Good evening everybody. I'd like to call the order the U December 11th, 2025 Obridge Township Planning Board meeting. Please rise for the pledge of allegiance >> to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it
stands. One nation under God, indivisible, liberty and justice for all. >> Okay. Uh we have Morin Portelli in for Daniel Halahan. Uh could we have a roll call, please? >> Certainly. Mr. Dealama >> here. >> Mr. Lenning
>> here. >> Mr. Hagopian. >> Nope. >> Miss Canon? >> Yes. >> Mr. Rena? >> Here. >> Mr. Petty >> here. Miss Misella >> here. >> Mr. McGisac >> here. >> Mr. Brennan
absent. Mr. Ferrara >> absent. Chairman Lowour >> here. >> Uh Mr. Sardillo >> here. >> Miss Sant. >> Okay. Uh we going to have the swearing of the professionals >> after Mr. Chairman. We don't have an
application on for this evening. So, I will swear in our planner when she uh makes her official public uh or official presentation on the Raceway Park area investigation study. So, for record keeping purposes, I'll swear in at that time. >> Okay. Thank you. Um next, uh well, we're
going to step out of line here. Uh the application HB Warehouse for anybody that's here for that, uh that will be continued. It's going to be adjourned tonight and continued to Do we have a date for that? No, we don't because the
hearing for that depends on when we conclude with the when when they conclude in front of the zoning board. So for now it is tentative. It is scheduled. We have given them a February date for now as a placeholder but that might change. >> Yes, Mr. Chairman that this is being
adjourned based upon the legal juris jurisdiction of the planning board. uh anyone here is out here because of the fact that the uh zoning board hadn't completed its applica its um decision on the application pending before it and that is determining the zoning permitted for the site until that's determined the
planning board doesn't have jurisdiction to hear the site plan application portion of it. So that is why it's being adjourned at this time. And as um Miss Sant had just stated, it does uh it will require new notice to be provided uh because we don't have a date certain. We
have a placeholder for them in February, but it can't go forward until the zoning board hearing has completed and get they get an approval from the zoning board. So if they get a denial, then they can't come before us at that time either. >> And when they get a when they get a date, they'll it'll be renotified. >> Yes. They'll provide all new renotice
for everything. Okay. Next, uh we're going to executive session now. We're gonna I'm looking for a uh motion to go to executive session. >> I'll move it. >> I'll second. >> Roll call, please.
>> Mr. Dama? >> Yes. >> Mr. Lenning? >> Yes. >> Miss Cannon? >> Yes. >> Mr. Rena? >> Yes. >> Mr. Petty? >> Yes. >> Miss Mella? >> Yes. >> Mr. McIac? >> Yes. >> Chairman Lowour? >> Yes. So, members of the public, we're going to have to ask you to to leave the uh
room. These 29 parcels together uh comprise of roughly 534 acres of land of which uh the raceway park property itself where you have the racing and the uh airport
as well as AI IA uh storage facility. Uh it it comprises of 280 acres of land. majority of this uh area is zoned basically the raceway park property is
zoned for ST5 and uh there are few properties that are zoned as R120 residential and then the properties that are along Englishtown road are zoned for EDO1.
The um entire study area lies within the planning area too which encourages infill uh development. It inc allows for redevelopment. So it is within the state's planning area too.
I I hope I believe everyone has seen the study that was presented so that I can skip some of the details but have has the board seen the study. It was circulated by uh the planning board
secretary as well as it was posted on the township's website. I talked about the zoning. I talked about So now basically for any study what I do is I reach out to our engineering
office. I reach out to the tax department. I reach out to the building department, the fire code to and the police to see if there are any incidents that are worth noting. And those incidents primarily really are indications of either um you know um
underutilization or if there's properties are not well-maintained or if that area is to some ex extent that area and it courageous nefarious activities. So especially when there is a lot of vacant
land or underutilized parcels, there is always a case. Plus with the police, it's easy to get any accident report, especially if the streets are not designed the way they should be or your Pension Road, Englishtown Road is notorious for uh accidents and there
have always been traffic issues there. So I reached out to all the departments. um engineering department has done a thorough analysis of the roadway and you see that in the report. There is details about um the upcoming Wood Haven
Boulevard which is under construction and is being reviewed by the engineering office. Uh Pension Road was recently paved so it is in uh a fairly good condition. However, the issue there is with traffic and pension road not being
able to accommodate the truck traffic because of the way it is aligned. So, um I have all the details from the engineering office there. Building department has their data in there. There are some um commercial uses that
need uh that have had um uh nonconformities or have open building violations. So uh moving on to the police data, there have been a number of accidents and you can see that on page
12 of the report. There were roughly 1,184 incidents in 2021. The incidents have gone down. However, there are at least an on average 400 cases reported in the
police department. There have been fire incidents and especially the fire incidents have mainly been at the uh long-term auto storage space on the Raceway Park property. I was talking to the fire chief and what has happened is
with the concept plans that were approved by the planning board. There was a large number of stacking uh or tandem parking that was allowed for these um vehicles and some of them there's oil leak. there has been fire
incidents, it becomes very difficult for the fire chief to uh you know extinguish fires especially when there are six cars. We're trying to eliminate that in future. Uh with OBMUA there are maps attached that shows that there is water and sewer
within the area. Right now it comes from Mammoth County's water utility. However, uh OBMUA has a deal with uh the that area that if if there is future development, the water would be supplied
by OBMUA and they would discontinue it from the Mammoth County Utility Authority. And then going on to the property evaluations which come from the taxes and the improvement value, there's a table on page 15 that shows many of
the properties. You'll see there is a zero value which means that they are vacant and um there are a significant number of those pro properties that are vacant. I talked about the planning area. Now
based on the local redevelopment housing law, there are stat statutory criterias and every parcel has to meet at least one criteria so that I can make a recommendation or the planning board can make a recommendation for the council to
designate this area as in need of redevelopment. And there are nine criterias. First A through H. Um each one of them has its own significance. So if the buildings are substandard, it would meet criteria A. If there is
discontinuence of a building that was previously commercial or retail, then it's criteria B. Criteria C is if it is a municipal or a private or county owned land that has been vacant for more than 10 years. Criteria D is more liberal in
terms of uh if there is obsolete layout, if there is deliterated land use, if the the site circulation is in question, if the parking lot is in poor condition, if there is no screening, then you could
apply criteria D. Criteria E relates to the utilization uh the lack of proper utilization of the areas and which means if there is diverse ownership or or issues with the title criteria F we
don't have any properties that meet that criteria because it is an uh contiguous area that is in excess of five five acres that has been destroyed or consumed by fire, demolished or uh any form of natural ederal disaster, storm,
fire, cyclone, tornado. Criteria G is when you are in an urban enterprise zone. We don't have any properties in that. [snorts] Criteria H is when the delineated area meets the smart growth planning principle. All of the 29
parcels meet the smart growth uh criteria. And then lastly the the ninth criteria is section three which means if there are two parcels that meet one of the criteria one of the eight criterias
and this property is sandwiched in between and you need to include this property just for the sake of sound planning then you could apply section three. So from page 22 of the report for
each site there's a photo survey with the details um majority of these parcels like I I think there is a summary on page 52 where there are seven par eight parcels
that meet criteria C which means they are vacant. Um there are five parcels that meet criteria D which have either obsolete layout, the site circulation is an issue, the properties are not wellmaintained or the parking lots are
in poor condition. And then there are all 29 properties that meet um criteria H. There are again 29 parcels that meet section 3. uh because most of them are interrelated. They're under common ownership. They are vacant. So there is
a summary chart on the last page. But I will take any questions specific to uh the properties. I do want to emphasize that this is a non-condemnation study which means that the township will not
condemn any properties. I know some of the residents had stopped by um in the planning office with questions or concerns regarding is the township taking away my property or if I have a use on the property, can I still
continue or will I be uh you know will there be a stop work order for a nonresidential use? And that's not what's happening here. We are just looking at the area to see if it meets the statutory criteria so that the area
can be designated as an an area in need of redevelopment. It is up to the home owners to continue what they're using. If you want to take advantage of the redevelopment designation and want to redevelop your site, it's up to you. But
the township is not going to force you out. Uh there I know there are some single family home owners uh and uh they have expressed their desire to continue living there. They they can do so. Nobody's going to push them out unless they want to redevelop their site or
unless they want to be a part of the redevelopment process. So uh I know once I answered the planning board's questions, I'll take any questions you may have, but uh I'll go to the board if they have any questions about a specific site. you have the entire report um that
you have reviewed. >> Okay. Does anybody on my left have questions for Vina? >> So Vina, just to just want to make it make it clear. So this wasn't at the behest of the township. It was at the behest of the property owner for Raceway
Park who wants to redevelop his property. They're ceasing good. they're ceasing operations or have ceased operations of the the racing component of Raceway Park. There are other uses that they do now with like the car insurance um thing and all of that than
the airport, but this is not something that >> we went to them. They came to us wanting wanting to develop something >> different, but this is kind of a an agreement that is a better use than what they initially wanted. >> That is correct. And the reason we go
the re redevelopment route is when any um larger area or tract of land is coming up in front of the board for any sort of development, it is better to go the redevelopment route because then you can have the developer whoever that be
uh then work towards the offsite improvements because the roadways in that area like I said Pension Road it meets at a very um weird angle with English Town road and in the past we have had meetings with the county where
there is a desire to align it and make it safer or even uh I know that the county's vision there is to add a center lane so that vehicles can safely make a left turn onto pension pension road so
unless we have we go the redevelopment route and we have a redevelopers agreement in place the planning board in itself cannot not ask for off-site improvements. However, if there is a redevelopment plan, part of the plan can
be the off-site improvements and we can have whoever comes in for development to add on or to to improve those roadways. >> Okay, Vina, I I have a couple of questions. >> Sure. >> Um,
you you uh cited a couple properties you said underutilized. If somebody has a vacant piece of land and no buildings on it and they just want to sit in the woods and watch the trees grow, is that consider it underutilized?
>> So the underutilization is mostly for larger tracks of land where you see that it has a potential to be developed and it hasn't be developed based on the allowable building coverage or the
impervious coverage. But that it doesn't the designation is not going to take away that right. So if you want to maintain your property the way you are maintaining it is underutilized but you could maintain it the way it is.
>> I don't know if I answered your question >> and >> in the beginning of your report you you cite the need for redevelopment. Now Raceway Park everybody knows there was races out there. there's uh uh other
facilities out there. I could say, "Yeah, that that's redevelopment, but how do you how do you label vacant land as redeveloped when it hasn't been developed is my question? You take a piece of >> No, but but with Raceway Park, I'm not
saying that the actual racing track, the main 28 acres is vegan. There is still pockets that can be developed. So it is underutilized in certain sections. Yes,
it is developed where there is the storage facility or where the airport is, but there are sections of that lot that can be still developed. The Nap Brothers owns eight properties. Some of the properties are vacant. There's
nothing on those parcels. For example, the property that is closer to the Mandro Manalapin border that is weakened and it has it has constraints but it has uplands too which is developable. So
that is weakened. >> Actually if I may jump in uh chairman I think I understand your question and correct me if I'm wrong is more being is the term redevelopment as you're looking at it means it was developed and now you're redeveloping as something else. That's just a term that's used. That's
not necessarily [clears throat] what the term redevelopment means in the statute. The statutory term of redevelopment is just a term of art that they use to mean it can mean that, but it can just mean developing initially as well. It doesn't have to to qualify for redevelopment. It doesn't have to have actually been
developed at one point and now we're, you know, under English language redeveloping it. >> The law doesn't always follow the English language. The law law creates its own languages. And actually the law, if you look at criteria C, if you read
it through, it specifically talks about vacant parcels that have remained vacant for over 10 years, over a decade. So >> longer >> or longer. So these parcels where I say
they're vacant, they have been vaceria C to qualify for redevelopment. >> Okay. Now, currently, is there a developer interested in uh the uh
um I'm looking for developing uh what you're proposing? >> Not that I know of. >> There's none that you know of. >> Nope. >> Okay, that's all I have for you. >> Okay. Uh, no. See no more questions on our side.
We're going to open this up to the public. If you'd like to come up and ask question of the planner, raise your hand. Come forward. See no hands. I close the public portion. >> Okay.
>> You can change your mind. Wait, if I may, to to come, you have to actually come up, we have to get you on the record. You have to just state your name. You don't have to state your address under the new laws. Uh, just state your name and then so that we can have you on the record and then you can put whatever comment or question you
have um before the board. >> Thank you. Um, my name is Scott Rubin and I would like a little bit more clarification. Uh I think you mentioned that all 29 parcels
meet the criteria under section H. Um and it wasn't really clear. I understood most of the other sections and I I'm thinking that you know the property that we live on, the parcel that we live on,
um obviously would fall under the H because you say all 29 parcels. I'd like to have a little clarification on what that's about. >> Sure. So the state has a smart growth area map. The state, New Jersey state
has a smart growth area map within its state redevelopment plan. And if you fall within that area, then you qualify for a criteria H. But in the hindsight, it's good when you follow fall in the
criteria H because that allows you to de redevelop your site if you would want to based on smart growth planning principles. So typically those are areas where they the state wants to encourage mixeduse type of developments or
developments that are more pedestrian friendly and can rely more on public transport. And uh it is the design of that area is more focused on pedestrian friendly creating pedestrian friendly communities. So it's not necessarily
like a flaw or something wrong with that property. It's just that the state has determined that you are within the smart growth planning area. >> Um and when you say more pedestrian friendly or would that be something like maybe sidewalks might be building
>> in that area? Yes, >> thank you for that clarification. Um, one other question. Uh, you talked about um, one of the concerns that is driving the need to go into this are the high
number of accidents uh, on Pension Road and Englishtown Road where they intersect. Has the township or uh, any governmental body given any consideration into putting any sort of traffic control signals there? So that
was something that was reviewed when there was a potential developer interested in developing Raceway Park. Not anymore. We had some meetings with the county because remember Englishtown Road is a county is under the county's
jurisdiction. So what happens there is completely under the uh county's control. But when we were looking at that intersection, yes, there were discussions about having a signalized intersection. However, but to have a
signalized intersection there, they the county was looking at a T intersection rather than that optus type of angle that is created right now. But unless there is a developer or somebody uh developing that site who's ready to do
offsite improvements or infrastructure improvements, it would be an expensive affair. So hopefully when these sites get redeveloped, the developer who is uh building will contribute and fix that
intersection as well. the the county themselves don't have plans as of now but they are looking into rope in anybody who comes in. So even for that matter like I know Wood Haven is doing
some sort of improvements along their estate three uh which is on the other side of um Raceway Park or this study area and I know they're doing some improvements on their side. I know there are planned improvements for John Wall
Road which is no longer going to be John Wall Road it will be called Wood Haven Boulevard. So similarly you will see improvements but yes there was a discussion of signalized intersection at that. >> Thank you for the clarification. >> Sure.
>> Okay. Any other questions? Step right up sir. Oh. I live on John Wall Road and you're talking about the roads and everything. Has the townships have done a study on all the traffic that's coming into here that the roads can't handle? I mean,
you're going on traffic now where you're standing online or waiting online to a light for 20 to 30 minutes just to get through. I mean, the roads are very bad now. With all the building going on, are they ever going to think about shutting it down? >> I missed that. I'm sorry.
>> The traffic in the area. >> I mean, you mentioned John Wall Road, which when the racetrack was going, it was a two-hour wait to get out of the development, which I was fine with because I knew about it. But now with all the building going on, you have the same traffic. When we got to do
something that's widen the road to do something. >> See, right now this is we are not at the planning board level or site plan application level. When we look at the traffic, this is just the first step. This is an area investigation study. We
also have the state that forces you to put low-income housing in. And at the same time, the township should be going after the state to give them money to increase the roads to make it better. How come we're not looking at that angle? >> Joe, I don't know if I >> can you repeat the question because I
was I was >> the state you have the low income housing. They force you to do something. >> Yes. Now, if we're the townships, I worked for in Alpen at the time, would they be able to go after the state for money to improve the roads? Because >> as everything's getting worse, the roads
aren't getting bigger, >> right? No. I mean, I I think I understand what you're saying. And and ultimately, the answer is no, because affordable housing, like many other things the state puts down, is an unfunded mandate. It says you have to do it, municipalities, but we're not giving you any money to do it. You just have to do it. >> But I mean, we have to do something
about the roads. We just can't keep >> I don't disagree with you. Just I'm just answering that one. >> I'm just trying to find out to put it out there so you make everybody aware of it. I mean, you all know when you go in traffic how much longer you're waiting from 10 years ago. >> So, can I interject? I mean,
this is just the first step, right? >> I'm not talking about I'm talking general of everything. >> No, let me explain. So, the redevelopment process is was created so that we can get those improvements eventually in place. This is just the
first step where we >> I'm aware I'm a building inspector and a retired one now and I understand what you're saying. >> I'm aware tonight what we are doing is we're just evaluating whether each site meets the criteria right if the board thinks that it meets the criteria it
makes a recommendation to the council to designate this area as an area in need of redevelopment. After that the council actually works on a redevelopment plan which becomes the ordinance or the zoning and that's when
uh once that ordinance is in place the plan is in place it will attract developers or it will enable even property owners do anything with their property. Without that nothing happens. But the reason we go the redevelopment route is so that we can have a
redevelopers agreement. An agreement with a developer who is then committed to do offsite improvements including the roadway improvements. >> Then you're asking the builder to make the road improvements. >> Yes. Because the state doesn't provide that funding. The township doesn't have
that type of money to do those improvements. And plus, not all the roads are ours. So if you notice Pension Road is the township road. It was paved in 2018 and there was some resurfacing
and milling done uh in 2020 as well. But um Englishtown Road which is the main bottleneck or where the traffic is, it's a county road. So the improvements have to come from the county. And what in my experience what is going to happen is
once there is a developer the township along along with the county will work towards making the developer do these off-site improvements. >> But if the planning board would stop putting the building forward wouldn't that cause the state to come down and maybe open up something so they could
talk about redoing the roads? >> I don't believe so. >> That's when one hand has to talk the other sooner or later. So I'll I'll jump in where I can and Joe stop me where I kind of go. So as the s as the council person up here. So if we do not zone
things the the certain ways or do what we have to do. The state will just come in. They will allow builders. Builders come in and they do this. It's called a builder's remedy suit. The builder will come in and look at a piece a parcel of land and say this is where I want to put. You're not meeting the the
affordable housing need that uh that was put on you. And I believe ours is 671 >> 73 >> 673. >> So they can come in and say, "I I'll meet your need here. We're going to build it." Right? Then we don't have a
redevelopers agreement in place. So they'll build and then walk away, >> right? and they won't do any improvements and they'll stick it to the rest of the town to make those improvements because eventually someone's going to have to stop and say we need to make these improvements
through you know hecking high water we need to get it done and then it becomes a taxpayer funded thing. In this case, what would happen is should the the rest of the council approve this and we go into a redevelopers um agreement with
with the current owner, let's just say they're the ones who are doing it, um we would require them to one, they always have to do traffic studies when they come up here. And based off of traffic studies that not only the developers would do, but also the township would do, we would then put into their
agreements that they have to do X, Y, and Z and improve the road, wider road, put traffic signals here, you know, roundabouts there, whatever that might be, whatever, you know, these are above my my skis. But that's what would be part of those plans. And they would have
to make those improvements as either during or before the developers the development happening. So the roadway would be improved as part of the redevelopment uh agreement. >> Okay. Doesn't help their situations, but
that's fine. Basically make it appear to you so you understand everybody's going through fighting the traffic around here. >> Oh, and we >> I know you >> No, no, no. I I understand that we actually do have a a person that sits on this board that sit that lives within
walking distance of the site. So we we do have intimate knowledge of that and we we do agree that there will need to be significant improvements to the the roadway. >> Okay. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh any one else would
have a question? Okay. Step right up. >> Hi. Uh Debbie, I just want to know um your development that you talking about with Raceway Park selling their property in the back part of it. I'm very well aware 45 years I've lived right there
Pension Road. They are my backyard neighbors. Okay. So, what I want to know is that all the stuff where they want to sell, okay, the ball field behind me is not being touched. And the circler track, is the circular track being touched? because I want to know if anybody on
this board has ever been down there when the when they're uh when it's the dragsters, not the dragsters, the uh the drifting and the cars when you go down Pension Road when you can't even see I want to know how you're going to develop back there when when you that track is
going there's times you can't even see my house because the white smoke and the rubber burning is so bad and so intense all the way down Englishtown Road. So how is that how's how's all this building going to be bu built there and that that's going to stay there like that.
>> See tonight we are only talking about the area investigation study or whether the sites meet the criteria or not. We are not discussing the redevelopment plan. The plan is a much later stage
when it'll be it will be presented to the council tonight. the the questions should be specific to the study whether it qualifies but I hear you I mean I have been to that area numerous times while I was working on the study so I'm
fully aware of what goes on >> okay because you can't even breathe down there so I just like to know so let me ask just one more question if it this is part of tonight or not what about the water and the sewage that you say that comes from Mammoth >> right >> which which the water down Pension Road
is bridge and the sewer Okay. I know for a fact because I paid well over $45,000 to have 1350 ft of sewer line from my house to Englishtown Road to connect because my septic was bad. They wanted to put a the dwelling
for a new septic dead center would have been where my living room was. So I had no choice. So the township did work with me but on on my expense. So 1350 ft down pension to Englishtown Road is on me. Anything electrical, plumbing, anything breaks, that's on me. So every time
anything happens with the roadway and they dig or whatever, do I call the water company? Absolutely. Because I'm nervous because that's all on me if something breaks. >> So from what I have been told by OBMUA is they have an agreement that when that area gets developed because I know they
worked with Wood Haven and Wood Haven has I think they are the ones responsible to put sewer lines in uh along Pension Road North. But what was told to me is OBMUA has an agreement that when this area
gets developed, the water and sewer will come directly from OBMUA and not from Mohammad County. I don't know if that helps, but maybe you should reach out to OBMUA. >> All right. No, I mean I I do pay through OBMUA and I am and when I did connect
the sewer line, I did I had to sign a contract with OBMUA that if a year from now, 10 years from now, if they brought sewer down my my road, I would have to take my sewer line out and then reconnect and and pay again. >> Okay.
>> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Anyone else have a question? Okay, I'll close the u public session for a second time. >> Uh yes. U uh Mr. Chairman, then uh at this time uh the board needs to decide
whether or not it will it finds that the testimony provided by and the report provided by Miss Want is acceptable. uh that the areas do meet agreeing that the areas do meet the criteria for uh to be designated as areas in need of redevelopment and to make a
recommendation that the township governing body uh declare and designate those properties as areas in need of redevelopment. So uh there was a resolution um uh doing that that was circulated to the board. So uh at this time Mr. Chairman I would uh see if you
want to call a vote for in favor of that or not. >> Can we have question? Yeah, sure. Go ahead. >> Um, you know, there was a whole big to-do about um redevelopment and the payment in le of taxes. Is that attached to this? Would that be attached? So,
anything that comes under a redevelopment in this area? Um would not be part of the official tax base. >> Well, no. That >> in other words, it would not go to the schools. It would just go to >> and our our township attorneys here, but
and and Mark, you can correct me where I'm wrong. This has nothing to do with any redevelopers agreement. Has nothing to do with any pilot that could or could not be part of this right now. I don't there has not been any conversation. >> So, it's not attached to any pilot.
>> No, >> not not at this point. It's just at this point >> and Vina just correct me if wrong. This is just that should the >> 18 or 25 what 20 >> 29. So tonight is only based on whether
these 29 parcels meet at least one of the statutory criterias. That's all we're voting on. There is no discussion of a redevelopers agreement. There is no pilot, nothing. This is purely you're looking at the area and making sure that
each property at least meets one criteria and that's my uh analysis and you vote on that. [clears throat] >> Okay. Um can I get a motion? >> I'll second Penny. Mr. Dealama,
>> yes. >> Mr. Lenning, >> yes. >> Miss Cannon, >> yes. >> Mr. Rena, >> yes. >> Mr. Petty, >> yes. >> Miss Misella, >> yes. >> Mr. McGisac, >> yes. >> Chairman Lauer, >> yes. >> Mr. Chairman, I believe the minutes are
being carried because they were not completed in the last meeting. >> Okay. So, I believe that's all we have on our agenda aside from general public comments. >> Okay. Uh I need a a motion to approve the minutes of November 13, 2025.
>> Those are the minutes being carried uh because they weren't yet completed. >> I'm sorry. Okay. Then we need a >> I'll move a motion to uh >> I'll move it. >> Second. >> All in favor? Hi. >> Hi. >> Yes,
>> Mr. Lenning. >> Yes, >> M. Cannon. >> Yes, >> Mr. Rena. >> Yes, >> Mr. Petty. >> Yes, >> Miss Misella. >> Yes, >> Mr. McGisac. >> Yes, >> Chairman Lowour. >> Yes.