Heat. Heat. [Music]
Welcome to another exciting episode of Old Bridge Outlook with Mayor Walker. I'm David Lee Hernandez Jr., your host, and today we're delving into the core of our community. Join us as we engage with the mayor and other distinguished guests, elected officials, community
leaders, and influencers to explore the pivotal challenges, uplifting stories, and groundbreaking ideas that are shaping our town. Together, let's ignite meaningful conversations and work towards a bright future for all. In today's episode, we'll be discussing an overview of the new affordable housing
laws and mandates with Mayor Debbie Walker and our special guest, Senator Owen Henry. Welcome. Great to be here. Good to see you, David. Good to see you, Mayor and everybody at OBV. Thank you for having me today. Thank you, Senator, for coming. That's right. That's right. Always fit over. Don't worry. That's it.
Still home, right? Still still home. Absolutely. Uh well, today we have a uh interesting topic. We're going to be talking about affordable housing. It's a It's an interesting topic. There's points on both sides of it. But to start off, in March of 24, Governor Murphy
signed new legislation that changed the affordable housing in the state for all of the municipalities. So, uh, Mayor Walker, what exactly is the new affordable housing law? So, basically, uh, the new law that the state comes in
and they look at an overview of Oldbridge. So, they'll look at it from the air. They don't come down and they'll look at all open space. Then they'll assign, well, they do for every town in New Jersey and they'll assign affordable housing number that they feel that your town could take. But in
addition to that, we have to multiply that number times fives. So now let's just do round numbers like say we get a thousand affordable units. Now you're talking about 5,000 apartments that have to be built in Oldbridge. That's significant. Um and I think that's a big component that probably a lot of people
don't realize is I think many people can realize a need for affordable housing for fixed income perhaps seniors but they don't realize the impact of the additional building. So um stick sticking with the law uh what is the
process that the town our municipality the state comes in says you need to build a thousand affordable units now what do you what do we have to do? Our planner will look at it look at what the state included in that and sometimes they'll include land that we don't even
own. They'll include land they any vacant space they'll look at it could be uh wetlands and we'll try to say to them hey we can't build on this or we don't own this and then they'll come back and they might just say well you have to comply anyway and um there's not much we could really do to fight it because they
could give you more units if you don't take what they tell you they could force more units on you and the sad thing is that these mandates forced on us by the state the builder does not have to provide police fire schools or infrastructure changes. It's all on the
township, which is our taxpayer has to foot the bill for all this. Interesting. So, uh, Senator Henry, it's a pleasure to have you here. You spent a lot of time in this town as as mayor. Yes. And I believe you went through a round or two of this affordable housing. I came in the middle of of our second round or
third round and then I was part of putting the last round together from 15 to 2025 and now as a senator, I'm involved in putting this next round together. was one of the first pieces of legislation that I had the opportunity to work on. I voted no because as a mayor, I knew the impact of what
affordable housing and uh the demands it puts on a community. And in this instance, this is the first time that the affordable housing fair share housing has gone from the courts to the legislation. It was out of legislators would say we have nothing to do with it. The governor and the courts decided to
put it in the hands of the legislators, the senate and the assembly. and this is what they have come up with. And I believe it's a bad piece of legislation. It's a bad uh bill. It's a bad law. It's over 70 pages long. If anybody wants to
read it in depth, I I I envy them. They can go to the state website and just type in affordable housing bill. It was passed almost a year ago. I think it was March 31st. Um and it at the passage of that bill, it was be implemented in
2025. if it was voted in in 24, signed by the governor right away, and now it's being implemented, and it's really being rammed down the throats of Mayor Walker and her town and the other 500 and something towns around around the state. Um, and I believe a large majority of
towns are upset with what we have come up with down in Trenton. It's unfair. I call it unfair housing. It's um, as Debbie said, uh, the builders have a seat at the table now. No, no one should have a seat at the table that are going
to profit from this. Um, fair share housing has developed big muscles now. They believe they can do whatever they want to do. Whereas before the towns did have some litigation um where they could question the numbers. In this case, if you don't settle, they're going to build
it anyway. So, I think and I think the governor has already said that. So, if you don't agree with them, tough, right? And that that kind of leads to what can you do, mayor, when the state comes in and says, "Here's 600 units that that you have to build." Are you able to go
back to the table and say, "Listen, we've gone through this entire town. We can't find a spot. We can do 300 or we can do 400." So, is it a take it or leave it or are you able to go to the table and negotiate? Well, we go back to the table, but it doesn't mean they're going to come back and agree with us.
Um, we don't feel they're going to. They're going to do what they want to do. And if we can't build it in those areas, then they want us to reszone other areas and build there. And unfortunately, this we're not talking about single family housing. We're talking about rental units because that's where the builders make the most
money. So that's what they want to build is apartments. And you know how New Jersey is the garden state? Well, pretty soon it's going to be called the concrete state because this has happened to every town in New Jersey. So I believe right now the amount is a half a million units have to be built in the
state of New Jersey because you just imagine a half a million units have to be built in the state of New Jersey. You're not going to be able to travel on our roads. Everything's going to be a city. You're not going to have an option to live in a suburb down the road as more uh co keeps coming and coming more rounds as they keep because they're not
going to stop. They're just going to keep coming and coming until there's no grass. Well, you know, it's interesting because if it's a half a million units and let's say the average unit has two people, you're talking about an influx of a million residents in in the state and we're already the most densely populated state in the United States.
So, that that's pretty interesting. Just to build upon what the mayor said, David, previously the towns had time to appeal. There was a process to go through. This law takes that process out. You have a very short window, three months. Three months to say, "We don't agree with your numbers." Whereas in the
past we had a a time to prove it and it wasn't there was no deadline. Um the numbers were met we settled and eventually the numbers were met. But in this process that's law now you had very limited window. The window is very short to come up with an argument saying that we don't agree with your number and
that's why I think fair share housing has said tough. So once you reach that point you are now you your due process has has been eliminated as as a town. And what kind of cost is that on on the township, right? We have engineers that
have to review that. You have lawyers that need to take a look at that. The time uh of the administration needs to take a look at that, put a plan together to go back and try to negotiate. For for those that don't really know the inner workings of the township, like how much
does that cost us to try to take a look at that in such a short amount of time? It's taken time. Not only cost the time away from our engineering planner that have to be working on things for Oldbridge, it's been taking up months and months and the cost is unbelievable. But the cost in the future is even be
worse. Like the the schools, the police, the fire, the infrastructure, and the traffic. You're not going to be able to move in any of these towns in New Jersey. If you drive down Route 79 right now, look at that building in Marorrow going on. That's all because of this fair share housing. It used to be called
COA. Now it's it's changed. It's called Fairshare Housing. Fair. Right. It was a whole mount laurel doctrine then then co-a it's a cute little sounding name fair housing that's usually what happens names change that was that was part of my argument in Trenton that the state should be employing these professionals
planners and engineers to look at the state as a whole they were not this was this is strictly political this was politicians putting a plan together there was no professional involvement they put that after the plan was done now they're they're asking professionals to react to something that they didn't
have any involvement then and it's wrong right if professional planners and engineers were involved I think the results would have been different in the law I really do now there's rounds to this affordable housing right and I believe that we're in the third or the
fourth round now and if there's certain um metrics that aren't met then that opens up potential lawsuits to the to the township or the municipality can you explain a little bit of how that works well if we don't meet they could give us more units as a uh if we don't agree to
settle, we can get more units. I know last round we're going to like I think double your amount if you didn't settle. So, you're forced to settle because if you don't settle, let's just say they're giving you a thousand, they might say, "Well, now you're going to get 1,500." It's kind of like extortion, right?
Right. So, our last round, the original number, and I think at the end of the day, we settled for half the number that we were supposedly going to have to build. And we settled, we were one of the first towns in the state to settle that last round. We thought it was
reasonable. And it's not that the units have to get built over that time period. They have to be zoned for. They don't even have to be approved, but they need to be zoned for. Under this plan, you better start building now. interesting. And if you don't, the state will come in and reszone your your town for you. So, it sounds like they they saw that we
they had a plan, they put it in place, you were proving it or settling and the new affordable housing is saying, not only do you have to figure it out, they have to be built within a specific and that was an issue. The the units were not getting built, but that was because they were delayed in court and we're
constantly in, you know, fighting for the numbers. If they would have came out in the beginning and gave us these numbers, I think more units, but Oldbridge has been putting units online. The list has gone down. We've been doing our our part, but I think this is now a little bit over the top. Certainly.
Yeah. It uh it's not just bridge, as the mayor said, it's all over the state. And it's every single town has received this fair housing mandate. Correct. Every town. Yes. Now, there were years ago, I don't know if you guys know the answer to this, but years ago, you were able to
go to a different town and they would accept your your housing, right? And I from my understanding that's out off the table. You must build. So, a town that may have been underdeveloped versus a town like Oldbridge, the third largest municipality in the county, and growth
is important, but controlled growth is, I think, the the biggest concern of businesses and and citizens. It's not like we can go to a different town and say, "Listen, take these 100 units. It's good for your economy, your local population. That that's off the table now. Correct. And they could revitalize
the cities and bring them back too as another thing. But they come in and they're taking away our farms, our open space, and uh making everything's going to eventually be a city. Everything's going to be urban in New Jersey down the road as these rounds keep coming and coming and coming. There won't be any
open space left. Yeah, you mentioned that. The garden state, the concrete state, the concrete state. Yep. Yep. So, um, how are these homes ultimately paid for? Are they coming from the developer paying for them? Are they coming from taxes, from the county taxes, state
taxes? How are these affordable units actually getting uh built and paid for? Oh, the developers build them. So, they're making a lot of money. Certainly, a lot of money. So, and these are all apartments. Yes. Okay. Years ago, they used to build houses. Like,
you'd be in a development and there'd be a single family home. It looked like it, but really split in two. But now it's been apartments. You know, it's interesting because if you if you talk about fair housing, the fastest way for people to break out of their economic um
um area of of finances is to help them make equity, right? And if it's all rentals and you're not doing fair housing that they can buy into at reduced mortgage rates, they're not able to build equity within their home. and lion's share of residents their their net worth is in their home. So you're
not really help you know it helps for temporarily for housing but it's not helping your equity as you age. Correct. A lot of people sell their house and they can live off the proceeds of their house and buy something smaller. These people are not going to have that opportunity. Correct. And that's what they could have put in the law that a
number of percentage of the units had to be fe simple as we said ownership. Right. They don't have to be all rentals. with this bill and this law is rentals. Is rentals rentals. As the mayor, we've built, I think, only 12 fe simple units here in Old Bridge where
people actually have skin of the game. They own them. They're building equity. That's right. Um, this is a this is a pathway to rental forever. For forever. How do you get out of, you know, how do you with interest rates and all, you know, everything that's going on? How do you buy a home? Right? This is where the law could have been different. And I
think that's tough, you know, as as a young family. For us, it was it's it's challenging to try to buy a home in the town that you may have grown up in. So, we understand the need for fair housing, right? The concept is there, but the way they're going about it seems to be just
unjust and unfair. It's really excluding you from the American dream, right? Like this is right. That's what it's doing forever, right? And and taking available resources that could be used for those individuals, right? Taking that open space and some of those things. Um the
the fair housing as we look at it today, do you see that it is benefiting the town or hindering the town? I think it's hindering the town because it's putting a burden burden on our police, our schools, our infrastructure, the fire departments. It's a it's been a big
burden. Well, thank you. And it's we believe it's going to have a negative impact on the entire state, not just the towns and the traffic. Certainly, the infrastructure is not here in New Jersey. Well, thank you, Senator. Thank you, Mayor. We're going to cut to commercial real quick and take a quick [Music]
break. Even the mighty might not see it coming. It's pre-diabetes and it captures one in three adults. But you can escape. Take the one minute pre-diabetes risk test to know where you stand and prevent or delay type 2 diabetes.
Be your own hero on smartphones everywhere at doi havep pre-diabetes.org. How do you know when you've made the right decision? It's the feeling you get in your gut. The one that tells you what's right or wrong. It's the one that says,
"Sure, I can have a drink." Or the feeling that says, "Okay, I've been drinking. Now what?" It's the voice inside you that says, "I'm buzzed. Better leave the car when it's time to go. Plan ahead. Catch a sober
ride. Buzz driving is drunk driving. [Music] Thank you for calling the National Problem Gambling Helpline. How can I help? So glad you can make it. Be right there.
Wait. Use the shovel and bucket of water. Remember, drown, stir, drown, feel. Then make sure it's cool. Where'd you learn that? smokyberry.com. Brushed upon some tips before we left. Don't want to start a
wildfire, right? [Music] Only you can prevent wildfires. [Music] And welcome back to Old Bridge Outlook with Mayor Debbie Walker. I'm David
Hernandez and we're here with our special guest, Senator Owen Henry. We're going to continue our conversation on the fair housing law. But before we do so, we cover quite a bit of ground, but for the viewers here, we want to be able to give you contact information down to the state. You can contact Governor
Murphy. You can do it by a number of different ways. You can do it by text, which is uh area code 7326055455. You could also do it by phone calling down into Trenton, which is going to be area code 6092926000. Uh by email, you can email
constituent.reations NJ.gov. Uh there's mailing addresses there on the website, so you can certainly get there. The website is nj.gov gov backspace governor backspace contact backspace all uh and that's where you'll be able to contact the
governor with any of your concerns uh requests um comments I'm certainly sure they'll uh they'll get to them back to affordable housing fair housing right it's a it's a really interesting topic it's changed it's morphed over the years
we talked a lot about what's happening down in Trenton we're talked a lot about mayor what you're having to deal with with these mandates that are coming down. How does this affect the old bridge resident? How does it affect us? And just talking from my perspective,
you hear all these things that happen in Trenton in the township, but the everyday person working, taking their kids to school, the senior citizen, what does this mean to them? It's going to be a big impact on them. All this additional housing is going to put more
cars on the road, more children in the school, more strain on our police, our fire, our EMS. And the state is is all mandated. They don't give us anything for their mandates. Years ago when builders used to come in, if you look at Oldbridge, that's why we have so many grammar schools. In every development, the builders used to put a school in.
That's why you see schools in all these developments. But today, that's not allowed anymore. This fair share housing, all they have to do is come in, build these apartments, and walk away. and they leave the township of Old Bridge with the burden, it's going to put a big burden on our infrastructure. Our roadways can't handle it. The
traffic's going to be unbelievable. Like I said before, the schools, the police, the fire, EMS, it's going to be a big burden and they don't give us any money towards it. Now, when the legislators, right, and I think that was a great point, Senator, that you brought up that this used to be in the courts. Now it's
in the elected officials, the people who are representing us, telling us this is what we have to do, which is interesting depending on where you voted and where your representative is voting on this fair housing. When they do these calculations, do you believe that the state is taking into account we need
fire, we need extra police, we need extra work on the roads? Are are they taking into account the additional property tax or do you think that that's just an unfair calculation that they're giving us? They don't factor it in at all. And like Senator Henry said, this
was a perfect time. The legislature had this in their hands. They could have put this in the bill that they had these builders who are making a lot of money that they have to help with our infrastructure, our schools, police, and fire. If they don't they don't have to give us a dime. Well, it's interesting when you say it's a 70page bill, right?
There's there's a a concept in business that if you can't explain your idea to a 5-year-old, then it's probably too complicated, right? So, on purpose. And I think you've said if it's not a three-page bill and it's a 70-page bill, there's probably a lot of fat and pork. It's not a good bill. If it's takes that long, David, and I think what's
important, you know, we we all heard the statement, one size doesn't fit all. And what you're saying this fits all and just my district alone from Oldbridge, Madawan. I go out to western Jersey where there is no water, there's no sewer, there's no state highways, um
these are farmlands, there's more horses and cows than people. And yet they want to have an impact on those communities, forcing them to build affordable housing, away from mass transit, away from employment. It doesn't make any sense to disrupt farmland out in our
western part of the state with affordable housing. Well, you know, that's a that's a great point. Um, and what I wanted to bring up was there's about 21 municipalities that have sued and um, what what is what do you think
the the odds of them being able to turn this turn this around is? Right now, with the political way the state is, I don't think there's much hope. Um, I think Governor Murphy has stated that he believes it will be upheld in the courts. um it this has to
be through your legislature process. So, it's it's interesting. I have a quote here uh from Governor Murphy. And he says, "I'm not a lawyer, but I will just say as a general matter, I'm highly confident that the law will uphold in court." Uh he continued, "I don't want
to get into specifics of why they filed the lawsuit, but I will say I'm incredibly proud of the law I signed and the lawyers are telling me they're highly confident that it will hold up." That's an accurate statement, David. So, the legislature has to amend the bill as
we do. We always make amendments. I think a new governor, hopefully, Mr. Murphy's days are numbered here in New Jersey. Thank God. But a new governor would have to intervene here or a new assembly and say, "Hey, we're going to amend the affordable housing and and put some common sense back uh into the
thinking here and what we're trying to accomplish." And our goal at the end of the day is to get units built where they're needed and who's and the people who need them are in them. That's everybody's goal in Trenton. This does not accomplish that right now. You know, conversely, so we've talked a lot about
the bad there. there's been some municipalities that were required to build didn't do it right. So then there was there's a true shortage and I don't think anyone's disputing the fact that we need to have affordable housing for people. Um, so there's uh um uh David
Matthau wrote uh just in in March of last year that some wealthy towns have resisted efforts to build uh homes that are economical and long simmering arguments about zoning and infrastructure have remained unresolved and and lacked in the building. They
believe that that resulted in affordable housing shortage in the Garden State to be about 200,000, but the state is now requiring almost 500,000 to be 85,000 affordable, which will lead to 500,000 total units being built. Total units. So, it's
interesting that the law that's been put in today is only asking for 85,000 affordable housing units when the state itself is saying they're short by 200, but then they're going to outpric all of those affordable housing individuals and families by short
changing it by 115,000 units on average. So, it seems like the bill is already a mess off of uh I don't believe the numbers. you know, like I said, I've only been near a year in a few months, but I would have a hard time believing anything coming out of China right now. Well, even if even if we don't believe their numbers, their own numbers don't
make sense. So, that's uh that's that's the challenge um when you're putting this uh in in a 70page bill. But what um what are your plans with this with this affordable housing? Are we going to try to negotiate down? Are we are we looking
at it actively trying to figure out what's in the best interest of Oldbridge? Well, we're going to try to negotiate down because we don't agree with the numbers that they came up with because like I said, not all this is buildable land. Some of the land we don't even own and some is wetland. So,
so that's that's interesting. When when you say we don't even own the land, who owns it? And then is the state saying build on it? Like almost eminent domain? Their plan was based on an aerial view. They did not put boots on the ground in Old Brbridgein or any other town. So, they just looked at it from above the
30,000 foot. they flew over it with their drones or whatever and they say there's open space, we can build it there and they they didn't take into account environmental sensitive areas. They didn't take into account um wetlands and almost but there's there's places in Oldbridgeidge where you can't build and they're saying, "Well, maybe
they should be on the table or if we can't build them there, let's increase the density and build them somewhere else in Oldbridge." So, yeah, because if we can't build them there, they'll change our zoning and make them put somewhere we don't want to put them. So, so that leads, I guess, right back to that original question of our planners,
our engineers here in town, our council, our attorney, yourself taking a look at this plan that they just seems like they they blindfolded and threw a dart at and saying, "This really doesn't make sense. This is where we're at. This is our densities. This is what we can we can
reasonably build." And then really just attempt to negotiate that way in a common sense way, right? Because fair housing is not going away, right? Right. We're going to have to build, but doing it in a in a sustainable manner is is what what looks like is a tall order
because now you're dealing with Trenton. I think this is going to in be on unsustainable in the future. You can't just keep building and building. There's you won't be able to move on the roadways. It's going to be impossible. Uh naturally, the effect on property
values. What is the they're going to go down? Yeah. What is the effect to that family that it's been here 20 years? Maybe they just bought, right? And you flood the market with a thousand new uh rentals. What does that do to the the housing market here in Old Bridge? Yeah,
the rental units will bring down the property values more than if they were single family homes. Old towns need to maintain a balance. You need to have so many single family homes. You need to have so many rental units because everybody is home ownership isn't for anyone, especially young people starting off in their career who can't sign up for a 30-year mortgage. I might be
relocating to another state, another area in the state. And as De who wants a commute now anytime in New Jersey. So I I see the need for rental units but it can't overwhelm a town where the you know more than 50% of the town becomes you know rental then it becomes a
transient town. You have no skin in the game. You all your coaches your all your all the things your volunteer every everything just goes away with that. So there has to be a balance. so much single family, rental, commercial, industrial, you have to have a balance
of of development, a balance of zoning. You know, one question that that comes to mind is when you're building affordable housing and you're only mandated to make a certain amount on rent, what what measures do we have to make sure that the builder is building
with quality and they're not cutting corners? Because if they know, hey, uh, I'm going to be able to make a lot on these, but on this one, we're going to we're going to maybe cut, right? Does that fall back now on our It comes our planner, our planning department. Yes. They're putting such a big burden on our
planning and engineer departments and they don't reimburse us for any of these expense. It's a big burden. Yeah. And they distribute these affordable units throughout, you know, the regular development. And in most cases, they're a little smaller. You know, they don't have the stainless steel as you said.
you know, their their their economy because the builder is building them, you know, to rent them at a lower rate, so he's not going to get his return on investment. That's why they have to build five market rate units to make up for that one unit that they're not going to be getting full rent for. Um, so it's
it's it's it's a complicated very complicated David. Now, the uh the calculation of one to five, is that new in this year or has that been the case all the way through? There's always been a ratio between 15 and 20%. Mhm. Okay. Okay. Well, um we're uh believe it or
not almost at the end of our second segment here. So, want to give each of you some time to be able to to do some uh finalizing thoughts here, but uh Senator since you're our guest. The everyone needs to educate themselves about this and what the impact it might
have have on them personally, whether it be negative or positive. If it allows a senior to stay, you know, in a town, find out the process, how to get on a list of affordable housing. so someone from out of town doesn't move in and take that unit that you think you might want. So, please educate yourself. Um,
call your legislators, uh, let them know what you think about it. Um, it's going to have a negative impact on the entire state. And I just hope we can fix it, um, with the with the new administration coming in in 2026. So, that's my only thoughts, my only, you know, and I hope
and pray that gets through this. Um, we will. I know we're strong here. We will. We'll get through it. We will. And just make it what's what'sever best for the residents. And that's what we're here for. Not for the builders and not for the the politicians that don't represent
Oldridge or any other towns in here. They're making the rules that and I don't want to make rules that impact their people, but as a senator, we have to, you know, we have to grin and bear it sometimes. But I am definitely not a proponent of the affordable as written. We can do a much better job. Well, thank
you, Senator Henry, for coming on and being our guest. to be back in old bridge. Thank you, Mayor. Some final words. Yes. I don't agree with this legislation either. It's being shoved down our throats. I feel that u you should have if you want to live in a suburban community, if you want to live in a city, you should have a choice.
Eventually, you're not going to have a choice with this continues. You're going to have to live in a city. Everything's going to be a city. And like the senator said, it was nice to know your baseball coach and the family kind of sense. Um I don't want that to go away from Old Bridge. And um this is not good legislation. And the reason I wanted to
do the show today is I want to educate people that this is happening and that this a lot of this building that's going on is not that we it's not something we want. It's being forced on us. Just like if you look at surrounding towns, it's all being forced on these towns as well. And that's why you're seeing more apartment buildings and rentals going
up. Right. Thank you again, Senator Henry and Mayor Walker. Thank you for hosting, David. And thank you, Senator, for coming. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you. And this has been Old Bridge Outlook with Mayor Debbie Walker. I'm David Hernandez, your host. Today we had our fair housing uh discussion and we hope
that it was educational for you. Once again, the power of fair housing is with the legislators, which ultimately is your vote that affects you here in town. You can reach the governor by text, email, phone, and you can always write down to Trenton as well to have your voice heard with any questions and
comments that you may have had here today. Once again, thank you for watching and my name is David Hernandez. [Music]
[Music]