2026 and at 7:07 p.m. Adequate not announcement is made that adequate notice of this meeting has been given and that it is being conducted in accordance with NJSA 104-6 act of the open new of the New Jersey
open public meetings act. If you could rise, >> join us in the pledge of allegiance, please. To the flag of the United States of America and to the stands, one nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Is there anyone? Okay. Sorry. Okay. Uh, we will proceed with roll call. Mr. Dowitz >> here. >> Mr. Masarella >> here. >> Mr. Modi
>> here. >> Uh, Mr. Jazzia, >> sorry, >> here. >> Mr. Ready, >> present. >> Chairwoman Renani, >> present. >> We also have our board planner, Mr. Chadwick. Our board engineer, Mr. Lammanoitz, >> here.
>> And our board attorney, Mr. Johnson, >> here. Good evening. Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak on something other than what is on our agenda this evening? I see none. Our agenda this evening is
application 24 col 38 Islamic community cultural center 879 South Bevwick Road block 764 lot 34 zone R1-RW
a preliminary and final site plan with C D variance to construct a threestory addition this application was carried married from January 28th, 2026. Mr. Sheffys. >> Yes. Good evening. Thank you for having
us again. Uh just as a brief uh recapitulation, when we last appeared before you, uh the board specifically requested that the applicant provide revised plans uh which would incorporate our uh uh proposed lift system to create additional on-site parking. So, since
that time, the project architect has modified his plans, project engineer has modified his plans. We've likewise provided uh information regarding the lift system. Uh this evening uh we have an authorized uh representative of the installing authorized installer of these lift systems. He's here this evening to
give testimony. We have a short uh video of the operation of this um of this type of lift. Uh now because of the constraints associated with having a single-sided screen, uh we would like to show the uh video to the board first and then we can turn around and replay it
for the audience. It's just practically difficult unless we put it up here. I guess what we could do is we could put it up here on the deis and then kind of everybody would have to like turn their heads. >> How long is the video? >> It's about 2 minutes. >> All right. Okay. >> I think it's fine to show it twice.
>> Okay. >> All right. So, I'm going to ask that our audio visual assistants uh take that up. And then without further ado, I'm going to ask the gentleman seating to my uh to my right, Joseph Livini Jr. to be sworn. and then he could tell you a little bit
about his business and then what's uh in store relative to the lift. So, Mr. Levidini, if you'd please rise, the board attorney is going to sway you in. >> Raise your right hand, please. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give should be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> Can you state your name? Spell your last
name, please, with the microphone. >> Joseph N. Livini Jr., >> how do you spell your last name? L I V I D I N I >> Thank you. You can have a seat. Just make sure you use the microphone. >> Good evening, Mr. Lividini. I had uh
introduced you as a authorized installer of the lift system which is proposed in order to assist in providing additional on-site parking at this facility subject to tonight's application. So, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? if you could please explain to the board and the members of the public present as
to what it is you've done for so many years and how it is that you're familiar with the lift that's subject to tonight's presentation. >> I've been an installer for about 15 years, maybe even 20. Uh we do benpack
uh and several other types of lifts, but this is the top-of-the-line lift out there is Benpac. >> Okay. And Benpac is the brand in which uh the applicant has submitted that would be utilized in this uh facility. Correct. >> Yes. >> All right. So let's talk about what the
lift is, how it works uh and maintenance and then likewise uh any problems. >> Mr. Chef, I see the video is playing. So I'm not sure you wanted it to play before you >> Oh yeah. You know what? Maybe we can put the video on hold and then from there uh after Mr. Livini, just give us just about a minute and a half.
>> Okay, good. And is there any volume on that? Yeah, put volume. Okay, good. You don't trust me with that thing. All right. So, so Mr. Libidini, let's talk about a little bit of what goes into these lifts, how they work, and uh the
manner in which they're installed and any issues associated with maintenance, operations, and the like. Uh the lifts are all made out of steel. Electric over hydraulic pump that raises and lowers the lift. Has an air operated safety
that the lift cannot be let down without pushing the safety button. Uh they lock as they go up every 4 in with a double lock. So even if the power fails or the cable snaps, the lift cannot come down.
a steel safety latch that locks into a hole in all four corners and the lift can't drop. It can only drop three inches at the max when if the cable snaps. Uh they're very simple to operate. I put
a lot in homes where the homeowners, you know, average guy just wants to put his car up in the air. Takes about 45 seconds to rise all the way up to the top. There's a safety at the top and it'll stop.
It's basic. It's basic. They use them in gas stations, residential, all over. You know, this this is a nationwide company. So, we're actually based out of California. >> I've done a couple hundred of them. So,
>> have you ever seen these utilized as additional commercial parking in a commercial setting? >> Yes, they use them a lot in New York City. Now, let's talk about the maintenance of a device like this. How what goes into the maintenance? >> There's very little maintenance. Got to be greased maybe once a year. Check the
fluid and that's it. Uh unless there's a leak, you're not going to lose any fluid. And they very very rarely leak. >> Now, let's talk let's talk about the fluid. What type of fluid is in them? And how does the lift work? Is it electric? Is it hydraulic? Is it a pneumatic lift? What is it?
>> It's electric over hydraulic. It uses regular transmission fluid that's used in the average car. It holds 12 quarts. Uh there's a safety reservoir if there's a leak, but it won't, you know, if it leaks,
it's just going to be a minor drip. And that's if it's used a lot, you know, on a daily basis. It may wear out after a couple of years. But, uh, the way it's going to be used here, they're going to use once a week. They're going to they're going to need
very little maintenance and very little chance of a leak. >> Now, do these lifts uh operate uh outside or inside or both? >> Both. >> Okay. >> They could be out in the rain, they could be out in the in the weather, inside,
you know, typical homeowner's garage, you know. >> Okay. Well, why don't we look at the video and then I'm sure you'll be able to add some information to it. So, so I don't erase the tape. I'm going to ask somebody else uh press the button. I don't want to press the wrong button. I
see about six buttons on there. >> Yeah. Mr. Sheepus, you mentioned the ask them to raise the volume. >> Yes. >> Uh in terms of the audio on this tape, are there words being spoken? >> Yes, it's audio from the manufacturer describing the operation. I I think that
raises a concern with respect to testimonial issues regarding whether that is should be considered testimony. You would not be subject to cross-examination. I have a little bit of a problem with that. >> Well, I could ask Mr. Levidini if he agrees with that. And if he does, then
we can admit it. If he doesn't, then >> I I I just don't want it to be considered to be testimonial in terms of how the lift operates with no opportunity to cross-examine. >> Understood. >> Think you understand my concern. >> I understand. But, you know, let's see what it says and then if there's an issue. And Mr. Levidini, of course, I
know you've listened to the video and you've heard the the audio on it. Correct. >> Yes. >> And to the best of your knowledge, the information that's related in this uh this presentation, is it accurate as far as the operation? >> As far as I can see, yes. >> Okay. And does it compare with your experience so that you'll be able to
answer any questions that may arise from what's being said? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Well, let's see how it goes. If there's an issue, I might ask the board to disregard it if we don't have the ability to ask questions. >> Okay. HW
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on 350 service. >> Okay. Now Mr. Lividini, you heard the entire presentation on the video. Is that fair? >> Okay. Do you uh attest to the truth of the statements that were made there apart from like maybe the puffing
associated with being the finest lift known to man or anything like that? >> Yes. Yes. >> Any facts contained therein that are not accurate? >> No. >> And you're prepared to ask answer any questions that may come forth relative to the facts that were elicitated here? >> Yes. >> Okay. Now, I do have a couple quick
questions for you. Uh, in your experience, is one of the purposes for these lifts to permit the parking of an automobile below it? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, it's not just a matter of getting the car in the air to change the oil or something like that? >> No. A lot of people, that's why they buy them homeowners so they can fit a second
car in their garage. >> Okay. And uh likewise, in the commercial applications that you've seen, have they been used in order to create an additional parking space? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> All right. Now perhaps uh we can turn it and allow the public to see it. Would that be acceptable at this point?
>> Sure. Okay. So >> and you know maybe what we should do is we should put the microphone near it so that we get good audio on it if there's a a tape. >> Yeah, that might be. >> Yeah. >> Well, I don't know that we need the audio in the transcript because this
video is an exhibit. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. But there people in the audience might not be able to hear. That's a good point. Yeah, that's >> okay. This way too. I think it'll amplify it. It was a little for here. I think it was okay, but I think in the back people may
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>> Thank you. What a catch. >> Good catch. >> Okay, Mr. Levidini, I have just a couple more questions for you. Uh in this particular application there is a crossgrade albeit slight at 3%. Is there
any issue with installing these lifts on a cross grade of 3%. >> No. >> Have you done so in the past? >> Yes. >> Okay. Now uh in addition it is proposed to have a series of these lifts in a row so as to have them in a in a particular
bank where the grade is the flattest. Is there any issue in installing them in a bank i.e. 10 in a row or 12 in a row or even 20 in a row. >> No issue at all. >> Have you ever seen that type of application? >> New York City, they do it all the time. >> Okay. Now, uh in the tape it mentioned
that the maximum height of this particular lift was 70 and a half in which is a hair shy of 6 feet. >> Yes. >> Now, in your understanding, uh would the standard passenger automobile fit below that type of vehicle at that height? >> Without a question.
>> Okay. And likewise, what would you say would be the standard height that you would see in your applications as far as a vehicle that would fit under this lift? >> Uh, they're around 60 in something like that. >> Okay. So, you still have a foot or so to go? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, is it fair to say then even if
the thing is maximum height of 6 feet and you had a 5ft car, you you could comfortably fit this in an 11t 12t space? >> Yes. >> Okay. All right. I don't have anything further. Mr. Lividini and he's available for any questions. Does the board have any questions? >> Yeah, I have a couple,
>> please. >> Um, when you say you installed in New York City, is it mostly at parking garages? >> Outdoor outdoor parking garage. >> Outdoor parking garage. Have you had any experience in New Jersey with doing this
in an enclosed environment? >> Yes. >> Okay. And when you install it, you said it's 45 seconds just to raise it. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, first question is, could you put two jeeps in it? Could there be a Jeep on the bottom and a Jeep on top in
under this structure? >> It depend uh what is our height that we have for ceiling height? >> It depends. It ranges. Uh maybe Mr. Walker, we can get that. >> We need around 13 ft. >> Okay. So, we're not sure yet. We can get
an answer on that. >> Excuse me. >> We'll get an answer on that. >> Well, the architect would be able to address the floor to ceiling height. Uh, but I would ask Mr. Lividini if a a passenger vehicle, you said five feet in height with another one above, would it fit within an 11 foot space?
>> Yeah. A normal like uh Jeep uh Cherokee or something like that. Yes. >> Okay. So now how now you you won't know this. Maybe Mr. Ship could answer this. How um if uh if a service starts at 4, when do people start arriving
>> in bulk? >> Yeah, that's good. You know what? traffic engineer is going to be the next witness. He'll be able to address that because he did the counts. >> Okay. Um so there are 22 of these that are is that the >> the plan shows 22. >> Okay. So in a perfect world,
how often do the um ramps have to move in in you know >> they don't have to move sideways. Well, they so they showed that they could be moved so that the different vehicle widths >> Yeah. the standard vehicles fit if you
we set them at the at the widest uh position when we put them in. Unless you got a small, you know, foreign car or something like that, then you would have to move it in. But the standard car is around 60 in of wheelbase, 58, and
it'll fit at the wide setting. >> Who operates it? Does it need to be an operator? or does it the guy who's going to pull in and use it? Does he operate it? >> Uh, that's not the case here. I think they're going to be using just employees. I'll be operating the lifts.
>> Okay. Um, so my fear is this. Service is called for four. People start getting there quarter to 4, 10 to 4. It's taken at least a It takes 45 seconds just to raise it. That's not
including the time it takes to pull in, right? Pull into your spot, then to raise it. >> Correct. >> Right. >> They get 10 10 15 minutes, 10 minutes, let's say, to get the cars in and then all of a sudden the traffic's back down on the street or they don't have time
and they start deciding they're going to go park on the street because they got to get in for service. How do you get around that? uh the traffic engineer will address it, but I would say this and and he'll bear it out in the testimony. It's not anticipated that any um I'll say
congregants would utilize these lifts. The lifts are to be reserved for the employees and staff members and likewise the residents of the facility. So in essence, what we would anticipate would be a situation where say an hour before the uh the service events. The
residents's automobile would then be placed on the lift by a member of the staff elevated in the air creating the open spot below. Likewise, permitting the resident's uh vehicle to be on site and then when the entire uh service day is over, you know, lasts about two
hours, two and a half hours, then the vehicle would be returned to ground level and the lift would be placed in the air until the following week. So, we anticipate using the lifts only during the service times and it would be the residents in the building or staff whose vehicle was on top. So, we wouldn't be
in a situation where the vehicle would have to drive onto the lift in anticipation of a service and then elevated and then have to come down during the course. That would not be practical. So, we're avoiding that by having the vehicles uh of the residents on site uh elevated or staff members
vehicles elevated prior to anybody showing up. So, we anticipate an hour before the first uh service uh we would have these vehicles in the air and the space below open. >> Okay. I think the rest of my questions have >> someone's going to testify about that. >> Yes. Yes. Mr. Paraggoy will be
testifying to that next. >> I I got a couple too. Uh so it was stated there's 12 quarts of hydraulic fluid in each lift or the entire system? >> Each lift holds 12 quarts. >> Okay. Um the ramps that the car drives
up on, I guess the yellow pieces that were added in that video, do they have to be taken off when that goes up? Only if you have to bring a tall vehicle underneath. They hang down just a little bit. >> Okay. So, when it's not active, when you're not using them and it's up in the air, you leave. Yes.
>> But if a tall >> hang down, they hang down almost level, >> maybe a two or three degree pitch. >> Okay. >> When it's up in the air. >> So, if a resident has a taller vehicle, then that will have to be removed. >> Right. >> So, that's okay. And then they also said
in the video that the lifts itself is easily movable. So you could put it anywhere in your garage, move it around your garage. So if there's nobody home, nobody underneath it, nobody on top of it, it's easily like I mean it says easily moved. Does that mean I could go pull it out and roll it away or >> they they make a wheel kit for it?
>> And is a wheel kit on there all the time or >> No, >> you have to put it on to move it. >> Right. Right. >> Okay. >> Two guys can can move the lift without a wheel kit. >> Oh, okay. So yeah. Okay. If I need one, I'll go grab one. Qu uh
I got a question. So uh have you reviewed the parking spot sizes? >> Have you reviewed the parking spot sizes? >> I know if you review >> the size of the parking lot sizes. >> Yes. >> Okay. So the lift uh that was shown is
it is it like good space or does it >> there's more than adequate room to get on the lift? >> I'm sorry. There's more than adequate space to get in and out of out of the lifts with no problem. >> You know, let me ask this follow-up question, and I I think this is where the board members angling.
>> Is it fair to say that this lift would fit within the standard parking space? Say even 8 by uh 16. >> Yes. >> Okay. How wide is this lift that you're proposing? >> I believe that lift is 9 ft. I'm not 100% sure. Okay. Outside to outside is 9
ft. >> Okay. Does that cut into the spot next to it? Like if you put 15 in a row, will it? >> No, we can overlap them >> forward and back so you don't lose any space.
>> So, it's not going to cut any parking space if we install like this lift side by side. >> Yeah, the average space is 10 ft wide. So, you should shouldn't have a problem. >> Okay. Thank you. Any
other questions from our board? >> Mr. Mmanowitz. >> Um, Mr. Livine, a couple questions. Um, in the video, and Mr. Shepers was kind enough to to give us the uh the link to it. Uh, there's one image here that I'm going to show you near the uh we're at
uh 339 where the guy operating lift is getting at something underneath. What is that? >> He's turning on an air compressor. These units, you have an air compressor to release the safety. >> Okay. So, that's something else that have to be mounted somewhere near it. >> The the these units are going to come
with a compressor mounted on them. >> Okay. >> So, you won't be bending down underneath it. >> Okay. Um, you mentioned that they have to be greased once a year. >> It depends on how much use they get, you know, the and the quality of the grease that somebody uses.
>> Um, well, what Okay. Well, I went to the website and it says that uh the required monthly maintenance for the two and four p post lift is lubricating the posts. So, are you saying that >> unless unless they're getting used all
day long every day? Yes. But if if it's just a homeowner's garage or the way this is going to be once a week, I can't see where it would need that much uh service. >> Okay. >> Do you do you have the model number of this? What what's proposed here?
>> It's an HD9W. >> HD9W. Okay. >> Because the the the video we have is for a HD9XW and an HD7W. So that video is not >> the 9W is a um 9,000lb lift.
>> Okay. But this the video is 9XW. >> That's probably the wider lift. >> Okay. And what's the inside to inside dimension of those posts? >> I'm not sure of that. I'd have to look at the catalog. >> Okay. Because I I I there were images on
the plans here and the outside the outside dimension I believe was 8t 4 and something in which scaled the inside to inside at 7 and 1/2. Does that sound about right? >> Sounds about right. There's usually
about four or five inches of clearance on the mirrors on both sides >> on the average car. >> Okay? Because if it's seven and a half, if it's seven and a half foot wide, I always go to a Toyota Camry because it's the most popular sedan sold. And that
style, I'm guessing, is also popular. That's general size where they're and that car is a little over six feet. So, if you have a 6' wide vehicle in a 7 and 1/2t wide space, that means you've got 9 in from the car to the post.
>> The the W is the wide one, so it's probably going to be wider. >> Okay. Well, the plan is showing the outside to outside is 8' 4 in. So, how big are the posts? >> 6 in. >> So, it's seven It's 7T 4 5 in. So, it's
about 7 and 1/2 ft. So my question is if there's only if the if the car is perfectly centered the six the six the six foot wide car is perfectly centered in the 7 and 1/2t wide opening you've only got 9 in to squeeze between the post and the car.
>> No that's not correct. Then the dimension might be wrong on the on the on the drawing as far as I can see >> because we have 9 foot spaces. So 8 and 1/2, 8 ft, 4 in, whatever, that'll fit in the 9 ft spaces. >> Yes.
>> But if you're saying it's wider than that, then it's not going to fit. >> Uh, I'd have to see the specs on the lift. >> Okay. >> Could we take a moment and take a look at the specs on the lift? >> Sure. Sure. If you have that, Mr. Shepers, I'll try to I know I saw some
>> I have a question. I'm going to ask. They want 28, correct? They're putting 22 pieces in this left. It's for the employees, the staff, and the resident. >> Is that something that you have with you? >> Is it on the plan? >> Yeah, it's on the architectural plan.
So, Tom has it borrow his plan or >> they're only expecting six six pieces six pe people to come in from outside. >> I think it's actually the engineering thing that showed the out out. I'm not sure.
The answer is >> well that's what I'm going to I'm going to ask that. I'm going to ask >> Yeah. The architecture three says >> the stacker spaces are 16 ft 8 in long and 8t 4 1/2 in wide. So if you're
saying each post is 6 in then you lose well you lose half and half. So that's 6 in less than that. So it's like 7 feet 10 in left over. But still again, you only got you got about a foot to squeeze between
the car and the post to get out. >> When you say squeeze, why don't you explain either end? So when you're getting out, you're >> the door opens. >> Okay. Well, the the elevation view on the archite on the architect's plane. >> Can the witness just hold the mic up
close? >> Make sure the mic's close when you talk. Okay. >> Thanks. You might just Sorry about that. Will it will opening the door matter at that point if it's in the middle of the lift? It's not there's nothing there.
>> What I'm getting at is when you get out of the car, you're now between the cars, but when you go to walk out, you've got posts to your spot and the spot next to you that you've got to get around with the cars in. Got it.
You can walk under >> six feet, >> right? But if there's a car in top and bottom, >> top and bottom next to you, >> how are you going to get out? >> Either under or between. If we stagger them,
>> one one forward and one back, there'll be a foot of space, a foot and a half of space to walk through. >> No. is >> the post won't be together. >> If you put two if you put two two stackers side by side,
>> right? >> You put the cars on the top. Actually, it doesn't matter. You put two cars on the bottom. >> You get out. So now you've got about a foot between the post and your car. Then you got the the next post and you got another foot between that post and the
next car. How do you get out? >> You can put one lift forward and one lift back >> so you have more room. microphone. You got one lift forward two feet and one lift back two feet. So you have room to walk it to walk. >> Is there room to do that? >> Are the posts adjustable?
>> No, but you could set the lift up so they're not right next to each other. >> But if all of the lifts are in the same location under the building, you won't be able to stagger it like you just suggested. Correct. >> Yeah. They're not shown staggered on the
planes. >> Oh, you may have. Okay. >> So, do you understand Mr. Lman Wood's question? Is it correct that if they're all configured in a row, there will only be
a a foot in order for passengers to exit their vehicles. Is that correct? >> I'm not sure. >> Here's the image I was going after. It's on A10. And you can see that. And these cars are actually smaller. I've
got a mark here that shows where the back of the Camry would be. So you're getting out between the posts. So how do you get out of that space between the posts? >> Unless you climb over the hood of the car. >> One, we have to put one lift forward and
one lift back. Then >> I'm going to I That's not how it's shown in the plan. >> They're all lined up perfectly straight. Or you will have to walk underneath. >> Excuse me. >> Walk underneath what possible. >> There's plenty of room. >> Microphone. Microphone. Mic. Make sure
you use the microphone. >> All right. I'm And again, I'm just not seeing >> Yeah, there's plenty of room to walk through. >> I don't I don't see it. I mean, I'm looking going by the dimensions. If you've got those two 6in square posts with some space between them, that takes
up a foot and then you've only got the little bit on either side to get to the car. How are you going to get a person through there? Plus the the lift the lift pieces itself. There's um you know there's the the base to the to the unit. You with the bolt
sticking out. You're trying to squeeze through a narrow space, not trip on the bolts. And I I'm just curious how how that works. >> When when you have installed these on prior occasions, have you installed them right next to each other? >> Yes. And when you have done that, have
you had to stagger them front to back? >> You don't have to because you, you know, if somebody puts it in their garage, they usually don't have that much room. >> So, >> but have you installed them in an application like this where they're installed directly next to each other?
>> No, there's usually a space. >> So, there's usually a space between each lift when you have installed more than one lift. >> You usually leave a foot of space. >> You in your >> We don't have a foot of space. I'm not sure how they do it. I didn't see the plan, so I'm not sure how they do it out.
>> So, in your prior instances where you've installed multiple lifts, you've left a foot of space between each lift. Is that correct? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Now, just so we're clear, >> the the lift itself is four posts. It doesn't have a rail on the bottom. >> Right.
>> So, right, >> the posts are on the nose and the back end. Correct. >> Correct. >> So, it's completely open between the two posts. >> Correct. And as a result, where the the lift posts are, it's not where a person's getting in and out of the car.
>> Correct. >> No, they can. I agree. They can get out of the car, but they can't get out of the parking space. >> All right. So, how wide are the posts based on uh your understanding of this particular lift? How how far or how wide is the opening between the the two
posts? It looks like 8 foot4. Okay. 8 foot4. >> What is the plan that he's reading right now? >> He's he's referring to sheet A10 on the architecturals. So, he's refreshing his recollection. Sheet A10. >> Yeah. Well, that dimension is not shown
on A10. And just to I found it on the video. If you look here, look where that car is and look where that post is. How is somebody going to walk between that car and that post? >> You don't know? >> I don't have an answer to that question.
We'll have the project architect address that. It's his plan. >> So you said you're going to the architect is coming to have an answer for Mr. Lmano. >> It's his plan. So he'll have he'll have an answer for that. >> When these are shipped, are they shipped complete including the fluids?
>> No. >> Why aren't they shipped with the fluids? >> They're they're not assembled. They have to be assembled on site, >> right? But you don't include the fluid with the excuse me ship. When you ship everything is something you have to go out and buy your own fluid. Is that the deal?
>> Yeah, we have to buy our own fluid. Yes. >> Okay. >> All right. I'm going to read from the website and correct me if fluid come with the lifts. Due to current DOT and insurance laws regarding the transport of hydraulic oils, hazardous ingredients, DOT section two, fire
explosion hazards and DOT section 3, health hazards, the required hydraulic fluid is to be supplied by the end unit. So it sounds like one of the reasons that you can't ship the hydraulic fluid is because it's a hazardous material. >> We don't use hydraulic fluid. We use transmission fluid.
>> Well, isn't transmission fluid a hydraulic fluid? >> Excuse me. Isn't transmission Isn't a transmission operate by hydraulics? That's the definition of hydraulics. >> Yeah, but it's a different texture of oil. >> Different texture, but it's still a petroleum product. >> Yes.
>> I have nothing else, Madam Chair. Thank you. Do you also maintain these >> or do you just install them? >> Oh, we maintain them also. >> Okay. And in your experience, how often does the hydraulic fluid need to be changed?
doesn't need to be changed. >> Never needs to be changed. >> No, they'll outlast the lift. >> And you indicated that there was a reservoir. >> There's a plastic reservoir that the war oil goes into. Yes. >> And how big is the reservoir?
>> About 16 quarts. >> So there's extra room. We only put 12 in. And just to clarify, did you say you never installed it staggered? That they've always been next to each other? Never. >> You can. We installed staggered also,
but you know, it all depends on how much room you have. >> I have a question. You mentioned that there would be 22 units of these staggered spaces.
We have 28 apartments that are proposed. You said the units would be used for employees, staff, and residents. >> Yeah, that's going to come out through the traffic engineer. >> My question is, I'm not finished. My
question is, if it's 28 apartments and we only have 22 lifts, there's going to be six spaces left for the congregants when they come to a meeting. Where else are they going to park? They're going to be parking elsewhere.
>> The traffic engineer is going to address that. >> Thank you. Are there any other questions from our board? >> Yes. The drawing A10 shows the maximum height of 5' 10 in while you said the average height of Jeep is 6 feet. How
it's going to fit? >> They're going to be putting passenger cars in here as far as I know. and small SUVs, not large SUVs. >> But we really don't know what people are driving. You're going to drive what they drive.
>> That's a question for you to answer. >> Okay. If you don't know the answer, I don't think you could just say I don't know the answer. >> I don't know the answer. >> Okay. >> Any other questions from the board? >> Do you have anything else, Mr. Shepers, before I >> No, it's he's available for questions
from the public. >> I have one quick question. You talked about the Is it an accessory that catches drips from what? The car that's being lifted or from the apparatus. >> He he mentioned during the course of the
video, it mentioned that you could buy an accessory pan for the >> Yes, there's a plastic pan that that's for the cars. >> So when the car is up in the air, it won't drip on the car on the bottom. >> Correct. >> How about the hydraulics for the lift system itself? Is there any contain?
>> There's no leaks. No, >> they don't. They unless there's a problem with the lift, there's nothing dripping out. >> Now, if there is a problem, there is rush around and clean that by >> the pan will the pan will catch whatever
>> leaks out of the lift. Also, >> what pan? >> There's a pan apparatus that goes with the lift. >> It's an option for the lift. Yes. Is it shown on the plans? >> Is it shown on the plans that were
submitted? Uh, >> I don't believe so. >> Not on the plans. >> That option was not just depicted on the plans. >> It's not on the plans. Okay. >> Is the pan you're talking about? The pan catches the the uh potential drips from
the car above or catches leaks from the hydraulic fluid? It catches all the oil that drips out of a car. >> The pan will catch. >> Not potential leaks of hydraulic fluid. >> No. >> And there's no pan for hydraulic. If it
leaks, it leaks. >> There is an option for that also. >> And that's what is not shown on the plan. However, it is not shown on the plan we received. >> As far as we know, >> I'm not aware of that.
All right. >> Any other questions from the board? >> I think the architect's got an answer. >> Okay. So, one other question and I don't know. It's probably some other witness. You keep talking about the employees of the
mosque. We haven't had any real testimony as to what the employment staff is of the mosque and whether or not they are able to operate these lifts.
Okay. Well, why don't we uh why don't we ask Mr. Lividini what goes into operating these lifts. So, Mr. Lividini, maybe you can explain to the board and the public uh the skill level or the u effort necessary in order to >> Yeah. Before we do that, there obviously
a liability question way out of my field, >> but between yourself >> to operate the lift is very simple. You just push a button and the lift goes up and you push a button and the lift goes down. There's two buttons to let it down and one to go up. >> Good. >> The average homeowner should be able to
handle that without a problem. >> But these aren't >> You don't have to be mechanically inclined to run the lift. Yeah, we we we do stipulate that it would be an employee of the facility, a staff member who would be trained on how to operate the lift. That would be the sole person that would be permitted to
operate it. Residents, uh, visitors would not be permitted to operate the lift. residents would not be per >> would not be only a staff member and we anticipate using them only on the days in which there services >> somebody's going to explain explain the
staffing then of the mosque as it relates to this at least >> yes >> yes we'll have a witness that'll testify that >> so if you have a a function other than the religious service then they'll have to have people there for that day too. Right.
>> Correct. Correct. >> So, it's not just the service, it's anytime there's >> an event, >> an event. >> That's right. If there's an event and they need the additional parking, then there'll be somebody on the staff that would operate the lift. And it would be anticipated that the vehicles would be
on the lift an hour in advance of the actual need. The purpose is to create additional spaces. >> And I'm assuming there's like a key to get it. You have to turn it on with a key so nobody can just go press the buttons. When we install them, we're going to
have a lock box on the on the uh operation switch. >> Nora, would you please note that member Betty Ludro is present? Thank you. >> Anyone else have questions on the board?
>> Okay. At this point, >> you have another question, Mr. Shepher. We have one more, Mr. Man. I have I have just an just a comment at this point because you know we were looking at this and I and Mr. uh Levidini in the testimony seems to have confirmed some things. Um the property is located
within a tier uh one uh wellhead protection area. Um under that uh the it is not allowed to have a use that has a either a minor or a major potential
pollution. um uh potential pollution source, sorry. And a potential pollution source includes above ground storage of hazardous substance or waste in quantities of
2,000 gallons or less. Um under the ordinance 43013 for sorry 430- 319 um hazardous substances defined um as substances it listed included petroleum but petroleum products. It
also makes reference to the skill compensation and control act which indicates that a hazardous substance includes petroleum products. Uh again I I read from the uh from the website and it indicated that it's not shipped with
fluids uh because the fluids under uh DOT section 1, DOT section 2, DOT section 3 that petroleum products uh that the the the fluid the transmission fluid hydraulic fluid is hazardous. So
given that the wellhead protection uh ordinance also says the use limitations noted herein shall be noted as limitations stipulated in the permitted list of uses in each zone. So because this is
considered a a minor um potential pollution uh source in a tier one um I believe that having those lifts requires another D1 variance. Now, let me ask you this question, and I read your ordinance, and I have it in front of me,
and it has the list of what a minor PPS's includes, and it references the fact that above ground tanks with 2,000 gallons or less, and then it has a reference to conditions under subsection C, and then it gets you into the best
management practices as to containment and the ability to prevent any kind of discharges. So you tell me, isn't it fair to say that uh these type of uh say reservoirs if they don't leak then don't constitute the hazard that the ordinance
is seeking to prevent? >> No, I believe it said the fact that you're storing 66 gallons of a hazardous fluid on site is a violation of the oilhead protection act. >> Even if it says that up to 2,000 gallons could be exempt, >> not hydraulic fluid. It talks about
heating oil for uh but but it doesn't say it doesn't talk about hydraulic. >> Is there a difference between hydraulic and heating oil, Mr. Levidini, >> as relates to the care of it or the storage of it?
>> I'm not aware. >> I'm not aware of that. >> Well, I would think if I put transmission fluid in my furnace, it's not going to like it. >> I understand. But I meant as far as the the substance is concerned as far as propensity to leak >> and then also um under
ordinance 430-275U other use of off- streetet parking space is prohibited. No off- streetet parking space or loading area shall be used for the servicing of of any equipment. So you're not allowed to service this. That's another that would be a C
variance, I would guess, but that's another variance that's going to be required. >> So that means you can't have any you can't service any equipment in this zone. So if you have an elevator, you can't service it. >> And if the elevator's in the parking lot, you can't service it. But most elevators are inside the building. >> And if you have a generator, auxiliary
generator, you can't service it. >> It says in the parking lot, not on the site. >> I know, but if I had an auxiliary generator on the side of the building in the parking lot, I couldn't service it. It says in the parking lot you're not allowed to service equipment. >> I I I understand your point.
>> That's all I have, Madam Chair. Okay. At this point, um we would open it up for me members of the public to ask questions. As as we've done at prior meetings, we're going to let Mr. Mills, who represents uh some of the neighbors,
ask his questions first because he may ask questions that you all have and then we'll open it up to members of the general public. >> Mr. Want to put your appearance on the record? >> Yes. Good evening. John Mills, an attorney in Marstown, New Jersey, continuing to represent the Cret and
Trevetti families. Uh and uh as always, thank you for your time. I know it's become very timeconuming and somewhat tedious. The board has covered most of the questions that I had, but for the witness, sir, can you please tell me what the dimensions are of the support
structure? I'm unclear after we seem to have changed distances right here, right? So, what does it say? This is the width here.
>> 8 foot4. It says 8'4 and 1/2 in in width. >> 8 foot4 and the length >> length is 22 feet. >> Is that a dimension?
>> The lift is 22 feet. >> Is that dimension adjustable or is it fixed? >> That's fixed. Are any of the spaces that are proposed to receive these lifts those spaces that include the support columns for the
building? >> Uh, I'm not aware of that that question. I don't know. I don't know what the dimensions of the building are. I don't have the columns or the dimensions of where the columns are going to be. It was laid out by the architect to make sure they're going to work.
Can you tell us where in New Jersey we could go and inspect an installation such as you've described? >> In New Jersey? >> Yes, sir. >> Uh, we just put one in. I have an address, but I don't have it with me.
>> I could get it. I could supply that for you. >> Have you done any New Jersey installations yourself? >> Excuse me. Have you done any New Jersey installations of these lifts yourself? >> Yes, we just did one a couple of weeks
ago. >> Why Why can't you tell us the address so we can go see it? >> I have to I don't have it with me. I have to check my file and get it for you. >> What town was it in? >> Town? >> I'm not sure. I It's been so long. We've done so many. I
don't know. I don't know what town it is. It was It was about a half an hour from here. That's all. How many lifts did you so install in that location? >> Excuse me. >> How many lifts? >> Two. >> Was it a >> residential
>> residential house? >> Yes. All right. Do you have any New Jersey experience with installations such as you're proposing here? >> Yes. >> What is that experience? We had we put
in uh 10 lifts in Connecticut in one site. Triple lifts, triple tall lifts. >> None in New Jersey though. >> That was in Greenwich, Connecticut. Thank you. You described the facility, the
equipment rather, as uh electric over hydraulic. So there's a cylinder, is that correct? >> Yes. >> With a ramp. >> One cylinder on the left. >> Right. Are there hoses? >> One hose. >> Diameter >> 38
>> seals. >> The seals, the shaft on the cylinder is probably inch and a half. >> And the reservoir you described as plastic, >> correct? >> Where does that sit with respect to the apparatus?
>> It sits on the outside of the post. >> Does that en enhance the width that we're talking about for the structure? No, it's tucked in behind or in front. >> How is it protected from being damaged?
>> We were proposing to make a metal cage around it if pro if we have to. If not, we could put a boward in front of that post of the lift. >> Put what in? I'm sorry. >> It's protected by the post also because it's inboard of the post >> on one side. >> Yes. On one side.
>> What happens in the event of a power failure? You use a generator to operate the lift. >> There's sufficient capacity. Is there a generator at this site? >> Uh that I'm not
>> Well, we we'll have that on the architectural and site plans, but I believe there is a generator, >> right? There's no battery backup then that you're aware of. >> What controls the ABS? Let me phrase it a different way. How do you prevent the
operator of the lift, whether skilled or otherwise, from elevating the the vehicle on top to the point where it gets crushed against the ceiling above it? >> There's a safety switch to shut it off. >> How does that how does that switch know how high it's >> determine the height? We can stop it or
they could put a bar across the ceiling with a safety switch on it. >> A contact apparatus. >> Yeah, there's a separate there's a separate safety bar. That's an option on the lift that you could put on the ceiling.
>> I'm not sure how that works. Maybe you could elaborate. >> It's got a micro switch on it. As soon as soon as the bar is touched, it shuts off the lift. The installations where one would find these lifts, like a home for example or
a parking garage, would have essentially one or two operators only at each location. Is that correct? >> No. Anybody can operate this lift, >> right? But if I had one in my home or two in my home and I needed to get at
the car that was on top, I don't have to go find a third person to get the bottom car out and then lower the top car. Right. >> No. >> Or if I were in a parking garage and the customer came and he wanted his car that was on top, the parking attendant would
retain the keys to the lower car. Correct. >> That it's not a question for me. How does that work? Then suppose you're in a commercial parking scenario. The customer comes in and and wants to get his car which or her car which happens
to be on top out. >> Mr. Paraggo will address that. >> And in this case you you claim that no skill is needed to operate the device. Is that right? Excuse me.
>> Is my microphone not working? >> No, I'm a little hard of hearing, that's all. I'm sorry. >> Me, too. But I put my hearing aids in today just so I could hear you. >> I'm trying to I'll repeat myself. You indicated, I believe, that no particular level of skill was needed to
operate these devices. >> That's correct. >> Then a moment ago, you were talking about under cross-examination from the board installing security devices. What What is that and how does it look like and what does it look like? >> Well, just put a box over the switch
that operates the lift and put a key on it or padlock on it. >> So, that requires somebody to be a keeper of the keys, right? You displayed some ramps in the video and they the ramps attached to the upper
lift carrier. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> They remain in place. >> They can remain in place. Yes. They don't have to be taken off. In this instance, if they remained in place and the ramp were elevated, do those ramps extend beyond the vertical plane of the
face of the building? >> That I'm not sure. >> If they did, would they create a hazard to pedestrians walking alongside the building? >> There's a simple pin on there to pull them out and take them off. So, How much space?
>> In the event in the event one or both of the vehicles in a particular storage unit caught fire. How does the fire department access the site to or access either of the vehicles to put the fire out?
>> The same way they would access if it was on the ground. The car is only going to be six feet off the ground. >> Yet, if it were the upper car that was on fire and it's up against it, the upper car is against or near the ceiling, the fire company would have to somehow find a way to remove the lower
vehicle first, right? >> Yes. >> Okay. All right. Thank you for your indulgence. >> At this point, if there are any members of the public that have questions of this witness on the testimony that he have has given, please come to the
microphone. Remember, this is for questions only, not comments either in support of or in opposition to the application. >> Okay, sir. State your name and tell us your address. >> My name is Ed Carter. Live at 84 Preston Road.
>> And how do you spell your last name? >> C A R T E R. >> You have a question for this witness? >> Yes, sir. Um, why do you need a ramp, okay, for bringing it in? Does that mean that the car is not sitting on the ground that it has to go up onto an
elevated platform? >> The platform is about 4 in thick. >> 4 in thick. And how tall did you say like a Grand Cherokee was? >> You were saying like >> not exactly sure. 6'6" maybe. >> Yeah. Like Okay. So, you add another
four inches on top. Okay. And then you basically had like with the safety that you're going to want to make sure that if the safety's in place that it has room to come back down. Okay. So that was what another three inches it could drop. >> Correct. >> Okay. So we added four, we add three.
Okay. So we're now all of a sudden we're over another half foot. Okay. For a car. Correct. >> It's a question. >> And it's not that much. You have to go back. It's over a half a foot. >> Two inches to go off to release the
safety. >> Okay. For it to come back down. I'm saying for the safety to work. >> Basically, the safety kind of comes down. And you talked about that it could drop three inches. >> Correct. >> You also said that normally when you put
this in, okay, that it's in a place where it's over 13 feet tall. Okay. for two cars. I don't think you have, you know, I know the architect will be the one that'll answer, but I don't think that there was 13 feet between the ground and the bottom of the building
they're proposing, >> right? But you still stick to it's going to be over 13 feet that's needed for two cars. >> That's an average. >> That's an average. We have to do worst case here. We don't get to do minimums.
Everything's designed for worst case analysis. Um, okay. Thank you. I kind of brought up my my points, >> sir. State your name, spell your last name, and tell the board your address. >> Nicholas Hamac. H O M Y A K.
>> You have a question for this witness? >> Yes, sir. Is there a reason why your video did not show a two vehicle operation or or any aspects of a an example of the
machinery being maintained greased and uh like a common route that you would look for? You said it leaks rarely. So, is there any any reason that film
just showed somebody's uh million-dollar home and they got nothing better to do with their garage than to store some vehicles? >> We put these lifts in all over the place. I've changed one piston. >> The video, is there a reason why the
video did not show the application for this site? a two vehicle lift. It showed one car going up and everybody was happy. >> I don't have an answer to that question.
>> All right. So, uh you also uh you said that during the the lifts would only be used during the services. So, does that mean that the residents
would have to uh suddenly man their vehicles and get them out of the way and that when the service is being performed that these lifts can only be used by
residents and the employees? >> We're going to defer that to the traffic engineer. He has the answer. I don't see what parking has to do with traffic. >> He's the parking and traffic engine. >> Oh, okay. Um, and lastly, uh, how would
you feel if you were drinking water from that well, from that particular well that you're impeding on in the tier one, which means any contamination can reach that well
within to two years. How would you feel drinking water from that well? >> I don't have an answer to that question. >> Thank you. >> Can you please state your name, spell your last name, and provide the board with your address?
>> Mie Ericson. Ericson. E R I C Ks O N6 South Beverwick Road. >> You have a question for this witness? Um, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. Um, my my question is having to do first with the the the 22
spaces. I think I just want clarification to understand it in my head. That means uh that means there's 11 11 spots and then there's a lower and upper and lower and upper. Is that how that works? >> There's proposed to be 22 lifts. So, it
would be 22 spaces that would have an upper and a lower. So that means 44 spaces. >> It it means that there's 22 parkings 22 lifts that would generate 44. >> 44 spaces and would all those be in the parking uh under under the building?
>> Correct. >> Okay. All right. Okay. So now with with that understanding I thank you very much for explaining that. Um, I did a little bit of research about EV cars because a lot of cars are now going electric and they're the requirements are a lot more
stringent because of the whole battery exploding kind of thing. Um, one of the one of the things that I saw uh with enclosed um uh lifters uh in in buildings were there's more there's more requirements
for uh uh fire suppression and and fire control. Also, there's requirements for uh distance uh above above the car for possibly an EV car burning up or being hot. And so my one my my question is
have you guys considered that or looked into that? >> The the fire official made a recommendation which we agreed to adhere to that no EV u vehicles be um I guess charged underneath. I mean, we can't stop people from parking there, but we would not permit EV parking on top of
the lift. >> Okay. All right. Thank you, >> sir. Can you state your name, spell your last name, and provide your address? >> Sure. My name is Samir Samir Rana. My address is 143 Carlton Drive. >> How do you spell your last name?
>> Uh, Ron Ra. >> Um, so I have two questions. Uh, the first question has two parts. Uh that's again in extension with uh fire hazards and concerns around around fire hazards. Um so this is unprecedented. I have lived in Paripony for 25 years and this
is an unprecedented you know parking arrangement parking lift as you know someone previous prior to me asked you we have literally no precedent from you having executed a project in New Jersey. So much less this zoning board with due
respect and I have the highest regard for their knowledge and expertise but they too don't have any experience in approving this project. Let's assume the two or three speakers who raised the concerns about fire. If indeed there were to be a fire and let's say I had a family, I had parents who had been
living upstairs who had not been having any cars. By the way, if for some reason, you know, there would be loss of life, would I be able to sue? Who would who would be liable? Who would I be able to sue? >> That sounds like a bar exam question. Uh
>> I mean, that's what I mean that's what you've brought us to pass off, right? I'm not sure that this witness is qualified to give a legal opinion. >> No, no. I what I'm saying is like have you considered about the liability aspects and don't you feel this board is
is taking assuming a risk and a liability on the behalf of the entire entire township by risking approving this uh parking arrangement. >> There's an architect who will give testimony as to the building code requirements and fire safety specifically. So the the qu your answer is that this
witness doesn't have that information but we have a witness who does. >> Okay. So the second question is uh you just talked about like you know there's a there's a pin that can be like you know removed off anyone can operate but I would take an exception you know all
the lifts and all the installations I'm assuming you must have done in New York City. That's where that's the only place I've seen these parking lifts by the way. You're assuming a scenario where an average 30 30 or 20 you know someone in their 20s or 30s is operating this but
this is a senior citizen facility. Let's walk a scenario where you know there's an oxygenarian or a septtogenarian who has an emergency situation and has to take his car off and it's in the second level. Do you think they'll be qualified in the middle
of the night? Let's assume let's make it like really you know late night. Do you think they'll be able to operate it on their own? >> Just there'll be an operational testimony from the traffic engineer, but to answer your question, these lifts will not be used in the middle of the
night. They'll only be used during the day during the service when we need the additional parking. Uh the residents uh would not uh be permitted to operate the lifts. It would be a staff member. There'd always be a staff member on >> and that's why I asked like in the middle of the night if some I have had to leave out
>> there would nobody's vehicles are going to be on top of the lift in the middle of the night. It's only for that three-hour window when they have a service going on. They need the extra spaces. So to answer your question, the lifts will be generally in the air. Vehicles can park freely underneath and
leave whenever people would like to leave. But only during the course of the service would the resident's vehicle be placed on top of the lift and then opening up a space below. So there'll be no opportunity where it would be in the middle of the night because the lifts will be up in the air. No vehicles uh on
the lifts overnight. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Can you state your name, spell your last name, and provide the board with your address, please? >> Larry Wharton. WH A R T O N for Edgewood Court. >> You have a question for this witness?
>> Yes. Um in the video it show when they demonstrate the use of the lift, the vehicle is perfectly lined up to just drive straight forward onto the lift. In this garage, the traffic will be driving perpendicular to the lift and has to turn in between those posts. Have you
considered that? >> Okay. >> Is there enough room to make that turn? But any issue as far as like turning into this thing? Like >> you just have to be straight. The the I guess the traffic guy will show on the plan how much room you have to turn in.
>> They may have to back up once and straighten out again, but that's about it. >> Who will be doing this parking? The uh attendant or the members, the the either the employees or the >> only the attendant would drive a vehicle onto the lift.
So the attendant would take the vehicle out of the space, lower the lift, drive the vehicle on the lift, and raise the vehicle in the air, opening up an additional space below. >> So residents would not be permitted to drive their car on the lift. >> Okay. I still don't know if it was considered how much room there is to
make that turn into the group. >> It's a It's presumably a standardized parking space, but the traffic engineer will address that question. So the 45 seconds is only a part of the time that it's going to take. Now you're talking about someone pulling in, right?
Maybe they have to back in, back out. They have to get out of the car. They have to give the keys to the attendant. The attendant has to pull in. He has to then give the keys back to that guy, that person. That person's going to now have to go out and then he's going to
repeat that 22 times before a cere a service. the the the one of the uh residents brought up a great point which was everything seems to be um planned out as if it's perfect. And the resident said
we need to not test it against the median. We have to test it against worst case and it seems like everything has to be perfect to maybe it work right. So, like let's say someone who is supposed to have a car on the second tier, they
work. Are they not allowed to come back home uh within a half hour of the service? You're you're you're you putting out that this should work under the perfect conditions. I'm not convinced of that,
but I'm pretty convinced so far that it doesn't seem like it makes sense if everything's not right. Right. people are coming to the service 15 minutes before. Best case, best case scenario is maybe you need a half hour to do this. I
don't think you're alleviating the problem. >> I'm going to once again defer to the traffic engineer, but I will say this, the submission is that the attendant staff member of the facility would jockey these vehicles at least an hour
before the events occurred. >> But how is that? And I and I appreciate that. >> It's the nature of the use. First, you're dealing with senior citizens that are presumably participating in these services. So, it's not like it's just the run-of-the-mill populace. You're dealing with people that want to be in
this facility because of the religious services that would be offered. So, this is really what their lives center around. You know, it's uh I personally don't participate in that religion, but I can tell you that there are people that this is the centrist of their existence on planet Earth. But that
doesn't mean they're not shopping ahead of time to get >> That's not the way it is. It's not the way it is. This is the center of their operation. This is what they do. This is their the center of their culture that they gathered together on these days in order to participate in these relationship. >> Mr. Didn't you previously state that
this residents will be open to the public? >> Absolutely. But the market rate units, you would anticipate that if people are going to rent an apartment connected to a uh an Islamic center that they're going to be of that uh I'll say
ethnicity or or background. That's what we anticipate because we already >> there's no requirement. Correct. >> That's no requirement. >> With all due respect, that's going back to presumably to the assuming that everything's perfect. So, you know, we keep going back to what Mr. Josh just said. It's like they're open to
everybody last meeting. They're supposedly open to everybody now. But the only people are going to want to live there are people that are living there. It's kind of like you're sky. >> I can say this. If if you are going to rent an apartment in this facility, you're going to know that on Fridays,
it's a busy day and you would be required as part of your leaseold agreement to permit this uh I'll say limited access to your car on a Friday. >> So, this is going to be in the lease. You must put your car up in there. Are every is every spot in the garage there
going to be assigned to a specific unit? >> We're going to endeavor to have each one of the lifts assigned to a unit. There's 28 units. We have 20 22 parking spaces on the lifts. Now, we don't anticipate that every resident or every apartment is going to generate a car. There's
there's the potential. I mean, we have people that we anticipate being in their 80s that don't drive anymore or people that don't own a car that may drive. >> But again, you're going to the same thing under the perfect scenario. We will have people that'll be old enough where they don't have a car. But that's
not what we're testing about. We're testing about almost like common sense. And that's not I don't think it's cut in the mustard yet. >> Well, I can tell you this. The traffic engineer will address the issue about the manner in which the residents will
be I'll say uh utilizing the lifts as part of their arrangement and the goal is is to be able to take out of the equation the majority of the vehicles which would be generated by the residents. So the purpose is is to eliminate uh the residents's vehicles
from the parking demand so that we don't have to uh deal with a loss of parking spaces as a result of uh having these additional residences. So to answer your question, I'll pass it on to the traffic engineer to get into the details, but
these spaces will be operated or be utilized only by the uh residents or the staff members because if the residents don't drive, we're going to have staff members in the on these uh parking on these lifts. And then likewise, only staff members would operate the lifts themselves. So,
>> and you're going to have testimony about that, right? >> Yes. Yeah. >> Okay, great. I mean, listen, I I could easily just say I defer to this witness, but I don't want to spark the eye of the crowd by again raising that, but you know, I mean, look, I'm trying to give you the information so that they understand that there's a witness coming, but to give them some
information as to a preview. >> Understood. Was there any reason that you didn't put some of this down in a, you know, an outline of how who who will be operating uh the lifts, what kind of training they get, what other jobs they have in
advance of this meeting. >> Well, I mean, that's why we have the meeting. >> I mean, it seems like we're doing this on the fly. I tell you that. >> I mean, look, you have the gentleman here that installs the lift and he just told you that it takes one finger to press the button to go up and two to press it to come down. So there's no training necessary other than somebody
knowing how to press a button. So that the purpose of his test, >> you know, that's all well and good. They don't see well. Whatever happens, they push the wrong buttons >> into somebody else's car. >> It's going to be a staff member from the facility that's that's not 80 years old
that's going to be pressing the button. >> So pulling the car into the ramp. >> Yes. It'll be a staff member that'll drive the vehicle. >> Make sure they know how to drive. Well, it's a staff member that'll be driving the car onto the lift. It's not a It's no residents will be driving on. >> It's going to be a person 24 hours.
>> They're only going to be used Friday afternoons. >> Excuse me. >> The the lifts are are not going to be operable >> when in off hours, which is every other day other than Friday afternoons. The lift will be in the air and the parking
space below will be readily accessible for whoever wants to use it. Only the lifts will only be used at the peak parking time. So if you were to go by the facility any day other than Friday afternoon, right today, you would find three maybe four cars parked in the lot.
>> So it would be the Friday prayer service and other events. That's right. I assume >> there's no need to use it at any other occasion. >> But we have 28 apartments. So let's assume there are there are 28 people and each one of them
are driving a car regardless of their age. >> Correct? whether they're 60, 80, regardless. So, they're only going to be used. >> Yeah, because the lift will be up in the air and the parking space below will be open so they can park underneath the lift. >> But they're not going to be parking
their car. You just said you said there is going to be an attendant or a staff member that will be parking the cars for them. >> Only on the only on the day when there's peak parking demand, the like the Friday afternoons. So then the staff member will not be there other than on peak
hours and on a Friday. >> Correct. Because there's no reason to use the lift. >> I guess the equation like the resident asked about the EV car >> microphone. >> Yeah. Uh we we we received a report from
the fire official. Uh initially he wants no EV charging under the building which we agree to. uh it seems to be a common request throughout the state and then likewise we would agree that there would be no EV cars either on the lift or under the lift for the reasons of
concern of I'll say uh ignition >> but you can't guarantee that. >> Well, we're going to operate the lift so we'll select who parks on those lifts. So, as relates to a resident, a resident with a EV vehicle, if there is such a resident, they'll be assigned a space
somewhere other than under the building. Just a question on that. So, if the resident's car is up on the lift and a um person attending the service is an EV, who's going to stop that person from
parking underneath the car and the lift, right? We we would have to if that's a concern and I don't know whether it is a concern but if there is a concern having EV vehicles under the building or under the lift we would then have a policy where we wouldn't have EVs under the lift. I
mean if it's a concern I don't know if it's a concern >> now and again I was writing sir if I misheard I apologize. Did you say that the residents will have reserved spaces in >> it's anticipated that the residents would be parking or their vehicles would
be parked on the lift during the course of these services. So for that reason it would make sense to have a reserve space. We don't anticipate that the residents would generate that many parking spaces i.e. 22. It depends. Maybe they will maybe there will be a demand for 22 spaces. If there are then
we'll endeavor to assign those spaces uh to the uh residents so that those spaces could be easily controlled. >> So if a resident if a resident goes out Friday morning gets caught in traffic coming back >> the first service on Friday started
their spa their space their lift space is up there's a there's a person attending church the service underneath them. Where do they park? They'll have to find another space in the lot. >> Okay. >> And when they do calculations, it's like
RSIS, I guess, or whatever. They're not saying it's one car per. There's always one point something car. So, there are going to be some of those units that have two cars. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> I'm not trying to limit the the demand to 22 spaces. I'm just trying to explain
how it is that we're anticipating assigning these spaces so that we have control. get that, but we're just trying to run through the maturations of what reality is going to be on the ground. >> Okay, ma'am, I believe you might have a question. >> Yes. >> Can you state your name, spell your last
name, and provide your address, please? >> Yes. My name is Kimberly Leho, Lij. I live at 33 Skyler Street. So >> you said, >> so you said that these lifts can be moved, but I also know that lifts can
also be bolted to the ground. In what configuration are you planning on installing these lifts? Bolted or freestanding? >> You know, if you don't know, >> I don't know. >> Well, that's a major concern. What if somebody runs into the lift?
I mean, you're not I I understand your constant concept that you somehow think in a perfect world. I mean, I'm not trying to be sarcastic at all, but I've lived in this town for 15 years, and I know one person who has one car in a
twoperson household. So, the OB the concept that there's 22 units and there isn't going to be at least 40 cars is alien to me. But people are going to park there when nobody's around, when no attendance, when there's
no services on there's no holiday. And you're going to tell me nobody's going to try to park under this thing on their own. Nobody's going to hit a lift, knock it down. There's nothing that's preventing these things from being run into, damaged, damaging the building, or knocking over, potentially causing a
problem. Just to be clear, the parking spaces will be available for use by anybody uh when the lift is in the air. So, in non- peak times, it'll be open so the residents or whomever visiting uh presumably can park there. We're going to endeavor to limit the use of those
spaces to the residents so that we have control. we could be able to jockey the cars around on this one peak time, bearing in mind that the peak time is about a three-hour window once a week because other times there's no demand uh for the facility other than maybe 10
cars max. So to answer your question, uh the space will be open for parking presumably by an apartment resident at any time underneath. Now, the only time that it would be limited as far as uh you know them being able not be able to get in and out would be during the
service times when the space would be when their vehicle would be on the lift. >> Okay, but that's my exact point. I was driving 20 years when I drove my husband's car backwards into a tree. People make mistakes and elderly people do tend to have more accidents. My
mother crashes her car on a regular basis and she's 80. the concept that a resident, no matter how experienced, is going to be navigating, and let's not pretend these are not narrow spaces. They're going to
navigate a car into a spot where you cannot even tell me if that you that structure is going to be bolted to the ground or freestanding and is not going to hit that structure and potentially cause it to shift, move, especially with no cars on it. Because if two people can
move it with nothing on it, then what's to stop a resident from bumping into it trying to not want their car covered in snow by parking under the building and crash it into the building or another rack or another car? You You're not even
like giving us is this going to be a permanent structure fixed to the ground or not? >> Why don't you try to answer it? I mean, you could just as easily drive into the side of the building as you can the lift, >> but the building is people are going to
see the building. People have experience parking around buildings. >> We could put we could put steel ballards in front of every lift >> so that they hit the ballard first before they hit the lift. Put a steel ballard in front of every post of the lift. You're at this point from all the
options. You know, my pool was $75,000 and I'm $150,000 deep in it. You could add all the options you want, but bolted to the ground seems to make sense. And you're not even giving us any assurances that that would be. >> The lift is bolted down with 16 bolts.
>> You just said you didn't know if it was bolted or if >> the lift will these lifts will be bolted down. We don't always have to bolt them down. If a res if a customer doesn't want the lift bolted down, we don't bolt it down. >> Well, we're not talking about any customer. My question was these lifts
being bolted down >> with 16 bolts. >> This is information. >> So, your testimony is that with these lifts, they will be bolted to the ground. Is that correct, >> sir? >> Is that your understanding? >> Yes. >> Okay. You have another question, ma'am?
>> No. Thank you. Okay. >> All right, Mr. Oh, wait. Hold on. We have one more. >> Okay, sir. State your name, spell your last name, then tell the board your address. >> Kamal Kapadia. 189 Little Pipony Road. >> I have a few questions.
>> Spell your last name, please. >> Sorry. >> Spell your last name, please. >> Kapadia. K A P A D I A. >> Thank you. No chance. I think you mentioned earlier that total 22 parking spots and 22 lift will be installed in
the parking area. Is that correct? >> He asked the first I think he said is there going to be 22 lifts? >> Yes, there's 22 lifts. >> 22 lift each parking spot with the lift. So
total 44 poles will be stomped with the ground. Correct. 44 for the 22 parking 22 lift. Correct. >> Correct. >> Front. I'm talking about only one side where the car will enter. So total 88
but 44. >> One side. >> Agree with me. Now >> are you asking how many poles will be on each side of the lift? >> Yeah. Basically each >> So not total each post has four but when
you enter Yeah. So I'm 44 front, 44 in the back. >> Correct. >> No. >> 44 front, 44 back. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> You also mentioned that the lift will be only utilized at the time of service 3
hours I think. Correct. >> Yes. >> Okay. understanding. >> So when the service uh when the car will be parked during the service time we are definitely limiting the total number of parking spots which are 22 we
have put the uh 44 in front in the back those poles which is reducing almost 12 ft of the parking spots. So we are actually reducing the total number capacity of the the resident car
parking spots by installing this lift. That's number one. >> Why don't you let him ask answer that question? Okay. Is that true? Are do these lifts reduce the total number of parking spaces? >> I think that's the question. No
question. Agree. >> By installing those lift, we are technically reducing almost 12 to 13 ft of the space because you are stomping those poles 44 in front, 44 in back. So
we we are reducing the total number of parking space. Agree with me by 12 to 13 ft. >> Fair. >> Mr. Shephers, I think I know what the question is. >> Yeah, you know, maybe you can interpret it. I don't if the space is supposed to
be 9 by8 and what he's I believe what the gentleman is saying is that when you put this device in that 9 by18 space the open space is no longer 9 by8. I yeah I think that's accurate because the dimensions we have on the plan is the
lifts are 8 foot 4.5 in wide and 16 ft 8 in long. So the answer is yes >> and that's outside to outside >> I yes I believe that's what sh >> so is was that the was that the question >> so following to that yes thank you >> okay >> um
>> I no I believe that's the interior dimensions on >> the interior dimension is 8'4 and a half >> plus plus another foot >> again you're referring to the architectural plane >> correct >> which sheet >> uh 810
Now if I look at the average lift between the poles dimension, it's 9 ft 7 in between two poles for the one lift. 9 ft 7 in. Is that correct? Or the lift
that you're going to be utilizing. >> Uh I'm not sure if that's correct or not. And just to make >> that's a bare minimum distance needed for the compact car between the poles 9 ft 7 in. The plans
show that the that the that the unit is 9 ft I'm sorry 8 ft 4 and 1/2 in out to out not in to in. >> That's what that's what's shown on the plan. >> That's an incorrect measurement then. >> Okay. Okay. Well, again, it's it's on a
scale detail in the architecture sheet 810. >> But what's your understanding the proper width is? >> I believe the proper width is 8'4 and a half inside plus 6 in
on each side, which is another foot. >> Yeah. So, technically it's 9.2, right? 84 plus 6 >> 9 foot >> 9 >> 4 and 1/2 to the outside. Well, the space is only 9 ft. So it doesn't fit.
>> I don't have the dimensions. This drawing that we have is not correct. >> The average distance that needs to be maintained for the compact car between the poles is 9 ft 7 in. >> So my question is
if we do this if we maintain this distance for the 22 spots definitely it will going to reduce the number of parking spots. That's one thing. Second thing. Yeah, but but you're misstating that it's not reducing the number of parking spaces. The number of spaces remains the same.
>> No, >> we're not losing the number of spaces, but I acknowledge that the width is is being pinched >> because of this the insertion. >> Is the width being pinched just where the posts are? >> Correct. >> Okay. So, the rest of the spot will be
the 9 ft. Correct. That four spots or the two spots where the posts are will be A4. >> Correct. The gentleman was using those numbers. So that's why >> second thing during the um service those 3 hours
the limited parkings will be and the car will be on the air basically on the second uh in in the lift what happens to the non-service hours those parking lift will remain there which is reducing the total number of
parking spots based on what I mentioned earlier number of poles you are stomping with the ground right so that is reducing the total number of spots from the 22 to probably 19 in a nonervice hours >> no but that's not correct and the reason
it's not correct is the number of spaces on the ground remains the same I acknowledge the fact that the post would take up 6 in on either side but the total number of spaces on the ground remains exactly the same >> I don't think so the 6 in the dimension
that you're referring is accurate >> yeah If you were to count the spaces, the number of spaces remains the same whether the lift is there or not. >> You're going to have someone testify. >> Yeah. Look, I I'll say I can say in every one of your questions that we have a traffic engineer that's going to address these issues. Uh but I don't
want to not give you some information. >> So let's forget about the dimension aspect. Very simple question. in a specific area of the parking. If we are installing 44 and 44 back front and
back, 88 poles we are installing for the lift. Do you think it will reduce the total number of parking space? Forget about dimension just basic. The pole is width is a 6 in standard to hold the
7,000 lb way, right? So, do you think it will reduce the space for the non-service hours even? >> Yes. >> You know what? It's better that I have the traffic engineer explain it because my efforts to explain it, my efforts to explain it, it's just I'm not
communicating with you correctly. It's probably my fault >> rather than Mr. Shepus who is not here to testify. He's an attorney. Although he's he wants to assist in answering the questions, but your question really needs to be answered by someone who's
able to answer it. >> The gentleman sitting look he's sitting right here and as soon as we finish with this witness he's going to come up and he'll address your question. Fair but this is non technical non-statistical question I'm asking very common 22 parking spots we have you're installing
something 44 poles and for front and back you're installing >> I'll answer it >> it will not reduce the space at all >> well your question you you can come back up when the when the next witness testifies and ask that question >> thank you >> I believe one of our
>> so so what the point trying to be made is as long as that car is not wider than 8'4 in right it will still fit between those two posts. >> There's not a rail alongside the floor. And I'm not an expert on this. I'm just cuffing it here. >> There's not a rail on the side there. So
once that car goes between that 8'4 in and pulls into the spot, it's the regular width spot. So it doesn't take away from any spots else. There's 22 on the bottom. There's 22 on the top, >> right? >> No, it won't. It won't. As long as the car can get in.
>> So for each lift, there are >> two there are four poles. There's empty space in between. Yes. >> Right. >> Yeah. You drive right in. >> Think of a scenario. Total 22 spots space like this space is 22 parking spot. >> Yeah. >> You are stomping 44 poles in the front
and 44 in the back. >> But they're 8.4 ft apart. So if the car is not wider than 8.4 ft, it pulls right in. >> That's okay. >> You're not losing any spots. >> Let's not use the dimension. But >> we'll let the guy try. I try to help it. >> Okay. We'll let him. >> Why don't Why don't we wait for the >> Thank you.
>> for the other professional. All right. Thank you. Okay, sir. Can you state your name, spell your last name, and provide the board with your address, please? >> Hi, Vijay Namzushi. Harunfield Drive. >> You need to speak up, sir. I'm sorry. >> Louder, please.
>> Vijay Namzushi Haratfield Drive. >> And spell your last name, please. >> N A M J O S Hi. >> Great. Do you have a question for this witness? >> Yes. Uh, hi. So from the two vehicles set up in your left are there any
clearance requirements when the vehicle is below and vehicle is above the are there any clearance requirement from the uh manufacturer or like how much space should be left above
the vehicle in in in case of both vehicles. >> I don't know what that means. Are you able to answer that question? Do you understand the question? >> The question is if I park two vehicles in that lift, right? One below and one above. >> Okay.
>> Right. So let's say I park first vehicle, take the take it above, right? And then park the second vehicle. >> Is there from the manufacturer is there any specific requirement how much space should be left above the uh car that is
parked below and car that is parked above? No. >> So there is no specific requirement. >> As long as the car fits underneath with an inch of clearance, 2 in of clearance, the lift is not going to come down. If anything, lift goes up and then comes down.
>> I understand that it's so operational. But from the manufacturer, there is no such requirement to leave any space between them. Right. >> Okay. Fine. Another question uh is that when you park a vehicle, right? In this case it will be perpendicular. I think
that was brought up by another gentleman uh before me. So as I I assume that uh when the vehicle is getting parked it has to be completely perpendicular and there has to be one vehicle space to be available
before the vehicle enters the parking space right on the road. And that is that. So if there is another parking spot on the side and a vehicle is parked in that spot, how is there enough space
in this particular setup? >> I don't know. I'm not >> I I'm not sure I understand your question, sir. >> Question. >> I is your question about whether there's enough room to maneuver a car into the space?
>> Yes. >> Okay. I think that's probably for the next witness. All right. Thank you. >> Okay. Ma'am, can you state your name? Spell your last name. Provide your address. >> Barbara Demerest. De M A R E S T. I live at 709 South Beverwick Road. Question
not about dimensions. Um I believe you said that in addition to installing, you also do maintenance on these kinds of systems. Yes. >> Um, so my question is, um, I understand in in municipalities where there are a lot of these in commercial settings that
there are regular municipal inspections of these kind of systems. What kind of things would municipal inspections be looking at in your experience with maintenance? >> I'm not aware of any inspections that have to be done. I I read that in places like New York
where there are, you know, many of these kind of things, they're inspected every six months, but you've never seen an inspection done by a municipality. >> No. >> All right. I wonder what kind of capability we have in town for that.
>> Okay. >> Hi. >> Terrible. Uh, >> could you state your names by your last name and provide the address, please? >> Sure. Jill Rego, RA 38 Lord Sterling. I think it's still crazy that we're even considering putting a 28 apartment building. >> Question. I do. I do. Just one second.
On a residential single family road that >> you will have an opportunity to make comments. I promise I'm getting there to ask questions. where it's going is do you ha a have you done a geological survey on what sort of um
for bolting these into the ground um in that area since it's a watershed have we done a geological survey to confirm that that area can even handle um this secondly um what is the power supply >> let me answer that question and then you
can ask your next question >> have you done a geological survey No. Okay. You have another question. >> That's awesome. Um, what is the power s needed for this in this particular area? If the wind blows left, we lose power in
all of these neighborhoods. So, what's the power draw that's going to be needed for the hydraulics beyond the building in general? >> They're not all going to be run at the same time. They're going to be run one at a time. It's regular 110 electric
cord, 20 amp. That's it. That's all it is. >> And do you have an instance or or a rough like um general how much uh hydraulic fluid generally leaks from these machines and and what whatnot since it's it's a waterhed?
>> They hold 12 quarts. >> Any leaks? >> Thank you. >> Any leaks? >> Okay. Can you state your name, spell your last name, and provide your address, please? >> Dave Patel. P A T E L 16 Robert Street. You need to speak up. >> Dave Patel, 16 Robert Street.
>> Great. Thank you. What is your question of this witness? >> Okay. So, from what I understood, uh, the width of the parking space as is right now is 8 foot 4 in. Correct? as designed on the AR architect plan.
>> The current width of the parking space is 8 foot. >> The required the required width is 9 ft. There are some of the spaces on the site that are 8 and 1/2 because of the structural columns >> and we haven't quite gotten a firm
answer on how wide these lifts are. The plan shows the lift width to be 8 foot 4 in out to out, but that seems to be in doubt. >> Okay. So according to the web page of the particular lift they're talking about minimum width
>> the overall width on the lift is 110.25 in >> thank you which is 9'7 which is which is larger wider than the you know the design um parking space currently. Is there a question? >> I just wanted to clarify because we were
saying that it was going to fit into the the same number of you know parking spaces 22. You can't not possible >> he just testified to greater than 9 ft. >> So the the statement from this gentleman
is correct. If the posts are more than 9 ft wide on the outside dimension, I think that's the number you gave us. >> We just looked up the lift. It's 110.25 in wide overall. >> Yeah. Right. And that computes to 9.2
feet, but you've only got nine to fit it in. >> Excuse me. >> That computes to 9.2 ft. But the space is only 9 ft wide. So the lifts don't fit in the space. That's the width of the plate sticking out on the bottom, too. So, the width,
>> but you're going to need that plate to install, right? >> Yeah. But they can be moved around so they're not touching each other. >> You know, we we've got a plan that's not going to work with the dimensions given.
>> I mean, >> but the solution is to stagger the uh lifts and we don't know what that plan is. If you stagger the lifts to then you're going to bring the two plates which he
pulls a car closer together because you're staggering them. You're going to have very little space to walk between the two lifts. >> Oh, the issue of getting in and out is that's another issue all together. >> No, it's going to be issue for installation because if you can't if you install them that way, you cannot walk out. I I had a garage where I had four
lifts. If you install them too close, you're not not going to be able to walk out of that. That's right. >> Remember these lifts, these lifts are only going to go up five or six feet on average height person. You're not going to be able to walk between the two lifts. Do
>> you have any other questions, sir? >> No. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> All right. No, it's time. Uh, so you've had your opportunity. I think the board has uh would like to take a five. >> Yeah, you've had your opportunity, sir. >> You've already spoken, sir. >> Thank you. >> We're going to be taking a five minute
break, please. This is Sounds like Thank you. All right. I've seen Ray. He comes with another guy. Wait a
second. What do you see without sitting on pain? Soon as you get up, >> four is not a four. No, we don't. I >> mean, we don't
They are exactly three. >> Go. >> Yeah. Everything's go ask. Go ask him. Go answer. >> I don't care. >> You suck. Did you just watch the No, not
another one. You know what? First told you what I When you say I think that's Oh, we're going to hit hard. Whiskey. Please
I can tell You're off. Anyone persist? We're so 16 got him. Not close to the dress. Let's go.
He's always >> But I still borrow Okay, >> Laura, >> are we back recording? >> Are we back recording? Have we been recording the whole time? >> I don't see anybody up there.
>> Okay. So, while while they were on So, we're still recording. >> Yeah, we're here. We're good. >> Mr. >> Yes. Uh, well, Mr. Mr. Levini is here to answer any other questions. If he doesn't have any more questions, if we're done with his testimony, then we can move on to the next witness. >> Sounds like we're done with this testimony.
>> Okay. Very good. Mr. Levini, thank you for your time. Thank you for your testimony. So, I'm going to ask that you relinquish your chair and the microphone. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Our next witness is Craig Paraguay. Mr. Pargoy is a licensed professional engineer with an expertise
in traffic. He's the project traffic engineer. So, all of the questions that I deferred to the traffic engineer, here he is. as promised. >> I remember all of them. >> Yes. So, that being said, I'm going to ask you Mr. Paraggoy stand and be sworn and then place his credentials on the record. >> You raise your right hand, please. Do
you swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give should be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do. >> State your name, spell your last name, please. >> Sure. My name is Craig Paraguay. P E R E G O Y. >> Just make sure you use the microphone. Okay. >> Yep. >> All right. Miss Paraggoy, could you briefly state your credentials on the
record in the field of engineering and specifically traffic engineering? Sure. Uh I have a bachelor's degree in civil engineering from Virginia Tech. I'm a licensed professional engineer in New Jersey. Been a traffic engineer for over 25 years. I testify pretty much on a nightly basis in front of planning and
zoning boards including here in paren many many times in the past >> in the capacity as a traffic engineer. >> Yes. >> License is current and in good standing. >> And you've been accepted as an expert in that field of uh engineering in these various events. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> I offer Mr. Perroy as a traffic
engineer. He's acceptable. >> Okay. Very good. Mr. Perig, you were present throughout most if not all the meetings. Is that fair to say? >> Yes. >> Okay. You heard questions from the public. All of them. >> All of them. >> And you heard the questions from the public. You had opportunity to uh I guess more or less uh uh hear what was
going on, what their concerns are. Likewise, you've conducted an in-depth investigation as the sufficiency of on-site parking circulation and the like associated with this project for the ICC. Correct. >> Correct. So why don't you just briefly tell us what you've looked at and then you can walk us through your investigation uh what you've looked at
as far as uh field studies and then empirical data and then from there if you can give us your opinions. >> Sure. Um we prepared a traffic impact study uh it's been revised with the latest iteration of plans but basically the same uh sort of thing. It focuses on two things. One is the the traffic
impacts or the potential increase in traffic and if the roadways can handle it and then uh it focuses on the parking supply and uh site circulation and the layout. Obviously the parking supply seems to be the little bit more of the critical uh discussion point here but I will give you the the traffic part of it
too uh at the beginning here just to um complete the record and and give you all the findings in our report. We initially um got involved in this project in uh August of 2024. Actually before that, but we initially did our traffic council in August of 2024 and at that time there
was still overflow parking available at the church next door. Uh which has obviously changed as the course of these hearings have proceeded. Uh so we did want to take updated traffic counts since that change has happened. But those August 2024 counts, we counted the
the driveways, intersections of the uh site itself and South Beverwick Road uh from 7 to 9 in the morning, uh from noon to 3:00 in the afternoon, and then from 4:30 to 6:30 in the evening. Now, the 7 to 9 and 4:30 to 6:30 is what traffic
engineers typically count when we do traffic studies because that's the rush hour time period, the peak hour of the roadways. Here, the the the site is pretty much doing nothing. I mean, no, we had one car in and one car out in the morning, two in and one out in the
evening. So, this is really completely an inactive location other than that Friday afternoon services. So, when we went back to do our updated traffic counts since the the church parking has gone away, which um we did this past it was January 23rd of 2026, this past uh
January. Um we didn't hit the roadway volumes again because there's nothing really happening here. We focused on the times for the services and also got the uh volumes going in and out of Preston Road because obviously that's since the church parking has gone away that's become more in play in terms of this
application with the uh overflow parking there. Um so what we do is isolate between those those those larger windows the busiest hour within each of those windows. Now the services here are half an hour. So when I look at that midday hour, the
volumes going in and out are over two services. So one car has gone in and out than another car in and out. So it's it's a little bit more elevated because it's over an hour where you only have short services. A lot of religious facilities, the services are over an hour. So everybody's coming in in one hour and leaving one hour. This is sort
of the opposite where you have a lot uh more activity concentrated uh in terms of traffic volumes. What the key is though in terms of traffic is the additional traffic that's going to be generated by the residential uses that we're adding. Obviously, the Islamic Center is there. It's going to
be there whether or not this board approves this application and it's going to continue to operate as it does, but we are going to add some traffic volume from uh the residential units. I forecast that traffic based on the IT the Institute of Transportation
Engineers trip generation data for uh sen multif family senior adult housing. We have the age restricted component. Now that doesn't take into account specifically what's being done here. You heard from the prior testimony this this is entire application is being driven by
uh the desire for some of the existing congregates of the Islamic center who want to who don't want to drive anymore. or they don't want to deal with finding parking spaces. So, they would love to live on the site. So, that's really the target audience here. They're going to be given meals. They're going to be
attached to these religious services, their social activities. So, it's really almost an almost akin to like a congregate care facility more so than just senior adult housing. But I use the traffic numbers for the um senior adult housing looking to test that worst case
scenario. And even that those numbers are low. For 28 units uh development, the peak hour traffic volumes are between six and nine vehicles per hour. Generally, what's considered a significant increase in traffic when you would do a traffic study is 100 or more
vehicles per hour increase. So, we're at 10% of that. Coupled that with the fact that the site but for Friday afternoons is nothing's really going on. It's very, very quiet. Um, the only real time to focus on is that midday Friday afternoon
peak hour. And I am projecting traffic being generated by these units, but realistically, again, as I mentioned, the the target audience who's going to be living here is going to be captive to that Islamic center. So, they're not really going to be driving in and out during the services. Their cars are
going to be up on lifts ideally. Um, so they really wouldn't increase any of the traffic during that time, but I still did include uh some traffic, additional traffic going in and out beyond what we already have today. Point being, we want to we want to analyze what the future level of
service at these driveways is going to be with and without the addition of the 28 units. And that's done based on the traffic volumes that I've counted, the the lane configuration, stop control, so on and so forth. And the level of service is related to an amount of delay
per vehicle with and it's given a letter grade A being the best or the least amount of delay, F being the worst or the most amount of delay. And here the morning and the evening rush hour time periods, we're getting a level service A or B at that driveway. So it's it's it's
no problem for the small amount of traffic going in and out. When you look at what's going on now with the Islamic Center, the it's a it's at a level of service D for that busy window, that busy Friday afternoon, and it stays at a
level of service D when I add additional a few additional cars coming in and out associated with the residential. Again, realistically, they're not. Their cars are going to be up on the list. So what happens at the busiest most intense traffic time for this use is is not
really going to change with this application. But if it were looking at the worst case scenario, it still can handle the the few additional trips that 28 apartments would generate. So that's that's really the the crux of the traffic side of things. I think the parking has become obviously the bigger
issue and why we're in this larger room and why a lot of these folks are out here. So, um, >> before you get on to the parking, >> sure. >> Did you analyze the intersection of Preston and South Beverick? >> Yes, I did. We didn't do that the first go around at the peak hours because I
there was no need to. It wasn't really part of the application. It became part when instead of parking at overflow parking at the church, they had to start using Preston. And that is a level of service C during that midday peak hour. Rush hour time periods. Again, I didn't analyze it. It's quite a few homes on
there, but not as it's it's a similar magnitude of traffic probably as the 28. >> So that's that intersection is a C. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I should have mentioned that. I'm sorry. >> Is that both with build or no build? >> Build or no build because we're not adding any traffic to it at all. Nobody
who lives in these apartments is going to be using Preston Road. But we, you know, obviously as you, as you're seeing some of the overflow parking there, we wanted to make sure that we accounted for that. Uh, where was Oh, parking. All right. So,
first things first, the ordinance requirement. It's not really necessarily reality. We know what's actually going on. But if you look at the ordinance requirement, first off, for the residential, your ordinance just defaults to the RSIS, the residential site improvement standards.
They're applicable statewide and they give you a maximum number that you can that this board is allowed to require. There's no minimums anymore in the RSIS. So, it's a little strange the way a lot of ordinances that refer to it work. But if you do the calculation, the maximum
required for 28 apartment units, not age restricted, 28 apartment units built anywhere in the state of New Jersey out in the middle of Sussex County in the middle of nowhere. Uh the it's 1.8 per one-bedroom unit. 1.8 8 times the 28 units is 50.4 spaces. So 50 spaces. So
the RSIS is saying 50 spaces for this 28 for a 28 unit building. In this case, that's way overblown. We're not we're not even going to be close to that. But that's the number technically based on your ordinance. For uh religious facilities that in your
ordinance, there's a number of different ways to calculate it. It's um one space per three seats, which is kind of what we used initially for like the max anticipated attendance. But if you read farther into that, there's also one per 6 ft of pew or bench. You know,
obviously geared more towards a church use. That's not the case here. And finally, it's one per 28 square ft of sanctuary space for the observance of religious services. It doesn't include any altar or permanent display which is kind of in a niche in the front in this
particular case. So that doesn't apply and you or calculate a a circulation aisle around the space. So it's a little bit of a strange calculation. I actually put the the graphical image of it in my report because trying to explain it in words was a little much. But what it
comes out to is um we have 154 square feet of space for the observance of religious services. Now that doesn't include every space within the building just like a a church like you're looking at the the sanctuary
space where there may be CCD or Sunday school classes and a gathering hall for before and after services. Reason being those spaces aren't all utilized at the same time. The primary thing that's bringing people to the property is the church service. Those are all ancillary for before and after the services. It's
the same thing here. So when I take a look at that, 154 divided by 28, you get 54. And then there's a seating area that actually does have 21 seats. You heard from the prior testimonies for people who can't kneel or stand, so they use
seats. There's 21 seats in there. So that you would use the one per three is seven, which gets me to a total of 61 spaces required technically for the Islamic Center portion of it. Obviously, we're seeing a lot more cars come than that, but that's that's the ordinance
requirement and I think it's probably was developed based on experience with with with churches, which is probably more common in this area. Um, religious facilities, which have a different kind of mix, but again, this is just from the technical perspective. So you have 61
spaces required for the Islamic center, 50 spaces for the residential gives you 111 spaces required by ordinance. Uh we are providing EV spaces which do reduce that demand uh to 101. It's not really
applicable but uh technically the letter of the law says the parking requirement is 101 parking spaces. We have proposed at the end of the day 138 parking spaces. So technically there's no parking variance required. I don't think that really matters all
that much. That's the technicality, the legal side of it. That's just just putting it on paper versus your ordinance. Realistically, we have an existing operating mosque at this location. We're able to count the parking. We're able to see the actual parking demand. So what the
ordinance says, what any ITE calculations say, when anything else doesn't make any difference, we have it. We can we can spec we can specifically look at what's going on there. and get to reality. So, ordinance is very low on the requirement for the mosque, very high on the requirement for the
residential. So, what's the reality? Um, to start with what's going on there today, and again, this is what's happening now is going to continue happening. The the way these services are are going, if anything, you might see a little bit less demand and uh as
more mosques open up in the area, people obviously going to choose what's most convenient for them. Um, but we've done quite a few uh parking counts out here as things have changed. Again, we started off at a point where we had all the overflow parking was allowed to use
the Methodist church next door, which is fantastic. There was a little bridge that connected the properties. Worked out well. For whatever reason, one reason or another, they came to that first hearing and and we're not having that anymore. So, that parking has been disallowed. Now it's part it's basically
pushed that overflow to the next available public parking location which is across the street on Preston Road. So we obviously have been making efforts to minimize that overflow. We're trying to be good neighbors here. We've
brainstormed a lot of different ideas. Um changing the times of the services to try to make it not coincide with people's lunch breaks as much. Uh there's one service in English, one service in Arabic. Switching the two times of that. Uh putting a sign outside that says the lot's full and hoping that
people would then move on and come to come to the next service. Although that that one didn't work. That one backfired. But um we're getting to a point now where I think we've hit a a good level and there's staff in the parking lot now assisting people to park, which is a big help. Allowing
people to come in, you know, park in this space, park in this space. It's making things move along. It's also between services when people are leaving, get get out of the parking lot, go have your conversation down the street at Starbucks, don't hang out in the parking lot. So So that's helped. And I think in terms of the timing, um I
know it's it's specific. There's specific times that they can and can't have these services based on the religion, but I think we've got that to a point where it works uh as good as it's going to. and he's uh hired a security guard also to kind of stand in the driveway, monitor their situation,
sort of assist anybody who's crossing the road and generally trying to discourage parking on Preston Road. Ultimately, end of the day, it's it's public parking. There's I I sat I when every time I've done these parking counts and traffic counts, I've that's where I parked and sat there. There's
nothing that really really stops it. Um but again, we've looked to to try to minimize it. So, we've done actual counts during the service times, counted all the cars in the parking lot on several days starting
that first day that we did the traffic counts in August of 2024. Um, we also went back in March of 2025, August of 2025, and then again January of 2026. And we're looking for a typical
day, not necessarily like a holiday where you're going to have just like at any religious institution, you're going to have overflow parking. You're going to have a lot more. It doesn't really tell us what's the baseline parking demand. If I wanted to know how much parking my church typically generated, I wouldn't count it on Christmas morning
because it's going to be it's going to be an overflow. So, we're looking for the typical uh time period. And it's it's fairly consistent in terms of the total number at that peak time. Uh in August when we were there, there was 118
cars in the lot and six in the overflow in the church, which now I guess displaced the Preston Road. March 2025, 107 in the lot, but 12 on Preston Road. That was when we had the the driveway closed sign. I think that was that experiment. Um then August uh 20 22nd,
2025, 117 in the lot, eight on Preston Road, and then January 23rd, 118 in the lot, and 11 on Preston Road. Now, the lot has the capacity to hold 120 cars. So, you notice there's always a handful of spaces. It's it's becomes like the perception that the lot is full when there's still maybe one or two more
spaces in there. Um, and just to clarify that, I know Tom, you had that in your letter. There's 111 striped spaces existing, but in the loading area on the north side of the building, there's the ability to stack three, three, and three to add nine more. And that's staff and
employee vehicles that do that. Now, every time I've been there, they've they've stacked those nine cars in there. So, there's the capacity for 120 on the site. There's 111 striped. So, Mr. for Walker's plans have to show the stripe spaces, but for all intents and purposes for our conversation, we could
get 120 cars in there uh today. So, um obviously the introduction of the stackers we thought was a way to make sure that we aren't displacing too much additional parking to Preston Road. Ideally, none uh to Preston Road. So the
total capacity after this project is done with the stackers would be 138 spaces. So we'll be adding 18 parking spaces to the to the site. Some of the cars of the residents would be newly introduced to the site clearly, but I
think as I mentioned before the the target audience is going to be uh attendees who who go here who go to this mosque whose car would have been parked in the parking lot. Now they live there. they either don't have a car or I've already counted their car when I counted the parking spaces.
So that's the existing demand. We're we're again a total demand of about 125 on average on a typical day. The residential demand, that's the next thing. Again, the ordinance just goes to RSIS, which doesn't have any doesn't
even consider the senior aspect or or anything like that. So it's it's really kind of doesn't make sense here. First thing I do is go to the IT, the the the same thing that I used to project traffic. I can uh go to their parking generation manual. It projects parking
for senior adult housing. The average peak parking demand is 0.61 spaces per dwelling unit, which would equate to 18 spaces here. Again, we're adding 18. So, if that if that number bore out, we'd be right right on the number. Everything
that's happening today with the Islamic Center and the services stays the same. and the residential cars are out of the way. Uh Mr. Lemanit, your engineer, pointed out that that's based on only three uh study sites within the IT data. And he
makes a good point. Our firm has done over the years uh between 2011 and 2022 similar counts that the IT does at at facilities in New Jersey, senior housing facilities in New Jersey. And of those 17 locations, the average parking demand
there was 0.65. 65 per unit. So, a little a tick higher than the IT, but you do the math, it still comes out to 18 spaces. So, it's it's fairly consistent and clearly less than 50. That that's that's a a very overblown number of
vehicles for this um type of use. In fact, if I looked at the IT data that has a lot more without the age restriction, uh it comes to 0.93 per unit. So there'd be 27 cars if this was just a regular market rate. If there was no Islamic
center attached, no senior housing, I could sit here and justify about one per unit for market rate. So clearly we're going to be under that. Um I mentioned before that the way this operates with the meals being provided and the social services being provided and the the the
jitney to take people shopping and all that, it really is similar to a congregate care facility. That's that's a separate land use in the IT and it's uh defined as an independent living unit with meals provided and organized social and recreational activities. It's exactly what we've got here. If you look
at that, the parking requirement is even less. It's 0.36 spaces per unit, which would be 10 spaces here. So no matter which way you look at it, we're talking about less than 20 parked vehicles more than likely for the uh the senior
housing component here, not 50. So again, the ordinance is 60s something for the mosque and we're double, but we're less than half for the residential. So that's that's the difference between the reality and uh the ordinance. Um, and that's the reason that I think
the stackers obviously that getting the technicalities worked out in terms of the spacing and all that that's that's doable. I've done tons of applications with uh stackers, dozens of them. I've never heard such detailed questions about them, but they're they're installed all over more so in Hudson County at this point in garages, but
these these work. It's a good way to increase parking. And in this particular spot, I think it makes a lot of sense because you only need this parking for two hours a week. The rest of the time this parking lot is is empty. It's wide open. There's no issues whatsoever. So again, we could sit here and say, "Hey,
we meet the ordinance requirement. We don't need to do it." But in the effort to be good neighbors and at a pretty significant expense to put these in, we're looking to make it at least status quo. So what happens today versus what happens after these are built wouldn't be that noticeable to the neighbors in terms of
the parking demand. That's the idea is is to try to be good neighbors and and make this work. Um, again adding 18 spaces, I think 18 is around a pretty good number for the
number of residential units, uh, number of residential vehicles that we can expect. But even if it's more than that, a lot of those vehicles are already included most likely in my parking counts because they drove to the facility. Now their car would just stay there.
Um, I think that covers it for the uh the parking demand, but just check and make sure that I didn't miss anything that I wanted to say.
Oh, I know um Mr. Lman Mr. Lemanowitz's reviews. Um he was taking a look at two dates and again I we avoided uh the last day of Ramadan which is one of the holidays the higher holidays that's going to have an overflow of parking.
And if you think about it at the church or the synagogue that you go to the higher holidays often have the same thing. I know at my church there's people parking on the street on Christmas and Easter because that's when a lot of people go. So I don't think that's so unusual. We would like to have
a typical day not be any different than it is now. And that's the intent of uh adding the stackers uh and the and the additional uh parking for the residential. I think that covers the report for the
most part, but I know the engineering letter had some some things to go through. We go through those now. I >> I think it kind of makes sense because Mr. Lmanowitz raises several points which require to be addressed. So perhaps uh either you can just address Mr. Lammano with his memo. We received
the memo of April 13th uh two days ago and you've had opportunity to review it. >> Yep. >> Okay. So perhaps you can walk through it. >> Yeah. >> As it relates to traffic issues and parking issues. >> Yeah. I'll just touch on the ones that relate to the traffic issues. Um number eight, I already touched on the number
of uh parking spaces. Again, exit. He's saying there's a discrepancy in the documents. And I guess technically there is, but the the the legal number of striped parking spaces on site is 111. During Friday afternoon services, 120
can easily fit. So that's that's why that discrepancy is there. I'm just take I'm just acknowledging that we can fit the nine more. And it it really doesn't help my argument. I want to show a bigger delta between existing and proposed, but that's what's happening. Um uh number nine um was talking about that
those measurements to measure the uh the sanctuary space and he mentions that we didn't take out the altar or permanent display and I really I did it's just in that ditch Tom it's not like on the floor so I just took a >> skip
an item comment after the uh discrepancy comment has to do with the community hall which the architect says can seat 180 people and you need one space for every three. So that's 60 spaces for the 180. >> That's part of the that's part of the
Islamic center. So the the calculation for a religious facility only includes the sanctuary space for the observance of religious services. You don't add up all the other spaces. If this was a church, you wouldn't add up the coffee hall and the CCD classes and so What I'm saying is that the community hall
operating as a banquet hall with the mosque with the worship hall empty, the community hall needs more seating than your calculation for the worship because the the architect is saying there's 180 people in the community hall at one for
three. That's 60 spaces if there's a wedding, whatever. >> Right. But that's more than what you're having for the for the worship. >> No, I thought I had 61 for the
>> You said that you said that the worship space required 54 spaces >> plus seven for that that seating area, the 21 chairs. So 61 >> our original application we had, you know, we said that the most he's ever seen in there is maybe 200 people. So we did the one per three seats,
>> one per 200 was 67. It was higher. So the thought was just go with that. When when parking became a more important issue, I think it made sense to really dive into it a little bit more. That's why that change happened. Okay. Um
number nine was Oh, number 10 was the uh the other the other spaces and and should we be counting those other spaces? And again, I don't, you know, I think a a religious facility, whether it be a church, a mosque, a synagogue, a Hindu
temple, there's the sanctuary space and then there's a lot of other ancillary spaces. You wouldn't add up the parking demands of all the different spaces because they're not all used at the same time. The the thing that drives the parking is the religious service and then the ancillary spaces, you know,
that happen before or after or outside of the service times either have no I don't think that's the point that he was raising in paragraph 10. >> No, the point that if
>> is if you open the court on two different you were on three different things there, >> right? Yeah. >> My prior question on mine was the banquet hall seem to govern but I I I guess I missed the seven. I have to go back because there are those seven spaces in the small seating area in the worship. So that kicks that back up to
61 and And that's correct. So that so number nine I agree that um the worship the community hall doesn't govern. Item 10 is showing that the worship
space extends into the community hall and that was also testified to by the executive director that the women worship in the community hall on Fridays. Um, so this isn't a a once a year or twice a year
event like the ordinance contemplates um about special events and off-site parking if you get a zoning permit. This is a weekly event. So I don't think that qualifies as a special event. >> Yeah. And and I asked about that because I agree the way it was written. I agree with you that didn't seem to make sense.
But what happens is that community hall space Yes. the twice a year when there's a holiday or if there's a large funeral, which by the way, the second day you guys went to visit, it was a big funeral. Apparently, you know how to pick them. But, uh, the that that's then
maybe there might be some of the service space that spills into that. And just like uh, for example, my church on Christmas, the sanctuary hall fills up and they use the school cafeteria next door with a video feed to put more people. You're not going to provide the parking for those oneoff days. you're
providing it for the main space and then your mention of the women there. The way this religion works is the men and the women don't go to the service together. The services in the in the service hall are for the men only. What was said was that the women would wait or use that community hall to pray. They're not
participating in the services there. And it's very few honestly all the times I was joking earlier with the with the uh team today. I've sat out there and watched these services and people going in and out and it's it's 99.9% men going in and out of there. Um, but
the women aren't participating in the services there. That's sort of like the waiting area. Like if if you had a church that said only men can come in, the women might wait in the the front the foyer area. They're not partaking in the service, so it's not part of it. And then I saw you had in your review letter
a lot of these videos that is another good example of a a rare or unusual time where they would use both spaces. That's these are all taken during COVID. You can see everybody's got masks on that are six feet apart. So that's not typical. It was a good thing that they had the extra space during that time,
but it's it's not part of the the space exactly the way the ordinance says the sanctuary space for the observance of religious services. Well, the May 13th picture, 2021 on page
eight, they're not six feet apart. >> Were you always six feet apart during that time? >> Well, no. What I'm saying is that you're saying that they they opened it to spread out. Um, but again, that's not what what this is showing.
Uh, even on the August 9th, 21 spot. Uh, I mean, you can see people go all the way to the back. And as you know the the issue is not where if you have the space that the parking is based upon the available space for that activity and the available space here and is being
used as a worship facility um is the entire area. >> But that's not what the ordinance says. The ordinance doesn't say the available space that's possible for that activity. It says the space that's the sanctuary space for the observance of religious services. >> Right? And when those doors are open,
>> it's all one space. But if but that's what I'm saying. If you if you had a church that on Christmas and Easter had an overflow space, you wouldn't count that as additional seating for >> twice a year. This is once a week. >> Twice a year. >> They don't they don't use that other
space but for the few holidays the main service with the imam. >> The executive director said that the women pray they worship pray in the community room. He was incorrect. >> No, he wasn't incorrect. They they they pray there. They're not part of the worship service. In fact, they're
they're two distinct things. There can't be the one side the the the side where the service is, there's no food allowed, no nothing other than water to drink, but the community hall, the other side of the thing, you can you can eat like they're they're two distinct spaces.
That wall goes away for busier times, but otherwise it's just for, you know, if a spouse comes or a sibling comes, a woman who can't participate in the service, they can wait in that area. They're not participating in the service, but they may pray in that area. That's what he meant.
>> A question. >> Are you question you're testifying that >> during the service, the prayer service, the women that are behind accordion doors or behind the screen. They are not
praying. They are just waiting for the prayer service to be over so that they can do their own prayer. No, they may be praying, but they're not part of the the services inside. >> Well, wouldn't that be the same thing? They're praying. They're there. They're praying, aren't they?
>> Sure. But I can walk into a ca a Catholic church and go into the confessional and pray, but that seat doesn't count on the ordinance. It's not it's not part of the the sanctuary hall. It's an overflow space. And again, it's all a technicality because clearly we need more parking than your ordinance
says anyway. We're acknowledging that. really is just for the the the technical calculation >> before you leave that topic. >> Okay. >> Would do you agree with Mr. Lmanitz that if you were to count that area, you'd
need a total of 166 spaces >> for well his calculations? Yeah. >> If you look at page 11 of Mr. Roman with his report. >> I I I I agree with the calculations. I'd have to look at specifically because I
see here there's 40 occupants in the prairie area with share. So then would the number be greater than what I said if you included that? Yes. Would it be specifically what he said? I have to check to be sure. >> Okay. So you you have not done the calculation that Mr. Lmanowitz did.
>> Correct. >> No, I did the calculation that the ordinance requires. >> I understand. Well, you Mr. Loman Manowitz and you have a different opinion about what the ordinance requires. But regardless, my question is you did not do the calculation that Mr. Lman Manowitz did. >> No, I didn't. I I see what he put and it
sounds generally like it would be about that. But >> so do you have any reason to believe that Mr. Lman Manowitz's calculation of 166 paces is incorrect? >> No, no. I I I I that magnitude makes sense. What I'm saying is that specific
could it be 160 171? It's but in that order of magnitude I think what makes >> your point is you shouldn't count that area Mr. Womanowitz believes that you should correct >> correct >> and and just I don't know if you noted
it but the 40 the 40 occupants in the I'll call it seating area that came from the architect plans that said there were 40 people there. >> Yeah. I think one of the comments I think from maybe from Mr. Chadwick was to put the occupancy like I think that's just building code. Like you could fit
40 people standing in there, but they have 21 ch that's where the number came from. >> Oh yeah, I got you. >> No, I believe your numbers came from somewhere, Tom. I think you made them up. >> But yeah, that that's that's the
difference. There's actually 21. If you go on there and look, as was testified to, they're not awful. They're not used that often, but >> technically they're trying >> if if you heard from the prior testimony that that area that can technically fit
40 occupants, there's 21 chairs almost never are the 21 chairs used, but they're still counted towards the ordinance because it's part of the space observed for the sanctuary space for the observance of religious services. Sorry to keep repeating that, but that's what
the ordinance specifically says. >> I have a question. on this sheet we got there's a couple questions but when it comes to parking on on question six it says qualified occupants may permit
visitors who are not agequalified to occupy the dwelling unit for a period of not to exceed 90 days provided that such visitors reside with the qualified occupants for such period >> just Mr. Josith you're referring to the
Declaration of Yes. >> Deed of declaration and restriction that was provided by Mr. Sheff is correct. >> Yes. Just want to make sure the record was >> appreciate that. So line six reads that way. So if each unit of the 28 could have another person live
in there, what would that do to the calculation for parking? >> I I would have no idea. Do those people have cars or not? I'm sure in the 17 the three it and the 17 that we counted. the 20 different age restricted facilities,
not with a religious affiliation, is age restricted. Some of them probably had that. We're talking about actual number of vehicles parked in the parking lot at these facilities. >> But in this form, it's asking or telling
that there could be one extra person per unit. It's even qualifying that they could be under 55. So, they're probably more likely to have a car. My question is, how would
that impact the need for spaces? >> If if somebody was there on a short term with a car, there'd be one more car parked. >> So, you would So, this is asking for the ability to have >> 28 more occupants.
>> Saying it would be the reason I I think I know where you're getting at this. The reason that that's in there and that's I've done a lot of senior housing projects, too, and that's typically in there. because when the empty nesters move to this, when the child comes home from college for the summer, they want
to be able to stay there. So that that's kind of what drives it. So you can have a, you know, your your child your adult-aged child living with you for a short period of time in these houses. So that I think that's just boilerplate language that's in these. Correct me if I'm wrong. And you do these
>> it's a standard deed restriction for senior housing and it generally provides for like the uh age difference between spouses. So you could have somebody that's 62 and they have a spouse that's uh 58. >> Or you could >> it says visitors. It doesn't really say a spouse.
>> Well or you could have potentially somebody showing up on a short-term basis like a grandchild that uh you know is home from school and wants to spend a week with grandparents or something like that. >> That's what would think that whatever the reason that would create the need
for more parking. >> It it probably does, but that same clause is in the the senior housing criteria for the 17 in New Jersey that we studied and the three that were nationally studied by >> in front of us right now. You are
>> right. But but my numbers are valid because that same condition is in all senior housing. So I'm counting the actual number of parked cars. Maybe one, maybe 10 were of a visitor or somebody who's underage. I don't know. I mean, you can't associate it, but it's here's
how many cars were in the parking lot. Here's how many occupied units are in the building. And that's the ratio. We don't know who's who's they could have been visitors. They could have been underage. They could one one of the units might have had five of the cars where six of them had zero cars. It doesn't matter. It's here's how many
parked cars are generated by this many units of senior housing. And that's senior housing that is not providing meals. It's not providing social services. It's not providing a jity to drive around. And it's not connected to the the center of these people's lives, the religious institution that they're
moving there for. So those numbers are higher than it's going to be here. >> Yeah. My question is for better understanding and resolution this section, we should use the worst case scenario to make sure that we have
enough parking. Did you do that? >> Yeah, I believe I did. That's what I'm saying. And I'm not even though this is operating like a congregate care facility, which would I'd say you need 10 spaces. I'm saying it's operating like a regular run-of-the-mill any place
on its own senior apartment complex. And that's where you get that's where I get the 18 spaces. Realistically, I think you're going to have 10 maybe 15 of most cars by these parked here by these residents. But
taking all that out, looking at just the numbers that we have available for these types of uses absent the all the other stuff, it's 18. >> Just specific question on the IT U numbers. Uh I believe that that was for urban and suburban
communities where this is really semi-ural because the the the lots on Preston I think are 3/4 acres more or less. Um we have no no curb, no sidewalk, minimal minimal um shoulder.
We're not in a walkable community. So it's I don't know if that it is the correct one. uh if there is one for for because for pres obviously if it's a rural nature cars are more important if this was in the center of Lake Hayawa then you could say okay well you just
walk down the street and go to the store or whatever that's not an option here >> right that's why there's general urban suburban is just no no mass transit considerations no walking trips not considered they have that they have dense multi-use urban which is like a
you know Hudson County or or so and then they have center city core which would be like a downtown. So I general urban suburban is the one that doesn't take any credit for that. >> I think there's no rural and suburban is the closest of those three, but I'm not sure if it's accurate. I mean, and I
understand it's all you got to work with. >> Yeah, it's it's the one that accounts for just a typical suburban area, which parts of I mean, South Beverly Road is an urban principal arterial roadway. All I'm pretty sure all of
Morris County is classified as urban. It's not >> I wouldn't consider that area urban, but I mean >> well the IT is a national database. If you told people in Nebraska that parcipony was rural, they would be in hysterics. This is definitely not rural.
Our numbers are every time I do on the ground counts in New Jersey and compare them to it, whether they're traffic, most of the time parking, we're lower here because there's it's more urban. There's more ability to have mass transit. There's Uber or Lyft. There are
places in Kansas that don't have that. The IT is sourced nationally. So, the general urban suburban is definitely the correct use for here. >> Do you expect that the number of cars that park on Preston after this is built will be
roughly the same as current? >> Yes, I I would say so. I would say that if if the use of the stackers is the way to ensure that we're going to keep the same sort of breakdown whether this is approved or not and believe me we wanted
we wanted to try to make it better but it it's >> we need to accommodate the use that we're proposing and I believe that we are and probably going to have a few extra but I think the order of magnitude it varies dayto day some days it's six some days it's 12 it's going to be in
that same order with once this project's done Right. But it's possible that it could get worse. Correct. >> As a result of this project, I don't believe so. Could it get worse just because? Sure. But it that wouldn't have anything to do with it this project goes through or not.
>> And um did you take into consideration at all um the ability of people to safely cross Beverwick Road from Preston to the site? Yeah, the there's the the there's stopping sight distance available has to be on any on any road
available. So there's no visibility concerns and that was something that's been kicked around. I mean it's a county road so it'll be up to them like well maybe there should be a crosswalk or something like that. But I I'm concerned that if you do that you're going to encourage more people to park on Preston Road rather than going to the site. I
think a lot of times it's done now out of convenience. When I first got there the last time, there were already two people who parked on Preston and walked across and there were must have been 70 empty parking spaces in the back. So, I think a lot of it is just because it's easier. Hey, I can get in and out easier. I don't have to wait for
everybody else to leave. So, if we start making it even easier by putting crosswalks and things like that, I think it's going to make the problem worse. And as it is now, there's adequate visibility. I've sat there. I've watched tons of people walk across the roads. Not very busy at that time of day. I I
think it's better off to leave it alone. And you can as long as you're crossing perpendicularly at an intersection, it's totally legal. >> And there's no crosswalk currently, right? >> No crosswalk. >> And there's no sidewalks on Preston. >> No. >> And there's no sidewalks on Bever. >> Nope. >> And there's no light there. >> No.
>> And there's no overhead street light. Correct. >> No. >> They just walk perpendicularly across the road into the site. >> So none of those things exist in that location? >> No. >> Okay. And and like I said, I think introducing any of them is just going to encourage more parking on Preston. No matter you
could put a thousand spaces behind this and a huge parking garage. It's just easier for people. It was probably easier for them to park in the church. I got to get back to work or whatever it is. I I don't have to sit in the the queue coming out. So that's what that's what they're doing it for. And
>> and trying to like make that look like where I'm supposed to park, I think is going to make it worse. >> Mr. Shephus, would you u continue this at another meeting, please? >> Falling asleep, too. >> Yeah. What's the uh what's the next date?
>> The next date is June 10th, 2026, 7 p.m. at this location. >> Okay. I'd ask that notice be preserved and carried to the board's special meeting of June 10th, 2026, 700 p.m. at this location. Without need for further notice, I consent to an extension of
time for the board to act to July 1, 2026. That's that's all well and good, but I would ask that you consider renoticing on the wellhead protection issue. >> Wetland protection. >> Yes. >> Well, >> okay. You might I think that's another D.
>> And if there's at least a dispute as to whether it's another D, I would suggest. So, I would suggest that you you might want to consider renoticing for that just to make sure that we've covered that. I I believe that I believe it is a
D. I I I concur with you, but >> yeah, I'm not sure it's a zoning ordinance. I'll double check it, >> but I have ordinance here. >> Yeah, I would suggest you consider >> I have a motion, please, to continue. >> Motion second.
>> All in favor? >> Yes. >> Mr. Yes, ma'am. >> Your witness will be coming back at the next meeting. >> Yes, most certainly.