WEBVTT

METADATA
Video-Count: 1
Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=fccm9ugU06Q

NOTE
MEETING SECTIONS:

Part 1 (Video ID: fccm9ugU06Q):
- 00:00:04: Meeting Opening, Roll Call, Flag Salute, Initial Comments
- 00:03:55: Timeline of 20 [__] Bush Road Issue
- 00:08:34: Public Comment Begins: Attorney Alex Divo Introduces Himself
- 00:23:32: Public Comment: Victoria's Distrust of Sober Living Facility
- 00:25:13: Public Comment: Eric Asks About Fire Violations, Inspector Responds
- 00:27:11: Public Comment: Eric Questions Building Inspector about Staircase
- 00:29:49: Public Comment: Dr. Mark Johnson Questions About Internal Permits
- 00:31:10: Public Comment: Citizen Questions About Zoning and House Status
- 00:33:20: Public Comment: Citizen Asks if Owners Will Be On-Site
- 00:36:32: Public Comment: Citizen Asks About DCA and Zoning Overlap
- 00:37:38: Public Comment: Citizen Questions Definition of Single Family Home
- 00:43:50: Public Comment: Citizen Asks About Third Building on Property
- 00:44:21: Public Comment: Stephan Questions Consequences of Code Violations
- 00:51:32: Public Comment: Eric Returns, Questions Class F Licenses
- 00:56:51: Public Comment: Question about Testing, Police Officer
- 01:00:58: Public Comment: Mary, Brian Celery, and Leasing
- 01:06:41: Public Comment: Tina, Short-Term Rentals, Future Ordinances
- 01:12:25: Public Comment: Dr. Robert Levine - Sober People Complaining
- 01:14:09: Public Comment: Brianna, Oxford House study, Unrealistic Expectations
- 01:20:14: Public Comment: Bruce - Why Be in Unwelcoming Town?
- 01:24:33: Public Comment: Question about eviction, Long Lease Time
- 01:26:03: Public Comment: Sam Palonsky Questions Location Choice
- 01:29:55: Public Comment: Patches Code Enforcement, Special Counsel
- 01:33:15: Public Comment: Ed Shim - Zoning and Single Family Home Definition
- 01:36:33: Public Comment: Clarifying # of People Living There
- 01:37:07: Public Comment: Christine - Sober Living/DCA are Lightly Supervised
- 01:43:48: Public Comment: Laviola Police Chief Update
- 01:45:05: Public Comment: Latos - Lack Of Women In The Sober House
- 01:47:26: Public Comment: Zimmerman Asks Who Gets Building Violation
- 01:48:57: Public Comment: Laviola Back For Lease Information Again
- 01:51:10: Public Comment: Vaktin - Asks For Inspection of Home, No Response
- 01:54:06: Public Comment: Rules Being Applied Differently to Residents
- 01:55:09: Public Comment: Corkran Suboxone Usage & Controlled Substance
- 02:00:38: Public Comment: Is Home a Drug Free Zone
- 02:01:11: Public Comment: Rental Certificate Requirements
- 02:04:14: Public Comment: Qualifications of on Site manager?
- 02:10:39: Public Comment: Petition State to impose the 5-year Ban
- 02:12:26: Public Comment: More Questions on Management
- 02:20:19: Meeting Adjourns: New Business & Final Statement From Mayor


Part: 1

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Huh? Okay. One minute. Okay, take a break. Okay, [snorts] good evening everyone. Um, Jean, you're good to go. >> Yeah. >> Okay, roll call, please. Oh, let me I'm sorry. Let me I'm sorry. Open public's meeting act. uh in compliance with the

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open public's meeting law notification of this meeting has been sent to our official newspapers and other publications circulated in the burough of old Japan and notice posted on the bulletin board at Burough Hall. Please be reminded that all of our meetings are video recorded and posted to our website. Please also note the fire exits

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are at the rear of the council chambers and to my left to your right when you came in the doors where you came in this evening. Uh roll call, please. >> Mayor Gallagher >> here. Councilman >> here. Councilman Boyce >> here. >> Counciloman Costello >> here. >> Councilman Guang. Councilman Martin

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>> here. >> Councilman Yu >> here. >> Would you please rise and join me for the salute to the flag? >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation

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under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [clears throat] All right. I'd like to start this evening with a couple of comments. Uh, and my comments will include uh

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a timeline if you will on some of the um what has gone on regarding the reason we're all here tonight at for 20 [ __ ] bush. So, but I'd like I'd like to start first uh while I have a big audience here tonight is we had a busy week in

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Old Tapan and um just want to make a couple of comments. I want to thank our Alapan police departments uh and our surrounding uh police departments for their handling of the uh NVO lockdown. Uh, great job by all. And I want to thank uh [applause]

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I also want to thank our old fire department and our mutual aid partners uh for their assistance with yesterday morning's house fire in town. [applause] Just one other thing. I know it was a couple of meetings ago uh there was some news about the mailboxes etc. location,

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losing their uh I guess their license with the postal service. And uh I want to let you know that uh many local politicians, including myself, did write a letter to the postal service uh requesting that that facility remain open and that it would create a hardship uh especially with the additional

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housing uh in town. So, it did ask uh if that could um could stay open there. Uh, and last but not least, um, kind of a shout out to two, uh, 50-year plus, uh, Ultapan EMS members. I want to invite everyone for, uh, a May 16th ceremony at

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Oaks Park at 1 p.m. honoring Daddy Gillespie and Lyn Macintosh for 50 plus years each of EMS service. And [applause] we'll be uh, we'll be dedicated we'll be dedicating a bench at Oaks Park in in their honor. So, uh, if your schedules

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permit, please join. All right. Now, I'd like to read I have I have a number of bullet points here. I want to kind of roughly I may have missed one or two things and and I'll I'll rely on our fire official and our building official to jump in if I miss something or or misspoke on something.

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Um, a bit of a timeline home. Um the home at 20 [ __ ] Bush Road was sold in early 2025 and the proper CO was issued sometime in mid 2025. The home was rented and the proper CO was issued uh

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regarding that rental application. There was an application submitted to the DCA uh from the operator from that home requesting a class F license to want to run a cooperative sober living facility at uh at that property. Uh that was on

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that was on 11325 and the and our building department was notified as a courtesy only. Uh fire prevention they they filed in November. It was incomplete um for a life hazard application on and the

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application was incomplete, but they refiled and on fire prevention inspected the residents on 226 noting five violations. Um and on 326 they went back and said all of the violations were corrected.

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It was at our um March 16th mayor and council meeting that a resident on [ __ ] Bush Road voiced concern and what was going on at 20 [ __ ] Bush Road. Numerous adult males in and out of vans all times of day and night. Asked of our zoning asked if our zoning

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approved such a business in residential zones had safety concerns, overcrowding concerns, etc. Councilman Marty reached out to myself, zoning official, burough attorney, and burough administrator on 42 stating a resident reached out with similar

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concerns. I had a resident reach out on 49 with same concerns. I advised that day that the Ultipan had been in touch with the DCA who regulates these CSLR uh cooperative sober living facilities and they were investigating.

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told DCA investigated and that a fine was issued for having residents in the facility before a license was issued and no further action would be taken by DCA on pending class F application until the property was vacant and the fines were paid.

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During that same time frame, there were advertisements and Facebook postings promoting new Clarity Sober Living LLC at 20 [ __ ] Bush Road in Old Pam. On 410, I was given a copy of a memo given to me by our fire official dated

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uh July 29th, 2022 clarifying inspection requirements. Uh I may ask our fire official to better clarify that in a few minutes. Uh on 413, a letter was written to the renter of the property by Ultipan zoning official that his office was

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advised of improper use of property as a F04 sober living facility. Um, and there were some highlights in that letter. On April 20th, zoning official received letter from Falcon Law Firm disputing findings and offering different

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interpretation of the use of that property. And that letter was given to our burough attorney. On 421, uh, Old Depan Burough Attorney responded to Falcon Law Firm stating no license was in place and they had 7 days to vacate.

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422 letter to DCA from Mayor Gallagher opposing license due to a number of factors. On 423 uh last Thursday, we're advised by our burough administrator that the residence would be vacated by Friday, 424, fines paid, and the DCA

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would continue with the application process. Uh tonight, I've made our zoning official and our fire marshal, Evan Cudson, available to answer questions related to their expertise in their given roles. And all I ask is that when we ask questions to them that we keep

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this in a very professional manner. Uh and let's get to the bottom. Let's let's get to the facts. Okay. Um so that is my statement there. And at this time I will entertain a motion to um well before I ask for that motion um I'm going to ask

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that our our comments are held to five minutes at max so that everyone who wants to have a chance to talk can talk. And I'm going to ask Council President Bagi to be my timekeeper. All right. Thank you for that. All right. So, I will >> minutes left, Mr. Mayor.

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>> Huh? >> You got four minutes 55 left. Let's go. >> I will entertain a motion to open the meeting to the public. >> So, move. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Would anyone from the public [clears throat] like to be heard on any matter this evening?

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>> Nobody. I think we would like to first hear from their attorney or who is visiting >> Hello Victoria Kadas of Phyllis Drive. >> Uh I before we open it to the residents I'm aware that the attorney and the

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owner of the facility are here today. >> I'm not aware of that. >> I am. >> Okay. [laughter] Good sir. >> I just wanted to give them an opportunity to speak first because I was told that >> So you'll defer to this gentleman here. >> Yes.

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>> Thank you. >> Meeting's open to the public. So anyone who wants to >> When you say owner of the facility, does that mean that no one meeting >> sir? My name is Alex Dibo. I drove an hour and a half to get here. Talk to

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people about what? >> Alex name uh name and uh >> Alex Divo >> 1309 Chestnut Avenue Ocean, New Jersey. I'm a lawyer with Falcon Recovery. My sober date 121912.

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>> Yes, >> sure. >> I'll address you any way you want. I have a loud voice. Good. I drove a long way because I wanted to talk to people and I watched the videos and I was sad that you were afraid of my community. So

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I wanted to explain to people what sober living is. I would like to tell you how it saved my life at 13 years and I went out in the parking lot to talk to people [clears throat] and they were a little nice. Some were not so nice. Um but I'll explain to you

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what sober living is. I'll start with the Oxford houses. Who's the attorney? Oh, the Oxford houses. So, there's 170 Oxford houses in New Jersey. They are not licensed by the DCA. They are identical to what we do and they're

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exempt from the DCA regulations. There's 170. How do I know? I lived in one and I was their lawyer. They saved my life. the owners of this facility and myself who own a silver home and I operate sober homes and I represent many sober

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homes. Why? Because they saved my life. We're not better than Oxford. I don't want to say that. That's mean. We're superior to Oxford. That's why they sent me here to talk to you to answer any question you want. I will sit here till tomorrow morning and answer all of your

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questions. We are not a halfway house to the nice gentleman I met before. They're young men like me who got addicted to drugs or alcohol. If they're older than me, it's probably alcohol. If they're younger than me in their 20s or 30s, it's probably drugs. They've come to a

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sober house, which is a single family residential home. I listened to the lawyer on the video. You're very good, by the way. They should pay you more money. >> We're a single family residential home. The idea behind a sober home is to put these young men into a regular

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neighborhood to live a regular life. We are not sex offenders. I promise. No Oxford House kid ever hurt anybody. We don't hurt neighbors. We don't hurt kids. We're people who got addicted to drugs. >> Mr. J, I have a question. >> Sure. >> I'm going to stop you there. When you

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say I promise we're not sex offenders, how do we know that? Are they are are they are they required to disclose and register with Ultan if they're living in that house? >> If they're sex offenders, of course, >> but there's no sex offenders in any of our sober homes.

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>> Do you do you do background checks? >> It's the first question we ask them and we know about their backgrounds. The answer is yes. There's no sex offenders. >> You do background checks? >> Of course, we look into their backgrounds. Of course, in the 170 auction houses, there's no sex

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offenders. I have children. My I have a daughter and a son. When our neighbors say to us, "Oh, we're afraid of the kids." We're not going to hurt your kids. I promise. We got addicted to drugs. We're changing our life. This is not a halfway house. >> We're your neighbors. >> Please, please, one,

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>> let let the gentleman speak. >> And I'm happy to speak. I'm happy to shut up. >> I I I just want to be clear. If If one of these men or women, I don't know, is it just men? Just men. If if one of these men is a registered sex offender,

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I was told that there's an exclusion in the state because they're in a sober house that they do not have to register with the local town. That is 100% false. >> Okay, that's that's not even so that's why I came. That statement, whoever told

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you that, they're not wrong. They're a liar. I'm a criminal defense lawyer. You have one sex offender in Al Japan because I looked it up. Yes, >> I looked it up. >> Yes, >> there'll be none in your house at 20 [ __ ] bush. I promise you if you find out there's one, we'll throw them out. But there will never be one. I promise

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you. >> How about putting sex offenders aside? Criminals alleged, you know, convicted criminals. >> Well, I'm a criminal. >> Okay. >> So, so people in recovery have gotten charged with crimes. >> Violent crimes. I'm asking about >> No, we don't commit violent crimes. We're drug addicts.

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>> No, I I understand. I'm just asking. Could any of them been convicted of former violent crimes? Ladies and gentlemen, please please. >> So, I've been in recovery 13 years. I know 5,000 people in recovery. None of us are

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violent criminals. The only violent crimes I guess we ever committed was drunk driving and and hurt someone unintentionally, but that's a violent crime. I guess >> I understand >> that. That definitely has happened. But we're not bank robbers. We're not putting guns in people's faces. Were

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people who got addicted to drugs, right? I got addicted to drugs. Imagine my poor family what I did to them. I'm a lawyer and I went to a Oxford house on Monument Street and the concept of a sober house to answer the nice man over there who I

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spoke to. It's the social model. So, you're all familiar with the 12 steps. We all have friends who have been involved with drugs or alcohol. Correct? And they go to AA or NA. Correct? The 12 steps is a fellowship of a community

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where we come together and say, "Oh my god, I did this. Oh my god, I did this." And we bond in the rooms of AA and NA. A sober house is the same thing. We're not going to hurt your children. These owners are so good that once they're

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operating at the DCA, they have given me authority to invite the council and all of you to come into the house and meet the kids. my house. I have recovery road in Oak. The old lady across the street, and when I say she's old, she's 80. She

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lives by herself, right? We shovel her driveway. She brings food to these kids every Sunday. Now, to defend her, they thought she thought they were seven bachelors. I'm the one who had to tell her what, you know, most of those guys were older, alcohol, so she liked them cuz they're guys like in their 60s. >> Mr. Dea,

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>> you're not going to hurt your kids. I promise you. >> Another question. Can you explain how the structure of the house works? Is there a supervisor there? >> There is. So, in the Oxford House, they're called the president. In a CSLR, and I just want to correct you. It's

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cooperative sober living residence. I showed some people some paperwork. Were considered a single family home, a residence. The answer is yes. There's an operator. Now, he's someone with multi-year recovery. The answer is yes. >> Do they have curfews? >> Yes. So, some of the residents were

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telling me stories. It's just not true. >> Are you Are you Mr. Mr. Debo, are you aware of an allegation that one of these men residents of of 20 [ __ ] Bush um was found on the grounds of our local high

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school watching a girl's lacrosse team practice? >> There's no way that's true. >> There's no way. >> There's no way. >> Alex, thank you. >> Thank you, sir. >> I have one. >> Oh, all right. Hang on. We got one question. I think there's some from the

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audience too. >> Yeah. I think that's the one question. >> We talked about sex offenders and I know you guys run background checks. >> Um besides obviously like a DUI or something like that, you're saying that no criminals live in there? No. No. Let me rephrase that. No people with criminal background. Not

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>> I'm not saying that at all. No way. >> Oh. So there So you do a background check. So there can be violent offenders in there. >> There's no There'll be no violent offenders in there. Could there be people like me who had CDS offenses? [clears throat] Absolutely. Let me ask you, >> would you guys take a violent offender?

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>> Of course not. >> So, no violent offenders going to either. >> Of course not. In my experience of 13 years, the number of violent offenders I have met in recovery is zero. >> I've met them in my my law my law practice. They come to my office. They're in jail actually when I represent them.

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>> Sir, with all due respect, I was a medic in the city for many years and I had a lot of drug addicts that committed a lot of violent crimes. >> Hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm going to stop you right there if I can. >> Sure. drug addicts. Yes, we are not in active addiction. That's the difference.

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That's I think the fear that people don't understand when I talk to them outside. We're people in recovery. We're not into active addiction. When Alex Divbo was an active addiction, even though I was pretty mellow, you wouldn't want I wouldn't want you to live next to me. I was in active addiction. These are

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people who are not using drugs. Apple sober. >> Have you ever had a resident go back into active addiction? >> Oh my god. Of course. >> Okay. Of course. Right. People relapse just like people in the community. >> No, I get it. M Mr. Deivbo, can I ask you a question?

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>> Um, you've elected to begin operating this prior to getting a permit to operate it. With all of your experience, why would that be the case? >> We filed in November. >> Mhm. >> We opened premature. We made a mistake. >> Which now? The Oxford House, just to answer

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your question, Mr. Boyce, >> yes, >> the Oxford homes don't need the DCA license like we do because we're not the Oxford nonprofit. There's a legal question there, but my client's going to abide by it. But just so we're clear, if

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we were Oxford, USA, we wouldn't have to wait 4 months to open eat rent for four months, right, sir? All that. Yeah. >> So, how many of these have you opened throughout New Jersey? >> Me personally or these owners? >> These owners. >> Uh, this is their fourth one.

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>> Why were they not aware of the proper procedure and the time? >> Filed in November. They took care of the problem and there's nobody at that house right now. I know people think I'm wrong, but I was just there. There's nobody at that house. >> Sir, are

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>> Oxford homes as lucrative as a CSLR? That's an interesting question. So, Oxford is a nonprofit and I would say that the rents are about $200 a week. This the private owners are not confined by the nonprofit world. Does that make

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sense? The Oxford, as your lawyer will tell you, has a massive organization, a bunch of lawyers who file against towns all the time. You all the federal lawsuits that you see, >> and it's a multi-million dollar corporation. The guys who own this facility, this sober living like me are

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people who are giving back to try to help the young people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol and give them the opportunity that we get to get sober. And the concept behind sober living is that model of society living, right? Of

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building what they call recovery capital, fellowshipping in the house and keeping each other accountable, right? making sure they're going to their 12step meetings, making sure that they have IOP treatment, whatever it is. Does that make sense? >> Yes, sir. What's the average stay at at

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these facilities? >> It's it varies. So, this particular owner has people who've lived there for multiple multiple years. >> I I'll talk about my house. So, my houses that I have >> Let's talk about the one pan. How long do you think they'll be there? >> So, they're brand new people. Um I hope

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for a year or two. >> Okay. So, after a year or two, they one person leaves >> most likely. Yeah. So the concept behind a sober house is you get to a recovery house. You build your recovery capital by going to meetings, getting a network, getting a job. We are great economic

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people in terms of working at the local Walmart, the Wawwa, the Home Depots, jobs like that. Does that make sense? >> We build up our money as the kids say, they stack their money and then you move into an apartment. Not everyone's an attorney is able to buy a house. So, it's like a halfway, not that it's a

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halfway house, but it's it's a stepping transitional living stepping stone >> to getting your life back. Now, some of the kids move back with their parents, right? >> Okay. You keep calling them kids. How old are these folks? >> So, I'm 58, so everyone's young to me. Um, it depends. As I was telling some of the people, there's people that are 60

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years old living in these houses. There's people that are 20. They're various ages. >> Okay. So, you said that they're in recovery, correct? Can you just paint a picture of how far along in their journey they are by the time they move to this particular facility? >> Depending on [clears throat] where they are in life,

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>> it could be as early as 30 days in recovery. It could be long as 6 months. All of the different facilities have different treatment models in terms of say Discovery, New Hope, Turning, I could give you the list. >> So, where are they housed prior to

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finding their way to a home like this? other Oxford houses, other uh cooperative sober living residences rehab or with their parents post rehab because they couldn't find sober living. So my cell phone rings three times a day for a sober house in Mammoth County. I

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have no beds. I'm full. Okay. >> So a typical example of a kid I just took, which would be similar to what these guys would do, is this young man left New Hope after 28 days, lived with his parents for 3 weeks, had no bonding, right? His parents are furious at him. He's he's a disgrace. He got addicted to

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drugs. They had to send him to rehab, right? And he's not getting that communal bonding, that fellowshipping at his parents house. And when the bed opens up at my house, I take him in. And now he's got his compatriots, his friends. When the guys go to the meeting, they go together. Did you get a

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sponsor? Yes. Oh my god. What step you on? I just wrote my four step. Oh my god. All three sections? Yes. How was it? Oh my god, it was terrible. I had to reveal things about myself. Can you imagine? When I did my four steps, they thought I was arrogant. Can you imagine?

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That's crazy. >> Alex, would you would you stay up front and I'm going to ask >> I will stay till morning. >> I'm going to ask the residents who may have questions for you or other comments. >> I'm happy to. >> Victoria, I have a question. >> Please come on. >> It's a question and it's a comment.

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>> Need your name and address again. >> Victoria Drive. I'm constantly here. >> Okay. [laughter] Uh my question is >> I disagree kind of with that line of questioning right now because

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>> I think it unfairly paints the residents of town as being prejudiced to a particular sober living facility. I don't believe it's the case. I believe almost everybody in this room has somebody who is a member of their family

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who needed help. And I think most of the people in this town are absolutely supportive of people getting help. What bothers most of us here, I'm not going to say all, but most of us is it seems that different rules seem to apply. And

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that is what we're against. You yourself started out your speech with saying multiple times, I promise. I promise. How can we trust what you promise and what the owners of the facility promise when this relationship between town and

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the facility started with a lie when they started operating [applause] without? So at this point it's not about us not willing to help people. It is about us not trusting that the facility will be operated properly given the way that it

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started. Thank you. >> Thank you. [applause] ALL RIGHT, COME ON UP HERE. CLOSE. SORRY, you're next. >> So, Eric Kurt Le [ __ ] Bush Road. My question is before I even get into what I want to talk about this evening. I would like to hear from the fire chief or whoever here is representing the fire

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department of what the violations were. Um, and then I'd like to come up to address a few things. >> So, you want to hear from our fire official? >> Yes, I want to hear what the violations were. Er, can you step forward? And uh >> I think I believe there were five of them right initially.

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>> Evan Cudson is our fire official. >> Uh so as the mayor said earlier, uh we did our initial inspection on February 26th. There were five violations that we

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noted. the first violation. Do you want the uh just the type of violation or >> want the stat? You want the statute number or just what it was? >> I'll give you the description. Give me the stat. >> Uh so violation number one was circuit

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breaker panel and equipment clearance. I believe there was a bed blocking one of the electric panels. Uh violation for marking the utility room door. a missing or blocked fire door, which

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was the door to the mechanical room, had louvers in it. Uh, insufficient amount of fire extinguishers and a cover or filler plate or panel cover missing on electric panel. So, that would have been like an outlet cover. And, uh, on reinspection,

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which was March 26th, we [clears throat] found all those violations were evaded. >> We documented. How's that documented? who did the repairs? >> Uh, that's not something that we document. We're not there when the repairs are done. >> Yeah. So, there was nothing there that

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in our opinion required any kind of permits. It was the bed was in the incorrect location to move the bed. >> Sir, if you want to make a comment, kind of come on up and introduce yourself again. It's have to do it the right way. >> Sure. >> So, Eric live [ __ ] road.

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>> I'd like to then ask the building inspector as well. So, the staircase in that house was replaced. Was that staircase that was built up to the proper code, the proper rise and run? Were the uh handles coming down the proper as well? Was it the proper length of the steps? So, if there was a fire that took place, is everything um in

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accordance to um building code? >> Bob Rush will address that. >> Um I have not the building department has not been into this uh property at all. Um a single family residential home is what we have as right now until that

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class F license is issued. Once that license is issued, then then it changes a little bit. But I have no jurisdiction to just be able to go in there, knock on the door, kick in the door, and try to go in and see what they've done. I'm aware that there has been some work that

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was done in the house. Obviously, I mean, we had video sent to us. We do know that there was a a spiral staircase that was there before. um the the the uh state fire official is going to be coming in uh sometime in May and asked me if I if I could go through with them.

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At that point in time, I'm going to be able to go in there. But as for right now, it's a single family residential home. And if anybody in this room has ever applied for a zoning permit application, a building permit application, you know that the building department is by the book. And if I if there's something that I could possibly

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do that's in black and white to get in there and take a look at it to make sure that it is safe and the railings are right because every everybody that builds a new home knows that we measure everything. Okay. So, it's not a blind eye to it, but there's nothing that I can do uh unless I violate the rights.

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>> Bob, can I ask a question on that? So, once you're able to to gain access under the situation you just explained, what what happens then? So you go in there and say, "Hey, where did this spiral staircase go?" What what what what's the next step from your department?

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>> It's notice of violation. So we will issue a notice of violation in order to terminate and uh potentially uh issue fines. I will find every uh um every part of the work that's done with no permits, building, electric, plumbing, and fire. I could issue a $2,000 fine

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for each for each item. Okay. Um, and there are there are residents in this town that have received fine from the building department. I'm not shy. I will issue you a penalty if if we catch you doing work with no permits. >> Well, permits issued for anything in there

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>> inside the house. >> Yes. >> Uh, there was nothing for inside the house. There are open permits for other work that have been done on the property. >> Do they need that uh for in the inside? Did they need to get >> Doc, you got to come up and introduce yourself on the record. >> It's the way it goes. That's the way it

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is. >> And then sir in the back if you would like to come up after >> I'm Dr. Mark Johnson 335 Alter Pan Road. Uh oh, I forgot what my question [laughter] >> about open permits.

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>> Do they need do they need uh uh permits to get to do internal work like taking down walls and putting other things like that? So the the state of New Jersey in 2018 passed something that's called ordinary maintenance. There's a lot of work that can be done in people's homes

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that does not require permits that used to require permits a long time ago. Okay. Um so we get many uh complaints that oh they're doing work over there. There's a dumpster. I get over there and they're doing everything that's compliant with the uh regulation of ordinary maintenance. Yeah. So stairs

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and railings, if it's more than 50% of the stairs and railings, yes, they need a uh they need a permit. So there will when when I do get in there, there will be uh violations issued, but I have to see it, you know. I I can't go on I can't go on here and say, "No, no. I have to physically see it.

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I've seen the video. I know. I know what's there. >> I have to pour and ask for >> I get I understand when they take me to the board of appeals, they're going to ask me if I saw. So, I h I have to not violate anybody's rights and I have to be 100% sure with all my facts before

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anything is done. >> Sir, in the back. >> Okay. Thanks, Doc. >> Okay. Thank >> Yeah, I know. I didn't forget you. I kind of did. >> Both those 29 Dearborn Drive as far as the permits are concerned is uh replacing the stairs from a spiral staircase to a straight staircase. Is that not major structural work?

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>> Major structural? Possibly not. I don't know until I get in there and I see what they actually did. >> The other question is now this is a single family house. Is it being reszoned or is it a boarding house? Multiple people living inside there? >> It's not. You heard the gentleman not only he went. Uh it's classified as a

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single family residence, right? >> But if you're char if you're charging rent per week, isn't that considered a boarding house in New Jersey? >> Refer to do you have a Can you respond to that? >> So So under the Oxford and he can explain to you how the >> It's not an Oxford house. I got a second. Under the Oxford style, no. It's

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considered a single family residential home. If you if you read into the regulations through the UCCC, which is there's a bulletin that's been put out that verifies it that I cannot require somebody to have a change of use for this style home.

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>> Okay. So, uh, he started originally saying it wasn't a halfway house, but then went on to say it was a halfway house. People come in and go, you're saying the minimum is 3 to 4 weeks before they enter the house. Is there requirements? Are they supposed to show stuff?

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>> I could because I don't know the answer to that. So >> I'm happy to answer. I just want >> Please do. Yeah. Yes, please. >> So the answer is no. So someone doesn't come from active addiction into an Oxford house or a cooperative civil living residence. What's the average time? You want me to guess? 60 to 90 days. Would they let someone in with 30

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days? Yes. I assume they would. >> Is anybody entering the house straight out of jail or prison? >> No. >> Okay. Other questions? You said uh drunk driving is not intentionally dangerous or >> No. No. No. He asked about violent crime. It's not intentionally a violent crime. How many people in my community, >> okay,

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>> few of them have driven drunk and caused car accidents that killed people called manslaughter, right? >> And they've gone to state prison. I've never seen anyone who's that in a sober house, but theoretically they could. >> Yeah. But that's also that being being said, that's you're intentionally getting in the vehicle. So, it can't be

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a non-intentional >> injury. The gentleman asked me a question about serious crimes. Most of the people in my community commit the crimes that I committed with possession of drugs. But there are people in my community who driven drunk. >> Correct. >> And unfortunately, tragically get

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charged with involuntary manslaughter for a death. >> Are the owners going to be on site? Is there anybody that's going to be on site 24/7? >> The answer is yes. Under a cooperative sober living residence, unlike in Oxford, Oxford's called the president, the person with the most clean time or sober time. In a CSLR,

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there's a h house operator, a manager, a black. The answer to your [clears throat] question is yes. >> That manager is living on site 247. >> Yes. >> And they're not they're they're restricted from leaving before curfew or after curfew, right? >> The manager or the people on >> people inside.

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>> People in the house have a curfew. Yes, of course. >> Gotcha. So now, if there's going to be multiple people living there, is there anything as far as like fire hazards that they need to address? I mean, if you're going to have 12 people living in a house, it's one thing if it's like >> it's eight plus a manager, >> okay, >> is the answer. The state law is 10 plus

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one. This house is eight plus one. The one is a manager. I don't count them as a resident because of the manager, but you can. >> Fair enough. >> Nine. >> No, I know. >> And the answer to your question in terms of the fire safety is the fire inspector. This man comes out and does a license, >> right? >> And the DCA takes that license and then

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there's multiple inspections by the DCA, >> right? >> Multiple. do a UCCc, which is kind of like what this gentleman does. >> And then they come back out and they do measurements. The measurements that they're going to do in this house, it's going to be 8 plus one cuz that's all this owner does cuz it's easier to

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control the young men. Does that make sense? You know, you don't want it. >> But the state law is 10 plus one. >> My other argument is if this house was purchased in November, how soon were people living inside the before we got proper fire permits? >> I I I apologize. I don't know the answer to that. The answer to your question is

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the application was filed in November. It's supposed to take four to six weeks. It did not. >> Does each house set their own rules for the curfew? No, we're going to go back here first. >> Can I answer the council? >> Yeah. Yes, please. And then, sir, you're next.

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>> It's a It's a Each house has the same rules. >> So, the Oxford style is different than this. This is private style. And under this private style, these owners set the rules. Of course, there's house rules. So, my bad. My fault. So, you're going to move in. You get addicted to drugs, alcohol, you go you go to rehab. You got

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your 60 days, councilman, and you move in. When you move in, you're given a set of rules. >> Okay? >> One of those is curfews. One of those, as you can imagine, is you have to do a urine test any time. You can't be on drugs or alcohol at all. They limit your prescriptions. If you have a bad back

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and you're on opioids, which is legal in this country, that's great, but you can't live in our house. If you're on certain benzo, right, because you have certain issues and stuff like that, that's great, but you can't live in our sober house. Does that make sense? People have these weed cards and people

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smoke weed. That's great, but you can't live in my sober house. Does that make sense? You're just not allowed. So, we discriminate against people on benzo, opioids, right? I'm I'm a lawyer. I have clients who want opioids legitimately hurt. They just can't live in a sober house.

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>> Thank you, sir. My name is Richard Tony Oolo, 55 Dearbornne Drive. Uh, Mr. Mayor, I have a two-part question. First, do the DCA regulation supersede the old pan zoning uh ordinances? And number two,

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>> okay, you want want to go one at a time? >> The answer to that is no. >> Then number two, if the recovery service is not a permitted use in this uh neighborhood, why shouldn't it use be suspended until an application is made? a variance application is made and

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approval given by the planning board for this for this use. Well, >> say say that second part one more time. It if it >> if it's not a permitted use, should an application be made to the planning board for a variance? >> The the use is they consider the state

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considers it to be a single family use. So although they don't override the zoning, the state considers it and there are a lot of court cases that consider this use to be a single family use and that is permitted under the zoning. >> Thank you.

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>> Thank you Richard. Uh back here [clears throat] >> Nick Safra 15 Crebble Bush. Uh my first question is what is the definition of a single family home? Can someone explain that to the people? >> Most of the courts have determined that

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it's people living together as a single family unit. They eat together. Uh they sleep together. There are no locks on the exterior of the bedroom doors so that you can, you know, lock yourself. It get into your bedroom and lock it from the outside.

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>> And normally in a three-bedroom house, how many people can you put in a three-bedroom house? >> Many as you want. Is there is there an ordinance in the town? Can we >> There is right and how many cars can you have in the parking lot? >> The the car it's not it's not a matter of the cars for a single family

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residential home. So for uh we have the international property maintenance code is what we enforce. Okay. >> So uh for every for let's say for a bedrooms the first occupant is 70 ft. Every occupant inside that bedroom you need an additional 50 ft. Okay. So if

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you have four in there it's 220. Right. So uh living rooms also have the same type of regulation. X amount of square feet per occupant inside the um >> so so you can put people in a living room to live to sleep. Oh, that's okay. >> What I'm saying is that let's say you

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have enough of adequate space for the bedrooms, but you've got a small living room. >> Okay. >> Uh you somebody's got to go. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, my next question is for for you. Um did the owner of the house apply to the town with plan building plans of what

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they're going to do? >> No. >> Okay. So any homeowner in ultipan if I want to move a door or do something in my house I've submit a plan and I get a permit. >> I know I just said it before about ordinary maintenance. Right. So you can replace every door inside your entire

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house without having to apply for a permit. >> But if they brought in 50 sheets of sheetrock, do you think they just took all the sheetrock down and replaced the sheetrock? Isn't that structure? Well, I'm not I know you haven't been in there. So, I just want to know how come they're not applying for uh they should be submitting plans of what they're

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doing first and you're going to have to okay them and the town board's going to have to okay them or the planning board before they live in there. They're living in there as they're doing it. >> So, let me there's two things there. >> So, you just said 50 50 sheets of sheetrock, let's say, right? >> You're allowed to remove up to 25% of

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all the interior finishings on the interior of your property on the interior of your home. Okay. Without any permits. That means I can I can gut if you've got a big house, I can gut two bedrooms in a bathroom, take out all the insulation, put it all back. No permits. >> Yeah, I am. >> I go there and I see it. Ordinary man.

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>> Okay. >> All right. Um, what was my last question? >> Oh, so we were talking about uh a building permit. I was here in February with my daughter that we were ones that really presented it to you. And at that time, your town clerk or whatever,

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Hannah, whatever her name was, >> administrator, >> burough administrator, told us that they had no CO for that building, for that helm. And now they're saying that they have a CO. They have a CO for the property. They don't have a CO for people to be living in that home. >> Hold on. Hold on.

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>> Is that two different things? >> That's two different things. Okay. >> Okay. Certificate of occupancy is issued by the by us. Okay. Um and that is um so you build a new house, you get a certificate of occupancy. You do a renovation, you get a certificate of approval. Okay.

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>> Okay. You rent a house, it's a rental uh certificate. Okay. >> Okay. Very long time ago, it used to be called the CCO. If anybody is a real estate agent in here, we had um uh the DCA sent out uh memos to us and we had to change them. And we did here. We

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changed all the verbiage on CCOs's and it's all rental certificates. Do they have a rental certificate in place? Yes, there's a rental certificate in place. Um, there's no new CO when the house is sold. It's a resale certificate. Okay. The house has a CO. Nobody has gone in there and pulled the certificate of

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occupancy and made them apply for a new certificate of occupancy. Now, a true CCO is from the uniform construction code. If you buy a house and you want a true CCO, which would which would be another certificate of occupancy, let's say the house is 30 years old. The initial certificate of occupancy was

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issued 30 years ago. You buy the house, you want to have a you want to make sure every inspe every inspector comes in and inspects the house. For a rental or resale certificate, it's fire uh prevention and myself. That's it. But a real CCO from the uniform construction

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code. Every inspector goes in and make sure that the house is safe. Okay. And this is for [clears throat] the fire inspector. When we were here, burough administrator said there was 10 fire violations. That's one. Number two is we were told that someone went to inspect

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it and wasn't allowed in the house and nothing happened. So, I just wanted to ask the fire inspector why. >> Sounds like it was five and not 10. And I'll let you answer the second. >> So, we were told 10 at one time and then Okay. I'm just going with told me, not I'm

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>> Yeah. No, there was only five violations >> and so nothing happens when they don't let them in. >> Well, they weren't let in. Uh there was a a third building I guess on the property that we were unsure of what the use was going to be and how that was related. Okay. >> So we did not inspect that. Um but uh I believe we're going to go back when the

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state goes back and we're going to reinspect that with that third building. Um but just a point of clarification. So when they apply to the fire prevention bureau, they apply as an AFO4 life hazard use, which is a rooming and boarding house of two or three stories.

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So that's what we inspected it under. Before they get their F license from the PCA, they need their certificate of fire inspection. So we inspected it as a an AFO4 inspection. When we went there, we had concerns because uh to us that's a rooming and boarding house and we were

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unsure if there was going to be a change of use and our obligation if we suspect that there might be a change of use is referred to zoning. So that's what we did. So >> thank you. All right. Five minutes. Five minutes. Thank you. You enjoy your time. >> Coming back. >> All right. >> Can I ask the civil question?

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>> Yep. On a moment. >> Yep. >> So, have you visited the property? >> I have. I was just there. >> Do you understand that there's three buildings on the property? >> I totally understand. >> What are your intentions with the three buildings on the property? >> Zero. We only have a lease for the top

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front building. I couldn't tell you what was on the other buildings. The lease is just for the other buildings. You're not part of the other buildings at all. So, the current owner has use of the other two buildings. >> They lease the front house to us to my client. Yes.

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>> Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you, sir. Stephan Vakin, 9 Todd Lane. Uh this is uh first question for the building inspector. Uh so, you mentioned that uh at some point the state will uh follow through with an

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inspection. They've asked you to join, right? Um, basically you come in, you know what, there's some uh alterations to the home. You'll probably find a a violation, issue a violation, a notice of a violation. What happens then? Do

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they have to file plans to cure it or do they have to revert it back to what it was? >> And I think you said that the the violation is about $2,000. So, it's essentially a stop on the wrist, right? >> Well, it's per violation. So, if I find that they did electrical, let's say they did electrical and plumbing and fire.

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Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Along with building, that would be $8,000 in >> a slap on the wrist. We can all agree for someone that for a business that's making a couple thousand dollar per month. >> I'm not I I don't know about that. Everybody Every and this is >> I'm pointing out as as a statement.

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>> So So let let's just back up one sec. Everybody in this room probably has done some sort of work in their house with fire. >> Yes. >> Everywhere. Okay. There's a lot of people in this room that's done work with no problems. And it it happens all the time. You want to just let's just say for instance you buy a new

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refrigerator. You got to move your receptacle out there. It's a permit, right? You want you want to replace all of your railings in your house because your wife decides, you know what? I don't like the old wooden ones. I want a nice [laughter] >> right >> requires permit.

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>> So there are a lot of there's a lot of work that's being done in every one of my towns that requires permits. >> Okay. very often. I will I will find you. I will find you and see you, okay? Not finding you. And I will tell you, listen, get down there. I was a building

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contractor for 30 plus years. I'm a resident. I know what it's like to own a home. >> Well, it it happened to me. I didn't know. I had to get a permit. I'm new town. I got a permit for uh for dumpster. I didn't know I needed one. >> I got called in 8 seconds after I started doing work and I went down. I got a permit. So, I hear you on that one. >> Something something like replacing the

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stairs, you're getting a penalty. >> Yeah. >> Okay. replacing a full set of railings like that, you're getting a penalty. >> Yeah. >> Okay. There there's there that is it a life safety issue? >> Yes, it could be. But typically a set of stairs you're not going to you're not going to typically die from a set of

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stairs. I can't go kick it in your door and and and then go for an administrative set of stairs. >> For the sake of my time, I'll uh I'll go on to the next thing, but I thank you for that. Um Alex, was it okay so you you obviously uh came in here. you. This

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is probably not your first rodeo in defending your clients for these scenarios. >> I've never seen this many people at a meeting like this. >> We care. This is a talent of people that care and are very very neighborly. >> So, uh, >> you you made a couple of promises. I promise. I promise. So,

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>> I'm going to change those to guarantees. >> Okay. So, >> please guys, >> slow down, please. I'm sorry. We have to take everyone at their word in some capacity. Right. So you're making a promises saying that most

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importantly no one is allowed to live and really this place should not be operating if uh individuals who are actively on drugs or actively in drink you know drinking are are coming back onto the property. You agree? >> 100%. >> Okay.

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If we were to provide repeated video evidence uh showing over a course of time that you guys are not abiding by your guarantees, do you promise to shut down the home? >> I can't shut down the home, but I promise to deal with that problem

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immediately. Here's my email. >> I don't need your email. U >> you ask me a question. I answer. >> Yeah. There is no way that someone is going to drink >> getting drunk and returning to the 170

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Oxford homes or the 250 private homes in New Jersey. >> So, we we already have evidence of it. >> I'm I'm saying we already have evidence of it. So, we're not going to I'm not going to say more than that, but I I will say >> my email is there. >> Very good. I'll take a picture of that.

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>> But what what I will say is my expertise is video surveillance. So, I can promise you that we're going to have private video surveillance on the homes of our neighbors, surveilling our properties and those who are walking past it. And if we have repeated video evidence, does

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that classify any sort of state trigger to close down a CSLR? You mentioned >> cooperative silver living. The owners will deal with that. I speak to them when I say >> so we would notify DC. Yeah. >> So, so the burrow would would notify. we

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have that that evidence of the bureau will notify DCA and say there's a perceived violation going on under the agreement of the home >> um that's going on there >> because if it's again if it's repeated we'll we'll do our due diligence and within your rights sure >> okay

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>> so then we know what we have to do >> what would normally happen if that occurred so they come back to the home >> so where do they send and that's what the cooperative sober living auction house does they take that individual They bring them to a hospital. They

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bring them back to treatment. They bring them back to their parents. Whatever the resident decides they want to do, we pray. >> I say this from the point of view of someone that has a very close relative that deals with recovery issues uh in my

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immediate family and very much knowing the difficulties that people go through that you went through in your life. sounds like. But we also have a few stories already of some of these, you call them young kids going into properties of our neighbors illegally

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trespassing. We have video of it. It's not a matter of opinion. As a matter of fact, >> as a matter of fact, we have evidence of it. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, has the police been notified of of that? Has it been trespassing? I mean, we have our officer in charge in the

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room tonight. I don't know if >> has there been an uptick on >> Hold on. So, >> she's over there. >> I'm sorry. >> Yeah, please. Katie Katie, if you want to just have has there been an an uptick on um calls in the neighborhood or

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trespassing calls or >> uh we have four calls for suspicious vehicles or suspicious acts in the area of 20 bush. Um, other than that we have no other >> in the last few months since January. >> Since January. Okay. >> And for the police, if I may, one last

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question then I'll step away. >> Yep. >> Can you please advise the town residents what are our legal rights to defending our homes with a weapon if someone was to come into our house? >> I would I would anticipate that you

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would not want to answer that and I don't want you to answer that. I would suggest you contact your private attorney. Okay. just asking a question. Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. Thank you,

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[applause] >> sir. Welcome back, Eric. >> Eric Kurtland, Level Creel Bush. So, my first question is, how many class F licenses does the operator um have today? >> This will be the fourth.

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>> This will be the fourth. So, if this building is class F, and I feel like you keep bringing up the Oxford thing, I feel like you're just muddying the woods to confuse people. So, I'd appreciate moving forward if it's just around class F because this is what this house is uh designated for >> and and I don't need I don't need u

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anything from that. So, the next thing I'd like to bring up is that this house has been operating for almost 120 days. I live across the street. People moved in in January. So willing and knowingly, the operator has known for 120 days they've been operating this

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house unlicensed. During that time, was it February 26 is when the fire department came and gave five violations. So for a full month, people still continue to live there knowing that there was fire violations. And not just the fire violations, in addition to the stairs as

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well. It's a three-story house. The house caught on fire, we don't know what would happen, right? It's all in there. So again, willing and knowingly for all these months you guys have been operating when you have four previous houses, you're up here saying everything about people need help. And I agree they

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do. I'm with you. But at what point did the owner operator of 20 [ __ ] bush, they made a calculated business decision to operate open a sober living house without required approvals because they believe the financial upside outweigh the risk of getting caught. So you guys

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chose profit over [applause] coupon. you chose private local people, but and you're up here telling us everything all those other things. >> Eric, I can say in my letter to DCA, I specifically spelled that out is that it's a trust factor. There's a lot of things that that I have an issue with

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with the uh facility being where it is, but one of them was the nefarious acts uh and it's untrustworthy. So, I put I put that in my personal letter on my letterhead to the DCA. you're running an unlicensed business, right?

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I work in corporate America. If I pulled any of that, I'd be fired 120 days. So, now the next thing I'd like to bring up is just some of our old um Old Tapan owns burrow code. So, from my understanding that, you know, this facility today does not have

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the proper zoning approval. Is that correct? >> Well, it's it's not registered yet. >> Okay. It's an R5 single family home. >> Okay. So again, this could go either way, but I I just want to put this out there. So according to Ultipan, you

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know, a zoning approval constitutes a public nuisance under the Ultipan Burough Code. A public nuisance designation is not just a fine category. It opens up the door to court order abatement, meaning a judge can order the violation corrected and the use permanently ceased. You know, in

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addition, it's up to $1,000 a day for that fine. So to me, it's if they've been running this thing for 120 days, you know, profiting at $1,000 per day, that should be an additional $120,000 fine that is put on to the operator of this facility in addition to what the

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DCA has already. >> Do you want to touch on that or Bob? You had mentioned something about when DCA is are we out of our jurisdiction on certain things? >> Yeah. So, okay. uh operating operating this without the license is strictly the

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DCA's enforcement. I have no jurisdiction whatsoever on being able to violation operating without without the license. Uh I've spoken [snorts] to uh the DCA about this a couple of times. My hands my hands were tied with with that portion. They elected to give them a

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fine. That's what their slap on wrist was. They gave them a fine. I guess the fine was paid and that way they didn't wish to uh evict anybody. Uh but that's all that's that's the statement. >> Okay. And then just the last thing is so I understand you guys have class F license for other homes. Are these homes

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all located in New Jersey as well? >> Right. >> So is there a way for us to go and pull this information to see if these other homes have were operating illegally before they attain their license? Is this type of pattern that you guys have where you guys are operating these homes before these licenses are put in place or is this is just an old Japan thing

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where you said, "Hey, you know what? we're going to ignore the law and move this one forward or again is a pattern that you guys have at all your facilities. That's you're incorrect on your statement, but I >> you could you could Oprah any >> so my thing I'm not >> you go to any bar hall you can opra the information.

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>> Yeah. Okay. So as you can see in the last video I'm very calm. I'm not angry. I'm just going by from what I've done research on and what I've been seeing. Right. And what it comes down to is again you're up here saying it's all about the people. But from my perspective it's all about the profits. Because if it was about the people,

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right? You wouldn't put them in a situation where if that house did catch on fire, a three-story building with multiple fire inspections, if you cared about them, you guys would not have been operating. >> Thank you. [applause] >> Hey, Mike. Mike, give me one second. >> Mr. Deivbo, one more question. The

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residents of the sober house, are they subjected to random or or routine drug and alcohol testing? >> Of course. >> And how often is that? depends on the house manager. I'll talk about the Oxford style, you know, Oxford

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>> because it's the same thing. So, we use the Oxford method because it's been around since 1972. >> All right, you got to speak louder. >> And the Oxford method is when someone shows signs of use, that's when they would test them. Generally speaking,

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I'll talk about myasis first. We do it once a week and then we do it randomly. Okay? So, by way of example, at most houses, there's people with longer recovery than not. If I call the bottom three guys, they're in the triple at my house. We test them all the time because they're brand new.

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>> But at least once but at least once a week. >> Yes. >> And I heard rand and I heard random in there. >> Random. Okay. >> Thank you. >> And we don't we try not to do it at the house meeting for obvious reason. >> Sure. >> Now, the guys who've been there for two years, it's different because you're

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they're doing well. The thing about sober living is it's communal living. If someone's using drugs in the house, we can tell because we have been on drugs. I I joke with the Mammoth County judges all the time. I'll say, "Do you want to know who's high in the room?" The judge

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like, "You can tell?" Yes. An addict, an alcoholic can tell someone who's an addict. It's second nature for us. We have a lot of bad choices, but that's one thing we're good at. So, it's random. It's done based on the observation. I hate to say it's the Oxford model. Been around for 40 years

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and that's that's how they do it. Does that make sense? >> Yes. Thank you. >> Who's next? Mike. >> They can choose who not to test because they >> Good evening, Mr. Mayor and council people. My name is Mike Labola. I live at 16 Todd Lane in the pan.

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Are the people that are leasing this house from the owner, are they in the audience tonight? I'd prefer not to say that because >> Well, if they are, I I I would. >> People are staring me down. >> No, I I I'd like to ask them a couple of questions since they're the ones that are leasing that house. >> I'm here to answer their questions.

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>> I don't think you can answer all of them, but >> I'll do the best I can and if I can't, I'll give you my card. You can send them to me, right? I'm sorry. >> Four and a half minutes. >> I mean, they were nice enough to have me come up here and I'm happy to answer your questions. I'd be thrilled to answer. >> Well, they'd be dumb if they didn't have you come up here, wouldn't it?

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Um, >> got it. Thank you. >> Everybody raise their hand who is not the owner. >> No. No. Go ahead, Mike. >> Let's not have a dog and pony show. >> Okay. Mary wants to come up. She's got a few things that she'd like to address with this situation that we have.

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>> So, you're deferring to Mary? >> I'm going to defer to Mary. And as a, you know, a police officer for 40 years, I've dealt with drug addicts and alcoholics. Okay. You know, up there in 9W, we had a lot of bad things happen over my 40 years as a police officer. So, I can tell when somebody's under the

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influence. All right? And we don't really want to have a situation here in this area in this town where we have to worry about something like this. Okay? Because we have a lot of children here. that that residence is within

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1,000 ft of playgrounds, little league fields, high school fields, t uh uh TBD school. It's close by. All right? And we don't know if these guys are really vetted properly. All right? We don't know that. All right? We don't know what their backgrounds are before they went

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into this house. And that's that's scary to all of us. Okay? Even me as a police officer. All right? So, we're concerned. And a lot of people here are afraid. Not only concerned, but afraid because they have small children that roam the

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neighborhood. And you know, this is all men. It's not women. It's men. And I don't have to tell you what's happened in the in the past in the area with things like this. Okay? So, we are extremely concerned about this and we're

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not going to let it lie. Okay? Thank you. Mary, restart the clock for you. >> Hi, I'm Mary Laviola, 16 Todd Lane. Uh, I pulled up the uh rental certificate for this property and the two people on

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it is Michael O Sullivan and Brian Celery. Now, Brian Celery is one of the owners over at the Valley I always say Spring Valley Spring Recovery. I know they did that for a reason. That's why they switched the words around. Um, so one of them, so they knew when they were

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renting it what they were going to rent it for. As of Michael Sullivan, I still have to check the background of, you know, where he is. I have a lot of resources. So, um, so Brian Celery is one of the owners of this so-called

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the Clarity Clarity House. So, they knew back in when they applied for this. Hold on. Back in resale. Okay. Give me a sec. Sorry. I gave my papers to somebody. So that's

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why I have to go through this. So back in they issued in December 3rd of 2025, they actually they both applied. I guess they filled out a lease. Is the lease something that we could take a look at? Does the lease say that they could

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sublet it to something? Because I'm giving the owner a little bit of whatever saying that he didn't know what was going on. He probably did, but he I'm just saying he didn't. So, these two men open it up.

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Did the Did Did the town know that they were opening up to open up this Oxford house or so? That's another lie. So that's something that they did which is another thing. So a they lied doing the

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lease they lied doing saying for the re you know for the rental they lied because on January 19th I have proof of the video and of them saying that this is a sober house an Oxford house. Okay now you're switching it around to an

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Oxford house. Um I have a lot of proof and they did everything. They try to go under the radar. Oh no one's going to know. Let's get them all in. Boom. Boom. So, right now you're in violation of several things that I personally can say.

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What do you have to say about that? Yeah, I'm talking. Yes. >> So, a cooperative sober living residence application is not made to town. >> The state designed the statute so it would go right to the state of New Jersey. And I could read to you what the regulations are. So cooperative sober

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living residents are not zoned out of residential neighborhoods. That was the design of the state law. You can't be mad at my owners. You can't be mad at the council. >> No, I'm not mad. I'm just showing that you >> the state of New Jersey in 2018-19

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as a result of people like me and sober house owners created this cooperative sober living residence to compete with the Oxford houses which were exempt from any state regulation >> so that so the people who are renting

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this property did not have to notify the owner of the property. I find it hard to believe because I was >> cooperative. >> So the owner then knew it was cooperative, but you don't have to let the town's people know. So Michael Ot Sullivan and Brian Celery and I think

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Brian is here as we speak. >> Yes and no is the answer to your question. So the process is in November, not December, we file forms to the DCA. There's a set of forms that are filed. As a result of that, something is generated and the nice fire guy is then

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told that he has to come out to the property. It's not the state inspector at first. It's the local inspector. >> But you snuck them all in anyway without a license. >> The local inspector comes in and does his inspection. Then after that, the DCA

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does I want to say an inspection like this gentleman would do. >> It's a UCCC. Am I using the right terms? the UCCC injection where they they they check the electrical, they check the fire, they do all this stuff that gentlemen like Kim do, but it's the state guy from the northern region, not

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the local guy. >> Okay? >> That's here there. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the CEO is Michael O Sullivan and Brian Celery. Brian is back there. I know who he is. >> So, they don't have to let or the home

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homeowner knows. Shouldn't they tell the burrow? Isn't the Isn't the council should be aware of what's going to happen with the property >> in the lease? Is there a lease? Is there a lease >> on this property? Do you have a lease on this property?

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>> Do you have a copy of the lease on the property? >> Do they have a copy? >> Brian, do you have a copy of the lease? >> I would ask you not to do that. >> Yeah. Well, too bad. You did a lot of screwy things to our town, so I can do what I Okay, you were very undercut. You

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went, you snuck in. You have a video that you took off. Well, guess what? I taped it. Okay. January 19th saying, "Oh, come to Japan. The best still li." >> All right. Just that you could promise, you can guarantee. You lied from the

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get-go. You talk with both sides of your mouth. We don't trust you. I'm done. I have a quick question. I don't know if it was addressed last time, but um >> maybe address for the record, please. >> Okay. Tina, I live on Tar Drive. Do does the town have an ordinance for short-term rentals like for Airbnbs and

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things like that? >> This So, the state can override the short-term rentals under this. You can answer that better than me. >> This is not a short-term rental use >> even though they're only there. They could be there for a few weeks. >> Sorry. Please. It's a short-term rental

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is the entire facility. People come in, they use the whole facility, and then they go out. This is not that. This is a >> contin going forward to prevent this from happening again. What kind of ordinances can we pass? >> Is there anything that we could pass?

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>> Towns have been opposed in fighting this for the last several years. >> So there's nothing >> some >> So there's nothing that we could What? Why our town? Why hasn't it been other towns that that offer a lot more for these people living job >> wise? We don't have many businesses in

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town and where are they working? >> Why here? >> And what are other towns doing to prevent this going? Maybe we're screwed here right now, Ra, but what are we doing going forward? How >> these can 10 more of these can pop up. So, what are we doing going forward? >> And and they are popping up in towns.

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And frankly, I think there are probably a lot of these silver living facilities that the towns are not aware of, just like this mayor and council wasn't aware of. They come in, they get their license, maybe the building department is notified, but the the residents are and the mayor and council aren't, and it just operates without anybody knowing

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about it. >> So, we don't do we have anybody doing any type of research to see if there's anything the town can pass to prevent the state from coming in? >> I think the mayor councs are going to talk about that later tonight. >> Okay. Um and my other question is what type to you sir what type of jobs do

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these um men hold because like I said there's not many businesses in the area maybe Northville um maybe a little further down 9W but >> the answer to that varies we've had police officers and firemen live in the house believe it or not lawyers we've

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had doctors the general answer though is not those professionals generally >> I would say most of the general jobs are Walmart Home Depot entry level jobs because they're trying to get their life back. When I moved into the sober house that I lived in, I won't tell you which

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one it was. I scooped ice cream >> and an ice cream place and the guy said, "Wow, you're really good at this." I said, "I was a lawyer." >> Can friends and family visit at any hours? >> Um, families usually mad at us at this point, but the answer is, "Of course they can visit." >> Okay. And then when we see a violation after hours, who is that reported to?

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>> So, what's going to happen once the house opens? I'm going to have a contact person. I'm going to invite and maybe not cuz people are kind of mean, but I'm going to invite people in to look at the house. I would hope that you would come and meet the kids, the the people who live in the house.

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>> I will come. I I will come. >> There you go. I will have all these people come in and see violation. It's reported to the the house. >> I'm going to give you a phone number once we open. >> Okay. >> And you can call and how many slaps on the wrist until someone is curfew violation? >> That's an excellent question.

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>> I'll get you next. The decision to kick out a young a person in a recovery house is a difficult one. I'll tell you what these owners are going to do. If they're ne if they're positive or drugs are out while they're out. If there's multiple rule violations, which is something neighbors wouldn't see, not making their

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bed, not doing their chores, cleaning the dishes, whatever it is. If you get multiple, you get out. Each owner handles it different. that on-site operator would probably the person to best make that decision on a case-byase basis. Does that make sense?

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>> So there's nothing the res if we see somebody multiple times out at 12:00. >> If we see someone multiple times and you call my owners, I would have a strong >> But it sounds like that nothing's really >> Well, I would have a strong sense that they would ask that resident to leave. If you're reporting multiple violations and you're a neighbor, my client wants

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you to like us. They had me come up here and talk to you. >> They're doing a really bad job at it. [laughter] You didn't know that challenge that I'm going to tell you. >> If they had started a little bit, >> the lawyer will tell you what Oxford does. Oxford just

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>> the lawyer will tell you that just we come in. I want to answer your questions. I don't want you to be afraid of me. I'm not going to >> I'm not I'm a police officer. My husband's a police officer. I came to this town. >> We have guys from bottles and badges who live in these houses. Okay. >> So, there's a you know what a bottles and badges is, right?

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>> I understand. The badges I'm not scared of. It's the people without the job that I'm a little concerned of because that's when you start to get a little bit curious. >> Let's talk about that. So, someone comes in doesn't have a job. That's the person that's going to be in probably IOP treatment. That's someone who's going to be in community service. Most houses

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>> and they're living in a house or not. >> Of course. Most houses if you don't have a job in two weeks, >> they kick you out and that's the [laughter] rule. >> 30 seconds. But I'm I just wanted to know going forward. >> If you're if you're fearful for your safety, you call a police department.

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>> I for my safety. I'm fearful for like 10 more of these popping up because what's stopping my neighbor? >> I think that's a reasonable question. >> Yeah, >> that's all. Yeah, >> I can answer that if they let me. >> Go ahead. You can you can >> Sure. >> And then sir, we'll get to you right then. >> I'll go back. >> Cooperative sober living residences are so difficult to open right now because

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of the housing cost. >> I think you should do it. You guys move our houses empty nesters. We'll do your house. >> In New Jersey, I don't have to tell this woman how expensive property taxes are. >> I know. >> So, because of that, they're very hard

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to open. My phone that I have in my pocket runs three times a day for a bed in Mama's County. >> Okay. Thank you, sir. >> Good evening. My name is Dr. Robert Lavine. I live at three Klein Court, Old Japan.

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I've lived in this town for 34 years. I've been a physician for 40 years. I've known uh many people who have been in and out of sober homes. I've known many people who have had alcohol

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problems and drug problems. people like your children, kids from old Japan who got hooked on drugs because of sports and surgeries and pills. And what's not being said tonight is that

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everyone's complaining about the the violations and no one has said anything about the people. And that's what you're all scared of. And I will tell you that sober people are some of the best people I've ever met in my entire life. They

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have morals much more than most of us. They are kind. They've learned what it is to die and to come back and to live and to share life. And it is really sad for me to hear everyone couching this in

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violations that is just BS. It's not about that. If the sober house is not condoned by the state, yes, it probably shouldn't be here, but it has nothing to do with the people. The people I will

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say that, >> sir. Sir, >> I'm telling you that no one's saying it's it's the people, but that's the unsaid word in his room tonight, and that's all I'm going to say. >> Thank you. Thank you, boss. Anybody else?

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>> Ma'am, >> please forgive my very froggy voice. I'm Brianna Brigstein. I live at 20 Greenway in Old Tapan. I'm going to Forgive me. I hear what you're saying, but I'm I'm not going to address you directly.

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I just want to tell the council I'm going to give my my contest is I moved here 9 years ago. I have two little children who who live here. I have a son who just started at the elementary school. As a town, we have a lot of pride in our school. We have a lot of

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pride in our town. Our town has a sense of community. Many of us put in time, effort, work, whatever else we can put in to our town. I find it concerning and somewhat disingenuous.

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You continue to bring up the Oxford House, which I appreciate that that that I think is a nice tie in. I I'm looking at an Oxford House study that was done in 2025 in LA. When it was done, it it was specifically

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looking at relapse rates across the the facilities that were part of this study. They did it at intervals. For example, first four months, first six months, 12 months, 18 months, and the the duration expanded.

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When it first came out, the numbers made it sound like, for example, left within the first 12 months, you're looking at 26.7% of people who had come into the facility leaving.

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The numbers continue. As time progresses, the percentage increases because if you have any familiarity with any of these styles of programs, once you make it through your first two weeks, you're more likely to make it through your first six months. You're

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more likely to make it through your first year, and on and on it goes. However, these studies omit any individual who leaves the program prior to completion. So if you are evicted from the facility,

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you don't go down as a data point. So if you are removed from the facility because you begin using again, then you are not part of those numbers. So to sit in front of this council, to

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sit in front of our town and say, "Oh, no, no, I guarantee it won't be a problem." No one can offer that guarantee. Unfortunately, I wish every person who goes on this path the greatest success and I wish

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that we could offer 100% success to anyone who struggles with this. Unfortunately, the potential [snorts] for that to bring something into three parks and three schools within the same

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neighborhood crossing no major streets from this facility is a real concern, an understandable concern from the town. No one here wishes yourself, your community, anyone in this facility

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anything other than the best. But that is a neighborhood and this is a town where people are anticipating, planning and actively raising young children. I think it is a demonstraable statement to

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say that unfortunately once individuals are afflicted in this way they bring elements of that lifestyle where they are. It would be unreasonable for us to expect that in all the people who come

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to this facility and I have no doubt that many would be gems. It would take one. It takes one on one bad day and you will ruin a child's life forever. That's what this town is concerned

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about. They don't wish bad for you, [applause] but they are acutely aware that you can walk from that facility crossing no major roads and hit three schools. Three schools where our

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children are very accustomed to being after school after hours are middle schoolers. They go and they they have the kids night out and they think they're so big and they're so proud and so independent and their

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families feel comfortable to let them go to the middle school with some parental chafferons and feel that independence for themselves. We believe in the strength that that gives our kids. That will change. That will not be able

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to be continued. We talk about riding your bike and walking to school days. Kids are not going to ride their bikes after dark. Their families will be concerned. It is a reasonable, understandable expectation.

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No one is saying it's everyone. It unfortunately it does happen and it happens so it happens. So to stand in front of this group >> whether it is yourself, whether it is the owners of the property or anyone

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else, the state to come in here and say that that is an unrealistic expectation is absolutely baseless. It will happen. It cannot be here. [applause] Thank you. Sir,

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>> good evening. I'm Bruce Anton, three Todd Lane, Ultra Pan. I have two questions. not about whether it's good or bad to have this as a facility, but the first question the first question is

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why do you want to be in a town that doesn't want you? Because I know from my experience in life that people don't want you here. No matter how good you are,

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the violations will multiply and [snorts] then it becomes a confrontation. You don't want that. Not from a town like this. That's number one. Number two, how many violations

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can you have before the state takes away the license? How is that defined? >> Yeah, please, Alex. >> So, the answer to the DCA, that would be a question to the DCA. I could tell you that they are very stringent with their

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violations and [clears throat] finding I wouldn't say take license but finding I think if there was a if there was a pattern of violations I think Mr. Kenny would take the license. >> I haven't seen that. >> You don't you don't know >> the answer to this first question if I

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can >> please >> to show you 5 years from now when I come back here and no children taken by my by the residents of this home. No assaults are happening on ask me a question. Please finish and I can show you what

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great people we are. And when we have the open house and hopefully someone like you, someone like this gentleman up here on the council and the mayor come in and see the the people that are in this home. I think your view will be different. There was recovery homes

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opened in a town that I didn't agree with 5 years ago, a town in Mammoth County, and they did that to show people that people in recovery are lawyers, asking the question, police officers, right? judges, peer court judges,

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municipal court judges, and people who work at Wawwa and Walmart. We are a diverse group of people, and we don't assault children. We just >> I didn't I didn't say anything about assaulting children. >> I'm just Why do you want to be here if

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nobody wants you here? It doesn't make sense to me because as you could hear, and I don't even have any children here anymore in the school system, but as you could hear, everybody's concerned. you and them and

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your your um the people in these houses, which I have nothing against any of these people, but are going to be watched so carefully that there's going to be a problem. I mean, I'll say right now, there will be

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a problem. >> I hope I hope not, too. But it it just seems to me that the last thing I'm going to say from what I understand about this, the limited research I did,

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this is not only for the people. This is a huge profit motive for the people that rent, own the house, rent the house, and everything else. And the small fines of a,000 or 2,000 do not mean anything.

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Cooperative silver living residences are not major profit makers. They're they're residential homes. They're not. They're just not I would think they put I'm not going to try to convince people of something. >> It's not what I've read. But it's it's a okay. Even if they're not even if

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they're not, why would you can't answer me the question. There is no answer to what I asked you, >> which is why do you want to be here if nobody wants you here? that immediately before you even get here

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this confrontation possible. [clears throat] It's not the right way to do things. It's not the right way to do things. That's all I >> Thank you, Bruce. Thank you. [applause] >> Can I ask you a question, Mr. Mayor? >> For Alex, >> to the young lady's point before, um,

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when was the last time a resident got evicted from one of your facilities? mine or my clients? >> Your clients? >> Uh, I don't know the answer to that. Probably every 30 days maybe of the three houses. Maybe every 90 days. >> Every 90 days someone gets evicted. And that's for violating

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>> evicted or moved out. Evicted, >> relapsing, aren't even a child. There's just there's no evidence for that. There's zero. None. Okay. >> I I have a question while you're up and then I I'm going to bounce something to Bob real quick.

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>> You mentioned, Mr. DeA, >> um you mentioned that you guys leased the front building. There's three buildings on that, >> correct? >> On that lot. >> Could you share how long, just out of curiosity, how long is that lease for? >> I believe two years. >> Okay. >> But I'm not sure. >> That's fine. >> I'll get back to that. But I believe

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that's two years. Um, you only Bob, do you know what's is there construction happening in the other two buildings? >> I believe there are permits for some work in the middle in the middle. >> Are they going to be used for residential use? >> Not that I'm aware of. >> Can they be used for residential use?

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>> The middle building. >> So, the only one residential home, >> right? >> So, if they have a two-year lease, nobody can move back there, >> right? And I'm just back in. >> Thank you, >> sir. >> Hello.

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>> Hi, Sam Palonsky. Um, I'm here representing my parents who live at 118 Phyllis Drive. So, it's two houses away from where your property is. Um, I'm one of the children who grew up in this town. We moved here when I was nine. I grew up riding my bike, walking to school. Very safe town. Um, I think that, you know, everybody wants to make

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sure that, you know, the people who are in these houses are getting the help they need, but also want to keep the town safe. Um, with that being said, can you um explain why this location, why Ultan was chosen for this home? >> There's I I can't I can't answer that. There's such a need for this housing.

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And I know most owners, I'm sure this owner is the same way. Get them on major roadways like that, not in the middle of a residential neighborhood because then people obviously get upset. So, it's a good fruit fair. It's close to the heart of town and it's just a good location and it became available. One of the

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problems that cooperative so living resident owners have is getting homes. So this particular operator uh rents the homes. Some of the people that I represent and myself, we purchase the homes. So it's a very different thing and it's a challenge. It's much

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got to be much worse here in Bergen County to locate homes because of the high value >> and it doesn't work. >> Thank you. Thank you. So what I I know that you're not very familiar with this area. Um growing up here and I >> I live in Riverdale. I've been here a million times. >> Riverdale or Rivervale? >> Riverville.

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>> Rivervale. Okay. Um, so growing up here, I still live in Bergen County. Um, you know, the there's very little public transportation. I think where the home is, um, correct me if I'm wrong, there's no sidewalks are directly accessible there. Do these people have cars? Do they drive? Do how do they get to their

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jobs? >> This is the conversation I having with some of the nice people outside. This is the conundrum that operators find themselves in. If they had individual cars, there'd be too many cars and people would be upset. even though the driveway is very large. So, [clears throat] what most operators do is they use the vans and it's, you know,

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it's a good thing and a bad thing because people see the vans and they get upset or people I spoke to in the parking lot, but the vans allow the in-house operator to control where the people are going and to get them to and from. Does that make sense? So, you're not going to have nine cars, especially

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in this home because there's no street parking. If you think of a residential a regular residential street and all the people have cars, they'd be lined up. It'd be a disaster. >> Do they have driver's licenses >> when they come in? Some do, some do not. >> Okay. >> But these young these people will be

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it's the van is used to get them around. >> Okay. Um yeah, I just wanted to point out you mentioned Walmart. I mean the closest Walmart's on Route 59. Um there's another one in North Bergen. They're not very close to this location. Um Waw Wa Route 17 or probably in in

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Westwood or wherever Emerson. Um they're not very close to this location. >> Sorry, there's no >> Wawa. Route 17 is your closest wa. >> Okay. So the so the places you're mentioning are not close to this location. So it seems very interesting that this location would have been chosen for a home when it's not

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accessible to many businesses that you're mentioning. So it seems a little suspect. >> I give them as just an example. I the businesses in towns what I call those entrylevel positions. Your Shopights, your Walmarts, your Lowe's. >> We don't have anything mailboxes.

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Well, we don't have any of those any any level of >> I I understand that. I do understand that. >> Um, just just pointing out that there's not many work locations that are directly accessible via walking, via public transportation. So, the location is very suspect. Where are the other

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locations that this owner owns in Bergen County? >> I will provide that to you later. It's okay. >> Yeah, we would like to know that. Um, >> yeah, I think you've answered all my questions. >> Thank you, sir. >> Thank you. Thanks, patches. Do I say my name and address? >> Please.

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>> Patches mro m a g a r r r r r r r r r r r r r r r r r r r r r o [clears throat] um for Churchill Roads. >> Katie Katie, thank you for being here. I hope you have the best contract ASAP like yesterday. and mayor and council.

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Thank you all for being here as volunteers and giving your time. It's always much appreciated. Um I've organized my thoughts from like micro to macro. For the gentlemen who made the case that it's not about the operator, it's being

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unsaid about the people. We all know and love people who've had addiction issues. And we all know it's extremely rare for someone to wake up one morning and decide to put their drug of choice aside and quit cold turkey forever and ever. That's why there's testing. And I don't

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have faith in the operators of 20 cripplebush who've proven themselves to show flagrant disregard for the law. Oversight and compliance is the bedrock of making the sober living work. And this operator of this effort lost me at

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hello. Someone starts off without following the proper procedures and puts the cart before the horse operating without an approved license. I would hope that application would be denied. So for the mayor, council and attorney, how can we impress upon the state DCA

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that they have proven themselves to be non-compliant and should be denied a license? >> Well, the mayor, as you said, has already sent a letter to the DCA outlining the the town's concerns. >> Okay. Um, I would be very much in favor of spending taxpayer money to get

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representation by a legal expert with vast experience in matters like this. Is such a search underway? >> Stay tuned. >> Okay, >> stay tuned. >> Stay tuned. Um, and for the inspector who talked

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about how we all have things that we've done in our house that maybe we're supposed to have permits for, to my knowledge, I haven't. But you're also not depending on me to oversee a sober living house based on my integrity. So,

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if I've proven to not have that integrity, that's a very different and important distinction. Which brings me to the macro issue. I'd like [clears throat] OT to have a big reputation, like a badass reputation for being

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proactive and vigilant in enforcement of all zoning and codes, all legal inspections and compliance, so that when some entity like this one at 20 Cripplebush gets it

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in their head to just start something up without following the proper procedures, they might decide to look elsewhere. because OT just seems like too much of a headache. I'd really like to work on that reputation. [applause] >> Just a second, >> sir. >> Patches, if I could just say Pat, just

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for one second, um, you know, I've been on this council like 27 years, right? And I've been through multiple building inspectors. Nobody's more by the book than Bob Rush. I mean, cross your tees when he comes to your house. >> Okay.

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in a good way. Okay. >> Oh, good evening. Ed Shim 15 Glenn Alan. Um there's a lot of good things that have been said tonight and um it just

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sounds like the issues are focused in a lot of different places and one in particular which has to do with the people that are living there. I know that under the Fair Housing Act, you're on a protected class. I understand that. But I think the issue that maybe we need

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to focus on is the zoning ordinance and the fact that if the DCA and the state can undermine um different towns and completely dismiss them and not inform the burough council to open, let these

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things be open in residences. I have a problem with that. Um, I'm an architect. I deal a lot with land use attorneys and zoning laws. And I also deal with a lot of people who like to stretch the definitions of zoning

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ordinances and the laws within it. This is a stretch. Okay. Um, it may be compliant by the book in one person's eyes, but in my eyes, a single family home, someone asked the question tonight, what is a single family home? A

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single family home is a home for a single family. These are eight unrelated presumably eight unrelated people living nine unrelated people living as a group and the state is calling them as one

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household. Give me a break. Okay. One can also argue that it's a multif family, not a single family. But what I see it as is it's an institution because it's a rehab center and a rehab center should be classified as either a

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healthc care facility or or a um an institution. So to me an institution like this which it what it should be categorized as does not belong in a residential neighborhood and I think that is the problem that any town would

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have to deal with. So, I don't necessarily I listen I I think the the woman here that was earlier up made a very good point. It just takes one and that's what I'm afraid of. Okay. Um

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but I really think that this is a broader topic, a more macro topic about zoning and how people are stretching the laws and the definitions of zoning. And this is an institution. And by by zoning laws, an institution is not allowed in a

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residential neighborhood. Period. [applause] >> Mix of 15 [ __ ] bush. I just want to clarify one thing. There's not seven people living in that house. We have videos of seven to 10 men getting out of three vans every day. Every day. So this

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[ __ ] about this BS with this seven people living there. There's 25 to 30 people at any time. And just as yesterday they were living there. I don't care what anybody says cuz a van pulled up and got a couple and left. Okay. So there's not seven. That's all I

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just want to clarify. Thank you. >> Thank you. [applause] >> Hello. Christine Clark, Charles Place. So, I was very upset a few weeks ago with our town council, all of you, and I've done some research and I've realized you've

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been completely misled this whole time. And Eric, you're misleading everybody as well. The DCA, I've done some research and has confirmed to me that these houses are lightly supervised housing. Okay? Curfews are not mandatory. It's

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based on what the operator wants to do. So, when my neighbor sees random people walking around the neighborhood 2:00 in the morning or when the 90-year-old woman who testified last time we were here that they climbed the fence and were in her backyard looking at the pool

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and then ran back down the hill, it's lightly supervised. And that is the truth of what the DCA has actually told me. Um, and up until it doesn't there's two separate issues. They're applying for a license and then the municipality

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has every right to enforce their own ordinances and rules. Two separate things. So whether they get a license but it's still violating our town rules, we have every right to enforce our town codes and rules. Um they also confirmed

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uh yes they violated their fines. They were ordered to evacuate. I have reports as just stated people who live very close by even after the evacuation vans are still pulling up. So leads to questions if it's continuing to be violated. Then

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also if you do some more research the state actually put in stricter rules as it relates to these soberistic living uh facilities. I have a copy of chapter 60 here which starts defining all the terms and it says cooperative sober living

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residents mean a boarding house that serves solely as a home for individuals who are in recovery from drug and alcohol addiction and is intended to provide environment where these residents can support each other's soriety recovery. So it clearly says it's a boarding home. It's not a single family residence. Okay. So we do have

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options as a town. Our town wants to work with you. I think we discussed last time you said stay tuned. I recommended a special counsel that could get involved. We need to know what our rights are. I think you guys are operating to the best of your ability given the limited facts and that we have because we don't have experience with

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this. We need all hands on deck because we cannot be misled when the facts are different. So town has every right they should do it. Um, also stepping back before this lease and before the even purchase of the property, my understanding is two other

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people at a minimum have had approached the town to say, "I'd love to buy the house. Can I operate my small business out of the garage?" The answer was no. I'd love to buy the house. Can I rent out um a piece of the property to another family? The answer was no. We cannot have a double standard. The rules

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in the town needs to be fairly applied. This is a business operating out of a single family home. it violates our rules. So, it's not about the residents of that home and their sobriety. It's about here's what our rules state. You can't make exceptions for certain people

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and not others [clears throat] because guess what? Then everybody's going to want to start operating these. And my understanding is they are popping up everywhere. For what reason? I don't know. Maybe it is lucrative, maybe it's not. But if the the facts are that you really want to help these people, why would you put them in a house that was

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unlicensed, uninspected by the state, I think they're owed a refund, whatever money, if this is personal pay, I hope they're watching. I hope you issue them a refund of any money that you've gained over the past four to five months because it's you're not helping them.

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You're abusing the system. Um, [applause] and I don't know if the fire inspector wants to address it, but my understanding is there was well over 10 beds in the house. >> At least 10 beds is my understanding. >> I don't I don't have a count of them.

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>> Okay. My understanding was a three-bedroom house. There's over 10 beds in there. Sounds unsafe to me, but we could go back and get those facts. Um, and you know, the the CEO lists two individuals per Mary. Those individuals knew what they were planning to do, but

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they didn't put the LLC on the CO because that would show you that it was leasing a business was leasing the property, which is not allowed according to our town. So, they're applying with an LLC for the license with the state. They're giving you a co for rental that has individuals names. Again, misleading

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our town and not giving you all the facts. So you didn't have the facts to kind of re rebuck this and it's just like let's just push it through so that the state can get the license and then there's nothing the town can do. That's BS. There's plenty we can do to treat all the residents equal playing field.

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Bob, you give everybody a hard time here. Good for you. Good for you. But it should be it should be equal. It should be equal. And I don't want you to feel like you have to tiptoe around certain residents and not other

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residents. If you're going through my garbage, you go through their garbage. If it seems like they're up to no good and you're going in people's backyards, go in their backyard, figure out what's going on. Everybody should be treated fairly and equally. There's no special, you know, treatment in this town. And that's why we love the town because

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everybody knows you have to abide by the rules and ordinances of the of the town. Um, I know I'm coming up on my time. Um, I do also want to give a shout out to Katie who's doing a fantastic job. Not sure why she's still being called officer in

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charge. She was given the title of chief months ago. My understanding she has no >> she wasn't >> always been officer in charge. >> She's she has a responsibility for months now. >> That's for sure.

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>> With no gone through two school lockdowns has done so much for our town. Loves our town. Lives in our town. cares about our children. Our kid our kids are are friends. She's on call 24/7 because she's friends with everybody. Something's going on. Before they call

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911, they're calling Katie to make sure she's aware they could help her. It's ridiculous. She doesn't have a contract yet. Please do the right thing. Treat her like all her predecessors were treated. If there's back pay due to her, give her the back pay. Just give her a contract. This is crazy.

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[applause] >> Thank you. Sir coattails. >> You're next then. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I got >> Yeah, I cut in line, but that's all right. I have a line cutter. I >> know >> Mike Laviola 16 lane will depend. >> 10 seconds left. Mike,

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>> I know. >> I know. Thank you. I uh I also want to uh mention about the lack of a a police chief here in town. being in the business myself almost 40 years. I rose

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to the uh the uh rank of captain before I retired. And let me tell you, every police department needs a leader, needs a chief who's in charge and could help their fellow officers make the right

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decisions and stuff. This officer in charge is wonderful for a month or two, but let's not carry this any longer. This is ridiculous. You have a very qualified candidate here who cares about this town, has children in the school in

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this town, lives in this town, and she gives her whole life to this town. Let's let's make the right decision here, guys, and get off of our seats here and do the right thing and and hire her as chief. >> All right.

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Now, I I I I I speak as an experienced law enforcement officer myself. We need a You need a leader. You do. You really, really do. Not this officer in charge enough. It doesn't work. It doesn't work for long. Believe me. So, please do the right thing, guys and gals.

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>> Thank you. >> All right. Really would appreciate that. Thank you so much. >> Thank you, Mike. Sir, >> Latos, 29 Dearborn Drive. Um, I have a couple more questions. Do they have a license from D >> DCA? >> DCA. >> No, they don't. Are they currently

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operating with people living in the house? >> No. >> They were. >> They were, but no. >> Up until >> Thursday or Friday. >> So, since November, they've been charging people $200 a week. >> Anywhere from 8 to 10 people. >> I don't know if it's November. >> January. >> January.

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>> The other question I have is earlier somebody said that there was only men in the house. Is there a reason there's no women in the house? Is that a requirement? Is that a restriction? >> It's a restriction. So, House is either men or women, >> right? >> There is an issue with the gay community. It's a whole mess. But generally speaking, it's men and women.

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>> Understand? For the obvious reason, >> correct? >> Uh I was I was in prisons for 4 years. I was in jail for a year and a half before I became a police officer for another 13 years. I remember in jails seeing the same people come in every month, every other month. Those same people I would see and arrest them on the street couple

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years later. And now those most of them are dead from overdoses. We do at least three or four overdoses a week on a regular basis. Now, where I work, we have about 20 to 30 cops on the road at a time. Alapan, limited number. I don't know. How are we supposed to be prepared

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for that? Like I we can't have people just relapsing and suddenly overdosing. Is there like >> I'm sorry I don't understand the question. >> Like how often how how many you said there's eight people, but we're here and there's 10 beds. Are they having >> eight people and one operator who

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administers or runs the onsite? The DCA has another regulation for an offsite person as well, but I don't count them in because they don't live there. >> Fair enough. >> But they need a regulation, >> right? [clears throat] >> Are they allowed to have guests? Are they allowed to have friends over? Is this is this something like that?

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>> Overnight guests? No. Can friends visit? Sure. >> Fair enough. >> All right. Thank you, sir. >> Thank you. >> Anybody? there. >> Uh Doug Zimmerman, 278 Orangeburg Road. I'm going to keep this quick. Um so I know this is a lease and this question is for Mr. Rush. Who would get the

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violation? Would it be the owner of the house that lives in Norwood or would it be the the lease seeds >> the violation for >> uh any building violations, permit violations if they are found? >> Okay. Does the owner has the owner been

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part of any conversations? Does he know there's possible violations that are forthcoming? >> Well, no, there's not. I haven't had any conversation with him for any violations or suspect suspicion of work. >> Okay. >> Um I know that there was work there, but I have to get in and see it physically.

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So, I know exactly what the violation is because the last thing I want to do is write a violation and then um have them steal it and then uh maybe inaccurate. >> Understood. And last question in terms of this facility operating on the property, does it change the property

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tax standpoint of the property because it's a medical facility? Does it change the ratable? Does it >> It's not a medical facility. >> Not a medical facility. >> It's not a medical. There's no treatment being done at that location. >> I don't know the tax. [snorts]

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>> Yeah. It would be possible for the assessor to assess it based upon income as opposed to based Oh, Barry, you coming back? >> Yeah, I'm coming back. >> Hi, Mary Laviella, 16 Todd Lane. I'm coming back to the lease. Um, so when I

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do a lease for my clients, we fill out for the sale, you know, or the or the rental, we have to state who's in the who's renting, kids, name, you know, names, ages, what have you. If they're adults, the names of the adults.

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Now, there's two names on here. I know that the bureau doesn't get a copy of the lease. I think what we should do is get a copy of the lease and see exactly what they intended. If they intended to the seller, if the seller knew about it,

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then they're all in together. And they did this illegally from the get-go from the video from them advertising as of January 19th, 2026 that it's a brand new sober living house. I have the video if you'd like me to show it again. I know they took it

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off of theirs. I copied it. I have it. That being said, they it's illegal what they were doing. What does the lease say? If the lease states doesn't state that that's what they're running, are they actually able to do it,

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>> Mr. Gibler? I don't really answer. >> We're not a we're not a party to the lease. So, we can't we [snorts] can't enforce what's in a contract between two separate parties, >> right? But if they're do if whatever the lease is like whatever they have, okay,

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say Bob and Betty are renting this house, but Bob and Betty decides to subleasase it to something like this. >> It's not an issue that the town can be involved in because the town is not a party to the lease. >> That would be something that the own the owner

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>> that the owner would be able to enforce the terms of the lease, but that's the only person that can. >> Okay. And we have no um nothing in the ordinance for having something like this run subleasasing to a party that you

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know said oh this is it's only going to be two people and then you have 8 to 10 people coming in and out on a weekly basis >> daily. Well whatever. >> No >> no police. Yeah I know. Just asking. Okay.

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Thank you. >> Great. Out of your way again. Stephan Vakton N Todd Lane. Uh would do you as a act of good faith to try to see that we're trying to reconcile here and heal something. Would you invite Bob Rush to

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do an inspection of the home? >> No. No. Today? >> Right now? >> Right now? >> Right now. I can't. >> Sure you can. As an act of good faith. >> Talk to your client in the hall. >> Talk to your client in the hall. Ask him what he thinks. We're asking for a good faith. Show some good faith.

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>> I just We're asking We're asking >> Let this conversation happen right here. >> We are asking if Well, I'm asking if you would extend an invitation. Bob has no legal right to enter the place to perform an inspection. >> But he knows and we were right. But he

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knows and we all know that work was done in the house. Now everything is I promise. I swear you came out here in full force. I don't think that you expected. Allow me please. guaranteed. >> I I don't I don't want I want you to I said yes or no. Would you speak to your client who is here today and ask hey

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would we offer a good faith offer to the town and have the town come inspect? Put your money where your mouth is cuz I know that you're making a bunch of money here. >> Hold on. Hold on. How much you think I'm getting paid to be here today? >> Not Hold on. You asked the question. How much? >> Probably 350 an hour.

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>> Yes. >> Not a dollar. >> Christie, you're not an X. Hold on. is my >> using drugs. >> My brother-in-law lived on the beach cuz he couldn't afford to eat and he couldn't afford to live. I know what an

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addict is, but I'm saying that I also know what people go through and how you show good faith. My brother-in-law showed good faith to me and my family by doing a drug test before he comes back to my kids because we need him to show

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good faith. I'm saying show good faith to the community and fight the building inspector. If everything is hunky dory, as my teacher used to say when I was a little little kid in school, just help me. I'm hearing about the steps. >> It's everything. It's more about the

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occupancy because we think that there's a a real difference between the state of occupancy and the real occupancy. Now, if we were to arrange a time and place, you'll probably have some beds moved out

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and everything yada yada. You know, >> you'll stage the place right here. We are tonight. Make it make a good faith invitation to Bob Rush to go take a look. I'll buy him a three course dinner for his time if he so chooses to go tonight. >> I can't take allow.

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>> Alex. Alex. Yes or no? >> No. >> Okay. >> Phenomenal. Thank you. tell us I'm sorry had a hand up. >> Yeah, Victoria Phillis Drive. This is

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just I wanted to say that this is exactly an example of different rules being applied differently to the residents of the town and to you guys because I cannot possibly imagine not letting Bob in in the house when he is knocking and nobody here would. It's

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good to know that it's an option in case we all need to do renovations, you know, because [laughter] but this is exactly and nobody's would be tiptoeing, right? Probably we have to abide, we have to let Bob in.

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We have to make sure that we have our licenses, that we have our permits, otherwise we're in trouble. And here we have rules being applied completely differently. He's not allowed in and there's no recourse. So, >> but that's the rule for everybody. He's not allowed in.

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>> It's good to know now for future renovation isn't open, >> right? And there's not. >> Hi, I'm Sarah Corkran, 278 Orangeber Road. I've been a resident for 15 years. I grew up in this town. I went to the high schools. I'm a practicing lawyer.

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I've been litigating cases for 20 years. I appreciate what you do. Thank you for coming here today. Um, couple of questions for honorable Gallagher and and the council with respect to the CO that's issued to the the individuals who

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are listed on the CO. The the lease would have to reflect that the individuals are the one leasing the property. Yes, >> presumably. >> Okay. And every time there's a new

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person leasing this 20 [ __ ] bush, there's a new co issued. Is that how it works? >> Are you talking about the residents? Are you talking the residents aren't leasing it? >> The owner. Understood. But but

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>> it's two individuals who are listed on this the rental co. Yes. >> Okay. And and who issues the CO? >> Mr. Rush. >> Okay. >> Let's start. Okay. It's a it's a rental or a reset. >> Okay. And how do you determine whether

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or not that should be issued? >> Uh when that property is rented, uh typically the homeowner will or the real estate agent will come to the office, fill out an application, and then we go out for our inspections. And then if everything is satisfactory according to

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what for the building portion uh we have a very specific list that's in our ordinance that we go there we look uh fire prevention is a is another animal they look at smoke detectors uh no more fire extinguishers. So when you went to go inspect or

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evaluate the premises to determine if the CO should be issued to >> it's a resale it's a rental. >> Pardon my pardon my the wrong language. You observe did you observe anything in in the unit? >> We do that inspection one one of our

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inspectors did and he does all of all of the uh resale and rental inspections for you know and for Rail. So he's very well verssed with the what the uh requirements are what it is. >> Okay. And do you recall if he reported back to you that there seemed to be an

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exceptional number of people? Was it occupied? Do you have any other information about that? >> Well, that would be before anybody takes. >> Okay. Okay. Alex, with respect to the residents who are in the sober living facility, you indicated that many of them are

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recovering from um drug addiction. Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. Specifically opiate addiction. Yes. >> Could be. Yes. >> Okay. And so do some of those people then use Suboxone? >> Yes or no? >> Depends on each. >> Okay. And also would some of those

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patients who are recovering from opiate addiction typically be prescribed something like methadone? >> Not in this. >> Okay. But but Suboxone. Yes. Okay. And do you understand that Suboxone is a controlled substance? >> So I'm not the one that >> Yes or no? >> I know all about it. >> Okay. So is it a yes or no?

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>> I'm going to answer the question if I can improperly. If if you could just let me know what you think. Yes or no? >> I personal think I don't sponsor guys on suboxin. Okay. So guys that I sponsor are not on suboxin. >> I'm not asking about who you sponsor. >> Yes. Yes. My opinion on suboxin. If I'm in a meeting of NA and I'm chairing said

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meeting >> I don't let someone on suboxin chair. That's me. People don't agree with me. The answer to your question is in the rehab facilities I'll talk about discovery and new book specifically. More and more over the past 13 years that I've been cleaning silver, I've noticed that more and more suboxin has

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been described. Methodone seems to be very small, but Suboxin, the answer to your question is yes. I see more and more medical providers providing suboxin. That is a controversy in these recovery houses whether someone can be on suboxin. In my strong legal opinion,

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it is illegal to not let someone in on suboxin. >> Okay. So, >> my opinion about [clears throat] this. >> Okay. So are you aware if any of the residents who were previously occupying 20 kbble bush however illegally were they consuming suboxone during that

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period of time >> I don't know the answer but >> so they could have been yes >> in a typical sober house of eight or nine people the answer would be yes >> okay and you understand that to be a controlled substance pursuant to federal regulations yes >> many substances control that's why doctors

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you're trying to say that it's wrong that these people are on suboxin I'm not trying to say anything. I'm just asking a question. >> Really challenge that opinion. Medical providers, doctors, not lawyers prescribe that. A lot of the facilities more so someone who's used drugs and had

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problems are likely to prescribe suboxin. But it's an answer question I can't answer. >> Okay. >> Sarah, 30 seconds. >> Yes. And you're aware of the proximity to the schools. Uh and and how do you feel about >> any no problem whatsoever someone on suboxin which is not a mindaltering

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substance. It helps it. Suboxin, for those who don't know, if I'm if I'm an opioid user and I'm on suboxin, I can't use opioids. It blocks it. It makes me throw up. It's a It's a drug taken to block you from doing drugs. >> Right. So, you could take it and throw up and still take the drugs. Correct.

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>> Nobody's on some oxin getting high in heroin. >> Okay. Um, >> absolutely not. >> We good? Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Come on back, Nick. What she was talk what she was talking

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about is very good. That drug is a is a drug, right? Isn't 20 [ __ ] bush in a drug-free zone with the schools. >> Does anyone know that >> that got to be the school? >> It would be prescribed by a medical provider which is legal even in a

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drug-free zone. >> Get out. >> Really? >> Of course. >> I live behind a high school. I'm on blood pressure med. >> No, no, no. I just thought it was a good question because here here they're shooting up and they're doing a drug that they've been prescribed but they're right by kids. >> Okay.

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>> Thanks. >> Anybody else uh on any topic tonight? >> We don't have the bucks for Charles please. My understanding is the town code is >> my understanding is the town code with

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as it relates to rental what do you call it or not >> rental >> rental certificate you need a new one every time there's a new lease or resident. >> That's correct. So, don't you have jurisdiction to say the rental certificate had two gentlemen on there

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who were not living at that home and had residents living there that were not on the rental certificate. Right there, the town could have said, "You need to vacate. We need a new rental certificate that actually lists either the LLC or all these individual names and then you

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have a right to go in." Is that accurate or not? >> Um, I would say no. Only for a simple reason. Let's say a husband or wife, they rent an apartment and they move out and they leave and their son is okay and that's typically not a uh college or a

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new uh RC but but >> these two were never there though >> unless they were that I'm not aware. Were they ever living at the residence? >> Okay. >> Well, we we know now. >> This is news to me right now.

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So, I think that rental certificate is null and void potentially and you have a right to go back in before it ever a new lease is ever established. And if the new lease has is requested for an LLC, which is a business, and I know multiple

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people who asked the town to alter the single family residence to potentially have their home and a business, they were told no. So, I don't think we should make exceptions for other businesses. That's right. >> I'm not familiar with other

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>> keep in mind that um many many are seniors that we get are LLC's. Most of all of the houses that are bought um a lot of people do it for tax reasons, but almost every single new construction when they buy the house, it's under LLC.

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So >> that's more for an anonymity, I believe, not because they're really running a business per se because I don't think we're allowed to run a business out of our homes is my understanding. builds a home under an LLC liability during construction.

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>> Sir, you want to come back up? >> And what I'm trying to get at is an LLC. >> It's just the rules. >> Thank you. >> But not a business operating out of a single family home. >> If it's a um an LLC, it's typically not a business

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that's being ran out of. There are a lot of businesses that are ran out of people's homes. Painters, electricians, plumbers. that that's a legitimate business. LLC's ran out of people's homes, >> but they're not conducting the business at their home. They're not painting their own home. >> 100% right. But you are allowed that you

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want a business out of out of your home. This is this um is not considered it's not considered a business. >> My understanding is someone asked and they were told no >> business, but it's not considered a business. >> It's a business and my because clearly they're doing it for the money. They weren't doing it to help the people.

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>> I understand. Totally understand. Um, and are we gonna get an update on the special counsel tonight or another time? >> Uh, you'll have once we close. >> Yeah, >> ma'am. Listen to >> Claire Laurent, Pearl Court, a resident

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here for 52 years. I just have a question because I need clarification. It seems to me that an institution like your sober living uh to make it stable, you need someone in there who is there

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24/7 which you said you have. Well, I'd like to know about the qualifications of that person who chooses that person what are his qualifications. Um I think it's necessary that we know that. And the other thing is we learned

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from uh this young woman that uh the state said that these institutions are very loosely run and that people make up their own rules and regulations. So what is it? Are we going to have somebody there 24/7 if we're pushed into

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this or is it loosely run and they're going to make up their own rules about curfews etc? because we've had people saying that they have let their dog out and seen these people at 4:30 in the morning. So, what's the truth on this?

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>> Alex, yeah, sure, please. >> So, I wouldn't imagine that the DCA's ever answer would be Mr. Kenny or any of those amazing people working at the DCA say that they're run loosely. I can't fathom that that would ever be their answer considering the inspections they do. The answer to your question on the

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operator is this particular operator has over two years of recovery time and has experience doing this like I have experience doing because I've lived in these houses. The state law is there's no specific credential like a counseling credential or a peer recovery credential or something like that.

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>> Don't you think that would be necessary and important? >> The answer to your question is yes. the people who are going to operate this house the person has two years of recovery and in the recovery world dealing with recovery houses living in that environment that is a significant thing to give you the Oxford house

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>> no we don't need it [laughter] we are the only >> No you're better I thought you said >> superior >> is someone in that house would have six six months so a young man that I sponsor in the lock arbor house who's the president he's got six months of

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recovery That's a little different. He's not even on step four with all respect to the young man versus someone at this house who's done the 12 steps, who's maintained the recovery for two years, and who's the person who's going to be the on-site person. Remember, in a regular single family home on someone who's living there, no one's regulating

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the people there. This is a young person, a person who's going to be there for two years of recovery watching these people. And like the nice officer said, and he I think he's the best witness. You can tell when someone's using. I can tell. I can look into this crowd and I can tell you no one's using this crowd.

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It's pretty obvious. >> Well, wait a minute. >> Look closely. >> Can Can you explain then why people have been seen not in that house at 4:30 in the morning roaming around? >> I can't fathom that it's from that house. But once we have the

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very >> Hey, come on. Go ahead. >> I'm very confident that the neighbors are going to watch. I am very confident that the nice police officer, woman in charge is going to get uh videos left and right and I'm prepared to bet big money that when the

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officer investigates it, it's going to be people that don't live in the house. But we'll see. That jury's out. She's going to report. She'll tell me cuz if it's one of the guys in our house she sees running around, I'm very confident she's going to do something about it. >> Well, you know that they've been seen trespassing on people's property.

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>> We disagree factually on that. And and and >> you you can't factually disagree. You can >> trespassing their property. Why would you want to call 911 right away? >> I'll I'm going to tell you why. >> Because [clears throat] one of the persons said, "If I call the police and they come, they they might get upset

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with me, these young men, and retaliate in some way." It was fear. >> It was fear. So, [applause] >> well, it did. >> Heartbroken that it could be someone coming from our house. I would suggest and I I'm sure

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the officer in charge would agree with me that if you see someone trust I should call that over immediately. >> I think >> well I I would like to go back to the rules and regs for these institutions these homes. >> Claire, one minute just so you know. >> Oh no.

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>> Um so they make up their own rules. This is like a group committee go okay we can stay out till 4:30. We got to be in by 5. >> So that's a complicated answer. I'm going to direct you to the National Alliance for Recovery Residences, which

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is a website, National Alliance for Recovery Res. They have standards that run these houses. People like me tried to get the question the DCA to take those those regulations and make them law. It is not the law. Now, the

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operators who have this house follow the National Alliance for Recovery Residents standards, which are complicated. If you want to jump into that website and look at that that website and you'll see those standards that govern. This is a level one and level two house, not three

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and four. Those be like rehabs or halfway houses that people ask about. This is not a halfway house. There's no counselors. There's no food. There's no peer treatment. It's a bunch of people living together under a single group with no locked doors living as a single

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family pursuant to the United States Supreme Court. You're taking my time up. [laughter] >> Anyway, >> thank you, Claire. >> You're welcome. >> Ma'am, >> Francis Taller Rico, 13 Deber Drive. I just want to make a comment really. I've

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heard so much tonight, really good information, and I would really um ask the board according to the state again, they have to adhere to all zoning, fire safety codes of the town. So, that's number one. So, they're in violation of

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an arms length worth of things. Um, but I found something interesting. Operating without an approval can lead to severe penalties, including a 5-year ban for operators. I would request that the board do their due diligence and and really petition the state to impose that

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because there's been nothing but lies, deception. We don't trust you as far as we could throw you. Nor do we trust the people who run this facility. I am worried about my kids. I have adult children. I I babysit my grandkids. I

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live right next to the elementary school and these kids are all over the place. To think that any parent in this room has to worry even a second about their child is disgusting. And I find your behavior reprehensible. I am married to

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a lawyer. My son's a lawyer. Everyone in my family is a lawyer. Mary knows >> and they would never conduct themselves in the manner in which you have tonight. Making promises and guarantees. Not a person on this planet can make those guarantees or assumptions for someone

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else's behavior. Shame on you. [applause] Hi, young woman here. >> Sandy Palama, 33 Charles Place. Um, question for you. Um, you said there's eight men. >> Yes. >> All right. Um, the manager that

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supervises them. >> May I ask you his age, credentials? You don't have to tell me his age, but his credentials, >> his experience. >> He has two years of recovery. He has he has experience in the other house operating What does that mean?

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>> What does that mean? Yeah. >> So if I say oxy. So >> is he awake 24/7? Does he do shift? >> Sleeps. Of course. He's a So it's a regular single family home. He is the senior person at the house. He's the

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licensed operator at the house by the DCA. He's the person who enforces the rules. He's the person who administers drug tests. Other residents can test each other, of course. But he's the person overseeing him. He's the point of contact if the

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neighbor has a problem and thinks he's a trespasser and it's one of the eight, not somebody else. >> Okay. Is he vetted? >> Through Wait, through who? >> Through what? Like how is he vetted? You >> someone No, it's someone that the owners

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have known for a while who they trust to operate their house. the house president in an Oxford, a manager in a quattracial living residence is a very important person because they're the onsite eyes and ears. The person who can tell, oh my god,

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someone didn't come home, we have to notify >> if one sneaks out, what happens? >> That would be his responsibility. Correct. Very good. Correct. That's his responsibility. And if someone snuck out, that would be an offense where they would obviously not.

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>> Can you actually say under I don't know if you're married or children. Can you swear divorced two? >> Okay. Can you swear on your two children that there are eight men living there? >> There's no one living there. So yes, I can >> there were eight Were there eight men living? >> I don't know the answer to that. I don't

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believe so. But the answer is there's no one there. I was just there moments ago. >> Okay. But you were there a month ago when it >> was there a month ago. When it opened, were there eight men or were there 15? >> There definitely was not 15. 100%. No way. >> I wasn't there, but I'm sorry.

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>> But yet there's videos. >> There's videos on the ring system. >> That's You have the floor. >> I came tonight to try to educate people on what a cooperative sober living residence is. I've been attacked by some people. I heard it. I'm doing the best that I can to try to educate you and to

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assure you that there's no evidence whatsoever that my community hurts kids. It breaks my heart when a lady thinks that we're going to go hurt kids hurting kids. We're good people. We're in recovery. That we're >> This town is such a sweet town. >> I understand, but there's no evidence

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that anyone from an ox or so living wouldn't grab a kid. It's just not true. And I don't know how to convince you that that's just not something that happens. Mr. Deville, but >> you're not you don't know that that happened. If someone has a video, what are you going to apologize to to

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>> if one of the one of the guys at the house and kidnaps a child? >> I'm certainly also in charge of >> not kidnaps, grabs, gross, >> whatever. >> I'm certain they will in jail for the rest of their life. That would be a

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but it's not something. >> Okay, >> he's a prosecuted sex offender. It's not It's not my community. I'm sorry. just not >> all right. >> Alex, I just have something to say to so I I understand I I'm hearing your frustration that you came here to inform the community. I'll

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>> take my time, >> but but I have to but I have to tell you something. >> Just as it's not equally a a you know an appropriate environment from the from the perspective of the residents, it's also not the right environment for the residents of the sober house. I have

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visited family members in sober houses that were in, I would say, a more urban environment where they had access to sidewalks for walking and stores and facilities, places to go to work that they can walk to. This is not that type

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of neighborhood, right? They're forced to either walk in the street or through people's lawns, which I which is why I think you're hearing, you know, points about trespassing. They have no other place to walk. There's nothing within

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walking distance of that facility except for schools and playgrounds. [clears throat] >> It's not the right location for them either. [applause] >> You got you got two minute bonus. >> I'd like to piggyback on anyone who

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mentioned um I'm not going to say officer Katie. To me, she's acting chief Katie. I'm asking every one of you because I know every one of every one of these individuals in this room. My family's been here for 65 years.

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I've never ever met somebody that gives more to this community. Both lockdowns for my daughter's school, the fire that was in my backyard and over two or three houses. Who's who runs it? She does. Who

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runs the lockdown? She does. Please, I'm asking every one of you. I don't know a better person. Get her contract done. Just get it done. [applause] >> Coming back, Mike. >> One more time.

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>> One more time. Listen, uh, we heard a lot of stuff here tonight about this 20 [ __ ] bush and how they fraudulently went about moving residents in there without permits, blessings from the state, application

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wise, whatever. We heard a lot of this tonight and I really hope that you people remember this the fraudulent fraudulently how they did all this illegally for the future as far as letting this happen. Okay. I know you

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drew up an ordinance back in December. I I hope that has a lot of teeth in it for the future. Uh, and I I just want you to uh remember how these people, the renters here, went about this whole

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thing. You're going to guarantee these things, right? You your guarantee is no guarantee. Period. Okay. So, that being said, we don't trust you guys. Period. All right. Okay. I'm I'm done with 20

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[ __ ] [ __ ] bush. We had some major things happen in town this week. mayor and you're well aware of what happened here uh with the fire in the back and and the house over there on Leonard. Fortunately, everybody was okay. I'm very happy, thankful that uh they're all

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blessed and they're okay. Uh and also a very serious event at the high school the other day also. And as you know, again, I'm in law enforcement. I handled all that stuff when I was an officer. And I want to say from who I people I

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spoke to and and from what I read, our officer in charge did one hell of a job, okay, handling that whole situation. She really did her her uh release to the press and everything was excellent. It couldn't been any better.

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It could not have been any better. I used to do that when I was up there. Okay? She did an excellent job. She did better than I could do. All right? So, I just want you to know that you got a good choice here. Let's get the job done. Okay. Thank you for your time.

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>> Anybody else? >> Motion to close to the public. >> I second that. All in favor? >> I >> Okay. Don't you guys know what we're doing? >> Do we have any old business? We're not done yet. If uh you want to stick around. >> All right. Okay, we're going to go right

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into it. >> Do we have any old business? >> No. >> Do we have any new business in front of us? >> Talk about parks, please. >> Okay, >> new business.

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>> Yes, Mr. Mayor, if I could start. >> Councilman, >> so I think we heard a lot of good testimony tonight. Um, overall we're listening to a lot of concerned residents here. And while I have full confidence in our burough officials, our

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burough uh, professionals, I think it almost behooves us to consult some outside counsel on this. So I would like to make a motion that we [applause] to hire a professional who is who is

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wellversed on zoning and land use and hire him immediately. >> Second. [applause] >> Do we have any uh so we have a motion and a second. Uh any further discussion on it? Okay. So with that said, uh I am going

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to appoint a search committee. Uh that will be our council president uh Benagi, Councilman Yu, and Councilwoman Costello to get together to look at resumeums, to look at qualifications, and to bring

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back a proposal to this council to consider uh for our May 4th, which is Monday. Um so you got a tight timeline. uh come back with a proposal uh the firm the cap uh it's not endless so come back

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with a cap and uh the council will consider that u for adoption on Monday on Monday evening >> okay [applause] >> okay um we don't need anything ro >> good so all right we have we have uh so we have that we have a special committee

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they'll bring back information to us on Monday. Uh any other new business in front of us? >> I just I I I want to mention something. >> I hear, you know, I I hear a lot of support for our um >> Alex, thank you for coming >> for our officer in charge, and I am very

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appreciative of her, too. I just want you to let you know that our mayor here was a was the one who drove the fire truck to the fire a couple of days ago. he was the one that um was part of the team that was first to put water on the fire. So that was early in the morning.

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That was 6:00 in the morning that our mayor got out of bed to do that. So thank you. [applause] >> Thank you. >> Um listen, my my final statement is I want to thank all the residents. Um I want to thank you for your comments,

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your concerns, your ideas, uh your professionalism. Uh, I think this meeting went well tonight. So, I thank you for uh I think I I thank you for the professional manner there. I thank Alex for Is he gone? >> Uh, I thank Alex for his testimony. Whether you liked it or you didn't, uh,

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I appreciate that he he came in. Um, and I appreciate uh the research that our uh our burough attorney, our council, Thank you, Bob. Thank you, Evan. Did you leave? Evan's back there. Uh, thank you very much for uh um uh standing here

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tonight answering questions that I could not answer last Monday, a week ago Monday. So, thank you for uh for clarifying many of the things that I couldn't clarify uh last week. Uh thank you to our officer in charge currently, Katie Weaver. Okay. Uh hear you loud and

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clear on certain things. >> So, uh you know, this is how we this is how we get things done. So, uh, uh, you know, it's always what decisions come out off this D sometimes aren't always, uh, what what you like, but we, um, we try and do our best, and I'm I'm

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confident that we can, uh, um, work through this situation. So, thank you for everyone, mayor. >> Thank you. >> All right, with that, I will uh, >> Motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> All in favor? We are returned.