Right. Right. >> All right. So, >> none of these applications are relevant. >> Yeah. You got a pen that works. >> Hold on. Handsome. Let me see if I have another one.
killing me here. >> In compliance with the open public meetings law, notification of this meeting has been sent to our official newspapers and other publications cert circulated in the borapan and notice has been posted on the bulletin board of borrow. Please note all meetings are
videotaped and posted on the website. Fire exits are located at the main entrance of the council chambers and in the rear of the council chambers. Everybody please stand to salute the flag to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it
stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. >> All right, roll call. >> Mr. Majio >> present. >> Mr. Mary. >> Oh boy. All right. >> Mr. Ke >> here. >> Mr. Ley >> here. >> Mr. Jung
>> here. >> Councilman Marte. Councilman Boy >> here. >> Mr. Scavafava >> here. >> Mr. here. >> Mr. Mr. Kramer >> here. >> Mr. Pazelli >> here. >> Miss Ludis. >> Okay. Can we uh get a motion to open the
meeting to the public for opportunities to speak on non-aggenda items? >> Motion. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Seeing none. >> Motion to close. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Environmental commission report. >> Motion.
>> Oh, yeah. We had our meeting last night. Uh we're going to be doing some of the same initiatives that uh we've been doing uh over the course of the last decade or so. Uh we're trying to integrate a few more uh project um pro uh um projects
>> projects possibly. Yes. Uh we're we're having a little bit of difficulty uh budget-wise, but hoping to overcome that and still get some things done this year. But >> so do we get any donations though for that? Like does anybody donate tree saplings or whatever for us? Uh not not
that we we have not b been the beneficiary of any um uh donations at this point fundraiser. >> Well, we do raise funds through our fees for the community garden. >> Mhm.
>> And I think in line with that, we should also be getting funds for the tree cutting permits. >> Yeah. Well, I can tell you that we have collected tree contributions for people that don't want to replant trees.
>> Okay. >> And those could be made available to the environmental commission. That'd be awesome. >> Try to figure out, but >> finance department should have it. They get a copy of it. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, I don't have control of those strings, but um
>> I'll put in a good word for them. >> I'll send it over to you. >> Thank you. >> Anything else? >> That is all I have. >> Thanks. Council Liaison report. I don't have much of a report tonight, although we've been working uh very diligently on our budget for this coming
year. Uh it's nearing completion. Uh it's not without its challenges, but we're getting there and I'm anxious to hear uh Mr. Sabo's uh affordable housing synopsis tonight. Excellent. >> Looking forward to it.
>> I I have been all day. >> Very jazzed up about it, John. >> I can tell. Also, just to have you back. We've missed you. >> Yeah. >> Uh, construction official report. I don't think we got one this month, so I think we're good. >> Yeah, we're fine. >> Burough engineer report. Tom's not here
today. Financial secretary report. Our new spanking new financial secretary. >> Here we go. >> All right. >> Don't hold me accountable to this, but I'll give it my best. The budget amount is $3,39.
The next one here, escrow is $15,9994. >> Wow. >> For a total of 19,03894. >> We have a motion. >> Motion. >> Second. All in favor? >> I.
>> Okay. Uh, no meeting minutes this month? >> All right. We are going to swear in some members. I believe we're swearing in Mr. Allessie. Vicken is a full member and Nikki's not here. So, we're not going to
get Nikki done today, but do that. >> Sure. >> Those being sworn, please raise your right hand. >> I need to stand. >> Is this uh >> Okay. Repeat after me. I am state the full name. >> I Michael Leie do solemnly swear >> solemnly swear >> that I'll support the Constitution of
the United States. I'll support the Constitution of the United States >> and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey. >> and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey. that I will bear true faith >> I will bear true faith >> and allegiance >> and allegiance >> to the same >> to the same >> and to the governments >> and to the governments >> established in the United States >> established in the United States
>> and in this state >> and in this state >> under the authority of the people >> under the authority of the people >> that I will faithfully >> that I will faithfully >> and partially >> and partially >> and justly perform >> and justly perform >> all the duties >> all the duties >> of the office >> of the office >> planning board member >> planning board member >> borrow the pan
>> borrow >> according to the best of my ability >> according to the best of my ability to help me God >> so help me Congratulations and welcome to the big boys folk. So appreciate it. Appreciate everything you both do. Any old business?
Awesome. Any communications? Nothing. Great. Resolutions and ordinances. We don't have any. What do we have next month? >> We have 93 hearing. hearing possibly
96 herring if they can get >> that was worer right >> no that's the new applicant >> it was wor6 >> yeah and we also have that >> we're hearing central >> we'll have a hearing on this >> yeah that could take a while >> okay
>> I can I if you want I'll do one application >> no >> I don't think >> unless well people come >> yeah you should be okay >> we we You should be able to do two applications. >> Yeah. I I don't anticipate being very long because the board has already adopted. >> Yeah. And you're going to hear they're
going to hear a presentation tonight. So, it's just going to be a railroad. >> All right. >> And then um we have two, we'll call them applications or business matters we're doing today. We're going to do the uh TBD edition and then John's going to present us the fourth round housing
element and fair share plan. So, we'll start with uh TBD. So many of us have been touched by TBD, including both of my children and I'm sure most of everybody else's children. So, >> thank you very much, Nick Lepira from Fogerty Harold, Lira Cherry on behalf of
the board. Um, thank you for having us out here tonight. Obviously, as part of the courtesy review process, we're going to have um the architect present and really share with you what we find to be an exciting uh addition and a new project. Um, the business administrator, superintendent, and the board president are all here if you have any questions.
Uh, but um but Mr. Rockers I think is going to be the star of the show tonight. So I'm going to quickly turn it over to him. >> Okay. As you know, this is a section 31 review. It's not a formal hearing. Correct. >> It's for review and recommendation of a cap capital project. That's the consistency with the master plan. You prefer that the people who are here
tonight be sworn. I don't think it's necessary, but if you want to >> I agree. I don't think that's necessary either. And and yeah, what whatever recommendations that you have, we'll certainly take on your adisement, review those. We're happy to do that. >> Um and then on a personal level, I'm very impressed that you know the oath of office by heart. That's great. I hope you aspire for that one day.
>> Wow. The gray hair 50 years. >> You've been doing it. >> He's really not 39. Just so you know. >> He's not the age of Miles. >> There you go. >> Every time I try back used to sitting next to Nick. I know.
>> I can I can back out. >> The school. Everybody's familiar with the school, obviously. Uh this is the it's orientated to the north to the left. The main entrance is located on this side just to the parking lot. The location where we're going to put the
addition is in the back in this location right here. There's a current uh modular building there. Now it's going to get moved and relocated later. As you can see, the addition is going to go in this location right here. It's going to be 6200 square ft. It's going
to encompass four classrooms, two small group instructions. And what we're going to do is we're going to remove the, as I stated, the modular building is going to get removed. There's some shrubbery and trees that's going to get cleared out for our addition. The addition is going
to kind of form a little courtyard. It's going to be pulled away from the existing building about 25 ft. That is the smallest point. As you'll see in the plan, they're going to have a gate here to prevent kids or any other person from going there after hours. So, it's going
to create like a little courtyard area. You'll see that in further. >> Where's the gate again? >> The gate's going to be >> right at the front. Okay. >> So, here's a floor plan looking at the addition. You're going to come there's exterior stair or uh exterior
doors located in this point right here. Now, it's going to form and go into the new corridor of the addition. Off this corridor, you're going to have the entrances to the four classrooms. One small group instruction located directly after you pass through the existing
building and another one further down as you walk down the corridor. The corridor is going to have full ceiling height glass to allow light into the space and also to allow visibility of kids playing around in those spaces as well. We have
two double doors and it's going to open out into this courtyard that we made. >> It's because he was a wine dress. Yeah, >> do that all the time.
So, here is a view looking at this courtyard. If you're in this location of the existing building looking back, as you can see, we're providing full height glass to
look into the corer of the addition. And we're using elements from existing schools materials and incorporating that in the army to make it all leg as well. As you can see, this is all going to be
paved for pavers to allow easy maintenance and also because of the way it's located, you really won't have any vegetation that's going to grow. Here's another
rendering of looking at an individual walking into that area past the gate. Looking back at the existing school, incorporating elements from the existing school into our vision again to make it
all one seem seamless. >> I have a question. Sure. >> Just curiosity. Is that overhang the original? No. Left. Yeah, that big. Is that the original school? >> Yeah, >> that's the original. >> That's the first grade brick. So to orient you. Sorry.
>> No, it orients me. >> Okay. So to orient you, this is like if I'm walking into this area, I'm walking from Heric Drive, you know, like onto the in the front of the school. I'm walking into this area. And right over here, this is the first grade wing. This
is what what exists now. This is the first grade wing. So if you have children in the school now, you're passing Denise Allen's room, Allison Kawuchcci's room. This is the first grade wing. >> And so what exists here right now is just sort of a pavement and some open
area where we currently put what we call a trailer or a modular. >> The ultimate goal is to get rid of that modular because that's doesn't that was never meant to be a permanent solution, but we needed space until we could figure out what to do. So right now that
modular is right about here and that we're are obviously interested to get rid of that modular and to add on to the school. So this addition is not the full length of the first grade wing that
exists. It's sort of a shortened arm of the that first grade wing. So it comes out to about where the bathrooms are in that first grade wing. So you many of you know the school pretty well. It doesn't it doesn't come out quite as far
as >> the the front of the school. >> The bathroom's right here. >> So it doesn't come out quite as far as the front of the school. Um which is great because as you're driving along on Heric in, you know, in towards the front of the school, you still see the front
of the school as the front of the school. It's not as though, you know, this would necessarily also become the front of the school. It's pushed back >> and it's also behind the tree, >> right? There's a transformer there which we can't move and all sorts of things. So, this is behind that, but it's
towards the front of the school. So what Rodney was mentioning about integrating the materials which I think is important which was one of our interests was to use the brick that exists in the current building from the 50s include the building block that was used
in the addition from the '9s and integrate both of those elements into the new uh shortened wing that's here so that it does look like it belongs. and also use using these same overhangs that
you asked about and using those same components which you'll see on the next on the next um on the next uh poster that he has integrating all of those current components so it doesn't look like where did that comes from you know that it was just like stuck onto the
building. So that's very important to us that it looks like it >> so this is a view looking from the adjacent property looking at that school and you can see the addition and again that's part of the latest edition that was incorporated with the
gym >> right >> what's the ground is that >> this is so you can see it ends here but the first grade wing that exists now it keeps out here.
So, it's the front of the school, but it's not to the front of the school. >> And this is what it's going to look like inside the addition. When you walk from the existing building, walking into the addition, you can see the glass looking
into the courtyard. Again, allowing light into the space. And you see we can have some educational spaces at the Carter. It just opens everything up just being punched out. >> And one of the other interests that we had was continuing the flooring that
exists in the current building that's from the 50s, which is the Terzo flooring is continuing that into this hallway as well. So, it's not that long of a hallway. So, it was, you know, it made sense for us to consider that so that it does look like it would be long.
So, these pieces were important to us uh in our planning stage. >> So, here's another shot of a typical classroom that we're going to have in each room. They're all going to look similar. Colors are not finalized yet, but we're
just showing different accent walls and different to try to brighten things up. >> Nor's furniture because we do prefer that. get another shot or another view of the same similar question.
>> That's pretty much it. >> All righty. We want to open it up to the board for some questions. >> Yeah, >> we'll strike down on the end. >> John, >> yes, I have some questions. Um, you mentioned that you were going to clear some vegetation, but I didn't notice
that on the plan about the extent to which that was going to occur. looking at aerial photography. There's there trees and brushes and there are kinds of My question is twofold. One, um you you show an increase in the pavement. There's a pavement extension, not just
that courtyard you mentioned in the plan. What's that for? >> Yeah, I'm looking at the site plan that you submitted. There's a new addition. The building is set back 23 ft. And then it says new pavement. Is that the courtyard? I thought you said the courtyard. No, it's it's basically the
the black cup that's there and we just redo it. >> Oh, okay. Cuz it said new. I didn't know whether it was in fact an expansion. >> It's just it's in bad condition. So, >> is there any um thought to buffering in there, you know, think can supplement what you're taking out?
>> Have to pay this. >> Well, really, we have to clear. >> We need to show the board what you're clearing. We have to clear some of these trees in order to put the location. >> There's already a bunch of vegetation >> that that
what I would recommend is that you describe the limits of of this of the disturbance on the plan so we know what's going to be preserved and what isn't. Uh those are my only comments. Mr. Chairman, members of the board, you know, schools are permitted use. Uh this the R15 R15. So it's permitted and the
master plan supports that. So the expansion of schools anticipated as part of zoning and also the master plan. So I I wouldn't say that it's inconsistent uh with the master plan. It's a binding but as a plan uh there are other policies about buffers and landscaping that you
know that's why I raised some of those issues. Looking at the areas you can see that there are in fact trees uh brush you know vegetation especially on the residential side of the neighborhood. But um we always take an interest in preserving as much as we can. It's been
the policy of the board to delineate what's the limits of disturbance. And I'm just suggesting that as a recommendation to the board that you know we we tag the trees and work with the shade tree commission to to make sure that what's being done and disturbed is appropriate and not
excessive. And that's basic u >> yeah I actually had similar uh comments regarding planting in general. Um, so is all is all the planting going to be removed? >> Okay, maybe you can clarify for us. >> This area right around here. >> Okay,
>> that area. >> Okay, so it looks as though a a large portion of the existing tree line is going to be kept, but we need to know and I think the shade tree should be involved in that >> as a cooperative as a cooperation between the border bed and and the burrow. So we'll maintain the buffering
from that adjacent house. You can see it from the pool. It's pretty easy. >> We're not touching that. >> Okay, great. Thank That's good. >> Good. Just one admonishment that you know Mr. Reagan mentioned this is not a site plan. You know this is recommendations. They're required to come. >> The the you know the department of
education requires that they get some feedback >> c as a capital project. Any any agency doing a capital >> they take it as advisement. The main concern is whether it's inconsistent or consistent with the master plan and it's not inconsistent. >> Correct. >> I agree. >> Okay. Anything else John?
>> No sir. >> Uh Tom. >> Yeah. Um on the courtyard I notice um basically you have a 10-ft opening right here towards the end only one opening. Um during any type of some type of
evacuation of of these classrooms is is your plan to have evacuated into that courtyard. >> So each classroom has ex an exterior door. >> Yes. onto the on the other side is consistent with all of the other
classrooms um that do exist at TBD. So TBD classrooms have two uh entrances and exits, one from the hallway and one from the exterior of the classroom >> and they have that. >> So we maintain that in in these uh new
classes here. So um so during evacuation, teachers have an option based on circumstance to either evacuate directly to the exterior of the building or if for some reason circumstances dictate
that's not a good idea, they could evacuate through the corridor. So that currently exists now as as a practice. Typically they go out the exterior door. It makes the most sense, but there might be a situation that doesn't work. >> Right. just I see more exterior doors
now exiting into this courtyard. Um and I just see a 10-ft opening. I mean 10 foot's no larger than that to exit from this courtyard cuz you have >> Yeah, you have classrooms uh with 116, 118, and 120 now uh opening up to that
courtyard along with these four new classrooms that have the potential going in there. >> They have the potential to go. >> Okay. So you just that seems like a lot of potential students trying to get out a 10-ft >> alleyway really. >> Okay.
>> But we also could go out the other way. >> Of course, you know, I I do see that you do have the option that just if both of them choose one option or the other, you could have everybody in this courtyard at once. >> Okay, that's it. >> Okay. Okay, I do have a few, but before
I do that, um I appreciate the effort to match the vernacular of the existing school. Not too many people do that. So, it's a it's a nominal it may not even be any cost to do that. So, the fact that you're doing that, I think um that's that's better for everybody. Um I just
first thing I wanted to is talk about is I just wanted to piggyback off of that planting conversation from earlier. So, um, in that new courtyard that's being created, um, is there any thought about putting planting in there to just liven it up? It seemed >> a tough
>> seem nice big area, but >> tough area to grow because >> right, >> it's basically enclosed. >> So, >> there's a lot of shade loving stuff out there. >> Yeah. I mean, we could >> that's just a thought. I'm not >> looking for that. >> Just for the students who are looking out the windows from both sides. I mean,
it, you know, all they're going to see is the other side of the building, which is attractive, but it's not, you know, it's um deny your life to it. So, just something to consider. Um, regarding that courtyard, I don't know the answer to this. I don't know if it even applies, but what are the courtyard
dimensions like the requirements? Not the dimensions, the requirements for clearance between the >> minimum is 20 ft. >> And we're what? 25. You said >> 20 ft. We're 25. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, okay. Next question is
the modular building. How long has that modular building been there? >> Five years. >> Really? >> That was out of necessity. Obviously, it was >> Yeah, it's really a trailer. A module building. >> It's like a butler building or something. >> It's really a trailer that is used for for office.
>> Okay. >> Okay. So, it's not going to have the same purpose? >> No. No, it's not going to happen. >> Okay. >> In the past, the employees were in unused spaces, unused classrooms that we
would split into triplets or, you know, into a quad. Um, but those classrooms couldn't be used in that way for adults, office spaces, child study team members. They had to be turned back to students for classroom. >> Okay.
>> So, that was uh we resorted to uh the trailer. >> Thank you. um toilet capacity. So, we've added six classrooms plus some other spaces. I'm I'm assuming that's because the population of the of the school is growing. Um is there a need to
consider expanding uh the toilet capacity for these? >> No, we're still within the >> We're still within the the code requirements. Okay. >> And there's there's toilets right down >> right down there. So, it's close.
>> Excellent. Uh, timing of the project, >> um, we're looking at probably 12 to 16 months of construction starting this June. >> So, June 26 to between June and November
of >> Hopefully everything goes well, the next September 27 will be able to >> Got it. Then last question is technology. So, it's a it's a brave new world we're in today. What are we doing for technology regarding the school?
>> Incorporating uh cameras, >> um some security hardware on the exterior >> and extending the existing uh in infrastructure into that space that is currently in school. >> Are we doing anything in reverse like
back into the school to tie it? In other words, are we let me let me rephrase my question. Um, it's good to see that with security. I like that. But are we doing anything in terms of technology, in terms of, you know, we're in the 21st century now and in terms of AI, in terms
of any technology that might be best for the students to learn from? >> I think right now we're really just tapping off the existing uh technology wiring that's in the school now. Okay. >> So, whatever is there now, we're going to just extend that into our >> Okay.
I appreciate it. I appreciate you answering my questions and indulging me. Thank you. >> Okay. I think the project looks great. Uh what is the what is the period of time that this project has been in the planning stages? How how long have you
been looking to do this not just to replace the trailer but for the need of uh additional students? How long has it been in the works so to speak? I think um the trailer conversation is ongoing internally is what are we doing? What
are we doing about this trailer? Uh you know, it's been an ongoing subject for us, but um really not knowing exactly what would make the most sense for us. Uh it really came to fruition for us this past summer in conversations as we
were tracking uh enrollment at TV. >> That's that's was going to be my next question. Yeah, we were tracking >> is the increase in in the enrollment because of the up you know the >> obvious uh development in our town and so has that's what actually
>> yeah it took the scale >> it it's to to the extent that >> there would be no >> right right when they came in in front of our board you know it's not going to affect the schools very much it's not oh it's not going to cost the town anything
>> and we knew they were you know Pinocchioing us. But we're not allowed to ask certain financial questions. We're not allowed to add ask for cost or how much can the taxes be if you know on on on a development say for instance where they're going to be paying tax. So
we're not allowed to ask that. Right Bob? >> True. >> Right. So uh you know >> don't complain you have to build inclusionary development. >> Not go down that path. >> I'll tell you build a new school. Um, so I mean this is a and is this the cost of
this is it and I I don't know if I'm even allowed to ask is the cost of this actually all you know a burden of uh ultipan or do we get funding from the schools >> from the uh from the municipalities or
the the county or even the state >> answer the district has a capital reserve funds where we've been setting aside money for decades Right. >> This will come from that capital. There'll be no additional tax. >> No state funding.
>> No state >> because I'm I'm sure everybody at this on our board is aware. They've gone around and they're doing a real estate >> appraisals on everybody's property. And I'm not sure how much anybody else's reevaluations and I'm not sure how much
anybody else's percentages have gone up, but they're going up anywhere between well the the appraised value. They're now bringing it up to fair market value. So now they're bringing up to fair market value, but they're also reducing, you know, I guess the tax rate now that
the fair market value is up 60 70%. They can't raise the tax 60 70%. But they are raising it at least say 10%. >> Don't you think they live in town? They don't. >> No, I know. Well, >> so what do you tell them? >> No, but I'm saying that it's so the the cost of the school is obviously a
portion of our taxes, right? I don't know what percentage it is, but it's it's a it's a higher percentage. So, I wasn't I was just wondering is there any correlation between the raising of the taxes on the town and to the residents
to the cost of the uh of the project? But I think you've just said that >> this is outside of our >> So that what are they doing with the surplus is what I'd like to know. >> I'm I'm being slightly sarcastic. The the the surplus of the extra taxes that they're raising from us.
>> Can we maybe move on? >> So So the way that >> No, Mike, I sorry you missed the last meeting. Okay. >> So the way that it works is that the school goes and budget what they need based upon the laws and school finance.
Um there's a cap on tax levy increases. There are a few exceptions to that, but we basically present that and we request that money and that's what the burrow would then pay the school. That's independent of what happens with the taxation of the town. So theoretically,
if a new development is built quickly, promptly, and that happens immediately after we've set our rate for the budget, there's more tax money presumably that's being paid to the municipality. That doesn't we don't get more money because of that. Conversely, I'm excuse me. Conversely, when Pearson went out uh and
they were no longer paying tax anymore, we weren't reduced. This really works independently, which is different than how New York works. >> Just happened in New York. So I know that's when someone goes out and they go out to the school to repay that. Doesn't work in New Jersey that way. But this project is not tied to that. This is
money that the district has set aside for a capital project. >> Right. When Pearson went out though, they continued to be assessed real estate taxes by the own the owners were still responsible for the taxes even though the development had not yet been built. Right. >> Presumably. Yeah. I don't I I don't want
to step outside of what I do know. I just know that we asked for >> I'm going to I'm going to bail out now because I'm only going to get in more trouble with the board after you guys leave. You're fine. >> Always in trouble. Always. Always. >> Mr. Allessie.
>> Well, I'm going to regail you with a piece of history that you erased from my mind with that one addition. So, back in the day when the Mets were in the World Series against the Orioles, they played during the day. >> 1969. >> Yeah, I was in school then. Okay, we
don't have to go there. and our grammar school and our teacher was a big Met fan and we were outside for recess. We were actually begging to go back inside because we were so tired and so dried out cuz it was just dirt back then and we begged to go back
inside and not have recess anymore. So that's erased my memory now cuz I think there's a a portage on there now. >> That's it. I have no tax questions. I'm not a CPA. >> Anything else, Mike? >> You don't have to be. Are you good?
>> I'm good. >> Mr. Boyce, >> um I think it's a wonderful addition to the school and much needed. I appreciate the vernacular architecture nod to history. I think it's going to flow seamlessly. I'm curious, speaking of flowing, how
how are you handling any storm water created by the roofs and additional hardscape that you're creating? >> All going to be in underground tension tanks. >> Okay. because there's no uh storm back current. So, it's just going to be held
with tanks and it's coming back. So, >> so you're adding new tanks based on the lock coverage increase of impervious coverage. Okay, so that's good. Um I appreciate the rest of the board's uh appreciation for plants. It's really refreshing.
>> You've been rubbing off on us. >> You're rubbing off on us, Bill. You're rubbing off. I'm >> taking half my uh calling over here, which is great. So, I'll just get past that. Um is there any programming for the outdoor um new area like outdoor classrooms and
do you think that that would impact the indoor classrooms from the current I think first grades that look into it like would you want to I see a clear expanse of hardscape but I don't see any areas kind of carved out for classrooms
with permanent seating or something. Is that something you're looking to do in the future or not in the budget or it's too busy? >> Right. So, it could be. Um, we recently worked with the PTO and have a beautiful outdoor classroom on the um far side of
the building, the opposite side of where that is. Um, place. Uh, beautifully done, a heartscape with uh squeezing as well. um beautifully done with tables and umbrellas and classes do use that space
and um how do the second grade teachers who are in that way manage that when a class that's not their class, you know, when they're out there, they shut the blinds, you know, how do they manage that? And so um you know considering what to do within that courtyard um we
would take into consideration how that outdoor classroom which is used all the time when the weather is right and sort of translate that >> uh you know into this uh this other park space. But the teachers do love outdoor
uh outdoor time with the classes. That has been an increase. It's actually one of our uh focal points of our blueprint which is our strategic plan for three years that the board uh enthusiastically endorses as uh kind of you know teachers sort of grow with the plan and that is
um less screen time um and more outdoor uh learning and learning opportunities for students. And so, you know, seeing an outdoor uh space that has that uh has that sort of open pallet to be able to to work with that really does uh excite
us um because we have opportunities now to think that through and allow those goals really to come to fruition. And um you know I appreciate the AI question, but you know we do try to balance that in an elementary school with um you know
preparing students for the real world and also reminding them that part of the real world is playing and enjoying outdoors and learning from each other and having conversations with each other and their teachers and how to do that with one another. That's part of our
job. So um yeah, we're still thinking through that courtyard. Okay. All right. Um I have no more questions. >> Um I guess my first question is for Bob
actually. Am I correct on understanding that um this is different from other applications? >> Not a site plan. >> They're not. So they're not bound by any tree >> place. 31 of the municipal land use for review and recommendation of the project as a capital project as to consistency
with the bur master plan. >> Okay. Period. Okay. All right. So then I'll skip over that first thing. Um then let's just go. You said that the width of the courtyard is 20 25 ft >> and the gate there is 10 ft. >> Yes. The gate is
>> there's a classroom. >> Smoke construction here. There's the toilets the back side. So we're going to have a gate there just to prevent kids or people who are not supposed to be back there from getting back there. Okay. And that gates will be a swinging gate.
>> Yes. >> Okay. Any thoughts to putting like a sliding gate so that it could be open to the full >> No, we wanted to have a the full 10 width 10T opening so that they can get equipment back there. >> Oh, so the there the the full opening is 10 ft then. Okay, perfect.
>> What is the height of that? >> The height of the gate. >> Yeah, the gate >> be six feet. >> Six feet. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I thought it was a 10ft gate, but still a 25t width total width. So that's I'm stand corrected. Okay. >> Yes. >> Okay. Gotcha. Okay. And then for the uh
Bill just mentioned the hardcape and the storm water um uh you guess you're going to have um seepage pits or something to the like. Have those calculations been shared with um the our burrow engineer or do they have to be Bob? >> No. >> No. Okay.
>> But an engineer did review those to see that they >> we're still working on those. We'll present them. >> Okay. And I guess uh my last co question would be for um you know the original conceptual plan for this. Were was there any thought in going up on the existing
school rather than put a new um building to increase the footprint? And as a second part of that, if not would is is this building the new building
is that going to be designed in such a way that in the future a second story could go on top of that and say, you know, 30 years or 50 years from now it needs to be expanded. Well, to answer the first question, that was a talking
point, but once you start getting into the dollars of what the district had available, >> it really doesn't pay to go on top. You could, >> but it's double cost per square foot. >> Okay.
>> And you have to add elevator. You have to have two stairs. So, it's just really >> Okay. So, it was cost prohibitive then. That was okay. Yeah, >> this is really we don't have a lot of space >> and tough for small children. Two
floors. That's tough. So, you know, from a I I appreciated the conversation even when the board was, you know, thinking about what could we do, where could we exhausted so many uh options during conversations, which you know, we appreciated very much. But, you know, I
was always putting my two cents in there and just the realities of it. You know, you're moving 5-year-olds even. >> Well, motion determine that it's just >> short legs. >> But it makes me wish I was back in grammar school seeing a husband.
>> Go ahead. >> We'll have some kids. >> Hi. >> Um, I guess my question is justformational. What do you see going into what grades do you see going into the new area since
the first graders the first graders are going to remain where they are today? So, um, you know, when I spoke to the staff at TBD on a few different occasions because space is really tight over there and the way they're sharing space and what we're how we're doing
certain things is definitely not what we're used to, but we're, you know, mustering through and and uh I gave them an update in a few days ago to tell them that I was coming here to see uh the planning board and um so for them it starts to become real, you know, and
only question that was asked was who's going in the museum of course >> and >> the halves and have nots at all >> and I said well not kindergarten that's for sure because they need bathrooms um
and uh and obviously not our youngest students so uh definitely looking at older students because bathrooms are not in that hallway so they have to walk down the hallway and turn the corner similarly to what we have now with our third and fourth graders. So, um it most
likely will be an upper grade. Uh and the small group instruction rooms um could be used uh by so many uh people. We have right now in a small room. We have two to three teachers teaching small groups in small rooms and sharing
space. We have uh ESL being taught in a different room uh every period of every day and teachers themselves work out of a closet. So um that's sort of give you a sense of where we are and it and it happens fast.
>> Yeah. So the um I did where do you see the growth in the students that are coming in today? Are they in the K to one or are they >> below grade?
>> It's it's growth across all grades but the concentration is really the lower. >> So I belong to St. pious church and in the last two years they've indicated that they've had a hundred baptisms
in the church. Now some of them are not old Japan residents um but you can be sure a majority of them are. So in a few years you're going to get quite an influx. >> That's all I have. Is that it?
>> Yeah. Thank you. It's a beautiful rendering. >> Thank you. >> Uh question I have, you know, uh it it looks like it is a brick, the old one. >> Mhm. >> Are you going to use brick or like uh
>> brick? >> Real brick. Yeah. >> Not the thin brick. >> No. >> No. >> Okay. What about the roofing material? >> It's going to be a flat roof. It's going to be a TI builtup roof with granulated coat tops.
I have a question on the size of the rooms. There's four of them are looks like similar size and then you have two tiny ones in the corners. >> Small room construction. >> Uh well I know it's it's yeah because of
uh the real estate you have. What are these two smaller rooms going to be used for? >> Right. So they could be used for a variety of things. They could be used for uh special education instruction which is uh has to be taught in a small
group. Uh or it could be used for ESL uh second language or multi multiple language. So they now called it ML, but we still ESL instruction, which is >> I mean, we could go back in time and see who was talking too much, but that's
enough. >> I personally ESL instruction, which is uh teaching children how to speak English. um which is also taught in a small group. So uh there are variety of small group uh instruction uh classes
that must be taught uh at every grade level. And right now it's like you know it is just jockeying people around um and using spaces that are really not typically used uh as classroom space.
Since our engineer is not here, so I'm going to act like one today. Uh, is there going to be additional drainage issue? I mean, we're we're talking 5,500 square ft additional given that most of it it's it's uh it's asphalt right now.
So, is there any thought of there's a >> somebody looked at the drainage issue? Yeah, seage. >> What's that? >> Seage pits. because there's no storm. So, you're taking like a heartscape
anyway. >> That's all I have. >> Uh just two quick questions for me. Uh, and this is probably something you've all already discussed, but since we're dipping into the well uh of of the funding here, is there anything else that's being addressed uh from a capital
improvement perspective, like inside or outside the building? >> Yeah, >> we're renovating the toilets. >> Okay. >> Also, we're uh replacing the board. >> Oh, okay. And that's all coming out of this project scope. >> Yes.
as and I'm sure the boiler is probably being increased I have to imagine in size >> just being replaced same capacity >> and this will be the addition is probably a different utility system it's using >> no there's no there's no water >> got it
>> but the heating will be done from a gas fire roof >> okay and thank you um my second question is I even hesitate to ask this it's beautiful I I love the glass we live in a different world today. Um, is the
glass a a certain type of glass? >> Not many of them. >> So when it breaks, it doesn't break into sharp shards. >> Mhm. >> Like a car. >> Got it. Very It's a thick I have very young children. My oldest is in
kindergarten >> and I've got a four-year-old and a 2-year-old. I also went to TBD myself. Kindergarten in 1989, I think, or 88 maybe. >> Um, years after that when you were >> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> somewhere in my time.
>> Yeah. Um and this this was all not there. I mean, the school was there, but this is the second or third edition since I went. But, um you know, my concern stems from just uh someone's ability to get into that glass. It's a lot of glass with various different methods.
>> Did you mean tempered glass and not laminated glass? >> The C because the tempered is one that crumbles, >> right? But it's also laminated with a >> with a piece of plastic between the two layers. Okay. >> So it's tempered laminated. Okay. >> It's pretty safe, Mike.
>> Yeah. All like new code. I'm sure for Okay. >> Yeah. Coming as a concerned parent and citizen. So >> nice. >> Thank you for answering the question. That's all for now. When when do you expect to reach the uh stress level at the Charles Dwolf school
that you're experiencing at the TBB school? At what point? >> So Charles the Wolf has a different arrangement in that uh when you operate in a middle school, you can use space a little bit differently or a while longer. Meaning, if I'm a teacher and I
have second period free, uh the principal could schedule another class to be taught in my classroom period 2. Um you can't do that in an elementary school because the class is in that room all day. So you think about high school
like when you were in high school, teachers move. They may have shared rooms and you know that teacher taught periods one and two in this room and then the teacher taught here periods four and six. you share space in a different way. So, uh we are doing that
now at CV Delhood. Uh not in all spaces but in a few spots where we need to do that. That could continue, you know, that could continue. You can't do that in an elementary school. The children have a space. They are in that space all day and you don't share space by periods
in that same way. So CDW still has you know space to sort of push uh a bit more. Um but uh you know the thing that at CDW which is sort of our um our buffer really when you think about it is
that lot of land that the board was so uh wise in in buying which was 279 Old Pan Road which is there and um you know thinking about down the road if we did need to do something that would be the
spot where something would be able to connect to the school if needed. Um, but again, not rushing to do anything on that spot because it might not be needed. >> Great. Great.
>> Um, yeah, I guess it was brought up already, but um, my my thoughts were mostly on the courtyard and it the existing courtyard that's outside the media center is is beautiful. I've been there. Um, and there's some landscaping
there. It would be very nice to see some sort of raised beds maybe in the center, some butterfly garden or something like that. Um I feel like even through those windows that would look very beautiful, but if you did do something like that,
you did mention that there's not going to be any um water utility or anything run into that space. Is there a spot available? >> System building now perimeters. >> Okay. Um, and there was no, um, I was also
just thinking from a practical perspective for teachers. I feel like if I was a teacher here, having a small, especially if this was going to be used for older students to have a small sink in there to like use for you want to do
plants in the room or something like that. Feel like that would be a very handy thing to have. So, it's just that's basically my thoughts. All right. Um, anybody else on the board? Any other thoughts? We're not required to open it up to the public
since nobody from the public's here anyway. Um, so um we'll we're going to look to make a motion um from the board to see that it's consistent with the master plan. But before we do that, I certainly hope you take into
consideration the modest suggestions that we've made, which pretty minor. Um but um you know we certainly are all interested and we all have like I said history and relationship with the school. Anybody want to make that motion? >> I make that motion. >> Second.
>> Roll call. >> Nine members. >> I think we probably have nine. >> I think we're just about there. >> Mr. Mario. >> Yes. >> Mr. Mari. >> Yes. >> Mr. Ke. >> Yes. >> Mr. >> Yes. >> Mr. John. >> Yes. Council member Boyce.
>> Yes. >> Mr. Scava. >> Yes. >> Mr. Bedin. >> Yes. >> Mr. Zarian. >> Yes. >> Counting. >> Okay. >> Congratulations. Thank you again for
coming for us, providing the courtesy to us. We appreciate that. >> All right. >> We are gonna leap right into Don't take it personally. I'm going to start right into the next category. Um, and that is having our now retired
planner present to us the fourth round housing element and fair share plan. Mr. Zo, >> I'm reminded of that scene in Godfather where Alpuccino every time I try to get out back in
the only reason I I am suing my uh part-time retirement because I'm trying to finish up all these plans of course is all >> uh we appreciate that. Thank you. >> Well, I I I was I was not really alerted on that. the if the board recalls back
in this whole process started with the amendments to the fair housing act and I'm not going to bore everybody with with the full history of this but a brief chronology the bureau is required to establish its full housing obligation by January of this year and it did so it
followed the bureau has followed every timeline of the amended fair housing act so we're not in any danger of being uh found not in compliance at this point uh the obligation was estab established as 212 units and that was done through settlement with fair share housing
center which didn't like the fact that >> was higher than that was 233 >> it was a lot higher we we actually had our obligation down to almost nothing based on the methodology fair share took exception and through the court system and mediation the barrel settled at 212
the present need obligation and that hasn't changed the present need obligation which is your rehab need Those are the units in your town that qualify for rehabilitation uh that are that are possibly occupied by low moderate income families for it's not it's not a
substantial number but that's your obligation for the fourth round. The bureau established its obligation went through this mediation process um and then adopted in June the housing element fair share plan with those numbers 212
prospective need four units rehab. The plan called for a number of things. It called that you adopted back in June. It called for the establishment of an overlay zone over the bystate plaza and some of the portions of the pro of part
parcel parcels across the street. It was uh designed to allow for inclusionary mixeduse commercial development on bystate and then create a professional office inclusionary zone across the street. Why did that enter into the
plan? because there was a sense amongst the discussions that we were having that we didn't want to overwhelm the corridor with just simply retail. We wanted to if you look at the way the old pan road corridor is set up now you do have enclaves of offices and so it was
suggested that let's balance it out and let's not take away that portion of the economy. Let's leave it in there as a service to the residents. So that was that. Then we go through a process. We adopt the plans. we then have to submit that to the court and allow for parties
to file objections by August 31st. Uh no one really objected to the plan uh except Fair Share Housing Center. >> They objected hundreds of >> and and the reason they they objected and it it wasn't that they didn't like our plan, they didn't like the the fact
that when I did the vacant land assessment and analysis for the burrow, you surprisingly have no land to build on. That's not a shock, >> but that's also consistent with what we've been saying over the years, hasn't it? >> Over the years, the third round, we actually had a few projects that we
accounted for through the process and identified a realistic development potential of some 20 odd units. We addressed our third round obligations completely except for the accessory dwelling unit part of it, which was part of RDP. So, we addressed that in the
fourth run and I'll tell you how. So we go through all of this. Fair share objects and now we go into mediation and settlement. And we were able to convince the judge and fair share that we don't have any more land. But the court
adjudicator was concerned that we needed to expand the zone. So why are we looking at an amended plan? Because the settlement that the burrow entered into its fair share that the court has has been filed with the court was that we were going to expand the uh the town to
center overlay. We were going to expand the zone going towards the wolf. Basically, if you looked at your zoning map, it corresponds to the B1 and B2 zones. So the decision was that we will anchor and there's a map that's attached to the
plan and and I apologize you should have all gotten a copy >> that map too John >> and this is just a work session so you'll have time between now and the next meeting to review and and develop questions but there's a uh there's a a map a zoning map in there that shows as we go further up where the zone is going
to fall. So we anchor the the >> page 35 I think. Yeah, that's good. >> So, you'll see that in that plan we have two professional office overlays that have to go that go over the existing offices on on DOI off of Pan Road and
the offices that are across the street on Oldan Road. Now, and we extend extend the um the inclusionary retail mixed juice a little bit along Old Pan Road. It corresponds to the entirety of of the B1 and B2 is basically what it is. The
burrow also agreed because the court adjudicator was concerned about density as were uh we settled at 15 dwelling units to the acre where originally it was uh at 12. Uh we fought to keep that as low as we possibly could. >> That's pretty good because fair share
has been saying 25. They they were obsessed with 25. Yeah, they they wanted a lot more and I was able to convince the court by showing how this the burrow has a developed and b how your zoning has evolved. 12 units to the acre is is
your highest density. I mean that's over on Pearson. So to go any higher would have been uncharacteristic for the community and we argued that it would be detrimental and that it would be inconsistent and and those are principles that you don't abandon just
because it's not moral. uh you still get to raise those kinds of issues although fair share they carry a big punch when they go to court because of their influence on the court decision-making and the court adjudicators. So we were able to to get it at 15 and we thought that that was a a significant win for
the burrow. It's all overlay and what that what that means is you have an RDP of zero. The reason fair share objected was because the 25% of uh your perspective needs to be addressed through zoning. We argued that that
applied only if you had RDP and we don't. But unfortunately the courts didn't agree and the court adjudicators didn't agree even though that's clearly what the statute says. >> They've taken that position in every case. >> Yeah. And and it's wrong. It is a wrong position but we couldn't convince them
otherwise. So you >> there's no appealing for stuff like that. >> There. >> I mean is it is it New Jersey? >> I understand that. Come on. You know we're dealing with >> I I know >> there's no there's a there are appeal avenues but you got you're going nowhere with it. There is a federal lawsuit
going on and we're trying to we're hoping that that may have all depends a party for that. >> Yes. And all depends upon >> and before the US Supreme Court right now get guess which justice has to look >> right. >> If you had a choice of the nine justices,
>> right? a Jersey guy, >> conservative, >> and and the >> I'm not saying it was going to work, but >> wasn't there a a question I had had at one point saying, "Don't we have the ability to appeal what New Jersey does to us to the Supreme Court?" And now
you're telling me that there is there there's an avenue been opened. >> It's been filed, but whether it has traction, who knows? >> Yeah, I I I'm not confident even though Alito is involved. >> The the argument is equal protection. That's the big argument. has to do with
the quam towns, the 62 urban aid towns who have no affordable housing obligation because they're urban aid towns. >> Oh, yeah. >> And they're building like crazy. And >> so that's how you got that's how they got into it. I mean, you have Jersey City, you have Monlair, >> right? >> Hoboken. >> Hoboken. Yeah.
>> These are places I can't afford to live. My my daughter is struck to stay there because she works in New York. The bottom line is that that obligation from those qualified urban communities gets foisted on all the other miniff right >> even though these towns by the way
Jersey City has passed affordable housing ordinance Newark has those should be credited against the regional need but they're not zero obligation >> looks like park has one of the zero huh >> so that's what we're dealing with so the plan the way the plan shapes up is it's
not much different than what you saw other than it's expanded and the density has been increased. The other element we had to do was we had to address the accessory dwelling unit issue. We had put in our our plan under the third round 10 units which is what was permitted the max and that would have
been credited against our realistic development potential which means you have to do it. we haven't rehabbed or we haven't created any accessory dwelling apartment units rather than be penalized for that because they could easil easily have said well you got to make those units up in the fourth round. What the bureau agreed to do and the court
adjudicator recommended and accepted was that we would up the price per unit to 25,000. >> That money is available already to you in your affordable housing trust fund. So it's not an extra tax. It's not something that's going to come out of the budget. It's already there
>> and you need to use it or lose it. you >> because I was told today the next big battle down the road um I was was the meeting I had on affordable housing on one of my towns um is and special counsel said after this thing is all done fair share
is not going to have a lot to do they're going to go after the towns that have a lot of development fees >> and and there's a specific statuto there's a statutory provision to go out of the >> it's right in the new statute >> and they and guess who wrote it probably >> fair share housing
So we had to expand the zones crazy >> but it corresponds to the business zones of the burrow. The idea is that the thinking is what let's take this and make it into something positive for the community. So by creating a town center
uh we have mixed use. It's consistent and compatible with the Pearson development. We're carrying that along the corridor and then we have it anchored with two professional zones on either end. And there could be synergies here that actually could be positive if
it should come around. Now I want to explain one thing. This is all unmet need because you have an RDP of zero. What does that mean? Couple of things. It means firstly that uh you have no land and the law recognizes it. So your
entire obligation of 212 units is unmet need. Well, you treat unmet need as aspirational which is why you can do overlays. The overlay keeps the underlying zone. So you still have your B1 rights, your B2 rights. No one is affected by this adversely because they can continue doing what they're doing.
It's just an added level of of incentive to try to get some inclusionary housing developed. So uh the other thing we needed to do is up our our affordable housing assist apartment dwelling uh obligation that's in the spending plan that's attached. So we had to address
that and we amended our mandatory set aside ordinance to require that any development of five units or more at density of six storm units or greater has a affordable housing obligation. That's kind of like a safety net for fair share. We already had a mandatory. We just broaden it to anything. Why
should somebody get a benefit of not having to provide affordable units if they're outside of this zone? Because the mandatory set aside ordinance was only written for certain situations. we've made it broader and that's actually consistent with the Fair Housing Act amendment. You know, they
want this. So, you've seen this before. Uh this is basically an opportunity and and I wish I had a little more time to review the draft, but this is on for public hearing on the next meeting, March 11th. So, you have some time. Uh there'll be a duly advertised public hearing.
The ordinances that go with this are also attached to the plan. you can give that a look and uh we'll have a public hearing and that's I would ask that that be the first thing on if you've got other items or applications on our next meeting will be a public hearing so
we're going to be advertised the heck >> advertise are we doing the notices or is the burough >> I think uh I gave the notice >> you have the notice I'm going to do it tomorrow I gave I gave it to >> and you know it has to go to the clerks of contiguous towns the county planning board the office of planning advocacy
you have a whole laundry Most of the people certified and regular mail and all that. Okay. >> You got it. >> So what's our obligation? >> What is our obligation planning board? >> Yeah. To adopt the plan. >> Okay. >> Then it has to be done by March 15.
>> I was going to get to the >> Our meeting is March 11th. I think you want to have me have a resolution ready to go on that night. >> You can I I've spoken to Brian Giblin, the burough attorney, about the time frames and everything and you know that the council is going to act after. Now
the the boot that you >> I can do the resolution. >> The burrow the burrow is also going to be introducing some ordinances that's attached. >> I have to come back >> that'll come back here on a referral that'll be also on March 11th. So you have a preview of the ordinances. They're in the package. Uh we can
discuss those but that's going to be a referral of a development regulation back pursuant to the municipal land. So but that is more of a that's also like you did with the school a consistency review. where you you can make a determination whether this is in the ordinances are
inconsistent or consistent. Obviously, they'll be consistent because we're doing it because of the plan, right? So, there shouldn't be an issue with that. But, you will have a crack at that as well. But, we're not going to have a lot of leeway to make changes, major changes. We don't have time. >> Got to get it done. >> One of the one of the horrible things
about this whole process is the time frame. >> It's just been impossible to deal with. Uh I I can't find anyone who's enamored with the process. >> He's the most oppressive, burdensome, and cruel piece of legislation against municipalities that I've seen in almost 50 years. Why don't
>> you tell us how you really feel? >> I'm serious. This is serious stuff. >> As a former municipal planner and mayor and, you know, been involved in municipal government a long time. I I have to agree. >> And we're the only state that has this, Bob. >> Um, there are a couple of states that have, but nothing is comprehensive.
>> I don't think that's what's unconstitutional, right? It's that we're we're really being burdened like where no other states >> I've said it before I've said it again elections have consequences >> and ironically we're already the most densely populated state in the country
and what we're doing is making it more densely >> we are the most >> what I what I want to I want to apologize for the time frame it is what it is uh we're dealing with this all over the state >> you did a good job John >> and trying to get this thing together it's been a nightmare actually was
actually one of the easier towns if I can say that tongue and cheek because everybody was on board. We knew what we had to do and we had limited options. Where else are we going to put it? >> John, can you can you approve it with like I think like what lawyers might say with prejudice or something? >> Don't go there. >> I'm just I'm just throwing
>> Nick, you know, I Nick put it in the minutes. Put it in the minutes but not in the resolution. If you have >> No, that's what I'm saying though that it's it's like we're accepting something reluctantly because we have to accept it because it's been shoved down our throat. But at the same time, we're not
able to to at least, >> you know, say in some kind of document or something that we do not agree with the the premise. >> You have free speech, first amendment rights. Put it in the minutes, but that's I would not put it in the resolution because that's going to that's just going to
>> I'm only saying that just will come after you in a minute. >> What will be the format of how this is presented? Uh >> I was I was going to do uh because it's an amendment. I was going to do a quick, not a quick but a PowerPoint like I did last time so that the public
>> and there'll be a record and I can send that to Jennifer for the file. >> So it'll be basically the same as last time except it'll be modified to reflect the changes that were required as part of the process. >> I'll try to have a resolution to go >> and generally are we expecting a big
crowd or >> we didn't get one with the June hearing. >> Some towns you will have. One of my accounts had a town hall on this whole issue. They had about 100 people show up >> because I don't think the burrow is doing anything that's so unreasonable that would cause I mean
>> no I mean by by state they >> our strategy is a pretty good strategy. So >> I don't think the town or the people in the town are really aware of what really is being done to us. >> No, I don't think they they're not educated. We're barely educated because
you're telling us and you know and we have to read through these documents but still it's not like we're we're completely aware of what our responsibility is. John, what is the property that used to be the one next door or past the bank that was going to be developed
>> PSG plan and we can that was an interesting site >> right that's our our understanding is that PSNG it wasn't available you know what there are certain criteria for for sites to be included one of them is that
it be available that there be that there be you know it's developable available It wasn't available because PSG has no intentions of developing the property right now and they're not selling it. >> That's what we represented to the court because that's what we understood next to the one that's there. I think
right >> it's on central >> right central air it's going to be the uh block >> that was going to be >> exactly the roadway you can see that I think like the Spanish building I mean there
buildings that are underutilized a little little sprucing up >> yes >> is there a document for us to review now >> yeah uh >> this is the document that Chen emailed out >> it was emailed to the board member.
>> Yeah, this is our homework. >> I have one question. >> It's a lot of pages. >> In preparation for the public hearing, I and this is my my I've asked this question a hundred times. I'm going to ask it again. >> Does this help us with the developer
right? So, if somebody tries to tie a piece of land and the attorney comes in and starts talking, well, we're going to sue you. Can we say >> we've planned for this and basically go pound sand? That is the whole point of this process. >> You'll get compliance certification. >> Correct. You'll get a compliance
certification. What that is is a protection against builder remedy suits, >> right? >> Because the presumption of validity to overcome that certificate will be such a burden that nobody will even try to sue you. >> Uh the time the challenge >> the defense the time the challenge was back in August
>> to file your complaint with the court. Once you miss that date, >> yeah, >> you are out of luck. >> You should be good till 2035. >> 2035. Now, here's how it will work. You have your plan. You stick to the plan. And the way it's structured is that this is what you're obligated to do. If somebody comes out of left field and
tries to say, "Hey, you have 212 unmet need, unmet need units. Nothing's being built. I'm going to build it. You have to let me do it." They're outside the plan. It's up to you to decide, Burrow, whether it's a good project or a bad project. there may be a project you might think is worth looking at, but for
the most part, knowing this town, I don't see where anything will be built that would be satisfactory because it would be out of character with with the burrows community. >> So, you would be able to say no, sorry, go somewhere else because you have a plan that says it's got to go over there.
>> So, how do we meet meet our need for the 200 something? >> It's our met need. That's the beauty of it. This is how we plan to address it. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, guess what? in 2035 it'll get added to your great ground. >> The goal of this was to identify areas
where we thought that there was large tracks of land that a developer might go after. Right. >> Right. Exactly. But that that's the >> I'm assuming that was the overlay by by state. >> So what I because what I had to do was to convince the court was I had to do what's called a vacant land analysis.
>> Right. And there's a provision in the law that says if there's been no significant change from the third round, you can rely on that that they can land. I reviewed all your parcels and nothing's changed. That's how you got your RDP zero. So everything went on
that need, which means it's an overlay. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. >> So it was good that that PSCG did not is not selling because it would have been part of the >> available land that we might have had to develop, >> right? So that's good. Somebody a a able
to talk to them to say please don't sell it. >> I don't want to know. >> I was above my pay scale. I don't get involved in those discussions. >> No, but but it was a good thing that they're not available. It wasn't available. >> It would have it would have added to the
the discussion of of development and you would it would have been probably improvement in the plan and you would have seen residential. Who knows what might go there. >> How long do you think that call hearing is going to take? half hour. >> I I think for a half I with a PowerPoint
a half hour. I I I I don't anticipate >> I don't think you'll have any citizens. >> I don't believe it's been duly advert. I think the plan has actually been posted online so it's there. Okay. >> I'll double check with Anna, but it shouldn't take long. >> But the spin on this is considering how bad news the whole situation is, this is
good news for us. >> You've minimized the damage. the best solution that we could do for the community >> or the least worsted alternative. One of my >> I like least worst. That's fair. >> So, John, there there were a couple other things we had talked about. Um,
one of them was obviously completing the the master plan. >> Yes, let me address that. >> Will you be doing that? >> I am staying on for that project as well because I want to finish what I started. But >> wait till the dust clears on this. >> Well, yeah, because then you'll take a few months off to travel.
>> No, no, no, no. No, no, no. I there's no no I got to get these projects done. >> I wasn't able to really focus on the REX until this got settled because this is going to be a big discussion item in the REX. >> Absolutely. And what I'm going to do is probably a land use element amendment to
attach to that that's going to talk about the town center, what the aspirations are of a burrow, what the expectations are, what what the vision might be or should be for this so that when you do get a developer coming in >> that you have standards and so that they
don't put a block cinder block building and say that's affordable housing. No, no, no, no. We got standards. You have to meet them. And by the way, just because there's a plan and ordinances, anybody that seeks to develop still has to come to this board for site >> no matter what. >> No matter what
>> because it won't be compliant, right? It has to >> you have to come here and then make sure that you match up. You you just like any other development ordinance requirements. >> So you touched on the standards which was the second question I had. Is that going to be a part of the re-examination or is that separate? because we do talk
about creating >> right now it's in the or there's an ordinance that talks about the standards already drafted >> okay >> that's being introduced or it's already being introduced by the burrow it's already an ordinance form so take a look at that >> and that'll be heightened setback materials >> setbacks materials all of that's in
there now >> landscaping >> landscaping all of that's in there the the issue will be if there are changes you want to make I would not recommend doing that now let's get this done >> yeah of course >> it doesn't mean we can't amend or the >> part of the react.
>> How much can we amend it? And is there a time frame when we have to have it done by or you have >> to get everything done by March 15th period? >> That's that's the date. >> That's the initial adoption. But to amend the standards, you can be we could do it over and over. We can >> you can amend the standards, but we have
to be careful as long as we don't affect the calculation of units. So like for example, if you wanted to pass an ordinance, you know, we don't like this 50, we're going to do 12. We're going to go back. Can't do that. That's an example what you can't do. But if you say, >> uh, we preferred this design over this
or we want a setback of that. You can do that. >> Instead of 20 ft, we want to go 40 ft all that. >> There was absolutely no brick. >> There's been absolutely very mandate specific amount of open space that then precludes a developer from fitting in 15 years after. So we have to worry about that balance.
>> Exactly. I mean, that's what we do as planners. We we try to and the court adjudicator is kind of the guide. She's been watching over this to make sure. She was the one that suggested this isn't enough, guys. You're going to have to You have 212 units. >> The adjudicator, >> uh, Beth McManis. >> Oh, I know. >> Beth is actually one of the better ones.
I like I liked her. She was help. She wasn't adversarial. She was helpful. She was trying to get us to settlement. I could tell you in one of my towns and during a couple of mediation sessions when our special counsel was talking, the special adjudicator was here shaking her head the whole time.
>> So rude. Incredible. >> Got to love it. >> We're still colleagues at the end of the day. We try to work things out is really the bottom line. But I think the characterization that this is the best we can get right now. I think it's a characterization. >> Good job.
So the >> there are there are standards in there. Mark them up. So I would not >> that's at the very very end. Is that what I'm saying? >> Ordinance. There's a spending plan. Uh the reason we don't have time and there wasn't a lot of time to flush this out. So what I did was I took the kinds of things that I know I look for when I do
a downtown plan. >> Mhm. >> Uh and and I'm not talking downtown like city of New York Broadway. I'm talking small. I'm talking scale, you know, human scale fits within the burrow's community, sense of community.
>> When we get to that portion after the after this and we get into the re-examination and the standards, if you have examples of what other towns have done, we'd love to see visuals on that. >> I I have done that kind of work. There are many examples out there. >> We really would like to see that. >> And we could tweak the ordinances. You
just don't have the time and luxury on that. >> I'm not worried about I I'm confident we'll be fine from March 15th. >> Yeah. And then and we have to have an ordinance in place to convince the court that, you know, we're serious and plus we're required to >> have to post it on on the court. >> Yeah.
>> In the unlikely event that somebody on this board is going to have something absolutely devastating regarding this. We should get to you way before March 11th. >> If you see something in there, I would stick with the error if there's an error, right? >> Because this is a document you've seen
before. The housing element portion is all statistics. That hasn't changed. >> Yeah. the fair share plan hasn't changed other than to expand the area. So, you know, I I don't anticipate anything coming back to be devastating. >> Uh especially since this is part of the settlement, we worked it all out, but
because I I I this board is is is a smart board. You're short enough to understand the the nature of this. >> I'm really encouraging the board to review this document if if you don't have the the ability to print, you know, Jen can print copies for you if necessary.
Um, and again, be judicious in your comments. >> Isn't it wouldn't it be beneficial to us to have more of the town come to the meeting? >> No, they'll >> they'll torture us.
>> No, but I mean anything like things that have happened to date, they blame it all on the board. >> Well, and they have no understanding at all of what's involved. >> You can't let that happen. There's a there's a whole affordable housing
section on the web people can access. >> I think that the the problem is that we the people can come and complain. It's not going to change anything. >> No, I know that. But >> but they should know what's the need to shut it down. So >> ask them if they wrote a letter to the
governor or any of the leg legislators about this. >> They didn't do that because it's too hard. It's easy to come down here and complain. >> Yeah. And then write something negative about us. This is an absolute horror show for towns. I've been dealing with it. >> I think we know that. But the town
doesn't have any clue that it is being shoved down our throats. >> Listen, hearing a statement that this is something that we're obligated to do under the Mount Laurel doctrine, like it or not, >> and the alternative is
>> you don't have to do this, by the way, >> but >> expose yourself to builders around. >> What's going to happen? You might get a developer on bystate if they sell that wants to put 30 units to the acre there >> and you're going to have to do it. >> I get it. >> You will not win that case.
>> We're hanging our hopes on the competitive measure. >> Yep. >> So >> defensive. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> All you got to do is look at Anglewood clips on NW. >> Yeah, that's right. You're the poster child. I I I use them as an example. That's what happens. And you get >> that part of your presentation. >> Yeah.
>> Yes. I try to buffer the board in the kind as much as I can. >> And if the public were to come out and they want to influence how it looks with this, they should come to the planet. >> Yeah. They should come to the site plan applications or come to when we design
our uh standard details. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> That's an opportunity for them to be involved >> March uh we get this done March and then I will finish up the >> March 11th. March 11th and then April you probably have a draft document. We start working on that.
>> We'll draft a resolution. >> I'll draft a resolution. I have it for March 11th. That's why I need the settlement agreement. >> My my copy is >> we'll vote on it right there. It's all it's No, it's all has I'm with that. >> And then it needs to be signed.
>> But I I don't I don't plan on being more than a half hour. Plus, we do have a lot of questions. >> I wanted to prepare you for the hearing. I wanted this in advance. >> You know, the third round was a disaster because, you know, it was all executive sessions. It was all courtbased. There
was very little dialogue. We couldn't really work uh openly here. It was a little bit more of a of a process, open process, but I wanted to have a little time with it. I've been dealing with this for a year. It's more than a year. It's not just
here. Yes. >> Can I ask two quick questions? Oh, sorry. >> Um, what happens as we approach 2035? This reopens again. >> Oh, yeah. >> New numbers. >> New numbers. >> Okay. >> And they won't be less. >> Okay. >> 35 and whatever. And and and I don't
know what they're going to do. I don't know what they're going to do with a >> Let's say none of these units. >> No, you won't. >> Are going to be built. >> Zero. >> Are they going to add that? >> No, you won't. >> To your fifth round? I mean because then it becomes a house of cards
>> and it's all gonna fall and implode on itself because we're not making any more land. >> Yeah. >> So when do we reach maximum >> the way this legislation you don't >> never reach a maximum. There's always a renewed number.
>> I'd be shocked if in 2035 the number actually goes down. You know this year they said you need 80,000 plus. >> It'll be higher. It'll be higher. John, >> how effective is it? My my second question is >> what they want.
>> A lot of it is virtue signaling. What >> virtue signaling? >> I mean got one more one more question. >> So they're not getting out of it what they want. >> Are we are we able to once this is all set in stone? Let's say there's a change in, you know, state administration.
What's the process? Could Could we reverse the tracks on this in any way? >> You planning on running for governor? Honestly, I I you know, I'll support you. >> I don't know if I I don't think the problem the problem with >> what you're doing is you're mixing
administration to with court. You know, the judiciary versus administration, the executive branch, >> not the governor, >> the governor, the legislature, >> the courts are running this thing, >> right? >> The legislature passes the Fair Housing Act amendment. Now, could they possibly
reverse some of this stuff? >> Mhm. Certainly there's a lot of room for improvement on the process and and way we go about this. That may happen. The obligation is constitutional. That's judiciary. That's not going away. >> But the whole program that was established, there was no due process at
all. >> Absolutely none. >> Zero. I was embarrassed. >> As I said through numerous mediations and sessions, >> the towns I work for, >> I was absolutely embarrassed. >> So yes, there could be changes that are coming. I mean, if the state has any
brains, they would look at this process and retool it because it's not working. But I think from the public public policy point of view, from the state's point of view, they're going to align all the towns to one schedule. Now, third round, it was everybody had
settlement agreements all over the place because it was all declaratory judgment actions. It was, you know, it I just settled my third round cases two years ago for one of my towns and now we're doing the fourth. So, they want everybody on the same clock, but there's
there's a downside to that, too. It makes it easier to enforce because everybody's got the same schedule now, right? Fair housing, fair share is going to be out there. They're going to have a consistent schedule now by February 15th. This has to be done. By this six-month reporting, this has to be done. Can you imagine how difficult it
is to manage that when you have a hundred different settlement agreements with dates all over the place under the third round? You can't monitor it. This was a whole This whole thing is going down to monitoring at some point. They have weapons now to say what's going on in your town because everybody's on the
same schedule. So that's state policy and they're just they're trying to increase production any way they can. >> Well, Adam Gordon is the head of Fairshair Housing Center. He's the head attorney and he's the head of he was on the new governor's transition team.
>> So where you going? So, if you have trouble sleeping, this will help. Good. That'll make it worse. Either that or it'll be or you'll have a bourbon. >> I'll definitely have There's no there's no no doubt about that. >> This will be a Saturday night bourbon.
Um, >> all right. Anything else, sir? >> No. I I don't have a qu I have a problem if you want to email me questions, you know. Um, I just don't what I would admonish you to not do and and I'm sure Bob will agree. Don't discuss the plan
in email with each other right now because that could be an open meeting. >> That could be a real problem, but if you have a question, it's certainly fair to ask >> an email to John. >> Just shoot me an email and and in my email, I have a phone number. You can call me as well. >> Yeah, let's try to do that privately, an
email before the next meeting as opposed to doing it at the meeting as well. >> Unless you want to make a public statement like some members on the record, that's what I do. Could it be used against us? >> I was just about to ask question. Is there any risk? >> I I I I would I know how you feel, but
>> yeah, the last thing you need is fair share to say you shouldn't get compliance with certification because of all these statements that we made, which it's a waste of time and waste of energy. >> All right. >> So, we got to do it. >> A terrible. >> So, we'll just abstain. >> I know. Um
>> but you and I didn't vote for it. So, >> all right. Thank you, John. Um, before I open it up, one last thing I forgot to mention with the school. I think Bob told me that Jen, if you could write a memo >> regarding >> indicating it's cons, you can call me.
>> It's consistent with the >> consistent with the measure >> with the not inconsistent. >> Not inconist. >> Not inconsistent. >> Right. That's a better way to say it. >> Well, because that's the statute. If if if you had to be if the language was consistent, that's too strict to stand on because that you have to fit
perfectly in. This is all right. >> It's not harming the plan, is it? >> Gotcha. >> It is a double layer. >> All righty. Do I really need to open the meeting up to the public? >> Notice note that there's no residents in attendance. >> No, no residents in attendance. So, let's make a motion to close the meeting unless somebody has anything else to
say. >> Motion to close. >> All in favor? >> Thank you. >> You were anxious. That's