really got >> good. Sorry about any technical difficulties. I will It's 6:34 and we will call the July 9th planning and zoning commission meeting to order.
With that, we will go into roll call. I'm Kathy Brandt Rucker. Uh, Commissioner John Evans will not be here this evening. Commissioner Grant Coer will not be here this evening. Commissioner Jim Phelps >> here. >> Great. Commissioner Justin Restor >> here.
>> Thank you. Commissioner Scott Sorenson >> here. >> Wonderful. And Commissioner Daniel Spring >> here. >> Thank you. I do just check if we've got staff here. Evan Mson from Stantech >> online. Yeah. >> Okay. We'll just watch. He may join us.
Joe Palin from Stantech, their engineer. And any other city staff members present? All right, seeing none, we will move on. Does anyone have changes for this evening's agenda? >> Make a motion to approve the agenda. >> Okay.
>> Second. >> We got a first. We got a second there. Thank you. All in favor of approval of the agenda say I. >> Anyone opposed? Same sign. And our agenda is set for this evening. Uh with that, moving on. I did make a note. We
don't have any minutes currently available. I do know I'm not sure where we're at as far as progress on the minutes of prior meetings, but Mel did catch me and say she is trying some new software and she thinks she might be able to pull them from the recordings that are out there and available. So, >> good news.
>> So, she did have that and I will follow up with her tomorrow on that piece. >> Okay. >> Just a warning to everybody when we do get those minutes, there will be a bunch to approve at some point. We don't have any public hearings scheduled for this month. We I do expect we may have one next month just to put
everybody on alert there. But with that, we do have a presentation this evening. They did ask we have people's energy cooperative here and there is an untitled future development. With that, if there's no objection, I'm just going to turn the floor over to you
guys if you want to give an intro and we're happy to listen in tonight. We appreciate the opportunity and for those watching this is just anformational session. Uh there is nothing that we'll be approving or denying and they just we appreciate folks and groups that want to
come out in advance and give us a little sneak peek of what you're thinking. So >> do you want me to stand? >> You sure can stand at the podium if you're more comfortable. Sure. >> So good evening. For those of you who don't remember or weren't here, my name is Marty Walsh. I am the economic development and key accounts manager for
people's energy cooperative. So we are your member own electric cooperative and uh a few years ago when the city was uh opening up the wastewater treatment plant we were able to convert our septic
system for the orno crossings development u we were able to abandon the septic system and connect to the city's wastewater plant which thank you that's wonderful. um which left us with a 5 and a half more or less acre lot on the north end of our Orville Crossings
development which if you're either haven't been around long enough or can't recall uh when the co-op moved here in 2012 we purchased 170 acres developed that to what is now the Casey's the RV dealerships our office and then septic system was the lot that is kind of
encircled by the split rail white fence um just south of the ballfield park over there when that park when that parcel became available, we no longer need it for the septic system. We did some internal discussions on what would be the highest and best use for the cooperative for our members, especially
recognizing that with its shape, it would be difficult um not likely to attract a lot of commercial development. We'd also sat on lots for 10 plus years and and knew that there was varying appetite for that sort of thing. Um and
recognizing also that the region county in particular has a significant housing shortage and that is currently constraining our ability to grow uh beyond where we're at economically. So commercial load even is restricted by available workforce, workforce is
restricted by housing. And so we started looking at what could we do with that property to maybe do something unique, take a unique asset and do a unique project. landed on housing. And so I came to the planning and zoning committee about 18 months ago. I should
have looked at my calendar to double check and kind of gave a heads up and we looked at what could be achieved with some reasonable density increases. Um identifying what property taxes might look like in Mstead County with similar projects. I'm looking at $50 to $100,000
potentially in new property taxes to the city. Um, as well as looking at wastewater and water fees that would likely be generated, I think we identified that, um, I'm not being specific because now we have specific projects, so I don't want to encumber
them with our our concepts, but looking at 1 to$ 1.5 million in additional revenue over the next 10 years for the city of Oronokco if we could do uh maybe something in the 10 to 12 unit per acre density on those properties. We we can we weren't obligating anybody
to anything, but we uh then put out an RFP and we solicited some development ideas from some folks and we're doing that concurrent with the zoning rewrite process. Um we had two developers that we selected to move forward with. In the meantime, we've actually switched two of
those developers. Um one of them has has stepped out of the project. They had some other priorities they were working on, but within a very similar time frame, we had a company kind of come late to the party. Okay, so we have still have two people for you today. The objective today is talk about some
of the potential development ideas that these developers are looking at on that property. No decisions have been made, no transactions have been made, no zoning requests, reszoning requests have been made. Um, so what I'd like to do is have each of these two gentlemen speak for about 10 minutes. Um, have it be a
barely back and forth conversation. So if you have questions, but they also may have questions for you of what the city's interested in. Um, one of our objectives here beyond adding to the tax base is also just understanding the development process and what's viable in the communities we serve. We serve nine
communities in southeastern Minnesota that we'd like to uh all see be successful in growing their housing base as well. Um, before I get started, do you any of you have or before these gentlemen get started, do you have any questions for me? >> Oh, don't cry.
I was just going to say for anybody that's watching online or watching the recording later, just of the nine communities you serve, just so everyone's aware, your headquarters, your office actually is located in Orugo, which is where this land is right now to that office area. Just for
clarification for everybody here. Just wanted to make sure >> Yes, that's why we own the land. We we do own some land in Elgen that we're selling the last of also. Um, and so this is lots of real estate going on at the co-op office the last couple weeks.
Um, the other thing I'll say is that we did have some preliminary conversations with city staff, um, administrator Baker and then also, uh, Joe Failen and Evan just on what some of the ideas are out there, but recognizing those were just is there major issues that we were
unaware of, we weren't thinking of, but we've we've talked about some about the DWISMA issues with water infiltration. How do we want to deal with that? Because we're right between your two wells. What work needs to go on with any potential annexation or water service that's required for um the 17 lots to
the west of this property? And again, no no decisions are out there. So, it's we're very open to figure out if there's a way that this development could maybe facilitate any work that needs to happen around anything else. So, >> thank you. Justin, did you have a question?
I guess the only question that I have as we go along with that and those 17 units that are uh to the west are are are part of the township um is the township going to be involved with us being notified of what's going on and their input that there is with
that? Um only if that's a requirement of the city. Um we've been told that which is a city decision, a city project, including with the water there. Uh but if that was a request, I think there'd be no problem with reaching out to them and as part of the zoning process. >> Yeah. Well, the only thing is normally
within like 500 feet of what there is on our zoning that we normally have with that and of course >> all of those people that there are behind there in that would be in that range and that's part of what we have for code. >> Is do you know is there is the intent to
annex that with the water service or will it remain in the township? Um they it's a friendly annexation agreement Ryland if I'm correct off of that and so they have to come to us where we can't go to them.
>> Can you require annexation provide water service? >> Uh I don't Ryland do you know >> it requires annexation? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So I mean >> typically they would reach out petition to be annexed. >> Yeah. that's when the water, my
understanding, would go through >> and then I mean we've kind of looked at it down the road on on some things in the future, but I mean it's right at this point. I'm just, you know, kind of curious because I think that >> those are our the benefit here is that those are our members also. So, we definitely have an interest in maybe
>> Yeah. And I I think it would just be wise to involve them with whatever there is for for that and get their input in it too because it's going to affect their housing values as well. And whatever comes of all this, there would most likely be a public hearing
and that would be their opportunity because even though they are living in technically the township, they're surrounded by the city, they'd be next to this and they would be within so many feet as far as that notification of a public hearing. So >> yeah, absolutely. And and to that
reminded me I think the other point is based on maybe the discussion tonight our then our next step will pursue the resoning whether it be to R2 or development flex or whatever is the appropriate party after that's kind of our intent for the next step and I think that a lot of that will come up as part
of that process. >> Well thank you. Any other questions up front or we'll let you kick it off? >> I go alphabetical order which is you I didn't discuss that part. Would you like me standing or sit and talk or >> whatever's most comfortable for you
there? >> I'm real happy just sitting and chatting if that's all right. >> Works. Pointing the safety phone got a word today. >> So I'm Jamie Judish. Uh I'm a developer.
Work mostly in southern Minnesota, mostly southeastern. >> Um and I'm I live in the township. And so when this came up, uh, I I was very interested because we >> Oh, one second. Evan's in the waiting room.
>> Let Evan. >> Yes. >> Oh, we better let Evan in. >> So, I live in the township and I've always wanted to do something in Oronokco and it's never come together. And when this opportunity came about quite some time ago now, um we responded
and we took a look at it. Uh love working in the smaller communities. Uh my group built the uh downtown apartment building in Pine Island. That's what the city council wanted there. That's how that one came together. Uh we just opened last week a 39 unit building in
Cassen. Uh right next to the high school, the middle school, and the elementary school, right in between all three. Um, we've got a town home development going on in EOTA currently and just anyway Rochester is great, but I'll work in any of the surrounding
towns in a minute before Rochester if given the opportunity. Um, so with that, this site, it's a complicated site because of its limited depth. Um, we've had the, uh, we usually use GCubed as our engineer. They took a cursory look at it. Uh, there may be some easement
challenges and everything else. So there may need to be some horse trading or other things that come together to make it all fit and work, but we think the site lends itself based on its physical characteristics and its location to kind of medium density. And
we just have some things shown that fit. So if there's an interest, you know, if if it's about maximizing density, we could just keep putting down small buildings. So, one of the things too, whatever we put in, we're big on sightelines, view corridors, and keeping
green space. So, yes, you're always looking for higher density cuz that's the only way to make anything pencil out, but we still want it to be attractive. So, we want it to look nice from the road, but we also want it to look nice. Nothing's ever nice enough for neighbors when you put something new in, but we
want it to look nice that direction, and we want to make it an appealing place for people to actually live. you know, it's not housing for the sake of housing, but it should be something that has pride in ownership and that stays well maintained and and the HOA and everything that'll have to be formed would take care of that. So, we are wide
open. Um, we we could do apartment buildings that are small. This footprint is for a 32 unit building that's shown on the u on the south end of the site. We've got some town homes down that that lay out well. We can do different mixes of town homes. uh we could do bigger
buildings if there was an appetite for it. I mean really we're wide open typically when I come into a community you know it's it's sitting down it's having these meetings I know there's been resistance to multif family in Oronokco in the past that still may be the case that's fine we don't really
have an agenda it's really more about it's your land what makes you happy it's your city what makes you happy what's the best highest use to come together that that kind of checks everybody's boxes and we're ready to
basically basically go um I think we have a group that's more or less together. Uh we we'd be starting a new ownership entity, whatever it looked like, whether it's for sale, probably for sale or if there any rentals. Um but I think we have a group of investors ready to go. We've got architects,
engineers, everybody's pretty much ready. So, if we could kind of come to terms as to what everybody wanted, get it figured out, our plan would probably be to break ground in the spring. Um, as far as concerns and things, uh, I don't
have detailed geotechnical, but I think there's a whole pile of black dirt sitting on that site. So, if there's any opportunities to relocate some of that dirt and some of these other things, that would be nice. And I I know we're going to have a lot to figure out about
pulling utilities into the individual units, how how we best do that uh without disrupting um sorry, which is Shady Lake Shady Avenue too much because that's an expensive road to dig into. And so we'd
want to we'd want to figure out how to minimize that exposure in terms of inconvenience for people and cost. But otherwise, we think it's all imminently doable. And uh it's just really a matter of what is the mix.
Also, you know, uh when when DBS was looking at this one, they had a higher density play. That was fine. Uh they only were interested in half the site. That was fine. We were interested then taking the other and doing something that would be a lower density. Um have
been working with the Rochester Area Coalition recently. They're working with us right now on we've got 36 units of forplex town homes that are going in in Iota and uh with the coalition they're pushing for owner
occupied housing and very on board with potentially bringing them in if they again what do people want to do? So it's not section 8, it's not anything else, but essentially we use their funds to buy down the infrastructure cost and carry and then
we repay them with each unit sale. But not having to have all that extra capital in and the interest on it saved us probably close to 20,000 a unit when it comes time to sell. And so we pass those savings on then to the end users. I think I've seen some of those and this
just a quick question where the HOA as it's set up actually put stipulations in there that they have to be owner occupied or they can't be like an Airbnb rental >> for 5 years. >> Yeah. For a period of time, whatever it might be >> and that's that's the the stipulation
set forth by the coalition. >> Okay. Yeah. That's that's what I've seen similar housing. So it's not we're putting up a giant rental apartment building. It's there's owner occupied units. >> Yes. and we're we're really happy with any of it. Uh we have uh a lot of rental
units that we build that we hold. We've got management company. We don't have our own management company, but we have those that we partner with. So, we're we're happy to mix and match and just figure out what makes the most sense. But I'm a huge fan for community sake to do owner occupied housing where we can
because I think that's the best for the long term. The one thing that I see is uh going to three stories is going to be an issue in this town. Uh we just don't have the fire department to be able to handle that with three stories. We can only do two. >> Okay. So that's going to going to be an
issue. >> Probably let the fire department address that. Don't >> because with the current >> I can say right now you're probably going to have a very difficult time with the threetory high density type housing situation. Um, >> we don't currently have a ladder truck
>> and with is it are you locked in at that fiveyear after that it can be rented as Airbnb that type of situation or is it >> this isn't anything I'm setting this is just the terms set forth with the to use
funding the terms we agreed to to use funding from the coalition they do it as a case by case >> okay >> I so uh Joe Marie Morris just retired and when she was kind of pushing everything forward. Um they had very specific goals that they'd
laid out and we were I think their third or fourth project. Um so they sort of had a framework but according I haven't seen the other agreements but I was told they were all sort of similar but tailored for the individual needs of the site and the project. >> Um I'm meeting now with uh
Ryan. Um he's the head I think the new head tomorrow. can't remember his name. Or Ryan with a C. >> Yeah, it's like a heart C sound. >> Anyway, I'm meeting him tomorrow at the Yota site so he can tour it and see it and we'll find out what their directives are going forward. But I got to believe
that with Mayo and Homestead County being involved and Dave Dunn is still involved as far as I know that owner occupied housing is still the primary focus. >> So I mean you just see a better investment in the community. >> I think so. Well, it depends. When we do
rentals, um, we really maintain our stuff cuz the minute it gets scuzzy, you can't, it doesn't make sense anymore. So, like I don't have any concern when we put a rental community together. But generally speaking, I mean, owner occupied
tends to do well, but at the same time with something like this, you need to have the right HOA structure and you have to have people that are diligent that are staying on it and enforcements for it. And HOAs are often a four-letter word. And so we try to keep that we try
to keep it as much in its lane as possible, but once people take it over, they can essentially do what they will with it. >> But once you when you set up the right framework, it tends to carry forward pretty well. >> So I I think that last question might be
the same for both developers. So I want to end up giving Grant chance kind of run through his project also. >> Yeah. No, that's fine. Um, and one thing I can pass this out for you. Um, one thing I'll say about the water access is when we I had a very preliminary conversation with Joe. Um, the thought
was knowing that eventually there would be a need to access water come off 12th, which is the street on the north side there. um that would be needed to access for the township houses that there could be that'd be an opportunity to
coordinate on making sure that that um whatever was installed could work for both so we wouldn't have to dig twice. Um so just a relevant full thought on that. One thing if I may, density when it comes to property taxes
and paying for treatment plants and everything is the best friend you're ever going to have when done right. Can also be terrible when done wrong, but without having to do a big investment in a ladder truck. Uh we have done taller buildings that
have attachment points and things that are all done and approved with the fire departments so they know exactly what it is. They have keys to everything and they know that if they need to access parts of it, they have the ability to do it and that's design. So, not to say
they'd go along with it and agree, but it's becoming more common practice because it doesn't make sense for a smaller community to go buy a what is a truck now? Half million dollar truck for one. >> No, they're 1.2 million plus. >> Okay. 1.2 million. >> Way above that. So, >> okay. So, yes, even worse. So there are
ways of getting around it and making it work potentially, but they just have to be well vetted early on in the process to see if it makes sense or not. >> And and again, just as as what we looked at as a community, so you're aware, uh we're not looking at at heavy density
units inside of this town. You know, we we just want this to be the town the way it is. And we just went through and and our our minimum lot size is 13,000 square ft. So it gives you some idea with the direction of everybody in the
city wants to go, you know, and and so I mean going in and and trying to have too tight of a of of a structure is not necessarily the way the residents in this town want want it to be. Just so >> like I said, we're happy with anything. We could even break this out into
individual single family lots. >> No, I'm just, you know, just to give you some idea and direction of what we're talking about because that's just the way the community wants to to look. And then you know we don't >> we like the look and the feel of the single family but I will tell you just from having rewritten the city code in
the last year all the work that we did talking to all the community members as we did that for months on end and having different focus groups and meetings that there is a need for some type of housing that is not strictly your single family
fivebedroom 3 to fivebedroom because we do have a lot of adult children that live in town and would like to live in continue to live in town. And we have different folks that have approached me that are, you know, looking for moving
out of the 3 to fivebedroom home and looking for different residences that they maybe as they age or go through family transitions are looking for just a two-bedroom. And so I do know that there is a need for some of this type of mixed housing. As we look at it here on
the paper, it says, you know, one one to two units or two to three bedrooms and then, you know, some looks like on the paper here, 32 units, it says in three stories. And again, like we said, we don't have a ladder truck, but that would be a discussion with the fire department involved.
>> Well, and again, these are just ideas that fit and kind of how things lay on the site. >> And we don't want to add a million and a half dollars to the cost of your development so we can buy a ladder truck, but we sure would love to if you really want. a lot of incentives. >> Yeah.
>> No. And then looking at that those units again, you know, with like Kathy was saying, you know, those look really good. The only thing I'm looking at is the apartment thing. It's kind of >> and that's just that's just a we haven't listened to you.
>> Okay. So, next and we'll logical. >> Yeah, absolutely. I'm live in S Brandon, South Dakota over by Sou Falls and um let's see what uh I uh
how it kind of all started is I I I have farmland that we've owned for 40 years up in Aberine. So, we're doing a 1031. So, we're selling it and and buying land and and doing developments and stuff. In fact, I've got uh 43 acres
across the the road here actually right here. I own that piece there. So, we'll see each other again. >> Okay. Okay. Very good. >> Um but anyway, that's just a little of the background. And I was looking more
at a retirement community. Okay. um and in a sense just kind of work with the uh craftsman to come up with some different options. Initially the first one is was one large building threetory
um potentially as option and a community center or a group area at the at the end use that that's
and then um so that'd be one option or it could be a twotory alo and with attached variet that is there. So that that'd be the initial thought. And then the other options are is the next one is
where in a sense you break that down and you have um five or six. Well, the black scissor and that initially it was drawn for threetory, but you could do it as twotory also with
attached garages and a and then a community building at the end also. Um and then the la the last two are is is showing potential um
like for flexes for retirement community. Um, and this is where each person, each couple or family or who, whoever would in the retirement communities would have uh their own their own garage, their own front door,
wouldn't have any steps um uh with that. And that's the that one. And then the next one also would probably actually a better solution because of the elevations and stuff along um on
that site. >> So would those be uh owner occupied is what you're looking >> Well, these would be I I would end up owning them. It'd be a retirement community where they uh rent from me. >> Would there be an age restriction off of
that? Yeah, it'd be something like 55 or 60 something like that. >> You'd run that with an HOA the same way or would you ever How would you run that to be able to maintain it to keep it where? Because I mean when you look at it, you go down 52,
>> that's the first thing that you see that there is, you know, that that's part of the city, you know, and and that. So, I mean, you want something that's going to be look good that there isn't welcoming to the city, >> right? Exactly. >> Campers.
>> Um, >> well, you can still see the campers, but you'll see the first thing that you see campers. >> Well, that's what everybody sees in the distance, right? >> So, would it would probably have have a third party's contract with some third
party to to manage it and maintain it. I know one of the things that's kind of come up in the past is we look at the one development that's looking at getting started right now across from two sisters >> is we were looking also on um snow
removal and and all that part of what there is would you be take care of all of that type of stuff >> bond care all yeah that's in a when people are in a retirement they don't want any of the lawn care knowing of the stumbler I'm I'm with you.
>> Yeah. >> No, I I just that's one of those things that came in. >> And we'd have to have you have rules where you know their patios uh you can't have maybe you can have a grill and stuff but not excessive.
>> Go ahead. Go ahead. No. Go ahead. >> So are all your plans in that idea that you would be the renter for whatever of those plans you're showing us right now? >> Right. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I have to say that I I think that the
retirement community could fit a lot better than large apartment buildings. Um it fills two niches and that's needed right now. Um in the city, the things that have been asked for. Um, so
logistically speaking, I like I like that the lower buildings with um that are more directed towards the I saw you have potential
>> which not not the giant building. >> I mean I don't know what that would look more than 11 buildings. It will be the second one. Well, it was more than 11, but the the logistics of coming off driveways off of
>> Elm with it not being in the city, that would be probably a hangup for that. Um, we don't know. >> Yeah, the second to last would be 11 buildings. Are they approximately the same number of units between 11
buildings? And >> they uh the and it's however you lay it out. The very last one, the last one has 11 and the other one, this one has 14 or something. >> But yeah,
>> it all Yeah. How it all works out. >> But those would be zero entry. >> Yeah. Almost. It sounds like almost potential for uh not quite assisted living facility, but like stepping into what I was hoping
for. I Hey, retirement community, but for myself, my grandmother was in apartment complex before and they had meals each day and a it was someone to check it's a way for someone a nurse to
check on them. >> Yeah. you know, and that's all it kind, you know, it'd be just that very basic piece. >> Okay. >> Or this is me thinking out loud kind of or also maybe a memory care if that's
probably eight steps down the road or or maybe on other property where hey um a couple someone has problem they drop them off at the adult daycare but then they're they're back home. Um and both
those it's a lot less um you don't have as high a skilled person taking care of them and regulations and everything else I say jumping into nursing care in Minnesota is a
>> very different conversation than >> but I think that a a level of there's probably some gray area there >> but I I could see where where this would be definitely a plus that type of a situation >> like the idea of the >> I I do too
>> of the zero entry the accessible living. >> Um I do know there's a big need for all ages. So I, you know, think a little think twice about the throwing an age limit on there, but that's that's just because of the probably some of the
folks that are in the circles I go where there's the T-ball crowd that's out there playing and there are other mothers and fathers out there that, like I said, are looking through family changes and still looking for some housing needs that might fit their sizes of their families as they change and
grow. So I both of the concepts I think lay out pretty good examples of what they would look like. >> So it's just the >> One of the things I could say though that did come up when we've gone through
other discussions and had hearings is making sure that the roads that we do put through here are accessible to emergency equipment, emergency vehicles. making sure that the turning radiuses would fit what's needed on the corners,
making sure that the sight lines are visible so that we're not blocking on corners sight linewise. Those are definitely some of the discussions that we've had previously come up. And as you guys all mentioned, you know, making sure that our city services can service appropriately. So
if we do have a fivestory building, not that there's there's nothing here that says five, it says three, but that we have equipment that could take care of our citizens that are living in all stories of all buildings. >> Yeah. Whether it's designed into the building >> one way or the other. Yeah.
>> It's designed into the building. Um, probably the other thing I've heard mentioned when we were talking senior housing on prior developments that ended up being more mixed use is that, you know, senior housing, making sure that you've got a main floor bedroom if there's a senior housing. That you don't
call it senior housing and put all the bedrooms on the second floor. Uh, you don't call it senior housing and just do a single very tiny garage. you even with some of the smaller garages, you do a twocar garage because that'll fit your car and a deep breeze or two very small
cars. So, I I do know that that has come up in discussions before as well, just functional housing. >> So, any questions from up front here remaining? >> Good discussion. >> I do have a couple questions. So,
I guess Oronoko has found out the hard way already when it's owned by one individual. Though I guess I have concerns with that side of it just being um like Oronco Estates and what we're dealing with there. I'm sure we were assured that it'd be upkept and they'd pay their bills on time and that it
would stay in a certain demographic of like 55 or older, whatever it might have been when they decided that. And we're dealing with issues there too now. And so I'm concerned on the reassurance of keeping it at 55 if that's what we're going to market it as for long term. >> Mhm.
>> And then you know going to your housing projection right now. The 12 unit side that looks a little bit more feasible than stacked apartment buildings. We've dealt with this already on the other side where they don't want apartment buildings here. And so coming up with
solutions that probably meet that better is going to be your best bet moving forward. And there's just a lot of concern when it comes to one individual owning all these because you may be very diligent in it but all of a sudden whatever it might be you move to Florida.
>> The problem with the other one was the business model did the business model fail or was it a management failure or all the above kind? it could have been and so that's where we have that single source of failure right where if we have owners invested and then the city is
able to enforce code maybe that's something that we compensate for but I can see that being a concern >> the nice thing with the four black you can roll them out potentially too as the demand is needed >> all right
>> any other questions or >> with this drawing here with all of these multi story buildings. Like I know this is just a rough draft, but like feasibility like are you needing to go higher? Like what is the
square footage that either of you are looking for for like a single unit on one story? >> We for for us, we're not really presenting anything. We're just showing ideas that fit.
So, I mean, I think given the location and um u over by two sisters, that's Dragon's project, isn't it? >> I mean, we would be slotting underneath what I've seen his, but I can't remember what their square footages are, but weren't those starting in like the 450
to 500 range. >> So, I mean, we'd be looking to slot if they were for sale units, we'd be slotting below that. So, something very nice. It could be, you know, a mix of uh forplex units with one car, like a big onecar garage. That's what we're doing
in EOTA. Uh we could do twocar garages somewhere probably in the 1150 to 1,600 maybe 1,700 square foot per unit range depending. Um
it it part of it on on like the town homes and things depends on what is your driving factor. If we want to keep cost down and if we want to have units that can potentially sell in the low 300s, we can do really nice units but we have to go two levels. We just can't. Once you
start spreading out your roofing and foundation cost just it it almost automatically throws you into 400 grand anymore. So, it's it's figuring out that mix of what do you in the community want to see? Because we can build all of it
and I think we can be profitable doing all of it where it makes sense. It's just what is it that you as a community want. So, but I I like that that probably three to 400, maybe three to four and a quarter as an operating price range if
we're doing them for sale. Um, but we can also do a mix of rentals and stuff too depending. And when we do this kind of rental housing, we always do them all as individual bids so that they can be sold to owners or they can rent to own or or
other and be owner occupied in time. >> Appreciate. >> Oh, I with the uh three story is it a tech? So, it's almost a technical problem, but
Then then it also it's um kind of >> it's it's outside of what the community wants as a community. >> Kind of want and >> you could watch the other meetings when discussions go
>> slow but good. >> Yeah. >> Right now we brought a threetory building in. It would be very difficult without additional cost to the developer because we don't have a ladder truck and then we don't have a building to hold
the ladder truck. So >> you wouldn't have an agreement with a another >> we do have mutual aid agreements actually >> but we we'd prefer to face things up front and figure out how we can use our
resources here appropriately. So, make sure that whatever we do bring in, we can support. >> So, if I supply a ladder truck, are you going to support four-story apartments? >> No. >> No, not at this town. It won't work. >> No, that's not what the town wants.
Okay. That's not And you know, people have been pretty straightforward with that. You know, that's why you're looking at the lot sizes where the lot sizes are set at at 13,000. You know, that's the smallest, you know. So that's that's just the way the people want to
be. That's that's what we wanted our community to look like. We want it to be this way. >> I think the big thing moving forward is it needs to somewhat match the current scheme of the city, right? And also if we have to deviate from that
slightly, then it's meeting and filling a niche that that we're after. um whether it be lower price housing for adult kids or uh assisted sim se
semiassisted living retirement community >> like I think that it really those are the those are the key things from my perspective is that it should blend well with what's happening now and it meets
one of the like the the missing pieces that we're we have right I think that the demographics in our talent when you talk about a population going from cradle to grave, we do really really well in the middle. >> Really well. >> Yeah.
>> What we don't do is that young adult, we don't do take care of our seniors. I mean, those are some of the niches that we really struggle with in this town that as you have adult children, they're having to move out of town temporarily until they get more established and
they, you know, so those are some of the transitional housing needs if you want to think of it that way. >> I've I've heard some people that, hey, there's a lot of people that are in houses and I was that want to move into out of it if it's just a couple.
>> Yes. though I I also hear that sitting on I know city staff also do they do receive calls from time to time wondering about town houses wondering about the development wondering what's going to be coming in so >> the R2 is is a part of what we want to do the other thing to keep in mind too
is if you want an apartment two miles down the road you can go through all the apartments you want okay and they're even building more of them you know you know so you you want apartments you go But for us to be able to have
what we want the look of the city to be is is what we really want to look at. You know, it keeps the values up to a >> and I don't know that we're against apartments or four apartments or but I think just the population in town right now that's what we've heard for feedback. No, we just brought it up
because we know what these apartments do for the taxes in the community and it's uh Oronoko may be the exception, but most of the communities around are all fighting their budgets and uh >> so it makes a huge when you do it, but
that's why you got to do it right. >> I have seen properties that are wellmaintained. I've haven't toured the one on Pine Island, but I've certainly seen the pictures and saw it as it was being developed. >> We sold that um two years ago, but
that's a we sold it to a wellestablished group that I I was in it maybe six months ago and >> they're doing a >> I've seen that one and I've seen the development even in Rochester where it's it's actually single family houses, but it's a rental community of single family
houses. That's very nicely done as well. side. >> Yeah, it's over on the west side over there by >> routines. >> So, I' I've seen that one and I have toured some of those as well. Um, but the property management is key on
anything there and that can make or break any particular community, whether it's a retirement community or not a retirement community, any type of housing. And along with that, I think having a strong HOA drafted to go with all of this would
certainly help protect our city growth when you talk about what do we want the look and feel and what we heard from all the feedback working on the zoning ordinance. So, I do appreciate everybody coming here and giving us your time, bringing us your ideas. We know this is just concepts and ideas and we
appreciate that. So, >> um so thank you all very much. Uh we'll probably we can we can visit on the hallway guys. Um but I think the last couple things you know we'll come back soon with the zoning request likely. Um
again just in talking to Joe and Evan or probably at that point talk about some of the potential whether we might see a variance or a setback or orienting setback certain ways because the unique shape of that lot. And I know one of the things we talked about was when DOT granted the city on Lake Shady Avenue,
it is a far wider than necessary right ofway. And because there will be need a need for rightaway on the Elm Street side when it is eventually annexed, um staff proposed potentially a swap of, you know, 20 ft on like shift our lot over 20 ft or something which gives you
the ability to do a to code road for Elm Street without encumbering like Shady Avenue. Um that is a far more technical conversation, but we we have skirted around the edges of those and we have considered some of those want to revisit as well. But for any project, it makes
life a lot easier as we were looking at it with the engineer. >> Yep. >> I will let you guys continue on those technical details. Please enjoy those. >> Uh we will look forward to a future meeting at some point where there's more discussion and potentially an application or some other documentation
for us to review. But we do appreciate the concepts and the drafts. Then what I will do is I've got my two copies that I will give to the city here so they can scan them in and just put it out with our other information on the website. So if that's okay. >> Appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. I hear you.
>> Thank you. I'll take a just brief moment here to reset. I give these to Mel and then she can scan them and that's okay. Or I'll scan them in and maybe I'll just email them to Mel Mel and she can get them posted.
All right. Well, I appreciate everybody coming tonight to listen to the presentation. Like I said, there is no application. They are still in the process of trying to figure out even which developer they want to go with, but I know we've gotten a lot of feedback from the city and residents
over the last year or so. Uh, next I had just new business. I have no additional information on this one for this evening, but just as an FYI to everybody that one of the owners had approached the city. There's just
potential development discussion going on that they are looking at. We may see something at our August meeting. I don't know if there will be a presentation, an application, a hearing. I I really don't have any details, but some land at 710 Minnesota Avenue. There's some more down
just down the road going towards past Dollar General down that way. So just >> in front of the storage areas between that and >> just a little further down past that I believe. But yeah, it's down in that neck of the woods. So just >> on that side. >> Yeah, >> on the west side.
>> Yep. Just something more. I know >> that there was just a little bit of discussion and I'm not sure quite where they're sitting on that. I have not been in on any of those discussions, but just that there's just some talk there. So maybe it'll be more of a conversation
like this next month or maybe there will be something on paper for us to actually take a look at. >> But just when I hear about things, like I said, on some of this other stuff, I just like to keep it on the agenda one way or the other so things don't just drop off into nowhere. I'd like to keep
them out there. So, one way or the other, that will either be some kind of discussion next month or it might be at the bottom under old business just to for us to keep our eye on it and some somebody's watching for it. Next, we have uh under old business
moving on officer position elections. We are two people short for this month. So, we you know have a couple choices. One, we can delay it till we do have everybody here. uh we can go ahead and have we need a vice chair, we could really use a secretary to help with the
minutes and we've got some potential software to help with that. So that might make the secretary role easier, more attractive. Uh I guess there is always the other option that you take in many meetings is the people who are not present end up with new titles, but
don't seem real fair to do that. So any thoughts if we want to delay a month or let's put it out to everybody's here. >> Okay, we'll we'll do that. Next, we do have progress on the RFP draft. I know the thought process there.
Initially, we had said we were looking to do something to support our zoning services. It's been many years. We're going kind of on a a rolling contract that has not been reviewed for many, many years. And just to make sure we're using our taxpayer dollars wisely, we
talked about taking a look at that. you guys were going to take that back to city and my understanding was maybe look at a bigger review of all of that to roll in some of the other potential services that go along with >> that. That's going to be delayed for a while
>> until we get some staff >> because staff will be writing >> any kind of um RFP and right now we don't have the staff to that is that was decided I think before
Jason even left that >> we would hold off on that staff would write it but also that we would hold off on those discussions till later in the if you're going to get through gold rush first off of that. Go through our budget that changes
>> and our budget because we've got a budget that's set up now for our budget meetings that there are so with the city. So, >> we do you guys want to revisit that decision or talk about if you want I know we had interest. I believe Grant said he would be interested in helping
draft. I know we've leaned on League of Minnesota Cities before when we wrote our last draft RFP. I think we'll we'll look at see who comes in for for staff because we did talk a little bit about it and it was back that the staff was going to do it
>> instead of grant. Okay. So that's kind of the direction that we had discussed it. So that's >> okay. Well, if you if you have any changes, please bring them back. But I'll just leave it on next month to see where our progress is. And it sounds like by next month it'll still be gold rush. So probably not too much unless
you guys change something there. Uh, next we had just if anybody has any updates on the development of the Pine Southwest, those town houses over by two sisters proposed. I >> I haven't heard anything and I know John was >> John was going to maybe check on that. So, since he couldn't make it tonight,
we don't have an update there. >> Uh, planning anything about that, Ryland? >> Yeah, >> about uh the Pine Southwest, >> the township or the town houses. I mean, >> they'll be asking for a extension on the cup. >> Okay. another year extension. They still
plan to do it. Just met a their architect passed away last summer. So, he's working with a new architect. >> Okay. >> And because of that, it's kind of delayed everything. So, they'll I think it's going to be on the agenda to ask for a one-year extension on the CU. >> Okay.
>> Okay. You still have to actively do >> no changes to the C cup, just an extension. Time extension. >> I'm sorry. >> No changes to the actual what was approved, just a time extension. have not seen anything other than what we also hear. >> Okay. >> Yeah, that's that's the last I saw too.
So, I know city staff does get questions on when are those going to be built. Again, back to that whole issue of multi-generational housing. >> And it's it's just finances, too. You look at what interest rates are and everything else right now is >> I think they would sell. But
>> yeah, I'm just saying it. But, you know, for developer, too. >> All right. Well, if we have any more reports or updates on that next month then uh we had talked about putting together some workshops. I >> think those were for the RFPs. So, >> so kind of delayed on those.
>> Those were rolled in with RFPs. So, those will be indefinitely postponed until we get staffed. >> Okay. Um, I we did chat last month about incorporating notices to our other city departments as we get applications and
public hearings that come through. I did get the opportunity to talk with Evan. Um, me and Mel have talked briefly about, you know, working that in. So, what I'll probably do is I'll just work with them to make sure that there's a distribution list so >> other groups do get included because I
would like public works to know >> whether it's an application that's come in that we may not see even here at PNZ, but it it's good for all those areas to just have notice when things are coming, whether they're commercial or a consumer housing type situation.
uh code enforcement. We did talk about that and we that's come up probably not every single meeting since I've joined planning and zoning, but for a planning and zoning group, we don't necessarily do the enforcement piece of it here, but
one of the thoughts was we look at just code enforcement in general because some of our code with the planning and zoning, it does come up with cups after the fact if things are enforced or not. Some of our city code actually has
enforcement mechanisms written into the coding and I had talked briefly to Evan on that one as well and I've talked to others here on PNZ that one of the things you can do is potentially write a section of code that would apply to our planning and zoning. If there is nothing
that says here is what the enforcement penalty or whatever might be, it would default to this code and they could write it. Should the council want to do it, they could extend it so it covers all city code to whatever it comes out to. That gives you guys at least an enforcement tool to use for the rest.
>> I think that's good that we need to look into that without doubt. You know, >> there are definitely >> we're taking advantage of that and figuring that >> but there are other communities >> nothing gets done. >> There's other communities out there that do have something similar. So it it's not just a tool then for planning and
zoning, but it would be a tool for the rest of council to run with as I say. So, um, Evan was going to maybe check and see if there's some samples or examples or something that we could look at for a future meeting, but it will not be the August meeting. Just so everybody's aware, that's probably out
there a little bit, too. Uh, we did have a question. It came up, you know, whether there's different towns doing data center moratoriums, different lawsuits, a lot of things out there in the news. With our recent ordinance rewrite that we did adopt, it is in effect. Should we
get an application, it would have to go through a process that would require a public hearing before anything would be able to be approved or anything at this point is my understanding. So there would be a cup requirement and it would be something that would come in front of
here before anything could be approved by city council and opportunity for all of our residents to >> and and we had a really good session that there was for LMC talking about data centers. >> Did you go to that at all or
>> uh I think I caught part of that that was the the code enforcement, right? >> Yeah. and talking about how this how they come in and and delay and everything else that's associated with that. Um and uh it's just it's throughout Minnesota that that's going
on right now that that people are trying to to get into Minnesota for for doing that. But it's um it was just kind of interesting. I've got the notes. You've got the notes too off of that that maybe >> you can send out to all of P&Z if
there's any notes or handouts just to help us with our >> those too. And you've got those too right off of >> Sorry. >> Did you Did you pull the the slides? >> Yes, I got it. >> Yeah, if we could get those. >> Yeah. So that's >> send those out to all P&Z
and I realized as I looked down this list and was crossing things off. I did bypass accidentally the just a discussion on the flute map. So, future land use plan map and that's the map behind everything that kind of underlies all of ours our zoning code and it's
it's time for us to take a look at that again. With that, I think it'll I've asked Stantech Evan there to take a look at what do we need to do to make sure we do things in an orderly process there and make sure we do get that scheduled
for future meeting. We'd probably have want some input from other city departments just to make sure what they're seeing and get their input as well. So it might be one evening we do have a couple folks here from other areas that we do invite us guests to give us their feedback or they can give it to us in writing as well. Whatever
seems best for them and their schedules. So next up dropping back to I we've got just >> they're getting tired looking at me. >> Yeah. Um, if there's any monthly incoming
zoning applications questions, >> we don't have a monthly zoning report here, but some months we have received that. I know right now we're short staff, so I'm expecting next month we'll have two months worth to look at. Last one I last two I have here are just some other things that have been on our
agenda in the past. I haven't heard anything on them for a while. So just kind of FYI the that gold rush crossings that prior development request my understanding is that process that it come through there was a deadline on it and that has expired. So
>> and it went back to what it was originally. >> So did they come back it would have to start all over again. >> Yep. >> Um and then there is a driveway request that is an older one. Yeah. So that's just going to be out here until we hear one way or the other someday. So, does
anybody have anything else that we need to chitchat about or add to >> motion to adjourn? >> I would say we need to just remove Sorry, we just need to remove Gold Rush Crossings in the driveway request. There's no point spending any more time
>> with it till they come back. I mean, if he wants to do something with the driveway, he's still got to come back and do something with it. So, >> yeah. I mean, you own the property now, but it's it's a right turn lane and >> how you're dealing with that that there is. So, >> so anyway, that's all I got. So, you got
Did you make a motion? Did I hear? >> Yeah, I made a motion to adjurnn. >> Okay. Second. >> Second. There. We've got a motion. All in favor of adjourn say I. >> I. All oppose. Same sign. Thank you. 7:30 to order.
>> That was interesting. Yeah, I appreciate I'm wanting