you're welcome Okay Tonight's meeting is Pumpkin Lakes Planning Board for March 18 2025 Following is the agenda for the meeting to be held in municipal building 25 Linux Avenue on March 18 2025
beginning at 7:30 Formal written advance notice is required by NJSA 104-1 at SEC as a provider of this meeting at least 48 hours in advance of today given the time date and location and to the extent of the time the agenda of this meeting such
notice stated action may or not may not be taken The notice was one posted on the board outside the office of municipal clerk reserved for this and other similar announcements two provided to suburban trends the newspaper designated by the burough council to receive such notices and three file with
B clerk Please stand for the pledge of allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for
all Welcome home astronauts Yes very hot stuff Well done That was cool Okay we're not having any local office because we did that last time We have approval of bills for college engineering Roll call I'm sorry Oh I'm sorry Yeah we'll call
Okay Mr Simone here Mr Otto here Mr Coast here Mr Dr Pendexter here Mr Bulby here Uh Mayor Sarah will not be present Uh
Councilwoman Gilbert here Uh Mr BMA here Mr Foster Okay Uh Andy Brewer And there will not be any engineer planners for this meeting tonight Okay Thank you Uh minutes regular
meeting February 18 2025 And you all had a chance to review it yes So what is your pleasure motion to approve Second Motion to approve and second Did anyone have any comment or discussion on the minutes [Music]
that was trust You got Yep Okay Okay Please Uh Mr Simone Yes Mr Otto Yes Mr Trro Yes Dr Pender Yes Mr Baldby Yes
Uh Councilwoman Kilberg yes Uh Mr Hudma yes Okay Okay Approval of bills So this is something new Uh we're being asked to um we have to take a vote on this of some kind or
just a what are they looking for vote A vote Okay So College of Engineering and Design Professional Services Yeah Um I want to just make sure that that we know what project it's from So um when you
see a uh an invoice 25366 So this is for February's bills for 714 720 Hamburg term Pike which has not come to the board yet And [Music]
Uh 7:35 Hamburg turnpike engineers were reviewing documents and professional services Okay Now here's my concern We're being asked to approve a bill that was submitted on an application we haven't heard So we know nothing about what they
did or how they did it or for what reason And yet we have to approve it I have to I need to see the bill Yeah I have a problem with that Okay You can't see a number We got to see the actual bill I I don't I'm preferring not to take a vote on that And you can tell Mike that that's the
problem That's right Members here Oh I don't think you'll have I don't think they'll have a problem at all The idea of this is this is they the the engineers and me and the planners all are retained by you and do work for you Yes Somebody else cuts the check So they
are not really revealing as you're desiring here You want to see what was done So the person that's writing the check really has to rely on you to say yes that's legitimate work falls within within the scope of what they've obtained for These are all coming out of escrow not not the planning board is
escrow for these accounts Y all those things and they should be approved That's completely legitimate That's I think that's the goal here And but you're absolutely right You shouldn't I don't think any of you should be voting on approving a bill that you don't know what was done to And in the past it's been the chairman of of the board who
has approved them So it didn't look to nobody but every every meeting con presented me with bills that I looked at Y but then just they would like everybody to like do it as a whole to do it Okay I understand that But obviously nobody should be voting on something Well this is new So we'll get the
procedures down and then for next month to wait a month because we'll have to have it Um so okay approval goes on hold Perfect Thanks Bill for being
that It's got your name on itself Oh my god You are on TV Enjoy the laugh people [Music] So there was a few added uh correspondence as the agenda had changed
and I did um give you all copies of the uh ordinance that was included in tonight's agenda Okay So you have the memo from those grant from Riverdale Those were all emailed to you Those first three were emailed to you the ones
following it in your hands uh for their north pump and turn pipe redevelopment plan Next one from Liz from Wayne for their ordinance for land redevelopment Uh third one's letter from Bernick That's a freshwater wetland
permit with the sorry just are you going to continue on that just Yeah Okay the the West Lennox Avenue Bridge which is right down here by Max and the bridge at Hersfield are being replaced by the county and so they need the permitting to have that done and it's in design I
don't know if the U Hersfield is completed on design yet but that's supposed to go first and then this one will go second and the other way around I'm sorry I thought this one goes first Well Mike told me the other way around but whichever one it doesn't make a
difference whatever one gets done first They were both done around the same time so they both need to be replaced Did you have a comment you wanted to make about that though yeah it talks about um obviously this is getting a wetlands permit for them to do the the work right in along the river Um but they also
mentioned about having to bring in a minor amount of fill to uh for regrading to make the approach to the bridges uh smooth and so forth And if we have the ability to uh require that they bring in certified clean fill uh I'd prefer that
we do that somehow Um I know it's not a site remediation program uh project but since this is town property you don't want them bringing in anything from I don't know pumping planes crossing or wherever or from some highway project down in Patterson or
something like that uh if if they can show that it's certified clean from the origin or sampling per D requirements to show that it's clean I think that would be best interest of the we can send that recommendation to the administrator and then he can follow it
up with the county If you need help on that just let me know Okay Um speaking of the chronic Oh actually it's raining What's going on with that landfill down there the thing
that the mountain gets higher and higher Is that even legal this lion has no opinion about that I'm sure they're trying to close it I think the trying to close them down So So why can't they guess it's in the courts i have no idea And they can't put an
injunction on that to stop from adding to it It's got to be twice the size that it was in September It was closed down for a while for a while and now they have dozen 15 dump trucks parked there every night and and but with all of the
regulations they they stop projects cold in our town here I mean there's many times they've actually we have it stop being in the river when we were doing cleanup cuz the EP said so they can't force that That's crazy Well they
have if you go around the jug handle that comes out North Pton turnpike in 23 Mhm If you go around that jug handle table of leaf piles right there next to the river The the town dumps leaves there and stockpiles leaves It's right next to the
river It's in the floodway They're not being very good stewards They can do whatever they want I guess Okay I just was curious since you mentioned it Another memo from those um amending the downtown redevelopment plan
190-84 Another one from Liz Soy means 2512 authorizing tax exemption and payment in L of taxes in um in connection with the re redevelopment plan for block 2400 lot
one and an assessment and of taxes for 61 QF Another one from raising ordinance amending chapter 7 section 7:30 turns prohibited prohibiting left turns between 4 and 6 p.m uh into the uh car
wash on the left And lastly uh an ordinance amending the specific penalty for the violation of parking prohibition no removal That's a lot of
resolutions ordinances rather guys been busy Lisa yes [Music] Okay There are no there's nothing on the agenda tonight in the way of applications There's no conceptuals No one has come back to do anything um as
far as I know So there new and unfinished visits There's nothing also So we'll have public discussion and then um uh comments by the board as well So opening to the public session where there are no people so I'll close it
right away and new I mean public discussion is over so our discussion you want to talk about the uh open space yeah I I as you know I'm now uh the leazison to the open space committee and I I met with Mike Shakatano who I
understand is works with Karen Murphy on open space issues and Mike took me down to show me um the garage as they call it Hershe Park Um first time I'd ever been in that I thought all the discussion that they they had at the open space was regarding the fieldhouse and not the
garage But uh anyway to sum things up uh they submitted two plans to D uh for renovation of the fieldhouse Two of them have been turned down Uh they got recommendations back from D So they're revising their their plans They're going to resubmit it and hopefully they'll get
approved Uh the only other thing was playground equipment which has been ordered and is 6 weeks out and when that comes in they'll they'll put it in it Thank you Okay Lisa did you have anything no not tonight
Nope No Fine Sean No Okay Uh the only I'll mention is I went to the council meeting uh last week Uh they had the formal second reading of the um property on 61
Avenue the old gas station and there was two parts to that One is for the zoning variances and one is for the um pilot approval Um if I'm mis misstating anything just jump in So the council
considered both and they ended up approving both uh with one exception on the variances I believe Um they had a lot of discussion about it They u relied on the planning board's
comments We did bring up uh they did bring up and there was public comment on the issue of the uh studio apartment and um the applicant indicated they are very likely to get the extra parking places
um from the county So they probably will go with a higher number of homes or uh rentals and um it seems like um that that'll be ready to come to the planning board for its formal site plan Uh this was a process because the
redevelopment's involved or it goes redevelopment and then goes to the council then it goes to the planning board then it goes back to the council and it comes back to the planning board and that's the end of it Right Hopefully Hopefully except for permitting So there's a a lot has gone on and a lot to
finish but um uh the applicant was uh pleased with the council's decisions and uh Carly we think we're going to see that next month or we don't know if they'll be ready No I haven't got anything yet Okay Now maybe Andy could help with this The There were several
items listed that I call variances Other people have different names for them You know one of them was the height one of them was the the setbacks front yard setback sideyard setback all that You know they were all listed and what we were told last month is this is an all
or nothing deal You know when the council approves it they're approving everything or you know like they can't pick and choose Last night at another meeting that I was at I was told by another council member and a former council member that what was approved at
the council meeting was only the height and the no retail on the first floor Everything else is still an open issue I don't know about that Well from what I understand it comes back to the planning board and then that's where you go through the other one So I think it was
approved by the council The only two that you that the planning board doesn't have anything to do with is the height and the no retail and the no retail All the other ones you get to decide So like if you decide that you know the setback isn't right you can say no to that But I
think that's after our I will let me let me address up to the point where it came here in the ordinance One of the goals of redevelopment and the redevelopment plan and I hate using that word because that's the redevelopment ordinance We all know that
the redevelopment ordinance for the area provides that there's only limited ability for an applicant to seek variances There are some but they're very limited And what that does is that maintains control of redevelopment in the governing body So the governing body
sets that zoning redevelopment plan and any variations from it this board really can't do much they've they've maintained that authority uh and so if you want it to vary from it it has you have to change the plan So become a conforming application So it went through the
redevelopment agency and they looked at the plans that they want to submit and then they had the planner and their and the applicants planner and engineer go through and say "Okay if we submitted this site plan we're going to need these seven variances and we can't get them we
have to change the plan so it becomes conforming So they drafted an ordinance to amend the redevelopment plan to change those regulations So it was a conforming application That was the goal and the purpose So this board will not be considering variances on any of those
issues because it's now so that I didn't see what was actually passed I don't know if they amended it That was the goal That was how it was drafted originally was to be that we did amend the redevelopment plan That's what that ordinance is for That's what it was for amended to make it a
conforming opinion Yes So but it does come back here just because the fire department has to look at all of that stuff comes from comes back to the site plan Oh yeah You do your site plan functions It has to come here for a site removal And yes safety
It always get safety circulation those things because there's always stuff that isn't thought about Oh that's too close to the fence There's no way that'll work There's there's always those things Yes That that um the municipal land use law and the redevelopment laws always make it clear They always have to come get
some money from the board Yes And we can't for example decide that four stories is too much We want to allow three conforming application And the only thing I think that could change is that right now they're they're hoping that they get those eight spots and they
say that they should but they can't give them something they don't have yet You know that the county project hasn't been built yet So you know if something happens and they don't get those eight spots they have to go down to I think it's in their
plan just It's preset though You can do this without them You can do this with them So whatever the decision there 17 or 23 something like that Yeah that's the difference Yeah And if they don't get the spots the 23 is off the
table But again we don't get to choose that We get to do site plan stuff How's the timing going to between the two projects will they be able to make that decision before the one's actually built what two projects well they're getting eight spots from the county Yeah They won't come They won't come to this board
until they know they have the aid from the county Okay If because it would be foolish for them to come and then have to amend it again So they're going to work to get that submit I would assume that' be the best time to submit the application once they know exactly what they're going to do So once the application is received we'll have a
letter from Pay County with the parking We'll have the plans that goes through callers go through the review So for anybody that's new you will see I will send you the application and you'll see all the all the um the fire department
the MUA you'll see all those letters of what their decision is Okay and you'll see all that So that's you know so that's what the planning board's next step is Only I'm just explaining it because I know she's you know she has never seen the application It's good
that we hash it all anyway because there's there's defined responsibilities and neither the council or the development can cross ours and we can't cross theirs So it has to be done in the succession that it was done and then
ours is the final set whenever whenever we're done with it then that's that takes care of all of these things unless we have problems with something on our on our um hearing So assuming that they've got no problems at that point
then that becomes fine Yeah Um that's your vote But you'll see everything come through beforehand One of the things I should note um for those that weren't at the meeting it's interesting Pilots work in a in a it's an odd thing It's payment of taxes So
rather and this is also for guys as well when when a pilot is is uh prepared it's basically saying that well we're not going to pay the regular taxes We're going to pay this payment It's fixed for whatever the pilot arrangement is So the
number of years the amount per year is put into like a like a mortgage I guess right it's locked up It's an agreement that um it has to be over 10% and few other rules but yes it's it's agreed upon amount for the length of time It could be up to 30 years So if if the
project stay foul as it is right now um the taxes are I think what they say six something $6,000 a year something like that And um it would be obviously worthless to the town as far as income
And if we did a there was a big discussion about 20-year pilot versus 30-year pilot And the big discussion on that was which is better for the town and what comfort what comfort level does the council have between the 20 and the 30 year and there were some proponents
of the 20 year and some proponents of the 30-year but they had a very good presentation by a member that they brought in u you know who Phoenix and he did a really nice presentation about how that works and what it turns out to is by going with
the 30-year pilot the total cost the amount of money that the borrow is going to get is $2.5 million over those 30 years as compared to less than half that if it was 20 years So it and of course next to
nothing if nothing is done So there was a there's an awful lot of um incentive in this particular project small project still a lot of money over 30 years $2.5 million It'll help a lot with our taxes And that's why these larger buildings that are being built are so
important Whatever you can get approved under a pilot becomes a a value that the burrow takes advantage of 100% of the taxes that we pay get split up by town county and school system and a couple of the minor
ones So of that the bureau keeps about a quarter It's a little bit more I think but it's about a quarter It's like 25 No it's 25% 25% So out of $1,000 that you pay $ 250 goes to the town maybe 220 goes to the county and then everything
else goes to the school So out of $1,000 we spend $ 250 here with the pilot and um the redevelopment process we get 95% the borrow of that money and 5% goes to the
county So all of a sudden that money that we would have been getting 25% of we now get 95% of the care you have to take is that you don't because you're taking money from the school and the county You can't overload the school without some kind of
dealing with that issue So I think what would happen if it and most of these projects we're proving are not high school level projects It's been proven through many studies Uh they're token amounts right the apartments that workers did a study in Chicago Typically
the the apartments that develop here don't generate a lot of school age kids It's a rule It's a it's not a hard and fast It's a general rule Statistically they don't based on studies Yes Of of real life of real Yeah after the fact So what it comes down to is the extra money
that we're going to keep is not something we're taking from the school because they still get their full share of the base You know the school gets paid first before anything else right it's that what this does what a pilot
does is put the revenue that comes into the town goes into the town's bank account Doesn't have to go to the school It's kind of segregated out but the school still submits a bill and gets paid It's just if you had 1,000
um pieces of property all pay taxes and the normal ordinary taxes and you have them one pile So you have 999 Now what happens is the tax assessments to the school comes up with a bill and you have to assess properties in order to pay all your bills that's
going to get paid by 99 the assessments on 999 pieces of property not the one that is exempt that's going to pay some cash that goes into a separate account so as long as in Phoenix advisors is I I've worked with them before in other towns they're very good at looking at things
like this so you look at your school system and look at cost that might be generated study being one other ones you look at all right their school system if it's going to be it's going to be for you know kids from uh grade 1 to six we but and talk to the school system Now we
have all of our you know one through six schools still have five seats So you're not you're not going to be creating another need for another teacher for another class There's no real cost there They go through that analysis to make sure that what you're getting that goes into the separate account is at or above
any additional cost that would be imposed upon the town by this development That's that's really the break even You want to make sure Phoenix is very they're very good at doing that analysis That's that's the analysis in a nutshell that you should do for for a and I would assume that if if they're
looking at a say 20 year versus 30 year the town from their perspective they would look at yes obviously right now the taxes are six grand or whatever but over a 10year period 20 years in the future what would that tax revenue be
and still try to make it as favorable for the town as opposed to leaving you know a very large chunk of money in potential taxes Yeah you make assumptions on what's going to go up at what rate That that is part of it Yeah absolutely It's a very
interesting way of helping the brows and towns to u have the extra money in the town to help with the taxes cuz we're getting mail by the state by the federal government by the county by the school and our own And so it's a way of helping
to maintain a little more stability And as long as you don't go crazy with things it's good Um the other thing I note that is uh there's a lot of um multi- word this
properly many people houses in town And those many peopleled houses produce more kids than these apartments do So you may find that a typical 30 years ago a typical one family home got two kids maybe had three and um now you find out
that that one family home may have six or seven kids because there's more than one family living there So I think you see more impact on the school system from that unknown than we do on something that's known like this because
that never gets picked up It's almost like having a multif family house in a single family zone So I think that does more uh impact the school but these things do Any questions i mean this is just
good for understanding how things are going Um we have two pilots that are in effect right now Three I think right several We have um the one side We have one car 25 monarchy which is about a firehouse and then we have the one
that's in progress with um uh the big project and then there's another one in effect yet right Hamburg There's one on Hamburg Oh yeah on Hamburg That's right one Yeah that's a small one Right So those are all actually working towards
helping 525 doesn't have a plan I don't think 525 has a I thought it was Yes The one by the firehouse I think that Yes Yeah Yeah they did That was cuz the the point about that it wasn't a complete rebuild So you have to
take into account the improvements that are put in with the Yes Lol Any any other questions about that process i'll ask a dumb question that maybe There are no dumb questions people but
um it it seems like the 30-year pilot has a lot more money than the the 20-year pilot and it seems like that's kind of a no-brainer for the town It's also a no-brainer that we would want to have more money coming into the town than not which is why we look for these
pilot type programs The only question is um if it's so clear that you get so much more money with the 30-year than with the 20-year then what is the argument for the shorter term is it just timing of the cash flow is it just getting in quicker um I'm wondering if you have any
information on that I think it's just preference right like I mean pilots were not designed um as benefits to municipalities on their cash flow That is a byproduct of it what they are So I'm going to get like a big like 50,000
view of them Um there's this understanding you know properties get run down they need to be redeveloped or you know lots of different words we have for it It's because the regular zoning isn't working And so that's why redevelopment exists And you can kind of negotiate you can change the zoning you
can do things sometimes that doesn't even help So what the legislature did is create fin you know financial agreements or payment rule of taxes which allows you to give financial a financial assistance to a property by changing the tax structure So that's what it is So
it's it it is a it is designed to to as another tool to offer downtrodden properties to to to get to make them more appealing to a redeveloper Exactly they so be you know just changing the zoning is enough because there's some other financial hold that this property
has That's what it's designed for and just changes the tax structure So it's no longer taxes It is this agreed upon amount that you do and the relative benefit over 10 15 30 years is is mostly a function of negotiating what it's
going to be and taking into account All right 30 years from now the normal taxes would be X as opposed to 20 years It'll be something less than that The difference that they're paying by assuming that the the rents are going to go up 2% a year It kind of grows at the
end There's just a there are a lot of variables It's really just negotiate because you can um there is a you have the way you set the end of the service charge is it has to be a minimum of 10% of the revenue that you bring in It can be 11 it can be
28% Essentially you have to negotiate what you know the amount that this that they'll still invest by paying a certain percentage of their annual gross revenue And the the reason it is more beneficial for years 20 or 30 is because that's the
the numbers that Phoenix said this project can afford that So let's ch let's let's charge them 14% or 13% in those years I didn't see the agreement but that's what it is It's a a byproduct of negotiating a good deal at the end of
the at the end of the the last last 10 years Okay It also sets a fixed amount So they know at the at the project that this is going to be their expense There's no much to sell It's much easier to sell And so you basically have you
basically have a fixed payment like the mortgage would be where every month is going to be this amount of money It's predetermined And the town also has a fixed amount of money coming in So it kind of makes life a little easier all around there is a financial incentive to
the project owner to get the pilot and there's a an incentive for the borrow to give the pilot So it it kind of helps as the attorney said it it kind of makes the project doable where you know without that it may never
get done I and I wish we could get a few more buildings in this town to go through this We have some very dilapidated buildings that are from the firefighters perspective that are very risky and u I wish there was a way we could do something with them but you
know we're not the property owners I think a lot of times the 20 versus the 30 is that um people need financing for this So if they're going to finance the entire project and they're going to go for a loan for $6 million from the bank the bank isn't really going to give them the loan unless they have a 30-year
pilot cuz that's when their mortgage will be paid off in 30 years Mhm Okay So it's a it's timing matching It's a Yes It's complex but it works and it generally works to favor both parties and um you know we're taking advantage
of it and hope hope it'll continue There are other people that are interested in doing things The um Washington building which is on the corner of Wanuku Avenue and um Kfax it's a beige brick building
Uh it's an old old building It's uh probably 100 years old Um that one is going to have a project but that's not going to be a pilot right the guy's going to rebuild They're going to put a floor up above They're going to reframe inside to support it and they're going to fix it up and it's going to look a
whole lot nicer That'll help that corner and then the opposite side of the street from the ice cream station down to Laur There's another property owner that's looking to bring a project to uh to the town that will replace all of those buildings with some additional uh
redevelopment work And I think there was another one that was kind of like debating And then we had the one that hit work which was the big one that um would have been as you come down Kfax to the T intersection straight ahead of you
Uh that would have been a project with that 11tory uh building The 15 is first Yeah That's that's moved That's that's off the table So just so you know too I at another meeting that I was at last
night it was discussed that the owner of the Krowers yes is looking to put a second floor on top of that building Well that's what's waiting to come to the board What was that well that's what's on the agenda
second story on it years ago Uh he wants to put like 10 apartments up there or something just just across because where that alley separates they're two separate arms Okay Two separate owners
So only on the half that's the half So not all the way from the pizza place to the corner where the auto part store is Ronnie Lucas Okay He's never going to do anything with They should work out a deal They should Yep Here's another
problem area where you know it's illegal to have that kind of parking Now you know having direct access to a main road like that from every parking stall is frowned upon tremendously The telephone pole sticking out the parking garage there too as well
Well I don't know how they're going to build at $60,000 a spot The um the whole thing is they bring they bring part for consideration and it gets bounced around and if it's a redevelopment project it
gets bounced around more So we wait and see what comes and then we get our turn If I were to ask another question how many you you mentioned a bunch how many uh concurrent projects are going on uh
right now in the in the downtown What do you mean concurrence projects how many are gone concurrently yes Just one vaccine under construction That's it Well there's two There's two There's the old CGM building Oh right I
forgot CG it's forget about 10 years There's two I think that that also in the redevelopment like you like to see it happen fast but think about when all of these projects start
ending all at the same time That's going to be a big chunk of money that the burrow doesn't have anymore It's going to all go away almost all at the same time Yeah So you're getting 95% of something
right so if you're Oh you mean in 30 years whatever Wow But then that's your tax though It's not like they don't Yes But it's still not going to be as much cuz then you'll only get 25% of that Yes So it's not So those people 30 years from now have to be
thinking right y'all be in the senior housing No you'll be the chairman here Thanks Hey you know anytime I'm just waiting for the right
one to say I think I'm going to be sick tonight Thanks I'm glad you can smile on this board at least Okay we vote tonight Yes Everybody's got that was good answers All right Can I get a motion to please
motion second All in favor hi everybody Tim [Music] second wasn't