##VIDEO ID:d5dnnZIWuzI## for the 7:00 meeting no uh Nancy it plans to be here she may be a little late something about work Caplan and uh pad will not be here uh Casey sick yes he Casey sick where's where's the rest of the gang two are May two are May one one's a maybe we have five people we have five barely enough for a uh want to go okay uh are you ready yes okay announcement is made that adequate notice in this meeting has been given and that is being conducted in accordance with NJ sa 10 call 4-6 at se of the New Jersey open public meetings act and Nora please call the role burkowitz here josowitz here ready pres willing here arim present we also have with us our board attorney Mr King our board planner Mr Mr Chadwick and our board engineer Mr Holloway okay let's start off with the Pledge of [Music] Allegiance Al to the FL United States of America to the stands na godible andice at this point in this evening's meeting is there any member of the public has anything to be brought to this board that is not on this evening's agenda I hear see none uh right we're going to call case application 20 colon 54 Danny reality even Mr James Turtle tab from the law the turtle tab Law Firm on bef the applicant in this matter and uh just to bring everybody you're here back on June 4th we got through most of the testimony there was an issue still outstanding which we had ask to address which is the uh use uh which I'm prepared to do tonight also since the last hearing uh We've submitted a traffic control drawing which Mr Chad raise questions which we have our traffic engineer Nichol fesi here this evening to speak to those questions if there's any questions that you given Stu but to remind the board what we're looking to do is take the property which is at the corner of New Road and Route 46 and redevelop the building on the site with take that building down construct a new building which would house and I'm here prepared to say tonight a Dunkin Donut operation uh we had kind of danced around at the last meeting because there were still some issues to iron out but I'm here tonight to say We'll commit to a Dunkin Donuts if there's a change in use at some point in the future we'll come back before this Bo board so chooses which helps us to get the testimony uh it helps you understand a little more the application as well because the testimony has been especially that the ex that the U number of Park number of cars typically in the queue based upon past experiences in data would be between eight and nine cars this que has 13 cars it can do it normally there only one menu board we have too many boards to speak through the process so clearly we have overc capacity with respect to the drive-thru and the ability to handle the number of cars that would be coming to the site that being said uh since the last meeting we did provide you a traffic traffic control exhibit which uh shows some of the things we discussed at the last meeting one was adding they do not block the Box area at the entry on New Road the other was the striping that be put in on the pavement you can work with the the engineer if they want to be more visible whatever the case may be but to help aid the traffic understanding added those there we think help address some of the things we discussed at the um at the last meeting so I do have Nicholas Veri here tonight uh we are committed to doing the Dunkin Donuts uh with respect to the questions that were raised by Mr CH in terms of the drivers being able to understand what they're going to be doing we think that the site markings that we're going to be putting on sign there will traffic the site uh we answer any questions or to bring us something into where stand U councel just before we start um the at the last meeting meeting you were going to limit it to a um donut type facility not a burger not a chicken that's still that commitment is here tonight can be a condition of approval my client is thank you for the record uh Miss Snider is here you may proceed let me ask you question the remainder of the building they had taken what 400 square F feet or a little less the entire building will be for the coffee shop use with Dunkin Donuts use that's not what it said on the plan they will be for the entire Dunkin Don does that mean that the plan showed 300 J almost the retail I'm sorry the retail component there'll be there'll be some snacks that will be uh not Dunkin Donuts products but there will be some shelving for some additional items that are there you'd like some testimon I can bring Mr P that just Dougan Donuts is going to pair up with some kind of a convenience Outlet or yeah if I can I'll call are you were you sworn last I was John is dynamic engineer and you still understand you're under Road yes I am thank you uh just to qualify that's a breakdown of the pon area which backs into the parking calculation the entire building is Dunkin Donuts and only Dunkin Donuts there's no convenience door component at all it's all dunin Donuts so do you still need a kitchen area um there there is it's a kitchen that's the back of the house but there's 315 back the parking calculation for your ordinance that's the only reason we broke it out there's no seats in the th000 S foot left door correct no seats so what do they do walk it's just it's a SE area where you walk in align to what your we yeah that's all it's only 300 it's barely small I'm not making myself on the plan you've got 388 Square ft which is the Duncan Donis place right the whole building is dun Don then you have labeled retail approximately 1,000 s ft right the plant the building itself is 1,475 the entire building there's a small area in the front which is a patron area which is the 38 ft the whole building to 1100t would be the the bathrooms the the kitchen area um the counters where the weight staff is it's a it's a, 1400t do bonance with no seats with no seats you have no problem I think just the only reason we put part are they making the donuts there no this is too small for the donuts well because because shows a kitchen area I just want what are they going to make what are they going to make in the kitchen don't they make the sandwiches I thought they just throw them I thought they just pop them in a microwave that's on the counter that's what it is coffee machines and all that still have to clean it mhm compartment sink and all that Mr chairman I um now it's been dedicated to a Dunkin D I feel much more comfortable with what they're showing on the plants as far as the queue and the do not block the box I would like the traffic engineer um we did discuss if it was going to be a Starbucks or something U we did discuss over the phone um in that situation we might be thinking about closing off the new road driveway completely and make people just go in off rout 46 um just next to out the new road and with the Dunkin D that's coming in I feel very comfortable that that their their cues are much smaller from my experience yeah but that doesn't stop from being the Starbucks at some point does it well that's what we have to we we will make that a condition of approval uh it be limited to a Duncan at this point in time or if uh if you want to exclude a Starbucks is being used we're happy to do that right now the plan is for Dunkin Donuts to be in this site we understand the board's concerns and that's why we're TR to narrow narrow the the issue we're asking you for varant so the least we can do in return is try to make it as narrow of of a scope of of the use as we can we're doing okay so I'm I'm unclear about this so so what you're proposing is that all entrance comes from 46 and just the exitus comes no Stu that was something we discussed it was going to be something like a Starbucks we had to got it they designated dou and D all right [Music] complaints you can proceed with your Witnesses okay been prev as well good evening I'm just going to explain a little bit about some of the uh the striping and signing modifications that we proposed so I'm I'm I'm just going to use a regular exhibit and kind of walk you through what what we added uh from the last meeting from some of the discussions um so someone ERS off of 46 of what we were trying to do um we're changing this Arrow to be a right turn arrow kind of guiding the people for the drive-thru so it says drivethru with a right turn arrow we want to guide them around the canopy so they're pointing straight into the drive-thru as opposed to um having them come essentially directly have to make the left across the people entering um so we felt that that was a nice longer area it doesn't impact the uh the parking and and the the activity of the canopy additionally we added uh some uh identification signs for the drive-thru one on each side as well as some signage that is supplemented by a do not block the Box area uh in the entrance what that's going to uh help alleviate is when someone comes off a 46 if for some reason this was the Cadillac of dunin donuts and everyone wanted to come here the mecca of Dunkin Donuts and there was an extra car stacked that came from the north side we didn't want them sitting in the driveway's throat um so by putting that do not the block do not block the Box that'll uh help alleviate that with some supplemental signage as well again that was all above and beyond uh what we had presented at the last meeting any questions on it well I think we also had a little discuss the last me about the canopy is not being moved at all is that correct it is being moved yes okay there was discussion about moving it down a bit more is this is that depicted in this final drawing because I don't see that or am I missing that I'd have to look at the survey to see um maybe John can me out that would alleviate that other problem you're talking about right now right right now the canopy it would be tough to turn right in off of uh 46 and make that swing around so yeah it's it's actually is pushed down so there's a let me get the dimension for you thank you there is um 30 it's labeled that might be the setback so about 35 foot so the aisle at this corner of the canopy is about 35 ft wide so someone that came in has a really large swing area to come in that direction so yes it is pushed down about almost 40 ft actually more than 40 ft from the highway so there's a big area there and how tall how tall the canopy again uh guess 136 I think usually on the underside a little more uh but it meets you know whatever Highway standards for tractor trailers if if one had to drive under the corner of it it meets all the normal canopy sizes I think D fire department wants that 14 clear under yeah it probably is um I know on the highways we do a minimum of 136 uh some canopies we do 14 some 146 you make it subject to the fire dep it's fine what whatever they'd like we're happy to make the count be that that height so to clarify for me the only thing that was a sticking point for me was the objector that was here that day was concerned that the queue would back off back on the new road and impede the exit from their strip mall next so you're that was with 13 cars is that what it was so we we can fit 14 in here inside and then if it started to stack out we'd have say a 15th in the aisle the 16th maybe the rear of it was in the road 17 18 we'd almost be to about the 19th vehicle and that would be if everyone came from New Road right it's going to split you know about 50/50 so some of smoo out so that that really you're saying the average queue is nine normally nine okay for Duncan yes so can so to that point uh we're back to my original questions in previous sessions around the Duncan Donuts in East Hover that is uh near the proximity of 325 uh Route 10 eastbound side so in this scenario there's no breakdown Lane um in that scenario there is somewhat of a breakdown Lane I don't even know if it's a designated breakdown Lane but nonetheless it's a lane where the excess traffic can H up and then in addition to that if I'm not mistaken the configuration of that Dunkin Donuts is pretty similar um to I guess what's proposed here as you stated meaning a confined area no seats no no chance to sit and dine um I guess all the walk-in traffic is just going to be standing traffic getting their coffee and and getting their U stuff and leaving um and so in regards to that queue on Route 10 um it it bleeds into that breakdown Lane and it's more than what you're representing here yeah so I looked at that I remember at the meeting you mentioned it so I went quick on my phone to check it on Google so that's a single Lane uh drive-thru so they don't have two order boards so they're technically because there's two drive-thru Lanes here there is kind of a breakdown Lane I guess interior because if you're in the left lane you broke down for some reason the cars can continue using the order board on the right side uh in this facility I looked at hand I'm pretty sure it had only about a 10 car stack before it was out on the road and that was a single order uh board we have about 14 in here so to get to the road you're looking at you know 16 or 17 to get out there okay and so to the Dunkin Donuts that's less than 900 ft west of this are you familiar with like the the the Dynamics of the par parking and the the morning Drive traffic and The Obedience or lack thereof regarding striping and parking and double parking I I don't know the site specifically and how they're parked there but I know it's it's just a walk-in facility so it's a little bit different well a lot different than this facility so you'll have the option to use the drive through or the the parking here uh if needed so if that one's spilling over and they're getting more than the parking is what I think I'm I'm hearing from you um those people more like probably normally we get probably upwards of 70% of the customers go through the drive-thru so you're only going to get about 30% so so that reference to the West uh to the one 900 ft west of this particular facility is referencing more of The Obedience of the intended striping and and and everything else um so what what is the adherence to uh the ratio of adherence among customers when you stripe these types of sites um we find the vast majority do obey the striping what's what so what's that I don't your professional guest I can guess over 90% of the people are are obeying um but yeah but if you get you know you get that one person that doesn't you're going to notice it because you know the one person that ignores it that's it thank you you're welcome any other questions by the board there there's not going to be any stools or um Ledges or anything and you know relationship to no seats but there's not going to be no it's just a grab and go I have two questions the traffic coming eastbound on 46 turns in this driveway should we have a sign on 46 telling them that they turn right uh no extra sign is we have the arrow on the pavement that has the right I'm looking around the parking lot am I going to look down at the pavement yeah the the the truth of the matter is going to come right around that corner about 90% of their customers are the same people that are coming to their stores so they all know hey I come in I'm going to the right you know there's a 10% and if you get 10% that of the people that came in so if you had you know 25 in an hour and three of them went straight we're killing us is a reason you wouldn't want to put a sign there I can add a sign I I personally think it's Overkill but we can add a sign if if you the the the other thing is the Box assume you're wrong and that the stacking area is filled the car is going to be stopped with his tail sticking out into that on New Road or not no no okay how do you how do you figure that how how do you figure that it's not going to be sticking out in that far right lane where the majority of traffic is trying to make or navigate that right hand turn coming from New Road to 46 because there's about 30 ft from the drive-thru Lane to the road okay any other questions about board we're are we trying to prevent anybody making a left turn off a new road into that property um we we are adding a sign that's not currently there's four or even six Lanes there but there are you got to be real crazy yeah um it's funny we did traffic counts in no one actually made the turn during peak hours you maybe at 10:00 at night you I might make that uh attempt but no well is the is a turn in a 90 degree turn or is it uh yeah 90° yeah you turn if you were illegally turning is a backrack so if you're coming off a new road going north making a 90° turn into and then you got to and then you got turn another 90 but there's we ran all the templates and it works fine for the for the uh 19t long vehicle which covers the larger pickup trucks any other questions it does not appear as any of the members of public here so we'll go to the next witness unless Mr mcon has a question I I think those would be the only witnesses that we would have then for this evening that's it uh uh okay uh for the record there are no members of the public here so I will not ask for comments motion to go into conference so move second Snider any discussion all in favor I anyone oppos I would just like to stay for the record we only have six members here and you're entitled to seven now you can hear what the conference says tonight and you can then ask to carry the case if you don't like what you hear that's a very I'll give you that I'll give you that option I will I will take that option it's a very generous option than we try to be as generous as possible my generosity is only exceeded by my handsomeness no comment here on Mr chairman Okay who wants to start I guess I will I like it I think uh it's it's a good spot for it I think you addressed the main concern of the traffic coming out on New Road um makes sense to me so I'm going to be in favor of it okay I I'll go next um I'm not in favor of it I see this as backing up well into New Road despite the two lanes as opposed to the one uh as they compared to uh the East Hover uh site in addition to that we have a Dunkin Donuts less than 900 ft away on the westbound uh excuse me on the eastbound side of 46 West of this respective property um and I just I just see this as intensifying this this already intensified intersection and I I from a traffic perspective I don't see this as being safe um and I and again I see that long line and I don't uh with all the respect to the testimony i u respectfully disagree in regards to theh uh with the striping that will further cause the The Log Jam of traffic coming down New Road onto onto the site and of course there's always um the concern of those crazy drivers as Mr burkwitz labeled uh who are desperate for that I guess the Duncan versus the Wawa to um totally ignore any um any any signage or um you know traffic uh traffic dangers as it relates to pulling into that law so I'll be voting against it can I can I ask M stunner a question so don't you think being that there's another dunk of donuts on this in this one of the traffic patterns that that would decrease the likelihood of there being an issue you don't think so no I don't I think practically what's going to happen if this place opens is that one's going to close like of business yeah could be but in addition to that no to your to your question no because I I my concern is actually log jamming that already congested intersection and you know we are dealing uh like I actually you know travel there on multiple you know different day Parts in a day and it is clogged it's not necess it's not a morning versus afternoon Drive type of thing and then of course when people return to work that's a whole different Dynamic that we really don't have current research on now you know they the experts have provided guidance in regards to what that traffic flow is going to be but it it will clog that area and we've already approved projects um regardless Starbucks and there are already Dunkin Donuts out there that where it does spill over and you know maybe the East Handover is not the best um you know com direct comparison meaning they're one lane and this is two lane but you you build and they will come and they will come and they will congest you know that that area there's a great potential of making that intersection even more congested I you know I I just don't and with the Dunkin Donuts just less than 900 feet away on the westbound side and of course W down new road I I I see this as a traffic haer I'll be voting against it thank you m Snider Mr Burkwood would you like to go next sure generally I'm very I don't know if liberal is the right word but uh I think people should be able to develop the property that way they want to uh so long as it doesn't is not a detriment to either its neighbors or the town here I just think I agree with everything that M Schneider said uh I'm going to be voting against it uh in addition I was just I just thought I just thought my head with uh somebody going south on New Road making a a left turn on the 4 6 is then have to cross a lane to get into the driveway to pull in I can't imagine that that's not going to cause problems during a a busy uh traffic time I'm going to be voting against Mr will uh obviously we have concern about the congestion area I what I not clear on haven't or don't recall is the current level of traffic visiting this existing business site okay uh versus what the Dunkin Donut would be so we've had testimony about what the dunin donut traffic may look like do we have any uh testimony as it pertains to the amount of increase in traffic will be in and out of that site during the rush hour mornings and I don't if we if you said that I'm sorry I didn't record it but that would be a concerned because from my standpoint uh you've done a good job presenting uh your traffic flows and number of cars and whatever and alleviating the stacking Problem by putting two drive-thru boards okay I think you've addressed that very nicely uh moving the the uh canopy down addresses another concern I had uh at the same time I don't think that there's going to be that much dramatic increase in traffic because you put the Dunkin Donuts in versus what's already there uh and if you had some testimony that could validate that for me I would be a lot more strongly in favor of this application but I haven't heard that testimony so so you're a yes or no or maybe you want more information I'm a yes at this point but uh I would like to have a little more information on that if possible that's okay okay who am I missing they uh ready yeah uh applicant made a very good improvements on moving the canopy inside and uh making the good good amount of space coming in inside into the from 46 as well as they address the traffic flow and main concern was the neighbor they were uh they were objecting that they uh from the neighboring place they may block their traffic but the testimony provided today I'm very happy that there is enough space like 15 16 cars behind the and so uh is a very very good improvements so like a business versus uh you know these things I'm in favor of this thank you Mr ready uh I'm just going to interject some information that I heard um just the other day somebody asked me something and it turns out the property's in Montville uh Wawa is U building a major uh facility just east of the property on the westbound side uh they're taking over the old uh supas restaurant that whole that whole corner corner Avenue and Chang of Road good good bad or indifferent for this application I don't know you know first first of all I'm sure you're going to ask carus right I will all right so I'm going to tell you my thought at this point I am squarely on the fence I have a lot of reservations um but the other hand uh I don't think this particular property will sign this particular application will significantly um add to be a detriment to that intersection intersection sucks I mean if once again if the state had been smart they would have taken that property and put a right-hand Jug Handle and then everybody would have been happy that's what that's and because that was a closed gas station when when the when the when the thing was improved was a closed gas station uh once again just like they did up here on Cherry Hill Road they allowed a piece of property to get away and create Havoc for us I'm clearly on the fence I'm clearly on the fence the information that Mr willin now presents that he'd like to see is interesting and that may push me towards the towards the affirmative so maybe if you want to come back and and um reiterate that particular part of the you know where where we're at with increased I think that's very important I I I would like to have that opportunity if the board is inclined to reopen the record to be able to answer Mr Will's questions I I would going to offer that we try to be very accommodating you know as much as I possibly can and I know you hearing this now gives you an idea of what you need to do absolutely all right so uh motion to Comm out of conference so so you're asking to carry this case without further notice and with whatever extensions are required yes as matter of fact I'll write a letter make sure that I get a letter outut give EXT he's also asking to reopen re ask him to reopen the case and our lovely uh secretary is now going to be into her magical book put a magic wand on the calendar and come up with a date how much time do you need this year or next year well can we do another half hour another Happ now hopefully will get us through it uh the testimony that I understand we need to provide you is is the existing and the differential which will provide you and then if there any other questions that we can we can resolve we'll certainly do that at that time this is a table support narrative correct yeah so the table will get here sometime before the meeting night like 10 days the table I believe is already in the traffic reports that are provided but we haven't given testimony possibly to some of what that table showing the added yes we'll we'll have we'll have it well in advance of the next meeting but 10 days at least before the next meeting but I believe it's already in the materal traffic reports are tough to read sure cure sure cure for insomnia if the board if the board if the board would be acceptable to the board since we have a focus as to what the board is asked for I would be happy to have that information taken out of the reports and put into a separate document we will more than 10 days before so that way you I have to figure out where it is so we can get it email to us okay so Nora can we do a half hour before another meeting by any chance I oh not not unless we can get seven people I mean maybe that's maybe that's shooting ourselves in the foot let's just go with it we have we're booked with half hour special meetings from now through October 20th okay um maybe why don't we try can we put them on September 29th try sticking you on there a regular meeting 7:30 if you only need half an hour I don't see yeah do seven do do what was the date se9 that's going to be the regular meeting very good I confirmed with my experts I believe there two out left we have Mr ver he's going okay motion to carry 20 col 54 Danny reality to September 29th without notice and with um uh acceptable um extension Mr will second by thank you Mr jitz any discussion all in favor anyone opposed okay we'll see you on the 29th Mr chairman M and board members I do appreciate your Indulgence and all of this coming in early tonight for us and look forward to seeing in the 20 thank you thank you thank you no problem I guess we can call the next Mo all right do I have a motion to adjourn special meeting second any discussion all in favor I anyone opposed okay so we have gone through that now we go to you ready to do the next meeting um already need time you ready okay much ready here announcement has made that adequate notice of this meeting has been given that it is being conducted in accordance with njsa 10 col 4- 6 at SEC of the New Jersey open public meetings act please call the RO Nora B boy here Jos boy y ready president Snider here willings here I President we also have our board attorney Mr King our board planner Mr Chadwick and our board engineer Mr Holloway president all right we did the Pledge of Allegiance at the first meeting so we'll dispense with that is there any member of the public that has any business to be brought to this board that is not on on this evening's agenda hear none see none uh the resolutions can be done by Burker with Jessica with Kaplan perq ready and willings Mr Willams would you like to move um 21 26 21 27 28 39 03 53 26 16 18 M chairman I saw move second by by Mr ready any discussion Nora call the rooll on that bur yes J yes kapan ready yes willing yes okay that was quick resolutions are done we now have application 20 Richard Faz fazari fazari come on up come on up at the table who's are both of you going to provide testimony could you raise your right hand that was quick you swear affirm testimony about before boards hey God and for the record can you state your name Richard J and you're the owner of the subject property 12 profit Fox Run yes I thank you you're swor you may Sit down you're you're no right here you're you're a better man than me cuz my wife will be right next to me cuz she does recog she can't talk now right okay uh you want to construct a pool deck yes all right so why don't you tell us about I guess you have a pool is that correct yeah we have an above ground above ground uh that's already in place um we want to put a deck around it uh I think it's about 120 ft so that we can sit up there and keep an eye on our kids and not be 50 ft away from on our regular deck so you can see in we had one in the old days when my kids were young we had to the deck coming out of the house yeah out of the back of the house and the pool was right over it was like having an inground pool my wife could stand in the kitchen it was it was fantastic it was a great concept we wanted to do that as well but the sun was in the other corner so we kind of all right so you're you're looking for Di Minimus um is the included coverage that's correct without that would be I would be I'm getting for that first of all your your requests are di Minimus you're talking about a little more than 1% on the yards and Courts open deck and your impervious coverage you're asking for 1.2 the interesting thing is your pool we have to classify as imperious coverage now and pool is a water collector it's not impervious coverage so unfortunately you're over the over the thing because of that uh and that's all you're asking for no sidey yard no rear yard the your pool's already there you have no complaints from your neighbors that you're partying too much alcohol at a minimum I'll see the on that one okay um any questions by the board none Noe okay any members of the public have any questions of this witness on a testimony given I hear none and see none there's nothing else you'd like to hear this is quick isn't it uh are any members of the public wish to speak in opposition to this application in support of this application I hear none and see none someone like to make a comment oh yes sir I just wanted to point out there was a engineering office letter and it talked about possible um building on easement and they wanted a letter toh confirm that it wasn't on easement there were three comments made by the division why don't I have that no why don't we have that only you have that I don't have June 25th 21 Richard it's not our do you have a do you have that letter I have okay now you can't talk unless you get sworn in so I told you I I told you you you didn't you didn't pay attention Okay so do you understand what the letter says Bas it said if we have any water problems we will Rectify it with no that's not that's not what he's saying it says that you're relatively flat you to make sure you're not going to you know with the neighbors going to cause any problems but also says that um because we're just working off a sketch and there's shown on on the plans that there plans are some easements there and we don't know where you are Rel to the easement yeah so we would need confirmation in a letter um to the engineering office uh regarding um well they they would they would need to agree to take that take it down if it they don't so they don't want you you can't build on an easement okay so you you would comply with all the requirements of the town's engineering letter and you understand that if you do do any construction on that easement that you'd have to take that down so it benefits you to make sure you know where that easement is and not yeah they're looking for that Andor and that if there is something to be worked out okay okay so you we're going to make that part of the resolution it's just a little additional okay uh this is the minim we don't need to have a statement this is the very Di minim someone frame a resolution so we can move on application 21 col 11 Richard Fel 12 Fox Run block 98 l 10.30 zone R-3 to issue or Grant C variance to construct a full deck contrary to section 430-10 I and section 43035 column 13 in compliance applicant agreed to be in compliance with the engineering report second Snider second Snider any discussion nor call the rooll burit yes Jos yes ready yes Snider yes willing yes Arcane yes result of the Varian is granted now just going to give you one little caveat this will be memorialized on our first meeting in August which is August 11th at that point you'll be able to get your paper presing you can proceed with your building permits or whatever else you need okay okay enjoy thank you very much okay all right appreciate you're welcome thank [Music] okay what newpapers [Music] something okay C uh this is application 2121 uh Patel 27 ad delire Road this is a continued hearing from June 23rd is the applicant here please come [Music] forward now for the board I'd ask Mr Holloway to go through the town memos and kind of give us an overview of what everything is that's being said okay so that we can get a better understanding you can you are you going to provide testimony they're sworn okay you're sworn you're sworn were last you were both here last time right okay you may sit down okay Mr chairman um basically we have a mail from the construction official that talks about the construction code definition those chairs folks if you like of a of a third Story versus what a ordinance might refer to as a third story in some of my towns the third story if there's the stairs that lead to permanent stairs that lead to the top Flor lure and if it's habitable um that can be considered by ordinance to be a third story if it was something where it was a storage area and it had a not non-permanent stair to it that would certainly be called a an attic in that in that situation so basically what the construction code official is saying that based on the construction code this habitable attic is of sufficient or small enough in size that it would be technically a habital addict but it would not be a third story so there was a little bit of conflict there and that's been for Forever on the definition of a third Story versus the attic um this has come up in plenty of towns that I've represented this is an age-old uh question and problem um it has to be U pretty much made consistent by each down and how they're going to address it but is it a conflict between the zoning department and the building department it's it's a gray area it's it's that's the best way I can describe it CH and I live in the same world I think the way most towns have resolved it if you've got habitable space on a third floor and you permit two stories in the zone you need a variance it's a bulk variance it's not a use variance uh the building code they've even cut back on the definition and the description over the years and made it even more but that's a building code has nothing to do with zoning zoning is a different statute so and we're here dealing with the zoning you're deal with the zoning and there's nothing about oneir 50% any of that is own you you allow in this Zone uh two story structures we do not allow three story structures correct correct or two and a half that that confuses things but it from a zoning standpoint this is another floor smaller but another so in terms of the building code with there's no there's no harm no foul but in terms of the zoning code they need a b they need a b variant okay that's one issue and then we have uh um Chaz we have this whole issue of drainage and roof leaders and everything here do you want to do you want to I was something um that's more of my court yes the VIS the engineer right cuz you read the uh the memo that talks about the not tying into the storman L I imagine in front of the property yes which is a very standard um it's very if there's a property that's in question or an application if there's a storm Inlet anywhere near the front of the property we always um ask for the direct tie into that Inlet versus just kind of skirting the water off to the street right um yeah I saw that memo I believe it was from July 21st uh from from Justin Lisa that's correct engineer right so um I met on site with with the contractor and with Brandon from uh from the township engineering division last Thursday um to go over this because we're uh topographically now that we actually you have topography on the plan where we're looking at two issues that we're battling one of which you have a 1 to 3% slope back away from the street and the other one we have the hill obviously going down as you travel along the street um facing the house from the street the left side there's no way by gravity to get that into the yard drain that's on the uphill side um I spoke with Brandon about this in detail um what we tied into to discharge into the street was a pre-existing uh roof leader discharge and the prior roof on on the previously existing structure was tied into that um on the right side of the property where the yard drain is located again grading issues due to the back pitch away from the street I can get the front leader into that drain and that's reflected on the newer plan and you guys have to excuse please that the changes like my plan largely reflects as build conditions so every time I've gone back out there I have to update it with what's already been constructed MH um having topography now on the plan which was never on any of the prior approved plans that back pitch away from the street is prohibitive from getting that right rear roof leader into that that yard drain I have inverts listed and everything in order to do that I mean if you compare the numbers to have a 4in PVC pipe coming off that back right corner with even a nominal amount of cover over it you're actually your invert there is lower than the 15in RCP cross string coming out of the inlet of the street um okay you just lost me sorry it's basicas water flows downhill is what we're that I understand that that's the but can you can you do like a drywall or anything there or not or it's not I think at that point in time with the limited space we're not going to get what your standard spacing should be away from the dwelling so we're going to be putting it back into the ground and the sun pump and the sun P I've been there yeah you're cycling um wonderful wonderful Topography of this town and the dirt right it's all clay yeah and it's really yeah it's so it's the right rear corner basically we don't have pitch to get that into the train um where I was going with this was I did see the memo from Mr Lisa from uh from the 2 first I met with Brandon uh last Thursday probably a couple days after that memo was issued when over the when over the topics that I just discussed with him he brought that back to Mr Lisa and he left me a voicemail to the effect that your Township Engineers okay with the discharge on the left side of the property through the pre-existing um leader discharge coming out the curb fac into the street uh his comment that he did have was that he wanted the sun pump tied into that drain that now that being that's what we were discussing we didn't know last time we met that the sub pump we thought on the plans was originally tied into the drains but I was told it was going out to the back right so again you can see on the most recent plant now there was there was a stone sump basically constructed in the backyard that the sunp pump is discharging into uh Mr Lisa thought it would be a better design and I would incur also to get that water out because you know when you you're pumping the sun pump out even if it's buil out onto the yard it go back in the ground cycle um that's fine they would have to reroute that through the inside of the building and come out the right side as you faceing the street that thing can make it into the drain again being pressure flow it's no problem not right so that one that line would tie into the inlet yeah so the left side of the house were basically using a pre-existing connection the leaders were going out to the street before they're going out again I asked Brandon have Mr lead a issue uh the board of memo in time I guess it was not received um obviously you're taking my testimony that'll be documented in some kind of memorandum from their Department well you're testifying on the road so I I believe you okay thank you I think I probably still got on a voice mail too so um I mean again pre uh post construction versus pre-construction conditions if you look at the zoning table we're talking about a difference of maybe 100 square ft just under an impervious coverage I believe the flows are are very very close what they were before any construction took place um that rear right corner that wood spill out into the yard it's on the uphill side of the property it's got complete width of the property to blow out dispersed soak into the ground um I don't foresee any problems tell we don't need any um drainage perces in the rear yard nothing left side of the house goes out to the curb right front goes into the yard drain and goes directly to the inlet in the street and right rear we have a splash block spill out and person the York Mr chairman it seems like a reasonable way of handling it um yes I would like to have confirmation that the township agrees with that and it's certainly not the ideal subject to right it's not the ideal situation but the SCS is practical wait you you okay you're not okay I'm not talking about Dr oh what are you not talking what are you talking about can we the the last plan that submitted on this is dated 7113 correct yep I have a copy here the building coverage mhm you discount a shed where is that shed no I I I have no shed in in the calculations the numbers are true measure what what is 100% square foot shed still allowed not counted building coverage uh I believe in the in the code it states that the in exit of the building coverage you can have for shed up to 100 S feet but there is no sh again there's no exemption all right you can go get a shed without building permit all right that was a copy over note from a prior plan there is no shed anyway so a non issue the Joe and I just okay okay how big is this house dwelling is 1,700 122 sare ft one floor or all footprint footprint okay so how big is that you talking complete floor area yeah okay I'll to the architect on that I have to um see if I have it handy how could you not have that handy I'm sorry with all due respect because I got a lot more questions too oh I'm sorry no no no no no no no please no no no I just it just through this whole hearing second floor plan they're all here first floor it looks like the basement is intended as full occupancy as well you could you give me a moment to just flip through and make sure refer to my sure [Music] you never [Music] can2 then that becomes non so we have 1722 1387 FL 42 as the habitable area in the okay so I can just total those up but I'm not including the basement for now it's it's um I'll come back and you add that if you want may can explain it before we try to figure out what it is [Music] so I'm coming up to 4122 for the first second third four okay 40 I'm sorry 4122 does that include the basement no maybe you could then explain to the board the various options in that basement how that works um I have I left my easel somewhere but I could hold this up I have the plans mounted here if we need to refer to them I can just hold them up and we have we have an easy sorry familiar with it you should have some of them in I have the pl have the plans here you have them right yeah I think so I think so basically the basement is an unfinished space but it is designed to be finished we use the superior wall system which is a metal frame system we just go to A1 um essentially it's a u full basement except for where the garages with a permanent stair down in the front and then we also have the outside stair in the rear and uh it's a metal framed pre-insulated Panel System I think you're Superior wall system which is a foundation prefabricated Foundation system that's good for people who might want to finish a basement in the future so we we have that system and it's uh we also have provided uh rough him for a future bathroom in the basement so we have it stubbed out so we wouldn't have to break the slab open and uh for laundry also if they choose to put a laundry down there um otherwise what's behind that that you're pointing to almost looks like you have another bathroom yeah sometimes you'll see something ghosted from above we we have a bathroom right above and it's just for the Plumbers safe but no there's only one bathroom proposed in the basement and that was there in 2014 when we got the original approval okay but but the the plan we see future bathroom rup in now okay right and then we have future bathroom r in for some other areas so this one is on the second floor oh okay that's what he and yeah the ghosting is shouldn't be there actually that one sometimes you'll see yeah it helps with construction so in theory there could be inhabitants on four levels of this home yes we we we we we were thinking that there's nothing wrong with having a full bathroom on every level but there's sobody the answer is yes to that yes if that's yes a half a bathroom in the basement if you have to take a pee but I don't see a shower down there being necessity absolutely not well it's something that that's something you might want to consider if you want an approval we can talk talk to the owners about it and see I think part of basement purpose is also sort of as a mud room the house doesn't really have a mud room room where someone can come in dirty and take off dirty boots and drink them off and things like that may even take a shower like a a worker who's been sweating or whatever doesn't want to come into main house until they're is it a basement is this walk out yes yes there's a walk out so they could come in and um take a shower and put some dirty clothes someplace and be able to get ready before going upstairs no shower in the basement any questions by the board at this point I do did you want to say something you to say something about that about that topic are you is she under Ro she was under just identify yourself um I'm their daughter um so basically there's the only people that would be living there are my parents and me myself so I right now live with my sister so that's one of the reasons but we're okay and I speak with my par for my parents as well we're okay with not having the bathroom downstairs that's what it takes so you you say there's only you and your parents living in what's going to be four floors of occupied well right now my probably my sister too because she's living with her in-law it just sounds like this this is the capacity to have a lot of people or a lot of families in this home I mean yeah so I mean we have people traveling from India to come see us and stuff so it's just extra space but in in no shape or form is it for more family there I can that you mean basically to accommodate the guest uh guest do you know how many bedrooms are in this building four I could four plus the one upstairs call it a four bom supposed to is not counting the attic as a bedroom or the basement you don't count attic as a bedroom attic and basement do not have what we would call bedrooms they have been designed okay set up like that all right but it's set up like that it looks like a cow it's set up like that it's a cow it's set it's set up like that you could you could pretend not to call it anything you want to call it my my thing to remember is I know I know what you're saying some people might try to create a bedroom they shouldn't but in this case the only way to get to the attic is through the bedrooms through the front bedrooms of the house you can't go up there any other way through a public hallway so it's it's meant as a bonus room for these two bedrooms or or if they have a close family member that maybe wants to go up that way but it's it's not uh any any uh marketable or identifiable bedro but the basement basement the basement has its own entry you know I hate to say it but I've been doing this for 31 years and I've never heard more double talking from an African than you guys really I'm sorry I'm going to be very blunt very very BL you got five bedrooms that's just what we designed fine fine that's uh no no I I I agree with the chairman you I mentioned in the last meeting the facts fluctuate like crazy on this application I also have another question though is it true that despite the fact that this house sits at the lower part the lower grade part of that whole street configuration that it actually is taller than all of the houses on that road I just need that's a yes or no question I I haven't looked at all the I I I know what you're saying in py L PCI you don't have a lot of houses I'm just talking about Adelphia Road sir okay I'm not talking about lak there are there are tall houses right across the street we have a um I understand I know but yours the question is is a yes or no question I don't need to hear this yes or no this house sits where it sits which is the lower grade um aspect of that whole Road configuration but does it stand taller than any of the houses and structures on Adelphia Road yes or no I I really haven't measured all I would say probably a good percentage of them it may be taller how could you not be familiar with the project that you represent that well I'm familiar with this project we are under the allowable height for this Zone way under we're way under 35 ft on the height of the building well we're still debating whether this is two or three stories it's a two and a half story building because the attic Raptors sit on the floor and your definition of half story is very clear about how when when a half story is not a half story it's it's written out in the definition of the ordinance and we we complied with that from day one in 2014 we don't want to create a third floor we never proposed it we don't want to do it now if you want to call it a third floor and need to do that for the purpose of the zoning ordinance and you know that's your habit or custom then so be it it's not going to change building and we're not asking to change but um basically what I what I want to reassure you of is that the area is being transformed I have another project right up the street on Adelphia with a big second floor and a habitable attic proposed and the permit's been issued it's been held off on construction but you're going to see more of this type of expansion because people want to get up higher and see the lake that doesn't mean we're approving it well I'm I'm not saying I'm not saying there's any you know any reason to use that as a justification for approval I'm just saying that it just so happens that you have some one-story houses now that are have not been developed yet but it's a very popular area and people are growing families and they want to have more space and we are very sympathetic to that in our history of approving expanding homes to take care of elderly parents and extended family but you're talking about going against the Norms that we have uh applied in that we don't we don't uh usually approve three-story homes and this when you look at it looks like a three-story home it's almost like a four-story home because you have people in the B so you it just seems like it's way overdone from my taste well all I can say to that is um the house is still exactly the way it was approved in 2014 in the sense of the the stories and the height uh as far as I I can tell you I I have the 2014 approval here if you want me to flip it open but I did show you the um elevation in my letter last month with the picture of the house next to it you could see that it was pretty much just the way it was approved so we we never intended to exceed any Norm we just thought we were doing what was appropriate for the house and the family and they asked for a full basement that was finishable which a lot of people want for recreation and for pool tables and um different things like that they had the kids over and if somebody falls asleep down there we wanted it to be safe so we put an egress window in and that's very normal now we you know you you hear stories about people getting trapped in basements and firem and unable to get in and rescue so we we do that whenever we possibly can in every basement even if no one says you know wants to sleep down there but I'm not sure that's the objection of the board I'm not sure you'd have a problem if you didn't have the the attic being inhabited I'm not I can't speak to my colleagues but I think be here not be here if this project was really kind of yeah constructed the way it was approved back then you wouldn't be here by now you wouldn't be here right now it's a project that went arai I think that's an unfair summ with all due respect in 2014 we we noted habitable attic and we had the permanent stair we had the windows we had the roof just the way we built it pretty much so it we we always intended that to be a finish partially finished at it and that's how that's you know why we did what we did because we asked the board for approval and and it was approved that way yeah the original drawings were approved that way so we didn't come in later and say let's let's finish the atle let's add a story and it's not right to characterize it that way so you're not changing the structure of the building out exteriorly is that correct you're not changing the exterior yes right the outside envelope is very similar to what but you changed it you added it you added a a door a full door to go to the basement yeah that was CH zoning office approved that before we did before we even Drew or apply for permits we had that and then you know I I I the comments here are a little negative so we understand the family issue and as Mr J would say we we are sympathetic that the problem here right now it looks like you were planning to have a four-story structure building with liable habitable bathrooms and spaces on all four floors that ain't that's not what I now the testimony she's giving here honestly at this point if I may speak you may speak at this point I think we're ready to take away the bathrooms in the attic and the basement if that's what it takes even the uh like the toilet part of it um I don't think we're asking you to take the toilet I think you I I I question the full bathrooms yeah cuz I think that changes the complexion of the house yes from totally an additional room for people coming visiting and a full-fledged room okay that that that I that's my problem anyway I don't not speaking for the rest of the board I think there's other issues um but I mean some of the some of the information that has pres been presented about what the original you know a habitable third floor and a bedroom up there and they and call it whatever you want it was a bedroom I think it two entirely different things and maybe I'm sorry I'm you can't see me over my sign um and how many laundry rooms are there how many laundry rooms are there there's one main laundry room but we we left provision sometimes people have like bigger blankets and stuff they want a big machine they don't want to just have to always use the small but it also could be used for somebody else living there as a separate BR some of this stuff you know some of the stuff can be added too I mean you can't putting some piping in for a laundry you know it's a lot easier than putting a bathroom in m so basically they agree for the basement and thetic bathrooms down no bathing in the that's they have toilet yes that's I'm I'm I'm in favor of that part that I can so Mr Mr chair the height of this structure because I was not here on the board in 2014 the height of this structure was approved by the 2014 board considering this application who can answer that I barely remember I'm probably the only one that was on the board in 2014 do were you on 2014 you were do you remember this application I don't but there was no variance the height was not the problem height I was on the board actually you remember this I I don't remember but the testimony is zoning ordinance 35 ft so and and and the the surveyor re rechecked all the average grade and all of that he he rechecked during his s and we are still several feet below the maximum well said 30 ft what else is there any other testimony is there any other questions uh Chaz you have any any we're we're okay on the drainage everybody's happy with that seems like we subject to the letter right um we've limited the two showers um half bath yeah half bath half bath in about basement in the Attic right and um is there any other issues any other issues over here on the right no on the left no just a the um walkout basement is probably the biggest concern is that a is that a bod door or is it a just a straight it's a straight door with stairs going down so it's an entrance way it was originally I believe a bill Cod door correct and then you had some modification by the zoning o which I don't know how that happened but it happened yeah this again this is something that can be retrofitted in half a day so uh you know I I don't I don't you know I just want the applicant to understand that this is not a two family house will never be a two family house okay two family houses are not permitted in parity in any Zone there's approximately 35 family houses give or take a couple that predate even when Mr Chadwick was on board and that's a long time ago if I can interrupt you know just before there's all sorts of talk about what the zoning off officer did or did not do no one walks into the zoning uh office and the zoning talk to the zoning officer and she just agrees without documentation if she agreed to something she would have edited her zoning permit how this all came up about the attic is the construction Department brought the plans down when they saw the habitable uh attic those were not the same plans that the zoning officer uh saw originally approved that's correct so that's how this came up it construction caught it it was brought down it was never part of the original permit it was that that's where it came from and I just hear like some bashing of the zoning officer so you you need you need to like keep an open mind here yeah you hearing that it also says on the meu memo that they are concerned about the safety of the occupants in on the third story we didn't even address that issue mhm they say why though because there's no ESS they're up there no now they got something being addressed in our last meeting let let me just respond a little bit that um so what what Norah just said is is just to clarify what what the building department noticed which triggered that question with Zone was the addition of the bathroom on the third floor on the that's what made him say wow what's going on here right it was the habital space everything in these plans they were not there that was not what was presented to the zoning department when the application came up nor that wasn't part of the original application that approval was it was not so there was no approval for um habitable space in the Attic or the basement no I I disagree with that because the drawings I have do show habitable attic they show the permanent stair they show the uh windows and everything just the way we but but I but again what uh the board secretary stated was there was an issue with plans presented in two in 14 that got approved and then the plans that were submitted to afterwards to zoning or to construction triggered it though because I just want to make clear that back at the end of 2019 we we finished the JS for the initial perment we submitted them to zoning because all we always submit three SS to zoning first before they go to the building department for permit they review them they say okay go ahead to the building department because that means to us we took that to mean okay you're fine you're in compliance you agree with what we were approved in Z you know in the variance in the resolution so we apply for permits now those drawings had the full habitable Attic in them what that was not added during construction or an afterthought it was part of the original approved set of plans which I I have most of that here let I don't mean to interrupt but after approval by resolution the zoning officer does not look at the plans again her permit is based off what was submitted what she did her review on for the board and the resolution she does not review the plans again so if you changed it and you're saying that you brought three sets to zoning that you didn't she didn't look at them she does not look at plans again after approval by resolution as honestly as I possibly can there was no I've worked in the zoning department for 10 years before working for the boards I was part I was in zone in when this application uh came to zoning they don't blame I understand what you're saying that they may not have opened every sheet compared every sheet to the they don't look at plans at all after approval by resolution okay so uh but what what I'm trying to say and want to reassure the board so they're not confused or misunderstanding anything is the 2014 approval that have here I can show you again I showed you in the letter of last month the close-ups of where those notes were and we did talk about the attic being partially finished we had we had the big windows in the front and the sides and we had the permanent stair going up it wasn't just an unfinished attic it was a you know a usable attic and it was noted that way on the on the was signed and approved by the board but there's a big difference between a usable space where you send the kids up to play or you put a pingpong table or a pool table versus a full-fledged basement b a bedroom call it whatever you want you were putting a full-fledged bedroom up there now the fact that it couldn't be access directly from the from the public area it was it was so I think you again you're dealing with with with definitions and I think you're double talking okay now can we move on with this case we all understand what's going on Nora has explained her position with regard to the zoning officer okay and I understand her I understand where you're coming from is there any other questions right now is there any member of the public that has any questions of these Witnesses on the testimony given this questions on these two two witnesses any questions I hear none and ask a quick question about the application yes our original application that the filled out was for two variances and then what happened was after about a month maybe after that is when Jennifer wrote a letter she just referring to where she mentioned the third floor question okay so that that socalled third four was not included in the application originally but I understand if I understand you correctly you're saying that you want to add that as a variance as a b variance um tonight but if you other option is to just agree that it's not a third floor that it's a half story and that it was all done according to point did you hear what I said a half hour ago I was just asking to you didn't hear did you amend the application who had that variant there's a building code and there's a zoning ordinance we are the zoning board we're not the building code it would just make life a lot easier if we just give you the freaking variance please pardon my okay I just want to say before you quote that there are three variances out right we will we can usually notice whatever I mean any others any other La do you know whether the notice included any and all of the variances um whatever like the notice unless they changed it it used to have it I know that unless they changed it uh the notice the last l what about if you guys remove the whole bedroom in the Attic States the sections leave it open area what can you just explain a little do you want us to like not have the bathroom and then open it more or close it off half bath only and our question right now is if we you need a third variance did you notice for we okay that that is the notice that's that's the notice this was the original Sor yeah they originally heard all you're okay any other variances yeah it's there any other so you the any other variances that are that are requested are in the res they in the notice so you you've noticed people that there might be other variances required very simp all right any other testimony no any members of I'm going to ask this again just to clarify any any members of the public have any questions of these Witnesses on a testimony given I hear nothing Cena there's nothing else you'd like to add now I will give you an opportunity if there's anybody who wants to speak an objection that you can come back and tell us and there's some so I'm going to ask right now is there any members of the public who wish to speak in opposition to this application in support of this application okay hear none and see none do we need to go into conference probably okay motion to go into conference all in favor I anyone opposed who wants to start I will this applicant lacks my complete confidence um I am you know we are setting ourselves up for uh a multi family house here um even with all the agreements that are outlined the fact that we're here now and based on some of the expert testimony by this applicant that kept contradicting itself left and right in previous hearings and and tonight um I I have no confidence that uh any of the deals that will be formed tonight will be respected um hence why we're here today um as outlined in previous testimony so I'll be voting against it and in addition to that um I wasn't here in 2014 that structure is humongous it it it does is not in coherence with the neighborhood it's massive in scale even even in comparison to the newer construction along this street again I'll be voting against it Mr work um I understand all the assasinations and everything we we discussed uh I I'm a little I'm a little concerned with any bathroom in the Attic that would be more comfortable there was no bathroom in the Attic So she like I think it's the access to it is through the bedrooms so I don't I haven't heard any testimony to me that would support need for for one up there uh if that were the case that I would the fact that it's a handp in in the basement uh I would consider it yeah I think I would be in favor of it you want the elimination of the half that would that would make me can you live with that or not live with what if they wanted to keep it can you live with that probably be against it probably be against it okay Mr Willams yeah uh we are here for the board of adjustment zoning issues right right a lot of the other things we've been talking about are construction issues and you're here because it appears from your plans that this was going to become a multif family dwell you now are testifying that you will be willing to remove the bathrooms from the basement and the attic is that correct yes and that uh these are not inhabitable and I think the term before was uh uh accessible versus habitable or whatever okay so the upstairs attic space okay right now you want family members to be able to go up there and if you have extended family staying with you for a period of time maybe have a place to lay down and sleep or rest up there is that correct yes all right okay and that that that'll be the same case for the basement not necessarily stay I mean probably put a p pong or something that but you don't want anybody to live inside the basement that's why I'm agreeing to taking out the bathroom as well if that be okay so uh if if you're in your testimony I'm relying on more than anything else here by the way okay I promise for your family okay your promise is one thing testimony is another okay all right but for the house itself you're not altering the structure of the house uh externally so you're going to make it more habitable for your family needs internally by some of these changes okay uh and if you remove the possibility of that becoming a multif family dwelling by taking out those bathrooms I would probably support uh this application but just for the record they're they're not testimony so far is that they're not taking out the bathrooms on the in the Attic or the basement they said that they would take out the showers so You' still have a half a half bath yes I'm half bath you would be willing to keep the half bath bement what about the half bathroom I think that'd be okay okay Mr ready yeah same thing uh uh here to accommodate the family needs uh it is a one family house it's four bedrooms that's what I believe basement completely uh no no full bed only half bath and going to the attic uh only have bath and it should be like a plain area no rooms or anything like a livable just like uh kids playing or chitchat or somebody can talk and not a livable place so and the third one is if the height of the building is in compliance with the code of permitted code so if all these things are in comp I'm in favor of this thank you sir Mr J go uh I agree with M Schneider I'm against it I think it's been very confusing and hasn't been put forward smoothly and straightforward um I think for the the attic is done already so to undo it doesn't make sense to me I don't think that's happening and I'm uncomfortable we never addressed the safety issue which is the one letter we had uh that was never addressed so I'm totally uncomfortable and I'm voting against it okay um first of all I would like to say that the to the applicant that I'm sorry that we've gotten to this point um of quite a bit of of discussion and uh maybe some controversy and and misunderstanding between the building code and the and Zoning etc etc if you're willing to take out the showers on the top floor and on and in the basement um I understand M Schneider's comments but it I I think if the applicant came here and testified under oath that they will not do certain things it's a little different than people who just do things on their own accord and put basements and we've had them where they've put full kitchens and full apartments and basements and you know they they come and ask for forgiveness not you know not for permission and I think these people are really asking for permission so I would be willing I would be voting in favor as long as we can resolve the drainage issues which Mr um holway says we can um we have the height issue addressed that's not an issue not an issue okay the uh variances would be the the the front Port the have the fren portch variance which we didn't discuss but it shows where it is and the U the deck in the back which was I thought that on the original plans and of course the bathroom is Sho okay so that you and I think we need I think we're going to need confirmation from the town engineer of the drainage agreement okay right now you have three and three and that's a win TI's a win no TI TI's a l they don't have it don't know well I thought that she said she was willing to remove the bathroom in the Attic totally yeah you need to remove the bathroom from upstairs to get approval cuz you you're at 3 three right now and that's a loss so no half bth that's fine fine okay so you're amending your application you're amending everything to eliminate the bathroom upstairs and the shower downstairs yes it's okay to have the half downstairs or should we remove that to is it okay to have the half in the basement yes yes that we're all in agreement with yes okay motion to Comm out conference so MO secondary all in favor I anyone opposed okay um I would recommend that we authorize the attorney to draw up a resolution what we're going to do in order so that you are represented by council tonight okay so what I want to explain to you is that Mr King is going to draw up a resolution which encompasses all the aspects that we spoke about tonight okay and you will have an opportunity to look at that resolution now I'm not saying you need to engage councel to review it you probably don't need to you might have your professionals just look at it to make sure everybody's on the same waveline okay so I'm asking someone to frame a resolution to authorize Mr King to to draw up a resolution that encompasses the ask the the the the uh all the things that we spoke about eliminating the half B the bathroom upstairs eliminating the shower in the basement and I believe everything else is approved subject to the engineers letter and and and all the drainage issues being addressed do I have a motion to that effect I I move a motion okay is there a second second okay any discussion Nora Colo burtz yes Josh goitz no ready yes Snider no willing yes iane yes okay thank you all right thank you so much it was like having root canal without noane right like three oh dear yes can I'm not making [Music] Mr chairman I have to recuse myself from the next case okay I make the motion to [Music] remove thank you you like come on up Mr O'Neal does anybody have to uh take a break okay are we okay with the report say what we're down to five we're going to be down to five that's correct she well she went to the bathroom went to the bathroom she'll be right back [Music] um people those are the people that yeah those a couple we agreed to [Music] give you want to put on the record was discussed [Music] you want to yeah okay what's going on [Music] nowbook says who heun with people from sitting here the boo with three manager okay are we ready thank you good evening Mr chairman members of the board Joseph O'Neal of G follow O'Neal rerio here on behalf of the applicant this is a bifurcated application use variance approval and all the variances actually were granted in the prior approval this is the site plan testimony uh with me I have uh Mr mlen to my immediate right who will introduce in a moment but I believe Mr King and I need to discuss yes recognize him with his man I don't recognize me with my pants on it's been a long time since i' had to do a meeting like this I could have all so the the issue that we want to bring before the board the uh town uh specifically the town attorney has sent a letter to us with regard to the um set aside uh the town went into or had an agreement based upon the litigation that going forward would be 20% the issue is is the decision the date of that decision how it affects this application um when this application was filed and the approval of granted that that agreement was not um executed to my knowledge I don't think it was and I believe um your opin I could fill some dates here we were we were declared uh complete in uh just give me a minute I'm sorry August 15 2019 we were declared complete the settlement was beginning to work its way through the courts at that point the township adopted enabling ordinances memorializing the settlement that became effective October 1st of 2019 we had already begun the application and had at least one hearing perhaps two at that point uh our position is that this is an issue that was covered by the use variance itself for the units uh affordable housing units are elements of use they're not elements of bulk so we got the approval for the use variants uh we got the right to build the units in the configuration that you see here before you tonight uh that's supported by the homes of Hope case which we cited in the original uh hearing uh that provided that providing affordable units over what's required would actually be considered an inherently beneficial use in any EV it was 15% the agreement was for 20 uh there's there's the old rule is it's I guess time of the essence more or less or the time that those ordinances were in effect if you predate it you're not subject to them if uh it's after you are subject to them the argument is is that um this application was not subject to the 20% and it was agreed upon 15% I think there was some discussion about that uh the only Nuance in it is is that this involves a a settlement with um the state not it's not as clear as it was just an ordinance change but but again I think the zoning board is taken out of that it's more of an issue if it becomes an issue between the town ship and the applicant yeah the settlement was with what are we talking about in number of units how many units is 20 and what was it 5% five what's 5% of your to Total years what's the units it's 156 so the 50s have at seven seven we're talking about seven units right number one right number two if this gets litigated it's going to get litigated by the town not by us that's I have no indication that the town's going to do anything like that and and we approved it already and that's no well the time that the time that it rolled through was filed uh was predated the um settlement so you think we're we're okay with our that's has always been the long long standing anybody have any problems with that Mr burtz you have any problems with that good the key the key to this is the plan was deemed complete okay that's where you fix your wance and they were well ahead of the settlement okay so it's a done deal again the only Nuance would be with this court settlement it's a little bit different but again that's not a litigation that is our concern and all our resolutions do say that would you'd have to follow whatever is deemed appropriate by the um Municipal you have to remember that the time this thing was filed there was no requirement for affordable and if the board recalls Mr O'Neal and I had a discussion about how much you were going to have set aside how much you w okay and he agreed that the goal standard was 15% and they would live with it would that be part of our board purview anyway of this I at that time we weren't involved in that litigation so we had we had no knowledge of it so again that wouldn't be us that would be town and the applicant we discussed it I don't the 20% number wasn't really public I don't remember if I knew about the 20% number in uh when we did the first hearing that really just came about as part of the settlement with fair share housing this has no bearing on our V our our job at this point does it no it doesn't but you did receive a letter we did fine I just want to bring it up to the board thank you and it's been brought up and let's Pro we got to we got too many things there's one other item that's okay it's really a if you grant this preliminary final site plan you should make a condition to a either an statement of exemption from the highlands act because the town did join in December 20th 2020 which was after our approval but before preliminary site plan approval so I don't know what Highlands Council will do if they say no you got to come to us well they'll have to go there if they say you're exemp they exemp no problem with that the town has no regulations whatsoever yeah adopted or as I understand even in the working stage for I there are no adopted regulations so I could F on no okay thank you noted go ahead so with all that Mr mlen will discuss the site I'll have him sworn again sir raise your right hand you swear firm testimony about to give before the board sh help you got I did and for the record you're the engineer yes all your licens are full force in effect you provided testimony for this border other boards in the state of New Jersey I yes I this chairman he's qualified as an expert Mr mclen referring to the plan that you filed I wonder if you could just walk us through what it is we're proposing I will point out to the board we did extensive testimony about the site plan about truck turning radiuses about all that in the original application even though we did not apply for a site plan so this is going to be a lot shorter than that Mr mlen good evening um if I see him out of practice again I apologize this my first live meeting in 8 n months well than that's so used to doing it on on the computer so uh anyway as Council has said you've seen this application before for use variants uh we we're calling this powdermill Plaza West it's located at block 18 Lot 8 uh on Route uh Route 10 West uh the property is currently fully developed with a series of uh commercial and Retail spaces and the plan is to redevelop the property uh to remove the the existing building plan stated the uh plan that we're looking at is is uh revised 63 2021 thank uh this is the set that was submitted and I haven't made any changes just on a board so uh have something to point to referring to sheet three uh the proposal again is to remove the existing building uh and we're we're going to be constructing uh a building with 156 residential units this is the same building that we had before this board for the use varats so uh essentially it's the same application uh there there's really only one minor adjustment to the Zone schedule everything is the same from the previous application uh except that we have a very slight reduction in the impervious cover proposed uh we had had uh in the uh use variance application we had 64 . 1% on the approved plan and this one has a slight reduction to 63.9% all the rest of the bul requirements are the same uh from the existing from the previous application uh we're proposing again uh single building uh three stories with uh 52 units per floor uh and and we have uh at the back of the building we have parking underneath the building we're taking advantage of the fact that the property slopes down it's two buildings right it's one building it's connect connected it's that's completely open right yeah yeah it's building with connecting Courtyard it's well it has a connecting garage underneath yeah okay yeah so um anyway so it's it is uh 52 units per floor uh with 91 parking spaces underneath and a total of 407 spaces throughout the site um I think probably the easiest way to do this Mr O'Neal is to go through uh the letter um sure the July 9th 2021 letter Hollow and I did have an opportunity to talk to Mr Holloway uh earlier today uh we have reviewed this letter in detail uh and generally as a whole we have no objections or issues with the comments and you'll comply with we will comply with them there are a few that were asked for some testimony so I am going to talk about 12 or 13 of them specifically if I may um glasses on all right so uh starting on page two of this Highway's letter number two uh testimony should be provided uh for the status of the existing and proposed variances and waivers uh again just for the board's edification we we're listing uh use variance Building height Building stories lot coverage building coverage Wall height and steep slope disturbances all of those variances were part of the original use variance application and we've repeated those those uh items here and again the uh all of the bulk requirements all the variance all the deficiencies that we were asking permission for the last time and approved are the same except for building coverage which is actually been reduced by 2/10 of a percent not a heck of a lot but it's in the right direction at least so uh so we have not uh changed or exacerbated any of the variances that were previously approved uh item three uh Council had discussed the affordable housing so I'll I think that's uh provided a sufficient testimony to respond to the that [Music] comment moving to item six applicant should provide testimony regarding permits needed this application should it be approved will require a DE access permit we are on Route 10 we are proposing to remove the two existing access points that are there today and we're proposing one new access point down the center of the site to to improve the circulation on and off of the property uh we'll also need a uh a sewer extension application treatment works approval we'll require a water man extension application both of those are a result of the number of residential units that we're proposing uh so we we require permits for those those numbers and then finally we'll need uh Morris County Soil Conservation District and I don't believe we'll need Morris County but typically we filed just to at least get an exemption letter do you have allocation for the water this they we can't get allocation until we file an approved plan so you we we'll be filing that again the board should act favorably we'll file that and and you know I I understand that that there's some issues there but we certainly will you know we'll go through that process so this this application would be subject to that allocation yes it would uh item a plan should should be uh should include a detail of what's planned in the open recreational area uh and you know again the plans don't specifically outline what's there but for the record uh we're we're proposing it to be a passive Recreation Area it's going to consist of you know outdoor Gathering using tables and chairs it's not intended to be a children's play area or intended to be you know anything that would be a noisy um outdoor activity item item nine I just want to confirm to the board that project's uh isolated on Route 10 consideration of a of a 5- foot curb and sidewalk walking path around the perimeter of the building should be considered and we think that's a good idea uh so we just wanted to put on the record that we will uh we will add that to the plan currently there's about their sidewalk about 2/3 of the way around the building uh but we'll continue it around the back and it'll give give uh circul pedestrian circulation around the whole building all the access points and also could be a source of exercise for somebody who chooses to use that for that purpose item 10 applicant should provide testimony regarding the building inclusion of pets uh and if the tenant is available um to the buffer area located along the Northerly property line the policy of of the applicant is not to allow pets um they will have to recognize service animals if if someone should have that need uh but the policy will be no pets so there won't be a provision for pet walking or things of that nature no access to the no access to the back yeah item 13 uh applicant should provide testimony regarding electrical vehicle charging stations and bike racks regarding charging stations it actually is uh in the future plans of the African to provide charging stations it's an oncoming and emerging technology it's something that's becoming important in residential projects there is not a specific plan today of how to do that uh but it is something that they are uh willing to do in the future if the board wanted to say set aside say six parking spaces for the purposes of uh future uh electric charging uh the app will be willing to do that uh regarding the bike racks though uh we did not consider bike racks here unfortunately the project being located on Route 10 it doesn't seem you know too uh too much of a good idea to promote the bicycle riding uh so we have not provided bicycle racks number 14 applicant should provide testimony regarding loading areas and box truck delivery areas uh we currently do not have a loading area specified on the plan but that's also a growing concern with Uber and and all of the delivery services that are now out there uh we've discussed with the applicant the idea of putting perhaps uh a loading area actually right in front of the building actually have a rather large concrete Plaza area that we could carve out a loading area for that purpose uh so we would be willing to to um uh accept that as a condition should the application be approved have you thought about having some place that they would drop the packages in the building as opposed to leaving them by doors I think I would have to defer that question uh I have not had that conversation but perhaps our I just started in an application elsewhere and it seemed to make a lot of sense especially you have 156 units yeah a good chance for packages getting dropped off and of course they're not going to be in inside somebody's front door they're going to be in the hallway well I I will defer that just a couple more um number 18 have to testify regarding site identification signage the current plan there's two existing um Monument type signs out in the frontage both of which will be removed there'll be one new sign proposed it's not been design yet but it will be located uh in the in the boulevard Island uh at the at the center of the accessway that's actually very close to the to the more Westerly sign that's there now uh and it is very effective there's good sight line to that one uh the applicant proposes you know a fully conforming sign uh and once it's designed to apply for the appropriate zoning permits and it will be compliant with the zoning ordinance but there there has not been a design yet for that uh number 21 after you testify regarding the hi and pedestrian access to the adjoining Lot 19 there exists Lot 19 is one lot to our uh West and there's currently a driveway from the back of our property to that property next door we had originally thought to close that off because we're having some topographic concerns there but uh We've since rethought it the plan still shows it closed off but G applicant would like to maintain that driveway so we would have a small reconfiguration of uh of this area here uh that would open it back up it would cost us two parking spaces to do it so we would we'd be reduced now to 405 spaces uh but we're far in excess of the requirement uh so the board has no objection to that we'd like to uh reverse that back to leaving it open on a uh as a condition of approval is that partly for fir truck access as well fire truck access it's actually also to assist cross access for um uh for the uh getting out to Route 10 you know the our traffic engineer tells us you know anytime you can encourage cross traffic on the properties it's less vehicle movements out in the on the roadway and then uh a should testify regarding an auxiliary generator I to advise the board that there is not a plan for an auxiliary generator so we don't have one shown on the plan flipping ahead um to page five under utilities uh just to confirm item two under utilities this building will be fully sprinklered uh required by code and and will of course be complied with uh item six applicant should provide testimony regarding the proposed water connection points uh what we can show you is and I'm referring to sheet two of our plan which is our existing conditions you know there's currently Water and Sewer Service to this site because it's fully developed uh our our homework is telling us that there's a water line that exists coming down the east side of the property around the back and then onto the adjacent property and then there's a second water line that um tees off of that line and then also goes off onto onto Lot 19 our proposal is actually to continue to maintain that connection and uh to create uh one more leg of the loop uh between these two uh these two T's you still have to do float testing we still need an NEP to design uh all of the uh pipe sizes and such but there is water supply you're still going to be connected to Lot 19 yeah we're not we do not plan to disconnect that though do they have another connection somewhere I just would feel more comfortable if I knew it was Loop somehow I don't know we we will we'll have to do some research and and and share that with you yeah we'll confirm that it's not a dead end on could be couple lass that kind I understand that comment uh and then the entire section for storm water management you know this is a site that has a storm water management design on it the proposal actually decreases the impervious cover by about half an acre um so by rule um you we're satisfying the stor M management regulations however Mr howy has a bunch of comments that are actually applicable and good comments and we will comply with them all and then finally the uh under the section of traffic uh and parking um item three uh just to to confirm or I guess to to discuss with the board we recognize that we're far in excess of of the required parking uh CH just a correct uh we we have on our plan that we need 307 parking spaces we actually need 289 we had a we had a mathematical blunder in our spreadsheet so we actually need 289 we're proposing 407 we'll lose you know a couple of spaces because of the interconnection so even if I said we're down to 400 with that we're far in excess of what's required now we're doing that because we're on Route 10 uh we don't have opportunity for offsite parking uh however if you know the board has discussed in the past the idea of maybe reducing the amount of parking maybe reverting some of the spaces back to green and you the the applicant does not object to that uh strategy if the board would like to see that the uh options are to to bank the uh parking space show it from a conceptual standpoint right so that would be for consideration what we're looking at okay so we could we have have no opportunity for street parking and what if you have an excessive number of visitors I I don't know would it would you ever have more than a 100 visitors at one time I don't know that stuff you know that's the you know we could always Lan on the residential site of proen Standards because they tell us that guest parking is considered but they clearly don't talk about Mother's Day or Thanksgiving or Super Bowl Sunday I'll be honest with this board this is probably the most successive parking I've seen in project it's it's done so it's convenient because we have it we can do it uh and as Mr Highway said though I know at the the variance hearing we talked about the idea of banking the parking so where we can designate a certain number of spaces that will not be you they be reserve for parking if there becomes a need uh but we can revert them to Green Space and you know if 5 years down the road there's a problem with the parking they can take 20 of the bank and and pay so you know we're amenable to that idea um and if the board you know sees fit we certainly will work with you on thee and and again all the other comments in the letter we have no issue complying with I just there's going to be a 5 foot side walk around need there yeah that that one I specifically want brought on the record because I think that's an excellent idea so what I wanted to specifically say to the board that we're going to be providing that can you please just show us where the uh where the doors are that might be before for the architect well we we I don't have the doors clearly shown on my plan and that's part of the coordination we have to do uh cuz I'm like I don't show doors on on the west Edge and I don't show sidewalk here and I think that's what prompted your your yeah and and you know good catch because one we have we have almost 40 ft of a drive AIS here so we have opportunity for sidewalk to hit all the doors we also have opportunity for a little green strip in there that we'd like to do so you know we don't we welcome an opportunity to show you you know without taking up the board's time I think we can do a good job applying those comments there's a major soil moving permit associated with this application also you testify that then I forgot my uh oh here we go thank you mrisa U um yeah we we had done the uh you know this project is largely um you know to grade anyway but we're we are going to create um a better uh experience out there because right now the slopes when you come in off of Route 10 are really steep so we are going to fill soil in the front of the property and the building's designed to have parking under a a story lower at the back so the building kind of becomes a wall and we're putting soil in the front so as a result we have an in import of soil coming to this site we've estimated it to be 5,071 cubic feet uh We've prepared plans to show that number uh and the engineering department has reviewed it and has according to their letter dated uh April 23rd they have no objections to issuing the soil moving to the soil moving application 5,071 cubic feet there's nine cubic feet Cub yards I'm sorry Cub yards Okay so we're talking about uh 400 uh 450 trucks 460 trucks sound oh I'm sorry I'm sorry using 20 yard I don't know what I'm doing yeah 5071 / by 20 two 225 truck and over the over the life of this project you know that's and and and it's only coming on 10 there's no size going to say if it's timed right it would come you know it would be local spoils from other projects by this this client so uh it would actually you know it would help benefit because it would give a local destination if there was any soils coming off of some of the other projects nearby i' like to talk about the generator in the fire suppression system I think you're going to need power to operate a fire suppression system W you think you think it'll need a pump system I think yeah well again little early in the process for a design to have been done but certainly pressure flow testing for the Water Systems going to be needed those generators let's do it this way if you do need a generator or choose to have a generator to keep juice there when the power goes out that it will not be on the outside of the building to no the out sides and rear of the building meaning to the residential side period yeah you have to exercise those things I don't know once a week or something like yeah they annoing we have yeah cuz the residential at the back we certainly can stay away from that we have some opportunity over here if need be think we have the garage so yeah so yeah we can if if needed we can comply with that will trans May nice huh nice well again that's what we're talking about an alternate source of power should you know should be needed and if um c as long as it can be vented I think that it could be so if you know if it's if it's possible to put in the garage and we the things we have to all I'm suggesting to the board is that is not located on the residential side of this prop yeah that that's not a problem we can comply with that I you yeah I have no further questions for this wi any more questions to this witness Mr Hollow you're okay Mr travic you're okay looks like everybody else is okay next witness oh any members of the public have any questions of this witness on a testimony given this evening any questions by members please come forward ma'am do you have a question Mr O Witnesses U Mr McDon is going to be have other Witnesses for questions if the lighting and Landscaping okay she's look she's working her way up hi just for the record can you state your name Barbara Mar you got to come closer to the microphone please Barbara Marsa how do you spell that ma'am m a m a r z L FF to F Frank thank B just before you got up there's one more witness Mr MCD who is going to explain landscaping and lighting and I don't know if your questions are going to go to that maybe we want to hear him first or not it's up to you yeah we can hear okay Mr M any other members of the public have any questions of this witness and it looks like I see none thank you don't go too far thank you Mr M Mr MD you've been sworn of youve not been sworn yet correct uh not for this application raise your hand you swear from testimony about to give before the board sh the help you got yes I do and for the record all your licenses are in full force and effect yes that's correct I'm testifying in the capacity of both a planner and a landscape architect and you've been qualified before this board and other boards in the of New Jersey as an expert Mr chairman the witness has been qualified as an expert thank Mr McDon you are familiar with the application before the board this evening yes I am you've had an opportunity to examine local ordinances and a master plan yes I have and I wonder if you could go ahead and compare that this application to those documents right after you do your Landscaping testimony sure thing so we were involved with the use variance plan as well and the application which we we know was vetted uh extensively through multiple hearings with the board um in connection with that application we put forth a report that it's actually about two years old now almost to the day where we address the site plan aspects we addressed both the C and the D relief that the applicant was considering and they were actually folded into the D relief that the applicant was granted for uh for use um in that regard we've put together a landscape plan on top of the site plan that Pat mlen has put together I'm happy to report that the site plan um is in substantial conformance with the use variance plan and in effect the use variance plan has held up through the scrutiny of of site planning detail as we work our way through the grading and the drainage and here I put together a Landscape and Lighting plan on on top of Mr mclin's plan um you've heard the detail I'll say of the nuts and bolts of the plan in terms of the INF structure the circulation the access the parking the building positioning uh the overall key numbers of this application remain substantially consistent with that which was approved under the use variance plan the density is exactly the same the overall layout is substantially similar to that which the board reviewed uh under site plan as well building Mass hasn't changed floor area and the like the planting plan that we've put together focuses on three main parts here the back part the buffer which is up against the residential area both preserves the mature and dense Woodland that presently is in place there now it's no change to what we presented as part of the uh use variance application the plan also to supplement that with additional plantings upwards of 150 are also exactly the same as that to which we testified to we did talk about site specific locations during construction uh with sensitivity care to our our neighboring properties behind us in the back second part of the landscape package includes extensive plantings in the interior of the parking lot we've provided trees and shrubs throughout Mr mclelan has given us a good base to work with that this is not going to be an expansive asphalt but actually something that is well broken up you know uh the site presently is stepped in its current condition and what Mr mclin's plan does here is does create nice flat plane which is much more conducive to a a residential living environment that makes it easier for us to break up the parking lot with a uh a planting plan that can actually have lower plantings than what we see out there presently now and much greater variety than we see on the the property presently and then finally the last part of the landscape plan emphasizes the building itself helping I'll say the hard lines of the building blend with the natural landscape and we've put a foundation planting all around the perimeter of the building as well we've gone with a wide variety of plant selections here with an emphasis on Native plantings on drought tolerant plantings deer resistant plantings um and plantings that would overall be low maintenance we've also put together a lighting plan that will safely illuminate the site in the interior of meeting what are typical site planning standards in terms of the Interior also again with consideration and sensitivity to our neighbors on the perimeter of the property we have houseside shields such that there will be no spillage of light onto those adjacent properties and also we've designed a plan that is where I'll say is is dark sky compliant to the ex extent that this is not going to create what we might call a stadium effect or skylow effect where those lights will reverberate to the sky so directional pointed lights these are new LED lights have higher energy efficiencies then those older shoe box that are out there now uh care and consideration given to our surrounding neighborhood uh with those cut offs both at the edge and in the sky as well uh in that regard the plan the light landscaping and the lighting does conform to the ordinances here in town and no design exceptions or relief is sought in that regard to affirm the relief that the board previously granted here this site is in a transitional Zone it happens to be called the office transitional Zone the board has already found that residential multif family is an appropriate transitional use here from non-residential to the lower density residential that's on the downhill side of the site and all of the relief that was previously granted has not changed whatsoever the building height the number of Stories the building coverage the lot coverage also holds what was set forth before but only better as you heard through Mr McLean's testimony there's a slight downtick in the overall coverage from previously 64.1% to now 63.9% so that's a a betterment over that which the board has already vetted the applicant is seeking relief for the Wall height which are going to be the string of walls that run along the Route 10 side but they are going to plunge downward from Route 10 so they're not going to stand out as abusive structures on Route 10 and they're only going to be 6 ft High uh I think the board knows well that your ordinances here in town have a four foot height limit for walls and fences in the front yard but again these are not going to be perceivable they help to effectuate that I'll say grade catch up and that flatter plane on the downhill side likewise relief for steep slopes there are aspects of the property now particularly around the perimeter and in the interior where we have that that tearing taking place that does trigger relief for steep slopes but these are all man-made slopes these are previously Disturbed slopes and the applicant are not disturbing raw or or natural slopes that uh have not already been Disturbed all said this is just to reaffirm the relief that the board has already granted that all of the project positives carry forth this plan is going to continue to promote the public good with new housing stock and of of course that added element of affordable housing as well the site plans now demonstrate that the project will promote a positive aesthetic and efficient use of land all of this continues to promote the purposes of the land use law especially purpose a the promotion of the general welfare purpose G to provide for a variety of uses in appropriate locations purpose I the promotion of a desirable visual environment and purpose M again the efficient use of land on the negative side any impacts associated with this development will be minimal to the extent C that certainly the benefits of the application as a whole would substantially outweigh the detriments and in that regard I believe the statutory criteria area for Relief are met and approval on the site plan plan level is warranted here just a couple of things to plug in in terms of questions from the board I think there was a good question about the package room this plan uh just to Echo what was told uh through Mr Hallow's uh question this is one building with two Wings a left and a right wing or an East and a West Wing is what it's called on the plan each has a lobby with a package room off of it and the applicant will stipulate for lockers in there for package drop off and and the like so that is covered in the in floor plans and contemplated by the the architecture of of the building I think I addressed everything you wanted me to hit was there any anything else what's that generator oh oh yes and the generator is not needed here the fire suppression system is adequate told through uh the applicant's experience that a generator will not be needed here for the fire suppression system okay could you explain the access to the passive Recreation Area I'm just trying to I see all the Landscaping there and I'm trying to say I'm on a sidewalk and I want to go to the pass of Recreation Area sure so I don't have the architectural plans here but there're the open space area is going to be the lower tier bearing in mind both of these L's These Wings rise up from there and you can't see it here but is a centrally loaded or double loaded Corridor that actually Loops back to the front of the building and there'll be a door that punches out is there is there a sidewalk connection between that and the uh the the uh parking the rooftop Terrace of the parking structure I believe is elevated relative to to the Grave don't think it's flush it is flush tired yes you're back so I do have sidewalks in our in our landscape plan I have to go back and check if they follow Pat's base plan as well but Chaz if the question is to connect this sidewalk to that Center Courtyard or even just the main sidewalk that's going all the way around to get back we can punch an access point through there I see no reason why not so you can get to that Center Court from both the inside and the [Music] outside I have no further questions did we address the uh fire inspector's report in any way did I miss that the real answer to that is is a lot of specifications that you don't really have any choice the short answer is will comply but I don't know if an issue is raised we're going to let Mr we come and there verbi I've never heard of before like Corporation stops meter Yol you said you're you'll conform with everything right the uh country standards for those okay of Standards so and they said something about no fire lanes and Associated signs indicated on FL y we'll we'll we'll set those up and then we we'll submit it to them for their for their review and acceptance I think you mentioned the sprinkler system right that did fire alarm should be does fire okay well that's good and and at the US variance application we did talk in detail about the fire truck access okay and the fire department did confirm that was acceptable okay we talked about the the soil moving Dan cis's uh memo I have no idea what he's saying here he's got total units and then market and COA he's got nothing does that make any difference or it's not changing from the original approv fine okay we'll get that information to okay that's that huh complete yeah complete I think so Mr O'Neal have you made any contact to the highlands commission at all uh no we have not had an opportunity to do that uh I was uh more concerned with trying to see if any standards have been adopted locally while they've accepted Highland standards they don't appear to have done any of the enabling ordinances so I don't know I'll if there's a require of a multi-stage process to become a quote member of the Highlands uh grouping and they did the first step saying we will join you as far as I can yeah I my impression was always you do that step and the enabling ordinances at the same time but obviously I'm mistaken so we'll comply with every any questions of Mr McDon um actually I have I have one I think there was some discussion about the possib ility of banking some parking spaces to create more recreational or green area do you have a recommendation on something like that since you're familiar with if we look at the the pure math I think we calculated that to eliminate the coverage relief Al together would be about 90 spaces I think that's we have a surplus of about 100 or so spaces I don't know that we want to go that extreme maybe there's a maybe there's a happy medium somewhere um but again this the reason why there's so much parking here is because this site has so much parking already we're working within the the constraints of the site that the way it's already been developed we have an applicant that's that's willing to make the site more green so I don't know Mr Burke which if the question is where where do you B yeah because I have no idea what what could be done but I'm guessing could be any place out front there it could be I'll leave it to the board but of course I would think that if you're go going to bank it'ss those spaces furthest away those on the on the base of the wall those are the least convenient of the spaces and the thing is this is basically a one-bedroom project yes uh I don't I forget what the percentage one bedrooms are thanks so you know the the one bedroom is what 18 is that what it is yes I mean you got such a multiple with that I mean that that's almost saying you're going to have two occupants that each has their own car with 400 spaces yeah whale yes so I I would agree with John uh leave the leave those spaces out furthest away gives you a place to pile snow you know all those fun things we'll agree to that last row being converted into a bank spaces well you going to provide some temporarily green area for it or just going to be uh unline pavement cour there you we will uh we will put Green Space in there horses shoes and B that's all I have actually the thing that everybody wants now is pickle ball I couple of pickle ball courts in there that'd be nice everybody oh God it's the latest down by me and wtown they're going crazy they just built two courts they're nice cuz they're compact yeah and they're they tolerable for us 70 year olds not to run as much you play ball have question any other the questions of Mr MCD any members of the public have any questions of either Mr McD or Mr mclelan on the testimony given this evening if you have questions please come forward please come forward just please restate your name Barbara marsof of course being right behind this big high monstrosity my concern is privacy and noise that's my main two concerns I want to know like how many Wom windows are going to be facing me I'm concerned about people in Windows looking right down because we sit way down here the building is going to be way up here and then there's no privacy like if you want to go in a pool swimming pool all these windows are going to be looking right down and if they're saying that it's all filled with trees back there that is not totally the case there are some trees on part of the property but the other half of the property is all open and we had have a great big tree taken down because of carpenter ants which opened up another space so maybe one EXC excuse me excuse me your question is you want to know about the vegetation and the privacy window and the number of windows it's going to be provided to the rear of the property which faces the rear of your property so let's go with an answer now guys okay uh that was discussed at Great length at the usth Baran hearing at that time uh we had presented an exhibit that showed a cross-section through uh the houses uh below the uh existing vegetation the back of the uh applicant's property and up to the building and we had shown a line of sight and we had shown how the application was going to infill with some mature vegetation to supplement what's there so uh in was about 150 trees yeah about 150 trees you know as a result of that approval which are superimposed on the plan so they're part of this approval and then also to infill areas after you we do all that and then infill areas that may still be void so that would that would address you know the loss of that tree um that that you've had so that we get filled in but un and I believe you also agreed the applicant agreed that it would replace any trees that died you were going to maintain that area yeah there would be a there would be a warranty for the Landscaping yep well unfortunately with Co there were some meetings that were online and it went in uh it was in Zoom it was like I don't know wetgo or something I wasn't familiar with and I can see all you guys EXC excuse me excuse me when was this application approved was it was here yeah I don't think this meeting this 2019 it was this was 20 early this meeting was never online we never had a web ex we never had this this Mee online I remember I remember you being here and I think it was um M Schneider and I agreeing with you that we wanted to look at the the um landcap Landscaping um they came back you were here nothing has changed since that last meeting now with regard to the windows on the back of the I have a number okay you have a number okay before before John the the the use variance condition basically says that the town has two bites of the Apple they've got the Landscaping plan up there we think it's meets what the discussion was but even after that if there's obviously open holes that weren't covered they have the responsibility to fill them in yes so you know it's kind of like we don't get it right the first time you're going to get it right the second time but you're not proposing anything different than what we proposed two years ago I mean what we agreed to two years ago that's correct the the exhibit that Mr mdon is showing that's literally the same plan that we had before you know when we had that cross-section drawing that showed what it would look like uh from a resident looking up at the building and the building is in the same position same position same height same height same facade as we as we agreed with regard to the Landscaping cor the Landscaping was decided two years ago okay I was not aware of it I only got the letter like uh back in maybe I don't remember you the end of 20 somewhere somewhere in the end of 20 I didn't know anything two years ago of anything that was going on we don't we were not notified only when we you were here you were here for you were here for the proceedings you were I remember you being here for the meetings and you were the reason that we carried the case for one more meeting I was here for one meeting that Co came it was online I'm sorry I have to disagree with you Nora do you have proof that these meetings were held before um or am I wrong um because I remember online when I was on the WebEx thing she was saying I think somebody trying to get through and I couldn't figure out how to do it we you didn't be meeting online you did have a meeting online Co started up the first meeting to get cancelled for the co outbreak was this meeting prior application so I believe we did do one meeting on on that well I mean we we agreed to the to the Landscaping plan at some point and it was quite a while ago more than a year ago we provided uh a cross-section showing a line of sight to the building we provided photo simulations of the building superimposed into the backyards were you on that meeting a couple of times because the board was not satisfied with the first set of photo simulations so we had to do it again were you were you on that meeting did you have an opportunity to see that presentation or not I I was here one time in person before it went to the web thing and they said something about they were going to put little plannings in here it would take 20 years before you would have any priv that was all changed at the next meeting and right right M we agreed at that point they were providing it so the unfortunately unless there is a significant issue the Landscaping part is kind of sealed in wax okay then I would like to understand the wall that is at the end of the property there goes up goes down like about 10 ft so this is say where the fence thing is that space down there is like 10 ft and then um there do do you do you do you understand what she's you have to because Mr Kaplan brought that up during that can you can you um explain that Mr shair if I can take it yes and I'll also say I'm under oath I've only been questioned in person on the Landscaping I was never questioned virtually I and all right I then I made a mistake I know I know I think so too I think so too I don't ever remember Landscaping I remember I remember sitting here and approving that application in this seat Mr Kaplan also in regards to the wall issue that she brings up Mr Ka was very vocal about that I thought the approval was was February 2020 which would have been a month before Co right that's that sounds very to be precise that there now yeah I remember because we had a question about the Landscaping that you brought up they came back with a and I don't remember whether you were here or not and M Schneider and I who had issues with the first time and I remember sitting here and looking at her as we both agreed that the that the plan was Chang cap too I think Mr cap he was worried about the small trees and how long wall that she's speaking of he was concerned about that can you explain I don't remember the wall tell me about the wall if if you remember the site the back of the building now is a service Court that's where all the loading takes place you have dumpsters back there there's a drop off from the site to the Woodland it's a little bit uh deeper than this de here but if you're on the uh shopping center side 8T 8T 10t it goes from like 6 to8 down to I think your test was two or three my my recollection was like 2 or 3 ft at this end it was about 8 ft down this end and it just sort of tapered as across but it is a drop off it is a drop off from the site to to your home right at the highest part of the wall so I'm Dro down more than most of them are right so you have more more more blockage by the the wall you have more more more what's the word I'm looking well and my recollection was and to to um this uh person's point that and we talked about this the concern is that if the planting surface is 8 ft lower than the wall they have to be more substantial right and and that was that was the gist of the last exhibit we showed I remember showing the line of sight and how tall the trees had to be to fully block the building my recollection was is the trees had a maturely had to be 40 to 60 ft so you know we couldn't plant 24in shrubs and expect that to do any good we also solve the problem by planting the trees on our property closer to her property yeah yeah yep that's exactly right that's where I was going to go we specifically on our plan showed a row of Evergreens with sensitivity to where that house was on the on the closest point to the home so the blockage is not only the trees behind but the trees right on your property line as well and you increase the height of those trees yeah we filling the voids 150 a pool of 150 plants are are committed by this applicant in to to augment that where the gaps are now plus some have to be 40 ft high before it would do any good well we did angles we did line of sight angles to show that the the plants that are proposed will block the visibility of those unless they can maybe make some kind of a firm there and then PL so they would be at least again the commitment is there the pool of plants are the commitment is there again with the site specific condition that this will be evaluated in the field as to the optimum locations and the uh Town's arborer also reviewed the plan approved it I believe the Forester get final sign and just to answer the question approximately 40 windows on each Wing but bear in mind it's an office transitional zone I'm I'm in the the buildings over at jalter drive it's a whole ribbon three levels of ribbons of Windows that that wrap around so when windows are contemplated there under the Zone plan yeah well that then there's no privacy there but there could be an office Windows there complete ribbon of of windows it's only you're getting you're much is much less Windows residential application is much less intense than what could potentially be there in terms of commercial development that's what you have to understand yeah there's going to be Windows there but there could potentially be a lot more windows with a different different use well the building that's there right now there's hardly any can I ask can I ask a question when you bought your house was there a commercial development there the building was there but it's mostly cement there's hardly any Windows was the building there when you when you you bought a piece of property that bordered on a commercial piece of property correct yes you didn't your house wasn't built at the time excuse me you can hardly tell it's there at the time because there's hardly any windows and it just Blends in but this is going to be totally different building and much higher well I'll be honest with you I'd much have rather have residential but behind me than than a commercial building because a commercial building attracts potential of rodents uh trucks back and forth you're getting the better of the and I'm not trying to testify for the for the applicant but I'm just I'm trying to get you hopefully understand unless these guys want to do it well that's the that goes towards the use argument as well one of the nice things about this application it's taking that service area away it's taking the dumpsters away it's taking the loading areas I'm sure there's some sound and some noise back there uh presently all those departments there's still going to be noise and people there's not going to be a service area back there yes it will be the sound of human voices yes any other members of the public have any questions of these Witnesses on the testimony given I hear none see none I have uh two other Witnesses if the board has any questions Mr gider or architect and uh Mr stiger our traffic expert who brought them out just in case anyone had any questions there testimony really is a needed year because we're talking about the cite traffic all the traffic issues that we discussed at the last meeting haven't changed not at all now 10 is still as busy as it was is that correct correct Mr stiger it unless there are any other questions that concludes our direct presentation let's just no significant changes from the architectural side no changes at all anybody have any problems with us not hearing that testimony no any additional testimony they need aity M you know we only have five people this is a site plan I'm just let okay um you're done that's all that isend our directives and considering that couple just left I don't think there's going to be any objectors any members of the public who wish speak an objection to this application in support of this application I hear none see none do we need to go into conference or are we happy with the not near to maybe because we don't do a lot of site plans although we do them and with the Vari but doing by themselves is there any we need to be concerned about that we have an order brought up Mr I want to defer Mr chck and I thought you might I would just act on it and authorize Pete and myself to develop the conditions we know what they are pretty much they have they and if you don't think it's there you know read the resolution and add something you have to okay do I have a volunteer to frame a resolution uh I'm sorry frame resolution authorizing the attorney to professionals and professionals I do this yourself I make the motion to I make the motion to make a resolution is there a second second any discussion I you know I almost called you Harriet Nora Nora please call how many years has it been you know what it is I see Mr MCD I see Mr stiger I I see Mr mlen I'm living five years ago you know can I say what can you say Harry you don't want to know what she was going to say you better leave I get a kick out of when Mr King asks uh Mr mcdunn if he's been qualified before this board I think the only person that's been at more meetings in the last 30 years besides me has been Mr Burt yes ready yes Sneider yes willing yes Aran yes okay result is the um resol the motion passes for a resolution drawn up for the cite point and it won't be ready in two weeks thank you everyone have a nice night I can leave leave all these papers you know it would be great if we could get electronic monitors here how many motion to adjourn all in favor I want a I want a 24 in screen so that I can see the plans right here you could do it you make a one time you make