##VIDEO ID:LOgiNE2SVd8## you would think but we're in business so I'll get it repeat next year and um $150 door so I really just unlock and then I use the AL to unlock it the inside but I still have all the you know one day one day we get you'll know I made it when my my keychain get L but that's where we're at okay we're pling how was your Tri oh you told me got stck did I get to leave again tomorrow your laugh reminded me where you going this time huh same place or I got to go to Birmingham again last week I didn't quite make it to Birmingham hopefully yeah you get a little better for chicken things for chicken things no no I'm I'm no longer with them I'm with a sausage bacon hot dog company grass-fed beef and like Smokehouse products you graduated from chicken yeah that that's just in time this whole we flu thing one hey are you familiar with the corner of Kinnon r i proba pretty far in the back I'm all oh okay I'm like the F Street old folks that live I guess it's a stop sign theie people are parking their car I think the same one as last time cuz I'm still logged in yeah and you can't see down the stre no Prime still has me logged in we have problem I got like we would like get our our computer scam but it's only on the prim because I logged in the computer under training right so when I went in the prime de this popped up so it's not like I can see anything she did I don't think we can change anything in it either no Prime you're just looking at the documents oh okay yeah I look forther back did everybody turn their mics on okay cool all right are you guys good rock and roll or get up there too okay all right we'll call this meeting to order at 5:30 p.m. January 27th 2025 we have all me members of council present and we will start with public comment um I do have one written request to speak so if you come on up state your name and address for the record uh it is Mr Ryan barus we can go up the mic up here good afternoon I'm Ryan barcus and my address is 1137 Duncan Drive Winter Springs Florida I go ahe and get started okay thank you uh good afternoon mayor council members uh I just wanted to take a few moments uh regarding Pace item that you guys have tonight uh again my name is Ryan barcus and I'm the senior director of program for the Florida development Finance Corporation so we were based here in Winter Springs uh fdfc was established 30 years ago as a state authorized issuer of IND uh Ida bonds or private activity bonds and more recently we did commercial Pace notes uh our statute requires interlocal agreements with local governments to complete these financings while fdfc is not granted Levy and collection Authority uh through the statute we administer the Florida resilien and energy District which allows us to Levy and collect these cpce assessments I'm here today to express my support for continuing the PACE program in Ovito I understand there are concerns about legal disputes with other Pace agencies and the county tax collectors if there are any additional concerns I would welcome the opportunity to address them before any final decision is made it is important to note that the fdoc is not involved in any pending litigation between tax collectors property appraisers or any other local government uh we fully support the position that interlocal Agreements are required for processing pace financings and uh with willing local governments to ensure compliant and effective processing the fdfc as a CPAs program is currently active with 227 jurisdictions across Florida in SEO County we have agreements with Longwood Sanford Winter Springs U here in Ido which we hope to remain with you is important to highlight that pace financings Ries solely on private funds uh which can be used for both new and existing construction this financing provides significant benefits to Property Owners without the burden of upfront costs it supports Energy Efficiency upgrades and protects their properties from weather damage is especially important considering Florida where hurricanes and flooding are becoming more prevalent uh if the city decides to continue the broader PACE program due to concerns about litigation or maybe with the residential pace program I would encourage you to retain the commercial Pace component through Fred as the city of Longwood has done uh unlike residential pace cpce is focused solely on Commercial properties which generally involve more sophisticated Property Owners uh and longer processing periods uh this enables commercial property owners to make critical improvements that reduce operational cost and build or improve their properties in closing I just want to let you know that our staff Works Dil diligently to maintain good working relationships with the tax collector property appraisers and our local government partners and I would ask that you try to learn more about this program and hopefully you'll come to realize the benefits of continuing the PACE program or at least retain cpce uh under our program I will remain in attendance uh through this discussion item to help any answer any questions you may have and I just appreciate your time thank you very much uh next up I did get another written request uh Mr Matthew choy good evening my name is Matthew Choy and I am with renew Financial one of the four residential providers of the P PACE program here in Florida and what I wanted to do briefly is just discuss some of the changes that have happened within the pace industry over the past year and I'd like to start with Senate Bill 770 and that was recently um signed by the governor and made into law July 1 and what it did functionally was three things the first is that it um articulated specifically that pace providers need a local interlocal um resolution with the government in order to do business within that municipality it was very important to us that some of these lawsuits that we've seen throughout Florida um would not directly apply to fgfa however the only way we were able to do that is through changing the statute um so so now that is no longer an option throughout the State of Florida secondly what we did is we injected new consumer protections into the statute and that was achieved by going throughout the state this past year and talking to not only elected officials like yourself but can other constituents and homeowners to say what were some of the issues that you saw with residential pace and then we worked through our sponsors in the house and the Senate to put in a framework whereby some of the complaints that we've seen in the past are no longer able to be done in Florida simply because they are against the law now um and finally what we did is we expanded the product categories and most importantly we did that into two specific sections first was septic to sewer um we again asked elected officials around the state what were some of the things that they needed for their constituents and that was one of the biggest issues that we saw and the second was um residential um seaw walls we saw that we are now able to provide homeowners with that as well so I would say in conclusion that approximately 45% of Floridians right now are able to take advantage of the rpce program and that's really important because what we're seeing is more frequent and more intense hurricane and weather events in the State of Florida and often times um homeowners just do not have the finances or the credit um or the resources necessary to do things like Harden their home put on a new roof so they don't get kicked off of their insurance roles and we just want to be able to be a tool in the toolkit um for you council members and for the homeowners to say if the PACE program is appropriate um and if the upgrades that you would like to see done to your home are part of the PACE program um we would like to continue that partnership um much like my counterpart in uh cpce I will say here throughout the remainder of the meeting if there are any questions thank you thank you I don't have any other written requests to speak is there anybody in the audience that would like to address Council this time hearing none I'll close public comment um and we'll move on to the second order of business the PACE program Mr cob uh thank you deputy mayor uh this is a request for Council to provide Direction whether or not the city will continue uh to participate in the PACE program uh in 2017 the city did enter into interlocal agreements with four uh Pace uh districts as they're called uh the Florida green Finance Authority the green Corridor Pace District the Florida resiliency and energy District in the Florida Pace funding agency and they it was as as mentioned by the two speakers uh these programs were established to give Property Owners an opportunity to uh Harden their homes basically it was also an opportunity to give them the ability to uh bring forth more uh alternatives for energy like uh solar I I think the gentleman who brought it to us originally he was in the Solar industry and it was an opportunity to allow residents to do that and the program would allow them to do this form of financing through their tax role and they would pay for the financing when they would pay their taxes uh the city did enter into interlocal agreements uh it is a requirement that the um since it goes through the tax rols it's collected by the tax collector uh we did invite Mr Cole tonight uh he I believe he was going to attend uh he may come any any minute Mr Hall has done considerable research on this and so I'm going to turn it over to him and let him fill you in on the research that he has done and then we'll we'll seek your direction thank you Mr cob you know basically the the program as I understand was adopted in 2014 it really took off in 2015 uh the city signed on to it by resolution adopted 2017 the way it's set up the state does not have the program was Ho by the legislature but there is no funding uh provided in the legislation so it is done through private uh Financial investors agencies or whatever and it is devolve it involves contractors private contractors no State contractors involved when the when the program first uh came out there was really no oversight the the contractors basically drove the program um many stories of contractor approaching home owners said you need to fix this you need to fix that and as long as it was was in the uh the the repairs Replacements that was provided in the program the program specified it had to be can you talk a little closer to the mic please thank you okay the program specified it had to be uh maybe even a little closer than that okay like get get it like yeah super close thanks there we go perfect okay that better yeah so it it had to be certain specified improvements they are all related to clean energy um such and energy saving devices such as insulated Windows roofs installation so forth in in um the um house bille 770 that they referred to that was expanded to include several more things the way the program set up an individual homeowner can apply for a loan uh and it it is through a private lender and it is based on a contractor's estimate of work that they the contractor tells DET term as needs to be done on the house there's really no control on those costs there's no State oversight of those costs the contractors do have to be registered the agencies that do the funding do have your estate but uh there is there is no caps or whatever so the financing is what it is typically it is above Market um and the only requirement for the program is you have to have at least 15 to 20% equity in your house the amount you borrow can what's that number again it's about you have to have uh 15 to 20% yeah at least you know at least equity in your house because it's it's truly based on Equity uh so what happens is is you have a contractor gives you an estimate of what needs to be done um it was in like I said in in 2024 23 uh solar was included I'm not a big proponent solar so that that's one thing I don't like but it's not but it's not my decision I can give you my opinion um but uh you the the individual enters into a contract with a pace agency uh they sign the note and so forth and the pace agency then gets a mortgage on the house and it has to well is it a mortgage or is it a tax Lane well it works as a mortgage because it becomes a superior lean so it's more than a so it's higher than a mortgage lower than a government tax to mortgage than that's and from what I could find Fanny B and Freddy Mack won't touch a house that has a b Le on because the pce lean if you sell your house it has to be assumed by the new owner or you have to pay it off uh and uh so Freddy Mack and and Fanny May and and the gentleman may have a better Embrace that will not will not ensure will not provide finan because of that um so uh there have been reported stories horror stories of people who would do a lot of improvements uh it is it is paid let me back up it is paid it's a non non- tax assessment non-ad tax assessment that's pay that goes onto your tax bill it has to be paid every year and the the length of the loan depends on the estimated life of the Improvement being made so if it's a roofing if it's a ro for a roof it's probably a 25- year loan if it's a if it's a loan for say a hot water here or something is probably 5 years so those have to be paid off uh if you own your home it's one big chunk each November that you have to pay so if you've got a $220,000 loan with a 5year life then it would be what that 1/4 of it or not 1/4 of it but but that each year you'd have to pay so in November you might have a big chunk to pay there there's there's stories coming out of South Florida where people p it with $14,000 tax bills they spent that on the house and they have to pay it um so you know it it it is is like I said you don't have to have good credit all you have to have is equity in your house and then you qualify um and um like I said it becomes a non tax lean it does become a superior lean on the house it's superior to the mortgage and the whatever so um there are they do have the right to pour clothes on the house and that's that's the biggest issue I see is they have the right to foreclose in the house if for some reason the the owner doesn't pay can't pay now I I suspect the the finance companies have some kind of program to work with you uh but having come to the mortgage fore closer prices uh crisis in the early in the late 2000s because I was on the defense side um there's a lot of horror stories and and foreclosure is just you know that that that concerns me so my concern is you know people are getting loans to pay for improvements they really can't afford to make are we seeing more cities op of this recently yeah the the the um the only ones left in simol County are us in Sanford uh Longwood um what I could find out opted out of the program but according to Mr Burke is there they're keeping there is a residential side and a commercial side um and Mr perkus which I said was news me I found out they Longwood was opting out now uh but apparently and I have no reason to doubt that he's staying on the commercial side so the County's not in it it's count is not Austin Sanford and the county has never been in it correct county has never been in it and to my knowledge I don't know any other C what about the surrounding counties Orange County do you know who's in it there I do not I do not I I simply I strict Simo County and like I said it was us in Stanford Longwood I don't know the other cities I couldn't find any other cities that opted in but um those are basically the high points of it um and uh it's it's I I I I attempted to get the number of people in obido were participating and and uh I talked to Mr Cole's office we were requested it as public records request we never get it but he was going to be here I assume he got tied up and he could probably speak but as the tax ters don't like the program CU I think what happens I'm assuming what happens is people get a bill and it's a huge bill and they call a tax collector to complain and so they've got to sit there and explain everything to them so I think they they don't like having to take on the burden of educating the public on what this is uh because you know perhaps the average owner doesn't really understand it but they're getting a new roof and they don't have to pay any money UPF front and they pay for it monthly with their tax bill if they have a mortgage or if they don't have mortgage one lump sum so I I don't have the number of the people participating but um like I said um it it's particularly bad bad in the south Florida in the Miami area which as you would expect kind of uh which part is bad it's the the the program in South Florida has been abused uh there are reports of contractor gouging homeowners there and uh for the cost of the work or for the rates cost of the work yeah and the rates are typically probably you know two to three points higher than because it is not it's a non-credit loan so you know lenders are going to charge more because it is a n credit loan but they are looking to the equity in the house and the equity in the house is is what drives the loan and uh the oversight of contractors is another issue uh the contractor can go in and and upsell the homeowner saying well okay you need roof but in addition to you need you need insulation you need this that and there's no oversight there's nobody they report to so that's been a biggest complain I saw was is contractor driven and then uh you know from the lender standpoint they're protected so it's a good loan for them uh I'm sure the lenders don't want to uh foreclose and so they probably have programs to work with you but in essence it it it becomes a super lean subject to foreclosure so um for whatever it's worth I sent a note to the tax collector to see if he was on his way he thought the meeting started at 6:30 so uh he is I I sent a little note and asked you can you at least tell us how many people inside City Limits are part of the pace program if you can find out real quick okay good would it make sense to come back to this one and move to the second item if he's on that's actually a pretty great idea like true I mean I if it's a presiding author no I was going to suest the same thing when you guys were done um do you guys have any other questions before we come back to it or going to move on to the next one and revisit I can I can tell you that Mr Mr Elly did do some did do some investigation today uh we went into the clerk of the Court's uh website we were able to find just recorded is what we were looking for recorded agreements and we found 17 with Ido uh references to them and there was 117 total in simal County most of which were in the Sanford area but we did find 17 uh in the in Ido okay so whether or not that's all of them I can't tell you but that's what we were able to find did you you guys go ahead and none were in foreclosure I don't know anything about that we were just looking to see how many were in OVO okay good question we can check to see if any of the tax collector will be here soon he he's hopping in the car I'm sorry oh the tax collector will be here soon with this info okay okay well if that's the case why don't we move on to item number three establishment of a sidewalk District okay all right all thank you Deputy Mayor um if you remember back uh in October uh there was a request that we had have a work session on the establishment of sidewalk districts and um we said we would do it in January uh and it's to establish districts within neighborhoods is what it is uh rather than like when you had your uh street street light district uh we we did it such that uh it was Citywide with this example it is to do individual neighborhoods such that if a neighborhood came in and they wanted to have a higher level of sidewalk replacement or wanted to get to the top of the list or somehow then the assessment District would be established within the neighborhood and would uh then they would then use the assessment to find the improvements to the sidewalks within the neighborhood itself uh we went and we looked in Florida Statutes we found a number of items that uh in order actually we found about three or four different ways you could do this and then we found a statute that was adopted last year that said these other two over here you can't do anymore so it knocked us down to only two different ways for us to be able to uh establish the uh sidewalk districts and I do have a some information here for you let me see if I can pull this up real quick it right there there we go okay all right as I said there were two opportunities for us to do this one is chapter 170 and one is section 197 362 I will tell you that uh section one 197 d. 362 is the program that we utilize for the street light program as well as the fire district so that that was the one we used uh is that a sycamore tree in the picture that is not lifting the sidewalk Sycamore safe it may be I cut that off the internet so so it very well could be a sycamore tree it does look like those leaves doesn't it a little bit or Maple I can't quite tell okay with Florida Chapter uh chapter 170 uh we can do special ass assessments to do sidewalk replacement I think the biggest thing with this one is looking at that uh the assessment is based on the special benefit occurring to such property for such improvements when the improvements funded by the assessment provide a benefit uh that is a different type or degree from the benefits provided to the community as a whole hence doing it on a neighborhood basis these folks asking for a higher level of uh service one of the things that in other words rather than waiting for the city crew to come in and replace the sidewalks we would be going out Contracting with a contractor and getting them scheduled and so the assessment would pay for that uh we do have to adopt a resolution one of the things I couldn't find in chapter 170 was interlocal agreements with the property appraiser and the tax collector that we have that requirement over in 197 I believe that we should do that anyway because we're going to need their assistance with the tax roles in both of these programs but we do have to adopt a resolution these are the different things that you have to do and it's just it's a normal thing one of the things about it though and we'll get to the next one is when we do adopt the resolution we do have to have a plan for it and it's one of the things we got to do a study first and we got to determine what the improvements are what's the cost of the improvements we got to determine what would be the lean for that and then uh once we adopt that resolution obviously we we would prepare the uh the preliminary assessment role and then we would uh move forward once we got that we schedule a hearing and the hearing is for folks to come in and go over with us uh whether or not they feel that the the uh assessment is advisable uh to go over the cost to basically voice whether or not they support uh having the assessment uh in their neighborhood uh the city would be required to provide a 30-day notice uh in writing and um at the at the um at the hearing uh we would then take testimony from the folks on the proprietary and the advisability of making the improvements and funding them through the assessment uh that is when we would once with that is done once that testimony is received that's when the city council would decide whether or not to Levy the final assessment uh then you have the opportunity to meet as an equalizing board and that is where you would come in and hear complaints about the assessment and whether or not you should adjust them uh when everything is said and done by resolution then we would adopt a final assessment role and U that would be what the assessment would be based on uh chapter 197 362 as you can see there I did put Street like District in there this is the uniform method for non-ad laurum uh assessments the uh once again as mentioned in 197 we are required to do a uh interlocal agreement with the property appraiser and the tax collector about providing for reimbursement of their costs and so I would advise that whichever way we went if you decide to do it uh we also have to adopt a resolution prior to January 1st however if the property appraiser and the tax collector agree we can move it to March 1st that's what happened with both the street light district and with the fire district was that we weren't able to get it done by January 1st we were still working on our studies we uh asked both the property appraiser and the tax collector could we go to March 1st and they both agreed uh we do have to publish a notice in the newspaper for four consecutive weeks uh telling when we would have our uh when we would be bringing forth the resolution and we have to clear these are just some things that the resolution H has to state that we will be using the uniform method uh then we would send a copy of the mail by mail to the tax collector and the property appraiser as well as the Florida Department of Commerce once again it would be by January 10th or if we got them to agree March 1st then it would be March 10th is when we would have to provide that notice uh the non- advalorium assessment role we have to if you remember uh back in August we did an adoption of the assessment role for the street light district uh we don't have to do one right now for the fire district because it doesn't have funding but each year what it is is that if you're if you're levying the assessment for the first time you have to adopt a new a new assessment role well the thing about it is when you have someone new move into a neighborhood uh that's the first time they'll be having the assessment so we would have to adopt a new role and then there's other things in here if we were to increase the assessment we would have to go through the process uh if we were changing the P the uh boundaries of the district same thing and uh obviously if we started changing the purpose of the assessment whether was okay we're going to do sidewalks maybe we're going to also do some other things we're going to remove trees we're going to plant new trees things like that um that maybe are associated with the assessment but maybe it's not part of the original one so these are the types of things that when we every year every year after that that we would have to uh we do which we do right now for the streetl district we do a new tax roll every August and uh that is that is the information we have for you uh we're available for any questions and turn it back over to you Deputy Mayor okay uh mayor you want to kick this off since this was I believe you brought this one up yeah so there there's uh a lot of people who are interested in shimmying around the types of trees near sidewalks that are being continually lifted and there's a lot of interest in neighborhoods all over town getting all the sidewalks fixed all at once which you know that's what everybody wants to do with storm water too um so we've got a mechanism for storm water to address that but sidewalk are something where you we could do that in a neighborhood by neighborhood versus a Citywide sort of a thing and let different neighborhoods choose different levels of service um so that that's just kind of something I thought it would be a good idea to enable and I appreciate Mr a asking for the the data on where has the money been spent the last 5 years uh and just looking at that I think it's going to be a really difficult thing to continue giving Live Oak reserve the level of service they've gotten the last few years and I get I get calls couple times a a month at least from people who think that still a great deal more work is needed and even after posting a copy of that that little spreadsheet there um somebody reached out and and said yeah I have not been able to detect that any work was done in live o it's terrible here we need more and how do we help meet that need in a way that feels fair to people who live in other parts of town may have had zero dollar investment The Last 5 Years Mr Rock council member Ro you got anything um yeah so so having different neighborhoods choose what level of service they want to have that's I think where it maybe I need to be CL I think that's where it becomes difficult because a lot of people are going to say I don't really want to have a sidewalk at all come tear it up and that's not really going to be an acceptable answer right so there has to be some there has to be some minimum that it would have to be and we'd have to we have to set what that is and I don't know how you set a minimum without also well without it also being the thing that everybody wants right is for the sidewalks to be such that they not don't hurt people um so that seems to be I mean one difficulty in my mind uh this chart here this this is I feel like there's quite a few neighborhoods that aren't represented on this certainly uh so the chart attachment three okay certainly everything behind a gate right um those are maintained by the HOAs uh yes sir they would be basically Mr H the charts were we was readily available data that we could get uh from where we issued purchase or ERS and work orders to our contractors um it doesn't have in here so that's what those are those were the neighborhoods where the contractors went in we were able this this was basically the use of our oper dollars that we allocated to sidewalk replacement as well as the um sales tax dollars that were third generation sales tax dollars that were allocated to uh sidewalk replacement and so this was where we hired our contractors to go into those neighborhoods and to uh replace sidewalks uh this doesn't take into account anything that the city Crews would have done so there there are other neighborhoods that we are working in that our crews are working in but these were the ones that we had data readily available where we could say okay our we know our contractors went there and did work so that's what those reflect so what makes the determination between whether a city crew does it or whether a contractor is called in uh actually I'll I was going to ask Mr Wyatt to come up and it a job because he can he can tell you A lot of times it's it's the uh the if it's a large job if we've gone into a neighborhood and done an assessment and said okay there's multiple jobs here that's you know beyond our capability uh so but I'll I'll let him him it's basically the size of the job um a typical concrete truck is 10 yards that's about 200 linear feet and that's kind of what our our guys will do at one time anything over that is typically like a contractor any any long or spread out job is typically we'll get a contractor to do it the operations manager kind of goes out and assesses where we need to go and based on how much money we have we go get a quote from one of our continuing uh concrete contractors and that's how we assess it do you know off the top of your head what the cost per foot is I know it's difficult so maybe a cost per 200 feet because you almost have to pour an entire truck at a time right that is correct and it's been I had I apologize mayor I had the I had the dollar number for um per truckload in my head not too long ago when I I don't have it at the moment um I'll have to follow up with the on that one I don't I don't have top my head apologize are these oops are these numbers just for repairs or are they for big projects like uh The Replacements North Lockwood The Replacements it's just Replacements yes sir but this is only five years and you andb talked earlier this morning and it's was like so you really can't tell here I mean what we really space so you got you got live o here which the history of live o was the city told the developer to put trees in between the side walk in a road MH now depending on who you who you ask uh on that particular situation they will say the developer pick the Trees of Li bugs versus something else neither here nor there after 24 years ago we now have issues uh with those trees moving the sidewalks but after these repairs you don't know if you'd come back right that is true and I don't believe that lioke is unique lioke is huge huge and if you compare it to Alfa woods and Kingsbridge West which we've also spent a lot of money in there in those two places um they have Live Oaks I know um Worthington where we've done a lot of work comparatively you you know if you compare it sizewise I mean it's it's trees I mean it's the oak trees or whatever's in there the these neighborhoods are 30 40 years old now and it's just time is taking its toll and it's sheer quantity and Logistics and we're having trouble keeping up yeah and our funding source is not you know it's the third generation sales tax has been I think we started using it about 5 years ago for this kind of um application and that's why I don't have data that goes back before that it just occurred to me about that time that we can use this for that that's what we is there any alternative methodology to doing these repairs so that we don't have to worry about going back and redoing it either a fabric or something flexible we've talked about that um the only thing is you know like I've seen some applications um like using like an asphalt texture but it's going to it's going to bend with a root as well I don't know how we're going to truly solve it um until we find something that will not break will not move unless um unless we box the trees in through some kind of Technology that'll keep the roots from invading is it legally allowable for the trees to be over time swapped to something else I I guess this is a question for probably Mr Cobb and Mr Hall and maybe somebody in development services I don't know if there is something in the Pud that require or the developers agreement that requires continual replacement of a particular type of tree well you have you have the state laws recently passed it says if an arborist certifies that it is a menace or it's damaged or whatever you can't remove it so people are using that to remove a lot of trees oh for sidewalks you can use that statute interesting yeah I mean I if Arbor says yeah it's causing problem it's an issue you can take it out I I think you know as as far as trees within the public right away uh I believe that we can if we go in and we we start to see uh repeated we there repeatedly uh and it is a tree then I think yes I I I believe that yes we could go and change the trees out I think it's as Mr Wyatt said in some cases you're talking about a 30 to 40 year old tree that's rather large it would be sad it would be terrible to do that when you take out you know let's say that it was a um you know a 16 to 18 in trunk and then you go in and we remove that tree and then we replace it with a 2 and 1/2 inch Street and it's of a different species let's say we go from a live oak which most of our neighborhoods do have Live Oaks I mean our folks like the tree line streets and so we replace it with a CRP mytle which doesn't have an invasive root and so it's there's a big difference it would it would be a huge uh change in the aesthetic of our neighborhoods for us to do that there there are different types of trees that are coming out that are quote shade trees that uh the Roots do grow more in a linear fashion than you'd have with a live oak a live oak the roots go this way when you look at a live oak the spread pretty much above the ground the spread below the ground is about the same and so uh they they do spread uh there are certain types of trees that are coming out now where you have more of a linear root growth where it grows down uh which would help but I think Mr White's correct is that you know we probably need to look at something more structural uh and that's that is a lot of a lot of trees to in Kingsbridge West aren't most of those Laurel Oaks and not lives so they're going to be coming up on the end of their lifespan in some of these neighborhoods with the Laurels so we could come up with a advanced plan to maybe help move those along more strategically to have a different age so we can have different shade that that's more of that's where it gets back to I feel like it could be something that neighborhoods want to have a lot more say over versus us sitting up here and saying hey over time since we own these trees and we're responsible for the sidewalks we are now going to diversify your trees by felling oneir of the Laurel Oaks because they're going to die in 15 years anyway and this way you'll have 15-year-old turkey Oaks that have a narrow rootball like that's getting really into the weeds May the only challenge that I would I would share with you about you know replacing trees is the sheer cost of removing the trees it's it I mean there's I mean there's hundreds if not thousands well and and that's where I think it makes sense to ask neighborhoods if this is something that they're interested in doing because I don't think we have any way to access the funding needed to do what some not and I I'm not saying I want to knock down any trees I'd be more inclined to Asphalt over them and hope for the best with ADA compliance um but a lot of people have suggested well just cut down the tree in front of my house cuz it's the sidewalk is just driving me absolutely baddy and I will share with you with some areas with really problem trees where we have to keep going back we have taken trees out cuz it just we just can't keep going back so the the ultimate solution is take out the tree and that's doesn't happen very often but it's happened I'm sorry that seems like a terrible I I don't think anybody wants that result I agree but sometimes I mean if if you think about backup curb and sidewalk you've only got you know 3 four feet at best could we and it picks up the whole thing then could we go around like have we offered residents the opportunity to either I don't know if we're even legally allowed to take out a section of walk and say this is a touchy feely spot compliance and then if you go if you try to go around on the backside you're you're in private property well yeah but then we get in it EAS hold hold let's rain it back in here so we're talking about a sidewalk District yeah now on what trees we're regulating so let's get back to the topic here so for sidewalk districts as far as doing an individual fee for neighborhoods um personally I'm not on board with that I mean not on board we have a we have a tree code we pretty much made people put in trees um I will let Mr br first second these are for Brian um I'm not necessarily in in favor of individual neighborhoods getting assessed but uh at least not on a mandatory basis but Brian could we do something like we did with the uh snid in Twin Rivers years ago where we opted we gave it up to the neighborhoods and let them decide whether they wanted to to do that or not essentially um as I mentioned that bill in the state statute it affected uh part of the part of chapter 163 that the snits are part of okay uh if you remember when we purchased Riverwoods Park uh the city we did a referendum yeah and the folks in three neighborhoods three or four neighborhoods it was Al Woods Twin Rivers and I believe big Oaks and little creek and uh they you know decided yes they would assess themselves over I believe it was a seven or eight year period uh the city went and got a grant got a Florida community's trust Grant and also uh chipped in I believe this was actually this was before my time so I came in learning about it uh but they did um the city I believe got the Grant and then helped in with the local match it was split between the city and the neighborhoods on the local match but could we do something where it's voluntary where the the HOA says we'll we'll Pony up uh 50 Grand a year uh and let the city go in and do something uh that was that was another program in chapter 163 that the statute did overrule as well it was a different it wasn't the HOA itself it was a board that similar to the HOA uh but we can't basically what the statute says you can't make any new ones is what it says uh and new what you can't make any new districts using that part of chapter 163 not even on a voluntary basis well that's the thing I think on a voluntary basis I think we could still access 197 I think we could do that if they asked us to do it um whether or not we could it does say that it has to be assessed uh to the individual property so I don't know if we could go through the HOA to do that uh but there's always the opportunity that if the HOA approached us and said okay we've got a certain amount of funding could we enter into a partnership with the city city would provide a certain amount of funding to go do these things I dare say uh obviously it would require some research with the city attorney but there could be an agreement that could be done cost sharing type agreement that you know we would find out uh what you know do the assessment as far as what was required for that neighborhood and then we can look at some form you can do by referendum uh as far as doing it as through 160 that for part of 163 no we couldn't do it but if we wanted to do a referendum just to do a referendum we possibly could yes okay I I would just caution again we just took a millage rate increase we're talking about utility rate changes going up and if we come back with a sidewalk assessment we're already having the fingers point on us that they say we can't manage the our finances here and now we're going to come back and say after everything we just did we took a millage increase rate well though that was driven by something else we're going to increase our utility rates now we need a sidewalk because we can't keep up our sidewalks how would this caution us you know going down this path but it would it would need to be Revenue neutral right so you could if you were to make these assessments here right you could reduce the millage at the same time and come out with the same total amount of money right not not every so so how does that accomplish any well no that doesn't that would defeat the purpose so this is to give a different level of surfice than what the city would offer absent its existence so this would be like so what Mr Britain said I I agree with that methodology and it sounds like maybe it can't happen in that way ideally I'd like to see us go do have have a neighborhood ask for it to be done know what it's going to be and then we just sort of divide up the bill every year and if in a given year it's zero then it would be zero for that year but I don't know if we can do it like that but it wouldn't be like the whole city Mr bford it would just be neighborhoods who really wanted a different elevated level of service like M Mr cob said to be put at the front of the line and have it all done when they want it done council member written well rather than uh have the city go off and do a survey of sidewalks let the neighborhood come to us and say we've we've done our own survey and these are the areas we want done and here's a contribution to help that happen maybe to accelerate uh Bobby I don't know if you have got a list of a 10,000 cracks in the sidewalk that you've prioritized but uh you know maybe if it's if you have something like that they can move it up on the list and then contribute to that acceleration we have what I would call priorities all over the city yeah so you'd have CAU I'd have CAU if we have to offer that that same thing to everybody in the city we couldn't just offer it to one particular subdivision it have to be offered as a yeah Citywide program it would be voluntary for each subdivision or neighborhood to which means the cities or city would have to budget for it and I don't think we have a budget right now obviously so we got our budget session coming up but yeah we'll have to un if if we're going something make we have to uniformally offer it to everybody so it's it's kind of like the paving uh plan we have you know we try to make it fair and Equitable based on the worst cases and and work off the the big stuff first and then work the list up uh I'm not sure we could get there with sidewalks like we do with the paving right now I think it'd be a little more challenging because the sidewalks seem to have issues much faster than the than the asphalt does unless you've got a base issue okay I would just say I feel like we have been getting better at this um we have been taking big neighborhoods and trying to go after them went after Alf Woods um Oak Twin Oaks so I do see I mean I see the list we have for the past 5 years I don't think that's accurately saying we're only giving money to some neighbors and not others I mean sidewalks have over a 20year lifespan depending on if there's trees or not trees so I don't I don't think this assessment is fair as all and to what council member bford said I don't think there's any reason we should be adding a tax on to take care of sidewalks that are already installed that the city literally votes after developments made to accept into our responsibilities why would we say it's our responsibility and then add a tax to it um I do think we should do better at getting rid of our liabilities which is one of our um strategic plan things we want to focus on which is one of the reasons we had this millage increase we just went over um I was hoping we could use some of that towards this um we have another Public Works crew coming on hopefully that we've we've hired some in that department to help with this as well so I guess I would look that we try to work within our means on this one and and see what we can do to catch some neighborhoods up and then try to keep up with them I know it's a constant battle with sidewalks I just don't see an extra fee fixing this Brian or Bobby either one uh would it be inappropriate for an HOA to just go and and replace a section of sidewalk on their own would you would you give them permission to that to do that or would that be an appr that's the best of all worlds right there oh I agree the only the only thing I don't know and this might be a question for HR or for um Mr Hall is is there a liability issue with that I I don't know I feel like that's happened I had an HOA the of that do you think we can rway utilization permit they probably didn't ask I don't see why not that might handle some of the liability issues you right isn't there one one neighborhood where somehow we gave the HOA permission to require the homeowners to pressure wash their sidewalks or there there were something some kind of issue and and there was a sort of elegant solution to it or maybe we just talked about it it never quite happened cuz technically an HOA says hey I'm sending you a notice that you you're violating the rules because you need to pressure wash your your yeah that happens all sidewalk and then the person says well that's not my sidewalk to pressure wash that's the cities we we get that request but it comes down Logistics and when you only have right now 14 operation staff to handle the entire city it yeah we're not we're not pressure washing for cosmetic reasons any sidewalk a lot of neighborhoods have pressure washer on their own live o had does their own pressure washing and pays for it out themselves so but I I'm wondering do we have any kind of legal agreement that the pressure washer you know I don't know how that works well okay so what we have on the table is there where are we at wanting a sidewalk District I am in no I'm a no I'm interest I'm I'm interested in only in the ways that Mr Britain said where it's voluntary not not a mandatory District so initiated by neighborhoods not us okay so if we could look into potentially doing a voluntary but then it would be so if if they volunteered the neighborhood and there was support for it then we would have to in turn make it mandatory and then we'd you get what I'm saying so no mandatory for that neighborhood after the HOA yeah so after the HOA approached and the neighbors had sufficient support for it the only way to implement it as a fee that we would collect versus the HOA is for us to no I don't think we're looking to do it at a fee at all okay so are we talking about doing the thing where somehow the neighborhood comes and just works with public works and says hey we want to do this and it sounds like if they want to chip in and speed it along we're open to that if they have a an extra fee onto the annual dues let them that's up to them okay and then we just work with them to let them have already do that we're already open to that so I don't know if we do do that well either way it does not sound like we have a consensus it does not so we are going to move on from this one um did we want to go back to Pace now uh I think the tax collector will be here and about 10 minutes okay so then let's move on uh I know at our last meeting um some of you were not present but we put utility rates on here I didn't know if we're actually discussing it or just opening it for public comments based on the last meeting Mr Cobb uh thank you Deputy Mayor we um if you remember back at the last meeting uh is part of uh council member motion that he he made a motion to continue the your consideration of the utility rates and the storm water rates uh to February 3rd but he also said I'd like to have a discussion on January 27th uh and if I could get everybody to come up um we're all here tonight to uh address any questions that you may have uh I've got as many things as I can put uh on that I could find to say okay this might be something they're interested in uh Tera if you could come on up as well uh Mr Bo you come up and we um we during the discussion on the 21st Mary you made a suggestion hey let's put the let's put the projects up on the agenda and so that's what we did we put the projects on the agenda I did reach into to the uh studies and I pulled out uh the cips cuz I you had some questions about the CIP during the meeting and so uh I did pull those out as well and so like I said we're here to address any questions that you all may have and whatever discussion that you would like to have regarding this we're here to help and um uh also um council member a we we were able to get the more up toate information uh for the number of um as far as the the usage consumption uh the different categories I thought I thought it was very interesting how the those not as many folks are in you know 10,000 and above gallons per month but the amount of gallons that they're doing is is pushing that average away from where most of the people are which is in the 3 to 5,000 gallons per month and that seems to be pretty consistent uh when you look at the various fiscal years uh that the the the charts were able to do but and then when I saw that there was someone actually using 50,000 gallons a month does that person even no that was alarming yes that that was quite alarming but I could understand okay that now I can understand how when the folks at will down were going through this and they said you have an average of 8,000 yons a month and when I'm starting to look at oh yes there's quite a few down here that are I can see how that's moving uh so but we're here to answer any questions like I said I've got a number of files uh here that I can tap into if there's something you want to look at we did put the um as far as the projects were concerned we did put the maps and the the project list there for you if you want to take a look at those as well and I said also as well as the CIP and so we're we're here to as I said before we're here tonight to assist any way that we can and address any questions that you may have okay uh council member a since you put this in our work session I'll let you kick us off all right so um so going back two years to the uh the work session that talked about the uh pable water and our cup and and all that stuff and uh we talked in the email a little bit about um getting some updated numbers and you said you'd have those maybe we or something yeah the chart right there um so the question I have are oh the chart at 2023 shows us at just over 93% of our Cup right so the cup um is 1,700 uh gallons 1709 and it looks like from St John's that we have actually a second cup for 31 is that I'm not familiar with a second conceptive use permit unless it's okay I can uh I'm not I'm off top of my head I'm not familiar with it I I just went to the St John's website and looked for all the there may be some kind of irrigation consumptive use permit that we have that I'm not familiar with but our our primary our 8252 for our pable water consumption is is the one that we're focused on when you say 8252 it's the number of the consumptive use permit it's just this permit number oh that's our permit number yes sir okay so 1709 is what you is is the number that sounds right to that sounds like gallons per minute million gallons per year okay million gallons per year I'm I I operate on the million gallons per day number which is like 4 67 Gall per 4.67 yeah yeah okay so that was the number from two years ago that is that the number that you that we still believe that we are still we're still um close to that we're right around it so we we bump up and down over the consumptive use number depending on what time of year sorry that's the permit number yeah 4.67 that hasn't changed right the current use back then was 4.35 million gallons per or is that's what was reported um and that was before flushing improvements back then it was said that 16% of our water usage was on flushing uh we talked a few months ago about um the improvements that had been made so where are we at with the flushing improvements that have been made and how that relates to bringing us under the cup I I guess the first question is what's our usage for what's our Usage Now like over the last year the the flushing I could not tell you off top of my head right now I don't have that number handy I can get it very quickly wouldn't be hard to get but I don't know now I know we are doing substantially better um but what what we're still concerned about is yeah we're doing good right now but all of the potential development that's still anticipated to be coming based on what we know we're going to quite exceed our consumptive use and so that's why we're looking to get ahead of it now what if we just told people they can't irrigate would we have plenty of water for all the development from then on and not even have to install a new plant or will other jurisdictions drink the water make it so low that we on let's Okay finish off council member 's questions well yeah so that is one of places right so yeah so the question is like where are we at right now in relat in relation to the percentage of the cut because during the uh during the years prior to the previous meeting we had stayed relatively stable people had been using water and you know if we're if we're at 93% and we can stay you know under it I mean we we don't have to be very far under it right um in order to be in compliance right you said uh you said that we get fined if we go over do you know what the in in the long term if it's excessive I think they'll work with us now for the for the near term um because we are in the central Florida water um cfwi I forget the what the acronym stands for um but we're in this special district where we do not anticipate any additional capacity allotment for our upper Floridan um withdrawals after 2025 we don't anticipate any initial we don't anticipate the cff to go up is that we don't anticipate them allowing us to with that 4.67 million gowns per day number we don't anticipate that being going up um in after 2025 that they will give us any additional water coming out of the upper Flor and aquafer that's why we have to that's why plan to go lower yeah that that's right that's what I that's what I would assume that they wouldn't give us any more perhaps they might give us less yeah we don't yeah um so you also talked about how 40 40 to 50% of the usage was for irrigation and that does not include agricultural is that correct because the agricultural um agricultural places have their own that is yes sir yeah so that's going to be that irrigation number is really for lawns and Landscaping and yeah and I guess you'll have a battle with the HOAs on that one as far as stopping people from irrigating right said is that correct 50% is for irrigation I I'd have to look at the number Mr Britain I don't want top of my head seems hot no it it was 40 to 50% one thing keep in mind is reclaim irrigation is used in our larger neighborhoods so it's not all pable yeah oh is that part of that equation no the chart that you show mean there's still I have to go back I don't have the that presentation with me um but there was a percentage yes that was portable irrigation okay so that means if we didn't have irrigation we wouldn't have to do this all of course right um and that also means if we add the cost for the advanced water treatment to the base rate like we're looking to do which we kind of have to do right in order to get the bond we talked about yeah that means that people who live in apartments who don't irrigate are then going to be subsidizing the ones that are overwatering right because we have to put in this thing for the people who overwater we raised the base rate for everybody people who don't water at all don't have a one blade of grass I got a question are having to pay this cost for essentially irrigation Y and Council M wanted to chime in go yeah go ahe uh it's really for Mr Boop you know that I'm not sure what the calculus is but if everyone quit watering their their grass and paying for that what would that do to the revenue stream for the utility I have no idea wouldn't it it would definitely decrease the revenues it would definitely decrease the revenues absolutely if that was part of the consumption and and hard if it was part of the base rate that would be neutral and and as usage increases so does the the rate uh the cost correct that is correct because we have a tiered structure so if everyone gets down to the minimum tier then we've we've cut our our revenues off that is correct okay so it's you know there's got to be a some sort of sweet spot in there where we we don't cut off the irrigation alog together but we try to be as uh conservative as we can that is correct uh to your point there's a there is pricing elasticity that will impact your organization if your pricing is too high so that will drive your consumption down so that's something that you have to be aware of whenever you develop your rates so for the sake of discussion um since we're looking at a utility rate here at a utility rate study it sounds like we're kind of sitting here discussing if we need a water plant or not um is that what you're asking that's kind of what I'm getting to yeah um another so another question I had you're talking about the new development was going to come in what kind of I mean are we we're not imagining new estate homes coming in right we're not imagining no sir mixed use yeah so it's all mixed use people who don't have Lawns right so irrigation is is going to be down to not not very much right it would just be the facility right we had a study done a couple years ago and I remember the number in there that was recommended for additional water supply was 2.5 million gallons that's the target number at present okay well so so you know I mean kind of adding all these things together I mean the thing the thing I'd like to do is not build a water plant at all if we could get our consumption down and are are there ways to do that like um for example I mean we talked a little bit uh when I met here a couple of weeks ago um that it's difficult to change Behavior but we're ultimately stuck between raising rates taxes or limiting Freedom right and uh I really don't like either of those things uh you know however are there ways that we could encourage people to use less uh some things I thought of here so here's kind of what I what I would like to do is if we implement the rate increases for the first year or the first two because we don't have to bond on the water plant until the third year is that correct that's the way I remember the 2027 2027 right so that's the third year if we could raise the rates for the first two and then do some of the following and see where we're at and that doesn't delay us on building the water plant but it delays us on locking in a rate structure for the next 10 years that is just going to assume it's there right um one thing I I'd like to investigate is eliminating the cap on sewer because right now if you're over a certain consumption we don't charge for sewer because we assume that it's all going to irrigation and not going into the sewer right correct if we were to limate that it would encourage uh people to use separate irrigation meters and then once people are on separate irrigation meters they could give us an indication of their usage we could charge a different rate for irrigation um we could even we could even cap the usage of irrigation if it got to the point where hey maybe we just want to maybe we just want to limit this um and then also you could Implement a rate increase on the highest usage tiers we've talked about how you can't do that from a bond right but you could do that for a period of time to see if that changes your consumption to where maybe you don't have to issue a bond to begin with um if that makes sense um there was one other thing uh mayor on uh in April of 2023 uh you made a comment on Facebook that you said uh St John's Water Management District won't give us more uh they're pretty much going to tell everyone to water their grass less if we don't start doing it all individually I'll bet you a dollar then in 10 years or less the state will preempt local governments and make it illegal to irrigate more than some minuscule amount well if something like that were to happen after we've put $50 million into the water plant and then an additional 2 million a year to operate it then well now we're way ahead what um what makes you say that do you have some do you have knowledge of this or is it something that is discussed at some level uh so I probably wrote that right after going to uh what's it's called the outside collab and it was uh St John's SEL County all the cities were invited did anybody else from our team go I know we had some people from Public Works go to this well let's let's keep it on topic let's keep okay but but he's asking what is the origin of this and and it was you know somebody has to do something and the local governments do not have the the the backlash would be so bad for local government for us to say we're going to limit your freedom of knowledge to water your grass that the only way to accomplish it is for the state to do it and everyone's like huh yeah that is kind of where it's this is probably going to head because there is a limited amount we are floating on limeston there were geologists there and everything and basically the we cannot suck the water out straight down uh in this way and somebody will probably have to intervene so I forgot about that I'm glad you noticed it and I have am very inclined I've been saying this all along that if we just tell people they can't water that would solve our problem um but also then we have to tell people not to water all right council member bford did you want to chime in because I know you weren't here last week oh no I watched I watched the uh the video of it um so I I got a sense of what what the conversation was about so I think I mean to uh I understand this R's concerns um I think it's dangerous that we talk about not doing the the additional well because as previous councils have gone into the challenge of not raising anything we've kicked the can down the road kicked the can down the road kicked the can down the road and then we're in a situation where we have to do something this is one of those situations where I think we have to do something um so I don't think you're going to be able to tell people not to water um I don't know what the legal ramifications of telling someone not to water or an HOA coming back to a city on that um I don't know how you're going to change some behaviors over time maybe you do but I don't think we should not back away from going forward with the plan to build this second well that we need which is basically going to be a supplemental well to the main well that we have council member written um Bobby is is a permit required for a shallow well less than 2 in for like personal irrigation for residents yeah I do not believe so so we could encourage shallow Wells like I have in my yard can you I don't think you can get one anymore if you're in a subdivision St John's is not am I understanding correctly you just said we don't need a permit correct that's my understanding that's that was my understanding too 30 some odd years ago so we can and one of my questions for you later is where is the groundwater in oito it seems like it's rising as far as groundwater that I don't know I know if you're talking about where we pull water from it's at 400 ft of depth yeah I'm talking 30 ft to 50 ft depth like a surficial aquer yeah I don't know what I mean what the consistent um groundwater level I mean it varies over the city based on your gradient of you know of okay elevation so it probably varies yes sir okay but that's that's an alternative as far as a lot of them questions on the utility rates did no you have any you know I don't have any uh issues with the plan that we've put together we've spent hours and hours uh reviewing It And discussing it so I'm okay with it okay and I will also chime in and say I think it's a really dangerous slippery path to say to not build a new plant um we have done education in our city to reduce the water consumption and we've we've made some progress there we've gone through this for 2 years and I think there's cities around us who have made that decision and we can see the immediate effects of it that it's not the right one um if you wait until you're hitting your water consumption to put in the infrastructure to fix it that's so reactive the wrong way you never want to start hitting those boundaries and not having a clean water supply that the city can handle um but no I agree we've been working on this for two years I I think we've done an excellent job trying to lower our water use rates trying to make sure we are hitting projects that make sense and actually Harden our systems and make them better for the future so um does anybody else have any questions on some of the projects or lists that we brought up that we haven't gone over yet Deputy may can I share something real fast yes of course um I just want to uh provide just some information so that you all know is that um back in December uh Miss Stewart who's hiding against the wall over there went and had a meeting with St John's and they actually applauded US based on our water conservation efforts and they looked at our permit and said you're doing everything you need to do MH and so we're doing everything we can do to get that water down I see a lot of we're doing all kind of stuff optimization reports and you know the flushing everything is getting better it's still just looking forward to the future and just planning you know trying to get ahead of that thing well and I would think putting in a new water plant is not us saying you know use all the water you can we're still going to push for water conservation but I I just don't think we should wait until it becomes a huge problem that we can't avoid to tackle it from a geological perspective is it POS are we all sipping out of the same thing like can could we hypothetically keep if we were able to completely level our our water usage Citywide even with the addition of multif family and all the other things is the water going to leave that pocket like is it recharging fast enough for us to hypothetically even use that or do we need to like I know we're we've got the we've got the well right or is it already it's that has not gone into construction yet okay but we are going to have at least the hole we have one already on the way a test a test well yeah a test well but that the test well is what we are ultimately going to connect to the plant correct yeah can be converted into a production well yes okay um so we would we would have the means to move more quickly how how fast could we get the reverse osmosis online if we started in 2027 we probably looking after 3030 I mean 20 3030 2030 it's going to take 3 years yeah design design permit and build so do we know if we is that cavity that we're currently drawing from will that eventually become empty is that expected uh no ma'am I believe that that our upper Floridan um allotment would still we still continue and so we would still continue to pull from there to the extent we're able to but not from the bra we're we're going to pull additional water from lower from, 1400t down so why would we not I this a question why would we not do the deeper stuff if we have the means is it just harder on the equipment there's another challenge in the deeper well is they look at how we are affecting Lakes throughout the region gotcha okay so that's a whole another level of of oversight Challenge and yeah okay exactly all right thank you so are they going to come back and tell us we can only have a certain amount out of the deeper well and I think that they will propose mitigative issues if they see that we're affecting other other um like if we're having a what they call maximum flow limit I believe it's what it's called an MFL um on on a lake that we would have to some have to participate in some mitigative project or something to address it but I don't think they'll limit us on what we what we're asking for do they know what lakes we're connected to with the the spot we have attached there's some in the region that are like well west of us interesting okay um are we good moving this on to I guess we'll discuss it at our next meeting as well too so um if we can back us up to item number two the PACE program I believe everyone here is present yep Mr Co wanted to come up are are we going to come back because I'd like to ask about some of the specific projects is that oh if you uh okay well if they're coming up well we were switching topics because we were done but we can ask about it I mean at the next meeting meeting okay yeah that's fine okay yeah i' I'd like to just go through some of the projects and just hear about what some of them are and why potentially some things are better than other things I'm sure Mr C would go over it with you yeah I mean you don't have to wait for a meeting you can actually meet with yeah okay so I guess everyone wants to know about Pace we've heard a little bit about it mayor just W out uh H back yeah why don't we take a couple minutes okay and let's say 5 minutes we'll come back at 6:48 our understanding that yeah unplugged for right now tried we tried to go on to the yeah so that's want to know just how many many and not I don't think I have problem shut down I got interes total tax collect C Reg project get started this you're ready to get started all right we're going to get started again everybody please take their seats all right so we're going to be bringing up the PACE program again and I think everybody's here so um mayor you had some some questions yeah for everybody this is Mr J Crow he's the semal County Tax Collector thanks for joining us thank you so the question was uh do you know how many people roughly in Ovito City Limits are currently utilizing the PACE program yeah it's a very very small number I mean we're here in in Ovito we're only at 27 okay Pace Pace assessments that are on there do we have any information on the rates that those people are paying or the size of the loan I I didn't those would be like a lot of breakdowns because we have all the different entities that are there but we did show um like here we have the different companies that are out there the Florida resiliency and energy District Florida Pace funding the Y green clean energy and Florida green Finance Authority those are the ones that are working in semino County right now and in between Ovito Longwood and Sanford were the three cities that did allow this um for Pace assessments to go through so in Florida resiliency has one parcel in ovido and that was uh that was a 20% increase on their property taxes from from what it was previous to having the the funding so that's only on one the numbers on the others get a lot higher Florida pay funding we have six Parcels in Ovito but the average increase percent is 19 91% increase of what their previous taxes were uh y green has 16 Parcels in the city of vovito uh average increase percent 191% for them also and then um for this Florida green Finance Authority they had four parcels and their average increase percent is 273 per. so it it can really make it you know tougher you know for someone who comes in and doesn't really understand how this works it's not alone I mean it's an assessment on your on your taxes so it's going to be put above everything else so that it has to be make sure that it's paid and if it doesn't get paid they're going to they're going to lose their home right thank you so that's just like a mortgage too um well yeah but it goes above even your mortgage so and then you can't get financing on a property with these loans on there that would have to be paid first because no no lenders want to touch it they just say it's kind of solar panels are kind of like that right now if if the assessment if you owe on your solar panels you were buying them and you financed it in there well the banks aren't going to give you the money for that or give you any credit or appreciation for it so you're going to be kind of have to usually pay that off beforehand but that's at least a separate loan that you say it is what it is you know they bought solar panels and you know it's it's another problem that comes up but with these they just um the eligibility issues are they they don't have any credit requirements like a traditional loan because it really is not anything about your credit it's going to be whether or not you're going to put on your taxes or not um can allow they can always allow the homeowner to borrow more than they can afford without even question of it so that's that's where my big concerns are for it is just the the transparency of these and how they're going to how they come through and I don't like to see anyone in seol County obviously lose their home because they're going to come talking to me about it you know and I said because we're the ones who had to send send the house for foreclosure after the certificate and everything is sold on house you think it's exploitive is it exploitive do you think it's an exploit I think it's a little predatory it seems like to me I mean I I'm this is my own personal opinion but I I just don't think it's it's it's very it's not transparent enough so it's just us in Sanford right now longwood's going to opt out yep longwood's already opted out so they said they wouldn't SE seminol county has never opted in so anything in the city outside the city limits of the Cities don't have to out to they had a website and I went on it because I was asking about orange and there's no cities in Orange there's no cities in Lake Oola County was only unincorporated semi uh fuia had about five cities uh that were on it uh and I think Bard as well but was interesting again Orange Lake and then aola the only one outside of us you know Sanford would be unincorporated CMI yeah and and and like I said they they they've they've they've proven that what they tried to do is they they this Florida pays funding they sued I think it was 17 of us Tax Collectors to try to force us that we had to to put this on the tax world no matter what cuz they get they got a judge in Tallahassee at Leon County to say yes they need to get approval so at that point they went around the state telling everybody we don't have to get approval so we fought them on it you know all US 17 Tax Collectors decide to fight them and and we won so they said then the governor came in and did give us some some more Guidance with Pace you know considering Florida but you know any of the pace loans that are existing we still are going to have to collect with because those are already agreed upon but just going forward it would be if whether or not you guys decided to allow Pace in oovo or not there's 27 in oo how many for a Simo County do you have uh well for all of s for all of it yeah um yeah we had 178 Total Parts 178 and 27 of those are yeah that's between Longwood Sanford and Ovito gotcha how many of those are commercial I didn't have the breakdown of how many were commercial um I believe they're residential there's very few I mean there're very very few that are even commercial usually it's most of them do go residential because it like the contractors that I've seen doing this and I've gotten the postcards at my home that say like you know get this loan and and you know get get a a loan and no payment till November and I said well it's going to be a payment in November you know uh so you know that that's going to be the the surprise that they get and they can just get taken by getting into this buying something they really don't need where they can say I'm going to get a new roof and then air conditioning and they put all these things on there and the contractor it doesn't have to be scrupulous at all they can say they can just put everything on there and then at the end of it they're you know that homeowner is going to be stuck with that Bill to qualify is it an income based qualification I don't I mean everything I've seen it's there's no income qualification okay it's just and it's not even like equity in your home or anything like you would have to on a home equity loan it is just it's going to be put on your taxes so we've seen in in valua I've seen a couple because they have a lot more mobile homes than we have you've seen it where they take someone who had a a widow disabled uh senior exemption on their property they're paying no no taxes and now they're they're they're new tax bill is 3500 W so you know you can see that kind of an increase and obviously someone did that very wrong to do that to someone and not not understand about what they're going to have to do so that person probably will lose their home okay so Mr Hall said he thought it was based on equity and you're saying it's it's not based on anything just anybody can go get it as far as I know I've never seen it being based on on Equity at all because it doesn't have to do anything with the equity it's going to go as an assessment on your on your property taxes but but for qualifying the statute talks in terms of of equity but prob it's it's not tighten up so I'm assuming what lenders do is look at your home and project IT project an increase in value so you're it's it's effectively Equity that's going to build so um uh you know but uh it the session does talk in terms of of equity but um you can probably structure around I by saying okay this is average increase you're proper with this now over the next few years be worth this much so you do have Equity yeah I've never seen anybody getting a appraisal done like they would with a loan I mean there's no one I've never heard of anyone doing that with these with these Pace assessments so it's just a sign the papers you know sign here here here a lot of I mean there there's been numerous TV uh shows on this exposing well how they how they operate you know mostly in California and such but they but they do this with an iPad and just have people sign and click here click here click here okay you're good to go and you got yourself a new roof they put the roof on the contractor gets paid with the with the bond and then you know this person's left here like how how am I going to pay this back if we do opt to get get out how long does it take um we would have to cancel each of the agreements they they have differing termination terms uh so it wouldn't be all at once some require so much notice some require no notice I mean some require a shorter notice period some require a longer notice period so we have to go we'd have to go through through each cont each we have a contract in in an agreement with each of the agencies which we would have to notify pursu to the terms of that agreement uh we to follow those termination Provisions which we would then if if if you direct us to terminate we would prepare a resolution to bring back to you that would direct uh the City attorney to to terminate those agreements we would have to then work through each one uh the the guidance in each contract to how we go through that so I think for longer us saw that they made the decision in October and then on the website it says they're going to opt out and to be done in March so it's about 6 months that was our understanding and of course Mr burka said today they're they're keeping the commercial side there is a commercial and residential side and Mr Co said he's not familiar with with the difference but and and he I asked him that he said he wasn't aware of very many on on the commercials commercial Lo there were done where's Sanford at with this that they've been hard to get a hold of they they they've been the hardest one really yeah it's been it's been tough trying to talk with them about what you know how to how to get this to stop I haven't I haven't gotten face to face with anyone I mean I've sent emails to haven't heard a back from anyone interesting and they have the highest highest number in Sanford you know they have 113 total but you know all the ones that are currently on the books they're still going to have to go through and pay you know pay those back those assessments they're already agreed on but it would just be anything going forward so what's a what's a uh success story out of this program I mean is is it really geared towards folks that couldn't afford a roof anyway and it it lets them get one and then maybe uh their escro uh payments goes up a little bit I I mean I don't know I mean obviously when someone has a success story I guess they don't really come you know raving about it you just hear you just hear the complaints so the ones we do have a we do have a woman that's in um Longwood that was has an attorney that's been contacting us because she's losing her house um you know she did the pce loans and she's trying to say that she shouldn't have to pay it back we're just like it they they have the agreement there you signed it and you know we have to still collect okay I think the success stories are where people get these improvements and they get more traditional financing where it has something to do with the equity in your home something to do with your ability to repay and all that kind of stuff so my my inclination is to part ways um this seems like something that is just barely better than a credit card loan and for us to enable it and and it looks like it's a government-backed government endorsing that's my concern is that it looks like we endorse uh and support this style of yeah we're like we're supporting this style lender over traditional lenders and I I think bopping it back to something that is purely private sector that does not require this level of collaboration is probably a little cleaner way yeah I agree I I would up out I agree too so someone who walks away realizes they've made State and they just walk away who who's responsible for those payments well it's going to be just like any foreclosure if you don't make let's say someone stops making their payments and they have a mortgage and and the bank is going to pay those as taxes because they're not going to want to lose the house because they could lose the house and lose all their money the bank would so they will pay those taxes but then they will start foreclosure on on that person to say this is just like not paying anything if you don't pay your you know if you're not paying your it's not government backed no and and they do they do sell it as that they do sell as a government loan and I said no it's not a government loan you know like there's private lenders and private investors yeah that are coming in and and and investing in these comp if there's if there's a mortgage on the home then the lender will end up paying it because they're going to protect but the lender for if there's no mortgage there it'll be a direct foreclosure okay okay so being sold as something is not that was something that 770 was supposed to rectify last year can you repeat that SB 770 was supposed to rectify some of that it and it did clean it up some it did clean it up some but it still doesn't I don't feel it has enough to to Really you know to say that this is worthwhile like you know if I knew someone saying they wanted to get this loan you know get a assessment on their house I'd be like try to find a loan first I mean you know it's going to be bad unless you can get a loan later and pay it off or do something but yeah you don't want to be stuck with it you know for the is there any way the the lender can not get paid cuz I mean you end up with a lean on the house and so that goes with the house I mean the the lenders they get paid because they're going to get paid they get paid because it's like a tax bill right right right but I mean is there any way that that can come off no no so so basically you're you're giving a you're giving a loan based on Equity to people who don't have credit perhaps to get a traditional loan and then you're giving them a higher rate right than market rate supposedly or this is this is what's being reported what we've been seeing but the lender doesn't really have risk involved because the government is going to get the money is going to collect the money for them either from them or from the next owner um well yeah yes and no so so if they have a mortgage and they're you know they're paying it for their mortgage payments obviously then when that new mortgage payment comes and says here's your taxes well they're going to say well you're short you know they're going to tell that homeowner we don't we don't we didn't collect enough you have this new assessment on there that you have to pay so they're going to kind of say you need to pay this extra amount now up front you know to us and if they don't pay it it's just like if you short your your bank you know $500 on your mortgage one month they're just not going to accept it they'll put in a suspense account and hold it until they say no we need $500 do that for two three months and then they start forcing they do a l pin days and they're going to start with the foreclosure proceeding okay so it does sound like we have consensus though at I think yes there is four of us so we I mean we've got to cover that we're going to move on okay did we want to hear anything from the the lenders that okay so I think uh moving forward Mr cob do you need anything else from us that we want to look to terminate this program from the city's end yeah you need give me direction to to bring forth a resolution to the for the adoption that directs me City attorney to cancel to terminate those programs okay and you have consensus to do that okay okay thank appreciate it thank you thank you chair um is there any other discussion items we'd like to bring up tonight actually Deputy Mayor I do have a couple of items that we need to that we would like to bring up uh once you all are done once we all sorry once once you all are done we do have a couple of things we'd just like to bring up ourselves okay um Miss uh council member Britain you wanted to bring something no on the neighborhood oh I was going to just bring that up with the chief there I received a comment on an intersection in Alfa Woods where there's a line of sight issue uh being created by parked cars on the street and just I'll get with the chief or deputy chief beavers and and see if they can go out there and look at it maybe put some no parking signs up okay I got a quick question uh to Mr OTS uh thought about ending the cap on the sewer I really love that and I'm wondering if that is something that would need to be contemplated before we have our next discussion at the first meeting in February or if that is something that is would be considered legally small enough to to Tinker with later I think it's a a really uh sensible water conservation idea so I don't know I guess that's a question for Mr Hall is that something we would need to perhaps flesh out today and see if there is there any interest in doing that I'm I'm interested in I'm not really interested in eliminating the cap um and I'm not sure if it mucks up the works if we uh decide that raise the cap a little bit but uh I really wouldn't want to see this this process uh held up any more than it is well the sewer cap seems like a real easy that that's like a on line we just remove the cap kind of a thing potentially okay so anybody else potentially interested in removing the sewer cap I'm interested two people anybody else okay Mr Hall is a fairness thing I mean I I think it is I'd have to look into it I I will conf confess I have not looked at that issue before but I can but but Mr C Mr I think I think one I think M Mr Britten it may be an equitable thing uh Mr Wyatt you may have to help me with this but I do believe the sewer is based on how much water we consume and the reason that there's a cap is because not all the water goes into the sewer system system in other words if you're irrigating you're using the water but you're not necessarily putting it into the system so that's why the sewer is based on a formula if I remember correctly that is the correct assumption I just don't know I don't know where the 10,000 gallon number came from where it originates I know the Winter Springs where I live has the same exact cap CU if you look at the the usage here and people are using way more than 10,000 some not a whole lot of people but some people are using way more um so if if this is a way that we could but doesn't the the rate increase in a tiered fashion for those heavy users not for sewer though sewer go water rate does yes water would be you're paying for the water yes and the assumption is it's not always going into the sewer correct and so that's why there's a cap on the sewer yeah and they're they're paying a higher rate for that those extra gallons above 10,000 or whatever whatever the tier is what do you guys think about clicking up the sewer cap to something more like I don't know 12,000 instead of 10 then we'd have a real specific easy thing to just shift I think the benefit of doing that is if you're if you're irrigating then you're on an irrigation meter yeah that's the thing to to get people to shift their way of doing like how do you how do you implement some level of freedom and also nudge people to change and that would be you have the freedom to choose to have a separate irrigation meter so we can better track this stuff for the Long Haul um and I guess is there a separate base rate for an irrigation meter too okay um so there that is a way to allow freedom to continue to exist and to nudge people to make better choices and be more mindful of how they're irrigating cuz people don't know I think a lot of people don't keep in mind though our portable irrigation is Capp we don't we don't allow pable irrigation anymore other than you you want to drag your hose out with a sprinkler and manually do it yeah Ian you can do that but as far as Irrigation Systems off pable that doesn't happen that's not all anymore doesn't Mr stainer periodically go out and drive around the city looking for folks that are not following the rules we still do that on occasion on occasion well then where do we get this 40 to 50% number from of portable water being used for irrigation I don't remember it being that high in the chart no I'm going to go look it up I can find it okay well maybe we can we already went through our whole yeah discussion on the utility rate so if we have further questions maybe we get with staff before the next meeting um and then go from there are there any other discussion items that we've not already gone over I've got one more and I'm sorry I forgot to write this down uh there was a there was a change to um the deposits um that we were going to make one of those changes was to um forgive me for the terminology typically you get your deposit back after 24 months two yeah two years of of payment we were going to change that so that residential for residential renters that that deposit was kept in definitely until they close the account that is correct um I I don't really like that um is there any interest in taking that off so I mean you're taking I mean you're penalizing people who are renting because some people in the past have you know when they in their lease move out of town they just don't pay it right if you do not Implement that provision in this resolution you'll end up with higher writeoffs and uncollectibles purpose the purpose of adding that to this resolution is to protect the income of the utility so that we don't have to raise rates going forward because you can't make the owner of the property pay any more than the base rate correct correct so the the usage we get hit with these consumptions and and we can't collect them and people know that they're leaving the premises and so they don't pay the last two months bill or three it's not a punishment it's just instead of giving it back it's accountability it's accountability so so to to eliminate this Mr a means that you want to give free water out to potentially to renters I'm not saying we want to give it out I mean you're saying that they steal it well they get it back it's not like they don't get the money back whole money it's it's just it's still your money if you live here for a long time you well then you get your money hold your money the whole time you're in noo whereas if you were an owner they give the money back I assure you Mr a we would not make this recommendation if it wasn't something that we needed to do all right is there anything else all right Mr cob you had a few things actually I I'll turn over to Mr Mr Hall yeah I I had a couple things one I'll postpone to the lady meeting but but if you allow me uh uh our firm censor mosh uh want to take you down memory lane a little bit had a chance to CH to chat with Bill with Bill cber uh The Firm undertook reputation I'm sorry can you move your mic closer it's hard to hear in here the The Firm undertook reputation of the city in 1969 uh Bill told me he came over he was first a city judge uh and uh he took over his uh City attorney in 1979 and has been that since Contin he said when he first took over the police chief who was one of the three employees of the city took him out to show him a new residential subdivision had seven homes in it and no paved roads and they got stuck and they had to get to tow TR to get them out but so he's seen the city grow and all since then so we've we've been continually the U City attorney for the city of Vito since 1969 but um in fact he mentioned the pictures on the wall which I told him they were down now of of the mayor who was here when he came in and so on subsequent but um all good things coming in the city The Firm has decided to close the doors cease being a law firm as of the end of May okay so uh we will be resigning as a City attorney as of effective as of the end of May it U Mr cver is going to be retiring I'm going to be retiring I just realized the other day that I'm starting my 50th year of practice so it's time stop yeah but you retired before and then you came back again came so right but anyway this is going to be a definite my wife has said nope no going back yeah you kind of reminded me of like Pete Carrol I'm out of coaching I'm back and coaching I'm out of coaching back and coaching but anyway obviously uh you know Mr cber say you know it's the the city of Vito has always been de to your his heart and uh this was his first city that that he represented he like I said he was the city he was the city judge cuz back then and he he was explaining to me you have a constable you have a state and you have local and the local they gave you a ticket you went to local court if the consal gave you a ticket you went justice peace if the county uh gave you a ticket you went to the county court and that was all Consolidated and so forth so but he was going back through and recalling but he was recalling the different city managers and what they did and and Mr Gro short tenure and so forth but anyway um he I told him I was going to let everybody done tonight and uh obviously we will assist you to whatever extent you need and uh finding another another firm or however you decide to go but uh that's the we will obviously will continue to work with then and and provide it and work with the transition to whomever you choose but um it's it's been our privilege to serve the city and uh we look forward to another few months all right well we thank you for all your your work for us and we appreciate everything you are welcome I agreed thank you for uh you guys serving the city so long this is one of the unique things uh normally I would come to you and say I'm going to put out an RFP uh however and please tell me if I'm correct on this for Legal Services you're not required to do an RFP you can just contract with someone or actually we don't even have a contract with stenstrum we've never had one so I guess that would be my first question to you is do you want us to go search for a firm and we've already been contacted by a few or would you like us to pursue an RFP again thankfully the City of Claremont recently went through this process and actually called me about uh somebody had put me down as a reference and so as part of me giving the reference I said well would you be willing to send me your RFP and they did they were very very kind to do that so I mean we do have we do have a uh I have obtained a sample that we can work from but I just wanted to see we you don't have I don't have to really have Direction tonight I will come if you want me to I can come back and give you time to contemplate on it uh but um we don't have to go through a competitive process if you don't want to I will tell you though that what we will see is a probably significant increase in our attorney's fees because we've been getting F friends and family discount with stenstrom for many years and uh so but anyway that that's really right now I think the biggest thing is do we want to go competitive or do you just want me to go find a firm okay the yeah he is correct the the legal servic are exempt from the state requirement for competitive things and and one of the thing which I've dis discussed with uh Mr Cobb is um at one well at one point at some point we have represented all the cities in in in Simo County at one point we reped four at the same time but um of those cities that we've stopped representation the legal bills normally go up about double and some cases triple so that is something to be aware of we we do the rate the current rate we have for the city is about half of my nor rate so the well we appreciate you doing that for the last several years well but for but for health reasons and age reasons it would have continued there's no question about it because it's very the city's very near and dear to the firm's heart thank you is there going to be some sort of uh celebration or roasting or feel like a roasted every time but anyway no we we have we have thoroughly enjoyed I have enjoyed my time with with the city it's not nearly as long as Bill's but uh bill has always spoken very highly of the city and and uh when I undertook it he he told me said you're going to enjoy working with the folks he said they've got a great city manager and and I understand his staff is terrific which is which is true you do have a very good city manager you have very dedicated staff we we have our staff meetings and everybody wants to do a good great job for the city which is outstanding much better than a lot of cities I've represent I can tell you that okay well I think uh we can talk with Mr Cobb and and work on this and figure out what we want to do at Future meetings if that's if I just throw a suggestion out there I'd like to see this be at a work session and talk about the PO potential of uh bringing this person inh housee because once we talk about doubling the legal bill we've got separate labor Council separate Bond Council and and we do need to have separate Bond Council and probably potentially separate labor Council and uh insurance so we have a lot going on and I think that it would be helpful for all of us to better understand the full Legal Services picture that's happening in the city in in addition to just what the City attorney does and you know is there a possibility of getting some of those cons maybe one of those expertises in our city attorney potentially well but yeah let's talk about it let's not make any decisions right now and oh yeah no decisions but if you guys are okay with the work session idea then we could at least know today hey let's get all this info and have a work session fast that is why you choose to go competitive I need to know fast you're right correct uh well why don't we talk to Mr Cobb this week individually see where we want to go and we'll give some direction at the next meeting which is Monday I think we should do this on the record in front of everybody like we're all right here I don't have enough information right now to make it okay I mean that's just what it is I need to learn what we're looking on okay well I I'll will just share on the record because I think I I ought to that I think we should do a hybrid approach uh so you know compare what other what people are offering but also look at the background of the person because if somebody comes in with a rate that is higher than others but they do work three times as fast well that's a different thing if we're going to Outsource it and then we've got the other alternative potentially of having somebody be in house so that's why I think a work session probably is the next best step and you're you're probably right we'll we'll discuss them on day of okay uh I have a feeling Mr Mr Beldon here is that actually yes uh wanted ask Mr Bel if he would come and just give you a brief update on 100th anniversary sure I I don't know if you noticed the um the new uh banners that have gone up yeah they look great they look nice so just wanted to ask me if he would come give a give us a brief summary all right thank you Brian um I promise I'll be very brief on this um I know we've been here for some time if you can recall back in August um Steph brought the city council a preliminary 100th year anniversary budget at which time Council provided consensus not to exceed the 17 ,000 budget for this event and I'm happy to share with you this evening um before we get into some details we're hovering around the $145,000 expense Mark for this event um more importantly um our Rockstar Miss martinis joined me tonight so she's going to take you through the Journey um of what she can share with you this evening because some of this is very special and it's very secretive um we are currently at 32% cost recovery um we've raised about $46,000 of sponsorships for the event so far um we still have many a lot of work to do as a group um there's a lot of moving Parts this is very fluid but you did see the the the pole banners being hoisted we also had the full page ad in the um Winter Springs Life Magazine there'll be city banners being hoisted throughout the you know the city here shortly I think we just placed the order yesterday or or last week um the date is actually going to be held on April 26th from 3:00 p.m. until 9:00 p.m. it's a six-hour event at Center Lake Park okay many activities include the typical um we're going to have four to five entertainment bands providing all sorts of genres of music from 1920s through the present time um something that we've expressed in the past is that we're known for holding a party we provide parties for the city residents and that's what we we've sought out to for this one we're going to celebrate our time for in the city we're going to honor those honor those families honor those businesses um honor the city staff um we're also going to we've actually teamed up with a lot of Service Groups and really quick I want to just introduce Miss Martini just to provide you a quick journey of what she's worked on um without providing too much information um thank you for having us here one of the um one of the things you think of when you look at this is this is a festival like we do have so you're going to see a social aspect to the 100 Years of Living 100 years and you're also going to see a historical part that is specific to oito so with working with the OV Historical Society the boys and girls club and uh potentially The Boys Town we are going to create a walkthrough time in the cultural center so you will open those double or the double doors will be opened for you and you will be greeted by 1925 oo with um a a historical society volunteer and a youth or young adult in Period attire and they will talk to you about what was going on in 1925 to 1930 pass you off to 1930 40 Etc all the way through um current day so that would be the historical part of it um the uh everything about this event is has something to do with u 100 years the um Carnival Midway that we're going to have uh we these are giant trailers they are original Coney Island trailers and they are from the 19 1970s so socially that was something cool in 1970s and one of the reasons that um I picked those is because of their size their attraction was to sponsorship sponsors get their brand on these pieces and um that helps with our cost recovery um we have cars that range from 1925 through 2025 thanks to working with Cru in Orlando our veterans tribute and we do have um our challenge coin is ready so the first 500 veterans that go up to the veterans tribute will get a um a challenge coin and that is part of the budget uh the goal is to make sure that everything that everybody does whether they're playing a game and getting a prize or getting a sticker or um the challenge coin it's free it's something that we've uh acquired sponsors to help obtain and that $46,000 does not include any of the vendors my goal is to get 100 vendors um so that will increase um the revenue and will help get us to our goal of 100% cost recovery um good deal there's a there's a lot more to it but I like we don't want to say too much CU this is public can I ask one question maybe are are there going to be drones involved so that's the other thing is currently um we have not entered into an agreement but part of the deal was a fireworks display as well a drone show and as you know there's been drones in the in the news lately but we're currently working with risk management as we speak um on reviewing the the current vendors uh you know protocol um how our site could be safe for this and if it's safe for the residents of the community so we're not moving forward yet but we're in discussions fair enough and our vendor um that we are working with um is Works currently with the um pyro shows which is our fireworks company and we all know we made a good choice when we when we moved over there they do a good job and this is going to be at Center Lake Park correct okay and I guess the lawn house or the trip through time is that no that's right in the cultural center inside the cultural center Cal okay this this uh April 26 is going to be at Center Lake Park it's going to go from the veterans tribute all the way down to the parking lot very good yes and other fun fun things in store um but did you have any other questions I mean I I have a lot but you don't need to know all this right now well I think leaving some of it a surprise is pretty good so but it sounds like you guys are doing a great job with cost recovery and putting together a fun event so thank you thank you thank you very much that's all I have deuty mayor okay does anybody have anything else for the good to the order okay our work session is adjourned