Good evening everybody. Welcome to the city of Palaca special call meeting on October 15, 2025. It's 6 pm. I'm calling the meeting to order. We'll start with the invocation led by Pastor Malbury and the pledge of allegiance led by
Commissioner Boring. Father, again we thank you for this day and we thank you for how good you've been. You brought us together once again for the some business here to tonight and we ask for your divine presence to be with us. God, give us the wisdom that
is necessary to go forward and do what is right. We pray God that your will be done, your kingdom come, your glory be revealed. bless this thy people in Jesus name. Amen. >> Amen. >> Please join me in the pledge. Pledge
allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. >> Roll call, please. Madame clerk.
Present. >> Commissioner Campbell >> present. >> Commissioner Jones >> present. >> Commissioner Borum >> present. >> Present. Thank you. We have Torum.
I do have a public comment as a general public comment um from Miss Kitchens. Please come up. Miss Kitchens. >> Thank you. Allelu Kitchens of Florida. I just wanted to uh let you all know that the red light on Reed and Second Street, there's something seriously wrong with
it. When you're trying to cross Reed Street on Second Street, it will turn red briefly. The the signal comes on and says it's going to turn green and then it stops the traffic on Reed Street, but it doesn't turn green and then it holds for another 10 minutes or so. So, there's something wrong uh with the the
red light on Reed and uh which is State Road 100, US 17, and State Road 20 at Reed and Second Street. So, if somebody could get the uh department of FDOT to fix regulate it, it would be wonderful. It's almost caused some wrecks. Thank you. >> Also, also on Third Street as well.
>> Yeah, Third Street's no prize. Fourth is pretty good. >> Thank you. Anybody else here for public comment on general items not specifically listed on the agenda? Saying no, we'll close public comment. On to regular business, city manager
investigation. We all received a copy of the investigation. Uh would we like to proceed in terms of this discussion about the investigation? We also have to Miss West give Miss
Cotti the opportunity. >> That's correct. Miss Cardi is entitled to a name clearing hearing um in which she is uh allowed to rebut any accusations and allegations that have been uh placed
against her and so she does have that opportunity in a public forum to do so. >> Miss Cotti, would you like to to do so? >> Yes. >> Yeah. I was just going to say before do we hear the
from her first or the investigate the conclusion of the investigation or and this is just a question I don't know how this typically proceeds well >> nothing typical about this one thing um the investigator is not here to testify
as to the findings of his report so I believe all of you have received a copy of the report and you proceed as you deemed fit, but you do have to give Miss Cardi an opportunity to rebut the allegations. >> And that is what I was going to do because I knew the gentleman could not be here on such short notice. We had
received that correspondence. >> Um, and we did all receive it and I wasn't going to read it page by page. So, Miss Cotti, your opportunity. Uh first of all, good evening to everyone and you know, thank you for the
opportunity to respond to the obligations. Um I I kind of I received the report today and so I tried to address it and just
respond to the best that I could. Um okay. So I guess I'll just start the way how it's written here. But um the first thing uh there was an allegation um about um my I approved of of another
manager's decision to terminate an employee and uh that was because that person was on probationary and um I think out of maybe 45 days or
so that person had not uh been able to come to work at least half of that time. Also, the person was uh not well. Um and I think she even fell down the stairs and um so we tried to prevent that from
happening again and we moved that person uh downstairs to make it more safe. So I think I'm pretty sure that that's what that person was talking about that allegation. However, uh it is not my decision. It was the manager's decision.
I did agree with it. Um >> do you want to actually start on number one and go in order? Which she was on? That was number seven. >> Oh, so I was on page six. >> Yeah. >> So, should I start with page seven? >> Okay, I'll start >> with the first the first allegation.
Might be easier to start to do it in order. So you use >> the page seven number one. Okay. Initiating and prolonging discussion about race, ethnicity, and national origin. Is that it? >> No. Number one is one employee
complained that Miss Cotti lied to her, constantly changed her mind, giving conflicting work instructions, recommended the employee without reason. >> I got it. Page five. I found it. >> Before we proceed, mayor, may I make the recommendation that you facilitate the
meeting as well as kind of help us so that Miss Cardi knows exactly what it is that she needs to be um responding. >> Okay, I will read the allegations in order and then you can give a response to each one after I read it. So that was the first one and I had almost finished.
Um so I'll start over again just for clarification. One employee complained that Miss Cotty lied to her, constantly changed her mind, giving conflicting work instructions, reprimanded the employee without reason, undermined her, and and created a toxic work
environment. >> Okay, thank you. So, my response is not true. I have no knowledge of lying to any employee or anyone. Um, I don't constantly change my mind. I do
change my mind when I am given new information and more relevant information. Um reprimanding an employee, the only person that I have ever um I've had one person on performance
improvement plan and that person did successfully complete that. Another employee was placed or requested to be placed on a performance improvement plan by the prior finance director and I did
complete that. So that's my response. >> Okay. Um the second allegation is another employee reported that Ms. Kati repeatedly blurred the lines between city business and personal matters, tried to micromanage anything she could she could, disrespected employees,
refused to value their time, badmouth employees, created toxic work environment, belittle people, disclose sensitive or confidential information to employees. >> My response is not true. Um there were
as as it relates to blurring the lines between business and personal um there were three instances that I remember of receiving assistance from city workers. Um mainly it was offered with public
works. My car was not working. U my door knob three door knobs they came in. I was not home at the time, so I assume they came on their off time. Um, let me see. I don't know anyone that I
disrespected or belittled, and I don't know of any sensitive or confidential information that I may have disclosed. The next allegation, specific meeting an employee had in Miss Cotti, which
covered numerous work topics, including compensation. According to the employee, Miss Cotti told her that her eyebrow treatment brings out her Indian features. Miss Cotti then repeatedly and openly doubted what the employee had to say about her own racial and ethnic and
ethnic background and national origin. >> This conversation was initiated by the employee. We were discussing her vacation plans and I noticed her eyes and was like, "Oh, wow. That's that looked nice." And she said, "Yeah, I paid enough." like how do you pay for
eyebrows? She explained about a treatment and uh then she talked about that um she she's that her father is black and her mother's Puerto Rican and that she's a black woman, which I was like, "Oh, okay. Didn't know that." But
then I said, "Well, my granddaughter is also Puerto Rican." I pointed to my pictures of my family. My daughter, my granddaughter is Puerto Rican as well, and I showed her the picture. She didn't seem to be offended. Uh we kept working.
Uh this was a conversation that we had before we started um getting deep into the substance of our work. So she didn't seem I didn't know she was offended. She never said it or looked like it. The fourth allegation initiating and pro
initiating and prolonging discussion about race, ethnicity, and national origin. She was proud of her heritage. In response, Miss Cotti said, "Don't get loud with me. The employee was offended." She said, "So, Miss Cotti ignored her." >> Again, as I mentioned in number three,
the same employee initiated the conversation. I simply responded. I don't know what she mean when it says, "Don't get loud with me. I don't know what that means." Uh, she didn't seem to be upset. She wasn't angry, nothing. Uh,
I'm not discriminatory in any way. We were just talking, conversating as women talk and nothing else. Uh I don't remember her even being loud or unusual. We just started working.
>> Um the fifth item, viewing employees differently based on their age favors older employees over younger employees. >> My response is that I'm not certain how this assertion was made. uh our workforce is mixed and I work
with both older and younger uh individuals. I would have no reason uh to make a statement regarding age. >> The next item is viewing job applicants differently based on protected categories.
Uh I do work with human resource and uh there are times when I want to make sure that we remember that uh we are building a diverse population, work population and the desire of the city to hire local
residents. Uh also I want to make sure that um I that we remember that. So I do remember a conversation of regarding that. We do have one department that doesn't have a lot of diversity. So, we
were looking at that department. >> The seventh item, disfavoring a sickly employee, and you responded this one already, but I will read it for the sake of the public. Miss Cotti approved of another manager's decision to terminate an employee. The other manager's reasons
are unknown, but Miss Cotti told me the employee was outlawed for health medical reasons. >> Right. And that's the employee that had problems. Um she's she has some kind of problem with her foot but more importantly it was not safe for her to be upstairs and I did make sure that we
moved her uh HR also was aware that she had fallen and um we did not want that to happen again. >> The eighth item disregarding boundaries between city business and personal matters. An employee to go to my house and tell me what to do about the grass.
>> Yes, there was uh an employee that was outside. This is true. Uh there was an employee outside and u think he was doing the grass and I told him how my grass was dying and I said whenever you get a moment and he talked about how his grass was thriving. I said okay well
look at my grass you'll see and let me know what you think. So I'm not sure when he went. U maybe a week or so later he mentioned you know uh do not replace all the grass but I don't know when he actually went to see it.
an employee tightened three door knobs at your home and assisted with your daughter's vehicle with the dead battery. >> So, this is true. Um, again, I I probably the best I can my memor is that um public works said they
would help me as they normally do if that cuz I had a problem uh even with the city own vehicle. It wasn't starting right. Matter of fact, I was driving and it turned off while I was driving. So I think this is during that same period of time that I was trying to start my car
so I can drive my car instead of the city car. >> The next example is one Saturday, Miss Cottage drove by a city employees house. Two men, both city employees on the day off were outside repairing a door. Miss Cotti asked if they knew a handyman. >> That's true. I've been looking for a
handyman. I did find one. I paid that handyman to do the work I needed at my house. But it's also true that on Saturdays I do drive around the city, look at different areas and I happened to stumble uh on the house where I saw
two or public works individuals and they were working. So I said, "Okay, uh can you help me?" They said, "No, we got to finish this." I said, "Okay, well, do you know a handyman that can help me?" And they did not. So I went on the internet and I finally found one.
Um the next statement, three times an employee assisted me with moving my car to the repair shop and back to the office. >> This is true. Uh my administrative assistant, it was that the day was ended and uh I had to go pick up the car. I
think it was my personal car from the repair shop. And also I had to grab the dogs and order. So everything was happening at the same time. and she did offer to help me and she did. Um that next day we wanted to make sure that the
car was clean. So I said, "Look, call public works. Let's make sure it's clean." And that that's pretty much what happened. >> Um the ninth allegation, improper comments such as losing weight, hair, and makeup.
>> So I'm not really sure what that is about. Uh I always encourage um the directors to look their best and uh especially on commission night. You know, I do encourage all of us to look business professional. So, I'm not
actually sure about this. I wouldn't say lose weight as far as I know, but I may comment on your hair. I wouldn't comment on your makeup, but I might say your hair look good. Something like that. The next item, misconduct while
investigation in progress. The employee to confirm her loyalty, Miss Cotti, repeatedly pressed the employee for information about the investigation. >> Okay. So, when I came back on September 17th and um I walked by my administrative assistant as I always do.
Um as she came in to help me, I said, "Is it okay for us to work together? Are we good?" She said, "Yes." And she said, "This two will pass." So, I didn't ask her about the investigation, but I did say, "Are we good?" Um, as it relates to
the investigation, I believe I I know for a fact I spoke to u police chief, mayor, and human resources. Um, mainly to confirm how I supposed to operate. Uh, there was not written guidance, but I was given some guidance. Um the
guidance that I think we understood we being myself and department heads was that if the department head had had no problem with coming into the office working with me then they did do that. If a department head expressed to Chief
Shaw that they were not comfortable then they came in with Chief Shaw. So um there was that moment of just doing the best we understood. I told the city employee that she is now eligible to be paid overtime when she
works more than 40 hours a week, which is a reversal of prior practice. >> So, uh, my administrative assistant, I had um went, okay, so we started a system here in the city to try to ensure that all employees would pass what we
call the probationary period. This is a new process. The process says that 45 days in, before you hit 45 days, your department head will meet with you, go over how you're performing, give you heads up, etc. Once we do that, we do
meet again for the 90day. So, with this employee, um, I wanted to complete that 90-day probation evaluation. However, when she called HR, HR told her, "No, no, no, it's 180 days." So I said, "Okay, great. So you've already passed
your probationary period." Um I assume there may have been a conversation about whether she's exempt or not exempt, but um if she's not exempt, then she would qualify for overtime compensation. If she worked more than 40 hours, that's
the best that I can respond to that. Since September 17, 2025, Miss Connie has attempted without result to influence or control the city's communications with the media regarding her employee status, employment status, or the status of this investigation.
>> So, my response is that's not true. I'm not sure um why that statement is made or how. As far as I recall, there were two entities that did try to connect with me uh on my phone or email, but I
think mainly phone from what I remember. And there's a Jax uh 40 or 45. And there's Palaka Daily News. Uh I did not respond to either and referred to public information officer, one of which I
think I sent via email. Those were all of the allegations that you may want to read what you perceive as the desired income, what you would like to see as the >> Oh, if that's okay. So, uh, for all that is here and particularly my supervisors,
the commissioners, um, my I just want to say I've enjoyed being here tremendously. I love this city. I think it's the bomb. I think there's a lot of future for growth and development. There's a lot of challenges. Um, I think that in one year
we've achieved a lot as a team, myself and the department heads and the staff at large. Um, I've enjoyed all of the various um, positions held and functions the chief. I've learned a lot at the same time. Um,
these allegations have made me stop and perform uh, self evaluation. Uh I believe that there is room for improvement in me. Uh I guess I I just listening to it, it makes me feel like
um I need to learn more about speaking kindly. Uh maybe I'm very direct kind of person uh primarily because I'm so resultsoriented and deadline oriented. But um out of
about 20 employees, I think you know a good three really gave formal complaints um that that doesn't matter. What does matter is the fact that it is perceived that I offended someone and perhaps I
did and I don't like that. I'm not that kind of person. Um, I would have liked to have been given the opportunity uh to actually talk to the individuals that I may have offended. I would have
liked that um if if I had hurt someone's feelings that they could have come to me and say, "Hey, Miss Cardi, you did so and so." So that way I would know that, oh, okay, I crossed the boundary. So, um, unfortunately, I wasn't really given
that opportunity, but I do in fact appreciate being able to be here today to speak to my supervisors and everyone else to let you know that I'm I I really regret that we're here. I I it just
hurts my heart. >> Thank you. So, moving forward, um, Commissioner Davis, do you have any comments at this time? I was just going to move on to section five of the contract. Miss Cotti does
mention in her desired outcome that she looks forward to the 30-day cure period. Um, in her contract, there's reference to that section 5A um to cure the deficiency. So the city manager may only be removed as set forth in the city charter as it may be amended
from time to time. Prior to taking the vote to terminate as set forth in the city charter, the city will first provide the city manager with written notice of the circumstances giving rise to termination as well as a 30-day opportunity to cure the deficiencies to the satisfaction of a majority of the
city council. Should the deficiencies be considered unressed and outstanding by the majority of the city council, the city manager shall have the right to request a public hearing before removal? Um, so since Miss Carter did reference hearing the 3-day cure period, that is
where that that comes from. Yes. >> And and I don't know again if anybody has any comments or feedback how to how we want to move forward. I I want to just say for me that um
without having the investigator here to present his findings, which means we're not hearing the full result here at this meeting. And yes, I have read them. Um,
right now we have Miss um, Card's rebuttal, but I just feel like there's a piece missing for the full disclosure for us to be able to move forward for me right now. So, I'll yield
and see how the rest of the commission feels. Commissioner Borum, do you have any thoughts? >> Well, I'm I'm still processing. We just the investigation just got completed uh Monday. We're here on Wednesday. Uh
it we I'm still processing this information. And again, we don't have the investigator here. Um and then Miss Cardi did the best she could within the hour to respond to the various allegations. And having that information
is is is especially good to be able to hear both sides because we only had heard one side all the way up until Monday. And so to be fair to Miss Cardi, um my thing is I think we we we should do
what's right and move forward with trying to help make it. She asked for a curing process. We never had a curing process for any of the things the allegations that's been put out there. and she's had not had a chance to uh correct anything that some of the people
made allegations about. I don't and she sound like she said that they didn't let her know that hey you cross boundaries and that's not um appropriate and um so I think with all of these different things um
you there there should not be no adverse action taken at least in my mind because that's the kind of feel I have right here in in the look and feel of this whole thing. My thing is we should do
the very best we can to make sure we protect our staff as well as the employee that works for us. And we need to make sure that we don't do anything haphazardly. We need to make sure that we're we're doing everything decent and
in order as it relates to this whole thing. So, uh that's my point. And I believe she's asked for a curing process. I think 30, 60, 90 days for any of those allegations that came forth to be able to address those things. If they
come back out and come up again, we got processes in place to be able to deal with that. So, uh, unless we had something that's concrete that deemed it should be something different,
I didn't see that in the report and I didn't hear that coming from Miss Cardi. So, that's my statement. >> Commissioner Campbell. Um, I think there's an opportunity.
I don't think with the given time frame, let me rephrase that. I think the commission is acting appropriately being that the investigation had concluded. I do believe that having the
opportunity to hear Miss Cardi, whether it be today or whether it be a week from now, the responses that she gave, if she gave them tonight, I'm quite sure they wouldn't change a week from now. But I also wanted to
have the opportunity to show staff that we're taking in consideration. However, staff does not respond to us. Miss Cardi does. Um, and honestly, I believe in what I want to hear with some of the
allegations and HR, you might have to come up for the questions that I'm about to ask. If an employee other than Miss Cardi was to do some of the things as far as have someone come to do work or
something, what generally would be done from an HR standpoint >> um if they're from an HR if um employees or whatever if a complaint is made to um to to human resources um regarding anybody with the exception of the city
manager that reports to you, it would go to that supervisor. So I would take that information to the supervisor and the supervisor has the ability to meet with HR if they so prefer to have HR in there to discuss all of these things and try to come to a conclusion at that level.
If it doesn't get resolved at that level, then that's when we would take it to the city manager. It would only make it to you all if the city manager was unable to resolve that um for at that point. >> And so I asked that question because I don't want to do anything that
or make a drastic decision and it could be something that could be worked out. So that's why I asked for the protocol if it was an employee outside of the city manager. >> Yes, sir. Um, I believe as I was going to open up with
initially that I believe that some of the things that were listed um could be dealt with with providing some resources for Miss Cardi. Um, again,
Miss Cardi is an our employee. Miss Cardi reports to us. She doesn't report to anybody else. Um, and just to clarify my question with regards to the protocol, are those the question that I just asked
you, are those um, uh, cases or could it result in termination with regards to having someone come do work? Could that result in termination? According to our progressive
disciplinary policy, if someone went and used um because we have had employees that were written up for using city equipment for personal use, they were written up. That does not automatically result in termination. That would result
in initial or verbal or written and then could lead to termination, but probably not just based on that one incident. >> Okay. Thank you. legal with regards to some of the accusations.
if we were to offer the 30-day or whatever day amount curing process. Um, are any of those from your knowledge, because I know you were not the investigator,
um, things that could possibly result in legal actions to against the city? >> Yes. >> Could you identify what those are? the
uh I'm I'm actually a little hesitant to do that because this is a public forum and I would be exposing potential legal liability. >> Respectfully, I appreciate that. Um ultimately, I'm just on the fence with this. Um we've been or I've set behind
this day is um for years now um we've had to make some tough decisions with regards to city managers and I can honestly say I have not been to this point. Um, so I want when I'm making my decision,
when I'm making or when I'm trying to process this is processing it from a place of trying to be very one transparent, trying to be two protective of our employee, three being protective
of the employees of the city. Um, and again, I'll stand by what I stated before that some of these offenses I believe could be worked out with providing resources to Miss Cardi for
leadership and all of those kind of things. Um, and that's kind of where I stand. Um, I take this very seriously. Um, because again, this is someone livelihood. Um,
but I I do believe that there is an opportunity for us to work through this to a certain extent. How does that look? I don't know. Now, would it work? I don't know. I don't want to put her in a compromising position and I definitely
don't want to put the the staff in a compromising position. But sometimes it's just hard. It's just a hard position right now. >> Commissioner Jones.
>> Commissioner Jones. >> Yes. Can you hear me? >> Yes. Um my take on the entire investigation in the rebuttal is
there's levels of this complaint to maybe minor curable offenses to egregious offenses that
a person at this position can and would have been terminated for uh and whether it's Miss Cardi or whoever is at that position to whom much is given much is required
and that's the ultimate leadership role of the city of Palaka being a city manager and all of the acts that happen or failed to happen comes back on the
commission giving thought to what has gone on what taking place the allegation along with the rebuttal um I talked to action sitting there
and expressed the lack of policy on behalf of the city of Palato. We really don't have much to fall back on. Our practice have been
together. >> Tell him he's not coming. >> All right. Can you hear me? Will you come closer to your mic or to your device because we're having trouble. You're fading out on us. >> I'm sorry. >> Those last words here. >> You can probably start over.
>> Well, caught some of it but not all of it. And especially that la your last couple of sentences were gobbled. So, can I I heard Shaw I think I heard Chief Shaw's name. But whatever you saying regarding that >> after speaking to Chief Shaw, that's
good. But I didn't really uh I asked I asked about having a plan prior to this meeting. Whatever disciplinary steps we're going to take,
are we prepared after we make the decision to go whichever direction it be? rather it be a uh performance plan, rather be a suspension, rather be termination and those things
should also have come to us from human resources. We are now whatever decision we make tonight, we're not really prepared to go forth with anything. It'll be a decision made
and of course we have the the chief as acting uh city manager right now. However, what direction we want to head and if it's actually feasible this the other part of being being feasible to do
anything. What does our policy policy say? I think there's a lack of policy that actually covers where we are right now.
That's that's my take on it. I think that uh you mentioned mayor about the contract with the contract being what this what the uh state of Florida is free to hire, free to fire.
Those things all should be taken into consideration. and actually our past practices which should have been policy at this time versus just practices. We need some consistency and the consist consistency
could start today. So that's my take on it uh at this point. >> Thank you. Um I just have a couple of thoughts beyond what everybody's already said. Um, when we talk about um, asking
employees to do things for personal use or repairs, I do think the city manager is held to a higher standard. And if the city manager isn't aware that that's not something you can do, uh, how would any other employee know? So, I think we
maybe need to spell that out in policy, maybe a little stronger, but honestly, I would hope the city manager would know that more than anybody in the city employees of all the city employees rather. So, I'm I'm a little I'm concerned about that. There are a lot of things I'm concerned about if we do. Um,
and in fact, the request by Miss Cotti is to consider the 30-day opportunity to cure the deficiencies, but basically, she responded and said she really didn't do any of these things. though >> she she did say she she admitted to some of those mayor. >> She did she did admit to some of those,
but several of those she did not. >> Um so yeah, you're right to the the personnel issues that came up. Yes. Um and that perhaps there were some things that were not done correctly. I I don't this is a difficult situation for all of us and I think it's hard to have a
policy to address everything that every single thing that comes up and this is one of those things that I guess is hard to anticipate to have a policy for frankly um we want to do what's best for Miss Cotti as our only employee but also for city employees and I am
concerned uh the investigation the report clearly we're a small city clearly tells you from Miss Cott's perspective who some of the employees are to the specific complaints and I am concerned
about them frankly so I'm not sure what the best solution is and we need some HR our help. Um, moving forward, if we were to consider this 30-day cure period, um, how does that actually how do we actually do that
while protecting city employees that are here so that we don't lose any more employees? Go ahead. I want >> I want to respond to well not make not in disagreement but I want to respond to
something that Commissioner Jones stated >> where how do we go or how would we basically proceed from here. I think we could not have come up with anything until we came together as a commission to have that discussion. HR can't give
us direction of how we move forward with our employee because she is a a support correct >> to the city manager. So that I just wanted to put that out on the forefront that there is nothing that could have
come from anyone outside of the individuals that were elected to this position. Um so with that said even how the cure process looks it's up to us how it looks and not any employee. This decision that we make tonight is a
decision that has to come from the day. If we have questions of course we may ask questions but ultimately we are the ones that are going to have to move forth and shape this the way that it needs to be shaped. I don't want to put any other employee and I do want to
apologize to the city manager for asking that question earlier. Um I mean not I do it all the time the >> attorney west the the city attorney. >> But again this decision is something that we're going to have to put our boots on,
tighten our belts and make a stance one way or another. I don't want to put a employee in any kind of way, shape or form, put them in a compromising position. So again, this is something that has to be
shaped and formed by the five individuals that sit up here. >> I agree. I I HR may have to give us some guidance, but I totally agree. Ultimately, this is this commission's decision on how to move forward and how to address this issue. Go ahead, Commissioner Davis. No, you was first.
You you put your hand. >> Um, what I think we need to do is let's think about the outcomes that we're looking for. You know, number one, we want our city employees protected. Number one, we want to make sure Miss Cardi has due process. Um,
number three, we want to make sure our city is stable. And so the question is whichever direction we take, we have to consider those outcomes. I do agree that the city
manager is held to a higher standard because she's the CEO of the city and while there is opportunity and even at the time of hiring there was a
stipulation for continued leadership training working towards certification. there was still a level of expectation that was presented both in the interview and with our understanding of what could
happen. Some of the things we are um discussing or addressing with these allegations are not unique. Well, they are unique to someone who
would have that level of experience and could execute that role in a way. So um while I do see the responses from Miss Cardi, there are some specific items and from
the number of employees that I think puts this in a category that's higher than we normally would be had it been and not negating one person, but there there's a substantial number
of employees who provide provided information over a period of time. And while Miss Cardi disagrees with some of them and some of the details of some of
them, again, I look at the number of employees. I look at some of the consequences that have occurred. Some people have actually left the city in key positions who brought a great skill set to our city.
Um, I also know that there was a survey that went out and feedback was provided prior from direct reports. I also know that we have instability in
this city with our city managers over the past few years. And while I'm not saying Miss Cardi has to pay for the sins of the inst or the consequences of the instability, I just want to make sure that we consider the outcomes that I outlined.
stability for the city, protection for our employees, due process of course, and the other thing I want to say is that this is the only form that we could discuss this with because she is a um
charter officer reporting directly to the commission. So, we had to have this meeting um as you mentioned, Commissioner Campbell. Um, but I just want us to proceed with again taking due process but taking the
necessary action because my question is what will it look like tomorrow for the employees who are clearly identified by some of the allegations. Um, and there's been reference to some of those employees even by Miss Cardi. She knows
who they are. So what does that look like? So I think those are some of my questions. >> Yeah. And you know on that end I think um what it would look like if there may be retaliatory uh actions. We do have
policy in place. Uh am I correct? We got a retal policy >> a strong policy against retaliation. >> Yes sir. So I think that would be a key mechanism if in fact so we got some
things that's on deck right now. So it's on deck. We're aware of it. We we we know whether it's you know these these are allegations cuz we don't know we have Miss Carter's side and we also have the staff side. So, but
we have those things out there and and if there if there are retaliations against it, then that that's what I think the employees could use from a protective measure measure standpoint. The other thing I've and I'm going to go back to one of the com or
two of the comments I think that was made about some of the employees. I know Miss Carter even reached out to me and said something about asking for a handyman. So, uh, and I didn't I didn't know of a handyman that I could offer her when I had a meeting with her. And
then at the same time, then there's um this other thing when you got staff who who was um working certain staff working Miss Cardi doing um the investigative. So yes, certain people was report uh
coming to Miss Cardi for uh assistance or u during the investigative period and so those things were not clear lines as it related to some employees could come and and others couldn't. So I can see from her standpoint when she it looked like she
was not um following protocol. I think that was kind of allowed because we have a new finance director and we were we were in um the ending part of the budgeting season which we um still needed. She's only been here for 3
months and so I think some of those things kind of came into play as well. We got to look at the bigger picture of everything. We've never done this before in the past when we had different things come up.
um city manager disappeared quick. I mean, I've been here since 2015 and um we've had probably about 13 13 interims and permanent city managers and some of
them went away very quickly and others left on their own. But anyways, so I I think we're in a we're in a place where we can truly make a difference for our staff because we have never had where
staff actually reported on a lot of city managers because of the fear of what would happen. Now, in the past, I've heard managers used to slam doors and curse staff out. That's what I that's
what was told to me. And I have I had to step in a number of time for staff before back um five six years ago when we had an instance of different things as it related to staff taking things to city managers uh among other things and
that city manager kind of went away. But anyways, long story short, we're here now. I think we're in a much better place now hearing all hearing all the signs and understanding and knowing what we can do to move forward to help make
this city a much better place. If things were clear they're clearcut to say you you violated certain things that raised to the level of termination that would be something that I wouldn't blank on. Again, I don't want to beat
the dead horse, but I that's those are just my comments. >> Thank you. In regards, yes, we have a policy in regards to retaliation. However, I don't know that employees will be brave enough to bring that information forward in the future if they feel and it's just that, you know,
again, they've filed their concerns and complaints, put their name to them. There's been an investigation. The investigator basically validated a lot of that. And then I don't think that they're going to be willing to come forward without fear of retaliation whether that happens or not even if
there is a policy. They they'll just be afraid I think to come forward. >> You say you think >> because I don't know for sure. I I can't I don't know for each I can't be inside of everybody's head. I'm just saying I I would think it's possible that you'd be to be afraid. Go ahead, Commissioner
Davis. >> One second. John, I >> I want to two things. Um I want to clarify though. I disagree with the fact that there was not clear direction given. I believe we gave clear direction
from Miss Dez. I believe um chief um I believe the chief understood it. It's my understanding that there might have been some questions, but I believe clear direction was given. Now, how it
was interpreted is another story. And and again, we're talking about the CEO of the city. So, when we said no direct reports, it meant no direct reports. Now, there
might have been something they worked out, but I do believe clear direction was given. Um, another thing I'd like to say is that for in terms of retaliation, we do have evidence in the um, investigation that there are employees
who are very afraid to even interview because of fear of retaliation. Not saying we don't have a policy and they're protected, they just don't feel protected. And I I that's the reality of it. The one thing that's a constant no
matter how many city managers we get is the staff who's been here for years doing the work. And again, that's why I laid out the three pieces that we really have to make sure we're considering. I also believe there were direct
allegations and based on the investigation report, I concluded that there are items that are grounds for termination. So, I do want to be clear. I saw several items that were grounds for termination. Now, how we get there
is the due process piece that I'm leaning to because in these contract terms, it says that there has to be a notice with 30-day opportunity to cure the deficiencies. That's the piece I'm not sure about reconciling based on some
of those instances, some of their um investigation um what some of the investigation revealed and um so I'm going to just stop there. Commissioner Jones,
>> this rarely happens, but Commissioner Davis just pinged on what I was going to say. There are some allegations or fact. I'm not going to say allegations because the the fact
were confirmed by Miss Cardi tonight on some of the things that were took place. Now, what wasn't and I have a question for Miss Cardi since this is a factf finding form. I guess
she mentioned about work being done at her house and Miss Cardi said that she wasn't there when they came in. So, did you give those people permission to
be there? open the door for him remotely some kind of way. How did that happen? >> Because >> actually, one minute. Let him finish, Miss Cotty, and then you can answer. So, so with that it it you know with the
factf finding on on the investigative side they basically said it took place and you ordered the the repair through our
employees but you didn't know if they went on during work hours or after work hours. You could only clear that up because I'm quite sure the employee that talked to the investigator
has said it. I just want to know from you, do you know when it actually happened? What time of the day did it happen? >> I honestly do not know. I know that I was over here working and um my recollection would be that um you know
public works were really helpful towards me when I'm here and um I think what I recall is saying I don't know how to do my door knobs and so I I I believe the per I know the person went by my
daughter said they came by. I don't know when I wasn't there. I was happy that they did help me, but I did not I didn't know that I was ordering anyone. I'm sure they heard me talk about I don't know how to do the doorork knobs and
they offered to help and I I accepted it, but I did not view it. Like I said to someone, go into my house. I I don't even know when they did it. I don't even know when the person came by. And uh my daughter is the one that said,
"Mom, I think one day they did come by." I said, "Are you sure?" And then uh she mentioned the car wasn't working and the other car wasn't working because the uh city vehicle was not working properly as I said and it turned off in the middle
of the highway. So I needed to get my car and that's I don't I wasn't there. I didn't see it. I wasn't there. So, and I know I was working here a lot. I was uh just doing many things and they
did help me and I accepted the help. >> But now that this has occurred, now I know I will never accept any help from anyone. Um, as it relates to someone helping me at the work, which was what moving the
car from the parking lot from the uh repair shop to here, I won't even do that. But I did not realize that me receiving volunteer assistance was construed to be that I actually sat down
and thought consciously about having some employee go to my house and help me. Um, everybody know I was looking for a handyman and I did finally find one and paid them
and that's it. >> You So you paid the city worker, too? >> No. >> No, I'm asking. I'm trying to get clarity. >> No, sir. I like I said, they they heard me talking cuz I'm working and uh they
they offered to help and I received the help and that's really it. Now, when did they go? I don't know. Uh my daughter's the one that remind because I told her um when I first heard of it and I said, "Did this ever happen?" And she said,
"Yeah, one day they did come by." I said, "Okay, good." I didn't remember. Thanks. >> So, it's not something that I, you know, ordered or insisted upon or demanded. uh they simply heard me speaking and
offered to assist and I did accept it. >> Well um so that's almost like accepting a gratuitity or so. Um so when I asked that question I had in order to make a a
sound prudent thinking man's decision on this I had to know that fact and I would like to you know I give you that opportunity to to to make it clear in this this type of form. Um then you had to deal with the
car picking your car up from the shop shop and uh having an employee vacuum out your car as it was their duty and it felt degrading or it felt that they had
to do it. Um and it's not part of their job. That was another allegation. >> I'm sorry uh commissioner. I hate to interrupt you, but that is not at all the situation at all. Uh it was just a matter of uh I had to pick up my
personal car and uh I think I was driving the uh city car and uh the person was getting off work and u said she would help me. So I said, "Okay, we'll just run over to the repair
place." I got there, my dogs were in the car. I did not want her to drive u a company car because I think it's only for me. And so she drove my car or something like that. But it was so
quick. Um no, she never ever ever cleaned a car for me. Never. Never. Never. The next day, um we wanted to clean the card because a commissioner was going to use the card.
So we called public works to clean the car that and that was the city owned car. So she did help me after work for about five minutes. That was it. >> And again
remember the employees made the allegations. They made the complaints towards you. So it's not that we're looking for it. It came to us. And >> so when you when you say 30-day curable,
30-day right to cure or try to cure what have taken place, you can't take it back work that was done and it was done under maybe a employee I don't know what the employee was thinking. Maybe they thought they had to
do it. Maybe it was applied go by some time a day and and do this. I don't know. Um, again, um, I lean on the the side of protecting employees, protecting you as much as we can, but
also protecting the city for what can come as a result of the decisions that you made. And um, and we we have to look at it that way. And I think all of us have to look at a
liability standpoint uh, of the city. based on our actions whenever we we make them we deem to make an action we we need to think about the legality or the liability that we have
and that's all I have mayor thank you >> thank you commissioner Davis you had something >> miss Cardi when you read the report of the investigator and you saw the details that were shared
do you believe that these are embellished reports. >> Well, I think it's a combination. I think uh some I I I mean I was just surprised
uh I was shocked by reading some of this um uh whatever I could relate to and and say, "Okay, this happened." Maybe not the way how expressed but you know either yes it did or it didn't. Then I
just proceeded to answer but uh my first uh reaction was surprised and shocked. >> Were you surprised at the number of employees? >> I I noticed that there were definitely three and possibly a four.
>> Um I don't know. That's all I know. Uh what the investigator >> I'm sorry that's from reading the report. How did how did how did you come to that conclusion? >> Okay. The investigator explained that there were three. >> Yes. >> And what he told me was that his methodology
of conducting the investigation was to ask to talk to more >> employees beyond those that had actually presented any allegations. >> Okay. >> That's what he shared with me. Okay.
>> So, not only did he speak to the three, he expanded the population of who he spoke to. >> Yes. And so, my question is, were you surprised at the number of employees and the situations
in this report because it's obviously more than three. Can do you >> or did you get that? Let me stop. I don't really lead you. Did you get that there were more than three from this report? >> I got that there were three and possibly
I I know for sure there's three. >> Did you get from this report that there could be more than three? >> I can't say I did. >> Okay. Right. So, the other thing I'd like to mention is that as a city commissioner, I smile a lot and I'm
pretty casual when I'm out and about. However, one thing that reminds me of people's perception of me as a city commissioner is when I see people I know personally, they'll say, "Hi, commissioner." And I sometimes will say, "Oh, it's an" and they'll say, "No, hi
commissioner." The point I want to drive is that based on our positions, there comes with it a perceived power over others in some cases. And I'm going to use that word power. And I'm
mentioning that because I believe from your perspective when you talk to employees and you say you said in one instance an employee volunteered in another instance you drove by their home and saw them out there and asked a question. The person with who helped
with the door knobs. I just want to remind you and again this is where I'm struggling because of the position of a city manager being the CEO to understand the power that that brings over
insubordinance perceived or otherwise. And we really in some instances have a power imbalance. So what could look like, and I'm not disputing that an employee didn't volunteer, but in certain instances,
subordinates often feel they cannot comply whether it's casual or not. I just want I'm not saying that happened. I do want to bring that to your attention, especially in the position in which you hold. And so while I hear the
volunteering, it gives me pause when I'm reading this when that is the response that they volunteered or they did it because in our positions we have to know what's appropriate and what's not and we are held to that standard. So I do want
to just >> Commissioner Campber >> I have to I have to put this out. This is actually the second round of grievances that we received. We was just here in March where you responded and
I'm looking at that email and some of the behaviors that were laid out within that grievance are some of the same behaviors that are listed in the grievances that we had.
So, I do want to make sure and it just hit me and I had to go back and look for myself, but this is not the first round of grievance that we received. >> I also want to clarify that um in your responses, you said that you received no direction. I know I personally spoke to
you on one occasion and again with Chief Shure uh about the specifically about the fact that you were not to interact with any employees that they were going to go through Chief Shaw. So that was specifically said to you a couple of times most recently I said it to you
again about a week and a half ago when I saw you interacting with an employee and and came back and said remember and you said you you didn't understand that initially. So again, that had been that had been communicated to you on multiple occasions, and I'm just concerned that
you didn't understand that after being told several times not to interact with employees during the investig investigation period. And the reason for that was because in our setting, you
know, I was told that uh the directors can come to me as they were as long as they were not, you know, as long as they were comfortable. And then those that were not, they came with uh Chief Shaw. So, >> okay. But I don't remember telling you that. >> No, you didn't. But I did not tell you.
I told you all employees would be communicating through Chief Shaw. So just to clarify that. Okay. So we are at the point and again I'm going back to the contract agreement um with the 30 days to cure deficiency
too. This is a question for the attorney and I think it's just a a factual question or clarification where it says this and I hope I don't sound too I just want to clarify when it says that
will first provide the city manager with written notice of the circumstances giving rise to termination if we went that route as well as that's and the equivalent of and a 30-day
opportunity to cure the deficiencies to the satisfaction. So, it's my question is no matter if if we went to the um point of termination, we still have to give a
30-day cure period. It is that the way I understand that? And so I'm I'm not sure how this fits in. I I really just want to understand our options. >> So uh a written notice was provided on
September 12th. I believe you have a copy of that. The issue I think is does that written notice which would provide 30 days
identify the deficiencies in a sufficient manner and this isn't in the paragraph but in the interest of providing due process to Miss Cardi would that letter that she was provided
on uh September 12th did that delineate the circumstances in a manner that she would have awareness as to what deficiencies she would need to cure.
That's a factual issue. >> You have the letter. >> Yes, >> you can make that decision on your own. That letter was provided. It was in excess of 30 days. But >> we do need to provide not only do we
need to adhere to the contractual terms here, but you do need to provide due process. >> Agreed. >> In my opinion, that didn't happen in the letter. >> Agreed. >> I do agree. And that's why I wanted to ask that question so we could make sure we had the same fundamental
understanding. I do not agree that I agree that it did not provide that opportunity. Um, um, I'm leaning towards and that's I guess what I'm saying providing the opportunity to correct it.
Where I'm hesitant again is once Miss Cardi was made aware of the allegations or after the You've never Have you ever been made aware of the allegations? >> Not the specifics, just there were several made. >> Got it. >> Today. Thank you. And then um and and
were you made aware in the investigative report? >> No. >> Oh, you got the actual allegations. The >> the actual report, not the allegations. >> That's what that's what I'm hearing the investigation. He did not state the allegations. >> No, that wouldn't happen. >> Yes. That's not what I'm saying. So, so
technically what are we saying? Has Miss Cardi received the allegations >> today? I think >> she saw the final report. She never saw the initial original allegations because that would had that had individuals names on it. >> No, no, no. I I understand where I'm
going with my question then is are we considering this report day one of her seeing the allegations. That's where I'm going because we got 30 days. I'm trying to >> I'm trying to set up a process here based on our >> Now I get what you're >> on her contract.
So if that's the case, if this is day one or is this mean we have 30 days to allow her to um correct these findings? If so,
I am still concerned because of the nature of them and staff in order to do that. I don't know how we could accomplish that without her being fully back in the position and having full autonomy to address the
circumstances. So, it's like it's a catch22. So, that's the clarification I'm trying to get to, if that makes sense. Um, and I have concerns about it because I do think some of these um findings are pretty egregious for that
position. I do and I also concern that it leads you specifically to some individual employees based on the findings. So that is my concern and yes I understand we have a policy in regards to retaliation but this is their supervisor and it's a it's intimidating.
>> Yes, I understand that. So >> so I'm not so where I'm going is do we have any other choice? I don't hear another choice and if I am missing another choice just let me know because all I see based on the contract terms is
that we have to give her 30 days to correct to to see that we also can just directly terminate there are consequences for that I'm not suggesting we do that or not do that but there that is the only
other option Anybody else have any? Go ahead, Commissioner BL. >> And and I think if we need guidance that we also can use um the labor attorney or um individuals from the Florida League of Cities to kind of help in this uh
whole situation that we we're currently in. his first time being here and I think it's an opportunity if the commission agrees I I think just bringing in um somebody with the floor legacy is going to help in this regard
going forward you know with guidance as it relates to employee relations and different things of that nature since we won't be dealing with HR because that's a whole different ball game I think maybe we could lend oursel
do um for League of Cities to lend in that regard. >> But what happens tomorrow? >> We tomorrow we I mean we can continue if we can let's let's look at shifting the date maybe until we reach out because we
haven't been given much. We haven't had a lot of buffer space to work with. We just come up, we just got the investigation completed on Monday and we had no plan coming in today. So what the plan is for tomorrow, if we want to
continue that process where you have the separation until we get a process in place, we'll continue with what we have. That's the recommendation and and until we can get another entity, Florida cities labor individuals to kind of help
us in this situation. That's where we are. Commissioner Campbell, Commissioner Jones. Um, I have concerns about that. I understand what you're saying and I'm not saying a labor a labor attorney is not a valid
suggestion, but I have tomorrow is tomorrow and um if we're letting things go on again, Miss Cotti hadn't followed directions. She hadn't stopped interacting with employees and we're
putting them in a precarious situation. So, I think we have to do better in terms of coming up with some ideas. And I I know it's difficult and I don't have all the ideas and I'm not certainly but I don't know if we can let it go.
>> Go ahead, Commissioner. Go ahead, Commissioner. Commissioner Davis, >> you >> Okay. Well, so here here are here are some options I think are viable. Um, number one,
Miss Cardi can continue for 30 days. So, let me be clear. I I'm not I'm here on day one. This is day one for me. And so, I'm not amiable to any other days or more days than we need. If this contract
says 30 days, she has to have a 30-day opportunity. I'm um if we have to give the 30-day opportunity, it has to be with guidance. And I think if that is still an option for
consistency, it is continuing with the um Chief Shaw for 30 days as the acting assistant city manager if that is a viable option to continue with that. Um
number a second option well and if we are able to give some direction as to what that looks like right because obviously I'm not going to support her meeting with staff
individually. So the support um I believe that Commissioner Borum you're mentioning I I think it's just going to have to come internally. I don't know, maybe we get somebody from Florida League of Cities, but if they can't be here tomorrow, >> then we have to come up with something
because tomorrow that's not an overnight um item. >> Um that's that's right now what I can think of. Um and the other option is termination. >> The other option is a paid leave.
>> And the other option, okay, paid leave. So those are options. So, I just want to make sure we put all options on and discuss pros and cons of each. I'm not saying where I'm headed. I just want to make sure we understand our options. >> Commissioner Campbell, >> let me ask these questions. Um, Miss
Cardi, have you taken the class or the recommendation from hostile workplace prevention? >> I did actually take a class. Yes. >> Did you take the class managing emotions in the workplace and communication styles? I'm
>> I'm pretty sure I did. And I started taking those classes um just as I started noticing I needed to improve in some areas. >> That was a recommendation that came from >> and did you provide the documentation to HR that you completed those some documentation?
>> I can. >> Okay, that would be great. >> When were they completed? >> I don't know the actual date, but it would have been before June 2025. I'm just a tad bit concerned. Like I say, I'm on the fence and it's hard. I'm
just a tad bit concerned taking in consideration what has happened previously and it seems to be a continuation of what has happened. Um,
I get that you're our only employee and I definitely want to do everything, but how many times do we get to this point and we not take a action one way or another? Like I said, we were just here in March with regards to other
grievances. Um, we continued. There were things that put in place. That's why I asked the question with regards to had those things taken place because some of those allegations stems back to what would be considered a
hostile work environment. Um and even been communicated that you have been working with the Florida League or who have you >> Yeah. Jim Hansen. >> And since when since the allegations came out? Yeah, maybe because he did
come here and actually meet with me and consulted me as well. And uh his uh recommendation was to continue and just you know try to be responsive just you know do my best.
So matter of fact uh his primary uh suggestion was for me to attend the conference in October uh taking all of the classes and developing other relationships with
other city managers. So that's pretty much >> And when is that? >> It's uh the last week of Octo are you registered for it? >> I am as he said. Commissioner Jones, are you still there? >> I am.
>> Okay. I didn't know if you had any input or thoughts. >> I I put mine out there. >> Okay. >> When I said what liability we have, are we considering liability? uh
to protect employees. You know, we have one employer versus nine at this point according to with the addition of what Commissioner Campbell has just disclosed.
Um there have been opportunities um first of the year we were tasked with getting a team building exercise. I don't know if the commissioner commissioners one by one decided on not doing that or city
manager just said that she didn't think it was in the best interest. I have no idea. I didn't push the issue anymore. is just I knew that coming in from the position of a director of finance being
promoted to city manager is a great task and I didn't think that would harm the ability to kind of gel with your employees and that didn't take place and that to me that was a step towards
trying to get the cohesiveness point when you have this many employees that stepped out boldly and made a grievance against
the CEO, ladies and gentlemen. It's an issue and we we can't dance around it. I've I've seen we can't dance around it and that's my take on it. We going you going we we
going to take action or whatn not um because later there are some things that already took place you can't cure them in 30 days. Some some of the things are incurable. So while we making a decision whatever
decision is going to be we need to I think we need to actually legal citizens can't help us with it we have to be we got to stand on our own two feet and say listen do do it meet or not the criteria
the term do it meet agreed criteria to just say uh no well do leave or absent I mean leave without pay you know let's let Let's ask ourselves the hard questions and make the tough decisions that we're
elected to do. >> Going to be taking over tonight. Okay. Well, >> that's my point. and um for consideration period if we can't we need to specifically outline whatever decision we make we need to outline expectations moving
forward um during this time frame um and uh I I don't have again I'm inclined to either do the paid leave initially we need to figure this out first. I don't know that you're going to do that tonight. Exactly. So, I'm inclined, you
know, to consider the paid leave until we can we know what we're going to do moving forward. It's just again my thought. >> Um paid leave. She's that means she won't be here. >> That means she won't be here for a long
time until we outline specifically everything we our expectations and put it all in writing so that it's clear. >> Can I make a recommendation? You sure can. Because chief still will be acting >> correct >> as assistant city manager. >> Correct. >> If he's we if we gonna pay her, I want
her to work. Um let her continue to do her work. If if if she's on paid leave, I want her to continue to work taxpayer dollars. Taxpayer dollars. I want her to continue to do what she would normally do because she's
not going to affect staff administly. Have her work remotely. What do you clarify? just for me. I >> whatever it take to get her job done the the if she's getting paid, I want her to do do the work. I want her to be doing the work. I don't want her sitting home
getting paid. I want her to be doing the work. So that's just my taxpayer dollar kind of thing. >> Okay. Thank you. Does anybody else have any thoughts about the direction to go to go in at this point in time? >> I I go ahead. Go ahead, Commissioner
Jones. for clear direction because Miss Cardi said she wasn't given clear direction last time. I I agree with Commissioner Borne. The direction that was given as she's
worked as normal with all of the projects that we have done. make sure that they they're uh being followed to completion and the grants
and anything else will go through Chief Shaw and if to go up the ladder for any consultation he would he would communicate to her and she could give feedback but through him so that none of
the employees would be impacted directly through her decision- making or because uh Chief Shaw right now really have the we need to understand let them understand that he actually have the power at this time. But Miss Cardi is
actually making sure she sees those projects through and these grant application the deadlines are met which uh if she's not there where would Chief Shaw get that information from and she'll be on leave
without with pay. So I agree with Commissioner Borne on that capacity. >> And and two as well, you we got a lot of other things going with with our water situation, the water plant. We got that major thing going and her being out that
would be a major deal. We got other thing going on with the airport situation. So we got all these different things. with her being out, these things would not be moving properly and and these things will have some major implications on the city if they're not
done. So, we need to be very careful how we handle this whole situation because we got some stuff that's cooking in the pot that we need to be attending to. >> And that's why we have good employees that are doing that. And that's why we would have Chief Shaw as the acting assistant city manager. they would go to
him in the interim until we get through this. That's the whole point. Um I'm he can gi good at gathering information. So is Chief Shore. Those folks are quite competent in those different departments
and they can and could go to Chief Shore in the interim until we get through this process. Um I I I trust employees too that they know what they're doing and um there are people who I don't not you know grant writing whatever we're talking about project management
um reclamation water plant all of those things and they can go directly to Chief Shaw and give the same information they would give to Miss Cotti >> question though she had some things in her emails that she was dealing with with Florida Rural Water Protection
Agency all of those different entities as well as other things. Uh, mayor, so those are things that she was communicating with the commission and those entities. Chief Shaw, are you familiar with any of that stuff that we
>> I'm just asking. I mean, are you intimately >> um, >> could you correct me? >> This is not about Chief Shaw. No, no, not just just a question because the mayor is asking the mayor is asking that other staff can I mean that Chief Shaw
can do this without her being in in play. That's my concern. >> Go ahead, Commissioner D. >> So, so I will tell you this is what I'm leaning towards. If Miss Cardi is going to continue working, I would like for
the working to be remote. That's what I was suggesting. So there is something called transitioning. So Miss Cardi would have to provide the information so that Chief Shaw if he's
in that position will have to continue the work. We Miss Cardi has been h she's had some personal items things going on and she's been out of the office for a while and I think it's going it's continuing. So what I'm saying is
obviously the city is still running strong and work is still being done and so so working remotely with Chief Shaw here acting and Miss
Cardi would have to document how she is addressing um her plan to address these items. I think we need to lay it out specifically and then expect >> and she's going to tell well the items are >> the items are here but I think
>> what I am concerned and I don't know how we can address is the actions that have been taken against specific employees that cannot be taken back. I mean, you can't fix that. And that that's just that's some of what I'm
saying is not able to be fixed um in a way that is productive unless you generally speaking, I will be honest. Generally speaking, and so that is my
concern, which is why I'm a proponent of working remotely. I think that we will make more get more done because of these situations and how they've impacted staff
than if Miss Carter was in the office. >> I that's my 30-day cure period >> and we specifically these items and how to move forward and we need to lay that out. Um, but I agree and that's why I was suggesting a paid leave. I was going
to s suggest remote because it makes the most sense at this point. If everybody feels or has a concern about her being on a miss being on a paid leave and not working, we there's plenty of things she can do remotely. As as Miss as Commissioner Davis said, she has had
family things to address and she's been out of town and out of the office and that's understandable. But the city has gone on and the city will go on regardless of what happens to anybody. Uh we want it to go on. We want people to be able to deal with the issues day
by day and the city to still operate as it will. Commissioner Gamble, any comments? >> It appears that um there's opportunity to move forward.
However, I want us as the policy makers and the decision makers to be ready to face whatever it is that we have to be faced. And we're going to have to make some tough decisions because we have not given anybody if this decision was to be made the
courtesy of having a curing period, a transition period, or no other period. It was either they worked for the city or they didn't. They were terminated. So be mindful of what it is that we're setting up because again there are a lot of things
that have been allegated and I'm still stuck on the fact that this is round two of grievances. I think I agree as well. >> And it's round two of grievances with more than one employee
being the person that filed the grievance. This is round two. There's nothing that could be implemented that was not implemented from the last grievance. The classes
they were already taken. So you can't stand, you can't reallocate her to classes for classroom, I mean for for work hustle environment. So again, be mindful of what it is that we're setting up. And I'm not going for or against, but I just want us to have
complete transparency about the process that we're setting up because the process that we set up for this is going to literally be the blueprint of how we move forward in the future. And we have been a proponent of making
sure that process, policies, and procedures. And of course, we've never been to this position, but again, we have not given any other city manager the courtesy to cure what has been done.
>> And and that's my question. Was curing in the this is my first contract. We never had that before in the previous in the in the past they just was terminated uh for whatever and
that was it >> right >> but this is the first time we've been here and I think you know uh the curing processes in this >> so so commissioner I would think that's the difference
>> yes >> would is that what you're mentioning I just want clarity My statement was to put out as we move forward be mindful of what it is because it's been stated there are some things that are incurable.
>> So for those things that are incurable how can she cure something that's she can't unring a bell. I think we all that. >> And so not being able to unring a bell, what guidance are we given?
>> Because again, tonight when we move or when we leave here, if clear guidance has to be given, we have to give it. My intentions on wanting to meet was to come up and discuss the possibilities of how do we move forth in the event and
then bring Miss Cardi into this conversation. Because again, we're going back to where we were when she was put on administrative leave without the due process or put on administrative leave without the consensus of the entire
commission. We brought her back in that time frame. Again, this is why it appears that we seem to be dysfunctional to a certain extent. And I say this, no, no, no, no, no. Let me let me let me No, no, no. I'm I'm I'm I'm going somewhere. In my statement,
>> in the time frame that Miss Cardi was put on the probation, she came back. There should have been the steps of once this investigation was concluded of how or in the direction of where we would have wanted to go. That was not put into
place. So a lot of what we do is we come when something happens and I say it all the time in the commission meetings, we talk about it when it's hot, but when it's not, we no longer talk about it. So we didn't talk about anything regarding the transition or we didn't talk about
any of that from the time Miss Cardi came back until the time we got the conclusion of the investigation. So now here we are. We're trying to put a plan together in a meeting and this is the only form that we can do it.
However, again, to me, it appears to be a little bit backwards. It appears to be backwards because we heard what Miss Cardi had to say. Now, we're going to put her in a position or we're going to put our staff still in a position that when we walk
away from this meeting, it's still not a clearcut direction of how this process is going to look. What is the cure process? How does that look? How long is she going to be on administrative leave remotely? How because we have policy
with regards to remote work. So, again, how does all of this look? How does this setup look? >> And I think we couldn't plan for or come up with some direction until we had the completed investigation
and what the outcomes of that were first. >> Point miss, that's not what my statement. >> No, but let me let me finish. >> No, it was my statement, mayor. So, I want to make sure that as we move forth that clear. >> Go ahead. What I'm saying is again when we came into this meeting, we came into
this meeting about the investigation. We came into this meeting, we heard Miss Cardi, I'm just saying the process of what we're talking about, of course, it was needed, but as far as the direction, we are talking about a cure process. How can you cure something? And that's the
that's what you got to stand on. You can't unccure something. So, are we wasting taxpayers dollars? Are we doing So, that's the that's what I'm talking about. It's it's it's those kind of things that had not been taken in consideration. It what makes it so
specific about this time and not a cure process for the last time? What's the difference? >> I I don't know. But I Well, one I don't think it got to this level. I I don't know and I I may be wrong.
I just wanted to say that I believe there I am offering a plan for the cure period. And so let me state what I'm saying. >> Remote leave, I mean remote working,
>> remote working with Chief Shaw, acting assistant city manager. And um the 30-day cure period begins today. And in that cure period, Miss Cardi has
to tell us what she's going to do to address these deficiencies. >> And I want I want to see documentation about the causes you've already taken. >> Okay. Okay. I'm just saying that that's what So I don't know if that answers your question, but I don't want to
answer anymore because the onus is on Miss Cardi to to address um Commissioner. And so that's that's what I'm offering. And um I don't believe we had the opportunity to do something prior because
I personally was waiting for the results of the investigation. I will say I'm offering this based on the way I've interpreted Miss Carter's response to this. I I'm I'm only speaking for myself. >> I get it. But it can't start today
because what we coming up with is not in writing. >> Well, that's why we have to put everything in writing, which is basically what our expectations are. >> It will then it will be 30 days will start from the day it's in writing. Then that's what I was just asking for the
details. I'm just putting out here what I'm immenable to. We need to just make it compliant. >> Go ahead, Commissioner Jones. >> Sorry. Um, I had a question.
It It's going to sound harsh, but it's a logical question that I want to put out. Don't have no bearing on which way I'm feeling right now. What if
We were going to decide to terminate Miss Cardi and we just went out another 30 days of that a month of pay for her at that position
when we knew on this night that's the action that we were going to take individually. Of course, we don't we don't know what an individual is thinking. Um, but this is the only time that we get to speak on the possibilities of
let's go from termination to a suspension without pay to a action plan. But I think that I've well I've been hearing at least three commissioners said they understand
that it has been an allegations or allegations that cannot be cured in 30 days. So if you know that going in, if we know it going in, is it irresponsible for us to even
not go ahead and and and and and make a vote if that is not on the table, go forward. But if that's on the table, it need to be made move tonight. >> I actually agree with Commissioner
Jones. >> I got a question though. I got a question. So if that was part of the plan and was it's in the contract and it's on the plan to u have a a curable
process and you move in a different direction. Where does that put the city? in a lawsuit. Maybe
that's a question for legal. I'm just saying if if we got something already and if the whole process been jacked up from the beginning. Okay. So, I'm just I'm just going to put this out there.
You put on paid leave prior to all commissioners even moving forward to do this whole thing. Then you bring them back and then now we're here with this process and it's got something there that's giving guidance and you're going
to do something different from that. >> Um to read section five termination and severance pays fee and I'm just going to read it so everybody's clear. The city manager shall not be entitled to severance benefits described in section 5B above during her first six months 188
days of employment or if she is convicted of please no contest to or receives a withhold of adjudication for a felony or misdemeanor crime involving moral turpitude or dishonesty or she acts with mispence or malfeases or otherwise is guilty this is the piece
otherwise is guilty of misconduct which constitutes conduct demonstrating disregard of the city's interests a violation disregard of standards of behavior to which the city has a right to expect of the city manager. Um, and that was the sentence to read in terms
of whether termination is valid or not. I'm just reading it. >> Has she been she been in the court or something? Because it basically allegations it was allegations made by staff and then also Miss Card's counter with her
statements that we never heard. So you got two opposing um and she agreed to some of the things and some of the things she did she she did not. So So the things that she did not agree with are we are you saying
that she's guilty without actually knowing? I'm not saying I'm saying substantial disregard of the city's interests or of the city's manager's duties and obligations which is to be a role model to all employees to practice practice this high standard of ethics to
not take advantage of her role in power perceived or otherwise to intimidate staff which it is. If you ask staff to do something they could easily assume that they have no choice or intimidated because she is their highest supervisor.
So the question that's why I'm reading that statement now. I'm just reading it because it's in the contract. I'm not a jury. I'm not deciding. I'm reading something that's in the contract. Commissioner Ba based on those the things she admitted she did. >> I just think historically we can go back
on some other things that really some serious stuff has happened here and we haven't >> we're talking about here and now. >> We can't. We're here and now. >> And I'm just reading the contract. >> We need to be fair. We need to be fair with this whole process.
>> No, no, he what? We cannot discuss other situations. We're here and now. >> I know. We need to be fair. >> And I'm just reading an excerpt from the contract. >> Well, what I'm saying is we had something to go on, but we we we we we're retracting from what was written
and stated. >> We didn't vote on anything at this point. We are discussing, >> but you were heading out of direction. >> Oh, I was offering that as a viable option. Right. And and that's it. >> And I still am. There's just not a motion. Yeah. Because I want to hear from you.
>> And I am just reading another section of the contract so everybody is aware what it says. That's all I'm making judgment either. >> While I do agree with Commissioner Jones, I do believe it's in the best interest of the city to offer 30 days of
cure. >> Second. >> That Wait a minute. I thought she was making a move. >> I will call for the vote. >> Yeah, I'm just saying I do think we do need to do that not only in the best interest of the city, but for due process for Miss um Cardi to make sure
we're fulfilling our contractual obligations and to decrease liability. Now, what I'm not sure about and where I've gone with that is what that 30-day cure looks like. To Commissioner Campbell's point, I I don't know and I'm
open to um I've I've offered the work remotely, but um I'm open, but I'm just saying I'm definitely immenable to moving down the path of the 30-day cure period. >> I'm open to that, too. And I think we
have to be very careful and spell out what that expectation is in writing for that cure to start so that everybody's on the same page, same playing field, and everybody's clear where we're going because we haven't always been consistent about that. We do have a couple of folks for public comment. Miss
Kitchens, >> hold on before you go to public comment. >> Okay, go one minute. Go ahead, Jones. >> I because we I know we probably time is well spent. However,
we don't get to talk about this again. When we come back, we're going to come back with these more questions because we can't go and ask Miss Carter this on the on the uh in the parking lot. We can't go talk to uh the attorney. The
attorney, the attorney basically did what the last attorney did, handed his report and that's it. That's his facts finding. the facts that we need to nail down tonight. Is there any gray areas or any questions
that need to be asked by Mrs. Cardi? There was some some I think there's some misses in there and I don't want to seem like I'm a I'm I'm I'm the guy that's at at her and I I wanted to give her an opportunity to
to clarify where I had a gray area and that was did you know they was to your house what time of day and that question wasn't answered and to me Um, that's that
that's still a gray area, but I know who goes to my house and who will be in my house. That's number one. Commissioner Campbell even made a statement. If we know we're going to head in a direction, I mean, you can let your cousin be your
guide, but I just want the I just want the I want to I want to make sure we we we ask all the pertinent questions and we know the answers because in in 30 days, we going to be we going to be back with the same set of facts in front of us. They're not going
to change. And as far as the and and and just just ask yourself while on this diet and and I know you say things have changed, Commissioner Borum, but while on his diet tonight, you ask yourself,
go through all the infractions and say, "Is this curable?" Yes. Is this curable? Is this If it's If it is, you got more things that you can cure. and you have some if you have things that are not
curable, you got a problem. That's how I see it. If I'm wrong, I need legal to give advice to all of us at this point because, you know, I sometimes I feel we really need legal.
I'm just being honest. Legal is not present. And this would mean illegal, but it seems as if we get in his mind and it be, "Oh, by the way, this is the law that we found to protect
so and so." Well, you should we should have known this before we came to this meeting tonight. We should known that information prior to tonight. But we have to discuss it and legal do have to be in the mix. you and I'm tired of coming to these meetings or attending
these meetings and we get facts dropped on our in our emails right before we going to meet and address something like Commissioner Campbell said it does make us look dysfunctional
that need to stop because the attorney answers to who right now she answers to the city manager We can't even tell the attorney what to do. Think about it. So, we need to
really kind of like look at this thing at a with a broader brush and I I I challenge all the commissioners to sit back and go down the list of allegations and see if all
of them are curable or do we have some that you can't go back and fix. I challenge you all. And that's that's my take on it at this point. Make we don't make an action, make an
action, whatever the action be, but we could do that tonight. And so that's what I would like to see. If it's going to be a a leave without pay for 30 days, if it's gonna be whatever it's going to be, whenever that person makes the motion,
please let's consider the facts. Thank you. >> Thank you, Miss Kitchens. >> Al Kitchens, Palaca, Florida. We have indeed been in this situation with Mr. Troyville. when he was here, every staff member in the city of Pala, all 185 or
so, said it was a toxic workplace. You come into city hall and the staff sitting at their desks and crying. You look like you're walking into prison. It was gloomy and it was sad and it was horrible. The the the staff brought that to you. Not all of you, because only two of you were here at the time. However, this has
gone on before. Mr. Deville was given leave. Basically, nothing happened to him. When he actually broke the law by negotiating a contract you were supposed to negotiate and paying a check over $25,000, then you terminated him. You did not give him the kind of treatment you're giving Miss Cardi. Now, unless
she is Dr. Jackekal and Mrs. Hyde, I know Miss Cardi. She is my neighbor. She is my friend. I've dealt with her as city manager. I've dealt with her as a friend. I've dealt with her as a Christian who prayed for a sick friend of mine. And again, unless she has a really bad side personnel and nobody's
seen, she's not a bad person. Is this curable? The heck it is. You have a contract with EAP. That's your psychological services. Send your city employees, all of them, to psychological health and have them get help. If they are so thin skinned that they get upset
talking about ethnicity and they think that's a slide on them or they're upset about that, then they re seriously need help. They don't know what real trouble is. I worked under a supervisor who lined up the staff every morning. He cussed us out, told us we were stupid, didn't know what we were doing. He if we
had a medical issue, he made us work to hurt it. One lady had a bad back. He forced her to stand up when she filed in cards back, hoping she he'd force her to be f to resign. I have allergies to dust. He forced me to dust file cabinets. And that was just some of the
things he did. And we didn't do anything about it. We tried to appeal it. We had no way to appeal it. property appraisers employees. Eventually he left. That is real persecution. But just because you these days I have a problem. People got they have their feelings on their shoulder. If I look at
you wrong, you think I'm mad at you. I'm not mad at you. I may have something in my eye or something. But people have their feelings on their shoulders. They get the least little thing because their mama said they're great and they have no problem. You can't tell them no. They get upset over everything. I agree with employees if they're being seriously injured or damaged. this kind of thing,
a little comment. Of course, it could be cured and you you have probably you have probably 185 employees. You did it one time, maybe you've done 179, three of them came up and spoke. That's 2%. Then after the then after the at the investigating return attorney asked the
people, then others came through with something. That's a power of suggestion and all probability. But the bottom line is here's the cure. table this decision till the October 28th meeting. Then give her the 30 days curable. Let her stay on
the job working with pay under the supervision of Mr. Shaw. Make sure that Mr. Shaw finds out Chief Shaw. Make sure that no employees deal with her. What we have here generally is a horrible, horrible miscommunication. Period. Miscommunication with the staff, with
the city manager. There's a horrible miscommunication. I will close with this. her civil rights under the US Constitution have been violated. You have the right to face your accuser in a court of law. She didn't know who her accusers were and didn't know what the allegations were until today. Don't do not terminate her. Just let it continue
to the 28th and then give her the 30-day curable and take it from there. Thank you. Wendelyn Asia >> Wendelyn Asia post office box 20 93 Palaka Florida commissioners I don't know where someone told you that you
could not meet in a workshop setting which the information that suggestion that uh Commissioner Campbell said is first of all ditto of everything that she said I won't have to repeat it. But to
um go with your suggestion, I've got notes here. Um Commissioner to me so that you can come up with three alternate plans and hopefully to include
one in a policy format for commissioners so that they know do not ask our employees to do anything. Okay, take for instance, Commissioner K, how do you say your last name? Korea. >> Kareah.
>> Koreah. >> If you were leaving commission meeting, no. If you were leaving a workshop and your car wouldn't start and a city employee asked if you needed
some help, what would your reply be? It would honestly be I appreciate the offer but I have a friend or I will call my mechanic or I'll call AAA or whatever the case. >> Now take the same situation if it was
dark. >> That's true. >> So they're going to change you. >> Yeah. There going to be some exceptions, but what I gathered that there have been some repetitive issues that were broken
that didn't get fixed previously. The 30 days cannot go into effect until she has received them. and it needs to be outlined in detail
and whatever those things are, you need to make sure that it's included in your policy so you don't have to waver if it comes up again. The other thing for uh Miss Cardi,
there needs to be an employee morale survey so that you can glean the people that if they have something that they would say they would not be identified so that you can increase the
employee morale. It's time for the city of Palaca to put everything on the table, face it, deal with it so that the city can come together. You don't need
anybody else coming out to tell you what to do. People will tell you what they're upset with. What are you going to do then? Thank you. >> Thank you. Um, Alan Sheffield, >> Alan Sheffield, Pala, Florida. Um, I
don't envy your position, but as a citizen, and I thank you for laying out the concerns in terms of stability for this city, looking out for the welfare of employees and due process.
um because that that is critical and I'm I'm asking right now I'm thinking about myself as someone living in this city and the turmoil that it's gone through and I'll honestly say this nothing nothing personal I wasn't in favor of her coming on board in terms of city
manager given we had a great person in that chair over there and we really needed to complement that with this and so that transition you trusted her to move from and it sounds like what what has happened is that she came over into
an executive position with a supervisor mentality thinking that you can interact with those same people you used to interact with in somewhat of the same way. That's a rookie mistake. And I don't believe
personally, and I'm speaking as a citizen here, that that's all on her. Given where we were taking her from and putting her here, because she had shined so so brightly, there needed to be
certain things that we did from a commissioner as your employee, but then certain things you would take on. There needs to be some coaching. Now, initial executives, when I was moving up in the ranks in and in in a firm, when you were getting to this next position, you had
coaching assigned to you, getting you ready to lead and deal with the the things you were going to have to do that were totally new because there is there is what they were saying here. Because of your position, because of that title,
you can look a certain way, speak a certain way, and people are going to feel pressured. You've got to understand that. But I don't put this all on her. And I don't feel like we should turn the city upside down again because where it looks like you're going is dealing with
we're talking too much about this curable. And I believe all things are curable. Even though you can't unring a bell, there is forgiveness and reconciliation no matter what has been done. And if our employees don't have a
thick enough skin to understand that someone, even your boss, can make a grave mistake against you and that you have an opportunity to reconcile, that should be the first opportunity, not what I I believe we're talking about
doing in another 30 days. So, I would ask that we would take a step back and think about those three things and pick up and do some things. You've got to do some things and we've got to do some things in order to get
this place situated so we can go forward without turn turmoil once again. >> Thank you. Anybody else here for public comment? Come up. Miss Miss Garris.
>> Thank you. Pam Garris, Palka, Florida. I live in the city limits. I know Miss Cardi. I think she's a wonderful person. She's not perfect neither. None of us are. But for the grace of God go I I could have made a mistake she made.
My concern is how this investigation was done so that her due process, the employees due process was done in a very systematic and legal standard. In other words, how
did this investigator conduct it? You know, people can tell stories, tell things to embellish. Were they put under a lie detector? If somebody accused me of things or I was going to lose my job, I would want to know that they were telling the truth
and to the best of the scientific ability and police standards or whatever that we could pretty much be assured. And those tests are pretty accurate. They can tell when people are lying. And if I was going to lose my job, I would
want to know. I had due process and we could be pretty sure who was telling the truth and who was embellishing the truth to their advantage because people, not everybody's nice. Some people just want to get rid of you because they want some fresh meat on the
the the hanger. And that is the worst part of human nature. But it does exist. It's evil. There is evil in the world. And we have to protect everybody's rights because then you get into what he's talking about liability. Then you got lawyers,
then you got lots of big bills. And and like Algra said, people, you need some team building. Maybe you need to do some psychological whatever is the thing now with employees to make them feel like they their
thoughts are important and whatever. And you may discern some of them are not on an even keel and you can't take everything they say seriously. There are people, you know, every every workplace has some problems. I taught school. You
have kids with problems in a classroom and PE and adults are just little kids that have grown up. Some of them still have problems. So all those things need to be taken in account so that her due process, her rights, and their rights are protected.
So, I'd like to know how this investigative process takes place. What what techniques and processes do they employ because that is where it starts. You're making decisions on things we don't even know if they're valid.
>> That's my concern. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And and I got a Can I comment? I got a comment. May I got a comment? Can I comment? >> Are you asking to respond? Yeah. No, not respond, but I just got a comment.
>> Go ahead. >> It's okay. >> Yes. Go ahead. >> Thanks. Yeah, but here here's what you got. And there and there's cultural differences as well. So, here's what we have. And not saying that um because the the the first I've ever heard um you
know, any allegations came forward. It came during bail and also coming during Miss Cardi. So, um, and I do know Commissioner Jones had mentioned that one time before when we went off and we did a team building exercise that, you know, in terms of cultural differences
and learning how, you know, everybody work together as it relates to different things, how you may offend somebody in a way if you maybe even hug somebody or you make make a statement or whatever.
It could be a word, it could be your tone, it could be any of those things. And I know there are some allegations made about how Commissioner Jones even he speaks strongly. He speak he speak loudly. He speak you know and so sometime people were saying that that
was offensive. And so we had conversations about those type things in the team building session. That was some of the things that came back. And so I think we need to continue those things and and and make sure that the
people that we have working for the for the city that everybody operate with integrity and have morals and values. But no matter what, whether you're on the commission level, staff level, or
just community as a whole, please try to do everything decent in order. And don't manufacture nothing on on anybody regardless what no matter what level you're on. And and and we want to make sure that we we do things
decently in order and in good spirits. Any additional comments? We need to move forward in some fashion. >> We need a motion, a recommendation. >> I'll make a recommendation. >> Sleepy.
First of all, I want to thank the citizens for the public comments. It was great. Um, it sounds like from experience. Um, you all were speaking So here here's what I'm going to recommend. I am going to recommend that we restore
Miss Cardi to her position as city manager with the following items. And I'm not making a motion yet because I really want us to make this complete. um
that of course the curing period to address the items in the report, the allegations, you know, or to to correct them and establish those relationships, whatever that looks like. Um so that's
number one. Um when we she gets this in writing to respond with her plan to address these items. Uh, number two, to identify and activate working with a an
experienced um, >> city manager, retired or resource from Florida League of Cities um, or the likes, um, or from the professional organization for city managers, where you choose, it's
um, to identify that coach within the next 30 days. um to work with her to build up her skill set um to schedule employee and employee
workshop to build morale and increase employee relations. And here's one I'd like to see, and I have expressed this several times, but I'd like for the city to hire an
experienced HR director or contract with a HR director, someone who has the HR skill set that I believe we're lacking. Um, and I'm not anything against our HR
manager, but there's a higher level skill set that's needed from a strategic perspective that for the city and I think that's just a gap. And I believe the city has grown, our staff has grown,
we're becoming more um um complicated, especially with these um workplace situations. And I think we need someone who can address those from a higher level in working. Um so that's what I
have so far. >> Okay. Um, hi. I I understand and and this is not a reflection on our current HR director, but HR department rather, but >> if that person is still reporting to the city manager, it does still present a
precarious situation sometimes and they will be because I try to that's the direction that we have. So, you know, again, there's a limit to what they will feel comfortable doing. And when you say restored to position, what
does that mean? Does that mean here physically? >> Okay. Now, I'm just clarifying >> an opportunity to do the job with these supports that I'm mentioning. >> Okay. And so there'd be no acting assistant city manager at that point. Who's going to give direction to staff
employees during this period? >> Miss Cardi, I I mean, I don't know. I'm open. I haven't addressed that for clarification. That's why I didn't make it in the form of a motion because I really want to have the I I I don't know what I don't know.
>> Okay. And I I personally am going to suggest that that's fine to bring her back when she has a she is back, but to still if Chief Sher is willing to have him in that position so employees report directly to him and she's still not having those interactions till we have
all of this information in place what her plan is for this cure. you know, I'm just saying rather as a safeguard for her as well as employees. Um, if that is what you're suggesting in terms of return, what's your thoughts, Commissioner Campbell or Commissioner
>> B? I'm just trying to get us somewhere. I I think it'll um like like Commissioner Davis said, I mean, basically it'll be basically a full restore because again u u Miss Carter did move from the finance director position over to the CM and um so I
think just restoring that because I don't even think that that the temporary period for to continue that process the way it's currently set now, I don't know if you're going to get much. I think we need to just um put some um strict
deadlines on getting that information back so we can move forward in a quicker quicker manner so that we can get this stuff underway and and you know all the things that Commissioner Davis identified. I think that will help in that regard. Um because if we continue
that that same path that we're going to be limping along, um we still got some things in place that we could use, some tools that we can use to make sure that the employees are protected. >> Uh okay. I I still have concerns about that. I'll just say that about the
protection of the employees. And just to clarify for people that ask that question, the investigation was conducted by a law firm um external. So, and that this is what they do. So, they know what they're doing. They know the law. So everything was above board and there was more than three employees that
filed a complaint. There were several and so just to clarify that. So it's not isolated to only a few people that could be perceived as bitter if one wanted to take that kind of train of thought. It's actually several employees um that have
confile concerns and we've had employees leave as a result too. Um so to again keep the city going I will say I'm immenable to Chief Shaw remaining in place for the period and to assess that with that >> second I'm I'm in agreement. I don't
know Commissioner Cameron and Commissioner Jones but I am too. So >> okay thank you Commissioner Campbell. What are your thoughts if any round? >> Yeah I said enough. >> Commissioner Jones
any >> I didn't hear Commissioner Campbell. What did he say? You said enough. >> I feel the same way. Um yeah, I do. Um the the thought is already put out, but
I sounded like you you and the com uh Commissioner Davis was saying two different things and I and help me understand. So, Commissioner Davis, are you talking about um restoring
Miss Card's position to city manager and and that'll be the end of it? >> No. And and I did say restore. And after hearing um what the mayor was asking, I
am also uh amanable to Chief Shaw remaining as the assistant um acting city manager with staff direct reporting to him and you know working together with Miss Cardi.
Does that answer your question? >> For the period of >> for for the 30 for the cure period. Thank you. for the period the cure period which will begin the day that we give the written um plan >> direction
>> direction yes for and after those 30 days according to the process we'll come back we'll assess where we are based on the direction given her plan and the outcomes and provide additional
direction at that time >> okay commissioner >> yes And and one clarity point uh um that was offered up that we need to you know make make a policy make the policy so that it is policy and we are
to follow that so it wouldn't you know so we could probably do a I don't know we have to do a not even but I don't know when we can make the make the policy next meeting or have to call the to make sure that we make the policy so
that when we Right. The written whatever that is followed in that regard and that's what was offered up. I'm just thinking if that's not the case then can you repeat what you just can you repeat it? >> No. No, you can't come back up. >> Yeah.
>> If I asked her, but >> you can ask from the minutes for it to be repeated. >> I if I asked if I if I asked her because again that was something. Yeah, you I can ask. Um Yeah. Can you please come up and repeat that? Um, thank you.
>> Is that what she's saying? >> I was I know what she was talking about, but I >> that's not that's that's not right. >> No, you're not supposed to. No, what was state what she's listing is written direct requirements to be given directly
to the city manager. But you take those same policies and you all create a policy for your city managers of all future ones so that they don't these violations and it's included in their contract so that they know and that's
what he's saying. They're two different. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you to say something. I have an issue with creating a policy that was not in place at the time of the alleged allegations
or offenses. Even if that was to be the case, if we the commission would have to come up with the policy or had work with staff to approve the policy, which further pushes
>> because it has to come before the commission. It has to be read or it has to be done. I'm just I get it, Miss Asia. Let me let me let me talk it out. When we say policy, we have to be mindful Another concern that I have and I want just to
make clarity if this is going to potentially be a motion direction was given previously with regards to communication. How someone perceives
something is not the commission's fault. when direction was given to my understanding via an email and via meetings. At what point are we no longer going to
accept that was my interpretation? because we hear that a lot and that alone has put us in some difficult situations because of it being someone's perception instead of seeking clarity.
Another concern that I have is, and I'm just putting this all out there because >> it's not I'm I'm I'm really battling with this decision because again, what we're setting is going to set the
tone for future references. Are we going to risk the fact of more employees leaving the city um because of a decision that we made here tonight or not? Um
the curing process is still isn't clear to me because again I don't see it. It's not clear to me. And then again, what are we going to do in the meantime as a commission with regards to this? Because
again, when we come back, I don't see it being no different from tonight. We're coming. We're getting information. >> So, what's the process from there? Is it going to be a continuation of what this is? Is going to be a At the end of the day, decisions have to be made. They're
not always they're not always as easy. But again, we have to make some decisions. And it's it still does not what we're talking about still does not give guidelines or
direction as a commission on what are we going to meet in the interimm and come up with um how if these things are not met within that 30-day time frame because again we can't give her direction unless we meet again.
And those are the things that we're talking about and those are the opportunities that we've missed previously. So again when we leave here tonight we got a recommendation which okay but from the commission standpoint
what are what deadlines or guidelines are we going to follow so that when we come back after this 30 day well we can't even in the time frame of coming up what that cure process looks like because again we have to meet we have to be on one accord okay it has to go in
writing say for instance it goes in writing um Monday boom boom okay So from that day 30 days when we come back once that 30 days is done what does the process looks like? What does that process look like? Are we coming back to
give or are we in that time frame? Could we have met to come up with the three options that we will present that night or that's that's what I'm struggling with. >> I don't think we can wait 30 days. I mean I I think the period is 30 days but I don't think we as a commission can
wait 30 days to come back. And we have not had that discussion. So with the recommendation, there has to be how do we move forward. >> No, I agree. I agree. But I I don't think we could wait the full 30 days. We would have to come back prior to that and take and look at the process and see
how things are going, frankly. >> And that's what that's what I'm that's what my whole statement was referencing. How does it look moving forward? We have the recommendation, but how does it look from our perspective? >> Okay.
So, I think this leads to a a a gross miss on the commission's part, and I'm going to um say it. Yeah. And so, when we hired Miss Cardi, one of the things we talked about that the commission has
never done is evaluating our >> city managers. And so the reason I am backtracking to say and taking into consideration the comments is because we have neglected yet again. However, when
I say we, I'm talking commission as a whole. One of the things I've done and I have reached out to HR and I got direction. I don't know if it came to the rest of commission because I can't know that. >> It did. It did. >> But okay. So I got direction. We got
direction. We got dates. I did ask for the survey to go to her direct reports. We got those back. I reviewed the survey with you, Miss Cardi. Miss Cardi self evaluated. I I evaluated and then we got into these
dates and I didn't give it to her because the date is October 30th. So, I have it ready to do her evaluation >> and I gave feedback. We talked about some things that were going to be corrected, but we didn't do it as a whole. So, that's one of the issues that
we have when we're saying we're not giving her things in writing. So, that's one. So, I'm I'm thinking about everything that's been said here tonight. So, we owe it I think to go back and we need to course correct and give the opportunity. But to your point,
Commissioner Campbell, with those recommendations I made, some additional information needs to be added. And the things you're asking is the information I'm asking, which is why I haven't made a motion yet because my recommendation is not inco is not complete. And it is I
think the next step that we need to do if we accept this is then to have a workshop to go get this documented >> or is that right? Or what? Okay. Okay. If it's not, I'm giving No, no, I'm giving you the direction because as a workshop, no official action can be
taken. >> Correct. But we can workshop within the next few days and we got a meeting next Thursday. >> We do have a meeting next Thursday. >> Okay. So, I'm just trying to think how I'm thinking through this. And so, if if we could workshop before that meeting and have our document at least in the
input to it, get that written up. We have a meeting next Thursday. that information can be given, action can be taken and once that written the 30-day clock starts to these recommendations after 30 days we need to schedule if
it's not coinciding with a planned meeting a called meeting and give recommendation and I think what should happen in that meeting is an assessment to understand these are the this is what we said this is was her plan did she
accomplish it what are those outcomes because we may have to send an evaluation to or um I'm sorry survey to her direct employees again. We got to get some kind of feedback to consider with all of that if we want to have a complete thing and then we're going to
determine did she do it? If she did she get she continues employment do we take her off these restrictions? If she didn't, according to this, there's grounds for termination. And so, we have a decision to make at that point, which
I think is a definitive go forward plan. Does that answer your question? Okay. >> Mayor, >> go ahead, Commissioner Jones. Um, I asked the question earlier
addressed to the attorney and about getting information in late and how you know when it come down down to us to make these decisions, the legality of such. Um, you told us about Mrs. Carter's
rights and I understand that's your direct report. I I asked it maybe wasn't clear enough of all the allegations
and even Mrs. Card's rebuttal to such. Is there an allegation that occurred rather perceived
or actual factual uh act that was committed and it's a violation of policy city policy that leads to termination as our city attorney.
Could that be presented in this fight findings uh meeting tonight? And if so, I would like for you to to point it out, yay or nay. That's important because we won't be
able to talk to you in this capacity as well where all of the commissioners get the same information. and I would like to know that before making another comment. >> Okay. And my apologies for not answering earlier when you were referring to the
attorney. I thought you were referring to the attorney that had conducted the investigation and was talking with the employees. And I'm not quite sure I understand your question. If if you don't mind rephrasing it so I can answer it properly.
>> Okay. There's about, as I understand it, nine allegations that we went through earlier and that's on the investigative finding. We just had Miss Cardi revolt or answer to them.
uh some I tried to get facts on and allegation of whether whether it looked like it was a violation or whether it was a actually violation of city policy.
Um and if that if those acts >> Let me answer that. Yes. >> Yes. What >> the allegations constituted violations? the allegations that were presented in the investigative report and the
underlying complaints that the investigator examined would constitute violations of city policy. And those city policies are thoroughly delineated in the first couple of pages of the report. >> And the second part of that half of that
question was are there were there any that because would be deemed a terminable terminatable offense.
>> Yes. >> Okay. So, in which th that offense of those offenses at this time and I heard Mr. Davis mention
the probationary period which all these things occurred during the probationary period as well. So during the probationary period and we just had this come up with the ex
city manager that seemed like a different set of rules apply. >> So let me address that. Um, this is the first time that we have had, to my knowledge, a city management employment
agreement that has this provision regarding the 30-day cure period. And I want to make it clear that the contract provides the city manager an opportunity to cure the deficiencies to the city
commission satisfaction. It doesn't require the city commission to formulate the cure. that that burden is on the city manager. So you should allow her that opportunity to address the deficiencies in a manner that she sees
fit and hopefully it will be to your s satisfaction. But I I want to make it clear that burden. Um but going back to your question, yes, there there were violations
in the uh there were allegations in the investigative report that do constitute um violations of not only the city policy uh but other
other issues under um in particular particular the the work of public employees on behalf of the city manager would constitute a clear ethical violation as the investigator noted
>> and that is clearly set forth in the investigative report right as I read. That's why I wanted the clarity of how we're getting to some of the statements that I heard. I just didn't understand it. But so I just wanted that clarity because we you
didn't answer in the first. I don't think we gave you the opportunity. So I wanted you to actually put that out there. So I mean the last question and I'm I'm done. So I think I asked and I said if the intent
was to terminate if it was to terminate, would that also include a 30-day right to cure? Because if there's a incurable infraction.
How would 30 days change that? >> Well, the way that the contract is drafted um does not contemplate that. There is the section five under the employment agreement as the mayor previously addressed, but that really
only pertains to severance. Um it doesn't pertain to the basis for termination. Section 5A of the contract really in this case does dictate that
the city must provide written notice of the circumstances giving rise to termination. The investigative report that was provided constitutes that written notice in terms of the time frame and the basis
but that is the paragraph that dictates the process by which we need to govern ourselves. Okay. So when we when we put Miss Cardi on a suspension,
what kind of notice was that? >> The contract does not contemplate a 30-day cure period or suspension or paid administrative leave. It only is triggered in the event that the city
commission is about to take a vote on termination. as set forth in the city charter. The previous grievance that Commissioner Campbell referenced back in March, Commissioner Davis is correct. We had
not reached the point or at least it wasn't readily ascertainable to me that you were about to consider termination. So this clause was not triggered at that time. >> If I may
>> go ahead, Commissioner Carol. So with regards to that particular investigation, I mean particular thing, we had a spokesperson from the commission that provided us with a recommendation. >> Do your recipient. So
>> the the reason I made reference to the first set of grievances is because if we take in consideration holistically this entire thing, there's a continuation of the same things that were addressed in
the previous grievances that are replicated in the current grievance. Hence the reason I asked if the recommendations that came as a result of that previous grievance was met because
those things should have addressed some of the allegations or addressed some of the things that are currently being talked about in the grievances that we're talking about today. So at what point, that's the only
reason I made mention of the previous grievance because again, we're providing an opportunity to cure what has been what appears to be a continuation of the same things.
And so this time I feel that we are putting a buffer in by putting Chief Shaw in that position because we're not fully allowing her to operate as city manager to determine if the same
behaviors will continue. So what really are we doing here? And that's the reason I've made so much commentary. Again, she if she can't interact with the staff, is she really
doing her job? >> Full estimation concern is not what you recommending. >> No. Um, no. I I said I said enough, but I'm sitting and I'm listening to the recommendation, but the reason I made reference to the clarity of what was
being given of why I made mention of the first grievance I get >> and my question was my initial recommendation was to fully restore her with reacting and then we had that. So I'm I'm >> have a problem with that. >> Well, my concern with that is the employees. I'm trying. Again, that was
one of our three issues and I am concerned about the employees. >> Let's bring some business. >> Yes, we do need to make a decision. Well, >> okay. >> I guess my question is will I need to
make several motions because I believe I need to make a motion for what we do tomorrow going forward or or if we don't do we carry on as we are. Um, so if we do nothing in terms of that tomorrow, Miss, we will continue with
what we're what we have with uh Miss Cardi as city manager with the exception of managing staff and Chief Shaw as the assistant city manager. So since that's what's in play right now,
do I need to do anything with that? If if I don't, would we carry on tomorrow as we are operating today? >> If we did nothing, if we made no decisions tonight, is that what you're saying >> in terms of that particular situation? I just want to know, do I need to state that we're going to >> Well, that that's why you're meeting
here today is to make that decision. >> So, here's why I'm asking because I know I need a motion. I want to make a motion for the commission to have a workshop to document the what is it called?
expectations during this 30-day cure period. Is that correct? >> Correct. During the cure period. So, we need to do that, >> right? Okay. So, I want to make sure >> and then I have do I need to make the recommendation
of the restoration and what those things are here or is that part of what we'll do in the workshop and then we'll adopt it at the next meeting. That's what I'm trying to essentially. So right now all I need to say is we need to have a workshop to identify what will happen
during the cure period >> and continue what's in place. Now that's the question or >> you have a meeting already scheduled for next Thursday October 23rd. You can add that to the agenda.
>> I can comment at two but well at 5:00 we have CRA don't no. Okay. So, I'm just So, the point I'm trying to make is when we get to next Thursday's meeting, I do want to add it to the agenda, but I want to also be prepared to take some action or or give some direction because we
can't Am I Can May may I have some direction on what we need to do right now? Anybody? Anybody? >> So, I I think if we're talking about laying out expectations, I I think even waiting till Thursday is probably a too long a period.
>> That's not That's not what I said. >> Okay. I'm sorry. And what is I'm going to I'm going to u make a motion for the commission to have a workshop to lay out the expectations before in preparation to be on the agenda for Thursday. It is do I need to
do that? Okay. Was it >> Yes, you would need to make a motion to have a special workshop. >> But we can't again if we have a workshop we can't approve we can't vote and approve on any of those things. We would have to wait till Thursday. >> Correct. >> Okay.
Well, but I'm concerned about that. You know, that's that's over a week out by the time we approve. We need to do something sooner than that. And so, if we need to have a special call meeting next week, not a workshop, to come up with these or we do it now, one or the other, and put it in writing or
whatever. But I don't think waiting for a week from Thursday, I just think that's too long. Go ahead, Commissioner Jones. Oh yeah, >> Madam Mayor, who called this meeting today? Special call meeting anyway, just information purposes.
>> I didn't hear all that. I'm so sorry. >> Who called a special call meeting today? >> I I believe I did and I believe everybody was contacted. >> Okay. Okay. >> I made contact with assistant chief and
be a meeting. So, I'm not going to allow her to be present. Me, too. >> Thank you. >> She was I did say that there needed to be a meeting. I did not say that Miss Cardi needed to be present for the meeting. I felt that there should have been a conversation of what we're trying
to do now should have been predetermined before. So, I want to go on the record to say I was one of the individuals that help or asked to call for this meeting. >> Well, thank you because I did too, but I and I believe it's under me. But yes, that's okay. But the the point is we
have we had to have some conversation about this. We couldn't procrastinate. >> Right. >> I I understand. I can appreciate that. But I would I would have the expectation that uh who actually initiated or it
take two. It takes two commissioners or a commissioner and a >> or it takes one mayor or two commissioners >> or two commissioners. I would expect that those they would have something to put on the on the floor for some action
tonight. So, if it was that important to have a meeting this soon, you know, I I expect some type of action tonight because we've been there almost three hours and I think that um nothing no information is going to change and whichever way it go it go.
But I think that, you know, we need to we need to go ahead and and and move this on out, whatever we're going to do. And and and if and if the person asked for and was granted a special call meeting,
they could make the motion of what we need to do. I know anybody anybody but me can make >> I think that that that the comment was is trying to force us into a position that doesn't necessarily need to be forced into why I respective
respectfully disagree with Commissioner Jones. The point of a meeting is to have or facilitate a conversation and dialogue that we cannot have individually amongst each other is to facilitate a dialogue to get the
thoughts. And Commissioner Jones, if I remember a lot. You say that often because information can be disseminated one way to one commissioner another way. So the meeting tonight was to facilitate a conversation and the dialogue so that
everyone would be able to get an understanding or put their thoughts out so that we can accumulate now. So that's why I respectfully disagree and I'm not going to be forced into a position or not be forced to make a motion that is
not agreeable among with myself first of all because again this is someone livelihood. Again, this is us taking into consideration. So, tonight's meeting is and I actually am and and Chief Shaw is when I reached out to him,
I said I feel that a conversation need to be had one so that Miss Cardi knows that we are taking this serious this matter serious. And my second one so that staff know that we're taking it because we talk about stuff when it's hot and when it's no longer hot, it's
put on the back burner until something happens again. Well, >> I I understand your position. So if uh
if you talk about another meeting what's going to change tonight in two or three more days that >> after after meeting for three hours the questions ask the questions now versus
having another three-hour meeting next week. Let's let's put the questions out. Let's get the the the decision of what we want to really do out tonight. That's what I'm saying. And that'll be fair to Miss Carter and the other uh employees
as well. You know, uh let's just I mean, if we decide one way or another, we're going to have a vote. So, the vote is going to be the vote. Either it's going to either going to pass or it's going to die. So nobody said what position they
really want right now, you know, but as far as me just to me and having conversation, this could be this was a meaningful conversation to me. I got a little more facts than just the paper reads, you know. Did are you getting what you need tonight or something else that you're
looking for? I think that's what we're trying to do to we're trying to um create a a motion that encompasses all of our discussion and that we can the majority of us can be comfortable with moving forward.
So if somebody would like to make a motion based on all of the discussion that would be just wonderful. >> Commissioner Davis made several motions and we we start motion, but she's put out a lot of ideas. >> Well, no, she made I mean, she put out
good ideas that we had agreed upon. Yeah. >> And u it keep changing. So, >> so I have my same I have my same recommendation. So, what I hear is that um in this motion, we need to include having a a called meeting because we
want to have this done before the next um commission meeting. Is that what I'm hearing? >> Correct. >> Yes. Yes. Okay. >> But I think we can spell out the majority of it in this motion so that it
can be put in writing so that in the interim there's some direction given. >> Okay. All right. >> So I move that we restore Miss Cardi to her position as city manager with the following stipulations.
Identify and actively work with an experienced city manager as a coach within the next 30 days. Schedule employee workshops with the HR department that will increase employee
morale and employee employer relations. complete um continue your training towards city manager certification through IC >> IMC
and >> um and that we meet. Oh, does this need to be a sep The meeting needs to be a separate motion, does it? Okay. And that we the
commission has a special called meeting on is uh Thursday at 5:00 p.m. Oh. Oh, no. We're I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, we said we wanted to do this before. I don't know. >> I'm pulling out the calendar. Pull out the calendar, please.
>> We're on the 15th. On Wednesday, are we talking 20th, 21st? Monday, Tuesday, and I'm trying to >> I'm good. Monday or Tuesday? Um, >> okay. So, Tuesday the 21st. >> Tuesday. >> Tuesday the 21st.
>> Commissioner um Campbell, is that something? >> I won't be in town. Um, >> you won't be in town on the 21st? >> On the 22nd? Um >> 21st. >> I won't be coming back to the 26th. >> We're looking for the 21st. >> I'm just saying
21st Okay with you, Commissioner. >> I have a obligation, but >> Okay. Is the 20th? >> I'm just one person. >> Is the 20th May? I'm just one person. Okay. Victor Jones. >> Which day work? Does the 20th or 21st
work for you or both? Commissioner Jones. >> The 21st. >> 21st. >> What day you you're recommending? 20th or 20th? >> I'm I'm just The majority are saying the 21st. Commissioner Campbell, however, is
not available. >> I'm good. I'm good for the 20th through the 22nd. >> I'm good for either night. So, it's again what the majority wants. >> All right. The 20th if Commissioner came to be done 20th. The 20th >> 20th. Okay, that would be better. 10:20.
At what time, folks? >> 5 5:30 >> 6. >> I'm I'm flexible. >> I'm flexible. >> I'm looking 5:30. I don't know. >> I'm flexible.
>> And I still have I will just express that you're >> saying Monday the 20th. Correct. >> Yeah. >> At um >> I'm saying 5:30. I don't know what else anybody else is saying. >> That's an odd time there. >> At 6 p.m. Okay. You want it? Come on.
I'm trying to finish the motion. This is all in the motion. >> Oh, we know. We know. >> Okay. At 6 pm. >> Okay. I guess that's not my choice. >> Um that's fine. And um I will still say I am concerned about staff reporting
directly to Miss Kotti because somebody can't be monitored. >> Oh, and I um >> in that 30day and during this time >> Oh, no. No. I made the motion as I >> Okay. So, you want >> attended? >> So, you want to continue the acting as
city management city manager role. >> Oh, so she's restored. Yeah. And you did say that. >> Oh, I'm sorry. And with Chief Shaw at um continuing as
assistant acting assistant city manager. So the motion is that Miss Collie will be restored to her role as city manager. That Chief Shaw will continue as the acting assistant city manager so that employees could report to him and
communicate via him. That a case that a city manager coach will be enlisted to guide and mentor Miss Cotti. Correct. >> Yes. and that there'll be an employee
workshop that HR will >> facilitate work I didn't I just said I don't know who's going to facilitate it I said work with HR to schedule >> workshops that will increase employee morale and employee employer relations >> and Miss Kotti will continue her efforts
to become certified as a city manager >> correct >> and we will have a special call meeting scheduled on October 20th at 6 pm >> we got Anything? >> Yes. So, we have a motion. Do we have a second? >> Second.
>> We have a motion second. All in fa roll call, please. Madam clerk. >> Commissioner. >> Yes. >> Commissioner Jones. >> Commissioner Jones. Commissioner Campbell.
>> No. >> Commissioner Davis. >> Yes. >> Can we try Commissioner Jones again? >> Commissioner Jones, >> are you there? Hey, can you hear me?
>> Yes. Yes. Did you hear the motion? >> Nay. >> Nay. I was saying nay. I was on mute. Sorry. >> That's okay. >> I'm having a hard time. I'm gonna go with yay, Jessica. So, we need to move forward and I want things to happen and
want some stability, but I'm not totally comfortable with it. But, yay. [Music] >> So, the the was a 32 the motion approved. Any further discussion? If not, is there a motion to motion to adjourn? Thank
you.