I'd like to call the meeting to order. Would everyone please rise? Pledge >> allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the republic for it stands nationy andice for all.
>> Please be seated. Welcome everyone. Township of Old Bridge Zoning Board of Adjustment meeting October 16th, 2025. Adequate notice of this meeting of the old bridge town of Zo of zoning board of adjustment has been provided in accordance with the open public meetings act at least 48
hours prior to the commencement of the meeting by prominently posting in the municipal complex an announcement giving the time the date location the agenda of this meeting mailing such announcement to the home news and tribune filing a copy of such announcement with the municipal clerk
Mr. Mr. Holland, can we have a roll call, please? >> Yes. Miss Andrews >> here. >> Miss Chevier >> here. >> Mr. Rizzo >> here. >> Mr. Scogno >> here. >> Mr. M. Testie >> here. >> Mr. Singh is absent. Miss Gomez
>> here. >> And Chairman Sullivan >> here. >> Before I start the meeting this evening, uh, I'd like to make an announcement. Uh it's with deep sadness that I inform you of the passing of the board's attorney
uh Mr. Jerry Dasty Esquire. Mr. Dasty succumbed to injuries uh sustained in an automobile accident that occurred in early September. Uh he passed away on October 6th. Mr. Dasty has uh served as council to the board uh beginning in 2025.
Enjoyed a distinguished career of over 60 years. He was a founding partner in the firm of Dasty, McGucken, McNichols, Connors, Anthony, and Buckley. He leaves behind his wife uh Elizabeth, his five children, seven grandchildren, two brothers, two sisters, and further
extended family members. Uh on behalf of myself and the members of this board, we offer our sincere condolences to his family, to his friends, and of course to all the members and staff of his law firm. May jury rest in peace. Thank you.
>> Uh Mr. Pat Varga will be of counsel to the board from the same firm. Mr. Varga, >> thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> As we move on, uh I would remind everyone of one two matters. One, we're being televised on the local cable channel. That's CATV15.
Uh the meetings are played back sometimes during the week. Uh remember that if you're going to testify before the board tonight, you're going to have to speak into a microphone so their voices are picked up. Uh secondly, uh it's also simultaneously recorded by
YouTube live. You can actually see it live and then you can look back at the meeting. You can find that underage township zoning board of adjustment and they're usually posted up a few days uh after the meeting. U as far as the time tonight, we did have some cancellations.
I'm going to announce them uh before they come up. So, in fairness, people are sitting here. U but uh board does uh end its meetings at 10 p.m. leaving a half hour uh in time for public opinion.
Uh having said that uh let me go through quickly uh before I call the board's uh vote for minutes that on the agenda this evening following will not be heard 032025Z
that's prime space capital that's location on 12 Pine Street that was for a self- storage facility applicant is seeking bifrocated use variance to develop a proposed three-story facility That application has been adjourned. The public uh to the public hearing uh will
be commenced on December 4th of this year. There would be no further notice. And what that means is if you were in the 200 foot zone, you got a letter in the mail that it was going to happen. Well, this meeting is going to continue to December 4th. And I always tell people if you just go simply go on the
township website, look up the zoning board of adjustment, our agenda is always posted there so you can find out what is on and what is not. These are uh this was uh just canceled today but it would have been on our agenda and probably by the end of the day was taken off. The second one is 41-2024Z.
That's Zer Hussein physical location on that's 127 court in old bridge that was for a two-story addition and a deck. Uh applicant proposes twotory addition of the rear of the existing home and a deck over an existing patio. Uh this application has been adjourned to the public hearing on
October 30th. It'll be our next meeting this month. There'll be no further notice on that as well. And I think that covers now one other uh the last one on the agenda tonight was 12-205Z.
It's T properties. Physical location on that is 475 Marbor Road. Uh that was for a uh training facility and electronic vehicle repair. Applicant proposes minor site improvements uh permeable driveway
connect uh connecting parking lot to the rear-facing bay door change use to training facility as described above. The applicant has uh been this application has been adjourned uh to the public hearing on December 4th without further notice. Once again, there'll be
no further notice if in the 200 foot zone and you're here for that this evening. It will be on the agenda for December 4th. Please refer to the uh website zoning board of adjustment and you'll see the uh agendas as they come up. That brings us uh board members to
uh item three is the minutes this evening. Uh hopefully everyone had a chance to review. Any commentary? >> The minutes the minutes and the resolution on for tonight? We're going to move to the next meeting. >> Didn't put that here. >> That's why I crossed um
>> I knew the resol Yeah, I knew the resolution was off. I didn't know about the minutes. Yeah, Moren was out of the office today, so she didn't have a chance to. >> All right, board members, will the minutes and the resolution will be carried uh until the next meeting? Uh at this point, I would ask Mr. Vargo, would you swear in our professionals for this evening?
>> Raise your right hand. You swear from tell the truth to help you got >> I do. I do. >> This is Mr. Bernie Teter and Dan Halahan from the zoning. Uh Vina Sant, our planner, is running a little late. She will be here and you can swear her in when she arrives,
>> sir. >> All right. Having said that, we have a couple C uh uh design waiver and C applications to get uh through. This is 17-205Z Anthony uh Franken Arrow. This is the R
seven zone uh block uh 26035 lot 117. Physical locations 492nd Street in Old Bridge. So requiring a design waiver and C variance. Applicant proposes the installation of a rear yard pa patio, walkway, and driveway. The proposed
improvements uh bring the total minimum uh landscape area ratio to 40.02% uh 200 square foot where a minimum of 45% uh is required. >> Sir, before you begin, please raise your right hand. You swear affirm tell
nothing but the truth be God. Please state your name this very last for the record. >> You're the owner of the property. Back to you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Frankenire. When we have people that are or have minor issues in their homes versus the commercial entities, they usually represent themselves. And I'm
sure you're doing that tonight. Well, to make it simple for you to understand, we want to know the who, what, why, and where's. So, you're going to tell us why you're here, why you're seeking a variance. Uh tell us what you did. Uh you may have some questions for us, we
may have some questions for you. We're going to turn to the township professional who's going to tell us why in fact you are here for that variance. Having said that, you may want to add more testimony. We may want to ask more questions. There'll come a point when you're finished testifying. I'm have to
go to a public portion to see if there's anybody in favor or opposed to your application. When all that is done, I'm going to come back to you finally and I'm going to say, would you like me to take a vote? If for any reason you think you didn't put enough on and you feel the board has had too many questions and it might not get it through tonight, you
could ask me for a continuence. The board would probably entertain that, but it's up to a vote. Okay. So, that's pretty much how it goes. Sir, proceed at your own pace. >> First, I want everybody That's turned great. There we go. All right. Um, yeah, I'm seeking a variance
for my home. I bought the home in 20 the end of 2019. Um, ended up doing far more renovations than I expected to with the interior. It's all renovated. It's a small house, two-bedroom, one bath. I live there by myself. Um, but the
property was a disaster inside and out. The backyard was just an overgrown mess. the front yard as well. If you look at uh Bing Maps or old Google Maps, you'll see it's just you can't even see the house. It's an overgrown mess of shrubs. Um I've done a lot of improvements. Um I
have two vehicles. Uh they're often parked on the street because I don't really have a proper driveway. There was um an asphalt driveway uh which I have a picture of. I don't think you're going to have it here. It's on my phone and I emailed at Miss uh Porceli uh where
there was an asphalt driveway with a zero foot setback from the neighbor's property before. It's really the only proper place to put a driveway because my garage is in the back of the house. And although I don't pull into the garage very often, I really need to have
access to that. As well as uh I have a small boat trailer. It's really a kayak, but it's large and I don't want to keep it in the front. And I'd like to be able to get in the back. So, I really need access uh back there, which uh I can get the truck back there, but it's it's landscape and I really need to have
hardcape there so I can get to it properly. Um I'm also concerned with the water drainage. I want to make sure that's going properly away from the house and not bothering the neighbors. Um there's a lot of advantages to it. It will make the neighborhood much more
attractive. There are a lot of cars on the street in my neighborhood. There's a couple of multif family homes uh nearby with uh with multiple units with lots of cars in them. There's lots of garbage trucks going up and down the streets and I'd really like to get my vehicles my
two vehicles off the street. Um as well as beautify the neighborhood. It'll be a nice driveway, do nice landscaping in front and just be a great improvement. And uh I appreciate your consideration. I don't know what else I can add at the moment. >> Right. Thank you. Let me see if the board members have any questions of you
first and then I'll ask Mr. Hollyan to comment on your varian. >> Sure. >> Board members on my left. At this point, >> not at this time. >> I don't have a huge shed in the back on the variance or on the not the variance on the plan on the uh
>> survey. >> The survey. Thank you. Um when I moved in, it's it's listed as garage. So, it's all one structure, but at some point the previous owner, I don't know, it's old. Added on to Yeah, >> that's the wrong
>> that's the wrong plan up there. That's Athens 29. >> This should be 492nd Street. >> I was testing you all. >> Okay, I got back at you, Dan. >> So, there is an >> No, I don't have another shed in the back corner. The neighbor has one back
there. The other neighbor has a shed. The other neighbor has a shed, but I don't have a shed in the backyard other than the the garage. Yeah. >> Ladies on my right, Mrs. Andrew. Anything? >> No, >> that's correct. That's >> uh I did visit your property. I mean, I
saw the from the street. Uh I can see what you're trying to do to beautify the uh area there. It all those lots typically in that south area are very small. I don't >> right >> uh I don't Well, the dimensions are there. >> I think it's 50 by 100. >> Yeah. And and and you have you have a
little lot to work with. So, >> right. >> Uh some of the homes have done uh nice uh alterations and uh I kind of see where you're trying to go there as well. >> Thank you. >> I know you don't have a lot of space to work, Mr. Hollahan.
>> Thank you, Chairman. Um yeah, so the applicants here tonight seeking a um C variance for I was looking at the wrong one. All right, so we have the removal of the existing deck and the rear guard paver patio which is 532 square ft. Um
along with a 3 1/2 ftx 33t long walkway and a 24x30 foot wide driveway. Um the request tonight would be um a design waiver for the driveway setback which is 0 feet existing where 5 ft is uh required um as well as a deficiency in
the minimum landscape area ratio which is existing at 40.02% where the minimum required is 45%. Um so it is the variance for the um sorry the design w for the driveway and then the c variance for the minimum landscape area.
The uh L is pre-existing. >> No. >> No, it's not. >> No. >> Okay. >> The what? I'm sorry. >> The landscape area ratio. >> Okay. >> Um. >> Right. That's correct. >> That's due to the pavers then. Right. >> When I said ex, I believe the improvements were done already. Correct.
>> No, the front. The only part that's done so far is the front steps and walk in the same footprint that they were in before. I haven't done anything else yet except clean up the yard. Is the patio existing or is it proposed? >> It's proposed. >> Okay.
>> There's a deck there which needs to go. I have some water drainage issues underneath it and some grading issues and it's rotting and it would just be much nicer as a paper patio. >> I have nothing further. >> Okay. Council, anything? >> Nothing. Mr. Chairman,
>> uh um board members on my left. Okay. is concerned about the have pavers. Where is the water? You worried about drainage? >> Yeah. So, um on the front left corner of the house there, the water drains to the
landscaped area of the front yard. On the back left corner there, it will it goes beyond the deck. So, I will bring it out past the pavers to bring it to the back left corner, which shares other back corners with neighbors. It's not
creating kind of kind of water issue even in the worst of storms with both back drains heading toward the back. There's no issue with flooding >> and the driveway where left and right >> and then the last uh downspout is in the front and that will drain into the
driveway toward the street >> is my plan. >> So the there'll be no drainage onto anyone else's property. >> No, there should be no draining on anybody else's property. It should all be on my property. I have a question. >> Just got us sure
>> on in the photo because we don't have internet. I Googled it and it came up with a tree where he wants to put the driveway. >> I don't know that you're looking at the right. >> I don't know if I have the right one. >> I don't think so. >> Is that the front of your house?
>> Is that tree removed? >> We have to have you go back there. >> Okay. Okay. That's my concern. Okay. >> You have to have the microphone there. So that I don't know when that picture was from. It was before me buying the house, but there are no trees in the front. >> Unfortunately, we don't have our internet, so I'm relying on
>> I understand. There are two trees on the property in the back uh along the fence. There's a pear tree and there's a pine tree. >> Anything else? >> No, thank you. >> Uh there's just one more thing I want to add because I want to be clear and make sure that we're on the same page. Uh
when I had spoken to Mr. Halan about the driveway and you see that the driveway there is uh that rectangle in front. Um you had stated that um you were con I was going to put gravel between the house and the fence and you're saying
well you know as for all intents and purposes it's a driveway so I'm counting that as driveway. So, if that's the case, I want to pave back between the house and the fence, too, to bring it back to the existing what they call concrete patio, but it's driveway in
front of my garage door. >> Yeah. Just just to provide some clarification to the board. So, what the applicant is saying is, for example, if he proposed a 19 foot wide driveway, he would do the other remaining 5t as gravel. My office views that as part of the driveway because of it's adjacent to
the driveway and someone can park on the gravel surface. So, in that case, the applicant is just requesting to pave that whole 24T wide section. >> No, no, I think you're misunderstanding. So, the neighbor would like me to pave right up to his driveway, but I think his driveway ends about a foot before my
property line. So, we're going to put gravel in there between the two properties to differentiate the two properties. >> And then I'm what I'm saying is >> beyond the uh on the You see where the driveway is in the front? >> Yes. I was going to leave gravel between
the house and the neighbor's fence, but if it's going to be considered driveway, I would like to pay pave the area between the fence and the house as well. And I believe, if I was understanding right, you were counting that as part of the hardcape. Well, my my question is if
you're you're trying to create some sort of division between you and your neighboring property by putting gravel to the right of the driveway, is that correct? >> Yeah, that that's fine. So, it's not going to the pave the the asphalt won't go right to his concrete driveway.
There's going to be 18 in to 2 feet of gravel between the two driveways. That will go to the end of where I have it marked out on the driveway to the front of the house. My initial plan because we were concerned about the hardscape was I said
well I'll leave the 9 foot wide by width of the house depth of the house as gravel to try to satisfy some of the hardscape but my understanding from what we discussed was that well you're really
proposing that that gravel is driveway so that's part of the hardscape you're proposing. So I said well if that's the case yeah you can So, you would cut this section. >> No, no. To the right of the house. >> Up. Up. I want to pave that. I want to pave that, too. >> Okay.
>> That's what I'm saying. >> To where the concrete starts behind it. >> I guess let's focus. The real question that would cause >> I thought this was on I apologize. I guess the real question we have to focus
on is would that cause any additional variances and if it would cause any additional variances, it would require an amended application for exceeding the maximum permitted impervious coverage for the property. Um, kind of working on it on the fly. The board can't really permit or deny it because it's not
really a part of the submission materials that were applied for. Um, what was applied for was a 24x35 ft driveway as well as a 19x 28 patio and three and a half by 33 foot walkway. Um, that's the application that's before the board. If you wanted to amend the
application to include the extent that you want to pave that little connector, then we'll call on plan west or plan east. >> Um, that would have to be shown on a survey so that we can then calculate how that may or may not impact any potential future variance. >> Okay. Um so when we had a when I had a
conversation it's been weeks and months really since we had the conversation but my recollection of the conversation when I when we were speaking was I had mentioned that I said do I need to resubmit a new um what do we call because of that and
my understanding was you no I'm counting it as driveway anyway so you don't have to submit a new plan. >> I don't know if I would agree with that but Mr. Varga I I would say it wouldn't be creating a new variance. It would just be changing the percentage of the landscape area. So I don't know if it
could be >> well he should he would have had to have noticed for that. So then the board would not be able to grant the requested relief. >> So then I'll just leave it as gra. >> Well I think the notice was cuz he's already requesting a variance for a minimum landscape area. So this would just be an additional it would if he's
asking for 40% L and that additional section adds another 3% it's really 37. I don't think the notice specifies the actual percentage. It's just the variance itself for the Atlantans area >> for the resolution. We still would need to know exactly what percent that would
be instead of calculating. >> So I would leave it up to you whether should the board act favorably if at when we memorialize the resolution I can give you that number of what that is or if you'd want the application the applicant to come back showing that additional section to be paved.
>> I would defer to the chair and the board. I you know I would rather it be conditional that that could be added to the final resolution rather >> yeah I think just so the board understands >> done this before >> yeah I think just so the board understands an approval would mean what
is here proposed and this section here is that correct >> that's correct >> and it ends right there at the house right where the house is >> yeah well it actually goes a few feet past the house just because see where the concrete starts the existing concrete patio as they call it starts yeah it would go to that.
>> Okay. >> And then there's a there's a square there between where I'm proposing for the pavers and that where I was going to put a a shrub or some landscaping and then I have landscaping in the back as well. >> Let me see if the board of members have any problem with that. I'll start on my left. Do you have any problem with them
continuing it back where you >> the I'm sorry the old driveway that's removed, right? >> Uh I removed the p well the old drive I wouldn't say removed. My understanding and my what I can see is that >> the previous owner just tore up the
driveway and flipped it over. There's chunks of asphalt. Yeah. >> In there. And I've cleared a lot of that out. >> Yes. >> But the driveway was there. And then he just >> threw paper patios on top which were, you know, just crooked and all over the place.
>> Are you sure you got enough pitch to do that driveway? >> Yes. Yes. >> It looked kind of flat to me. >> It's kind of flat, but there is enough pitch to drain the water. And again, the back corner um is bas is going to go to the um to the back corner of the house.
The back right, the down spout on the top right there. >> Yes. >> Is draining to the back left of the lot. >> Mhm. >> And then the down spout in the front is going to the uh front of the house to the driveway.
>> So there's enough pitch. It's somewhat flat, but there is enough pitch. I leveled it. I checked with the level and everything that what water falls between the house will drain to the front. >> Okay. >> I just have a question. You notified your neighbors this as far as the
additional paving you want to do. >> I'm sorry. >> You have notified your neighbors that you want to go >> to, you know, pass the back of the house by three feet. >> Yes. Yes. My neighbor and his wife can't wait for me to finish it up. Any
comments on this side? >> Go ahead. >> Make sure you m Thank you. >> I'm just concerned about the um the the coverage as far as um water
going. I understand it's supposed to be at a pitch, but it does change everything that you've said before with where the water is going to go, how it's going to go to make sure it doesn't go to the neighbors. That's my concern. >> Yes. None of none of the water goes to the neighbors because I I can recap it
for you where the where the down spouts go, but two of the down spouts end up in the back left corner of the of the yard where water drains. It's going there now with various hoses and stuff, you know, but I need to get it more permanent
there and and grade it so that the water drains down that way. So both back both rear down spouts go to the back left corner of the yard and then the front left down spout goes to the landscaping in the front of the house and then the
front right down spout goes to the driveway which pitches down to the street. So all the down spouts are are are going to landscape. Three of them go to go to my landscaping. One of them goes to my driveway to drain out to the street and then what water falls between
the house and the fence will drain forward toward the street and there's enough pitch for it >> whether or not that's going to be the same whether you extend the driveway or not. >> Correct. That doesn't change. >> Right. The water drain goes the same place. >> Right.
>> Thank you, >> Mr. Holland. >> Um, two things to add. one, the existing parking on site, as you can see on the survey, it is not doesn't even meet the ordinance requirement for an off street parking space because of its width at 7
ft. So, the applicants actually creating what is required for any dwelling at two off- streetet parking spaces by doing at least a 20 foot wide by 20 foot long driveway. Um, so I I would view that as a positive. The other thing regarding the landscape area ratio is the the
property is in an R seven zone which requires 7500 ft in lot area. This is a undersized lot. So if the lot were you know the the meet the minimum required size I don't even think this applicant would would be here. So just a couple things to note.
>> Thank you. So you're speaking to a C1 hardship. >> Yes. >> Anything else sir? I have to go to a public portion on this matter. Is that okay with you? >> Yep. Thanks. This is uh 17-205Z. The physical location is 492nd Street. Uh if you're here in the courtroom,
you've heard the testimony is paper uh paper patio, walkway, and driveway. Anyone wish to be heard on this matter, please raise your hand or stand. This will be the only public portion on this matter. Seeing none, I'm going to close the public portion. Final comments. >> No, thank you. I think I've said
everything I need. >> Counselor. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is an application for bulk variance relief to permit a reduced landscape area ratio where 45% is required. 40.02% was proposed. However, it's been amended during today's application to include what we'll call plan east, the driveway
portion that will be paved and a calculation will be provided by the board's calculation by the board's professionals. Um, and furthermore, there will be a design waiver to permit a zero foot setback where 5T is required. >> That's the condition that it would will all be handled. will be measured out and
and be part of the final resolution. >> Correct. >> Chairman and council, if I can request one more condition that we've added before that any adverse drainage effects that occur from the construction of the driveway should be handled by the applicant. >> You understand that, sir? >> Yeah.
>> Okay. We're members. >> Any questions? Someone want to move this for approval? It would be C1 and and a design waiver is Chevro second. Mr. Holland, roll call, please. >> Miss Andrew,
>> yes. With the conditions being met. Thank you. >> Miss Chevier, >> yes. >> Mr. Rizo, >> yes. >> Mr. Scogno, >> yes. >> Mr. Estie, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> And Chairman Svin, >> yes. It looks like you're trying to do a good job there on your property. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
>> Be a good neighbor. >> Thanks so much. I will. Have a great day. >> Good night, sir. >> Thank you. >> Our next matter. Next matter is 19-2025Z. I guess I didn't hear all that, so I'll move on. Uh Nathaniel Cruz, it's uh R30
zone, block 11250, lot 14, 259 Amboy Road, Madawan. This is for a driveway expansion uh requiring a design waiver. Applicant proposes a 14 foot expansion to an existing driveway. Installation of a new 15 by 24 driveway
along Doyle Road. The proposed new driveway is 39.5 ft approximate from the intersection of two streets where 50 minimum is required. Sir, Mr. Cruz. >> Yes. >> Raise your right hand. Do you swear or
affirm, tell truth, nothing but the truth to help you God? >> Yes. >> Please state your name is very last for the record. >> Uh my name is Nathaniel Cruz. Uh, Cruz is C R U Z's and Zebra. >> You're the owner of the property. >> Yes. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> You heard my instructions to the
previous applicant. It's the same uh routine. Who, what, why, where. Uh, we'll go back and forth public portion. I'll come back to you and see if you want to vote. >> Okay, perfect. Thank you. >> Go ahead, sir. >> All right. And I apologize for being a little nervous. I'm not good at public forums. Um,
>> don't be nervous. There's the more the people are behind you than in front of you. I tried preparing a document as best I could. Um just want to say good evening members of the board. Uh again my name is Nathaniel Cruz. I'm here today to respectfully request um a zoning variance for the second driveway on Doyle Road. Uh this request has two
parts. Um one in my opinion to legalize a driveway that was built without a proper permit and to approve its location 40t from the intersection which is 10 ft short of the required 50ft setback. Um first I want to be completely transparent. The driveway was installed without the required permit.
That was an honest mistake on my part. I misunderstood the process, but as soon as I was notified, I immediately contacted the zoning department and started this variance process in good faith. I take full responsibility and I'm committed to meeting any reasonable conditions to bring this into compliance. Uh now, the reason this
driveway exists uh and why I'm asking for the variance is safety. Our home's original driveway opens directly onto Amboy Road, which is a busy main road with a 40 mph speed limit, though cars often go faster. Uh, entering or exiting the driveway means pulling directly into fastmoving traffic. Backing out,
especially, is extremely dangerous for any driver and even more so for newer drivers like my daughter who has her permit and my son who's about to get his uh license. I'm sorry, his permit also. Um, the new Doy Road driveway moves all the activity off Amboy Road and onto a quiet side street. It's the only safe
alternative available and it greatly reduces our family's exposure to dangerous conditions while improving traffic flow on Amboy itself. Uh, this driveway also helps my mother who comes daily to take care of our six-year-old daughter. Without this access, she has to park across Amway Road and cross through high-speed traffic to reach the
house. Something that's both stressful and unsafe. I believe this variance fully supports the intent of the zoning uh regulation at 40 ft from the intersection. The driveway maintains clear visibility and doesn't impact safety or traffic. This is truly the minimum variance needed to make our property safe for everyday use. Uh, in
short, this is not a request for convenience. It's a request for our safety. And by approving these variance, the board will correct an honest mistake and help make our property safer for our family, our caregiver, and the public. Thank you. >> All right. Thank you, sir. We understand that both of the uh issues here have
already taken place and been built, and it was a misunderstanding that you you've sought permits, but you're here now, right? >> Right. No, no, I I I I didn't know. Uh >> I understand. >> Okay. I'm sorry. >> I understand. Hold on. >> Let me go to the professional. Let him explain to us. Right. >> Sure. >> Mr.
did a very good job of doing my job. So, I don't have really much to add, but yes, it is just a design waiver. So, the ordinance requires driveways to be at least 50 ft from the um intersection of a road. This one is proposed at approximately 39 1/2 ft. So, it's about
um 10 and 1/2 ft deficient. So, it is just one design waiver. That's all I got. >> Thank you. Let me uh go to my left if we have any any questions of the applicant so far. >> Mr. Bruce, you have a driveway on Doyle, don't you?
>> It is now on Doyle. I I >> It's on Doyle. And you have one on Amboy. >> On Amboy. Yes. The original driveways on Amboy. >> So Doyle's 25 miles an hour on that quiet road as you said. Why don't you park there? >> No. No. Well, this the variance is for the Doyle Road driveway.
>> Oh, for the Doyle Road, not the Amboy road. >> Not the Amboy road. No. >> My address is on Amboy, but I'm at the intersection right there. So, >> yes. But yeah, the the driveway that for the variance is for the Doyle Road >> and you'll have access from that driveway to your home. >> Yes.
>> And um what about the Amboy driveway? >> Uh as I said before, uh it's 40 mph on Amboy Road and very frequently people go a lot faster than that. Um you know, even for myself and my wife to park, you know, we always got to wait patiently to like, you know, try and back up. That
way we don't have to back up in the mornings or anything. >> But that driveway is right to the street, isn't it? >> Yeah, it's right to the street. Yeah. So, you didn't come off that curb at all? >> The driveway is right down to the to the street, right? >> Down an amboy. Yes. >> Yeah. An amboy.
>> Yeah. >> But you're here for the Doyle one? >> I'm here for the Doyle one. Yes. >> Yeah. So, Mr. Hollahan, what about the Amboy one? >> It's an existing driveway, but by ordinance, he's permitted to have two driveways, one on each side of the one on each frontage. Um just he doesn't
meet the requirement from how close it is to the intersection >> just for safety purposes off of Amboy. >> I I would I would agree that the Doyle driveway is >> a safer option. Yeah. >> Yeah. I agree with that. >> Not that he has to stop using the Amboy
one, but Right. >> I think his intention is to prioritize uh the Doyle driveway. >> Okay. >> Thank you, Mr. Scogn. Anybody else on my left? So the 39.5 ft from the corner to the driveway should be
>> 50. >> Should be 50. >> Yes. >> If he straightened out the lines, would he gain instead of instead of the line? Would if he followed the contour of the home? Would he pick up? Would he might be shy?
Well, wait. This is already down. >> It's already down. It's already down. >> All right. So, I like this. Good job. >> I retract that question. I don't I don't know, but I think the way it's set up, it may be easier if he's coming off of Amboy making a right on Doyle to pull in
>> angle >> as it is. Yeah. Rather than to angle it >> towards plan north. Yeah. >> Gotcha. Okay. Vice chair. >> Yeah. You're not you're not expanding the Doyle driveway at all. >> No. >> You're just going to leave it the way it is. The way you put it down without
>> you're not removing that tree. >> No, no, no. That's that was my thing. I put it between two trees. I didn't want to move any, you know, brush or anything. >> Just wanted to make sure no trees were coming down. >> I have photos if you want to see. >> I was there. >> Oh, okay. >> Ladies, am I right?
>> None. I'm going to ask a legal question. Uh, if the board were to approve this in violation of the ordinance, would there be any responsibility to detach it seeing as it's no longer at 50 foot? >> No, Mr. Chairman. It's not the first It's not public property. It's private
property. >> Okay. >> That was turned on. No, Mr. Chairman, this it's private property, not public property. >> Okay. Thank you. >> I saw it. I don't have any problem. Uh I understand what you were trying to accomplish there. Um I guess you can go through that fence to gain get into the
back of your home, too. >> Yes. >> I guess that that makes some sense. Anyway, uh anything else, Mr. Hollahan? >> I have nothing further. >> Uh anything else you want to tell me? >> Um no. If you have any questions, I'm happy. But no, not on my end. >> We don't seem to have any now. But I'm >> ask one more question. >> Sure. Go ahead. Are you going to keep
the driveway on Amboy? >> Yeah, but just a matter of convenience because there's no street parking. Uh we nor the my goal is to, you know, utilize the driveway for me and my wife and then for my son and daughter to utilize the, you know, the Doyle because, you know, they're inexperienced operators and I'm,
you know, mostly >> Yeah. No, I was just curious if or you were going to try and landscape it or something. >> Yeah, I I'll do that if you want. >> There's no sidewalks there. >> Okay. >> Right. >> So, yeah, that's what I'm saying. So they I'm sure you would want to keep that because there is no other walkway there. Uh anybody else?
>> No. >> I'm going to go to public portion on this. Okay. This is 19- 2025Z. This physical location is 259 Amboy Road for design waiver uh for a driveway.
Proposed driveway is 39.5 from the intersection of two streets where 50 is required. Anyone here on sitting in the court? Ma'am, step forward, please. Please state your name. Board attorney will swear you in. You are being testified under oath. >> Please raise your right hand. >> Do you swear or affirm, tell the truth,
nothing but the truth to help you God? >> I do. >> Please state your name and spare your last for the record. >> Karen Mazio M a Zo. >> And your address? >> To Doyle Road. >> Back to you, Mr. Chairman. >> Hey, ma'am. >> Okay. So, it's more concerns about
some about safety. I don't thoroughly object to the driveway being there. It's a distance away from my house. It's not truly an issue other than not fully convinced that it is in fact 39 or 40 feet from the corner. If you consider that safe, then I will leave that to
you. I think the question is in terms of available parking all along the street and wanting to expand the driveway on Amboy Road if he's claiming that that's not safe but he wants to expand that one
as well or if it has been expanded or something is is my understanding. I'm just looking for clarification understand exactly what's happening. The driveway on Amboy is already built out, >> right? It's already built out and he So, it was just getting a I understood that that was also being expanded by this. I
I apologize. You're not extending. You're not going to extend the Amber Road driveway. You're leaving it exactly there. And you're you're just trying to now legitimize the Doyle. >> Yes. >> Driveway you put on, >> which again, no issues there. I only became aware of this because every time
he does something, the people have leftover materials and they show up at my house and they ask me if I want to buy le a black top. I was like, "Sorry, I can't." But um and then in terms of that, you know, there's extensive parking along the road. If there's any, you know, issues, you know, I just want
to make sure the other concern I have is the day that that driveway within days of that there was a sign out there for a limousine company. And I just want to be assured that there's not going to be commercial use. I happy to have his children be safe, happy to have other
people parked there, but I am concerned that it becomes commercial use. And then how you know how does that continue? It's got, you know, to do many more commercial vehicles. So I just want to be on record for that. It's for residential use and it's not for
expansion of a limousine company next door to my home. Absolutely fine with that. >> Well, I'll see if he wants to answer that. I didn't see any when I visited a sign, but uh I don't know that he's operating or not operating. So are you operating a business out of your home? >> I I I am a W2 employee. I don't have any business.
>> Okay. So you don't have own a limousine company? Not any parchment limiting company. The only signage on uh the fence is Garden State fence. I guess they left that on my you know fence like a little emblem >> badging. >> But uh other than that, >> can I ask you are you aware of what this
lady is speaking? >> No, I've I've I've not personally seen um a limousine signage or business on my home. I haven't had limousine since many years. >> That's fair, Mr. Chairman. I can include it into the resolution. >> Okay. >> Or again could go out. Anything else,
ma'am? >> No. As long as it's on >> We're going to include that in the resolution that there wouldn't be any uses for for resial use. I'm comfortable with it and safety for the children is very important as well. Thank you. >> All right. Thank you for testifying before the board. >> Anyone else on this matter? Want to be
heard? >> Seeing none, I'll close the public portion. Final comments? >> None. Thank you. >> You going to ask me for a vote? Correct. >> Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Yes, I would appreciate a vote. >> Very good. >> Be with you in one moment. Chairman, I can clarify a couple things
if you'd like. So, um the first thing about any commercial any storage of commercial vehicles, chapter 25043 K5 governs that which permits every residential home from storing up to one commercial vehicle um contingent on some
size requirements. So, should the board act favorably, I'm I'm sure the applicant would have a problem agreeing to the condition that he doesn't, you know, violate that ordinance. And if he does, then he's subject to um you know, notices from from my office. Number two, the 14T driveway expansion for the drive
on Amboy Road is part of this application, but doesn't require variance um because it's permitted as of right, but just so you know, I believe that expansion was done as well. Yeah, it was um it was half uh asphalt
and then the other half was rock and I just had them just, you know, cover with a rock with asphalt. >> So, while the applicant doesn't technically have a zoning permit because he's waiting for this board's approval for the other driveway, it it would be permitted as of right under a zoning permit. >> Any questions on that, board members?
Good. >> Councelor, Mr. Chairman, this is an application for design waiver relief to permit a 39.5 foot setback from the intersection for an existing um but proposed driveway where 50 ft is required along Doyle Road >> where members uh you've heard what the
uh vote would be. Someone in favor of moving this for approval for the design waiver >> is move it. Is there a second? >> I'll miss Gomez. >> Roll call, please. >> Miss Andrew, >> no. Miss Chevier,
>> yes. >> Mr. Rizo, >> yes. >> Mr. Scogno, >> yes. >> Missie, >> yes. Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> And Chairman Sullivan, >> yes. >> It's been approved, sir. You got a resolution by the next meeting. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay. Thank you for appearing. >> Thank you.
>> Make sure you get all your proper permits. >> Yes, definitely. Thank you. >> All right. Uh, next application 14-2025Z. That's uh Richard uh Toado. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. Mr. Toado here in the courtroom.
>> What? >> Coming around. >> Oh, okay. Uh this is uh R six zone uh block 4000.13 lot 6. Physical locations 29 Athens Avenue uh South Ambway mailing address.
This for a second floor edition requiring CND variance. Applicant proposes a second story edition increasing the uh floor area ratio to 56.8 uh that's this is 3,692.29
ft square feet uh where a maximum of 35% is permitted. Mr. Torado board attorney will swear you in. >> You swear affirm tell nothing but the truth to help you God. Yes. >> All righty, sir. Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Richard Torado. Uh, T I R A D O.
>> And you're the owner of the property? >> Owner of the property. My wife. >> All right, sir. So, just a matter of housekeeping. First off, um, under the township's ordinances, there's generally a requirement for whenever a use variance is applied for that a court synographer um, is retained and provided so that a verbatim transcript is provided. But, uh, you can request that
waiver from the board if you do not want to have one present. Um but second and more importantly one of the variances you are requesting is a use variance which comes with very specific proofs and if you don't show these very specific proofs under the Coventry Hill standards for what the special reasons
are how it um the property can accommodate the increased floor area ratio as well as um how the negative criteria is thereafter affected um the board would be in forced essentially to deny the application. So I don't know what your background is, what your knowledge of it all is, but there are
very specific proofs that do have to be presented. Um, so if it's your application, if you want to proceed with that knowledge, that's up to you. But >> yeah, we'll proceed. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Um, that's by rule by the board rules.
>> Board rule. I apologize on this. We're going to swear in the planner who uh had a problem in traffic so >> we can continue with this. >> Do you swear affirm tell the truth nothing but the truth to help you gone. >> Thank you ma'am. >> It's uh Miss Venus the township planner.
Okay. U the only thing I'll tell you is this. You don't have to take a vote tonight. If you feel like you're underwater uh as this goes on, maybe you want to ask the board for a continuence. So we'll see how that goes. Again, there are certain proofs that you're going to need to present to the board in order
for us to make a legal uh determination and and a ruling either in for or opposed to the application. So, why don't you proceed? Uh you'll get a feeling on whether the board's uh going to be in favor or or has more questions. All right. Tell us what you did or what
you're planning on doing, I should say. >> Uh I plan on putting a a second floor on the on the house, same footprint. The only difference that I'm going back uh is to cover a patio, which I have like um a temporary covering over my patio.
So, that's what gives me uh extra square footage. Uh basically, walking around the community, I seen quite a few houses that raised that had that were ranches that did raise roofs and that as are as big as the ones I want. I don't know when it was coming to the F. I don't I
don't know if they were including the attic space, which um is using for storage or the garage because I didn't think it was going to be as that that much compared to what I'm seeing around the neighborhood. I thought it was going to be very comparable. >> We'll probably hear that. Uh I'm sure
the planner's going to have comments on it. Um, I would agree with you before you continue that many of the other homes in in that uh Central Park area have done very similar uh things that you want to do.
>> Yeah, I pretty much I' I've been living there for 11 years now. I got two little kids. I'm just trying to make more room for my family to grow. Like I got a 10-year-old and a seven-year-old. I'm trying to make like the bedrooms in my house are really small. >> So, I'm just trying to >> family is growing.
>> Yes. Okay. >> This is only going to be for your personal use. You weren't thinking about second. Uh Okay. >> Um you want to describe what you're putting in? >> Um putting on the second floor is going
to be four bedrooms um of the laundry room and two bathrooms. We're basically keeping uh >> sorry, four bed, two baths, four four beds, two baths, and a laundry room. Okay. Uh we're basically keep we'll get
rid of one bedroom that's on the first floor where with a staircase where we planned on putting a staircase. Uh my son's room which is really small. It's I don't even know how to really consider it a bedroom but and then we're just going to have I guess the the our bedroom my my my wife's bedroom on the
keep that on the first floor just in case her parents or anybody want to sleep over every now and then when they come and visit. >> You have a total of five bedrooms then right? Yeah, it's going to be a total of five bedrooms. >> Uh, are you going outside the footprint of the home? >> No, only on the back cuz I'm now going
to be covering the patio. >> And I did hear you say that. Why don't you describe to us what what that's all about? >> Uh, basically right now I have like a a gazebo I bought from Costco to cover the patio to give me shade in the backyard because in the summer in my backyard I have a pool and everything. There's no
shade. It's all sun. So, we've pretty much put the gazebo we bought from Costco on the on top of the patio to have some sort of shade in the backyard in the summertime for the kids. And >> so, is that attached to the home? >> It's not attached to the home. So, basically what I planned on doing was
attaching it to the home. >> I see. All right. I'll tell you what. Uh, why don't you hang on? Let me talk to the planner here and she'll tell us what's going on over here. >> Mr. What? So from what what I understand and what you see on the screen are the
architectural drawings. The the the drawing to the left is your um existing main level and um and then right and I think the title is incorrect but the um the second the one to the
right is the proposed second floor uh addition. What you will see is the patio. That's the niche on the left side is going to be now covered. They have a a covered patio like the owner
explained. They have um a na nonattached canopy over it. It's like a gazebo. Uh and now they're trying to construct over that patio area. It's already a paved area. And in fact um there is going to
be no change in the imperous coverage or the landscape area ratio by the addition. Um I'm going to ask you a few questions just to help uh you testify because our attorney has explained that there are certain uh proofs that are
required to justify uh you uh floor area ratio variance. So, just help me answer those. >> I'll try. >> Uh, and I've done this in the past when there are homeowners trying to expand and they don't have a planner. So, I'm
going to do my best. Um, do you notice that in your neighborhood there are other homes that have similar additions and similar improvements that have been done to their backyard? >> Yes. Um board members, I have some
aerials here that I can pass around >> came with your memo, right? >> Yes, some of them are the but these are new because this gives an overview, a 3D image uh so that you can see that there are other homes with second floor uh
additions to the rear side and you'll see there are a couple of houses there that have done uh similar additions. Now when at the street level if you're walking the addition that is made is it
um is it visible from the street view? >> Uh >> would you see yes would you see the new proposed addition if you're on the front street? If you're on a >> you're going to see the whole second floor. Yes. >> You'll see the second floor. Does it
stick out or does it stand out or does it blend in with the other homes in the neighborhood >> and some of the neighborhoods some of the house in neighborhood does blend in with? >> Right. So visually do you think there will be any negative impact that oh my
god it's ugly or it doesn't match with the existing home. Um do you see any negative impacts to that? Uh, no. I I do not see any negative impacts. I basically like I have my neighbors coming up to me that basically say they can't wait to see how it it
comes out because they were thinking about doing the same thing. Right. In terms of the positive impact, uh you're planning to stay in the house and help um uh your family grow. Your kids have better room and a better space, right?
>> Yes. I plan on staying there till minimum they're at high school depending where they want to go to college. and the laundry addition that is proposed uh on the second floor. I I just want to say that the newer homes that I'm seeing built in um in Obridge,
most of them have a second floor uh uh like they do have laundry rooms. In the past, there used to be in the basement, but then it it is really cumbersome when your basement uh laundry is in the basement to carry stuff uh to the
bedrooms. I think it's a great idea to have the laundry on the second floor, especially with kids. >> It's basically because my house is one of the houses in the development that does not have a basement. I'm on a slab. >> So, we don't we can't even like go downstairs and play. Like there's really
no room >> and that could be even more reason to have uh an additional space uh for the kids. Um chairman, I don't have any further questions. I think uh he has addressed
um the criterias uh and um when I did my review I did ask these questions and I was hoping to get those answers at the meeting. I did some research to provide you with the aerials just uh so that we
everybody can see that the scale of the house that is being proposed is not um uh going to actually change the land use patterns within that neighborhood and it's pretty consistent with what we want. I I would agree traversing uh
Athens from uh the top 34 once you commit to this development and going down to the block below you there's a side street on the right Venus or >> Spyros is >> Pluto or something like that. It's the planets and I turned around there. I
would say that it's a most of the homes are all have all they were all uh obviously single ranchers I'm sure when >> it's a split between Cape Cod's ranches >> and and most of them obviously were they were late 50s or early 60s and I would
say that there are more >> far more double decked than are still remaining single. >> Correct. >> Would you agree with that? >> Yes, I agree with that. Let me see if the board has any comments or questions. uh after hearing uh miss
>> board members sorry I'm I'm so sorry um there was uh a clarification that I had asked for in the memo I don't believe uh the owner would be able to answer that it's related to the floor area ratio but
Danny and I quickly did the calculations and I think the existing floor area so when the application was filed I think the uh floor area that was provided was incorrect. With the addition, we believe
the uh floor area is somewhere around 39 but nothing to exceed that. So.568 is actually not the accurate number because even visually if you see the houses in the neighborhood the house
existing home itself doesn't look extremely larger and uh 0.5 seems to be significantly large. So, we just did a quick math looking at the floor plan and I believe the floor area should be 39 38
something like that. If I if when filing the building permits, if you could have your architect reach out to Danny and me so that we can talk to him directly about the accurate number, that would be helpful. >> No problem. We'll do.
>> So, we're talking about.35 to 39. Yes. >> It's almost dimminimous then. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Questions on my left of either Mr. Want or the applicant. >> Did the applicant maybe Mrs. One also is the structure sound to support four
bedrooms? >> Yes. >> You you have no basement. So you're on a slab. >> I'm on a slab. Yes. >> Mrs. Swan. Do you think it's strong enough to hold? >> Yes. And he has an architect who is designing it. It's not like he's just extending. And there's other towns, other ranches that did the same exact
thing I'm doing. >> I see. Okay. Thank you. >> Anyone else? >> Am I right? >> Mrs. Andrew, >> I just want to make sure I understand. You're you're going to build above your patio. >> Yes, that's I'm the whole second floor.
It's going to be the complete footprint of of the first floor plus it's extended over my patio. So, I can basically remove the >> the gazebo. >> How many No. >> No.
>> No. >> Anyone else? >> What's the What does it hang over on the on the back side? Does anybody know how many feet? >> It's um I have it down the >> basically like my kitchen pop out's 10 ft. Uh, so the rest of the basically and
from the rest of the house it's going to be 15 ft out by 27.9 in wide. >> The hangover is 5.2. >> 5.2. Okay. That's what I was looking for. >> Okay. Okay. Anything else? >> In good. Thank you. >> I'm going to go to public portion. When
I come back, you can make a decision on whether you want to ask for a vote this evening. Uh, councelor, do you have anything you want to say on the record? uh either in support or uh I think we've put on I think that the the applicant has put on uh the the positive and the
negative uh proofs uh as required. Just very briefly, in your opinion, you believe that in the event that this variance was granted that any detriment that's associated with the increased warrior ratio would be mitigated mitigated and the
>> would be mitigated and the property would be able to withstand any adverse impact as a result of the variance. >> I do. >> That's all I got. Mr. Chairman, >> thank you. Go ahead, Mr. Tester. >> Is this an H hoha? >> No. >> Okay.
All right. Uh, let's see here. Let me give them the number. 14-2025Z. Physical location is 29 Athens, second floor edition. Anyone here in the courtroom uh wish to be heard, please raise your hand or stand. Once again, this will be the only public
portion on this matter. No one has responded. I'll close the public portion. Any final comments? >> I'd like to call for a vote. Uh it seems to me that the board has asked all the questions and I think you've I think you've satisfied uh the requirements. Uh
we'll see how the vote goes. Okay. This is for first there are no bulks at all on this, right? Just just the D >> just the floor area ratio board and it seems dimminimous at uh 39 uh where 35 is uh 0.35 is uh
allowed. Anyone in favor of moving for Dvarian D4? >> Test the verdy. >> Is there a second? Second, loose. >> Can you give that to Miss Andrew? >> Absolutely. >> Roll call, please. >> Miss Andrews, >> yes. >> Miss Chevier, >> yes. >> Mr. Rizzo, >> yes.
>> Mr. Scogno, >> yes. >> Cester Verie, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> And Chairman Svin, >> it's uh great when people stay here in the township and improve their home rather than leaving. So, we're happy for that. And my vote is certainly yes. Okay. >> Thank you so much.
>> All right. You get a resolution by the next meeting. >> Thank you. Thank you for >> appearing [Applause] out of >> uh you can't speak cannot speak from the floor. What's if you want to >> miss Jawitz
>> you remember my name very much. Happy holidays Dewali everybody. Um I'm only asking >> I just wanted to ask you if the Pine Street >> you have a question about the agenda. >> Yes sir. >> Okay. Go ahead. >> Pine Street. Um was that moved to >> I know you weren't here at the
beginning. Yes. That has uh that is been adjourned to public hearing on December 4. >> Okay. Can I ask you I sent you an email earlier this evening. >> Me personally. >> Yes sir. I think so. Well >> okay. um to the the uh to the the email
address that was that's on the page on the on this um >> about the application >> on the no about the application. It was regarding photographs from the property. >> This board can only consider sworn testimony presented during a public hearing and evidence presented during the public hearing. You can't email him.
You can't email the YAP. You can't email the the board members. You can you can email the board secretary. But at the end of the day, >> I think it was the board secret. Well, >> it can only be presented at the public hearing and the board secretary will not be distributing any emails or photographs or other exhibits that are not presented at the public hearing.
>> Of course, I wasn't asking for that. I was actually asking to make sure that it was received because I to your point, sir, I was not sure if it should be submitted prior to testimony. So, to your point, I understand and thank you
very much for the clarification. I wasn't trying to uh usurp any laws or any submissions. I just wanted to make sure that I had covered I excuse expression all bases. >> Okay. But thank you very much for the clarification, sir. And the it's been
postponed till December >> December 4. There's no further notice on that. So I know you're not in the 200 foot zone there, but there wouldn't be any further notice either. >> Okay. I appreciate it very much. You guys have a good time and happy Thanksgiving because I won't see you before. >> Thank you very much. You too.
Uh where we at? >> Vision uh 27- 2023 Z Vision Oldbridge LLC. It's a TCD zone. Uh block 12261, lot 64.
Physical location is 3963 County Road 516. It's for multif family residentials. It's a bifurcated devariance. Peter Clauser is representing the applicant. Sir. Uh, good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the board, your professional staff, and the members of the public. Um, yeah,
Peter Clauser with the firm Hour People on behalf of Vision Oldbridge. Uh, this is an application that we presented to the board quite some time ago. Uh, at that time, we had completed the engineering testimony. We had completed some testimony with regard to uh commercial property uh in in Oldbridge
and also uh the architectural testimony. And for various different reasons, um the application has been uh bumped and moved and and kicked uh to tonight. Um a couple of days ago, we received your professionals report and the fire review
report. Um there are some things in those reports that I think require clarification uh and that the board is entitled to have some more information on. I think our fire official might have gotten out in front of the application a little bit to more site plan details
whereas this is a use variance only is what the applicant is requesting. We would have to return to the board for um a preliminary and final site plan. So um I would normally have just reached out to the board and said carry my application let us work out these
details. However, because it's been so long and because I know that there is public interest in the application, I don't think it's fair uh to the members of the public to come out, sit through all those other applications which were duly handled, and then just be sent home. Um, so what I'd like to do is I'd
like to have Miss Totten, who was previously sworn, but we may want to swear her again. Um, and she's our professional engineer, have her remind everybody of the layout. Um, there was one significant change. We took the height from a Dvariance down to a bulk variance. I'd like to get that on the
record. And then I kind of want to step aside, Mr. Chairman, and and hear any comments that the board may have for us. I'm going to take some notes and give the uh public an opportunity to be heard uh that have come out here tonight, and then I would ask that we be carried to a date certain without the requirement of further notice or publication. I'll get
those other details cleaned up and be able to come back where I feel comfortable asking you to vote. >> Thank you, Mr. Clauser. Yeah, you know what? for the benefit of we have a large audience here this evening. I would ask that uh the witness be reworn so people understand that and her qualifications
put put on the record so people understand who she is and and and what what her licensing is. >> You swear or affirm tell the truth nothing but the truth to help you God. >> I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Laura Tatin T is in Tom O Teen Crest
Engineering Associates Inc. Milstone Township, New Jersey. I have um graduated from Lehigh University in 1977. I passed my professional engineering license uh test in 1983
and I have a planning license from 1986. Both are in good standing. I have worked at six different companies, the last one being Crest Engineering where I've been for 31 years. >> I appreciate you doing that. For the people here and those at home, it has been some time. I do want to refresh
their memories as well. You're a professional engineer. You're known to this board. You've testified over many years before this board and before myself and other members of this board. You certainly obviously recognize your expertise and your >> Thank you. >> So, Laura, you heard my opening and the purpose of this evening. So, let's give
everybody a refresher on what the proposed development is um and where the site is located. >> Existing. Can you open the existing exhibit? Okay. So this is the right. >> Yes. It's just color. All I did was
highlight the boundary of the property and color in the existing roads on both sides. >> You're you're right. Uh pardon me. >> No, this is existing conditions. >> The existing condition. Yes.
>> So I don't know where we are on numbers. Do do you have >> my my records was A5? >> Okay. Okay. So, we'll call this A6 or A5. >> We'll call this A5. >> All right. So, we're going to mark this A5. And Lauraai, just to get what A5 is. It's the existing conditions that you've done. What to
>> it? We highlighted the property boundary line and colored in in that gray color the existing roads. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So, this Go ahead. >> Okay. This property is lot 64 block
12261. It's located at the intersection of Route 516 and Higgins, which 516 is at the top of the sheet and Higgins is to the left of the property. The property boundary is outlined in red.
You can see that Higgins Road actually runs through the property and that 516 is right up against the curb line. The uh pavement is right up against the front property line. The property contains 3.26 to 6 acres. It was a
garden center with, as you can see, many many structures on it and about 95% impervious. Can we go to the proposed Oh, he stepped away. >> Vina, are you able to move the exhibit?
>> There's there's three on the flash drive. The second one is the proposed >> need his password. >> So when we get to the proposed, it's actually on it's one of three on the
flash drive that he had there. There you go. The one that says proposed on it. Yes, that's perfect. Thank you. >> So, we'll mark this A6. And if you could just describe briefly for the record what A6 is so that you can then reference it.
>> Yes, A6 is the variance plan that was submitted. The only difference is that the boundary is outlined in red. Again, the existing roads are the light gray and then the darker gray is a widening
of the roads. Um, and I made the dark color of the building a light color so that it didn't over shadow the roads. So, and it also has the proposed right of way uh highlighted in pink because I
think that this is an unusual site in the way the right of ways work on here. So what we've shown along 516 is a 40ft half width which is a typical half width and one that was provided on
other projects along 516 in the past. We don't know if the county is going to require that amount but that's generally what they do require. As you as I noted before on Higgins a good part of Higgins actually lies on the property. So, one of the advantages of this project is
Higgins Road, which is um in the master plan to have a 60 foot full rightway and be slightly realigned. We give that opportunity here. The existing road up by 516 is about 25 ft wide. When you get
maybe a third of the way down the building, it becomes only about 21 or 22. So, our proposal addresses that situation and I thought um because a lot of the setbacks are off of the roadway,
this shows you why they are what they are and what some of the variances from the town center uh zoning that we're requesting. It has to do with the requirements of right of way. Um, so if we could go to the
rendering, I can tell you a little bit about the proposed development uh on site. That would be the third one. This is a rendering uh update of the one that we submitted originally.
Um because we have while the layout did not change significantly, we do show uh four EV spaces and I think six handicap accessible spaces. Yes, >> I'm sorry. So just for the record, which
is important, this will be marked day seven. This is your rendering. The updated rendering. >> Yes, update rendering. It's got today's date on it, 10:16. Uh, yes. So, this this rendering shows you proposed landscaping, proposed
walkways, proposed paver areas adjacent to the curb line as is required by the town center. And we described in more detail at the last meeting. It shows two access points, one on Higgins and one on
FI 516, route 516. Um, and that's really my review of what we presented last time. Very condensed. >> I'm sorry, just real quick for for me to
be straight. Where's your axis on Higgins? >> It is. >> Do you have a pointer so that >> I do all the way down to see? I appreciate it. >> Yep. >> Here is the access off of Higgins. >> Uhhuh. >> And this is the access off of 516. This
space has been allocated for storm water, although some BMPs may end up being also under the parking lot. Um, so we have circulation through the site that can accommodate rescue, not rescue.
Emergency vehicles, we have three, four EV spaces along in here. We have um six I think handicap accessible spaces uh in this area and there's one space that's designated for deliveries like
Uber or GrubHub, those types of deliveries. >> I'm going to stop you right there on your presentation. Last time you were here, you suggested three parking spaces on Higgins Road for deliveries of products and everything else. I don't see that on this plan. >> They they were removed. Um, I thought
they were removed before when we were here at the last meeting. >> They were removed based on comments that we had received from the board and the public. So, we got rid of them. >> So, now they're just going to be like shrubbery there. >> Yes. Landscaping. Yes. Yes. Um, and I'll
remind you that there is a loading space along in this area, which also doubles as a place for a trash truck to come in because there's a trash room here for the uh trash to be brought out in barrels just before it's to be picked
up. Um, the amenities, the sidewalk is right up against the rightway line, although on this plane you can't see it as well. Uh the side the rightway line runs through the sidewalk on this side. And I'll remind you that both of these
rightways are still needing to be confirmed. We feel comfortable with the one on 516. there is that the right of way in this is likely going to be very close to what it is, but we would should you grant this um approval for this
variance subsequently, we would work with your township professionals to create the right type of rideway for Higgins Road. Um so I think that's a is there any questions that I can answer? I would
normally go to the professionals. Let me go to the board members first. Okay. In case they do have something >> at this point on my left. >> Um, >> can I ask about that? Is this >> microphone? >> Thank you. Is this facing 516?
Is this the back or the front? >> I think you've probably got several elevations there. Um, I can't read it from here. Yeah, >> it's just the the building of the structure. Is this the front >> and is this facing 516? What that is?
What? >> It says under each one what the elevations are of >> the facing 516. >> Okay. Thank you, >> Mr. Sco. Anything else? >> Thank you, >> Mr. No. >> No.
>> Vice Chair. >> No. >> M. Andrew. >> M. Tester. Very counselor. >> Nothing. Mr. Chairman. >> Now I'm going over to uh Miss Sant. >> I don't have any questions for the engineer
>> and Vash is Dari is not here this evening, but uh obviously >> another advantage of coming back and I'll make sure all my >> Bernie can ask any questions. I mean he's >> I'm merely mentioning that Mr. Dar
>> we can get to Mr. Petrol in a moment. Uh and Miss Todd would probably be available at any subsequent hearing. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have all my professionals back including the architect if you want to revisit questions. >> Thank you. >> Just try and leave as many people home as I can.
>> I have nothing at this time. >> Okay. >> We did a pretty comprehensive resubmission. We tried to satisfy a lot of the comments. >> Okay. Um, >> so I ahead, >> as I stated earlier, Mr. Chair, to make this easy for you, uh, because I don't
want to ask this board to vote until I know I've done my very best, uh, with the plan and responsive to your professionals, I would ask if you would open it up to the public that's here to give them an opportunity to be heard and then if we could pick a date where I can go, uh, be carried to. >> Why in fairness, Mr. Claus, why don't
you also inform those here uh and those may be watching at the next meeting what's going to happen? Who who >> So, I anticipate at the next meeting, Mr. Chair, that if we require further testimony from Miss Totten, to address any of the comments from the board, that
that will be presented. After that, in my order, my next witness is Frank uh Mskovich, who's our traffic expert, and then we would have Allison to do the planning testimony. That's what I was going to do tonight, but again, I'm not comfortable where I'm at, especially with the firemen because you know how
important that is to me and I know how important that is to you and I want to make sure that Mr. Miller understands we're going to be able to satisfy his concerns. Uh, but I just didn't have enough time to do that. >> I think that's a wise decision. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, and and >> that's what you'll see next time. >> We'll hear we'll hear from Mr. Misovich. The planner is Miss Coffin.
>> Is Miss Coffin. Yeah. You're gonna hear from both of them tonight, too. >> All right. uh and and we'll get a date for that. So, if you're here in the audience in this matter tonight, I'm going to open up a public portion in in in short order. Uh but there are more
witnesses to be heard uh yet on this application. So, that's going to be at the subsequent date which I'm going to ask >> December 18th. >> How does that sound? >> I'm going to make it work. >> Um >> 128 >> close to Christmas.
>> Just going to look at my phone. Mr. here >> if 12 Why don't we put down 1218 if that's if all the professionals can can >> Oh, be here. >> You're comfortable with that? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Uh Oh, yeah.
So, if you're sitting in a courtroom tonight, we're going to have an open public portion, but the next scheduled uh application a hearing would be marked down for December the 18th of this year. Okay. All right. Uh having
said that, I'm going to open up the public portion on this. This is Vision Oldbridge LLC 27-2023Z. Once again, these are multif family residence location is 3963 County Route 516. This is a bifurcated application
seeking key variance use. Uh is anyone interested? Uh how many people are interested? Just raise your hands that I'm going to get to. Okay. I'll do it in an orderly fashion. We want to hear from everyone. Uh there will be a microphone of course here. You can have just that
accordingly. Before you testify, you must be sworn uh giving your name and address because it becomes part of the permanent record. Am I correct, counselor? >> That's correct, Mr. Chairman. >> By law. >> Correct. >> Okay. Uh and I'll I'll try and get through as many as we can here. We got
plenty of time. I would just ask people don't be repetitive. If you have uh you know questions that have already been answered, please don't ask the same uh the same question again. But as I said, I don't really have a particular order. Uh I saw your hand first, sir, over there. If you you Yep. Don't look the
way. You If you can be first, sir. Come on up. And I know I would assume there's probably people here that also testified at the at the last uh hearing back in May, but that's okay. Okay. That's all right. Ma'am, go ahead. >> Raise your right hand. Do you swear or
affirm, tell the truth, and nothing but the truth? So, I help you, God. >> I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> My name is Sam Rizzo. R I Z O. >> And your address, please. >> I live at 125 Aberdine Road, Madan. I'm
here as a member of the Madison Township Historical Society. >> Go ahead, Mr. Rizzo. >> Um, Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure if uh these questions have already been answered, but um has there been a discussion before the board about the
historic building? >> None that I recall on the record. I know that there was comment in in >> I can address that memorandum. >> Yeah, I can address that if you'd like. >> Sure. >> There was no historic building on the property. We've been through this. I provided the board with a legal
memorandum regarding same the home has been demolished that was on the property in accordance with your rules and regulations. Notice of that was provided to the neighboring property owners. I understand from speaking with M Shapiro that uh a presentation was made to your council on I believe Tuesday night to
that effect. So here's there's a national registry not located on that. There's a state registry not located on that. There is a township ordinance which identifies all of your historical properties. Not located on that. There was a study done um probably before I
was born which looked at this property and said that it's not worthy of being placed on a registry. That study was later affirmed again and identified as not on a registry. So this is nothing other than another house in the township of Old Bridge. Some people may have a
personal opinion about it, but as much as you make me follow the law when I get a chance to rely upon it, I'm going to do that. Okay. >> Chairman, if I may. >> Sure. Go ahead. um only because I know this question has been coming up so
frequently. Um, uh, Miss Shapiro on Tuesday night made a detailed presentation, but just for the benefit of the zoning board, I'm actually carrying the document, the original
document that um has u this site uh evaluation. It was site 69, which clearly says that uh it's not on the national register. it's it's not a historic site and that there is no
reason to um uh there's actually a page here um that says that registry eligibility it's it's marked as no and
just uh to reiterate that in 2008 Richard Grub and Associates performed a consequent uh study and in that report too, he indicates regarding this site that um
the according to the 1981 survey, a barn once stood to the south of the existing house. It was demolished and some of the remaining barn tenant members were used in the building of a fence on this property. Many of the windows have been
replaced with 61 sashes. The brick foundation is no longer visible having been covered with staco. And at the end of the report it says no further action or research required. So um there was a
detailed presentation in front of the council. Um Mr. Clauser had reached out to our office. We provided him with the information and this was prior to the first hearing, prior to them coming and
making the initial presentation. So there has been communication between the planning department and the applicant on this matter numerous times. >> Uh did the council take any action or did they memorialize anything? >> There was no action required. It was
just because there were uh a lot of people questioning the demolition of the building that the council thought it was necessary for uh one of us to come and offer explanation. So, Miss Shapiro at
the council meeting gave a detailed summary of uh everything that transpired between the applicant, us and the historic commission. There were email exchanges between me, Nicole and uh Mr.
Puchelli who is I think heads the historic commission and he too had issued a letter acknowledging that this site is not on the national registar or it's not a historic site and
we do have that letter we had it as one of the exhibits to the council. >> Okay. just to also for the board to know how thoughtful I was with this in my guidance to my my client. We appeared at one of the historic commission meetings
and I you know I I I presented this evidence to them and asked for their support which was denied. Um but you know it is what it is. It it is not a historic property. Uh it's just a belief that some have um and it's just perpetuated a bit.
>> Okay. Mr. Riza, >> Mr. chairman. Um, I could agree that it's not a historical property, but then I we'd all be wrong. It is historic. It's historic by the township ordinances. It's permitted to be historic by the uh state law, municipal
land use law, and uh I would like to go through why I believe it is historic. >> Should we have a discussion about a building that will no longer exist? I'm going to ask I'm going ask the council. Uh, would this be proper?
>> At this point, it's not he's he's certainly welcome to present any evidence, any testimony he wants, but at the end of the day, it's at the end of the day, it's not recognized as a historic property. And based off the and based off the township's ordinances, it's not listed there. Based off the state register, it's not listed there.
Based off the National Register, it's not listed there. So, while you're certainly entitled to present any evidence you would like, um, it's not necessarily relevant to the board's consideration. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully disagree. The ordinance does list this as historic
property. I The ordinance hasn't been followed and somehow it's gotten into the mind of some people that it has to be on the National Registry to be historic property. That's not correct. >> With all due respect, Mr. Rizzo is a learned man and former planner here for
years and and and I respect your your uh your knowledge and and although you've done for the community and in your planning position, I don't know how this is going to be mitigated here tonight. Uh I don't know what this board can do
for you uh other than we have a we have documentation that's been presented to the council. We have the applicants attorney uh backed up by the uh professionals from the townships saying
that it doesn't qualify by is it national or is it state standards >> any of them including your local >> any all of the above I if you have something to the contrary >> yes the ordinance is to the contrary the
state law is to the contrary there's nothing in the state law that says it has to be on a state or national registry in order to be considered a historic site in the township of Albridge that's written in the municipal land use law >> privately owned property. >> I think you have to follow the municipal
land use law. I think you have to follow the township ordinance. The township ordinance designates this in many ways as a historic site in the township. The municipal land use law allows townships to designate properties as a scenic site, as a cultural site, as a vista, as
a historic site. It doesn't have to be on registry for any of those. It has it can be designated by the township for the township's reasons. >> And it has not been >> and it has been >> has not been it's not listed in your ordinance under historic sites. Why do we have to keep going through this, Mr.
Chair? >> You haven't gone through it with with the ordinance. You haven't read the ordinance. I have I haven't seen that in the in the uh >> there is a list in your ordinance of historic sites that the council has included. This is not included. >> This is just an attempt to smear the applicant and make it look like a bad
application. Let me ask you a bad >> Excuse me. Do you have proof that this property is listed and recognized by the township as a historic piece of property? >> Yes. >> What is that proof? >> That's the proof that I wanted to present to you. >> What is that proof?
Is it a resolution? Is it an ordinance? Is it a letter? It's an >> ordinance. >> You read the t ordinance. You will see where the proof is in the t ordinance and I'll be happy to go through it. >> And it identifies a specific property. >> Nope. It's not identified by specific property in the ordinance. It's is
defined in the ordinance as a as a historic property. >> So he's not interpreting a characteristic from an ordinance to determine that characteristics. It's a requirement in the ordinance. And that requirement says that if you don't meet the requirement, it requires a Dvariance. It hasn't been applied. It
hasn't even been to this board for an interpretation. >> But the township has never specifically recognized this piece of property. >> The township has indirectly. >> No, no, no, no, not indirectly. My question is very simple. Directly, has the township directly identified this
piece of property as a historic parcel? >> Yes. >> Directly? >> Yes. >> When >> in the ordinance? in the ordinance. It said if you know you won't let me present what's in the ordinance. I'd like you to see what's in the ordinance rather than just us debate about whether
or not it's in some document because the document that he's referring to is not the document that's in the ordinance. The or the document in the ordinance by reference is um it is shown in there in the historic I forget what you call it
um the historic sites. There is as uh Vina said that um the characteristics of the property do not make it so that it meets the historic
uh designation of the state but that doesn't matter. It meets the designation of the township. >> Sir, you're welcome to present your arguments and your evidence to the extent that >> absolutely >> should be applying a standard. Um, but at the end of the day, the township has never specifically identified it.
>> They have applied that standard for many years. It's been it's been the it's been the standard for at least 40 plus years. >> Understood. Please present your case. >> I'm sorry. >> Please present your case. >> Okay. >> Mark your first exhibit as 01 as you go
through it. >> Could you please continue to speak into the microphone because it won't pick up? >> We don't need comments from the audience. Please. we have people from the cable uh station
who will advise us. >> Okay. >> So, the first thing I'd like to talk to talk about is that um this issue of whether or not it has to be on a state or federal registry in order to be historic. I >> was going to ask for one thing. Wait a
gentleman. Gentlemen, gentlemen and the attorneys. My understanding is that any opposition case follows the end of the applicant's case and it's come we've had opposition cases here before. >> Certainly the chair is entitled to
require that any opposition any objective present their evidence at the close of the applicant's case that the applicant can then >> hear you >> that the applicant can then provide rebuttal testimony too. >> Right. And I don't have a problem with you doing that, but I think we have to follow what we're supposed to follow.
And opposition cases, to my understanding, were after the applicant's case to follow the applicant's case. So we want >> if you disagree counselor or if you disagree counselor I obviously I have to uh take your your counsel but uh any
opposition case that we've had before this board has happened after the completion of the applicant's case >> before before a vote. >> Oh of course of course before a vote. Yeah. >> Mr. Chairman, you're entirely within your right to um require that to be done and at this point limit it only to
public comment on >> right >> on the testimony that's been provided. chairman um board attorney if if I may because there's so much discussion on the ordinance right whether it's listed or not I have the ordinance in front of
me and I'm just I'm doing a quick review where it lists the duties of the historic commission and there is a list so ordinance number um it's >> I think we're getting excuse me miss Mrs. Well, I think we're getting right
back into the same situation where we're going to present a case, an opposition case, >> right? But I just want to >> is certainly entitled to do so. >> He is. The only thing is because I know Mr. Rizzo keeps saying that it's it's on the list or it's in the ordinance, which
is not true because the historic commission has the ability to pick properties that are not on the national register, make recommendations. However, that list does not include Bennett House and I just wanted to make
that statement if the council would like or the board would like. I have the section of the ordinance in front of me. >> I don't know that we want to argue an opposition case now when we're on public portion for comments on the testimony. >> I get it.
>> So, Mr. chair. Normally we, you know, we hear public comments in, you know, asking questions about drainage, about, you know, heights, landscaping, and things of that nature. And I agree that those go as we go. But I would agree with you that if somebody's going to bring up a legal
opposition to the particular case, and with your attorney's um blessing, I I agree with you. I think that changes the character of it. Um, and I mean I think it's also a little unfair that I don't get an opportunity to see these arguments ahead of time when my case has
been out there in the public for all of that for all of this time. >> I I don't know that the board's even prepared to listen to the opposition case tonight and and we've never done that and I think we should be informed and have documentation sent to us beforehand to review for council to
review. I have no problem with Mr. Rizo doing so, but I think it should be done in an orderly fashion. I agree and I couldn't object to him making a case. >> Unless I'm told otherwise by council, I think I have every right to do that. >> You do, Mr. Chairman. It's well within your authority. >> Okay. I would ask you then, Mr. Rizo to
to actually inform uh the applicant's attorney that you are going to present opposition case and sub submit any of those that evidential uh materials that you have to the board uh via the
township and obviously it'll be received by council for the for the board >> and it'll be received by council for uh for the applicant. >> Mr. Chairman. >> Yes sir. If I may, if this is a devariance because of the house, if there are other devariances, then it's
not just an opposition case. It's a case of or a question of whether there was defective notice >> that still goes >> that precedes that precedes any opposition case. That's a question of whether or not you've properly notified
all of the >> property owners, the newspapers and and so on that this may be on the agenda. that it may be a use variance for the house. It may be maybe a use variance for I know that one of the the dev variances was eliminated tonight for the
height. I don't know if all the other devariances that uh uh we've looked at are uh still uh applicable or not. But if they haven't been applied for, then there's a defective notice. So you can't even
finish the case without >> and isn't that an opposition case >> for me to have an opposition? >> I'm saying isn't that an opposition case that that their case is their case is deficient >> and the court should know that >> I get to proceed at my risk. I'm real confident in my notice.
>> That's jurisdiction is the applicant's burden. If he's confident in his notice, he can proceed. And if there was defected notice, that's the applicant's risk. Um, but it goes again to the opposition that's going to be presented so that the applicant so that the objector can build his record at the appropriate time
during hearing. During the hearing right now, as the chairman, as you've indicated, this is public comment for the testimony and for questions and the applicant's ultimately going to return. >> So, Mr. Roso, will you do that? >> Exactly. What is it you want me to do to to give information now or to the end?
Well, no, it can't be done now, but you should submit any documentation you have that you're going to present an opposition case. Uh, it will be received by the township and will be received, I would assume, township attorney and yourself, >> correct? >> And the board will see what we are
allowed to see at whatever time that is. But Mr. uh Clauser's client, I think, is entitled to finish their case, their their prosecution of their application before an opposition takes place. >> Okay.
>> I know I've sat through two or three here while I'm uh my term on this board and it's always been after at the completion of the application. So if I'm wrong, I said council can tell me I'm wrong, but
uh he's agreed with me and I would just I think that would be a better forum to do so and people would be prepared to deal with that. >> Okay. My >> I don't know what documents you have, Mr. Rizzo and and and the board attorney can't advise us either because he doesn't know what documents you have. So I think in fairness, let's do this the
right way. >> My intention was not to present a uh opposition case. My intention was to provide information so the board can make an informed decision. >> Um, >> well, we're not making any decision tonight anyway. You, you know, there's more witnesses to to testify. You've sat
here all all evening. Um, so >> I know that. I'm just saying that I believe the record should be complete first before the case is decided because then then it would be an opposition case. >> But the information needs to be be
presented to the board. I don't pretend to be a lawyer and I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know what qualifies as an opposition case other than you're opposing something. Not what was presented here in the record before the board. At least not to my knowledge. I received nothing to that effect. It
was the first time I heard that. I didn't watch the council meeting. I don't know when that took place. You said last night uh Tuesday I'm sorry, Tuesday. >> I'm unaware of that. I think our council is unaware of that. >> That's correct, Mr. Chairman. It's the first time I've heard that. So, I think
uh we obviously we're going to have another hearing. We've already scheduled for December 4th. And I if I don't know if Mr. Claus is going to >> 18th, >> I'm sorry, 18th. >> It's right in front of me. Uh I don't know that uh Mr. uh Clauser is going to
rest uh that evening uh at which time there would be an opposition case, but I know he has two or three witnesses. I believe three. You said >> at least two. >> At least two. If not, we need to bring back Laura line. >> So, it may rest that evening, but it may
not. I don't know. But it can't be it will not it could not be voted upon uh when there's an opposition case pending. >> Correct. He would be entitled to present his testimony as evidence and his um and any witnesses he has in support. >> Just so you're aware, I'm not here to
oppose or to uh >> approval of of the case at all. I'm here to point out what the ordinance says. And it has nothing to do with whether they you he presents devariances to you and the board grants those devariances.
I have nothing to do with that. That's up to the board. I'm only looking at the issue for the historical society. And by the way, I did watch the meeting on Monday night, which is the only reason I'm here. And in that meeting, the there was great confusion between what the
historical society was and the historic commission. They seem to be interchangeable to the to the person speaking and they're not interchangeable. >> Well, I'm certainly not qualified to to to say uh what your evidence is or isn't. Uh I don't, you know, as I've
known you for years. I I've known you a professional planner uh in this township for years. I don't know how you would be testifying and under what uh how we would receive that evidence. I don't know. Would he be saying he's a
professional and he's presenting this or he's just a a citizen and presenting this? I don't know those qu the answers to those questions. So, I'm going to have to find out, too. You're going to you're going to hand over some documentation that you want
the board to see. I think that our council has to see it first. I think the posing the applicants council has to see it first. >> Okay. whether or not it's whether or not the board's going to be entitled to say it. And and I and I think you you well know that. I'm not trying to be argumentative
with you, sir. You know that. I want a fair hearing, but I don't know that we can do that right now. >> So, this time, I guess, Mr. Chairman, do you want to just limit it to just strictly public comment on the testimony that's been presented so that the for the applicant to return? Well, we've
opened up a new door here and and I don't know if we're going to hear more about things we don't even know about. So, I'd like to see whatever documentation you have or you're going to present to us. And I I think we could be if you want to try at the next meeting after they rest their case,
that's fine. If they don't rest their case, they still have more witnesses to to put on. I think that's the proper way to do that. And council agrees with me. >> That's fine, Mr. Chairman. Um again I think the evidence is apppropo to the
application before it's before it's voted on but if you feel that uh >> well and we will consider and we will give it the merit that that it deserves if if if that be so sir. All right. >> Yes. >> All right. >> You need to
>> Yes. You need you need to submit the documentation so we get the ball rolling. >> Thank you. >> Thank you mayor miss Mr. Rizzo. So um uh I think I would request that the uh the supporting material be submitted to the planning department as well because it's
a question of an ordinance. We would like a chance to review it as well. >> I don't know what type of notice is required legally you would know and Mr. Clauser obviously knows how you have to legally notice uh the board. Well, it
wouldn't notice. So, essentially the generally when there's an an there's an objector, the objector's attorney or whoever the objector is, if they're going to present testimony and evidence, the evidence would generally be submitted to the board's professionals as well as the applicant ahead of time
just so that they're aware if there's a jurisdictional issue. But there are times that no evidence is submitted and the applicant and the objector presents the evidence at the time of the public hearing when they're presenting their case as a surprise and it's ultimately up to them. But for all intents and purposes, it doesn't serve anybody any
justice if you hide it till the last day. It's be better if you could submit a copy to my office, copy Mr. Clauser, copy the board's professionals, and then we can get down to it. If it's truly a jurisdictional issue, it's it could be defected, but council is confident and
he wants to proceed and that's it. Mr. Chairman, >> I'm I'm looking for your advice and if that's what your advice is, then then I then I would suggest that to you, Mr. Rizzo. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> All right. Thank you for appearing. >> All right. We'll get back to uh who would be next. Uh gentlemen.
>> All right, sir. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm, tell the truth, nothing but the truth to help you God? >> I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record, sir. >> Ed Lowour. L A U E R. >> And your address, please. >> My address? >> Yes, please. uh 4085
County Route 516, Madawan, New Jersey 07747. >> Now, I don't want to kick this can down the road anymore. I I concur with Mr. Rizzo, and I I guess we would have resolved this at a later date. I can say
that I'm disappointed that the township would fight so hard to say a building that was 144 years old was not hysterical.
Sorry. Um and everybody on the board members were residents. We're looking to have this uh this corridor 516 and the town center to look good. Now, I can
understand Mr. Clauser's position. You know, it it was the only thing wrong with that house that I saw that it was in the way. Anyway, you have a lot of people here, other things they want to talk about. Um I'm going to go to your
witness here. Um, did you say that that the rightway was uh I'm sorry, >> Miss Totten? >> Yes. Okay. >> Did you say the rightway was 40 feet on uh 516?
>> Half width of the rightway is 40T. >> Okay. Half half half width is is that the proposed rightaway? >> That is the proposed rightaway. Correct. >> Okay. And uh the the original rideway is 33 feet, right?
>> I don't recall what it is off the top of my head. I don't have >> it was two rods wide, which would make it 33 feet. Um the original site, uh not where you're showing up now, but the original uh projection you had, you said
that the site was 90% impervious. >> It is approximately 95% impervious. Yes. >> The the the picture we're looking at right now, >> that is the existing conditions when we did the survey.
>> Oh, cuz I must need new glasses because I thought it was all stones, most of it. Uh that's all my questions. >> Thank you, Mr. Lara. >> Thank you. >> Was somebody over there? Gentleman in white sweater.
Hi. >> Uh, yes. >> You say your name is very last for the record. >> Uh, Bill Quinn. I'm a resident of Hoboken, 7001st Street in Hoboken. So, I wanted to talk about the uh house
that was torn down. I two years ago I was doing some family history looking up real estate records and I found out it at one point belonged to my grandparents who bought it from the Bennett family. I was actually a little surprised that it had survived so long, but I thought it
was terrific that it had and that the town had respect for its historic sites. And I talked to the uh previous owner of the property, Alan Steiner. He owned the the garden center and he told me that the reason he had reserved
it and the previous owner had reserved it was because they respected it as a historic site and they respected the town's ordinances on it and they didn't want to have it torn down. Instead, as you probably know, they used it as their office for some 40 years. And I thought
that was really terrific. I mean the town has a long history of being a farming town back when it was Madison town and has many great historic structures that it has preserved and I just thought that that was and
they've done the Catrell farm has been preserved. So those are all great things that I thought it would continue. So I was surprised that it was torn down without any discussion in public among you me members of the board or any
action by the historic commission. I I just thought that was very disappointing. I think you have this tradition. You've done great things in the past. You've come up with a list of 90 to 100 historic sites in the township that are over a hundred years old. And I
thought you would have, you know, if you're going to have someone tear them down, they've had first better talk to you about it or or certainly talk to the historic commission about it and so that people can make, you know, express their opinions about what should be done instead of just being a sole decision by
a developer. So that's my opinion. I I was disappointed that it didn't survive further. I know these are difficult decisions for you, but I was hoping that you would weigh in on it and other people could weigh in on it. So that's that's all I have to say. It's just a
disappointment. This this way things happened here. >> Mr. Quinn, the board will be glad to weigh in on it when we get to see what is being presented. We don't we we have no jurisdiction over historical um appointments, uh if you will. Uh
that's not our purview. Um, I'm happy to hear this and I said if you'd like to join us on December 4th when we may or may not have an I'm sorry, December 18th. I don't know why I keep saying the fourth. Uh, we'd welcome you to come, but I don't know that the opposition
case will start that night. But if you have anything, wanted to do speak with Mr. Rizzo as well. >> Well, I have spoken to them. I just I think it's, you know, this is very disappointing and it's very it's too late, right? It's this has been done without any discussion or input. >> Well, not from this board. Well, I mean
the township approved this, >> but this board has no jurisdiction there, sir. >> Well, who who's who's responsible? The town council, >> just >> Okay. >> So, Mr. Chair, >> so can I just go back? I just so there's something really important and there's a rule called the time of the application
rule and I've just confirmed that the ordinance itself only it it's property is only protected under the historic ordinance if it's specifically identified and because it's not specifically identified even if the town messed up and the and this property should have been listed because this
application is already on file it doesn't have to comply with the protections so the time of the application rule complies so while I certainly can appreciate the historic nature of it, but I did just confirm with the planner that's the way the ordinance operates. So even if it was historic and it should have been listed,
the fact that it's not entitles the applicant to the benefit of the doubt and jurisdiction is proper. >> Why did the previous owner spend 40 years preserving the property? >> Again, >> they were mistaken. >> It's not listed on the township's ordinance.
>> Well, they thought it was a historic site and they thought there'd be consequences if they tore it down. There don't seem to be any consequences pending for this developer, but uh it just seems that the town should weigh in on these things and not just let them happen. So that's my comment.
>> Mr. Quinn, I think that probably your comments would be better served speaking to the to the council because this board has no legislative uh uh >> you have to approve >> power to that deals with historic sites. We don't have that power, sir. And the
attorney just told you we don't have that power. The council probably has that power. They're the legislative body here in the township. So, I don't have that power, nor does anyone on this deis. I appreciate what you're saying. And while it may be true or not true, I
don't know. >> Well, it seems somewhere in the township there should be some public discussion of matters like this instead of having it just happen. I I understand that, but but this board sits to hear an application that's put before us, right? >> And if we accept jurisdiction of that
application, >> well, part of the application was to tear this building down. >> No, it was not. >> Uh, it was listed in there. I I saw that. So, it was something you could have discussed. So, I don't understand. permit to tear the the permit at the end
of the day though to get the authority to tear the tear the house down would have been issued by the um department of community development if it was historic in nature but again it's not on the docu it's not on the ordinance time of the application rule complies the applicant does not have complied with the protections >> there seems to be a real dispute about
what's in the ordinance here I'm just >> exactly but it's notific I'm just saying it's very disappointing there isn't public discussion of public matters in this town especially after you done so much in the past to protect historic sites that's my comment. >> Thank you, Mr. Quinn. >> Thank you.
>> I would just like to clarify, Mr. Chair, that and and your your attorney has has mentioned it in passing when you you have an ordinance which identifies historic sites so that when someone applies for a building permit, that ordinance, I believe, is excuse me, a
demolition permit is reviewed as part of the process along with everyone else. Did you disconnect the utilities? You know, all of those things. And because it's not on that registry, it's it's a house that can be demolished. You know, it starts with the fifth amendment in
the United States Constitution and then it slowly gets watered down by township regulation. So, this is just a great mischaracterization of the applicant. Property owner. People like to use that word developer. He's a property owner. You guys know know exactly who he is. Um
and had no obligation um to have any kind of public discourse with regard to the demolition of the home. and in fact retained me to take him through the entire process to make sure that it was done correctly 100% of the way. I would never be involved in a demolition
permit. Uh I provided notice to the adjacent property owner uh which is what's required in your demolition permit. So that was done and because it's not on your registry, it doesn't come up as part of your review. It's just like another house in Oldbridge.
>> Thank you, Mr. Glass. You have anything to say? Next person. Uh, yep. And then the lady. Are you coming up? Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay.
>> Hello. Carmela Spanelli. >> Oh, yeah. >> I'm sorry. Do you swear, affirm, tell the truth, nothing but the truth. So, I help you, God. >> Absolutely. >> Please state your name and spare your last for the record. >> Carmela Spanelli. S P I N E L L I 3964 Route 516 bird's eyee view of the whole
entire project since it runs directly across from my house from one of my driveways all the way to the other driveway. So I just had a couple questions. Um you said the devariance was changed. Does that mean you're doing a flat roof now?
>> Well, no. the we the the architect was able to create a situation where the property is we still require a bulk variance for height of 38.3 ft um but we no longer require a Dvarian for it. >> Okay. So you're still I guess my
question is it's still going to be three floors. >> Yes, it's still three stories. >> Okay. Um the only I want to say I'm not against building. I'm really not. In fact, I told you that when you came to my house. I'm not against building there. I know he's entitled to build
what's Town Center design, which we all know from the 80s was a crackpipe dream of what Town Center design was supposed to be. It never came to fruition. Even if he built stores with apartments above it, which is what technically it's zoned
to do, you have one on one side, maybe a thousand feet on the other side, another strip, then down the road another strip. it was never going to be a town. So, I don't have an issue with him requesting to change the bottom level to be
apartments. My biggest issue, and I've listened to a lot of these things, in fact, you even um asked the previous uh applicants what it was going to do for the other neighbors, what it was going to look like for the other neighbors. Was it going to fit in with the other
neighbors? Yet, this doesn't fit in in any way, shape, or form. Twostory apartment complex, something maybe like Geke residency or something like that, fits in with the neighborhood. There's all single level houses, double two-level houses. The couple of
businesses that are there are inhouse structures. So, even though the design is absolutely beautiful and it would look good in Norc, that corner is not an urban corner. and it just doesn't fit. Another
thing which I guess I can speak to maybe at the next time is I know that corner. I'm not a traffic expert. I didn't go to school for studies. I didn't put things together from all the traffic study books, but I have lived there since the
80s. My husband since the 60s and my father-in-law since the 40s. We have seen that stretch of 516 every time of the day, morning, noon, night. weather related. Every season that you could go through every day, soccer
season, football season, you know, graduation, try getting out of my driveway. There is no getting out of my driveway when high school is is in session. I used to leave my driveway if I didn't leave by 7:00 to bring my daughter. It took me a half an hour to
get from my house to the high school. So, the point I'm trying to make is that corner cannot handle 68 apartments. I would love, if they're here for variances, I would love to have seen it push it back a little bit, maybe make it
two stories, maybe make it fit in with the surroundings and, you know, then I then I think it it could be a go. But, like I said, I'm not against building. I'd rather see something there than nothing there. Um, I also want to clarify something and it might just be a technicality because we're not an
adjacent property, but we didn't get notice of the building coming down. Doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter. I'm not against it coming down. I'm just saying I in the back of my head, I'm also very concerned because when the previous project was built next
to what was my in-laws when they were alive, they weren't required to put any type of fence up. So they didn't. So in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, well, what are they not really required to do
for this project that they won't do? Um, you know, because there's no fence up. I have residents from, and I know it's not his fault, but they come, they walk across my driveway. They're practically in my house walking down 516 because there's no barrier. He wasn't made to do
it, so I'm not faulting him for that. But my question is now when this goes up, and again, we don't know, is the county going to say, "Okay, well now we need a traffic light there." Well, now that traffic light is where my Christmas tree decorations are in the middle of my lawn or my second driveway, now I can't
get out because now it's a traffic light. Or now, are people going to cross at that now traffic light and go across my lawn? They come across my lawn as it is. And I don't mind because I know walking on 516 is dangerous. So, if people have to walk across my lawn, I'd
rather them do that than go out and have another accident in front of my house. But at the same time, I don't want them walking practically where my porch is. So, that's my only, you know, couple of little tidbits here that, you know, I just wanted to put on record and just
really put in your minds that I know a lot of times you ask residents what their house is going to look like. What's it going to do to the neighbors? And I hear things that go off with like developers or with commercial properties and not a lot is really said. What is it
going to do to neighbors? Three stories smashed on that corner. It's it's just a nightmare. It it needs to be pushed back. It needs to be scaled down and then it would work. But I am telling you, not as a traffic expert, from somebody that sits on a front porch and
calls 911 continuously, there are accidents on that corridor, making that left, coming out, trying to make a right. There's times that I want to go to Madawan that I literally make a right and go down 34 because I can't make a left out of my driveway. So, although
maybe a traffic light would help me make a left. That's all. Thank you, >> Spanelli. I I know that you and your family are long-term residents here in this community. I know you take pride in this community. >> I married in. He was the one that was really here. >> Well, you're stuck with him now. So,
>> yeah. At this point, he he's broken in. >> And I and uh and I uh I appreciate your commentary. I would just remind you this is a bifurcated application. Right now, all they're in front of this board for is a permission to
change. Well, the how would I say they're they're looking for a variance relief that they don't have to build commercial stores on the first floor by right they can put an apartment building but they cannot do it without a commercial entity in the and and
nobody says that it's going to wind up in three stories and that many >> well that was that was my question that was >> that's going to be seen as they go to site plan if they get approval >> correct but my wanted to let you know >> my point is if they're if you're allowing them to put the apartments on
the first floor, then >> that's why they're here. I >> I understand that. But what I'm saying is then there has to be consideration to if if you're allowing them to put apartments on the first floor, then there shouldn't be a third floor. But now you're giving them permission to put
apartments on the first floor. So then now the third floor becomes extra. It should be if we are allowing you to put apartments on the first floor, then there shouldn't be a third floor. That's what I'm that's the point I'm trying to
get to. >> This board hasn't acted on any >> anymore. I'm sure you're going to be here and let me get it right. >> Oh, I will 18th. >> 18th. I wrote it down. I even Facebookked it. >> We look forward to your appearance again.
>> Who else on this side? Come on up, sir. That's the one. >> I know you spoke at the last uh meeting, but I'm going to ask the board attorney to swear you in as well. >> Okay. You need my name and all that first. >> Raise your right hand. >> Do you swear or affirm, tell the truth, nothing but the truth to help you God?
>> Yes, sir. >> Please state your name and be very last for the record. >> Benjamin Spanelli Jr. SB I N E L Li 3964 Highway 516 Madawan, >> take it away. >> Okay. Uh, tonight I only got really one
question. My wife really hit on all the rest of the points that we wanted to bring out together. Uh, regarding the driveway access to 516 on the property. Looking at on the right hand side, is
that going to be a right hand exit only or is it a right and left exit on 516 >> as it's shown on the site plan full turn full? >> We plan to have there's a couple of answers to it. We plan to have our traffic experts testify at the next
hearing. I don't know if Laura can tell me whether it's full movement, >> but beyond all of that, the county is going to tell us what it is. We we don't know what it is until the county uh reviews a site plan application. They don't review use variance applications. >> Okay? Because the only reason why I'm
stating is it's impossible to make a lefthand turn out of that entrance as it's, you know, shown on that site plan right there. Because 516 at if you keep traveling east of that position, it dips
down into a ravine basically and it's completely blind as far as people trying to exit the property at that point. And then also for the oncoming westbound traffic, they would be basically plowing into cars as they're trying to get out
of that driveway because you absolutely cannot see from that point. So, if that's something that where the board would want to review that before, you know, permitting this to happen, uh, or not allowing a lefthand turn out of that particular driveway.
>> I know that the, uh, >> again, that's, you know, I understand, you know, the attorney says about the traffic person, but that, you know, that would have to be addressed. >> Mr. Mitskovich will testify probably at the next hearing. Okay. >> And as Mr. Clauser said uh the decision
will really be made by the county if there's an approval, not by not by the applicant and not by this board. >> Right. Right. I just wanted to, you know, to state that. Now, the last question I had is regarding the rightway. Um I know there's a lot of fine folks here for this church
application tonight, so I don't want to take up any more time. Um 40 feet is the half width from now is where is that from the center line of the road, ma'am? or is that where where you get that that that size from? So, in other words, the the building would actually be sitting
from the center of the road 40 and a half ft from the center of the road. Is that the way I'm >> It's more than that. >> Uh yeah. Well, that's what I'm asking. What What would be the actual setback from the center line of the highway? >> 53 or something, wasn't it? What was on the record? >> Yes. I'm sorry. I didn't bring the
>> Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just I believe it was clarification on that. Cool. >> There's a dimension on the plans. >> Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I guess I can't see it from here. So, that that's my question. >> Bring the plans with me. >> Do you have a plan, a copy plan or? >> No. The only reason why I'm asking is
because I had to get a variance back in 1995 and I sat before the board and we had to dedicate 55 ft from the center of the highway. Not not a um easement. We had to actually give it to the county say here you go. Here's a
free gift of 55 ft of our entire length of our property as a condition to get our variance which as you know if they wanted to widen the road and they didn't have it they would have had to pay me for that 55 ft. >> We'll be in the same position.
>> Yeah I know you guys will be in the same position. Exactly. So that's the reason why I'm asking is are they making you give the 55 ft like I had to. >> So that the widening that's required the right of ways on different roads are different. >> Okay.
>> Um so I don't know what road project was on but >> no I'm right across the street from you guys. So I'm directly I'm on 516. >> Council has a has the plan in front of him. He says >> looks so it'll be 50 feet to the building, but it'll be
43 feet to the curve. It looks like >> Yeah. So I'm I'm I had to give them 55 from the center line. So So how could you get get away with 53 feet? That's my >> county will do what the county wants to do. >> Oh. Oh yeah, I understand that. But I had to do it. That was the condition of
my variance. So >> it's the county jur county county jurisdiction. county will do what they want want to do. >> Okay. All right. Mr. All right. I'll see you. Hold on, Mr. Spin. Wait a minute. >> If I might, uh, the one thing that could come into play, I don't know when you
when you had to give up this land in the county. They could have in the meantime changed their >> rightway dedication requirements along this road. They might have changed, >> you know, at one time they might have been looking at a four-lane divided roadway and now they're looking at something. I understand the reason he
and and and as a chair said we were basically >> once this goes to the county to give that property to them >> they're going to decide what has to be given you know uh dedicated to them that'll be decision by the county when that when that application goes into them >> okay see you guys at the next meeting
>> Mr. Spanelli >> uh on this side Mr. Joitz. >> Yes, sir. >> Please raise your right hand. Do you swear, affirm, tell the truth, and nothing but the truth to help you God? >> Yes, I do, sir. >> Please state your name very last for the record.
>> Nina Jocknowitz, 203 West Greystone Road, Old Bridge, New Jersey. >> And would you just mind please spelling your last name for our court? >> Oh, I'm so sorry. J O C H N O W I TZ. Thank you,
>> Mr. Go ahead. So, I'm looking at these photographs and can can confirm with me that with this application, they want a driveway on Higgins Road. Is that correct? >> A driveway is proposed onto Higgins Road. >> Okay. There is no driveway at this time
onto Higgins Road for the property or there hasn't been, right? >> I'm assuming not. >> And they're proposing I'm guessing 60 something plus the disabled uh car parks. How many parking spots? >> 130.
>> Okay. So, 130 cars may possibly go. What I'm concerned about, and forgive me, correct me if I'm wrong, Miss Spinelli, Mr. Spinelli, because you guys, >> Jack, >> I'm sorry. Thank you. >> Um, it seems like a lot of people would
be exiting that road and causing may I'm going to use the word mayhem for a lack of a better word. I was wondering if although I hear that the traffic and safety is coming later. >> But I was just going to say to you, Mr. Scott, Mr. Mskovich will be here. >> But can I get this
>> December 18th? >> Okay. December 18th. I know December 4th is for the other application and December 18th is for this one. >> Okay. But I want to put it on the record now. My concern is that is the egress leaving, not going coming in. um
concerned about co going out that maybe a oneway would be under under consideration by this this committee when you of course get traffic and safety of course I'm sorry I didn't know that until just minutes ago right >> that's first the second question is I'm
concerned about the uh the amount of light pollution that may come in to the properties behind it and of course to the Spanellis and other neighbors in that community with the building being potentially upwards to three stories and I know that again
>> once again once again this is a bifurcated application there's been no site plan submitted that is going to be fully >> built out is that was that would that be >> I understand I I'm I'm hearing I apologize because I was here for the previous application okay
>> but I started to write down questions and so the other thing is this young lady over here although you're not as young as as as as as like my son, the the uh testim that the ground was impermeable, but later testimony came in that there
was gravel in the parking lot, that the property was covered with gravel, which means that we all we all know on this this board our town is pretty much, you know, a swamp. What I'm concerned about is is whether or not you would consider
bringing in either something to address the possibility of flooding the neighbors. I know again >> storm water management would also be done at site uh when there was a application for site plan. >> Can I ask you a question because I'm
confused. I mean I'm not obvious >> application all they're doing is asking for a use variance. If they don't get the use there's no there's no need for the >> That's exactly what I was going to ask you. Thank you. If >> there's no use, it's over. >> Okay. Well, then I think >> um you've you've unfortunately you've
covered every question. Thank you very much. You're >> welcome. >> Have a happy holidays again. >> Same to you. >> Who's over on this side now? Come on up, sir. >> Thank you all for your patience tonight. By the way, those in the audience, sir, board attorney, I'll swear you in.
>> Do you swear or affirm, tell the truth, and nothing but the truth to help you God? >> I do. >> Please state your name and bury your last for the record. >> Uh, Michael Anderson, A N D E R S O N 304 Pewtor Court. >> Um, so a couple questions, but the first thing I want to make was a statement was
I'm not arguing whether or not that house was historic or not, but I think the thing that people are really upset about is the timing of it. This project was first came to us several several months ago. the house was there and then this is a very controversial project as you can see and two weeks almost 3 weeks
before this is supposed to get heard that's when the house gets demolished so you want to talk about being a good neighbor and doing right by the community I think that's one of the things the neighborhood is not happy about this does not look like something that a good neighbor would do it kind of
looks like they're trying to spite that hey 3 weeks before this is when we're going to knock the house down so I think that's one of the things that people are upset that about. Um, so I just wanted to say that. Uh, did I hear right when you guys were talking about when they're doing the construction that they're
going to have to do the streets over, meaning Higgins and Route 516 are going to be redone or reconstructed. Is that what I was hearing? >> So part of part of one of the requests from your professional report was that the entire section of Higgins that
fronts on our property be repaved. That's something that the applicant has agreed to or will agree to. Um, the county improvements will be up to the county and what they make us do. There's sidewalks out there. I know there's plans that Miss Shapiro has worked on and designs and we've tried to uh
incorporate those and room for those uh in the future. I do not believe we would be uh doing any paving on 516. We' just be giving the county the room to do that. >> Regarding any type of construction with the streets of you guys obviously very familiar with happened on Control Road
between 516 and Spring Hill Road. there was that massive water project that was supposed to get done. It kept getting delayed and delayed and furthering things. I think that's another thing the community is really wondering if that there's going to be any type of construction. Um, we see these constructions always get delayed. Um, I
know you going to have a traffic person speak at the next meeting, but I don't think any of us are blind to see the traffic that builds up on 516. So, if you're talking about doing any type of construction, even if it's Higgins Road, um you're talking about some major blockages that are going to happen and
with the schools, the junior high and the high school within like 2 miles apart, um that sounds like a recipe for disaster and that's really going to back things up. And if you recall, the police station is right down the block. So, that could actually slow down some major emergency calls. Um question I have
regarding the storm water basin. Can I get a little more clarity on exactly what that's going to be? Is there going to be a house or a pump station or is it just going to be a ditch with uh sewage water going in? >> I think that they have to comply with whatever the state regulation is as far
as the uh the drainage that's prescribed by the state. They can't alter that. And I think this is a ma minor or major. >> I don't know. >> It's a major problem. >> I think it' be a major, right? >> Yes. >> So, what exactly does that mean? That means that we have to comply with all of the NJD stormwater management
regulations in 7 colon 8. Uh and uh it's also that's reiterated in old Bridg's ordinance. I'm sure that in word for word. So is that again does that mean there's going to be like a pump station there or is it just going to be just an
area where water builds up like >> all of that would if if if in fact they receive an approval uh for the use all that's going to have to come out at site plant. Uh that is very strict. Uh and I'm not under stating that am I not at
all. >> So it's not like they get a lot of choices on what to do. it's they better do it this way or they're not going to do it at all. >> So, that's highly regulated by the state and not by this board. >> And um another thing I wanted to mention
is obviously you see this type of project. You're talking about 130 parking spots. You're talking about 68 apartments. I know Nicole is not here, but I know one of her pet projects was Control Park and Control Farm. Are there still plans to go with the next phase, which is that major park that they're doing? Have you guys considered the
future that in another couple of years you're going to have this massive apartment complex right across the street from this beautiful park that you guys are hyping up and think it's the greatest thing. >> I I just think that, you know, this kind of defeats the purpose of building this beautiful great park where people can
walk to and get to if you're building ahead in extra traffic. So I I just think like people are kind of forgetting about that project as well. And I know that we have talked about other projects on 516 and they've always talked about the, you know, town district, how, oh,
it needs to be preserved. This is the way it's supposed to be since 1981. But when it came to knocking down a house, again, I'm not arguing if it was historic. But when it came down to knocking down a house, it was like they really didn't care about that. But when it comes to like a street light, there's
like a massive thing like, oh no, it needs to be protected because it's part of the town square. So, I just think it's very contradictory when you guys are just dismissing the house. Oh, it wasn't historical. May or may not be true. I'm not going to argue with what he was saying, but it just feels like
that went like with no problem. Like, ah, they can do what they want. It's their property, which is true, but again, I think it's just a slap in the face to the community. >> Okay. When you say you guys, that has nothing to do with this board. >> No, I meant like Goldbridgeidge in general. >> All right. >> Yep. Uh as far as planning outward
planning years ahead, I have you know how can you look back and say did they think about that? I I don't know. >> Okay. And then no question I know the traffic person is supposed to be speaking at the next meeting on December 18th. >> Frank Misovich, >> has there been a traffic plan done yet or are we waiting for that?
>> Again, that's the applicant's concerns and >> there have been traffic studies done and there have been reports submitted to municipality. Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. Can you reveal when those traffic studies were done? Well, that would be on ranks test. >> That's part of his presentation. >> Okay.
>> So, that's for the applicant to >> Well, I was asking him if he can answer it, but >> Well, he did. >> I didn't hear what he said. >> He said that the plan has been >> right. And I said, can you reveal what the dates were? >> I I don't personally know off the top of my head right now. >> Attorneys don't normally do that. The
the >> That's what you know, Frank will be able to tell you when he did his studies and the township has reviewed those studies. >> Okay. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you, sir. >> Just before just before we get there, I just have to make an announcement for something that I'm seeing in the public,
>> I want everybody in the public to understand that these are all volunteers and the board professionals have ethical obligations and making these obscene gestures that I am seeing. I'm going to ask you to stop. If you don't stop, I will call you out personally and we will address it in that course. But this is a
quasi judicial body. This is a public hearing. People are being sworn in. They are providing sworn testimony. So again, I'm gonna ask it to stop and I'm only going to ask it once. I do apologize for interrupting, Mr. Chairman, but I needed to put that on the record. >> Thank you, councelor. >> I know that there I know you have
certain time constraints. I know that there I wanted to get the public it's not that I get to do it or I have any control over it, but I certainly wanted to make time available on this application for the public to be heard tonight. We are returning. We do have another application on the agenda
tonight. So I don't I just bring that to your attention, Mr. Chair. >> We do have some time left on the clock. I'm going to entertain as many as I can during that period. >> Okay. >> All right. Thank you, counselor. Uh on this side of the room, >> anybody else come on up, ma'am.
>> Do you swear or tell the truth and nothing but the truth? I hope you got >> Yes. >> Please state your name. It's very last for the record. >> Teresa Marte. M A R T. I live at 25 Mark Drive Madawan. I am just
again like Miss Penelli said don't have any formal education about engineering and all the roads and studies and all that other stuff but I am looking at a structure a building
that was already put on Route 516 adjacent to the Spanelli land that has stores on the bottom. residences on the top. If you have looked at that property,
many of the businesses on the bottom level have been at different points remained empty. It is not a location that is advantageous for businesses to set up
there because of traffic flow problems. Also, if it is going to be an apartment, I do not think that putting apartments on a county road that is extremely busy
and unsafe because of the width, the traffic flow is irresponsible. It's irresponsible for the land owner to think that it's okay to put that many
people in a situation that is not safe. Also the the deed for the property lines I see that it exceeded into the road. But do
they not forfeit that property because it is now the road? They do not close the road for their own private use. So now the road becomes public domain. It is no longer theirs. So it should not be configured or used as any part of their
plans because their property now is less. >> I don't understand that real estate question and I don't know how to answer it. >> Okay. >> Trying to follow. >> I'm just saying the property lines they are saying are in the road.
>> We're going to give that property back to the township. Well, it doesn't matter because the township of already has assumed that property because the land owner never closed the road for their own private use to maintain ownership of
that property. >> I don't want to get into an academic discussion about adverse possession. >> Okay. I'm just throwing it out there. >> It's a it's it's a dedication that'll be made back to the town. Those lines will be corrected. >> Okay. So, you're going to push back the property lines and reconfigure this
property then according to really what is your property? >> Yes, ma'am. That's what's shown on that exhibit up there. >> No, that shows where the property lines were designated. That does not make that your property any longer.
>> You see the interior pink line that shows the new proposed property lines donating land back to the municipality. You're not donating it, sir. >> Very well. >> Does the attempt not own the property and the road?
>> I think it does not. >> Asked and answered. >> It's a use variance. It's bifurcated. They're not here for sight plan. >> Okay. Again, the safety issues of putting people on that first floor totally irresponsible. If
you go with the plan of where it has to have businesses on the bottom floor, again, that needs to be revisited because if you do look at the history of businesses and that site plan similar,
it really never vied out. The owner, from what I understand, has taken up threequarters of the storefront for a daycare. So I just don't think we have the people interested in this town or pulling in
from other towns to fill empty retail retail space retail space that we have abundantly available throughout the township. That's all. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else on this side? Last call.
M >> court attorney. Swear you in. >> Do you swear or affirm and tell the truth and nothing but the truth to help you God? >> Yes. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Chenane M. Carowana. C A R U A N A. >> Did you say N as in Nancy or M as in Mary?
>> N as in Nancy. >> Thank you. >> So I just want to thank all the previous speakers who have come up and um voiced their concerns about this project. Um I
there's not too much to say right now because if there's going to be another hearing, we will definitely come back for that. Um the rest of the neighbors in on Higgins Road could not come here for previous engagements, but they are definitely interested and concerned
about this project. So first things first, um we did receive a notice. Some of us received a notice, but in that notice, it it was exactly the same as the original notice. So any of these changes or proposed new variances
were not represented in the letter that we received. Second, nobody in the neighborhood received any notice about the demolition of the historical non-historical property like Mrs. Spinelli said, and like other neighbors
said, we're not discussing the historic or non-historic value of that property as I am the owner of a historic property on Higgins Road. I live in the Higgins house on Higgins Road and that you will
see is in your registry. Okay. So, there is a lot of concern. Why weren't we informed? Mr. Clauser says that we were informed about the demolition. We received no notice about that demolition. Sure, it's private property.
They can do what they want to that property. But it's very curious that they spent money renovating that property after they shut down the greenhouse. They rented it out as Airbnbs
for several months and then all of a sudden we see that their ground was uplifted. Maybe a water pipe broke or something and there were um construction going on. And then a week later we see
all the windows were boarded. And then one morning when I was going to work, I saw the big crane and I said to myself, "Watch what they're going to do." And sure enough, I didn't need a magic
crystal ball. I came back and the house was demolished. So, we would like to know, I think, as a good neighbor, like Mr. Anderson said, "What really was going on? And why would you choose
to demolish the house before demolishing all those other derelict buildings on that property, the green houses and everything else that obviously were not going to stay there
then." Okay. So, those are just comments and considerations about what's happening with this building. What Mrs. Martha just said is absolutely true. How can you have residential
property on a county road? Who is going to be living in that first floor apartment? Would you be living in there? Would you want your sons and daughters living in that property? I'm not even going to talk about the absolute
craziness of having an exit on Higgins Road. Higgins Road cannot handle the traffic we get from the soccer fields that were recently built. And now you're going to add property to Higgins Road.
And where are you going to widen Higgins Road? Are you going to claim eminent domain to the house that's right there in front of that property? How are you going to widen Higgins Road?
And will the county put a stoplight there because you can hardly get out of Higgins Road now and now you're going to add this property there. I understand it's your business. It's your property. You spent years running it as a
greenhouse. You want to make money. Everybody wants to make money, right? This is America. But can we not scale it down at least? Can we not reconsider some kind of new vision? Get your
architects on board and come up with something creative that's not going to ruin the footprint like another neighbor said. This is not Newark. Unless we want to make it into Newark. Okay.
Can we not do that? And still the owner will get his money and get his profit. And the neighbors that have lived there and that continue to live there will have a peaceful environment. And the
people who are going to come into that new situation will also have a peaceful environment to live in. I mean, why aren't these things being taken into consideration? And why is the township so anxious to be
so helpful to a a a business owner that wants to completely change the footprint of the township with a threestory building on the corner of a county road and a
small residential road. It's un It's just unbelievable. Unbelievable. So, we're here, like you said, Mr. Chairman, for the bifurcated ordinance. No, there absolutely should
not be businesses on the first floor, like Miss Marta said, and there should not be residences on the first floor because it's way too close to the county road. Come up with another plan. Sit down with your architects, your
engineers, and use your brains and come up with another plan. and then come back and propose something that really is going to benefit the community and benefit everybody. That's all I have to say. >> Thank you, Mrs. Corona.
>> All right, I have another application to deal with tonight and I think I've gotten to just about everybody that want to speak. You're the last one. Go ahead. Come on. I'm the last. >> Not a problem. All right. Just tilt that down a little, ma'am. Oops. There you go. How's that?
>> Take it away. >> When you're When you're ready, ma'am. >> You look look like you're familiar. >> Were you an entertainer? >> Were you a singer? >> Yes. >> Okay. Board attorney will swear you in. >> Do you swear or affirm? Tell the truth. Nothing but the truth to help you God. >> I do.
>> Please state your name and spare your last for the record. >> My name is Patricia Shook. S c H U C K. I live at 149 Higgins Road. You've had a lot of people say a lot of
things and they say it much better than I do. I think Mrs. Spanelli said it the best. And I would like Higgins Road to
continue to be a small road. And the traffic now is unbelievable. And we have to give our hearts and thoughts and minds to exactly what this
is going to do to our community. I've lived in Oldbridge since 1959 and I wish you would consider what my feelings are about this town. I belong to the Madison Town
society. I belong to the Cheesequake Ladies Auxiliary. I belong to the MidMadison Women's Club. I've been a 4 leader. I think I've done a lot and gained a lot
from this town. I appreciate everything it's given me. So, please consider how much this town will benefit or not benefit by putting this type of construction
in our area at this time. Thank you. >> Thank you, M. Chuck. We note your comments and we thank you for all the community service you provided to this township. All right. Now, I'm going to close the public portion for this evening. Uh we have a date already. Final comments,
counselor, >> I do just to point out a couple of things that you know the the lo the location of apartments. We can talk about first floor, third floor, that's fine. In this area was deemed appropriate by your council. So it
that's not something we decided. It's what our property is zoned for. The location of the building close to 516 was also determined by your council. We are supposed to be close to the roadway. That's the design standards. So I just want that to be clear. Those are the
laws. I understand there's feelings behind me, but those are are the rules and that's why they are here. And then lastly, I take note of some of the comments of the public of vacant commercial spaces. And I think that's a significant portion of the applicant's
argument. Uh, and it's been pointed out by the public that they don't need it more commercial here. Um, so I just wanted to point that out. We didn't invent the residences to be here. We didn't invent apartments to be here. We didn't invent their location. That was all done by your governing body. We're
following those rules, but for we're asking for relief regarding the first floor. And that's it. Mr. Mr. Chair, I would ask if you could make an announcement that were carried and see what we can start on the next one. >> I will. Thank you and M time for your uh testimony this evening, your appearance. This is matter 27ish 2023Z Vision
Oldbridge LLC 36 3963 County Road 516. This matter will be continued December 18th. No further notice. Please mark it down on your calendars. And as I've told people all night, check the township's website, Board of Adjustment, Zoning Board of Adjustment. You can find our
agenda prior to the meeting. Thank you all. I do have another uh those that want to leave now, it's fine. I do have another uh application uh to uh tend to tonight. Thank you, counselor. >> Yeah, let me just switch over my papers. >> Do you really
I would like to >> Well, she's got to go to work. Oh, shoot. Dolores is in the ladies room. >> Uh, I'm going to start anyway. We have one person in the lady's room. They'll pick up, but let me read this in and uh >> Yeah, thank you. >> Miss Gomez will appear back on the day.
>> Yeah. Uh, last page here, >> Mr. Chairman. Just for the record, Marty has left. >> Okay, >> we'll have a roll call taken. 33-2024Z Community Bible Fellowship Church. This is TCD uh R40 zones, block 14263,
lot 9 and 12 or I guess that's 9.12, I'm sorry. 442 Catrell Road is the physical address. It's for a house of worship major preliminary and final site plan with CND variance. Applicant proposes to demolish the existing structures and property, construct a house of worship.
Peter Clauser, Esquire, representing the applicant. Sir, >> uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll I'll be brief here this evening. I have a presentation for >> uh, I'm sorry. You know what I need to do? Could I have a quick quick roll call, please? >> We did go off the record. >> Yes, >> Mr. Andrews.
>> Miss Andrews. >> Yes. >> Miss Chevier. >> Yes. >> Mr. Rizzo >> here. >> Mr. Scogno >> here. >> Here. >> Miss Tessie is now left the deis. Miss Gomez >> here. >> And Chairman Sullivan >> here. >> Thank you. I'm I'm sorry to interrupt. >> Thank you again. I do have a new
transcript. So for the record, Peter Clauser with the firm Halburn paper on behalf of um your applicant, the Community Bible Fellowship Church. I've had the pleasure of working with the church for many many years in trying to design uh this property and I actually believe that I secured approvals for a prior church uh on this property that
never came to fruition. I'm very confident this one is going to knowing the motivated people that I've been working with. Um so we have the proposed church as you had uh described, Mr. Chair. Um the significant variance relief is for um a large structure on
top of the church to um house a cross and we'll talk more about that as we get into the architecture. Um but otherwise churches are permitted in the zone. Um I have Richard Tisdale is a representative of the church. He's an elder. Um Bob Key is our engineer. Gary Seagull is the
architect. Frank Mskovich is the traffic and Allison is the planner. We're just going to I just want to introduce you to Richard tonight. ask the board to take jurisdiction of the application. Te have you have him have Richard tell you a little bit about the church when they have their services. Um just get it started and then I'll get a transcript
to the board and and you'll tell me when I'm coming back. >> We would love that. Sir, are we taking jurisdiction? >> Certainly, Mr. Chairman can accept jurisdiction of the application. >> You swear affirm tell nothing but the truth to help you be God. >> I do. >> Please state your name. It's very last for the record. >> Richard Tisdale
T I S D A L E. council. >> Thank you. Richard, just share with the the the the board your role in the church and your role in this project. >> Yes, I'm an elder uh of Community Bible Fellowship. Um um my role is finance and
operations um as well as um uh and the role of elder um from a ministry perspective. Um um that's what I do. Um today I'm responsible for this project, the
delivery thereof. Um and I've been um uh and take the lead on that and representation for the church itself. >> And you've been my point man as we go through this project uh giving me my direction as I am to present this application. >> I this where is the church operating
right now? >> We're right now on 268 Cliffwood Avenue. is in a light industrial 10,000 square ft of building. We've been there for almost 30 years >> and it is the strong desire of this
congregation to have a place to call their own. >> Absolutely. >> So, let's just tell the the board a little bit about how the church operates. Tell us when your services are, how many members you have, things of that nature. I'll help you fill in the blanks. >> Okay. Yes. Uh we currently today uh have
Sunday morning services is from 9:30 to 12. Um we have Sunday school uh as well. Um and um so that's the that's once you know every Sunday. Um and that is the time frame.
>> And the Sunday school coincides with mass. >> It does. It well is Sunday school is is a is a prior to uh the actual church service. So it starts from 9:30 to 10 and then well 9:30 to 10:30 and then church service from 10:30 to 12.
>> Thank you. How many members do we have in the church right now? >> We have 80 active uh members uh that attend the church. >> And then you designed this church with your professionals, your architect, your engineer with the hopes of growing the
church progressively over many years. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. How many people go to mass? You have 80 members. What's a percentage of people that usually show up? >> On average about 60 to 65 show up on a per Sunday. >> We have a few other activities. Tell us
what goes on Thursday night at a prayer service. Um currently press service is a um it's being virtual since co but um it was initially in house on Thursday night um an hour of service and that would um
but at this current time it is virtual and we hope to grow that as well and physically bring it back in house to be a part as a part of the um so our ultimately our plan is to maybe come
back into the cir come back and and have the um the stolen in the building. >> That would be nice. Can get back face to face. >> Um the church will be available for sacraments for your members and members only. Correct. >> Yes. Um we you know we will offer we do
offer service to uh members like weddings and funerals. um um that um so that's what that's the current um policy and understanding uh that we have for
the church. Um uh it is based on um yeah it is based it's based on that's basically what we do. We have receptions as well um uh occasionally with these types of um uh services, wedding and
funeral. Um but that would coincide with with those particular um types of services. >> So there is a prayer hall and then there's a fellowship hall. >> That is correct. >> And we'll learn more about that as we go through the architectural plans and things of that nature. But they don't operate at the same time.
>> No, they do not. Okay. the participants from the service would be also the participant for the reception. >> And you have an active membership. So if you have a wedding or a funeral or something like that, you have volunteers that help with on-site direction and parking and and things of that nature.
>> Yes, we do have staff that currently um is in that capacity. >> And you have a Bible school during the uh summer. There's a week-long Bible school. >> That is correct. Um it is in the afternoon for three hours on um week u
for a week u where the um community uh and membership comes for vacation bible school >> and you have this sounds like an interesting event that you might have to invite me to. There's an gospel concert on New Year's Eve that you anticipate you would have at the church. Yeah, we
do annually have a a gospel concert and we do occasionally have um um services on New Year's Eve. >> Okay. I have that was the introduction I wanted to bring to the board. I always struggle with whether I get an engineer up first or I get an operations up first, but I enjoyed hearing from
Richard how well the church functioned and how close-knit they are, and I thought he'd be the best way to start by presenting this application. >> Actually, it was perfect. >> Yeah, it was. But Mr. Tisdale, can you just please give me the summer school hours again? >> It is >> and the days
>> it is nor it's normally five days, but it is five days away. Five week days and it's normally from um we start around 4 uh between six and seven four, excuse me, let me get it correct. Um
it's it's um >> so 6 a.m. >> Now we normally it's I'm sorry. I just want to make sure I'm accurate. You're a little more nervous than I expected. >> Yeah, I am. It's like >> it's so good when we were preparing. >> Yeah. Uh it occurs that we start at 4:00 and it goes to 7 on a night in the in
the afternoon. >> In the afternoon. Yes. It's not during the day. It's not a full >> My notes are It's only one week during the summer. Correct. >> That is correct. >> And it's about 50 people in total, kids and and staff >> on on average. Yes. >> Yeah. >> How about the you mentioned the Thursday night prayer service? How many hours is
that? >> It's normally an hour. >> It's an hour. And you're going to try and bring that back. Right now you're doing it virtually. >> We would love to have it back to a face to face. >> Uh great representation of the church and what goes on. >> I thought so too. >> Thank you.
>> Um so I have no further questions for Richard. Um I know it's late. Uh he's you know if anybody else has any other questions, he's going to be here every night that we do this. So, um, >> I I I thought as much and and I appreciate I know that you have several witnesses you're going to put on uh to prosecute the case and uh we just don't
have time to start one tonight. So, I think that was a a good idea. I'm glad that the elder is going to be here. Uh we can reference probably some things that you may not know and me we we want to know or some of the congregants. >> I'm sorry. I I'm just going to ask another question because I'm trying to
get as much in. So as of right now, how many funerals and weddings? >> Well, it's a small membership. We >> Right. I mean like >> maybe two, three and two to three maybe a year. >> Okay. Yeah. See, this is just good for
me to have there. Thank you. That's a good question. >> Anybody else have any questions for the elder? >> No. >> No. And the professionals? No. Thank you again, sir, for appearing and and I want to thank everybody here tonight that stuck around. And I know it it gets a little boring and it's lengthy at times.
Uh but we do uh we do appreciate you coming. We'll we'll appreciate listening to your comments too when we get to public portion. Uh because I opened this I think I have to open a public portion. Correct. But I probably don't think anybody's going to but I will have to open a public portion. See >> you remember the church. Don't get up.
Correct. >> So this is uh this is the this is 33 20204Z. It's the Community Bible Fellowship Church uh for a house of worship 442 Control Road. We did open this uh matter and I have a responsibility by law in order to open a
public portion. So, if there's anyone who wants to comment, I'm going to have to limit it because we're reaching the pumpkin hour of 10:30, which we all have to get out of here because they turn the lights off on us. Anyone want to say anything at this point? You can reserve it. You can talk
tonight. I see none. We invite We invite you all back. We'll invite you all back for our next scheduled meeting. And when is that going to be? >> Yes, Mr. Join. I already closed it. >> All I was gonna say is that the lady sitting next to me doesn't want to speak
up from Florida. >> Well, thank you very much. >> Well, I was that's that's true dedication. I'm happy to hear this. I wanted this because obviously it's know I get that. But it's that important to
her that she flew up for this meeting >> and we truly appreciate that as well as well as all the others. I I am on a deadline and I appreciate that. Ma'am, please come back. I'm sure I'm sure you will. >> All right. >> December 18th.
>> 18 again. December 18th. All right. Uh for those here in the courtroom and those that may be watching, uh December 18th will be the new uh date for this uh once again 33-2024Z Community Bible Church. This matter will be continued. December 18th, no further
notice. Thank you, Mr. Clauser. >> Thank you. >> And thank you, Mr. Tisdale. >> Thank you, guys. >> Thank you to the courtgrapher, too. You went right through. >> Her fingers are fine. She won't be able to stand up, though. Uh someone uh I don't think uh we have
any other matters to come before the board this evening. Mr. Swan, anything >> before I call for an adjournment. Anything you uh have for the board? No. Counselor, thank you again for being here. We're sorry for your loss from the firm. We look forward to your counsel. Someone move for an adjournment, please
shave. I'll move it. All >> in favor? Any opposed? We stand ajourned. All right, I appreciate you taking those hands. [Music]