All right, we're a little late, but I'd like to start the meeting. Everyone, please rise. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for all.
Please be seated. Welcome everyone. Tatchup of zoning board of adjustment meeting December 4, 2025. Adequate notice of this meeting of the Oldbridge Township zoning board of adjustment has been provided in accordance with the open public meetings act at least 48 hours prior to the
commencement of this meeting by prominently posting in the municipal complex an announcement giving the time to date the location the agenda this meeting also by mailing such announcement to the home news and tribune filing a copy of such announcement with the municipal clerk and posting the agenda on the municipal
website. >> Mr. Pelli, could we have a roll call, please? Certainly. Mrs. Andrews absent. Mr. Isizo >> here. >> Mr. Scogno >> present. >> Miss Penelli >> here. >> Miss Testie
absent. Mr. Singh >> absent. Miss Gomez >> here. >> Chairman Sullivan >> here. >> Missant >> here. >> Mr. Varga >> here. >> Mr. McCarthy >> here. >> Thank you.
This meeting is being televised on local cable channel here, TV 15. Uh, simultaneously, it's also be being shown on YouTube live. If you ever want to refer back to the meeting, you can probably find it on YouTube live. Uh, I would ask everyone in the courtroom, uh,
please, I know there's a lot of people here tonight. You have a cell phone, please silence it. We can't have the noise interfere with the microphones for the testimony. So, if you would please silence them. We've thankfully we've gotten the fire alarm on the door silenced uh temporarily, I hope. I mean,
uh permanently, I hope. Uh we'll see. Uh and there's a lot of people here tonight. I'm assuming that people are going to want to have a comment about something. I don't know what, but I'm going to find out later on. There's going to be a microphone that's going to be placed uh behind the railing here. So
when you do come to testify before the board and what by the way when your comments will be under oath because you are actually adding to the testimony. So this is a quasi judicial board and the attorney would advise you uh and he will swear you in prior to any comments that
you make. But getting back to the microphone, please speak directly. These are directional mics. Please speak directly into it. You don't have to be on top of it, but you have to speak directly into it. Okay? So that's what I would ask you to follow as as we move on with the meeting. I will tell you that
if you're here in Prime Space Capital, that was the first one on the agenda. That's 03 20 uh 25Z Prime Space Capital. The physical locations 12 Pine Street here in Oldbridge for a self- storage facility. That application has been adjourned. That will not be heard this
evening. The public uh this will be placed back on the agenda January 8th. There will be further notice, but if you're here on that matter, it's not going to be heard tonight. There's no reason for you to stay unless you just want to keep us company. Uh no comments on that one. Uh we will continue with
the agenda as it is written if you happen to have a copy. We have a few housekeeping issues to take care of next and then we'll get to our applications. Board members, uh we only have five this evening for the attorneys that might be here. uh if that has any bearing on your
decisions. We have minutes board of November 20, 2025 meeting. Hopefully everyone has had a chance to review them. Absent any comments? I'd ask someone to move them for adoption. >> Move it. Scogno. >> Is there a second?
>> Oo. Roll call, please. >> Mr. Iso, >> yes. >> Mr. Scogno. >> Yes. >> Miss Spinelli? >> Yes. >> Miss Gomez? >> Yes. >> Chairman Sullivan? >> Yes. Uh seated to my right and your left is the board attorney. It's uh Pat
Varga. I'm going to call on him next to do some work, but that's who the gentleman to my right and your left is. Please, this is being this is also being picked up by a stenographer for the application. So, uh it's important that you speak coherently so that then the
stenographer can record it. Okay. Thank you. Uh Mr. Vargas 63-2024Z 110 1103 Route 35 LLC that was on an appeal sir. >> Thank you Mr. Chairman members of the board. This is a resolution overturning the zoning officer denial for property
known and designated as block 24 lot 11 aka 1103 highway 35 and directing the issuance of a continuing certificate of occupancy for the continuous operation of a gentleman's club. >> Board members you heard the resolution. Someone want to move for adoption. Please
>> move second. >> Was it Who's the second? >> Who's Spanelli? >> Roll call, please. >> Mr. Iso, >> yes. >> Mr. Scognit, >> yes. >> Miss Spanelli, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> Chairman Sullivan, >> yes. 41-2024Z.
Zahir Hussein, CND variance counselor. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. This is a resolution granting an application for bulk variance and density variance approval for property known and designated as block 24204 lot 36 aka 12 Yosomite court density variance of.198 where 70 17% is
permitted and landscape ratio variance of 81% where 85% is required for a two-story addition and proposed deck over an existing patio. >> Thank you sir. Word members someone move for adoption please. >> I move it. >> Second Skagno >> moved and second. Do you have that Mr.
Pelli? Yes, I do. >> Roll call, please. >> Mr. Iso, >> yes. >> Mr. Scogno, >> yes. >> Miss Spanelli, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> Chairman Sullivan, >> yes. >> 39-2025Z. Charles Hagerty and Brooke Weber. See variance. Councelor. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the
board. This is a resolution granting an application for both variance approval for property known and designated as block 13003 lot 11 aka 472 Tytown Road for the construction of a two-story addition the installation of a new 24T by 35 ft and 12t high detached garage
with no uh with electric but no plumbing as well as a 6' high PVC fence with the following variances 850T for building size where 600 square f feet is permitted sideyard setback of 13 ft where 20 ft is required and building height of 20 ft where 15 ft is permitted
Thank you. Someone move that for adoption. Please >> move it. Scogno for a second. >> Gomez. >> Roll call, please. >> Mr. Iso, >> yes. >> Mr. Scogn, >> yes. >> Miss Spanelli, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> Chairman Sullivan.
>> Yes. And finally, councelor 41-2025Z. Nancy Lo. C. Variance. Sir. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Members of the board, this is a resolution granting an application for bulk variance approval for property known and designated as block 17011, lot 4, aka 16 Schindler Drive. The purpose of the application is
to replace an existing deck and construct a sun room on the footprint of the deck. The following variance was requested. 29.39 ft is proposed for a rear yard setback where 45 ft is required. >> Board members, >> move it. Scaggno. >> Second. Gomez.
>> Roll call, please. >> Mr. O. Yes, >> Mr. Scaggno. >> Yes, >> Miss Spinelli. >> Yes, >> Miss Gomez. >> Yes, >> Chairman Sullivan. >> Yes. >> We come to the squaring into the professionals. As you looking at the uh deis to my left is Miss Venus Sant who
is the professional planner and Ryan uh McCarthy who's professional engineer. You'll be sworn in. >> You swear affirm tell truth nothing but the truth to help you God. >> Thank you. Please state your name for the record. Okay, we move on to uh applications. I've already mentioned that prime space is not on the agenda. We move to
47-2024Z. It's Bergen Concepts LLC. This is EDO1 economic development zone seeking major preliminary and final site plan with the Dvarian. Uh applicant proposes to erect a LED billboard on property. Uh Jason
Tvel Esquire representing. Sir, you need a minute to let your people get set up. For the record, I'm going to say that it's 10 minutes to 8. Uh we're going to limit because of the time 45 minutes per application and I have three. So, I
would appreciate if uh you would cooperate with the time, sir. >> Hold it. It's got to be green when it turns green. >> There you go. >> There we go. Okay. All right. Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. Jason Tuvel, attorney for the
applicant, Bergen Concepts LLC. This is an application for block uh 13,000 lot 9 um 12. at the site currently is an ex existing gas station with um with Mini Mart located on Route 9 um heading northbound. Um the goal here is to
construct or erect a a billboard that is digital at the property. Um the application as a result of that needs variance relief pursuant to D1 of the municipal land use law for use variance as the billboard is not permitted uh within the zone. Um, in addition to
that, the application also needs a D variance for having two principal uses on one lot where you have the gas station and Mini Mart and that you would have the um the billboard as as proposed. Um, with me this evening, I have four witnesses that I plan on calling. I doubt based on the time
constraints that we have and the fact that there's only five board members as well that we'll get to um all four. But what I plan on doing is having our applicant testify first. The applicant will just go through the operations of the billboard. It's al we'll stick very
narrowly to how how the messages change, what type of content goes up there, um and things of that nature. Okay. Then I'm going to have a civil traffic engineer, one witness that will be qualified as both a civil and traffic engineer. Um thei that testimony will
basically go on site circulation, where the billboard is being placed on the site, which is fairly minimal. And then the remainder of the testimony will be uh will be traffic related visibility, sight distances, things of that nature that the board can consider. The third witness that I plan on calling if we if
we get to that would be a lighting expert just to explain the lighting of the billboard, which is I know something in these types of cases that the board and the public is um is typically interested in. And then we would get to our final witness um which is our professional uh planner. Um so that's
the lineup. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to spend too much time on an opening. I see, you know, you have a lot of people here. Um, I provide my affidavit of notice and service to the board, so that should be in good order. So, unless you have any other questions for me, I'd be happy to call my first witness.
>> Is recognized, right? >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, the first witness I'd like to call is Marty Judge. Mr. >> Yes. Stand right here. >> Slide the chair over and the microphone. Do you [snorts] have to when it turns green? It's good.
>> All right, sir. Please just raise your right hand. >> You swear, affirm, tell the truth, nothing but the truth. I hope you got it. >> I do. >> Please state your name, spell your last for the record. [clears throat] >> Martin Martin Judge Judge Ge. I'm a member with Bergen Concepts. >> Back to you, counselor.
>> Okay. Uh, just just remember that in terms of the the site plan and the visuals, I I have the other experts for that. This will just be about operational characteristics of of the billboard. So, Marty, just can you just describe your relationship with the application? You're a principal in uh
Bergen Concepts, the applicant. >> I am. >> Okay. And how long have you been I'll call it in the billboard industry. How long have you been dealing with billboards? >> Uh since 1988, about uh 37 years. >> Okay. And your experience with
billboards relates to the construction and development of the billboards? >> Construction, development, sales, marketing. >> Okay. And you're fully familiar with how they how they operate as well, correct? >> I am. >> Okay. And you operate the billboards on behalf of your entity as well? >> We do.
>> Okay. So, if we could just discuss, I guess first would be um how do the ads change? How often do they do they change? Um there's ordinance provisions on that. Can you just explain how that works? >> Yeah. Um in the last 10, 15 years, digital billboards would be the uh
billboards that people would develop. Um, they allow us the ability to change ads without people going on the billboards. Normally, most billboards in the country get eight 8-second spots per 64 seconds. Um, I am aware that there's
a a regulation in the town for 30 second spots, which we're okay with. Um, so we predominantly sell the billboard space to local and regional customers, you know, banks,
um, shopping centers, retail, was ever in the area. >> So that that was in your board planner review letter dated December 1st, 2025, asking for testimony regarding how often the messages would intend to change. As Mr. judge said typically it's 8 seconds, but we would if the board were to
approve the application, we would comply with the 30 second requirement set forth um in in the ordinance. Marty, could you explain how the content of the billboard is vetted and how how it ultimately gets on to the billboard itself?
>> Yeah. Uh most of the people that advertise on this billboard advertise on other billboards in the Jersey area. So, you know, they come to us when they're looking to target a certain area. They have a campaign. It's usually hooked up with cable and other formats of media.
Um, we would go to contracts, they email us artwork, we'd upload it to the billboard, it would be up for the duration of the campaign and then come down. >> All right. And it's screened to obviously confirm that all the material and content is appropriate.
>> Yeah, I we really vet um copy and content um internally. We reserve the right to approve or disapprove copy and we have prohibitions um with our you know internally with our company and also we have prohibitions a lot of times with the landlord.
>> Okay. And the content or the the billboard itself is controlled remotely by your company. Can you just explain how that works? >> Yeah, it's uh fairly simple. It's it would be similar to I hate to say it, but like a dating app or something where
you'd upload a picture of something and press play and then you know the content plays on the billboard. It's formatted for that size of the billboard. >> Okay. Can you also explain how the billboard is used for um emergency alerts, for um nonforprofits, for
community type of of messaging and things of that nature? >> Yeah. Um it's almost unheard of that the billboards are sold out. Um so that that in you know in the old days obviously you'd have only have two sides to a billboard. Now with the additional space
and the fact that you can change it um there's always going to be open space and with that open space we always offer it back to the town the community. Um usually there's someone at the town we work with. We've done that in many places and they might reach out to us
and say there's a race for the cure or there's a benefit for someone or we have a recycling program and we just donate the space to the community. As long as it's on a nonprofit basis, you know, we we give a lot of space back. >> Okay. And I know we're going to have a lighting expert testify, but just to
kind of preview that, um the billboards can be dim, the lighting can can be adjusted. Can you just explain that? >> Yeah. Um, it's counterintuitive, but these billboards give off a lot less light than a traditional billboard. Um,
due to the fact that they're digital um, and I'll [snorts] let the lighting expert explain that, but um, you know, the older billboards would have lights that would hit them and and there was light bleed on these. They they actually burn
they burn at different uh times of the day and they work with the sun. So, as things get lighter and or darker, they adjust. >> Okay. And in terms of LED, they're more energy efficient. Correct. >> Like a 90% difference in in our energy
bills. >> Okay. And then this was also part of the ordinance, but I just wanted to make sure this was clear as well. None of the messages would blink, flash, scroll, or anything along those that nature. >> No. NJ dot allows us to, you know, they
have standards that allow us to use it's almost they kind of call it static digital. So if you saw a bill, if you were ever at a car light and you saw a billboard and it changed from a plumber to a bank, it's almost instantaneous. You can't have anything in motion. You can't have rolling. It's not going to
like Time Square would be that this we can't do that and we can't do it with NJ dot regs, let alone anywhere else. >> Okay. And then can you just speak about maintenance of the billboards? Do they need maintenance very often? How does that typically work? >> Yeah, the billboards I mean in in in a
new case like this, the after the construction is complete, there's almost very little maintenance. um from time to time, maybe once or twice a year, you might have one guy come out in a bucket truck and change a sensor or module, but
there's no more guys up there changing the ads like you would see in the old days. >> And then in terms of um outside agency approvals, specifically the New Jersey Department of Transportation, you've received this the permit that that is required for this billboard from the DOT. Correct. >> We have.
>> Okay. All right. That's all I have for Mr. Judge. I wanted just to go over some of the again operational aspects of this, but we'll get into more of the site plan uh later. >> Thank you, Mr. Dell. >> Mr. McCarthy, >> I don't have any comments. Thank you,
>> Mr. >> So, I think I missed this one. Um, with the timing, will it be 24 hours or will it be limited to 11 p.m.? >> Oh, that's I'm right. I did miss that was in your memo as well, Marty. Can you speak to that as well? Yeah. Um, normally they are 24 hours,
but we we're aware that there's a on some of the other signs that you've put up in the town, it's 11 o'clock. We're agreeable to that. >> So, should the board act favorably, that would be one of the conditions of approval. >> Yeah, we would comply with the ordinance provision that you cited in your memo and we would comply with that timing
limitation in addition to the uh third 30 second um between messages. >> Okay. So I believe the only two two items that remain are the height and the um distance from another billboard. I'll
hold off uh for questions >> through the other witnesses. I was going to address those items. Yes. >> I don't have any further questions. >> Thank you. Board members on my left. >> Nothing Mr. Chairman. >> Go ahead, Mr. >> Okay. Our next witness is our civil
>> Thank you, by the way, Mr. Judge. Traffic engineer Matthew. >> Good night, folks. >> From Stonefield Engineering and Design. >> All right, sir. Do you swear or affirm and tell truth? Nothing but the truth. I hope you got God. >> Yes, I do. >> Please state your names by your last for the record. >> My name is Matthew Secular. That's SEC
Kle. I'm with Stonefield Engineering Design. Address is 92 Park Avenue in Rutherford, New Jersey. >> Back to you, counselor. >> Thank you. All right, Matt. Can you just give the board the benefit of your qualifications as a civil and traffic engineer in the state of New Jersey? educational background, license, whether
it's in good standing, and experience testifying before similar boards. >> Yes, I have a bachelor of science in civil engineering from Union College in Skenct, New York. Have a masters in city regional planning from Ruckers University. Licensed professional engineer in the state and recognized as a professional traffic operations engineer by the Institute of
Transportation Engineers. Been practicing for over 15 years, been accepted for over 150 boards in the state. >> Thank you very much. And we're going to accept your credentials. And I just want to tell everybody in the audience this is done one for the record and two for your information purposes. You're
listening to a professional engineer. So the man who's was doing the talking is the attorney. Now the professional engineer is going to speak as to this project. >> Okay. Great. Thank you. All right. So Matt, why don't we just get the board oriented and the public to existing conditions and then we could talk about where we're placing the billboard on the
site. >> Absolutely. Um I don't know who's controlling the Okay. Uh, can you open up the uh start with the bottom one? >> You can see that far. That's crazy. >> I just could say I can see there's a really long name and I think that's the uh
>> pretty good. Okay. [laughter] >> So, um, what's before you uh is the So, dimming the lights maybe. >> There we go. >> There we go. >> Thank you. And also, you know, it might as well open up the third one of that
list and the first one. Do all of them just so you have them ready. [laughter] >> Okay, we'll go back to that first tab you have open. Yep. >> All right. So Matt, just identify what plan this is for the record, just so the board knows. >> Absolutely. This was the submitted site plan package, the preliminary final
major site plan package uh that was previously submitted and uh prepared by Dresnar Robin. Um this is the first sheet of it and I think if you were to be able to see what's uh in the top left corner, uh that's an aerial image. I do have some other aerial images that I'll
be sharing with the board, but just to orientate you, this is at the northeast corner of the intersection of Spring Valley Road and Route 9. This is the Luke Oil site, so anyone's familiar, it's just north of the Route 9, Route 18 interchange. Um, what we are proposing
here, if you go to the second sheet, and for the record, this is um block uh 13,000, lot 9.12. Uh what you could see here is now we've moved the site plan sheet so north is to the left. So Route 9 would run along the
bottom of the page. Spring Valley is along the right hand side of the page. Um essentially we are proposing the billboard to be located at the northwest corner of the site. Essentially in the similar location to where the existing Luke Oil freestanding sign is today. It the uh sign itself is located outside of
all of the drive aisles. So the pole that will be supporting the uh billboard sign is in the grass area or in the landscape area does not have any impact to the site circulation in terms of vehicular flow in and out of the site whether someone's going to the uh gas or
the little mini mart in the site. Uh so it's completely free and clear of of that area. In terms of the um billboard location, um the curb on Route 9 sits about 45 ft from the property line. So, there's basically an area that the DOT owns
that's 45 ft of grass between the curb and where our property starts. And where our property starts is essentially where the uh closest edge of the actual billboard screen will be. The billboard would be supported by a pole, which you could kind of see in the middle of that
uh image. Uh the pole itself is located 17.1 ft from the property line, but again that uh property line sits um significantly far back from the um uh from the actual curb. So um there's you
know over uh 75 ft between where the driving any drivers on Route 9 and the curb uh if they would you know reach the curb to where they would actually uh come and impact or potentially impacting the pole itself. Um addition the sign itself uh is proposed to be 20 feet tall
by 50 feet long. Uh it is at a height the top of the sign is at 65 ft and obviously it being 20 feet tall the bottom of the sign is 45 ft above grade. Um as you heard in terms of the uh um discussion earlier um you'll hear from
our planner regarding the D1 variances that we're seeking related to this application. uh one with these two uses on the property as well as obviously billboard not being a permitted use in the zone. Uh but again essentially from a site plan perspective in the general area of the existing freestanding sign
we'll be proposing the billboard sign that you see here. Terms of what the billboard sign looks like. If we go to the next uh let's go to the third tab actually. >> Oh let's try second. >> No we'll go to the second tab. Sorry about that. Yes.
>> Just identify what that is for the record. This is a photograph uh or a set of four photographs uh of a similar billboard electronic digital billboard uh in Anglewood, New Jersey. This was paired by Stonefield
Engineering Design. The date prepared is looks like 124 2025, but my eyesight is not great. >> Mr. Var, do you want to mark this? The board does not have this. Did you want to mark >> mark it as exhibit A1? >> Okay. And then Matt, the reason that we used this as an example, we just didn't
pick Anglewood out of thin air is because this same applicant developed this billboard. Correct. >> Correct. So in terms of the technology, you know, the what they'd be able to provide at at this site, Nolbridge, uh this would be, you know, what uh the applicant would be providing uh has provided in the Anglewood site. So in terms of, you know, the image, the
clearness, the crispness. Um, and again, you'll hear later on from the lighting engineer in terms of, you know, uh, how the lighting is displayed and and how far it shines and where it does not shine. Uh, but again, we wanted to give the board a general idea of what the, uh, billboard would look like, uh, when
it's if it becomes approved and active at this site. >> Uh, next, I'll discuss a little bit about the traffic engineering as it relates to the billboard image. >> Before you do that, can you go back to just the first exhibit we did? I just want to hit some of the planners comments in her letter. >> Certainly.
>> So, there was a comment regarding the I guess the interplay between the billboard and the canopy. Can you just speak to that that was noted in the letter? >> Yes, there's uh as you can see from this image, there's no overlap between the canopy uh and the um the billboard. The canopy is kind of the light gray
rectangle located on the right hand side of the site. Uh and the billboard is the darker gray um uh image. And you could also see with we've actually drawn you can see the setback lines that are um from the uh southerntherly property line to the billboard itself also similarly
reflects like the u visual lines that a driver would see. So the canopy itself does not impact the view of the billboard. Our billboard would sit higher than the canopy and also does not conflict on a horizontal uh perspective either. >> Okay. And then similar similar items um
requested testimony by the planner was the interplay between the existing sign for the gas station and the proposed billboard. This sign would be higher than the existing uh sign that's on at the site today. Uh the existing sign I believe is 27.91 ft above grade. Uh this
one would be above that. So there'd be no conflict with blocking any images from one side to the other. >> Okay. And then the the last one that I just wanted to make sure we got on the record was um the distance between the post the billboard post and the um nearest access drive and whether there's
any concern you have there. >> Uh no I do not have any concern and again the post that we are proposing is in a similar location to the existing freestanding sign uh for the Luke Oil business uh which is clearly outside of the existing drive aisles uh that Luke Oil business has utilized over the last
you know probably decades of time. Uh so again there's no conflict between where we are putting our our pole that would be supporting the billboard uh and any the driver maneuvers. >> All right. So just on the site testimony itself it's it's your professional opinion that the placement of the pole
on site does in no way inhibits or negatively impacts site circulation or any of the existing site conditions. >> Correct. From a site circulation perspective there is no impact. I would note obviously you'll hear from our planner regarding some of the setbacks as it relates to this sign, but I want
to remind the board that the setback as it relates to um Route 9 um the property line sits uh 45 ft back from the curb. So it's not like this sign or the sign edge is basically going to be close to overhanging the traveling public on
Route 9 or 45T back of the curb while the sign does uh basically uh reach uh nearly the property line. >> Okay. Why don't we now go to the the traffic part of your testimony? >> So, from a traffic perspective, um there's been significant research and
and um publications on the idea or effects of digital billboards. Um in 2009, there was a publication uh that was uh prepared by the FHWA, which is the Federal Highway Administration. It was titled the possible effects of
commercial electronic variable message signs on driver attention and distraction. And then they subsequently three years later published a uh document called driver visual behavior in the presence of commercial electronic variable message signs. Uh both of those
again were federal um uh reports that studied uh things like accident rates, distraction rates of billboard and other similar uh items. uh in those reports and you did hear earlier from the uh the applicant um they provided guidance to
what um each individual state's DOT could establish in terms of regulations and provided some like basically best practices for uh states to regulate electronic billboards. Some of the things that they found is that things like moving images, scrolling words, uh
you know, constantly changing the message is very distracting to drivers, which is why the DOT, as you heard from the applicant, prohibits those type of maneuvers, uh those type those type of um u visuals. Um so that is why in the state of New Jersey, you cannot have an
uh a message change any sooner than 8 seconds. And again, you can't have any scrolling images. I know in the township you guys have your own regulation in terms of how often the display could change and that again I believe is every 30 seconds. So again we'll be well beyond even what the federal government
and the DOT believes is a safe um frequency to change the message of the electronic billboard. In addition uh they did look at and and as part of those studies uh look at how long someone tends to glance off the road when they're seeing a billboard.
This was done basically by eyetracking technology. They had drivers drive around uh you know like a a sample course and basically measured how often someone was looking away, gazing away or turning their or turning their head uh when uh when they were in the presence
of electronic billboards and static billboards. Essentially what they found is that there's really no distraction change from a driver behavior perspective between your standard static billboards and the visual bill and the digital billboards. Um there were obvious some from that study some uh
cases where the digital billboards actually had less gazing because it was actually a clearer image. So when you're seeing the digital billboard and you know it's um it's something you could see and understand without you know concentrating too closely because some of the older static billboards are not
as clear especially when it's dark out. The the image sometimes gets washed out from the uh light throw. and you'll hear later on from the lighting engineer about how our lighting is different than those old standard um static billboards. Um so again, one of the items that is is
clear when I do these types of analysis is um besides the fact that the FHWA's indicated there's no significant change in accidents from when you have a digital billboard to you having no billboard at all. One of the things that's important is to make sure the digital billboard doesn't necessarily
pop out at someone. You don't want this billboard to be something that someone really only sees or has the ability to see for a very short period of time because that will actually draw their attention to it more than if it's just generally omnipresent near the roadway. So what we did is we prepared this uh
exhibit which I guess we'll title A2. >> Yeah, this was not submitted to the board. So >> mark it as exhibit A2. And what this shows, this is an aerial image of the the vicinity of the site. Um at the subject site, which is generally in the middle of the page, uh there is a red V
that represents the billboard. Uh and then there are outer V's um that represent uh basically the driver's viewing angle as they would be approaching this site when you're coming um southbound to the site. So that would be from the on the left side of the page. Um, if you notice, if you
basically drive from the Acme all the way to basically the Wawwa or where the existing billboard is today on the on that side of the road, you're basically climbing a hill. You're climbing a hill about 20 feet over that entire distance from the Acme all the way to this location. And then basically right when you get to the billboard is when you
would have the bill the existing billboard that's on the other side of the roadway is when you'll start to see uh our billboard. Um because at that point you've reached the crest of the road and then you'll basically be able to see our billboard at that location.
That's about 900 to a,000 feet uh from um uh the billboard is when you'll start to be able to see it. That means the billboard will be present for about 9 to 10 seconds of your drive. So, it's something that allows you to, you know, be able to notice the image, but doesn't
necessarily pull your attention away from the from the uh angle of the road. When you're coming the other direction, so you're coming northbound now, and this is so you're coming from near where the Route 18, Route 9 interchange is in that location. We're somewhat limited by visibility as it relates to um the
curvature of the road from a horizontal perspective. The road kind of curves as it goes under Route 18. Uh and then you have uh pretty heavy vegetation on the right hand side of the road there. So you'll start to be able to see the billboard uh just prior to the jug handle ramp that takes you to Spring
Valley. Uh at that location, it's about um uh it's about 700 to 750 ft away from the billboard, which allows you to see the billboard or gives you a viewing time period of 7 seconds. Again, you do not look at the billboard for 7 seconds.
That would be a danger. the DOT and FHWA. Uh they look at the fact that you want to be able to maintain uh uh visual um view of the roadway for uh continuously and be distracted from the roadway for no less than basically one
and a half seconds. Once you look beyond one and a half half seconds off the road, the DOT, the FHWA deems that to be a dangerous condition. So again, what we want to provide is enough time that you could see the sign, but it doesn't draw your attention away from the road. In addition, what we've shown here and
that's what the black lines are showing um or the red lines I mean that are showing that are kind of spread out. Those are basically your general viewing angle. That is what you could see. It's a 20 degree on each direction from from vertical that you could see in your normal peripheral vision. So that does
not require you to turn your head. Uh you could see everything in the red notwithstanding any physical obstructions. Obviously you can't see through buildings. uh but you could see on that 20 degree angle from either direction uh while you're in your car without having having to turn your head. And again, that's the key here is we do
not want drivers having to turn their head in order to see um the billboard itself. As you come around to get close to the billboard because the billboard's height, it all of a sudden becomes not within your view because um you lose the viewing angle from the top of your car.
So actually, as you're waiting at the traffic light at this location, you would not have the billboard visible. So, in terms of, you know, uh I've had projects where we've uh proposed billboards near traffic signals, and there's always a concern. You have lighting from the billboard, you have lighting from the traffic light. There's
an over 25 foot separation between vertically between the traffic light locations and the billboard itself. And again, as you approach the traffic light, the tra the billboard actually becomes above your car, and you'll no longer be able to see it. So, you'll only be able to see the traffic light in
front of you. So again, as part of this application, we did review the existing site conditions to ensure that the uh billboard would be sufficiently viewable that it would not be distracting to the public, but would be just within the normal viewing angles that drivers have along this corridor. We've identified
that the billboard would be visible for about 10 seconds heading southbound, generally from where the existing billboard is on the southbound side to about 120 ft away from our billboard, it'll be visible in the southbound direction. in the northbound direction. You'll basically be able to see it right
where the lane starts to open up for the jug handle at Spring Valley Road. But again, I would, you know, remind the board that the safety of billboards has been studied at a federal level. Uh they are um the location of them are as much under the jurisdiction of the DOT as it
relates to the safety of them. The DOT requires electronic billboards to be no closer than 1,000 ft from one another in the same direction of travel. So, while the billboard on the opposite side of the street is about 870 feet away from our from our billboard,
because it's on the other side of the street, it does not cons,000 ft uh within the same direction of travel. Um, and the DOT also obviously governs the operational aspects of the billboard in terms of not allowing moving images, scrolling images, and the
frequency of the changing of the message. So again, from a safety perspective, this is an application that does u satisfy the FHWA standards and we do have a NJ DOT permit uh because we are consistent with the DOT standards
for locating a digital billboard. >> All right, Matt, just a couple follow-ups. So I know you stated that we comply with the DOT standard in terms of the distance requirement because it's measured on the same side of the road. >> Correct. Notwithstanding the fact that we comply with that, can you just give
your opinion as to whether you're not you think there's any negative impacts as a result of the this proposal being within 875 ft of the other billboard on the other side? Do you see any negative impacts by having them that close together? >> No. >> Okay. And then in terms of the height of
the of the billboard itself, so as indicated by the planner, we do exceed the height um as it would for for for the billboard as it would be in other zones. Do you see any negative impacts at this specific location at this property for having the height that we're proposing? >> No. And and again, I think there's a
couple of of reasons uh why I think the height here is important. One, um again, they as you're coming in the southbound direction, you're climbing in the road till you get to basically the existing billboard in the opposite side of the street. So, there's a grade change of the roadway that's um uh at this general
location. uh in terms of you know as you're approaching the site in that direction from the other direction. If you did not have that height the visibility will be severely limited uh due to the fact that you have that vegetation located in the jug handle near the jug handle and in the area along the right side of the road as
you're approaching the site from coming underneath Route 18. Uh and we also want to provide the appropriate separation between our billboard and the existing freestanding sign for the Lucille. >> Okay. And also just another fact, do you think are there any residential
properties affected um by by where we're placing the billboard at this location? >> No. And again, just to kind of orientate the board, I'm sure the planner will get to it as well, but looking at this image, bottom left corner of the signal uh of the intersection, that's a car dealership. Um you have uh to the top
right corner, I think is like a U-Haul rental type of uh facility. Uh behind us is kind of a a small scale kind of industrial mixed use uh type of development uh with various type of office and smallcale industrial and recreational uses. And as you travel
along Route One in the northbound direction, we got a Mavis Tire and other commercial properties. Um so again from this image which goes at least 10,00 uh there's no uh permanent residential structures uh as shown. >> Okay. So just just to sum up, so from a
civil engineering perspective, you don't there's no negative impacts in your opinion as to the location of the billboard on the property. Correct. >> Correct. On the property itself, it's located outside of any drive aisles or or where areas where the vehicles would travel and it's located significantly
far back from the drivers on Route 9 due to the fact that there's a 45 ft um uh distance between the curb and our property line. >> Okay. And then from a traffic engineering perspective, using your your other hat that you're testifying under, we the application meets all the safety
requirements and all the DOT regulations and and federal regulations that you cited in your testimony. >> Again, yes, we looked at the FHWA requirements and their two publications. We have an NJ DOT permit. Obviously, it's conditional without having this board's approval. Um, but we've met all
of their standards and they are really the governing body as it relates to ensuring that billboards are safe uh for roadway travelers and again our own own uh you know accident studies we've done in the past with billboards. We've found that there's no significant change in accidents uh with or without a
billboard. So whether one's installed uh we've compared accident rates from before a billboard's been installed to after it's been installed and there's really no significant change in accidents. At some locations it actually goes down. I don't think it's because of the billboard and in some cases it may go up nomally nominally again not
because of the billboard itself. >> Okay. All right. Thank you very much. I I have no further questions Mr. Chairman >> Mr. McCarthy >> and no comments for me. Thank you so >> Mr. Secular. I just have one question. Did I hear it right that the existing
freestanding sign is roughly 28 ft into the air? >> Yes, I believe it's >> a pylon sign, right? >> Correct. So you have a 28 foot sign and then you have another sign towering over it which is 65 ft. Is
that right? >> The top of the billboard sign would be 65 ft. The bottom would be 45 ft above. >> Have you studied any of the billboard pylon signs along Route 9 within Old Bridge? >> I've driven it. I don't have any
specific um details in terms of what the heights are. I know the one that's the one that you could almost see within this image on the bottom left looks to be in the maybe the 40 foot range or 35 ft range but again I I didn't I don't have the resolution to study.
>> I just I just wanted to reiterate on this because um the township has an ordinance which limits the height of the billboard signs to 45 ft. Um the zoning board recently um heard an application
that that had proposed a billboard sign that was 35 ft. Um I think in my review memo I also mentioned another sign that recently got uh an approval to convert a static sign into an LED sign which was
again 45 ft. So something for you to um take a look at or revisit uh because I'm pretty certain you won't conclude tonight uh given that there are five members but I think the height has been a primary concern. I do not believe that
in old bridge we have any sign that exceeds that 45 ft limit also when um and you were on all the projects I worked uh on so uh welcome back. Uh but whether it was Regency Center, whether
it was SegMay, all the freestanding signs that were approved, designed or the plans were written for were limited to 30 ft. Um and you know, uh I have a certain dislike for pylon signs uh for
obvious reasons. Um, but at the same time knowing that this site is kind of underdized for the zone, it already has a convenience store and a gas station on it. It has a sign that is 28 almost 28
ft high and you're proposing another billboard. To me, it's a bit of an overutilization of the site, but that's something that you should consider and maybe when you come back, the height would be a concern to me as well as the board members.
>> Definitely heard your comment and I agree. I don't think we're finishing tonight. So, obviously taking that consider >> and I appreciate you being very, you know, direct about your concern, but that's why I also had Mr. Secure specifically talk about the the proposed height that we have and why he didn't think there was any impacts on the
surrounding area, but we will take your comments under advisement before the next meeting. I >> I would also note that the billboard that is on that northbound side, it is basically at the highest point of Route 9 for probably almost a mile in each direction. So it that site well that
sign while it may not be physically that high off the ground you know it may not be our height above the ground when you're coming up from the acme it is sitting 65 ft up in the air because you're sitting 20 ft lower as you're driving up the hill. >> I mean I get that. I get that. But from
a 45 ft if you were asking me for u maybe 48 or a 50 I get it. But when you are 20 feet up in the air higher than what is allowed it is concerning. >> Understood. Anything else? >> I have no further questions for Mr. Second.
>> I'll start on my left. Board members. I wrote a couple things down, but do the math for me on this. The pylon sits at basically 28 feet. It's 27.91. Yes. >> And there's a 20 foot uh billboard by 50
above it. So, it'll sit at 65. So it's sitting at about 15 feet higher than the pylon. Yeah. Mr. Chairman, let me just clarify one thing because this was in Vena's report and I forgot to mention this. So the the the outdoor advertising permit from DOT allows you a 20 by 50
sign. But so we so that's what we put on the on the plans, but the actual this actual one is >> is actually 14 by 48. So I just wanted to make that clear. And she noted that discrepancy on a few of a few of the plans. So it is 14 by 48. Go ahead.
>> So how high above the pylon does is the bottom, >> right? So doing the math, I'm going back to the 20 foot because it's easier math and then we'll go back from that. >> Uh so 65 minus 28
>> 23 feet difference between above. Yes. >> And again if it's >> Yeah. So if if we go to a 14 foot sign that'll be about 29 feet above. So I I I understand there is some room there it seems like for range.
>> Matt, can I >> go right ahead? >> Just a question and this is just me thinking out loud. Would the gas station sign would you
would you recons would you consider shrinking that size, creating a nicer monument sign? uh and then having a billboard because to me when you're in your car and you see a 28 foot high sign
and then above that there is another sign towering it it is it is a bit too much but something for you to think >> yeah we couldn't answer that now but >> I get that but something for you to consider >> okay >> okay okay miss
>> that's it >> all right uh I also wrote down about when you were speaking about the traffic uh concerns of accidents and you say that there's no difference whether it's at an intersection
at or on or about at an intersection or if it would mid be midway down the road. I'm concerned that it sits at an intersection and you're saying that there's no difference in that because the people that are at what distance?
How many car lines? Obviously, the traffic backs up there both ways coming out if you were coming northbound uh on 9 or if you're going southbound particularly in the evening hours and the traffic is in reverse. So, at what point does that sign disappear from my my view?
>> Right. So, if you're going southbound, >> the billboard sits, you know, I think it's about 150 feet back of the stop bar. So, obviously you're past the billboard. It's behind you. The, you know, the let's say the last six the first six cars, they can't
see it because the billboard's behind them. Then the next six or seven cars, that billboard is out of sight because it's basically above them. It's it's above the roof of their car. So you're talking about about 12 cars or so would not be able to see the billboard at all when they're waiting at the traffic
light. >> The first 12 >> the first 12 in that direction. >> And then what about the what about the 13th? >> The 13th >> which normally causes the rear end accidents. [clears throat] >> So again the let's say the 13th car or so um the billboard would be
significantly to their basically out their side window at that point and not in front of them >> if you're going northbound. if you're going southbound. So if now if you're going >> south and I'll do north next. >> Okay. So that that that's the southbound direction is that you basically it's also, you know, significantly separated from your flow of traffic in the
southbound direction. Northbound direction. Now we're flipping around the other way. I actually think the benefit here is that as the drivers come around, and this is where I wish I had a board and I could physically point to it. as you're coming around um coming underneath Route 18, coming through this
corridor here, you're basically facing kind of to the left and the billboard is off to your right. So, the billboard is not over again the traffic lights in any way. It's basically again off to the right, but similar to what you were questioning, how many cars back the
first two, three cars in that direction would not be able to see it. Then you would be able to see it kind of out your right >> because it's a deceleration l uh ramp coming from 18 coming from coming from 18 north that loads onto uh Route 9 at
that intersection. >> Yes. >> That intersection comes up rather quickly. >> Correct. Well, if if it's not full of traffic. Yes. >> Yeah. Well, in a heavy load of traffic, [laughter] it would uh that site that comes into view rather quickly and
disturbingly so if uh if that thing is uh right there in the intersection. Was there any ever any study done about that at at the approach? >> Um >> I know you're saying that it it doesn't come into people's window view. >> Correct. >> Because it's too tall
>> for the window. One of the benefits of the two I would again I would have a bigger issue if the billboard was down at let's say 20 ft and you're basically looking through a traffic light at an image. That's where I would have concerns with a digital image. Again, if you're looking through a light and
you're you have a green light or a red light in front of you and you're trying to decipher that with a you know Joe the plumber call me if you have a flood issue, you know, in the background because the sign is significantly separated both horizontally and vertically. I think it's a better location here and I don't have that
concern with with signal with it being close to signal. I have worked on probably a handful of other sites that have been corner lots like this, you know, whether it's a Dunkin Donuts, a fast food restaurant, a convenience store with gas. And similarly, we ensured when we were designing them that
we had vertical and horizontal separation that it was not basically in the background of the light and it there's basically it's off to the side of the light. You said the DOT distance from the other billboard. What did what is a DOT set amount under a thousand?
>> They do not allow for billboards on the same side of the roadway within 1,000 ft. >> The ordinance here is 2,000 in between. Right. >> The ordinance here is is different than the DOT stand. >> I understand the ordinance. Said the DOT
>> DOT standard is a thousand feet on the same side. You have a spec an ordinance that doesn't matter what side you're on. It's 2,000 ft within a another billboard. >> And I would say on your on this side of the roadway, there's nothing within 2,000 ft. >> But again, your definition doesn't
>> I know that there is not. Yeah. >> What's the distance between this proposed billboard and the other one? >> The one near the Wawa on the opposite side. I think it's 875 ft. >> Okay. Thank you. Anybody else with any other questions? >> I just have a concern. Um Spring Valley Road and Texas Road, there's a threec
car lane and it goes down to two and a bottleneck. That's my only concern with that sign up there with the two signs one on top of the other. It's going to be a distraction like the way Vina was saying they can comprise it down to one or make it more feasible like
like um design style or something because if I'm coming down there and these cars are barreling down and it's a known area for accidents. All Spring Valley and Texas Road are known for this. You're going from three lanes down to two and all a sudden you're going to hit boom you're going to get in an accident because you're looking at something up above you. That's my
concern. >> Understood. And again, I think we'll take Vena's uh recommendations in consideration and we'll see what we design when we come back. >> The monuments, the pylon sign that that's there at 28. I mean, the the ordinance here on normal signs is 18
might be something to consider. Uh just thought throw it out. Maybe you you and your people could work on that. >> Uh on my left again because I think we're going to dismiss this witness. Councelor, >> nothing. Mr. chairman. >> All right. Uh
we have reached we're coming up on the 40minut uh >> I was going to say too because if we are going to make modifications based on the comments we've heard I'd want the lighting expert to testify with whatever is going to actually be proposed too. >> So I'm going to ask you to make this your last witness then. Yes. >> I do have to open up a public course. Of
course. >> Uh before you open it up to public, I just want to offer uh if your team wants to meet with us for technical review meeting to go over, I'll be more than happy to u meet with you guys. Uh you can reach out to Morina. I know my
schedule is really packed, but she'll that's why she's laughing, but she'll try to squeeze something in for a virtual meeting. >> No, that'd be great. Thank you so much. >> Sure. >> Mr. Sackler, it was a great presentation and you you put forth a lot of great information and your eyesight is amazing. [laughter] You can read that. >> It's not that good. >> Okay.
>> I just memorized what's on there. >> You could have got away with it. You didn't have to admit to that. >> I'm under >> uh I'm going to open up a public portion on this and uh if people are going to speak on this matter, I'm going to ask you to be brief and concise. You have to deal with the issue of what the
testimony was, not what you may think should happen or shouldn't happen, but that's what we would be discussing. Uh, please don't be repetitive. If I don't know that [clears throat] anybody's coming up, but if there's a lot of people going to come up, please don't be repetitive. Somebody asked the question prior to you, uh, please don't uh, uh,
ask the same one. I don't know about this application. Uh, we normally don't limit time, but, uh, councelor, could we limit a fourm minute? >> Yes, Mr. Chairman. There's going to be a four-minute cap on all public testimony from the public.
>> Okay. All right. Thank you. Anyone want to be heard? Let me This is uh let me call it in. 47-2024Z the for the uh Vsign uh billboard located at uh the intersection basically the intersection nine and uh just north
of Spring Hill Road. >> All right. Before we begin, please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm and tell the truth nothing but the truth to help you God? >> Yes, sir. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Nina Jacnitz. J O C H N O W I TZ. >> And your address?
203 West Greystone Road, Old Bridge, New Jersey. >> I'm coming here as a wildlife rehabber here in Oldbridge. I am licensed by the state of New Jersey. Do I need to give my permit number >> four? >> I don't know. I'm just asking. Okay. Um
I do have a question about this and it's regarding light pollution and migratory the United States migratory bird act federal uh laws. You're talking about a light uh lighting that's going to go up 65 ft into 11:00 at night. And I do have concerns about this. Now, I know that
you the lighting engineer I'm not sure he hasn't spoken yet. However, is this an appropriate time to ask this question, chairman? >> Well, they are going to they we've been told they are going to present a light specialist who's going to probably speak to more to your issue. >> Okay. Because I am very concerned
because it's very tall and uh we do have a lot of woodlands. We have a lot of migratory birds that come through our town still and hopefully forever. Um, and that said, um, I'm not sure if this gentleman here who did very a good presentation would like to answer some
of this at this point. >> You think he'll probably be here? Counselor, is the engineer going to be here at the next meeting? >> Yeah, I appreciate the the comments so we know in advance, but I think having the lighting expert testify first, then be able to be responsive would probably be the best way to go. >> Fine. And next meeting is
>> Well, we haven't gotten that to >> Oh, I thought it was part of this. Okay. Sorry. No, it'll be another date. >> That's what I'm asking. Yes, another date. >> It will be set for another date yet. >> Okay. >> You'll hear it in a few minutes when we finish the public portion. Anyone else want to be heard on this matter? Please
raise your hand. >> Councelor, I see none. You see any? >> No, Mr. Chairman. >> Close the public portion. Let's get a date uh for continuence. >> January 8th, >> let me check. Hold on.
>> And professionals that >> Yes. >> Hold on one second. Mr. Deval, the only thing I've been told is that we have a rather uh booked out beginning of the year.
>> January 8th is the reorg meeting. >> My lighting consultant just said he was unavailable that day anyway. So, do you want to go to another the next meeting? >> I Well, I think that's what Miss Sant is looking at right now. >> Yeah, that's I think the first half of
the year is >> all right. Just for those here in the room, what we're trying to decide is the professionals have to pick a date that they're going to be available to come back into our meetings in 2026. So, it'll just be a moment. Thank you.
>> Um, what day of the week? >> All right, I'll we'll take it. Fine, we'll take it. February 19th. We'll take February 19th. >> It also gives us more time if we're going to make revisions. Absolutely.
>> What What was the date, Miss? >> February 19th. >> February 19th. >> Yes. >> That's okay, counselor. >> Yes. >> And you'll sign your way. Will you? >> Yeah. If there's if there's a need for me to sign an extension, that's fine,
but we'll extend through the end of February. That's fine. >> Wonderful. >> This matter uh Bergen Conex uh concepts 47-ish 2024Z. It's going to be put on the schedule for February 19th. Uh there will be no further notice at this point.
>> 2026 7:30 p.m. in this room. >> 7:30. It does start with the reorg though. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Uh Mr. Sackler, thank you. And uh >> thank you, counselor. >> Thank you. February 19th. >> Did I
say the matter is being carried to February 19th, 2025 without the need for further notice? >> 2026. >> I'm going to mess that up a couple times. >> That time of year. >> All right, we we have to switch stenographers, so I'm going to ask for a
quick recess. We're going to go off uh TV. We'll be back in five. Excuse me. We have come back from recess. Miss Porchelli, could we have a roll call, please? >> Certainly. Mr. Iso, >> here. >> Mr. Scognau,
>> present. >> Miss Spanelli, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> here. >> Chairman Sullivan, >> here. Miss Sant >> here. >> Mr. Varga >> here. >> Mr. McCarthy >> here. >> Thank you. Uh the next application is
12-2025Z. It's T properties zone R15 medium density residential block 17004 lot 11.11. Physical location is 475 Marbor Road in Old Bridge. It's for training facility
for electronic vehicle repair. Applicant proposes a minor site improvements permeable driveway connecting parking lot to rearfacing bay door change of use to training facility as described above. They're seeking major preliminary and final site plan with devariance. Thomas
Garlic Esquire representing the applicant. Sir, >> thank you chair. U make sure you can hear me. Uh good evening chair, members of the board. Chair pretty much summarized my opening so I appreciate it. uh Thomas Garlic from Murphy Schiller and Wils on behalf of the applicant TR Properties 2 LLC. Um we're
here seeking a preliminary and final major site plan um which is by definition, but really we have very I think minor uh site improvements that are before you today. As the chair mentioned, we're looking at a a rear-facing driveway that's per uh
permeable material that will allow our uh client to move vehicles in and out of the garage base toward the rear of the property. As the chair mentioned, uh the applicant is proposing an EV uh repair training facility business. Um essentially like a very very small
Lincoln Tech facility that is just going to provide education for techs looking to do repairs on electronic vehicles. Um um just to provide the board with a little bit of summary of the use and the operation. Um the vehicles on site are
going to be supplied by the manufacturers. This is not something where someone's going to bring their broken down vehicle and offer it for repair. It's something that essentially a vehicle uh by Riven or Lucid, something like that, so that the techs or the 2B techs can learn on a on a new
vehicle what what to do. Um the school will be operating typical business hours looking at 8 to 5 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Monday through Friday. So this is just a regular weekday operation. Uh at the largest we're expecting 18 students on site. It's
typically classes of six. They may overlap a little bit, but at max we're looking at 18 students on site at a given time with three instructors. So we're looking at 21 uh roughly 21 people on site at a given time at the maximum. [snorts] Um
operations will be limited solely to the interior. There's nothing going on on the outside. There won't be any storage on the outside. Uh there might be three or four vehicles that are being used as uh subjects for uh for the lessons. They'll be stored on the interior in the garage area of the site. Um and they'll
be moved in and out again through that that driveway in the rear. There'll be testimony to this effect, but I'm just giving you a quick summary. Uh in terms of witnesses, we do have four total witnesses, but in terms of the time limitations tonight, and I appreciate that we had the opportunity to get started tonight. We're just going to be uh anticipating our engineer to go over
our site plan uh as well as our architect to provide you with the proposed floor plan. Uh then we'll come back uh with our traffic engineer and our planner uh for the additional testimony when that's available. Um other than that, we're in receipt of the October 15, 2025 forestry report as well
as the uh board planning, engineering, and traffic report dated December 1st, 2025. We're we're happy to discuss that. Uh if the board doesn't have any questions, um I I notice I'm I believe is in order. I would just ask the board. >> Absolutely. >> We're attorney. >> Ready to be sworn in?
>> Yeah, we're ready for our first witness. >> You swear, affirm, tell the truth, nothing but the truth to help you God. >> I do. >> Please say your name is by your last for the record. >> Laura Tatton, T is in Tom O Ten, Crest Engineering Associates, Inc. Milstone Township, New Jersey. I have a
professional engineering license uh in New Jersey that is in effect and has been since 1983. A bachelor of science in civil engineering. I have worked for Crest Engineering for 30 almost 32 years and
>> certainly we accept uh Miss Miss Tatton's credentials. She's appeared here numerous occasions over the years that I've sat here. She's an expert in her field and we certainly recognize that. you in the audience. This is a professional engineer that'll be testifying next. >> Thank you, Chair. Uh, Miss Tatton, uh, I
know you brought an exhibit with you today, I think, to orient the the board. I'd like to mark it as A1 and then have you identify what what the document is. >> Yes, this is an aerial taken from near map image that was dated October 1st, 2020.
And it shows get a little closer. And it shows the in a white rectangle the site and then dashed line is approximately 200 ft around to give you an idea uh where the site is situated and you can see that
it's should I just continue? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yes, please. >> Thank you. Um, it's, as you can see, it's located between Marorrow Road, which is a county road, and Route 18, which is a state highway, not too far uh
north of Birch Street, and the corner of it lines up with First Place. It is in a residential district, as was noted. There are other some other commercial uses in the area, which uh will be testified to later on. My job tonight is
to explain to you what we want to do to the site. So, if maybe we could move to the variance plan sheet three, I believe. >> Thank you. Um, so with regard to the
existing conditions, it is lot 11.11. I love uh numbers like that. Um, sorry, lot 11.11 block 17004. It contains approximately 54,000 square feet. And I
did note in the letter that we have a about a 94 square foot difference between the survey and the site plan. The survey would be correct. Marbor Road Route 17, Route 70 and Route 18 as I said are on either side of the site. Uh
we are here or actually this site plan and use variance for the dance studio was approved in November 20 uh 2000 and was occupied by about 20 uh 05.
It is an existing building with 8,278 ft on the first floor and 1905 ft on the second floor. There is a single Oh. Um, >> sheet three. >> Three. Thank you.
Uh, and a single entrance off entrance exit. >> Yes. Thank you. off of Marorrow Road, which is located right in this area where the stop bar is. I don't know which one of these boards would be easier for
>> I think for the audience and I think the board members can see this one. >> Okay. Thank you. um Marbor Road across the top of the screen, uh route uh 18 across the bottom, and there's a resither side of the property. It is,
um, as you could see from the aerial before, it is wooded along between the parking lot and the property line and between the parking lot and Route 18. And there uh so it contains um 23 parking spaces. My cover sheet is wrong.
It says 26. My apologies. 23 parking spaces, two ADA spaces in the corner of the parking lot, uh a drop off area in the front. There is a detention basin that surrounds it on uh two and a half
sides with an outfall down by Marbor Road that ties into the Marbor Road drainage system. Currently, there is an overflow consisting of a rip wrap apron uh that overflows through the middle and down the slope
into Route 18. Uh there are existing facilities as you would imagine, water, sewer, electric, etc. to the site because it's been in operation for I don't know 20 years, 15 years. Um and all of the facil during my site visit
appeared to be in reasonable condition. However, should any feature um be not in the best of repair or be less than acceptable condition, it will be repaired in accordance with the township ordinances regulations.
There are no flood planes on the site. There it would is a possibility of there's a ditch along Route 18. There is a possibility of some associated wetlands along this area. I did have my wetlands expert go look today and he
thinks that there might be some, but it was a very quick look. Uh we since we will be heard again, we'll try to find that a little bit better prior to the next meeting. And of course, should you approve the application, we would uh definitely
determine the status of those wetlands and whether or not any permits would be needed. Um the uh see so I'm going to talk about the zoning very briefly. Um the a use variance was obtained for the original use of a dance
studio and um use variance usually all of the setbacks and so on are subsumed into it. But what I do really want to say here is that we are not changing any bulk front side or rear yard setbacks.
We're not changing the building coverage and we're not changing the impervious coverage. And you say, how can we do that when we're putting in that little drive? So, the proposal is, as you heard, to convert this dance studio into
a place for technicians to learn how to repair motor vehicles. Uh, so what we we don't need to change anything about the layout of the parking lot. What we do need to do is figure out how to get the cars into the rear of the building where
the demonstrations occur. So what we we took very careful consideration of this because we wanted to not increase the impervious cover. We wanted to impact the site as little as possible. So, we put in a driveway or an access way and
it it goes through the handicap space and the handicap accessible aisle that's located in the direction where I have my pointer pointing. So, what we're using is this geocell product that contains
uh it constrains and contains stone so that it makes like gravel, but it doesn't move around like gravel does. stays put and it has a lot of strength. It's intended to use in parking areas where you don't want to put down asphalt
or concrete. So, we thought this would be a good use for that. The same company. So, so we had to raise the ground a little here because it slopes off. Um, and as I noted before, there's a bit of the detention basin that extends. It's the highest part upstream
part of the detention basin with the overflow into uh route 18 is located here. So we are doing a minimal amount of excavation or proposing in the part of the detention basing putting
proposing to put in a wall made out of these Preston cell uh which is a again a constrained combination of stone and cells that uh should you want to you can actually make it look green because there's places to put pockets of soil in
it. So it's a fairly natural looking result. Um so what we've done is this detention basin here had a certain volume in it up to the 100year flood elevation where it leaves the outlet
structure. So we added enough volume by doing some excavation in this area to make the volume the same so that the system will operate the same. And since this um even though it's raised a little bit, it still drains in the same
direction as the original area behind the building did. So, we're maintaining all of the existing characteristics of the original drainage. We're not increasing the impervious cover, but we are able to make a connection for the
our uh EVs to be brought into the building. So, um, you're in reading the professionals letter, uh, they had a great idea. You only need one handicap space based on the number of parking spaces that are there. We also need an
EV space. So, what we and they suggested maybe eliminating one of the spaces. So, what I would like to do is eliminate one and because we have enough parking spaces at 23, go down to 22. um and and
stripe this off so that this whole area in front of the access is striped, which would minimize any kind of uh conflict between somebody parking in that space and bringing the vehicles in and out. Of course, that could be managed anyway because you just don't do it when
there's somebody in that spot. Um, and then put in a a ready u make ready EV station with two a double one with two a um charging ports on the line between the regular space and the handicap
accessible space and therefore you're putting in availability for two places to charge and one for a handicap accessible space somebody that might need that. So, and I didn't look at the ordinance to see if Old Bridge changed
it, but for purposes of parking counts, those two spaces would each count as four spaces. So, in in essence, we lose one and we gain two. So, we're at 24 spaces for purposes of uh meeting the uh parking
ordinance. Um, see if I covered everything. Oh, so some of the uh other items I'd like to discuss would be as this road is a county road up here and should you grant approval, we will make application to the county. So, we would be guided by
the county on what kind of improvements might be needed up along here. Uh we are hoping that they won't insist on uh sidewalk because there are a number of trees along here that installing the sidewalk may damage, but we would
investigate that uh with the county and of course coordinate with your professionals on that. Um there's been a request for sight triangles. I think that because there's a very wide shoulder here and you start looking at
the sight triangle sight distance 14 ft off of the uh drivable area of the road that the light s I can talk tonight the line of sight will be within the right ofway of
the property but we would be happy to investigate that as Well, let's see. Um, there was a a comment about lighting. Very good question. So, I was really concentrating on the fact that
this is an existing parking lot with existing lighting. There's a a bit of a concern about the lighting behind the building. Well, there happens to be a light pole right here, which does uh cast light in this area. Um, and then we will all doors have to have lights over
the top of them just for security purposes. So, I believe that that that would be uh be able to be handled. And for the most of the year, it's light at the end of these classes and I'm pretty sure that the that the vehicles need to
be in before the beginning of the class. So, I don't feel that there's a problem with light, but of course, we would coordinate with your professional staff on that. Uh with with regard to landscaping, we weren't really proposing any new landscaping uh because it is
pretty well landscaped already. There may be three or four trees that may have to come down to accommodate our uh access. Um and of course, we would request a tree removal permit to remove those trees. Uh finally, with regard to
outside agencies, this area right here is only that we're disturbing is under 5,000 square ft. So it's and just so you know, that's less than a tenth of the area of the lot itself. So it's a very small area that we're impacting um with
the reuse of this existing and currently vacant building. U so we don't need freehold soil conservation district approval. However, of course, we would show sil fence in here because that's the only responsible thing to do. Um, and and fortunately for the
construction, they've got the parking lot, so they uh I believe that there wouldn't be any soil that would be taken out onto the street. Um, and then of course I already mentioned Middle Sex County Planning Board and uh the other I
think we may have to coordinate with the water and sewer people to show them that we're not increasing any of the uses over what was there in the past. Um, and possibly D, which I'm hoping not when we go through and investigate this area a
little further. And that is I think the sum of what I can tell you about this project because it doesn't have a lot of engineering to it. We're going to put one of those EV chargers in here for all the stenographers. [laughter] Swipe your card and
>> be nice. counselor. >> Uh so, Miss Totten, I just want to ask you a couple questions that come from the uh the engineering planning report that we received from the board. Um I always think I'm too loud. Okay. Um,
there's a question as to, I believe, a shed and a fence that kind of meander or cross over the property line. As far as we know, there's no easement uh for either of those uh encroachments. Correct. >> That's correct. Uh the owner, who would probably say something about this when
he comes up, he he is not unhappy that they have the fence over the line and the shed and doesn't feel he wants to make them take it off. If you feel that an easement to them would be beneficial, we could work that out.
>> I think I think the shed is is blocked by landscaping at this point. It's not even really observable site. Correct. >> And the fence is right in that area. >> Um >> we'll defer to uh our council on that matter and professionals.
>> I think uh just I just wanted to quickly note that was more of anformational comment. And I think the way it was worded was we were more just looking to see if there was anything and it was more of just to to bring it your to your attention. It's a private property matter. So >> that's all. >> Thank you. Um there's uh there's five
air conditioning units that are in the area of the two driveway or the bay or in the the driveway and the two bay doors. Um, your understanding from the applicant is that he's going to move those uh those units either into the U shape between
the two doors if possible or keep some in place and then move some to the other side uh of the left side driveway. Is that correct? >> Yes. I believe we only have to move two of
them in order to accommodate the tech to take a look. >> Not too close. >> Not too close. Okay. Is this Can you hear me now? >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh, and I just want to confirm for the record, we have no ingress or eress off of State Route 18. Correct.
>> That's correct. None. >> Um, >> while you're looking, I will say we there are a few in uh stormwater comments and housekeeping comments in the review letter. and I had uh the opportunity to speak with the preparer
of the letter and um I think we can work with it and come up with the answers to all the stormwater questions which aren't difficult and the housekeeping items are just a couple things got turned off on the layers. We can take care of all of that. So I'm comfortable
with the engineers letter. >> That's that's fine by me. I think the only item I was going to ask is if uh we can supply the the board professionals with information as to the geo web to show that uh it's it's rated properly for the types of vehicles that the
applicants told you will be operating or or traveling on the driveway. Is that correct? >> Yes, you're comfortable with it. >> Yes, we we can provide specification sheets of the uh the wall and the granular pavement surface. It's not as
common as like Allen Block and some of the other more common products, but it's a good product. And I've been told that the walls last a 100red years. >> Okay. I won't be around to confirm that. But >> me neither. [laughter]
>> Chair, I don't have any other questions for this witness. >> Uh Mr. McCarthy. >> Sorry, just some more housekeeping things just to quickly run through it. Um, so as far as how students are going to get to the site, is it just are we assuming that they're going to drive
some kind of car pooling, busing? >> I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm sorry. What are my client will either testify tonight if there's time? I I I'm looking at my watch. >> Okay. >> Or at the next meeting just to provide some additional operational questions and he'll he'll hit on that one. >> Okay. Uh the other one that I had and so
I I know that there's no access on Route 18. I think we were just concerned as far as how the construction is going to operate because we're right on the property line. So you'll probably need some kind of construction access permit for them. So just if there was any um conversations with them yet or just if
you know what the status of that would be. So with regard to that, I think it would be uh a much better idea for me to push that outlet structure a little bit away from the property line. Uh so that that takes that off the table. >> Okay.
Uh let me see here. >> And what he was talking about is the little uh the outlet structure here. Um it is a bubbler inlet. I think I said that. I'm not certain. But it's I can push it a little closer to the driveway so that you don't have to cross the
property line to construct. I think that makes life simpler. >> Yes. Yeah, that would that would be excellent. Um I think one of the storm water questions just to get it on the record. um major stormwater project with New Jersey with D. Just confirming from
um some of our previous conversation that the property received approval uh prior to February of 2004. >> Yes, it did. it it received uh its approval in 2000 and actually it was under construction
uh my company got involved in about April when it was under construction because there were some some issues with trying to get the CFO. So I know for a fact that it was well under construction by that time. So therefore because
there's less than a quarter acre of new impervious is actually none then and the area of disturbance is less than an acre uh it is not a major project. >> Okay. Um and I think the only other one just
to to make it a little bit clearer. So um with the site lighting that's going to be added if we could get some kind of lighting plan just to show what those foot candles are. I I understand that for I would say 10 months out of the year it's going to be operating during um hours where there is light um but at
like right now 4:30 it kind of starts to get dark just to make sure that there there are no issues or we could do like a nightlight field test to confirm it after the fact >> I would be happy to do either one u but the nightlight is a good idea. >> Okay,
that's all that I have. Thank you, Mr. >> Um, I don't have any questions uh for Laurel. Um I think I'll reserve all my questions for the planner >> operational. We're going to have someone come come and tell us a little bit more of >> Yes. >> walk the board around.
>> Yes. >> In that in that matter what's going to happen there. >> Yes. >> And for the record, you the you're not altering the footprint of the building whatsoever. >> Not not one iota. >> Okay. And you also said that there may be a possibility of a wetland being out
towards 18. >> You're not going to disturb any of that area either? >> No. >> Or you're going to identify it if it is there. >> Yes. >> Okay. But you're not going anywhere near it. >> Correct. >> Okay. And onsite parking obviously you're going to have I think three extra
spots as it turns out. >> Yes. And Mr. Ray from Mcdana Ray will be here to describe that in more detail. And this is clearly a electric car uh teaching school. >> Yes. >> So there'll be no mechanical sounds
though there won't be any engine sounds of combustion. >> Correct. >> Okay. I'm going to go to my board on my left. We can start down with Miss Gomez. >> Your microphone. >> That's okay. >> I have a question. Being that it's going to be an electronic teaching school, >> Lis, you have to put that right in
front. It's directional. Being that it's going to be a electronic teaching school, are there going to be high power charges, you know, for the for the uh batteries and things like that that would make noise? >> I'm sorry to defer that question to the
uh owner of the project. He will be able to tell you in very specific detail. >> Okay. Thank you, >> Mr. Fidel. >> I'm good. >> Mr. Scogn, >> Mr. Rizzo's good. I'm good. You got uh
about 15 uh 20 minutes left. >> We could Yeah, we don't we don't anticipate our architect taking that long for a drive. >> You got 20 minutes left. >> I know what I want for Christmas. >> Everybody's going
tomorrow. >> Start. Thank you for your testimony. >> Just get this from under the chair before make a fool of us. All right. >> Are we back on? >> We good? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> You swear affirm tell the truth and nothing but the truth to help you. God.
>> Yes. >> Please state your names. Barry last for the record. >> Charles P. Deetsz. Die TZ. Managing member of the Deets Partnership LLC Architects. >> What are you counselor? >> Mr. Deetsz, you want to just provide the board with the benefit of your uh educational background, your
credentials? I have a bachelor's of architecture degree from the New Jersey Institute of Technology, New Jersey School of Architecture. Uh 43 years ago, I'm a licensed architect in the state of New Jersey as well as 13 other states for the past 36 years. And my licenses
are current and in good standing. >> Thank you. For those in the We're going to accept his credentials obviously for those in the audience if you're interested. This man is a licensed architect within the state of New Jersey. He's going to testify as to that. Sir, thank you. Uh, Mr. Deetsz, if you
could just take the board through the plans that your firm prepared. >> Yes, I I have two plans that are before you that were submitted previously, a floor a floor plan sheet and then an exterior elevation sheet. And as Miss Totten testified, limited engineering, I have even more limited architecture. The
only thing that involved me on the exterior of the building is I had to specify the two overhead doors that are going to be installed at the rear of the building. And we've had a structural engineer look at it because we have to provide a new header detail because these doors are are, you know, big
enough to let a car drive in. So that's just not your standard lentil. So he's actually already engineered this. So if we get approval, we can move right into that phase. So that's the only thing I'm involved with on the exterior. What I'm here to talk about, I guess at a little larger scale than Miss Totten site plan,
is we have an existing first floor. And as she mentioned, this is her drive aisle that brings the cars into the building. Uh we're basically reusing almost all the walls that are there today from when it was a dance studio. Main entrance at the front if you're
coming in. Uh bathrooms, small office, one of the three classrooms. There'll be two classrooms on the second floor that's existing and one uh classroom on the first floor. That's where you might get the six to seven people with a teacher sitting in the classroom style
looking at manuals, looking at things like you would in any educational facility. And then what you see here is we have two uh training rooms that are about the same size, opposite of each other. This lower training room actually does have one of the overhead doors that'll allow a vehicle to come in. And
what I'm being told is that is where it'll be estimated of what has to be done uh as it comes in before any work or testing on it is done. That will be in this space. Uh then this other doorway will allow multiple vehicles to be brought in and it will actually be
segregated into three different areas. Each one doing something very specific on the electric vehicle. Something will be done in this area. And again, uh the applicant will be able to speak more in detail. Once it finishes here, it might move over to this spot. They'll do something else to the vehicle at that
location. Again, something here. And then the third uh spot, I think, might be the calibration area. If I remember correctly, there's welding, calibration, testing. All that will go and the vehicle will just move through and then can come back out and leave the building as necessary. As was mentioned, if
there's two different manufacturers that they're talking to, then they can move either another one in on another day, but that's how the vehicles will come in and enter. And basically, all that work will be done on the first floor. If you go to my next slide or page,
so this is the existing second floor. Again, we have two classroom areas on the second floor, uh, a utility room, um, and the other classroom, and then a bathroom as well. And again, that'll be more for the
teaching of the technicians when they're sitting there in a classroom style by one of the training facility uh, advisors. So, it's pretty simple. Like I said, we only got to move a couple walls on this floor. The good news is we were able to reuse as much as possible of the
structure interior and exterior of the existing building. And and the biggest challenge on the outside was making sure my engineer could get a header in to cover the size of the width of these doors, which are wider than like a normal residential garage door. But he was able to do it. He went out and had a
site visit. That's actually the detail. Uh and we're going to be able to slip a header in there if and when we get approved and which will allow us to put these oversized garage doors in. So really I think it's a very simple part project architecturally once the use is good everything is
almost in place as we need it today and I think our planner and the applicant will give you more detail on that but that's really very minimal scope for myself as the architect. I've known the applicant for years. I've done some of his other facilities. So that's really why I was brought on a face and person
that he's known for 15 20 years on his other other car spaces. Uh, Mr. Deetsz, uh, there's a question. I don't know if you can answer this, or this might be a question for the operator. Um, there's a question as to whether or not the doors, the bay doors that are proposed will have any kind of alarm or make any noise when they go up
and down. Are you aware of whether or not those that kind of door would have that or require that? >> It'll have minimal noise. I mean, they're big enough that they're going to be electronic so that they as opposed to someone sitting there and trying to pull the chain up and and lift a tall door like that. But I mean, you'll have more
noise, let's say, coming off of Route 18 than what these two doors would ever emit once they're in the opening and closing mode. >> And it's not going to be operated like a service center where cars are going in and out regularly. Those are really just to bring cars once. >> Bring the vehicles in that maybe that
morning. They'll work all day on them and then they'll stay closed. Obviously, in the winter and summer months, you don't want that hot or cold air coming in. And then if they have to leave when they move to the next either manufacturer or another day's classroom, they'll open the doors and close. So if it's two or three times a day, one in
the morning, one at night, and maybe one in the middle, that's probably all that's going to work for for these doors. And the fact that they're facing Route 18, the truck traffic on Route 18 is going to emit a lot more ambient noise than these doors would ever emit. >> Okay. But there's no plan for an alarm or anything like or need for an alarm.
No, he'll probably have a a security system because I've done his his body shop buildings and obviously they have expensive cars with expensive parts and someone knows about that, then yes, they could be candidates. But he's a very uh
securityoriented owner and is familiar with that and how to protect his investments of his cars and all his parts. So, I'm sure he will have a full alarm system for security if someone were to try to break in and steal either the cars or any of the parts that go with these expensive cars.
>> Okay. Um, there's a question on signage. I know we're not proposing any kind of signage right now, but if there's anticipated signage, if you've spoken with the applicant on that, could you just provide the board with a little bit of >> what what he's thinking of because it's really his place and what they might want to do on the front door. If you go
back to the first page, please. uh what he's hearing from the the two electric vehicle manufacturers, they have a logo. They might want to just like place a vinyl letter logo on the front door that faces the street. So obviously it's small if it's fitting on
a 3 foot by seven foot door, but that would identify either if it was a Lucid or you know whoever Rivian type person. And I believe I've been told by the civil engineer that there might be an existing small monument, existing sign out uh by the street. So if we go to
reuse that, we would not even change it. We would just change the name if it says dance studio and we would put one of the logos on that, but it would not be new. It would stay in place and we would reuse the structure and any electric that might be there at this time. >> I don't I don't have any further
questions for this witness. >> Mr. McCarthy. >> Sure. Uh the only one I have and again it might be better for the operator. Um just just wanted to confirm and put on the record if uh all repairs for the EV vehicles, all the work that's going to be done is going to be interior. Nothing
will be done outside. >> I'd leave it for him, but I think what Miss Toss Totten spoke about is we're not proposing to bring cars out in the parking lot and work on them in any way outside of the building. >> I'll I'll say that, but we'll we'll have the operator testify to that, too. >> No problem. >> It's all going to be interior. >> Thank you.
Just one just one question comment. Uh any proposed sign will comply with the signage ordinance of the township. Correct. Um and you will ensure that uh before you file the permits. >> Correct. And they would come in with their signed person if they do that and
they would fill out a normal zoning application to get a sign approved for a building like you would normally do on any other building in town. >> Sure. Thank you. I have no >> Thank you, Miss W. Start on my left. Mr. Gomez, >> no questions. >> Mr. Penelli,
Mr. Riza, >> as an architect, let me ask you a question. Uh, you're not changing the structure of the building. >> Correct. >> Uh, I don't know what it's made of. Will will noise emanate beyond the walls of the building? >> It should not. Uh, it's an insulated
building, so that'll help both for thermal and for noise transmission. And again, the fact that we're putting electrical vehicles in there, if you've ever driven an electrical ve electric vehicle, they are extremely quiet while they're turned on. So unlike a combustion engine, you don't hear it
when you start it up, you don't hear it while it's on, and you don't hear it when you shut it off. So again, we're not doing anything. We're not doing oil changes or putting it up on on crazy things to take the car apart. It's really just to look at all the parts of it and how do we fix it when it's been
brought in from a dealership or from a patron at some point because it's so modern and technologically, you know, clean. Uh they just need to train the next group of people that can fix these types of cars. >> And also considering noise, I think you already mentioned those the rollup
doors, obviously the electronic. Uh they would make little noise and if any it's directed out towards Route 18. Am I >> correct? and council would they agree as a condition that there would be no understanding of any mechanical work being done in the parking lot only on on
site? >> Yep. Absolutely. So yeah, all mechanical work done interior. >> Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Mr. Deetsz, >> I'll play with this some more. >> Yeah. You going to propose any any other witness tonight? You got I can give you
10 minutes. >> Yeah. So, it might be good. It might be perfect just to uh finish up at least uh try and tie it together here. >> No problem. >> All right, sir. Please raise your right hand. >> Sure. >> Do you swear or affirm and tell the truth and nothing but the truth to help you God? >> I do.
>> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Uh Gerald McNe. >> Take it away. >> Thank you. Uh Mr. McNe, you are a member of the applicant. >> Yes. >> And uh the applicant owns the property.
>> I do. And it's your intention to open up the proposed business of the uh the technical uh training facility for EV vehicles. >> Yes. Okay. Um the board had uh professionals had submitted a letter that had a number of operational questions. I just want to take you
through them and provide that information to the board. Um and someone's probably going to have to refresh my memory as to the operational questions that you had asked. So I apologize if I miss them. Um but let's just confirm for the chair. I know it's just a condition we agreed to, but there there's going to be no repairs done to
any vehicles on the exterior of the building. Yeah, there'll be no repairs outside the the the facility itself in the parking lot. And and I could clarify, they're not going to be damaged vehicles. These will be vehicles that would essentially be guinea pigs. And what I mean by a guinea pig, it's a
fully assembled vehicle. And these guys will actually be going through the motions on how to calibrate a vehicle, how to pull a battery out, how to pull a panel off, it's not a vehicle that's damaged other than maybe the estimating bay, uh,
and that's yet to be determined, but even in the estimating bay itself there, and I could clarify the three rooms, the estimating bay itself there, it's just a vehicle. And basically, we could just determine, okay, we're going to replace this panel, repair this panel, and paint
this panel, and they'll be needed to write a proper estimate on that. So, it's not going to be like I I currently own a a facility that we fix vehicles. It's just completely opposite. Um,
and I I provided the board with a summary earlier, but the typical business hours right now are approximated to be 8 am to 5:00 p.m. That's that's going to be typical of the business. >> Yes. >> And it's Monday through Friday. >> Monday through Friday. Okay. And we uh provided the board before with confirmation that at any given time the
most number of students that's going to be on site is 18. >> Yes. Uh, essentially what's going to happen is there's no guarantees that they will hold three training sessions at the same time. You'll have a bonding and riveting room. You're going to have a calibration room. And you're going to have an estimating room. Doesn't
necessarily mean that they're going to be able to host three seminars at the same or three classes at the same time. But yes, it's it's going to be a it's it's always limited to a maximum number of students. So they could um
um how was I going to say >> there's there's a benefit right to the >> there's a benefit that that they're going to actually walk out of there learn and not get lost with with 30 other people. >> Is there any uh plan or I don't think there's anything definitive but there's opportunity for car pooling or busing or
anything like that because you and I have discussed that. So just bore that in. So, so essentially what's going to happen, it's we would consider it the east coast training center. Um, you know, um, let's say Rivian and Lucid have facilities around the country. Not many. They don't have any on the east
coast. Atlanta is the closest one. In fact, I currently have two students leaving or two two technicians leaving Sunday. One going to California and one going to Atlanta. So, essentially, this would be the East Coast training center. Most of these guys would probably be on
the east coast, really from Texas on over, depending on what seminar or what class is being held. Um, they would come in, they would normally have a a hotel. They'd stay at the hotel. They'd all be at the same hotel because there's not many, so you know, it's good proximity
to some of the hotels. And they would either carpool in or they would Uber in. Not many are going to actually get a a rental car. Some do. Uh, and just an example, the two that I have going now, getting a rental car, one's just going to Uber because it's close enough to the
airport to them or really the hotel. So, the car pooling is definitely an option. Um, and if everybody came individually and everybody drove, I think that's going to be a rare rare scenario that's going to take place. >> And even then, we have enough car enough
parking spaces to to meet the maximum number of people on site in a given time. >> Yes. Okay. um deliveries. You're not anticipating any kind of deliveries to the site other than maybe the vehicles being driven onto the site by the manufacturer. U but there's no largecale
truck deliveries other than a UPS or a FedEx truck delivering packages. Correct. >> Right. There's going to be no deliveries because again there'll be no parts, no no service. It's it's whatever equipment that's going to be in the building. That would be the only time it's going to be delivered. And it's not going to be if
if we had a delivery of equipment, it's going to be there. It's going to be there permanently. >> In terms of uh trash, you're not going to be disposing of any parts or anything like that. It's really just going to be almost like an office space. Uh trash, waste bins, and things like that. Correct. >> Right. So, there is a dumpster bin
already on the site itself there. Um honestly, I think if the township supplied uh a trash, a garbage u can and recyclables, that would all the facility would actually need. But worst case scenario, if if I need to u partner with
a trash disposal company for, you know, um you recyclables and trash, that's easily done. And it'd be very very minimal. Um the types of vehicles, obviously, we know that they're EVs. Um EVs come in couple different shapes and
sizes, I guess I'll say. Um you're planning on things like a Lucid uh private vehicle sedan. Rivian has some regular size SUVs, pickup trucks. Uh Rivian also makes some delivery vans. Uh something like what the Amazon uh
vehicles uh or what Amazon now has. Those are the typical type of vehicles that you're looking at bringing in and out of the facility. Is that correct? >> Yeah. Sedans, pickup trucks, SUVs in the in a in the smaller when you say the Amazon. >> Yeah. I'm Yeah. Let me clarify. We're
not talking about >> Yeah. They're they're actually Rivian vans. Um, they're called EDV700s, EVD 500s. Um, so the 500's a little bit smaller, this the 700's a little bit larger, but yeah, I I would only see maybe one or two on site, if that, and
the larger vehicles, and really my my thought process is is there's probably going to be maybe a total of four vehicles that will be in the vehicle at any given time. And those vehicles will be kept in the in the building, correct? >> Yeah. It's not going to be a revolving door where essentially the vehicles are
going to come in and they're going to say these guys are coming in for four to five days. They're going to spend half the time in the classrooms and the other half the times hands-on, you know, going through the motions with the instructors so that you they're properly trained um in order to to work
on the vehicles itself there. And I I believe Miss Gomez asked a question about chargers. Apart from the charger that's in the parking lot that's just going to be used for vehicles parking in the parking lot. Um is there are there any chargers proposed in or near the facility to charge those vehicles or
will you need to charge them or anything like that? Are they what kind of charger if there is a charger? All right. So obviously the the town had requested one outdoor EV charger. It's um if you if you went to a Wawa or something they have an EV charger. These are on a much
smaller scale. It's essentially it's a pole. It's about five foot. It has two cables off of it. Honestly, it's not even going to be visible from the road there. We also have EV chargers inside the V the uh the facility. You have four
in the big room. Um and you actually have one in a smaller room and then there'll be two on the outside of the room as part of the um the OE request that two on the outside with a um a disconnect so they
could turn it on and off as needed. >> So it's a requirement for the manufacturers that you're working with. >> Yes, they'll be >> but they're not going to be accessible to the public. They're not going to be a charging station to the public. It's it's really just for those vehicles and that's their requirement from Rivian or Lucid or whatever the company is. and
and they'll be they they won't emit any there's no noise. It's there there's it's silent. It's literally silent. And those are smaller chargers. They're not other than the one outside that's about four or five feet tall. The other ones are are only about a foot tall by 6 in.
Okay. >> And they hang right on the wall. Something that that you would kind of put on at your own your home >> if you were going to if you had an EV EV vehicle at your house. >> Okay. U I think I I tried to hit on everything in the reports, but if anybody has questions, obviously we're we're happy.
I don't have any further questions. >> Thank you, Mr. Mr. McCarthy. >> Thank you. U two very quick questions. Um just we were looking just for some clarification. Who actually owns the vehicles that are going to be coming in? Is it um customer-owned vehicles or private property or is it coming from
the dealership? >> There'd be no dealerships because uh the EV companies are direct consumers. So they would be owned directly by the the the OEMs. >> Okay, perfect. Uh and then how are those vehicles going to be delivered? Are they going to be driven to the site? Are they going to come on some kind of flatbed?
Just what that was going to look like. >> So typically they're going to be driven because they are displays um you know and they do travel around with them. So they'll have ones that are that that would be driven. >> Okay, that's all I had. Thank you. >> So what?
>> I have no questions. >> Thank you counselor. Anything? >> Nothing. Mr. Chairman, >> I'm going down to my left again. Miss >> No questions. >> No questions. >> Uh the only people are going to be in that building are those that are attending these uh classes and they're
done. I I don't come by and ask you if I can come get a job or if I can come to one of these classes. >> No, it's it's strictly invitation only. Um, essentially these are certified shops around the country that in order
to be a certified facility, one of the requirements is actually training, hands-on training. So, typically there are three weeks. So, there's three separate classes. However, you would need like say for me, I need three
separate employees, maybe four to five employees that would have to attend these classes. one employee or two employees may attend a one-week class because that's all they're doing as far as, you know, parts. Um, the estimator would probably be a oneweek class. Then
you'd have a structural technician, you'd have a mechanical um technician, and then you would have essentially what they'd call a disassembler reassembler. So each one of these in the three main ones that I just mentioned, they would have to come for each one of those
classes. So one person would have to do all three classes and then the admin team would would probably be consist of just one week themselves. >> It was more concerned for the neighborhood. This is not a place where I can come and say, "Hey, can I try your
school?" Absolutely. Not welcoming people off the street. >> It's not open to the general public. >> I can't take my car there to get it fixed. >> Absolutely not. >> Okay. Very good. Yeah. >> Um, anything else you you have, Susan? >> I I think we pretty much covered all >> just want to address that the there's a
memo from Fire District 3 dated uh for December. Uh, I'm assuming you're aware of that. No. Okay, I'll give you this one if you want. And then, uh, Miss Tatton did speak something about trees, hoping that we wouldn't have to remove
them, but Mr. Lvalo, the arbiter uh the arborist here in the township has authored a memo also uh I guess to you sir um dated uh October 15th. So you would obviously comply if any of that was necessary. >> Yeah, tree removal permit. It's if we're
removing anything, we'll follow up with the tree removal permit. >> Okay. Yes. >> So we we have two other witnesses that will come back. >> You have a planner, I'm assuming it's coming back. >> A planner and a a traffic engineer. traffic engineer will be brief unless the board has any questions. >> All right. Uh I appreciate uh your
cooperation tonight. Uh I know we had limited time and we still have another application to get to. So >> no, we appreciate the time. >> I'm sorry. >> Yeah, I'm going to but uh I want want to make sure they don't have anything direct. >> Nothing else on direct for for these three witnesses. >> Right. We'll go to the public portion on
this. This is 12- 2025Z. This is T properties physical locations 475 Marbor Road. It's a training facility for electronic vehicle repair. If anyone wants to be heard on this matter, please raise your hand. I see none. I'm going to close the
public portion. Councelor, the next I think we agreed was uh January 8th. >> January 8th works. Are we >> no further notice or do we need to renotice because of the the new year >> requiring? Okay. No, I just want to be on the same page. That's all
>> it's with. >> Okay. >> So, January 8th with new notice, >> right? Then don't forget that is reorg night. >> So, we'll have uh matters before >> understood is we'll hope to be brief. >> Okay. >> Get it get reached.
>> But yeah, understood. >> For those watching at home, this this matter T properties uh 475 Marbor Road. This is a continued application to January 8th. There will be further notice. Thank you, sir, for appearing and councelor. Thank you. And >> thank you everyone. Thank you for your time. Thanks.
>> Enjoy the holidays. >> Carmen, are you okay? >> I am. >> Can we proceed? >> Yes. >> I just I have a quick question on ours. Um I'd like to not bring back witnesses again. Are we okay if the engineer and the architect do not return?
>> I think so. I think the only thing we were worried about with the the um storm water portion of it, I think we were just going to try to figure out how that was going to get correct realigned with DOT. So maybe maybe just the civil engineer on my end. >> I I would agree with that. >> I would guess if you can handle that
before I I guess what I'll say is we'll make a determination on our architect, but I'm assuming the board doesn't have any issue if we make a decision on the architect. >> I see none. >> So our risk, but okay. >> Yep. I see none, but your risk. >> Understood. Thank you.
>> Thank you very much. >> All right, we're going to go straight through. We have one more application for the evening. Uh >> okay, I'll just call it in 56- 2024Z. This is Oldbridge Chemical Zone SD3.
This is block 6303, lots 9 and11, physical location, old waterworks road, warehouse facility, chemical and allied products. Applicant proposes a minor subdivision lot line adjustment to cure an encroachment between lots 11 and nine
seeking major preliminary and final site plan with minor subdivision and devarance. Lawrence Calli Esquire representing sir. >> Mr. Chairman, members, nice to see everybody. Thank you for having us. for the record. Larry Cali on behalf of the applicant Oldbridge Chemicals LLC. Uh Mr. Chair, members, I don't think we're
going to take up too much of your time on direct testimony this evening. I realize that you've got a a quorum, but short of a fully constituted board, so we don't think we're going to seek a vote this evening, even should we uh conclude our matter, but we've got a relatively lean deck of witnesses, Mr. Chairman, considering our case really
does not have that many moving parts despite the potential public interest in our project. Uh relatively straightforward. So, what I'd like to do, Mr. chairman, if you would. Um, I'll go as fast as I reasonably can given the hour, but I'd like to frame what we hope to do here and who you're going to hear from shortly and then we can go from there with your pleasure, sir.
>> Go right ahead, sir. >> Thank you. So, the property, as you indicated, is uh it's 554 Waterworks Road. It's there's three lots that essentially comprise this assemblage. It's lots 9, 10, and 11 in block 6303. It's about 83 acres and change uh as comprised. We're within a redevelopment
plan area and the SD3 zoning district. And this project involves effectively a lot line adjustment. It's tantamount to a subdivision, but it's effectively a lot line adjustment. There are no new lots being created here. We're jogging existing lot lines of this property.
There are no new uses being proposed here. There are no enhancement to the existing uses being proposed. And there is no development being proposed as part of this application before the board of adjustment. This is a lot line reconfiguration. our scrivener of record, our project engineer will testify shortly showing the board and
delineating the lot line adjustments and changes. There are some deltas, some lot areas going up, some going down. Primarily, it involves two things I'll say. One is um conforming to delineate delineated areas of environmentally constrained areas uh which is under
federal review for super fund sites, EPA review. Um, it's creating effectively access to our rear lot and a rear configuration of all the lots including eased areas and rightaway dedications that were part of the township redevelopment plan. Uh, and the deltas
are downward adjustment of about seven acres on one lot, a downward adjustment of less than one acre on another lot, and an upward adjustment of about five acres on the third lot. But we're starting with three lots. We're ending with three lots and no new development or construction or uses are proposed.
And and to the extent there might be a misunderstanding with not the board but perhaps members of the public that might think that there is some enhancement to the pre-existing use of the old chemicals on the property that there's some intensification to the operation change of operations or expansion of the
operations. There is not. There is absolutely no change. What brings us to the board of adjustment is sort of nuanced and in my 20 plus years I've never really seen this. This is the opposite of what is known as the raspberry case in a way which is lot area of a pre-existing non-conforming
lot and use uh is expanding and the township has determined that that is tantamount to an expansion of that pre-existing use on that lot. Um it's the inverse of the seminal raspberry case which was where the lot got smaller which was in fact an intensification.
But that's the nuance that brings us here for use variance relief. Uh you know less there be no misnomer that we are in fact expanding that use. We are not. That lot area is just incidentally getting bigger so we can adjust our lot lines. Mr. Chairman, um with that said,
we've got two project um witnesses that will qualify as experts shortly. Josh Weary from Dynamic Engineering. Josh is, as I indicated, the scrier of record from dynamic engineering. He'll walk the board through the plan, the lot line adjustment that I've sort of profered to you so far. And then our project planner, Christine Capone. I know Christine's a familiar face here on the
township as well. Um, notwithstanding the fact that I indicated the relief is relatively nuanced and hyper technical. It's variance relief nonetheless. So, we want to put that on the record for you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the board. We'll certainly answer all of your questions, any questions from the public. Uh but we're gonna we're going to proceed, you know, in a relatively um
expeditious route as this case probably warrants given there's limited moving parts, so to speak. >> Understood, sir. >> Thank you. So, our first one, Mr. Chairman, we like to call Josh Weary, our civil engineer. >> All righty, sir. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm, tell the truth, nothing but nothing but the
truth? I hope you got God. >> I do. Please state your name and bear your last for the record. >> Good evening, everyone. My name is Joshua Weiri, last name W I R Y. Take it away, counselor. >> Thank you. So, Josh, your professional background and experience in licensing for the benefit of the record, please.
>> Sure. So, I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey. I graduated from New Jersey Institute of Technology with a bachelor's of science and civil engineering. I'm a principal at Dynamic Engineering uh located in Chester, New Jersey. Testified before various boards throughout New Jersey,
and I have over 10 years of design experience. >> We'll accept his credentials. And just so those in the audience demand the testifying now as a professional engineer. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So Josh, you heard my profit to the board. You know, given the hour, I'm going to let you just get off to the races explaining to
the board existing and proposed conditions. I I know that you're going to ultimately mark an exhibit. When we get to that document, we'll just identify for the record and mark it when you get there. >> Sure. So to start, Mr. Cali, I would like to bring up our aerial map exhibit that was um submitted to the board. I
believe that's the the first PDF on that screen there. Perfect. So this exhibit is entitled Aerial Map Exhibit which will mark as A1 for the record. It's dated with today's date of December 4th, 2025 at a scale of
1 in equals 150 ft and north is to the top right corner of the page. So, as you can see, this is an aerial image of the surrounding area with the property uh lines outlined in yellow. And the site is located along Waterworks Road, which
runs along the top of the exhibit and consists of three lots within block uh 6303. And as Mr. Kelly mentioned, under existing conditions, there are three lots. And as part of the proposed subdivision, we are maintaining those uh
three lots. We are only proposing minor lot line adjustments which are largely due to either environmental factors or specific zoning requirements which we'll get into a little more detail shortly. And again, as Mr. Kelly mentioned, there's no construction improvements
proposed with this specific uh application. So, I'd like to just go through and run through each property individually. Uh starting with lot 10.11. That's the property located in the top right corner of the page. >> You happen to have a pointer? I
>> I think it would be helpful for uh those in the audience. >> Certainly. >> Thank you. >> Go ahead, sir. I'm sorry to interrupt. >> Yeah, no worries. Thank you very much. Um so, like I said, I'd like to start off with block um with with lot 10.11
again located in the top right corner of the page in the northeast uh corner. This property is located along Waterworks Road and contains the remains of the former CPS chemical facility, which is a designated super fund site.
And as such, the property is currently undergoing remediation efforts by the EPA, who formalized their cleanup um plan back in September of uh 2019. So, this specific property is located
within the waterworks road 2 redevelopment area that was also adopted by the township back in June of 2023. As for the property line adjustments, we're proposing a 30- foot wide rideway
dedication that's highlighted in blue along Waterworks Road. So this dedication uh that uh along this property was specifically listed as a requirement in the redevelopment plan uh for this property which is why we're proposing it here today. Um so this
dedication reduces the lot area minimally from 24.86 acres to 24.13 acres which is a reduction of 0.73 uh acres for the record. And this reduction still complies with the
redevelopment plan's minimum lot size of uh 20 acres. So we're also proposing a 40 foot wide easement as depicted in red as you can see runs through the middle of the property and that will be used utilized
to provide future access to lot 9.11 at the rear of the site. As mentioned in the township's review letter, the easement crosses portions of wetlands as well as flood hazard area that impacts lot 10.11. Mr. Kelly, I I
believe it's important to note that a lot of planning has gone into uh that access as well as the access easement. Um and with that a lot of coordination with the NGP. Um so our office as well as the applicants environmental team
which comprises of several professionals as well has met with the NJDP multiple times on this access. Uh we most recently met with them last month to discuss uh the anticipated wetlands and flood hazard area impacts and our office is currently working with the applicant
to prepare the necessary applications and submission documents for those permits as well. So that is uh lot 10.11. I'd like to move down the page to lot 9.11. As you can see at the rear of the property,
this is the largest of the three lots we're here to discuss tonight. Located to the south and as you can see is uh primarily wooded. This property is also located within the Waterworks Road 2 redevelopment area and as you can see
does not have direct access to waterworks road um at the top of the page. So the reason we are proposing um the access easement through lot uh lot 10 is to provide uh access to lot 9.11 at the
rear. As for the property line adjustments, we're also proposing a 60 foot wide rightway dedication along the western portion of the property line to Jake Brown Road West. And again, this specific dedication was listed as a
requirement for this property in the redevelopment plan we mentioned earlier. The dedication itself is approximately 2.09 acres. And in addition to the dedication, we're also transferring
approximately 5.74 acres located in the northwest corner of the top left uh corner of lot 9.11. And we will be transferring this um area to the proposed lot 11.11. So overall, we're reducing the lot 9.11
area from 51.38 acres to 43.54 acres, which is a reduction of 7.84 acres and again still complies with the redevelopment plans minimum lot size
requirement of 20 acres. So Mr. Cali. Moving on to the third and final property is lot 11.11 located in the top left corner. Um again this is also located along
waterworks road and includes the old bridge minerals facility which is also included in the super fun site we mentioned earlier and has ongoing remediation of the property including removal of contaminated soil. Lot 11.11 is actually located outside of
the redevelopment area and is within the special development 3 or the SD3 zone. And while the facility is technically non-conforming or non-permitted use within the zone, it has been operating in this location for for many years.
And again, for the record, uh as Mr. Kelly mentioned, we are not proposing to increase uh their current operations and no construction is proposed with this application. As Mr. Kelly mentioned, um the main reason why we're transferring this area
from lot 9.11 to 11.11 is so that all of the environmentally sensitive areas that require remediation and cleanup uh to be completely located on lot 11.11. We we want to need the lot 9 property to be
completely clean and that is the main reason for the lot line adjustment in this application. I want to point out um for our planner to discuss in a little bit more detail shortly is there is an existing variance uh for this property. A landscape area
ratio of 0.132 is provided under existing conditions whereas a minimum of 0.4 is required. Again, this is an existing condition and we're actually improving this slightly
um to increase that condition to 0.152 um just by increasing the overall area of the property with the proposed uh subdivision. And then lastly, with this application, we're proposing a second uh access
easement. It's highlighted in red on the plan and that's located uh in the vicinity of the lot line adjustment that we're proposing and that will allow for the future development of lot 9.11 in the rear to utilize this portion of area
for for circulation. Um, it was mentioned in the township's review letter to modify that easement to be an an access and a utility easement uh based on the review of the uh separate application for the site plans and our
office review that and and we certainly agree with their recommendation and we can modify any uh required easement agreements or or u subdivision plans to note that accordingly as well. And Mr. Kelly, I believe that wraps up my direct testimony.
>> Yes, sir, it does. Mr. Chairman, Mr. We Mr. We are available to any questions of your board and and your consultants that you may have. >> Thank you, Mr. Kelly. Mr. McCarthy. >> Sure. Thank you. Uh, two just very quick questions. Um, just number one, if there's just to make sure there's no objections to any of the comments we had
regarding the plan revisions for the minor subdivision. >> That's correct. We have no objections. >> Okay. And then the second one just um trying to figure out how the subdivision is going to be filed whether by deed or platt. We would recommend by platt but just wanted to clarify. Sorry just looking to see how the subdivision will
be filed whether it's by deed or platt. >> We agree we will uh record by by platt as recommended. >> That's all I have. Thank you. >> Mr. >> So I I don't know if my question is to the engineer or the attorney. Uh but I
think for the benefit of the board as well as for the crowd that is here, right? What was the reason for the subdivision? Can you just elaborate on that? Why why why are you in front of the board for the subdivision so that
the residents understand why you are in front of the zoning board versus the planning board? especially because um I've been getting numerous emails and questions regarding the zoning and um I I just want all of them
to hear because this is just the first part and then there is a planning board hearing as well. So I think it's it's better that you uh testify or you comment on it. >> Certainly and I'm glad to do that. So um
it's interesting Applications for subdivision relief more often than not go to the planning board for relief. That's where jurisdiction normally lies under the title 40. Here we're at the board of adjustment for subdivision relief. And it's a relatively singular reason why that is.
It's because of the pre-existing non-conforming use on Mr. Weir's identifying it plan north of that property, the old bridge mineral site right there. That's a pre-existing non-conforming use, which means that that use has been implemented and in
place predating the code provisions which have prohibited that principal use from operating there. It's grandfathered in to use layman's terms. That use is allowed to continue perpetually under state law, the case law and the statutory law. But if a pre-existing
non-conforming use is sought to be expanded and expansion has been meant and held by the courts to mean things like even modernization and aesthetic improvements under you know the seminal case Burbridge uh for that D2 relief. Um enhancements to a D2 uh are tantamount
to a use variance relief. That's what gives original jurisdiction to the zoning board of adjustment in that case. Here it's been determined by the township that there is D2 relief because that pre-existing non-conforming use in lot is now being increased in lot area.
No changes to the operation, no improvements to the site, no changes to the use, no expansion of that use, and no new development proposed. However, the lot line adjustment that we're creating, which is an upward adjusted delta of a few acres on that lot, was enough to trigger D2 relief. And and
when I say D2, for the members of the public, it's it's NJ SA405-7D2. It's subsection D2 of section 70 of title 40, the municipal land use law. Um that gives the board of adjustment jurisdiction to hear that as opposed to this review being consolidated with the
planning board on a site plan review. It is not because we are expanding the use or changing the use in any way of that facility. We are not we are not asking the board for that type of relief. and should we leave here tonight and decide tomorrow we want to change that use. We've got to come back to this board to do that. So, it's not as though we're
getting a free pass here from the board saying this is only a subdivision and then tomorrow we install a new structure or modify business operations. That would be a violation of the code. That would be a violation of state law and that's not the relief we're seeking here from the board. The relief we're seeking
is a modification to what is otherwise effectively invisible lot boundary lines that are innocuous to human view and you would only identify it by looking at deed paperwork or a plat that's going to be recorded here. That's what brings us to this board for that relief. The incidental bulk relief that Mr. Weary
testified to is actually an improved situation uh for the landscape area non-conformance. It's a design issue. Uh it's one that exists today and it's actually being improved by the proposed scenario nominally nominally. However, it's being improved. I don't know if that
>> right. And um let me uh let me explain it a little more because I know Mr. Kelly was uh very technical uh but for uh most of the residences especially because of the emails that I have been reading. So um Moren can you do me a
favor? Um in the USP there is historic aerials. There are two of them. What I want to show you guys is um I tried to pull up the historic uh aerials which are available. This use has existed or this
uh old bridge chemicals was started between 1963 and 1969 way before the township wrote wrote its zoning ordinance or even before zoning came into New Jersey. Though the plant
has existed um I have received numerous emails about uh contamination the super fund site there has been significant monitoring and it was first the state level monitoring because it was a super
fund site um but later on uh US EPA took over and when they took over they came up with two action plans there was an interim action because there was some groundwater contamination at that point and I'm talking about the
19 probably 1993 and um so they capped some of those um areas they started monitoring it for uh you know purity or whatever that be then
the next step was the final capping and um from what I understand in is in 2023 EP EPA conducted a public hearing to get in public input on um the strategies to cap it. They have already stopped the
use where really the contamination was on the CPS Madison site. There is nothing that is oper in operation at this point. uh they are contemplating between cleaning up the zinc or whatever
debris was left and then again capping it further so that it's sealed and it's remediated. The final action if I'm not mistaken and Josh you can uh correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's supposed to come out in June of 2026
but Oldbridge does not get water from there. We buy our water from Middle Sex County. So the water that is coming is actually not from this area or the groundwater contam contamination that
everybody has been talking about. There is a lawsuit between Perthamboy and uh Oldbridge Chemicals if I'm not mistaken and the owners are here they can correct me if I'm wrong but it had impacted the wells of Perthamboy.
um it did not affect anything in Oldbridge. They are working together. Um so there was a lot of misinformation that was being uh circulated. Typically I wouldn't have spoken about it. um uh
unless it was a site plan application. But I think it's critical because there were some people accusing or questioning my zoning determination as to uh if it is a super fund site and you are allowing this subdivision, isn't that an
expansion and why is it not a use variance? That's not how it works. The only reason and um in all fairness I was the one who asked for the subdivision long ago when uh Mr. Clauser and I met for the first time because
there were some structures that were on this bigger property. So I thought it was best to just seclude it and separate it out. So it was my idea to ask for a subdivision so that when I work on a redevelopment plan it is a much cleaner
project. The HP warehousing site itself does not have contamination and the engineer can speak about it if you have more questions. But uh again my the reason I asked why this subdivision why
you in front of the zoning board it was because it would be cleaner to have whatever belongs to Oldbridge Chemicals. I don't want to use Oldbridge Chemicals as the name. I know it's called Oldbridge Minerals now, right? Um so old branch mineral site so that everything
that is accessory to the manufacturing unit goes onto their property. There is no expansion. We not reviewing anything for the expansion of use. The other the other reason I would hate to split an
application like that between a zoning board or a planning board, but the only reason they had to be here was because of the way the township's ordinance defines existing non-conforming uses. um it says that if the lot area increases
like if you think about it technically if the lot area is reducing I can understand intensification but when the lot area is increasing it's really not an intensification of that use because you heard me before on other applications where I'm saying it's a
smaller lot and you're overutilizing in this case the lot is increasing but um I have to stick to the ordinances We did have numerous conversations with Mr. Cali uh Mr. Joe Sardelloo and at
that time Mr. Dasty to come up to see if we could have kept the entire application with the planning board. Unfortunately the ordinance does not allow me to do that and that's the only reason why they are here. So it's a simple lot line that is changing um and
it's literally on paper that it changes so that all the accessory structures go on to the chemical um manufacturing unit side. I would refrain I encourage you to ask questions because the whole team is here but I would refrain you from asking
questions that are site plan related because there is a separate hearing for that. um the zoning board is not privy to the site plan application. So I don't want them to get distracted in the site plan details. Please ask questions
related to the subdivision. You can ask questions related to um the contamination because the team is here. They they have more knowledge. Um but otherwise I don't have a question for the engineer.
Uh and yes, it's on the screen. I'm sorry I got distracted. Uh, can you zoom in a little bit? >> Council, should we mark this as a board exhibit? >> Mark it as B1 for the record. >> Thank you. >> Just for the record, this is the 1963 historic image.
>> 63. Thank you. >> Yes, counselor. >> 1963 historic 1963 historic image marked as B1. >> So,
You see this is the area. You don't see it here. >> I'm sorry. [laughter] Chat, >> can I get >> Okay. >> So, you'll see 1963 the the um manufacturing unit didn't
exist. >> There you go. >> Thank you. That's easy. So, it didn't exist before. Can you move to the 69? >> Mark that as exhibit B2. >> Thank you. Look at this develop. Look at this
development here. So between 1963 and 1969 is when this came in and you look at the area where your houses are. There was nothing here back here. It was only this industry.
And uh Christine, you can thank me later, but uh just to give you a brief view, 1970 zoning map. >> Mark, this is exhibit B3. Let me orient myself. Okay, this is
exactly where the site is located. You see the M3 zone, the SD zone, right? This entire area was zoned industrial. And this is a zoning map of the 1970s,
right? Even where your homes currently are, this area was all deemed industrial. It was it remained industrial for the longest time. And if some of you may recall after you bought the homes, there
were some homeowners who came and applied for zoning permits to put their decks and patios and you were denied because you were in the industrial zone. you were in the EDO3 zone and we wanted
to save your time as well as the board's time for from coming back because if you're in the industrial zone, a deck or a patio is not permitted accessory use. So, you would have to come back to the zoning board. So, that's why the council
decided to reszone just the single family homes into a residential zone. So the residential zone has come up in the last 2 years. I was the one who reszoned it. But originally the town always had
this entire area, the area around here as industrial. And it's quite typical. If you go across the border like Bordon Town Road, if you see across the municipal boundary in Seville, it's all industrial zone. And it's very typical
for a town when you are at the municipal boundaries you will see industries because that's where the county road runs. That's where you get connection to the highways. So Seville has its industries in that area. So does
Oldbridge have so just to give you a zoning background and I um and I'm doing this only because there were so many questions. It is physically not possible for me to respond to every email. But it's not that your questions were being
ignored. It's just that I was waiting for a forum to speak. I had spoken to Mr. Cali that uh I will make a presentation. I will talk about uh zoning. So uh this is a little background um and you can take it from
there. >> Very helpful, very explanatory and you know again we can't reiterate enough. It's hyper technical and nuance which brings us here, Mr. Chairman, >> excuse me. Thank you. >> Thank you. It's hyper techchnical and nuance which brings us to this board as
opposed to being at the planning board where all of this effectively is a site plan review with a subdivision component. Mr. Chairman, and and again, there are no proposed aspects of development here. And I would say that not just given the hour of the night, but but once Mr. Chairman, you and your deis of fellow members are are through
with cross-examining Mr. weary. Perhaps we can proceed to our planning witness before it's opened up to questions of the public because I could see this perhaps going down a rabbit hole of inquiries that are a little beyond the purview of his testimony and also the scope of our relief here. >> Forunately, I [clears throat] don't think I'm going to allow that only
because of the hour of the night. >> Okay. >> So, we're at 10:19 right now. We have a hard stop at 10:30. It's probably going to go beyond that because I have to entertain the public's questions as well as we haven't even asked the board if they have anything. So, I I would say no
to another witness tonight only because time's going to prohibit it. >> I understand, sir. Thank you. >> Uh questions of this witness on my left. >> No questions. Ver answer them all. >> Okay. >> No. Thank you, Mr. Scott. >> Mr. Rizzo, counselor. None,
>> Mr. Chairman. Thank you. If I were to ask you this question and and you could simply just explain it stepping away from your technical knowledge, there's three lots you're talking about, right? And what is a lot? A lot is a
determination of a land area by boundary, invisible boundary. Correct? Just like a person's home. >> All right? And there's three of them that we're talking about tonight. And we're talking about moving a lot line.
>> Is the total area going to expand by moving the lot line? >> It's a good question. >> No. >> Okay. Is it going to diminish? >> It would only diminish by the dedications that we're we're providing to the township, >> but lot 9, 10, and 11, one may be bigger
than the other, but no one's going outside where it's at. >> Correct. That's correct. >> So, it's kind of like your own home. >> Yes. You could probably get a subdivision to build another home, but the lot doesn't get any bigger. Whatever land you have, you have. >> It is what it is. Yes.
>> If I were if this were granted and it was granted tonight and you affected it next week and I came to see an overview, would I see anything different on the property? >> No, you would. >> Nothing at all? No. >> Only on a survey would would I read a
lot. So, nothing is going to be taken down. >> Correct. >> Nothing is going to be put up. Correct. >> We're not removing fences. We're not changing anything. We have invisible lines that we're moving. >> Invisible lines. No improvements. >> Okay.
I don't know. I'm going to uh open this to the public. Uh I don't know. Again, we have to agree that we can't put another witness under this. These people have been waiting all night and and I want to hear from them and I would like to do that, but uh unfortunately we're just out of time tonight. Uh, you did
hear Miss San explain it as best as can be. I'm trying to put it into terms that we all can understand. I know from the picture that your homes are I guess they were a little to the would it be southeast? >> Yeah. >> Uh, and I know that's why you're here.
So, I'm going to open the public portion, but I'd like it to be somewhat controlled. Please don't repeat uh what someone else has said. Obviously, you have concerns. Get to your concern. Bearing in mind what you were told tonight, we can't guess something a year
from now or five years from now. I don't know about that. We are only dealing with this one application to move some invisible lines on the property that they already own. All right. This is uh 56 2024Z. I'm going to open up the
public portion. Please raise your hand and I'll recognize you. We'll try and get in as many as we can. Sir on the aisle right there. Please come forward. Again, this is a quasi judicial hearing. Therefore, you have to be put under oath. >> Sir, please raise your right hand. >> Yes. >> Do you swear or affirm to tell truth
nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Sure. Um, good evening everyone. This is Kiran Wenason. Uh, I'm a resident of Wbridge. >> Can you please just spell your last name, please? >> Sure. Uh, Kiran, first name K I R A Y N.
Last name is V E N K A T E S A N >> and your address. >> All right. 58 Ibiscus Courtridge. >> Take it away. >> Thank you. Uh I'm here in front of the board as a resident and as well as I'm
an elected uh board of education school member and uh I have few questions here based on this presentation. And I don't know if you can go back to that uh PDF that was showed with the lot lines. >> Just speak a little bit slower for the stenographer please and >> okay >> so the board can fully understand what
you're saying. >> Sure. So if you can quickly go back to that uh PDF where we had the lot lines uh a few points I observed was uh one is great you want to consolidate all the impacted areas or the chemical areas mineral areas whatsoever into one lot.
That is one of the objectives which is good. uh but also I observed that uh we are doing this to build a uh a a way to enter into the third property right >> what's I didn't understand it
>> we access road we are trying to do this realignment or the resoning to also facilitate a access road into the third property the 9.11 I think right >> yeah that's what we heard >> so that >> and the dread line that says there right
shown there also indicated and it was testified that we need access into the third lot >> ease proposing an access easement through lot 10 >> easement >> so if it was only adjusting the property lines to just consolidate the active
area the super fund site whatsoever but why do you want access into the third site and if you look at the third bottom site it is 9.11 whatever the bigger section of the area Look how beautiful that looks. Look at the residents and the families that are living there.
Imagine what is going to happen once you put an access road into that. Yes, today we are talking only about the zoning. So, I'm going to keep my comments only for zoning. But imagine what these residents about 255 homes there paying about 20,000 as tax moneyies to this uh
district times uh 255 you're going to have about $5 million being put into the district. These families have come in to old bridge in the last 3 years with a dream in mind, right? For all that old bridge is going to offer. So imagine if you put access road into that today and
approve it, what's going to happen in the future? I don't know. We don't know because that is part of the planning board, right? So I would like to you know uh put this forth with the board to assess clearly why you need access road if it is only about adjusting the
property lines. Thank you. >> [applause] >> and I'm going to take care of it. So, one, I understand that everybody here is they this is an emotional issue. You're very concerned, but again, this is a quasi judicial forum. I know you guys
want to clap. I know you guys may want to cheer. I know you guys may want to yell in the stands, but I need you all to just maintain a level of respect in decorum. There could be no clapping. And with respect, there was a comment about taxes. The board is not permitted to consider any potential tax impact on any
prospective application. That would be an unlawful consideration. So just to be perfectly clear, that is not something that's valid. Um with respect to the application that is before this board, it is again for all intents and purposes a lot line adjustment u which does require an expansion of existing
non-conforming use. So while I understand the public has a lot of concern, I would just ask that the testimony and comments be focused on the application that is before the board, not any application or interest or testimony that may or not may not be more relevant for a pending application for the planning board. So with that,
Mr. Chairman, >> next person wants to speak, sir, against the wall in the back. >> Well, I can answer that for Mr. Weary. Um, the sub, >> excuse me, >> the subdivision and the access easement
are two completely distinct things. An access easement is a private non-possessory interest in land. It has little to nothing to do with the subdivision, but for the fact that Mr. Wur plotted it on his subdivision plan that's before this board. There is no relief required from this board in
connection with an access easement through lots controlled by private parropy owners to another lot to the rear lot nine. There is no variance being sought for that. There is no site plan component being sought for that. There is no subdivision component being sought for that. It's an access easement through private property. It could be
granted completely irrespective of board review. It's a private property agreement. There was a lot of statement in that question. I don't know what to call from the question, but I believe that should have answered it. >> Well, you got you can't you cannot speak
from the audience. You have to come forward, be sworn. >> Mr. Chairman, while we're waiting for the next member of the public, I just to tack on to what Mr. Varga indicated, which is I'm not certain members of the public, you know, are fully familiar with the process, but the questions really need to be linked to the direct
testimony that was provided. And and I don't want to be the guy who has to jump in constantly. I I'm trying to give enough leeway to members of our public who are who are lay witnesses um and lay individuals that are not part of this process on a regular basis. But I ask that the board be mindful of the fact that when the questions start going
astray for purposes of the application's efficiency and the time we keep it on the rails. I >> I fully understand that and I did try to instruct them to keep their questions as to the testimony. >> I know sir. Thank you. >> Go ahead ma'am. Ma'am, >> I just ask for sorry.
>> Swear. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? >> Yes. >> Please state your name as your last for the record. >> Sona Sajdev. S I L O N A. >> I'm so sorry. I don't type that fast. >> S I L O N A
>> S S A C H D E V >> from Gaza Drive. >> Seven Gaznagia Drive. I just asked in simple words. >> Hold on. >> I'm sorry.
I'm not prepared. I just as you see, we are very emotional and we feel deceived because it doesn't make a difference if you said that it was already that zone. It doesn't help us. If you open that zone for us to live in, you should
protect us. So, I just want to understand in simple words, how does it affect my house over there? It doesn't whatsoever. >> If it's going to uh danger my kids when that opens, it is a concern. >> That issue has not even been proposed by
the applicant. They're changing a lot line. Ma'am, they're not doing anything other than that. >> It means >> what's there is there's in that yellow whatever bracket is my house is there.
>> No, I understand. Their property is still going >> their property is still going to be there in the same size. Nothing is changing. It's not going away. It's not going to change. They're changing the interior size of the lots.
They're not getting any bigger or any smaller in total. So, nothing is changing. >> Nothing is changing. >> It's not going away. If that's what you're hoping for, they own the land. affect my house directly. It's not going to affect it. Like you're not going to
have any opening to my community. It's not going to affect. That's what you're saying. >> Is there That's not before the board. >> Okay. Okay. >> Your question is are they going to Would they be able to drive into your property? >> Yes. >> That's not before the board. And I I
don't know why they would do that, but no, that's not before the board. >> Okay. >> Thank you for your concern. Hi, my name is Catherine Lee. >> Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record.
>> Catherine, K A T H E R I N E. Last name Lee. L E E. >> And your address? >> 8 Hibiscus Court, Oldbridge, New Jersey. >> Take it away. Go ahead, ma'am. Thank you so much for your time tonight and for
everyone serving on the board. Um, so I work in media and entertainment. So everything that just was discussed here is very foreign to me. I just want to know layman's terms. I
don't need to know all the legal jargon. Why does that need to be reszoned? [snorts] If nothing is going to happen within, then why does it have to be changed? >> Nothing is being reszoned. What is happening is again, they're just
maneuvering the imaginary lines within the four corners that makes up their entire property because the intent was one, there's rightway dedication that is being proposed as Mr. Weary testified to, but secondly, >> sorry, sorry, say that again slowly. There are >> again I'm not like
>> I apologize and I'm probably talking too fast. >> Thank you so much for being patient with me. >> So right away are portions of and this is just for I heard from the members of the public and again you got to come up to the microphone but what the rightway is that is what could be a future roadway
>> and where is that? >> So those Mr. Weary can just point it out again. Of course. >> Sure. So, there's two proposed rideway dedications. So, the first is along Old Waterworks Road and the second is along the western
property line of lot 9.11. >> So, there are no roads right now, right? Cuz it's all green there where you're pointing at. And then on the norththeast where you were pointing at, you said there was a Jack Brown area and you say you want right of way, which means
>> so it creates the width of the roadway for what it can be expanded to. So if there's already an existing roadway, let's assume it's 20 ft for simple math and they give 10 ft of rightway, that means that roadway in the future can be expanded 10 more feet to make it more. >> So basically it's about roadways.
>> Can I can I help? We're not asking for an expansion. We're giving this is a dedication of private property to the municipality and it's in compliance with the redevelopment plan that is already in place in the township. So these are road these are dedications to the municipality. These are not proposed
areas of improvement. These are simply dedications from the property owner to the township pursuant to codified law that is already in place by way of what we're calling a redevelopment plan, which effectively is your your town ordinance as it applies to this portion of town and property.
>> So you're you're saying you're giving back to the town that roadway right of way and also in that area where you pointed which is somewhere southwest right where the greenery is. So, does that mean that area as a right of way
has a potential for a road to be built? >> That means the township could do whatever they want with that area once it is dedicated to them as a fee owner of that property. It is no longer under our control nor our discretion nor our determination as to what would happen at that point.
>> So, right now that area in yellow boundaries is not owned by the town yet. >> No, not yet. It is areas to be dedicated pursuant to requirements of municipal code. >> So it's going to be rededicated and
you're rededicating this area. >> And why is that? I just sorry I I need to know why. Like >> so when you when you adopt a redevelopment plan, there are certain provisions in it. And the townships townships do this all across the state. every any township you look at, every
any burrow you look at will have a some sort of redevelopment zone with a redevelopment plan. And the purpose of it is to cure or rehabilitate what may or may not be considered a blighted area. And this plan is almost like a a
design, an idea of what can the town do to make this to revitalize it. So in this plan, it calls for a right-of-way dedication along that portion as the applicant has testified to. So the township came up with this idea when
they had a public hearing whenever this plan was adopted. I don't know off the top of my head. And now the applicant is voluntarily accomplishing the goal of the redevelopment plan and dedicating the property to the township for the rightway purposes. Does that make sense?
Take it away. [snorts] to jump in. Just bear with me for a second. Moren, can you go to the planning board's web page? Redevelopment plan segment. >> I don't think your mic's on.
>> Thank you. Um, while you guys are pulling up the documents, so as >> 52, >> page 52, >> I think I'll >> What was your next question while they pull that up? Yeah, I was just looking
at the zoning and um as she has mentioned, this used to be industrial and now that our area has been reszoned or zoned as residential. Given the existence of our community, is
there a potential for, you know, our interests to be protected by possibly reassessing the zone around us? can't there's no any impact on taxes is not something that's before this board. >> I'm not talking about the tax yet, but
I'm just like in terms of like >> this is not an issue that's before the board. >> The industrial and the residential being together seems very incompatible. >> Mhm. >> Um kind of like would you live in an
area right where a chemical plant is? you know, even owners to the owners, would you live right by a chemical plant now that we have an like a residential area zoned there? Um, and as a board that's supposed to be
protecting our interests, health, and safety, and all the risks, is there a potential that we could possibly >> reassess? The zoning board is here to listen to an application that's simply we are same homeowners as you. We probably all just live in
different locations. >> So that's not our function. But that's not our function by law. >> Our function by law is to listen applications brought before us and make determinations based on that to see if there should be a variance relief.
That's it. >> So >> the issues you're talking about, while they are important to you, I'm sure, and important to everyone here probably as well as us, have nothing to do with our determination. Am I correct, counselor? >> We just have to read, >> Mr. Chairman.
>> So, the board, they're looking to to make lot line changes on their property. That's all they're asking for. That's the only thing we can think about. >> And the thing that's shifting from the south to the north, they're doing that
because >> they want to keep all of the contaminated property on one parcel. >> Actually, more than >> Take it away. more than the contaminated property. They have accessory structures on the site. They're just trying to put
all the accessory structures on that particular lot and they're trying to clean up the back. To answer your question, because I know there will be other people having the same question. Uh the right of way dedication which the engineer was talking about is part of
our township's master plan. It has been the it has been the township's master plan for the for last 25 years. So in 2009 when the township wrote their circulation plan, there was plans to
connect Route 9 to Bordentown Road at the back. So if you look at this circulation plan and if it makes sense, sorry, if it makes sense to you, this is the warehousing property. This is Oldbridge
Chemicals. What you see in red, this is Route 9. This is Bordin Town Road. There has been a plan to connect Jake Brown Road going up north right right this
tagging along HP warehousing's property and then connecting connecting to Brown's road here. There is a plan to build this roadway in the future. I I don't know when that will happen but it
has been in the township's master plan. So to answer your question, there is going to be a roadway that runs through this so that it eases traffic and brings direct traffic onto Route 9 and vice versa. It takes traffic on to Bordon
Town Avenue so that people can go onto 18. But it has been in the township's master plan since 2009. There were certain modifications that were done owing to the environmental constraints
in 2021 way before Khavnian built the homes. So that's the answer to your question about the roadway. >> Okay, got it. So that's clear now. Thank you. >> Thank you, ma'am. >> Thank you, ma'am.
>> All right, sir. Okay, >> please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Ankit Modi. A N K I D. Last name M O 3 I
>> D T D T D T D T D T D T D T D T D T D T D S David I >> and your address? >> N H E Hester Circle Oldbridge N10 E Circle. >> Take it away. >> Okay, so I have a quick question
regarding the application. So basically applicants seeking the relief for the minimum landscape ratio variance. Why so? I mean they have a 83 acres of land and uh why can they meet that 40% of
like you know township requirement? >> Why applicant needs a variance for the landscape ratio? Township has ordinance for the 40% requirement. Correct. while applicant is only looking for the
0.15 or a 15%. >> So the >> Did I correct it correct? I believe that's what you said in the beginning. Uh I believe in a lot 11 you have it right now maybe a 13% and by combining uh the portion of lot 9 into lot 11 it
will become a 15%. >> That's correct. So the variance that we're seeking tonight regarding the landscape area ratio is in regards to lot 11 only. Um again as as previously mentioned it's an existing condition. It's an avariance that that it happens
today. We just so happened to make it um a little bit better by providing additional area to that property from lot 9. And that property line adjustment was determined as as Vita mentioned to provide all the accessory structures on
that property as well as a cleanup and and that's it. There isn't we're not providing any additional land than what needs to be um provided to lot 11 essentially. So I I understand that portion right basically now increasing the boundary line your imaginary boundary line right now technically that
lot 11 again I understand lot 9 lot 10 lot 11 they own by the mold rich minerals now technically lot lot 11 on piece of paper would be a 15 acres why can they still m why can they change it to the 20 acres and still comply with the 40 uh 40% of the landscape ordinance
requirement [clears throat] >> I'm not quite sure I understand the question councelor do just asking like you know more green space instead of like you know having a more concrete area. >> I think Mr. Modi is asking why don't we expand the size of lot 11 as part of our
subdivision to make this design variance go away. Uh and the reason is is well because we've decided these lot lines to accommodate as we've said several times now accommodate and mirror the super fun and environmentally contaminated area
and boundaries to locate the accessory structures and components there too all on lot 11 so that it effectively is its own home with these imaginary lines. If we had made this 50 lots you wouldn't know the difference tomorrow. This is three lots today. It's three lots tomorrow. We're talking about a whole lot of nothing here because the
condition that on paper requires bulk variance relief is not only a no change condition from today. One which is completely imperceptible, innocuous and not impactful to anybody. But if we did enhance it, which we are, you still wouldn't know the difference. The only
way you would know the difference is you're suggesting we modify an imaginary lot boundary line to alleviate and mitigate that relief. But again, it'd be invisible to the naked eye. That relief today is no different than it exists tomorrow. In fact, numerically, it
actually improves. >> The only Oh, sorry. Go ahead. So, the only benefit would be right, I would see a more green acre space, that would be the benefit. I mean as long as you still have to maintain the landscape ratio I won't see the any on a lot 11 right now
there is a like you know I would say uh 85% of the like you know area on the concrete pavement uh some kind of a structure there and then 15% would be the landscape so now increasing the landscape ratio I would see a more greenacre space or a more open space on lot 11
>> so yes by my eyes I can see it >> no numerically you would on paper you would see mathematically his numbers are different because we were dealing with a different lot area of square footage. So mathematically you would see it on paper. You would not see any difference observed in the field because we're not planting new green areas. All you're
doing is jogging the lot line further plan south as you're suggesting. >> Right. >> The only place it changes is on Mr. Weary's plan sheet, not in reality in the field. >> Yes. But on a plan south, I can see the green area, right? So you can keep those green area as basically your uh uh
landscape ratio or your uh you know green zone. There is a green area on the south. I'm not asking to the plant any more trees. There is already a trees on the south area. I'm just asking like you know increase your lot size and comply with the landscap variance.
>> Thank you. Uh second question regarding the setback variance. Uh I think they are also looking for the setback variance from uh they want to reduce the setback variance from u uh on the both the side. Is there
any reason to get a relief from the setback variance while the entire lot is yours? >> That is an existing nonconformity. >> That is an existing nonconformity. So they don't require new relief because they're not changing or increasing it. >> So any new future developments still
they have to meet the variance around the property. >> If they make that if they further encroach into that setback then they will require variances. They don't do anything. They don't need variances. >> Got it. Uh, last question regarding the
non-confirming use. Uh, you talked so many so much about the non-confirming use just for my understanding. So, do they have a non-confirming use allowed only on a lot 11 or all the lots 9, 10, 11? >> Well, we're not really talking about the
use here tonight. We talked about it in the context of the fact that it triggered what's called the D2 variance relief, but we're not going to get into operations and expansion. What you see existing out there today that predates the ordinance that that VINA was so helpful to bring up the code and the
enactment and the historic aerials, there are no changes to those conditions. >> The existing uses and conditions on the property that exist today in the field, they are remaining tomorrow. They are not located on lot 9. They are located on the what I'll call planned north lots
as you can see in that existing conditions area with the no change proposed. >> Again my question is very simple on piece of paper you have a non-confirming use on lot 11 or all the lots. My question is very simple. I'm just asking like you know where do you have a
non-confirming use non-confirming use chemicals where can you use it on all the lots lot 9 lot 10 lot 11 >> the the lots where it lawfully exists today it is not being expanded beyond those lot lines >> I I'm trying to understand or clarify
the question I think you're trying to ask um if the noncon existing nonconforming use is only going to be contained on lot 11 and the other two lots that are vacant are going to have
conforming uses. Is that the hidden question? >> Yes, that's my question and my question is right. Basically portion of now lot 9 is going to merge into lot 11. >> No by by definition it is not merging.
>> Uh so what is the definition? You transferring lot 9 to the lot portion of lot 9 to the lot 11. >> Yes. So let me let me jump in. I think the bigger piece let's let's talk about the bigger piece of uh property that
abuts you guys right a portion of it will be added to lot 11. Lot 11 is the one that contains the existing nonconforming use. What remains of the larger piece is going to be discussed at
the planning board meeting for site plan for the warehouse. The third lot is only included in the application because it provides access to the warehouse but there is no use discussed for that lot.
Um the warehouse use is a conforming use. So the existing nonconforming use is only going to be on lot lean which in your terms is enlarge or the portion of land from the warehouse is adding on to
old bridge chemicals. Did I explain it right? >> I yes you explained it very well. I understand it. Uh so that 5 acre of land from a lot 9 that they are transferring into the lot 11. Can they use the non-confirming use over
there? >> They're not expanding the use at all. And if you're talking about uh then can they So wait, there are existing accessory structures related to the
existing nonconforming use already. All they are doing is changing the lot line. If in future they want to expand in that 5 acre you're talking about if they want
to expand the use they have to come back to the zoning board. >> Okay. So >> tonight or uh based on the applications that are filed there is no such expansion proposed. The only change or
only thing they're asking for is the lot line adjustment. And I'm repeatedly saying this. I've written in emails too. It is the expansion of the nonconforming use is just a technicality on paper.
They are not proposing any change to the use. >> Portion of the portion of lot 9 is I believe then a non-confirming use that they built the construction or a structure over there. That has always been like that. Yeah. I'm just saying just I mean >> it has always been like that. They're
not proposing or adding anything. >> So portion of nine they already have a structural over there. They are that they are transferring into the lot 11. >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh last question like you know >> sir I've given you plenty of time. I think we're about to about 12 minutes.
>> Okay. Go ahead. >> Thank you though. >> Thank you. >> We appreciate it. All right, sir. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm? Tell the truth. Nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Arthleikbot. H A R D I K. B H A T.
>> I'm so sorry. Say >> h A R D I K. B H A T. >> And your address? >> 45 Dalia Lane. >> Take it away. Um, in terms of uh NJ approvals, has
have there been any uh approvals yet? When it comes to NJ, >> there's there's no approvals. We're currently working on the applications for the separate uh application, not this application tonight. >> So, this application does not have any approvals as right now.
>> It does not require any uh NJB approvals for this application tonight. on Miss Salon's comment about the drinking water. Um, our concern is not the water that we drink, it's the soil and air that we're going to breathe after this
change has occurred and there's a uh easement access way. Um EPA's own you you yourself said EPA's own uh September 2023 decision letter confirms contaminated risks including zinc lead
cadmamine uh volatile organic compounds and documented soil disturbance hazard uh within U1 footprint. >> Can you hear me better? >> Okay. So a lot line reconfiguration that
uh facilitates greater circulation storage or access within the zone increase the risk of disturbing contaminated soil. >> That is an issue for the EPA. It's not an issue before this board. Again, the only issue that this board is
considering is the lot line adjustment. Okay? >> And whether the lot line adjustment is appropriate. But this board >> it >> this board uh is under jurisdiction it is under jurisdiction under this for this board to to uh uh evaluate the
impact of public health and safety. Correct. >> The board evaluates this expansion of a non-conforming use pursuant to NJSA 405D-70D2 in the Coventry standards. And when they do that, they look at the use and the
planner hasn't had a chance to testify yet. And the planner will provide all the testimony. I'm assuming at the next hearing, which will answer all of these questions. The applicant has only presented the engineer and the testimony that has been pro provided so far is how these lot lines are going to be
adjusted. So, I just ask you to please focus in on what the lot line adjustments are, what your comments and testimony or questions are as to that. But in terms of the planning testimony, I'm gonna ask you to ver wait until Miss
Capone has an opportunity to be sworn qualified and testifies through the applicants chase cases, >> which is when >> next next time we schedule it for >> December 11th. >> December 11th. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> We'll announce it. We'll announce it
tonight. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yep. Thank you, >> sir. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Please state your name and bear your last for the record. >> Sure. My uh first name is Muhammad. M O
H A M D. Last name Si S A L E H. Um [clears throat] I live in 11 Habiscus Court. Uh I just recently moved here from the suburbs of Seattle. Um I know it's a long it's a long uh flight, but um you know this is all news to me. I just want to know, you know, as a as a
newer resident of this area, um, how this zoning will affect, uh, what measures will the township have in place to ensure the right of ways that are dedicated to them are do not reconnect to our development and not are prohibiting any sort of industrial vehicles, you know, on our streets or that can affect, you know, our
neighborhood. Is this will it? >> So, that's not a development that's before the this board right now. at the time that there is a site plan application >> uh for ex for the for that larger lot. I believe there's a warehouse application. That may be an appropriate question at
that time if there's going to be any construction vehicle circulation going through that residential neighborhood or there's going to be any emergency access going through that neighborhood. But that's not an issue before this board. >> The only issue before this board is the lot line adjustment. >> Okay. All right. Thank you.
>> Thank you, sir. Sir, please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? >> Nothing but truth. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. Uh, >> my name is Hari. H A R I. Last name is
Somas Kantan. S O M A S K A N T H an >> address. >> Um, I live in 10 while New Jersey. >> Take it away. Um, I I stand here tonight not as a resident, but as a neighbor,
parent, and someone who deeply care about the safety of our future community. The hearing before us may appear to be simple as lot land adjustment, but the reality is more serious. The property is tied directly to a CPS Madison industry
super fund site, a place where EPA is still actively monitoring and contamination overseeing the remediation. On December 10, 2024, US government at the urging of EPA regional administrator filed a civil complaint in the federal
coast against the world bridge mineral inca. This is not a routine action. The complaint explicitly states that Hazardia substances has been released or at the risk of being released which means it's an actively releasing and
contaminating the entire area creating an imminent and substantial endangerment to the public health and belfam. Those words carry weight. They mean there is a potential harm that none of us can ignore. Given the seriousness of this
finding which is only a year old and the fact that the legal case is now moving through the US District Court of New Jersey, I'm asking truly asking the board to pause. Please do not move forward with the decision on this lot line adjustment until the court issues a
ruling to act before that would be look away from the very real environmental and health concerns that could affect every family living near the site. So, I'm just going to stop you right there just so you're aware that the board has a statutory time frame that it is
required to act under law. And if it doesn't act within that statutory time frame, they get an automatic approval. So, the board can't delay while this case lingers in the courts for 15 years. The board has to act and has to act
timely. So, while I understand that there is a case and there are concerns, there's an application before the board and the board has to process it just like it would a shed variance. All right. >> I I'm asking you to consider it, not the delay the whole action. You can make the decision yourself, but consider all of
those things. Um, I have the uh the uh the court case that was filed. I could actually produce as a if you don't have the copy of it >> that has that wouldn't come into bearing on the board's decision, sir. >> Okay. Good. Good. And so the second
question I have is I know that you have a a red line over there. We're just wondering, you know, we talked about there is an access road. Can you explain why do we need an access road on the red lines?
>> Are we talking about down on the bottom >> and not on the bottom? I think that was explained by by council that it's dedication back to the township. >> But that was on the left side is a dedication to the council. Correct. >> I'm talking about the right side. There
is a red >> the center. >> Mr. We are looking at plan left. Um the bottom of lot uh 11.11. There's that red little line that I believe you testified to as to the circulation. Can you just please just explain why that access road is going through?
>> Correct. It's an access easement, not necessarily an access road. It's essentially being uh provided to lot 9.11 at the rear so that in the future they could potentially use that area for circulation. That's it. >> So you could potentially use it as a
road, too. >> Yes. >> It's inior to our property. It wouldn't be a road. It's it's an access easement between two private property lots. It would not be tantamount to a road, >> but that's on top of the super front side. Is that correct?
>> Well, if it is, it's subject to federal regulations and would have to comply with and it goes beyond the purview of local zoning in any case. So, I'm not certain the answer would be material, candidly. >> Okay. And and what are those yellow lines on the right sides going on top of the homes and properties?
>> That is just a 200 foot uh boundary around the property. Uh essentially indicating which properties uh would be noticed for the application. Okay, that's all my question. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth?
>> Yes, sir. >> Please state your name as your last for the record. >> Nina Jocknowitz. Nenina. N I N A. Last name Jacqu Noitz. J O C H N O W I TZ. >> And your address? >> 203 West Greystone Road. I'm sure before
the testimony is over, this lovely board will know my address by heart. Thank you very much. Miss Vina, you mentioned because it's in part testimony, correct? That there were some wells and let's make sure everybody knows those some
wells are how many? 33 capped wells contaminated. Correct. Can you >> have to do with what does that have to do with the lot lines? >> It does. Okay. >> Okay. Can you point out where those wells are, please?
>> That's not before the board, ma'am. >> Well, but this is why it the question I'm asking because you have a contaminated site. You're going to be asking for an easement to make a road, which is of course this gentleman's
purview to say that he can. You're going to be chopping down more trees, which we don't even have data on what type of trees there are. grandfather, you know, right, Mr. Sullivan, >> the only application before the board is for a sighteline adjustment. I
understand there's concerns about the contamination. I understand there's concerns about site plan. I understand that there's concerns about future development and the chopping down of trees. The only question that this board is going to vote on should that line should those lines be moved? Okay. >> Nothing else.
>> Okay. So, to that point, important to the entire question is where are the wells? You want to move the lines. You want to build a road. You want to take a road from Bordontown Road all the way to Route 9. I've been at the meetings. 70
tractor trailers an hour. Vina, I remember. >> Thank you. That said, and that's of course not in this testimony, but that's in 2021 or 2022. I'm not sure of the year, date or minute. >> Stay on point. Stay on point, please. >> Okay. The point is you want to move the
lines, give away a little property back to the town. We need to know where the wells are. Point out the contamination on the map that you've testified to because when you change those lines, move this stuff around this imaginary
line, what you're doing is you're moving things that are real, like the gentleman spoke of earlier, all the contamination. I think he was over here. um and everything else and all the trucks that you're allowed to drive over that little
um easement road through and we'd like to know where they are because before you make that decision plan has nothing to do with this application >> again it does >> respectfully I disagree entirely
>> okay again I'm asking the gentleman the engineer here okay with the site plan that he wants to move imaginary lines to provide us with thankfully the all where all the wells are that are
contaminated and then actually a second question I have for the zoning board Miss Vina I don't sir I don't know your engineering Mr. engineer. I don't know your name. I apologize. Um, is you don't include anything about the repairarian
zones, the flood zones, and with all of this map and with all the hurricanes and with all of the flooding that we have had, right? And we have because all of you, I know, have lived in this town at least 25 or 30 years, if not more. I
don't know you, but sir, the zoning board. That said, all of the flooding that has occurred, and I have pictures that I can provide to you of flooding, I'd like to see the aerial maps of that because when you drive those those areas
through, um, you can you I want to see where it's going to go, where that water is going to go back to, I hate to say it, the super fun site and the contamination that's not cleaned up and everything else. The imaginary lines are going to be contaminating
these areas. We have wildlife here and I testified to my identity as a as a wildlife rehabber. We have families here. We only have how many houses were built and how many are to be built. Miss Vina, >> it's nothing to do with this
application. And as I explained earlier, the land mass is not going to change in itself. >> I understand Mr. Sullivan, Chairman Sullivan, I understand that. >> So, whatever is there now is going to be there now. >> Except what they're asking for is these
lines to move to move their road in so they can have access to the back, right? So, they're going to move a line so they can have access to the back property later to build >> they can have access to the back property now. >> Except what they're trying to do is build a road. >> It's their property.
>> They can do that anyways. Even if we deny this. >> How many trees are going to be cut down? >> That's a site plan question. Not before. >> And where are the wells? >> Also not before the board. >> It deals with site plan. This is
strictly for the lot lines. >> Whether the lines move or not. >> Let me I have a question for you. That's a Thank you. Perfect question. What if you didn't move the lines? >> What's going to happen? >> Nothing. It's going to be the exact same as it is. So
>> hold on. Hold on. >> I apologize. So if then why would they move? Why are they asking for lines to be changed? >> So they provided testimony and Mr. Cali, Mr. Weary, please correct me where I'm wrong, but the testimony that was provided was one so that the lot lines
conform with the dedic with the delineated contaminated areas. Secondly, so that now all the contaminated area is removed and lot 9.11 is now a clean lot and the contaminated area maintains on is all going to be maintained on lot
11.11 and the remaining accessory structures that are associated with the use on lot 11.11 are now all on their own dedicated lot rather being split between two lots. Furthermore, as Miss Sant represented earlier, this was
originally a request that was proposed by the township. And furthermore, the rightway that dedication is to in order so that the township can further accomplish a portion of its circulation element as designated in its 2021 master plan re-examination report. And I
believe you said from 2007 >> 2009. >> 2009. >> So, council, did I misrepresent your application? >> You said it. You said it very well. This is an undertaking in land efficiency, not development or disruption. It's it's it's quite that simple.
>> So, you're going to move all the contamination under one spot. Is that correct? >> There's no contamination being >> not being moved. I'm talking about in the imaginary line, you're going to take the imaginary line. You're going to move it over to contain it in one spot. What
would be the justification to move an imaginary line over into one location instead of having it over two lots nine and 11 and 12 and or 10. I'm sorry. I'm just >> you don't need one to move to move a lot
line. A lot line in of itself pre a lot line adjustment in of itself is primmaacia approvable by a board. We're here for two reasons. One is for the subdivision and site plan review, which would be completely otherwise conforming, but for two items that we're discussing. It has nothing to do with
the access easement, has nothing to do with the right-of-way dedication, has certainly nothing to do with any prospective development on this property. We're here for two reasons. beyond that effectively you know it's I don't want to call it a courtesy review but it is a review that is primaacia
approvable on its face but for two items of relief and those were described in detail by the board's consultants by my consultant by myself that being the D2 use variance relief for the expansion of lot area on lot 11 and the landscape area ratio which is an existing
condition that effectively is no change but in fact it is slightly improving technically that's bulk relief Those are the only items we are here to justify. Now, >> you're talking about the raspberry thing, right? >> You mentioned, you called it the raspberry decision, right? >> Well, we're kind of blending uh Yeah.
legal ideas now, but yes. >> Okay. So, again, you're moving an imaginary line over to a single lot to make it all contained within an imaginary line. >> That's correct.
What would because you want to do this and it's supposed to be so nice for us. What would be the justification? Why would you want what in your imagination provide us with a reason why it should be done? >> I'm not going to do that. That's that's
I don't have to do that and I'm not going to entertain that kind of a subjective notion or inquiry. Ma'am, >> I'm not asking for subjective. I'm actually asking for scientific or act, you know, real reasons, justifications, hardcore something >> can't help you with scientific or
hardcore. Our professional planner will justify the variance relief shortly when Mr. Capone testifies at the next public hearing. >> So, you don't want to explain? >> There's nothing to explain. I'm I'm candidly I I really don't even quite understand. >> I I'm trying to understand why you want
to move a contaminate you want to move an imaginary line for a contaminated site so everything is on that one site. To me, it makes sense that you would do that. So, you could say, "Okay, we're going to keep building over here where it's not contaminated and that in the future." Thank you very Right. And then
that's the second thing. >> This is Miss M. Join. This is not a debate. >> Okay. But this is the >> We asked you to your questions on topic, what was testified to. All this hyperbole that you're bringing up has nothing to do with this application. And
this is nor can the board even take it into consideration. >> And this is exactly why our town is going from woodlands. >> Okay. That now if you're going to pick up bring up some opinion about something in political, please don't. It has nothing to do with >> I didn't say political
observation, isn't it? >> Okay. Well, that is your personal that's your personal feelings about something. Has nothing to do with this board's decisions. >> Okay. when the uh building um um Miss Swamp can answer this. How many trees? >> M does not have to answer questions.
>> You've already asked and you've been answered the questions. You've been given far more than four minutes. I'm now going to ask you to please >> rest for the evening. Okay. We're going to have another hearing. I'm sure you'll be here. >> Of course. >> Okay. Thank you for your interest.
>> Thank you. >> I'll bring the uh photographs for the eggs on the other Price property. Oh, what is that? That's that ma'am. That has nothing to do with the record. Please. >> Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Safety in the environment doesn't matter to you. >> Ma'am, please.
>> Just you already spoke once, sir. I'm not going to entertain it. It's 11:15 now. I'm going to have >> We not get an additional chance. Is it only one time? Because I've been here. >> No, it's I I'm sure everyone in the courtroom would like, sir, but unfortunately, we have a hard stop at 10:30. I've gone 45 minutes beyond that.
>> Okay. Only one pointed question. >> No, sir. Okay. No, sir. >> Not tonight. We will have another date. You can you can come. I'm going. Last person. >> I just want to address you guys. >> Hold on. Hold on. You got to be put under oath.
>> Mariah Turpin. >> Yes. >> Mariah Turpin. T U R P I N. >> 52 Harvard Road, Parland, New Jersey. Obridge. So, we all came here today just because
we have we do have concerns. We do have questions and we appreciate you guys for answering it. What we don't appreciate is the snarkiness and the laughter amongst our questions. Um, you you did point out. I happen to live in both and
cuz my parents are divorced. And I want to tell you guys uh how lucky you guys are that you guys aren't dealing with Sarahville residents because they cleared out their council behind the environment. So, what I'm explaining to
you is that this is very important to us. And you can throw a whole bunch of legal jargon, but we understand that things don't just happen just because we we know that there's always a plan
behind something. So, we see that this is the start of a plan. We see that this is a snowball effect. And so for you to say that I don't know why you guys are here or I I can't believe there's so many people
>> I don't no one said anything to that to that story. >> The lawyer had uh implied that and there was much annoyance coming from these people. I'm just telling you how how we are feeling about it and how your impression is. >> I fully understand all of your emotion and you have to understand something as
well. They own the land >> right? This man is representing the owners of the land. He's a professional engineer. They're talking about what they want to do to consolidate lots, >> move the lot line, >> right? >> That's it. I don't know what they're
going to do 10 years from now. I don't know what they're going to do 10 months from now. >> So, >> this board is only empowered. No, ma'am. You don't. >> Yeah, I do. I do, though. You don't? Because Okay, I'm trying to explain to you. You're talking about you're talking about parin you're talking about
clearing out a council ma'am that has nothing to do with this. >> That's great. I just want to finish my piece here. Um what I want you to understand is it absolutely does because this is the same defense that ma'am I'm going to ask you to stop that >> because your comments have nothing to do
with the board against their people. So for them to be >> you're interrupting a governmental function ma'am. exactly what Sville didn't do. Okay. >> So, I advise everybody in Obridge to continue coming through. >> Ma'am, I'm asking if you please sit down
or I'll have you removed. [applause] >> Thank you. >> All right, >> council. No public portion closed for the evening. >> That's it. >> We can't stay here all night. I already told we're going to have another meeting. The planner is going to come.
Most of your questions probably would relate around the planner's testimony. So, we're going to schedule a date for the new hearing. Are we doing January 9th? >> January 8th. >> I'm sorry, 8th. >> Nope.
Counselor, >> okay, I want to give these people a date because it's getting late. >> We'll take the eighth not as chairman, preserve it for the record, purposes of carrying it. If we end up having to shuffle it, I I will speak with council and we will go from there. But for now, >> thank you, Mr. Please. >> Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
>> Thank you, sir. I'm >> Yes. >> Sorry about that. I said it is the board's policy that there's new notice when the carries into the new year. So, we're just going to ask you to um renotice for the public. Okay, counselor. >> Not a problem, counselor. >> Thank you. >> All right. Matter 56-2024Z
Oldbridge Chemicals. This matter is going to be continued January 8th with further notice. Please check on the website to make sure that it's on for that evening. Thank you all for appearing. >> Thank you very much, folks. Happy holidays to everybody. >> Same to all.
>> We'll see you in the new year. >> Yeah. In a minute. In a minute. We clear the We're going to clear the room. >> Yeah. We're going to clear close the room. We got a call for an endermanment. >> I don't want to open up any further public portion. >> We got We got to call for an adjournment.
>> No, I know. I already did. >> More and more than I needed. >> We got to pull for an adjournment. >> Oh, okay. >> Please. >> Port seven. Move for an adjournment. >> Move it.
>> Is there a second? All all in favor? >> Any opposed? >> Stand. >> I