--------- You know, it's figured out that I like modern Marvel history. Oh, yeah. That's a good one. Awesome. So, I love modern Marvel. I'd be watching like the history channel and >> [clears throat]
>> Now, when I turn YouTube on, I get a new >> [snorts] >> pops up 4 hours of boring history to Oh my gosh. >> [laughter] >> 3 hours of medieval history to fall asleep to.
It's like, I'm okay that you know me, but just don't call me out like that. >> Yeah, exactly. [laughter] It was like And that's an unsaid understanding between the two of us. But then what happens is it plays its 3 hours of boring history to fall asleep to.
And it comes on [music] with this movie that's just like running water. Oh my gosh. You know, about 3:00 >> [laughter] >> And there's all this running water. Thank you, Jesus, for that. A lot of hotels now have TVs where you can log in to your YouTube, your
Netflix, and watch stuff. Once I tried to put on like I found some like it's like a 12-hour fireplace with like light jazz and stuff. It was like it was like that's perfect. It's just like calm and in the background. Doesn't Yeah. And then I wake up at 2:00 and then I wake up and then I go and then it
goes to Bluebird again. So, each time I wake up, okay, where's where's only a horse called? Where's the horse race? [music] No, I was just resting the Bluebird myself. No, I don't like Bluebird He was That guy was proof that Mike can't win
elections. Well, from home, Terry. Is that Well, from home. You went to Greece, right? No, last week was only me. All right. And so I was out I was out on >> [snorts]
>> these two Sundays. Yeah. Mhm. I need to get you all back to the real world. Back to the real world, man. Didn't see you. Did Did you have a trip coming up, though? Uh
I I went recently back in January. Okay, that's why I was saying that. By the way, I need to answer your question today after we get lunch, right? It's time to set the mood. Yeah. Coffee right now would be great. How's your interview going?
Pick a better one for your upcoming coronation. Yeah, that's right. [music] I just thought it was my new hearing aid that I found, you know. Healthy king. It was piping something in All right, let's finish that coffee. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. The first time I heard that, I was like, "Oh, somebody took guitar lessons."
Right, cuz I listened to the early Avenged Sevenfold and then when that one came out, I'm like, "Oh." Yeah, they got better. Yeah. Yeah, they're one of the few newer hard rock groups that Yeah. Okay, they're pretty good. Yeah, stage show that they came
and matured. Mhm. Same thing happened with uh Death Punch Mhm. Yeah, very much so. Plan on being here a while? >> [laughter] >> He's got enough breakfast >> We're not taking a lunch break. That's just breakfast. That's for the afternoon session that
will go into the evening. I don't know how long it will go. Mhm. Yeah. It's got all the hallmarks of Yeah, you're going to be here a while. I figured if he's got a seat on it shortly, it's going to be comfortable.
>> [laughter] >> No, I'm actually very happy to say I had stopped wearing a suit because the suit was falling off of me because I lost a bunch of weight and it no longer fit and I would need like two pairs of
suspenders to hold the damn thing up. It's a good problem. This week, I was really frustrated cuz I haven't gone shopping to go get a new one. And I was looking forward to that, right? Getting refitted and hearing the smaller numbers. Can I seat you now?
I wonder if these suits still fit me. They've been hanging in the closet that I was too fat to fit in. And they had been dry cleaned sitting there and not I pulled the plastic them off of them. Put them on and said,
"They fit." >> [laughter] >> Save you Save you some money there. I just put So, you should save the He's a new man. the skinny clothes. I did opt to ditch the skinny suits that I had, though. in favor of the more traditional one.
Why don't you not wear one of those Jimmy Fallon jackets? I had that great pleasure I had Easter weekend went in the clothes store tried on another pair of jeans. I made it look I'm two sizes smaller.
Yeah. My back is most appreciative of it. Yeah, well, you have to tell me your secret. Is it eggs? Well, I do eat a lot of those, yeah. Eggs, no. Um The number one secret was Bud Light.
Getting rid of that. Cuz it's not really >> Or are they even starting it? >> [laughter] >> And then number two was I ditched No, I won't say all 95%
of processed foods. That's just good for you, period. So, I got rid of you know, potato chips and Doritos and Fritos and crackers and all of that kind of stuff in favor of
fresh vegetables fruits. And then that I eat them more heavier protein less carbohydrate, not no carb carbohydrate, but less carbohydrate diet. Good. I knew if I tried no carbohydrates, that
would never work. Liz, are you ready? >> [clears throat] >> I'm ready. You're ready? I didn't know I was You're ready? You You sit in the hot seat. You didn't know that? Okay. >> [clears throat] >> I'd like to bring the meeting to order.
Stand for a moment of silence. Pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
All right. Have the roll call, please. Jimmy Gerardi? Here. Christopher Poole? Here. John Moody? Here. Matthew Lyons? Here. Eric Connolly? Here. Chris Williams represented by William Divine? Here.
Chairman Charles Gray? Here. Okay, any any comments at All right. I don't think we have to do the whole pledge of allegiance when we're all here, do we? You don't have to do all that. Yeah. It's a lot of work. Yeah.
Okay, Terry. Welcome back and thank you. You have the floor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, local planning agency. Mr. Chairman, today's local planning agency comprehensive plan update session or workshop will focus on the Pasco 2050 chapter, Pasco moves,
which is the transportation element of the comprehensive plan. This is the second session on Pasco moves. The first was last week on April the 9th, wherein we discussed changes to the vision road map as well
as the corridor preservation tables. The Pasco moves chapter, like all the chapters of the comprehensive plan, have been worked on by numerous industry-related stakeholders, the county attorney's office, and county departments, including in this case the planning development economic growth department, Go Pasco,
the Pasco County Metropolitan Planning Organization, and the Transportation Engineering Department, which were significant participants and contributors in the development of the chapter. In addition to this, the planning development economic growth department facilitated the reviews for these teams and the industry-related
stakeholders in order to capture their input and facilitate the development of the draft. Moreover, it bears noting that we received significant community stakeholder feedback on the question of our transportation infrastructure needs within the county through thousands of public comments and surveys via the
Pasco 2050 project website as well as the various community workshops and open houses that were held across the county in the last two years. Today we are presenting the Pasco moves chapter. Though our plan is not to go line by line as in the other sessions,
we intend to present the big ideas for the chapter and provide you all with an overview of the new policies that were added to the proposed comprehensive plan update and any potential overview of deleted policies because either they were completed, they were made obsolete by state law changes, or were no longer
necessary. With me today is Nick the county engineer, who will continue on as one of our subject matter experts here with the Pasco moves chapter, and also Hyatt Mazile, the principal planner within planning services, who is the
project manager for the comprehensive plan update. She'll walk us through the chapter overview. You should have with you your materials, the draft chapter, a redline version of it, and the policy change tables that illustrate the various edits that have been made in this draft of Pasco moves as compared
against the current comprehensive plan transportation chapter. You should also have the data and analysis information that supports the goals, objectives, and policies of the proposed chapter. If there's any questions, we will be able to we'll be available
for discussion as well as our counterparts within Go Pasco, the planning development economic growth department, and I believe also the MPO will be present here today. Finally, this is the third workshop in our spring series here. The first workshop was on
Pasco serves. Last week was the second workshop on the first part of Pasco moves. Today is the second workshop for Pasco moves, the last one for that in that regard. We have three more workshops that are upcoming,
which are to discuss the Pasco invests chapter, the Pasco partners chapter, and lastly, the Pasco grows chapter. We've been working with our stakeholders on these throughout the winter and spring now,
finalizing particularly the partners and the growth chapters. And with that, I'll turn it over to Hyatt for the today's presentation. All right, thank you. Thank you, Terry. Good morning, gentlemen. Hyatt Mazile, Planning
Development Economic Growth. And just as Terry has mentioned, at the April 9th workshop, we walked through the the first part of Pasco moves. Which focused on the technical updates to table 7-2, the corridor preservation
table, and the associated maps. Today we're continuing that review with the second portion of the chapter, where we'll focus on the guiding principles and policy framework that completes the Pasco moves chapter. Before we begin, I
just want to show the updates that we had made based on the feedback that we got from the first portion of the discussion of this chapter. We have updated the roadway vision map to reflect the
the change in the east-west the new roadway that we are proposing. We changed the the S curve. It was double S, and now it's only one S with a bigger radius based on the feedback that we got. And also we made
edits to the table to reflect that realignment. If we do not have any comments about this update, we can move to the rest of them. I'm not sure if my memory serves me correct, Kitten Trail,
where we I thought that was being removed from the map. The Kitten Trail? Alderman Nick or Terry? >> [clears throat] >> With regard to Kitten Trail, I think the
internal discussion was that we were going to keep Kitten Trail on the vision road map. What would be then what would be the necessity with now adding Bolton having Denton Adding an additional
collector in terms of Bolton, you mean? Collecting from what? So, Bolton has been talked about to be added onto the vision road network as a collector road to build up the urban
transportation network in an area where they want there's been discussion for potential employment generating uses. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Yeah, and that's mainly that you need a um a a road that's capable of
handling the the truck volume, etc., the trucking volume. And both adding Bolton provides an an additional route that also doesn't truck in past single-family homes that may be on New York and Kitten to the south.
Like that's my concern with Kitten. Is that Kitten is predominantly single-family homes. And I don't know if you've driven out there, [laughter] but I mean, there are a lot of nice estate
style homes and factors of beautiful horse farm and training facility out there. And I would just hate to see to destroy those people's way of life out there
when there doesn't seem to be any other impetus. There's no There's not like a bunch of cross streets that join into Kitten to use it as a collector. It just seems to me it becomes a cut-through street.
And it's a street that is predominantly residential in character. Whereas Bolton and Denton out that way are not. And I completely agree with the idea of Bolton. That makes a lot of sense to me. So, the the LPA
is our preference that Kitten Trail be removed from the vision road network? You could always control the type of traffic that runs on Kitten Trail, there's no truck route, for example. Well,
I'm just trying to avoid making it a cut-through. And I guess it doesn't all have to be decided here today, but I'm guessing we're going to be here a really long time this afternoon talking about Kitten Trail and the
the type of traffic that currently exists on Kitten Trail and whether we really want to turn that into a major roadway corridor for the county. >> [clears throat] >> I'm not sure that makes sense, but I guess we'll see what happens this afternoon.
Where is our label on this map? Which which which one of these is Kitten Trail? This right here. Okay, yeah, I want to make sure. So, Bolton is below that. It's below the dashed line, Patty.
That's Kitten Trail, yes. And that intersects with Denton. Yeah. And then the north-south dotted line is extension of Colony, right? Yes, at that point it becomes, I believe, Coyote. Yeah.
But it's Colony down below, the completed portion, right? Yeah, south of Hudson. >> [clears throat] >> Okay, so what was your suggestion, Terry? Well, internal discussions uh uh considered keeping Kitten Trail.
Uh if the if there's concern about the truck traffic, that's one reason why we've we're trying to establish Bolton as a vision collector, but you can also restrict the type of traffic that's moving on Kitten Trail. Uh or the alternative
um that is a potential here as well uh is to remove Kitten Trail from the vision road network. Uh that the road is still going to be out there and people are still going to use it the way they've always been using it for the last however many years. Right. Terry, is there a comprehensive amendment that's going
with the Denton place on PD? I can't remember. On Bolton? No, there is not a comprehensive There's not a related There's not a comprehensive amendment on the Denton case to uh this afternoon. They had one, but they
withdrew that one. I'm just wondering if the LP will have another opportunity to revisit the Kitten issue. I guess their next opportunity would be when the whole
comprehensive comes back to them for action. Correct. Yeah, I mean we can we can work to address it here in this session today um because we are talking about the Pasco Moose chapter um or then again at the at the uh
actual consideration. >> I mean a A collector is a main line road that collects traffic from other intersecting streets. You don't have a bunch of intersecting
streets out there. Right. And Bolton would enter just in IOD. Bolton would >> then especially when >> [cough] >> you get east of Coyote, you're into the rural character area. And that's what I'm getting at is you
know, are we going to preserve the rural character of that area? Uh the answer is yes on that. No, I just I'm not sure why would we would want to do that. I It just seems like it would destroy the
property values in the serenity of that area out there. You know, I can remember one day >> [snorts] >> one of our lady commissioners called me and she said, "John, I'm driving out
Kitten Trail. I've never been here before." She said, "This is amazing. There are a lot of beautiful homes out here." To which I was shocked she'd never been out there on Kitten Trail. But that just doesn't seem an appropriate
place to do a collector road, my opinion. Can I ask a question? I realize I'm putting maybe Nick on the spot, but do we know what the when the model runs were done for this area, what I realize you would never
know for Bolton because Bolton's being added, but do we know what kind of volumes were being shown on Kitten and Denton? I'm just trying to figure out what the what the removal of Kitten's going to do in terms of volumes for the area. Yeah,
good morning planning commission. Nick Yuran, county engineer. Um the short answer is it it won't have an effect on regional conveyance because the road, as was previously noted, will exist whether it's on the vision road network or not. I don't have an in my
head the number that was attached to that segment of Kitten Trail in the model forecast. But it's it's a two-lane road uh today and it's going to be a two-lane road in the future whether it's a on the vision plan or not. The only investment we
would potentially seek to make because it remains on the vision road is an investment in the pedestrian and bicycle trail system that is contemplated on uh vision corridors. Whereas in the non-vision roads, we just leave them as
vehicles only. So, functionally, it's it's not a significant difference in the way that that facility would perform. That being said, I yeah, I'd I'm not certain how to ascertain the will of the commission as a whole in a
workshop discussion like this, but if the if the commission desires for us to remove it from the the vision plan network, I don't think regional conveyance will suffer as a result of that request. Well, it seems like if it's there
already anyway and it's going to remain a two-lane road, then if we take it off the vision road system, it's not going to have any negative impact. I I think what Nick is saying is it won't have a negative impact on
vehicular movement, what it might negative impact is whether the county's going to spend any money to upgrade the bicycle pedestrian network on the road. So, we would never spend any We won't spend any more money on
upgrading the road even from a bicycle pedestrian point of view if it's not in our network. I I will mention uh just as a reminder to the planning commission members, there there was a bicyclist um a fatality a a bicycle crash on Kitten Trail just
west of Cobra, which is the access road to the school site. Um and and we are investing in a sidewalk on the south side of the road at that location to provide pedestrian access to the school. I think really the the candidly, the practical implication of removing it is that
any development proposals that may come before this commission later in the day or later in the in the year or later in your terms of service, we would we would be less inclined to direct them to provide access to a road like Kitten Trail if it was not a vision
collector road. And we would be less inclined to mandate that they invest in pedestrian infrastructure along Kitten Trail if it was not a vision road. And that may be the primary impetus for considering removal. >> I think you'll hear this afternoon that
the people like their country road. And then I think if you look at the pattern of lots and tracts out there other than the project we're going to listen to this afternoon, there's no
substantive development track track out there that would be the impetus to create these facilities. And these are people that live on 1 5 10 acre tracts. They've got their horses and So, it's just a question of whether they
would like to have a bike bike trails and such as that. Are they or is not important to them? So, I guess the question is if you want to make a recommendation to staff now or wait until after you've heard from the public this
afternoon and Well, that would be the thing That would be a reasonable thing. Wait till after you've heard from I'm only one voice. I think there'll be many out here later today. >> [snorts] >> From a school board perspective over
here, we would want to see sidewalks. There are a lot of people who walk and enter from that side. So, there would be a concern if this wasn't on there and then that somehow doesn't allow for sidewalks or prohibits or hinders that, that would be
a concern. Yeah, if this project gets approved, there's going to be a lot of kids cut through the the back there over to Kitten Trail to walk over to school. And and I actually had a question for John. Um I'm I mean I've been on Kitten Trail, but I I'm not there super often.
Um but do you know how many people really travel that road to cut through? And I know that might not be something you know, but I have no idea how many people would I'm What I'm trying to avoid is it being
used as a cut through. Uh-huh. Okay, I do think Bolton is a good idea if it the if you look at the development pattern along the proposed Bolton, we're going through an old county wastewater treatment plant and we're we're not
going through an area where people have developed properties in an estate residential style. I don't have any objection to having pedestrian facilities where they serve Hudson High School, but you guys they only walk so far, right? This is
much longer than 2 miles of roadway. Clearly up clearly in and around the school, that's appropriate. I think as you get farther and farther out on Kitten, I think the people are going to express that they prefer their
country road. Well, I think it's a good suggestion that we wait till the afternoon session. >> Yeah, I appreciate Yeah, like I said, I'm one voice. You should hear from There's lots of other opinions. Well, Terry, can you just can you and I just maybe make a note to
when the full comp plan comes back to the LPA, that's the way you call out this issue so that The status of Kitten Trail. >> Like the status of Kitten Trail so
the planning commission can make a decision at that point Okay. about whether to either keep it or not. We can do that. Yeah. Um So then we can
Should we Should we continue with the presentation? >> Yeah. Okay. My apologies. I I had one other question on the map. The St. Joe Road as an arterial, how does that mesh or conflict with the Northeast Rural Area
guidelines we have? Yeah, St. Joe's an arterial. >> [snorts] >> I think St. Joe today is an arterial road, but it's I think on the ultimate lanes map it's four, it's two now. I know a lot of argument we got about developments along
St. Joe Road that's got to be two lanes. It's going to be two lanes forever cuz it's a scenic highway. So does that making that four lanes conflict with the Northeast Rural Plan? Are we changing anything as it relates to St. Joe Road? Yes. They are. So it went from It went from
It went from two to It went from two to four ultimate lanes. That's right. It's a two-lane collector in the current comp So in the current comp plan it's a plan as a two-lane collector. And in the if I heard that correctly. Uh and then the proposal here is to make it
a four-lane arterial. Right this in this version of the vision road map. Um would there be a conflict? I mean Uh it's a change, not necessarily a conflict because what would then happen
is a updating of of the subsequent documents like in the land development code, the scenic road uh information in in in the land development code for St. Joe Road would be updated to reflect uh a four-lane scenic road.
Assuming that this would be carried forward. >> and roads that you might have to alter to reflect this change. Um I could be wrong. Is it one of the scenic roads that's not supposed to be like
St. Joe currently is noted in the land development code as such, yeah. I could have sworn there was a policy Is there a scenic road? >> and these roads or maybe even in the MOVES that talks about the limits
roadway expansions in the Northeast Rural Area. Has this been shared with stakeholders in the Northeast Rural Area? I'm guessing our regular speaker, Ms. Hazelwood, probably would have something to say on this subject.
Probably more than 3 minutes that we gave her last >> [laughter] >> Probably more than 3 minutes. Let [clears throat] us Let us double check the draft of GROWS really quick. Okay. Remember she lives on A nice place. And where is that?
An happily named road. It is a very good question. I mean I'm done for today. No. >> [laughter] >> I'm good. We're just getting started. We're just getting started. We got a whole day. Mhm. Okay, so I'm saying I just pulled up
604.4. It says subject to the policies of FLU 2112 and TRA 235, the number of necessary travel lanes for the rural scenic roadways is limited to two unless otherwise required and consistent with chapter 7 transportation element
table 7.4 A Pasco County Corridor Preservation Table. So I I guess that goes back to the if we update the table then it updates that limitation within the Northeast Rural Area. Yeah, the the land development code is um
more descriptive and likely at this if we compare it against this map more restrictive Okay. than what this map is showing. Not necessarily a conflict though. Okay. Um But if the corridor preservation tables are talking about an ultimate
four-laning of St. Joe then we would consider We would have to think about what kind of adjustments need to be made to the land development code to accommodate the comprehensive plan's vision for St. Joe. In terms of the actual scenic scenic
road policy in in GROWS, um it would be at this point the numbering is GROWS 3 113, which I know it's not familiar to you all. But um it does not identify
a number of lanes or collector arterial status. It just identifies what the scenic road should be looking for in terms of preserving existing canopy trees, planting new canopy trees, landscaping requirements, and so forth.
As well as I the identification of which roadways are the scenic roads, which include um County 52 from Sharber Road extended east of Dade City limits, St. Joe Road, Plant Road, Bellamy Brothers Road, and Trilby Road to the extent that they were
located in Northeast Pasco County Rural Area. And then there's the rural roadway system policy. What that states um specific collector arterial and rural residential roads shall not be expected to require nor are they planned to receive capacity
improvements over the 25-year planning period unless otherwise consistent with the Pasco MOVES chapter. Uh and then that policy is policy GROWS 3115 and that does reference the corridor preservation tables that that have been
discussed um at the last workshop. Okay. And I Well, what I see is it it's I'm going to go back and maybe David can ask the question better just like he asked about Kitten Trail.
What does that do to our roadway network if that remains a two-lane scenic roadway rather than a four-lane roadway? Driving 52 every morning, it would help. >> [laughter] >> Um
the the 52's loaded heavy. I understand that. Um But I It's the same question I think I asked at the last meeting. I asked what happens if we don't have a parallel reliever to
52 and I think Nick answered that question. I think he's basically saying St. Joe is the part of that parallel reliever system. I think Nick effectively answered the question at the last meeting but I'll let him answer
thinks otherwise. Did you have a question? I did. Can you repeat the question, David? So Commissioner Moody's asking what happens if we don't have St. Joe as a four-lane road and
I believe we had this discussion at the last meeting that that you you were considering St. Joe part of this parallel system to 52. And we had the discussion about where the 52 fails in build-out scenario.
Right. Is that I guess my question is would you give the same answer today that you gave last time? I would. Okay. Can you give the answer now? Yeah. Oh, there we are. Um
Yeah, same same response. We're looking at ways to provide a parallel reliever and and connectivity to the employment center that is Dade City. And so that's part of the discussion of what does the regional transportation network need to entail.
As far as the the forecasted volumes associated with um St. Joe Road I think the rural land uses along the corridor suggest that a two-lane road would provide adequate capacity for the predicted demand.
And then the question becomes has the model accurately predicted how busy State Road 52 will be in the future in order to anticipate the need for parallel relief from a facility like this. I'm not sure I understood your answer.
So you're Are you saying that it's sufficient at two lanes? I'm saying our travel demand model says two lanes is enough on St. Joe, but that the model might be wrong. Well, let me add to what he said. He also said that
the model shows that 52 fails, but that model may be wrong, also. Well, anything could be wrong. When I have a crystal ball I think the whole I think what I'm to put paraphrase what I think he's saying is that the reason he created St. Joe and this
blue road was to relieve 52, not because of it St. Joe was failing. Right, I understand St. Joe's. I understand St. Joe is not failing. And I understand why you would want to have a parallel reliever to 52.
This sort of goes back to the whole Kitten Trail discussion in that are we going to just forsake these folks' way of lives
for a road that right now we're not sure we need or we don't need? I mean, I don't think there's a lot of impact from that in blue line area. Well, I do think St. Joe Road is a little different than Kitten But I mean, I've driven on St. Joe Road. I'm
not sure the people who live on St. Joe St. Joe Road have quite the same expectation that those who live on Kitten Trail. It It's a fairly I mean, it's already a operating as a collector road, clearly.
Absolutely. My concern and I'm not saying it's a no, but my concern is that I think in general when we start building bigger and better transportation
facilities, development pressure follows it. Remember the days, David, you'll have to think way back to this, when we were planning the widening of State Road 54,
and we all got told, "We will never let State Road 54 become the next US 19." And what have we got? We got the next US 19 on State Road 54, and that's my concern. Or now, all of a
sudden, we we go out here and do this, and we declare this thing's going to be an arterial roadway, then are we going to see a sea of comp plan amendments and proposed development changes out there to allow development along that roadway? That's what happens. Development follows
roadways. Of course, we're years away from seeing that road actually being widened. But then, you you could also see a future where development comes in along at a request along at and they say, "Well, they they made it a vision road. Obviously, they
were anticipating this." Correct. I mean, I think if to me, if the model shows that two lanes works, but it might be wrong, even if it might be wrong, then I think showing this two lanes is probably So So, does the model show that the two
lanes work with the addition of this blue dash line? So, does the model for St. Joe That's whenever he's done with Eric. So, does the model for St. Joe say that it works with the addition of the blue
dash line, with the addition of that vision road? Cuz obviously, you add that, then you're going to get extra traffic from the Hudson area that's going to be using St. Joe that wasn't using it before. So, it may work now, but will it work with the addition of that blue dash line?
So, here the the answer I'm going to give is not the answer you want me to give you. It We are not doing scenario modeling as part of this comp plan update. Got it. So, the the the model that we are using to generate recommendations
as as and these are part of the corridor preservation table. So, we're saying it would it may behoove us to preserve the ability to have this additional capacity in the future, not to construct it, but to preserve our ability to have it.
Um is based on predicted congestion levels on the State Road 52 corridor from that model run. We have not performed multiple iterations with with changes to the network up to anticipate what diversions would
look like and how much relief would the blue line and potentially investment in additional capacity along the St. Joe corridor provide to the State Road 52 corridor. >> What does it take to do that? Um It takes time and money.
Did you Did Did you say how much time and money? Well, that might be the follow-up question. >> [laughter] >> It seems to me that you're you're saying, "Well,
we're taking a giant swag at what we need for roads when we actually do have the ability I know I don't know what the limitations of these models are. Doesn't sound like you have a whole lot of trust in them. Um but
at least if a model run if the models show that yeah, we need this, at least there's something to support that. But right now, it sounds like we don't really have anything to support that. Yeah. >> I think that I think the more important
thing, too, for this is that I'm I'm not sure if I heard the answer to it, but has there been public stakeholder involvement? Cuz I guarantee if Miss Hazelwood was in the room right now, Yeah, I I agree. I think we would come half a dozen others, as well. Yes. So, I think that's
an important aspect, I think. You know, that needs to to be addressed if it hasn't. That's a big change to that area. >> Yes, absolutely. Talking about widening St. Joe. Yeah. >> Yeah. Do we know how protective Miss Hazelwood
is of that area and others up there? So, Yeah, it seems like that would be the only reason to justify is if by adding that dash blue line there, you whatever extra added traffic that's pumped into St. Joe demands that extra lane. Because as it sits, it's probably fine.
I do appreciate what David says, too. It's you can drive that road, it's a whole different scenario than driving Kitten Trail. Oh, yeah. Um >> Sure. So, I mean, that it the availability to widen that road is there, but I still think the public stakeholder involvement is very important for that
that road. That's a very contentious case cases on on that road. Well, and we'd have to look at the we've denied We'd have to look at the connection, too, between the dash blue line and St. You know, St. Joe. So, that
downward dog leg that we'd probably have to straighten the corner, and it's a 90° corner right there. There's also some sort interesting dynamics to I think if you designate it as arterial, Nick, doesn't it
control access spacing, as well? Doesn't it make it less than easy? Means less connections to the road if it's an arterial. That's right. Access connections are required to be farther apart, which results in fewer connection possibilities to the corridor. So,
arguably, means possibly less development would connect to it. The question of how much activity each driveway would have to support is a difficult one to answer. But but there would be less driveway connections permitted to the corridor. I don't know
if that means that there would be less activity at those driveway connections. There's [clears throat] also the question of um >> [snorts] >> sort of to the to the point that Eric was making. There's also the question of the agricultural policies that we could
consider or that we will be considering when Pasco grows comes forward as part of the northeast rural discussion, and [clears throat] how and what type of development we would want to even allow. You know, you could build the road
as small as large as you like, but at the end of the day, the land use policy is going to control what actually goes out there. So, ideally, you build the road, I think we we would all be in agreement that ideally, you build a road that's necessary and right for the
for the land use pattern of the area. I hear you, but it is currently or tomorrow. I hear you, but we come here every 2 weeks to change the comprehensive plan. >> [snorts] >> Well, I'm not I'm not just talking about the future land use, though. There are other policies
um that can uh there we have agricultural primacy policies, for example, that can help influence whether or not it's even appropriate for a flu change to take place. Well, I think we've
shown that when we want to make a text amendment to the plan to accommodate something that that can happen. So, And And we'll say too that just for the sake of the workshop, that when it has come to the rural areas, we've been very um
conservative and very reserved in terms of any kind of flu change happening therein. Basically, only following exactly what the comprehensive plan may tell us. We had that one res one case a few months ago. Um But in any other instance, uh it's only
been at the direction of either the Board of County Commissioners or um some kind of fact on the ground. There was a presence of utility on the periphery uh in one case where we would actually we actually made a recommendation to change the boundary
or to change the the um intensity or density of the flu. Can I ask So, it's very rare, in other words. >> Can I ask you one question? I guess even as a collector, it could still be four lanes, right?
That's correct. Except you made it an arterial because of the connection to the interstate. The concept of the arterial roadway network is that it would provide connectivity to a um Bellamy Road corridor as a grid network relieving State Road 52 and to the I-75
corridor, as well as at the east end to the to the Dade City city limits. And the reason we terminate the arterial designation at the County Road 52 um 21st Street intersection is because once you go east of that, you have the grid network within the city limits that
provides the ability to disperse trips into the city instead of concentrating all of them on the one corridor. And to the to the west, you terminated it at Bellamy because because there's nothing west of Bellamy. Well, there's this other road that's sort of
Right, but if you remember that other road's on the northern boundary of the Tampa Bay water Pinellas County well field property. That if you extended Saint Joe due west, that's you go right through the middle of it. Right. Plus a bunch of wetlands. >> about this north-south road. I don't
know what that is. Oh, the one just west of I-75. >> road the dotted road? The north-south road that goes up to the dotted road. What is that? That's the extension of Old Pasco Road um that's currently part of the county's comprehensive plan. Now,
I'm talking about Saint Joe Road. Or Bellamy Brothers That's That's Bellamy Brothers still. It's still Bellamy Brothers, right? Yeah, it's Bellamy Brothers up >> Bellamy Brothers. Oh, yeah. There's a jog in Bellamy Brothers corridor. It goes west for a few hundred feet and then it continues north. Yeah, right Pat right north of Saint Joe
is a short >> out is why is it that Saint Joe and/or Bellamy Brothers are not an arterial up to the blue road? That's the question that I asked. That's a subjective conversation. Um
I think that realignment of the east-west corridor north of 52 also resulted in it being designated as a two-lane collector road. And generally speaking, we don't have any in the proposed update to the comp plan, we do not have any two-lane arterial
roadways. If the ultimate corridor intention is a two-lane facility, then it is not able to be designated as an arterial. So, is it I guess you didn't upgrade that beat to four lanes because of the thought that
the traffic would sort of split that point between Bellamy and whatever that east-west road is? If you're talking about what would happen if trips are coming from the west on the new blue corridor,
>> Yes. they they could go south on Bellamy, they could go east on Johnston, which is the existing two-lane road that this intersects with and aligns to. So, you're you're basically saying that neither one of those roads need to be four lanes because the traffic would split.
That's correct. Okay. And the And the blue line is again, it it's shown as blue because it's proposed as a controlled access facility, but it is an ultimate two-lane controlled access facility. Okay. To minimize the environmental impact and the footprint of the corridor
through that area. So, I guess what I'm asking then is if Saint Joe Road did not connect to the interstate, would you still recommend it be an arterial? I would connect those two. I would say if if there's no connectivity to I-75, then the need for a four-lane corridor is significantly
diminished. And if we have a connection to I-75, isn't it logical to foresee people will want to develop all four quadrants of that interchange as it happens with every other interstate interchange? Mhm. I think that's the issue is
in that location, we got to decide whether we're going to do that or not. Cuz we've already got the We've talked about the employment center up at Blanton and 75. We've already seen that talked about it before the road's
been with just the connection. It's not a great connection. With the demand for development there. Yes. I just think if you do that, that's going to apply development pressure in an area where we're trying to steer development away from.
I agree with that. And I mean It depends on your perspective. Cuz Yeah. I understand. It's a balance. Yeah, because even in northeast Pasco, when we adopted the northeast Pasco road protection area, we carved out the employment center as
>> But that's that's my point is is it it's not that far of a reach to figure out, okay, if I connect Saint Joe to I-75, well, then someone's going to want an employment center right there. I'm just saying there is precedent for carving out the adjacent
interstate ramps from I get it. >> protection. That's all I'm saying. >> Right. I get it. I get it. And just because it's a Saint Joe related, how does does the corridor protection that this would
direct us to make, does that affect the current work that's going to go on the realigned Meridian to Saint Joe? Cuz that's the going to be a thing with everything I've seen there is like a two-lane intersection. Do we need to do that? Does that
necessitate any additional corridor there for that project now or no? I think you're asking about the DOT managed project to realign um Saint Joe/Suwannee, which very interesting backstory to that. The
The west leg at the Saint Joe um 21st Street County Road 52 intersection is actually a city maintained roadway for a few thousand feet, and then it becomes a county road just just west of the intersection. Uh and that's why the Suwannee name is is part
of that project. Uh The The project to realign and and create a four-leg intersection is I I think it's compatible with what is envisioned Okay. as part of this proposal. Uh but again, I I I want to commend the commission for wrestling with these
questions because this is the exact question that we wrestled with as staff trying to figure out should we include these items as a recommended component of the update to the comprehensive plan. And knowing that you gave this a lot of thought, I mean, if we think it's imperative to
have the ability to maintain corridor on Saint Joe, I think we should accompany it with some I mean, I know the northeast rural area policy kind of gets to it, but something plainly that says this isn't intended to drive development
or support development. It's purely as a an alternative to as a parallel reliever to 52 if needed. I don't know if that's feasible or not, but just something that kind of gives us what we might potentially need someday, but also
doesn't tries not to open the door to use this as uh justification for wanting to develop near or on that corridor, I guess, is what I'm trying to get at. Cuz I think we've heard it before where
some just face, well, it's a vision road. It's going to to it'll support this later. I think [clears throat] an outstanding question I have that we're not really talking about, too, is this dotted line this blue dotted line we're talking about that they're getting on our map is division
road. >> [clears throat] >> You know, what are how are we compensating the property on this road? How can I run it through that property? It's going to impact their the use of that property. Well, it depends. Um
if they stay as passive [clears throat] land owners, we'd have to condemn it. Um if they come in to develop it, then we'd work with them to provide credits in some way mobility fee credits. And it would just depend on whether they
come in for development or not. I mean, there is a there is a concept we have talked about, but it didn't go over very well when we tried to do it on State Road 54, which is um there was a concept we talked about on State Road 54, which is building
elevated managed lanes. Um similar to what they did on Gandy Boulevard. I don't know if you're familiar with what they did. What they did. When we proposed that on State Road 54, it didn't go very well. Um but I do remember Commissioner
Schrader at the time saying, "Why don't we try to do this on State Road 52?" Um I only bring it up because we're now at that point. Um because State Road 52 is looking like it's going to fail. And
you know, maybe we should have a be having a discussion and should we be looking at building elevated managed lanes on 52? I I was thinking that driving down 52 the other day. You could do that because then then you if you do that, that
builds additional capacity on 52 without having to build a parallel road somewhere else. Um but it does create additional visual impact to those on 52. >> costly. It is costly.
Um it's not it's not cheap. Um but in the case of 54, we actually [clears throat] had a company from Spain that was going to build it as a toll road. It wasn't going to make us pay anything. But it wasn't very politically popular.
Um My only point is that it it's feasible to do, um but it does create additional visual impacts and it's not cheap. Well, this this [clears throat] blue road up
here if we put that road in, it's also not going to be cheap. So. Yeah, I it it's not going to be cheap, but it's certainly going to be cheaper than building I mean, they also you've seen it on the Crosstown, they do the same thing. The Crosstown has an elevated managed lane.
Right. I mean, it it can be done, but it you're almost always building that as a toll facility because it's almost impossible to finance something like that as a free road. >> [clears throat] >> This is this is such a heavily rural
area up here where this line is. And I see the need for it, but I just um you know, once you draw it on the map, you might as well have taken it from the property owner. So. Because they they can't use it.
They can't My only point is that I think what in Nick's defense, he was asked by the board, "What are you going to do about 52? When it fails is we're allowing all we collectively as a county, including this
board, are continuing to allow development on 52. And it appears, although we're not certain, that it may very at some point result in the failures on 52 even at 6 lanes. So,
what is our plan going to be when that occurs? We didn't do a very good job to Commissioner Weedy's point planning for this on 54. And so now we're we're potentially building flyovers. I think that's why we're expressing the concern that all of the sudden and
what we're witnessing what we witnessed along 54, what we're witnessing along 52, isn't it logical to think that will happen along Saint Joe Road if all of the sudden we make it an arterial roadway? Right, but at the same time we can't just
operate with blinders on and assume that 52 is just going to magically not going to become 54. Is that well alleviate some of the volume on 52 by doing Saint Joe in this blue dashed line?
Nick, did you uh contemplate elevated managed lanes at all for 52 as a alternative? We we did not. Yeah, I didn't okay. And again, in Nick's defense, I can see why he wouldn't No, certainly. Just when we attempted to do that he wasn't here when we tried this.
So, he would have no way of knowing this. But when the planning department tried to do this on State Road 54, they had a huge crowd and went into the huge auditorium where they were basically spears were being thrown at them because they were
proposing something like this on State Road 54. I don't know if you all were here when this happened, but Richard Geary was not a very popular person that proposed proposed this. So, it does not surprise me that the staff would not propose something like this on
52. Certainly. And I I mean, but at the same time at least 52 there's there's less people to live on 52 now. So, if you were going to propose something like this, this would be a better time to do it.
But it might might be more supportive if it's in an effort to maintain the rural area, which is the big deal for everybody in that general area. So. I I I think ultimately I think what the board is looking for is
what are we going to do to make sure we don't repeat the mistakes we made on 54 on 52. Certainly. To go back to your concern about loss of property, I mean, I know it's an unpopular opinion, but that's why it made more sense in my mind for the dotted line to
be further south through the well fields. As I think you can mitigate to the road and you know, and then but that's property that's not going to be developed anyway. And then you have a better line across there as well. You want to go down to
Pinellas County and tell them Like I said, it's an unpopular opinion. I mean, the other challenge if looking at the the wetlands and the well field, that's that's a challenging route all together. I mean, the other option we had obviously was Bridge Road,
but we had the same problem there because east of Conner we have another well field, which may be equal to or worse than the problem we have with this. I think one of the things we have to look at, too, is, you know, I hear Nick in that he sees a large
employment he's he's trying to connect to employment centers. But maybe we have to do a better job of matching the employment center to the employees.
For instance, we've got warehousing and distribution out there in this employment center. And do we really think the people of Morada and Epperson are warehouse and distribution center workers?
We've got the wrong people living in the wrong area. If we want people to minimize trips and they want to live and work in the same area, we got to do a better job of trying to match that up. Building warehouses and distribution
around doctors and lawyers doesn't fit with minimizing their commute. It's like the only thing we're building. There's a brand new hospital going up at Overpass Road. No, but if we want to look on a square footage basis, I think what we tend to do and and don't
get me wrong, I'm not trying to be critical of anybody, is we tend to lump all employment into a boat, right? If somebody comes in and proposes a big distribution center, we say, "Hey,
there's jobs. There's employment." But do the people that really live in that area, are they going to be the ones employed there? And I don't know what you do to fix that. It's [clears throat] just food for thought. >> alignment, so
if a developer actually came in along that corridor and said, "I want to realign this road." We would probably like them What do you want to study? So, now we've compensated somebody based on the alignment, and we bought right-of-way
for something that for a road we didn't It doesn't match the alignment that is actually going to be built. Didn't we talk about that last week? The The The advantage to it though is is that
if you buy the right-of-way today, it's probably going to be a lot cheaper than it will be 20 years from now when you decide to build the road. Well, in this vision road, you guys try to stay along property lines, I would assume, right? Not cutting right through middle properties.
I don't There's no way to tell by looking at this map where Yeah, I don't know. You know, see the overlay against the parcels, I guess, but Mr. Chairman, Yes, I'm all right. Go ahead. We We still need to go through the goals, objectives, and policies
um overview presentation. Okay. So, We're running out of time, is that what you're telling me? Um Kind of. >> [laughter] >> I mean, we have 15 minutes till lunch. Okay, go ahead. So, um
we've noted the Kitten Trail discussion in the St. Joe uh >> [clears throat] >> alignment discussion. So, we'll we'll There'll probably be some additional conversations about this when we bring this back again. So, uh if you'll allow us, we'll we'll
transition over to the presentation and move through that so we can have any other discussion that may be necessary on the draft policies. Good morning again. Height Mazili, Planning Development Economic Growth, and uh we're going to keep things moving to the next slide.
So, Pasco Moves is the new name of the existing transportation element. This chapter is required under chapter 163 of the Florida Statutes, and it provides a strategic framework to guide the delivery of multimodal transportation services, including performance
standards, future system improvements, and coordination with local, regional, and state transportation plans. So, what has changed in this update? Uh like we did with the other chapters, we have organized and streamlined the structure of the goals, objectives, and
policies. The chapter now has five goals. We did not add any new goals, and uh we have 18 objectives, one of which is new, and 90 policies, including 14 new policies. We have also made extensive housekeeping changes. We
consolidated overlapping policies, deleted outdated policies, and also deleted policies that are already addressed in the LDC. Um or they're addressed in other chapters. We also updated language for many of the policies to clarify the intent and
remove any redundancies. We also made couple edits to comply with to comply with statutory requirements. Overall, these updates uh make Pasco Moves easier to navigate and more consistent and better aligned with the overall um
vision or long-term mobility um goals for the county. So, what that looks like in practice is reflected in the proposed new objective and policies, which I will be discussing in
this slide. So, rather than walking through each individual policies, um I'll reserve that for the detailed discussion later. I want to highlight the key themes that these new objective and policies are centered around. So, the first theme is
the future-ready transportation. A A major focus of this update is preparing Pasco County for the future of transportation. That includes integrating emerging technologies and planning for autonomous and connected vehicles. Uh for example, policies Moves
1.1.3, Integration of Emerging Transportation Technologies, and Policy Moves 1.1.4, Autonomous and Connected Vehicle Infrastructure, are really about making sure our transportation system can evolve as technology continues to change.
We're also looking ahead uh to things like advanced air mobility and pilot programs, which Policy Moves 4.3.3 is addressing. So, we're not just planning for today, but for what's coming next.
The second theme is connected and multimodal network. Uh there's a strong emphasis on creating a more connected and multimodal network. This includes policies such as the Active Transportation Plan, the Greenway Trails and Blueway Master Plan,
and building out a connected bicycle and pedestrian system. We're also identifying transit emphasis corridors to highlight the land use and transportation connection, and also supporting regional transit, um which are all aimed at giving residents more
options beyond just driving. The next theme is safety and complete streets. So, safety is another uh core theme throughout these policies, um of course, anchored by new transportation safety objective Moves 1.7. Uh supporting policies like complete
streets, safe streets for all, and safe routes to school, we enforce designing roadways that are safe for all users. This is really about creating a system that works safely for drivers, pedestrians, bicyclists, and transit users alike.
And lastly, uh the fourth theme is standards and implementation. Um so, these policies or these new policies focus on how we implement and support um the transportation system. For example, ultimate lanes and right-of-way
standard, um and then Moves Policy Moves 1.2.5 help ensure we're planning appropriately for future capacity, while policies on public outreach and education help um keep the community informed and engaged. So, together, all these themes um ensure
that the vision is not just planned, but actually carried out. And just to note, these themes already exist in the um existing transportation element. So, these policies only reinforce and add a
little bit more emphasis on um what we're trying to do. Or carrying out the vision. And speaking of the vision, this slide shows how the goals, objectives, and policies of Pasco Moves directly reflect the community vision, especially around
the theme of mobility enhancement. So, when we did our workshops and open houses in the last 2 and 1/2 years, the community asked for safer crossings, better network connectivity, stronger transit links and connections, and
expanded sidewalks and trails. And this table demonstrates how each of those community priorities translates directly into a specific Moves policy within the chapter. We're not just acknowledging the feedback, we are
embedding it into a policy framework that guides the long-term planning, development, review, and capital improvements. And this concludes my little presentation or overview about the Pasco Moves. Now, I'll open up for discussion
about these policies. Okay, can we go through the 14 new ones? Yes, sir. Specific theme or you just want to call out the ones that you want to talk about? At the risk of sounding rude, and I don't mean to be, I mean
this got thrown at us days before the workshop. I mean, if there's 14 policies we could go through them. Okay. Will you be following along with me on the Hopefully. Okay, let's try it through. Patty, would you please pull it up?
Thank you. All right, so let's look at the first policy. First one, new policy. 1.1.3 Integration of emerging transportation technology. So, 1 1 1 3 and 1 1 4 um >> [clears throat]
>> both of these policies pretty much support alignment with FDOT initiatives and prepares the county for what's coming in terms of emerging mobility technologies, while of course allowing flexible non-mandatory evaluation of future transportation
needs. Do we have any comments about the language? Is it something that we want to keep as we look ahead at all these technologies? I think addressing it is a good thing. Me, too. I think I brought it up last
time we met and was asking the same thing, you know, what planning for drones and that kind of thing. I see advanced air mobility included, that's great. Okay, perfect. So, while we are talking about drones and air mobility, we're going to go to policy
5.1.10, and that's on page 46. So, that's about um emerging mobile mobility pilot programs. So, we are just want to make sure that we're considering participating in any pilot programs in partnership with FDOT,
regional agencies, universities, um FAA, of course, to evaluate any transportation technologies, you know, for autonomous vehicle, connected vehicle system, and advanced air mobility. We also added a policy about air taxis,
and that should be policy 5.10 is emerging advanced air mobility services. I'm sorry, say that again, Derek? I I said advanced air mobility services to his point. Yes. That's great. Okay. It's coming. We mentioned
vertiports in in the definition Yes, so I added a definition. Where would the are those co-located facilities to some of our airports or would I mean, I don't get a little bit granular on that, but just curious how what the vision for
something like that would be. Vertiports are um an interesting animal. They can be located at airports, certainly. Um they can be as independent as even helipads, as we've known them in the
past. But vertiports can also be integrated in general commercial infrastructure. Um we've actually dealt with Walmart uh in their establishment of small-scale vertiports when they convert portions of their
parking lot for uh drone delivery services, essentially. [clears throat] So, um the vertiport siting is going to be um driven mostly by the private sector in that sense, but it's also going to be
regulated by the FAA uh in terms of launch and then airspace, the type of airspace that they're going to fly in, um and then the the routing of the delivery is also going to be controlled by um FAA.
The um what the what the county is going to be involved in on our side of the equation will mainly be about making sure that the surrounding environment it can be can retain compatibility with the vertiport. So,
that can happen in a couple of different ways. Obviously, drones are a little bit more um agile in their flight as compared to an airplane that needs a runway protection zone and all that kind of fun stuff. Um so, a a drone will be able to launch
vertically and land vertically. Uh so, when when the county is looking at that kind of stuff, we're going to be looking at how does landscaping and nearby buildings how are those impacted? Um but also in the in the opposite direction. Do we want to
be screening vertiports? How do we dress the vertiport up? Um that sort of information. Also, noise regulation, how to address um the overall appearance and other nuisance factors that may be
uh involved in the vertiport. So, I don't know if that answers your question 100%. It is sort of a new realm of planning. It's brand new. Yeah. Now, the large commercial nodes seem to make sense, you know, outlet centers, Right. all that stuff seems to Yeah, once they're going to be generally
located next to uh heavily trafficked roadways, you know, off-take some of that some of that volume from the roadway, it makes sense to have those more to larger commercial nodes and the like, so. But the one thing that we won't be able to do is is control flight path. Right.
So, it's not as if you can say that great, you know, Target or Walmart, they set up their little vertiports in excess parking lots or wherever they may put them, uh and then say, "Okay, can only fly down the State Road 54 corridor and then turn where the streets are and then fly
to your to your delivery like that, like like a truck would, right?" You can't control that. That's all FAA controlled, and those are going to be basically as the crow flies. Come and go. And deconfliction also takes place by
FAA. They manage the Jerry, um definition of bike lane, um supposedly part of our Moves this. First of all, I thought we were moving away from this definition or getting rid of
bike lanes, um I really like your definition of multi-purpose lanes because it's much more flexible about what can go in the lane. Um but your definition of bike lane says for the exclusive use of bicycles.
So, the way I read that, that means that if I in my if I'm in my vehicle and I temporarily use it cuz my car is broken down, I'm apparently violated the comp plan.
Or someone's using it with a You can use it with a scooter or Or for something bike >> Yeah, electric scooter or me. I don't know why we have to put in our comp plan that it's for the exclusive use of bicycles.
I I don't I'm not sure we need to do any any have any lane that's for the exclusive use of anybody. I mean, the multi-purpose lane definition is fantastic cuz it it talks about multiple functions and it's not limited to any particular
function. It's a multi-purpose >> not designed for cars. Right. It's It's It says it's context sensitive and it gives you much more flexibility about what can go in the lane. And then you have this very restrictive definition of bike lane that basically says
only one person can use it. I mean further down there's a multi-purpose lane. So, why are we being so restrictive on who can use a bike lane? Yeah, the purpose is defined. I think it was in keeping with the actual titling of this
type of facility, bike lane. But, uh that's a good point that you raise and I think the definition could probably be without the word exclusive. >> of all, do we even need I mean I don't I don't even know if we're still calling things bike lanes, but if we are
even if we are, then I'd rather we just call it multi-purpose lane because that's a better I actually like that definition much better. Mr. Chair, if I Yes. Yeah, um it's a width issue. It If you only have 4 or 5 ft, it's not
wide enough to allow the other uses that are described in the multi-purpose lane. And we have some bike lanes that exist, so we're just describing an existing condition that doesn't mean we're promoting the construction of additional facilities like that.
But, if you only have 4 or 5 ft designated, then you only you only type of vehicle permitted in that area is a bicycle. Well, why can't a scooter Right. A low-speed neighborhood electric vehicle, golf cart, yeah, would work
just fine. Well, I think his his point probably it's too narrow for the golf carts, but there are we we we have this whole issue of now of what what's a bike now that e-bikes are out on the scene, there's a whole issue of what's a moped, what's a motorcycle, what's a bike, what's an
e-bike. But, I could see where Or scooters. perhaps it's more appropriate for an e-bike that goes 35 mph to ride in that bicycle lane than it is to ride on the sidewalk. Mhm.
But, I guess my my larger point is that to me the bike lane I understand that its predominant use is for bicycles, but in an emergency it does function as a breakdown shoulder in reality.
The reality I'm talking about reality. Sure. And so, for you to say that it's for the exclusive use of bicyclists means that you're ignoring that reality. I think staff hears you. I'm I'm looking at the edits and they're just striking
the word exclusive from the definition to recognize that it that that that that area of the roadway could be >> to understand what is the consequence, David. What are you trying to get at? What's the ramification of what There's obviously something about this
language that you're concerned Well, I'm I'm concerned about the problem. I guess it's the lawyer. I'm [laughter] concerned that somebody uses it as a breakdown lane,
somebody gets somebody rear-ends them while they're in the breakdown lane, a creative personal injury lawyer looks at it and says, "You were never supposed to be in there. You were violating the law being in this lane because that was exclusively for bicyclists." Issue I see is someone on a e-scooter
getting ticketed driving down the bike lane. They're doing 25 mph on e-scooter, which is not suitable for a sidewalk. Also, you can you can fit a golf cart. But, I mean that's my primary concern. My secondary concern is >> [clears throat and cough]
>> I don't know why any scooter can't use it. Well, I me too. I don't know why any scooter can't use it versus I think they ought to be there rather than on the sidewalks. Although, I would prefer personally that we have the multi-use paths and get the bike lanes off the road
until until they want to pass Well, I think we have laws about texting and driving until they actually want to enforce laws about texting and driving, then I would say you must be suicidal to ride in the bike bike lane, but I mean if it says something that it's
designed to be predominantly used for bicyclists, I don't maybe that's some softer words. >> Intended. I don't know what the right word is, but it's the word exclusively used for bicycles that's got me concerned. I Or just Can you just say it's intended for the use of bicycles? You have to
state a diameter as well, so you could say, you know, if if if the portion of roadway is 5 ft or less, then that is intended for the use of bicycles. Or Or say it's designed to accommodate bicycles. >> Or something to that effect. Can I ask
this question? What is the necessity to have a definition of a bike lane in the comp plan? Because we have policies that um talk about bike lanes. So, that's why we need to define >> over those? I think one possible
answer [clears throat] to this is a portion of the roadway designed to accommodate the use of bicyclists and other one to two-wheel vehicles such as scooters, e-bikes, etc. That would be good. Uh typically marked with striping, pavement symbols, and signage. I think that works.
Yeah, to to echo what Nick said, I mean it's a legacy problem, right? This is [clears throat] a legacy problem. The future is a multi-use path. That's the preference. >> just briefly go over what policies this definition affects? You can even state that in the
definition that it's a legacy. And where I'm going with that is are we promoting more bike lanes? Um if you look at policy moves 1.6.10, connected bicycle and pedestrian system. Pasco County shall establish a safe, connected, and efficient system of bike
lanes. Page 26. Page 26 of 50, sorry. 1.6.10. So, the policy says Pasco County shall establish a safe, connected, and efficient system of bike lanes, sidewalks, multi-use path, and multi-use purpose lanes. So, if we are phasing out
bike lanes and going towards the multi-use path, should we still be saying this in the new comp plan? I I don't think so. Um mainly because we don't know what the next 25 years will be like. You might You
might see innovations in bike lanes for local roads even. Um you have urbanized environments that have bike lanes on local roads. They have sharrows on local roads. So, depending on what might take place in over the next 25 years,
I don't think you'll see a bike lane, let's say, on an arterial facility, on a collector facility when when we've got code and we've got uh plans that call for a multi-use uh lane multi-purpose lanes and multi-use paths.
Um but I don't think the bike lane is Kind of go completely Well, I think the other problem is that this is saying you're going to establish a system and some of that system might be what's already on the ground. Right. So, what's already on the ground might
be a bike lane. Makes sense. I think where your concern might be better addressed in the typical sections that we adopt for future roadways. I mean that's where you probably don't want to see
a bike lane. Right. For the new roadways we're building. And that's effectively what Nick was saying, that's not the preferred section. Right. So, how do we how do we call that out in the section?
I'm not sure if this I'm not sure if this is anywhere in this element where we adopt the typical sections. I don't think we do. No. Okay. That's a different Nick, are you Are we going to be
relooking at our typical roadway sections at any point? Yes. That That process is underway. And so, will that come back to this group at some point? I So, procedurally, I don't recall if
the 2019 board resolution was presented to the planning commission first, but whatever the process should be, if planning commission wants an opportunity to provide input, we'd be happy to share that. Are road sections an LDC thing or is it a comp plan thing?
So, in Pasco County, the the typical sections are established by board resolution that was adopted in 2019 and covers our typical countywide arterial collector roads. And then we also have a number of unique
situations, master roadway plans within Connected City and Villages of Pasadena Hills, as well as the um uh some MPUD rezoning applications proposed typical sections that conflict with those 2019 uh
standards, if you will. Uh what what what we're trying to do as part of this update is standardize the We We talked about this last week. Standardize the right-of-way footprint and corresponding number of lanes in our arterial and collector roadway network, and then use the standardized content in
the comp plan to present typical sections for those simplified all set of options. The two lane is either going to be a 60 or a 70 or an 80-ft footprint, and then we'll show you what the 60, 70, 80-ft
footprints will contain within that land area. It's part of a typical section presented to the board. So, is a board resolution the place for typical road sections? That's That's what I said. It should be in either LDC or comp plan. It sounds like it should be in LDC. Where do other counties
typically house their typical sec- roadway sections? So, it it varies. Some Yeah. I mean, candidly, Pasco is becoming a very large county that has a lot of small county practices still in
place. Large counties tend to delegate responsibility for establishing and updating the the design True. That's what the statement said >> [laughter] >> We we we Yeah, large counties tend to to delegate that to to a staff member, like
a county administrator county engineer position that says, "You decide what can legally be and safely be constructed within our county rights-of-way." In Pasco, that um authority tends to reside with the commission. And so, we are protecting that
practice in the way that we're proposing to update that content. Does anybody else put it in the LDCs or the comp plan? I I think what we're intending to do with respect to the LDC is we have reference to a and I'm going to get the phrase wrong. Um
a a development manual. Is that the right phrase? Okay. So, we would incorporate the the board adopted typical sections into that development manual. There There are already references in our land development code to the 2019 approval. Kind of sort of, but it can be amended
via um updated board resolution as opposed to a full ordinance change to the code itself. A little more flexibility, but again, requiring commission approval, not staff uh not not a staff signature, if you will. So, that that's the process that we follow
in Pasco. So, actually, Terry, why don't you bring their attention to 1.2.3? This talks about the whole process that Nick somewhat identified. And I don't think anyone has thoughts on that one. Page 16.
Page 16 of 50. But first, let me tell you what the transportation future transportation system includes. So, if you go to policy 1.2.1, page 14,
or I'm sorry, 1.2, objective 1.2. So, the future transportation system includes the corridor preservation table, okay, the ultimate number of lanes map, the ultimate right-of-way width map,
and the roadway the roadway vision map, and the active transportation map. So, we grouped all these maps along with the table and their one terminology future [music] transportation system instead of repeating them over and over. Okay? So, now that we have that in
context, we can go to page 16. 16. Page 16, policy moves 1.2.3. So, in this particular policy, we're sort of moving in the in the direction that was suggested by the county engineer. Pasco County shall administratively
update the future transportation system, all those maps in the table, when appropriate through procedure procedures established and administered by authorized personnel within the development services branch in coordination with other departments as necessary. Administrative updates shall
be made only under the following conditions. A, a change in the number of lanes on a roadway. B, construction of a new roadway shown on the corridor preservation table moves three. Yep. Uh C, extension of an existing roadway
which changes the function of that roadway. D, adoption of special access limitations on a roadway which significantly impacts the function of the roadway, or E, revision of an urban rural status of a road of a roadway. Any proposed change in the functional classification of a roadway not caused
by a condition listed above shall be considered an amendment, not an administrative update, and shall be adopted only by action of the Board of County Commissioners pursuant to procedures established by the county. County shall permit the appeal of such any such administrative decision regarding the update to the future
transportation system to the Board of County Commissioners. So, what's the difference in procedure between an administrative update and an amendment? It's um basically marking the data, updating the data in the on the on the
maps and in the system. So, but both are resolution of the County Commission. Correct? No. No. No, they're saying administrative updates are basically done by staff. Okay. But an amendment is That's the comp plan amendment process.
Yeah, okay. I'm just using the example of changing the typical roadway section. I don't think the roadway section changes have anything to do with this. Okay. This is These are talking about changing
the maps in the comp plan. Got you. The typical The typical roadway sections were never in the comp plan to begin with. With the exception of the typicals in Connected City, for example, or VOPAH. Yes. But those had policies
that enabled flexibility built into them. That's why I thought we segued to this section, cuz we were That's what we were talking about before. I'm not sure why we segued to this section. >> [laughter] >> Um because That's where I was confused. The section does not address the typical
sections. Um but it does address I think the way I think the segue was the the process as the county is evolving. Uh the amount of information updating that needs to happen. Okay.
You could bog down a bunch of public hearings over small stuff, yeah. Small stuff, yeah. Okay. So, I think we were before we were going through the list of the the new policies. Yeah, the new policies, right? Okay. So, let's go to objective 1.7,
and that is on page 27. So, that's What's an example of its safety initiative? Yes. So, this whole objective is just about safety and complete streets and
ensuring that we have policies that support safe streets for all, safe routes to school. And you had a question about that earlier. Um yes, sorry. I did. Um what is that up? Um there were two policies that were um
being deleted, 1.53 and 1.58, that had to deal with um pedestrian bicycle systems, and there was language in there that didn't get translated to um any of the new um policies. And that language was basically special emphasis given to
connecting attractors of children, such as parks and schools, with residential areas. I was just wondering if we can maybe add that language back into somewhere in here, and I think when we kind of spoke, I think you might have had um a section that you were looking at to add that to.
Great. So, the intent of of those policies that were deleted are or is captured in 1.7.3. However, we can definitely um bring that language back and add it to
1.6.10, connected bicycle and pedestrian system. Yeah, and I actually think 1.6.10 is kind of what 1.5 and 1.8 turned into. Right. Um so, if we can maybe just add that language somehow back in there,
emphasizing um parks and schools. >> connections. Yes. Okay. Will do. Thank you. You're welcome. >> But with regards to the safe routes to schools, I didn't have any problems with those changes. Thank you, Liam. Planning commission members, are we okay
with the language that's under 1.7, objective 1.7? Railroad crossing safety is also under that objective. So and and implement. Derek.
To go go go to go back to my question. So, what's an example of a safety initiative? Would it be, you know, enhancing crossing gates at a railroad crossing or Yes, definitely. It would be something like that, for sure.
Um But So, just an another example would be the one that we talked about earlier in the meeting. The pleasure improvements that were put down on Kitten Trail, for example, uh as part of a safe route to school.
That's on Coburn Way there. An initiative like making sure the sidewalk was on the right side of the road for where most of the pedestrian traffic is. That kind of type of thing. Maybe good buffers. So, the there's some language in
1.7 that says Welcome. implement future strategies for all new roadway construction and roadway improvements. That's something that we want to consider for all projects. This is generally or any It does say where feasible. Yeah, it goes back to where
feasible. So, it's like Yes. Yeah, I I I think that goes to the to the discussion of the typicals. Because a lot of those typicals, they're including the various infrastructure necessary for the type of facility that we're planning.
Um but if you if you just look at some of the typicals in Connected City, for example, or in really VOP H would be a better example. Um there you'll see the attempt through the typicals to illustrate the complete [music] street framework. Yeah. So, yeah,
in a sense, yes, we are looking at complete streets in pretty much every scenario. In an industrial scenario, complete street's going to look a little different than in a commercial scenario or in a residential. Much like the word ensure all starts with an important
Yeah. But it it it it's fine. Yeah. Uh let's look at 5.1.9. That's 46, [music] page 46. Regional rapid transit. [music] So, we added to the we added this policy
to ensure that we're coordinating with um all the appropriate agencies, FDOT, MPO, local government, to support potential regional rapid transit system, including but not limited to the express bus, bus rapid transit, and passenger rail.
So, as as you may be aware, the US 19 Advantage Study is undergoing right now, and we have been in coordination with Pinellas County and the MPO to um pretty much ensure that all the stops for the rapid transit or for the rapid um
for the express bus is coordinated with with the land use and with the proposed densities and intensities that we're proposing as part of the 2050 mixed-use flu nodes um addition. What do we think about that policy?
Great. Mr. Moody, you've been quiet. I She considered She considered that to be silence is good. >> Yeah. True. Don't poke the bear. I [laughter] Now now you're getting him to talk.
I laugh every time we talk about passenger rail. You never know. It will will happen. Could happen. What happened, and this probably happened before you were born or when you were a young child, we used to have rail. Okay?
And in the 1990s, we decided it was smart to tear up all those rails and turn them into bike trails. And then when we decided we needed rail transit, we said, "Oh my god, we can't afford any right-of-way for rails." We had it. We turned them into bike trails.
I hope that we'll think about those decisions as we go forward. We live and learn, so. Okay. Uh let's see. I think I Oh, 1.6.1. I believe I touched on most of the new
policies, but let's go to 1.6.1. And that is 25, page 25. Pasco County shall consider developing and implementing an active trans transportation plan to increase the safety, efficiency, and comfortability of Pasco County's active transportation
network. So, we are currently working with the MPO to have this plan in um action or in we're developing the plan to have it in action at some point in the near future. So, this policy is pretty much just
reinforcing that endeavor or initiative. >> What's the active transportation The The active transportation plan is the essentially the mobility framework for non-motorized uh movement within the county. So,
it's basically the paths and trails plan uh for the county. Uh generally, you can see the the the network fill in through the use of our typicals and the understanding that a lot of the collectors and arterials are going to have multi-purpose paths, etc.
Um but then there's trail networks and path networks that are off right-of-way. Um and so uh they Well, I shouldn't say off right-of-way because they are their own right-of-way. They are outside of the roadway system. Um and so um
the active transportation or the act Yeah, the active transportation plan is identifying those. And then what types of uh policies um are tactically specific in particular areas for the different facilities.
Um but the comprehensive plan is just identifying here, and then another plan coming in coming in in in focus in the future will help facilitate the development and the implementation and development of the network that we're seeing on the screen.
There There have been studies I don't I don't I don't want you to take this question [music] wrong. Are there studies that look at how many people actually
use the trail networks for the purpose of transportation rather than just recreation? In other words, how many people actually come use [clears throat] those trails to
commute to work or to to go get their necessities of life, their groceries, and their clothing, and their I don't have a problem with providing multi-use paths, and they provide a
great recreational opportunity. I question whether there's a substantive amount of the population that actually uses those facilities as a
means of transportation. There are studies. Um I I would say that the genesis of the active transportation plan from a couple of years ago was a discussion between planning and the Parks and Recreation Natural Resources Department
uh in identifying the commute a commuter network of bicycling. Um this is this is before the explosion of e-bikes and whatever. But of bicycling on the one hand for a commuter purposes and then bicycling on
the other hand for recreational and and Lycra movement Lycra-clad movements. Um so um both networks could coexist with one another and plug into one another. How do How does that happen? And
uh the discussion rolled and rolled and rolled and turned into the active transportation um plan that's being called out here in the in the comprehensive plan. >> Yeah, what I thought it was funny cuz you missed the pun that you made about the quote explosion of e-bikes.
Through water. Yeah, no I did think about it as I said it. >> [laughter] >> I have zero problem with providing the recrea- recreational opportunities of the trail networks and the multi-use paths
like what I'm asking myself I'm questioning there seems to have been over the last decade this philosophy that I'll build all these things and there's going to be all these people that are going to commute
like putting bike lanes in the roadway. There's going to be all these people that commute to work on the bicycle and that's going to relieve traffic congestion. And I just personally find that that's a fallacy and I ask myself
you know in July, August, and September when it's 90° and then 3:00 in the afternoon I'm going to have the thunderstorm that rains 4 in per hour. I mean
how many people are going to use that as a means of transportation? I I question whether we put too much focus on bicycles as a as a mean and e-bikes as a means of
transportation [music] for the masses. There may be a few people here and there. I mean there's going to be a lot more in urban areas, you know, you'll see more of them downtown in Richey than you will on St. Joe Road. You're correct. I and I agree and probably in those
urban environments that is appropriate, but in general our county is more of a suburban county. We don't have many urban town centers. And so I question [music] you know, do we put too much emphasis on
them? And I'm not saying don't make bike trails multi-use paths. I think those are great recreational opportunities. I just think sometimes we kid ourselves that they're actually transportation facilities. It seems to me in some ways that the
explosion of the electric bikes and transportation >> [clears throat] >> um I mean they really aren't they aren't for exercise Mhm. or recreation. [clears throat] No. They're to get from one place to another. And I think
you know, [clears throat] to a certain extent the fact that there is an explosion of of these types of vehicles can tends to me to say that people are going to start using them for transportation. And that's because of the
um because they're cheaper to operate. You know. >> Sure. Uh Can I add to Mr. Chairman that uh in the early planning days of active transportation back in the early 2000s um there was uh considerable discussion
at that time about the impact of high gas prices. Um this was obviously before the 2008 recession. Um and we saw gas prices reach you know, I think three, four dollars in some parts of the country at that time
and there was a lot of that generated a lot of discussion about active transportation planning and it became the um the main line discussion if you will in in planning conferences and whatnot back in the 2008s, 2010 years.
Um you know, we could be facing a very similar challenge of permanently increased gas prices uh and I do think that e-bikes are probably going to be a viable alternative to
I would say commutes within 5 mi of of uh of your starting point. Like you're not going to get in your car to do that if gas is like $8 a gallon. Assuming world events can calm themselves down. We're going to drill, baby, drill.
We're already heard drill, so we're going to keep drilling. Yeah. And the electricity to charge those e-bikes comes from those same wells that produce that gasoline. Right. Or coal.
Let's see if solar panels. Or solar. Huh? Let's see if solar panels. Yeah, they're going to start using nuclear. How long does it take to charge that e-bike with a You charge your car with one of those? I can charge my car overnight with solar panels. How long does it take? What? How long
does it take? >> [laughter] >> Uh 4 hours. With one panel for your phone? Oh, I have an my entire roof is full of panels. I That's what I'm getting at. Okay. I mean It takes a lot. It's not like you can I have enough panels that I
was almost charged additional surcharge to be a power plant. >> [laughter] >> You sell it back to them? >> [laughter] >> Is this Is this a new map or is Yes, this is a new map. My question one is does having the kitten trail on this map
allow us to meet the the pedestrian needs? If it's not Vision Road. That's the concern about having a Vision Road map. Will that cover any of the joint pedestrian needs on kitten trail with this new map on the
new active transportation plan? Saving that for later discussion. Not certain about what we're going to do. Um the other comment I just have is this notice that all the green areas are county park facilities. Is all that all that east on the east side of
county park facility technically or Conservation. Is that a county park? Is that all of the state Is it a state park? Maybe it's just I don't know if it's the state. Maybe change that label to have something that's county parks. Yeah. All the land or whatever. Yeah.
Wait, where's the name SunTrail coming from? I don't recall that name. Is that a trail system? I think that's the state grant money. That's what? I think that's the funding source. Well, I've never heard it. Where is it? The SunTrail. State State
Sun SunTrail. State funding source, SunTrail. So, Mr. Chair, if I could Regarding the SunTrail, it's an acronym. It's It stands for shared use non-motorized trail. It's a program created by the state legislature to divert some portion a small portion 25
million per year of uh state doc stamp revenue to the funding of a statewide trail network of paved facilities. Uh it really to incentivize counties and and cities to construct the their portion of those facilities in order to implement the
statewide network. >> share with uh funding from the state to build these with the county or Again, it's 25 million per year. Each district is allocated portions of that total amount and and local governments are able to submit grant applications for construction funding from that uh
with the expectation that the local governments would then be obligated to maintain the facilities that have been constructed with that revenue. And you said they're non-motorized? Yeah, the the N in SunTrail stands for non-motorized. So, it's a shared use non-motorized trail network.
One of them's on Starkey and they're motorized. Are they scooters or e-bikes? They're e-bikes. Electric motorized. Okay. Okay. If I may direct your attention to one last new policy and that's on page 18.
Patty. It's policy moves 1.2.5. Ultimate lanes and ultimate right-of-way standards. So, we have added this new table to pretty much establish the ultimate lanes
and right-of-way widths by contacts and jurisdiction. And pretty much the intent of this table is to set clear build-out to standards for corridor preservation and design. So, this will affect what the typical road section will look like.
Well, we've discussed that that's a separate process. What page is this on? 17. 18. I'm sorry. I mean 18. 1.2.5 Hi. Mr. Chair, for two reasons. First, because they're part of our transportation network and we rely on
them to move the majority of people. They carry the heaviest volume of traffic. But, second, and really the practical reason is if there is a state facility that has not been built to its ultimate condition, this comp plan policy gives us the ability to obligate development along
that corridor to convey right of way so that those those facilities can um so that we can preserve the footprint needed for those widenings like along a US 301 or US 41 to the north. We see development north of 52 where we intend
to make that an ultimate four or six-lane facility. If we didn't have this policy in the comp plan, the state would be we would not be able to um ask for conveyance of right of way and the state would incur a much higher cost in constructing those facilities. Thank you, Nick.
Basically, state code does not control land use. We control land use. Okay. Right. I have a question about [clears throat] the note at the bottom of the table. It says any future edits to table moves {dash} three shall [music] conform to the standards in table moves {dash} two.
Aren't you in effect tying the hands of a future commission with this document? I'm thinking about it. Moves {dash} three Mr. Chair, if I could address that for you. >> any edits the edits all have to be made
by the BCC, right? Yeah, so the intention of this statement in the in the note to the table is this is where we were talking about standardizing the potential options for right of way width. So, if you want to be a two-lane
road as a collector in the urban area, then this table says you either need to have a 60 or a 70 or an 80-ft right of way. Those are the choices available to you if we want to create a new two-lane collector road in an urban or suburban area.
If an elected body like the Board of County Commissioners wants to say, "Actually, I'd rather have a two-lane road in 120 ft of right of way." As part of the amendment, they would delete the footnote and say, "That rule we don't like it. We're we're just going to strike that and amend the table to
put in 120-ft right of way." But, what we're trying to do is say, "Please, as you go forward in the future, constrain yourself to these options so that we can create meaningful standards and implement a system that can be relatively stable over time."
To answer your question, no, it doesn't bind the future board because the future board can amend that note. Where is table three? Moves three is that table? >> telling me what you shall do this. Beyond that, the future board The future board can just amend this
that shall statement if they want to. All the edits. Then what then what's the point? So, in I think Nick is just trying to say that there's that the check it's it's saying It it signifies an intent to
standardize. So, where where does table moves three live? To Elizabeth's point, it's a it's a separate table. So, that Three is is the table of all of the individual road widths. Okay. That's the one that we presented last. Okay. Thursday. >> Oh, okay.
100 20 20-some pages. Got you. Yes, we do not want to put that in this. Any other comments from anyone? Just a question for Nick. The the model run that was done
was it a 2050 model run? Yes. Okay. Short answer. That answers my question. I'd move it. Mr. Chair, I've done enough moving with moves. So, if you feel like
you have to Move on. Move on. I think we had a motion, did we? Yeah, I was going to make a motion to recess for lunch and Yeah, we're going to adjourn following meeting. We're going to adjourn cuz we'll have to open up a new meeting. We'll also open a new meeting for the cuz we're doing workshop after the
meeting too, yes? No, it's just that Okay, I had it both on my calendar, so that's good. >> It was just in case we did not finish the morning session. >> Oh, got you. Well then, I move adjournment of this workshop. Is that good? I have a second. All in favor? I. I.
Thank you. Bring your lunch. I did. Yeah, he's got it right there by his Laptop. That's emergency food. That's emergency food, yeah. That's that's rations. Yes. It's like your MREs. Yes. That's enough planning. Part: 2
We focus. interest. >> Okay. So consider amount of interest is 10 which we expected >> yet or they still >> I knew Barbara was going to have her hands full on there but I know she knows what she's doing.
>> God bless you. >> Probably the same people that signed up two and a half years ago. Get them all. >> You have a good lunch. >> Oh, there you go. >> That is good lunch. >> Where'd you go? >> Five Guys. >> Oh, >> it's not good for you, but it's delicious.
>> Yeah, definitely not good for you. >> It is yours. >> Exactly. >> But it's delicious. >> Still on vacation. I was going to say I >> I got to hang out with Liam two days in a row. >> Yes, we got to see each other yesterday. >> Yeah. >> Although we got split into different
groups. >> That's true. >> Yeah, that's right. Sunshine. >> Let's get this out of the way. trail. >> I got screwed out of the deal that I was in contract for 15
So, I got a little more attorney involved earlier. >> Nobody lives out there close enough to object. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's my my clients. >> Yeah. Well,
>> they own the land immediately to the east. They own the land between the land. Sorry. >> Yeah, there was part 40 acre parcel south. There's two and those two were
>> on the east side of town. >> On the east side, >> well, you're lucky county would have won it right away out of your right away for Houston. have a place to go at the time. Anyway, I knew it would
have been valuable at some point. >> Yeah. You have to sign in. >> Yeah. Want to come out cheat? No problem. >> Been there, done that.
>> The the owner. Oh, of the construction. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I got you. >> Yeah, that'd be that'd be that'd be great. Place a normal range. Want to go empty >> empty some 556
223 or some 769 >> built in burn >> I may I may if you think the owner would be okay with the I may take you up on We used to rent a piece of land not too far off
colony. So, you know, you go up colony and then makes a hard left and then a hard right. >> Yep. >> So, you make a right on Hudson right there and go down. There's a substation on right across from that. There was some property there. Actually, it was
the the Greek saw. We approved um single family property. So, it had like it was 34 37 acres. Me and bunch of other folks leased it and had four wheel trails out there, few
bonfires, built a burn. >> Oh yeah, that's where I used to shoot. >> I think the Griffin Second shoot. >> Oh god. >> Everything must be on the consent agenda. I'm
>> glad people come out. >> They should. >> They should. >> I know it's not the most convenient platform in the middle of the day. >> Democracy. Democracy only works. >> Darkness. Democracy.
Actually, we need a better term for this. Democracy is also >> also true. >> That's why the whole idea of republic is so important. >> Yes.
Make sure that the majority >> otherwise 51% of us would say correct 50% 50%. >> The Romans figured that out. Created the Senate. All right. Oh my
Oh my goodness. live in the city. >> The city. >> Yeah. >> So, >> yeah, we moved into a new build in downtown. So, no HOA, but a new house, which >> my knees hurt for 6 months going from a
bungalow to a slab floor. I couldn't figure out that hard. >> Call the meeting to order, please. If we'd stand for a moment of silence and pledge of allegiance. To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it
stands. One nation under God, indivisible, liberty and justice for all. Okay, clerk could read the roll, please. >> Gerardi >> here. >> Pool >> here. >> Mr. John Moody >> here. >> Matthew Muntz >> here.
>> Here >> proof of publication, please. The items are advertised in the Tampa Bay Times on April 1st 26 by mailing and site. >> Right. Thank you. >> I'd like to welcome everyone today.
We're the planning commission. We're appointed by the board of county commissioners and we meet meet twice monthly. serve as a local planning agency and we hold public hearings and transmit to the board of county commissioners our recommendations on comprehensive plan amendments, land
development code amendments, reszonings and conditional use requests. Planning commission is the final decision-making body for special exceptions certain appeals, variance requests, and certain alternative standard requests. However,
you may appeal all the final decisions to the board of county commissioners. If one is in opposition to any development, code amendment, reszoning, additional use, or any item where this board transmits the recommendation to the
county commission, it's important for you to attend the appropriate board of county commission meeting. For those of you who are not familiar uh with the content of the meeting, uh we have three sections. We have
continuences, we have consent items, and we have regular items. We'll go through each of those uh one at a time. It's been our custom to grant continuous requested by the applicant or or the staff unless there's extenduating
circumstances. And then we have consent items. We'll go through those one at a time. There's something on consent that you'd like to have discussed today, raise your hand when I read read it off. We'll be happy to pull it from uh consent and put it on
with the regular items. Otherwise, the items left on consent will be voted on at one time and approved and the regular items then will be heard and discussed fully. Um the applicants will
have five minutes to make a presentation and anybody in the audience who has questions about those applications will have three m three minutes uh to state their concerns and then the applicant will have a opportunity to come up and
respond to those concerns and so we'll fully discuss that. We'll try to answer all your questions. And um we also want to we have time reserved for public comment on any item that's not on today's agenda. Is someone here
to speak on something that's not on today's agenda? >> Yeah, I don't see anyone. >> We have one individual pre-registered for general public comment. >> Okay. >> One, Miss Jasmine. >> Okay. Uh just one second. We'll get to
her then. >> Hi, good afternoon. >> Yeah, just wait one second. Can I finish and then I'll let you go. Um, one admonition is if you have a phone, please be sure it's in the silent position so we don't interrupt anybody
who is speaking and so everybody can hear. And uh so if you anybody who plans to give testimony today, if you please stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. Anybody who plans to get up and speak.
>> You swear upon. >> Okay. If you give us your name and address. >> Jasmine Forin. I live in Clear Water, 100 Hampton Road, unit 203. Uh I have 10 acres in Hudson, 14191,
uh Family Trail. I um I don't know what the agenda is, but I am trying to find out if in your plan you have designated any green spaces to be left after you finish all your um development,
especially on the roads that I take every day, Little Road and Hudson Avenue between Hicks and Hayes. It seems to me that every day I come uh there is another uh track of woods all uh plowed
under and being developed. Is there such a thing as percentage of green spaces um designated to offset all this development? And if there is, how much? And where do I find that information? I
couldn't I asked everybody um in this building, but they sent me down here. So, where do I find this information? Well, you can find it on our county website and we have designation designated parkland that will be is
restricted from development and that is I think it's around 21,000 acres and >> you're happy to take a look at that and >> I didn't I'm not I'm not um you know on a on a online a lot but I will look at
that and u can you tell me now where these u designated areas are or should I just come back later. >> There's a big swath of property from State Road 54 all the way to State Road 52. And I think it comprises three different
development non-development areas. Beexley, Saranova, and Starky. >> So, the Pasco County Comprehensive Plan has a conservation element. The Pasco County Comprehensive Plan has a conservation element which maps all of
these areas. I I know about the existing areas, but uh considering all this new development that just started recently, I I had this land for 25 years and um it used to be um cow pastures on each side of the
road, but now it's totally um it's going it's it's being developed. Is there um plan to to offset this big development with something green left on Hudson Avenue maybe?
>> So you're talking about when when new projects develop what are they >> all this new development >> what are they required to set aside in their project? Yes, within uh within my my my road I I take every day from clear water to come to my
>> So that's determined at the time of site plan based on we have neighborhood parks requirements that require them to set aside green space >> that exists. >> We also have a tree ordinance that requires them to set aside green space. So that's determined at the time of site
plan approval for that project. >> And the tree ordinances of we've updated that fairly recently. >> I know. I'm so happy. I'm so >> Some of some of the projects you're probably thinking of are was prior to that. So some of these projects where you seen clear cutting on Little Road,
for example, that was prior to some of these protections that we've worked to put in place. So >> I I understand about three tree ordinance. I was there. I'm so thankful for it. But um if this is all going to be a residential area, where are these
people or kids going to recreate? Do they have to go all the way down to Starky or is there something within this area of of Hudson Avenue? >> There's parks requirements within each development. So each development has a certain amount of space they have to allocate towards park space and green
space depend depending on the size of the development or >> like 40 acres next to me. They just uh going to build 116 homes. I didn't see any plans of any kind of recreational area. Uh they have some ponds for, you
know, for the water to to collect. >> They'll be required to set aside space or otherwise mitigate for it. >> So where do I go to find out if there is anything going to happen? >> You have to look at their site plan. You'd have to. So >> thank you. >> Mr. Dutter, who's sitting right there,
>> his team reviews every single site plan that comes into the county. and they have to review it for compliance with our neighborhood parks ordinance. >> Okay. >> So, they would be able to identify on every site plan how they're complying with the neighborhood parks ordinance. >> Thank you.
>> I hope there's something left, you know, by the time it's all developed. Thank you so much. >> Okay. Is there anybody else? Okay. All right, we can start. Good afternoon, planning commission
members. I'm Kurt Cyverson of Planning, Development, and Economic Growth. The first item is PC1. That's PTE 267892, the zoning amendment, a substantial modification in the name of Landanda Lakes 5241 by San Rich commercial LLC
and SR52 Williams LLC. This is a request from an MPD master planned unit development to an MPD masterplanned unit development district to allow for an option to develop 122 platted town homes and associated infrastructure on approximately 76.72 acres located in
west central Pasco County on the south side of state road 52. This is coming with the recommendation of approval to the board of county commissioners of the proposed essential modification request to the MPD with conditions. Okay. Is the applicant present? Anyone
here to object? >> Go ahead, >> Mr. Chair. The second item on consent, APC3. We have received a letter of opposition and we have an individual register registered to speak on the item. We ask that APC3 is moved to the regular
agenda. Okay. All right. And what about four? Item APC4. You'll be sitting as a local planning agency for this has a companion zoning item which is APC 5, the Mitchell
41 NPU. APC for is PTE 2600414 CPA 23 parenthesis05. This is the Mitchell US41 a comprehensive plan amendment to the future land use map 2-15 and sheet five changing from res
one residential one dwan unit per gross acre res 3 residential three dwan units per gross acre IIL industrial light con conservation lands and office to PD plan development on approximately 1,219 acres
of rail property located on the west side of US highway 41 and a text amendment Amendment to sub area policy flu 7.1.5 Mitchell US41 and a map amendment to the future land use map 2-9 amending sub
area map 2-9 parenthesis 15. This is an ordinance by the pasu county board of county commissioners amending the pasu county land development code section 1104 flood damage prevention appendix A definitions and other sections as necessary for internal consistency
providing for applicability repealer and providing for severability inclusion to the land development code and an effective date. This is coming with a recommendation that the local planning agency find the proposed amendment consistent with the comprehensive plan and recommend approval of denial to the board of county commissioners.
>> You said approval of denial. >> I'm sorry. Recommend approval to the board of county commissioners. Excuse me. >> Just saying we're paying attention. >> Yeah, that was a test.
>> All right. the applicant present. Anyone here to object? I see no objections. We have a companion item AP. Yeah. I APC5 is the companion item. PD 267741,
a zoning amendment in the name of Mitchell 41 MPUD by James and Dorothy Mitchell Investments Ltd for a request for an AC agricultural district to an MPD master plan unit development to allow for the development of 2,100
residential dwelling units, town homes, multif family apartments, and single family detached products, 880,000 ft of light industrial, 99,000 ft of office and associated infrastructure in northwest Pasco County on the west side
of US Highway 41 and north of Goodman Drive containing approximately 1,219 acres. This is coming with the recommendation of approval to the board of county commissioners of the proposed zoning amendment request with conditions. >> All right.
Is that present? Anyone here to object? I see no one. Make a motion to approve the consent agenda consisting of PC1, APC 4 and APC 5. >> Second. >> Second. >> We have a motion and a second. Further
discussion of the motion. >> All in favor signify by saying I. >> I. Like sign. >> All right. Motion carries. >> Okay. So, let's see. ABC3. >> Yes, sir.
Item PDE 26 CU7 is a conditional use request in the name of Tahesian to be presented by staff. >> Mr. share before we get started. >> Yeah. >> I'll be abstaining from voting on this matter. The engineer on the project. >> Okay.
>> Um before you start also and maybe you're going to say this so I might be jumping a little ahead here. I believe that we received exparte communications and it was sent to the clerk's office already. >> Joseph Ryold planning development economic growth. We did get two late
expartes that have been submitted to the clerk already. Okay. >> Good afternoon. >> You too. >> This is PTE 26-CO7. It is a Tahesian conditional use.
Applicant is Shriramm Investment Incorporated. Zoning of the property is C2 general commercial district. The future land use designation is ROR retail office and residential. So, the purpose of this conditional use is for multifamily dwellings in the C2
general commercial district in accordance with LDC section 526.3.0.3. The location is on the west side of US Highway 19 in Holiday at the intersection of US Highway 19 and Tahesian Garden Circle.
Here's the site location map. property is located in the west market area and in the ser urban service area. Here's Met for context. You have Darlington Road to the north, US Highway
19 along the east side of the property and then Milestretch Drive down to the south. Zoomed in aerial the property, you can see Tahesian Gardens condominiums there to the west. You have a quick service
restaurant up to the north and a charity retail store down to the south. The future land use map there is as said is an RO and then you have residential 24 to the west.
And here we have the zoning. Um the areas C2 to the north, east, and south. You have MF2 multif family highdensity district to the west. And there's a little pocket of
MF3 there just to the north, but that's actually the access drive. Subject site consists of a 148 room defunct motel on almost or just over three acres. Uh the motel rooms will be converted into apartments of various
sizes. Pursuant to LDC section 526.3.0, multifamily dwellings in the C2 general commercial district um are possible if a project complies with one or more of the following. One, if it's defined as
affordable um by Florida statutes. two, if it's vertically integrated mixed use, and three, if it's located within the West Market area. So, this project actually complies with number three being located in the West Market area.
So, the number of units will not exceed the maximum density that's allowed by the RO flu. and in no case shall that number exceed 96 units. There is a proposed comprehensive plan
amendment CPA 2601 which is for RO designated properties in the west market area. Um if adopted the maximum density allowed will go up to 32 dwelling units per developable acre. Uh as of right now the maximum density is 24 dwelling units
per developable acre. subject site is on a active bus route. It's conveniently located between two stops. There's one 500 ft to the north and another 600 ft to the south. And both of those are on the same side of 19 on the west side as of the project.
US Highway 19 was identified as a conceptual trail corridor from alternate 19 north up to Sunray Drive. Um but there are currently no plans to design or construct that trail. Uh there is though an existing five-foot sidewalk that goes along the the east side of the
property as well as the east side of US Highway 19. The buildings in the in the site were built back in 1969. U so there is some constraints to the the
property the way it's laid out. As as such, there will be alternative standards needed uh for the requirements of LDC section 907 parking and LDC section 905 905.1 neighborhood parks and those will uh be handled at the time of
site planning. This project does align with West Market area's vision and mission as well as the harbor's redevelopment and infill infill plan. Um both of those look for redevelopment and increased housing choices uh in this area of the county.
Um we'll also aesthetically improve this corridor which is uh the gateway to West Pasco. Here's just an overview of the of the site plan. Uh there's not going to be any demolition or or new buildings there. It's renovation and refurbishing.
um adaptive reuse of what is there. Uh the office building which is right to the north that will be turned into a clubhouse and will have various amenities like a fitness center. Staff recommendation recommend approval to the board of county commissioners of
the conditional use request with conditions as set forth under the recommended conditions section. I'm here for any questions. All right. Any questions? >> Maybe a better question for the applicant, but I um would be curious to
see what the um proposed look to what an apartment would look like and how the rooms are going to be converted. >> All right. Present. >> Am I allowed to click today or am I I can click
>> Barbara Will height 6327 Grand Boulevard for the applicant who is the contract purchaser of this property. I'm really glad this was pulled. Really want to tell you about this project. Um Mr. Poll. Yes, we have the the layout of the different units.
We have renderings. We have all sorts of goodies in here. So, let me go through and introduce you. This is going to be Harbor Point at Holiday, the Harbor Point apartment homes. I was born in 1969. I'm from the west side of Pasco County. So, my whole life this has been here. Um, when I got the
opportunity to represent this client, I actually kind of begged him like, I really want to do this because this is something different. Um, it's something very needed and I hope you'll agree after you see this presentation. Site context thinking staff went over this. We're just south of Darlington. You can walk to Aldi. You can walk to
the drugstore. You can get to two different bus stops. You can get down to the to the stockyard if you want to go country dancing. all within walking distance. Property view. This is a little bit dated because now it's got a nice chain fence up on it because uh the county
revoked the certificate of occupancy for the motel. As we talked about, constructed in 1969. It's four buildings, 148 motel units. It has a lobby building with a restaurant and bar that closed long ago. >> There's a capital city >> courtyard with a with a pool. It's uh
has operated as a motel under various owners until the county revoked the certificate occupancy. I'm not sure that I even recall the county doing that before. Been doing this a long time. Um and there was significant building and safety violations and the strain on county services. As you can see, 700
plus 911 calls in a 15-month period. This project will take those take the resources that have been spent chasing after this motel and they can go to other projects. and my client's going to come in and do something great here. Um,
the guest profile before the closing, transient guests, economy stay, local residents. We see a lot of utilization of these older motel for actual housing. What we plan to do is have 96 workforce housing units. Everybody debates like
what does that mean? Um, I'll as you go through this, you kind of get an idea of of how this works. Um, 45 studio units. We furnish those 51 one-bedroom units. We've talked about the lobby and staff has talked about the lobby building. Um
the green space has a really nice pool already and we're going to add to the green space that exists a playground and uh some dedicated space for the tenant park. These just kind of goes through some of the improvements. Um
maintaining a safe community. No transient stays. All tenants are pre-s screened. 12-month lease terms. When you when a motel's run, you cannot background screen them. Can't income qualify them. You can't do any of those things. So, you go from a project where
anybody can be there with sex offender criminal to a project where people are screened, they sign leases. That alone is a big change. credit checks, criminal background check, professionally managed, as you can see, thirdparty management company, on-site
manager and maintenance, and local ownership. My client is is local. Harbor Island Capital is the name of my client's firm. This is something that they have been working on. They develop attainable workforce housing for middle inome earners through adaptive reuse of
absolute commercial properties, whether it be a hotel, an office, a school. What's interesting is when you look at representing affordable um housing developers, which I do, there's AMI, the adjusted medium income,
average median income, excuse me. And there's a lot of programs for people developing 60% AMI, 80% AMI, and then you really there's not tax credits, there's not bond deals, there's not the same programs on a federal level available to help get these things
financed. So, what happens is when you're exceed the 80% AMI or 60% AMI, you're out in the market for market rents, 2,000 a month, whatever it might be. What's unique about this is because we're doing adaptive reuse of an
existing building, you're the cost is lower, so the units can be rented for lower. You can see there the adaptive reuse. The percentage is there because you're reusing. You're not building from ground up a brand new project. You're reusing
um a building that was actually built in 1969. And as I have heard somebody say like a truck. It's all um it's all block construction. So, it's actually got a pretty good construction. And yes, it's been there since 1969.
And then the time period to be able to to get these renovations done and get people moved in. And I know Chuck Lane and I have been in on calls. You're he's now over uh disaster recovery funds funds, but he's asked the client, "How can when I can when can I get people moved in? There's a need for housing. Um, and this brings that to market so
people can get moved in much quicker than a groundup project. This is the the layout. If you could see that slide, maybe you can better than I can, but it just shows where these different units are. Studio, one bedroom, one bedroom, small, how they're
allocated throughout the building. This is the lobby. How we're going to redo the lobby building to have an office, a tenant gathering area, a gym. This is a typical studio. The one bedroom you can see you're
taking. So, if we go back for a second, you'd see that the studio is in the footprint of a hotel unit. So, it's just reoing the hotel unit, adding the kitchenet. So there's a kitchen,
the one bedroom or two hotel units. Take the wall portion of the wall down in between. Make one of the restrooms the kitchen and then the other side where the bedroom and the and the bathroom is. It's currently a bathroom. You just renovate all those renovate those spaces.
This is the typical bedroom small. And these are the renderings of what the it's going to look like. You can see the landscaping is coming alive. It's cleaned up. It's painted. This view is from US19. We're still
working on what we can do with along US19 whether we can do anything. We have probably need some help with FDOT to let us do these trees. We're our parking is right up against the right ofway, the existing parking. But you can see we're adding new trees,
planter boxes where we have areas that we that are have currents have pavement and we want to add some green to those areas. Really nice courtyard and pool. Again, just making that even more green. It's already, as I hear, it's already been
renovated, so the pool area is pretty nice. So with that, adaptive reuse, something new for me. If you have any questions, John can answer them. >> Okay. Any questions for John?
>> I I do have a question. And I attended a Florida APA conference maybe three years ago that presented a project very similar about adapting reusing old motel for this exact kind of use. Um, and I'm recalling back to that I didn't see in
the conditions they when when they presented that at the Florida APA conference actually in Orlando. Um, they actually talked about specifically having conditions on how many occupants could be in a unit. Um, is that something that you thought about or
maybe staff has thought about? >> I think my client might be able to answer that how that works. Okay. >> Um, would be beyond me. >> If you want to come up and speak, we need to stop the microphone >> so we can get it on record.
>> You please just give your name and address. >> Sure. Uh, Chris Glabby. the managing partner of Harbor Island Capital uh 14549 Murabel Vista Circle in Tampa, Florida. >> Happy to hear that, take an interest in
these and these projects vary. So I I can't speak specifically for that project. Um some of these hotel conversions are one for one and they're truly affordable housing uh at the lower end of the AMI. Um these will be
apartments and we follow HUD guidelines right so studio is typically one person and then u onebedrooms are I I don't know how you do it one and a half uh but those are the limitations that that we do on that so we find that we have either single individuals or couples
>> thank you >> y >> any other questions while I'm up here >> um I was going to ask about parking but I don't know who's that's best directed towards >> I think that that's We'll call you back after that. >> Thank you. >> About the package.
>> Uh so, um I guess the LDC requires we're we're slightly over half of what the LDC requires for that number of units. So, I understand that um the applicant that you guys are going to request an alternative standard at time of site
plan review, but um I'm guessing the argument will be made that some of those spots will be offset by proximity to mass transit, but I you know, I still have some reservations about the number
of, you know, 114 parking spaces for 96 units. >> So, As you heard from the developer, first off, the majority of the units are studio apartments, which are limited to one person. So, it's not likely that
an occupant of a studio apartment will have more than one vehicle. The majority of the one-bedroom apartments are anticipated to be occupied by single residents.
All right. And then we also have proximity to transportation services. And there's an affordable component. We didn't stress, we didn't talk too too much about that, but 50% of these units are reserved for people making 80% of
the AMI or less. So it's likely that some of these folks will be regular users of the transit system rather than drivers. We will have somewhere around 100 to 110 parking spaces after things
are complete. Um the applicant has already studied multiple apartment complexes in the area, some market rate, some affordable. And what we've determined from that
study is that the Pasco County Land Development Code as it relates to the number of parking spaces needed for multifamily is actually far in excess of what is actually used
um in these places. Right now our code would require generally about 2.25 spaces per unit. Um, and we're finding that that number is significantly less with the parking study that is that's been done >> and this has been done for this has been
done for more than one project that I'm working on with this developer. >> What's interesting about those parking studies is not just how they were approved. They got, you know, it doesn't just say this project was approved at 1.4 1.1. It's actually going out on a Saturday night and studying the utilization. They're actually
utilization studies. What's your occupancy? What's your utilization of the parking? >> Yes. The study went out and actually counted physical parking spaces on the properties and then they mounted cameras to monitor every parking space on the
property to find out when when were the peak hours of utilization and what was the total amount of parking utilization during the highest demand period for parking. >> So, what kind of ratio are you guys seeing in practice?
So, we're seeing that it's actually closer to one to 1.1. Um, I will tell you that for this particular project, the transportation engineers have recommended 90 parking
spaces as being adequate, but we'll be providing actually over a hundred depending on how we work out some landscaping in the parking lot with the development review department. Okay. >> The other point I would like to make is
that 96 is a max, >> right? >> So if they're not entitled to 96. So for some reason they can't get an alternative standard approved that gives them 96. I mean maybe they just won't get 96.
>> That was my other concern. they're burdened that they, you know, get an alternative standard for 96 units, but if they can't show, maybe they just won't get 96 units. >> Yeah, I felt like the 24 density made more sense on this property than 32. But
I guess if it's you can make a case for it that I understand >> it's high bar to get an alternative standard for parking. It's why they're actually utilization studies. It used to be just tell us how you've been approved and what's been approved before but very
high bar. So, >> right. And these are apartment local apartment complexes that have all been studied. >> Yeah. >> That's all I had. >> Thank you. >> All right. Do they have any public
comment? We have one individual pre-registered one, Miss Margaret O'Brien. >> Okay. >> Good afternoon. My name is Margaret O'Brien. I live at 4336 Tahesian Garden
Circle. Unit H is in Henry in Holiday. This hotel is our neighbor and um I'm on the president I'm the president of our board currently and we have spoken
with the developer and are very excited about the change because that has been closed down since October and prior to that police ambulances
overdoses prostit stitution. We've had it all. And they come in our facility and break into elderly people's condos. We're not all elderly. We're all 55 and above, but there's some that are quite
old that live alone and they're very scared. And so, I think this would be a great addition to this property because I sure don't want it to go back to the way it was. Thank you for your time.
>> Thank you very much. Thanks. >> So, is there anybody else that wants to speak? All right. See no one. Do I hear a motion? >> Motion to approve. >> Second.
>> Have a motion to approve and a second. Is there any further discussion of the motion? Not. All in favor signify by saying I. >> I post like sign. >> Let the record reflect that. I abstained. >> You're still in the hot seat, Barbara.
Item P2 is PTE 267596, a zoning amendment in the name of Denton Avenue MPUD master plan unit development to be presented by staff. Good afternoon, planning commission members. William Vermillion, Planning Development, Economic Growth. This is
PTE267596, the Denton Avenue, MPUD. Um, some of the planning commission members were here for the original iteration of the project came in in uh 2022.
Uh, we're we're four years removed from that and there's been some substantial changes to the project since then. A brief refresher about what the original proposal was. It's originally 1,600 dwelling units which were 40 foot single family detached and multif family
apartments, town homes, and a combination of light industrial flex space. Today's proposal is much less intense and dense as there's no longer a correspondent comprehensive plan amendment. This reszoning is consistent with the current future land use on the
subject site today. Here's a location map in the northwestern portion of the county. This is a resoning request from R2 low density residential to MPD master planned unit development district for the development of 832 single family
detached units 75,000 ft of support commercial and 440,000 square feet of light industrial and associated infrastructure on approximately 331 acres. This is approximately 1.5 miles east of the
intersection of Denton Road and or Denton Avenue and Little Road. Here's the current subject site spanning from Denton Avenue down to a little bit of a tail there on Kitten Trail and then
a tail as you also kick eastward. current zoning map, the current future land use map reflecting its current residential six future land use designation as well as the IIL flu there on the the top left
corner. A contextual map for the for the planning commission. Here you can see the subject site outlined in red and then also that that east to west bifurcating red line is the Bolton Avenue extension. This extension uh
right now is not currently within the adopted comprehensive plan, but a part of that 2050 update is adding the Bolton extension onto the vision road network from Little Road out to Coyote. And you can see Coyote there as that black and
white dashed line. You can also see further south that black and white dashed line of a vision road which is Hicks Road which connects uh Kenton up to that future Bolton extension. As you move north, you have the approved
Denton Place MPUD, which is largely single family product. To the north, across the street, there is a school site, the county park site, which is Arthur Engle, and an existing R4 neighborhood.
This is the current proposed master plan. You can see the uh the light industrial there in red, the support commercial in purple, and the residential product type in the uh the orange tan color. We do have a binding
concept plan for this uh proposal here. And the big thing to to notice here is what the applicant did throughout the meetings with both staff and the the community is they put the larger lots on the boundaries of the neighborhood
especially where you had adjoining property owners. So to the south you see that that orange color which is the largest lots which are the 70 foot wide lots, the yellow which is 60s and then internal you have the the 50 foot wide lots. You can see the the linear park
space. um whenever we went to that that aerial map and there's that weird little tail on the southern end of the property. It's actually in between two current single family detached uh homes. So, what the applicant did was turn this into a park space with a meandering
trail there in red that's 10 ft wide which connects to the sidewalks being built on Kitten Trail as a part of the CIP. Those sidewalks on Kitten Trail take you to the sidewalks on Cobra Way of course to the to the school facility there on Cobra. Um the the support commercial here is
consistent with the IL future land use which says you can have up to 15% of the upland acreage as support commercial. The current proposal of 75,000 square feet and its associated acreage is roughly 7.8% of that that total area for
industrial there within that future land use category. This project also comes with a binding landscape plan here that the planning commission members can see that the applicant work working with the members of the community over the last four
years developed additional buffering um especially under the on that southern portion there and along Mattis Road depicted here and also here with the the Florida native plant pallet as the allowable species to be used.
the the regular LDC provisions would say that this project has to build sidewalks along its linear frontage um as a requirement of the code, but the applicant worked with staff in building an offsite portion of that sidewalk
which is shown in red. Um there's the cross uh a safe crossing area there demarcated by that hatched rectangle, the dotted line rect rectangle there, which allows pedestrians from this development as well as citizens that
live on Kitten Trail that can access this project through the linear park site um to the sidewalk that would be constructed in blue, taking you to the offsite segment in red, which is creditable against the bike ped um credits of the impact fees.
There's two variation analysis that come with this proposal here. The first from 9016D11 street design and dedication requirements continuation of existing street patterns. That's that southern vehicular connection to kitten trail. In lie of that connection, there's a
pedestrian connection through the linear park. And from LDC section 8056, restrictions on post uh development wetlands and upland buffers. This is for non-residential parals under single ownership to maintain their common space
and not have to establish a CDD HOA POA or likewise. This comes to you with a recommendation uh to approve to recommend approval to the board of county commissioners with conditions. I'm available for any questions. >> Did you say the existing zoning was R2?
>> I I misspoke. It was AC. I actually showed it on the map and it reflected AC. I don't know why I misspoke. There are two AC. >> The future land use is IL and red six. >> Yes, sir. >> Any idea how
that came to be? I mean, it's in a sea of it's it's like it sticks out like a sore thumb. It's in a sea of res three and public semi-public. I understand the public semi-public with the county wastewater facility next door, but just
trying to figure out how did we get res six pllopped in the middle of a res 3. >> I don't have any knowledge off the top of my head, but I I can certainly look around to see if there were any comprehensive plan amendments um to get
it to res 6 and IO. >> Okay, that'd be helpful. the southern uh pedestrian connection through to Kitten Trail. Is there a proposal there to also have emergency vehicular access?
>> No sir, just the linear park and pedestrian connection. Both functional access is required by the code for this amount of erus are both to Denton Avenue. They have two functional access to Denton Avenue on the north side as well as the east west connection that would be made with the extension of
Bolton. The applicant is dedicating right away and constructing um Bolton is needed for its side access and then barricading uh Bolton there on the uh on the ends to prevent travel to Mattis until such time as the road is punched
through to Coyote pursuant to the new vision road network or until Mattis is brought up to county standards. Yeah, I understand. It's It's probably going to be a little while before that gets built though. So that's what I was wondering just from
functionality standpoint for emergency access. You understand there is two two accesses to Denton, but >> and uh Terry just gave me clarification. The future land use has been there since 2006. Both the IL and the RES six. So,
it's not an original. It was amended at some point. >> Yes, sir. >> Anything else? >> Thank you. Barberville Height 6327 Grand Boulevard for the applicant went through uh I think um William went
through the applications as they existed in 2022. And you would have seen this before whoever was here in 2022 because this comprehensive plan amendment did come before you all. Um and then the MPD application got the entitlements that were requested at that time, the lot sizes, the type of
product, the non-residential, and there was vehicular access to and from Kitten Trail at that time on our plans. Our current application has changed. Not only has the year changed from 2022 to 2026, four years later, and by the way,
there was a there was a pause, as you saw in your packet in 2022, there was 114 pages of objections. It's a lot. So, we stopped, we paused the project and we put the project back together, a different project. We withdrew the
comprehensive plan amendment um and followed the comprehensive plan that the county had put in place on the property. We changed from the um 1462 single family homes and apartments and town
homes to the 832 single family detached homes. They're all just single family detached homes now. 60 and 70 foot lots along the perimeter. No 40s, no apartments, no town homes. 2.5 units per acre. So it's not anywhere near six. As we've mentioned, the current land use
designations on the property allow a maximum of 1462 homes. We have enhanced landscape and buffering plans, which you hear more about. We are non-residential is right in line with what the county's IL land use designation um dictates.
No emergency vehicular emergency access to or from Kitten Trail. That's with working with the neighbors and and their requests and concerns. and you've looked at the 114 pages of of comments that was a common comment that was received at that time. Passive park
on that property. We worked all out the details of that park and we'll go over some of those details as we worked with the neighbors. And as Will had mentioned, the county does have a fully funded under construction sidewalk project. Um, it's starts a little bit
east of our project and then it runs west to the schools and ultimately to Hicks and it runs back which I know if you caught what will said is not only are people going to go that way to to school but people from school can come through this project and get up through
our project and safely to the park which they don't have that safe passage now. And we added on my client's dime an enhanced um one of the the lights where you hit the light and the people can travel across um Denton so they can get across Denton. And then as you saw what
uh Will had mentioned about we'll go over what we're doing regarding the sidewalks in the area to making the passage even safer not only for our pro the folks from our project the kids from our project but also anybody from Kitten Trail and there's some folks from the east that this sidewalk is important to
as well. We'll get on some of those details. We held four neighborhood meetings. Pursuant to the code, neighborhood means are not required, but we held four of them in 2025. We did three of them fairly successive, 76, July 6th, July
23rd, and August 6th. And then you'll see there's a gap. And we did a fourth one. We promised the neighbors on our third meeting that we would come back and and show them the changes and answer questions that we weren't able to answer at the first three meetings.
Something I haven't seen clients do before they and during this pause in between August and December of last year, the client engaged Joe Simino is here. He's our project engineer to do a grading plan. And what that did for the project was allow the project to look
closer at drainage and flooding and flood plane compensation in light of the questions that were asked at our first three meetings about those issues. Um it allowed for a specific binding landscape plan to be created and presented at the fourth neighborhood meeting.
And it it specifically allowed having a having a grading plan allowed the client to be able to determine where they could save existing vegetation because that's always the question you get. behind my house, what happens to the trees? And so, we were able to answer that question
by doing the grading plan. Usually, you'll get up here and everybody will say, "It's too early. We haven't done any site planning. We don't know what our grading is going to be. We can't tell you we can save anything." We did the work so we could do the plan so we can save. It allowed us to have one-on-one
meetings. My client, Robert Melson, did those one-on-one meetings with homeowners to walk in their backyards and talk about the existing vegetation and the buffering behind their homes and what was being proposed. What's interesting when you talk go to these these meet neighborhood meetings, the
neighbors are like, "What are you going to plant? We don't want anything cookie cutter like you see in other parts of the county. We want landscaping that looks like our landscaping, native vegetation." So, not only did we look at enhanced enhanced landscaping
where we could where existing vegetation didn't have the opacity, we were going to supplement existing vegetation. We're saving existing vegetation. We're going to supplement it. But we also looked at the type of landscaping so that we could get something that just looked more like the area as opposed to when you see the
cookie cutter that goes in. So, that was done as well. the passive park only. Um that was discussed with the neighbors especially on the two sides of that parcel. They really wanted to see no active um recreation there. No playground, no
community pool, no sports courts, no sports fields. We have other areas in the community that we can do that. Um and we we'll put in a mandaring hiking and biking trail. Uh no vehicular access to and from Kitten, including no emergency access. Again, that was something that was requested. We can
meet the codes coming off of Denton. The code's very specific as to what you have to do for functional access and emergency access and we'll meet those requirements. >> What was the objection to the emergency access because it's >> just never used or very rarely >> just don't want any connectivity to
Kitten Trail. So, um changes made the 70 foot lots along the kitten trails that was a change made as a result of those of those meetings. Another med uh thing that the client agreed to is single family homes only
along the perimeter. This is this landscape plan and um my page caught up here. A lot of thought, a lot of detail went into this, not just it's a landscape plan that was based upon a grading plan and based upon
picking out species and really come up with something very special. If you go to the commissioner's offices, you'll see this on the wall because they like it. Um, all native species are what we're
talking about planting. Even even the care here as to what you know, so you could answer the question or Robert could answer the question when he was meeting with neighbors. You know, what's what are things going to look like? If you can see the details on this park, you'll see that there's a commitment
that the existing trees will remain within this passive park area. That was important to the neighbors. Can we keep the trees? So, we're going to meander the 10-ft path through those trees. Um, and you see that not noted on our binding plan. Well, after we worked with the
neighbors, we got to continue to work with staff and of course, we made our plans binding because we don't show something that you're not going to actually do. We have the enhanced Denton Avenue Pike pedestrian crossing which will allow folks going to the park, whether it be our residents or other people in the
community, to get across um Denton safely. Eventually, we think based upon our initial traffic analysis that probably our entrance, our spiral will be signalized at some point when it meets warrants, but we wanted to make sure we didn't wait till that point to get people safely across. So, we're
going to have an interim condition until it's signalized, if it's ever signalized, to get safe passage. As William has explained, we made sure we have a 10-ft multi-use path to Kitten and conditions that go along with that. So, not only can we get down to Kitten,
but everybody else can come up come up from Kitten through our project. And we'll show you the the slide here that deals with the off-site um sidewalk to Arthur Angle Park. So, what's interesting about this is that it it provides a missing segment. So, if you're out there now, if you want to
walk walk to the park, you're walking in the grass dirt. So now you have passage that you can come up our sidewalks across a enhanced crossing and then now walk on sidewalks which is actually 10 foot wide path all the way along to the park. We didn't stop at the entrance to
the park. The county said look at where the existing sidewalk stops for the folks in the summer chase subdivision. They go along a sidewalk right now coming into the east. You can see it right here. This project right on the east there. The subdivision on the east right now. They walk up along their sidewalk along their frontage and then
they walk in the dirt slash grass to get to the park. Staff said, "Let's continue this down." So now we're going to have they can also get to um the park and down through our project into school on sidewalks. So
we're just trying to fill in, you know, fill in and do things um to really try to make things work better in the existing areas. And with that, I do have my team with me. We have Joe Simino, um, project engineer, Mike Razer, Razer
Transportation, and Robert Melson, project representative. >> Are there any questions from >> if I can do a couple two things of housekeeping because I'll forget once we get rolling on public comment and responding. Um, we did do a consistency
analysis with the land development code and the comprehensive plan was provided electronically and I understand that it was provided to the clerk's office. If we can have a motion to receive and file that into the record. >> I hear a motion. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Have a second. All in favor? >> I.
>> And the same with my PowerPoint that's been pro provided electronically as well. >> Okay. Second motion. So moved. >> Second. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. All right. Is there anybody here that'd
like to speak on this? >> Mr. Chair, the first individual pre-registered to speak on this item is Mr. Ken Howard. >> Mr. Howard, get your full name and your address, please. >> Ken Howard. My address, 11117 Kitten
Trail. Now, we talked to the developer. He come to several house land owners around and talked about his plan and so forth. We talked about what is usual and customary for Pasco County. All of our
bordering properties, 32 of which are two plus acres of 32 residents, 29 of them are two plus acres and three of them are 9/10 of an acre. uh the size of
the lot that he has proposed meets nothing that was usual to what we live in the area. You've turned down two other developers in early 2000 2000 2005
one of them Coyote Acres told him he couldn't build two houses per acre it didn't fit was usual for the neighborhood where Mr. Mau's property on the corner of Kitten and Coyote. You
turned him down before Mr. Mau bought that. He wanted to put three mobile homes per acre. It said it was not usual to the area. So here we are now. Your man is telling you're talking two and a half houses per acre. It shouldn't be
allowed if you did not allow no one else. Acreage is the key for our area and I think you should be developing on acreage. You talked about Bolton Avenue. He has built he has his plan to build a road to
meet with Bolton Avenue. Bolton Avenue ends at Pasco County Properties, which is the water um reclamation property. We're going to go Nobody cared about Bolton Avenue
residents for decades. They've asked to repair their roads and nobody's done it. Nobody cared a bit about it. Now you're talking about using their street for access for his property going through water management property.
I don't see why with this plan in mind wasn't the Bolton County Bolton Avenue residents notified of what their plan is ahead of time so they could be here. No one on Bolton Avenue even knows of this development being built.
I was there yesterday myself talking to them. And as far as the traffic goes, you have Sage Rush Lane going in with 400 plus homes. Here you're going to have 800 plus homes. Denton Avenue definitely will not handle
that traffic. You see it every day. We live in the area. You're talking an industrial park with semis, heavy trucks, and only one entrance and exit to the area. The developer sat on my carport one day
while we was talking about the property and his industrial park. How it would be fit. >> You still have a minute left, sir. >> How would be fitting, he said, for an industrial park to be a um data processing center. It'd be nice
for his area without restrictions on his industrial park. We do not want a data processing area. By history, 100% of the time, local residents electricity bills have increased 100% because of the
amount of use of electricity. The amount of water that's needed for a data processing center is enormous in an area that's constantly every year water restrictions because we don't have the water that we need in the area and
we keep adding and keep adding to this usage. I think this should be turned down. If he goes with an industrial park, I think there are the restrictions under the industrial park what can be allowed and there's nothing said or anything about it.
>> Thank you. >> Okay. Thanks, sir. >> So, so I I hear the rest of your concerns. Um, can I get your since you live on Kitten Trail, can I get your opinion on uh emergency vehicular access that would be only open to fire and
>> Well, let me tell you about a fire we had on Kitten Trail about two years ago, three years ago, across the street next to the horse ranch that's across my street from my house. We called it in early in the morning. I came home from the dump. We called it in early in the morning. I seen the smoke billowing from
an old abandoned trailer and we called 911 right away. the neighbor across the street that runs the horse ranch. We sat there for 35 minutes before we ever seen a fire engine show up. The smoke
billowed. It was obviously there was somebody there that that put out the fire before fire rescue got there. But there the time that would for them to come to our area is ridiculous. Two weeks ago, we had an accident right in
front of my house. A car rolled over, took out my mailbox, crossed the street, rolled over into the field at the horse ranch, landed upside down underneath the tree. It was at least 20 minutes before fire rescue got there. We don't have
adequate fire rescue response. Not at all. >> So, and that kind of goes to my my point is into providing >> question. >> Yeah. My question was whether >> for emergency >> he's talking about the entrance to
>> so there's there's a piece of the project that cuts through to kitten trail where they have a park uh a pedestrian path but some of the residents have said that you know obvious not wanting regular vehic ve vehicular traffic but some of the residents also stated that they didn't
want emergency access there either which would only be open to police and fire. Well, you got >> where that infection was coming from. >> You got to stop to think about what people are going to use it for. I mean, you you tell people it's only for emergency exit or so forth. You don't >> Well, it would be it would be gated where they would only have be the only
ones that would have access to it. >> Yeah, it would be nice. I mean, cuz you're not going to have the amount of access to the property that it's going to be congested constantly. >> That's my concern. But the way is is
it's going to be used for kids crossing and so forth and you know they're going to use the park. You got kids down by the park now at Veterans Park. They cross everybody's properties to get to the park. You know, it it's aggravating for the the local land owners and
we just don't want the aggravation either. >> Yeah. The existing proposal already has the pedestrian connection, but that's that's why I wanted to hear your uh what your take was on having an emergency vehicle connection there that was only reserved for emergency. >> If it don't get abused, I wouldn't be opposed to it, but you know how things
get abused. >> Can we get an aerial photograph up there? >> I'm sorry. >> I'm asking the staff if they'll put an aerial photograph up there because I'd like to ask you if you can point out where you live in relation to this property.
You said you lived on Kitten Trail. >> Yes, sir. Where that point that the property touches connects with Kitten Trail? Um the second lot to the left of it. protected property. >> Okay. Ken >> 2 and a half acres.
>> So you back right up to it. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. >> Any other questions? >> Hey, thank you, sir. >> Next, Mr. Chair, the next individual signed up is one, Miss Tracy Low. Okay.
We get your name and address, please. >> Yes. My name is Tracy Low. I reside at 10408 Kitten Trail. >> And you've been sworn? >> I've been sworn. Yes, sir. I'm here today to emphasize the importance to keeping all external connections off of
and away from Kitten Trail. As submitted by new strategies holdings, our current infrastructure is presently failing and was built for AR and AC zoning, not high density developments. I would like to respectfully remind this planning commission of three things. One of the
drone footage emailed to you this past Tuesday and to the county commissioners on September 19th, 2022, illustrating the highly dangerous traffic congestion at the school's entrance and exit on Kitten Trail. Two, the tragic death of Miles Fango, the
15-year-old student who was hit and killed on Kitten Trail simply riding his bike to school. And three, the timing and phasing analysis completed in 2021. For the same project, identifying roadway failure at the intersection of Hicks and Kitten. If we need another
access, Bolton Avenue is a more logical choice for an external access connection than Kitten Trail. Bolton will be a direct connector to both Little and US19. Kitten dead ends into two different roads. The commission and the
county are aware of the safety and traffic concerns of Kitten Trail as illustrated by installation of street lights, school zones, and upcoming construction of sidewalks. However, this does not address the influx of traffic, the inherent dangers of this traffic, and the safety to both our residents of
Kitten Trails 122 adjacent rural properties and its three schools. I would also like to emphasize that this MPU violates land code 522.2 blending of densities and 522.4 developmental standards. Lot sizes of
50, 60, and 70 ft wide with 10-ft setbacks and 15t butters buffers of immature landscaping are not compatible with the 32 adjacent homes ranging from.92 to 40 acres or the surrounding area that consists of hundreds of homes.
on multiple acres. I asked this commission to consider how does four to six homes 35 feet away from a multi-acre rural property preserve the integrity of our rural community. Now imagine multiplying that 31 properties bordering
this development. How is this compatible with the surrounding area's use? How does this preserve the integrity of our rural community? It simply does not. and is simply not compatible. I would also like to emphasize the need
of an enhanced crosswalk for this proposed 10 foot meandering trail accessing Kitten Trail. With the construction of the new sidewalk by the county on the opposite side of Kitten Trail, students and pedestrians will need to cross Kitten to access the
sidewalk. This crosswalk will be needed to ensure pedestrian safety. Thank you for your consideration. >> Can I ask you a question? Could you repeat the code citations you said that were problematic? >> 522.4
I mean and 522.2. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Mr. Chair, the next individual is one Mr. Tim Low. Uh Tim Low. I reside at 10408 Kitten Trail. Um we've been there about 26
years now and we love our rural community. My main two concerns with this development are traffic and safety. As we have just recently pointed out from some of the other community members, Kitten Trail is pretty close to a racetrack right now. It it doesn't
currently support all the traffic needs. Um so we are highly against any access to Kitten Trail, even uh emergency access. There was a project called Palm Wind as recent as last year where Commissioner Starky had required that
the emergency access point now become vehicular use for that neighborhood. So that's what we want to prevent to happen on Kitten Trail because it just can't support it. It is a deadend road at at either end. It's less than two miles long. Um so we are strongly against that
again because it doesn't support it. And the sidewalk that's being uh proposed to be built on Kitten Trail is on the south side of the road. So we need some sort of safe access if this project does go through for the pedestrians and more importantly the children to cross Kitten
Kitten Trail. Um the other major concern again that's that's been voiced by many is the compatibility. We've got a very large track of land. It's beautiful and I do commend the developer. They've made uh a lot of improvements since the start of this, but we're still looking at 300
acres. Um that's going to have over 800 homes, over a half million square feet of commercial and industrial. Um one one thing that the studies don't show and haven't been talked about is the traffic that's going to come from the commercial and industrial side of this. They're
going to have multiple deliveries, multiple employees, multiple trips, excuse me, to those businesses, you know, throughout the day. more so than a single family home. Uh so we want to make sure you consider that
and just the sheer density as mentioned. We've got parals on the perimeter all three sides that are anywhere from 2 acres to 10 acres and now we're talking about an 8,000 square foot lot. That's the largest lot. You can fit 54 of those
on one of those 10acre parcels. to give you a little perspective of the incompatibility that we're dealing with. Um, this project isn't coming in next to another larger project, right? And we just have a couple estate or land owners
that are opposing it. When you zoom out a few more times, you can still recognize that parcel from a from a a vast distance there because it's it sticks out like a sore thumb like like mentioned and is not compatible. So like you to consider to um deny this project
on those points. Thank you for your time. The next individual is one Miss Cindy Henik. Hello, my name is Cindy Henik and I reside at 11623 Sunderberry Street. I live off of Denton.
Denton is already a racetrack and I mean I walk it every day to the park. Just just a it's wonderful to go to the park and everything, but there are there is so much traffic. They're already building what, three or 400 units down on the right side on my side of the
street farther closer to Littleton. And now you want to put in 832 homes on the left side of the street. Denton can't handle that. It's a two-lane street. There's just no way. And um it just it
just is going to destroy the beauty and everything to the to the area that all these people are living in. So that's all I wanted to say. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you for coming. >> The next individual is one, Mr. John
Henock. >> Hi, John Henick. I reside at 11623 Sunderberry. And that was my wife as well. I think she missed out the opportunity there on the water. I mean, there's always a water issue. Pasco County, we're already on restrictions. I'm I know there must have
been some kind of study or research on that, but um that's a consideration because I oppose this as well. The second thing is the is the uh traffic on Denting. I mean, there's it's all going to be funneled on Denton. There's only three east to west major arteries,
Hudson, Denton, and then Commercial up in Spring Hill. All of that traffic, I mean, is going down there to the dump, you know, the county dump. We already have an extreme amount of traffic on there. It's a racetrack. People are getting hit on there every day. Rollovers right in front of our
development. There's no there's no stop sites. There's no street lights. Uh it's a racetrack. So, take that into consideration. I oppose this development. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.
The >> next individual is one, Miss Sue Bolton. My name is Sue Bolton. I live at 10923 Kitten Trail. I've been there for a little over 30 years. Um, I have several concerns. one
flooding. My property is very low. When it rains, when we have big rains, the my sideyard fills up. Uh it looks like I have lake for the property. It's been a joke some with some of my friends. Um I'm very low
there. I am two houses. I'm second house from Dennis Drive, which backs up to it. Um, another problem that I find is the traffic. Kitten Trail is unbelievable.
Um, I have stuff in my front yard all the time because of people traveling to the dump and them it falling off of their trucks or their trailers. Another concern I have is the schools. We had one meeting where it was
questioned what are they going to what are the schools going to do about the kids that would move into this development and the comment was that's their problem. I worked for the schools
for over 20 years. I drove school bus for most of that 10 of it. The last of it I was a supervisor and we have a terrible time getting drivers and we have to go out and figure out
where these kids can be safe walking to a bus stop and guess those are my concerns. Thank you for your time. >> Okay, thank you very much. >> So, she brought up another concern I had as well um about these schools. Uh well,
I was gonna ask Liam maybe if you you may have some information on this because I understand in the application uh it looks like uh Hudson Primary Academy with the projected enrollment with this project would go from 86% of
capacity to 112% of capacity. So looks like uh Hudson Academy and Hudson High are still going to be within capacity with this development, but we'd be over capacity on the elementary schools. So, do you have any thoughts on that or? >> So, yes, you do have to keep in mind that
there are other school options that people take advantage these days. So, not necessarily all of those kids would be going to that school. Um, that's something we monitor regularly. Um, there's definitely space at those campuses. So, if expansion needs to
happen, that's something we could take a look at. Um, but we do monitor that very closely. Yeah, because it looks like all three of them are only at about 80 between 81 and 86% capacity at the moment. So,
>> all right. Thank you, Liam. >> Thank you. Thanks. >> Thank you very much coming. >> The next individual is one Mr. Jeff Mccleed. >> How you doing? My name is uh Jeff Mloud.
um live at 12550 Kitten Trail. Um I oppose this mainly because of the acreage part of it. I got four acres out there. When I first bought the property 30 years ago, it was because of the horses, one of the farms and everything.
And now you want to stick three or four homes in one piece of property or one acre and it's just not right. But it's also the schooling now. Just like she said, you got enough room for all these people and the traffic, the traffic is
just horrendous. I mean, you know, you can put speed signs up, but it don't work. And uh so I do oppose this uh the zoning. So, thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> The next individual is one, Miss Sher
Howard. Good afternoon. My name is Sheri Howard. I live at 11117 Kitten Trail. So, first of all, I'm just going to say I agree with everything that everyone has said. I oppose this vehemently. Um,
mostly the lot sizes. I would love to see larger lots, acreage lots actually. And talking about the kitten trail, even with the sidewalks, kitten trail scares me. We have cars rolling through our ditch. We have cars rolling down the
road, cars and trucks. It's crazy. I get past on Kitten Trail pretty much every day that I come home because I'm doing this. Even in the school zone, it's a extremely dangerous road. And I've been on Denton Road and they're
just as crazy back there. I think it's the same drivers. Anyway, um water. It seems like we go into a drought earlier every single year. I don't I
don't know where our water comes from. And you you all just keep approving more and more large lots like this, developments like this. It's it's extremely scary. And Bolton Avenue
My husband spoke about the residents on Bolton. So, I appreciate them closing off Kitten Trail. The cars won't be coming out that way, but I think it's extremely unfair to the residents of Balden
to make them pay the price. Thank you. >> Thank you. The next individual is when Miss Deborah Kosh. >> Hi, my name is Deborah Kosh. I live at 11241 Kitten Trail. Our house is
directly the other side of the walkthrough park area. Um, we originally chose to live on Kitten Trail for the acreage. We love the quiet, the agriculture.
I agree with all what all the other neighbors have said and greatly oppose this. We're concerned about water. We're concerned about the traffic and also the sidewalks if they do go through and approve that there would
need to be a sidewalk on the side of where the park is to keep everything safe. And that's it. >> That's it. >> Thank you for your time. >> Thank you very much. The next individual is one Hari L.
Hi, I am the mother of Jeff Laauo and Bonnie Cotch. And they chose this piece of land because they thought it was country as most all of these people did. Now everything is
going to be taken away from them. There's going to be busier roads. There's going to be a huge subdivision in there. the water. Forget that. There is not enough water to go around.
And I just I have so much concern for these people. I really do. It's It's not going to work just because of the money. It's not going to work.
That's it. Thank you. >> Can we get your >> name and address? Yeah. >> Name and address for the record. Can you state your name and address for? >> Yes, my name is on there. >> Can you just say it's the clerk's office name? >> Oh,
>> my actual address is 6450 Juniper Road, Port Richie. And we also have a lack of water. >> And your name, ma'am? >> My name is Hillilary Laaua. Okay. >> L A U E R.
>> Thank you. The next individual sign up to speak is Miss Deborah Rogers. Good afternoon. My name is Deborah Rogers. I live at 10311 Kitten Trail. And as everyone else has has stated, I
have a lot of concerns. I have concerns especially with the traffic. My home is almost par or in front of the school and the traffic that comes out of there is ridiculous. I've been here since 22. So
only four years. And in the four years that I have been here, the traffic has multiplied unbelievably. uh because of unfortunately that young gentleman losing his life, they put up the uh caution lights which are not even
being adhered to as it is with the traffic that comes through there. And if we have additional traffic coming in, then it's even going to be worse. As far as the um schools are concerned, I know that you said something to the effect of
only 86%. But you also have other developments going in that are also going to be affecting these schools. And with that and with these homes coming in again, we could potentially have even more traffic with younger children driving to and
from school or their parents taking them, which is what happens a lot, which I see throughout the Pasco County as it is. Again, like I said, I don't originally come from here, but I do see that a lot of parents don't even use the uh bus transport. They actually take
them, which just multiplies the amount of traffic that's on there. I myself have almost gotten hit multiple times just even trying to go into my yard with my directional from people passing. They think that it is a straight raceway and
I am surprised that more people have not unfortunately got either got into an accident or lost their lives. Um my other concern also would be the um the water situation as well because I know that we get bans on water and you have
again all these multiple um developments coming in and they are I'm assuming are definitely going to be taking from our uh water sources. We moved out here also as a lot of other people did because we wanted the acorage
you know we have animals. I originally come from a larger acreage farm and I wanted to come out and be in the country again. And now you're opening it up to have like three houses on one acre lot. Everybody on Kitten Trail moved to
Kitten Trail because they wanted the acreage. They wanted the country living. And now you you're proposing that this development is going to come in and take that away from us. Um,
again, I just I am opposing just as well as everyone else speaking prior to me. Um, I really do not want this development going in. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> The next individual is one, Mr. David Rogers.
>> Good afternoon. My name is David Rogers. I live on 10311 Kitten Trail. And pretty much what everybody said, I agree with that, too. But the two main things is which my wife just mentioned was the traffic. We live with it that late and it gets worse and worse by the week
speeding. And if you you guys put that sidewalk in with the kids on them, it's not going to work out well. There's going to be accidents out there. It really is. The water's not going to be a good thing neither. And to touch on the
rural section, like we lived on 10 acres back in Rhode Island and we bought this property because of the royal and having the animals and having that in our backyard is it's like you got a zoning for a reason. It's almost like you can spin a wand and change the zoning at any
given time to make these big developments come. I don't think it's it's right to where we are and to change zones like that. I just don't understand how that can happen. So I am against this very much.
Thank you. Thank you. >> The next individual is Wendell McGregor. The next individual would be Jim Lle. And then moving to Pam Jackson. Good afternoon. My name is Pam Jackson. I live at 17814 Meridian Boulevard in
Hudson. It's just north of this development. Uh my husband and I have lived there for 35 years and we moved to Pesco because it is a nice rural community. The tagline is open spaces and vibrant places and we feel like this
is changing the whole community. Um I'm a realtor and a broker and I and I understand development. I feel like there are cycles that happen in real estate and there was a huge demand
because of COVID. The developers came to meet the demand, but there are so many developments that have already been planned and put into place that I feel like this is an additional and overdevelopment now and we're going to end up like the car washes and the storage units. Everybody's come in and
done these things that there was a need for, but there's a limit to where it needs to go. And I feel like we've met that limit. And again, water shortages. How are these people going to end up with with any kind of water? I'm on a
well, and I'm very concerned that my water supply is going to run out because of these new developments that are going in. There's all kinds If you go down Hudson Avenue, there's new developments. If you go down Little Road, there's all kinds of developments. We need to leave some of Pasco as rural Pasco. And I
really feel like Thank you. I really feel like it's time to say no. Um, also where I live in the Highlands, there is a subdivision that was put up right in front of our of our subdivision. We're in two and a half to 5 acre parcels.
There was an agreement that there was going to be a 20- foot buffer between our development and the new development. They went in there, they mowed everything down. It's gone now. That was a binding contract that they were supposed to leave that 24 the 20 foot buffer and not touch those trees. And
the the developer went in and mowed everything down. They had to stop and they probably got fined, but they did it anyhow. And I appreciate that this developer sounds like he's being um responsible and and the binding agreement sounds wonderful, but it
doesn't happen sometimes. And once that's gone, it's gone. these trees and the the animals have no place to live. I know that's not something anybody cares about anymore, but I would really appreciate if you would consider keeping Pasco rural. That's why we moved here.
That's why we love this area. Thank you for your time. >> You Yes. >> I said thank you. >> Thank you, Kurt. The next individual is one Lisa. Good afternoon. My name is Lisa Beeris
and I live at 10810 Kitten Trail, Hudson, Florida. Um I have a little bit of different perspective on commenting today. So I want to start by saying that I am standing here today out of profound
respect for this board and the weight of the decisions you all have to make. However, because I respect the process, I feel I owe you and my neighbors the absolute unvarnished truth about how
this project will impact our lives. I'm here today because there is a massive disconnect between the people sitting in these chairs and the people standing here at this podium, those who represent us.
We look at the land and see a vital piece of Florida's soul, a habitat for wildlife and a buffer for our rural way of life. But it seems some of you look at this land and see nothing but a postage stamp on a map.
ready to be sold to the highest bidder. In comparison to all this massive development going on in our county, it is a postage stamp. But let's be honest, this isn't just one sub subdivision. This is the start of a forced
transformation. You are trying to turn our agricultural peaceful areas into many cities. Every day we see the progress of your previous decisions. We see it in the mounting traffic on our roadways. And we
see it in the carcasses of wildlife strewed across our roads because they have nowhere left to go. Their blood is the price of this growth. We the people here elected you to be our voices,
not a rubber stamp for these developers who don't live here and don't care about the quality of life that we are paving over. When the people you represent shout no in unison and you still lean towards
yes, we have to ask who are you actually working for? Is your priority the long-term health of Pasco County? Or is it the short-term greed of those who want to turn our woods into concrete? Winning this fight for this project
shouldn't be a battle. It should be our duty. We didn't vote for you to help destroy Florida. We voted for you to save it. This board has a choice today. You could be the leaders who finally draw the line in the sand and protect what's left of
our true Florida homes. Or you could be the ones who hand the keys over to the bulldozers. We are watching. We are waiting. And we are asking you to finally put the citizens above the speculators to deny this request of the Denton project.
Thank you for your time. >> The next individual I believe is this. >> Who is it? >> I believe it's this. Not all of these are as legible as others. >> Oh, okay.
Hopefully this is the right person. >> Hello. Good afternoon. My name is Tamara DC. Tamara rhymes with camera. DC like AC/DC. >> Wasn't even close. >> I live at 15620 Mattis Road. I've lived on Mattis Road
since 1992 and I've grown to love the open spaces and that's disappearing. As my all my neighbors can contest. I I agree with all their sentiments today and that last presentation was quite um well written
and well presented and um I think it represents our opinions about the growing development in Pasco County. You know, I love the peace and quiet out there, and that's changing as more and more traffic comes along Denton Avenue,
which is hard to pull out to now from Mattis Road. Takes much longer to pull out into Denton Avenue because there is so much more traffic. Um, also in addition to the peace and quiet, we have gunshot noises out there
because a lot of people own firearms and they're allowed to do that because it's our amendment, first amendment right to have or second amendment to have firearms. So, I'm afraid that might go away when the neighbors, the new neighbors, the 532 homes, 832 homes
start complaining about the gunshots because I can hear them all the way across the Mattis Ranch. used to be the Mattis Ranch all the way from Dennis Drive. So, a lot of my neighbors have shooting ranges in their backyards and I'm wondering, >> you have an acre or more you can legally
>> I have 10. My children have 10 next to me. So, we all have quite a bit of acorage. So, those are things, you know, I know the flavor is going to be gone once they start building all the homes. And I appreciate um what this newer developer has done to make changes
according to the neighborhood meetings. I mean, I really do appreciate the changes they've made and taken into consideration, but at the same time, I I still have to say that I oppose it because um at the density primarily also, I mean, I just built another home
600 ft back off the road because I knew development was coming and it was considerable expense and I really had to fight the county to stay on my own property to build another home on my own property and then remove the first home from my own property in order to to live
on my AC zone property. And now, you know, there's going to be three houses per acre across the street. So, it's a little hard to swallow sometimes. But, um, basically, I guess, you know, in addition to the traffic, the noise,
just the the change in in the rural nature of the area. Um, I guess that the other part that's hard to see, all the trees coming down. Of course, they've already come down mostly on that property. I I lived there when it was all trees just about. But um most of the trees have come down, but everywhere you
look, like one of the other ladies was saying, you drive down Hudson Avenue and what used to be woods is gone because there's a new development going. And so they are popping up all over in West Pasco. And um I just hope that you will
not in in in the words of someone very wise said, "Please don't pineelis my Pasco. Can you come back one second? I had a question to ask you. >> Yes. >> Do you have any interest in or objection
to paving Mattis Road? Um, I know some of my neighbors want it paved because they have a business at the end of the road and um, it does tear up the the vehicles, but I'm also wondering how the traffic I mean it already flies. People
already fly down that road. I think you should be going 25 or 30. I have actually been passed on my own road, Mattis Road. So, I think it will be better for the vehicles. I won't have to probably go to the car wash three times a week. But um I wonder how you will
keep the traffic from go flying down to the end of the street to you know a lot of people going to Kitty up and I know that they would like to have the road paved and I understand if the Bolton comes out to Mattis Road then I'm guessing the county would pave it but from what I was reading last night it
sound like the developer would have no um they wouldn't be paying for that. I'm guessing we would as the owners along Mattis or who would be paying for those improvements although it's a countymaintained road who would be paying for that
>> I think you just answered my next question one so yes it is a countymaintained roadway okay >> and I don't know right now there's no proposal to pave it but there's some discussion about that so that's I wanted to get your opinion on that
>> yeah I'm not too keen on Bolton you know ending right there at Mattis Road and I'm sure the neighbors that are right across from where that dead end is probably they don't like it. And I'm wondering how you take the property next to it to go all the way to Coyote. Is there like a eminent domain or h how
does that happen? >> Um because I'm sure someone must own that >> proposed along property lines so it would be at the edge of a property but >> okay >> there would still be some relinquishment. Yeah. >> I was just curious because it's like that would be like a road to nowhere but eventually if you do something with coyote then I totally understand.
>> Sure. >> Yeah. But um so I understand that it's going to be paved someday and it'll be nice easier on the cars, but I wonder how fast people will drive down because they already drive too fast on a dirt road as it is. >> Okay. All right.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you. The next individual is one, Miss Susan Stephy. I'm Susan Steppy. I live at 12517 Kitten Trail and basically everything these people said is true. Um,
this development will destroy our community as we know it. It's peaceful. 40 years ago, I had a four bedroomedroom, two bath, two twocar garage home in a gated community with a pool, tennis courts. Um, I traded my
home for a mobile home on some land out on Kitten Trail because the peace, uh, the freedom, you can't describe it unless living in a development versus the freedom and the beauty that you have out there. It's
like National Geographic. We had horses, there's wildlife. Uh, you've got your freedoms and this is taking away our freedom. This is going to destroy our community. It's going to destroy the wildlife. We can't handle what they want
to put in there. If uh they want to be more concerned about the community, um maybe put it on two or three acres, a home, this kind of thing to blend. But what they're going to do now is going to destroy it. We can't handle it.
And pretty much everything everybody said is true. And I'm totally against it. Not unless they take the considerations of the community and the beauty that's out there. They're going to destroy what's there now. It's this isn't the nature coast anymore. Everywhere you go, I mean, the traffic
is awful in front of my place. And I work in a group home with uh disabled people on a haze by Oakwood. And the traffic coming from the developments they're putting in there, it's a cut through. Everything from Shady Hills that they're tearing up and building.
Everything for 52 and Haze that they're building, it's a cut through. So everybody cuts through Hayes, they cut down Oakwood, they cut down Kitten Trail, they cut down Denton, and the traffic is awful. Now, you put this in, you're going to destroy this community. Where are you going to ride your horse on the sidewalk? You really
going to try to put a a walkway across uh Kitten Trail or Denton? People get hit now. You can't. You're going to destroy the whole beauty of what we have now. And it's a cut through. The traffic is bad. You're going to have to widen the roads.
You're going to have to have more cops. We're going to have I mean, it's going to be a mess. So, I'm against it unless they try to uh make it more conducive with the way we live and have more acreage. One home per
three acres like everybody else. It's it's a matter of greed. That's what it is. They don't care. So, I mean, they can put up flowers and little parks or whatever they say they're going to do. It ain't happening. What's the lie? 60 ft, 70 ft, that's nothing.
So, they're going to destroy our community pretty much. And uh I think they should change their plans if they're obviously they're going to do something with the property, but they should change the plans, make it more conducive to the way we live out there.
And that's pretty much what I have to say. Everybody else covered it pretty good. But the traffic is bad. People are going to get killed. Kids are going to get killed. You can't cross the road with a walkway or even a sidewalk where you can ride your horse. There's two big horse ranches on Kitten Trail.
>> Okay. your expired. >> Thank you so much. >> The next individual is one Miss Julia Law. >> Good afternoon. My name is Julia Law. That's my sister Sue. We bought our property at 12517 Kitten Trail about 40
years ago and we did that to get out of a subdivision. We decided we were going to go move up into the country, have some acorage, have some horses like everybody else does up there and putting this subdivision in, which we're very much opposed to by the way they have it
with the 70oot home sites. Now, if they put in an equestrian subdivision with one or two acre parcels, it would assimilate better to the people that have been living in this area for the last 40, 50 years and generations for that matter. Um, I have
a question with the water. I didn't hear anybody explain. >> Yeah, I think that was brought up several times. >> Are they going to be on county water? Is it going to be a well? What are they going to do? Well, she's gonna when the applicant comes back up, she can answer this question.
>> Okay. Okay. Sounds good. Also, this area is very rich in history of Indian artifacts and wildlife. Anybody that lives out there knows the coyotes that are in our yards all the time attacking our chickens. We've got pigs, cows, you name it. It's a farming community. It's
not conducive to subdivisions. Florida has become like the southern border. Ever since COVID, everybody's coming into Florida and they're not assimilating. I mean, it's bad enough if I got to press two for English, I can't press two for a country. What's going to
happen? Everybody in Hudson is going to move up to Swany to get the hell out of Dodge because what we put our our money and our time and our lives into is taking get taken away from people coming down from up north and tearing down all our trees and our privacy. And I was a
deputy from 1996, I'm sorry, 1986 to 2000. I worked out in six. I loved it. Never had a call. You know why? Those people don't call 911 out there. They're out there shooting their shotguns at sunset. You think that new little
community is going to like that? >> It is what it is. There's no code. >> I'm going to steal that quote, by the way. Can't press two for country. >> So, in closing, I just want to say that this is not going to work. Um, it's going to really be an undue hardship on the sheriff's office because when this
community that they're planning gets going, they're going to be calling for everything. Everything. There's pigs walking down the street, going into other people's yards. There's horses. People ride their horses or ATVs up and down the street. It's not going to work. So, I appreciate your attention in this matter. Have a good day.
>> Thank you. The last individual pre-register to speak is Skyler Tally. >> Skyler, forget your name and address, please. >> Skyler Tally. I'm at 10929 Kitten Trail. As you can see, I'm in my work clothes
today. This is so important to me to be here that I didn't really have time to change. Um, you can probably tell that I don't have the tenure that most of these residents do in this area. Um, been here
not very long. Um, but my property is at the corner of this development. We can see him over our back fence. I'm going to speak to some direct experiences that I have with some of the things that other people have spoken
about. I have four children. One attends Hudson Academy. Three of them are actually through school choice. their homeschool primarily because Hudson Primary Academy does not have the
ability to accommodate as many children that are in classes already. We're talking about 800 houses on a good day. I mean, in this case, half of those houses will have one kitten.
That that alone is already gonna dramatically change the school that is right nearby. The school that I have to drive to every single day to drop my son off. the school that I enter the 20 mile per hour zone and I'm passed by one,
two, three cars flying 40, 50 miles an hour that are ignoring these signs that we put up for the safety of the kids, for the safety of the community, for the safety of the people driving on this road. The problem that I see with this is that
there this is 45 50 miles an hour there. I have to go to turn on my driveway and people are flying past me at 60 or 70 highway speeds. And this is on Kitten. Nobody's spoken about Denton. I don't drive down Denton because on Denton
Avenue there's less density and people are driving at those speeds regularly. I feel like going the speed limit on Denton is almost a crime. I feel like I'm going to be pulled over for going too slow and impeding traffic.
Not just that, I am a farmer. I do have animals. I do hear shotguns. I do hear pistols. I do hear rifles every single day. We're talking about 830 homes that they have
said is are going to start in the 600 to $700,000 range. These are not people who are going to be moving into this area for the rural lifestyle and the rural community that we are a part of right now. These are people that are going to have complaints consistently and are
going to change the way of life of all the residents that have been here for decades or the people who have moved here for the purpose of the land at the acreage that we have. I completely oppose the development as
they have it set right now. Anything less than 1acre lots is going to change the entire community. Even 1acre lots, you're still going to find people who are moving for the space. It's not enough.
>> Thank you. Thank you so much. >> Okay. Is there anybody here to speak that didn't have a chance? >> We need your name and address. >> Yeah. >> How you doing and thank you for being here and letting everybody get here to speak. My name is Martin Dolvak. I'm at
15432 Dennis Drive. I live on the corner of Bolton and Dennis and on the property is my backyard where they want to build. Martin, have you been sworn? >> Yes, I was here for that. Well, my question is, when I built my house, and I did build it, and I went through your
county, your codes, your regulations, setbacks, side 25 ft, back line 50 ft. Now, I got four acres and you're going to change all that, and now they're doing 70, 60, and 50 foot zoning.
I don't understand why you need too big such a small and I don't like talking either, but I don't understand why there's got to be such a big development with the traffic and everything. Now, if you open up Bolton, which wasn't proposed when we talked to them, they said they were going to stop and at first priority when
they showed it, it ran through our property through my garage, not down the side. They just did that. Now, when you open up Bolton, I live on Dennis Drive. That's one dusty road. We own to the middle of the road. Now we're going to have traffic coming down the
middle of that road. Can I block it because you guys don't maintain it. It is our property to the middle. And that's what's going to wind up happening because there's going to be a problem because people going to fly down our road because like I said, I'm right
at the corner of uh Bolton and Dennis and everything everybody said 100% agree with them. There's there used to be eagles on the back of the property. When they took out the uh pine cone tree or pine trees along Denton, they took them all out. Eagles left. There's two red
fox or not red foxes, red wolves in that wood. Also, they'll have seen personally. I have bobcats on my camera. There is every walk of life and extinct little animals and lizards and things that you don't wouldn't even imagine that you see.
I mean, even on my property, yes, it's, you know, dangerous. Five foot rattlesnakes, they're there. Pygmy rattles, corals, they're all there. Coach whips, everything. Possums, raccoons, uh, every walk of animal you can think
of, they're all crowded in. And you take that from, they got nowhere to go. And the main thing, my thing is, for the amount of houses, they're putting, you know, 800 houses on 300 acres. and how can they get away with such a small piece of property when we have setbacks
or had setbacks and it's all AR. That's all I got to say. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Okay, that's all we have on the question inside like to respond.
Barbara Will height for the applicant, can you put the rural character area layer on, please, so people can kind of see where the rural area is out here and where it's not? planning areas I think and then rural areas
>> planning areas and then down to rural areas. So, in 2006, the county when I was with the county um amended the comprehensive plan to specifically detail where in the county was going to remain rural. And in this area, you heard quite a few
speakers and I looked up every speaker where they lived um as they spoke. And quite a few of the speakers talked about their properties and they live in the rural character area. The royal character area was is predominantly resz one and it stops at coyote because at
coyote coyote the land the county's land use designations changed to three on this property six. So that area is a final form of development and it was decided that way. The issue in 2006 was
identifying what's rural and what's not. This area is not rural. So when you approach it this project you have to recognize that and so it's a balance we have res six land use on this property
and it means something as regarding size of lots. If you look at page 55 of the compatibility study, you'll see an analysis of what's the county has determined to be compatible with larger
lots. What's not on this list is Summerchase and two people spoke from Summerchase. Summerchase is an R4 development, 6,000 foot lots. Next to those 6,000 foot lots is a 6.5 acre parcel and a 12.92 acre parcel that
was determined compatible. Those lots are 6,000 square feet. We're doing 7,000 square feet plus and along our along Kitten and then we're doing the 6,000 square foot lots as well. So, it's also important to have context that these decisions have been made by the county
as to what is compatible over and over and over. Denton Place has five acre adjacencies next to 40 foot lots. Hudson Family Trail has, excuse me, Sackleson approved just
recently has a 17.55 acre lot next to a 60acre lot. So between the land use on the property and what's already been determined to be what's compatible, we could have proposed a lot smaller lot sizes,
but we didn't because we tried to achieve a balance. We meant we were purposely had those four meetings to listen to the residents. But what we're not going to do is change what the properties have the right to do. You know, I heard a lot of descriptions of the property as our property. In the end of the day, it's not their property.
It's the property owner's property. So, we got to keep that some context in mind and that's why we tried to reach a balance in trying to to work on buffering. I know Miss Low talked about our buffering plan, but I'm going to see if I can get her the buffering plan because it's actually is 20 foot buff 20
foot buffer, not 15. And we're not talking about immature plants. We're we're talking about opacity. We're going to keep existing vegetation. We're going to supplement where it's not 100% opacity today. were going to supplement and with a specific landscaping plan. So
that just wasn't it was very thoughtful in the way that was done again trying to achieve that balance. So other projects were approved with minimal county buffers, 40 foot lots. We could have done that and we could have proposed it and we could have said it's already been done. It's already acceptable and dent in place you all
recommended approval of the board approved it as well. But we didn't. We listened. We changed. We try to do things but what we not can't do and I mentioned this residents we met with them four times is go away you know we have property rights as well
the property will be on and when you heard the first speaker talk about coyote acres and kitten coyote those are in the rural character area so it's usual for that area is final form of development rural character no land use changes are supposed to happen in that area and we're not seeking a land use
change here central water and sewer your comprehensive plan says and I know this as an expert. Your comprehensive plan says where there's central water and sewer, the minimum density needs to be around three units per acre so that there's efficient use of public infrastructure that the public's put in
place. This project has central water and sewer at its doorstep. With regard to Cobra Way and Kitten Trail, yes, I'm aware of the death of the student um who was riding their bicycle on Kitten Trail in the dark or
hours. Regardless of that, we don't propose any access to Kitten Trail. The county has come in and done the sidewalk. We're happy to put in the same enhanced pedestrian crossing that we're putting in Denton that we're we can put that in Kitten. We can make that a condition of
approval if you if you're ready to vote on this today. and and want to recommend approval, we can put the same crossing there as well. I'm not sure the exact and I looked up 522.2 and 522.4. I don't know the exact u there's pretty
long sections there um relative to that code. Not sure exactly what sections I we do have obviously we've done a traffic analysis year of traffic over and over and over again. One thing I want to do point I want to point out about um our students.
We worked with the school board to determine whether our students would be bust and we have I have an email from Chris Williams that our students will be bust. So it's just a something an issue that people always have the question will
they be busted will they not be bust our students will be bust. I will have >> excuse me, >> Joe Simino talk about water and flooding. Yes. >> Hold on a second. Would like you to please hold your conversations in the audience. We're
giving you every opportunity to speak. Now, we need to give the fair opportunity to speak. So, let's just be courteous. We'll have Joseph Mil come up and talk about flooding and the different things that he heard that he can add to in a
few minutes. Um the commercial industrial that's the county's land use on the property. We're obligated to follow that land use. So that's how that came to be the county and we actually our first amendment actually seek to change that and the county pushed back um and said they
really wanted to see that industrial and the support commercial preserved. So that's how that came to be. The um traffic, we did our traffic analysis based upon access from Denton. I want to clear up the Bolton because I'm maybe there was some confusion. Um
we're not proposing to construct Bolton. We were asked to accommodate Bolton through our property. So we're not our access doesn't depend on Bolton. Wasn't included in our traffic study. We're not proposing to do anything offsite to Bolton. We were asked to accommodate Bolton because the county was putting
Bolton in as a vision road to to um accommodate future Vision Road if it ever comes to be. But our project is not accessing from Bolton. Our project is accessing from Denton. Our traffic study was based upon access from Denton. We meet all of the requirements in the land
development code that you have to meet in order for prop the property to be zoned in the manner that we have proposed. We've submitted a 55page compatibility analysis going through every policy of the code, every policy of the comp plan, and showing consistency with that. Again, being thoughtful, making sure
we're doing everything right, making sure we're dotting the eyes, crossing the tees, just making sure I took really good notes. So, I do want to um make sure that I address different things that people brought up. >> So, you said >> we're in Mattis, we don't, you know,
Mattis, we're not going to use Mattis. We're not using Mattis for for access. So, we're not going to change Mattis whether they want it paved or not paved. You know, I just wanted to make sure that was clear that, you know, our property, our project's not going to use
Mattis for access. It is a existing dirt road at this time. The question of county water versus wells, it will be on central water and sewer, which is, you know, it's it's not wells and not septic. What did I forget to address?
Um, where do you think most of the traffic is going to be uh generated? What roads are they going to be generated onto? >> Our traffic access in the study that transportation analysis that we did is based upon access to and from Denton.
Our previous traffic study that was referenced in 2021, we had a connection to Kitten. So, we had to study Kitten. But when we remove that access from kitten at the request of the neighbors, all of it including emergency access um we no longer have any access to kitten.
So our study is based upon access to and from Denton. We do think at some point um our spine road will connecting to Denton will require traffic signal which will help the speeding that you hear when that when we're warranted
we anticipate a condition on our access management analysis. Access management is done for next stage, not not the zoning stage in this case, but we anticipate will be signalized at some point at that spine road, which will not only help get people across the road,
it'll also help break up the speeding. >> But did you say the density was >> the comp plan density? >> No, the project density >> 832. >> Oh, 2.5. >> 2.5. Okay.
So most of the people spoke today, are you saying that they live in that green area there? >> I'm sorry, J. >> Most of the people that spoke today, are they living in >> No, I mean we they there are people that live in the green area and we met them at our neighborhood meetings and I tried
to tell them to contact Hyatt and to learn what the rural character area means to their property. Um, I still think they should contact the county so they understand what it means to be in the rural character area because it is a specially protected area. It doesn't have any res six land use in it. Doesn't have any res three land use in it. It's
got res one land uses and and lower. So, but I think you you know I chart everybody out and neighbors. We have neighbors on Kitten and there's a neighbor on Mattis and their and their uh child their son and daughter and then Dennis Drive are the people that spoke today and then
two people from Summerchase. I was trying to keep track of where everybody was. I would say that the project's going to based upon the new mobility fees. Kind of interesting. I was calculating looking at what you guys looked at a couple weeks ago on March 19th as to what's going on with the mobility fees. This project will pay
$11.5 million in mobility fees just for the residential. You take that together with Dent in Place, which has been referenced here, which is a Dr. Horton LAR project that's underway. Based upon 2025 rates, they're going to pay 7.5 million um in mobility
fees, which and their mo their mobility fees are earmarked to um construction in this area. It'll be interesting to see if the board just does that to this project as well. if they approve it, whether they earark it for road construction. But between those the two projects, there's
about a $20 million um fees that are being generated to pay for road improvements. I'm going to let Joe Simino talk to you all about engineering things. >> While Joe's coming up, I think one of
the other issues with the might be able to stick to this is school capacity. I think one of the Yeah. So, our concurren concurrency say area for this um zone is is well under capacity. Um why there is development going on in this area um we
monitor that closely. Again, not everybody not every student is going to be going to the school. There's multiple options now for students. Um we've also had a decline in enrollment in our schools for the second year in a row. Um so that's something we monitor as well
with new developments. We also two miles south on Hicks Road. So two miles south of Kenton Road on Hicks, we own a 40 acre parcel as well that is reserved for an elementary school. So if there is some sort of massive increase
that couldn't be handled by maybe a new wing or portables to to manage that capacity, um there there's certainly property that we already have in the area that we could use for a new school if that was needed. Every site plan that comes into the county, there's a
concurrency review that the school board does. So, they know when houses are being proposed for construction because they're getting notice of that. So, they're keeping pretty good track of where developments are going, when they're going.
So, >> okay. Do you want to come up? >> Yes. I forgot about him. I love that. Joe, thank you. >> Council members, chairman, good afternoon. Joe Simino, W engineering, 12363 Hampton Park Boulevard, Tampa,
Florida 33624. Um, I'll address the portable supply first. Um, completely understandable concern. It goes without saying these folks livelihood relies on their water wells working. Um, we are connecting to
central water. Uh, you know, we do a lot of projects on pretty major developed areas where we spend time chasing utility connections, but this just happens to be one where we have a 24-in force main, a 12-in water man, and a 16-in reclaimed water man right at our front door. So,
>> So, where's the water that fills that water man coming from? >> Yep. Exactly. So, there is not a drop of that water that will be coming from underneath this land or underneath the land. >> I didn't ask you that. I asked you where it's coming from. >> Uh, it would be coming from a Tampa Bay
water backbone, hundreds of miles that's being sourced. So, right now, if I go into a restaurant, >> I can't get a glass of water unless I specifically asked for it, which I'm not
sure whose brilliant idea that was, but how do we how do we reconcile that you can't get a glass of water in a restaurant with the construction of 832 homes, a shopping
center and an industrial park. >> So, uh, what is the what is the specific question? How do we represent >> I'm asking where does the water come from? Right now, you're not allowed to sprinkle your grass and you can't get a glass of water at a restaurant. We're
not in phase one, phase two. We're in phase three water restrictions. Okay. >> Okay. Where's the water coming from? The water for this particular property will be coming from the distribution main on
Denton Avenue which pulls from the Tampa Bay water backbone which sources from surface water sources desalination plant and groundwater wells closest one probably 10 12 miles away. The point is, not a drop of water coming out of these
people's faucets comes from below the ground of this property or anyone around it. >> Fair enough. But you did still didn't answer where the water is coming from to fill the water main. >> Well, I I I think too that they're required to go into a utility services
agreement with utilities. That might be a better question for staff. >> Yeah, I have another question for staff related to that as well. Yes, whatever agreements missing in our application >> Pasco County Utilities as with Tampa Bay Water, that's a question for staff. But again, surface water wells, groundwater
well fields not adjacent to this site and desalination plants. Those are the exact sources from a drainage standpoint. Uh this is an interesting one where we're not actually sending any water downstream.
all the water is coming at us. Uh so it's a closed basin. We'll be designing to store a full 100-year uh flood in our property, not just from the water on our site, but from the water coming off adjacent properties at us. Um at this
stage in zoning, uh it's surprising the amount of geotechnical work that's been done just to ensure that uh you know, groundwater table depths, percolation rates. So, there's about a dozen inflow points from the neighbors properties into our property. Um, we've got a conceptual grading plan showing how
we're pulling in all that water and how we're sizing adequately for a 100redyear storm onto our property. I actually did look up uh Miss Bolton's property that's adjacent to the southwest corner. She was one of the uh I think the second speaker or third speaker. Yes, her house is sitting at about 20 elevation 20 and
she's got a little bowl sitting at about 17 right in her sideyard. So, uh, definitely a tough situation for for her property right there. But we're not in that bowl. We don't send water that way. Her water doesn't come towards us. Um, but I would be happy to talk to any of the residents about any flooding
concerns out there, just like we did at the four neighborhood meetings. That's always good data for our design, especially as we're taking water in from the surrounding areas. >> Just to clarify, your your pond volumes account for that entire closed basin that you identified. >> Yes, sir. Yep. Onsite and offsite. And we're being conservative. We were
educated by some of the residents that some of the drainage from the west that I was assuming, you know, doesn't even really get to us. But hey, I got to draw conservative lines on basin map. So, I'm taking in everything I seems like I should. Any further questions?
>> Any other questions on water? >> Yeah, I mean for for staff regarding the utilities. So, we used to get in our packet um you know, we I see where there's no objections from utilities department, but that's all we got. We used to have a a handout or attachment
in the packet that would actually show the available capacity of both portable and sewer water, where that capacity was at with and without the project. >> But they quit doing that. Now, all they do, and that comes with comp plan amendments, not
all they do is tell us how far it is to the nearest water man. What they haven't told us is where's the capacity coming from to fill that water man. >> Yeah, like I said, we used to see those numbers. So, I'm just trying to figure out why we're not seeing that anymore. I
mean, you know, this is a obviously an issue when we're in the middle of a drought. Uh, now granted, droughts come and go. You know, by the time this project comes online, we may be flush full of water for all we know due to a massive rainy season. But regardless,
you know, there the kind of capacity that is needed for these projects that comes through utilities that takes time to bring that capacity online, whether it's through additional wells or firing up a desalination plant to more capacity. So that's why I'd be
interested in seeing, you know, more of these numbers as opposed to There's no objection. >> What's amazing, and I'm not has nothing to do with this project, is if you recall in the summer of 2024,
we were in a drought and we were on water restrictions and we had members of the public asking the same questions. And then along came hurricanes Helen and Milton and we had record flooding. We never made it to phase three water
restrictions prior to those hurricanes. So that goes to show you how much water our area is actually using. We used up the water dumped upon us by those two hurricanes. And now we're in a worse
water situation than where we were before those two hurricanes hit us. I was remiss to note something which was there was a concern about a data processing center. We don't have any intention to do a data processing center in our industrial. Would be happy to add that to a
prohibited use. So I just wanted to add that to the record. I was reading my notes and realized I didn't address that. So Arma, how do you speak? would he speak to as far as compatibility with your surrounding area?
>> So again, you got a rural character area was set out as rural county specifically in 2006 said what was rural and what was not. This area has a res six and res three land uses. Our our density is about 2.5 units per acre. Um well below
those land uses as far as lot you heard a lot about lot size compatibility. Like I said, you look at other projects that have been approved and what their consistency is with larger lots and what what is consistent. We are actually exceeding between our 20 foot buffer and
100% opacity and existing vegetation being preserved because we did the grading plan already and supplementing the existing vegetation. So a real buffer and saving existing vegetation which people always ask can you save can you save can you save we answered that
question. So real buffers 20 feet instead of 10 um or 15 as the case may be. Looking at sing we did single story along our perimeters. Other clients have been asked to do that. They're like no that's unreasonable. Um so we but this
client agreed to it. We agreed to the lot sizes that we did larger lot sizes larger than the I can rattle off these other approvals for other projects. you know, smaller lot sizes adjacent to similar type similar type um
um homes and properties. So again, it's it's a balance. We've tried we tried to approach as a balance. We probably could have just come and just said, well, this other one was approved right here called Denton Place. You all recommend approval that the board approved it and here's what you found consistent. But we didn't do that.
We didn't stop there. I don't know if they had neighborhood meetings or not. I had four of them. You know, we did three of them and then a long pause and came back with a fourth one and came up with different things that we showed them. But in the end of the day, you know, not going to go away. It's the project's
not going to go away. It's got a land use. It's going to be developed. This development plan is a very, very, very good development plan against any plan that you see every day coming before you. It's a good development plan. We've spent time on it. We spent years on it.
Um, so that's my answer regarding the the compatibility is that we're we're not seeking the max here. We've come up with something very reasonable to balance and tried to really listen and change what we can change other than going
away. As I explained to the neighbors in those four meetings, we're not going to go away. Um but you know is there an opport there is an opportunity when you present something before you and somebody comes with a development plan that's a good development plan because if we go away somebody else comes back
with something else or the courts decide right so um I hope you see the effort that was put in to balance hope you recognize the fact that it has a land use on it we're following those land uses we're consistent with the comprehensive plan we're consistent with
the land development code we've met all the requirements we're exceeding all the requirements ments and I know it's difficult when people stand before you and you've had 19 people 19 people 18 people stand before you and say please don't do this I I understand but your
job is also to the fact that this property owner has rights as well and so I've tried to achieve the balance I've tried to really listen and do things in a in a very you know even today like okay yes we'll get the kids across um
kitten we'll do that. Yes, data processing concern. Yes, we happy to prohibit that use. We don't have any reason to do that. Um, so thank you. >> This this land looks obviously it looks
like mostly pasture land. Is that right? >> Yes. Yeah. I think it was probably harvested at some point. >> Like it's uh heavily wooded with probably lots of animals on that land. our adjacencies are I mean there's some good preservation along our where you
know where we're going to save existing vegetation we're pulling back our project 20 feet right so we're not going to grade into that 20 feet we're pulling that back so we can save that existing vegetation which is significant nothing better than what you see today and it not changing
and then making supplementing making it better is what we're what we're proposing and picking a lands picking the native native species so it it looks similar as opposed to what you know what the code requires. >> This might be more for staff bar, but
just while you're up here talking about access, I from what I'm reading in our land development code, this many units requires two access points. >> Two functional points. Yes. And we'd have two. >> Okay. There are two. I just saw the one. >> Yeah, we have two. If you look at the binding plan, the MPD plan, there's two arrow arrows. There's an arrow at the
spine road, and then there's an arrow along our western property boundary. Our western property boundary is adjacent to the county's ribs. Probably don't say that right, but it's a county facility. Um, and so we chose to put a road there
as opposed to somewhere else that might impact people. >> So would that road that so I see it now and it says access road dedicated to light industrial. Would that road be built all the way down to u >> talking about the upper left corner or the upper? >> We don't have we we have a conceptual
layout. So, I don't want to say exactly how we where we may how we may configure, but we certainly are anticipating having the two functional access points, but once you get back into the project, not having a final design, Joe would kind of get me kind of
crazy if we get too much more detail, but >> Right. No, I understand. >> But we'll but we understand that we have requirements for both emergency and the second functional access over 600 units. >> And I think Derek, you're probably getting to this earlier. just concerned with
>> emergency access to the southern portion all coming from the north. >> If response time already on kitten trail is 25 minutes, >> right? >> If it's they've got to go all the way to Denton and then down into this development to get to a fire or an emergency, that's probably even longer.
>> Um I know that on the agenda memo, we got no objection from fire, but I think from when we talked to them earlier or last year, they're more so looking at site plans, >> right? I don't know what how detailed their was at this. So I don't just maybe this is more and like I said this is
probably more first staff discussion but >> any commission members I we get into this emergency access all the time right we we follow the code neighbors get concerned we try to work with the neighbors >> but ultimately if you or the board determine that we need to have emergency
access we'll provide emergency access >> certainly >> so it's it's not a we're not fighting we're just trying to work >> yeah I understand the concern from the residents about it being potentially flipped into actual access at some point. So I don't know if there's any safeguards we can put around that through
>> there. We have we have them we went through this on Sackleson. You heard me talk about Sackle >> to guarantee it's only used for emergency access. >> We have a whole bunch of conditions that go with because Sackle had emergency access to Colony's all the same concerns. So and we the same dance you know we're like we're not we didn't we
proposed it neighbors were worried we didn't propose it then the board said we wanted it. So we have all all sorts of conditions that we can put on that if >> David what would be the I mean is there a lead restriction or a >> what kind of a safeguard can you put on that to guarantee it's only used into
perpetuity as emergency access? >> You can if you platt it as an emergency access it's almost impossible to change it. >> Yeah. >> So one of the residents mentioned one that was flipped. Was that not platted as an emergency access? I don't I'm not sure which one you're
talking about. The one that was flipped. >> There's a gentleman over there in the gray shirt that mentioned it. It was um forget what project he mentioned. >> I I don't know what one that was flipped. I mean, there have been some that we've intentionally written the condition that said it could be flipped
in the future. There have Barbara and I have worked on some of those in the said if the roads ever upgraded in the future, we can convert it to a full access. But we've intentionally done that. I'm I'm not aware of one where we've platted it as an emergency access and then
flipped it later. I mean, if it's it's if it's platted as an emergency access, I think it's going to be very difficult to change that after the fact. >> What would be the process to do that? >> We'll write a condition of approval.
>> No, no. I'm saying if it were platted as an emergency access and one wanted to change that, if a board wanted to change that, what process would the board have to do? >> I suppose it would be some kind of vacation of the plat.
I mean, I'm not going to tell you that it can never be done, but it would be difficult to do. >> Nonetheless, there's a process by which it could be done. Anything could be done. >> I mean
>> I mean >> Well, you say it's difficult. It's difficult. What I'm getting at is it takes three three out of five votes, right? >> The the problem is if if the board really wanted to do something bad enough, could they condemn the land? And
I mean, if there was think if the board really wanted to do something bad enough, they could condemn it. >> I mean, so that's why I kept saying if you >> there's no way to fully >> right. If you really wanted to do something, there's a way to to do it >> even the way this is proposed.
>> So, but I don't see it be I see it seems unlikely that if we've platted as an emergency access that we're going to come in and then just condemn it later and condemn it and >> that's why we access >> that's why we put the park there because there's no roads down there. Make people
feel more comfortable. the fact the way the the land design is, it's not designed where it would lend itself to becoming something else, >> right? >> But once and that's the concern you hear, you know, that once there is an emergency access, then there's that
potential that it can change. And so that's the what I've heard over all the 31 years or whatever it is I've been doing this. That's the pros and the cons. And that's why this was intentional. requested that we put our passive park down there so that there there isn't a land design
that there's roads heading that way that someday may become >> Yeah. But I want functional access. >> Even if they did this >> where they show no access at all, >> could the county 20 years from now come in and condemn that, make it a full access? >> Sure. >> Absolutely.
>> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. >> So nothing's permanent. >> That's >> not even conservation easements. can reverse a conservation unit, too. >> Yeah. But I mean, if you had an emergency in the southern end of that neighborhood, getting emergency vehicles
back there quickly or, you know, if there was a accident completely blocking Denton, for example, or even worst case scenario, you have a brush fire that's closed off Denton and it's threatening the neighborhood. You know, being able to get out in the backside would be important. I think >> we are fine either way and we can work on
>> I know >> conditions. We can put work on conditions either way to provide as much certainty and tie everybody's hand as much as we can. >> Thank you. >> So, is there somebody on staff that can talk to water available?
>> I'm sorry, sir. You can't unless you're called left. looks like a toughs. >> It's not important. I I don't need I don't particularly need that answer. Mine's more of a rhetorical question. I want to know how you reconcile that with
the public that you can't have a glass of water, but you can build 832 homes. Well, I think if it it would be good if we can just hear how that is determined by utilities because >> I agree because again, we're missing that. I'd like to see that portion of
our agenda memo added back in where we see actual gallons of capacity. >> Well, and I think it's probably tied my guess is it's tied to the utility service agreement. That's when they're going to have to make that determination if they can even make that agreement. But I just for our benefit and public the tiers of the benefit I thought I
wouldn't mind hearing that process from utilities just to understand it better if that's important for you all to make a decision. You know we don't have to have this happen today. We can come back next month. You all can get the
utilities department can be here. They can be prepared to present to you and to explain that to you all. Again, we're not we're not trying to shove anything down. I mean, I know it's I know the neighbors would disagree, but if that's, you know, information you'd like to have, >> we can we happy to continue to uh so
that utilities can be here and actually present that to you. And any other questions that you want follow up on that you haven't heard from today? >> I mean, I think it's more of a and it's more of a global question than even just this project question. >> Project specific question. I think it
>> that might be something we'd like to know from utilities just and globally but okay test I know it's I know the dy plant u is operating at a tiny fraction of its capacity but it takes time to bring
those things online >> temp water's done an extensive capital improvement plan to bring on more sources of water and so there's a But they're not here right now. >> But they're not here right now. Exactly. So, u >> Well, are there any more questions the
applicant or you want to >> take the applicant suggestion and continue it or do you want what you want to do? >> I think I think they're working on getting somebody at utilities on right now. is believe a tough Hannah is on. If you can
hear us. >> Hey, can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Yes, I can. >> Hi, Hannah with Pasco County Utilities. Uh, sorry to join late, but uh the question by Mr. Moody. Correct.
>> Yes. >> Can you can you pose a question again? >> I'm asking how I reconcile to the public that one cannot go in a restaurant and get a glass of water without specifically asking for it because we're on phase three water restrictions. But
there's not a problem with building 832 new homes that will demand 100 gallons per day per person for the next hundred years. So we are required to provide uh the water supply the pole
uh for future growth and we continue to provide for the growth all the time and also we have water supply provided by Kimber water which for guaranteed water supply as well.
We used to do that. I heard that you talked about you wanted to see the form back showing the uh the the capacity and uh that we can meet that capacity. We are we can do that but some time back we
we were told not to continue to do that. Um it is we are building our system to meet the to meet the demand and we cannot turn growth for that. The entire
area is under uh stage three. So we have to be responsible while we use the water responsibly. We have to be responsible too for using that water. Te, can you elaborate on the requirement
to provide water for growth and not being able to or deny growth because Yeah. >> Yeah. If if you come and tell me that you have 800 plus units and uh can you meet that or not? I will tell you yes I
can meet that because we're building the water system uh to meet that already and we will actually go everywhere to upsize the lines to uh to meet the demand.
So the water the water supply our ability to water supply will meet the the demand. We will pro we will always provide you with the availability of water.
It is our responsibility to do that. >> So, John, I'm not sure that answers your question. >> No, I appreciate that. That's what a TE needs to do. >> There's no need to beat that horse.
>> Yeah. Well, again, this it could take three, five years for this project to come online anyway. So, it's that point may be in a completely different situation water-wise. But, >> well, but to my point, you saw how
quickly we went from record flood to record drought. >> Yep. It could get worse, too. >> So, I I can give you a little example of where we can actually connect our lines to surf which and loop
our lines as well which is we have a line on Hudson and we have a line on 52 and we can connect these two lines with a large line to make sure that we're meeting actually the demand of the area uh
and also continue to have water quality in the system as We plug in all these developments into our model and we have a master a water master plan that we just finished
that included all these developments. So, what's the pleasure of the board? >> I mean, I still have some reservations about the the density in general. I understand that um we're below res 3 and pretty much it's pretty much a sea of
res three around there. This one little pocket of res six. uh future land use is, you know, so this is being built well below that and obviously it's even below the res three that's surrounding it, but it's pretty
close to R1 and um it's one of those situations. We had we had a um a project like this not too long ago um where we talked about yes, this is probably good, but I don't know if it's good now. it's whether or not that the
area is mature enough, you know, in terms my my concerns are infrastructure u in terms of roads and water and all the other stuff that we just been talking about. So, you know, should it be developed? Probably. I mean, it's a it's a it's
bare pasture. It's not really we wouldn't be displacing a lot of endangered animals or cutting down a bunch of big pretty trees. But at the same time, this density, I mean, I I personally have some issues with it, but
that's just that's just me. >> Well, I mean, I I think to that point and some of the residents point, none of us are thrilled to see country disappear and pass it. We've all been here a long time and and love that part of the county as well. Same perspectives,
Barbara mentioned, they do have an entitlement here um >> with the future land use. So, we've got a We get we get to balance all that and hopefully make a recommendation of our making this as best we can but
kind of have a lot of limits on what we can >> Well, I I just I just think sometimes simply because we made a decision some years ago that this property should be R six for example.
You know, how can we know? >> I think we have to make current decisions at the current present time. And I totally understand and agree that if you're a property owner, you you certain property rights, paying taxes on
that property. You've had it for maybe you've had it for 50 years. I don't know how long this person's own property. And uh probably if any individual person in this room owned this property, they'd be
making that same same argument. However, for some reason, I just don't feel comfortable with putting 800 homes in this particular area at this particular time. And
you know, so my philosophy has always been The land owner has rights. That doesn't mean that the land owner can do anything they want with the property. They still have to
conform and I think we have an obligation to consider the people that are already there living around that area. So >> the time is I just feel uncomfortable,
you know. In a sense, I you know, I think they have the right to the to build on the property. I'm just not sure that they have the right or that we should give them the right to build laid down.
>> That's kind of where I'm at. I think the density is a little a little heavy. The comp plan does indicate that at no time are you absolutely entitled to the maximum density that the property will yield. >> I know and and many many times Miss Well
has come here and she's you know voluntarily tried to rightsize the property I'll say you know and made some concessions and I think she's trying to do the same thing on this one but at the same time she's
She also has a responsibility to her client. >> Sure. >> Mhm. >> So, but ultimately we're the ones that have to decide whether it's the right project at the right time. >> Well, we get to recommend whether or not
it's the right project. >> It's not always an easy decision. >> I'm in I'm I think I'm in the same place you are. A couple of thoughts. One, I recognize that every property owner has rights to do things on their property,
whether it's build a house on their lot or build a subdivision on their large tract. But there's a couple of things. One, the density, the claim of density is 2.5
dwelling units to the acre. I'll tell you that it's 50% higher because that's based on the entire acreage of the parcel. If you go look at what is the acreage of the res six area, you actually get a density of about three
and a half dwelling units to the acre first of all. So it's it's it's higher. I don't think Maybe for purposes of the law and land use law. Can we go back to the aerial photo with
the green rural character area? I don't think it's reasonable to tell people. I don't care what the comp plan says that if you live in the green area, you're rural, but if you live outside that green area, you're
not rural. Well, I drive down Kitten Trail. And by the way, I went and looked in the Our Comp plan doesn't actually have a definition of rural. So, but I know rural when I see it. It's just kind of like the the Supreme
Court, you know, they tried to define what pornography was. They didn't have a definition of it, but they knew what it was when they saw it. That's the way I know what rural is. >> And I think if you drive down Kitten Trail, nobody's going to argue that anything on Kitten Trail is urban andor
suburban. It's pretty rural. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Even if you have this demarcation line at the edge of what's defined as rural according to the green blob and what's not, you still have to have transition. So let's say you you say okay that's
where rural ends which I don't know who is who has the ability to say that but if let's say you do say that you still need some transition space in between the two. You can't put high density right up and next to that dear demarcation line. The other thing that
struck me that came from I think it was Mr. Low that said it and I actually pulled up my calculator to check the math. The largest lot and we're we're sold this project as if we're getting
something great, right? Because now they've they've gotten us used to these little 4,000 square foot and 3200 square foot lots that we've all figured out we don't need. And now we're being sold, hoy, look, you can have luxury will give you 7,000 square foot lot.
>> It's not even a quarter acre, >> right? >> Exactly. Not even a quarter acre. And to Mr. Lowe's point, you can fit 62.2 of those 7 70 by 100 lots in the average 10acre track that
abutts to this property. That's not compatible. I don't have a problem if the applicant wants to come back in here. And I actually liked the one suggestion of the one neighbor that suggested they should be 1acre lots.
That would seem that's much more dense than what is around. But at least it somewhat some rural preserving the rural character even though the somebody
somebody in 2006 decided this is rural but over here it's not. I'm not quite sure how you can look at the aerial photograph or the map and say this is rural but this is not. Maybe that person never drove down Kitten Trail. They never left their office at the county building to go see
what was down there. But that's that's what I think. I I just don't think that whether they be 40 foot lots, 50 foot lots, or 70 foot lots is compatible with 10 acre lots. And even the smallest lot I saw that I was
quickly clicking around was.9 >> acres. 7 was one. But nonetheless, they're in a neighborhood where the vast majority of the surrounding land is on larger
tracks and the people do have horses. In fact, as you go out, I'm sorry now because I'm getting into the rural character area after you go around the bend and you're headed up there towards East Road there, there is the most
beautiful horse farm out there. And that is amazing. And like I said, I actually got a telephone call from one of the county commissioners one day that was her first time driving out there who was amazed at what the character of this particular area is.
I'd like to I don't want to make a motion to deny it. I think they have the right to develop their property. I'd like to see them come back with a proposal that respects their neighbors, not just
trying to milk every last dollar out OF >> We'll take a continuence and consider what you guys are saying and come back >> ju just to help the I mean maybe to help the applicant here on this parcel. I mean I know there's reference in this He does butt right up to the kitten trail
lots in these larger lots. Right on the other side of Denton Avenue, you've got smaller lots. This project access is off of Denton. Is there I mean is there a buffer per se that maybe would make you more comfortable? >> You bring up a good point. I
at the outset of the hearing I asked I asked what was the genesis of this property becoming res six. It's in a sea of res 3. This didn't make sense to me.
>> It I finally figured it out. At least I think I figured it out. >> And this had to do it has to do with transition of density in that at some point Pasco County came
and built its ribs out here in this rural whether defined as rural or not area. The ribs. Ribs. as rapid infiltration basins. That's an industrial type use. So that
makes sense to me why then the land use was changed to industrial immediately adjacent to the ribs and then the res six was the transition from industrial back to resz 3. I think there was some
method to the madness. But as Mr. Gray said this was a decision made two decades ago and I'm not sure it fits with today. To Jaime's point, I think I might agree with you Jamie that maybe
the higher density up closer to Denton with lesser density less and less density as I get down there towards Kitten and along Mattis. That's there might be some sense in that.
So, I think uh the applicant has made a suggestion. Might be a good one. >> I'll move we continue. >> Do we want to do a date or date uncertain or >> Well, let's let's do a month.
>> Okay. >> We can always do it go from there, but give us a chance to listen to what we've heard and figure out what we do tomorrow. So, if we can be for a month, that would be great. No, I I have nothing additional to add other than I mean I struggle with this one too for all the same reasons that
you guys do. I would tend to lean towards um approval. If if a suggestion like that, you know, phasing of in intensity kind of across a property came along, I think I would
tend to lean towards approval or something like that, but um nothing further than that. Well, we do have a motion. Do we have a second for purposes of discussion? >> Second. >> So, we have a motion and a second. So,
now do we have further discussion? >> So, Barbara, when you come back, can you bring that um added condition for the enhanced crosswalk for >> we'll update the conditions and the data center? >> Thank you. prohibition >> guidance for the applicant on
>> whether you want them to have emergency access to kids or not. >> I mean I I think we >> I mean is it >> I think it should be there. >> Yeah. I don't know if additional input from fire is appropriate now or not if it's more appropriate for the >> bring bring it back. I mean
>> for the site plan portion >> again I understand the resident's concern that it could be flipped but you know as Mr. Goldstein pointed out that it's very very difficult and nothing's impossible anyway. So >> yeah,
>> I think a gated emergency access makes some sense. I >> my first thought was no, >> leave that as the park there. But I agree. If there's a fire on the south end of that project or if somebody's having a heart attack or a stroke on the
south end of that project, >> they probably ain't going to make it by the time EMS gets to them and then gets them back goes all the way down to the south, then goes all the way back to the north to get back out. >> That's a long way. I think just to clarify for everybody here that
emergency access only is controlled by a gate that only emergency personnel can open, not just anybody else. >> And then I mean I just say that you know that whether or not you know it
there's still a demand for equestrian size lots. >> We don't have a big supply of that available. Well, the reason I asked for input on the issue is because if you want them to have emergency access, it's going to affect their plan. >> I there won't be a park there like most
likely. >> Correct. Yeah, we understand that. >> Well, you probably design a park around the access, but >> you could not. >> If you go look at the parcel maps, okay, the the parcel was secured for the
purposes of access. It's not it wasn't that parcel was secured for the purposes of getting access from kitten to that property because that 800 plus acres that is the former hay farm is a parcel that did not
go all the way to Kitten Trail. So, >> right. Right. >> But I'd encourage you to think about, you know, what's the character of that area? These are people with horses and goats and
>> yeah, >> you know, some nice upscale equestrian stuff. I bet they're not going to have a bunch of people objecting to. >> That's why I tend to agree with you, Mr. Moody, with the uh, you know, closer to the acre lots as opposed to trying to just concentrate lower density towards
the edges or the you the south and the east and the west. Um, you know, I don't know if I couldn't answer this question, but my guess is there's still probably some profit profit available to the developer. >> The problem is we've become accustomed
now to 3,200 square foot lots, right? We we actually had Mr. Hobby come in here when we were had the 4G ranch and said he was going to have executive home sites and they were going to be 10,000 square feet. I got quoted in the Tampa Bay Times and said, "I never thought I'd
live so long to find out that 10,000 square feet is an executive home site. A quarter of an acre. Come on. Get one of those in Regency Park." All right. So, we have a motion. We have
a second. Any any further discussion? This >> for one month? >> Yes. Okay. >> All right. No, no more discussion. All in favor signify by saying I. >> I like sign. >> Thank you.
>> That's it. >> Motion to adjourn. Is that where we're at? >> Second. >> Yeah, we're out of here. Hi. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Thought I was I thought I was the motion for a bathroom break.
>> 100% just go easy, huh? >> Yeah. >> But I thought surely the train will take a break after public comment, but he didn't. >> Is that Arnold Farmer catching up? >> That's certainly did. I'll take a
jalapeno.