exhibit B3 will be the zoning denial letter exhibit B4 will be the zoning officer original report and exhibit B5 will be the zoning officer Revis report thank you madam chair it this A hopefully a relatively straightforward application the um applicants are the owners of a 318 Park View Avenue it's a single story well there's a single story with a a dormer on it they they intend to place a second story Edition on the property and to um add a fence to the sidey yard of the property the sidey yard um on Overbrook which is technically then a front yard tripping the variances and uh placed air conditioning compressors and their pool equipment also on the sidey yard but it is a front yard over Brook Avenue the uh plans were prepared by Mr nerut he's seated to my left Mr nut I know has appeared with me and before this SP before as a professional architect I guess you can just briefly give me your credentials if you don't mind and if you don't mind just first raising your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay just briefly your credentials uh my name is Mark MC nerut n m rgu t I'm half of N2 architecture out of Avon licensed architect in state of New Jersey since 2008 and I've appeared before his board I would say a couple times in the last year or so okay and before you begin testimony if we can just hear from Mr Higgins and Mr Matt LA and perhaps address any concerns surely well okay first the two-story addition they're just going vertically up at the back of the building uh the maximum height of the building is going to be uh 2367 ft the ordinance permits 35 ft and quite frankly if you had a conf conforming building with that conforming 35 ft height at a 30 foot setback the visual impact would be much greater than what they're proposing with this so I don't have a big problem with that um the fence they're proposing a six foot high fence uh in the front yard on over Brook Avenue to surround the pool equipment and the pool uh I suggested a 5ft high fence with a 1ot lattice on the top one foot uh I discussed this with Mr Tilton today I think he's sugest he wants to suggest a solid five foot high fence yes we which I don't have a big problem with either um and lining it up with the fence that's on the adjacent property which there is it's either a five or six foot high fence on the adjacent property to the north of the site yeah and it'll be set back whatever that that other that set back and just the board should be aware again when we do the ordinance revise the ordinance we're going to try and do a lot of different changes and one of those things that that the zoning board has been bothered with for many years is fences on Corner lots and we're going to try and relax that standard on Corner Lots okay Mr matl uh the only uh comments that I had in my review letter were with regard to the uh future inground pool that's shown on their plan and that has been addressed with a a note that was added to a revised plan uh which basically says that the applicant's intent is to file a separate either zoning board application or a grading plan for a the the future inground pool and whatever patio they plan to put around it um it's only shown on the plan as futuring ground pool to provide context for the pad that they're showing for the AC condensers and what will be uh pool equipment so so the Pool and Patio are not being sought tonight and this this application cannot be read as an approval for either information so there'll either be a separate application to the board or at the very least if it's a a conforming Pool and Patio it'll be a grading plan that's reviewed by the township engineer correct and the two AC condensers with it it's not part of that that sentence yeah so the two AC condensers are totally appli part it corre and the the the concrete pad that they sit on is oversized which is also part of this application and that will facilitate the pool equipment in the future which once you approve the uh pad they won't need a variance for the pool equipment okay and I'll just if I could just talk to the the fence the applicant would agree to the 5 foot fence the step down is Mr hens suggests the applicant does not want to put the additional 1ot lattice work on it so it would just be a 5 foot fence a 5ot vinyl fence and essentially what's going to happen just for the record so we all know is that where the Lo where the fence is located the the uh Westerly line of the fence essentially is going to be moved about 9 ft towards over Brook Avenue it will line up with the uh fence the existing fence on on the neighbor to the north so that it'll be like when you're coming down over Brook it'll all be the fences will all be in in line if you will okay so with that Mr narot if you would just briefly give them an overview as to what's being proposed for the addition and we can see questions of course uh this is a relatively small structure uh and an older structure at that from 1953 uh three bedrooms one bathroom uh my client purchased it uh as a diamond in a rough and they're going to sort of renovate it to the point where it's going to be a jewel it's going to be a beautiful uh structure uh modernize it and as you can imagine that would entail an interior renovation of the kitchen uh the first floor has one bathroom the whole house so that bathroom's getting renovated and we're adding a half bath uh but more importantly why we're here is the second floor there is an existing uh half story or second floor of the structure serviced by an existing stair uh that is a bedroom as it is now uh there's a door warmer off the uh uh North End of the structure um that offers headro for that space however given uh the fact that we want to add a bedroom and the fact that we need bless you the fact that we need storage space and I may add that this structure has a crawl space it has a very small basement area in the middle or on the side for mechanical equipment but has very limited storage so our addition on the second floor not only entails an on Suite but it has a fairly substantial closet area um and in order to uh to facilitate that this the the addition as you can see um it's probably best if we just looked at a2.0 and 2.1 uh exterior elevations you could see that we've shaded the area of the actual addition from what's there um and that would just project up um as a shed roof um as noted the uh height of that roof is compliant with the ordinance at approximately 23 fo8 uh to the proposed um and this style roof is very much in keeping with the style of architecture that we're pursuing here which is more of a midcentury modern style um this space uh this roof provides the on Suite space and uh provides uh egress windows for the bedroom off the back of the house and the rear wall of this Edition aligns with the wall of the uh building below um and that is where the setback issue that we have is the existing setback is 22.9 to the rear yard 30 is required we are uh honoring that with our second floor Edition on the rear yard it should also be noted that on the uh Overbrook side uh the addition is brought in to be compliant with the 30 foot s uh front yard setback there as well so we knew that we could accommodate uh the ordinance there but unfortunately we could not accommodate it on the rear yard um and that's pretty much the extent of uh I believe the uh the architecturals okay questions from the board and M chair that would be that's my witness that's it okay any questions from the public okay motion to close the public hearing all in favor I I any opposed okay is there a positive resolution all of for positive resolution second yes yes and I'll commend you for doing something other than a hip roof stucco bth thank you go left yes yes Adam chair thank you I I really I appreciate your time and Claire thank you you're always very helpful thank you thank you very much oh it's on there right Madam chair may I may I suggest that we go into executive session at before we adjourn for the evening yes for the purposes of discussing potential litigation okay yeah well well we need a motion to go into executive oh I'll offer to go into executive session second is that can be in all favor all in favor