Perfect. --------- >> Sorry. >> We're good. >> Are we good? All right. Wow. So, do you remember where you left off? >> Might take a little bit. Okay. So, and I'll speak a little slower because I got animated. All right. So you have a definition of home occupation in your
professions that are allowed in the home include physician, surgeon, dentist, doctor, lawyer, architect, artist, realtor, insurance agent, notary public,
musician, engineer, accountant or contractor. teaching with musical instrument teaching with musical instruction limited to a single pupil at a time. Um and then the next one says however a home occupation is not interpreted to include collar or some
other things along the way. Right? So, if you're looking at the intensity of this use versus any one of the items that I listed, any successful physician or dentist or doctor or lawyer uh should have a number of folks feeding
a path to their door on a regular basis, >> okay? Far exceeding what we're ever going to have. And whatever those limitations would be, that person for that home occupation would simply be would be recognized that the there's the doctor, he's got the office and the
separate entrance. You know, it's his house, but there's his office. >> Uh there's a flow of people there because it's a residential home or residential accessory structure. That's the office. You know, he's got modest lighting, but it's all residential content. So in and in in that case there
is no evidence that I can tell that that person would have to make an application to the board for a site. If you had your logistics in your house, you repave your parking lot has a residential repayment, whatever those rules are. Obviously, you have your bulk issues and your impervious coverage and all the other
things, but you don't come in and do a site plan. You're right. So that's clear here. I'm willing. I think it'd be a fair idea that if we do something such as paving, striping, drainage, anything like that,
we'll come back for a site plan. The only thing that we're talking about at this point in time is maybe adding a light or two so that people can see their way. It is completely innocuous. The property is completely buffered. It's no more of a light than any homeowner can have and it'll be less as
a practical matter than you have on your garage. really kids play basketball at night. >> All right. So, that is, you know, that is it on the youth perspective. >> I I understand your point. I I certainly want to get back to Tom and the rest of the group, but this is a 1500 square
foot individual structure that has a half a dozen rooms in it. I mean, it is it and I keep going back to it because I don't know the answer to this because it's unusual, right? We seem to be see getting a lot of unusual things. Is this actually a commercial structure?
>> The history of this lot >> which is different than a home like when I see a home I'm sorry to interrupt you. I apologize but but the um but a home occupation is I can picture an architect an overweight bald architect for example
working from his home um and and working out of a small space in his playroom on the first floor. Um and that's that to me is a home occupation. I'm just I'm struggling um to understand that this looks like it's a standalone structure
and it resembles a commercial occupancy. >> Okay. Well, the structure has been there for many many many years. Um so the only thing that's happening to it is it's being converted from an open garage which frankly you've got the photos
there. It's a little unsightly. >> Yep. >> Um for sure. So to convert it and enclose it and you know improve the facade um and the home occupation of the ordinance does not distinguish from a an attached office to a detach. So, you
know, without walking around the town and finding them, there may have been many attached garages that got converted or a marriage house. I think they got converted. The homeowner puts an attached garage in a house and takes existing detached garage and converts it
to a home office. So, there's no real distinction in the ordinance about a detached or an attached accessory or accessory structure. >> And you understand why we're asking these questions. We we have to challenge it to make sure that we're doing the right thing if if this ends up getting
approved, right? We want to make sure it's in the best interest of everybody that comes to the site that everybody's safe and that it's compliant. >> And and that's why again, I'm volunteering. I'm offering that if we do something that is going to be outside of what one would expect for a residential property, that we're going to come back
for recycling. >> So, the only thing of tonight's issue is that they put lights up, which they could do at any residential property. But if there's any striping and again I'm saying this so that it's in the resolution memorialize I don't think we need to do a deed on it but you know if
you want I'll do that too but indicating again the plumbing uh drainage striping paving will be >> I'm sorry Tom I took over your but but it compelled me to ask all those questions so if you can keep going. No.
And and I thank you for your information and I I it's a good response honestly for me. Um I I don't think this use fits perfectly into any of the ones that are permitted, nor does it fit perfectly into any of the ones that are excluded.
So it's going to be a a call that the board has to make. It's a tough one. seems to be on it. >> But from my perspective, as long as we have reasonable triggers on when a site plan would be required so that neighbors aren't, >> you can build that in clearly as conditions, >> then I'm good. >> What's the square footage of the garage
right now? >> 507575. It's in the application, but now 1575 >> and that's not going to change. No. >> No. >> Okay. Just on the structure itself, are you taking the entire structure down or
working within the framework? What's >> the structure remaining? It's going to add the the walls and the design >> just to enclose it and create the rooms that have been described in the architectural plan. >> That's correct. Okay. >> And again, the architectural concentrate >> from the use perspective. You're willing
to identify that you'll reside at the house that this will be a home occupation. This will be part of that. >> That's going to have to be a condition. >> Yeah, it's going to have to be. >> You live there now? >> Yeah. You'll have no signage which is one of the requirements for the >> not necessary. >> You are asking for the two employees
which is deviating but um >> on the home occupation >> right and that um I had another question I lost it. Oh that you'll you'll restrict it to and just because it becomes more of a commercial activity that there'll be no
walk-ins. You're doing it only by appointment. >> We are by appointment only as of right now and that would continue. Okay, >> thank you. Uh, nothing further. >> Thanks, sir. Tom, >> uh, yeah, the only question I had is, uh, for future is, uh, is the paving of the area back there. I know it is
gravel. I can't imagine that your your clients would want to step onto a gravel surface after they're trying to get to their their event. >> As it stands right now, they can directly in front of the carport. Uh, six cars can easily with tons of room
park directly in front of the carport. that is where I would like them to park. So, all they're doing is parking directly in front of basically the front door, getting out of their car, walking one, two, three steps into the front door. So, yes, it is all gravel. Um, if obviously anybody required me to pave
it, I would, but I am not looking to pave it back there. I would like to leave it gravel. >> Paving will trigger you. >> Right. I would like Exactly. Which is why I would like to >> I would like to not I would love to keep it gravel if possible, but yes. And to alleviate any of that walking and walking over gravel or it to be a long
time, I want them to park directly in front of the structure and then they're just like I said getting out of their car, walking directly into the front door. >> Okay. You also said about uh limos possibly bringing your client clients before their event. Uh we're talking like large size party bus type.
>> There wouldn't that wouldn't be necessary because the amount of girls that we're doing wouldn't even trigger that. So I'm thinking more of like a van or like that. That's typically what we see. Okay. Um I wouldn't think although they could easily fit back there. You could turn a ladder truck around back there.
>> I'm well I'm well aware of property. >> I'm not welcoming that. I don't want that. I want to be as least impact everybody. >> Okay. I just don't want to see like large party vans coming in and out of that >> of course >> tight driveway in that location. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you.
>> Tom, just as a followup to one of your questions, the the gravel is hard packed. It's >> Yeah. >> It almost looks like asphalt when you walk on it. It's it's it's not going anywhere. >> Mr. Chairman, one other question. Um, would there be any events? Uh, will you have any bridal events or anything of that?
>> These are not weddings. Is this strictly just hair and makeup for them getting ready prior to them then leaving the location and going to wherever? >> Willing to stipulate to that. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Okay. Um, just and you answered most of my questions, but I did have a couple of
more. Um, one is so you're not selling anything. This is purely >> services. >> Services. Right. >> And then the second question is and and I thought I saw it somewhere in the application that there are a series of bulk variances already have been approved. I just >> Yeah. I just wanted to confirm that
that's that's accurate because >> not a big exaggerated. >> No. No. >> Okay. That was it. You you you understand that's my question. >> Two employees. That includes you. >> Yeah. >> So you're the homeowner. So it's basically one employee. >> Sure. >> Okay. And if I remember whenever our
last meeting was >> uh >> there was an ordinance whatever that was that said it can be used as the log place. >> The resolution is attached 988
September. >> I'm going to go probably 25 years before that. It was >> You have stories. >> Oh boy. >> Here we go. >> You broke that too. >> Make it sure >> I didn't break that fence. Um, so went from a log place to a
landscaper to a log place and then to you. If I remember correctly, that's basically what this is all about is changing it from a log place to a hair place or makeup place basically. >> Okay. And there is another hair maker in
town >> by the way, neighborhood the street. >> I do have another follow-up question though, something he just that prompted me. So then the fitting out of that space, will that require an is that an as of right application
for the >> it be permits being pulled for construction just like remodeling your basement. >> Right. Okay. So I want to make sure. Okay. Thank you. >> We could bring back the wood shipping if you'd like, but I think you >> we need more wood chipping. >> Bring back the mask. >> We never have enough. >> What else?
>> Any more questions? >> Can I ask one question, Mr. Chairman, with regard to that? Are you abandoning the wood chipping use on the property? Yes, we have no necessity for >> by approval of this. It is abandoned. That's what I wanted. I think matter of law. >> I don't need to ship anyone.
>> I think you might be selling yourself short and you may end up with bridal parties of 12 people and I'm a little worried about cars having >> again. None of them are going to be driving themselves. There's not a single bridal party that I've ever done that's driven themselves to either the hotel
where we got them ready at >> party. Well, let's limit the number then as a condition. >> Can we do that? >> Sure. You become >> Yeah. And and like I said, over 90% of the weddings that I'm doing, they're not even going to be there. So, this is going to be very far and few in between. Um I would say that the more likely use
of it is like when the prom girls come, like around prom time. So, you're talking, you know, semiformal junior prom, senior prom. Most of these rides are going to be at whatever their venue is that they're doing it. So very very small portion. >> Nice. If we had to put a number on it, give you mean an honest but comfortable
number. Six. >> Six to eight is the six to eight is the average bridal size party. Yes. Cuz that includes like the bride, five bridesmaids, and the mother of the bride and the mother of the groom. >> So what comfort what number would you be comfortable to assure you don't exceed? >> Eight. >> Very comfortable. >> Can I get you to do 10? So
>> I say 10. >> Ask the question. I love 10. >> Okay. >> Then my only other follow-up question is the same as uh Mr. Jung. I'm concerned about visibility when you leave because it's an
needs to be a long visibility triangle. >> Sure. So, um there actually is something that would be helpful. I I don't know if this is something that can be done. Um we don't ever park on the side right there on Old Tapan Road, but there is a pretty decent shoulder that's in there. neighboring houses will park and they
will park all night and overnight. >> Um, and that nothing is really ever done about that. So, I can just say for myself when I'm even just trying to turn out of my driveway and those cars are parked there, it is there to the right, no big deal. But to right here, yes. So, if potentially that curve could even
maybe be yellow or a portion of that curve be yellow, then there's no issue with visibility whatsoever because you come right out and there you could see to the right and you can see that it's to the left as long as none of the neighboring cars are parked right here in that shoulder. >> And let me ask you this, but I didn't
note this uh as you some drive down the driveway. So, no one is backing out on the road go back there and turn around. >> So, it's really not going to be any different concerned about, you know,
whatever vehicle it is, but it's going to be facing the right direction. It would be the same thing as if it was at an intersection public street. >> The excitement of a wedding or prom or something might cause a little recklessness. >> We need extra good visibility. And that's my last question. Go ahead.
>> All right. Well, so you think this is going to be less impactful to the neighbors than the tree cutting business? I mean I think definitely from just sound perspective >> go home now. >> Yeah. >> I had no question. >> I just neglected to mention >> is the D1 variant the boys can't
participate. >> Well that was fun. See you guys later. >> Thank you. >> Well really forget what I said. Thanks. >> You really can't ask question. >> See you next time. >> Bye. >> So the question would be if you're pulling out of the driveway. >> So may as well just stay up here at this
point. >> My turn. Right. >> Your turn. >> Yes sir. So, first I want to congratulate you on having a successful business for 15 years. That's a great accomplishment. >> Thank you. >> Um I was it not a commercial property
when the wood chipping guy was there? >> That was >> it's the definition of wood. >> It's the commercial use. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> Again, there's a v whatever the whatever the background was on it. A variance was granted in 1998. >> Free service bill. So that that doesn't
matter commercial or residential. That's not a a question here. Right. >> Right. >> Um I guess my only concern for traffic and parking >> is the prom girls cuz they will come
>> even if with mom you'll have a bunch of cars and they'd all be coming. >> You'll make appointments. I understand that'll you'll have to stretch that out. >> Well, that'll all be at my control the same way that it is now. the same way that I do a bridal party now or even how I structure it at my current salon
located in Harington Park. Again, we don't take walk-ins. Everything is by appointment. If they're coming in in getting both their hair and makeup done, that appointment is going to average an hour and 45 to 2 hours. So, and if I only I'm only one person. I can only do one makeup at a time. So, the next person can't come in until I've
completed that service. So I'll make sure that there's enough time in between that even that there's no overlap even if it's 15 20 minutes so that this car is not coming down the driveway while this car is coming down the driveway. >> So most of the wedding activity is going to be on Friday, Saturday, Sunday the
weekend completely on Sunday. It would only be on Friday and Saturday and again over 90% of the wedding activity will happen off. Yes. Uh it would be a very very small percentage that would actually happen at the house. >> So I have >> Sure. Thank you. >> Right. One of the occupations you
mentioned it's artist. Did I hear that correctly? >> That is correct. >> I think you are an artist. >> Makeup artist. You know it's it's I think it's already >> implied >> included. Yeah. That's that's my opinion.
>> Determination but also I was going to say that >> let's not let's not stretch. that too. >> Um, I want to ask you the salon in Harington Park, is that home based as well? >> It's a storefront actual store. Okay. >> I was just looking you up.
>> Yeah. >> Whoa. So, >> my other question is the building in the back. Does it have utilities or >> everything? Gas. Gas, water, and electric. >> Okay. >> I'm sorry.
>> No. Great question. That's it for me. Thank you. >> That's it for me, too. >> My only question, I guess, is not to beat the dead horse, but please, >> the the uh resolution that is currently in place provides specifically for a
wood chipping or wood splitting operation. If this if this application is approved, does that kill that ordinance? because it says it ran with the with the proper >> approval of this application results in
>> undoing that. >> Yeah. >> No longer valid. >> Stipul valid. >> So we have no ambiguity on it because one could make the army that run the land. You are willing to give up with regard to having the >> chip it. Yeah. I don't need to chip anyone.
>> If this is approved by operation of law, >> the commercial operation. >> Okay. >> All right. We need to open the meeting up to the public for questions. >> Make a motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> I. >> Anybody from the public have any questions or comments for Miss Nas
regarding her testimony? >> Seeing none, >> make a motion. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> All right. Next witness. Let's get Let's get this done tonight. >> We will get it done shortly. >> Got 20 minutes. >> This is where our testimony given this
procedure to stop. You got it. >> Yes, I do. >> Okay. State your full name. Spell your last name, please. >> Uh, Katherine Gregory, G O R Y. Business address is 96 Lwood Plaza, number 354, New Jersey. >> She's previously been qualified here and elsewhere. Didn't qualify as a
professional planner. >> Okay. >> Good evening, Miss Gregory. You've already been qualified as an expert. So, let's go on to uh the facts of the matter. Tell us that you visited the site and what you reviewed to prepare
for tonight's hearing. Uh yes. Well, first thing I'm do is going to hand out some photos of it and I do apologize. You all are going to have to share. I had a fight with my printer today. >> I think we have we have >> on my finger. >> So, I do apologize, >> Mr. These are ones that uh I didn't file
with you. So, >> are they different? >> Yeah, they are different. So, I'm going to need to mark one of them as everyone like twos. Thanks. >> I'm just >> But what this is, it's an 11 by7. >> If I'm doing a resolution, I need that
those phones. >> They're coming down, Bob. >> They're coming this >> I can also um email. So, >> you know what? I have I have the report via email which has the photos attached. I will forward the email to you tomorrow. >> Okay.
>> Okay. Yeah. So, um I apologize again that I don't have enough for other. >> Thank you. >> And we have a mini version. That's >> all right. So, what it is an 11 by7 sheet that was prepared by myself. Uh the the two left hand photos were taken
from Google Earth. The three right hand photos were taken by myself last week at the site. uh what you will see is a threedimensional aerial photograph in the upper leftand corner which identifies basically what I want to call the accessory structure in question uh
not only just the site then we have the aerial below that which identifies the site as you can see it's very oddly shaped lot uh my understanding from my client is that this uh particular piece of property at one point in time used to actually be 5 acres so it was probably
the first house in the entire area um now what we have is a series of photographs on the Right in the middle is the structure as you can see with the open front and you'll see all the gravel in the front. The the picture on the upper right hand corner is actually behind that structure. You'll see that there's a nice white fence back there
and there's a lot of landscaping. >> And then the third photo in the lower right hand corner is a photo of the driveway and I'm actually looking towards the street in that photo. Um so you can see the length of the driveway which is also pretty fairly evident as
well in the aerial photograph. Um, but I think that this gives a really good uh perspective of the property itself. And you can particularly see in three-dimensional aerial about how much foliage is located around this property.
Um, not only on this property, but on the budding neighbor's property. Um, and if you've been to the site, you you can definitely see that you're you can't really see onto this property or onto anybody else's. Um so uh with that said
um that's a description of the particular piece of property which happens to be almost 52,000 square ft. So it's pretty large piece of property. Um obviously you have the single family structure theory structure in the back. Um and we're here seeking use variance
for the bridal salon that has been described by the applicant tonight. uh in terms of a D1 use variant, we have to prove that the site is particularly suitable for the use. What does that mean? It means that we actually need to show it's particularly suitable, but we
also have to note distinguish it from other properties in the immediate area. Well, I would venture to say that this is absolutely different than any of the other properties in the immediate area. Number one, it has very odd shape. I don't know why it was subdivided that
way, but it was. Number two, we have an existing accessory structure that has been utilized in the past for a more commercial type use. Um we have advocated that we do think that our use
is less impactful than the previous use that according to the resolution that was from 1998 which affirmed the use and gave the use variance was operating since 1964 um and there might be some board members that had a recollection of this type of
use being on the property for a really long time. um when we talk about when we talk about the fact that is a site particularly suitable um because we have this accessory structure um and we
do meet so many of the tenants of what a home occupation is and I'm going to put on my my glasses so I can read um and our attorney was speaking about this before in terms of what um
there's there's different. Uh oh, here we go. Right page. Thank you. All right. So, um our attorney talked about um what how home occupations were defined in your ordinance. Uh and there's a series of qualifications. Uh
one, is it customarily carried on in a dwelling unit or in a building or structure accessory to a dwelling unit? Yes. In the accessory structure, is it carried on by a member of the family residing in the dwelling unit? Yes. the applicant who just spoke is clearly incidental and secondary to the use of
the dwelling for regulation purposes. Well, absolutely. I think what uh wasn't specifically mentioned um throughout our applicant's testimony is that the hours of operation are Wednesday to Friday 10 to 6 and Saturday from 9:00 to 5:00. So, it's only open 4 days a week. And just
as well when she also talked about the fact that a lot of bridal parties will probably be offsite, the the services will happen offsite which means that there may not be anybody at the site on Friday or Saturday if there is a bridal party because they might be offsite. So
when we talk about it being incidental, it's absolutely incidental to the primary residence itself. Uh then it also goes on to say uh that the occupation of discussion shall be carried on fully within the principal building or within building or other
other structure accessory there too within the accessory structure. Not more than one person outside the family shall be employed in the home home occupation. That was also testified to earlier. Uh there shall be no exterior display, no exterior sign except as permitted in
another section and no exterior storage of materials and no other exterior invocation of the home occupation or variations for the residential character of the principal building. Um as was stated during our applicant's testimony, all she wants to do is enclose this building. So there's no sign or there
you're not going to know that it's there from the road. You can see that there's such a long driveway to the back. uh there's really no visual impacts to the street. Um and then to go on to that talking about impact, the next part of that is no offensive noise, vibration,
smoke, dust, odors, heat, or glare shall be produced. Um I would venture to say that a bridal salon is not going to do any of those things. And I know that we talked about lighting, but I also like to note that when I talked about the hours of operation before,
probably you need lighting maybe from 4:30 to 6:00 p.m. during the winter, but these are daytime operating hours. So, I think what's going to be in the back is going to be security lighting, and that's just going to be security lighting like you would have probably on any other property. You're not going to
there's there's no real uh use of the property in the evening. So I I don't think that that would be a concern. Obviously, the applicant is going going to provide any type of security lighting that she is permitted as a residential property. So I I don't think there's going to be any impact with regard to
the fact that this is becoming a commercial use even though technically it is already. Uh so um we did talk about uh through our testimony about what we how we think this is different than a beauty parlor which is not favored in your ordinance. Um, and now
we know that one of your um, board members thinks that she's more like an artist, which could be potentially close to what we can consider this makeup artist and hairstylist. Um, so anyway, to go along with uh, you
know, the negative criteria for the granting of I'm sorry, actually I should talk about the purpose of municipal land use law. Uh the first would be uh purpose C um which is to provide adequate light, air, and open space. Um I we're not changing anything on the property. We're just enclosing a
building. So there will still be adequate light, air, and open space. We're not changing any of the prior guardian conditions that were approved in the 1998 approval. Uh also to promote a desirable visual environment, uh we are enclosing the
building. We're creating a nice facade. Um and eventually there will also be additional landscaping that will be added to the property. As I understand the applicant when I was there at the site already took out some dead trees and does plan on providing some nice landscaping to provide sort of that
backdrop uh when you know the clients come to the site and then um in terms of the negative criteria u I don't believe there's any substantial detriment to the public good by the granting of these varants for the bridal salon. as um that the public is
probably accustomed to a more intensive use on the property and this is absolutely less intensive. Um it's you know there's no outdoor storage, no outward operations on the site. It's a daytime use only. It's only operating four days a week if that if the bridal
parties are actually there on Friday and Saturday. Um, we do believe that there's more than enough parking on site uh based on the very specific use of a bridal salon in terms of the fact that most people do in groups. Um, and or there's only going to be one client on
site at a time because there's only one person who can actually do their hair and makeup. I also believe there's no substantial impairment to the intent purpose of your zone and zoning ordinance. I do not feel that we would fall under the category of parall in terms of your zoning
ordinance. Um so in terms of your master plan um I also looked at your examination uh from 2016 um it did mention a reference to uh basically the state's requirements
regarding homebased businesses um and supporting those homebased businesses with reasonable controls. Um, so I don't know that you need to impose any reasonable controls since we are literally just enclosing a building and we aren't proposing any uh hightraic
type use, but obviously the applicant is open to any suggestions by the board um in terms of that. Um, so with that said, um, I do believe that we meet the particular suitability for the granting of V1 use varants. I believe that we
meet the positive criteria promoting the purposes of municipal land use law and I do not believe that there's any substantial impact to the zone plan zoning ordinance or the public good by the granting of the use variance for the bridal salon on this particular property.
>> Thank you. No questions. Um >> no questions chairman. Uh, no questions. >> No questions. >> I do have a question and it could be answered by you or it could be answered by my professionals and I'm sorry if I keep getting hung up on this. If it's a
commercial business on a on homebased commercial business, are we required to comply with ADA, American with Disabilities Act. >> Can I answer that? >> Sure. >> I'm going to be required regardless because I'm governed by the state board of cosmetology and I have to provide an
ADA exam for my clients. Okay. Then that means an ADA entrance and you know everything associated with it. >> I'm sure that's conditioned. >> Not a problem. >> I think it's a gray area. >> Uh and I don't know what that means in terms of the site plan in terms of ADA
compliance. >> I've never needed one for the three prior salon renovations I've done in all different towns that previously I never have. I just need to make sure that >> Yeah. And I I don't know the answer to that. the other other home occupations in town just create themselves because
they meet the ordinance and they don't have to do any renovations necessarily. >> Well, we'll make that a condition compliance with any ADA requirements governing a salon or similar type. >> I think that would cover it. Just be careful with your license whether or not you need an accessible route into the
building. Just check on that. >> That's part of the site plan question I had. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. >> No questions. Um, no questions. But you you had a concern about people parking by the
driveway in visibility. I mean, we are allowed to park on the street during the spring and summer months. So, I don't think that could be changed, but if you wanted to have a yellow line, who would they have to go and ask for that?
>> County Road County Road. >> Oh, forget it. You'll never get it. I I automatically put in approval of other agencies having jurisdiction including the county. >> Okay. I have no other question.
>> And if you look at this even goes back and way out here. >> We have to open the public for questions. >> Make a motion. You can see questions. You can see fine. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Anybody from the public have any
questions or comments for the planner? Gregory. >> Seeing none. >> Motion to close. >> I do that really well. >> Exactly. One of the things I actually do really well. >> All in favor? >> I >> Okay, finally. Now, we have to open the meeting to the public, but do you have any closing comments first before we do
that? >> You know what I think I'm going to do for the first time? I think this went so well that >> I think you should defer in the interest of time. >> I will defer in the interest of time. That's right. Normally, I would have a lot to say, but it's all been said and I will sit down. All right. We have to
open the meeting one more time to the public for any questions or comments regarding the application. >> Motion second. >> Second. >> All in favor? I. >> Anybody from the public have any questions or comments to the applicant? >> Not you, Bill. >> Seeing none. >> Motion to close.
>> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Anybody have a motion to make before we do that? >> Seven members. Again, >> I was going to say it's a D1 application, so it's only seven members. It's the same seven presumably. >> Guess so. And there are a lot of conditions that we talked about.
>> I have. >> So let's just keep in mind that we remember all those out those conditions. >> Motion would be to approve >> all subject to all the conditions as >> Okay. And anybody want to second? >> Second.
>> All right. Roll call. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Congratulations. Welcome to Old Japan.
>> You want to have a good evening? >> All right. See you in a year or two or three. >> Maybe. >> We never applications in. >> Is there any Well, we got to actually open the meeting one more time to the public. >> I'll make it to the public. Motion. >> Second. >> All in favor? I.
>> Anybody in the public have any questions or comments of the board? Seeing none, >> motion close. Second. >> All in favor? I >> to one question. >> Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. >> And you can hold this till just table.
You can table this till next month, but where are we with the master plan? Um, >> yeah, it's a good question. >> Um, I did get some commentary from John, but Ed, do you want to provide some input? >> Sorry if I don't have an answer to that. Um, >> John did inform me of it. John did
promise us uh that he will have some information at the next meeting. Um he we're actually running out of time obviously and he does have some other news he wants to share with us um at the next meeting. So >> because we do want to review page 13.
>> Yes. >> Tonight and make sure that's the wording we want going forward. >> So you have to be here next week. >> Yes. >> I can send that message back to John. >> Okay. Thank you. >> All right. Motion to adjurnn. I reset it. You have to second it. >> Second. >> All in favor? I
>> Good job, everybody. >> Good night, everybody. Part: 2
I get the thing ready to go. >> In comp Oh, >> in compliance with the open public meetings law, notification of this meeting has been sent to our official newspapers and other publications circulated in the burrow of Ultan and
notice has been posted on the Bolton board at Burough Hall. Please note all meetings are videotaped and posted on the website. Fire exit. Fire exits are located at the main entrance to the council chambers and in the rear of the council chambers. Roll call, please.
>> Salute. We have first. Yeah. Okay. It's been so long. I I forgot what we do. >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and
justice for all. Thank you. You guys got to watch my back. >> Mr. Nagio >> here. >> Mr. Pe >> here. >> Mr. Lee >> here. >> Mr. Jones >> here. >> Councilman Marte. >> Councilman Voice
>> here. >> Mud >> here. >> Mr. Salava >> here. >> Mr. Bedin >> here. >> Mr. Aarian. Mr. Kramer >> here. >> Mr. Prazoi. >> All righty. Can somebody make a motion to open the meeting to the public for a
>> public? >> Any any things to discuss that's not on the agenda? >> Motion. >> Second. Anybody second that? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> I. >> Does anybody in the audience have any questions for the board unrelated to anything on the agenda tonight?
>> Seeing none. >> Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> All right. Environmental commission report. Uh we will be meeting on the 21st of October. Um we plan on doing the walk to school uh
event that is October 16th uh next week or Yeah, next week. And um yeah, we'll be wrapping up things um at our meeting in November, but um all good on the environmental side. >> Good. I know we've had some uh special
guest speakers at the mayor and council meetings regarding deer management. Um, so it's good that that conversation's take. I said to bring in the mountain lines. I'm all for that. >> That is all. >> Appreciate that. Council liaison report
brief tonight. Thank you. Um, we do have the biggest thing in town is that we now have a new council woman. Donna Costello was sworn in uh in I think today maybe. >> Congratulations by our illustrious mayor. Thank you. Um, we're negotiating
the police contract, which the last one took a bit of time. We're about two or three months in now, which still the beginning stages, but it's it's going well. >> Okay. >> Um, we heard at the last council meeting
a uh an idea to cut to close down the country's choir part of town briefly for Halloween for a few hours, like literally all the streets. >> Would that be the first time we've done that? >> I believe so. Um there's a lot of debate on whether that's a good idea, a bad idea, whether it's I mean there's a lot
to consider. Um uh basically it creates an event. That's what we're afraid of. Already we're getting a lot of traffic from out of town, you know, patronizing, you know, Halloween in the country square area. So it could just magnify it. >> Yeah. But it also makes it safer. So
we're we're decision. >> Um it's an important decision. People thousands of dollars of candy every year. Also, >> how that can >> I suggested better candy in the outskirts of town? Possibly. >> We try. We do our part. Nobody comes to
our street. >> Never. >> So, we're working on that. As Dave said, we've we've heard about the deer hunt in town. We've heard about the deer, you know, rescuing the deer in town and and using non-lethal, nonconlict solutions.
fact that flyers are still up here. Um, and birth control for deer is another contemplated solution. And, uh, I guess maybe you or our planner can speak to the affordable housing where where that sits now, but it's my understanding we may have to
come up with some new solutions because our our proposal wasn't quite fully accepted. Um, yeah, you're not alone. Virtually every town has have had an objection from Fair Share Housing Senate. >> That's correct. >> These folks do not like like towns with
single family homes. So they follow objections. That's what it comes down to. >> Yeah. There was an incredible amount of push back I heard. And um are there 300? >> Over 400. >> Over 400. Yes. >> It's pathetic. >> And it goes to a retired judge of which there are seven.
>> Seven. It might even be actually >> program. >> It's eight now. They asked for many Tuscos to come back. >> Wow. That's a good selection. He's he knows what he's doing. >> Yeah. So So we're contemplating having a special meeting of the affordable housing group within that we had previously that small committee so we
can come up with some solutions. >> Okay. I'll let you know. >> That's about all I have. >> Quite a bit. Very good. You're welcome. >> Everybody should have a construction official report that was in the package that was sent out. Financial secretary report. Oh, wait a minute. I skipped the burl engineer. Sorry about that.
>> No report, Mr. >> I knew. I knew, Tom. I sensed it. >> I had one, but you heard my family. >> There you go. All right. Financial Secretary report. >> So, apparently we've had a few busy months. Um, out of budget, we had a total of $5,39726
and out of escrow, we got $7,831. 0 for a grand total of 13,228. >> Wow. Mhm. >> Anybody have anything they want to say about >> she said it's a business. >> You need somebody make a motion.
>> Motion. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> approved. All right. Meeting minutes. >> Gave you >> the March 12th. >> Yeah. >> Okay.
Anybody have any comments about the meeting minutes? >> Seeing none motion. Make a motion to accept as a minute. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Anybody have any new business?
Is there any old business? Are there any communications? Awesome. We're just flying through it today. All right. We do have one resolution. Um 36 Birchwood. Mr. raise a rear yard setback variance that the
board grant in the July meeting. We haven't met since July. So, >> okay. Everybody got an opportunity to review and does anybody have any comments? And if not, can somebody make a motion? >> Motion to approve. >> Second. >> Roll call. >> Mr. Matthew.
>> Yes, >> Mr. Ke. >> I don't believe I'm eligible. >> Mr. Alexi, >> yes. >> Mr. John. >> Yes. >> Councilman Boyce.
>> Yes. >> Miss Ludas. >> Yes. >> Mr. Scarfava. >> It's been so long ago. I don't think I was here for them. >> Mr. Dean. >> Yes. >> Mr. Aarian.
>> Yes. >> Mr. Kramer. >> Yes. >> Congratulations out there, whoever they are. All right. Next, we have um an unusual number, might be a record for us, four applications.
We are going to go a little bit out of order on what's on the agenda. If anybody is referring to the agenda, we're going to start with 40 bush. Um and and our attorney, Mr. Regan, has some comments about that.
>> Are the first of all, if I ask Jen, the notice at least for now in order? >> Yes. >> Okay. Are the is the applicant present? Uh 40 Bush Road. >> Yes. >> Come up forward to the table.
>> Yes. >> Wow. >> Yes. >> Could we have your name please? >> Betty an Sodi. >> Okay. And I'm going to swear you in and simultaneously swear our planner and engineering. Gentlemen and Mr. Dodie.
Would you swear or affirm that the testimonial given this pristine shall be true self? You got it. >> Yes, I do. I do. Okay. >> I do. >> Um why the chairman called this application uh uh before the uh other applications on the agenda is I
had some questions about whether a D3 variance is required which is called a an accessory apartment for seniors is a conditional use and it's subject to certain conditions in the zoning ordinance. It's all spelled out in
section 255-56. There are a number of requirements uh requirements A through L that have to be met. If they're not met, it triggers what's called a D3 conditional use
fairance. Okay. In reviewing the plans, one of the requirements is that the accessory dwelling must have a minimum floor area of 100 square ft. obviously satisfy that, but shall not be greater than 25% of the
total floor area of the building. When I look at the plans that were submitted with the application, and I'm not saying they're accurate, I'm just saying what they say, >> okay? >> They say that the total uh square footage of the building is 3,636.
The garage area or the garage level, which is the area that we would be converted to the accessory dwelling unit, is that correct? Yes, >> that's 1119. >> Okay, >> no matter how you calculate it, that's more than 25% of the total floor area.
>> So that would trigger in my opinion the D the D3 variance. And I'll def I'll deferred that our planner and engineer because they're a lot better on math than I am. >> Yeah. The reason for that is that as as the attorney had mentioned, this is a conditional use. When you deviate from a
conditional use requirement, it goes to a higher level of review. the higher level review is a Dvariance. Uh it's considered it's called a use variance, but it's really related to the conditional use that's there. And if you're not meeting some of the conditions or deviating from them, you
need to seek that relief from the board. And that's a special type of relief. The other the other concern I have, and that's paragraph F of that section, 255-56F is 255-56. An accessory dwelling unit may not be
situated contained within a cell or a garage. Arguably, if you're converting the uh the garage to the accessory unit, you're including the dwelling unit within the garage. I guess you could argue argue against that uh uh idea. But
I think a r a rational reading is that would require a D3 variance too. >> It still needs relief from that standard. >> Okay. So, and and then I I looked at the notice. It didn't make any first of all, the applicant the application did not
seek a D3 varance. It simply sought approval of a conditional use. So, I think you need to go back and amend the application to seek the D3 variance release. >> I mean, we deferred to the professionals
of our architect to to put that through. We got >> Is your architect here? He's not here today, but >> yeah, you >> he got all the the proper permits for it. So, >> what permits did you receive >> to do construction on the house?
>> Okay. >> So, they pulled permits at their final inspection. They re the electrical inspector that was filling in realized that there was a dead bolt between the home and the garage and there was a
kitchen which the plan didn't call for a kitchen. >> The the kitchen was going to be in the accessory unit. >> Correct. >> That's the problem. I mean, this application is a little more complicated. You may want to speak to
I'm not telling you what to do, but you may want to talk to a not only your architect, but an experienced land user. There are a number of requirements that have to be met. >> Going right over there, by the way, >> Sure. I >> We have your name, please.
>> I'm going to Mr. Sodium will swear you when you raise your right hand. You swear or affirm that the testimony you give this person shove it to your >> Okay. You want to talk? Go ahead. The 1100 does sound like garages. They're not. The garage is 600 square f feet.
You said something about which >> I'm just saying what the architect plan which >> 600 ft. >> I'm not making it up. It says right on here. >> One of the other challenges was that the application was pretty incomplete. There wasn't a lot of information. It was very hard to to review the application unless
unless information is missing from what I had. >> But the but the we got permits to do it though. They were approved >> and >> yeah I'm talking about the application that came before us so there wasn't enough information but what we saw >> sign not the original one that we gave us the permit
>> did you have this is Mr. Coons is your architect he prepared his plan and he's showing that the total floor area of the building as proposed would be 3636 with the garage level being 1119. You
could take 1119 over 36 36 >> I think they might just be using a portion of the garage that's a new wall in between like right now it's two garage doors. >> It looks like the accessory dwelling unit is basically one of the garage doors
>> and then the family room I don't know if that's shared or what. So it's a little confusing. No, the family room was on this side, but the two garages, the total, one is 13. One garage was 13 by 27, including the bathroom. There was an existing bathroom
and one garage was 11 12 by 27. One is 11 by 27, one is 11 uh 13 by 27. And then one of them there was a bathroom right there, missing bathroom. So, I'll give you 11. >> It's not 11. So, does the family room go
with the accessory unit or with the main house? >> No. >> Is the main house? >> Exact. >> So, I think they would meet the area requirement, but they meet the area. >> There's some other >> Mhm. >> concerns obviously. >> Yeah. You >> You probably should have your architect
here to answer these questions. >> That's why you're paying him >> paying him good money. He should be here answering these questions, >> right? And we we expect the professional to do the right thing cuz he would have bought the door. Was not mistaken. I didn't want to be cheap about it. I didn't want to remove the door. Was an existing door from the house.
>> Nothing wrong with that. >> And it's like I feel so silly from pointing that out. >> Don't look at it that way. >> These are complicated issues. Okay. >> And Mr. Chairman, another issue I think they should address if they're going to come back is the way I read the accessory dwelling
ordinance. You need to add a parking space for the accessory dwelling unit. In this case, we're we're losing >> the garage parking and we're not adding. >> So, we're at a deficit. >> So, that'd be plus one. >> I think they need to add what they're
losing plus one. >> Plus one. Yeah. >> Well, I'm confused because our driveway can fit six cars. >> We have six. Yeah, we can put six cars. >> The driveway is huge. >> He has to demonstrate that then on the It might be very easy to do. We may might be able to take the site plan. Again, the package is very incomplete.
>> You shouldn't be here alone. You should have professional. >> You should have professional support. >> Um, and the information provided was I'm not going to say the bare minimum was less than the bare minimum. >> Yeah. And if you need a D3 variance, you have to provide evidence that justifies that relief.
>> You can't just come in and say, you know, we want to do what we want to do. as a proud owner of an accessory dwelling unit >> where my my mother-in-law lives. Okay. I can say to you, we would love to see you get this passed, but you just don't have enough information for us to do this. >> So, what would we need to have?
>> Exactly. >> All right. So, well, first of all, your your architect should come the next time. >> Okay. >> You may want to speak to a land use attorney. Um, but first find out if in fact it is >> what's the square footage of the accessory unit, >> right?
>> The exact square footage. divide that by and I'm not saying the the architect's numbers are right. He's saying it's 3636 total the total floor area of the house. >> He needs to verify the square footages. >> If it's the way it's written it doesn't look right.
>> If it's over 25% that triggers a D what's called a D3 variance called the conditional use. Make sure it's less. >> Mr. Chairman, I'm if the architect wants to call me, I'm happy to go through the conditions with them, >> get Tom's >> and explain what the what the concerns are.
>> Okay. >> And then obviously there's the issue about being located in a garage. That might just be an interpretation because a garage could be converted into living space, >> but >> it's probably not as serious as the other. >> And then the parking space might be as simple as just some somebody showing the
parking on your on your plan. So, you might be 75% of the way there, but we just don't have enough to be able to do it. >> Yeah. But bring your professionals with you next time. >> Should we bring >> Yeah. >> One more question. If >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> On the garage issue, they've already got
permits to change the garage into living space. So, based on that, I think they could take the position that they're no longer putting the accessory dwelling unit in a garage. >> Right. So >> that's why I'm just confused because we've applied and got approved for
permits to do all of that. So I'm just kind of curious sounds like it's kind of a backward doing things for the garage to be converted for all of >> residential for res but not for an accessory. >> That's that's the thing. >> I the kitchen there
were issued they were issued under their instruction that is living space. >> Yes. not converted into an accessory dwelling. >> The kitchen's what triggers it to become an accessory dwelling unit. It makes it like another apartment. >> Okay, >> which I get it. I completely understand that, right?
>> Um but but that changes everything. And that now kicks in this whole requirement for an ADU. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Your >> It's not the lock, by the way. It's not the lock that triggered it. It's the kitchen that triggered this. >> Okay. Just so you know,
>> the architect and if you retain a land use need to look at it's 255-56 of the of the code. >> Mr. Chairman, >> I actually have a copy of our memo which outlines the requirement if you'd like to provide that. That's helpful. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Perfect.
>> So, you got the planners comments. You're going to your architect should reach out to Mr. Scrabble, our engineer at the far end. >> Okay. Um and um you should be able to have enough information to come back to us in a month and >> Oh, perfect.
>> What's the next meeting? >> Second. >> What's the What's the next meeting? November 12th >> I think November 12th. >> November 12th. >> November 12th. >> All right. Good luck. >> Good luck. >> All righty. Next up, now we're going in
in the order of the um the agenda. We had four applications. Now we have three applications. And we are 20 minutes into the meeting, which isn't too bad. We're going to try to average an hour or less for each one. We could
do that. Dean, I heard you have like 12 or 13 um professionals. >> I was talking to less than half of those. >> I love that. That's perfect because we all want to get home and see the the end of the baseball game. >> This is this is spring court.
>> So, we're going to do um eight spring court first. You do that. I'm just going to bring this to I'm going to forget and take it home one more time. >> J notices are in order on this. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Would you raise your right hand? Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you were given is put in shuff? >> I do. >> And for the record, state your full name and spell your last name, please. Sergio Malona Jr. uh M I L O N A person S T E R I S just in case. Thank
you. >> And just for the record, I'm going to again swear in our our professionals. He swear affirmed that the testimony will give himself. We'll have to record that the applicants been sworn and the board planner and the board.
I can't cover that here. Mr. Molina, I assume you want the board to consider um your site plan portico edition most recently revised to uh
71025. Is that it? >> Uh yes, that yes, that is correct. And since you want to regret that, why don't we mark that as A1? >> That's fine. >> Do you have any prof you you have any professionals with you or you by yourself?
>> I'm by myself. I >> I do have I do have my neighbors who would be arguably the most impacted by this. >> The meeting will be open. They can give >> we'll give them an opportunity to come up and speak either on behalf or against. So >> thank you.
>> Okay. So we're going to mark as A1 the site plan. the planet house site plan portico edition with a revision date of 7102.5. Are there any other documents or exhibits you want marked? >> Uh just the documents that came in the
original package. Um those show the elevations of of the design uh of the support structures. Um uh essentially if if I may um it's an extension of the and Tom you can correct me if but uh from an engineering
perspective it's an extension of the gable of the roof um and then at the end of the extension it's supported by two support columns essentially um approximately 20 ft x 23 ft. Uh dimensions
>> that's the dimension of the portico >> approximately >> 23 >> 20 20 20 x 23 1/2 ft maybe or 20 it's 23.3 ft >> approximately >> approximately >> okay and it appears that the sole variance you require is 48 we are
setback variance of 35.7 ft. >> Yes sir. While [Applause] we're looking up things, I have to apologize. >> Sure.
>> Back in 1974, I broke one of your fence posts. Mike, I think you disqualified from hearing his application. I got disqualified um the statute of limitations. >> Yeah, it appears
owned the house and and owned your house. >> Well, I broke the fence bolts. Probably still broken. >> I got attacked by a dog, believe it or not. What kind of dog? >> German Shepherd. >> You're forgiven. >> I think he's still dealing with it. >> I know. Just send them the building. I
think I think that it's it was it a a post and rail style fence back back there? >> Yeah, split rail fence. >> Yeah. So, it's the same fence. >> Yeah, it's probably still wrong. >> I'll come by and fix it. >> Anyway, it appears that the variance you're seeking is a rear yard setback as
a result of a port of 35.7 ft, which is sir less than the 40 foot requirement. Is that correct? >> Yes, sir. >> Any other variances? >> No, sir. And you're also building a patio. Is that right? >> The patio's built.
>> It's already there. >> It's already there. Uh that and that was already there was no variance that was that was required for that. Um the storm water uh or or or runoff if you will uh is already addressed uh with the
existing hardscape that that's in place. It's an underground system uh with two seepage tanks. Uh I think they're 1,200 gallons a piece. Uh I could get the specifics on that. I think actually we I mean the the plans were submitted um
over a year ago with respect to the hardscape. So as far as runoff management that's all been addressed >> and you had to amend to show the portico because the original plant did have >> That's correct. That's correct. And and if I may um just to
essentially describe why uh I'm asking for this variance and and the the hardship uh with respect to building within the uh existing requirements. Um the the house so the lot is a diamond shaped it's slightly narrow. It's not a
perfect square. the house is situated slightly to the left if you're looking, you know, directly over uh one of the plans. Um the house is situated uh slightly left and then also slightly uh it's not
centered. Let's put it that way. So for uh for me to build this this portico uh on the left side would require if it's going to be an extension of the existing gate would require that that variance. If I chose to do it on the other side um
I'm dealing with an existing condition which is the pool that was there when we purchased the house in 2019. Um, I actually did go through the exercise of getting price quotes to uh to fill in the pool and move it. It was cost
prohibitive. Uh, and then I also had my uh my builder looked at and he said there's no way this would ever be approved. Uh, actually doing a shortened version of that and the setback requirements from the pool uh just would
not make it possible. I mean, it's a safety hazard for one. Um, and I think it's a 10-ft minimum setback for any extension of the house. Uh, you'd have to have a support column there, and it would just aesthetically look bizarre because you'd have this cantalvered
thing jettisoning out from the house on that side. Uh, we we'd be fine with the minimum setback requirement uh on on that side of the uh of the boundary line of of the property lines. But uh with respect to the um the setback with the
pool, it would just make it impossible. >> And then obviously just the filling in the pool and moving it was was just not a a viable option just from a cost perspective. >> Well, your position is that you're you're limited because of existing site conditions, not only the configuration,
shape of the property, but the location of the pool and actually the location of the existing structure. >> That That's correct, sir. Yes. So, okay. So, um everybody the board's going to get an opportunity to ask you questions at some point, but um it's always helpful to bring a professional. You
heard that the last applicant. Um they they they can guide you in terms of what are the things to talk to us about. Um but but one question before we get to the whole board is so why not make the um covered portal smaller so that it was so that it complied,
>> right? Um I'm glad you asked that. So I in my write up I actually uh describe how much smaller just just based on the lot line less than half the size. Um and so what we're trying to accomplish with the portico is um you know the the
backyard like a lot of people's backyard it gets hot in the summer. Uh my parents are older. I want to have a place for them to sit in the shade. And what we also would like to do is um build like a small outdoor kitchen space um eventually um so that everybody can sort
of gather around be by where we're cooking um potentially have an outdoor entertainment space. I don't know if that means a bar or you know everybody's invited uh or or an outdoor television or or things like that. We want to have
a you know a place where where we can sort of gather but be in the shade. Um uh and uh you know we we thought about potentially doing uh different mixes with umbrellas which wouldn't look right. Um and uh we also explored an
accessory structure making it separate from the house. Aesthetically it just doesn't look right. Um and you're also now dealing with dead space because it's uncovered. Um, so it's not maximizing the utility of uh of what the portico is
supposed to be as far as the envision envision for it. >> You know the capacity of the separate they're there now. They've been already installed. >> They're there. Yes. >> Okay. You know the capacity of each one of the two of them? >> Uh I believe it's 1,200 gallons per. Uh I can I can confirm that with uh it
actually might you know it might be in >> and that does not include the stone. So the storage is actually significantly more than that. >> I'm sorry. >> That does the 1250 does not include the stone voids. So the capacity is significantly more than
>> 3,000 each. >> When all this says proposed, explain that to us. It says proposed seage pets on these drawings. >> Yeah. >> No, that's an old That's I'm sorry. That's an old drawing. The new drawing had the same issue. Yeah, that that's
>> so basically you just want to build a portico at this point in time. No kitchen, no entertainment center, just a shade roof that's that sets over the um the line. And the reason why it sets
over the the line is because of the structure of the columns would be kind of dangerous for the pool, right? So that's it. Just you just want to build a roof with columns. No pool, no p um no kitchen, no nothing. Just just at this point in time, the roof
>> at this point in time, a roof with columns on the left side because if I did it on the right side, it would be impossible because of where the pool's positioned. >> All right. I we got to go to the motions >> and just
and to do it and to do it in that center portion. If you look at the house, it's shaped like an H. to do it in the center portion. The gables run left to right. It's you would there's just no way of doing. >> And then I took a question I guess for
our um professionals. The space counts as floor area. >> It's covered. >> Right. >> Right. I was a little confused in terms of the square footage. What's the actual foot square footage amount? >> Yeah. If you look at the F
>> Yeah. standards. You'll see in the upper leftand corner they did a calculation of that next to the vicinity map. Uh in that they had three three essentially I saw that they included the existing stoop as well as the proposed portico and even with that they were under the
total F requirement. >> Okay. >> So I think there's even a buffer in that. I don't think you needed to include the stoop but that's that's your engineer looking to calculate that. But okay thank you. All right. But what we're going to do is we're going to open it up to the board to ask any questions. We'll start down at the far end with our
uh engineer Tom. Sure. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just as the applicant said, the storm water management was addressed when the pool improvements were done, the patio improvements were done. So, all of the area that the portico would cover was
included from a stormwater management standpoint. >> Okay. uh the seage pits are shown kind of on the I guess you call that the southeast corner of the property and then there's an overflow that goes out the front in the event of a larger storm. So from a stormwater management standpoint I think they're they're well taken care of. So then it really comes
down to um which happened prior to last meeting what is the F issue and turns out that's not an issue. So um as far as I'm concerned there's there's there's no engineering issues left. Um, you might want to discuss the existing
hedge row that's there and how this encroachment into the setback would really not be visible to your neighbor and the fact that the structure is going to be open on all sides. Um, and
typically the board or at times the board in the past has taken the position that um, a structure such as this could not be closed in. So that might be a condition you would consider and you might want to run that by the applicant to make sure they can. Yes, we're okay with that.
>> I was thinking maybe you would you'd agree to that. >> It will never be enclosed. That we we do agree to that. >> That would be that if this gets if this gets passed that will be a condition. >> That's all I have. >> Thank you, Tom. Ed. Right. >> Yes. Thank you. Ed Snikas with Burgess Associates. Um with regard to what Mr.
scrabble's covered as well as the chairman's asked me regarding the building coverage. I think it's covered most of the things that we had have identified. The other thing from a planning standpoint I would offer um in reviewing this application uh is the obviously it's there's somewhat of a unique condition with regard to the lot
as well as the building configuration. Plus, as Mr. Scrabble pointed out is that it is an open air uh feature. So therefore, the open air has a little bit less effect. And you're trying to line up this with the alignment of the building as well. Correct. >> Correct. >> So therefore, you're architecturally
they're looking to marry it with the architecture of the building. So I think that goes further into some of the proofs. >> Yeah. Helps with the C1. >> Exactly. >> And I think this the storm water helps with the C2. >> Anything else? >> That's all I have. Thank you. >> Um no questions. I already asked my
questions. >> Mr. was I just built something similar to this but I didn't require variance. I was fortunate but the dimensions of mine are 24 ft wide which I see is what you have by 18 ft and those two extra feet would be helpful. I understand why
you're going for 20 more than two feet. >> It would be really helpful. >> Um so I'm not fundamentally opposed to this whatsoever. I was wondering if a this in some way would affect your neighbor behind you. I imagine it's
pretty far, but maybe if it did and they're staring at a white column now instead of woods, maybe you could plant something in front of it. Seems like a pretty easy ask. >> Certainly. Um I have amazing neighbors. Um they've been kind enough to >> They're here
>> uh to they they are here in attendance. Um and uh there there is already a um uh we already have a uh a a nor a spruce buffer or tree buffer. Okay. >> Uh that's present. Um and while this
this is an extension of the roof line and I understand that. Um the tree buffer already acts as uh I guess an obstruction >> and you're not you're not changing that. You're keeping those spruce in place. >> Oh, they're they're not going in or anything. They're just growing.
>> Great. >> Okay, I have no more questions here. >> Well, Tom, address my concerns regarding storm water. It sounds like we got u agreeable neighbors for the slight variation that we might be approving tonight. So, I have no further
questions. Bob, >> no questions. >> I'm good. No questions. >> No questions from either. >> No question. No question. >> That's it. All right. We do have to open the meeting up to the public for anybody. Uh, anyone make a
>> make a motion to open the meeting to public. >> Perfect. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> All right. Is there anybody from the public who has any questions regarding the application >> or comments? >> Or comments.
>> Sir, would you raise your right hand, please? You swear or affirm that the testimony given is pristine. Shelby, please help your guide. >> I do. >> If you give it your full name and spell your last name, please. Richard Tell me T O N I O L O. >> Thank you. >> And most importantly, I'd like to address Mr. Allessie's remarks.
Periodically, my wife and I still get mail addressed from Mr. Rogo from his undergraduate university. I presume they're looking for money. >> Wow. >> Let's give it to my story about their house, too. >> Putting the beside it with the rocket
>> now. You know, >> just last week. I'm I'm not used to sitting while speaking. Um Mr. Regan can attest to that. Um our our yards uh our brewery yards abut
each other and there uh is sufficient evergreen landscaping on the property line of uh Steve's property to buffer any view of the landscape of behind his
evergreens and also hiding the the canopy that he proposes to construct with this project. There is absolutely no effect on my property visually or any other way. I have no objection if the board chooses to approve this
application. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Is there a gate in the fence so you can use the pool? It's >> low enough I can hop. >> Well, I'll go by the broken part. >> Good to hear. Anybody else from the public have any other comments or questions?
>> Seeing none, motion to close. >> Second. All in favor? >> I I >> All right. Assuming that there's nothing else to ask, there's no other professionals. There's no professionals. Um, >> attorney. >> All right. There you go. >> You were ahead of the game before you.
>> Yeah. >> Now it changes everything. Now we're going to answer tougher questions. >> I should have kept my mouth. >> What do you think about that D3? No. >> So, does anybody have a motion they want to make? >> Motion to accept with to approve. >> Well, yeah. all the stipulations of the
board and the open air and everything else that goes with it. >> We have it. >> Anybody want to second that? >> Second. >> Let's do a roll call. >> Mr. Majio, >> yes. >> Mr. Ke, >> yes. >> Mr. Ley, >> yes. >> Yes. >> C boy, >> yes.
>> Mr. Ludith, >> yes. >> Mr. Scalasava, >> yes. >> Wow. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Thank you. Oh, we've already guessed cuz he's got the open in. There you go.
[Music] >> Three minute break. Unless you want me to collect money from everybody. >> We can get We already told people to bring that. So,
>> yeah. So, >> all right. We're doing the third application which is for hidden court. >> Um Dean, would you like to get started? >> Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. Dean Stamos of the law firm
of Ferraro and Stamos hearing on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. Ala Pieti. They're the owner. >> Before you go any further, agenda notices are in order. Yeah. >> And there's a D4 variance implicated which means that Councilman Boyce cannot participate.
>> Class three. >> And I'm a neighbor. >> Oh, that's too >> Will you be requiring my service after this? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Keep an eye on the game first. >> I will. I'll uh hand signals from the
back line. There we go. >> All right. Again. Okay. So, thank you. So, they're the owners of uh For Hidden Court. It's block 701, lot 1.03. You all know it's in the RA40 zone,
which requires a lot size of 40,000 square ft. This property is oversized. Uh it's 54,849 square ft. uh they are currently have they're at that limit with the size of their home and other uh
structures they may have at the 0.14 uh for F it's actually we we had 0.15 but I think there was just some calculation it's a little above that so it's closer to 1.6 Yeah, we we just discussed that with Tom.
>> All right. So, but again, this implicates a they're proposing a cabana. They have an existing pool. They have three young boys. They obviously got a lot of family, a lot of entertain a lot. They'd like an space away from the home that they can uh enjoy with their
family. The structure itself, uh the livable area is 494 square ft. And then the covered porch is uh 253 square feet. That's where I got the total of 747, but I think it is in compliance with section
255. I know Bob and I had a brief discussion about that. Um so again, it does implicate a D4 variance. Uh so I have with us Mr. Martins who's our professional engineer. We have Mr. Michael Scro who's the architect and prepared the drawings and also David
Carlback who's a planner who can briefly just discuss the proofs for the Dvarian. >> In addition to the D4 variance I think you also need a variance for the size of the cabana. That's just I mean it's kind of like we I know we we discussed that and I think we can discuss it with the planner but the section
>> that would be a seed barrier not a >> yeah no I understand but I think it says accessory structure can't be greater than 500 square ft >> right >> and then 750 ft of covered area we're at 494 and and total of 747 so I think we
sneak under >> I think we need to address that okay try to figure it out Even if it if it does, we'll discuss it and assumed in the D van. >> The scene would ride on the coattails of the D4 anyway. >> Okay. Okay. Right. So, if we can swear in Mr. Martins,
>> you swear off and I got to do you swear affirm that the testimony you'll give up. You got >> I did. >> Let the record reflect that Mr. Scrabble and and and Mr. Sneakers have been sworn the board's engineer and planner respectively. Mr. Martins is the applicant engineer. has previously been
here before uh so he can be deemed qualified as a field of civil engineer without any further. >> Thank you, Mr. >> Thank you, Mr. Martins. You've prepared the uh drawings that were submitted as part of the application. >> I haven't and they are mounted on my
easel tonight. Uh they were colorized for today's presentation. >> Mark it A1. >> Mark it as A1. just give us the uh last revised date or the date of the plans and the last rev. >> Okay. >> Cabana and so the colorization is
basically the brown area represents the cabana has also been colorized. Great. >> Can you describe the property please? >> Uh sure you have to s. So the property is known as hidden court. It's located on the Culas applicated
as block 1.03 and block 701 map. Uh it's an oversized piece of property. It has an area of 54,000. Uh it's a somewhat of a retro lot as you can see. Uh there's an existing structure on property which is occupied
by the Alpitis certainly the driveways garage in Port Share. Other improvements are some patios in the back and of course the existing pool which is going to be really what they're hoping to do is to construct the Savannah sit in the south southwesterly corner of the
property as I mentioned before that's the brown hash area and the footprint of the structure as he mentioned before that area is 494 square ft of that patio in front of it which is another 253 square ft. So, we have a
total area of 747 square ft of improvements. Uh, we're also proposing some stepping stone areas that connect the patio and the pool to this cover patio. We'll also be some areas on the easterly side of the banana as well, which will have stepping stones. Uh, in
terms of grading, the area around the patio is relatively flat, but it does slope up towards that rear south westerly corner. So, we're going to cut that grade down a little bit. will have a small retaining wall along the westerly side which will be no more than 2 ft and 3 in in height and the rest
again will be sloped. Uh in terms of drainage would propose a new drainage system consisting of cold tech retention chambers. These are underground chambers or roof drains from the P structure to be piped underground to this system. Um one other aspect of this development is
that there is existing storm drains that run uh behind the pool area diagonal. uh we are going to be relocating those uh situated in between as opposed to the manos and the pipes
will be removed as well. Uh we do request a variance for f as we mentioned before that would be.16 is basically the area of the new enclosed structure of 94 which increases the existing conforming
f.16 as I mentioned >> the.16 was Mrs. Scribble said it was 0.19. >> Oh.159. Sorry. >> Okay. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying. >> Uh in all other respects the uh building
the exception of the area to be discussed performs with the building setbacks, rear yard setbacks, sideyard setbacks and building 95. >> Just predom looking at the aerial if you could just describe the predominant land use and what's around the property.
>> Sure. The aerial is a key map. It's also um a little imaging around the property under attack lots. Uh so to the east and basically surrounding on the east side of the southern side is George farm the farmland. Uh to the southwest is Lake
Drive is a multif family development. >> Okay. Do you from a engineering or physical standpoint do you think it would have any impact on any of the neighbors? No, I I think this location is probably the best location in terms
of separation from any neighborhood around other than far. So, you know, the other structures and other structures are located to the north on Hidden Court away from this development and shielding from the banner by the existing housing structures. So, there's really no impact
on anything. >> You can just briefly describe the existing landscaping or uh cover that's there. >> Yeah. So there's an existing tree line, a pine row along the western side. There are some existing trees on the south and
east. >> Thank you. >> Okay. All right. >> The board has any questions of Mr. Martins? >> Yeah, we should um we should do that. his testimony is complete. >> Yes. Start with Mr. Scrabble. >> Sure. Just there was a couple items in
uh email memorandum I sent. I think it was yesterday. Um a tree removal permit would be required for this because they are removing one tree. Uh it's a new ordinance. Exactly how it's being >> Tom. Let's mark your uh your memo of October 7th as B1.
>> Sure. >> I'm assuming that goes through the billing department. Is that right, Jennifer? >> Correct. >> Yes. Um, with regard to the F numbers, um, I looked at the existing numbers as well and there's the existing home is
slightly over. So, I think it's important to know that they couldn't build a cabana at all without a F variance. >> So, I think that then points you in the direction of is what they're trying to build reasonable or not. Um, because it's not a matter of, you know, if could
they reduce it and not require a variance at all? that that would not be possible. >> Yeah. >> Um my biggest concerns has to do and they're not really concerns, they're just um items that need to to be addressed. The stormwater management system. Um if you recall, I'm sure most
of you do, this system was built when Hidden Court was constructed. Um there's properties to the north outside of the Hidden Court subdivision on I guess that's on Connor's Lane. A lot of water runs along the back of
those. eventually gets to the southeast corner of this lot. So, two 24-in pipes were built under the back of this property so that it could be filled in and made a reasonable yard area. Uh otherwise, there was there was an
existing low area, basically a gully that ran through this property. So, the pipes were constructed to service other residents, but they were constructed solely on this lot. So at that time there was some discussion but the
decision was made to to make it a private system. Um it's again totally within this this lot. The burrow doesn't need to own and operate it. Um so we made the decision at that time to keep it private. >> How long was that? >> I'm sorry. >> How long ago was that?
>> Hidden court. It's got to be >> 15. >> Thank you. Um I don't see any reason to change it. I just wanted to bring that to the board's attention. Um, in case somebody feels differently about it. Um, the second
aspect of the the drainage comment is, you know, since it is a pretty large undertaking, there are two 24-in pipes, uh, four manholes that need to be constructed. Uh, this is something that should probably be bonded even though it's a private improvement. >> The mayor and council would need to be involved for sure.
>> But again, it's not an easement. It's all public. It's all privately owned. Oh, that's a >> It's unique. >> Yeah, >> that's why I mentioned it. That's why I mentioned it. It's definitely a unique ordinance, private property. >> All I'm looking for is the ability to to
have some control over it and be able to inspect it on behalf of the burrow. That's really my only concern. >> Well, I can make that a condition of any approval. >> And what would the condition be? that the uh burrow will have the uh right
but not the obligation to uh access the area where the drainage improvements are located to determine their condition and to determine whether any maintenance is necessary >> and and to be able to inspect them during the reconstruction. I think
that's important. >> Would that be acceptable? Yeah, that we have no problem to that condition or stipulation. >> And then the last item I had is that a soil movement permit would be required, but that's minor.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Next, Mr. chairman. Um, from an engineering standpoint, the location of the cabana, it was chosen for that location because of its proximity to the pool obviously. >> Yes.
>> And, uh, it's also relating to this whole storm water issue where the pipes are located, correct? >> Yes. So, you have to separate it from the pool patio because the location of the pipe. >> Okay. And then you had mentioned the evergreen trees will remain along I guess is that the norly property line? >> That's the westerly side.
>> That's the westerly. Thank you. I see the north arrow now. Thank you. Um, and the retaining wall that's being proposed there, is that something that's going to have a geog grid associated with it or is it small enough just to be a gravity wall? >> It's small enough to be a gravity. >> So, no disturbance of the evergreen trees in the area as a result, but there
will be some cut at the root line root. >> Yeah. So, we've kept it in wide line of the pine. So, there should be enough clearance to be able to cut behind it and back fill without disturbing. >> Okay. and then the I guess the architect will speak to the building and its and
its rationale for the design of it. Okay. Um that's all the questions I have for the engineer. Thank you. >> Thank you Tom. >> Uh no, Mr. Scrabble addressed my issues.
>> Okay. Um, yeah. And I don't know who the questions are go to or not, but um, there are pictures in the I guess that should go to the architect. >> Yes, renderings. >> Oh, renderings. Yeah, those are renderings though. They're not because they're pretty nice renderings. I photos
or not. >> Um, well, the only question I have, and I guess it might even go more to the applicant, but I'll let you determine it, is >> um, this has all the features of what would be a home at the end of the day. It's got a bathroom. It's got something that resembles a kitchen. Um, we would
need some kind of an assurance that would never be used for living quarters. >> Yes, certainly. We certainly stipulate that uh it would never be >> it would have to be part of the resolution. >> The resolution may need to be recorded. >> Okay. >> Cover that.
>> I have nothing for the engineer. Thank you. >> I've got nothing. It was dirt farm when I was a kid. So, no damage to houses or fences. So, Uh-huh. >> No questions.
>> I I have just one question, Tom. Did I understand that you said the house is above the floor area ratio >> slightly? Yes >> on an oversized lot and we're going to make it bigger. >> Yes,
>> we're going to >> Okay, that's my only question. And I I don't Was the F ordinance in effect when Hidden Court was built? 2015. >> It should have been. Yeah. >> I wasn't sure about that.
>> It was put into effect before I joined the board. >> So, >> guess the question would be how did that happen? >> Yeah. >> How did it get built? Yeah. When it exceeded >> to some extent the the calculation of F is a is an art form. I think um there's
definitely a little bit of play in it. >> Yeah. And I'm assuming that the plans that that were submitted showed it just under. And the only thing I would add is I don't think it's it's atypical that houses in
this neighborhood um were right at the F number. I mean that this was, you know, intended to be a very high-end neighborhood at the time and with some big homes. And I I would guess if you looked at the F numbers for all of those lots, they would be right on the number.
>> F was 2005. >> Okay. >> That's 20 years. >> Interesting. >> Actually, Tom, just going back to you, you gave that brief history of the two 24in lines. Those are the lines that the engineer intends to relocate,
>> right? >> Where do those lines run? Do they run off the property? literally the there was a a ditch behind um where this house was going to be built. Um that needed to be filled in in order to make it a reasonable yard for for this type of
house. Um so the water is just taken being taken from one side of the hump that they built to the other side of the hump and it discharges into the the reservoir. There was always um I don't even know if it's pipe work,
but it's kind of like a stone swale. There was a defined channel on the water company property because water always ran through this prop this lot. So we just piped piped it where the fill needed to be put in, but it's ending up in the same spot. >> Okay. And that swale is it's an
overground swale. It's not an underground piping >> for the water company. It's it's above ground. Yes. >> Okay. >> For the most maybe not all of it, but initially it is. >> Yeah. I I have a question for Tom. I mean, how much over was the fart like uh
calculation? >> Well, the the numbers are on there. They're showing the existing floor area, >> not not the new condition. They >> Yeah, the pre-existing condition. >> Yeah. >> Was 8238 divided by >> 54849.
So they were at 15%. >> I see. >> So over >> 15. So 1% over >> they were at I'm looking at I got I got 15.0 is what they the pre-existing condition is that
>> I'm sorry. >> How many square feet is that >> above the 14? >> Yeah. >> I'm doing real math. >> Yeah, I know. >> So I always have that problem with F. I'm like why can't they just tell us what the square footage is?
So allowed was 7679US 8238 >> 560 559. >> Wow. >> That's not slightly over. >> You know, Tom, I probably included some porches and things of that nature in
these calculations that probably were not included in the original approved plan. So I'm sure the original plans comply with the 0.94. Yeah, I I think you're you're probably correct. I most if if I were to do it, I would do the same thing. You include anything you think might be included um just to be
safe because you don't want to ask for 16% and then you find out you actually needed 18. So, you have to be conservative when you're doing these numbers, especially when you're asking for a variant. So, I I would agree with Mark on that that that's probably what happened. And you could you might want
to spend the time and do the analysis and come back and find out whether you need a 2% variance. That might be worth your effort, but that's up to you. >> Yeah, I think again we're I think what we're presenting is the addition of
again the 743 747 square ft. Uh what we were before for the last 10 years or not, I think uh we've been pretty patient to get to this point. Uh so I don't really know how
productive that is to just come back to say yeah here's the extent of our variance. I think we know what we're asking for and we probably rely on our testimony as to what if any effect uh the construction of this cabana will
have uh to support our variance request. >> Yeah. I'm not trying to steer your belief. Okay. Sorry. >> But if Mr. is correct, then that you're looking at a a a property that has 540 plus 750, we'll call it, square feet over F. You're looking at something
that's,300 ft² over if I math right. I'm not really good at math, but >> that's that's fairly significant. >> The reality is it's not going to change, I hope. Well, >> um, but so again, I think we'd like to
proceed with, uh, our testimony kind of think you'll see from, >> you know, we're going to continue with the testimony, but it's just those are sobering numbers. We don't see F >> overruns that big. >> Yeah, I I understand, but again, this is, as we've said, it's kind of one of
the premier neighborhoods and the size of our property. >> I understand that. You also need to demonstrate >> doesn't justify >> what is the uh public benefit in terms of purpose of the zoning that would justify additional overage beyond what is already there.
>> Okay. >> Whether it's premier or not. >> Yeah. >> You know, there's other people in this town that would like to get a little bit above the F and some can't get the approval to do that. So, it is changing even though
you're saying it's not changing. I I understand. I know we're we're that's what we're here for to ask for the variance we're presenting. >> Right. I just want to be clear. >> I appreciate it. No, I >> I not changing is not an accurate statement. >> No, what I'm saying is proposal wise it's it's not going to change. I can't
do anything different. >> You can't undo that. I completely understand that. But this only exacerbates it. >> Understood. >> All right. I had other comments. Um this is regarding you know you're
connecting to existing two pipes. >> Are you putting a manhole? It's hard to see on 11 by7. >> Yes. >> How you how you're making the connection to the existing pipe. >> So there'll be a total of four manholes. So there's two parallel pipes. Yes.
>> Two man holes on top of each uh pipe structure. >> Okay. The two are in the west and >> right >> two in this I guess. Yeah. East. >> How deep are these manholes? >> I don't believe they're that deep. We
have about 14. So that's about 5t lower manhole. Approximately 5T. >> 5T. >> Yeah. I was um concerned about the manholes too because they're like
5 ft deep, but I think you're going to be excavating further than that. Um, and I'm just concerned it's just it's really close to the edge of the pool. I don't know if you're concerned about that at all. >> No, we have we have enough clearance geese to be able to get a machine in
there. There's a lot of open space, but we work around it. Uh, and that's where the existing pipe is already. So really just sight which is really close to the course but it's just sufficient room to maneuver an extra impact may impact some
of the patio area but that would be >> and then where does the subject um not just subject is there a subject on the site or there's no there was house that connects to the existing sewer
cabana because you're showing the cabana will be connected through the house probably. >> Thank you. >> I have no questions. We're hearing more testimony right from the architect. >> I saved myself.
Yeah, he just answered the question with regard to uh Nikki's question about the sewer system being connected in. So I'm I'm good. >> Thank you, Mr. Kramer. >> All right. I'm sorry. The the ejector pump, that will be the sole responsibility of the resident.
>> Oh, yes. >> Okay. >> Thank you. All right. We should open up the meeting to the public. I speak to Mr. Martins's uh about his testimony only, which I struggled doing, but that's a whole different issue. Um, anybody want to make a recommendation?
>> Motion to open. >> Second. All in favor? >> I. >> Anybody from the public have any questions or comments for the uh engineer, Mr. Martins, regarding his testimony? >> Seeing none. >> Motion to close.
>> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Okay. >> Okay. My next witness is Mr. Michael Scrow, who's our architect. Okay. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you'll give in this proceeding
shall be approved help? >> And for the record, set your full name and spell your last name, please. >> My fault. Michael Stroke, S O, principal of D plus Architects, 240 West Creston, Allenale, New Jersey 074. >> Mr. Mr. Scro, can you please provide the
board with the benefit of your education and license? >> I hold a bachelor of architecture from Penn State University. I hold a master of architecture from O'Neal University. I've been a principal of our firm for over 24 years. Uh I testified across the
state of New Jersey at Bars. My license is in good standing. >> Mr. Chairman, I believe he can accept it without any >> Mr. Stamos. So, you're going to mark his plans? >> Yes. Is there >> 82 82?
>> Give us your the date of the plan, please. Mike >> 4125. >> So, it's this is 108. It's today's date. >> Yes. >> Um there's no new content on the plan. It's just reformatted from what was submitted. And then if you'd like, I can
also there's a rendering marker for the board. >> Is that part of the package? >> Part of the package. >> No, we mark it one exhibit A2. >> Yeah. Okay. Can you briefly describe the proposed structure and >> your reasoning?
>> So, uh it's comprised of and I won't repass all of this included. I think those have been adequately uh provided um testimony essentially a lounge space uh with a kitchenet uh a powder room uh just a
toilet sink and then a small changing area with a convenience stackable washer dryer for changing out uh and then a covered open air structure uh that addresses uh the pool. The cabana really
draws its inspiration from the main house. Uh we're adhering to the principal materials, natural stucco, uh natural stone thin veneer in the base just for durability and also additional character. The roofing is
going to match uh the house. Um it's currently asphalt and um uh obviously the roof forms themselves. If gable is consistent with uh uh the existing Okay. And the I know you just is there
any other feature? I think you said is there like an outdoor shower I guess for >> Yes. So there's a proposed outdoor shower. It's also included within the uh reser quiddage is not removed. It's just air. Um and uh
>> windows I should also say are consistent uh both in terms of coloration and also real pattern with the house. Uh again, we we weren't looking to reinvent the wheel. It's a it's a we did not design the original house, but it was well done
and uh we simply uh drew our inspiration from that and try to stay consistent with it. And >> just to confirm from the architectural standpoint, the covered area structures 494 94 ft. >> Uh that is correct. and 253 of open air
porch. And the porch is supported by two columns. Uh obviously composite material. I should also mention that any trim, crowns, breezes, uh that will all be very high quality, low um maintenance likely um or something
similar. >> Yes, please. >> So the rendering depicts the view the pool is um um out of frame. Obviously, it's an artistic interpretation. Uh we always run into a little bit of trouble
with uh trying to create the boundary edge with plantings. So, we put that obviously on the property line to kind of give a sense of of boundary. It's it's not to suggest that uh that evergreen line exists, but you can see
open air. Um we have no um outwardly projecting lights proposed. Obviously, code requires us at any um entry point to have light. So, we want to use exterior recess light that will softly wash down. There's really no neighbors necessarily to impact, but it still is
responsible and appropriate to kind of control a light down. >> Okay. And again, it's not although it has the features, it's not intended for, you know, constant habitation, right? >> Absolutely not. That's not
>> uh >> all utilities I guess including heat. >> Yeah, I think that's it for >> all utilities. >> Uh yeah, >> that's my question. >> Heat there. Yeah, >> heat. So it will be uh essentially a split unit. No ducks. Um just one
condenser uh and heat pump that essentially will just u it's a very small space. It doesn't need anything perfect. >> So I'll have all utilities. >> Correct. Uh but there's no cooking source nor gas like there's no gas bars or appliances other than
>> So the kitchen doesn't have a stove. >> Absolutely not. [Applause] [Music] >> Anything else, Mr. Scrow? >> I think the only thing that might be just in it has a little bit more to do
it's kind of that that blurred line of um between civil and architectural. Uh we were we really were hoping um just you know architects sometimes a little bit uh hyperfocused on uh actual
relationships and we would love to center on the pool. We really wanted to try to avoid further encroachment on and creating side or other types of bulk. Um in this case obviously we comply the building is 13 uh feet for a little bit
under but certainly safely say that's your max ridge. Um so we did uh simply accommodate new slide. Uh it will still look very um kind of appropriate with the pool but obviously not the center of that. It's the only
>> That's it for the direct testimony. Yep. >> The runaround. >> Just one question. What's the uh outdoor shower? Does that have a floor, a drain, or is that >> It's just gravel. >> Gravel. >> Yeah. Uh it's it's not it's not drained and piped and and part of we don't see
it really as kind of a a hard shower, right? It will simply be >> a rinse off. >> And I'm just curious, how do you address that like code codewise? You're allowed people are going to use shampoo and soap in it, etc. Like, but you're allowed. Actually, that's where I would say certainly that was not expressed to me
in terms of this is literally just if you're jumping out of a pool and you want to rinse off uh the chlorine. It was never expressed that that would be for bathing or or or cleansing, right? Uh we work at the Belmar office. We work at the shore all the time. uh they're they're commonly accepted simply because
they're not seen as and again you can you can create one as such but that was not expressed as a use to us that um and I think we were explicitly trying to because of some of the concern earlier raised or at least the question of could this be an ADU or something like we
wanted to really be like without a functioning chapel so the powder room inside is that right and then the just literally for convenience and Thanks. That's all. >> Thank you, >> chairman. Uh just a question regarding
the square footages of the uh interior space that's being proposed. What was the driving factor? You've heard some of the concerns about the Albert's the addition of this additional F and the overall square footage. Can you go through some of the dimensions and why
those dimensions were chosen? >> Yep, happy to. So essentially a powder room at at 6 by six let's call it um is it metric with any uh powder room in terms of code requires 18 in off a center line of
toilet uh and then obviously a pedestal sink. Um so we we we set that and that just carried itself the house is relatively balanced and symmetrical. So in terms of trying to lay out the space we were trying to do the same thing. did
not want something you know that was referential back to the house and suddenly the house has a balance and then this does not. So you start to kind of develop uh okay this is a kind of a finite width that makes sense in terms of uh a place to change uh books towels
a bench a stackable washer dryer as I mentioned so the thing is once we had this it kind of lent itself to all right for symmetry let's kind of mirror that on the other side and it actually works quite well in the sense of you could have a small um refrigerator a sink
convenience dishwasher we haven't gone into those details yet. We typically get to at at construction documents. Probably for this use, you would do a a dishwasher drawer and just keep things for uh glassware and such for uh entertainment um out in the space. So
this is this is by no stretch an oversized um space or it's 6 ft wide to galley kitchenet in many ways just to kind of serve some drinks out through uh through a window that would then open and and just you know all of the
amenities that I think you are commensurate with a backyard that you see with this type of home. Um and then obviously we're providing for a mechanical space that will probably be a tankless. I haven't again spoken uh to uh to the uh homeowners about those
details yet, but it'll be tankers or a very small um uh uh hot water heater for domestic. And then just for ambiance um uh have a small um gas fireplace. The lounge itself is 12
by 15. Um again in many ways trying to kind of avoid these long anytime you can create a job you can create a loop right so we were trying hard not to just have a blank uh you know I guess it would be 25 excuse my
eyes 26T wide um facade so a small bump these are envisioned probably as as some type of nesting door package um so that it really is largely open air uh pool use and the and the the the flooring of the inside is going to be very
sympathetic in terms of probably something that's you know high traction low slip um durable uh for wet feet. So it just in terms of answering your your question directly in terms of space certainly a covered entertaining space we talked about that earlier tonight
this is um throttle point I don't use holes >> 22 ft by 9 and 12 almost 10 10 to the outside of the column but usable where you would put furniture so we I think we heard
testimony I I don't want to just keep numbers, but I think it was something like 18 by 20 or change and and and then um it's not it's not oversized in terms of trying to create simple covered space where you can have some outdoor furniture not to have to go through this
constant oh it's going to rain and you cover the furniture or you bring it in. So I think this is a feature that we're finding almost we almost don't do a house anymore without a covered entertaining space off the back obviously at the budget house. So, I think they're commensurate with
what you would expect in terms of this is not an overly exoriented. You'll fit uh probably a sixoot couch and maybe two um uh easy chairs out here. You'll probably be limited to you certainly aren't getting into any kind of extensive sectionals or things like
that. >> Thank you. No further questions. >> Thank you. Um, no. We just uh So, there is heat in here, so it can be used for year round. >> That's true. >> Okay. And you said it would be just a heat pump. >> It's just a heat pump. And uh and one
unit will we're not sure yet where we're going to ultimately it's probably going to be upper one of these upper kind of walls side facing. It'll just be at a wall-mounted register. Um, and I think in large part, uh, just in in conversations, it's, you know, certainly
not big enough for a Super Bowl party, but if you're sitting and you're kind of outdoors and there's really no, a lot of times we'll do an outdoor fireplace, like a a true feature, and then you can get a fire a TV over that, etc. There's just really no place for outdoor TV. So
we looked at that and said, "Listen, if you know, you're into playoff season and you want to kind of have the doors open but still feel comfortable. Seems like a nice amenity commensurate with homes again of this." >> So So this cabana, you wouldn't have to winterize it at all. Then
>> you're just going to be running the heat in there and >> it would be up to them. You certainly could drain it down >> and leave it, you know, take the pool, the the chase lounges, use it simply as offseason storage, right? and then in spring get it going again. Um I would
always advise that just from a I never like to see sheetrock or any like if you've got some of the challenges of outdoor kitchen sometimes are just you know it's tough if you can keep them somewhat tempered and gasket and other things just stay. Um so I think you always want to keep this in the 50s. Um
if they chose to use it would be just such a small space you could literally keep this at 60. This time you're going to use it in a couple hours and bring it right up and then let it fall right back to 60 when you're done. >> Okay, that's it.
>> Okay. Um, so do have a few questions and comments and let me start with it's beautiful. Really is a beautiful design. >> Thank you. Well, we're really following the house. We shouldn't >> take No, no, but still it you know, listen, we can we can appreciate something. Um, you I think you
understood from my earlier comments that very concerned about F. This town, this burrow has had issues with F going back 20 years. >> I see it >> and and we we put in an F ordinance specifically to prevent that from happening.
>> And and we've had some homes that are very large. Um, this um would be right in there. this with with the with the original overrun and then with this additional 750 square feet, let's call it. Um it would be very significant. So I have I have significant concern about
that. I just need to say that um the shower, by the way, um and I guess is more answering to Tom. That's common. At our beach home, we have a shower like that. No no drain on the bottom. It just drains out onto the gravel. I use it all the time where we
go and I just I don't I didn't understand how it gets approved like codewise. >> Yeah. It's weird. I know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's different. >> I think people just kind of squint. >> It's almost up to the code. I've seen some towns literally make make us hard pipe to drink, >> right?
>> Um there seems no rhyme or reason to it. Um ultimately >> more think to be maintained too. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. >> Um if you can you it's a two-part question about size. you did talk about the size of the both the indoor and outdoor. Can you just elaborate more on
what what the activities are that would occur? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, and one thing I should say is that um you know obviously I don't have I don't we did not design so I don't have the numbers u for the main house right so um that being over
obviously um I can't speak to for this proper we've essentially got a 6x6 um bathroom um and that's simply for just u a toilet and and stamp use right the changing area is 10 also by
Um, and it does have direct access out, right? So, the one problem that you have a lot of times with these nesting doors is they typically lock from the inside. Um, as they nest, it's it's just like it's it's hard to essentially lock it up, right? So, they're usually secure
from the inside. So, we added these kind of directly so that if it didn't happen to be open to someone with the kids outside, they need to go to the bathroom, they could access those spaces. Um and then over here the the kitchenet area essentially again I think
it's really important to note um as these stack up this the width of this powder room certainly set you really it would be it would be dimminimous if you said well could you could you steal 4 in out of that it would limit you know
you would start to get into things like you could only use certain types of testable things etc right so I think this is actually quite commensurate and certainly wasn't anything that was um grandiose. Setting this and then mirroring that created an al cove that we could get a galley kitchenet in. And
again, uh whether it'll be an underounter beverage center, um a sink in the drawer, um those that's as it was explained to me, that really is just something about once you're away from the house and you're experiencing the
pool out at that point, you know, kind of keep running back and forth to um uh to uh to grab drinks and things like that. So, this was kind of like, look, we'll stop this. We'll have some lower cabinets. We don't envision really any upper cabins to speak of. Um a small
little rollup window again to be decided in terms of if that's a hinging window, but that drinks could just perform more of an adult use could be handed out through that. Um that's really and then just some basic seating
in the 12 by 15 area. Well, it's not really 15. So the 12 by 15 um gives you a sense of it's a it's it's commensurate with a living space where you would try to have a couch, two chairs. We know that from our interior uh design group. They
harass us all the time as architects saying don't create spaces if you can't actually furnish if there isn't a place where you can put a proper TV. So I think like we're quite in tune with um sizing. And it just so happened that as we talked about this, it was actually a
little bit bigger and we saw like, well, you know what, there are limits. And again, the same way that we skewed it off of the center line of pool to avoid additional, you know, bulk uh variances, we simply said like, look, this is commensurate to use, but it's also
there's no reason um we shaved it down wherever we could to try to make sure that we were compliant with that overall number in your ordinance. >> Okay. The second part of that question about activities is you mentioned storage before. So where will all the chase
lounges and chairs and everything be stored in the offseason? >> Great question and I would have to defer really probably to the homeowner on that in the sense of um if this is going dormant and quiet then certainly there's ample uh you can just kind of pile up
cushions. You could you can um you can throw um anything that would be on the hardcape. If it's being used on occasion, >> then I would imagine they're going to store the pool furniture the way they store it today. Not having this feature, garage or basement or
>> Yeah, that's an important question. >> We need right now. >> Yeah, we don't have to bring them up and swear. >> Are you going to call them as witnesses? Yeah. Only if you had questions and since you do a question. >> Yeah. No. >> All right. Well, let's swear them in.
>> Both of you. You swear or affirm that the testimony you'll give in this person shall be yourself. >> Thank you. >> And just state your names for the record, please. >> Diane Al. >> Thank you. So, why don't we So, the storage of all that would go in the garage and that's
where you keep it now. >> That's where we currently put it out. >> Okay. So, no reason to change any of that. >> We would like to ideally um wear the washer dryer um adjacent to the cover room. Um we would like to put the uh lawn chairs like the
in in there. It's a perfect measurement, perfect size that goes up in there opposed to the garage. Anything else I mean would be >> okay. So, no need to build an outdoor shed or anything like that. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Right. That's it for me for my
questions. >> My question is you're trying to get, you know, the bathroom, the powder room 6 foot, the other side 6 foot. You have the wart of the shower sticking out to the right. Kind of bothers me. There's nothing to
the left. You're going that way. So, I just have I just have to say >> can't add any more square footage. >> Yeah, >> I'm just saying it's bothering you. Okay, that's it. No more questions or statements. Whatever. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And I just have to echo the concern of
the chairman about the F exceedences. Um but apparently you weren't aware of those when you did your design. I do notice in your rendering though, um that there seems to be, you know, a hardcape outside like that looks like a patio there.
>> Yeah. So this >> Yeah. Is that an imper impermeable surface there? uh or will that be but it echoes the roof line above it. So the there is no there there's no intention that that surface is going to exceed the drift line of the of of the of the roof.
So it does not add any additional impervious. Uh obviously that's already been I think contemplated in the overall coverage in terms of what potential but it's it's it's it is no further than simply the rule of law. Okay. Um, yeah,
cuz that in the rendering there that I guess um a little misleading there question the columns actually are sitting kind of in board and obviously you've got the overhang and things like that and but we will obviously be very very careful. Uh
>> there's really no need and it actually would uh probably be awkward to have it run much past because the furniture is not going to kind of sit half in and out on the drip line. You really are are going to be inside. Yeah, exactly. Okay.
And you mentioned um a gas fired fireplace there. Is that >> we have not had extensive conversations about that. Um the sense of it that I got was kind of an ambiance. We certainly don't need a heat. Um you're not looking at 30 40,000 BTU. You you
pull yourself out of that space. So it's literally for ambiance and there's a lot of options now in terms of what that can do. >> Yeah. Okay. because I didn't know whether you were talking about a propane tank that might need a concrete pad >> outside. >> No, I think I I think it we're going to
piggy back off of and again these are all things that we'll have to make sure of in terms of the CCS, right? The construction documents. Um >> I'm assuming that there's enough gas >> to the pool equipment nearby, right, that then would just um the other thing that I think we just
want to have to make sure that the kind of work around. I'm hearing things about, you know, a a covert being built and things like that. We want to make sure that obviously when we're getting into putting some foundations are putting like we're making sure that we're we're
it's not soil that we're getting down to that we somehow address that something that >> All right. Thank you. That that was all I had. >> Uh no additional questions for me. I have a question regarding the pathway
from >> the pool to the uh >> the dwelling this new structure three yes >> it's not 100% in previous because
>> has like what are these like coffee >> yeah so it's a good it's a good question I think that you'll see got to be 10 >> I apologize there's probably no better way to describe it at least I don't have the ability But there's a it tended to be a trend out in the Hamptons where you would start to see a a grass grow in
between neighbors. Um and that has migrated to kind of other regions. So the goal is to just simply and again our rendering software we're not landscape architects. It's just to suggest something. We did not want to kind of just leave it where we had a kind of a a
seating area and then applied grass between it'll be something to keep your feet clean from getting grass as you go to the pool. But it's also just with the intention that it's not a hardcaped kind of uh routed joint. It's essentially grass in between favors
stepping probably 2 by two in nature if I had to say it. The only question I had um that's a good deal partially, you know, asked the same thing. You mentioned the gas fireplace, >> but then you also said you wouldn't have any gas coming to the building.
>> Yeah, I I I apologize for that. The thing is is um it's to be determined in terms of there's really uh effective uh electric fireplaces. as kind of cheesy as that sounds. They're not. They're they're getting better. There's water
vapor. There's all sorts of and we just really haven't gotten into uh that level of what what what are you trying to achieve with it. So, um it wasn't a central focus of of mine when so I misspoke. We will if it if it needs it, it will have a very small gas line, but
again, not of the nature of anything that we're looking to try to heat the space with um simply because of the split. But thank you for pointing that out. >> And just as a followup on that, any a gas line from the pool equipment would have to go under the 24in pipe. So >> question,
>> so it would be somewhat significant construction item. >> I would imagine since they're going to be into this, right? Um that uh and we had we had pretty extensive conversations with the builder. Uh we were not doing this in a vacuum as a team. He was confident that all the
things that we were proposing he could pull up. He was the the original builder is also going to uh um potentially be the uh uh the person should this be approved to build this. So he's aware and comfortable with those requirements.
>> No gas line inside the pipe. That's all I'm asking. >> Totally understand that. That would be that it's not a [Applause] >> I'm okay for now. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> No questions.
>> Okay. We're going to open the meeting to the public for questions of the architect. Anybody want to make a motion for that? >> Make a motion. >> Thank you. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I Does anybody from the public have any questions or comments for the architect regarding his testimony only?
>> Seeing none, >> motion to close. >> There you go. Nice. >> All right. Beep the beep. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I Mr. Stavos. >> Thanks. We have our last witness is our professional planner, Mr. David
Carlback. >> You swear or affirm that the testimonial given this proceeding shall be forgiven. >> I do. >> And further I can state your full name and spell your last name, please. >> David Carlback. K A R L E B A C H. >> Mr. Chairman, Mr. Carlback's been here
before and other uh boards I representing qualified as a part. Thank you. I mark this. >> Okay. Uh Dave has a three-page exhibit that
I've marked as A3. David, it's a entitled planning exhibit for four hidden court, New Jersey. >> This is something we haven't seen yet. >> Correct. Yeah. It's pretty straightforward. A little time to
digest it before you give us a few minutes to take a look at it before you start your testimony. >> I just died. >> That's kind of my kicking in. Looks like the square tiles
or not. >> While we're waiting for that to be handed around, is there any opening statements? Yeah, let's do that. >> So, uh, David, what have uh you reviewed in preparation for tonight's testimony? >> Well, I've reviewed all of the application materials, including the
architect drawings and uh site plan drawings. Uh, I have reviewed the municipal zoning ordinance and the master plan. I reviewed the relevant case law. I have visited the site and the surrounding areas. I photographed the site and I prepared the photo
exhibit that you have in front of you. And just based upon your review, you're familiar with the relief being or required to be sought this evening? >> Yes, I am familiar that this is a F variance which requires a AD variance.
Uh before I get into the proofs that are necessary to the granting the variant, I just want to go over at least the first page of the exhibit with the board because it does uh paint a nice picture of uh of the surrounding areas. Um, if you look at sheet one,
this is a a fairly recent aerial exhibit. Uh, it doesn't show the enclave at Old Japan, which is just off the bottom of the page, but you can see some of the old other features. Lake Tapan, which is about 350 ft uh to the west of
the site. It shows Stokes Farm, which abuts the site uh to the east, and it shows some of the area homes. Now, as uh Mr. Scrabble said before, this area is developed with very large homes on uh very large lots. Minimum lot area
requirement is 40,000 square ft. Many of these homes are 6,000 square ft. Some of them, I believe 39 uh Okconor Lane is over 10,000t home. So, um I'm not concerned with this this home being out
of scale with the surrounding area because they're all very very large homes. And you can see this is a remote location. I mean, the name alone tells us Hidden Court. All right. What does that tell you? It's it's hard to find. It's hard to get to. And this particular
property is the last home on Hidden Court. So very few people have the occasion to drive down this road unless they live there or unless there are visitors there. As a matter of fact, there's only three homes that have a hidden court address. Uh the other two
homes are actually front on Okconor's Lane. So you have I think uh three, four, and five hidden court. That's it. Those are the three homes. So I guess what I'm saying is very little activity on this roadway. There's no public traffic that that goes through this
area. And then you have the farm. We're really not concerned so much about the view of this site from the uh the farm. Uh you have Lake View Drive to the southwest. And uh significant buffering, you know, the natural vegetation in the area,
which I tried to depict in some of the other photographs. If you look at page two of the exhibit uh without describing each and every photograph, you can see there is significant mature evergreen vegetation along the per perimeter of
this property. Uh which will conceal the view of this cabana from all locations surrounding the site, including the Lake View homes, uh including traffic on on Hidden Court. uh not that it needs to be screened because quite frankly this is
an attractive building. It's not like we're trying to scream up screen a parking lot or a dumpster. It's very attractive building. Uh in terms of zoning, the property is located in the RA 40C zone. That does permit single family homes on 40,000t
lots. This lot happens to be uh quite a bit larger. I think it's 1.37 times the minimum lot area requirement uh in the zone. And uh if you heard testimony the floor area ratio that's permitted is.14
and what's being proposed is.16. Now in terms of the legal standard uh for the granting or the proofs that are required for the grant of the D4 variance as the board knows but the public may not know it's not the same as
a D1 variance a use variance. Uh they're they're totally separate and and distinct. Uh for instance, as it pertains to the positive criteria, the courts have held that a D4 variant is more akin to a conditional use variance
than a D1 variant. So the board's focus then is uh on whether the site will accommodate the problems associated with the proposed permitted use but with a larger floor area than permitted by ordinance. Okay. So we don't have the
standard positive criteria for a use variance. That positive criteria is tailored specifically for the FAR variance. So the Randolph case which is really the the case that provides boards with
guidance on how to keep or decide decide these applications uh exempts the applicant from Medici's enhanced standard of proof and the applicant also does not need to demonstrate particular suitability.
So it's a lessened burden of proof for a D4 variance. Now with regard to the positive criteria as I said the subject property must accommodate the problems normally associated with an higher F and I believe uh it does accommodate many of
those problems because the footprint of the existing building is unchanged. Now, this site has been supporting an F of 0.14 for 10 years, and there's no reason for me to believe that it also can't
support an F of.16. And I say that because there's no change to the principal dwelling. The change occurs at the rear of the property at a remote location, completely screened from public view.
Now, I might have a different opinion. if the mass of the principal structure changed and it was closer to the public roadway were it be visible but that's just not the case here and we're going to talk about the master plan a little bit later on because the master plan emphasizes exactly that point that when
we talk about F we're trying to control the bulk of principal structures okay so they're not out of character with the surrounding areas that's clearly not the case here this is something totally uh the fact that the principal building
is there now is vastly different than an application for a new structure on an empty lot. Here we already have the benefit of knowing what an F of 0.14 looks like on this lot. Uh there's no increase in demand for
municipal services. The source service uh and water supply are adequate. There's the site has sufficient area for parking on the driveway and in the garage. This proposal will not result in increased congestion or overcrowding.
There are no proposed encroachments onto the required setbacks. And as I said, the proposed F variance is offset by the remote location of this additional structure distant from a public roadway
and area homes. With regard to the negative criteria, uh the first problem of the negative criteria is that uh there shall be no substantial detriment to the public good. And although the uh cabana is part of
the F calculation, the emphasis stressed in the master plan is to regulate oversized dwellings that may be incompatible with a neighborhood. And I'm going to quote from the master plan. It says such. >> Can you give us the page number? Uh,
page number 13. Page number 13. Such F provisions serve to avert the undesirable arewide phenomenon of houses being constructed that are too large for their lot and out of scale with their neighborhoods.
Now, as I said, this is not the largest home on the block. They're all large homes. Uh, the neighboring home to the north has 6,688 square ft. 39 O Conor's Lane, which is two lots to the north, is a 10,000 square foot home that also has a tennis
court, a swimming pool, and a cabana. So, I'm going to ask the board members to consider the magnitude of the development. 494 square ft of employer area not occupied on a full-time basis or not intended to be occupied occupied
on a full-time basis, only during the summer months uh and only during a temporary basis. That's the way it would normally occur first. I know you heard testimony that yes, uh it could be used year round, but uh that's not my experience. Uh in terms of visibility,
again, there's very limited if any visibility from uh areas outside of this site. If you look at the um bottom of page two, the bottom right hand corner, there's a view from Hidden Court about 320 ft northeast of the cabana. And uh
from that particular viewpoint, the home will shield the view of the cabana. If you look on the following page on the bottom two photographs, you have a view from Park Avenue, uh approximately 770 ft south of the site. And from that
location, again, you can see that nice evergreen screen. And then you have uh Stokes Farm, and then you can see actually uh the rooftop from uh for Hidden Court. And finally, um, on the bottom right, a view from the terminus
of Lake View Drive, approximately 200 ft southwest of the site. That's the nearest location from those Lake View homes to the site. And uh, again, substantial vegetation in that area. And as I said before, I'm not concerned about this building being screened. It's
an attractive building. It doesn't need to be screened. I believe the deviation uh is not going to be detectable to the general public for the reasons I just stated. Um and it's certainly not large enough to
create a substantial impact and that's the test board members as you know the impact must be substantial. Um I haven't identified any community uh community impacts. Uh any perceived
detriment will not cause detriment to the character of the neighborhood. In fact, I think this proposal is an improvement to the site and the neighborhood. And the second prong of the negative criteria is that we have to address the zone plan and zoning
ordinance. There shouldn't be a substantial impairment of the zone plan. Uh and I I just mentioned that those very important goals and objectives in the 2016 master plan talking about averting the undesirable effect of
houses being uh out of scale with their environment. Um and the master plan also recognizes that the F orance is a work in process. So it sounds like there's at least discussions about it being tweaked somehow.
I >> I'm not aware of that. You might have some knowledge that I >> Yeah. As as a I mean the planning board recognized that planning board did. Now whether or not it reached the council, I don't know, but uh it's in the master plan saying it's a work in progress. >> 2016.
>> From 2016 throughout. >> Yeah. >> So it was we know it was adopted in 2005. We know it was amended in 2006. I I wasn't in attendance any of those uh council meetings, so I can't say what happened with the the FA ordinance since
2006. I just don't know. Um I again the mass of the building is consistent with area homes. All of the setbacks of the principal building remained unchanged. When I look to see if a site is overdeveloped, yes, I'll look at the F of course, but I'm also looking at the
uh the building coverage. And here the building coverage uh is at or near 9%. Uh what's permissible is 15%. So that's that's quite a difference. That's a pretty uh safe spread between 9 and 15%.
Um residents and passers by are already acclimated to the height and the mass of the principal structure at its location. Uh it's been existent since 2015 and I think this proposal is going to do
nothing to change that. It's not going to alter anybody's perception of this site. And finally, this is, as I said, this is not year round habitable habitable space. It's not intended to be so, but it does in fact count towards the F
calculation. So, what's what's the purpose of the F calculation? Well, one of the purposes is for what we just stated is you don't want these extra large homes, but also it's a way to regulate the intensity of land use, right? So you think about the intensity
of 500 square ft that's going to be used on a temporary seasonal basis. Um so I don't see a great deal of impact there. So I'm going to suggest to the board that I believe that this application does meet that standard uh for the
granting of a D4 variance. I think it's a very attractive upgrade to the site and uh the board should feel uh very comfortable in in giving us a positive review. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And just to kind of clarify, I know you you have the picture on page two um on
the bottom that this cabana is not visible from the roadway of hidden court, right? >> Yeah. I mean, you could you can never say it's invisible. You know, I I wouldn't want to say that, but in my mind, I can't imagine a scenario where you're going to see any portion of this
deanna from uh from hidden court. And again, you're you're identifying the the surrounding um land uses and the coverage that comes from the existing vegetation and uh
trees that are on our client's property. >> Yeah, significant vegetation all along the perimeter of the property. And uh if you look at the neighbors again, you have Lake Tan, you have that wooded area between Lake Tan uh and the property. I think a portion of that actually is on
the same track as the the Lake View um homes, Lake View would pan and then the active form use. So I mean it is in my mind a rather remote location. >> Thank you. >> All righty. We're going to have the
board ask um Tom >> just one quick one. Um, David, can you confirm that on your sheet two, the photo upper left? I think that's the best representation of you're looking right at where the
front of the cabana would be, >> right? I think I'm standing probably right at the edge of the pool patio, right? >> And I'm I'm pointing right at the property corner. I can't I'm looking uh right at the I guess southwestern property corner. Yes,
>> that that birch tree that's shown it looks like it's about a 6-in birch tree and you can see the the play set to the left. Yes, >> the birch tree is kind of midway through the cabana on the east side to be removed. It's kind of right along the building edge if you look at the site plan. So, the cabana would kind of start
at that birch tree and go to the right as you look at the photo just for orientation. That's helpful. >> Anything else, Tom? >> That's all I have. Thank you, >> Ed. Um, I'm going to certainly look for your input on this. I think the planner's testimony is very important,
>> particularly regarding this application because of the F issue. So, I'm really curious on your on your thoughts. >> Yes, absolutely. I was just going to ask a few questions first, please, with regard to the direct testimony that they offered. Um, you touched on the purposes of an F variance, um, as far as the bulk
and scale of a building, but it's also the intensity of the use. And I know you were comparing it to the neighborhood and the other size of homes in the neighborhood, but yet aren't those homes also on larger lots as well. >> Um, some of them are, some of them are not. >> Okay. >> Um,
>> did you find that they didn't comply with the F? >> I, you know, >> 39 was built before we had the F. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah, >> I didn't want to go through that exercise because uh I didn't want to foul up the calculation. I know there's a lot of nuances. >> Uh
>> uh but I will say this that it looks like uh number number two uh hidden court has a lot area of 97 acres. That's smaller than the subject property. Okay. >> Uh number three hidden court.97 acres
also that's smaller. uh 31 Okconors which is at the intersection of Okconor Lane and Hidden Court that's.92 acres. So no, the you know four of the five lots that I examined that are along
Hidden Court uh are actually smaller lot areas. It would seem more the purpose of you bringing that up was really the relationship of this residence, its size and mass to the neighborhood. Well, yeah, that the reason I brought it up is because I actually looked at some of the prior testimony in some of these other
FI F cases uh and that was a concern. I uh like what is the size of the building relative to the neighbors? Is this the largest house on the block and how does it compare? So, uh that's why I gave the board the benefit of that that analysis
because I I know it's come of the previous conversations. When you talk about the relationship to the master plan and some of the statements in the master plan, uh you talk about a relationship to the principal structure, but yet also you were also identifying that this is only going to be used
certain times of the year. But yet, isn't this part of the overall mass of the property regardless of when it's used? It's really the visual mass of structures on the property. I wouldn't say that exactly um because
you can't look at these uh you know in a vacuum. I mean, you have to understand if you have an F of 0.15 and the building is perched up injectically, you know, on a cliff, it's going to be pure much much larger. If you set back way, you know, away from the the street and
has landscaping in front of it, you're not going to see it as 0.15. It's probably going to see it as something else. And that's why I made that distinction. It's not part of the principal dwelling. It's back in the rear of the property where the general public is not going to detect that
additional 494 square ft. So certainly it's part of the it's part of the landscape but at at this remote location. >> But the the point you were making though as far as the seasonal use of facility, what was your reason for bringing that
up? It's really what I was seeing is maybe something that didn't go connected to your overall testimony was the fact that that was a seasonal use per se. It still though contributes to the visual mass on the property, but in relationship to the property itself, I
think you were talking about it its location, its proximity to the building or proximity to adjacent properties, things of that nature. Um, I guess I had a concern with regard to your point as far as it's only seasonal. Um, it's really still from an Fect something that
the board has to grapple with as far as the level of build building on the property. >> Right. So I'm I'm trying right the intensity of use right I was I was making I guess a point about uh what's the purpose of F and one purpose of course would be to have homes that are
not excessively large the other purpose is the F regulates intensity of use. So if you were to construct another bedroom for instance that were 500 that was 500 square ft that I think in my mind would be a greater intensity of use because we
occupied on a full-time basis. That's the distinction I was making. >> Thank you. Uh Mr. Chairman Joe just to inform the board I believe as the planner has provided testimony I believe all the case law that he's identified is applicable in this situation. Uh we do
look at not the particular suitability of the property. we look at whether or not the property and the surroundings can actually be something to be considered when considering the mass and scale of the structure. So, I think it was appropriate to bring up the discussion about the the adjacent
neighborhood as well as um the size and mass of the existing home in its relationship to the street. uh the proximity of or the location of where the actual accessory structure would be located is another important feature for the board to consider in their
deliberations. Um in addition to that the existing conditions such as the existing buffer conditions on the side property lines who is actually affected by this what might be the mediating uh or mitigating factors in the overall
site which is regarding the the location of the proposed mass and scale because this is an accessory structure. I think that's something the board can take a look at if you still feel though that the overall amount is too much for the property. That's something that I think the board can consider. What I think is
an important point that was brought up is in fact that the building coverage is not being exceeded. That's that's a thought especially with runoff and overbuilding of properties. Uh that's something to to take a look at. Uh another point that I found was uh something of interest to the board is is
figure number one which shows the the lot's relationship to the neighborhood. Uh I we can't be certain that Stokes Farm's always going to be there. um you know and that use is going to potentially go somewhere someday uh but they are conforming with the setback requirements. What I do find a
interesting point is its relationship to Lake Dep um that green space that's on that uh I guess that would be the westerly side of the property. Yeah. Um that green space I think is buffer area for the for the lake itself. So actually that is something the board can take a
look at as well um in relationship to the mass and scale of the building. Um, one of the things that I was talking about with the architect is the needed square footage of this building. Is it in fact um at a size that makes sense
for the property? Um, at a size that's needed for the use that's being proposed. I think that's something the board can look at as well. Um, uh, it's really a test of the the negative criteria in this instance and its impact
to that intent purpose of the ordinance. We did talk about the uh the purpose of a F requirement which is really the overall level of construction on a property from a bulk as well as an intensity of use as what was pointed
out. Um and is that too much for this property and its environments to support? That's something that the board should consider. So with that I would open it for any questions the board may have of me. >> No, it was very helpful. I appreciated that.
Um, I don't we can run through and if anybody has questions for you, they'll they'll double back. >> Yeah, Mr. I don't think we marked the edge report. Yeah, let's mark that. >> Um, I think >> B2B.
Yeah, Tom's B1. So, this would be B2. [Music] Mr. Chairman, can I ask a question? I I I almost don't want to ask it because I know we've grappled with this one in the past. I'm just looking at the definition of floor area and
they get to exclude 400 square ft of the garage. Correct. Because there's another provision which then goes on to say um this is talking about the garage not exceeding not exceeding in the area of
400 square ft whether attached or detached comma that are at or below basement level. The way you read that is you only get the exclusion if it's at or below basement level. But I think we've inter we've there's supposed to be an or there.
>> Yeah, I see that. Yeah. So because if it's at basement level then you exclude it all. >> Right. >> So the 400 only comes into play when it's at grade. So I first of all I want to make sure that that's how the board interprets it. I believe that is how we interpret it.
And if so to ask the applicant if they've taken that out of their number >> the 400 ft. >> Yeah. >> I guess that's an architect question or is that as an engineer question? I think actually remember we had this discussion on >> it comes up every year >> application and the SUR application
>> uh which we both had a F component Mark um >> yes I cannot believe we took that deduction >> so the garage >> so and if you recall it we were both on I think on both of those applications uh
I think the end result was we did net out the 400 square ft and and that was confirmed with Mr. Rush >> that the intent is to always net out the 400 square ft >> for garage space. >> I don't believe you did that on this
calculation. So maybe the difference too. >> If you do do that, can you do you know what the act the number would be? >> Yeah. >> Still be over but not as much. >> Yeah. It doesn't get us below the line
but it might be worth um >> whether or not if this gets approved or not just resubmit the calculation because we'll need that anyway for the record. >> Yeah. Well, I think yeah >> just to confirm >> calculate. Absolutely. >> Mhm. >> That's close to
>> said the existing business was 540 ft. >> Is that what I said? something like that. >> And it's got >> While he's doing that, we can continue to go through questions for the for the planner. Tom,
>> I have no questions. >> We just >> Okay. And and the truth is I was relying heavily on Ed's um >> commentary. Um I I will say again, I'm going repeat that. I'm very concerned about F. I have been been on this board for what going on 19 years now
>> and so um this is certainly something that's important to many members of the board. >> Um and because this is all the building with or without the garage included is already over the F, it may not be a pertinent question, but was there any
attempt to consider a smaller structure, which I think is part of what Ed was alluding to before. >> Well, I I think you heard the testimony of Mr. Scrow. >> I did. in terms of very clearly right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's your profession. So
>> you know he gave you the analysis of the bathrooms uh the powder room being six feet kind of like the minimum >> and then mirroring it on the other side and then the interior living area >> reduction would make it negative. It wouldn't be negative square footage out of it. But just curious.
>> No, I understand. And then the living area I think said 12 by 15 which is pretty much a small area. my wrong. I mean for living. >> Yeah. >> Um so >> certainly the size of the current family room standard
>> right it's not an oversized living room for it's appropriate size >> furniture. M okay Mark >> so okay so if we take out the form description the garage the existing.143 so that's believe that is probably very close to being improved again I'm going
to add some additional shed into that as well but the proposed F with that deduction would then be 1519 >> so yeah so you're going really back to that >> just to 0.15 >> um so what we're doing you previously
talked that the uh size of the home 8,23 8,238 subtract 400 from that. >> Yeah, >> but we don't we don't know that that was originally approved. That's what was built,
>> right? You don't know that that was >> Yeah, my recollection was it was approved with the conforming M. So I I did not date that deduction in my current calculation but previously you probably >> right but I wanted to make sure I didn't
misunderstand your comment when the house was built we you don't know that it was approved to exceed the F at that point there is testimony that he took liberties in
adding a very conservative approach where maybe at the time of approval and the submission of the plans. They didn't add every porch in every living area that I don't recall any property that I apologize was not my intent. I was just trying to be
conservative there, but obviously uh >> so subtracting the 400 square ft from the 8238. I didn't do the math. It's a 0.1519 >> 7838. You said total
>> we would have had total with the new area >> with the cabana. >> So we're back to a total exceedence closer to that 0011. >> It would have been.143 without the cabana. >> Okay.
>> Still over but not as over my concerns. I already said it. So >> I do and I think I know what Mr. Carlback testified and I'd like to summarize later, but >> Yep. >> And I and I appreciate and the clarification about it not being
the house, it being a property further back. It's the trees by the pool but by the by the lake. So >> yeah, >> this is an interesting one. >> My questions have been asked. Have they? [Music]
>> Did you ever play back there? >> You didn't break any windows. Give him time. >> Dirt biking back there. Okay. >> Okay. >> Illegal dirt biking. >> Only because I just heard a mention of a shed. Is there an existing shed on this
property? >> We have like a um things for the pool equipment. It's just a covered area that um I guess there photos.
>> No, it's not really anything. It's like [Applause] Yeah, it has like a top on it. Um, >> so it's basically a rubber made container. It's not really sharers in there. That's why.
>> So, it's not considered a shed. >> Main stuff. >> I thought you you're only allowed one way up there structure. >> You are. Yeah. better like right around here. I think that if that's the one that's in the photo in the top right on page two, I don't think that counts.
>> Top right. >> Oh, >> see that wall way back there? >> Yeah. Not really. >> Next to the red thing. >> Oh, those are the umbrellas. And that's also my garden. It's like the all those white poles. It's a a garden. It has
iron around it. >> Okay. temporary structure. >> Yes, >> that's all that's all I have. >> So, >> is what you just told us is it a pitched roof plastic or you know with doors on
it? >> It's like you said rubber made plastic. >> But does it have doors that open? >> Yes. >> How high is it? >> I made it. >> I don't No, I brought it into you. >> 6 feet.
>> I think we should just because this is a curious question, we should just confirm if this is it. Dean, if you want to take a look >> this one that you're looking at >> to the left of that this >> I'll show you >> cuz if it is, it's it looks like it's a little rubber chest.
>> It's like the sides of two garbage cans, right? >> That right there. If you look at the floaty on top of the pool, >> it's like the size of two garbage cans, right? >> Yeah. >> Is that it? >> Nonfixed temporary. >> It's a nonfixed temporary storage, I
think. Talking about worry about that. >> It's actually on a roof. >> Correct. Okay. >> All right. So, I I have two more things. And I I just want to be clear, you know, I'm I'm the new guy still on this.
>> You're not the You've been on this for like five years now. We haven't been that one. >> But I I I graduated from the kitty table, you know. >> Um >> if I put a shed on my property, that goes into the F. >> A real shed. Yes.
>> Okay. There's no seasonal use of that. Nobody lives in it. Nobody sits in it. I put stuff in it. Right. When you say seasonal use, we keep using that term like it's only going to be used for part of the year, but yet we're putting heat
in it, we're putting TV in it, we're putting a fireplace in it, and we're talking about maybe, and I know it's all a guess, but you can watch the Super Bowl out there, and the last time I checked that was in February. So, I don't understand what you mean by
seasonal. It sounds like it's for all four seasons. I think the intent was for again for the intensity of the use to say, "Hey, from May to September, yeah, we're going to use it." But >> and why do you need heat? Why do you need heat? >> But I'm saying it's going to be used
more used that more than not. And the other time of year, you keep it, >> you as Michael said, kind of keep it uh for temperature control. And it's not no one's going to live there. Listen, they don't build that kind of house to have someone living out in their cabash.
>> No, I'm not. I'm not. That wasn't the implication, but we we're indicating it's a partial use, but the partial use is going to be potentially all four seasons. And as kids grow, they want to be away from their parents. So, they're
going to be out there probably more than I'd rather live in the house. But yeah, um again, I think it's I get it. I understand that he's used it, but I don't think that's meant to be our not what we're hanging the hat on. It was more of, hey, it's not going to be it's
not a full time. And again, even yeah, if we're going to play a poker game, but nobody quote that. And uh or like again, watch the Super Bowl. It's not it's not going to be out there every night. That's the I think the intent of that statement. We just I don't want it to be
>> misguided in that area. >> I'm not watching it. You know why? >> No, but I understand the concern. I can imagine why. >> So, just to clarify, pick you back above. The fireplace is going to be ornamental like the U log at Christmas on the TV doesn't mean nothing.
>> So, that's all you're going to use the the fireplace for is something >> ambiance. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> I was going to go romantic, but this direction >> straightforward. a lot of mics tonight. >> No questions.
>> All righty. Um, >> the public for questions of the public. >> Yes, please. >> Dave, >> motion. >> Motion to open the meeting to the public for questions of the planner, Mr. Carlback. >> Second. >> Motion. Second. >> All in favor? >> I.
>> Okay. Anybody from the public have any questions for the planner, Mr. Carlback? >> Seeing none. >> Motion to close. >> Second. >> All in favor? Hi. >> Hi. >> All right. No other professionals. >> No other. >> Do you uh want to have any closing
statements? >> I need to hear from the public. >> I was going to open it up to We need to do that. But one before we do that, let's just clarify because I I heard two different things before and I and I was confused. Is it D1 or a D4? >> You said D4. It's a D4. >> It's a D4 FA far and a C variance for
the size. Actually again if we can if I can come back to that Dave >> because I don't >> you dispute that there's not a >> well personally I'm looking at if you're going to 54 2554E
it's a weird >> says an accessory building to be used as a garage shall not exceed 14 ft in height and shall not be greater than 400 square ft in area. Any other accessory building shall not exceed 14 feet in
height and shall not exceed 500 enclosed square feet, 750 roof square and 25 ft in length parallel to the side lap. >> Sorry, where are you reading from? >> 255-54
254E. I could say with confidence since I know very well the person who put that who wrote that that that was the intention of it >> that >> what you just described. >> Yeah. >> So we are 494
>> of enclosed square feet >> and 747 >> roofed square feet. >> Okay. >> If that's the case that means it's not a C. Right. >> Yeah. That's I mean we're right there but no obviously
>> that was done intentionally to be short of that. Um >> so as a D4 variance um only seven people can vote on this >> and they need five affirmative. So this is a >> challenging one. So I don't know again we're going to open
>> you know who the seven are. We're gonna we're going to open it up to the public for questions, but just something to consider based on the questions you heard tonight if there's anything you may want to come back to that might change. >> Comments, right? >> What's that? >> Or comments.
>> Yeah. So, um, in the meantime, let's open it up to the public one more time for any comments regarding the application. You can ask anything you want, including of the homeowner. Motion. >> Motion. Second. All >> in favor? Anybody from the public have
any comments regarding the application? >> Seeing none opposed. >> Yeah. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> Chairman, just in terms of the protocol for voting, I mean, you'll have deliberations. Board has nine regular members,
>> but because there's a D4 variance, two members, the class one and the class three members are ineligible to participate. And Councilman Boyds is the class three member. He's already sitting in the audience. The class one member, the mayor's designate, is absent. Okay.
>> So, seven regular members would have the first opportunity to vote. Okay. If any of those regular members are um absent, then the first alternate, the second altern What about the 25 ft in length?
255-54 E1. Yeah, >> it's over 25 ft in length. >> I need a cash. >> This is why we keep you around, Tom. >> That's a different story. >> What's the length of it? >> If you include the covered area, it's
30. >> 30. Yeah, >> that's good catch. I would ask a question on that. >> What's the length? >> I would I would argue that if you're talking about a continuous facade, it
would be 20 ft and then you had open air of 10 ft to a 12 in column. So that continuous wall should be >> I don't follow that. I'm sorry. I I see >> even if you don't include the shower,
you're still looking at >> 26 ft. >> So I I believe the ordinance say along the side. >> Yeah, it does. >> Right. 25 ft in length parallel to the side lot line. >> Yeah, correct. So that would be this facade, right? So this facade here is 18
ft plus 2 ft of solid facade. Then we have to use 10 ft to 12 pump. I'm simply hoping that uh in terms of trying to create I believe the spirit in terms of defining a length would be to try to uh
prevent something that was uninterrupted, solid and long. >> So you're saying it's 20 ft. That was the intent >> cause of that that it was 20 ft and then it's open with a with a single 12. Yeah, >> I did think about that. But it's in the same sentence where you're talking about
the enclosed spa space, the roof space and then it says 25 ft in length. So in my mind that includes the enclosed space and the roof space. And one could also argue that the longer wall is parallel which it's not but to the other to the
other lot line because because both are not parallel. One is >> so >> correct. So so therefore I think it does exceed that. >> I also >> I would suggest be on the safe side that the applicant seek the C variance. >> That's fine.
>> Yeah. If you get the D4 you're going to get the C. As I said rides on the coattails of the D4. I think so. >> If you don't make the D4, it's move. >> We would amend our application to include that request for area, but it is for
um length of building, right? >> All right. Thank you, Tom. >> Sure. >> Okay. So, who were the um >> I know who it is. >> We got the seven. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Well, first I want to know who the seven
are. Oh, it would be you. Uh, Mr. Ke, Mr. Ley, Mr. John, Mr. Ludith, Mr. Scalava, Mr. >> Okay. >> All righty. Any closing?
>> Yeah. Um, again, thank you for the time and hearing us out uh, and going beyond the anticipated a lotment. Again, obviously, I've been here several times and on several F applications. Uh, seen us at our best and worst.
>> Yeah. Uh the, you know, again, in thinking of what the purpose of the F ordinance is and and your certainly compliance or strict compliance or construction of it, uh you I look back at again that application we had at Five Parker Place. You know,
>> I was just thinking of that. >> Yeah. >> Every time I pass that street, I think of you and that application >> and uh so but I don't know. That's that's a scenario where you know what maybe I wasn't happy at the time but uh
the analysis you went through of hey you know you're going to build this house it was already the biggest house on the block and we wanted to make it only a little bit bigger but you know it was exacerbating that condition and you brought us back to little reality and said all right we'll let you build what
you had and I I think that's the analysis that both Dave discussed and and Mr. snikus of saying it's it's in relation to the neighborhood. Um that that that's what the ordinance is looking to control. You don't want these
monstrosities, big homes going into the neighborhoods, even though we're seeing that in town. Um but they should be within the character of the neighborhood. Um exceeding F is not, you know, shouldn't be the end
of the world. It's you got to look at it not in a vacuum of just looking at the numbers. look at it what what the effect is is there any effect I think you heard from our planner and even Mr. Snipers more carefully said it of uh hey look at
you got there's other mitigating factors uh is there the visibility uh is there what's the surrounding land uses what are the the coverage that you're getting from the natural vegetation you know what what is the detriment of it uh
don't just look at the number uh and we get it but look at who does it affect is there any effect if you look at the aerial photograph And again, these photographs that show, you honestly
can't see it from anywhere. Um, you can't I don't think you see it from in court. Certainly don't see it um from the farm uh or lake view. And I lived there and I
couldn't see that area. Uh can't see it from Park Avenue, the new development. Uh so here you have the benefit of beautiful structure that the family is going to be able to get to use. Uh and really got to balance that with what's
what's the negative impact other than getting over the fact it's a little bit of an increase of the F. Um, again, a home like this, that type of additional structure, uh, we don't think that there's really
any substantial detriment or negative impact to the neighborhood. I think that that's what the testimony plays out. I guess I would hope you would look at the positive benefits that the property and the family would experience uh as
opposed to just thinking hey we're exceeding F uh which we are but it's like you know 001 uh difference after we calculate everything and again as we discussed with Mr. Martin, you know, he
really went into like was very conservative about what he counted as a AR, right? So, he he just didn't want to leave anything out. So, we didn't have that question. But then that raises the questions like, "Oh my god, you've built it in exceedence." But again, it's been
there for 10 years. And we think this addition of a of a cabana that's really not going to be visible to anyone. Uh we'd ask that you uh act favorably upon the application. >> All righty. Thank you. Does anybody want
to make a motion? And keep in mind we did write down a few conditions. Somebody does vote in favor. >> Motion to consider the application. [Applause] >> Motion for approval. >> To approve with with the uh conditions, the stipulations. Yes.
>> Okay. Does anybody want to second that? >> Second. All right, five to two, right? Is that what we're looking for? >> Five out of seven. >> Okay, >> all right. So, um I think I've been
pretty vocal about how I feel about F um and and and also being the author of this particular uh zoning, you know, having created that, what the intent is of that. Um and candidly, I'm
very compelled to vote against it. Um but um I did take very seriously what Ed had said and your and your testimony, Mr. um Mr. Carlback. And um there's a lot of things in favor of it that
I will vote in favor of. Um and I and I doesn't mean anything because I know every every approval that we have if it gets approved tonight doesn't have an impact on another one. But I don't want the community to think that we're just going to approve F increases. U but
because of the fact that it's isolated, it's by the lake, it's by trees, it's in the back. Um it's it is beautiful and it's hidden. Uh I'm going to vote in favor. >> Well, Mr. Chairman, I couldn't have said it better myself. I do this this um
application does come with some baggage. is not as clean as I would have liked it to have been, but I think based on the mitigating circumstances here and the location, uh, I'm also going to vote affirmatively. >> Mr. Ali,
>> I got invited to the Super Bowl party, so I'm going to vote yes. >> Don't talk like that. >> Get me very nervous, >> Mr. D. >> Uh, yes. Well, Luda. >> Yes.
Fava. >> Well, it's already won. Um, I think the property allows for it, but I am troubled how because of the size of the property that the numbers don't mean as much. So,
I I'll vote yes. >> You could have voted no if you wanted to. >> I could have. I could have. Expected. Yeah, I would no I was going but it it is invisible now it's you know down the road if something changes you know with
Stokes and >> I will have a condition about the buffering remaining in place. [Applause] >> So I said yes. >> Yes. >> Congratulations. >> All right. Thank you so much everyone.
Appreciate it. Thanks for the extra time. [Music] >> It's going to be his high school hangout. >> You said it basically said >> because because the the property can't
accomplish it really if this was in some other solution all the time after the fact or if it was to be Sounds good when you're >> I will say that >> until you
>> see I can be I can actually be convinced. >> Yes. >> So there's hope for me yet. >> And you even wrote it. >> I wrote it. >> Yeah. >> What are we doing? >> Um what do we normally do? >> How many
>> How many witnesses? Yeah, we usually don't go past what 10:30. >> Yeah, we're going to try to stick to that if that's okay. I mean, you're the fourth applicant and you were added to us at the very last moment. >> So, um I hope you can appreciate >> me to write the stretch or anything.
>> Um does anybody want to do that? Yeah, I've seen you how long you going to say yes. It'll be 10 minutes and 10 minutes. >> That's good. That's good. >> We can do five >> started. Good. >> My name is Charles Revoli. I'm an
attorney with the law firm of VD Pavano on behalf of the applicant NIS which is at 380 Altap Pan Road. This is a D1 variance to put in a bridal salon which is called uh pin it up. Post it and pin
it up. Um your ordinance does not permit beauty parsers as a home occupation. This is not really a beauty parlor. the witness will testify at it's a bridal salon. It's only open a few days a week and it's limited in the number of uh
appointments. So, it's not like a beauty collar, but the uh zoning official indicated that, you know, there was a beauty collar there and they're not permitted as a whole. >> Just on that issue, you're not appealing that decision. You're seeking a D1. >> Correct. We're just a straight D1. It's
not. I think once you get the testimony, that's the most simple and straightforward way to go ahead and we don't have to say is the decision right, is the decision wrong. Here we are. You're going to hear the facts of the case. I think you'll see quite clearly that it's appropriate as a whole. All right. The other good news is is you can
all put down your calculators. We're not going to talk any math, any measurements or anything like this because it's only a use variance. Um, we're not making a site plan at this time. the uh ideas of the applicant are still evolving with regard to landscaping and things like that. So really today is just a use
fairance application. We submitted with our application architectural plans. I would say that you view them as concept plan. So um you know again the existing structure is a garage. It's opensided. It's rather old and the plan will be ultimately this garage will
be enclosed. Facilities will be added to it. It'll be upgraded. it'll be rehabilitated. So one of the tests with regard to these varants is have you rehabilitated the property more power. So it's a it's a positive factor with
regard to the wells. Okay. Um clearly if any point in time we have to come back with regard to a site plan we'll certainly be willing to do so. Um you're going to hear from the applicant herself about what her business is and then you're going to hear from professional planner Katherine Gregory. And with
that, we'll just call our first witness. >> Are we marking anything? >> Nothing as long as the application is considered part of the record. >> Yeah, that doesn't need to be marked. >> I don't need to mark anything. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, M. >> You raise your right hand, please. And I'm going to swear our planner and
engineer again. You swear or affirm that the testimony will give us shall be truth. I do. Let the record reflect that the planner and engineer have been sworn. Could we have your full name, please? >> Cynthia Nis. >> Cynthia Nis. Okay, Miss Alice, give us a little bit of your background, please.
>> Sure. Um, I've had my businesses ended up in Pout and Lulu Salon, which is currently located in Harrington Park for the last 15 years. Uh, when I moved to Ultan and found this location and saw that it was previously being used by a tree service company, I thought, what
better way than to not have to be at the current location I had and to bring everything onto my home property. >> Let me pause you for a second. what you said a tree service company. Tell the board the prior use. >> Sure. So, previous to me, uh the property was used for two different tree
service companies as well as a landscaping company. Um we would only be looking to uh do hair and makeup, so very quiet. Um and everything is hidden. So, if anybody's not familiar with the property or you haven't viewed the survey yet, the house is located at the
front of the property. You go all the way down the driveway and located at the back of the property is a garage with an attached carport. All that we are looking to do is enclose that existing carport. We are not going up, we are not going out, we are using the existing footprint. All parking for clients can
be on the property itself. We will not need any street parking to be utilized. Um, and that's due to the way that our appointment structure is set up. Most of our appointments are on the longer side, so 2 to four hours per appointment. Uh, we only have two people working there. So, at any given time, there's really
only going to be two employees and two clients. Uh, we operate four days a week. We are closed Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. We don't have any evening hours unless an appointment runs over a little bit, say 6:00 to 6:30 p.m., but everything would be done um by that
time. Uh, in terms of the bridal portion of the business, over 90% of our weddings that we do, and we roughly do about 200 a year, are done on the premise of wherever we're going. So, call it a hotel room, the venue that we're traveling to, or somebody's house.
I'm just looking to create a space where some of these venues don't actually have accessible bridal sweep, and or if they do, they don't allow you access to them until 10 or 11:00 in the morning. By that time, you need to be halfway through hair and makeup so that you're ready for your photos for your
photographer. So, at least for from my standpoint about the company, I can offer my clients an additional space that they could potentially get ready. Those appointments last roughly four hours. All of those people would be dropped off via car service, whether that's an Uber, a lift, um a limo,
whatever you call it. Nobody will be driving themselves, and then they will get picked up. And those services are only going to be offered on Fridays and Saturdays as typically there's not never, but there's really not a lot of weddings during the week. Um there will be no no noise. Uh, in terms of
lighting, the only lighting that will be there is what's obviously needed just for safety when it gets dark, but nothing um intrusive to any of the neighbors as it stands currently. We are totally enclosed with um trees and whatnot. And uh but right now, it still
looks very much like a tree service yard. It will not by the time I am done with it. I want to make it a place for not only brides but you know our NBOT senior girls to come get their hair and makeup done for prom and also have a really lovely place that they can take photos.
>> Let me just because you said a lot there and I want to just break it down a little bit. Sure. >> So again, although you're not a beauty parlor and the vision of a beauty parlor is again that there's a whole bunch of folks there waiting their turn. I want you to indicate clearly to the board the
distinction between a beauty parlor and what you're going to have. You're going to have only one woman or two women and it's going to take about 4 hours to do their hair and make sure it's like a mother and the mother of the bride and the bride. >> There there there might be a couple might be four girls or whatever, but our
whole time frame for those appointments takes about four hours. It's not just about hair and makeup. It's about actually giving them an experience. So, um I don't know. It's maybe been a while since anybody's been on a wedding day. But a lot of times >> people have um you know food. So if they
want to bring their food to be able to heat up so that they can eat while we're doing their hair and makeup, we're just creating this atmosphere really relaxed morning. Um and those appointments are on the longer side. So even if somebody was to come in and get their hair colored, you're on average looking at 2 to three hours. We are by appointment
only. I would say the major difference to a quote unquote normal hair salon is that they're on a storefront and they're kind of relying on walk-in business. I am lucky enough that I've been in business for 15 years and I don't need a sign. I don't need anything like that. We are booked out and it is strictly
word of mouth and the existing clientele that we've had for the last 15 years. >> Okay. I just want to make that point too. This is not you're not in need. This isn't the first time. You've been in business for 15 years. Correct. So when you say things about an appointment will last 4 hours that is based on your
15 years experience. Okay. When you speak about the number of people that will come to the site being again the the bride and the mother bride or whatever. You speak from experience on that point. >> Okay. Very good. Thank you. No further questions for this witness. >> Okay. Um why don't we start down at that
end as we usually do? >> Sure. >> Uh I I have no issue with with the use. um really don't have an opinion on whether it it should have been determined as an approved use or not, but my biggest concern is
we're not really doing a site plan approval at this point. Um but there are certain improvements that probably need to be made. Uh for example, like security lighting you mentioned and that just it's it's a slippery slope like when does it become a site plan
application? My my fear is and what I envision is you start making improvements and they might be wonderful improvements for the property, but a neighbor could take the position that all these things are changing over there. There was never an application
made. How was I? I never got notice of it. How did this happen? So, that's my concern. >> Do you want me to answer that? >> I hope somebody can. Somebody needs to. >> Okay. So, we are currently completely enclosed. Like, you can't even see into
the property from any neighbor that we have right now. So, I don't >> I drove up there today. That was me, by the way, driving through your yard. >> Oh, I didn't even know. I didn't even see I didn't even see you. So, everything everything is closed in. Nobody can Nobody can see us. Um, so I
don't know what in terms of like there would just be enough lighting in the driveway like how the flood light comes on when somebody drives down just so it's not pitch black, but nothing crazy. I wouldn't want anything, you know, shining into my house. Therefore, I want to be a good neighbor and especially a good business owner. And I want to make
sure I'm doing the same for everybody around. >> And a homeowner could do the same thing. A homeowner could decide they need more security lighting and just put it up. The problem is now we have a commercial use. Some of those same things are going to happen without any site plan approval. >> Can I also just say it's not necessarily
I wouldn't want call it security lighting. It would just be enough lighting so people can just see what they're doing. And there already is existing lighting back there. Um, but like the driveway is not lit up with more than just a flood light. So maybe we have to put one more flood light just where it doesn't, you know, reach right
now. But I'm not looking to go over and above even what's existing right now that we have. >> And again, it they might be wonderful improvements. My my concern is really the catch22 about when does it become a site plan application. >> Sure. >> Well, let me make a suggestion.
again I mean she's entitled to basically have what any homework would have without lights right or whatever uh if it comes to aing or things like that I think we can stipulate that you know we will come back with site plan if there's going to be changing pvious to
impervious uh or there's anything that outside of anything that would be normally viewed as being residential I mean we just don't see that happen it's not the intent here but if there was going to be something that would fundamentally change I have no problem with repres presentation in the res or
you know in the resolution and I'll I'll think paving might be the first thing if we're doing drainage or paving or anything like that that's the thing that would typically generate >> paving parking handicap accessibility drainage lighting I mean you can >> okay well again I mean the lighting we
discussed there's not going to be any lighting beyond >> lighting will be limited as to what a single family homeowner could put in >> so but I but I want to focus back on something Tom said before that is Is it now a commercial property?
>> Will it become a commercial? It becomes a commercial property. >> Is it subject to different regulations? >> Let me >> I don't know the answer to that. >> Well, we're going to propose on it. You allow home occupations. We're here because we are a home occupation. Uh but
your home occupation excludes beauty parlors. And it seemed more straightforward to come in and say, "We're not really a beauty parlor. We're brought us long. We're going to tell you what we're doing, but we really do fit in with the definition of a home occupation. The one other way we don't fit in with the definition of a home
occupation because I think we're limited to one employee and it's testimony that there's two employees. But if we were a home occupation, we could do all this as a matter of right, right? I mean, you have home occupations in your community and you're not viewing them as a
business with regard to their lighting or their sight or anything else because it is a home, but it happens to have an office attached to what they're doing. I think what I'm proposing is probably technically more than we would need to do. But I'm willing to say, listen, I know the only I know at some point in
time the lot's going to be improved. And if we do any such thing as paving, drainage, uh, striping or anything like that, we'll come back in and do a site plan. >> And I, you know, although this is a use variance only, I would, I would have that, I would certainly agree to that
type of condition in your res. >> What is the closest home occupation that we do allow? In your opinion, >> your home occupations, [Applause] >> I think there are professional services that are allowed, art studio, dress making.
>> Here you go. This is um home occupation definitions. >> And so it indicates customarily carried out in a dwelling unit, uh a family member, incidental use of dwelling unit. And then it goes through some more details. Um,
>> they talk about an art studio or dress making, >> right? Art, >> professional office, teaching, musical instruction. >> Here we go. Professional office or studio of a physician, surgeon, dentist, doctor, lawyer, architect, artist, realtor, insurance agent, notary public, musician, engineer, account, or
contractor. So, we are certainly less intense than a physician, a dentist, a doctor, a lawyer, a realtor. Uh, I'm going to buy a table that come to a hole. >> You're saying a dentist falls into that?
>> Sorry. >> A dentist falls into that. >> A dentist. Have you had a dental practice in your house? >> Okay. So, again, and I skipped some just to make it short, but physician, surgeon. I don't know if you want to s [Music]
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