WEBVTT

METADATA
Video-Count: 1
Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=TPvK_y65DKo

NOTE
MEETING SECTIONS:

Part 1 (Video ID: TPvK_y65DKo):
- 00:08:52: Meeting Start, Pledge, Roll Call, Housekeeping, and Minutes
- 00:11:48: Resolution 51-2025Z: Variance Approval for Fence Installation
- 00:12:54: Resolution 57-2025Z: Approving Bulk Variance Relief After Fire
- 00:14:16: Resolution 59-2025Z: Approving Pole Barn Variance Approval
- 00:15:06: Professional Introductions, Application Adjournment, Agenda Changes
- 00:16:31: Application 35-2025Z: Colleen Flynn - Fire Restoration Project
- 00:17:04: Attorney Barlo Introduces Witness Colleen Flynn
- 00:18:43: Homeowner Colleen Flynn Testimony: Fire and Home Restoration
- 00:23:36: Attorney Barl Introduces Licensed Professional Architect: Fortunado
- 00:24:40: Architect Fortunado Presents Construction & Design Plans: A1
- 00:29:06: Attorney Barl Introduces Engineer & Planner: Ernest Feist
- 00:30:12: Ernest Feist Presents Neighborhood Photos Exhibit: A2, A3
- 00:33:25: Engineer Feist Planning Testimony: Master Plan Consistency
- 00:41:47: Closing Public Portion & Final Comments on Application
- 00:43:18: D4 Variance Approval - Colleen Flynn Home Restoration
- 00:44:50: Approving Pre-Existing Front Yard Setback Variance
- 00:45:35: Recess
- 00:53:26: Meeting Called Back to Order After Recess
- 00:53:59: Application 33-2024Z: Community Bible Fellowship Church
- 00:54:15: Attorney Clauser Introduces Testimonies of Community Bible
- 00:56:24: Elder Richard Tisdale Presents Testimony of Church's Purpose
- 01:02:11: Attorney Clauser Introduces Professional Engineer: Tom Olennik
- 01:03:07: Civil Engineer Olennik: Existing Conditions on Property
- 01:12:18: Compliance, Relief Request & Storm Water Management
- 01:14:48: Discussion on Engineering Design and Variances with Board
- 01:21:32: Gary Seagull: Professional Architect Testimony
- 01:23:12: Architect Seagull's Design: Cross Part of the Building
- 01:28:23: Code and Regulations and the Church Structure
- 01:34:37: Floor Plan of The Church, Materials, Color, Construction
- 01:43:32: Discussion on Setting a Precedent Due to Height Variance
- 01:49:50: Location of Steeple Height is Too High and Doesn't Fit In
- 01:54:39: Concerns over Parking and Fellowship Hall
- 01:55:26: Discussion Over Cross Is Too Massive for Area
- 02:03:52: Discuss a Technical Meeting to Lower Steeple Size
- 02:06:37: Landscape Height is Insufficient and No Neighbors Complaining
- 02:16:39: Attorney to Decide If He Wants To Put On the Planner
- 02:17:25: Introduce Frank Misovich, Traffic Engineer
- 02:18:49: Frank Misovich: Existing Traffic Data
- 02:25:57: Traffic Testimony Questions and Answers
- 02:34:37: We've Returned from Break, Meeting Called to Order
- 02:35:10: Attorney Clauser Requests Carry Application to Next Meeting
- 02:36:51: Public Portion is Closed & Meeting End


Part: 1

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Good evening. I'd like to start the meeting. Please rise. >> Allegiance flag of America to the stands nation. >> Please be seated. Welcome everyone.

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Township of Albridgeidge zoning board of adjustment April 16, 2026. Adequate notice of this meeting of the bridge township zoning board of adjustment has been provided in accordance with the open public meetings act at least 48 hours prior to the commencement of this meeting by primarily posting in

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municipal complex an announcement giving the time, the date, the location of the agenda. also by mailing such announcement to the home news and tribune, filing a copy of such announcement with the municipal clerk and uh posting the uh agenda on the municipal website.

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>> May we have a roll call, please? Miss Porchelli. >> Certainly. Mrs. Andrews, >> present. >> Mrs. Gomez, >> here. >> Mr. Iso, >> here. >> Mr. Scogno absent. Miss Spanelli

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>> here. Miss Taverie absent. Mr. Singh >> here. >> Miss Fernbach >> here. >> Chairman Sullivan >> here. >> Uh Mr. Malin >> here. >> Miss Savant. >> Mr. Darie

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>> present. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh there's a couple housekeeping issues. Uh first, this meeting is being televised on CATV 15 right here in the township. Uh simultaneously it is being sent out over

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YouTube live. If ever want to see it for some reason you can look it up on YouTube. Uh the meeting will uh tonight as our rules allow till 10 o'clock on testimony. We save the last half hour in public comments and of course we would

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uh end hard stop at 10:30. I don't think that tonight we're going to be that uh going that long. Should we reach that hour, we're going to have to shut down. Uh, I would ask any witnesses. These are directional microphones, so you're going to have to speak pretty close to them

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and right into them. Uh, otherwise, yeah, if you push the button, they go green and then they're live. There we go. Uh, I have a couple other matters to take care of and then we'll move on to the applications. First one, board is the minutes of March 19, 2026

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meeting. Hopefully, every had a chance to review them. Absent any comments for additions or deletions. I'd ask someone to move them for adoption. >> Is there a second? >> Roll call, please. >> Second was Miss Benelli. Correct. >> Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. Miss Andrews,

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>> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> Mr. Iso, >> yes. >> Miss Benelli, >> yes. >> Mr. Singh, >> Miss Fach, >> yes. >> Chairman Sullivan, >> yes. We have three resolutions. Uh, we'll take them individually. 51-2025Z.

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It's uh Pbat Krishna. It was a C varants. Uh, Mr. I do not have a copy of that. >> Let me give you mine. This was uh varants approval for block 7120 lot one um also known as 26 Delila

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lane in bridge New Jersey approval of uh C variance. This was to install a 6-ft fence where 4 foot was permitted. That's um resolution 51-2025Z. >> Thank you, councelor. Board members,

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someone want to move that >> is no. >> Is there second? >> Second. Miss Finnelli, please. >> Miss Andrews, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> Mr. Iso, >> yes. >> Miss Spanelli, >> yes. >> Mr. Singh, >> yes.

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>> Miss Fernach, >> yes. >> Chairman Sullivan, >> yes. 57-2025Z Orleans Segworth Segworth multiple C variances council. >> Thank you chairman. This was block uh 10

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252 lot 7.21 also known as 61 Partridge Road, Madawan, New Jersey. This was approval of bulk variance relief. Um this was a twostory detached barn that had previously burned uh been damaged in a fire. Um this was for building size

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approved for 9 924 square feet where six 600 is permitted. The building height 22t 3 in was proposed where 15 is permitted and um the stories were two where 1.5 is permitted.

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>> Thank you Mr. M. Uh board members someone want to move that for adoption please? >> Gomez >> is there a second is roll call please. Miss Andrews, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> Mr. Iso, >> yes. >> Miss Penelli, >> yes. >> Mr. Singh, >> yes. >> Miss Frambeck,

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>> yes. >> Chairman Sullivan, >> yes. Uh, finally, councelor 59-2025Z, David Lynch, multiple seat varants. >> Thank you again, chairman. This was 11257, lot 7, also known as uh 4,256

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highway 516. This was for bulk variance approval for a pole barn. This was um sideyard height and size. Uh the size of the building was proposed 968 square feet where 600 is permitted. Sideyard

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setback is 5T where 10 ft is uh required and the building height is 20t 4 in and uh where 15 ft is permitted. >> Thank you sir. Once again someone will move that for adoption. Gomez

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>> second please. ISO roll call. >> Miss Andrews, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> I'm sorry. Yes. >> Mr. Iso, >> yes. >> Miss Benelli, >> yes. >> Mr. Singh, >> yes. >> Miss Fernbach, >> yes. >> Chairman Sullivan, >> yes. We move on to the next item on its

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wearing of the professionals. If you're looking uh at the deis to my left uh are two individuals on the end. Mr. Dari who is a professional engineer and next to uh him is Miss Sant who is a professional planner.

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>> Thank you. We'll continue on uh for those here in the audience this evening. We only have two applications. I'm going to call the one that's going to be adjourned uh first. It's 31-2025Z. It's uh Ravish Patel. Uh that's uh in

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the R seven zone block uh 200.23 lot 4 seeking C and D varants. Uh that matter is adjourned to May 21st. There will be further notice on that. I think there was a problem with the notification as I'm told. So uh if you're here on that matter tonight, it's not going to be

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heard will be on the agenda May 21. That brings us to uh our only two applications. We're going to take them out of order tonight. Uh and there's a reason for that because the one we're going to take second is probably has more testimony to put on the record so they'll have more time. So we're going

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to move if you have the agenda, it's the last one on the agenda. It's 35-2025Z Colleen Flynn. That's an R30 zone low density residential. Uh this seeking devariance. Applicant proposes to rebuild the second floor with the addition of a new master bedroom uh

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increasing floor area ratio uh to 26.56 uh 3453.25 square foot where ma maximum is 21% or 2730 foot is permitted. Uh Mr. Thomas Barlo representing sir.

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>> Good evening Mr. Chairman, board members, township professional staff. As indicated, my name is Thomas Barlo. I'm an attorney with Lombardi and Lombardi in Edison, New Jersey. I'm here on behalf of the homeowners on this application. As an initial matter, I just want to confirm with the board

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secretary the notices are in order and we ready to proceed. Thank you. >> This application is the result of a fire that happened on Christmas Day 2024. As a result, the house needed to be re rebuilt and while going through the process, the homeowners decided to

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increase the living space by essentially building an addition over the garage area. This portion will enhance the functionality of the home. As you will hear, this has triggered a floor area ratio variance known as a D4 variance. The lot is 13,139

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square ft. The total proposed floor area with the 854 square foot addition is 3,283 square feet. And this I just um I realized what's in the uh agenda, but the floor area ratio we're actually seeking is 24.99%.

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So a little bit less than what's what was indicated where 21%'s allowed. There's also a pre-existing front yard setback that is remaining. So those are the two variances that are being sought. As you will hear, there's no change to the footprint of the house. There's no increase in the number of bedrooms. So,

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I think it's a rather unique far variance in that it's not a situation where a smaller house is being knocked down and a big mansion is going up to take its place. I have three witnesses I plan on calling tonight. The property owner, our architect, Dan Fortunado, and our engineer and planner, Ernie Feist.

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Unless the board has any preliminary questions, I'd call my first witness, the property. >> I just hope no one was injured in the fire. >> Thank God. >> No, they were not. Very good. Please call your first witness. >> Miss Flyn, >> raise your >> Would you raise your right hand? Do you swear affirm to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? So hope

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>> I do. >> Thank you very much. And would you state your full name and spell your last name? >> Colleen Flynn. F L Y N. >> Miss Flynn, you're the property owner. >> I am. I am. >> And you understand that based on the requested construction to the house, it

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requires a FAR variance. Correct. >> I understand. >> Can you explain to the board what happened and why we're here? Well, first I'd like to thank the board for hearing our application to increase the floor area ratio. Um, I'm a lifelong resident of Oldbridge going on 62 years uh this

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year and I've been in this house for 32 years and I raised my family there. So based on my experience, I think I know the character and the sense of community of our town and of my neighborhood.

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Over the years, I've observed similar additions going up in various houses in my neighborhood. I believe there are about 31 houses in my neighborhood, which has just a little over a hundred houses in it that have very similar additions. And I I always found that their enhancements blend well with the

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community and they contribute positively to the area both visually and in increasing the property values for everyone. Seeing so many neighbors put these additions up, I always wanted to do something like that. And on December 25th of 2024, we were kind of our hands

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were forced because our home was destroyed in a fire. And I don't know if if anyone has ever been through that type of experience, but it was extremely traumatic and devastating for our family. And and we lost a lot of material goods, but thank goodness no one was hurt. And the experience

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epitomized what we all know in that it's the people in our lives who matter and not material things. And some of the people who matter to me are my neighbors. Um I've been there for so long. I have a lot of close people that I'm close to in the neighborhood. And um they've been very wonderful and

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supportive throughout this whole traumatic experience. And part of the reason we wanted to stay where we were and rebuild was because of my neighbors. We also have my my parents living close by and my daughter with her young family live close by. and we wanted to to stay

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close so that we could be available for our extended family when they need us. So, always trying to look at the bright side of every situation. I thought one of the positives following the fire is we could we could build back better. And um we had a unique opportunity to

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rebuild and modify the interior layout of our home. And and as as Tom indicated, um we're not changing the footprint of the house, which I think is important uh to try to be consistent in the neighborhood and we are not changing the number of bedrooms. There's just a shifting around of the interior layout.

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I believe that the changes that we propose remain consistent with the scale and character of my neighborhood. The requested variance to increase the flora area ratio is essential to allow for meaningful but modest renovations inside. One of our goals is to create a

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larger master and prim primary bathroom uh that will be more functional and accessible because we do hope to age in place in our home. And um so the the plan will improve the accessibility and the functionality and safety for the

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master suite. Uh the larger primary closet is necessary because we need storage. Um if you know Country Place at all, there are no basements in our town. the water in our neighborhood, the water table is too high and we have very limited storage. Uh so having the larger

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closet which is not necessarily live livable space will enable us to store all the Christmas goods that did survive the fire and those that we've repurchased. Um, we respectfully submit that the requested variance will not alter the

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essential character of our neighborhood, nor will it create any adverse impacts. The structural appearance of the house as it stands today will not change from its current form on the outside because the town did permit us to begin construction with an altered roof line

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and the only change resulting from the variance would enable us to rebuild on the inside which doesn't impact anyone. uh this variance will allow us to rebuild responsibly, to improve the livability of our home, and to continue to contribute positively to the

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community that we so value. I thank you for your time and consideration tonight. >> I don't have any additional questions for Miss >> I'm sorry I talk a lot. >> No, no. Uh the best type of witness is you just hand it to him and let them go. So I don't if the board has any questions for

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>> just mention as an aside when we read the resolutions when the board last met someone came before us from a fire over on uh no uh John Park >> that they lost the structure same in the same way

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>> and all they wanted to do was stay here in old bridge. >> Kudos to you. >> Continue sir. >> The board has any questions in this? Uh well I'll go I'll go to uh >> of this witness Mr. >> Dari and Miss Sant. >> No

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>> I'll start on my left. >> None coming down the line. None >> counselor. >> No >> Mr. Barlo. Back to you >> then. My next witness would be Dan for a licensed professional architect. >> I'd ask that Mr. Fortunatada be sworn

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in. >> Would you raise your right hand? Do you swear or affirm to tell the whole truth and nothing but so help you come? >> Please state your full name and spell your letter. >> Dan uh excuse me, Daniel Fortunado. F O R T U N A T O.

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>> If I may proceed, Mr. Right ahead. Thank you. Mr. Fortunado, you give the board the benefit of your educational and professional background. I have a uh bachelor's industrial design degree from Ohio State, graduated 1983, and I have a

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bachelor's in architecture degree from Jel University, graduated 1993. Um I have licenses in four states, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio, and practicing uh over 30 years. And I I thank you for doing that for not

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only those in the courtroom who may not know the how procedures work and who professionals are, but also those watching at home. We appreciate that. >> Continue. We accept his expertise. >> Oh, thank you. >> Did you prepare the architectural plans in this matter? >> Yes, I did.

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>> And you also prepare prepared the three-page exhibit which I believe the board has which has been marked as A1. >> A1 being >> the Yes. Yes. >> Yes. I did prepare that. >> Okay. Can you go over the proposal with the board and what is proposed to be

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done? When we were first hired to do this project, of course, the damage to the fire from the fire was pretty extensive, mainly on the second floor, but what we had to do is essentially rebuild the the whole house. The first floor was rebuilt pretty much in kind with some minor adjustments to the uh

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the first floor bathroom, lavatory area, but the uh code compliant. We had to bring the whole house pretty much up to code. Uh there were quite a few things that we had to adjust on that. Second floor was a lot more involved. We uh had to really replace the whole second floor due to the fire and we replaced the uh

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arrangement of the rooms. It was a four always has been a four-bedroom home. One major change that we did make was that we opened up the vestibule the first floor. So the fourth bedroom was moved to where we are today with the over the garage. So it's still a four-bedroom

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house. We just uh improve the aesthetics of the interior, open up for a two-story vestibule, and uh open up the uh the whole area, the stairwell, and uh just improve the aesthetics on the inside. As was mentioned earlier, uh we just stayed with inside the four walls of the house.

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We didn't expand any further, just went basically up over the garage area. >> So, just to to be clear, there's been no change to the house's footprint. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And there's been no increase to the number of bedrooms for the house. That's correct. There's four.

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>> Okay. And there is a pre-existing front yard setback that's not being in any way changed or increased as a result of your proposal. >> We're not increasing. We're not coming any closer than the current houses today. >> And then did you perform the calculations with regards to the

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increase in the forest because of the addition over the garage? >> Yes, I did. >> And could you give the board the benefit of that calculation? We uh calculate the existing conditions of the house and uh I'll just run through some numbers here essentially but I'll just round it up. It's an 18.4%

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existing today as well as before we started the construction of the house. With the addition it puts us to 6.5% which is where we arrived at the 24.99 F. >> Okay. And that's set forth in the bulk table which is page three of A1.

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Correct. Uh it's also presented on the drawing D1. >> Okay. >> So just to be clear, the lot area also was 13,139 square ft and the proposed floor area now is 3283. Correct. >> That's correct. Yes. >> There was some confusion I think

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originally if the lot area was 13,000 or 13139, but you've confirmed that it's 13139. We were working off of two uh uh site surveys when we first started this project. It was an older survey. Since that time, the owner has engaged in a new survey and that's the one you see here today.

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>> Okay. The floor ratio being sought is 24.99%. Correct. >> That's correct. >> Mr. Chairman, unless the board has any questions. I don't have any additional questions for Mr. Fortunado. >> Thank you, Mr. Dari. I >> I don't have anything for this witness.

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Mr. Chairman, >> uh I don't have any questions. just uh as uh for records we generally round up. So when should the board act favorably on the uh variance then the F should be

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25 because 2499 round up to >> we'll we'll take the extra 001 just wanted to be accurate if it was math. >> So uh >> no we'll charge for the Thank you. >> So but other than that I don't have any questions.

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Uh, I'm going to start on my left going down to the end. >> Mr. Sing, >> Mr. >> No question, >> Sanders counselor. >> Uh, well, it was rather succinct. I

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mean, it's you're saying there's no no change in the flip room whatsoever. The only changes over over the addition over the top of the garage where uh the same amount of bedrooms are going to be just uh one larger in the closet. >> Correct. 100%. I I understand. Uh you

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want to go to your final witness? >> Certainly. Thank you. Paul as our engineer and planner. >> And of course all of them are going to be available for when I go to public. >> Absolutely. Okay. I won't let them. We >> we gave you an extra points. Would

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you raise your right hand? >> Do you? >> I do. >> Would you state your full name and spell your last, please? >> Ernest W. Feist. Feist S. >> May I proceed? >> Sure. Go right ahead. Thank you. Mr.

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Feist, can you give the board the benefit of your credentials in both engineering and planning? >> Uh, sure. I hold a bachelor's in science degree from a bachelor's in engineering degree from Stevens Institute of Technology. Been a licensed engineer for about 30 years. Licensed professional

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planner for nearly the same period of time. I'm the majority shareholder and president of Center State Engineering. Been doing that for about 30 years as well. Uh we represent a wide variety of towns both as >> planners. Again, as I said before, for those watching at home, it makes it a

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little easier for for them to understand the procedure. And obviously, we'll accept your expertise. Thank you. >> Both planning and engineering, sir. >> He's going to wear two hats tonight, right? Yes, he is. >> Okay. Just let me know which hat he has on when he's going to talk. >> Certainly. >> We'll start with the PE. >> I think we have

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>> You're going to pee the PP. I think we're going to do >> PP just in case. Just in case. Just in case. Okay. >> Uh >> professional planner for those watching at home. >> Mr. You've heard the testimony of the prior witnesses and you're also relying on their testimony along with your inspection of the area and also your

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knowledge of the area. >> That's correct. >> And you've prepared two exhibits tonight. Uh A which one has been marked as A2. It's five pages depicting certain houses in the neighborhood and also A3 which is kind of an overview showing the

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location of the house in question. Correct. >> Correct. I prepared those. >> Okay. Can you give us an overview of the project and the two variances that are needed? >> Sure. Uh referring to A2 and A3. Uh the exhibit A2 is a uh several pages of

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homes that have undergone similar uh expansions throughout the uh throughout Country Place. Uh I believe there are 18 as well as the subject property on the first page that shows it in its current

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state. And as previously testified by the architect, uh the exterior will remain the same. The improvements are completely within the interior. Uh exhibit A3 is an aerial photograph. Um it was taken uh and shows the home

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before the fire. Uh and the purpose of that is to show that the uh the subject property uh the neighbor to the right is open public space owned by the uh municipality of Bulbridge. uh to the

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left and offset uh is uh a neighbor uh and it's offset so it does not directly uh face the uh subject property due to the curve in the road and across the street there are no neighbors facing uh there are sideyards for uh homes located

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on a street that's perpendicular to the subject property. Uh I won't repeat the uh the details that the architect already gave us. I would uh point out that the lot is irregularly shaped. It is a pies-shaped lot. It is 13,139

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uh square ft. Uh the applicant is seeking a D4 variance uh this evening. Uh as previously stated, uh the ordinance permits a F of 0.21. We are seeking a uh F of 25 rounded uh up. Um,

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I'll also indicate uh that uh we've made uh uh every effort to minimize the variances uh and work within the development standards. The additional floor area will be contained as previously testified within the existing footprint and building uh envelope and

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there are no new bulk variances uh requested. We uh respect all the setbacks. >> There is the pre-existing front yard setback and we're not increasing that in any way. We're just asking remain the same. Correct. >> That is correct. >> And A2, which was prepared by your

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office, shows essentially 17 other homes in the development that all put additions to one degree or another over the garage as the applicant is proposing. Correct. >> That's correct. >> Um,

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if you could uh render the planning testimony necessary with regards to the positive and ne negative criteria as it relates to the board. >> Of course. Uh, with regards to the positive criteria, I found that the proposal advances the municipal purposes of zoning in three ways. It promotes the

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general welfare by restoring housing on a previously occupied lot. It enhances the visual character of the neighborhood through updated and highquality architecture. And finally, makes uh efficient use of the land, infrastructure, and community resources by reinvesting in an existing property.

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I'd also go on to say that it maintains the single family family character and compatibility of the neighborhood. The increase in FAR allows for a moderate uh increase in square footage to meet modern living standards. >> Uh with regards to the negative

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criteria, >> uh with regards to the negative criteria, uh there is no substantial detriment to the public good here. The reconstructed home will comply with all applicable codes, including modern fire, life safety, and energy standards. As

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the architect indicated, for all intents and purposes, the entire home is being brought up to current construction code standards. Uh the proposed massing respects the neighborhood norms again as shown in A2, uh and will not adv adversely impact

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light, air, privacy, or views of adjoining properties. All the improvements are being completed within the existing envelope. Uh we're also uh replacing the destroyed structure with a finished and maintained home that will stabilize surrounding property values

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and promote neighborhood continuity. Uh there is also no substantial impairment to the zone plan or master plan. The bridge township master plan encourages reinvestment in aging housing stock, support for family housing, and maintaining community character. The F

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deviation is minor. It's tailored to to the site by working within the bu existing building envelope and being consistent with the zone purpose and intent. The relief sought will not encourage overdevelopment as it is tied to a unique post- disaster recovery

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situation. >> And because the house is remaining a fourbedroom house, would you agree there's been no intensification of the use? >> None at all. >> And um The continuation as a single family home is consistent with the master plan for

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this. Correct. >> That's correct. >> You have any additional planning testimony you'd like Mr. Pice to address? >> No, I think he covered everything. Uh, and I just u I just want to reiterate that when it's a D4, especially for some

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of the newer members, you look at the positive and the negative criteria. The key to this project is a the footprint of the house is not changing. They're not adding a bedroom. So, it's I mean visually, yes, the house is going to be

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larger than what it was before, but footprint-wise, building coverage wise, it is it is going to remain the same. Also, you always look at um are there any negative impacts to the neighboring properties? uh I think one side of the

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property abuts the township owned parcel which is not going to be developed. So the neighbor is is one of the neighbors is the township of old bridge. So I don't see any visual negative impacts. The um architectural as you can see is

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quite well done. So I don't have any additional comments. >> I don't have anything for this witness either. Mr. Chairman, >> thank you. Start down on my left of this witness. No questions. Right down the line.

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>> No questions. >> Um, just for clarity, uh, the portion that's being modified is only the interior. Correct. There's nothing being modified on the exterior. >> That's correct. >> I mean, there's an addition going on. >> There is an addition, >> but the addition's already been approved, right? This is just for

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>> addition was approved without living space. So as you see in the bottom of A2 in the bottom right hand corner that's what it looks like. That won't change. >> Thank you. >> So I think to clarify right the addition

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was approved to be a nonhabitable space and uh because they had to come back and it was an fire incident. So they were permitted to proceed with the condition that it is going to be unhabitable but

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they have to come to the board to convert it to habitable space and that is why the applicant is in front of us. >> Understood. I apologize for those watching and for those here. The pollen is killing me in the last two days. >> We're all going through >> losing my voice and I can't stop

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sneezing and I finally did before I came here tonight and I hope I can get through this. Uh I don't have any particular questions. You don't have any other witnesses? >> I have no other. >> My other my only comments would be uh I'd ask one question. You know the age of the home? >> Uh it was built in 1980 >> I think 86.

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>> Uh and that's common in those areas. Is there any HOA issues? >> No. >> They take no issue with uh >> councelor. I I don't want to uh I don't want to have the witness testifying from afar, but uh >> she has been sworn, but

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>> No, I understand. But would you would you want to put on the record that that there is no HOA issues to your understanding? >> Are there any HOA issues that >> I don't know what the requirements are there? >> None that I'm aware of. We we pay dues. We have common areas that are supported by

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>> to your understanding there's not >> not at all. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean if there's if something comes up in the further I don't know that we we need it now. I I know that some of those HOAs do just require a letter of no interest. I don't

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know with that particular this country >> I mean some of the the aggressive ones would have seen the construction going >> I'm sure that they would have made it a point >> and probably would have made it known beforehand but um >> one of the board members >> just into the microphone. one of our board members. Um I mean we're friendly

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with all of our neighbors and she lives you could you could throw a stone to to reach her house >> and uh she's been inside and she's actually seen what we're doing. She knows what the plans are and she's very supportive and she she might come to you to do one for herself. >> She likes the idea. >> Yeah, Ron,

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>> thank you for that. >> We got to give another one >> and we just want that on the record. So, u I'm going to go to a public portion in a moment, but I want to say I was impressed. Uh, A2 U kind of tells the whole story. Uh, and that's why I asked about the age because I see that

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everyone is improving over the years to more modern living. And it looks like they all stayed inside their footprint as well. >> Yeah. >> And I think because it's a kind of pie shaped, had it been rectangular, it' probably be about 1500 15,000 square feet and this wouldn't have triggered. It's just a unique shape.

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>> No, but I can say it's it certainly looks by A3, A1, A2, and A1 certainly looks like it's consistent with that area. Having said that, uh can I go to public portion at this point, Council? Certainly. >> This is matter 35-2025Z.

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This for restoration of a home after a fire uh requiring devariance uh R30 zone. Anyone want to be heard in this matter, please raise your hand or stand. This will be the only opportunity for a public portion. So if it's now or not at

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all. All right. Uh no one has responded counselor. No one has stood. I'm going to close the public portion. Final comments. >> Briefly by way of summation. I mean this is every homeowner's nightmare a fire, let alone one on Christmas Day. Um the changes to the house that you've heard

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do not change the footprint or the number of bedrooms. So there's no intensification of the use of the property. As you saw from Mr. ice exhibits. There are another a number of homes in the development. Um, looks like 17 different ones that are depicted that have basically done the same thing as as you indicated, Mr. Chairman. So, I think

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what's proposed clearly fits in the neighborhood. It's not like you're driving down the street besides the fact this is a dead end and you'd see this big monstrosity. Um, that would would ask you to say that doesn't look appropriate. So I'd ask the board look f favorably on the D4 variance and the

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existing C variance for front yard setback. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you, sir. Is there any final questions or any misunderstandings that anybody wants to have reviewed? Uh yeah, I would add that uh yeah, as I

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said, it seems to be consistent with the neighborhood. You're staying inside the footprint. Uh there's no change to the zone plan. uh no change in the bedrooms uh use uh amounts. So I don't think there's any change in intensity and obviously people are trying to bring

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these up to the code and more modern day standards. So I certainly don't have an issue with this. We'll see how the board reacts. Uh we're seeking D4 on this counselor. >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh the there's no other bulk other than the pre-existing non-conforming. Right.

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>> Exactly. For the front yard setback. >> Let's do the D4. Board members 21 is allowed in the zone. This is 0.25. Round it up from 2499. Anyone want to move this for approval? D4 is >> second. >> Moved and second. Roll call, please. D4.

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>> Who was second? >> That was Miss >> Andrew. Okay. >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> Miss Andrews. >> Yes. >> Miss Gomez. >> Yes. >> Mr. O. >> Yes. >> Miss Spanelli. >> Yes. >> Mr. Singh. >> Yes. >> Miss Fernback. >> Yes. >> Chairman Sullivan. >> You know, most people probably would

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leave after a fire. uh probably bad thoughts uh pro probably want to take a new lease on life. It's credit that that you want to stay and as I said we had one last month because people don't want to leave their land and and and I appreciate that living in the community

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myself and the community uh appreciates that sense of community that you maintain. My vote is yes. >> You're probably a stronger person for that. Thank you very much, councelor. That's approved. Uh the as to the uh I guess we have to put the C on, right?

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It's uh it's pre-existing non-conforming uh front yard setback. Someone move it is Oh, second, please. >> Andrews. >> Uh same. Roll call, please. >> Miss Andrews, >> yes. >> Miss Gomez, >> yes. >> Mr. Iso, >> yes. >> Miss Penelli,

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>> yes. >> Mr. Singh, >> yes. >> Miss Fernbeck, >> yes. >> Chairman Sullivan, >> yes. Thank you for staying in the community. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, Mr. Barl and your witnesses. >> Okay. Uh we're going to take a quick five minutes. So that's like four and a

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half. Uh we'll take a recess at this time. >> We stand in uh recess. Thank you. All right, we've uh returned from recess. Miss Porchelli, could we have a roll call? >> Certainly. Miss Andrews, >> present.

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>> Miss Gomez >> here. >> Mr. Iso >> here. >> Miss Spanelli >> here. >> Mr. Singh >> here. >> Miss Fernbeck >> here. >> Chairman Sullivan >> here. >> Mr. Melan >> here. Miss Sant >> here. >> Mr. Darg

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>> present. >> All right. I present our uh final application of the evening. This is 33-2024Z Community Bible Fellowship Church. This is uh TCD zone R40. It's block 14263 lot 9.12

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442 Crell Road. Major preliminary and final site plan with C and D variance. Applicant seeking uh proposes to demolish existing structure on the property. instruct the house of worship. Peter Clauser is representing this is a continuation. Sir, >> that is correct. You're uh Mr. Chairman,

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Peter Clauser with the firm paid for the record on behalf of the Community Bible Fellowship Church. We were here in October of last year. Uh and we were at the end of a night and we were able to present the operation testimony through Mr. Tisdale who's sitting to my right um

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with regard to the the church's hours of operation, number of of of persons. So, that's all on the record. Um just by way of a brief uh uh overview, the church has about 80 members. Obviously the goal of any church including this church is

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to grow. Um they have services conducted once a week on Sunday mornings contemporaneous with Sunday school and then some smaller activities during the week from Bible study and and youth groups and things like that like any other normal church that uh you would

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see. Um I Mr. Tisdale is here again um because the church wanted to be clear that when they come into the community, they're not asking to take from the community, but they want to become part of the community and and share their assets with the community. So, Mr. Tis Tildale is going to talk to you a little

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bit about what the church does when it's a member of a community. Um and then I have uh Tom is our engineer and he'll provide the engineering testimony. Um, and then we have Gary who's our architect who designed this beautiful building. And Gary will share with you

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his uh testimony. And then we have Frank uh to talk a little bit about traffic. And then Allison is here as our professional uh planner. Um the reason we're in front of the board is we're requesting primarily uh a height variance uh to allow the structure that

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the church seeks um to have built uh in honor of their religion. And Gary will talk a little bit about that. Although we do have a height variance. It is a small portion of the building that actually exceeds the height. It's not the complete building. Um so if I could,

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I think it's best if we probably swear Richard in again. Uh and then he has a statement he'd like to read and I'll allow him to do that and then we can move on to the professional uh testimony. >> Would you raise your right hand? Do you swear affirmed to tell the whole truth and nothing but hope? >> I do. >> Would you uh state your full name and

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spell your last? >> Richard Tisdale. T I S D A L E. >> And Richard, you are a member of the church. >> I'm an elder of the church. Yes. >> And you have pretty much been my lead contact on this project for quite a while now. >> Yes, I have. >> Okay. So, if you could just share with

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the board a little bit about what the church brings to the community when they when they come into the community. >> Okay. Good evening board members and uh Obridge professionals. Um thank you for this opportunity to speak tonight. Um we appreciate your time and consideration.

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Uh this evening we um also want you will be hearing from our architecture, our engineers and uh addressing the site specific and technical details of this

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project. But first we want to we would like to share with you um share who we are and how community fellowship seek to become a come into Obridge.

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um not as a recipient of um community resources but we but as a partner and committed to serve alongside the township. Um our approach is simple. We believe a

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church should be should add an immeasurable value to the community um it enters for 17 years. Um we have operated a a tutoring um initiative

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called mentoring our kids together. acronym is most um where we s where certified teachers and volunteers uh support our students academically. Um

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what makes this um impactful is that many students that uh who takes the program um who receive the help from the program returns as tutor as tutors which

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creates circles and moment and um mentorship and long-term community investment um for 15 years. We've also hosted a backpack um and school supply drive providing

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students with uh tools they need to succeed. Recently uh we expanded this effort to include new shoes, helping student to start the school year with both um preparation and confidence.

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Uh in addition to that we our members actively partnered with Synergy um family um um foundation uh where doing where annually we have

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holiday drives at um Madawan Regional School. Um, this effort has supported over 20 over 200 families each year, providing food, clothing, toys, and

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other essentials resources. Our goal is always to support and strengthen existing community efforts. We um we have also contributed $30,000 to Madawan Regional High School

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District CARES program including $10,000 toward toward the community um accessible outdoor track demonstrating our commitment to investing and sharing

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resources and benefiting everyone. These efforts um reflects our our consistent pattern reflect a consistent pattern. We serve, we partner and we invest while working

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while our work to date has been rooted in Aberdine Materon's community. We are eager to listen listen and um discover where we can be a greater service to

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Obridgeidge. Um we don't come with all the answers. We come with a proven track record and a genuine desire to bring the same commitment to Obridgeidge to become a

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positive um present, a re a reliable partner and a resource to the community. We we respectfully ask for your approval. We look forward to the opportunity to

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serve along with you and this community. I thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you very much, Richard. >> Um I don't have any questions with regard to Richard. I I wanted to allow him to share the church's vision uh and goals with the board. Uh but he's available if you have any questions.

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Otherwise, I have my next witness. Mr. >> Tisdale in a shorter version. I'll ask if anybody wants them have has any questions about it. coming down from my left. Board member

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have any questions from nothing? >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> We've been working together on this for so long and I just I I wanted to give him an opportunity to share with you who they are. >> Absolutely. >> It's a great group of people I've been

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working with. Um Tom, if you could come up and join me. Tom Ol is a professional engineer. He works with uh Bob Keyy's office. Um I believe that as part of this process, you know, Tom was instrumental in the development of the stormwater management system on the site and is very familiar

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with the engineering plans that were prepared. Um and I think you're going to be pretty happy with his credentials. Put >> him under. Would you raise your right hand? >> Do you swear or affirm to tell the whole truth so help you gun? >> Yes, I do. >> State your full name and spell your last, please.

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>> Thomas J. O. Lenn. O L E N I K. >> So Tom, if you could just share with the board your credentials and your current uh license. I'm asking that Tom be accepted as a professional engineer to describe these plans to the board. Okay. >> Yeah. I have a bachelor of science in civil engineering from uh New York

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College of Engineering, a master of science and civil engineering from that same institute, a PhD in civil and environmental engineering from Ruckers University. >> A PhD. >> I'll accept your expertise. >> There there's more.

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>> There's Go ahead. >> No, no, >> you're on TV. Come on. I I've been a practicing consulting engineer for over 40 years working with key engineering about that same time period and I'm also associate professor of civil environmental engineering at New Jersey

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Institute of Technology where I do teach storm water management and site plan design. >> Thank you. And then that's again as I mentioned earlier it's important for those people watching at home maybe even some of the people here in the audience to know who you are. We appreciate that and we accept your credentials.

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So Tom, we have up on the board um I suppose we need to mark that uh because that is a rendering of the I believe landscape plan. So maybe that gets marked A1. >> Landscape plan A1. >> Yeah. >> And then Tom, take it away. Um you know, could you talk a little bit about the

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existing conditions on the property, where we're located, and what we're proposing on the site? >> Yeah. I've been on the property several times in its current state uh because we had to uh do some uh subsurface uh investigation for the soils for the eventual design of that uh pond that you

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see in the in the souththeast corner. Uh obviously the sites on Catrell Road, there's an existing driveway along the uh northern part of the property that comes in and there's existing structures all which are going to be taken down. And for the typical civil engineering

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project like this, it's a typical site plan. Um, utilities of course, lighting, planning, storm water management, and of course the traffic and uh those issues will and architecture will be discussed by other professionals.

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So the site as you can see is has two entrances both two-way drives that come in with uh twothirds of the parking in back of the building and one-third roughly in the front. And in the on the frontage there on Coachero Road, there's

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a piece of green space that's going to be left alone. And then, as I mentioned, in the lower corner, you can see a a uh detention pond that's going to serve as storm water management, which is of course required, very common type design for this type of project.

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>> Anybody have a laser? >> Okay. Thank you. >> And while we're paused, um, what was the date these were prepared? Well, I'd have to look at the map because it's uh >> 1022. >> Excuse me, 1022.

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>> So, of course, there's many professionals involved in something >> orient control road is it's on the right. >> Oh, sure. >> Thanks. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Trail is right here. >> Thank you. And of course, those are the

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two driveways coming in and a circulation plan around through the parking. Uh topographically, the site uh mainly drains towards the pond, which of course makes sense. Uh there is a piece of uh land in the back that we're not going to touch right back here, which is

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heavily wooded. That'll be left alone. And right now, uh, conveniently for our design, the topography is such of this, uh, piece of property that it's going to just drain the way it does. Uh, all this will, of course, drain offsite to an

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existing, uh, swale that's off our property. But as per modern storm water management principles, we're going to be actually discharging less than comes off the site. Now we are going to have water quality enhancements by using the inlets

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part of the storm sewer system. Uh there is no groundwater recharge here because the site is very dense clay. There's nothing that we can be done about that. So again that is the hardcourse problems with this site is the storm water management. The rest of it is a simple

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site plan involving topography, pavement, planting, lighting, all the things that you see on the plans. maybe take the board through a little bit of way the the building is oriented and the the um the entrance to the building. >> Okay, there's the two entrance to the

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building. Uh right here, access right off to the parking and in the rear there's a handicap entrance here. So, it's two access very convenient for the parishioners to pay off drop off people that are uh somewhat handicapped or need

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some assistance. And the the finished grades of this site are very conducive to walking. It's not a very steep site at all. Uh you know, you're talking about probably slopes in a range of two 3%. And uh you know the building is orientated in a sense as it faces the

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Catrell road and the I think with regard to the entrances and exits since you have double on both sides it's going to be very easy access but again that's not really my expertise that'll come later. >> And what about do is there any signage

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proposed on site? >> Yes, there'll be some signage out in front. >> That's a monument sign. trying to identify the church. >> That's correct. Um you could talk a little bit about the

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improvements along Catrell Road and and some of the waiverss that we're we're seeking from some of the TCD district uh requirements. >> Certainly. Um the improvements along the road are going to be as shown on the site plan. They're going to be, you know, some

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curves, some uh we have some storm drainage to deal with here, things like that. But essentially, the front of the site is going to be left fairly alone other than the entrance uh construction that we need.

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>> Then talk a little bit about the parking that is provided um and what's required based on the the number of seats. >> Okay. Yes. For a house of worship, the requirement is one space for per three seats in a sanctuary plus one space for

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each classroom. Uh with a total of 262 seats and five classrooms, the required parking is 93 spaces. Our site provides 94 spaces. Of course, that exceeds it by one. There's ADA parking on the site as

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shown in the site plan allow for easy access to the entrances. And there'll also be four level two charging stations for electrical vehicles as necessary also shown on the site plan. >> And then in addition to that, I think we have five uh make ready spaces.

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>> Yes, make ready is part of the EV uh charging. >> Okay. Um you talked a little bit about the the landscaping on site. How about lighting? How are we lighting uh the site? Well, the lighting is going according to the TCD standards and

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there's a detail on our plan showing the type. It's not on this sheet. There's a lighting plan that's part of the submitt. And you know, of course, lighting is important. It's all going to be shielded so that none of the lights spill off onto the adjoining properties.

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Also mainly contain, of course, to the entrances and to the parking lots. But we are meeting the standard for the TCD. We have a a couple of reports that we received. Obviously, we received the the larger report from Rakesh and and Vina.

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Um, and we've gone through them. There's no issues with complying with any of the technical requirements of those reports. >> No, normally, of course, there's a very detailed report which we have received. We've gone through it. We we see no issues whatsoever in meeting the

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requirements in those reports. And we're not seeking any relief with regard to the storm water uh uh regulations, parking, or the lighting requirements. We're going to comply with all of those standards. >> That is correct. >> Okay. And there's nothing in although it is what you've devoted your life to,

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there's nothing incredibly sexy to talk in front of the board about storm water management, but we all know that there's very strict regulations from the D which are followed by the township, and you're comfortable that the site can accommodate all of those regulations? >> Yes, I am. >> Okay. if you could take us through a little bit. We kind of have a list. I'm

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sorry. I want to back up. There's the fire review memo we received which you know, Mr. Chair and board members I always take very seriously and we have complied with the striping and requirements of the firemen. Is that is that correct? >> That is correct. >> And then there was also a shade tree memo that Gary issued and uh we'll we'll

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we'll work through that with him and and comply with his requirements that we we don't need any relief there as far as I've been told by my professionals. >> Compliance with both the fire and with the conservation. Yes. Yeah. And I think the fire the plans have already been amended to show the striping that was

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requested. Um so we're going to have Allison talk about the variances in more detail, but in order for Allison to do that, I need to get them on the record. So looking at the professional report plus I know our notes that we prepared, if you could just take the board through the variances that are required and then

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Gary, our architect will talk in more detail about the height variance and then obviously you've all heard Allison's testimony before. She'll take us through all of the variance relief in total, but I want to get it on the record. >> So, the variances are as listed here. minimum landscape area ratio, building

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height, parking requirements for the front parking spaces, parking lot landscaping, loading and unloading area, freestanding sign area and height, minimum buffer widths, and we're also asking for the design waiverss for

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street furniture and parking space size for a number of spaces that are 9 by 18. >> Thank you. Um, if I could, Mr. Chair, I know that the the landscaped area ratio is 40 5% where

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65%, you know, they're they're they're decimals, but they're percentages. >> Uh, and then the height um is 86 feet where 35 ft is permitted. However, religious structures are allowed to be much taller at 50 feet, but then we we

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exceed that. We got more to talk about uh with regard to that. Um fine. >> And then there's technical requirements with your parking uh which the parking islands and things like that that are probably uh more applicable when we have larger strip centers and things like

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that. And again the 9 by8 parking spaces uh is a common request of this board when it's not a heavily traffked uh area. So that's what's being requested. I have this is not an engineering heavy site. This is just follow all the rules, mostly storm water management. We have a

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little bit of wetlands on the property, but we already have a permit from the D, so it's a non-issue. Um, so Tom's available to answer any questions that you have. >> Clear that there's no need to put the county in because that section of section of trail is not

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>> it's all controlled by your engineer. >> Stops at 520. Stops at 56. >> Yep. Yeah. and and uh it's thank you for bringing that up because the board probably thinks you know Catrell Road, County Road, but it's not. Uh this is all under your jurisdiction in that area. >> And we agree. >> Yes,

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>> Mr. Dari. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um I don't really have a whole lot of questions. Our memo, we did have two memos on this on this uh application. One was uh from the initial submission. It was dated June. I don't know the exact date, but it was in June. Uh and the applicant did

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submit in August. revised plans to address that memo and then we produced a an updated memo which you should have that's dated October 14th. >> Yes. >> And um in that memo you see a lot of the and I won't cover the planning. It's it is a joint memo uh between my office and

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Vina's office. I I'll let Vina handle uh the planning because because as Mr. Clauser said engineering is not that sexy. Planning is uh so I'll let Vina handle that. But the uh but the the engineering portions have been addressed

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uh to to to a great extent. Uh the uh outstanding items I believe we can address uh as postapproval uh revisions to the plans. Uh so I don't really have any any concerns with that. I do have some questions just regarding the storm water management though. Um the concern

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I apologize the concerns that I did have is the uh there was no soil testing in the actual drainage basin. And I believe that there was testing done. There's a geotechnical report from probably uh an earlier um on in the process when the

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plans looked a little different. Um so there's no testing in the actual drainage basin and there's quite a bit of topographic change and then you have the wetlands pocket really that's that's where the stormwater basin is going because it's a low low part of the property. Do you have any concerns as to whether this

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drainage design uh will function without any major modifications? Uh the only reason I ask and I'll just before I let you answer that only reason I ask is it can get be modified but then at some point you get to a point where the modifications are significant enough

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where if there's changes to the site you may be required to come back for an amended uh site plan approval which again that I don't want to approach that topic without actually seeing the revisions but I'm asking you in your opinion whether you think the drainage design can be uh our comments can be addressed without significant

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modifications to to the actual layout. Uh the answer is yes. And the reason for that is originally we were thinking of having the uh detention pond in this area here and that's where all our soil logs were dug and due to uh design

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changes we decided to locate it over here because of the road access things like that. Uh we dug the heck out of this site and we have a soils report to back that up. And of course this area does contain a pocket of wetlands. The

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soils here are simply in an engineering sense are nasty which means they're mostly clay and organic material. There is really no infiltration whatsoever here. So while we we certainly probably because of the uh review letter we're

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going to go out there and have to dig two more test beds just to satisfy the requirement. But as far as I'm concerned professionally uh the pond here it doesn't matter if the pond's here or there. It is in a better location now given what the way the site plant looks.

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So professionally speaking, I'm 100% confident that once we dig the soil logs, we will have no difference in the design. Of course, we're not relying upon infiltration for this particular design. The pond is designed on a volume

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based upon calculations that will be more boring than the previous testimony just did. So, but since we're not require if we were requiring to use infiltration or we had the ability, the pond would be smaller. So, this pond is based upon the assumption that the soils

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are the same. But you are correct. We do have to prove it, but it's not going to change the design. >> Yeah. My my only concern was was the water table separation and things like that. But uh I guess not to not to put words in your mouth, but your your testimony is that the wetlands is really due to the the fact

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that you have these heavy surficial soils and it's not a groundwater condition that's causing the wetland pocket. It's surface water that's pooling and not having a place to go. >> It is the surface water that's causing the wetlands. >> I just wanted to get that on the record. But so given that I I don't think that

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there's uh I don't have any other comments. There are quite a few details which you know Mr. Clauser and um Mr. Olen uh Dr. Olen uh already indicated that they're able to address uh and I don't have any any

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concerns as to whether we can do that. I'm happy to answer any questions the board may have. >> Mr. Dar, next to to the uh I guess below the pond there, >> is there a small swale with water that runs through there? on the on our site.

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>> Not on your site. >> Oh, next to our site, uh, you know, below the pond, there is a swale in there. Oh, yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> And unfair to ask to you, but there was a brand new home put in there. It's not finished.

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>> Uh, I don't know whether that's it lower or higher. >> Uh, was any of that taken into consideration? >> I >> It's almost It's almost done. >> Yeah. as far as so when you say take into consideration uh from a stormwater standpoint that home does doesn't impact

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this property at all >> and vice >> and vice versa the yeah just to clarify and Mr. Alena can can probably uh speak to this better than I uh the discharge from this this basin is actually uh tied directly into the stormwater piping in

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Catrell Road. So the basin actually has a structure that will that will meter the water that that that it collects and discharge it into the drain system in Catrell Road directly to the pipe. And then the only time uh there would be discharge over land would be if the emergency spillway were to be activated

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in which case that water would then also discharge to control road and then go into the stormwater system or into that swale. But it it wouldn't impact at least I don't believe uh based off of the information we have that would impact that joining uh house. M

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>> uh I'll hold off for Allison because I know there are a couple of uh variances. So I'll stick uh I'll just wait for her to testify. >> I'm going to start on uh board members down to my left. Thomas, >> I have a question. I don't know if it's

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Yes. >> I don't know if this is the right part. I'm concerned about the steeple the top of the church. >> I think we're think that's going to be discussed. >> That'll be our next witness, the architect. >> Thank you very much, Tom. Uh you may be

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seated and uh I'll ask Gary to come up and and join us. Let's get you sworn. Uh, have your credentials placed on the record. Uh, Gary is a professional architect, licensed. Uh, and that's what I'm asking for the board to accept him as. >> Sir, would you raise your right hand?

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>> Do you swear or affirm to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help? >> Yes, I do. >> Would you state your full name and spell your last, please? My name is Gary Seagull. S G A L. I'm a licensed architect in the state of

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New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, and the Carolas. Uh and uh I've been um graduated from uh Pratt Institute with a bachelor in architecture about 40 years

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ago. Since then, I practice architecture. um having an office in New Jersey and um I've been accepted as an expert by 22 other municipalities in New Jersey.

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>> I figured after 40 years of experience can't say nothing. >> Thank you. >> We certainly accept his credentials and his expertise. >> Thank you, >> Gary. I I Moren is great at bringing up the different exhibits if you you know if you want to look at floor plans, you

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want to look at your elevations, but if you could just share uh with the board uh this beautiful building you designed, the reasons for its design and a little bit about the interior layout. >> Uh yes, All right. uh approximately

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two years ago. Um, I met u the parisher, met uh the board of trustees and um uh they they had a project for this uh

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church before uh I uh was joining the team of design and uh I'm glad to report today we rescued this building from being u pretty much the look of a let's say a

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long building with a just a little picked roof in the center and a cross in top pretty much like a Motel 6 with a cross in top. um

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was a long way and um we um and and and I I was blessed with uh clients uh boards of board of trustees and and the parishers and uh everybody I uh

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worked with to be open-minded and um I uh promised to myself and to them to come up with a design where uh first of all the cross is not going to be just a simple decoration but it's

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actually part of the building and um the same way it's not just a simple object somewhere um in this world. It is part of who we are and what we and how we

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feel and believe these days after 2,000 years. Um so um I visited the site. I spent some good hours there and um I

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was actually looking into my uh background or previous experiences. I did few churches before, few designs for uh house of worships and I and I was

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kind of uh waiting to to to receive the light to to see what what should be the design for this building. And I remember seeing myself on the side uh with my hands

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together and then all of the sudden um I was just walking and my hands were in this position. Uh I don't think I was praying but then it hit me then all of us we use this

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when we pray we use this gesture. Um and I say all of us as a generality. I'm not here to analyze everybody's belief, religion and so on. But as a generality kind of we all have this gesture. Uh we

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definitely don't have a gesture like this, right? We actually keep our hands together pointing up sort of like an antenna.

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Okay. And so I said um to myself that this is something that I should incorporate in the concept and um I brought these drawings here. Um they are in scale. Uh they are showing actually

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this steeple uh how represents our hands together and pointing up. uh we don't know if we should necessarily point up but that's that's the way we came up to

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believe and uh we look up when we pray and we wish for some good things to happen I don't think we look up and we pray for any bad things pretty much some good

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things to happen so anyway um I know we are all governed and after 40 years of experience being an architect and a professional planner. I'm not testifying as a professional planner. It would be a conflict of interest. But um that helped

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me to understand how my bu how my building will impact the neighborhood, the site and so on. Um and as a parenthesis I want to bring

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here to your attention that if um today's uh rules and regulation and zoning and environmental protection and all this would have been applied out there in Pennsylvania. Uh today we would

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not have a falling water house to admire by Frank Lloyd Wright. um to I consider also a mentor like all of us the architects being the guru of all of us. So um we would not have we

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would have to have a uh a house designed at least a 100 foot away from that uh brook or river and uh probably the French would not have Eiffel Tower. uh it happens to have also some kind of a

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uh outline like this staple although a lot bigger and many many other buildings in this world if we would apply all the zoning regulation and building codes and so on. So

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um I started by designing this building to comply with the code and zoning regulation. And that's why the entire building um I submit to you that is complying with the zoning regulation, the height

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and everything else. And um I'm going to use my little pointer here. I don't know if you could see. Do you see my pointer? Mhm. Okay. So the building up to the tangent of the roof, it's under the

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height limitation. Um and that goes for all the views that particularly in the right side is a uh rear elevation. Um uh the view uh next to it in the left side is a u left side

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elevation. And uh far there in uh in that corner we have a bird's eyee view. Uh these days would be a drone eye view but anyway so but the building is prepared to be

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coming in the world of the 21st century. Um not only with the look but also with what we have inside and all the amenities and so on. And uh now I want to address

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the reason for which we are here. The staple that is um encroaching in the height limitation. First of all I want all of us to be sure that we are u seeing this element in

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scale in scale in proportion with the entire site. So, I'm going to actually use this uh site plan, landscape plan where the building is here in the center. And um I will invite you to

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imagine that I can move one of the trees. You see this uh this uh round circles presenting the trees on the drawing. And um is this coming with me maybe? Yeah. Yeah.

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>> All right. All right. Uh, so I will take as an exercise one of these trees and put it here in the center of the building. That is the staple. That is the proportion of this

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element of the building that is encroaching the height limitation compared with the entire site. And as we know if if we have a huge building in front of us but we keep our

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hand like here like let's say two three feet in front of our eyes it will cover a 20story building. is just because the effect of the tangent of our eye. So all these trees and all this landscape

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it will cover a lot that single element in the center of the building and I kind of calculated as a approximation that this element is about the tense part

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like one two three four five and one two three four five so it's the tense part of this dimension and it's about the fifth part of this dimension. So we learn in the geometry that if I

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take 10 * 5 it's 50. So this element is the 50th part of the building. So we are not here to ask the permission

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to take the contour of this building and go up to the height of the stipple. That will be unreasonable. I will not be the one to design that. But actually the center our antenna

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to be allowed to to be higher than this building and actually um is this transferring here? Yeah. Great. Great technology. So, uh, so for us not

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to have a building, should you not approve this, uh, proposal, not to have a building that makes our hands to look like this when

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we pray, but to let us have a building that suggests that we can keep our hands like this when we pray. And I know we are governed by rules and regulation and very much AI

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explanations and so on. But still we come in that Sunday in the morning to this place to look for some sublimal subliminal message or some kind of a um

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some kind of uh feeling beyond this AI and all the others that I mentioned before. So you might figure by now we the architects we are only half like

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engineers. The other half of our heart is like an artist. So you heard me talking from both points of view. That's all I have to say on my own but I'm ready to answer to any question. Just before we jump to that, I think it's

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important that if we can bring up some of the floor plans, if you could just kind of just spell out how the how the the interior of the church just laid out. I think the board's entitled to >> to be able to see that. >> So, uh, this is the basement plan, but

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I'm not going to spend time with this. We're going to go directly into the first floor. >> All right. Let's give Moren a second to bring up that first floor elevation so the board can see it. And these are the plans that were submitted. >> So that should be basement. We can go

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past that. >> Yeah, we can go ahead. Yeah, this is the first floor. >> There we go. >> Yeah. So with this uh soft forms here we actually uh invite pretty much again I'm looking

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again to to the hands of somebody's who's uh embracing the visitor uh inviting with this concave shape into the entrance. This is the entrance main entrance.

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Um it is inspired actually from the old architecture, classic architecture of cathedrals where you have this stepping element and then a big double door and coming

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here into the heart of the building directly rather than going through various vestibules and so on. So just few steps further is the auditorium or I'll say the

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uh the main um sanctuary and uh this sanctuary is actually designed to use natural light and I'm going to point here on the rear elevation where you see this

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light. >> Let's mark that A2 rear elevar elevation. To understand a little bit what are those stripes of glass, I would invite you to look on the side view where you see that actually the roof

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um is stepping down from the top pretty much like big shingles. roof shingles with some space in between allowing for the glass to bring the natural light inside.

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Whether we may supplement this with some uh interior lights uh that that remains to uh to to be seen depending on the activity uh that takes place um in the sanctuary. Um on the right side we have

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a uh dining hall uh for uh events uh that is subdividable for smaller events and we have a number of computer classes. I mean

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I might be sounding now like a dreamer but we are down on earth and we teach computers so in this building. So, uh we have the computer classes, we have the pastor's office and the meeting room and

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um uh administrative offices, um bathrooms, uh prep preparation, kitchen uh um area and um a stage the backstage

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uh for uh some events and exits as required by the fire department. So this is the first floor. Um I'm going to go and explain the mezzanine or the second floor which is a

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partial u partial second floor. Uh but we'll go back if you have any questions. Um and the mezzanine floor plan on page A4 if we can bring it up. Okay,

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I think we passed it. Yeah, no problem. This is the roof plan. Okay, so this is the mezzanine has a partial seating pretty much like in a theater where you have a balcony and few

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other functions there for a studio recording studios and storage and um uh the staircase and a small bathroom and that's about it. The rest is

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actually a uh uh open to below uh area below being uh open towards the sanctuary. So the sanctuary is a twostory space uh gradually coming down

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to a onetory by the stage. Uh it has functions also as a u um phonic reflection. So it is my guess based on other projects I did and other good

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examples already done by others uh that probably will have a very good u uh sound uh propagation without artificial speakers and so on but we'll see about that. Um

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these are the floor plans. Um >> yeah, Gary, that's that's great. That's what I wanted to share with the board. And I think just maybe briefly for the board's >> uh information. >> Um what what do you expect uh to be sort of like the exterior materials that would be used and maybe what you will

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end up in sort of a color scheme? >> Right. We uh as a color scheme, we trying to be subdued. Um we we're still gravitating between some pallet of colors as you could see um in the right

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side uh renderings. Uh we might be u even in the gray tones as you see on the rendering uh and the left side uh the material are uh anodized aluminum for

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the roof. basically trying to be as much as possible maintenancefree. Um and some uh stone and stco eventually uh acrylic staco but will be with a

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cementicious base. So needless to say it's not going to be anything uh as those uh systems on styrofoam. That's out of questions. So um these are the material and um there there is some

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elements of design um as you see here on the staple uh where you see panels is pretty much as we would build piece by piece and uh with all the struggles over

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the past 2,000 years that uh uh brought us where we are today. And that is the meaning of those petals on the roof. So um

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uh the material like I said is a um aluminum and stone and uh um energy conservation glass you know e-lass and so on. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, >> Mr. Chair, I have no further questions

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uh for for Gary. He's available to the board and your professionals for any questions you have. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. I appreciate Mr. Chair. >> I appreciate your patience. >> Thank you. >> I don't have any questions. Chairman,

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>> I'm just trying to think actually. So, uh I mean I I truly appreciate uh your efforts um the thought process, the sentiments behind the design and uh I

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can relate to some of it because I have a background in architecture myself. Um but the issue comes with the zoning laws and the height, right?

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I was just looking at our township's ordinance and and Gary, I'm a fan of your work. I have seen your work elsewhere. Uh too, um I like the modern take. Um I every time and I I know you'll take it as a compliment. Every

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every time I uh see your work, it reminds me of Howard Rock from Fountain Head. >> Oh, wow. >> Thank you. So um I I do um I I I I understand the emotions and the design um the uh the

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study of the architecture as well but the issue comes with the height of the steeple and um in any of the zones in the town in the township the highest we have gone and that too uh it's the SD5

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zone where nobody sees it 65 ft. I have not seen any structure that goes up to 86 ft. And you saw it in my memo too, so you knew kind of what I'm going to say.

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That would be my concern that once a a structure that tall is allowed in the township, we setting a procedent too. Um we have had other applications where similar requests were made and we

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had asked them to work with us to shrink the height. Um and I do understand the concept of you know having concave folded hands versus this when you want to get the height but again it sets a

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precedent and uh it's a huge ask the difference in the height what from what is allowed. So I would have my concerns about it. Um and I don't know how the board feels. Uh so I would just hold

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off. >> Would I uh make a comment on on your observation? Um as we all know and being an expert to testify in many other municipalities, we all learn rule number one. When you

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apply for a variance, do not mention some other example in the neighborhood or in the township that created the president of your application saying well the neighbors across the street or

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somewhere they got the variance and now we are here asking >> but for something >> but that I'm sorry to cut you off but that is okay when you are a developers uh professional me as the planner who uh kind of um oversees the land use and the

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ordinances. It is a valid comment or concern for me to make that you know it sets a procedent. It it um it it breaks the usual character. So I would wait to hear back from Allison on the proofs

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because I know she does an excellent job. So, uh, I want to hear her maybe some of the buffering and landscaping, but still I don't know how you could justify that huge a variance. And so I

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would I would you know stop here and maybe have the board give >> uh I don't know if I mentioned but part of the height we have the actual cross of approximately 10 to 14 ft uh which as

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a uh staple or um decor roof decoration uh not pointing to the cross but other roof decorations and staples of the roof. from my experience they are not considered u into the height of the roof

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whether is a real antenna talking about uh these days we don't need any more antennas but uh or a skylight or a sky dome or something like that um do not count into the height we have 10 to 14

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feet um I have to look probably 14 feet is the actual uh cross still doesn't bring it to the 65 I wonder that 65 when was approved how was considered as a president to the

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previous approvers? >> No, that's not what I'm It's not another church that had 65 ft. It's it's the tallest building in the township would not exceed 65 ft. That's what I'm trying

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to say. So um we and I have to go back and check because I know this board also approved St. Mary's Church where we had a similar discussion but I my recollection is that including the cross

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it wasn't this high. There was some um variance issued so I have to go back and check the records but I think we should get an idea of the what the No problem. >> Thank you. Actually, it's it's a beautiful building.

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Beautiful. Um, >> thank you. >> I I just envision it where it is and it's overtaking. It's It's not fitting in and and it it's

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just gorgeous. If if it was on 20 acres, I think it would be magnificent, but I just not sure about the lot size. My drawing as a approximate view is not in scale perfectly but I have to mention

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and based on the edges of the asphalt shown there for parking is showing a view that ends here. This is the building. The view ends here and here. In other words, if I would have to

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show the entire side, the street is where is my hand and the back of the property, it's about here. So I I would say

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we should not judge as how much of the site is really overtaken by this building considering that actually the site is from here where the street is and to the counter.

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So then you would see that actually one little needle here doesn't really make this building to be this high. The building is where it is. And if we

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eliminate this, we would have a building that doesn't require variance but easily could be taken as a sport court or a arena or a gym or

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maybe a catering house. So the question is in this evening if we going to let it be a church without all the time that we know sticking a cross in top of a building now is a

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church but actually the building here is the church because it incorporates this element. I thank you for your your comments. Um I would point out that we are able to locate aside from the the cross and the

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and the steeple. The building is located on the site in a manner where we do not require any setback relief from our uh our our um from our sideyards or our front yards. So we do that building does fit on the site and we're not asking for a floor area ratio variance. We we do

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have the square footage, but I I appreciate your comments. I would just point that out that yeah, I think what draws the attention here is is that that spire. >> My concern is the spire is the steeple. I'm sorry. It I find it a little too

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high. If you can work to bring it down a little bit, I'm all for praying spirituality and spirituality coming together to, you know, I I love your design of the church. I love the fact that people can come together as a unit, but my concern is just that steeple that

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it has to come down some because I find it excessive. >> Thank you. >> You're very welcome. >> I Yeah, I actually have a couple questions. Um, regarding the pews or the seats or or and that, how many seats are

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there in the bottom and the top? >> I guess I don't know if they're pew seats. I guess I'm asking the capacity of >> 200. >> I could tell you >> the bottom and 90. >> The sanctuary is made up of 262 seats >> and the mezzanine. >> That's all.

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>> Oh, that's with it. >> Yeah. I don't What about the dining hall? because you said there's um I thought I saw tables and everything in there. So, >> yeah, the dining hall is less than a half seating. >> The seating 130 like how many seats are

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in the dining hall are you planning on using in the dining hall? >> I I just think it's a flexible room, but there was a commitment from the applicant that no two things would happen at the same time other than >> That's where I was getting at like we we I've learned this with religious uses uh

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with fellowship halls. I I have to have a commitment and a a condition in the resolution that two things can't happen at once because otherwise we blow up parking. Um the only thing that happens at the same time is the little kids go into Sunday school while the adults are

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in the the thing. But we do meet your parking requirements and I would completely agree to a condition that we can't have two things happening at once. There's not going to be a wedding while there's church service. >> Okay. Or Okay. >> Or or anything. >> Right. That was my that was my concern because it just looked massive if you had both areas. Um,

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>> no, the church buildings need to be flexible. >> Oh, no. I get why they're flexible, but you see where I'm getting at where a lot of them don't have that big to do. >> Um, I also just want to put on the record. I do >> also have a concern over the height of the cross. Okay.

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>> Um, I totally get praying. I'm Catholic. I totally get the fact that there's a cross on the building and it's a church. Um, but there is also neighbors. So, you know, now you're putting this massive cross on a building. God forgive me. I'm

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not saying it's not warranted, but it's it has to also blend in with the neighborhood that it's beautiful and I totally get where it's coming from, but it's too massive for that neighborhood. And just on another note, which I think

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I know the question, but I just want to ask it anyway. Um, is the cross going to be lit? Is there any lighting in >> there is in the cross? >> There is light uh designed to be inside the cross. >> So, the cross will be lit at night.

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>> So, the cross itself is not lit, but it projects out light in three directions, left, right, and up. >> Okay. Um >> that could be a concern maybe when the

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lighting person comes up because I don't know how that's gonna >> we I study personally that part uh will not reach any of the neighboring properties because exactly the height is above

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>> but it will be glaring >> will be glaring. >> It'll be glare if you're a property that's across the street and you're looking at this glaring cross. Now the >> So that was my only concern. >> Yeah. the the glaring and the amount of light. It will be definitely adjusted

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not to raise any complaints in that direction, but definitely it's not going to be a neon sign. >> We also can put things on timers and find a reasonable time at night. >> I'm just trying to think of it. If I live there across the street, and again, I'm Catholic. I get across. I'm not >> God forgive me. You know, I just

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>> You're bringing no smite with us. I I get the praying, but I don't think God would mind if the steeple was slower. That's all I'm saying. He's more concerned with the people inside it than the height of the cross. >> I am listening. >> Would you be able maybe to give us a little bit of guidance talking about

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lower? Uh are we talking about becoming approvable if we lower it to match the 65 ft >> or the 70 ft or >> Yeah. I'm just giving you my >> Yeah, I'm not in a rush to get to the

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finish line on that. I'd like to hear comments and then, you know, I always work with your professionals and we'll we'll figure out a happy medium where I I am delighted by the comments from that side of the board about how you like the church. I'm sure the church is that's who he is here um is very glad to hear

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it. We're going to make you happy. We're we we're gonna figure it out. >> Mr. Ina, what is you said 50 feet? I need I need to mentally see numbers. >> So, what I was trying to say is that if

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you look at our zoning schedule for heights, right, the tallest we allow any structure um is 65 ft and um that is allowed in

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the SD5 zone. Um I also know that one of the uh redevelopment plans that was written for a warehouse has 65 ft as the allowed height. However, that 65 ft was

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only allowed on one of the warehouse because it is enveloped by wetlands and transition areas. So that building won't be really seen from anywhere. It is in in literally in the middle of wooded areas so you won't see it but that was

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65 but that's that's that's what I was indicating that 65 is what we have gone at the max I don't know what other houses of worships have uh I haven't

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done that analysis and maybe if um hero is going to come back um they can the planner can do that analysis and come up with a a height that is more acceptable or that could blend in with

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the surroundings. I understand a height variance would be required because this is different. It's a house of worship, not a warehouse. But uh I think there has to be some rationale. The 85 seems to be significantly high. I I also rec

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recollect that recently there was an application uh for a billboard that came in front of the same board where they were proposing a significantly high I think that was 65 ft and we made them lower it. Uh so I

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think height has always been a concern of this board. So I'm I'm I think there has to be some little more thought given into the height of it. >> I would like to make sure that we all understand the same when you mention 65

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ft for that particular building. I'm not applying this to our project refers to the entire contour of the building. Meaning >> that >> you have to imagine that let's assume I comply with 65 ft. The entire building

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would be 65 ft will be a lot worse in my opinion than one needle that's 85 in the center and the building here it's 15 feet. This line from here

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the eve of the roof is 15 feet. I'm I'm sorry to cut you off but I we get that and that is why I even gave an example of the billboard right that um there were concerns uh about because here we are setting a

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proced once we approve a certain height there is always uh a chance that somebody else comes in and asks for that height. So we have >> cell phone towers. >> Those are different. >> President, >> those are completely

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>> Terry, you're not winning this argument tonight. >> Thank you for your valiant effort. Your your clients are very proud of you. >> Let's let's >> let's let's go back to Mr. Sure. >> So and and also Peter one more reason

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why I think we we need to regroup as professionals is uh Rakkesh and I have been talking about the roadway width because now we're seeing that with the sidewalk and everything the road crell

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road is narrowing. I remember I sat in a pre-application meeting just yesterday where Nicole was asking them to give a dedication. I don't recall because we had a meeting long back. Um I need some

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input like we need some input from Nicole too because this is uh this side of Catrell is ours like old oldridge township is responsible for this side beyond uh 527 is county so we we need to

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look at that because maybe all your improvements might have to move on to your side of the property so that the road doesn't uh narrow >> we can discuss that. Yeah. >> Right. We'll hook up with Ricash and and go through that. >> Right. Right. So I I think maybe a

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technical review meeting to go over with your professionals and us and we can brainstorm to see how much you could lower even the steeple because because it's also in a way like Gary had explained it's engineering too. I might

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say bring it down 20 but he might not be able to get that curve. So maybe having that meeting and sitting down and talking might be helpful so that I can report back to uh the board too that you

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know this is what was discussed and these are the constraints. >> Yeah, I I think I'm very comfortable with getting to Frank and getting to Allison and then taking a pause and just sort of figure out where we're going. Completely understand the comments. There is a reason that I am here tonight

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asking for this. Um, you know, you got to ask. You know, when God tells you, you ask. So, I understand the board's concerns. I don't want you to think I'm being disrespectful by just saying I want this giant thing. I'm doing the best I can for my client, but we're listening. I want them to hear you. I'd

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like to finish up our testimony and then we can decide where we're going to go. >> You're shooting up 85 feet. >> The the the cross is 80 foot, >> which is about 35 ft higher than what would be permitted. >> That would be the top of cross. the cross >> and the cross is >> about 14 feet. I think that's what Gary

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testified to you about >> 14 feet for the cross >> standing in the street. I look at at the building at the structure trees that would be in the front they have a height >> the if if you are on the street and you

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are behind even the lower landscaping uh shrubs bushes forget about the trees that will cover the building about 80%

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>> vanishing point yes because the paralle the the angle. You see, if we make a mistake on Earth for 0.00001 degree, we wouldn't reach the moon will be lost in space by the time we get

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there. So, this is exactly the angle of our view. My example is if you keep your hand in front, you will cover the whole room. Yeah. And it's just the size of the

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hand. So this particular uh staple will be lost in between the trees. The landscaping partially not seen. Leave alone that to my knowledge

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is not a lot of walking on cotrell is driving. I don't think anybody will even notice. And if we decide to lower this design by 20 feet, uh there will be no drivers to come to the building

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department or the zoning department and say I appreciate >> Thank you. >> He made me lose my >> I know what he did. I know what he did. >> Also, I would like to look in the room. I don't see too many neighbors

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really pissed from this. That's where I was trying to >> go around next. So now you have you have trees, you have everything. >> Yeah, >> no. >> We believe it blends very well. But you're the zoning board. >> That's it. Good.

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>> What's the highest trees around the building? >> The trees? Yeah. The heights? >> Uh somewhere around 40 ft. >> Not as tall as the proposed uh steeple, right? >> No. Although they may grow in time, but that

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we don't count on that. >> According to the plan, the actual cost is 16.4. >> I'm sorry. According >> 16, >> is it okay? >> And then uh your roof is 35, right? >> Yes. Yes. >> So that if you wanted 8, that leaves a

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difference of 51 feet to play with. I mean, suppose think I want you to just think a little bit about this. Suppose we were talking about >> children. >> Yeah. >> With smaller fingers.

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>> They might appreciate they might appreciate as well as the neighbors. >> Uhhuh. >> Bringing the cross down some. >> Right. >> Just a thought. >> The question is on uh Golgota Tower, Golgota Hill,

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>> the hill of Golgota. how many childrens were and how many adults were. >> You see, >> understood and I and I hope and I hope you got what I was going through. Yeah. >> The church that we were talking about uh and Mr. Clauser may recall I don't I don't think it was yours was St. Raields

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on Old Damboy Road >> and it was a a repurposed it had been repurposed a couple times. It was a food market prior to that. St. Rael St. Mary Rael uh u took that over and they had a a prominent cross that uh directed out

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onto Route 9 north. It would be on the northbound side. Uh and that was I believe 50 foot at top. So I I think in for commonality uh and I know this is a partic it's a be and I and I I was mesmerized by his and I said that

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I think that there's some kind of middle ground that I'm hoping for the neighbors sake and uh I think just for I I don't know that it ruins the beauty of the building bringing it down some. I think

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it's it's got a marvelous and a very appealing uh structure. Uh the the glass in the back, I don't know if you know, but faces west. I don't know if that was on purpose.

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>> West. >> Yes. Yes. >> So the sun would come in after noon time. So, I think you put a lot of thought into it, but I don't know that it would harm uh if perhaps there was some middle ground where that spire the spire could be taken down if you need

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that cross and it's it's very prominent at I guess 164 perhaps the spire could be lowered. I have only one concern because it's sort of a statement you made um with an exclamation sign and some little

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question mark at the end by >> I didn't give the pron I didn't give the punctuation you did you determined >> I did by by you mentioning that I don't know if this is going to make a difference or will be detrimental to the building in my 40 years of experience

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um and I I gain this ability to imagine the volume before I need to put it on the computer and rotate and we all had this kind of uh examples in our life where we saw

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some kind of a robotics about the volume of a of a particular building or a sculpture or something and so I imagine this now I have to point that it is quite spread this building is not a small building. It's not a tall

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building, but it's spreaded. It's a sort of like a translation of a ranch house. It's not a twostory house really. And um I'm only afraid that just for us to be,

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how should I say, to be good in front of any neighbors that will come and will say, "Hey, you see as a board we we lowered we lowered it. We we brought it down and I'm only afraid that we'll end up with a bump in

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top of a building. You know, a bump is because it's so actually I'll go in this side. See, this is a large building.

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Um let's imagine and we stop here maybe here and all of the sudden we have some sort of like a irregularity in top of this building. What's what's in that top of the building? Ah it's a cross. Ah,

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it's a church. But that the cross becomes again stuck there as a almost quote and coat decoration is is losing to be part of the building to be part of the

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steeple because all the cathedrals that we know and whoever crossed the pond and went back to the all the Europe and visited we we know and or if not in from

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pictures and movies. We know that these cathedrals they're very tall. One of the tallest is in uh Germany uh it's somewhere about u 200 m. Now for everybody to know 200 m means

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times three it's about 600 ft up right built about 800 years ago. Yeah we are in 21st century and we are doubting that plus minus 20 ft will make

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the difference for the neighborhood. >> Thank you Gary. Understood. >> Well, I agree uh that there are larger structures, sir. The board the board doesn't make decisions because of

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affirmation from the neighbors. Make decisions based on the merits of the application. Anderson, >> it's magnificent. It's an unbelievable. It's just beautiful. I happen to come from an area where we had a church in

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1964 was built like the Vatican pavilion. So I know but unfortunately it was not in a residential area. Um, I'm afraid quite honestly the way I'm visualizing it. The only way I could see

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it if you lower the height is if you narrow it a bit because I think changing it from the way it looks here. Uh, I think you would lose a lot of the beauty of the building because I think I call it steps to heaven. The way that you have it, I just think it's it's

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beautiful. Um, aside from that, I also wanted to know what else is on the second floor. Uh, is there an elevator? How many staircases? >> So, the second floor is a small mezzanine seating

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uh for about a quarter of what is the cap capacity of the sanctuary on the first floor. Um it has some recording studios and other um spaces which are not open to the

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public but rather for administrative reasons is the staircase and we don't have an elevator for that area because all the u barrierfree seating will be at the first floor.

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I was just thinking of it because of the of the handicap, >> right? Most people with >> Yeah, we will make sure we have and we have actually designated like in all the movie theaters, theaters, opera seating are at the first floor

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>> also. Uh there was supposed to be a school. I believe they had a school. Um yes, there. And where were the classman classrooms? So first computer room. Yeah, first floor and basement, but mainly first floor. We have a number of classrooms,

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>> computers. >> And what else is in the basement? >> Uh, if we go down to the basement, we have a mechanical area. We have janitors. We have actually a lounge for kids. We have like a sort of a

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kids playroom. Yeah, playroom area. Um there is a large unfinished area which we are not sure of what designation of use will be in the future. At this point for financial reason we leave it unfinished

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and um so um these are the areas. Now I want to point that under the sanctuary we have no basement. So uh the sanctuary the the

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auditorium the sanctuary is on a slab. One of the reason is because the floor it's slanted in such a way that you have a um amphitheater feeling and seating is much more

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comfortable if the floor is slanted. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Thank you, Miss Andrews. me. I just uh wanted to say, Peter, I don't know if you want to put your planner on if the plans are subject to

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change. I don't know. >> Yeah, let let's uh Good point. I I want to talk to my client. U but I Let's maybe we can get Frank up here. It's not really a trafficheavy uh item, but we can probably knock him out pretty quick and then if you give me, you know, my

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usual five minutes or so, I'll figure out what I'm going to do. >> Absolutely. Okay. >> Thank you very much. Is she all right? >> You okay? Good. >> Okay. So, our next witness is Frank Misovich.

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I think you might know him. Uh, and uh, he's our traffic engineer, but we got to for posterity, we got to get him on the record. >> Do you swear or affirm to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Please state your full name. Spell your last. >> It's Frank Misovich spelled M I S K O V

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as in Victor. I C. And >> just for the TV, tell them. >> I I will. Uh, tough act. It's a difficult act to follow what I listen to. >> Either way, you're a frequent flyer here, so we know. >> But I appreciate Dr. Owen being from

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North College of Engineering because I'm a 69 graduate of the college uh with a bachelor's in civil engineering and I finished my masters at North College in Engineering, but they only gra had graduations once a year. So by the time it came around to the spring, it was

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NGIT. But I do have uh 50 plus years in area transportation, traffic and highway engineering and I've been before this. >> Thank you, Mr. Mskovich. Yes, you have. You've been here many, many times. Mr. Mskovich's

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>> after hearing NJIT for all of these years with all of my professionals. I did a campus tour with my daughter a couple of weeks ago because she's interested in architecture and we went to NJIT. I finally know it does exist. >> NCE was right down the block from my high school, St. Benedict, right? Oh yeah. Good.

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>> Frank, if you could just take them through your analysis of the site. Frank's been with us from the beginning and been providing guidance to the church. >> Just a little bookkeeping item for the record. We did do a traffic report back in May of 2004 24, I'm sorry. Your your consultants review that uh the traffic

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engineer and everything. They provided a report uh on June 25, 2025. and then I prepared a written response point by point to their traffic comments. I then submitted a supplemental report September 26 of 2025

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that included all those comments that I did uh by separate letter. So that brings us up to date. I would also say I was involved with this project in 2013 when it was Grace Bible Church and they were looking to build a much smaller

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facility and that didn't go anywhere. So it's I've been in this area for a long time and having said that uh my observations of traffic conditions, roadway conditions, this section of Catrell Road have not changed much in those years. Physically it's the same as

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it was back then. Uh and this is a municipal road. It's not a county road even though we did get a county approval uh which didn't have any traffic comments. So there were only maybe other related but there was no traffic comments. Uh to address that traffic

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impact, we did have a traffic machine put out on the roadway where we counted traffic for over a week at 15 minute intervals and that was from seven days at least. And the purpose of that is to determine not only the volumes but when the peak periods were when the morning,

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evening, weekday rush hours were and where Sunday peak hours were uh for the church service. And why that is important because it goes to speaking to the house of worship conditional use that is in your ordinance which I'll get to in a minute. But there's only one

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service on Sunday morning. And believe it or not, that occurs while the peak traffic volume on Sunday is occurring. So there's no traffic in or out from the church during those periods. It's before that and it's after that because it's about a two and a half hour separation

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from the start of service to the end. There's a Bible study during the week uh and they from about 6:00 or 7 to 7:30 the peak hours about 5 to 6. So people start coming in towards the end of that but they're leaving much after the peak

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when volume is about 40% less. So it's not affecting the peak hour traffic on road to any significant extent. U we projected traffic out uh several years to 2029. I had an open request to the

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township to determine what other developments are in that area that might add traffic to to this particular area. There was a single family house that was approved. That's not really a significant traffic generator. The only other project was a the Catrell

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development over on corner of 516 and the Catrell Road, the souththeast corner, 37,000 plus square foot shopping center, which has not been built yet, but we included all that traffic into our projections. And to pro provide a conservative

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estimate for the board, we didn't look at them traffic coming for church service before the peak hour and after. I said, "Let's take all the traffic in and out during the one-hour period when the volume on control road is the highest." We did that for Sunday. We did

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that for the weekday Bible study. And I said, "We have two driveways. Worst case is once concentrated driveway. That would present the worst case scenario." We did it that way. The left turn in was level service A. We took A, very good, down to F, which is bad. Exiting

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movement was a level service B. So there's very little delay for traffic exiting that service even though we're at the peak times with the two driveways. Obviously it's going to be less uh because it's separated. But I would point out that the driveways are about 200 feet separated. That's about 8

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to nine car lanes separation. So there's good distance there. Uh but I also looked at the driveway. The northerly driveway to the top of your picture is about the same location that's currently there and it's opposite a driveway to a single family home across the way. The

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southerntherly driveway is also aligned with a driveway opposite on the opposite side. So there's really no headlight glare if you will during the winter hours directly into those buildings. It's into I call the service area of those buildings. So that works out very

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well. your traffic consultant was concerned. Do I need a left turn lane? A control road. So I took an analysis of that. We looked at the capacity analysis say the estimates about a queue that would be for the left turn. The

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calculation show about one car and at the particular time that's not very high. But we also looked at there's warrants that the New Jersey Department of Transportation uses the county and basically everybody else in in the state that looks at opposing volumes and that

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volumes that are advancing the left turn in the through volumes. I looked at that criteria and again it didn't show that a left turn lane was warranted. And when you consider it's only for short periods of time, two really two days a week that you have any significant. It's not a

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real traffic impact. You heard about parking. We do comply with the parking requirement. The sanctuary and the 200 seats. The balcony is 62. That 262 it requires 90 plus the five I should say classrooms

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requires 93 spaces. We have 94 if I were just to look. So we meet the ordinance requirement for parking. Miss Benella, you had a concern with the fellowship poll with the bio and what that might be. There's 200 seats there. So even at full capacity at that ratio that's like

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67 spaces needed. So we're still okay uh for that parking and as was testified to will be part of the record is that those ser those activities do not occur simultaneously. They were separated. So I do not see that creating a particular

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problem with the overlap. Now the other condition I want to point out the house of your ordinance has a house of worship conditional use requirement. It requires that the volume, the capacity on the roadway not exceed 0.8.

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We're at 0.1 with this traffic added. Uh it will not increase peak hour volumes by 10%. We're the Bible study is about 6.4%. Uh and that's at full capacity. It doesn't even affect the Sunday traffic because we're not even at the peak hour.

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uh also the level of service would not be reduced to level of service F or at A and B. So we far exceed that requirement. So all three conditions are met for your experience for the conditional uses

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and I that was really be all with the traffic. Uh if there's any other questions that I can go into further the board has or your professionals. I >> have no further questions Frank. So, he's all yours. >> Separate drivers.

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>> No, we're proposing those as two two-way driveways. And when you think about that separation, anybody that's arriving from the south will use that southern driveway and exit that way. If you're coming from Catrell of a 516 area, you'll use that north one. So, it

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provides good separation. >> Yes. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, as Mr. Mskovich mentioned, he he actually did prepare a supplemental traffic assessment which addressed many of our uh comments, just about all of our

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comments uh with regard to the traffic assessment. So, I don't have any questions regarding the traffic assessment. Um, the only questions that I had is Frank, were you involved at all with the the actual site layout or anything like that or or this really the accesses is what I'm talking about.

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>> No, not really. Um, >> as far as sight distance or anything, we asked for sight triangles and all that. So, >> no, I was not involved with that, but that's I did check that myself. I'm sorry. >> Yeah, that's what I checked that myself and and you have very good sight lines both to the north and to the south and I

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know it exceeded the requirements for the the speed limit, >> right? >> Uh, I just offhand don't remember that, but there was really no sight obstructions. >> You evaluated the site site distance and and you feel it's adequate? >> Yes. And if you want that, I can provide that information to you.

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>> No, I think we asked for the site triangles to be shown on on on the plans and and and um Dr. Olen agreed to do that, I imagine, through just the the blanket agreement with our with our memo. So, I think that'll be fine. But I just wanted to get your traffic engineer's opinion on that. Uh the other

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question I had was with regard to the the turn-in radi. Um and this is not in our memo. It's just something I noted uh looking at the plan. They're like five foot radi which which um do you think that it would be beneficial to have maybe slightly larger radi at the

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accesses >> in this particular case? No. Okay. And the reason I say that is you got to look activity. If this was a lot of traffic in and out, a lot of parking maneuvers, then you would maybe want a little bit larger radius to to make it easier.

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>> But you come for the service, you're in and you're done. you're gone and there's really nothing for the rest of the day, lack of better terminology. But >> so do you think because given the volume that the five foot sufficient? >> I think the volume and the activity the volume activity and how long people

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really stay and all the parking maneuvers >> because all the all the trips are either in all at once or out all at once. >> Yes. >> Okay. All right. That's all I have, Mr. Chairman. I don't have any other questions. >> What?

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>> I don't have any questions. No, sir. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Okay, here's my five minute break, Mr. Chair. >> Thank you. >> Recess. We've returned from uh brief recess.

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Miss Pelli, could we have a roll call, please? >> Certainly. >> Mrs. Andrews, >> present. >> Miss Gomez, >> here. >> Mr. Iso, >> here. >> Miss Spanelli, >> here. >> Mr. Singh, >> here. >> Miss Fernbeck, >> here. Chairman Sullivan >> here. >> Mr. Malin

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>> here. >> Mr. Darie >> present. >> Miss Savant. >> All right, we we've turned back to 33 uh 2024 Zeke Community Bible Fellowship Church. We just heard from their last witness for the evening, Mr. Mister. We

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go back to you, Mr. Clauser. >> Thank you, uh, Mr. Chair. Um, so I think the board knows me at this point pretty well. I've listened to your comments very carefully. I believe that there is a middle ground um that we can find. Um

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we made the effort to present the application to you as our desire. Now we have to figure out a way to make sure it works for everybody in the room. Uh so I'm going to ask if the application there's no point in putting Allison on. Uh number one, timing wise, and number

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two, you want your planner on when what we're asking for is complete. Um, so I would ask that the board agree to carry the application to your next available meeting. I we don't have a lot of heavy lifting to do here in order to make changes. Um, and and that it be carried without the requirement of further

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notice or publication. We do have a a church here and those notices cost lots of money. So if I could uh ask that it be carried, I'd appreciate it. >> What do we have, Miss Portelli? >> July 16th. >> July 16th. >> Yes. I'm >> That's what's next. >> That's my next open. Even if I promise

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I'm going to be really quick. >> Okay. >> I I don't do the scheduling. >> If that's >> what's that? >> I'm assuming you'll be really quick on July 16. That's why you're on July 16. >> Okay. Listen, that's what it is.

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>> Um >> we have to go to a public portion on this matter yet any >> Okay. So, you have anything you want to say before that? >> No. No, not yet. No. >> Okay. No. >> I'll give you I'll give you time at the end of the public. >> No, not even tonight. >> Not even tonight? >> No. No. Go to the public and let's all go home.

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>> All right. Thanks. And I want to thank all your professionals for their testimony tonight and and yourself. Uh this this is matter 33-2024Z Community Bible Fellowship Church locations 442 Catrell Road. We're going to open this up to public portion. the public portion. It means that you can

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come up and speak as to this application. You may have questions or concerns that you want to put on the record. Because this is quasi judicial, you will be put under oath and we would ask for your name and address. Anybody that wishes to speak on this, we're going to put a microphone up uh right

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here in the center. And if you raise your hand, I'll recognize each and every one of you as you come as you stand. Anyone here have anything that they want to say tonight? Please raise your hand. There will be other public portions because we're going to re we have

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another meeting on this. But uh anything tonight from anybody? Last call. >> I see none. In that case, I'll close the public portion for the evening. This back to you, Mr. Clauser. >> Thank you. I would just ask that you announce the carrying of the application to July 16th and we're good.

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>> I will. Uh this matter 332024Z Community Bible Fellowship Church will be scheduled for July 16th. There'll be no further notice on this. If you're watching at home or if you have concern here, please check the uh township website. They're usually out uh seven

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days. You can always look up in the zoning board of adjustment. It lists the agenda and what will be on for the upcoming meeting which is about seven 10 days out. Correct, >> Mr. Pel? >> Yes. Correct. So, please check that. Albridgeidge Township Zoning Board of Adjustment.

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>> Uh, having said that, you have no uh final comments, Mr. Clauser. >> No, not this evening, you're on. >> All right. I want to thank everyone then uh again for the testimony. We look forward to seeing you again July 16th. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Have a good evening. >> All right, board members. Uh we come to

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general public comments. Does anyone here in the room while they take leave? Uh, does anyone here in the room have any general public comments that they want to bring before the board this evening on zoning board matters? >> None. All right. Well, thank you. I'm

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going to close that. Mr. Mlin, I don't see any reason. >> Okay. No one has uh looked for that. Uh, board members, next meeting, Mr. Pelli, >> question. >> Our next meeting is April 30th. >> April 30th. Last list. Okay. Yeah, we ran late this month because of the

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holidays, right? Correct. The religious holidays. >> All right. Board. Uh it's that's in two weeks then. >> Correct. >> All right. We'll have another meeting in April. Uh I look forward to seeing everyone. >> What you Okay.

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>> All right. Someone want to move for an adjournment? >> Move. >> Is there a second? >> Mr. Rizo second. All in favor signify by saying I. Any oppose? Nay. We stand adjourned.