Uh, did you hear from Kathleen? Did you use some pink? >> I You know what? Did you use a little? Not as much as you would have thought for me. >> Are you ready to start?
>> You ready? Let's call our meeting to order >> and please start the roll call. >> Yes. >> First tonight we have we're live and we're working. Let me just try to make sure tonight we have
Anna Helen Clark Xavier Mos um Helen Clark and absent is Amber White and Amber Waters. I apologize. And Kimberly Bo. All right. The next item on the agenda
is the election of chair and vice chair. So I just communicated before um the meeting that um um our chair resigned. She sent me a letter and signing. It was immediately
um immediate that day. So chair chair >> do I do I do this? How would we run this? Would you be the one?
>> I would not. You can run it the same way that you ran the elections last year for the interim chair and vice chair. >> Okay. All right. So, we need to elect a chair and vice chair. And so, let's ask for anyone who wants
to be considered for chair to selfnominate. And I will start off by saying that I'm going to be nominated. >> Good idea. >> I nominate Keith.
>> Are you second? Right. >> I am. >> Are there additional nominations? Hearing none, I'll entertain a motion that the nominations for chair be closed. >> Can I still move?
>> Okay, we have a make a motion to close the nominations for chair. >> Second it. >> We have a second. Um, all in favor of closing the nominations for chair, please say I. I. I. Both >> say no.
Okay, looks like I'm elected by acclamation. Thank you. Uh, now the position of vice chair, which we know is important because things can happen when we have a chair.
Let's open up the nominations for vice chair to nominate or second nominate. >> I'll nominate myself. >> Okay. Savior's >> I'll second that also. >> We already second it.
>> All right. For any other nominate >> are you self nominated? >> Oh no. >> Okay then. >> Are there additional nominations? Hearing none, I'll entertain a motion to close
the nominations. >> I second that. >> Well, you'll make the motion first. >> I make the motion to close the nomination for vice chair. >> Okay. And is there a second? >> A second. Okay.
>> Right. So, we've had an a motion to close the nominations for vice chair with Xavier. All in favor of that motion to close the nominations, please say I. >> I. >> Oppose, say no. Right. So, we have Xavier elected by
acclamation. >> Congratulations. >> Congratulations. >> All right. So, >> thank you, gentlemen. >> Yes. Yes. Thanks for stepping up. >> Continuing on, uh the approval of minutes
uh for January 21st. >> I make a motion to approve the minutes. >> Thank you. Is there a second? >> I'll second it. Okay, we have a motion and second to approve the minutes from January 21st.
Any corrections or discussion? Hearing none, let's vote to approve the minutes. All approve. All in favor, please say I. >> I. >> Oppos say no. >> The minutes are approved. It's now time for public comments. Oh, I
was supposed to also tell everybody to silence your cell phones. Um, any public comments? We will close public comment then and go on to staff report starting with the
mural at center lake park. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Congratulations. >> Thanks, chair. So, um, we took the mural, um, the result of the mural, uh, to council, to the CRA first for an
update and then to council this past Monday. And um uh I have I did a a memo describing the process but I also shared with them the discussion we had on AI and sharing with them the two
correspondents because I received two emails from contestants from participants from the call to arch artists um raising the concern on the use of AI >> and u everything we do is for the preers
we want to have a transparent right um process. So I shared with council I shared that we did not have a requirement um that it was not a criteria and we don't have a policy was not a criteria in the in the call to artist but those issues were raised and
this is new territory for all of us and with that um even in the CRA they already discussed that and some council members were not comfortable >> with the fact that um it was not clear um who used or you
And so in the um discussion at council because at the CRA it was just an upgrade to the board given the fact that they that they um funded the project but at city council
it wasn't they would take action to confirm and after the discussion and posted bureau there and now if you look with more detail on this and that you find you know um um some
elements that you say this is not complete or this is this looks like it may have been done artificially. I spoke to um the I called the three top artists because we had four designs but two artists were and two designs were from
the same artist and the top artist um told me that he uses and he provided a lot of documentation so that he uses a sketch he does a sketch you know manually but
then he posted in the in the AI to generate great ideas and then he said since there was no criteria this is the process he would do in other places and then he would come to see me and discuss the final design but council
was not comfortable I shared everything with them and so they did not take action on that call to artist and they provided the following action for so they sent it back they wanted um the board to readvertise
now with the criteria that no AI still will be used. So we are uh and I can show um the letter that I'm going to send to all the participants and uh and the new criteria new the new
uh yeah the new page for the for the >> so this is the letter to the artist um so I'm explaining so there were we had three directions one reopen the call for artist under the same theme so the Oido
100th anniversary in past, present, and future clear state in the call to artist that AI may not that shall not be used in design of the mural and allow multiple submissions because they they
knew that two arches proposed three and they said that's fine. They don't they did not have an issue with that. Um, so I'm going to send this letter uh to the the artists and they can resubmit their work if they feel the work uh um did not
use right they know that they worked on AI they have to now um sign that the submission um they are guaranteeing that that they are not using AI to generate the image on the final design
and Um and or they can propose new new designs and I am alerting also that theme to make sure that they meet the scene because we have a theme right and some of them I think they did not rank
well because they did not complete the scene. So just to let you know that this is the direction um with the discussion of council members because one council member called me and he said make sure that the um he was asking me questions
um make sure that public art board knows if they don't feel comfortable recommending something they can reject right said okay I think they know but I will let them know and I told them we were a little bit over the fence
>> because the fact that we didn't have a policy and not like guidance right and u who is interning with us he's um uh I asked him to research frameworks for AI for public art in other cities
>> and some cities have a percentage you can use 30% above whatever in which is qualified now the direction for from council was no AI Yeah, >> we don't have Yeah, but >> makes it clear. >> It's clear, right?
>> But um I know and maybe SA can speak on that, but some artists use some kind of enhancement tool in in with with proposals, right? to know how to
>> I mean some people do like a digital like collage or they'll do an analog collage and then like in Procreate like sketch on top of that but it's still >> like at the end of the day it's still analog. It's not
throwing it into the ether of words and an image being created from that. There is still I I'm curious about the other cities with a framework in place how they're defining the percentage of AI used and that I feel like it's interesting
>> after our meeting we had that discussion and I was already you know by that how we did at one point we'll have to come with the solution this is coming right it's new to everybody but it's already here >> so we'll have to face it >> so I researched and I found you know
there are different softwares that you can plug the image Oh, and it tells you >> it tells you the the thing and interestingly so I could I I rated all of them >> some um said 99%
chance of being AI. >> Um >> oh there was a supper you you could interior attorney you know reminded me and um Mr. those and those sortters are also not 100% reliable.
>> And he told me, you know, and he this is um information he gave me. If you put the declaration of independence in the AI, it's going to be it's going to say that it was generated by AI. So it's fake. So there so there are fake positives, right? False positives. So we
need to be careful to use that as a criterion. But it's a guidance. But the other thing that it gives you, it doesn't say, it says 99% but it gives you the percentages for different softwares.
>> So if you use anything that is computer-based, it will show as being AI but so I don't have the expertise to know what is images, what is this other software, what to be able to say that.
So like Adobe I mean >> I'm wondering if it would flag Photoshop or Illustrator or those as the >> that's what I'm wondering which have always been used I mean and in graphic >> but then it does get trickier now
because recently um Adobe the Adobe suite has integrated AI generative tools within it. There's a whole new but there's a whole new updated You're correct. There's a whole new updated version and um you're right because I
just got something like for an update and um yeah this is this is gonna >> we'll have to sorry if I may because we're actually dealing with something similar in the legal field currently
because and um in courts there report to sign a a document because no AI was used in the production of this document. And it reads confusingly because lots of our um research engines use AI in their search, right? And so if if you got a
case from one of the search engines, will that flag? >> But what it's really about is discouraging the use of AI in generating the document because a lot of a lot of other lawyers and prosay clients are not clients but pro litigants are using AI
to generate the document itself. And so the purpose of having an AI policy is actually less about creating the confusion on this end about determining whether AI was used in these softwares than it is about discouraging applicants from using generative AI to submit the
documents in the first place if that makes sense. I think there's also a distinction between generating right and enhancing right so use that to to correct to you don't want you don't
want the art to be created so one of the letters that I received said oh the if you choose the top artist you're choosing a robot >> you know so it's not entirely true there is an artist right there that did the
scan and she did and we don't know for instance if I do the research >> the letter from a councilman said that >> no from from one of the other applicants or from from the art because they were raising the concerns right um um so I understand
where they're coming from they're well some some artist did everything manually did everything you know some others use some help so where is the >> why >> now we won't be able to flag I think what the policy and the idea is that it
has to be original design and actually the agreement you have to represent that this design is original it's yours you have the copyright and we are you're selling the copyright to us because the city is buying the copyright >> right >> so you have that
>> so that suggested by the council >> no that's already there in the agreement okay >> that is already there but the thing is that if you generated It's not it's not yours to >> 30% 40% whatever >> and that's what you discovered in your research was the percentages when you
were researching and I apologize I forgot your name >> Montto >> Montto am I allowed to speak um >> sure >> okay um so according to my research other cities especially um well bigger
cities like New York and then also LA County have and uh really thinking about pushing out these um requirements for artists to agree in their disclosure agreements that like obviously like AI
can't really be stopped as a tool but now they're really trying to bankr sign these agreements that like AI can be used in trying to ideate or um like come up with ideas or like contextual research but AI I can't be actually
generating that >> and that's like the difference that's being asked on their disclosure agreements. Meanwhile, um, in closer cities like Winter Park, they just ban AI outright. Then they have, I think the Winter Park, uh, Sidewalk Art Festival
had these particular, um, AI guidelines in which, um, AI is like completely prohibited, um, and disqualifies artists from potentially participating in the future. Um, and I really like Xavier's um, previous suggestion of RFPs having
that kind of disclosure agreement for artists in the first place. And then based on those RFPs, we can issue RFP. Oh, sorry. RFPs and then based on those RFPs issue RFPs. >> Yeah, I I agree. And then um, FA FAPA I
know has like specifics because this has been um, did you look at FAPA? the Florida um >> Association of Public Arts. >> Not yet. >> Yeah. So, they're a great and and you all um are a member. Dr. Dr. Cruz is a
member. So, they have like specifics. I just saw something sent recently about murals. So uh and about art because that's a big issue right now to what degree and um it and then another
component is is that really fair to what has been previously done there's that what what past and I kind of look at it as this is an everchanging this is what happens in society I mean we change as we progress but um and in
interpretation well this artist really did it this way and and years ago, you know, this is but so there's a lot of interpretations going on right now and um I do one of my big questions if someone signs the document saying no a
AI has been used just like legally you said you all are addressing this. So what are the ramifications if they do? What if they're lying? What what what happens? >> How do we find out? >> Wow. >> Yeah. I mean, but seriously, but what we
spend the money, we agree this ours, and then we find out after we purchase a sculpture that the sculpture was, you know, complete. I I'm just asking I'm just asking what are the >> I think it's it would be a would be a legal matter, right? But um um for um
for the mural um we could so the murals that we received there was one that had the turtle with a bird head right >> and and that something and I'll be honest I did not look in the tail. >> Which one was that?
>> Um but we had one the one one that has a turtle. If you >> the one >> the turtle is a is a is a is a bird.
>> So that is a sign right that it was done by you know computer. So um that ranks high you know in the AI. >> Which one? >> This one right here. Really? Are you talking about this one right here? The
soft shell >> the soft shell turtle. >> Yeah. Why? Why was that? I mean, you put it through some kind of software and it said that >> so I I I put out to the fact right after that meeting that we had. I I put in one
of the software and that one >> but I again the disclaimer that I denote the software is completely reliable. So I think the direction from council we'll have to discuss the policy for the future. Right now the direction was
clear that to repost this um uh call to arches adding this um language that no AI um shall be used in the in the production of the generation of >> are we going to open it up for new
designs? >> Yes, we're going to open for >> Okay. So we're redoing the process. >> Okay. as the council's director. >> Yeah. >> I want to clarify if you can. So the people who already submitted these people, they can resubmit the exact same
thing >> if they choose. If they have not used a >> they will have to sign. >> Okay. They'll sign. >> Can they get our feedback before they resubmit? So they can make public records. Right. So they can we videape actually da sent to them the
link to the meeting that was >> oh they heard our public records we do here >> so we are not going to give them >> direct more direct >> yeah direct but they have access to if
if they are okay open to >> it's on the internet >> but you you had uh correspondents with some of them who already did admit that they had utilized AI, >> right? They did not they did not say
that it was generated. They said, "Well, no, the sketch is mine." And they show the process, >> right? Yeah. >> They the sketch is mine. So, the past, present, and future, right? How it's shown even with the lines. They show a sketch that has the lines >> and it and it's has the same, you know,
um general um idea. So the idea was um uh generated by the artist but he used AI to to enhance the design and then he would come to us that was you
know the hope to come to us and and and do something >> I don't know if it's possible to in the letter this might be for the future but to add a qualifier like if that's the route they're going to go that they're still building from the ground up but
it might be it might behoove us to like have a like if you are going to use AI as an enhancement of your original like scaffolding let's call it that like we need like documentation of that workflow
process like if if they're not if they're going to completely sketch it manually then it's like okay like we or paint whatever it is but um >> I think right now the direction is clear No AI but for the future. >> Yeah. Yeah. Just
>> especially since council came back to us and council said no AI. >> So they're the final word. >> Yeah. >> I mean so >> at this point >> Yeah. So we >> bring a policy if we're going to be polic to to authorize this again.
came from. >> Can you explain what the RPQ or what what was it? >> Oh, RFQ versus RFP. >> RFQ. Can you explain what that is again? >> So, basically it's like you have rounds of submissions. So, an RFQ request for
qualifications is you you're not creating bespoke work for that call. So, if we did an RFQ for instance with this mural at Center Lake, it would just be previous like examples of the artist work that they'd be submitting. >> Oh, they don't even have to submit the design. No,
>> no, it's just previous like your portfolio of previous work. We would look through those ones and then we would depending on what our criteria are from the rubric, we would say it seems like these four individuals,
we would like to then move to the request for proposals where it would be a a small stipend of like $100 to create a bespoke design in your style according to the theme of the um okay >> like paid for for creating a design. So
yeah, you get some compensation. It's smaller. >> It's more of a selection. We get to really choose what style we want >> of an artist >> and then that we might choose three. I'm
out of I'm just making this out of 20. And we're like the this is really the kind of art that we're looking for for this particular um project and and that's how we we do it. And it's nice for the artists as well because you're
not ending up with a stockpile of I poured 20 hours into this and then there's no >> you know gain back there >> which we can tell which artist did. >> Yeah. >> And the submitt I think it's quite um the submittals which is obvious and from
what you have mentioned I can tell which artist had an issue >> too who might have had an issue. I think it's kind of obvious my opinion but obviously not. So do you have the verbage to use? >> So I have um and I have put the criteria
back. No the sc right. So if you go back to that folder um we have the second round of call. Yeah.
So this is what we approved before. Um so it has the project budget. If you go you know down the project criteria no use of AI to generate or enhance the submitted design and then we'll have some language.
>> I think I should spell it out >> in in in so this is >> not just AI but >> what is that? Oh, artificial intelligence competence. You meant the the word. Okay, we can do that.
>> And um uh and then I if you go I the criteria that we use um I was going to ask if you want to have that um I haven't finished apparently because
it's not you know I haven't finished but it's the this is the table. If we can move on a little bit. So yeah, this is the table that we created for the criteria if you want to advertise that as well. This is this is where you're going to be evaluated, right? Because we
did not do that in the past. And if that's the case, I wanted to clean up a little bit because I think we have um community connection in both. >> We do >> sections there. >> Yeah. So um and we talk about quality of
uh past work but we don't talk about quality of the proposed work in a way. So um I wanted to see if you would like to clear a little bit that to maybe because I think we have in the first one
artistic vision and community connection we have I don't know if we may split that one but demonstrates a meaningful understanding of the G given scene I think that was missed by a lot of people right
the theme you know that we have a theme that we wanted to portray I mean there is flexibility on that but you know >> it was obvious on some but not >> right that not with others so I don't know if we should make it more clear that this is this you're going to be
judged by you know if you matched the theme or not and then clear that we had um connection to it's just a a question if you'd like to re revisit
What do you think about putting the criteria as part of the call? >> Seems seems fair enough. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It might it might make them more attentive to make sure they hit everything. >> It will.
>> And and also it lets them know that we're we take this seriously. I mean like there is a process that we're going by and judging them like this is what it is. Plain and simple. >> Yeah. The crazier they call and the rubber door align the better.
>> For the part where you say the character of the new downtown, should we specifically identify what area we're talking about? I know it seems like very obvious of like, oh, it's kind of like the park that area, but we are also like revitalizing the
old downtown and like that's getting some juing up. So I don't know if we need to like even spell out like this is >> which one is that >> the very yeah >> artwork portrays values local identity
and supports the character of the new downtown landscape and vibrancy. >> So maybe saying supports the character of center lake park if that's where it's going to be just so there's a clearer >> I think the more explicit the better. Absolutely.
>> So include um Central Lake Park, right? >> So that's what it's called. It's not the VA arts and entertainment district. >> That's what's for the local. >> I know, but it's the same area. >> It's adjacent to the district
adjacent. Okay. Do we want to do any other tweets to this? >> Well, I I was listening to um the previous comment about the artistic experience and quality of past work, but there's not much about the quality of
the present work. So if we either make another category or somehow with the suitability for public space add something like something that includes the quality of the work >> I first >> or put it in there but make it really
clear that >> doesn't the first one really say that which is vision >> art artwork portrays the cultural values local identity and supports the character >> it's the largest cate category >> demonstrates a meaningful understanding.
>> I know it doesn't talk about the quality of the art itself, right? It's just more the connection with the video. And uh >> so we could put it in either spot, but put it under the evaluation considerations. Put another sentence that addresses the overall quality of
the work just in a general >> quality. There's past work quality of past work and skills. Oh, that's past work. >> Yeah. >> So, we we did not really redeem past work, right? Only one >> person. Yeah. >> And they should have gotten deemed for
that. I mean, I I >> I did. >> I did because that's everybody should have a portfol not I know not everybody has a portfolio, but if you have it, you should be showing it. Period. >> That would be a moot point though if we went with the other. We're not for this
though. Obviously, we can't. But if we went with your >> RFQ thing, >> I think the quality past work would be immaterial at this point. >> So, let's put another sentence >> demonstrates quality of work and demonstrates
quality of work and meaningful understanding of the thing. >> Say that again. demonstrates quality of work is do we have to say it more explicit >> demonstrates
um >> and quality you're saying that last sentence demonstrates a meaningful understanding of the given >> artistic vision and um and quality of
>> how about we make it like this first one clarity of community connection and then make it artistic experience and vision. And under artistic experience and vision, you could have a sentence about
the quality of work, prior work shown, >> but we already do that down here. >> Yeah, we already had quality. Well, we were we were saying before I thought one of the first things St. said that it seemed like redundant to have the connection there and
>> that's what I was >> actually I think we should have only one player. >> Yeah. >> I would artistic >> and vision artistic quality vision and community connection as the criteria. >> I think these are two criterias for me.
>> One is the how good the design is. the second the connection with these are important >> in the seam. >> I agree. >> Yeah. And we've got a connection to a veto down here. So you could take it out there. >> What about moving the community
connection to the second >> uh box, >> combining it with suitability for public space and letting the top one be just artistic vision. >> Yeah, I think that's the way to do it and just keep it that way. I know they a veto connection, but it's still in the
second. It's in the top two because I think that's a lot completely here. >> I would say completely the top the bottom one, >> right? We have 10 points more, right?
>> So, we could give artistic um vision. >> The one below >> this one. >> Yeah. Removing the whole thing. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, we're gonna put one is going to be
artistic vision and quality of the design and you can help me with you know >> that would be connection to reveal in the scene because I think it would >> it's the theme. The theme is the past, present and future
>> and uh and and then suitability for public space can be less range >> right so you could give um 40 um uh or 30 and 20 if we move the DN up
and um you have this addition. >> I do. So when we went back to adding quality of connect quality of connection, >> we need to be careful because one of these goes to the individual and
remember what we were talking about. It goes to the connection the person has to OTO to address whether this is a local artist who may or may not live here as opposed to the piece itself. >> That's why I would say if you're going to combine those, you need to be
careful. That's true because one goes to the individual, one goes to the work itself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which I do really think you need to keep. >> Yeah. I at this point I would suggest having two separate boxes and I know
that's a little messier but you want to write the work. It's we're doing grant applications. >> It's not it makes it less messy. >> Okay. I think the more specific the more helpful it is for us in judging. That's my opinion. >> So, okay. So, the first one narrative
anymore basically. >> We'll come back to that. >> So, artistic vision and um >> and um quality of work. How how do you would you >> Yeah. Artistic vision and quality of
work. Mhm. >> Artistic vision of work and quality of work and then the the artwork portrays will be the sculptural
values. So that should be the technical >> that will be moved. Yeah. >> The first sentence will be to another box. >> This one we're taking out. We have that we we are copying right now just to make sure that we don't lose we put another
block and we put another Yeah. Okay. >> So the first sentence we moved down >> to values until Oh no it's the whole sentence until >> Yeah. >> You could um
>> ask for >> artistic vision and the quality of the piece itself. community connection and understanding. >> That's what we're calling this one
>> and um community connection and seeing um >> where is that demonstrate the meaning? >> Yeah, that's Oh, so that in the first or the second?
The theme is well the theme is participation and quality of right should be there. So we have to say something about the quality of work in the first by a meaningful understanding >> demonstrates a meaningful understanding of the given theme and
uh >> I think we can copy art artist clearly states the vision and creates creative intent for the work right >> for the work the first the first thing >> can we say something like the work is aesthetically pleasing
>> All right. So the bottom >> shows. >> So we're talking when we say clearly states we're talking about the written piece. that they're using to express or we talking about the piece. This is what we
>> Yeah, we're top >> the top box. >> The artist clearly states the vision and creative intent for the work >> clearly demonstrates instead of states maybe, right? >> I think we could say what the words
>> like artist clearly like >> visualizes an understanding of the given theme >> because I think that like when we keep using demonstrates like then it it goes back to this what Dr. Ber was referencing with the um the like do you
have an actual connection lived in connection with Oto versus like I live in Aspen Colorado but I can understand based on the research I've done of the town like what the visual identity of this new area is and do that. So, so
we're taking out the word states because that's means words, right? And say visualize. >> The artist clearly visualizes the vision. >> Visualiz >> portrays a meaningful understanding of the given theme.
>> Voila. Yay. >> Portrays a meaningful Is there something just the quality of >> I wouldn't say understanding I would say meaningful vision >> just meaningful vision what we're seeing >> I think that's too
>> take out creative intent for the worship >> meaningful vision of the theme >> correct >> there you go >> of the given yeah >> portray Or is that meaningful vision? >> Oh, but I already Okay. Didn't I remove that?
>> Yeah. >> And then we moved the other one. I thought >> I can remove this one here. >> I would say make quality of work a separate box because it's it's weird to have the
vision and their prior work in >> Well, it's not prior work, >> isn't there? the the given work that they've just submitted. >> Ah, okay. >> How about the quality of the submission? >> Isn't that what we want to get from the top box? >> Artistic vision and quality of
submission. >> Yeah. of of design submitted or >> just trying to figure out ways that the person will be the application. It's not the quality of the application, right? submission for me.
>> The design Imagine sitting without us talking to them. >> There you go. I have to do that again. I thought it was since you are we are submitting
>> communities connect artwork portray the cultural guidance local I think that's good right >> yes >> and then I would only add um right >> we can pick out the bottom one so because >> we're not going to actually give them
points for the narration What's your thought? You want to have it carried in carried in through in the piece and and not in the words. >> Well, >> I mean the the words are always important. I can't remember. >> The words are important. I think >> we've asked them to do that. If we've
asked them to do it, I think we have to give them. >> So instead of giving points of the submission, let's give points to the narrative. >> Yeah. If we're accepting submissions that aren't complete, which we did, >> we did not,
right? So, why have it in there? So, just give that the 10 points. >> I would say, yeah, I would I would admit the um yeah, just not accept completed submissions this >> go around. And >> well, we we they were not incomplete.
Some of them listed, right? They did not show the they said we worked here in this restaurant the mural >> but also timelines which some of them were explicit and some of them were >> when you tell me what to do I'll do it. >> Right. Yeah. Oh, so I think we are agreeing to remove
the box about completion completeness >> this one >> or give it >> five points if we want to have those at all. >> The first the first one >> you want to or um
>> um submission complete. >> Yeah, we'll have to change the title to here. >> Yeah. any here. But so you want to have that and put narrative here or >> yeah the narrative fit there
>> or quality of the submission and then stress more the narrative >> I agree the quality of sub submission should be separate so that they understand the that we really look at the submission like it's following >> you that's my
>> you talking about the bottom box No, >> no. I think it needs to be or you you're meaning that as a bottom box. >> So this one is about completion, right? >> Yeah. But now if we change >> we can add something about the narrow
attitude there put back in the bottom >> if we want to add that >> we want to require >> or add the narrative to the submission quality. One of the things we're asking
them to submit is an explanation of what they're >> but let me tell you because the vision is already in in the in the design itself. I think what we need to say is that the narrative that supports the design right because the narrative is al can be beautiful but nothing to do with
the >> Yes. So exactly if the narrative supports right the quality of the nar if you want to raise that >> why are we having them do the narrative >> is important
>> so with the so I I'll answer that and then I would say with the second box the community connection one that can be like community connection narrative because if in the prior one we're giving 40 points to the artistic vision we're
already looking for it to align visually with what's happening thematically. Then the community connection if that's going to be the second most amount of points they need to be able whether they are a local resident or applying from out of state internationally
um verbalize like why like does this like it can be the most beautiful thing but if you can't like tell me why that one gives me pause to think did you do this and then um two like if they're going to be involved in
like you know the public arts of like there's going to be at least one time where they're going to be asked to talk about their work and like why it's meaningful to them. So I would say I would give make that second box just community connection narrative. So that way and if you give that 30 points and
they're seeing that they're like >> community connection narrative or narrative community connection and narrative >> of theme and narrative. Well, in narrative, >> right? Community connection and narrative.
>> I wish we had a pointer. >> I know. I actually like this sentence. >> Um, I just >> Oh, that's a touch screen. >> Is it? >> Yeah. >> Sorry, it's >> You could just say written community connection. I'd be I'd be okay with
folding the narrative into that second box. But I I don't think it should be only that. And I think if it's only the narrative, if it's only the narrative, the words, 30 points is too much. >> I agree.
>> Well, the point system is already screwed. We have to that once we move that >> actually zero points of that, right? >> Yeah. The community connection. Well, I think you have to portray, right, the values and the narrative to
support it. >> Or we just take what's highlighted in the second column, add that to the first column if that's what we're looking for visually and thematically, and that can just become the thing that's a variable from call to call. Just for this
particular theme, you have everything that's highlighted in that first box after the first sentence. I did not. I'm sorry. I did not. >> So like I'm gonna get >> Yeah. So basically all this putting that so that the artistic vision where we
have the most points it like artist clearly portrays a meaningful vision of the given theme. This is the given vision like these things. >> So that all moves up here and then you have less points to whatever we decide to call this like narrative piece.
artist has provided a comprehensive >> explanation there. >> Oh yeah. >> Why would that be in suitability of artistic vision? I mean the narrative why would it be in the the
first part is talking about the artwork. the second part B and down. You know, it would make it a lot easier if we had A and then each of the boxes under A 1, two, and three. B and each of the boxes one, two, and three. So we could identify these as we're talking, not just saying Bob
because that's driving me nuts. There you go. >> Whoever did this draft, Helen, was slacking. >> No, >> you did a lot of work on this. Oh, this is the world of rubrics.
Okay, now >> well I think we shouldn't get rid of the bottom box. I mean, or just take out my >> I like the bottom box. >> And it does say state. We could say >> it does say states and it says the word
narrative, but in in narrative form, we can say Yeah, >> I think the confusion in the bottom box, are you talking about the artwork, the artist, or both at the same time?
>> That's why I was >> How about vision and connection to Oido explain? >> But again, the artist got both. >> You have to be specific. Um, talk about
she's right. You have to be >> you gotta be specific >> because like the first box like I'm as an artist I'm reading the first like box one that whole row I'm reading that purely from the visual standpoint and
then box two it's like if we move what's currently highlighted in the evaluation portion of two up to one then that means when we evaluate these things we are visually looking for the artwork portraying cultural values, local identity, all
that. Then when we get to Fox 2 amended perhaps and it's like community connection, narrative, then we're looking at just the written explanation which could be taken from what's struck out at the very
bottom and moved up there. So in in my humble opinion I I think it's in my mind it's easier to to separate out the quality of the piece itself and the connection to a reader.
So that if you have one element of the evaluation that's purely done on evaluation of this as a piece of >> which is sort of what >> and then you look at the connection to a But that's why I think it should be
separated between that >> in terms just in terms of the evaluation process >> which is sort of what happened with this one. We liked the quality of the work if you can but there was no reference to a veto per se.
>> Right. So so you could score it for high quality by itself but low in the connection. >> Yeah. and and that's and that's due just to the visual visual piece and then since we are requiring a narrative it makes
sense to have some >> uh points for the narrative part what if we say artwork instead of portrays artwork and narrative reflects of people's cultural values identity and
>> well because if I'm understanding what Keith was just saying those two were strictly visual and then there's a a separate box that would just pertain to the the written piece. >> Yes. So the the unnumbered one at the bottom with just the narrative.
>> So we could keep it. >> Oh, so you don't want narrative here. You want visuals here. And um um >> so >> because we we want we want the Obito connection to show in the piece. >> Yeah.
>> Right. No matter how good somebody writes about it, >> right? It's in >> if it doesn't show up in the piece, then that's not good for us. >> Yeah. Right. >> I think we keep the bottom up. and that it for council purposes that's really
important to um city council um and that's something that they've always brought up with um any type of artwork is the connection to is this an ovito artist. >> Yeah. >> Are we I mean this is that that seems to be definitely a thing that they're very
focused on >> and that's where the narrative piece so I I didn't forget your question that you asked earlier. So the written piece comes in clutch. So, like the first mural I proposed, the Round Lake one, um I didn't know it at the time because I just was going purely off of the
guidelines that had um been posted and I don't think at the time there was a requirement for like a written piece, but I was like, well, if they said the black history of Ovito, I'm just going to go provide like a slight essay on and
and then they were like, oh, that was like a very deciding factor. I think it makes difference. We learn what is what is >> in the going on in the mind. >> Don't we have to have the AI in here? >> I think narrative is here, right? The
narrative is here. >> So, but the no AI I think >> that's just part of the rules. >> No, that is part of the >> Yeah. So box two I think is actually pretty good in terms of the connection
part and we could flush out box one a little bit more with the aesthetics of it. Um, and I I'm I'm thinking that we could, you know,
>> and is that engaged? >> We need to talk about artistic vision and quality of proposed design. We need to state something relating to the quality. >> Um, is it good? demonstrates artistic skills.
>> No, no. >> Yeah. Because like are we we're we're talking about the artist's actual ability to execute >> this design in this as well. >> No, >> I think it's just the quantity of the design.
>> I would pick out aesthetically and just say engaging >> in the right. So we we can perhaps come back to that. But um what about the suitability for public space? Number three,
>> visually engaging. >> That can >> Okay, we've already got engaging there. >> If we're going to have that, I I would recommend we move it we lower the points to like 10. Um we already talked about um removing
the the can >> the completeness. Uh, so that's B1. Are we still wanting to do that? >> B1, I think, by the way, but back to B1 and the earlier comment. I think at the end we need to say the last sentence of
B1, we should say something about the AI again. >> No, Ay is a disqualifier, right? I mean, you have to >> But is it a disqualifier if they don't have um this their CD or their biography or their artist statement? Is it just
the only >> it's not we can rate you can remove points but AI is dealer >> yeah we will have that you know >> AI the so we were saying that we would rate one if it was missing
>> right but we will not if it's >> okay then we probably need to leave it in if we're going because that would be the only way to reflect it >> I'd recommend just changing it to submission completeness rather than quality quality since we already have quality in box one that might >> and we're not evaluating the quality so
much. >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you have it or zero or one >> and B2? >> This is what I was getting confused with earlier. This is the technical >> quality of password.
Are we are are you all rate grading those the quality of password? >> We really didn't have a >> I don't I don't know how much we I don't think we grade the quality of pastwork because it's already been it in in association to what is being submitted.
I think we're looking, aren't we looking at that as seeing like have they done this before? You know, what is >> that's a requirement. >> What is their history been? I mean, we're we're grading what they're submitting, not what they've submitted
in the pa past for other projects, >> right? >> I mean, that's not what the point is. >> So, if we're not going to grade on that, then we should remove >> legit, but we want to see it, >> right? But that's what I'm just saying. We're we're seeing what they're offering that they're fulfilling. They're
providing a background of of information. I mean a background. >> As I recall, that one is not so much what they are capable of technically, but I think you all were concerned about whether they had completed a similar
type, >> right? And there was one and they even admitted it has never done one before and this was their first time submitting for a mural. um one of the submissions and um which you know we said we were open
to that you know it doesn't it did not you know it it okay if someone does not have >> experience and quality of work >> a lot of them too didn't um a lot of them were more um verbal in their
experience not all of them provided previous images so maybe we just make it artistic experience and we're just like evaluating for the sake of like do we feel like based on where what they're
gonna be they have done or even this and this is where having that other narrative piece would come in >> quality of password >> yeah I think yeah >> yeah I I I agree >> and and just say like if they're able to
articulate like these are the artistic roles I have had in the past and projects I have completed like >> you want to say images were discussion of passport
>> or yeah >> well we did want to give images though don't we >> we did this last time and they can remove points right >> yeah it lower I think it's simpler it's better what
happen totally agree I think more direct and simple it is the better submissions you get because um I think people will be will have a better understanding I that's >> so the clarity of this last one um be what would be three are we is that xed
out that's gone it was moved Well, all we did was add right here Oto connection narrative. >> So if we >> we can read there, right? >> So So we're combining the bottom box with B1. >> B1. Yeah.
>> Okay. So then with a point scale, we have >> we can add some points. >> One, two, three. >> I would advise against that. >> You're again, you're judging the submission in box one. The purpose of B3 was does this artist have the ability to
demonstrate a connection themselves to OA? >> And but is that important if the vision? >> I I think it is because you're going to get that out of state artist and if you end up choose if if the board does choose it, you need to be able to justify because that that was the whole
situation that we had in Sanford with the >> spent Yeah. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on art that were not local artists. >> Beautiful pieces, but the commission got >> Yes. >> because they could not answer the
question. >> Why was this artist chosen? >> So part of our mission is to support local art to the degree we can. >> Is that our purpose? I I personally think it is.
>> No, it's not limited to Florida, is it? >> No, but >> but again, it really comes back down to we've submit this. >> We have a big discussion with this too. >> Yeah. >> And the council members are again I'm going to say it's all about local
artists here. >> Yes. I'm just asking the question. I'm just >> and move to Denver. >> No, I think that might be a possible consideration. But again, like the whole local theme is very big with them.
>> Yeah, >> very very big. They just keep reiterating that every time we do some type of council presentation. >> I know. But I want to say the other side of that. I'm I'm a believer that art has no boundaries. >> I do too. But >> we just do and we were so proud that
Jolie was ano, you know, born, you know, citizen that >> conquered the world, >> right? it it has both sides right I mean so but anyway that's my personal view I understand that council has a different perspective and we are not we are
certainly you know >> well that's what I'm asking do they have a a concrete not what you know you surmise or we surmise have they made a statement that they want this to be >> you know ovito artist or Florida artist >> um >> have they ever said that
>> I I think we can go to the code of ordinances I I think the the mission is one of the one of the goals is to support local artist. >> Sure. Correct. >> Right. But it does not mean that you cannot support other artist. I don't know if it's exclusive to
>> if they're going to want that. We should know. >> Yeah. >> Uh is this something that we can work? We've got >> we've got 100 points there. >> Dr. is raising that if the connection to a bit is important then we have to
>> I think we need to >> if it's >> I think B3 is I don't mean to cut off Dr. Grant um B3 is just very simple. Can the artist demonstrate a way that there
is a personal connection to OA? >> Maybe that's because they live here currently. Maybe that's because they lived here at some point. Maybe they work here. Maybe there are people that maybe their family lived here 100 years ago for six generations before their
parents left to go to California. >> I agree. Because that way if you have that in there some if if an artist is chosen and someone says why was this this this artist lives in Colorado why was this artist chosen you then have the ability to give defense preemptive
defense to say this is why this person has its connection >> let's clarify >> so we put that back and we say >> I mean I think >> what Dr. Bower said was great artists can demonstrate a personal connection to the community of Computer connection
narrative you understand it not being met that >> no one is for the piece one is for the artist >> no the submission >> but I don't think that explains efficiency whether or not it was submitted and that's that's what I think
the submission completeness is it's just making sure it's a check >> for this >> yeah I think I think Dr. is correct with the B3 that one the artist is is demonstrating it. Um B1
it's it's a checkbox. Did you submit everything that's required? >> Okay, I think that makes sense. And then we can restate this and say a per connection a personal connection in the narrative.
Right? I might put >> artist connection to a reader >> individual artist >> individual artist >> so they understand it's different from the pieces >> or the artist's connection to
>> personal you could say >> I think personal works >> artist clearly states his or her vision and create wait for the >> artist clearly states their personal connection to >> yeah we've already got stuff about vision No, we'll note on that
and narrative >> in written form >> and written narrative or >> right >> artist clearly states his or her not the >> it was because she starts to type there >> or there's no way to say there. I will
say I'm going to concede to that but >> no no I'm I'm glad with what I learned. >> There you go. >> And 10 points. >> Yes. >> Well, let's see the points now. So the artistic vision and >> we have to take 10 points away from >> well yeah we have let's just look at the
points al together. So what's the most important thing? >> Number one I guess >> number one and two. >> So they could both be 33. Are they equally important?
>> Yes. Really? >> Some could be also um five, right? >> Absolutely. >> This could be five >> for sure. That could be five >> and then that could be past four could be five and then three
could be 10. >> Are you finding that? >> Since that's important to the board. Well, we don't know that. >> Or do you want speculation? >> We know from what they say. They've not sent that.
>> Okay. >> We have manipulated this. Um, since we've changed it so much, we should go to approve it. >> I'm sorry to do this to you. I just want a clarification of the artist clearly
portrays a meaningful v vision of the given theme and is aesthetically engaging. Period. >> So that that is enough for quality that you feel that that's good enough. I just
want to make sure >> okay I'm just I just want clarification. So we need to put a period there and then okay >> to me artistic vision and quality proposed design that >> that really captures it >> right >> that's that's in the box next to it the
criteria box >> to the left artistic vision and quality of proposed design >> so okay I just wanted I just wanted to make sure >> I'll entertain a motion to approve this
>> I move that we approve the revised We are okay. >> Criteria evaluation and call. >> Yes. Yes. >> Uh is there a second? >> Second. >> All right. We have a motion and second. Uh any further discussion? >> And we can let Teresa
do any little small cleanup. >> Yes. >> Um all in favor please say I. >> I. Say no. >> Passes. And uh I really need to go as well. Um Mr. Vice Chair, can you take over at
this point? >> We don't have a >> We can That was a good discussion. We can bring the sculpture next >> next month. >> And one of the things we wanted to do is kind of tweak the evaluation for the
sculpture. So all of this can help that So I'm going to send my email again the proposal you know that Helen has sent us and then we can all work on the next meeting.
>> All right then we are adjourned >> just we're going to post it on hope Monday and we'll end on the second March 31st. We're going to have five weeks >> and we end
some of the stuff's fried I mean but my chameleas can go um um 15 which is really great Because we have blooming, we have, you know, some food