you know, my peg 200, you know, >> in compliance with the open public meetings law, notification of this meeting has been sent to our official newspapers and other publications circulated in the Burough Volt Pan and notice has been posted on the Bulletin board at Burrow Hall. Please note, all
meetings are videotaped and posted on the website. Fire exits are located at the main entrance to the council chambers and in the rear of the council chambers. Missouri, please stand and salute the flag. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the
republic for it stands one nation with liberty and justice for all. All right. >> Here >> Marte >> here. >> Councilman Boyd >> here. >> Mr. >> Here, Mr.
>> Here, Mr. Deine >> here. Mr. >> Zarian, Mr. Kramer >> here, >> Mr. Pazelli All right. Um, anybody make a motion to open the meetings to the public for non agenda items? >> Motion to open. >> Second.
>> All in favor? >> Seeing none >> truly close. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Environmental commission report here. >> I love that. >> Council liaison report. We have two of
those. The >> I'll go quickly. >> All right. >> All right. So, our reorg meeting will be on January 5th. Our lighting uh tree lighting happened last Friday. It was very well attended. I heard from the people over at the uh
laundry um dry cleaner that it was excellent. And uh Santa will be riding. I think we expect to see him driving around riding around town on December 14th for anybody that's watching at home on TV. Um, our budget process has started and
we're meeting with our auditor on Thursday, December 18th. So, that's happening. And then, uh, the track tax appraiser is still out and about town and promises to be pretty much finished
the first quarter of next year. And that concludes my report. >> Is he behind schedule on that? Cuz we all got those letters, I think, back in the summer, right? I I haven't heard that he's >> okay >> behind schedule. >> He's doing also residential and commercial property.
>> Interesting. I think there's a couple. >> Okay. >> Um >> I don't know. Has he been in your neighborhood? >> He's been to my house already. >> He's been to my house. Yes. >> Yeah. >> So I think he's on schedule. >> Yeah. Pretty sure my wife spoke to him. So
>> I think there's more one more. >> Anything else? >> That is it. All right. We all received the construction official report, bioengineer report. There's no borrow engineer tonight. Financial secretary report. >> There is no financial report to present tonight.
>> Awesome. I mean, for those people that are getting paid, I feel bad, but there's some uh new business. There's an ordinance which we were talking about. Um, so who's prepared to discuss this ordinance with us?
I have some input of information because I've had a similar situation on other town. >> Please do that because I've asked some questions and I haven't gotten any answers. >> In your residential zones, you don't prohibit boarding houses, >> right? That's the starting point.
>> Right. Okay. In one of my towns, there was an application to the Department of Community Affairs, which is the state agency that regulates boarding houses, to get a license for a boarding house in the form of a CSLR, cooperative sober
living residents, which provides residential shelter for recovering alcoholics and people with drug addiction. You can imagine how a single family neighborhood reacts to that. Particularly when a particular house in
question was sold for 2.5 million. It was a nice neighborhood. >> Sure. >> Fortunately, this town had a provision in our ordinance to prohibit boarding houses which means that if the CSLR wanted to get an approval not only from the state but from the municipality,
they have to go for a D1. >> Okay, that's the genesis of this. When I heard from Jen about the CSLR letter, she sent it to me. I immediately called her. I think Kana might have spoken to you on one occasion. >> Yes.
>> Um and my recommendation is to amend the ordinance. It's worked in my other town so far. That doesn't mean they could come in and get a variance, >> right? >> But it makes it crystal clear that that use is not permitted.
>> And it remind me of the letter. Um I do remember there was some discussion about it I think at our last meeting. >> So two months ago. >> So the building department received a letter from the state >> stating that the owner applied
>> after speaking with Robert Kenny from the state, >> right? >> It wasn't the owner that I believe applied. I believe it was >> their tenant >> that he that the owner is renting to. So they're >> regardless they still need approval. Okay.
>> And uh in my situation um I happen to live in a town where there's a curtain. The people on the street they hire DD Padavano. >> Yeah, I bet. >> Jay Lamb. >> I have to tell you what they have spent for attorneys.
>> Um they had a septic engineer involved, a planner, and there was not even any local here. They were just >> ready to pounce. Literally, I would get a phone call or an email from the attorney representative neighbors several times a week all through the
spring summer up until last week and there's nothing pending. >> The application has been withdrawn at the DCA for this use. >> Our goal is to approve an appropriate amendment which I don't think we got because Bob Rush had some comments about >> What were his comments?
>> I'm looking it up. I can't find it. >> You know, >> you don't act tonight. the mayor. >> That's why we want to >> we have a 35day window and you're gonna lose it >> because I think his commentary I'm drawing on really faulty memory was that boarding houses using that term is just
a little too broad of a statement. >> It's not too broad because the state has regulation about boarding houses. They define them. >> According to Robert Kenny, he said that they take over the property. >> They do. They regulate >> once they're approved. >> They regulate. We received in this town
a letter from Mr. Kenny's predecessor. and I forget his name, but I have his letter in the file that they were coming to take the building department files for this property. Now, it never happened because the application ultimately got withdrawn, but there's
been issues about a septic system. I mean, that's obviously not something you would have to be involved in because you sew it, but uh so this is what Anna sent me. Our zoning officer reviewed the introduction uh sorry our zoning officer reviewed the
introduced ordinance and expressed concern that the current language may be too vague attached to state statute blah blah blah blah blah. Maybe we should provide a more specific description of the types of uses. >> No intended to be excluded. >> Don't do that. Don't keep it simple
>> to make sure that the ordinance is clear and not subject to >> boarding houses are defined in state regulation and they're regulated by the DCA. So, let me let me ask this just because she actually proposed something in her email. >> Well, nobody sent me anything. >> I I understand. >> Trust me, the lack of responsiveness on
this has got me pissed off right now. You can put that on the record. Okay. This is an important This is something important that we have to deal with. And the fact that nobody has taken it seriously enough to respond appropriately is just not acceptable. >> Well, Juan took it seriously cuz he called me. >> Well, that's great.
>> Had a long conversation. Anna certainly took it seriously because she sent over this is what she wrote. She said then you can take a look at what's there in terms of proposal. She said boarding houses including but not limited to transitional living arrangements, halfway houses, recovery
residences and similar uses shall not be considered a one family dwelling for the purpose of this ordinance and are prohibited in residential districts. >> So I want to add a few words. >> Just wanted to add a few words. So, why don't we pull the board on that and then
vote? >> Can you just give it to yourself? >> Sure. It's um boarding houses including but not limited to >> Okay. >> transitional living arrangements.
>> Okay. comma halfway houses. Okay. Comma recovery residences. Okay. Comma and similar uses and then it shall not be considered a one family dwelling for the purposes of this ordinance and are prohibited in residential districts. >> One family dwelling.
>> Yeah. Okay, >> let's run around the table. >> They're all residential districts >> in uh Oops, just lost it. >> This is in residential districts. >> Residential districts. >> All right, let's run around. Let's run around the table.
>> I have a question. Bob, you said a rental, somebody that's renting the house applied for this >> in my town. >> Oh, in your town. So in our town, it is it the owner that applied or a renter?
>> So a renter can take away a house basically from the owner. But >> depends on what the Well, the owner is still the owner. Depends on what the lease allows the tenant to do. That's governed by the lease. >> No, but you said if the state approves it, they take over the house. >> They take over the the state take over
the regulation for use purposes, >> right? your local building department will not be involved in regulating that property. >> So a person with a lease can in essence if the lease is not >> strong enough >> that's up to the landlord. I mean the
landlord what he put in >> it's really weird. >> Anybody we run down the Anybody have any comments other than that was a good question. >> I'm in full agreement with >> Okay. Everybody else on this side? >> Yeah, I'm I'm good. I feel like the
wording it's fine, but I feel like we're getting in the weeds and then we get pulled out of the weeds by saying but not limited to. So, you know what I'm saying? Like this, this, and this, but we're not limiting to this where I mean, I don't think >> I'm okay with it. I don't think it really matters. >> It won't matter. I just want I don't want to make sure we don't get back to
you. >> Unfortunately, we didn't get a response to >> to Bob's comment. So, this was suggested by Anna. It seemed reasonable. >> No, just But you're right. I mean I I don't know if you know based on that concern >> I'm okay with it. >> It's better than not having anything.
>> The important thing is you prohibit boarding houses >> 100%. >> Because that's what this use is considered and there's no question that's what the correspondent said the state contacted the burrow or the building department said we have an
application for CSLR in your town. We're taking over the regulation of the pool. It's interesting because you know like a lot of us look at boarding houses as a term of art, right? But it's actually probably a specific thing in the state, you know, in terms of what it actually means. >> I never looked at it that way and I do
and I deal with DCA all the time. >> They have a division into DCA for boarding. >> Yeah. Interesting. >> It sounds like an anacronism. >> Right. Exactly. Right. It sounds like it's the 1930s. It's a you know, and and it's like a Laurel and Hardy movie and they're they're in a boarding house. >> Exactly. Yeah.
>> Tom and V. >> Uh, no. Oh, I'm in agreement with the wording the side of the room. Come on board with our enthusiasm. >> Okay. I really enthusiast enthusiastically support. There you go.
That's what I need from the vice chair. Ditto. Uh I'm on board with it. However, I am curious if certain things like multifamily housing, not single family housing should be added. I'm curious. I
mean, I would defer to our council's advice on the wording, but >> well, multif family housing is in a residential district for it in residential districts. >> And my next question is, what about if a overlay zone was to be created in some
forthcoming new work that we're doing in town that allows for office and residential housing above? >> It's still a residential zone, >> an overlay with a res. It's a office with an overlay residential. So, as long as it says residential, it's
>> I think so. But you're really not going to get this kind of a use, it's going to be in a house. >> That's where CSLRs go. Okay. >> I didn't know a lot about CSLRs until last spring. I got a call on a Sunday
morning in early April. >> Okay. So, I can't think of anything else. >> Thank you. >> I had same concerns you had. Uh so this is only applying for single family houses or for for changing the language to residential.
>> You wouldn't cover anything in a residential zone. >> It's basically any boarding house in any residential zone. >> Let me ask a single dwelling unit and a CSLR is not an apartment because you always have 10 or 15 people living there.
>> So can a boarding house be put in a commercial zone if that if it doesn't say that? >> No. because the residential use is not permitted in commercial one use >> that's come from >> and just not that it really matters the numbers I heard that the
less or gets on this type of a use like 9k is an an occupant >> up yes I I'm up >> further comments >> my only question is what exactly is transitional living I've I've never
actually I've never heard that term. >> I have no idea. I'd have to look in the definition book that Moscowitz has published. >> And is that something that we'd have to add to the definitions? I'm looking at it from >> the engineering side. If I'm doing something for a private client and I'm
looking at, you know, looking at the ordinance, I'm like, well, what, you know, halfway house, I think they should all be defined, but I think we know what a halfway house is. Recovery res. I have no idea what transitional living is. I I suspect that it's just transitioning into >> society. >> Hey, right. You're you're you're done
with living here. Now you can go on. >> Yeah. But I think jail, >> Mr. Rian said, I think kind of covers the whole >> Yeah. >> Well, Charlie's got a definition. >> So, transitional living provides temporary supportive housing for people
needing to move from homelessness, crisis, or treatment to permanent independent living. >> They're kind of all the same. I just question things another term >> you asked my question about whether
boarding houses are commercial >> and I think Nikki's point that's worthy but not limited to >> help >> because you know in a few years they'll come up with a new term >> that defines some other type of living
arrangement and we want to be able to protect the ordinance >> and the ordinance in my town was not as descriptive because it was a very old ordinance simply said porting houses are prohibited period one sense and it worked well so far. fun.
>> I think that's part of why it might be vague to Bob, which is he may be thinking it the way we were thinking of it, that it's like more of a term of art than it is actually a a DCA mandated. >> There's a DCA department. >> Interesting. All right. So, with that, what are we supposed to do? We're supposed to
>> a motion to recommend to the mayor and council adoption that the uh ordinance is consistent with the master plan. It promotes the goal of the master plan to protect residential neighborhoods. And is that a roll call or is that just a >> a motion? The second roll call. >> Okay. >> Nine people can vote.
>> Anybody want to make a motion? >> Make a motion. >> Second. >> And a motion is what he just said. >> Yes. >> All right. Let's do a roll call. >> Majio. >> Absolutely. >> Yes. >> Mr. Keel. >> Yes. >> Mr. >> Yes. >> Mr. J.
>> Yes. >> Councilman Mor. >> Yes. >> Counc. >> Yes. >> M. Yes. Mr. Scott Mafava. >> Yes. >> Mr. Mr. Dean. >> Yes. >> Mr. Kramer. >> Yes. >> Mr. Peter. >> Yes.
>> All right. Circle back. >> People on Bush know that this is going on. >> Good question. That's part of why I was asking the question. What drove this? Like, you know, who knows about this? >> Anybody know? >> I know. I know of one family
>> that addressed issues. >> One family >> and they're probably concerned that I'm in my town. They raised thousands and thousands of dollars. >> Can you give a little more detail on that? Because that's the first I'm hearing bush. >> You want me to give you detail on what
specifically? >> No, I heard bush. I didn't hear >> I wouldn't get too detailed on this because they may come before the board. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And and this is and this is recorded, >> right? >> Pay attention. >> All right. I want to circle back to
environmental environmental commission report. Dave, do you have anything? Uh, I think everything I reported was in the November planning board meeting. We did not have a meeting in December and we'll resume again the third Wednesday of
the holiday. Excellent. All right, let's keep going. Any old business? Any communications? No resolutions? And we have an application that's been uh moved till January 14th. I'm assuming
based on the crowd, everybody was probably notified. >> Just going over the meeting dates going forward for 2026. >> Sure. >> So we'll still keep it the second Wednesday of every month at 7 o'clock. >> Sure. >> Everybody good with that? >> Yep. >> Do we need to vote on that or no?
>> Yeah. Well, >> we'll vote on in January. >> January. >> Yeah. But >> they just asked us to discuss so that they had a heads up for it. Um, what else do we have by the way for the
January meeting? Obviously the reorg >> the reorg will have 93 old man with pride trust and sed bush if she needs to be done. >> Is that the one? >> The mother daughter.
>> Oh yeah. >> No, it's the same one. Okay. >> That was October, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I believe she was in October. She didn't come in November. November now. >> Okay. 20 minutes. Charles. >> Yeah.
>> Um question. >> Yes, sir. >> On 93 Old Pan Road. >> Yep. >> From what I see in the plans and what I've read. >> Mike, we shouldn't talk about it. >> Oh, okay. >> Because it's a public hearing and >> Oh, really can't talk about it now. >> Okay. >> Sorry.
>> No, it's all right. No. >> There. All right. Um, anybody want to make an a motion to open the meeting to the public? >> Motion. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Seeing none. >> Motion or closed? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I.
>> Anything else before we adjourn? >> Merry Christmas. >> Just a question. Uh, the master plan revisions for 2026. >> What a great question. I wish I knew the answer to that. Um, John is retired. Our but he said he was going to work on that. Our planner showed up for about
three minutes and left. >> Dave, I can speak from experience. They're overwhelmed with this affordable housing stuff. >> Yeah, this is unbelievable. It is absolutely >> Are we going to get uh are we going to push it off a year or county push it off a year? You have to ask me.
>> I think we can push off the master plan. It's it's the stuff associated with the housing that we can't >> everything has to be done by you. >> He was he was John was linking the two for us kind of do like two for one because it was related to it. We were doing this thing with the overlay zones. So I don't know is it worth reaching out
to John and Ed and just asking them. I could do that. >> But housing is priority. >> It's you have no idea what local government >> John's not working on right John. What is John doing for us? >> John, I thought he did. >> No, I know. But he said he was going to finish up the master plan for us.
>> He was gonna finish up the affordable housing. >> He was going to do the housing also. >> I'm not sure about the master plan, but I thought the email said >> All right. So, >> part time with them. >> I will uh I'll reach out to him, Dave. Thanks for reminding us. Sorry. And the
conversation I've had with the mayor, uh I I thought he was going to uh create a, you know, committee to look at some of the issues in the master plan and he did and and he told me I could not be on it, which was fine with me, but
>> he did. There was a committee. We met a couple of times. >> Um and that was enough information for John to do what he needed to do. Okay. >> Honestly, I haven't seen a lot of
progress on the man. >> John retired. >> John retired about three months ago, maybe four. >> Wow. >> About 3 months ago. >> Yeah. >> I did not know that. >> And he was moving slow. >> Congratulations. >> Well, he thought he a meeting so he
could announce it to everybody, but >> just retired. What was that, Jen? >> He said that he was going to come to a meeting and kind of announce it. >> Yeah. And I think we canceled the meeting, right? That was the November That was the November meeting, right?
>> Went out the side door. A good guy. >> So should have did that. >> We have to put that in the minutes. Let him surprise us one day. Do >> we have a replacement? >> Right now, Ed is partner, but I don't know if Ed's the permanent. Do we not know that?
>> No, he's not or no, we don't know. >> We haven't given any information yet. Well, >> I did have a question since Dave brought up the master plan and the housing. John had talked about something with
bystate plaza that helped um plan for affordable housing. Do we know if he worked on that? It was going to be a redesign of the downtown area. So, he was going to work on that as part of the master plan
process, but I I don't recall where he left off on that because it definitely a design is probably too strong of a word. He was looking at really just providing some standards regarding building setbacks. Um maybe there might have been some design criteria he was going to
borrow from another town if I recall. Nikki, what do you remember? >> Yeah. Um, I know I missed one meeting, but it was just giving us some guidance. He's going to have something else. >> Yeah. And and you know, I'm trying to be nice, but the truth is he didn't do
anything for the last four or five months on it. >> He was focused on the affordable housing and fairness and I and I and I think he was confident he was retiring. So, >> Charlie, I agree with you on that. Not much progress was made in my eyes either. And I think we it's about time now that we have a little bit of
direction. Our mayor met with them. I think they're getting to a conclusion. So, we'll have more guidance on what we really need to create and where we need to create it for that that should be brought to uh the planning board maybe in the next meeting, but it's a little premature to talk about what the mayor
had that in that conversation. >> Should we ask for that update for the next meeting? We should ask for that update and I think we should try to set up another little master plan meeting between now and then with the uh committee.
One last question about this. With John retiring and us not getting any direction on who is replacing him, is this an opportunity for us to look into who a new planner might be for us if they're not going to propose somebody to us? meaning from Burgess. >> Either Burgess or put out an R.
>> You have the right to do that. >> We have the right to do that. Um why don't I make a phone call to Burgess and find out what their intention is? Why don't we do that? Okay. >> Okay. I'll I'll take that on. >> Very good. >> What's Sean Moransky doing?
>> He's with Lang. >> He's what? >> He's with Langan. >> That's recent, too, cuz he was somewhere else, right? >> He went He left here. He went to Matrix New World. He's been with Langan about three or four years now. >> Is that >> I can reach out to him if you
>> Yeah. I thought he did an excellent job. >> Yes, he did when he was with us. >> That Oh, I'm sorry. >> has planners as my colleague is My colleague is >> I have Darlene Green in one of my
houses. Planners. >> You want Darlene Green? >> Darlene is great. >> Yeah. Okay. We work together. I deal with Langan and the city. They're they're they're excellent. >> We know that Sean went through some >> highly personal.
>> Yeah, that was fast stuff. >> Yeah, that's I I see his updates on LinkedIn. >> All right. Suggesting that we find >> I'm not suggesting as so much as I feel like we haven't gotten any direction from them and and if we're an important enough client for them, they would give
us direction. >> Mhm. And if they don't have an answer, then maybe we should have a further conversation in January about if we should put it out as an RFP specific. >> So at the very least, I'll have an answer of what their direction is in January. >> So small, >> you know, we may need to put out an RFP
like you said. So small. >> Um I would say that since Shawn doesn't work for >> Burgess anymore, it's probably not the right person to talk to, right? Because he's with Langman. That would be >> Nobody else has. >> We would have to definitely RFP, >> right? >> We couldn't just give them a contract.
>> Very nice. >> Yeah. >> All right. Good, good conversation. >> I'll reach out to John Zbo and and probably Ed about the PL master plan specifically and that affordable housing status. You'll reach out to them about their plans. >> All right. Anybody else have anything
before we adjourn? Good conversation. Anybody want to make a motion to adjurnn? >> Motion to adjurnn. All in favor? >> Everybody, merry Christmas, happy new year, happy Hanukkah, everything you celebrate.