It's a low threshold. >> I said that's a pretty low threshold. [laughter] >> Maybe not lately. Yeah. >> Oh, you're good. >> You're fine. sliding something here. >> Oh, >> but it's okay.
>> Patrick. >> Oh, yeah. Like this. >> Um There should be some. Do you see where Cory Mills is doing the town hall? >> Then tell me tell any of us.
>> What? >> Cory Mills is doing a town hall. They're here this week. >> Uh yeah, I heard that. >> I don't know. Quite a while ago. >> I just heard this week. >> I just saw it yesterday. >> You have to sign up for it.
>> No invite, nothing. >> I'm shocked. should be a handpicked audience. employee lunch this week too. >> Wednesday. >> I think that is this week. >> The employee appreciation lunch. >> Yeah, this week at 11:30.
>> I'm not playing golf. >> I'm flying solo this week. Ben's in Atlanta as of tomorrow. >> Oh my goodness. >> He can go freeze his little >> Is he going to get home? >> We'll find out. >> Is he coming home? >> Well, or leave, right? He's supposed to leave tomorrow. So, >> yeah, he might not even get out. So, we'll see.
But >> send them with a heavy jacket, you know. >> Yeah. >> I remember last year I was traveling to I was going to Birmingham. I went through Atlanta and I got snowed in Atlanta. >> Mhm. Well, and they don't know what to do with snow there. Yeah. >> I would almost drive to Birmingham.
>> I couldn't get to Birmingham. Oh, you couldn't get a rental car. >> It was hard enough find a hotel room for that. >> Stuck in traffic. >> Oh, you were trying to get to Birmingham. >> I was trying to get to Birmingham. Yeah, >> it's probably only a couple hour drive.
>> Yeah, I just couldn't get a car. Get all the cars taken. >> Still just spinning. >> Spend spent most of my day in the Delta Sky Club. >> Better not. >> Did you get that with your Premier card? >> Yeah,
>> sure. Trouble. told he's on his way. >> We'll give him a minute. >> Did he? >> Did he say he's on his way? >> Yeah, he texted Brian. Okay, we'll give him a minute. That >> was my last engineering class was a rock. Like it was literally rocket science school. Lots of jokes.
Right. >> Bobby. Brian, he did text you. Yes, >> Brian. >> He texted you? Yeah. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> He's stuck in traffic right now. >> Okay. Well, I think is it okay we start a couple minutes? >> Let's give him just a minute. He says he
can see city hall. He's at a red light. >> Okay. We'll just wait a few minutes. >> Now, give us a chance to get this squared away, too. >> Does the broadcast still not working? broadcast is fine over here.
>> Have to log in credentials. Yeah. So you have to log in with what? You >> can't log in as training is to be able to use Microsoft Poweroint. >> Oh yeah, I know. That's why I started bringing my own computer. >> I was trying to look at the attachment in PowerPoint. >> Yeah, I just started bringing my own computer, but I'm logged in as training.
>> But how long how long do we have to take the cyber security training? >> Oh, I got to do that. >> February 6th. Okay. I'll try to do it this week. >> I'm glad you said that. I got to do that. >> I did it today. Okay. >> Put it on one and a half speed, it'll go a lot quicker.
>> Oh, okay. [laughter] >> Oh, yeah. >> If I could if I could have followed it at twice the speed, I would have done that. >> It's not just drag it over. a lot of AI. >> NASA used to send us fake
fell for the bait. >> When when the people were talking which ones were AI, could you tell? Well, >> I I thought like the when they did like this podcast kind of people like >> I wanted to ask you
to ask you >> that uh I keep on getting messages from a collection agency. >> Yeah. And I keep on saying why it might be somebody who just has a it's just fishing or it's the wrong address or
>> Okay. I was getting the legitimate one from Jess Parish and called him up. I said, "I've never used it. It's a hospital in Tyson. I've never used it. Never even stayed there. Never had anything." And they took my name off of whatever that bill was.
Yeah, >> she signs up. [laughter] all the traffic in the video. >> She's stuck in traffic. We want that. >> I went to uh I took Henry to Kelly's after school cuz it's his birthday today. >> Yeah. >> So, but the clog up right in front of
Kelly's and whatever they're doing on East Franklin with the >> Oh, >> it was bad. It was bad. It was like 20 minutes. really >> to get down there. >> I don't know if there's a late timing because the turn lane was blocked off or what, but >> I just talked to the guy who's over it's
another ice cream place. It's over by >> handles or >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Over by it's over by Mr. 01 and Jimmy John's in that shopping center built right on Mitchell Hammock and >> um >> it's like Ohio and the recipes like 19. >> So we got Brewers Kelly's, we got the
crearyy, >> the Dutch. >> There used to be no ice cream here. We're doing great y'all. bun place. >> Yeah. >> I can't eat. >> Well, there's two place next to what's that one called? >> Next to nothing but bun cakes. >> Yeah. Violets. >> Yeah.
>> Phoebe up or Home Depot. Dairy Queen's I guess we're starting on the special event permits. >> [clears throat] >> for the public records request for that video and my phone >> and the golf course tea times.
>> You've been requested already because of the meeting on Friday. >> Oh, really? Well, >> apparently I was >> I was stirring the pot. >> That's not the way I heard it.
>> What did you hear? >> We just figured >> we made >> That's all right. Actually, it was >> to us. We were We were having some >> We were fixing
it. >> Are we good online? >> Yeah. Okay. >> You guys all ready? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Welcome to Oto City Council Chambers. So, we're going to start our work session here. Um we have four members of council present. We were just
missing uh the mayor. She's up in Tallahassee. Uh so we were going to start out with our public comment section. I do have two written forms to request to speak. So when I call your name, please come up to the podium over here and just state your name and then you've if you need three minutes, you
have three minutes to speak on whatever topic you have. So uh first up I have is Courtney Ring. So, if you if you come up to the podium over here and if you just state your name for us and then the floor is yours. >> Great. I'm Courtney. Hi, I'm Courtney
Rain. Uh, I'm the executive director of the Goblin Court. We run Goblin Market. If anyone's seen it, we're at the Ovito Mall like 6 months out of the year. Very cool. I have a prepared statement I will now read. Uh, the Goblin Court is a 501c3 registered nonprofit that puts on a variety of community focused events
including markets. We prioritize small local vendors who may not have resources for larger events. Many of our vendors get their first break at Goblin Market. 20% of our vendors are from Ovito. We serve the Ovito community and bring in additional tourist dollars to local businesses. 25% of our attendees are
from the Ovito area. 35% are from Orlando more generally and 40% are from out of town. Many of our attendees also are spending money at other local businesses during their time in Ovito. We really appreciate having our market at Ovito Mall. We felt very welcomed by the Ovito community. Uh we have enough
space to have a variety of vendors. Accessibility is one of our focuses as we have a large number of attendees who use mobility devices such as wheelchairs, canes, walkers. Having the entire event be on pavement, well-paved pavement, thank God, uh is very beneficial. Our goal is to have the
event six times a year during the cooler months, air quotes, that's actually accurate today, but uh in October and March, the cooler months, it is no longer accurate. Uh it would be very hard for us if we could only have the event twice a year. Both the community and our vendors would lose out. We hope
we can find a solution together that meets the city's needs. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. Next up, I have Josh Gunderson. >> Uh good evening. My name is uh Josh Gunderson and I'm here speaking on behalf of Ovito Mall. Um speaking for
Ovito Mall, we do appreciate the city's focus on safety and responsible growth. And I do want to begin by saying that we share those goals. Ovito Mall has worked hard to be a good partner uh to the city and the Ovito community within the city of Ovito. The mall is uniquely positioned to host large events. We have
the physical space for safe layouts and staging and we have the parking capacity to accommodate attendance without burdening surrounding neighborhoods. For many organizers, Ovito Mall is simply the most logical and responsible location for events of a larger size. Most importantly, our events are fully
contained within privately owned property. They do not impact surrounding neighborhoods or traffic patterns with the exception of the city of Ovito's Fourth of July fireworks. The only operational impacts that we have experienced have been internal to our tenants. And we have worked uh with public safety and the police department
to uh resolve those particular concerns. Uh we as Ovito Mall have actually made the choice to welcome these events not for short-term gain for the mall but because of their long-term value to our businesses and to the city of Ovido. Our purpose has been to strengthen our tenants, draw positive attention to the city, and create reasons for people
outside of Ovito and even outside of Florida to come here. The benefits have been measurable. Our tenants, many of them small businesses, locally owned, consistently see increased sales on event days. Nearby businesses, including restaurants, also experienced noticeable noticeable rise in customer traffic
after these events. These events generate real economic activity for the city of Ovito. Money spent locally, paychecks supported, and businesses kept open. These events also bring visitors and vendors from across the state and across the country, turning an Ovito into a destination for locals and
tourists alike. We fully understand and support the city's responsibility to ensure public safety. In my nearly 5 years of overseeing events at Ovito Mall, we have maintained a strong safety record. We work closely with the organizers and local authorities to ensure security plans, crowd management,
and emergency access meet high standards. As Ovito Mall has become a desired destination for events, we've also become selective in who we work with. For example, we do host a number of 5K races run by the same organization because of their proven commitment to safety and the community. We would much
rather partner with one trusted experienced operator than allow 10 separate inexperienced organizers to independently host races. For example, Lake Hal High School's PTA reached out last year wanting to host a 5K race, but had no experience producing event of
that scale. We reviewed this we viewed this as a major safety risk, not just for participants, but for our property. Rather than denying them the opportunity, we connected them with Chris Batista of Run for a Cause to serve as a race producer. Chris organized the entire event, handled the permitting process, and ensured safety
standards were met. He does this for a number of charitable organizations, hosted races on our property, serving as a responsible race director and acting as their agent so that these groups can host successful events without putting participants at risk. This is why we are
concerned about the limit of only two special events per year per applicant per property. That type of restriction has the potential to reduce safety or at the very least reduce economic activity and that and that also results in a reduction of foot traffic for our local small businesses. This means fewer event
days within the city, fewer customers walking through doors, fewer opportunities for small businesses to make up ground in slower months. Similarly, Goblin Market operates five to six times per year in our parking lot when weather allows for it, and moves indoors during the hotter months. It is
a wellorganized contained event that supports small vendors, attracts visitors from outside the area, and under the proposed cap, an event like this would effectively be pushed out of the city of Oido. Do want to mention this event does bring in thousands of people each month that it is run. Restricting recurring events that are
fully contained on a privatelyowned property that is safety conscious and clearly benefit local businesses creates a real risk of sending those events to other cities and counties. If that happens, Ovito does not just lose events, it loses visitors, it loses revenue. Local restaurants and shops
lose customers and small businesses lose income that they currently rely on, especially during our slower months following the holidays. We are not asking for less oversight. We're asking for a more balanced oversight, a framework that protects safety while allowing responsible property owners and
proven organizers to host events and that support small businesses, strengthen community identity, and generate economic activity. Ovito Mall has become more than a retail center. It has become a gathering place and an economic driver. We respectfully ask the council, do you consider the policies to
allow that role to continue because a decision made here will directly determine whether this economic activity stays in Ovido and moves elsewhere? I thank you all for your time and consideration. >> Thank you. Uh next up we have Abraham Lopez. Good evening, council members, city
staff. Thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight. My name is Abraham Lopez, and I'm here on behalf of Vivo Veto Festival Incorporated, the nonprofit organization that produces the Vivo Veto Festival. First, let me say this clearly. The city of Ovito, its residents, and its local businesses
benefited significantly from last year's festival. We welcomed thousands of attendees, supported local vendors, showcased Ovito's cultural diversity, and delivered a safe, family-friendly event that elevated the city's public image, and generated real economic
activity. The festival is not just an event. It has quickly become a community asset. That is why we're here tonight. Um while the subject of bar concern is not necessarily addressed by some of the recommendations that we saw in the
packet um we feel that since Pandora's box is being opened we should have had this conversation and to talk about a concern that we have as an organization. We want to talk about the city structure um how the city structures special event applications and fees and whether that structure truly reflects a public
partnership especially when it comes to nonprofit communitydriven events like ours. Here are the core concerns. While we fully understand the city's need to recover reasonable direct costs and the facility, rental and associated fees charged to our organizations, in our
opinion, were excessive, untenable, and inconsistent with the spirit of public partnership that this event represents. It is important for us to emphasize a couple of these following things. The city of Veto is a nonprofit government entity. Our organization, Vivo Veto
Festival Incorporated, is also a 501c3 nonprofit organization made up of city residents who already pay taxes that that support the city's facilities year round. The Vivo Veto Festival operates without taxpayer funding entirely through sponsorships, vendor fees, and
volunteer labor. We're not asking for a free event. We're asking for a fair one. What we believe is reasonable. We fully recognize and are prepared to cover direct operational costs including any required city personnel and staffing
standard maintenance and utilities and security normal and average wear and tear resulting from the event use. But what becomes problematic for our board of directors is when fees extend beyond cost recovery and function as revenue generation. At that point, a civic
partnership begins to resemble a profit-based transaction. something neither appropriate nor sustainable for nonprofit community-based event. Our festival should not be used to subsidize unrelated city programs or events that have shortfalls, city code, and
signature events. We've carefully reviewed the city's signature event provisions under section 2-291 including the fee waiver authority. We understand that technically Viva Ovido does not meet two specific criterias.
That is one the requirement that an event be held for at least five times before designation as a city of Ovito signature event. Two that the requirement for a multi-day duration. As an organization we're good, right? >> You can finish up.
>> Thank you. We also understand why those rules exist to ensure quality scale and professionalism of the event and those that are organizing the event. But here's the reality that we face. Viva Oo. Vivo Veto already meets and in many
cases exceeds the substantive goals of the criterias laid out for the signature events. It is well established and well attended. It requires extensive city coordination and public safety planning. It attracts non-local visitors. It advances the city's tourism, cultural,
and economic development goals. It is open to the public and of quality equal to or greater than many current signature events. In other words, while we may not have the technical timeline requirements, we absolutely meet their the legislative intent by this governing
body of a request to council. We respectfully ask that city council consider one of two paths forward. option A or one allowing high-erforming nonprofit events like Vivo Veto to qualify for signature event status when
they uh demonstrate or meet the scale impact and quality standards even if they have not yet met the 5-year threshold. Or option two or B, let's create a specialized nonprofit rate structure for communitydriven truly
nonprofit events where no one benefits um no one benefits but the community. that it reflects actual operational costs, does not subsidize the city's other events or programs or any other organizations events and programs, encourages civic engagement and
volunteerism, makes long-term sustainability possible. Either approach in our eyes would preserve fiscal responsibility while honoring the city's role as a partner, not a landlord, in community building. In closing, the success of Evo Veto is a result of
collaboration. We work closely with city staff, police, recreation and parks, volunteers, sponsors, vendors, and residents all working together. We want that partnership to continue and to grow. A transparent, equitable fee structure will encourage [clears throat]
continued collaboration, attract future sponsors, support nonprofit uh specific initiatives, and demonstrate a veto's commitment to events that serve its residents directly. So, thank you all for your time, for hosting this important workshop and conversation, for
your willingness to examine how policy can better uh support community center events like ours, and we look forward to working with council and city staff toward a more fair and sustainable solution. Thank you all. >> Thank you. I do not have any other written request to speak. Is there anyone in the audience that would like
to address council at this time? Okay, seeing that I will close public comment and we will move on to the second order of business which is our special event application and fees. Mr. Cobb. >> Uh, Deputy Mayor, I think uh I think Mr.
would like to say something first if we could. >> Just like to address this letter if that's okay. >> Sure. Yeah. So, I wrote um you guys a letter. Uh it's on your desk in front of you. Um just uh suggesting that we uh postpone discussion of these two items
um to a work session on February 9th um since the mayor is unable to attend uh particularly given that she's unable to attend because she is representing the city uh in Tallahassee um in conjunction with League of Cities which is something that uh this council has chosen to
support up to and including uh last year and given that one of these is about her directly The other is uh something that um uh people who are talking to her about these issues have also been talking to me about. So I know these are things
that um she certainly has opinions on. And uh I know since you said that you couldn't be at the February work session um in the meeting the night other night. Uh I would like to combine both of uh those work sessions into one on February 9th if that's possible and if everybody
is able to attend and interested in such. Well, is this a decisional meeting we're in, Brian? >> No, this is justformational. >> And can we make sure we're talking into mics? >> Oh, sorry. You're good. >> So, this is just anformational meeting as workshops usually are. Correct. >> You can give us direction.
>> Okay. So, you you know, you can get input from the mayor. I know she's not here, but you can get input from her regarding this, right? >> Uh, yes. >> Okay. I'm not sure why we need to postpone this meeting. Um, we're just gathering information here and I suspect
there'll be a consensus that that will serve as direction to come back for official decisions. Correct. >> If you gives direction. Yes. >> Okay. By consensus. >> Yes. Okay. >> I will say on the second topic since I
did not know she was not going to be here till the last meeting when I brought it up. Um, these are we can I have no problem discussing this tonight. I I think we have people who came out here tonight to speak on these issues. We should discuss both topics. Um but it's not where we vote or, you know, codify anything. So, everybody should
have their chance to bring it back. As far as the meeting on the 9th, um I know I'm not going to be at the work session after. I don't mind moving it to the 9th and rebringing up whatever we discussed here as an opportunity. Um but we have to make sure, you know, that's okay with
staff and everybody up here. Um but I definitely think we need to discuss this tonight. We have a lot of people who came out tonight to discuss these topics. >> Yeah, I think we just go ahead and talk it. Again, we're not making decisions. We're justational. >> Fair enough.
>> Okay. All right. With that, we'll start with the special event application and fees. Mr. Cobb. >> Uh thank you, Deputy Mayor. Actually, uh Dr. Kareah will be uh giving the presentation. >> So, good evening, Deputy Mayor. Um, council members, I have also um, Deborra
Pierre, deputy um, development service director, Indalia Costa, who is our um, the staff um, that reviews special events. So, if there are any specific questions, I'll ask them to come and provide their input. Um, so it's been a
while that we haven't discussed special event um, applications and fees. And as you could see, I mean, we have a lot going on. Um we are not against special events. We like special events but we would like to revisit um some uh aspects
of uh of the application and have your direction. We have some recommendations but we would like to have your direction. So um as you know the LDC uh regulates special event applications in outdoor sales event. These are really
meant to be temporary events held in in a property. There are there is criteria um uh which conditions trigger the need for a special event permit or an outdoor sales event. Um these are not supposed
to be permanent um situations um because that would require a side plan. And uh with special event um what we have been um um seeing is that uh we have a lot of um
new um nonprofits that are coming for several events during the year. So, uh we would like to um discuss with you if um you would like to see any changes on the
fee waiver. So, I I'm going to bring the code of ordinances here so that we can discuss >> [cough] >> and I'll pull the memo when needed.
So section 2-291 in the code establishes um the conditions where council and and and the city manager can wave fees for special events and in general um what are the conditions for fee waiverss in
general. So for nonprofits um the city has the authority the city manager has the authority to wave the following fees for the following events. We have the city signature event. We have at this point three signature um events in the city. It was 10,000 the
original but we have been updating this amount every year. So today is 10,600 um and change. That's the amount that they can have not in money but in in in kind services from the city.
Um for nonprofit um um special event applications there are no limits for the number of applications uh and the code of ordinance says that special event permit applications fee the signed permit fees and the 10 permit
fees can be may be waved. We would like to in any case remove the 10 permit fees because these are um reviewed and uh and u issued by PDCS which is our the company that uh
controls our building services. Um and um if we wave the fees the city would have to reimburse them for um their their um review time, right? and and and these are 10 fees that require inspections.
So this is not really staff time and uh so we would like to remove that's one of the recommendations to remove the tent fee from um the code of ordinances. But the other thing that we would like to bring is if council is okay with an
unlimited fee waiver for nonprofits or if we should limit um one fee waiver for um nonforprofit for um uh an applicant for the event for an
year for the calendar year. So to limit we have been having applicants that come and have 11 applications. So and we have in the memo we can show um
from the 49,000 you know cost that we had for special events we only recovered um 4,20. So we had four um signature events in one calendar year and that's because great
day applied twice in the same calendar year because we only have three and we then we have um several um special event permits for nonprofits at $180 uh $180 each. So that's one direction that we
will have to have from council. In the same section of um um this code of ordinances, we have um language that says that city staff should not bring to city council any fee
waiver for development um applications. uh and these would be all the reasonzoning site plans all the applications from planning. So staff is not um uh um allowed to bring to council and I think the intent of the council
back then was not to consider or approve um signed uh um development uh applications. um staff um uh uses that limitation and we tell
you know applicants we cannot bring and usually that's a a limit but it does not state that the applicant cannot come directly to council to request. So we also have a recommendation
and I can show here The language that we have that we are recommending to include that in section 2-20 uh 291 um add the following language um
underlined language in E to say the city manager shall deny and not present to the city council and the city council shall not approve any fee waver requests for the following applications forprofit organizations development applications
and then add in F that fee waiver request not listed in in subsection 2- uh 291B shall be denied by the city man manager and shall not be presented um to or approved by the city council.
That is our recommendation to make it clear that um um the city is not waving development application fees. Then we have um so our recommendation would be to remove the 10 permit to change language in
section 2.9 uh 291 to address the development u fee applications and then add um a new paragraph that limits the uh waiver of special event and sign application fees for nonprofit events
for once per calendar year for nonprofit organization. and also add new language to the land development code to limit so special event permits are limited to once a year and outdoor sales event to two um uh
events a year outdoor sales events are for the tree the Christmas tree for the fireworks for the pumpkins and and and that we haven't been having issues with those um it's more of the special event permits that we have sometimes um people
circumventing the code by changing the name of the event. Um so we would like to get direction from council and our recommendation is to strengthen the langu language in the code to say that we have one special event for applicant.
If it's the same event on the same property um and the same applicant regardless of the name, if it's the same event, we should not play with the code, you know. Now, um we have in the code
the uh exception for farmers market. um because we do not have a a definition of farmers market in our code, we can be flexible to um understand that the goblin market works as a farmers market.
So we have no problem with that. We are trying to to make it clear that uh um not to not to be able to circumvent the code by just changing the name of the application. I guess if I were on this one, what is
the concern there? If the gobble market is a farmers market, what event are we having that's more than twice a year that's triggering a concern? >> We have in the past, right, events that would just change the name and they would come over and over again. Are they >> tell us do you need to tell us which ones those are?
>> Yeah. >> Can would you would you like to come here if you guys want to sit up here? >> The Friday night market. >> Yeah, if we could sit on a mic. actually. >> Yeah, they're closed. >> Or you can move it. That's fine. >> I'm done. Yeah. Um the Olo market. Um
the night the Friday market once a month. Um it was the goblin market. She's coming back now every every month, but she's only doing it for six months. She'll start October, November, December, January, February, March. She's been doing that for the last two
years or so. I have a spreadsheet where I put everybody that's actually coming back. Chris Batista is another one. He's the 5K. He comes every single month. >> So, I guess my question is most of those sounds like they fall under farmers markets, which we would allow. What's
>> vendor code? We want clear rules that we can apply and not, you know, feel that we are circumventing. >> So, right now, we're making those events possible by going the special event route, >> right? Versus a more clear way. >> Okay. So I just wanted to clarify. We're
not trying to nyx events we have. We are trying to make it more kosher. Is that correct? >> Well, we are trying to make it a rule that applies to all of them. Right. So if we are okay allowing once a month, the only thing the danger again
>> is not to have it as a permanent use. Special events are supposed they have never um uh um asked for the special event. Now they are growing
to the point that we approach them and say this is a special event. You need to pull a permit. >> So there are special events and they're getting reviewed once a month. >> They are starting now >> being reviewed. >> And the goblin market is a >> the goblin market is not technically a
farmers market but it's a market that is happening at the same property, right? >> It's an oval property happening every month for 6 months. We just heard now I understand outside for 6 months and then inside which we do not regulate you know
for the rest six months. >> It's on private property. It's on the mall property right property the the the farmers market >> I mean the farmers markets on city property. >> Well but the the code and we can pull the the requirements. It's the number of
attendees that will um trigger the need for a special event. And of course all these and we are going to talk about safety as well because and this is just you know information for council. Of course all these events bring you know a a a good crowd if they are successful
and we want them to be successful. So safety is one of our considerations right that's why we have the review of special events. We want the event to be successful. everybody has fun but we also want police to be comfortable that they have things under control you know
and that uh uh we are safe. So that is why we need to have the review and we want to see the layout and we um but if council would like to allow more those events to happen on a monthly
basis, we can change the code to say special events may happen. It's not limited to once a year. >> Well, I'm I'm really not getting this. Um, if it's, let's say, that the market
at the mall, I've been to those. They're not that big. They're self-contained in the mall. Are there any other city services required for them to have that? >> Yes. >> Like what? >> Police. >> I've never seen a policeman there at those
>> fire, police. We They have food trucks. >> Side of the mall. This is not inside the mall. >> I know. I've been there at These are the ones at the brewery, right? >> Well, the ones the brewery was the one she kept said it came up a lot, but again, obviously, the brewery's closed and those aren't happen. So, this >> Yeah, somebody else was applying for the
event. >> This business is doing it. >> Do we have a a tabulation of how many people are attending these because they don't seem like there's [clears throat] a whole lot of people that would require crowd control at least or paramedics on site? No, we need for if you have a food
truck. A food truck requires a special event. Food truck is uh >> Does that event at the mall have food trucks? >> They do. >> Okay. >> Mhm. >> And every time you have a food truck coming to the property, it needs to be inspected and that's for safety
purposes. Um they I have never been to the goblins market um itself, but we have the representative here. They can tell us how many attendees. Um but they seem to be successful and if they are successful
they they attract a crowd and if they attract a crowd we want police to be able to secure the perimeter of the event. So we remember this is not a site that was planned for that. This is in the parking lot. >> Okay. >> So we have to review you know the
operation and we have to make sure that no car can run into the crowd. >> Well it's a big parking lot and you know they have barricades there. They had them this weekend that they were barricading off the area of the vent and then you could park and move around it. Uh, in fact, that was a big event this
weekend. Cops and cars. What did we do for that? [clears throat] >> Signature event. >> That's a signature event. >> Uh, but, you know, I I still don't see how it's uh out of the ordinary. If if they had the same event inside and all of those
people went inside the mall, we wouldn't need to have anything. Correct. >> That's correct. Cuz the mall is was planned for that. >> Yeah, >> the mall was planned for high capacity. The parking lot was not planned to have events uh and people crossing park
lanes, right? Or um um driveways. >> Well, if you have a barricade there, they can't cross those. >> Well, that is that is the process of the review. That's what we do. Okay. >> So, we allow them, >> but we we review, you know, the the safety that we have to review the
layout. That's what >> So, we review that with the special event permit too, right? So, they have been operating in a way where we know they're blocking it off and it's safe. Is that correct? >> No. Um we're missing Yeah. Well, they haven't been applying. The safety issue that we
wanted to bring is because we had some situations that um a food truck for instance did not pass inspection. So it was not it was removed from the layout and police asked for that um space to be
um replaced by something of the same size. Right? So I think it was a a container um and um and um the organization of u the event did not understand that this was a directive. It
was a recommendation. So it's just a reminder that safety is a major concern for us with this those events and we need to follow the direction of of uh police. >> Okay. But why the limit? >> This was just information. We are not asking for any change of The limitations
then on the number of events >> that has been in the code forever and I think it was to limit the number of um of uh times that one special event can occur in the city so that it does not
establish as um a permanent use. But you can establish that it's once a month. >> Yeah. Because we're you said we're doing it for the farmers market now. So the farmers market's going to be once a month. the farmers market the code already exempts from this um
reoccurrence from the nonreoccurrence from the limitation of once a year. >> Uh so for each of those let's say they we allow it for every month and they they would need to submit a special event permit each month to be reviewed
and then pay that fee or ask for it to be to be waved. Correct. >> Yes. What about the services of police and fire? Are those fees waved every month or are they even >> for profit? No, >> not for a nonprofit.
>> So, only for signature events. >> Okay. >> To the limitation of um 10,000 now 600 and change. >> So, I I'm still curious as to how much police and fire we need for an event, you know, in the one one section of the parking lot at the mall that may may,
you know, attract a couple hundred people. Well, depends on the on the attendees, depends on the type of event. I think I would have to defer to police because this is something we only facilitate the review uh among the departments because
this is an elders uh requirement, but we are not um the ones providing the service um uh on site. >> Goblin Market the only one that was an issue here. I know you said the brewery, but the brewery is closed. So, [clears throat and snorts] is there other
>> that changed the name? >> Um, the Chris Batista, the 5K. >> The 5K. >> He does it at the mall. It's different events that he does at the mall. >> Oh, you're talking about the running events at the mall. >> Yeah. >> I mean, >> and I don't know.
>> There's police and fire out there. I guess they do, huh? For 5K. >> Yeah. >> For the people. >> What is there? There turkey. There's the Christmas. >> He has a few. I mean, how problem we would that? >> I mean, at the mall, it's usually in the
morning before the mall's even open, and it doesn't require any city streets to be closed off. I don't think >> Well, it sounds like we're not against the mall hosting events. >> Am I correct there? >> That's correct. >> Okay. Um per I mean, personally, we all want them all to do well, and I'm glad they're hosting events continuously, and
I have seen them be successful. So, I guess what we're looking for here is a way to do that to make sure our code says yes, you can do that and you can do it safely if I'm summarizing where we're at over here. So, maybe you can fill in the gaps on what you're missing here to make that happen.
>> But they'll need to >> Before we do that, I I think you're on the right track, but let's talk about Mr. Lopez's. I think you're at the Ace Hardware where the Ace Hardware was. >> Yes. Um, not the former Ace Hardware. >> Yeah. >> Farms. So, that's that's a different
event. It's a smaller area. Um, but you only have that once or twice a year. >> Can you come up to the mic? >> Oh, it's on Obito in the park. Okay. >> Are you done with questions? I was going to just bring them up to the mic. >> The first year they came here. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Good.
>> Yeah, I'm good. So, that's on Obito in the park. So, that's a city city park that's being used. Uh, so then there's some rental fees and things like that. >> I think he mentioned the rental fees, which is not something that we were, you know, ready to discuss tonight. This is not okay. from my department. This is actually
>> Well, that's that's a different different thing. We're closing off a city street. Uh it could be a big event. I think it is a big event. It >> is a big event. >> Uh so why don't we treat that like we do the Christmas tree lighting even though that's a city event, but is it treated
the same way? >> No, these are these are not city events, right? >> I know. I'm just saying it. as far as the number of people and the the steps we take for safety and layout and things like that. >> So this go through the review. I mean we are not the ones establishing how many
police officers um it's police it's the police department. Okay. >> So we we send to um how many reviewers do you have? We we send to risk management. So Jennifer Clark, she's the one that going to see if the insurance is covering the city
for, you know, yeah, >> what what needs to be um covered. Police will establish, you know, if the layout is safe. They make comments. They provide how many um uh police officers should be on site, at what time, you
know. Um fire, we'll do the review and we'll do the inspections for the tent. Um >> public works. >> Okay. I think I might have got this on a tangent, Mr. Lopez is looking for the the rate structure plus maybe an exception for signature. >> Could I >> Yes.
>> try to make something of this. Teresa, will you just scroll down till you get to three? >> You get to >> there. Right there. Stop. Okay. You'll see there where this this is under special event permits. This is the current
uh language of the land development code. Okay. And it says no no event may be more than 14 consecutive days. Uh it may be extended if requested and then no more than one single non-recurring special event shall be issued within a
calendar year. So what we have we have applicants who are doing multiple events but they're changing the name so that they can say they're non-reoccurring is what they're doing. Uh so the idea is that last sentence there. Do we want to change that last sentence to allow
nonprofits or to allow these special events to occur more than one time a year? That's that's really the question. Do we want to change that sentence to allow to basically not not require them just one time a year or not? >> But we're doing it but we're doing it
for the farmers market. So we're already doing >> Well, the farmers market the farmers market was considered a city >> Can you go back up, please? Uh the farmers market was considered a city program for a long time >> is what it's considered a what? >> A city program. So it wasn't it wasn't being charged. That's the thing like
with the Christmas tree lighting. It's a city program. So it doesn't have a special event permit. The city puts it on, you know, and that's the one thing that but let's let's stick with this one first. Do do we want to eliminate that one time a year? I mean that's and we're getting Yeah, we're getting requests.
This would help. This would help the go. Well, actually, goblin market is a separate thing that we need to talk about, but it'll help the guys that like with the gentleman who does the multiple 5k races every year, it'll help anybody who wants to come in and do something
monthly. And these things, you know, we can look at the temporary as far as the temporary time. It's only a day usually, you know, and so even set up and breakdown is only a day. >> Yeah. So that's the thing is that if if council's okay with eliminating that
sentence, then that's that's a simple fix. >> It doesn't sound like it's being abused. I mean, you're talking about, >> you know, 5Ks at the mall and the once a month market at the mall. >> Well, that's the thing. The market is a little bit of a different nuance. Okay.
Um, and it it touches on both of the both of the issues, whether it's multiple times a year as well as fee waver. Okay. C can you scroll down to outdoor sales event? >> Mr. Cobb, can I just add one thing? If it's if that sentence is deleted, then
it can go on daily. So, I don't know if you want to put some type of guard rail in it so that it only happens monthly. >> Once a month is what we're trying to get to. >> Well, it still says can no be no longer than 14 consecutive days, >> right? So presumably that would include if you
>> keep getting the same permit every day >> do a day take it off do a day take it off >> you got to put >> you could do every other day it's 14 days for 12 months then it's have half half a month >> no more than once a month yeah we could we could specify no more than once a month >> and you can even do a max number of days
a month right I don't something along that but it sounds like we're all okay with 5ks in goblet markets as far as once a month yes Yeah. Oh yeah. >> Okay. But if Yeah, I do think we should put some kind of lock on so we don't have a loophole where they're just
continuously operating all year. >> Right. >> Now, here's one of the things, too. If you'll go down to duration of activity. Now, these are outdoor sales events. Okay? This is your Christmas tree guys. This is the fireworks guy, you know, and you can see here where it says no outdoor sales event shall be issued for
more than 30 consecutive days, which obviously the out the like, let's take the fireworks guy. He takes up July 4th, he takes up New Year's, you know, and he's got usually about two or three weeks. But you can see the next one, no more than two non-reoccurring outdoor sales events uh per permit uh per parcel
shall be issued for a calendar year. Then you it says farmers markets will be there is no limitation. Farmers markets aren't considered a special event. They are outdoor sales events. Uh and so they can occur. the fe to get to
the other issue is is that outdoor sales events aren't eligible for a fee waiver. >> That's one of the things. And so just to show you the flexibility of the staff, what they're doing with the goblin market is not only saying, "Okay, we're going to say you're a farmers market, but we're going to give you a special
event permit to be flexible with the fee waiver." So they the staff actually created and said, "We're going to allow you to be a special event permit." when in actuality the farmers market language is down in the outdoor sales. So I guess the question becomes is do we need to
have outdoor do we need to have farmers market language up in special temperament as well so that we can get so that we can put the gar go market into >> Yeah. Is that goblin market and really just a farmers market or is it
>> good? It it it it's close enough. I think [clears throat] we I I don't have a problem saying it is >> okay. >> You know, when I look at it, I don't have a problem. >> It's a market. It's a market like the Friday market was. >> I guess they don't sell groceries, but they sell stuff. >> So, if if you're okay, then we'll we'll
put the farmers market language up in special event as well so that we can classify them that way because they went a nonprofit status >> so that they could take advantage of the special event fee wave is what they did. And I, you know, got to give them credit for that. So, is it a financial burden
on the burden on the city to wave these things every month? >> Uh, you know, it's it's $180 is the is the fee. >> And so, you know, if you're doing 12, what's that? Um, >> on here, last year was 3,420 for all of
them. >> Yeah. >> That we waved in nonprofits. >> Okay. I'm not that concerned about that. >> So, I mean, if that's okay. Yeah, that's the thing. So, I guess that would be the direction I would ask. Do you want us to address farmers markets up in special event as well? >> Yeah, I think the commerce that they
would bring in outweighs the >> value of the fees. >> So, it's just interesting because special u um farmers market in in the I think the root is more of a outdoor sales event but they grow to
have entertainment to have other things that it becomes it ends up becoming a special event. So they have bouncing, you know, houses, you know, the goblin has music. So I think that is where it kind of it's it's
it's a different now. >> Well, do we have a do we have a definition for a farmers market? >> Cuz I mean, if we don't have one, >> who says it can't be entertaining? I just I just >> Unless we define what a farmers market is. I feel you.
>> But they're not bringing in. [laughter] We can define what a farmers market is, but until we do it, >> if they have a market, it sounds >> so okay. But from what I'm hearing is we can go in and revise the land development code so that we can create more frequency within the special events. >> Okay. So,
>> but make sure to put it locked, but it's not every day, >> right? Yes. We are looking at it as once a month. >> Yep. And then we're okay with moving the farmers market into special event. >> So, so once a month, like two, three days. How will be the duration of the
event? One day, two days? >> I mean, most it sounds like all these events we're talking about are a day, right? So, I think we could start there >> and if someone else comes in, it's not going to be reoccurring. >> Sometimes we have break set up and breakdown can be two to three days.
>> Oh, is that count as part of the event time? >> That includes setup and breakdown. I would say no more than three. >> Three days. Okay. So, three days once a month. Once a month. Okay. Yep. >> Okay. >> Okay. Is everybody good with that? >> Yes. >> Yeah, that sounds good. >> Okay. Is there anything else we need to clarify? >> Yes, there's a couple. Okay.
>> No, go ahead. >> Just a couple more. >> Well, should we get the memo? >> The the tent. Did we get a >> Well, you ask for it. I was going Yeah, you bring the bring it up. Yeah, there we go. >> If you could just where [clears throat] we need direction. Um,
>> so the first >> the first one is the first one we're asking for is to re remove tent permit fees from the waiverss in the in the code of ordinances. That's because these tents are these are the large tents that require permits that require
inspections, require fire inspections, require fire extinguishers, require exit signs, all those different things. Require the special tie downs that go with it for the wind loads. Uh there's a lot of lot of u labor intensive work
regarding those permits and the other permits that are allowed as far as the uh >> sign >> special event permit fee. The sign permit that's a counter fee. I mean that's right over the counter. That's temporary sign fee. That's that's that's >> how much is a tent tent permit fee.
>> Uh I'm not really sure what it is. I can't >> off the top of my head. >> Did you say that's a county >> a counter over the counter? over the counter over the counter over the counter fee. >> And so, but with the tent permit fees, that's that's a building permit. That's
an actual building permit where there's, you know, the plans are reviewed, the uh inspections are conducted, fires fire inspections are conducted, you know, everything. Uh, and if you think about it, that's that's where most of the people congregate. So, we need to make
sure that that's a safe space. >> Yeah. So that's why I think that that's why I would recommend to >> maybe like 150 250 >> maybe. I don't know. I I wish I knew. >> How much? >> 240. >> 240. >> That's the size of the tent. >> Is it by the size of the tent? >> I believe so.
>> Only large tents required. >> Only large tent building permit. Do we know if it's a flat fee or it's 240? >> You know, >> it's a different I'm thinking about bounce houses too. Those types of things. There should be a square footage
requirement that drives those. >> Maybe not just a tent because you need those things tied down. Other than the little pop-ups they use at tailgates, I think those are those are okay, right? >> Yes. >> The 10 by10 tents do not require um um building permit fee.
>> Building permit. Only the large tent, >> but circus tents and bounce houses and slides. I think those are all I would consider those all in the same category that need to be reviewed and tied how they're going to secure them. >> Do those currently require inspections?
>> Do do bounce houses the things? >> To be honest, I don't know. >> I'm not sure. >> I'm not sure. >> Paul Beldon is saying no. He's more familiar with, you know, >> he's more familiar bounces [laughter] fees included in the nonprofit fee waved
or no? >> So, they have never been waved >> because we never had a request for those. >> Okay. So, they've always been paid. So, we're just taking it out, but it's not going to affect anybody in a new way. >> Yeah. Okay. That's a Yeah. So, we're not People have not been paying. Everybody's been paying these
>> We have never waved those. >> Okay. For these understood >> tents and bounce houses, do they require insurance? >> Yes, absolutely. >> So, I would think if they require insurance, there's a requirement by the insurance carrier to make sure they're safe and secure.
>> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, can we remove the tent permits from the waiver? >> It sounds like no one's getting them waved anyway, so that's fine. >> Is a 240 the true cost of what it what it is in order to inspect these tents? I'm sorry.
>> Is it $240? Is that the true cost of what it is to inspect these tents? >> Council, I don't have the breakdown. I'll be very honest. Um here I [clears throat] I can provide you. >> We'll have it before we come back. >> Okay, we'll have it before we come back. Definitely. >> That's the charge our building official charges though, right?
>> That's it's a building department to our outside contract. Yes, it's paid over to them. So, okay. >> Okay. >> But we can check. >> Okay. Uh all right. So then the next one, uh
our next request was as far as uh 2-291E and 2-91F and adding in the the language. Let's go back up to E first. adding in this language about city council not approving uh waiverss for those two
types of requests. Uh you know that was one of the things you know there was a workaround uh that the city manager can't skinny manager had to deny it. The city manager couldn't present it to council but the workaround was well we'll just go around the city manager and and give the pres and just ask ourselves
the original when as Miss Dr. Grea said the city council at the time did not want these coming before them. Uh so that's why they had us put this in. The question is is that does this council do you want to consider these requests? I
mean if you do then tell us no, don't put that in there. Leave it as it is. But if you do not wish to consider these requests, then I would say you would need to allow us to put this into the ordinance. And that's really the direction we need tonight is whether or not you want us to put this in this language.
>> Why would Why would we need to see it? We haven't seen them before, have we? >> You've received one recently. >> Which one's up? >> That was the uh the American Legion. They came in and asked you to wave a development permit fee. >> Okay. >> Yeah.
>> So, I mean, that's the thing you want to hop in. >> They're not Okay. Okay. It was a development application, but because they're non nonprofit. >> I get it. Yes. But it was still it was a development application. >> So, council members, let me let me share with you a little bit of the the issue
I've been dealing with with regard to this language. I wasn't here, of course, when this language was written previously. My understanding, the intention at the time when this language and and uh Chris, can you scroll down so they can see uh the other piece as well?
Both of these kind of tie together. The idea is the way this was drafted does seem to some people to imply a loophole. And the loophole is well, it looks like they're not allowed to ask for it. But really what it exactly what it says is
the city manager is not allowed to present the ask, but they can do an end run around the city manager and come make the ask themselves. which kind of makes this if the intention was to make this utterly go away that end run or
loophole you know invites it back in. So the question that I think staff has for the council is is it the present intention to say we don't want to be hearing individual requests for waving this and
waving that for whomever because if it's the intention that you don't want to be hearing all those little bits and bobs in in the meetings, the advice, the recommendation would be let us clarify this language so we can very clearly say nope, city council says uh they're not
hearing it. Not just the city manager can't present it, but they're not hearing it and they can't grant it. They're tying their own hands just to say we're not >> I don't know. We've we've done it once in how long, Brian? >> Since we since we put this rule in. >> You've only had one request, but you did
take action on it. >> Okay. >> It was never granted. >> I don't want to say never [clears throat] ever >> because Yeah, there's situations. I think the American Legion was probably a good situation. They they had questions. I'm not sure we even did anything to
approve or disapprove that. We just answered their questions. >> Right. I mean, we're working on something for them. >> Okay. >> Right now, >> that's separate from a >> separate from this. Yeah. >> But I guess I don't agree. I mean, I agree with being fair to everyone. If we
deny someone, we should deny everyone and keep it even across the board here. But I don't want to like the American Legion's a good example, right? cuz they came up here and made a case and they're very much a one-off. So, I don't want the same kind
of one-off situation to say we can't even go talk about our problem. So, they can still come up in public comment and ask, but if we change this, this is saying our code says we don't do that >> because they'll just call us on the phone and and yell at us. >> But that doesn't mean there might be a
different avenue depending on what it is if it's nuanced where we can see what we can do. But as far as fees, we're blocking that off to make it fair across the board. If I'm reading this right, >> maybe we should be the venue of last resort. If if they can't work it with
staff, yeah, maybe they need to come and see us. >> So, as Brian was indicating, we're we're we're working on a solution that we think is probably a viable one to to come back and recommend to you on the particular matter of the American Legion and their particular thing with the
development fees there. Um, just a general thought to offer to you when I've seen things like this in the past and sometimes it goes on and you don't ever have to deal with it, it's not a problem and so on. I've been in cities I've been city
attorney in cities where um once one or two nonprofits came in and they asked for this then they heard other folks heard about it and then folks come in and ask for that and then it comes to be at every meeting you've got two or three agenda items where you're asking for
dispensation for this that and the other thing and it usually goes you know kind of in a wave when you get a lot of that that's when you start getting a lot of locking down and saying we're not doing anymore. So, >> well, >> just sharing with you. I don't know where this came from in the past, >> but we could come back and circle back
and make that change if we start >> 100%. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But that's that's for nonprofits, not for for profits. It's pretty clear we don't wave them. Correct. >> I don't that. >> Okay. >> So, so well, hold on. Council member, what were you saying? >> Well, I was say that's not what's being
proposed here is is there's not language for nonprofits. But I I'd also like to say that when I when they came and spoke here, if they were asking for a fee waiver, that is not the way I interpreted anything they that they
said. I I don't know. Maybe I'll go back and listen to it. Um and if you say that they're the only ones that have ever asked, it means that none of these have ever been waved in in your knowledge or in your time here. >> Yes, sir. >> Um >> Yes, sir. And and to me I'm not sure
that they did ask but I could be wrong. >> So let me clarify that in preapps they ask >> in preapps they ask they in our standard yeah staff it can be can this be waved? Is there a rebate or you know and our standard >> statement is that staff cannot even
bring to council. So the code of ordinance prevent us for you know taking to council and that usually is um enough to stop the request there. So if there is the opportunity to come, you may see more requests at council,
>> especially if you approve one like like you said. If you do, >> we're not telling you it is it is utterly essential that you make these changes. Just if if it was the desire to make crystal clear, you're not even hearing it. These would be the changes
to do. as you've heard it sounds like it's been generally effective so far the language as is because staff does have a practice of being very clear hey basically communicating don't even ask about it we're not even allowed to present it to them >> without going down the road of well
somebody might think to go and ask you know themselves or what have you >> and as as far as F's concerned F says you know in the table that Teresa could you go up and just show them the That's saying that what F says is that
keep going up. >> Well, >> I don't think it's in there. >> It's not in there. Pull up. >> Yeah. Okay. You'll need to pull up the code of ordinances. >> Ordinance. >> Yeah. The code of ordinances. >> Anyway, the table the table that's referred to is the one that's it has the
city signature events listed. It has the nonprofit events listed. And then it has city events listed. And so what that F says is that if it's not one of those three things, >> then it will not be presented to it will be denied and not presented to the city council. And so that's what that's what
that one's there. >> But it it appears to me that the direction tonight is don't make the change, keep the status quo. >> They're nonprofit. >> I was just asking neighbor if he's nonprofit for his >> They are. Okay. >> They're nonprofit. >> Uh so but and actually Mr. Lopez's
request was going to be my next my next ask. But but yeah, this is the table that it's referring to. So it's it that's what it's talking about. The city signature events, the nonprofit, the events organized by the city. If it's not one of those, then we're not supposed to bring the we're supposed to
deny it and not bring it to you. And so, but it seems to me that the like I said, the direction is don't make the change. >> Okay. And just want to make sure. >> Yeah. I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Um I'm big on not picking winners and losers and it just seems like we
would be able to, you know, do that based on, you know, organizations we liked or people we liked or something like that. If we could come up with, you know, hard rules that say, you know, even even among us, you know, now say like, well, if it's
this type of organization, then then yes, and if it's this type of organization, then no. I know that's a lot harder to do. Um >> well we do that nonprofit versus profit. >> So uh for the development applications that there's not a distinction made
there. >> Um and and the reason that comes up is just just because this is in >> both of these things are covered by the same section of the land development. >> Yeah. This is this is code of ordinances. >> Oh, sorry. Code of ordinances. Code of ordinances.
>> So >> that just kind of got lumped into this. Yes. Right. It they're they're tied together because special events, the permitting side of things is over in the land development code. The fee waver side of things is over in the code of ordinances. So, >> right. Can we
>> Well, I don't know. >> I'm I'm not against adding that in. We've never done it. Um but maybe this is one we bring up again when we've got all of us here. I don't know. I I could see it either way. We've never waved anything. I just don't want to make it so if someone's having an issue that
might not be this, this kind of gets them to not talk to us and be open about it. So, I don't know how you guys feel down there. >> It's easy to see either way. >> Yeah. So, no to that one. >> Say just leave it. Leave it alone for now. >> Leave it alone >> for right now. Leave it on. Leave it
alone. It's >> not going to happen if it doesn't. >> Yeah. Yep. Okay. We'll move on to the next one. >> We have one more question for you. Uh Teresa, could you go up? No. Stay stay there. Stay there on the code of ordinances. because they've already addressed four
and five. We know that. Go up to definition of signature event if you could. And this is something that uh keep keep going up. Yeah, Mr. Lopez brought up as
far as vivo veto and city signature event. Uh yes, they have not been um they haven't been for the five times. They don't meet that. Uh they're
Mr. Lopez, did you have >> if you want to come up here? >> You come up here. >> I'm trying to remember if setup and breakdown or was it all in one day? >> It was all in one day. >> It was all in one day. So they're not multiple days, but when you look at what
they did, um they did require city services. They did. We had to shut off the road. I mean, it was it took up the park. They they they they encompassed the park. Uh they had people from other areas that were attending. It wasn't just, you know, Oto folks. They had
people from outside that were attending. They they met all of them except for they haven't done it five times and it's not a multi-day event. Um so that's that's the city signature event
definition right there. It doesn't it um it doesn't say there is no language that okay meet all of them. It doesn't say strictly meet all of them. It doesn't say okay meet five or six of them but it does say that to be able to be a city
city to be a signature event city council has to pass a resolution is what it says. So the question becomes now the other signature events they all went through the they all met the they met all the criteria. Um but the question becomes is do you
want us to as in the case of veto that is on the same scale. Uh maybe not. I know when we were talking about it I even actually made the recommendation set up the day before. >> Um >> you did >> but um >> but we were concerned about the cost associated with it. >> Exactly. Yeah. because there was
overnight police protection in like that. >> Uh but the the thing becomes is do you want us to look at this definition to give some leniency so that an event like them that's not
every day I mean that's not multiple days that or less than five times. >> Well it sounds like >> how many times have you had the event? >> Just one. Okay. >> Yeah. They're they're nowhere near. >> I was like, you put us in a a difficult spot here because I know we talked about this a lot when we put in the signature
event and we put the five years because the downside of not having it is anybody who does a one-year event that is as successful, you guys did great your first year, which is why we're stuck in a nuance here. Uh could go and and pull this and we would kind of put ourselves
in a pickle with event budget. >> Correct. >> Um so I don't want to lift the five-year exception because of that. I would love for Viva Ovido to be a signature event, but I I do think there was a really valid reason why we had that rule, but I
don't know if that's how you guys >> What was your option B? Option A was to be a signature event rate structure. >> It's a a specific nonprofit rate schedule that was at cost that there was no profit to the city for the actual expenses incurred by the city for
producing the event or helping us produce the event. We we don't make a profit on those fees, do we? >> Uh we do have some events that uh we we do get revenue higher than than our than our cost. We do have some that do that.
Okay. >> Uh >> most of them don't. I mean, we still we're still around the 50%. >> Did we do that for that event? >> Uh that event I would have to ask Mr. Ben about. I'm not sure. >> But if I can give you guys kind of the insight of what we spent, right? Um, we
spent roughly $7,000 for this grassroots nonprofit, no taxpayerup supported event um, paid to the city. Roughly about $7,000. That was a major burden for our entire board um, for something that was
a labor of love with us putting in hundreds of hours to do. So what we look at right is what does it really cost the city to clean up the place which we also put in a lot of sweat equity to clean up the place >> but it's police too right
>> we we have no issues with the police cost to us that's not that's a that's non that's a non-factor uh the rental rate was about $5,000 just based for the rental rate but then there's equipment pieces that we need to rent as well and you you are correct I stand corrected police on top of that was about 1,700 so
when you totaled the rentals the equipment and um it came up to and then the officers that was about a total of $7,000 uh give or take what we're seeking for I mean we'd love to I we understand why the 5 years are there for signature event you don't want a Johnny
come lately saying hey I'm going to produce this X event right um and we want to make sure that the event is tried it's tested it's successful it's well organized our feeling is like gosh at year one we hit it out of the park and according to Oto OPD, they they
equated it to Ovito's 100th celebration as far as manpower, as far as organization. Um, to us, that's that's nothing to sneeze at. That's nothing to overlook. So, for us, we're like, we we we exceed the the the caliber of events that
>> So, I don't I agree with all that. You guys have been very successful. We're happy to have you here. We're kind of stuck in limbo, like I said. So, I think what's important as far as to me is what is our raw cost? Did we charge more than what it was? And I don't know that you have those answers tonight. Um, but this
might be something where we need to make a >> some kind of category in the middle here that if we have an attendance of above [clears throat] whatever that they can go in this kind of probation zone until the 5 years are up. But I I think
tonight what we're looking at is staff to explore options because we can't sit here tonight and say here's what we're going to do. Um but I I don't deny that that this is a good event and a big event and we should see what we can do to support that. >> And we're only just flagging it now. We know it wasn't necessarily addressed in
your agenda packet tonight. The only reason we're flagging it, our next event is scheduled for October 17th and and we we need we're in the budgeting phase right now for what what's going to be the real costs for this event. So, right now we're kind of like handcuffed. How much do we really need because we don't
know if there's going to be any will on this council to make a change there that will help us alleviate some of that hardship that we experienced last year. >> Sure. So, Mr. Beldon, I don't know if you had something to add there. >> As far as the event is concerned, we did
charge the um the fees scheduled um or actually the fees that were on the fee schedule adopted by city council. >> Um you know, we don't waver from those fees. So, we put together the the true costs per that fee schedule. Yes, I know Mr. Lopez is looking for what the actual labor cost, but we have a rental
schedule that is comparable with other communities in Central Florida, other locations, and in this case, it was a huge success. Um, I think it's something that we're looking forward to um working with Mr. Lopez and his team in the future. Um there could be a few options on the table for consideration. um
something similar to what we've done with the MLK celebration of the park where there's a partnership agreement um that's laid out that we could partner with with this group. It talks about city responsibilities. It talks about um the organization's responsibilities. There could be some common ground there
that could benefit both groups and it could accommodate some of these requests in that structure. Um if the five-year plan was still in effect to become a signature event. Um or we could also through the budget process evaluate our fee schedule and maybe for those nonprofit organizations that apply for a
special event permit nonprofit status um corporation organization um then we could um attribute some some fees associated with those large scale events at Center Park um to um account for those true costs of staff.
>> I'm going to Oh, go ahead. >> Just a quick question. Are the fees paid upfront before the event or the can they be paid for the revenues? >> Typically deposit paid and then they um in this case we actually had a I forget was it we had a two was it a down payment and then a final payment but
typically um it's got to be paid by by the time the event is. >> Yeah. I was thinking if if it's successful enough there may be some revenues that would you can not burden you before the event but you can pay it up afterwards. That's something that we could always work at um through an agreement.
>> I think nonprofit I I'll speak for us. Um adding that option, right? Like, hey, we're going to work with you and um there's a fee schedule and then a a portion of it can be I think the police department has been really flexible with us, right? They have a similar schedule
where after the event you get the final bill cuz they know how many overtime hours were worked and so on. You get your final bill and you pay it. um that that as as um u the director correctly stated, you have to have all of the balance paid upfront or else you're not
getting that permit. >> Yeah, maybe we can do something like that. >> So, I'm going to I'm going to put this as a we're going to look into it because no one has answers right now, but thank you for bringing it to our attention. And >> I will add one more note, too. I think um we we [clears throat] did or or the
organization did cram all the uh um the setup and breakdown in one day. Um, I truly feel it would have probably been more successful had they had more time. It could have been a multi-day event if you included a day setup prior and then probably lead into another day of cleanup. I mean, they were there until 11:00 p.m.
>> Staff recommended that. They did recommended that and it was just our concern about the cost associated. >> It would have been another 5,000 for because you got to because you're that's for the whole park, right? Do I remember right? >> There was they rented the whole park.
there was key components of, you know, the like the the stage, they had access to the stage, they had access to the cultural center, um the side stage, everything, but we probably could have >> um based on the current structure, we could have extended it where if they had a setup in a certain area, we could have
broken out that cost for the organization and then had a full rental of the park on one day, whereas maybe components of the park on a separate day for including >> we're still into thousands of dollars for being able to set up and clean up on >> based on their request. Yes. >> Yay.
>> Based on the request. Yeah, >> that's >> okay. All right. >> I'll talk about that. >> I think we're we'll get somewhere there. But, uh, is there anything else on this topic? >> One thing I can tell you is that as far as the personnel costs, those are what our costs are. I mean, that's as far as
the personnel costs, right? >> So, really seems to me the the real issue is the rental fee. >> Yes, sir. >> We can [clears throat] work on that. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> All right. Sounds good. Thank you. >> Cool. Is there anything else for special event apps and fees?
>> Number let's see um >> no they said it was okay we could do once a month once a month. >> Number four >> just what Mr. Boss just asked about number four and that was the uh >> uh limiting the waiverss
>> uh to only once per year and if I remember your discussion was that it was okay to give to grant the waiver with each application if I remember correctly. >> I also did not hear the the conclusion clarification number four. >> Yep. if if we are or not limiting the
nonprofit um um >> if they can do once a month applications then they eligible for the >> and that is if I'm correct that's already happening and we that's that $3,420 fee >> last year >> but I think your direction when we were
discussing it earlier was that it's okay to get let them have the uh >> and that's something you know if that's if the number all of a sudden skyrockets you know we can revisit in future years right Okay. >> Okay. Is that correct with everybody? >> Yeah. >> Yep. So, leave it as is. >> Deputy Mayor, could we take a two-minute
recess before we go into the next item? >> Yes, no problem. So, we're going to go in recess and we'll be back at 5 minutes. Thank you. >> Who else needs to be here, Brian? Because it takes a while. >> Just give me the uh give me the let me
have Do you need microphone? >> No, I just need that plug right there. >> That's all I need. >> It's okay. >> But no, they needed to hear what you all >> Yeah, cuz it's it's so much, right?
>> No, still not. >> I don't think What I would want to come back >> not not to push that now. Okay. >> Okay. And I'll
probably >> Thank you. All right. >> Thank you. I'm sure I'm Sarah. You volunteering. I just got back this morning. >> You think I heard nice feathers? >> Nice to meet you.
>> Nice to meet you. Saturday. >> I'm sure you walk in, they'll tell you exactly >> [laughter] >> Okay. Are you guys ready? >> Yeah. >> All right. So, we're going to move on to our other order of business, which is
the order of business and rules and procedures for public meetings, standard operating procedures. So, Mr. Mr. Cob, I don't know if you want me to >> I would just say that that's the thing is that at your last meeting you gave us directed to put this on the agenda. We have on the screen the order of business
standard operating procedure. If there's any part of that that you have questions about, we also provided it as an attachment with your memorandum and we would just be looking for any direction you may have for us tonight. >> Sure. So, I brought this up because I've
brought up concerns a few times about um meetings that council members are having in a uh maybe not the most transparent way or the most non-cooser way that I've seen in any kind of city council function in in
the state. So, based on our past discussions, I asked for consensus tonight and I did talk to Mr. about this before a little bit, but I'm I'm interested in seeing if we have any suggestions on how we make our meeting requirements more clear so we're all on
the same page. And I mean that when I could use clarification on and in our operating procedure on how we call a meeting, where we call a meeting, where we have them, and how we can have them be as transparent as possible in compliance with Sunshine Laws because
the way it's currently going on, I have concerns about that. So, I don't know if you have anything to propose here on on those items. >> I have a couple thoughts to uh to share. Um, as you recall from your last council
meeting, I uh kind of in a bumbly way, if you will, uh, outlined that that the types of meetings you were talking about were uh, not meetings that were called either as regular or special meetings in
the way generally contemplated by the charter, but that the idea around the meetings being held were that they were meetings between two or more members of the council that were with the proper notice intended to
comply with the three elements of the state sunshine law. Okay, this this idea of this distinction between the two is uh sounds a little weird, I know, but it's not completely alien. All right. Something I just wanted to throw out to
give you a little bit of of context where such a thing exists but within parameters that are established as rules. And we'll get back around and give you some thoughts based on the concerns you shared with me before. Um there is and I I I may have mentioned it
uh we've had discussions uh individually. I've had discussions with a number of um council members, you know, concerning these meetings over the last many months. Uh and I may have mentioned these then. Uh Orange County government, Orange County Board of
County Commissioners has within their administrative regulations and their rules of procedures a concept of what's called a uh noticed meeting. And it is kind of that first part of what I just indicated where you may have two or more
members, not necessarily a quorum of the governing body there that uh would meet to discuss about some subject that may foreseeably come before the board of county commissioners there for potential action. With that concept though, they have a
number of rules that laid out precisely how that works. notice, specific notice requirements for that, where they're to be held, how minutes are taken, all these different things that kind of give some structure around all of that. I mentioned that just to to say that it
actually those rules go through and express expressly indicate, yeah, these are meetings under the state sunshine law, but uh they're not what's generally contemplated as these types of meetings under the charter. So that's where this kind of amorphous idea it's an example
of that. Turning deputy mayor to discussions we've had in the past and the concerns you shared with me. You shared concerns about you does this uh comply with uh either the letter or you
know the intent and you know general understanding of the sunshine law these types of meetings and so on. And you've expressed to me, you know, asked me how is it that you could put some more parameters on this or or put it under
clear rules and procedures for the council to have, you know, some direction or say in how anything would work or say they don't happen or or what have you. along those lines and you have before you your uh rules and procedures.
Um right now I did do some thinking uh on these on these uh along these lines and took a look at your current rules and procedures and had some general thoughts that might be tools or building blocks if it was the ultimate desire or
direction of the council to um at one extreme say no more of these or at some other to say we're going to clarify our rules and say these rules rules extend to encompass
those types of meetings as well. And these are the rules we set out for. Okay. So, these initial thoughts are just kind of the extending out and making clear in the council's rules that the council's rules govern those type of
meetings as well. All right. So, the first general idea and this is this is just kind of in idea stage here. Now, um, as I was thinking through this was to clarify that all meetings between two or more members of the council, all
right, at which um, uh, at which matters that may foreseeably come before the council for action are to be discussed, have to be held in accordance with your rules and procedures. All right, that's that's
seems almost like a tutology. It seems, you know, pretty, you know, short and direct, but it's clarifying, it's adding additional clarification to that scope up there, if you will. Procedure shall apply to all city council public meetings and work sessions. It makes
clear that these rules or whatever you put in these rules encompass and govern those types of meetings as well. All right. One thing I noticed, by the way, as I as I look through the rules of procedures
is um the charter contemplates basically two types of meetings of the council called under the charter. Regular meetings and special meetings. Okay. Didn't see any mention of special meetings in in your rules of procedures.
Um so just kind of as a cleanup or clarification because it's my understanding this is the way you all have been doing uh things. In any event, have a clarification that any special meetings called under the charter are governed under the rules for regular meetings. Okay? Because I I think it's
my understanding that's been the practice with the way you all been doing things. Um, if there was a concern about location of meetings that are uh being held in accordance with uh rules and
procedures, it is uh within the purview of the council to set out a rule that says where meetings subject to these rules are to be held. For example, again, these are just ideas for you to play around with. Uh the council could
set a rule that all meetings of the uh all meetings subject to these rules will be held in the city council chambers unless directed otherwise by a majority of the council. Obviously there are reasons and I understand you all have had in the past meetings in other places
than city council chambers very common. Um but that's just you know the parameters of one idea to be done. Um, with regard to notice of meetings and with regard to interaction with staff,
uh, an additional piece to kind of make all this this work and having these rules and procedures, uh, apply to to all types of meetings would be including in the rules and procedures procedures
direction to staff. that staff only provide notice of meetings that are to be to held in accordance with these rules and procedures. Again, pretty straightforward and direct there, but
clarifying in this context here. Um and then the um one additional bit it has been the practice as I understand it uh in city of Ovidto and it's it's a practice
that's common uh among a lot of most frankly local governments throughout the state that where there's going to be some event where it's anticipated that two or more council members may show up some county event or uh you know some
public event or what have you that a uh courtesy notice uh be given if you will. I call it a courtesy notice because while sometimes they say in accordance with the sunshine law we're giving this notice if it's not a meeting that is required to meet those three elements of
the sunshine law. The sunshine law doesn't require a notice that just says these two human beings who happen to be city council members are going to be physically in this place at this time. But it's a general expectation most places in the state that you'd get a
heads up at that. And so OVO has done that and posted and said, uh, these folks, you know, two or more members of the city council or of advisory boards may be at this county event or be at this event or that event or what have you.
The thought I had was to accommodate that as well because we were saying before the city, you know, city staff can't notice any meetings between council members that would be uh, you know, subject to the sunshine law and these rules unless they comply with all
these things and put in kind of an exception for those special events. The thought I had though was some tweaks to that language to make crystal clear that this is just an event they're going to be at and that they are not going to
be discussing matters that may foreseeably come before the council among themselves. So, >> and just to be clear on that, so if we if I showed up to a brunch and let's say council member showed up to and we didn't expect it as far as there's no
sunshine law issue as long as we don't start talking to each other about things we're going to vote on. So, that would be something we can notice and still fall under that kind of category. >> You notice in accordance with your >> Now, if someone starts talking about something we're going to vote on, we should probably leave the room and then come back when that's over just to make
sure that's still kosher. >> Yeah. the the the matter and this is where it gets into a little bit of nuance. Uh the if if it's merely you're at an event and two of you are there and uh a member of the public or some other official from some other government or
or what have you starts to speak to some matter that could foreseeably come before you. All right, you haven't necessarily crossed the line yet. The primary thing that the sunshine law uh gets down and you know regulates and um
it requires you to comply with the uh the required three elements is when you have interaction or discussion between those members. Okay. And that that that discussion can be direct or it can be
indirect. Um if if folks end up structuring their speech publicly such that it's it's demonstrabably you know to reach another member nearby uh as a subtrauge around it that's going
to run into a problem. But if it is uh if it is merely two of you talking in the room at the same time or or what have you uh or just someone else mentions a matter that could foreseeably come before the council, those don't really trigger the issue.
>> Okay. Yeah, one of my concerns was with these meetings and it was explained to me somewhat why why they were being noticed is that a a member of the public might ask a question and they wanted to be able to allow it. But even if it
wasn't noticed and there were two members of council there, one could get up and leave and the other person could answer the question. But then my secondary concern is I'll call it a conduit issue where the member of the public gets the answer and then starts
talking about it in front of the other council member so that it's like the [clears throat] discussion occurred between the two of them anyway. And what do you do about that? >> Sure. So, um, the the issue ultimately becomes
the back and forth and and watching out for conduits, uh, you know, or or falling into a situation where you you may have a conduit situation is, um, is always something anybody on any board subject to Sunshine Law has to be on
guard to. um merely coming to learn that uh that another council member mentioned something you know to one person about some matter. All right. Again is not triggering it. >> Right. Where where you do run into
problems is if you have someone come to you whether in a public setting but more commonly in a private setting coming to share with you. Uh Commissioner X you told me to tell you
this or Commissioner X is going to do this D. All right. Um that is I'm shifting over to giving [clears throat] a sunshine on speech now. that this this is the type of uh of activity or
behavior I normally counsel people to stay away from. Um but incidentally learning that you know someone gave a [clears throat] speech or wrote a letter to the editor because that's a thing you know or posted on Facebook that they're
you know hold this position on something another council member merely learning about that is not in the end the sunshine issue. It's communication back and forth. Really getting into a big >> what if another council member put their view on Facebook after reading the first one's opinions.
>> A great question. You get into you get into that one person posts what their view is on Facebook, not in a discussion. I know I'm sorry we're going down kind of side track, but we can >> it's semi-relevant to the matter in it. Um,
someone uh a council member posts their opinion on something on just their own post. Another council member posts their own opinion on their own post. That ultimately is not much. It's not it is very much a slippery slope, but that
alone is not a sunshine issue. >> Okay. >> Where you get into sunshine issues, frankly, is in the comments. If what a council member what any anyone subject to sunshine law should never do is council member X posts something on
Facebook then council member Y gets into the comments and disagrees. Now you're really in Now do I have a case that tells you that? No, because you know haven't had too much of that go to a DC Supreme Court. Yeah. Don't get into the comments and disagree with your fellow
council member. The point though is that um I I very much appreciate and I in full disclosure I I think you all uh council members all know I I you know I have
done my best as as this um activity has has you know started and progressed and so on. My job ultimately is to watch out for the city and watch out for the five of you. And so when it comes to uh you
know with regard to notice for these types of meetings as they are, I did the best I could to tune them up so that I can say all the more uh you know with a with a you know firm conviction that I say this complies with all three
elements of the sunshine law and so on. All right. >> Yep. So that that's a separate issue from what I would offer to you all is that it is ultimately within the purview of the council in your rules and procedures to
put some rules. >> Okay. >> Give the three elements to me again. >> The three elements you were just referring to. >> Sure. Uh there has to be uh reasonable notice of meetings. Um >> public location. >> Thank you. Yeah. Uh it has to be open to
the public. uh reasonable notice has to be given and uh minutes have to be taken promptly recorded and available for public inspection. >> Okay. >> So you hit those three elements then you've satisfied the state sunshine law.
>> Okay. that that that's not a because that state minimum is satisfied does not mean additional rules can cannot be you put on within the parameters of being a member of the council.
>> Let's talk about reasonably noticed. Um >> please >> and I don't know Eleon you can you can help me out here madam clerk. It seems like a lot of the events that have been noticed,
uh, I don't recall getting a an an invite on my calendar that this is a a meeting to discuss whatever, whether it's a book club or a eat and greet. And so, are the notices required to be sent
out to all council members, or can they be exclusionary and just be noticed to one or two of us? >> Sure. So the the notice I was referring to under the state sunshine law and again that's that that's the thing here is when we're bringing it back to how we
do things here we can layer on additional you know rules and expectations and so on under the state sunshine law the requirement for notice is simply that there be public notice. All right. And so public notice that would comply with uh any sort of other
uh notice for for other things that require public notice under the sunshine law or so on. And so in the city that includes, as I understand it, Ilia, correct me if I'm wrong, uh posting on a board uh the city has as well as on the city website.
>> Okay. So those those two things in the practice of the city and under state law satisfies that state law requirement for notice. >> Okay. >> Does the name of the meeting matter? >> I'm sorry. >> Does the name of the meeting matter? If
I am invited to let's say coffee with the mayor, I would assume that's a meeting to have coffee with the mayor, not to have a meeting that goes through our entire agenda and discusses every topic we're going to talk about. So does the like do we need to put requirements
on an agenda needs to be given or that is included in the notice? I mean our normal meetings when you show up you know what we're going to talk about in what order and what the topics are. If I'm invited to ex right there coffee and chat I would not expect
to be missing a meeting where other council members are talking about anything in the city from that notice. So does that comply as a notice as a meeting by calling it a meeting greet? >> So two different things again
>> minimums under the state sunshine law, >> right? >> And then you know potentials for for things if it was the interest of the council to get in things in your rules. The uh state sunshine law does not require an agenda.
This is this is a great surprise to a lot of people and it's a surprise that it's never been added actually. Um, but the sunshine law does not require an agenda. And in fact, there's there is some some good case law
that goes into, you know, why agendas aren't required and you don't have to stick just to the agenda and all these things under the state law because all those cases say all that stuff is for the cities and counties to figure out their particular rules of how they do it
because under the state law, these state minimums, they don't want to uh overly regulate the flexibility may have, for example, at one of your city council meetings, that's a regular city council meeting, you have six things on the
agenda, a seven thing pops up, everybody's on board, you know, we got to do this thing, but it wasn't on our agenda. We can't do anything about it. That's that is the rule in some cities, by the way, and it is it ties your hands
a lot. Uh other places they say, well uh if it's if it's easy and everybody's on board, they do it. It wasn't on the agenda, but action is taken. There's a vote and it's done. So that that's an aside to say why, you know, from a state
law perspective. Agendas are not strictly required. >> Now, that still doesn't address the public comment. a question from the public that's answered at the meeting um and discussed someone at the let's say
at the meet and greet asks a question on city business and they're both there to discuss it uh in the open. >> So having an agenda might not even uh it might prohibit that but it really doesn't when it comes under public comment.
Sure. I I I ju just them sharing thoughts or what have you. I could I could uh >> Well, well, going back to the the meet and greets, uh a person from the public shows up and they're talking about a book. >> Mhm. >> And he starts asking about uh you know, something the city's doing, you know,
and off the off the intended title of the the meeting and then it gets into a discussion on city business rather than chapter five of the book or whatever they're talking about. It it I I imagine it could be. I haven't been to any of uh
those meetings. Um but to to the point of >> when we have these meetings and then going into it, I think the concern I'm hearing is going into the meetings uh that there is no laying out at least of the intended
topics to be discussed or or or anything like this. >> Um >> well, are you looking for like my concerns with them so we can see how to address this? I mean, I think we all have regular meetings and we have a we have rules of procedure here. We have a clerk who takes minutes. Um, we have
public comment. The public knows where to meet. Um, this is not a business where you have to pay to go in and even if it's not required, this is a neutral place um that represents the city. Um, after we have a meeting, if I didn't attend, I can go watch it online and
know every word everybody said. It's very, very transparent. um these meetings that are happening are not at our scheduled times that I I won't say, you know, we took this job and expected meetings to be certain times that's when we're available, but that is true. So,
if you're making meetings when we are not available, that we can't rewatch, that the public is not used to the location. I don't find that transparent at all. And then I keep getting meeting minutes sent to my email where I'm seeing multiple members of council
discussing things we are about to vote on and it might say the bullet points, hey, we talked about this, but I don't know what was said or agreed upon. And frankly, even if it's written there, the only person writing the meeting minutes is not checked and balanced by members
of staff, which is how we do it here. So I'm my main concern is transparency, fairness, and following the intent of sunshine law, which I did not I did not make the sunshine law, but we have to follow it. Um it sounds like we h currently operate in a way where we are
checking the boxes, but I'm still uncomfortable with how it works. Now, I know the intent is to talk to residents and be able to fill their questions and answer them, and that is absolutely 100% our jobs. It's always been our jobs. And
I've never seen a problem doing that as individuals. So this new multiple show up at the same time. I mean, that's what a town hall is. When we have big issues that we need to address, we've done that for the police department. We come into meetings and we say, "Hey, we need to town hall so we can all be there." And
we did that in the exact setting I'm talking about. We sat in here. We noticed it properly. We held it like a true meeting. So, I have concerns about having extra meetings that are not transparent, that are not recorded the same way, that are not held the same
way, and I would frankly like to fix that. Um, but I don't know where everybody else stands on this, but that is my concern. And I do see a lot of the suggestions here. It sounds like, you know, we are as a council and I think almost every other city has parameters
around how you can host a meeting. So, uh, and maybe I heard you wrong, but you said Orange County does let more than one council member meet, but it's still in a regulated fashion where it kind of fixes and has those safeguards where it's recorded. It's got a city clerk or a staff member. You're allowed to do it,
but in a way that I can go listen to it later or do something. So, there's an in between here where we can get comfortable, but I think where we're currently operating at just to me does not seem right. So, I I brought this topic up because I'm
looking for consensus here on what how people want to operate our board. >> My my issue again, I don't think there's anything to do about is these meetings that are happen and I'll I'll just pick the golf one that was on Friday.
when we have a council member go and you know say we're going to have a discussion about the management of the golf course is it interpreted as the council has a problem with the golf course and it's not the case it's just one individual but I think that's just human perception and I don't think
there's anything really you can do with that you know well the meeting at the golf course was was titled uh burger night and talk about golf course management And there was very little discussion about that in
the entire meeting. It was mostly about the the conservation discussion and then other issues. So, you know, I think the title might be a little misleading. I have the same concern when you put a notice out for a
book club and then the discussion is all about other stuff that the city is doing. So, are we on board with looking into some I guess I don't want to say regulations, but rules among council to make us all on the same page?
>> I am. Uh I just got to go back to the fact that there's no rule against two council members being at the same in the same room at the same time. You just can't discuss city business, >> right? >> You can't have that discussion. I you know we can go to restaurants and
you know events and picnics and car shows and everything else. We just are under that that uh restriction on not to talk about city business. It's a pretty simple thing to follow if it if you keep it in your head. >> Can I say a few things about this that
have come up? I wrote down a lot of things. Don't don't be scared. I might not say all these things, but um is [snorts] that all right? Because I mean we're talking about me. It's not not a secret. Uh it's public record in fact. Um so uh talking about the golf course
meeting uh that you brought up. Um the golf course meeting is a that something like the golf course meeting is something that any council member could do without public notice. um have a meeting and speak about an issue and try
to get residents to um on board with your side of the issue so that they can contact their other uh elected representatives and try to convince them of the same thing. Um that that's really just a matter of democracy. That's what
representative government is. Um that's the meeting that triggered this and >> that I want to pause. that is not the meeting that triggered this. >> Okay. >> And I and to what you just said, I totally agree. Yeah, you can call a meeting at the golf course by yourself. That's fine. >> Okay. And and so that appeared to be the
impetus, but but per uh perhaps not. Um the the timing was was that way. Um, what public notice does is public notice and submitting minutes to to meet all three of the requirements of Sunshine
makes it so that if another member wants to show up and offer um, you know, offer opinion, offer anything like that, that you're protected under the sunshine. that you can that you can now feel free to say whatever you want at that meeting
and not have somebody come back later and say, "Oh, that was a sunshine violation." No, cuz you you met all three things. If you don't allow that, then one member can say whatever they want, perhaps unchecked by uh others. and and I so I think that that the golf
course meeting is a good example of why public notice is a thing that benefits the other council members that did not call the meeting. Now, that is a separate thing from the other meetings that we've talked about, but I think
it's important to at least ponder that. Um, one of the things you brought up was uh the intent and general you brought this up the intent and uh general understanding of the sunshine law. Um, and and you brought up uh checking boxes
and you know when it doesn't meet the spirit of the sunshine law. Um, the courts and the office of the attorney general have had five decades um to to interpret it a certain way to to add things to it. And I I don't know how
much you've gone and and read the attorney general opinions. I mean, if just Google for Florida attorney general opinions, and you can Google Sunshine, um there is there there are piles and piles of them. And I've read I've read a lot of them. Um the the previous city
attorney sent a uh paper to um me or all of us or maybe I sent it to all of you at any rate. uh the Gleon paper and it has a lot of citations in it where the courts have said where people have tried to argue that hey I don't think this
meets sunshine and the courts say things like we think that items like this are best left to the legislature which means that you know these that these ideas of in general like intent or what the spirit of the sunshine law is the court
keeps coming back and saying that's not what it says and that might be your opinion that somebody or that you want or that you think that that might be the intent. But the courts have in many cases chosen not to um say not not to
say that that is true or that these things are violations or these other things um are required um you know as to the as to the location um and you know Mr. folks and I have have talked about this, right? Um, as far as location, uh,
and we've come to an understanding about certain things like uh, having it at a private residence could have a um could be could could be something that's uh, difficult. So, uh, I have not attended any at a private residence since we've
had that conversation. Um, there uh, where I go with this. So, one thing that is that that you brought up, which is which was a really good point, is that um a location such as a private residence of a council member um could
have a chilling effect on who might show up, right? So, somebody's who's in opposition or a political foe of that person might, you know, might might be hesitant to show up there and and say something. Um and that and that's true.
And I I gave that some thought. I I would say that each location because every location is different, right? Has an effect of both chilling and warming, right? So, um, city hall might be a place that has a chilling effect on some uh because you got to
walk by the cameras and you sit in this cold building and it's sterile. Um, having an a meeting at a uh restaurant might have a chilling effect because like you said, I mean, even though the public notice says, you know, you don't have to buy anything, somebody might feel like they have to buy anything, but
it also might have a warming effect because somebody might feel like, hey, I can go here and have a chat rather than come into this place and be intimidated by, you know, people sitting up high and and all of that stuff. I mean, that that's that's the reason stuff's built like I mean, that's the way a courtroom
is is built with the with the judge way up high. It's it's supposed to convey a certain thing. A restaurant is is is different than that. Um, and will attract a different set of people who might not want to come in here for a meeting like this. Uh, you
talked about the courtesy notices. Um, courtesy notices are, uh, for, as I understand it, they're they're only for public events, right? So, a private event like the employee lunchon that we'll probably uh some of us will be at on on Wednesday, that's not a public
event. That's a city thing for city employees. That doesn't get public notice because it's not a public meeting even though multiple council members are there and like we've sat at the same table before and we just avoid city issues, right? And it's it's not a big deal. So, um you know, like like you
said, Mr. Britain. [clears throat] Um, you can get together and you can just not talk about sunshine issues and you know to events like Ido Veto. Uh, that um I did that and you said that you know
uh I think it was maybe you both mentioned it. You know if somebody starts talking about something you can get up and leave. I I literally got up and left in one of them you know because it was you know during the water stuff and somebody said hey tell us about the water stuff. And I said, "Hey, this is your event. I'm just going to go sit outside." And I sat outside for a few
minutes and then uh at some point the mayor left and then I told them what I think about the water issue, right? Um so that can happen, but for issues that are, you know, Sunshine's very clear on issues which can foreseeably come before
your vote, before your board for a vote. Um there are many things about city government which will probably not become come before our board for a vote. Um but maybe adjacent to those things. Um there are county issues that might if
they go a certain way spill over into uh city. There are state issues that will spill over into city. Having the public notice and having minutes in my mind is a is a layer of protection so that [clears throat] hey something gets
talked about well it just gets written down if a resident asks a question that is fairly innocent or seems to be clear of sunshine but then the conversation kind of goes to something that like well that could be something that we could that we talked about that it's a layer it's a layer of
protection right so you know as far as you can get up and leave like you can get up and leave. But at at the same time, if you if you follow the three points, right, you meet the three points of sunshine, then you're also protected that way. Uh, as far as far as notice,
um, Mr. Britain, you asked about the calendar. Um, certainly there's public notices on the website. My understanding is that these meetings are all put on all of our calendars. My the way I see it on the calendar, I see all of your names listed on it. So if there is a
issue of of that, are you able to speak to that, Miss Rivera? >> I guess I'll speak to that. Um, I do get an invite to go to coffee with the mayor. And >> I mean, that's not a meeting invite to me. >> That's that's an invite to go have coffee with the mayor.
>> Okay. >> That's not an invite to go potentially discuss things that are going to come before me on council. That's that's not descriptive of that's >> the meeting notice I went out for for last Friday's golf meeting. I thought it was a a special meeting of council. I
didn't know it was a meet and greet or a a town hall and I actually said why do we have to have it on Friday afternoon? Why don't we have it in city hall on Thursday >> and then the clerk provided clarification and that was the mayor calling one of you know something similar to some of the other meetings she she has for meet and greets and
things like that. Uh and then I was specifically asked that uh I can attend. There was I was given permission to attend >> and I assume that was okay to attend. >> Okay. >> I I would I would say um Deputy Mayor that um as far as interpreting it a
certain way um you said that you you get all of the minutes from these. So I but perhaps over the last you know over the last year that I would have expected that you would have come to expect that. So I I
asked to get all the meeting minutes anytime you guys met since I learned that they were actually meetings. >> Um I don't agree with them. I guess I guess everything you just listed is explaining Sunshine Law >> after talking to four different attorneys. Um no one thinks this is a good idea even if they think it can
squeak by and check the boxes. So hold on. So go ahead. My point here is not about the golf course meeting. >> My issue here is the effects of what is going on. >> So if you have a meeting and I get a meeting, so I don't I don't attend this
meeting cuz I don't want to make a quorum first of all and sometimes I'm working. So it's not at our normal meeting minutes and and locations that the public expects which I don't think is transparent. Um, but besides the point, I don't, let's say I don't attend this because I can't, even if I wanted
to. I get a set of meeting minutes that said, "Hey, we discussed our water bill and that's all it says." I don't know what inner conversations went on during that meeting and I'm not privy to them because it's not recorded. It's not held in city hall. There's no staff that
watches it. There's no regulation around how we hold a meeting, which we have about all of our other meetings that we do officially. So my issue might not be whether or not this is Sunshine Kosher. It's to me it is not transparent to the board, even if you think it's
transparent to the public. So I have asked um multiple attorneys. Um, I haven't found one that says this is a good idea other than the mayor herself, but she's she's not really my attorney. Um, but even if it is a good idea, it's
not a good idea to me. Um, so I would like to put some constraints on this to make this more transparent. If you want to meet with another council member like Orange County does, I don't have an issue with that. I can go watch the audio. It's transparent. You can still meet the the public. But the current way
that there are these meetings that are random times a day that are said they're they're coffee meetings or eat oto meetings or things like that. I don't think it is transparent to us when we come to a vote that we do not know
what's going on in those meetings. Um so I would like to add some rules here to put us all on the same page and that's where I'm coming from. So, uh, he mentioned a lot of things like, uh, well, we got to put at
the top like all meetings are held within whatever we put in the rules procedures, which is just like a notice. Um, as far as location, city hall unless directed otherwise. I mean, that's how all our normal meetings operate. Uh, notice of meetings, only staff can't
notice meetings unless they follow our procedure. And I mean, that all just makes sense to me. And I think it's very standard. Correct me if I'm wrong. In every city in the state that they have >> practices such practices are >> do you know any city that does what is
going on right now? >> I I think I've shared it that the a a persistent practice such as this without any sort of regulation. I'm unfamiliar with a jurisdiction in the state. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I don't
know all 411 cities, but I'm unfamiliar with one. But like the closest we have seen is what Orange County is doing. And even that has rules and procedures if I'm correct here. >> That's correct. >> So I don't want this to come across that I don't want you meeting with the
public. I absolutely want that. I meet with the public. I answer questions. Um when I first got elected, the mayor had an ETO veto and said, "Do not come to that. We can't do that." And I said, "Okay, yeah. I want you to be able to talk to your constituents." And that's how we all operate. That's how I've been trained to operate and I would like to
continue to do that. Um, if you want to make kind of the scenario where you can talk outside of our major meetings in more informal settings like Orange County, I don't have a problem with that. I just do want to make sure it's in a way where we're all on the same page if that makes
and that's where this came from. It had nothing to do with the golf meeting. >> Okay. So, I don't know if we have thoughts down there on what you guys would like to do, but I would like to implement some of these requirements. I'm uh definitely open to suggestions.
I'm I'm just not sure what uh what rules we can would would actually work and do what you're you're asking. Maybe the Orange County, is it Orange County or Orlando that has >> Orange County? >> Orange County. Maybe those are uh a good
starting point to look at. >> I think that's for more than one member though, but there's also like who can call a meeting and rules and regulations on that. So, we make sure, you know, if I say coffee with me, it's >> and I think to your point, I mean, I'm
not opposed to them, you know, having meetings with the public and getting out there. I guess it's like when you get the minutes, you don't know what was said. Here's Eid or O veto number 163 minutes. Discussion of pending rules and procedures discussion item at the work session in compliance with the sunshine
law. Well, we're doing that tonight and I have no idea what was what was discussed. You know, I could tell you but the point that yeah, [laughter] I'm happy to say it. Uh but you know so
but so I guess I would say that is something that you could bring up in a meeting or work session say hey you guys had this meeting and says this what did you guys talk about that's one way to find out so can we look at some options on what
we can incorporate it sounds like I have interest over here um I don't know how which direction. >> I'm definitely open to suggestions. I just don't know what >> what I would find >> would accomplish the what we're looking for.
>> I think the goal is transparency and if we >> do not attend, we can still watch or listen in the same fashion we have here. And I would also say, you know, all of our meetings here are recorded by a clerk or a member of staff, not council members themselves. So, if we can have
checks and balances to that where it's a member of our staff or of that nature, >> what you can suggest? >> I'm glad to to put together an initial draft for the council to be able to take a look at based on what I've heard in
this discussion here. >> Okay. And I know the mayor is not here and like I said, it's not my intention to discuss this at a meeting she was not able to attend. Um, so this is just a direction to look into it. So I'm sure we will be talking about this further,
but is there any further into it? Okay, I think we're good. >> Thank you. >> I don't have any other orders of business. Does anybody else have anything else? All right, it's 7:43 and we'll adjourn this meeting.
Such a sad little smack. I didn't log